S14 E10: A Very Bad Person

[0] Wondry Plus subscribers can listen to something was wrong early and ad -free right now.

[1] Join Wondry Plus in the Wondry app or on Apple Podcasts.

[2] I'm Dan Tversky.

[3] In 2011, something strange began to happen at a high school in upstate New York.

[4] A mystery illness, bizarre symptoms, and spreading fast.

[5] What's the answer?

[6] And what do you do if they tell you it's all in your head?

[7] Hysterical.

[8] A new podcast from Wondry and Pineapple Street Studios.

[9] Binge all episodes of hysterical early and ad -free on Wondery Plus.

[10] This season, guests will be sharing their own testimony in regards to the criminal allegations against Jake Gravbrot.

[11] All persons are assumed to be innocent until proven guilty in a court of law.

[12] Guest experiences are their own and do not necessarily reflect the views of myself, something was wrong, or Wondery.

[13] At the time of this episode's airing, Jake Gravbrot has not responded to our request for comment.

[14] If you have been a victim of Jake Ravbrot or have a crime tip in relation to these matters, please visit Something Was Wrong .com slash 14 for more information.

[15] All names of minors involved in this story have been changed for their privacy and protection.

[16] Some survivor names have also been changed for anonymity and safety purposes.

[17] Season 14 covers a variety of mature topics that can be upsetting, such as emotional, physical, and sexual violence.

[18] Content warnings for each episode and resources for survivors can be found in the episode notes.

[19] The podcast or any linked materials should not be construed as medical advice, nor is the information a substitute for professional medical expertise or treatment.

[20] Thank you so much for listening.

[21] So we got really weird and he told me that something was going on, And he told me this over and over and over again that he couldn't tell me what it was because his lawyer told him not to speak on it.

[22] And so I'm thinking, I don't know, maybe it's a custody, but I mean, he's told me at this point of time he told me that he had two children.

[23] He told me all about his son and showed me pictures.

[24] And then he said he had a daughter that his wife or ex in California, I think it was, took from him and wouldn't let him see her.

[25] As far as I knew, he had two kids, one that he was able to.

[26] to see in one that he wasn't.

[27] So I'm thinking this could be anything.

[28] This could be custody.

[29] This could be child support.

[30] But he's telling me that his lawyer is telling him not to mention it.

[31] I'm just trying to be respectful of that.

[32] And I'm like, okay, I get it.

[33] I'm not going to press you for information.

[34] Here begins Jake and I going back and forth between texting and not texting, ghosting and not ghosting.

[35] I'm going to dinner with my friend.

[36] And Jake is texting me about this thing he's going through that he can't mention for illegal reasons and how hard it is on him.

[37] He asks me to come over and I'm like, I can't.

[38] I'm going to the hill to go to dinner with a good friend.

[39] And he asks me to come over and sleep with him, essentially.

[40] And I'm like, I don't have time.

[41] I'll be late to dinner.

[42] Then he starts telling me how he's so alone and this world is so terrible and he doesn't want to love.

[43] live anymore.

[44] And I'm like, geez, I can't ignore that.

[45] I was like, I'll leave now.

[46] I'm not quite ready, but if you need me to come over and sit with you because you're having suicidal thoughts, I'll rush over there and sit with you.

[47] He's like, well, how long will you be here?

[48] I was like, well, I mean, I only have 45 minutes.

[49] And he's like, well, that's not enough time.

[50] That's pointless.

[51] Don't even worry about it.

[52] And I was like, I'm so sorry.

[53] I don't know what to do right now.

[54] I don't know.

[55] How can I help you?

[56] You're saying that you don't want to live anymore.

[57] But come to find out later on, he's got hidden cameras in this apartment.

[58] We're looking back on it.

[59] He's trying to lure me into his apartment to have sex.

[60] He asked me to have sex with him.

[61] When I said I couldn't come over, he threatened suicide.

[62] Come to find out later on, he's been using that tactic for years to get women to do what he wants them to do.

[63] I didn't go.

[64] I met up with my friend and I'm glad I didn't go because I didn't know he had hidden cameras in his apartment.

[65] It was probably like a week or two weeks had gone by and we had basically talked our way from, but we shouldn't see each other because Jake can't give me what I want.

[66] We had talked to ourselves back to the point of like, okay, let's hang out again.

[67] So he's working a shift at the clockout lounge and I went and picked him up after work.

[68] I drove over and got him, brought him back to my place.

[69] We had sex again.

[70] Then the next day he left, he got ghosty again.

[71] And then it was more of the same.

[72] Like, I can't give you what you need.

[73] I'm not in a place right now.

[74] I'm really sorry.

[75] I don't want to hurt you.

[76] Blah, blah, blah, blah, blah.

[77] I'm going back and forth, back and forth.

[78] He's having such a hard time.

[79] And he's such bad news.

[80] It's obviously a really bad idea for me to continue seeing him.

[81] I only ever met up with him.

[82] It could have been three times.

[83] I'm pretty sure it's two times.

[84] And I was sitting there crying because I was just like, I don't know what to do.

[85] Eventually what I did was he would text me the textbook fuckboy stuff.

[86] We would have said, hey, we need to stop talking.

[87] This is bad.

[88] I'm going to get feelings for you.

[89] I told him one time I'm walking into the flames on purpose if I do this.

[90] I've been hurt so much recently.

[91] I don't want to do that.

[92] to myself.

[93] He'd be like, all right, I respect that.

[94] I don't want to hurt you, blah, blah, blah.

[95] And like two days would go by and I would get a text.

[96] I was like, hey, one of the times when he texted me that, I just replied with like, no, Jake, no, I'm not doing this.

[97] This is so unfair.

[98] You know exactly where I stand and you aren't able to provide any of that stuff for me. this has to stop.

[99] It finally stopped, but, I mean, it was only like four or five days since we had spoken when my coworker, I don't know why I remember it was a Tuesday, but she texted me and she just said, hey, Carrie, what's Jake's last name?

[100] And what does he look like?

[101] And I was like, oh, fuck.

[102] I told her and she was like, oh, I'm so sorry to be the one to tell you this, but she sent me the Instagram page.

[103] My jaw hit the floor.

[104] Hi, I'm Violet.

[105] Jake and I began talking on Instagram after the protests of 2020.

[106] And we continued talking platonically for about the next year or so, commented on each other's posts and in DMs, struck up conversation pretty easily.

[107] Things started getting flirty toward the fall of 2021.

[108] So there was probably like a year's worth of online social relationship before things start getting flirty.

[109] I don't typically meet men off the internet because I generally prefer to assess them out first in a group.

[110] This experience with Jake has kind of been difficult in the sense that I figured after a year or so of talking that my radar about him would have gone off already.

[111] So I felt okay with meeting him.

[112] We met around December of 2021.

[113] Things did get physical and as with others, From what I've read stories about him, I was surprised by the constant ask for consent.

[114] Just to be clear, I think that's a great thing to do.

[115] But it just felt different than like other interactions I've had with people.

[116] At the time, I figured that was maybe a neurodivergence thing.

[117] I'm neurodivergent too.

[118] So I really value direct and straightforward communication.

[119] Like, oh, that's probably part of his makeup as well.

[120] But looking back, I think it was happening in a very different.

[121] different way.

[122] I do think that his mind works differently from others, or like the majority, but not the way that I assumed at the time.

[123] Another thing that I noticed was that he didn't ask me a ton of questions about myself.

[124] If I mentioned something, we would talk about it, but things always looped back to him.

[125] I am a therapist.

[126] I'm not trained in sex therapy or sexual addiction therapy.

[127] There are other experts out there that know more than I do about how these personalities manifest and those dynamics of power and control.

[128] It's not necessarily my specialty.

[129] In that time of my life, I was thinking to myself, I don't think this person has a lot of emotional reciprocity.

[130] I was only open to maybe doing a casual relationship with him, because I could already tell it wasn't going to be emotionally supportive on a two -way street.

[131] What also sticks out to me, a flag I didn't know to look for before, was the very close patterning of communication he had with me. What I mean by that was, sure, we had similar interests, but it was kind of like being studied.

[132] And so that was the glue of our experience.

[133] However, he didn't necessarily want to know me. He wanted to learn.

[134] He wanted to learn.

[135] learn how I communicated, but he didn't necessarily want to know me as a person.

[136] And that's a nuance that I think I might take a closer look into if I come across it again, because that was very astute, I guess, as a way of figuring out how to victimize.

[137] I was ready to have a conversation, like a define the relationship kind of thing.

[138] And he posted something on Instagram.

[139] I recall he had posted what looked like suicidal ideation.

[140] I went to talk to him about it to check to see if he was safe and if he had resources.

[141] What I feel like I can speak to is the experience of emotional abuse and like knowledge of DV and then also how Jake would use suicide or like how he would use looping people into that topic basically.

[142] I will never ever declare whether someone's suicidal ideation is valid or not.

[143] That's not in my court at all.

[144] But looking back, the night we had that conversation, it felt different than any other time I've sat with someone who's been suicidal.

[145] Whether it's friends or clients, it's not something I'm uncomfortable being with.

[146] I mean, I'm uncomfortable in the sense that it's really difficult to see someone in pain.

[147] But the way that he spoke to me when I offered support was it felt like, like he wanted to make me feel viscerally bad.

[148] And there's something about emotional abuse to that involves requiring someone else to hold all of your feelings and an effort to actually make the other person essentially feel like shit.

[149] It took me a while to put my finger on that because I, again, I never want to invalidate someone's experience, but it felt like he was angry.

[150] That was different than any other time I've sat with someone.

[151] going through those thoughts.

[152] I don't know if I'll really be able to make sense of it, but I can see in other people's stories, how that was used and how people might have been really vulnerable to that tactic, if you will.

[153] In hindsight, after seeing everyone's stories, I was like, that's why it felt different.

[154] Like, but it was less about reaching for support and more about asking someone else to own the feeling.

[155] Who's to say, like, why he does it?

[156] I don't know his story.

[157] I don't know where this all comes from.

[158] I didn't go into talking with him as a therapist.

[159] So I don't know about why he does what he does.

[160] But this is also all to say, like, no one didn't do their due diligence.

[161] I feel like I do have a few more cues to go from just having the professional experience that I do.

[162] And it's still slipped by me. That's a weird place to be too for myself because I don't want to arrive at the conclusion where we feel like this will always happen no matter what.

[163] But I do want to validate that no one who encountered him was being unintelligent or careless.

[164] He's just very, very good at what he does.

[165] I noticed after my conversation with him, I think it was like the next day or two, his Instagram, he took everything down.

[166] And me, not knowing what happened was like, oh my gosh, did he die?

[167] That was where my brain went.

[168] I was really concerned.

[169] I, for the next couple days kept poking around and eventually found the Instagram page of people posting stories of their experiences with him.

[170] I found it maybe like one or two months into it existing.

[171] It was a very overwhelming experience.

[172] I remember that week just feeling so sick to my stomach, having emotional whirlwind of going from worrying if someone was dying to wondering if I was safe, the full gamut of experience really.

[173] I definitely tried to read as much as I could to understand.

[174] I also was immediately like, yes, of course these things have happened.

[175] The stories check out.

[176] I guess that's when all the hindsight comes in, all of the patterns really manifest through people's stories.

[177] I think I'm probably still recovering from that week in the sense that it takes a long time to make meaning out of all that.

[178] I won't know whether he recorded this or not.

[179] I'm just going to assume that he did, given that I do recall being in his apartment and in a different room than him for several minutes, enough time to set up a camera.

[180] So that really bothers me that that's probably out there.

[181] But in terms of physical violence, I feel very lucky that I didn't experience that.

[182] However, my experience still left me with a lot of trauma in the sense that my nervous system cues.

[183] didn't go off, like as a person with former trauma, former sexual assault, and also living as someone who's not a man in this world, like your body learns to recognize cues and respond to them to seek safety.

[184] Usually, I know when I'm in danger when I'm around a man, and those didn't go off with Jake.

[185] So that's part of the trauma for me is that come to find out that he's sexually abused so many people and I didn't, my body didn't tell me that I wasn't safe.

[186] So for me, my relationship with myself is something that I'm working on repairing and also my perspective of the world.

[187] I'm working on repairing because I don't want to distrust everyone I meet.

[188] I guess that speaks to the type of trauma that someone like Jake can leave behind is that even even if you're not physically assaulted, there can be still like a style of sexual abuse in, I guess, that nuance.

[189] Just the volume, the volume of stories, I think that's what makes this different than maybe other experiences I've had with men who aren't safe.

[190] I haven't encountered this level of maybe sexual addiction or sexual abuse.

[191] And also the emotional level, like it was just very excited.

[192] I recall discussing and direct messages with them how smart he is.

[193] He must have been so practiced at this.

[194] Also thinking about the amount of time, considering like how many people were in his sphere.

[195] I can't even imagine how much time and effort would be spent talking to all of those women.

[196] There must have been multiple people a day at that rate.

[197] So I was just very astounded that he was able to do that and able to someone.

[198] what keep his story straight enough, especially when he would call himself a lone wolf and be like, oh, I'm not on my own.

[199] And I'm like, yeah, I'm an introvert too.

[200] Like, I love my own time, but that's not a lot of alone time.

[201] So it's not funny, but it doesn't check out.

[202] Generally, we think of men in power get away with things for a long time by sheer economic or social power.

[203] But it also happens in these spaces that are trying to dismantle power.

[204] And that's really upsetting that someone can use a social cause as cover for their behavior when they're using the same exact mechanisms of patriarchy and spaces that are supposedly trying to dismantle that.

[205] The takeaway with that is that social justice spaces are not immune to the same societal wounds that we see in any other context.

[206] I know that was disappointing for me, but also a great reality check when we do consider how we are, I guess, how we participate in activism and what we're watching for.

[207] Like, are we continuing to ask the same questions of our comrades, if you will, that we are of society at large?

[208] I still find myself in the space of how do I make meaning out of this.

[209] That's part of it.

[210] Post trauma, that's one of the steps is how do we make meaning?

[211] If my perspective or my narrative can resonate or help someone make sense of things, that helps me feel like there was some amount of meaning made.

[212] On my part, sharing my story, too, helps me feel like I brought some amount.

[213] amount of closure to that season.

[214] It's not like I'm looking to talk to him for closure, so at least my story was heard.

[215] I think with time, we do make sense of these things or at least come to, like, trust ourselves again and find hope.

[216] So I'm glad for any amount of impact it can have, and that's part of why I'm here today.

[217] She struck him with her motor vehicle.

[218] She had been under the influence and she left him there.

[219] In January 2022, local woman Karen Reed was implicated in the mysterious death of her boyfriend, Boston police officer John O 'Keefe.

[220] It was alleged that after an innocent night out for drinks with friends, Karen and John got into a lover's quarrel en route to the next location.

[221] What happens next depends on who you ask.

[222] Was it a crime of passion?

[223] If you believe the prosecution, it's because the evidence was so compelling.

[224] This was clearly an intentional act.

[225] And his cause of death was blunt force trauma with hypothermia.

[226] Or a corrupt police cover -up.

[227] If you believe the defense theory, however, this was all a cover -up to prevent one of their own from going down.

[228] Everyone had an opinion.

[229] And after the 10 -week trial, the jury could not come to a unanimous decision.

[230] To end in a mistrial, it's just a confirmation of just how complicated this case is.

[231] Law and crime presents the most in -depth analysis to date of the sensational case in Karen.

[232] You can listen to Karen exclusively with Wondry Plus.

[233] Join Wondry Plus in the Wondry app, Apple Podcasts, or Spotify.

[234] I'm Dan Taberski.

[235] In 2011, something strange began to happen at the high school in Leroy, New York.

[236] I was like at my locker and she came up to me and she was like stuttering super bad.

[237] I'm like, stop fucking around.

[238] She's like, I can't.

[239] A mystery illness, bizarre symptoms and spreading fast.

[240] It's like doubling and tripling and it's all these girls.

[241] With a diagnosis, the state tried to keep.

[242] on the download.

[243] Everybody thought I was holding something back.

[244] Well, you were holding something back.

[245] Intentionally.

[246] Yeah, yeah.

[247] Well, yeah.

[248] No, it's hysteria.

[249] It's all in your head.

[250] It's not physical.

[251] Oh, my gosh.

[252] You're exaggerating.

[253] Is this the largest mass hysteria since the witches of Salem?

[254] Or is it something else entirely?

[255] Something's wrong here.

[256] Something's not right.

[257] Leroy was the new date line and everyone was trying to solve the murder.

[258] A new limited series from Wondery and Pineapple Street Studios, Hysterical.

[259] Follow Hysterical on the one.

[260] Wondery app or wherever you get your podcasts.

[261] You can binge all episodes of hysterical early and ad free right now by joining Wondry Plus.

[262] Once we all started sharing the messages were coming in pretty consistently.

[263] We were getting a lot of people following the page.

[264] March of 22.

[265] We were speaking to lots of different women and they were coming forward and telling us different things.

[266] And one of the things that somebody came forward and she said that Jake wasn't responding to her after they slept together and so she thought he was ghosting her type of thing and then he said to her he basically lashed out at her and was like how dare you come at me like that my daughter just died and I had to come to California okay so here we go I only have part of this message because our Instagram account was deleted and so we only have access to what we took screenshots of And so this is from somebody that wanted to remain anonymous, but she said she's fine with me sharing her story.

[267] She said that she was reaching out to him because they would go through long periods of no communication.

[268] And she was reaching out.

[269] He was ignoring her.

[270] And she was like, okay, I guess you're ghosting me. And then he basically told her that he had rushed to California because his daughter had died.

[271] She said, haven't been in touch in so long.

[272] He was dealing with the fallout of his divorce.

[273] I'm also divorced.

[274] He actually told me that his daughter, Emerson, had died.

[275] And that's why he went through these long periods of no communication.

[276] Oh my gosh, I feel sick.

[277] I jumped in and said, oh my gosh, I'm so sorry to jump in.

[278] There are four of us on this account.

[279] We'll tell you who you're talking to, so it's not too confusing.

[280] But this is Emerson's mom, Kaylin.

[281] Wow.

[282] Right when I think that nothing will surprise me, I can't believe he said that my daughter was dead.

[283] And he used it as a reason of why he wasn't being a good communicator.

[284] I'm so sorry.

[285] All of this is probably a big shock.

[286] And she said, we spent time together the day before he left for a Zion trip, which I'm pretty sure he went to Zion with Sarah.

[287] I came to read today, I was not the only one.

[288] And she said, uh, Kaelin, he told me that he had to rush to California because his daughter had died.

[289] I can't believe this.

[290] I thought that I had heard it all, and that was like, holy shit.

[291] Because all of it is really bad and disgusting, and hearing about the women and stuff is like heartbreaking.

[292] This is using Emerson in a new way, right?

[293] He's using her as a way to manipulate this other woman into feeling bad that she was reaching out to him.

[294] I'm sure she wasn't pushy, but she was getting irritated with his poor communication and then he used my daughter dying as a reason for his poor communication, which is like I can't imagine any parent doing anything like that.

[295] In what world would you ever say that about your kid?

[296] I just, I would never.

[297] I could never even put that out in the world.

[298] It's pretty upsetting to say the least.

[299] At that point, we all were kind of like, I think this is a lot worse than what we even think.

[300] I don't think this is just some dirtbag guy that sleeps with a lot of women.

[301] And I think this guy, there is something seriously, seriously dangerous here.

[302] I don't know one parent that even wants to talk about or think about their child dying.

[303] And here's this piece of shit, throwing it out there as a way to manipulate a woman.

[304] I still to this day can't wrap my head around it.

[305] I don't know how to even process that because I've never encountered someone that would be capable of doing that.

[306] I don't know what it means other than it's evil and it shows he's heartless.

[307] After getting her message, this is the other one, which I think he says this to more than one woman, you owe me. I'll read what I have.

[308] I said, we're finding out that there are so many women with similar experiences and we wanted to know if you'd be willing to share your story or experience anonymously.

[309] We could remove any details.

[310] We'll send it back to you for permission.

[311] And she said, hi, you aren't a bother.

[312] Let me think about this.

[313] I said, absolutely thank you.

[314] She said, you can share my story, but I would like to prove it before it's posted.

[315] I need to add this.

[316] When I say he pressured me to have sex, I mean he literally would beg me and cry.

[317] I remember once telling him I don't want to at least 10 times, and he wouldn't take that for an answer.

[318] He pushed my head down and said things about how I owed him.

[319] Afterwards, he refused to cuddle and then wouldn't walk me to my car at 3 a .m. in downtown Seattle.

[320] The next day, he texted me telling me how beautiful I am and asked me for shower pictures so he could come to me again before work, I didn't reply and he blocked me on Instagram and his phone as punishment.

[321] When we got that message, I was like, oh my gosh.

[322] Like it just, he is a very bad person.

[323] He is a very bad person.

[324] And the fact that she's like a young, very attractive young lady, she's in her early 20s.

[325] She's built similar to me, like kind of petite.

[326] But, he let her leave his apartment at 3 a .m. and didn't walk her out to her car when he talks about how rough his neighborhood was.

[327] And he did not, would not take no for an answer.

[328] And I think that when she, you know, she says he sexually abused me. And I was like, I like, what does that mean?

[329] But I didn't want to ask her especially because, especially with trauma, like, it's like, oh, could you tell me a little bit more about your terrible experience.

[330] I didn't want to pry and I just wanted her to share what she felt comfortable.

[331] And her sharing that with me, I was so sad for her.

[332] I just wanted to hug her.

[333] And I, you know, I was 24 when I met him, not equipped to handle who he was.

[334] I had never experienced anyone like him ever.

[335] Mimi was also 24 when.

[336] when they met, and this person was also 24, but like, you know, over 15 years later.

[337] So, I mean, it just made me really sad for her because I feel like he took something from her that she didn't want to give him.

[338] Absolutely.

[339] And that is sexual abuse.

[340] That is sexual assault.

[341] Yes.

[342] If you are afraid of what will happen because you say no. Right.

[343] That is not consent.

[344] Right.

[345] I don't think I said what Jake's response was.

[346] to me though.

[347] What?

[348] No, I didn't know that.

[349] After the Instagram came out, did he text you?

[350] Yeah, well, February, so this is of 2022.

[351] On the 24th, I said, so I've been in contact with the dentist and we need to move forward getting Emerson's next round of braces as it's medically necessary.

[352] I said they allow payments, as you know.

[353] I have contacted you on 2 -8 -217 and now on today's 8 -24.

[354] or I have not received a response or a sufficient response in regards to this matter.

[355] For our parenting plan, you agreed to pay 60 % of medical expenses and your lack of response and not contacting the dentist or following through with your commitment to pay puts you in contempt.

[356] And he said, Then have them send me a bill in installments as they should be doing anyways and leave me alone.

[357] You and your little group of friends are so horribly dammed.

[358] And there's a good reason why I have zero desire to respond to you or anyone related to you.

[359] Also, related to contempt, you are supposed to provide notification of a move, of a school district, etc. Yet you never do that.

[360] So please spare me your bullshit.

[361] I'm blocking you from any further contact via text message, as I never want to hear from you ever again.

[362] I said, that's not how it works.

[363] You need to call them.

[364] and set up a payment plan before we can move forward with treatment.

[365] And then that message went through.

[366] And then on the 30th, I said, you told somebody Emerson was dead.

[367] What in the world is wrong with you?

[368] You're so much worse of a person than I thought possible.

[369] Do you ever even think about how your lies would affect others?

[370] How hard is it just to be honest?

[371] I said, is it that it's not as much fun that way?

[372] You like going through life, lying and deceiving people?

[373] This is next level even for you.

[374] you.

[375] And that did not go through.

[376] So he has me blocked.

[377] When the Instagram page came out, my husband thought maybe it was a little bit too much for me. Not in the sense of like it was upsetting me. Well, it was upsetting me. It was upsetting me because we had all these women coming forward and I felt so bad that I didn't stop it at me. I wanted to apologize for him to them, for his bad behavior.

[378] That's not my apology to make, but I'm sorry that happened to them and I'm sorry that I wasn't able to protect them.

[379] I'm doing my best now to protect women in the future from him.

[380] But as far as my role in the Instagram page, a lot of it was talking to these women that were coming forward and helping them make sense of things and letting them know that this is not their fault.

[381] This is really nothing to do with them and everything to do with him.

[382] It was hard because I was sad for them.

[383] And I was sad that it was still happening.

[384] I was sad that he hadn't changed.

[385] I was sad for the potential for Emerson to have a relationship with him in the future.

[386] Like there's no chance of that ever happening now, maybe after she's 18 or something.

[387] But right now as it stands, Emerson wants nothing to do with him.

[388] and I've told her, I don't want her listening to the podcast.

[389] She has access to the internet, so she could potentially.

[390] But I've really explained to her, this is not things you want to hear about your parents or me specifically.

[391] I don't want her to know that he would film me while we were having sex without my permission.

[392] I don't want her to know that he was emotionally, financially, and sexually abusive.

[393] She already knows enough in what she's encountered with him that I really just don't want her knowing.

[394] The Instagram page, it was created in a way to raise awareness and to protect other women.

[395] But then when all the messages started flooding in, it was like, holy shit, it had taken on like a whole other life.

[396] It definitely got much bigger than we have.

[397] even anticipated.

[398] I think by the end, it was like over a thousand people followed.

[399] So like February, March, April, May, June, July, it was down?

[400] Or was it August?

[401] Do you remember?

[402] God, it's only been like two or three weeks since that happened.

[403] Can you believe that?

[404] August.

[405] So seven months.

[406] But really, we weren't posting all that much.

[407] It was like, if you want to share your story, we'll share your story.

[408] You can be anonymous.

[409] You cannot be.

[410] We're good with whatever.

[411] If you don't want to share it all and you just want to tell us, like, that's fine too.

[412] During Sarah's timeline, there's several women that overlap with her time frame.

[413] Let's see.

[414] One, two, three, four, five, six, seven, eight, nine, ten, eleven, twelve.

[415] There are 12 people that overlap Sarah that we know of.

[416] That doesn't include Mimi.

[417] because I think she overlaps Sarah as well.

[418] All during COVID, and I'm sure that Sarah will get into it, but he's like, I hope you never have to like know what it feels like to be cheated on.

[419] And I would never cheat on you.

[420] Early on in our relationship, he offered to share his location with me. He said that he was happy to do it to put my mind at ease when he was at protests and with us living in two different cities.

[421] He did a lot of little things like this that I felt were super considerate and gestures of good faith.

[422] I was naive enough to think that there was no way that this man was out and about at different women's apartments in homes when I had his location the whole time.

[423] And this is where I think him having multiple phones really came into play.

[424] I knew of two phones.

[425] I think that he had a third at some point, too.

[426] I was told very little about why he had multiple phones.

[427] After connecting with Kayla and I learned that he would leave his iPad at home when they were together, so his location would always show that he was there.

[428] So that's how I concluded that he probably used the phone.

[429] in the exact same way.

[430] I downloaded Tinder to look for him on there, and after not finding anything, I deleted the app or maybe forgot about it until maybe a month or so later.

[431] We had been arguing one day.

[432] He was picking fights over little things, and I think it was just because I was already at the point where I was pulling away from the relationship, and he brought up the fact that his coworker apparently found my Tinder profile when I was up there, and then he accused me of cheating and made it clear that if I wanted to be on dating apps and see other people.

[433] He wasn't going to compete with anyone for me. I had my doubts if it was really his coworker or him that found my profile to begin with and why he chose to sit on this information for so long.

[434] It had already been like maybe a month before he even decided to bring it up.

[435] It wasn't adding up to me, but I knew that I was also wrong here.

[436] He had screenshots of my profile and everything.

[437] I was using a picture he took of me, so there wasn't really any denying it.

[438] I didn't want to have to explain that I was actually on there looking for him.

[439] We ended up talking it out and he made a pretty big deal about choosing to believe me that I wasn't cheating on him and said that I hadn't given him any reason to doubt me this far, so we moved on from that whole incident until maybe a few weeks later.

[440] When I confronted him about basically denying the fact that he had a girlfriend on social media and those DMs that I mentioned between my friend and him, that's when he reminded me that he gave me the benefit of the doubt with the Tinder situation and why could I not extend him that same grief?

[441] At that time, that made me feel really conflicted about what he was telling me and what I knew on my gut to be true.

[442] You know, hindsight is 2020.

[443] And now I know that him waiting to bring up the Tinder profile and basically hanging it over my head the way he did was just all to manipulate me. He was very skilled at that and making me question my reality.

[444] And I think that that is such a critical part of understanding why people stay in these kind of relationships and why it's so difficult to get out of.

[445] When women would reach out to us, we always would ask, how can we support you?

[446] And we never tried to push anyone into sharing their story.

[447] The thing that struck me so much was it just made me so mad.

[448] These women were all so beautiful and smart.

[449] And with each one, I got madder and matter that he had the audacity to treat these women that are so honestly above him in my eyes, they're good people and they're intelligent.

[450] They're all really strong, beautiful people.

[451] He would tell one woman, oh, I only have a son, and he's 18, and I'm free to do whatever now.

[452] And he'd tell other women, like, I have two daughters and one son.

[453] And then I don't think anyone knew about all four kids.

[454] A lot of people knew about Bowie and Emerson, but did not know about the other two.

[455] And some people knew about just Emerson and not the rest of them.

[456] It was really strange.

[457] One thing that I really appreciated about all the women that would reach out, they would say, like, okay, well, first of all, this is what he told me. So we would be able to kind of gauge and try and make sense of it.

[458] We started trying to, like, make a timeline, and it just got so confusing because there's so much overlap with all these women that I remember saying to Kalin, if this wasn't so disgusting, it's almost impressive.

[459] I don't know how he does this.

[460] I don't know how he has this many people.

[461] sometimes eight to ten women that he's entertaining and trying to date all at one time.

[462] And I'm not talking, just sleeping with them.

[463] Like he's carrying on with them, taking them on dates and buying them drinks and trying to get all these women to, like, go on trips with him.

[464] I don't know when he even has time to sleep or how he can keep it all straight, especially with the fact that he doesn't tell all of them the same story.

[465] I don't know how he's managed to get this far.

[466] There were even a couple women that it seemed like he combined Mimi and Kaelin into the same person, which is really bizarre.

[467] Once Jake found that Instagram, he deactivated his.

[468] A lot of who we followed on the page were people that he was associated with professionally that we wanted them to see, like, this is what you're supporting.

[469] And we had so many of them reach out, like bands and different artists that had reached out to say, I want you to know I will never work with him again, like, this is disgusting.

[470] I cannot believe that I ever associated with this person and had a couple more that reached out and told us stories of how unprofessional he was.

[471] We wouldn't have worked with him again after our bad experience with him, but our hearts are with you and we're supportive of you along those lines.

[472] The number one concern, absolutely, that came from all of the women that we saw over and over again was the fear that they were filmed.

[473] And I think all you can really do is be there and try and support them.

[474] I know that we had one girl that reached out to us and she said that her friend was spiraling, thinking she had been in his apartment multiple times.

[475] And she's like, she thinks that she was recorded and she's freaking out and what can we do?

[476] She wants to go to the police.

[477] And I was the one I think that talked to her and I encouraged her to go to the police and I said, will you let us know if she does if there's a contact, any contact information because there's other women and I will get them all in contact with the same person.

[478] But I don't think that went anywhere.

[479] We never heard back from that girl.

[480] And I think we did actually reach back out to her and I don't think she responded.

[481] So I don't know, I don't know what happened with that piece of it.

[482] There's probably so many that don't even know the Instagram page existed.

[483] Do you remember who reached out to me first?

[484] Kalen submitted her story through the website, right?

[485] And then somebody started tagging me from y 'all's Instagram.

[486] It would have been Kalen because she knew the show.

[487] And she for years had been, like, you have to listen to her show.

[488] It's like so crazy how similar it is.

[489] She kept telling me like, you've got to listen to season one.

[490] Season one, there's so many similarities.

[491] It's mind -blowing how cookie cutter these people are.

[492] And so, yeah, she had tagged you.

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[503] These women started coming forward saying, I thought he was safe because of where he worked.

[504] I thought he was safe because of the protest community.

[505] I thought he was safe because he was an ally.

[506] There were so many women saying they thought he was safe based upon his job at Converge.

[507] And that's when I was like, yeah, they are giving him a platform to have access to all these other women.

[508] They helped him get his passport.

[509] to go to Belize, which the passport is what we had on him to get him to pay down his child support.

[510] They basically said he has a new job, and he has to have this for his job.

[511] And so they gave it to him.

[512] I knew about him working for Converge probably a year before the Instagram came to life.

[513] Kaelin and I are still struggling with the child support issue or lack thereof, and he's actually had his case referred to the prosecutor's office at this point because he just refuses to pay otherwise.

[514] And there was an issue where I think when the prosecutor's office first took the child support case for non -payment, and they said their other little bargaining chip was he would not be allowed to get his passport back until he was current on his back child support.

[515] And knowing Jake and knowing the way that he travels, we both knew that that was a big thing.

[516] That that was just going to be the one way that we might ever see the money that he owes us would be the fact that he wants his passport back because he wants to be able to travel internationally.

[517] I knew that he was working for converge because we got a letter from the prosecutor saying that they had given his passport back to him because he needed it for a new job.

[518] And I remember talking to Kaylin confused because this was in, I believe this letter that we got from the prosecutor was in August of 2021.

[519] I didn't really have this great feeling about converge, but like I also didn't want my feelings to get in the way of my judgment on how we navigate the situation with the Instagram and whether or not to bring convergence to the mix.

[520] People kept asking us, are you going to reach out to his?

[521] employer?

[522] Are you going to reach out to Converge Media?

[523] And I think at the very beginning, we had the same answer was, no, we're not trying to take away his ability to earn money or to have a job.

[524] We're just trying to put our stories out there.

[525] So if there are women that are confused or trying to figure him out or need a warrant, you know, whatever it was.

[526] That's the direction that we were trying to go.

[527] So we had no intention of reaching out to Converge at any point until we started getting stories from women and the common theme in all of them was I thought he was safe.

[528] I came to follow him through Converge Media and I assumed that he was safe.

[529] I assumed that this media company that I respect and that I feel so strongly for like the message that they stand for, it was the same story over and over again of women saying I thought he was safe because of his affiliation with Converge.

[530] After you get so many of those, you start to kind of see, okay, he's completely using his platform with this company to prey on women in the community.

[531] And it's disgusting.

[532] At that point, right when we were starting to kind of like piece all of this together and figure all of it out is when John reached out to us and shared his point of view with all of it.

[533] Hi, my name is John.

[534] I met Converged through the 2020 protests in Seattle.

[535] In May of 2020, all the schools had gone remote.

[536] I have a now 12 -year -old daughter.

[537] And so I actually took a couple months off of work to take my daughter, basically go road trip around the country.

[538] We have an air stream.

[539] She was doing remote work.

[540] And so we decided to do this thing called Dad School.

[541] We had this huge trip planned.

[542] We were going to travel around the country, visiting friends very socially distanced, but being able to go and actually see people in person.

[543] I was actually out of town when all the protests started in Seattle.

[544] We were, I think, in St. Louis, when friends started messaging me, telling me what was going on in Seattle and sending me pictures of my loft being boarded up by the building management.

[545] I decided that I was just going to leave my truck trailer the airport and fly back to Seattle because my loft was in a really unique position.

[546] I have the only unit in the building that has its own private entrance on the Pine, which happened to be right behind the police barricade.

[547] In Seattle, there were tens of thousands of people protesting.

[548] Police put up a barricade at 11th in Pine to keep anybody from walking past the police precinct.

[549] And my front door happens to be between the barricade and the police precinct.

[550] So it's this big, open studio.

[551] It's a really ideal space for a media company to cover something that's literally happening outside the door.

[552] So I flew back from Nashville and found Omari on the plane because my goal is to find a local black journalist that I could give my space to while I finished my road trip.

[553] I reached out to Omari, showed them the space once we got back, gave them the keys, and then left for the rest of the month.

[554] I think that was early June and then Converge stayed in my place until early August.

[555] We didn't know it was going to last along at the very beginning, but it made sense for them to stay.

[556] So I got back from my road trip early, early morning on July 1st.

[557] And so my experience with Converge is mostly just about a month.

[558] From the time that I got back, that would be the first day that I met Jake until early August when Converge moved out.

[559] They were using it every day for the daily show.

[560] They were also recording other segments there, having meetings, the chief of police, chief of fire.

[561] Because of the location and Omari's involvement in covering the protests, he had a lot of high -level city employees, as well as protest organizers, meet at the space.

[562] So it was kind of this neutral ground where they were able to have some of these conversations and even do some negotiation between protest organizers and city officials.

[563] I would say all but a couple of nights during that, Omari, and usually someone else would be staying the night because there would be protests and stuff happening until the early hours of the morning.

[564] So it was just easier for them to sleep over at my place, people would sleep on the couch and my daughter's bed, wherever they could find.

[565] And within a few hours of me getting back, the police actually came and cleared the entire few block radius.

[566] I got back for my road trip and walked in the door and converges there.

[567] I think it was Omari, Jake, Bobby, and Eric.

[568] I had met Bobby and Omari, obviously, before.

[569] I hadn't met Jake or Eric yet.

[570] Pretty quickly, everyone was putting on their bulletproof vests to go cover the police sweeping the entire chop area.

[571] It wasn't a lot of discussion when I first met Jake.

[572] He wasn't the most friendly guy.

[573] He ignored me most of the time.

[574] Within a few days, he met some girl and brought her around, and I was nice to her because he brought her to my house.

[575] I'm nice to everybody.

[576] But I think he thought I was flirting with her and got really weird to the point that he would openly ignore me in front of people.

[577] Like, I'd ask a question, and he could obviously hear me, but would ignore me. So I'd have to be like, hey, Eric, can you have to be like, hey, Eric, can you asked Jake, XYZ.

[578] It was all immature and dumb.

[579] But I tried to win Jake over.

[580] He does some great photography.

[581] And I actually had started planning to do an entire gallery at my space.

[582] Once Converge moved out, we were going to do an art gallery to show off Jake and Eric's work.

[583] Eric is a photographer too.

[584] So I actually fronted the money to get a bunch of Jake's images printed.

[585] We have a video of him opening one and it was like a $2 ,000 print.

[586] Huge, beautifully printed.

[587] I tried to win Jake over and be super nice to him.

[588] When it came time to do the gallery, Jake and Eric hadn't sent me all the photos yet.

[589] And so we weren't able to do the gallery.

[590] Logistically, I couldn't get all the prints printed in time because there were still a few more that we needed to get printed.

[591] When I told Jake that we had to reschedule the show, he was pissed.

[592] He blew up, threatened me. Everything changed at that point.

[593] There's one other time that we had an interaction on the night of the election.

[594] Converge sent Bobby, who was working at Converge at the time, to cover election night from Capitol Hill.

[595] He set up right in front of my place.

[596] I guess Jake was supposed to work with him.

[597] And so when Jake came up and saw that Bobby had set up in front of my place, me and a couple other people were out there, he flipped into a rage.

[598] He was pissed off at me, pissed off at Bobby, that Bobby would betray him by setting up in front of his sworn enemy's house or something.

[599] It was just ridiculous.

[600] He started calling me an art thief.

[601] He says that I stole his prints, and I'm like, you can have them anytime you want as long as you pay for him.

[602] I put out thousands of dollars to get these printed.

[603] I'm more than happy to give them to you if you pay for him, which he declined to do.

[604] Then he's like, we'll just throw them away.

[605] I don't give you permission to have them.

[606] I'm like, that's not really how it works.

[607] He got into his head that I stole, his artwork, which obviously not.

[608] He was mad.

[609] I mean, he threatened to assault me and Bobby in front of witnesses.

[610] He was definitely flipping out that night.

[611] And since then, I haven't had any contact with him.

[612] Bobby supposedly told Omari about the whole thing.

[613] I stayed out of it.

[614] Jake especially is so insignificant to me. I don't mean to diminish the pain that he's caused to other people.

[615] I just, I had no emotional involvement in him.

[616] I don't care if he's mad at me. He just doesn't matter, but he doesn't intimidate me at all.

[617] A few people know what happened with Jake threatening me and stuff.

[618] I hadn't made public any of my beef with them.

[619] But once somebody sent me the account on Instagram, then I started to feel more morally obligated to call it out.

[620] Because I had given Converge and through Converge Jake, such a platform with my space, I felt like because Converge wasn't doing anything to address it, that I felt a responsibility to warn the protest community and to call Converge Out and Jake out.

[621] What was the cause of your falling out with Omari?

[622] Was that related to Jake?

[623] I wouldn't even say Omari and I had a falling out.

[624] During the time they were there, we had actually started planning on me working with Converge and extending my two -month time off.

[625] I was going to take a full year and basically helped them build the company.

[626] But as time went on and I started seeing how Omari was making business decisions, I knew it wasn't going to be a very sustainable business model.

[627] From the business side, I couldn't commit to doing the work.

[628] I think most of the conflict that I have with Omari is not over anything specific.

[629] I think it's more, from my perspective, Converged dropped to me after they moved out.

[630] They were donated in another space in Pioneer Square.

[631] they moved over.

[632] And after that, I was just kind of long forgotten.

[633] It wasn't that big of a deal.

[634] The only thing that really bothered me with Omari was he did an interview once.

[635] And when he was explaining how they ended up having a studio space in Capitol Hill, he said something like one of his fans donated the space and then fled the chaos.

[636] And I felt like that was a really unfair and inaccurate description of what I had done, because I literally flew back.

[637] to the chaos to find Omari, who was a stranger to me at the time, to give him my space, that bothered me. That's the only beast that I have with Omari, where he told some of Jake's victims that I got them riled up and that I had an axe to grind with Omari.

[638] But also, Jake is great at manipulating people.

[639] But I think going our separate ways, I think it gave Jake probably an opportunity to turn, maybe turning Omari against me isn't the right word, but just to draw lines in the sand as to who was on what side?

[640] What was your reaction when you saw the Instagram page and learned more about Jake's history?

[641] Oh, it all fit.

[642] I wasn't in the least bit surprised.

[643] I tried to tell Marley that he was a violent person.

[644] I knew that he was a violent person.

[645] The only thing that surprised me was that there were so many women because to me, like, he's just not an attracted dude.

[646] I'm not attracted to men, but him especially like he just seems, I don't know, like a loser.

[647] I don't understand how he was able to find so many women.

[648] In early March, the Converged CEO, this guy named Nick that most people don't know about, he's, I guess, Omari's silent partner.

[649] I checked Nick because I knew I didn't have a relationship with Omari.

[650] It was just weird.

[651] And so I just text Nick to ask him if he knew what was going on and send him some of the posts.

[652] It was the next day that Converge supposedly cut ties with Jake.

[653] But I was very clear with Nick.

[654] I'm like, I really think Omari needs to come out with a public statement.

[655] I was pretty specific.

[656] I'm like, in my mind, the major fault of Converge was not doing background checks with people before hiring them and before sending them out into the community to represent Converge.

[657] Like, you really should be doing background checks and you really need to be more aware and respond better to people that are trying to tell you that something is going on.

[658] Nick agreed with me and said that Converge was going to put out a statement pretty quickly.

[659] And then the next time I had talked to Nick, he said that Omari didn't want to do a statement and that it wasn't going to happen.

[660] So I reiterated they really do need to get ahead of it.

[661] Because I also should clarify, I think Converge is doing a lot of really great things.

[662] And part of my motivation for this whole thing was to protect Converge from mishandling the entire situation so badly.

[663] It actually took a lot of social media pressure to get Converged to even make that first statement, which was really a non -statement.

[664] The following public statement was posted by Converge media on March 16th, 2002.

[665] Statement regarding Jake Ravbrot.

[666] The culture at Converge is centered around uplifting the voices of black women, telling their untold stories and creating an industry that does not exclude them.

[667] With women at the center of our values, Converge Media does not enable nor tolerate actions of abuse, distress, or disrespect towards women of any kind.

[668] Converge Media severed its relationship with Jake Gravbrot on March 2, 2022, after allegations were brought to our attention by an individual who approached Converge Media directly with concerns.

[669] This is not something Converge Media is taking lightly, and the issue is now under internal investigation at the moment.

[670] And because of that, we have no additional comment on it at this time, but we will be commenting when it's complete.

[671] We want and encourage any community members to reach out to us directly, either via email, info at where we converge .com, or the contact form on our website.

[672] It went over a month.

[673] Carly was reaching out pretty regularly, emailing them and saying like, hey, what's up with this?

[674] Like, when are you guys going to do what you said?

[675] And they said, oh, it should be out early June.

[676] I think that they put that in a comment as well on the post.

[677] Nothing came forward.

[678] So then I reached out through the proper channels and message them through the email.

[679] I introduced myself.

[680] I asked if they were going to give the community an update.

[681] And then Omari said that we could have a conversation.

[682] During the height of where so many people were contacting them about Jake, they started, at least in one post, changing his name to make it look like it was a different photographer.

[683] They credited whatever it was that they were posting that was his footage.

[684] They credited Jack Gravbert.

[685] So it was just like changed a little bit.

[686] There was a lot of anger, especially from the protest community within Seattle, there was a lot of anger with women that felt they were trying to sweep it under the rug.

[687] I wanted them to do the right thing.

[688] It had nothing to do with me. It had nothing to do with my daughter.

[689] It had nothing to do with his past bad behavior.

[690] It had everything to do with his behavior while he was at Converge media.

[691] I wanted Converge media to issue a statement apologizing for letting him into their community and to say that they're sorry.

[692] They're victims as well of him.

[693] I'm assuming positive intent and that they didn't know.

[694] So they potentially could be a victim as well.

[695] And all I wanted was there to be an apology to the women that he manipulated and abused while he was at Converge.

[696] We never wanted Converg Media's name to be like slammed and dragged through the mud through all of this.

[697] That was not our point.

[698] We're not trying to affect the livelihood of other people.

[699] However, if you make decisions and are responsible for those decisions and those decisions are crappy, You're silencing people.

[700] That's what it came down to, like turning off the comments, avoiding putting out a statement at all for so long.

[701] And then when you do, like, it being so unclear of what you're actually saying, they released a statement saying that they were going to launch an investigation.

[702] Who knows what that even means?

[703] Months go by before we hear anything.

[704] We're the ones that, you know, people are reaching out to, like, any word on this?

[705] We're like, okay, we'll follow up.

[706] We never wanted this to impact converge media.

[707] That was not ever on our radar.

[708] We were never planning on calling out Converge or anything like that.

[709] Leading up to the Zoom call, Omari was very nice.

[710] He made me feel really at ease like, okay, we're good and we're just going to have this conversation.

[711] I asked him, is it okay if I invite Mimi, Melissa, and Sarah to be on the call because Mimi and Sarah created the Instagram and I want to make sure that their voices heard as well and that we're coming.

[712] to you collectively saying we are hearing from the community, these women are coming forward and this is what they're saying to us as a company that cares about women should say something along the lines of, not I'm sorry, but like that it wasn't their intention to let a predator in their community.

[713] I did feel blindsided because I had asked permission to have Melissa and them on the call.

[714] And when we get on the call, it's Omari and other women, which I would have been fine with them being there, but he didn't even ask or he didn't say like, I'll also be including these other women on this call.

[715] I was really shocked when I looked and it's like half of the company.

[716] I can't even remember the exact amount, but it was Omari and probably five or six other women that are on the call too.

[717] Already, I feel kind of misled.

[718] It was never said, hey, so this is who is going to be on the Zoom or a group of us would like to talk to you.

[719] This is my personal opinion and how I felt in the moment.

[720] I never felt like they really wanted to even hear anything we had to say.

[721] They started off from the get -go attacking us, really, and telling us every way that that Jake Instagram had hurt their business and hurt their company and hurt them individually.

[722] I don't remember them ever even asking us to share our experiences or anything.

[723] I know one woman actually referred to the Jake page at one point as all that slander.

[724] I remember you guys sent me all that slander, but other than that, I don't know anything about any of it.

[725] They really portrayed themselves in that call as not knowing Jake.

[726] We don't know him.

[727] We don't fuck with him.

[728] He's not like us.

[729] He's not one of us.

[730] He's just one of however many photographers.

[731] He's nothing special.

[732] We don't even really know him.

[733] And it was really off -putting.

[734] We all felt on edge.

[735] We felt attacked.

[736] We felt like they did not care at all about anything that we had been through, anything that Jake had done.

[737] They didn't even know who we all were.

[738] I don't think they had ever even read any of the Jake Instagram.

[739] They didn't even know how many kids Jake had or how many women were running the Instagram.

[740] I don't think they had even taken the time to look at it at any point.

[741] They really put this perception out there that they had no idea what any of it was.

[742] The only thing that they cared about was that it affected them personally.

[743] I tried to explain to them at one point.

[744] It wasn't our goal, even in the very beginning, to get Jake fired.

[745] That was not why the page was created.

[746] But when women after woman in the community start contacting us and telling us that I trusted Jake because I trust Omari, I trusted Jake because I trust Converge, all these people are lifting him up like he's a saint, basically, that I felt like he was a safe person, that I did not.

[747] have to do a background check on him that I didn't have to question the things that he was saying because I did not believe that this company that I respect so much would put someone so dangerous into the community and I was trying to like explain that it wasn't about us other than Sarah Sarah actually was during her relationship with Jake was during the converged timeline as far as Kalin and I went I told them I said I don't personally feel victimized by anything that you guys have done or anything with Jake with Converge because that wasn't a part of any of my timeline.

[748] I wasn't around for any of this.

[749] But we got to the point with this Instagram that we were advocating for these other victims and we were trying to speak up on their behalf because it was a major theme.

[750] I said there wasn't like one or two people.

[751] I want to say it was between 25 and 30 women that had contacted us, that had some kind of contact with Jake during his time it converged.

[752] We're not saying that you did that on purpose, that you did any of this on purpose, because that was another thing that they said in the Zoom call.

[753] They acted like we had accused them of purposely putting a predator into the community.

[754] It just felt like not only were they missing the point, I don't think they even wanted to understand the point.

[755] It makes me wonder what Omari told these women.

[756] I could only imagine what he was telling them.

[757] I have no clue to this day.

[758] I feel like with the whole converged thing, and as far as that group of women who, to be honest, I think they all do amazing things within the community.

[759] What they have as far as their company goes and their mission within the community, I think, is amazing.

[760] And that's why it's really unfortunate that they became a part of this because that's a company that all of us would have liked to be able to stand behind and really get on board and support them.

[761] but it's really hard to when you feel like you're being attacked or there's something hidden.

[762] It just really feels like there's a piece to all of this that we can't see.

[763] And I don't know what that is, but I know other people have said it and I feel 100 % the same way that it does not logically make sense that Omari has gone so far out of his way to avoid speaking out about Jake, to avoid firing him.

[764] He didn't want to release a statement.

[765] He didn't want to do all of these things and then to hear all of what he allowed Jake to get away with while he was working there, it doesn't make any sense to me. I don't understand why anyone is worth that kind of liability within a company.

[766] Towards the end, there was one woman on that call that we felt like actually changed the tone of it towards the end.

[767] And she was really the first person that was kind to us on that call.

[768] And I think they all kind of like backed off a little bit of the that point and by the end of it, they were wanting us to work hand in hand with them and release joint statements.

[769] I was pretty heated when I got off of the call because they wanted us to write it.

[770] Omari and a couple other people that work there, that this perception that like, well, we don't even really know him, this is just an employee and we don't know him past that is bullshit.

[771] There's pictures of Jake and Omari attending sporting events together.

[772] There's video.

[773] I was looking a while back and watching the videos that Converge still has of Jake up on their YouTube.

[774] And the way they talk about him, clearly, at the bare minimum, he was their number one go -to photographer.

[775] He was a part of their morning show.

[776] He was like co -hosting their morning show at times.

[777] And I know you've mentioned it multiple times, but the clip of Omari saying, who could say no to Jake Gravrod?

[778] I don't know if there's deeper meaning there, but it really made my stomach turn in knots.

[779] I called up my buddy, my buddy, the big O, and I asked him, I said, would you mind being on this show with me and doing a little co -hosting duties?

[780] And guess what he said?

[781] He said, of course, who can say no to Jake Gravry?

[782] Let's be serious.

[783] Even if I wanted to say no, I couldn't say no. And here you are.

[784] Man, and I'm happy to be here too.

[785] It took two minutes of being in that call.

[786] for me to realize, like, oh, we're completely unprepared for what they're about to do.

[787] I had, like, my own reservations about going into.

[788] I did not trust Omari at all.

[789] The narrative that I, an impression I had of him, was he put this image out there that cares about the community and lifting up black women and all this stuff.

[790] I mentioned this previously that I would hear from Jake, too.

[791] Their relationship was very odd in that, like, he admired him, but also he would talk so much shit on Omari about how awful of a person he could be sometimes, that there were multiple sides to him.

[792] So going into this call, already uncomfortable and concerned with how we're going to go about this.

[793] How do we stick to the facts?

[794] This is what we're asking of you.

[795] We're not coming after you.

[796] This is what your community wanted.

[797] This is what they were unhappy with.

[798] And this is the role that we're kind of playing there, right?

[799] There's a bunch of women on mute, some of which I've recognized from some of the other shows and had met even in person when I was at the Converge offices.

[800] None of which I have any personal feelings towards.

[801] Like I don't think any of these people are in the wrong necessarily.

[802] I feel like Omari is the decision maker and driving force in that place.

[803] So it really fell on his shoulders of how he's responding and or isn't responding at that point.

[804] So fast forward to this call.

[805] He's taking the charge.

[806] I can tell it like emotions are rising very quickly and it's going to get out of hand.

[807] And that's personally when I would love to cut it off and get out of that call immediately.

[808] Like we needed to regroup.

[809] But I was at work and listening in and everyone was in different places and there was a lot of things going on.

[810] But they put us on.

[811] on the defense really early on.

[812] And when confronted with anything of like, this is how we felt or this is what our intentions were, were extremely defensive.

[813] Where he was saying we were wrong essentially for the way that we reached out to him was like his bottom line.

[814] It was a very Jake thing to do.

[815] Like if you told Jake that you had a problem with something that he did, it would turn into how his mother didn't love him and how his wife took his children away and how he's had it so hard and this and that.

[816] It was almost like that with conversion as well, because we're saying, hey, you didn't respond.

[817] You turned off comments and people felt unheard.

[818] And it was like, we're out here fighting for our lives.

[819] We deal with death threats every day.

[820] I've had to deal with the threats against my own family and all of this stuff, which had nothing to do with us at the end of the day.

[821] And if it was like driving a point of trying to help us understand where you're coming from, I get that.

[822] But it just was all about that over and over again, it seemed.

[823] Like the same kind of ammo, nothing sat right with me about that whole thing.

[824] It was a pretty unproductive conversation until the end, mostly.

[825] We just kind of agree to disagree.

[826] It felt very insincere.

[827] That's the most I can really say about all of that.

[828] I know that they wanted us to use the Instagram page to, like, clear their name and say that we were working with them and we've spoken to them and that things are all good.

[829] We got off that call and all connected.

[830] Like, that would be great in an ideal world.

[831] I don't know that I trust this or feel that.

[832] And we just hit pause on there.

[833] We spoke with you about how the call went and had a couple of things.

[834] people give us, you know, their insights onto that whole situation and decided just to like pause moving forward with them in any co -working situation there.

[835] My entire experience with Converge was over a couple of months period.

[836] During the time that I was involved with Converge, Jake and Omari were very close.

[837] What has happened since then and the two years since, I couldn't say.

[838] On air, they seemed very close.

[839] Jake had his own show.

[840] Jake was a frequent guest host on the daily show.

[841] He was absolutely part of the core team.

[842] So the idea that they didn't really know him very well is to me complete bullshit.

[843] The big fella himself.

[844] Jake Gravbrow, how are you?

[845] I'm good, man. Always just, you know, happy to be here.

[846] Yeah, it's good to see you again.

[847] Thanks.

[848] Yeah, it's done, you know, about five minutes or so.

[849] About five minutes.

[850] Every day, man, well, it's been more time with grab by I think anybody I think so actually I feel good about that yeah I feel good about it too one of the women on the call wanted us to personally contact every woman from the jake instagram page wanted us to contact them reach out to them and tell them we're working with converge now converges and the enemy they're good people something to that effect and I was just like what on earth that is so bizarre.

[851] Like, why would we do that?

[852] I would say the first 10 minutes of the call, it was mostly Amari, bragging about all of their accomplishments as a company.

[853] And I think it was Kalin that said, I don't think you're really understanding.

[854] Like, it's not about your company.

[855] It's not about your accomplishments.

[856] It's about the fact that you're saying Jake isn't one of us.

[857] We don't know him.

[858] But these women that were impacted by this within the community, they were your supporters.

[859] So whether Jake was a part of your inner circle or not, there are people that your choices within all of this has really deeply impacted.

[860] And that's what we're trying to like keep the focus on.

[861] He was saying, I don't really know him.

[862] I don't fuck with Jake.

[863] We're nothing implying that he has no relationship with him.

[864] But I do think that they had a relationship that was very close.

[865] And so I don't know if maybe he had blinders on when it came to this bad behavior or if he truly didn't know.

[866] What I thought was going to come out of this Zoom call was he was going to tell us what the outcome was of the investigation, because that is what I asked for in the email.

[867] We didn't get any resolution regarding the investigation.

[868] He didn't really tell us anything about it.

[869] That is not the focus of the call, but that was what I thought that the focus of the call was going to be.

[870] We talked about both issuing a statement.

[871] I asked them, maybe you guys write what you want, what you're looking for type of thing, because they are a media company.

[872] They're like in the news and they write things on the 14th, July 14th.

[873] So that was the next day.

[874] at 7 p .m. Omari wrote me and said, Hi, Kalin.

[875] Just letting you know that we'll be sending you an email in the next day or so with thoughts from the queens from the call, concentrated and discussion on how best we can all join hands and proceed.

[876] Giving my all -oh.

[877] I didn't even reply.

[878] July 15th, he said, Hi, Kaylan, hoping that you're well.

[879] Following up here, wanted to see if you're okay with setting up a group email address.

[880] So moving forward, everyone would be included in the conversation.

[881] I also wanted to make sure that the resolution that you and the other ladies seek is not overlooked by the ongoing issue with other people who might have different intentions.

[882] Giving my all -oh.

[883] I said, hi, Omari.

[884] For the record, we are not involved with any issues, with any other parties outside of the four of us, and any women who have privately come forward.

[885] our focus remains on the victims.

[886] With that said, we want to thank you for your time and energy.

[887] We've been advised by several outside parties that it's in our best interest to cease communication for the time being.

[888] We, in no way, shape, or form want to force you into issuing a statement that you don't fully agree with.

[889] Thank you for understanding, Kaylon, Melissa, and Sarah.

[890] He responded back.

[891] Same day, not much longer after.

[892] Hi, Kaylan.

[893] Thank you for your email.

[894] You for our.

[895] in no way forcing a statement at all.

[896] Our statement on this overall issue is coming, granted a bit later than we initially thought, but air is on the way things have been taken a bit more time.

[897] I don't know what that is supposed to mean.

[898] Thank you for clarifying where you and the other stand making that clear.

[899] I hope that you will consider opening channels of communication again soon as one thing that I wanted to do was make myself available to anyone impact.

[900] who wanted to talk.

[901] I'll make sure to email you when we do release in the coming days, giving my all -o.

[902] That was on the 15th, and then on the 22nd, he said, hi, Kaelan, hope you're well.

[903] Just a heads up.

[904] We'll be updating the community on Monday, if not sooner.

[905] So I'm not responding anymore at this point.

[906] July 26th, 838, good morning.

[907] Please see attached.

[908] This will be going out later today.

[909] Converge Media's second statement regarding Jake Gravbrot was posted July 26, 2022, and states, First and foremost, we stand with all impacted, period.

[910] At no time has Converge Media as a company or anyone directly associated with Converge Media defended any of Jake's actions.

[911] Converge Media is a six -year -old company centered in the voice of black women and those most marginalized in our community, and has earned the respect and trust of not only our legacy black community members, but also our new members who joined our community following the Seattle protests.

[912] We respect and uplift all community members.

[913] That being said, trading on the Converge Media name by anyone who is gaining access to our community members, either financially or emotionally based on the use of Converge Media's name is totally unacceptable and is not tolerated ever.

[914] Once our senior leadership team, comprised of five women and two men, had a clear understanding of the issue, we acted immediately to sever our relationship with Jake, who was a freelance photographer with Converge Media on March 4, 2022.

[915] After severing ties with Jake, we looked at several things internally regarding issues directly regarding our policies, practices, or company premises, including but not limited to.

[916] Did Converge Media do a good job managing inbound communication regarding Jake?

[917] No. Although we were expedient and managing inbound official communication via our website.

[918] We could have done a better job via our social platforms.

[919] We use our platforms for distribution and not engagement, and at the time did not have a social media management agency, so many messages were not answered.

[920] Additionally, several staff members were personally being threatened via social platforms at the same time which clouded the overall communication stream.

[921] Did Converge Media give a timely response?

[922] No. It took a while for us to get a full understanding internally, and because of this, we were delayed in our response and initial statement to community.

[923] Did Converge Media knowingly shelter Jake after severing the relationship?

[924] No. Once we were aware, we acted immediately to update all parties that Jake was no longer with Converge Media.

[925] Was Converge Media compliant with the state government regarding child support withholding and remittance?

[926] Yes, Converge was in total compliance with state government.

[927] Did Converge media allow access for Jake?

[928] At Converge, we have 13 freelance photographers, videographers we work with, as well as 10 on -air talents, including our queens of converge.

[929] The uplift is part and parcel of what we do at Converge.

[930] Did Jake benefit from the Converge uplift?

[931] Yes.

[932] More than any other photographer or on -air talent?

[933] No. What has come out of this internal review is that Converge Media has adapted some best practices moving forward to help us more efficiently communicate with community members and also clearly indicate to community who is a part of our core team and who is not.

[934] Call center 24 -7.

[935] To cut through any clutter on the internet, we have a dedicated call center in which anyone with a concern can call 24 -7.

[936] This will allow us to immediately respond to urgent concerns from the community.

[937] Update.

[938] We are moving to a new call Center provider and hope to have this in place by December 16th.

[939] In the interim, we can be reached during office hours at 206 -468 -9420.

[940] If no one answers, please leave a message and we will get back to you.

[941] Social Media Management.

[942] We have engaged a social media management firm to monitor more efficiently management inboxes and comments across platforms.

[943] Enriched email routing via website.

[944] For those who choose to use our website to communicate, emails are now forwarded to all senior leadership as opposed to a single person managing the mailbox.

[945] Background check for all freelancers.

[946] As Converge Media continues to grow a grassroots outlet serving the Central District of Seattle to a larger platform, serving the Emerald City and beyond, and thus we are working with more new people.

[947] Although our core team background checks are standard, we are now requiring background checks for all freelance photographers and contributors as well.

[948] Website update with core staff and freelancers.

[949] On September 1st or sooner, our website will be updated to clearly indicate to the public core members of the Converged Media leadership and team on -air talent, producers and directors, as well as freelance photographers and videographers so the public can always know who they're engaging with and what role they play at Converge Media.

[950] Thank you to those who have reached out and thank you to those who have spoken to us directly over the past few months, either by phone, email, or in person.

[951] You taking the time to speak with us played a key role in determining the way forward.

[952] For those of you who want to continue the conversation, we are here for you.

[953] Community, thank you for your patience.

[954] This update was delayed heavily by COVID as well as by taking the time to listen and determine best practices and implementation.

[955] Their next statement was even worse.

[956] To open it up with, we stand with all those impacted, Converge couldn't even acknowledge that there's victims, couldn't acknowledge that Jake did any harm, didn't acknowledge their part in giving Jake a platform.

[957] It was definitely not a good way to address the situation.

[958] I just think that like when it comes down to it, they just didn't get it.

[959] We were asking them to have a little bit of accountability, not a whole lot.

[960] say that you're sorry for unknowingly putting somebody in the community in the protest community that was a predator.

[961] And you can leave it at that.

[962] They didn't do this on purpose.

[963] And nobody is saying that it was on purpose.

[964] But I do think that Omari had an idea that Jake was dangerous and he didn't act on that.

[965] The following testimony is from a previously employed Converge Media freelancer who wishes to remain anonymous and has requested we change his voice for anonymity purposes.

[966] The way I really kind of became a part of their converge group was I've been doing videography and photography for some years and the protests started.

[967] As that unfolded before it really started here in Seattle or really anywhere, I had looked at this as a defining moment within the city.

[968] Obviously it was a huge national situation, but just from a local standpoint, I thought this will be one of those pivotal moments in the history of Seattle, I'd like to go out and document it.

[969] A lot of what I specialize in is civil unrest.

[970] I was intending at the time to just film, put it on the shelf, and then his years went by, and the story was going to be told that I would have a library of footage that could be used for them.

[971] I had no idea it was going to be as impactful as it was and as sustained as it was.

[972] And in my time out there, continuing to cover that, I ran into Amari Salisbury because he was out there a lot doing his live streams and all of that.

[973] During that time, NBC had come to town during the Chaz Chop days, had seen me out there because I wasn't out there with an iPhone.

[974] I was out there with more kind of commercial -level gear, and I was out there for 12, 14 hours a day.

[975] And they hit me up and said, hey, would you be interested in licensing footage to us so we can tell the story on nightly news and then on the Today Show?

[976] I ended up entering into agreement with them.

[977] At that point, Omari and I are passing each other more and more.

[978] He's doing this kind of concept he calls the morning show that he was doing live from out there.

[979] As time went on, he would hit me up asking what was going on here.

[980] I'd ask him what was going on in a different area and we'd pass information back and forth.

[981] He started asking if I wanted to come and sit in on a show.

[982] And what I found is with that show, it's not a lot of smoking mirrors.

[983] It really doesn't have much viewership.

[984] He has a handful of local business leaders within the community that he's really catering to that don't need money to the organization, but there's really not much to that show.

[985] He had talked about wanting to advance the cinematography of the organization and ticket to that next level.

[986] and would I be interested in helping out?

[987] So I would start helping out more and more with their live streams.

[988] And in the beginning of it, I never really saw Jake much.

[989] I don't know when he really became involved in the organization.

[990] I know he kind of leaned on a guy named Bobby Steeleas.

[991] At some point, Jake becomes part of the organization.

[992] I would run across him from time to time.

[993] I ran into a couple times.

[994] I found him to be kind of abrasive, but they made it out like he was some sort of an artist.

[995] As if that was just typical for artists and okay, whatever.

[996] I also work in the creator industry.

[997] I work with real artists, national.

[998] artists, celebrities, and I don't generally run into people with that kind of demeanor, but okay, I guess he's just special.

[999] As time would go on, I found that Omari really kind of leaned on him as his right -hand guy and really seemed to respect the work that he was able to put out.

[1000] As it started out, I kind of had an arm's -length, transaction kind of thing with Converge.

[1001] They wanted to open up into a new studio and asked if I would help with my construction company, built that out, and then if I wanted to have a desk in their space and go on to retainer system, so where I would get a little bit of money twice a month that would cover me to be able to advise to them.

[1002] I was open to that.

[1003] We went into that arrangement, and then I started running into Jake a lot more.

[1004] Jake had a desk in her.

[1005] As time went on, he always had some new girl around him, not to a point that it really seemed remarkable or concerning.

[1006] I just noticed I thought with his attitude, girls wouldn't be that into him.

[1007] I was kind of surprised.

[1008] I think that's the part that stuck out to me. Like, really, that guy's kind of an hassle.

[1009] He's always got these girls around it was a little shock.

[1010] And they were attractive and seemed to never have a problem getting a date.

[1011] And this time would go on.

[1012] There was always this joke about that.

[1013] He apparently really liked crazy girls and they really liked him.

[1014] And he had all this baggage that would come around him connected to that.

[1015] But it was seen as some sort of like a joke as if somehow he was just that good and whatever it was he did that they would put up with him and that he really seemed that they made it out as though he just seemed to really like crazy girls.

[1016] It was more just the type a girl he was into.

[1017] What I had found was extremely moody.

[1018] I mean, one extreme to the other, and Salisbury, you couldn't get away with that type of attitude around there, except for him.

[1019] And Salisbury would always tell everybody, you leave Jake around, don't touch his desk.

[1020] If you touch something on his desk, he would go into such a fucking rage.

[1021] I mean, start throwing stuff, screaming at everybody, telling him how nobody's as good as him.

[1022] And Salisbury would just put up with it.

[1023] It was the most bizarre thing.

[1024] I saw this happen one time, because somebody moved something on Jake's desk.

[1025] He has all these things that he'd have his computer.

[1026] I don't know what you call.

[1027] In my head, I keep coming with the word trinkets.

[1028] Just all these different things that apparently matter very much to him are organized in a very specific way.

[1029] And he had a camera that would actually watch to see if anybody touched them.

[1030] So somebody couldn't find a pen and you didn't know the deal and you wouldn't grab the pen off of Jake's desk.

[1031] You would hear about it later because he had this camera.

[1032] Could watch whoever went around his desk.

[1033] It was the most bizarre thing.

[1034] Remember thinking like, what is it that this guy provides here that makes all of this?

[1035] this worth it.

[1036] This makes no sense to me. I mean, he's a good photographer.

[1037] I don't want to say he's not capable or not talented, but who's worth all this?

[1038] I often wondered what it was that Omari got out of the relationship that worked for him.

[1039] I think Jake was probably somebody more about showing up every day, putting in the hours.

[1040] I think he felt very indebted to Omari because I think Omari was giving him a chance that most others wouldn't.

[1041] His most other organizations wouldn't have put up with this bullshit.

[1042] Omari would.

[1043] And in turn, There was a real level of trust and dependence between the two.

[1044] What the work that came out of it, I thought was above average, for sure, nothing worth all of that.

[1045] There were a couple of times where I did in interactions with Jake.

[1046] We were doing a thing at one of those big theaters downtown.

[1047] We were doing like the first show back from COVID, where we were going to do a live stage performance.

[1048] They bring in different rap artists, local artists, politicians, all these different people.

[1049] And would I help lead the day to day on it?

[1050] So I was like, yeah, sure.

[1051] And I remember at some point I had asked Jake because he was there, hey, can you operate?

[1052] one of the cameras for the show, he said, okay, fine.

[1053] What I didn't know was apparently he was there to do snow photography.

[1054] Nobody told me that.

[1055] So I said, hey, can you up at this camera and he did it?

[1056] And then later, after the show was over, comes up just screaming at me about how I fucked this whole world out.

[1057] He didn't make any money that day because he's not getting paid for the stills.

[1058] And I was like, well, then why didn't you just say that when I asked you to run the kid?

[1059] The only reason I asked you is you were standing there.

[1060] It's not, you know, if it wasn't your responsibility, you got to fill me in.

[1061] This goes on.

[1062] He wouldn't talk to me for like a month after you know.

[1063] and I got on to Omari a bitch I'd ask him to do something that wasn't in his job description it was a lot of these just moody things where I was like man if I was the employee if I was Omari here I wouldn't put up with any of this why am I always cleaning up these messes there were a couple times I wondered I was like man if that's how that guy would talk to me it only makes sense the stories I'm hearing of how he would talk or treat women in his life I'm not some tough guy but the guy would talk to me like I was stupid I can't imagine how he would speak to somebody smaller than him or in a position that I'm sure in his mind, he sees as much more subservient to him.

[1064] Later on, when I saw this stuff that had been on the interest, I started to click of like, that's what this was.

[1065] The jokes that Omari would make about it, Jake was there for at least 30 plus hours a week, if not 40 -hour work weeks.

[1066] He had a desk in there that they had given him, that he sat in daily.

[1067] They paid all expenses paid trips for him to go to places like Belize.

[1068] He was extremely involved.

[1069] He was Omari's right -hand guy.

[1070] They produced a show that went really nowhere, but I think it was called GTFO.

[1071] Get the fuck out.

[1072] He would go travel to places and document that trip.

[1073] He was extremely closer.

[1074] And the two of them specifically, I don't know that there was anybody closer in the organization.

[1075] And it was always a challenge for Omari because the people who were giving that organization money were very blunt about you're a black -owned media company.

[1076] Why do you even have white people there at all?

[1077] And Jake would somehow sustain through.

[1078] this every time because it was Jake.

[1079] It was like the one guy who was like, hey, nobody seems to be able to do what he can do.

[1080] He would have instances where he would not show up for a week or two still want his check.

[1081] And then he would come back and put in his, again, 30, 40 hours a week.

[1082] And they would just say, well, Jake's pissed off.

[1083] He's working through some stuff.

[1084] So we got to let him go deal with that.

[1085] He's having some personal problems.

[1086] Whatever was happening with this, because it would always just kind of be packaged up as he's Jake.

[1087] He's up and down.

[1088] He's he had security cameras up above his bed and in his living room and people didn't necessarily know that they were being filmed.

[1089] Did you ever overhear them talking about anything of that nature?

[1090] I want to frame it properly.

[1091] I don't think it was considered an allegation of time.

[1092] It was more considered it was one of the things that he did that he liked to videotape having sex with girls.

[1093] There was an assumption that they were okay with it, that they knew about.

[1094] So I had heard about it through that, not that it was something he was doing that he wasn't supposed to or that they didn't know about.

[1095] But that came back to that narrative that apparently he was pretty amazing in bed and girls really were into him.

[1096] That's why he was able to have this line of girls all the time, not videotaping them having sex was a normal thing for him.

[1097] As if they had their permission, but that it was shot to appear as voyeuristic.

[1098] I believe Jake had talked about it.

[1099] Omari had touched on it at some point in time, but that it was consensual.

[1100] This was shot, meant to be voyeuristic, but because he was this troubled guy, it was something he enjoyed and that the girls would too.

[1101] I'd never seen any of this.

[1102] I'd never talked to anybody about it, but I had heard conversation about it.

[1103] Probably early, early December, late November, somewhere in there.

[1104] Well, time went on.

[1105] There was going to be this trip to Belize last year.

[1106] As time was coming up, everybody needed to have a passport to be able to go on that trip.

[1107] It came out that Jake could not get his passport because the government would not issue his passport because of his child support warrants.

[1108] And this was really the first time it really started coming out, was kind of circulated, if you will, that he had a real problem out there.

[1109] And the guy couldn't even travel to Belize because of this problem.

[1110] It was this joke as if, well, yeah, he's got all these baby mamas and all these other girls that don't like him, but they're just pissed off because he's not into him anymore.

[1111] It was just like this recurring joke.

[1112] It was really bizarre.

[1113] So he goes to Belize, comes back.

[1114] The week of Christmas, I was terminated from the organization, more or less let goes that I was no longer.

[1115] needed.

[1116] And then that was it.

[1117] At that point, I was done with the organization.

[1118] And Salisbury and I had some interactions and beliefs that was some things that I wasn't really comfortable with within the organization.

[1119] And it wasn't really calling him out just saying, hey, I think I have some concerns about stuff you guys are doing.

[1120] And then the result is on the week of Christmas, I find out that my retainer's being canceled, not getting the last check and we're no longer working together.

[1121] At that point, okay, fine, move on about my business.

[1122] It took them months to finally pay off for the construction that they had my organization due for them.

[1123] And then at some point I hear about this Instagram account that is out there that's showing really what Jake was all about in the past stories and these women who had had these, as I've read through pretty wild stories of incidents with this guy, longstanding abuse, a very similar pattern too.

[1124] And then comes out that they put out this public statement converge does that they're no longer working with him, which I could tell you was not completely accurate.

[1125] They were still continuing to take his footage, use his footage, communicate with him, get stuff he'd shot from the past.

[1126] I don't know that that's still true.

[1127] I can tell you with 100 % certainty as of three, two, three weeks ago, but I was being told from people who are still involved in the organizations, yeah, he still communicates with Omari semi -frequently.

[1128] They still get content between each other.

[1129] Content being stuff he's like filmed in the past or somehow participated in.

[1130] Like, hey, can we get a copy of this?

[1131] They're still collecting footage or using footage.

[1132] And however they put it out there is how it was created, I don't know, but they're absolutely still getting footage from it.

[1133] This is now a few months later from that.

[1134] I don't know what their relationship is with them now, but in talking to some of the other employees around there, because I still work with some of those guys on other side projects, they say, no, they still talk to him all the time because they still need to get stuff Jake probably owns because he's the one who shot it.

[1135] So I know there's still communication back and forth.

[1136] That's kind of in a nutshell what my arrangement was with them, how I no longer work with them.

[1137] I could never figure out the logic of first the actions themselves and then what value there was to make it worth the risk.

[1138] I never could find it.

[1139] My name is Omari Salisbury and I'm the co -founder of Converged Media.

[1140] For them feeling attack, I offer my apologies.

[1141] What me and my colleagues all said at the beginning of the call was that none of us stand with Jake or defend Jake and have never defended Jake and were upset on Jake's actions.

[1142] I think people who watch me, they know that when things are in crisis is usually when I'm at my calmness and collected.

[1143] And I think that people who might even remember during the Seattle protest, there were times where people were pointing guns at each other and I'm in the middle and I'm just sitting there cool as a cucumber, trying to, at least on the outside, trying to calm things down.

[1144] And this was the wrong demeanor for me in this particular meeting.

[1145] I was pissed at Jake.

[1146] I still am pissed at all of us on.

[1147] Every single person, but that emotion ain't come through on the call because it went into the call almost as a business, you know, and it is a business call instead of a call.

[1148] full of empathy.

[1149] I think that's definitely a mistake that's on my part right there.

[1150] And clearly it set a wrong tone with these guys and thinking that we're supportive or anything else like that.

[1151] And so for that, we definitely did not want to make anyone feel unsupported at all.

[1152] So in setting up this call with the individual that I set up the call with email, I did say that our colleagues, the queens are converged.

[1153] That's basically, you know, who we center or a lot of our programming around.

[1154] This is the black women at Converge who, it's their voices that were primary uplifting.

[1155] And I did let the original person know.

[1156] And there was a discussion there when we were setting up the call that they were join us.

[1157] But I could see maybe everybody who joined, because it was quite a few people that got on the call and were all telling us about all this stuff with Jake.

[1158] And so I could see how maybe someone on there might not have been aware that the queens were going to be on the call as well.

[1159] But that definitely was an intention to sit there and ambush.

[1160] I think if we were to do this call all again, it would have been a listening session first.

[1161] And that's really what needed to happen.

[1162] The flip side is that we also had these queens here who were on the call because they also been harmed by Jake.

[1163] They got people sitting there threatening them and all kinds of stuff.

[1164] And this is all directly stemming from Jake.

[1165] And I think in my mind, it was like, well, you have this group right here, here who Jake has harmed.

[1166] And then you also got this group right here at Converge, who you got to remember put me and my feelings or whatever to the side.

[1167] You got these women here at Converge who Jake's taking their photo.

[1168] He's moved around with them by moving around with them.

[1169] Probably has helped him gain trust with the general public and some of everything else.

[1170] I mean, they felt used.

[1171] They felt betrayed.

[1172] They're under attack and also harmed.

[1173] by Jake.

[1174] And I think that probably having everybody, in retrospect, having everybody two really harmed groups, clearly one more than the other, but two harmed groups of women on both sides of this and together in the call and in the first call, it didn't set the best environment.

[1175] Like I said, in retrospect, my intention was never to make anybody feel unheard or make anybody feel under attack or making anybody feel whatever.

[1176] I thought that I was bringing two groups of women who were basically impacted by Jake and his actions together and people could see that.

[1177] And in some parts of that conversation, I think that they did.

[1178] One of the queens sat there and on the call was like, Jake duped them.

[1179] Jake duped all of us.

[1180] The manipulation was there.

[1181] Just to add on into the felt like survivors were blamed for accountability instead of having space.

[1182] Nah, man, their survivors aren't to blame.

[1183] The Queens ain't to blame.

[1184] Jake Grabrot is to blame.

[1185] That's unfortunate.

[1186] And I apologize if they walked away from that meeting thinking that they were to be blamed for accountability.

[1187] Nah, that's not it at all.

[1188] And also, one of the biggest things is that I wish that I spoke with the same passion that I'm speaking to you right now.

[1189] What was required in the moment was more empathy.

[1190] What was required in the moment was basically to take that journalist hat off and that business hat off and everything else and just put more that humanity hat on.

[1191] It's a missed opportunity to be more, to show more humanity towards people who are clearly in crisis and clearly in suffering.

[1192] The intentions were good because I thought that it would be helpful for the survivor group to also meet these women at Converge who have also been impacted by Jake's action, who also felt betrayed, who also felt used, who also felt disgusted, like yuck.

[1193] That's why we wanted to bring everybody together.

[1194] We definitely looked at the page.

[1195] Everybody did it, especially the Queens.

[1196] They were being tagged in the pages.

[1197] We were all being tagged in the pages.

[1198] It was a lot of stuff.

[1199] Everybody saw it.

[1200] It was sickening to the point.

[1201] I went to the hospital.

[1202] I almost fainted after looking at all of this stuff that was in there.

[1203] When I look back at this call, I wish that we would have spoken with more emotion about how guys felt in that moment.

[1204] This was just sickening information.

[1205] 100%.

[1206] I think that it's a misunderstanding when no one was saying that the page was slandered.

[1207] I know that one of my colleagues said that she was being slandered, not by this group that we talked to, but people were slandering her name on all this attack.

[1208] Like, this is Jake.

[1209] This is Hurricane Jake.

[1210] All of this stuff here is everything coming out from this storm called Jake.

[1211] Quite a few women at Converge have been victims of domestic violence or sexual violence.

[1212] And so this whole thing was triggering.

[1213] It was highly triggering.

[1214] And when they go to their notification and see some of these things, A lot of them were triggered, and one of them is basically still in therapy because she was just triggered from her past experience around domestic violence and sexual violence.

[1215] If it came across, the guys didn't look at the page or the guys thought that it was slander, that's not the case at all.

[1216] I mentioned this on the call to them, but I can give it more space here.

[1217] Me and Jake did spend a lot of time together in a work capacity.

[1218] That's 100 % undeniable, but we never really hung out in a private time or a private space.

[1219] We went to social things together, Mariners games, got invited to a lot of Mariners games or social events that others went to as well, like other staff members most of the time.

[1220] I've been to Jake's house one time.

[1221] I've never been in any off -duty setting with him and a woman.

[1222] Anybody that I met at the office and I saw with Jake.

[1223] So when I said, like, I didn't know Jake, I didn't know the allegations.

[1224] I didn't say that correctly.

[1225] When I said that I didn't know Jake, I didn't know the Jake in the allegations.

[1226] I know the work Jake.

[1227] And the work Jake is there all day.

[1228] He does his work.

[1229] He goes, moves on, and everything else.

[1230] I never hang out with Jake in a sense of kicking it or anything else.

[1231] People know I have a saying that says, work hard, stay humble, take your ass home.

[1232] You find me after work at home.

[1233] watching Master Chef or Hell's Kitchen on YouTube on the weekends, out with my kids.

[1234] The Jake that I knew wasn't the Jake in the allegations is what I was trying to say.

[1235] It's impossible for me to say like, oh, I didn't know Jake, I didn't whatever.

[1236] I worked with him every day.

[1237] But I knew him in a work capacity.

[1238] That's why some of this stuff was so shocking.

[1239] But in a personal sense, there's nobody in our organization that I hang out with.

[1240] or now.

[1241] And I can see how, without that clarification, somebody could be like, hold on, man, that's not right.

[1242] This guy was around Jake all the time.

[1243] Yes.

[1244] And so again, I offer my apologies.

[1245] That's not their intention.

[1246] A lot of all the women on the call were realizing all of us have been impacted.

[1247] All of them are victims of Jake in one way or another.

[1248] One of my colleagues mentioned something like, can you guys let people know?

[1249] We're not with the shit.

[1250] Because they were being attacked, not by this group that was on the phone.

[1251] But, I mean, this thing has reached a frenzy pace at this point.

[1252] It's not to clear Converge his name.

[1253] It was more, like I said, of a clarity around the Queens as to how they were being impacted.

[1254] He came in here and blew everything up and left everybody to shit here and pick up the pieces with John Mitchell, first and foremost, John Mitchell was instrumental in the fire and the Jake, in the media fire in the Jake.

[1255] It was the same day or perhaps the next day after John initially reached out and broke down what was going on, the Jake was fired on the spot.

[1256] Well, I got those text messages over from Nick.

[1257] It was like, man, we've got to fire this guy.

[1258] When things first started to surface, Jake was like, ah, man, one of my exes is mad about child support.

[1259] And so she's just talking or whatever posted on the internet.

[1260] his child support was being garnished from his check.

[1261] I was like, man, well, listen, but whatever issues you got with your kids and your child support, you need to go handle that because that's what he was telling us, what he was lying about, that that was the issue.

[1262] So John, Sam, this is what is exactly going on.

[1263] That was Keith.

[1264] John did say, you guys should release a written statement.

[1265] And again, that's a big regret.

[1266] And, you know, what I should have done that day is not only released a statement, I should have went on air, I should have made a video.

[1267] because the public would have known, the survivors would have known, everybody would have known exactly and equivocally where we stood.

[1268] We ain't never been doing no shit like this before.

[1269] Never.

[1270] Do we make bad decisions?

[1271] Poor decisions?

[1272] Yes.

[1273] I take responsibility and accountability for it.

[1274] Yes.

[1275] Should I said something that day?

[1276] That day I should have said something on every platform.

[1277] I didn't.

[1278] I've missed an opportunity.

[1279] People want to hear from Converge.

[1280] And this is what I realized.

[1281] now after the fact, right?

[1282] Because my whole thing was, okay, people want to hear from Converg.

[1283] People want to hear from Converg.

[1284] No, people wanted to hear from Omari.

[1285] People wanted to hear me like they hear me right now.

[1286] And I missed an opportunity for people to hear me because I was worried about people hearing from Converge and everything has to be put in the proper statement and the proper this and that or whatever.

[1287] If people would have just heard my voice then and said like, yo, this shit ain't okay with me. This isn't all right.

[1288] We didn't know this guy was getting down like this.

[1289] He's out of here.

[1290] To this day, I'll still regret that on that same day where John Mitchell reached out that I didn't say something, and I didn't intend or mean to disappoint nobody.

[1291] I didn't intend to let nobody down.

[1292] I didn't intend for people to feel like we don't care.

[1293] Like I said, we never got with no shit like this before.

[1294] I mean, the police gas, I know how to.

[1295] deal with that.

[1296] All the crazy stuff that went down during the protests and other things, I know how to deal with that.

[1297] We were sitting there in shock and all.

[1298] And I didn't know how to translate that.

[1299] I'm sorry, because that wasn't a true representation of how I felt or how I feel.

[1300] I didn't realize his desk cam until after he was fired and we were trying to clear out his things.

[1301] I guess he probably had this camera the whole time, even back in the previous studio.

[1302] It's like a small pin camera, there's tucked away and all the different things on his desk.

[1303] The thing is, you can imagine in a studio, we got Hall of cameras.

[1304] Clearly the cameras that we do TV with, but hella security cameras.

[1305] Jake was the only person who had a desk desk.

[1306] I mean, everybody had a desk there, but like all of his stuff was on a desk.

[1307] So it's cameras and lenses and books and what do you call them, Zen gardens and votive candles or sending candles, incense, vinyl records.

[1308] It was a lot of stuff like everybody else would just come in and it was like a hot desk.

[1309] I don't remember this whole going off, but I don't doubt it either.

[1310] 100%.

[1311] I do know that when he would sit there, he would definitely make a big deal if anything was touched.

[1312] I didn't make no excuses for shit.

[1313] And yeah, that's all true.

[1314] I did tell people, don't touch his desk, man. I would say just like that.

[1315] Jake and what he's done and everything else don't represent none of our values.

[1316] In regards to the passport, at the time, I really thought that I was being helpful.

[1317] I know, to me personally, like in my neighborhood, I know more than enough women who the father is either not giving no support, behind our support, and everything else.

[1318] So I know like that part of it, right?

[1319] And so when the whole thing about passport came up and they was like, he needs to make substantial payments on the passport, I'm thinking to myself, well, good.

[1320] That means that he's going to be paying a larger amount on his child support, which is a good thing because they need the support.

[1321] I'm all 100 % about being compliant, people paying their child support and everything else.

[1322] So for me, I'm like, oh, okay, he's got to pay his child support.

[1323] he had to make two lump sum payments against his child support, and then a passport came out.

[1324] Now, in talking to them, of course, it was a different perspective, but that's what I was thinking at the time.

[1325] I wasn't thinking like, oh, how do I outsmart somebody or doing this and that?

[1326] I go back home every night to my neighborhood, to my people.

[1327] I know the kind of struggles, especially these women have raising these babies out here, and they're not getting any kind of support.

[1328] I do remember Jake mentioning more than a few times.

[1329] the Tinder app and things like that.

[1330] That app, I heard about that app.

[1331] I wouldn't say like all the time or something like that.

[1332] But definitely, you talked about the tender or people were like, oh, Jake, man, he's probably on Tinder.

[1333] For me, I tell the guys, no protest hookups.

[1334] I was clear it's not okay for a lot of different reasons.

[1335] It's real fucked up to find out during the time of civil unrest and everything else, the Jake was trading on the converged day and basically using that to meet people and connect with it and hook up for a lot of different reasons don't use this civil unrest don't use what's going on here to hook up with nobody don't do anything with anybody and definitely don't be out there using the converged name or position or anything else to endear people it was discussed in converging media officers and overheard by this co -worker that jacobron was in the voyeuristic pornography, but that it was portrayed as consensual.

[1336] I'm not into any kind of pornography and the voyeuristic.

[1337] I'm now just getting an understanding of what that is.

[1338] And yeah, that shit's not okay.

[1339] I don't doubt if somebody is saying that it was discussed there, I don't doubt that that's probably something that he said.

[1340] I will say this is I'm not all right with that.

[1341] Nothing about me, my character, anybody I've ever dated or anything at all.

[1342] It says that me being okay with something like, that now that I realize what voyeuristic pornography is.

[1343] If it was mentioned there at that time, that shit's not okay.

[1344] You know, like I said, I just had to get an understanding right now what foyeristic pornography is.

[1345] I don't live in that world.

[1346] That's the kind of things that were somebody like me. I put my hands on somebody.

[1347] Do some forioristic pornography with my daughter or something like that and see what happens.

[1348] So that shit's not okay.

[1349] And if it was said there at that time, I just ain't know what it was.

[1350] Jake and Omari are still friends behind closed doors and still using Jake's footage.

[1351] No. One of the things, it's been a challenge, is actually scrubbing all of his stuff off of our websites, off of our social platforms, and everything else.

[1352] We're not collecting, we're not shooting, we're not working with anything with Jake.

[1353] And people also got to remember when you say Jake's footage, it's not anything that Jake was doing outside of his shows when he was on assignment.

[1354] That was stuff that was shot for Converge or for client.

[1355] Jake, like so many other people that are on Converge, our content creators, when he was there, it was part of Converge.

[1356] We're all about the uplift.

[1357] We're all about uplifting content creators.

[1358] We're all about getting content out there.

[1359] And it's, fuck, he was the wrong guy to be uplifted.

[1360] We didn't know that at the time.

[1361] I was like, oh, I have a travel show.

[1362] Oh, okay, great, man. This is cool.

[1363] Let's put this on air.

[1364] We didn't realize who we were uplifting.

[1365] I don't want people to walk away thinking.

[1366] that it's like, oh, yeah, by the way, he was just there, this show, nah, man, that's not it.

[1367] What I meant by that was that we uplift all the work of the people who are out there creating.

[1368] Clearly, if we would have known what this guy was doing and what he was up to and everything else, there's no way that he would have been part of our platform, part of anything, we wouldn't have uplifted anything about it.

[1369] First and foremost, to the survivors that are out there, especially the ones we had talk to our community, a larger community as a whole.

[1370] We've said this before in statements, we didn't handle this response the best way.

[1371] We disappointed our community in the response.

[1372] This was something that we had never encountered before.

[1373] I take full responsibility for that.

[1374] For survivors that are out there, they deserve accountability all the way across.

[1375] I'm glad that you contacted me. I'm glad to have this opportunity to be able to speak on this and to be able to clarify some things, justice needs to be served.

[1376] We're here for that.

[1377] What Jake is done to these survivors, to people in this business, people in the community, there's so much trust that Jake had to the fact that he used our name, he's just dropped a bomb on everybody.

[1378] We're all here trying to pick up the pieces.

[1379] I really want for the survivors to know we're here.

[1380] I want everybody to know that Jake and who he is and what he did has nothing with our values of who we are as people and as a company.

[1381] He's damaged.

[1382] So many people he's harmed.

[1383] So many people, I would say this, is that in talking with you more and also continuing to learn more of the depth of this situation.

[1384] If I would like an opportunity, if people are open for it, if anybody feels that they haven't been heard or heard correctly, if there's anything that we can do to be supportive in this entire situation, I'm here for it.

[1385] We're here for it.

[1386] We want to be able to play our part in whatever that we can do in this situation.

[1387] We're here for it.

[1388] Trying to uplift the voices of black folk, That was our only goal.

[1389] And Jake Grabrock comes over here and just, like I said, it explodes a bomb.

[1390] Man, we've been about our community from Jump.

[1391] That's what we've been about is our community.

[1392] And this dude comes over here and uses us, uses all of our people, uses our organization, uses our platform, uses us.

[1393] And what was a hole before he came is in pieces.

[1394] We're on the casualty list.

[1395] But, man, what he did is unforgivable.

[1396] And for sure, we want justice for anybody that he has impacted for survivors that are out there.

[1397] And like I said, man, we're here for it.

[1398] To people out there offer a sincere apology, we stand with them.

[1399] We're not standing with no goddamn Jake.

[1400] We're not working with no damn Jake.

[1401] And we're here for the accountability of wherever.

[1402] my go.

[1403] If anybody does want to talk, then I'm here for it.

[1404] Next time, on the season 14 finale of something was wrong.

[1405] Hi, this is Detective to Seattle Police Department, returning your call.

[1406] Hi, this message is for Tiffany Reeves.

[1407] I'm an attorney and I represent Jake Gravrodot.

[1408] And I'm calling your response to your message that you sent him regarding a documentary that you are putting together.

[1409] Thank you for calling the FBI.

[1410] May I please have your first and last name?

[1411] Hello, my name is Tiffany Reese, R -E -E -E -E -S -E.

[1412] Thank you so much for listening.

[1413] Until next time, stay safe, friends.

[1414] Something Was Wrong is a broken cycle media production, created and hosted by me, Tiffany Reese.

[1415] If you'd like to support the show further, you can share episodes with your loved ones, leave a positive review, or follow Something Was Wrong on Instagram, at Something Was Wrong podcast.

[1416] Our theme song was composed by Glad rags.

[1417] Check out their album, Wonder Under.

[1418] Thank you so much.

[1419] If you like something was wrong, you can listen early and ad -free right now by joining Wondery Plus in the Wondery app or on Apple Podcasts.

[1420] Prime members can listen ad -free on Amazon Music.

[1421] Before you go, tell us about yourself by filling out a short survey at Wondery .com slash survey.