#255 – Mark Normand: Comedy!

[0] The following is a conversation with Mark Norman, a New York comedian who has a way with words that is often both dark and hilarious.

[1] Let that be a warning, dear friends, to proceed with caution and to wear protection.

[2] You may, in fact, need it.

[3] He has a special on his YouTube called Out to Lunch and a new special on Netflix as part of the stand -up season three series I recommend you watch.

[4] And now a quick two -second mention of his sponsor.

[5] Check them out in the description.

[6] way to support this podcast.

[7] First is calm, a meditation app.

[8] Second is Inside Tracker, a service I used to track my biological data.

[9] Third is On It, a nutrition supplement and fitness company.

[10] Fourth is Grammarly, a service I use to check spelling, grammar, and readability.

[11] And fifth is Rocha, my favorite sunglasses and prescription glasses.

[12] So the choice is health, eloquence, or style.

[13] choose wise than my friends and now on to the full ad reads as always no ads in the middle I try to make these interesting but if you skip them please still check out the sponsors I enjoy their stuff maybe you will too this show is brought to you by Calm a meditation and mental wellness app over 100 million people around the world use Calm to take care of their minds you may hear in my voice a bit of a melancholy tone I've been going through some rough times that's how life is there's ups and downs sometimes it's just even throughout the day hour to hour minute to minute and you just got to write it sometimes during a bit of the low times you have to do an ad read like i'm doing now and it's all okay it's all great and i think guided meditation meditation in general, is a great way to reflect on that up and down of life, to breathe, to find yourself, to find your breath, to find your mind, in the time of trouble, in the time of chaos, and the time of sadness, in the time of ecstatic bliss, to find a calmness.

[14] Anyway, if you go to calm .com slash Lex, you get a limited time offer 40 % off a Calm premium subscription, which includes hundreds of hours of programming.

[15] Once again, that's calm .com slash Lex.

[16] Calm, like, C -A -L -M dot com slash Lex.

[17] This show is also brought to you by Inside Tracker, a service I use to track biological data.

[18] They have a bunch of plans, most of which include a blood test that give you a lot of information that you can then make decisions based on.

[19] They have algorithms that analyze your blood data, DNA data, and fitness tracker data, you with a clear picture of what's going on inside you and offer your science -backed recommendations for positive diet and lifestyle changes.

[20] Andrew Huberman talks a lot about it.

[21] He uses it.

[22] He recommends it.

[23] David Sinclair as well.

[24] They actually had a conversation together recently on the Huberman Lab podcast that you should definitely listen to.

[25] Anyway, in terms of Insight Tracker, I love this idea.

[26] It feels like the future.

[27] Why the heck would you be making decisions for your lifestyle, for your health based on kind of generic population data.

[28] It should be based on your unique longitudinal data measured over time.

[29] It's obvious.

[30] And it's sad that it's not done widespread and it's obvious to me that's going to be done in the future.

[31] So Inside Tracker is the right tool to sort of step into the future with.

[32] For a limited time, you can get 25 % off the entire InsideTracker store if you go to insidetracker .com slash Lex.

[33] That's InsideTracker .com slash Lex.

[34] This episode is brought to you by Onet, Nutrition, Supplement, and Fitness Company.

[35] They make Alpha Brain, which is a neutropic that helps support memory, mental speed, and focus.

[36] I use it as a boost when thinking through a difficult problem, when stepping into a deep work session, and I know it's going to be an especially, whether it's design, whether it's programming, whether it's thinking through a difficult problem.

[37] if I know it's going to be a rough one.

[38] And by rough, I mean, there's a lot of dead ends.

[39] We have to go down a particular trajectory, and then there's going to be a dead end.

[40] You have to backtrack.

[41] That's just such a frustrating process.

[42] So to maintain focus, to maintain clarity of thinking and a patience, it just helps me to take an alpha brain in those cases.

[43] I don't rely on it.

[44] I take it when I need that extra super boost.

[45] Clear the mind helps maintain.

[46] focus.

[47] Anyway, go to lexfidman .com slash on it to get up to 10 % off alpha brain.

[48] That's lexfidman .com slash on it.

[49] This show is brought to you by Grammarly, a writing assistant tool that checks spelling, grammar, sentence, structure, and readability.

[50] Grammarly premium, the version you pay for, and then one they really hope you sign up for, offers a bunch of extra features.

[51] My favorite is a clarity check, which helps detect rambling overcomplicated chaos that many of us can descend to.

[52] Whenever I mention this part, I usually love to bring up James Joyce, one of the greatest writers of the 20th century, the author of Ulysses and Finnegan's Wake, both books that I've read and understood none of.

[53] In contrast, the short stories by James Joyce, I think it's called the dead.

[54] So the dead is the final short story in the book of short stories that's called the dead.

[55] Those are understandable and those are brilliant.

[56] One of my favorite short stories ever is the dead.

[57] I should probably talk about it at some point.

[58] It has love, it has jealousy.

[59] It is that melancholy feeling when you ponder the passing of all the millions of lives around you, plus nature.

[60] Something about snow and pausing to reflect.

[61] on life in a melancholy way.

[62] Robert Frost with the stopping in the woods and a snowy evening.

[63] Is that the right name?

[64] Miles to go before I sleep.

[65] Miles to go before I sleep.

[66] I remember spending quite a long time interpreting that poem.

[67] It's a powerful one.

[68] Anyway, Grammarly is available on basically any platform in major sites and apps.

[69] Do more than just spell check.

[70] Get your point across more effectively.

[71] Like Robert Frost versus James Joyce with Gramerly Premium.

[72] Get 20 % off Grammally Premium by signing up at grammerty .com slash Lex.

[73] That's 20 % off at Gramerly .com slash Lex.

[74] This show is also brought to you by Roka, the makers of glasses and sunglasses that I love wearing for their design, feel, and innovation on material optics and grips, but most importantly is that they're super sexy.

[75] Function is one thing, but sex appeal is another.

[76] Roka was started by two all -American swimmers from Stanford, and was born out of an obsession with performance.

[77] Two words I love, obsession and performance.

[78] I actually met one of said swimmers.

[79] Rob, they have an amazing facility here in Austin.

[80] He's an incredible human being.

[81] Just, I don't know, one of those people that just brings a smile to your face.

[82] So much energy.

[83] Also is just a fun person.

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[85] That's roca .com and enter code Lex.

[86] This is the Lex Friedman podcast, and here is my conversation with Mark Norman.

[87] I asked Tim Dillon about Bukowski first, so let me continue on that tradition and ask you about something that Charles Bukovsky said about love.

[88] Wait, are we rolling?

[89] Yes.

[90] Oh, geez.

[91] No, hello.

[92] No. No, nothing.

[93] Nope.

[94] I thought I was robotic.

[95] Bukowski said, love is a fog that burns away with the first daylight of reality.

[96] So, Mark Norman, let me first ask you about love.

[97] What are your thoughts about love?

[98] You talk about your relationships quite a bit.

[99] Do you think love can last?

[100] I do, but I think it's work.

[101] Everybody wants love to be this pre -packaged, perfect, euphoric thing, but you've got to it's like a good body you know we're all born with a good body but you got to keep it in shape and it's the same with a loving relationship i think you uh nobody wants to do the work that's the problem you talked about i think you told a story about being unfaithful to a previous girlfriend or something like that i think the story goes that you were like drifting apart who are you talking to bert crusher maybe or something something like that yeah we were high school sweetheart's dated for like 12 years and then so that wasn't love anymore that was more like relation that was like it was comfort it was routine and uh we just slipped into that kind of married life autopilot world and uh i tried to break up i think and it didn't take was one of those things our lives are just so baked in and then i think i uh cheated and she caught me and it was ugly and then we went to therapy to try to work it out but it's it's much like a car that gets into a wreck the door just never close the same you know what I mean yeah so what do you thoughts about then commitment like outside of love marriage I think it's an antiquated idea I think it's kind of silly and unrealistic and I think we're coming out of that as we get all polyamorous and non -binary and quefy and all this stuff I think we're slowly moving away from that but I think a lot of the ladies more majority women like marriage like the idea of it like I'm gonna I'm I'm a fiancé now, or whatever you call it.

[102] I'm engaged.

[103] And, I mean, she is just, woo -wee, going hog wild.

[104] She's loving it.

[105] She's got the dress thing, pick a venue, flower, and she's deep in, whereas I feel guilty because I'm just like, ah, geez.

[106] Is it planned already?

[107] When's the wedding?

[108] You see Squid Game?

[109] I'm just living life.

[110] Yeah.

[111] It's planned.

[112] It's in New Orleans.

[113] I'm from there.

[114] And it's next year.

[115] Are you married?

[116] No, single.

[117] Virgin?

[118] Of course, yeah.

[119] I can't imagine.

[120] I bet you'd be great in bed.

[121] You're ripped.

[122] I had the best hairline in podcasting.

[123] Yeah, I don't know.

[124] I haven't tried yet, so we'll have to see.

[125] All right, well, let me know.

[126] Pretty big hog on you?

[127] Yeah, I could see you packing a crazy, crazy tool downtown.

[128] Mm -hmm.

[129] Does that matters for girls?

[130] Apparently, yeah, that's all I hear about.

[131] Okay, New Orleans.

[132] You grew up in New Orleans?

[133] Yeah, born and raised.

[134] Tremay, outside the French Quarter.

[135] You ever been?

[136] Yeah, I don't remember it.

[137] Oh, you drink?

[138] Yeah, I drink.

[139] Of course I drink.

[140] I don't know.

[141] I can't tell if you have fun.

[142] No, not really, but Russian, I mean, Russian, of course, I drink vodka, all that kind of stuff.

[143] Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[144] I don't know.

[145] vodka.

[146] Beer was just labeled an alcoholic beverage in 2011.

[147] Fun fact.

[148] What do you mean?

[149] In Russia.

[150] It was just drinks.

[151] It was just like apple juice before.

[152] It finally got declared legally as an alcoholic beverage.

[153] Which means you can regulate it, that kind of thing.

[154] I guess so.

[155] See, that's where your brain goes.

[156] Yeah, yeah.

[157] I just go out of these fucking Ruskis.

[158] I didn't even know there's rules about drinking.

[159] This is good.

[160] I'm learning about Russia from you.

[161] So what's the difficult memory experience from childhood in New Orleans that made you the man you are today?

[162] I don't know if it made me the man, but geez, I had a lot of scuffles in the neighborhood.

[163] I was the white kid in the neighborhood.

[164] So I was automatically the odd man out, the minority, the weirdo, the dork, the dweeb, the honky.

[165] So just a lot of memories of like getting slapped in the face by guys and just having to take it because there's like five guys there.

[166] And they'd be like, oh, look, you don't even fight back.

[167] And you're like, what am I going to do?

[168] Hit you and then get beat up by these guys.

[169] So a lot of that stuff was a big bummer growing up, got robbed all the time, lost a lot of bicycles.

[170] had a bicycle taken from under me that was pretty brutal these kids pulled up they're like 17 and I was 13 and I had a face paint on like I had a not black face but I was at a summer camp and I had a rainbow face painted on me we were helping kids that day so I let them put pain on me and so now I'm riding home what a mark what a what a gober I am I'm riding home and these guys see me a mile away I'm a sitting duck and they go we can take his bike He's got a fucking rainbow on his cheek.

[171] So they just go, hey, you know, like, cut in front of you.

[172] They go, let me try your bike.

[173] I go, I'm good, I'm good.

[174] I knew what they wanted.

[175] And they go, let me try the bike.

[176] And then they just pushed me and took the bike.

[177] So stuff like that was really shaping the insecurity, the self -worth.

[178] They did.

[179] Because I've been mugged when I was younger, too.

[180] Really?

[181] Yeah, it changes your view of human nature a little bit.

[182] For sure.

[183] You go, wow, I didn't know people could be this mean, this cool, inconsiderate.

[184] I'm always worried about it.

[185] Did I fart too much?

[186] Am I annoying?

[187] Am I pissing this guy off?

[188] But what a way to live.

[189] Just, I want the bike.

[190] I'm taking it.

[191] Fuck his feelings.

[192] For me, that quickly turned into realizing that that's just a temporary phase that those folks are in.

[193] Like, they have a capacity to be good.

[194] Sure.

[195] For some reason, for me, that was a motivation to see, can we?

[196] discover can can we incentivize them to find like a better path in life like i i wasn't like all like i don't know gondy about it you know of course i was pissed and all those kinds of things but i don't know it seemed like just the kind of thing you might do when you're younger you hope but this adult crime obviously yeah i know but yeah exactly and then it solidifies and then you're beyond saving at some point but it's like there's always there's always an opportunity to make a better life for yourself, to become a better version of yourself.

[197] Yeah, and I remember coming home crying with no bike.

[198] And my mom, my parents are like liberal to a fault, you know, where they were like, oh, well, they need it.

[199] They're poor kids in the neighborhood.

[200] And you're like, all right.

[201] But I also have a bicycle that I ride around, you know.

[202] And I also like to live in an area that's not just, you know, riddled with theft and vandalism, but they were just like, ah, they need it.

[203] And then it was a moot point.

[204] We just moved on.

[205] So I remember very young being like, all right, I got to figure my shit out.

[206] Okay.

[207] So you said you were beat up quite a bit, like bullying and stuff?

[208] Pushed around.

[209] I was never hospitalized or anything, but you know, you get a black guy here and there and a bloody nose, stuff like that.

[210] And it was just the outnumbered thing.

[211] The violence didn't really bother me because you're just kids, your boys.

[212] Yeah.

[213] But it was the, predatory let's get them you know we can take him down he's you know he's an easy target that's what kills you yeah the mental part yeah you know until you actually said i didn't realize i've been in what do you call them scuffles and uh there's just one that stands out to me where yeah let's hear it faddy bring it on and you do jiu jitsu and all that stuff right yeah i can see the guns through the suit you like john wick all right uh all right well i used to have Now you're going to start making fun of me. I used to have long hair for like a couple of years.

[214] It was in a band playing music and stuff like that.

[215] And there was, like, most of the fights I've been in were basically one -on -one, maybe a little bit like a little extra stuff, but not outnumbered.

[216] And this one particular time, I've learned a lot of lessons, but one of them was there was a fight started between me and this other person.

[217] And then his buddies, I guess, were there.

[218] Uh -oh.

[219] And they, as opposed to, like, breaking it up or letting it happen, one of them grabbed my hair.

[220] It's the first time anybody grabbed, like, used my hair in a fight, which I've since then realized that that's actually a really powerful grip and a powerful weapon.

[221] Oh, very vulnerable of you.

[222] And then my head got pulled back and they pulled me down to the guard.

[223] Like, I couldn't do anything.

[224] It was so, I remember being exceptionally frustrated.

[225] Yes.

[226] That was the feeling like I can't do anything here.

[227] I'm like trapped.

[228] And then they were just like, yeah, kicking me and hitting me and stuff like that.

[229] And the outnumbered part of it, because I always kind of remember the trapped part because I just hated from a fighting, grappling perspective, how like, the feeling was this isn't fair.

[230] Yes, that's what it is.

[231] It's a deep, deep unfairness that you just can't, you can't win.

[232] The mob wins.

[233] Yeah, the mob wins.

[234] Scary stuff.

[235] But it makes a man out of it a weird way.

[236] that builds character, you realize life isn't fair early, and you go on from there.

[237] So it's something there.

[238] And look at you today.

[239] They're probably, you know, eating out of a dumpster at a crispy cream, and you're here, got eight podcasts, you're doing great, talking to giant titans of the industry.

[240] No, I do remember returning home that night.

[241] I mean, you said you were crying.

[242] That's really formative.

[243] Oh, yeah.

[244] That's the point in which you get to decide, what do I make of this moment?

[245] I mean, especially when you're younger, maybe it's not presented.

[246] to you that way, but, like, some of the greatest people in history were bullied in these kinds of ways, and they made something of themselves in this moment.

[247] Like, bullied by life in some kind of way.

[248] It's, it's like an opportunity for growth.

[249] It's weird, but, like, hardship, even in small doses, is like an opportunity for growth.

[250] Totally.

[251] I mean, look at Richard Pryor.

[252] They say he's labeled as the best comedian of all time.

[253] Grew up in a whorehouse, watch his mom get plowed by these guys in the middle of Indiana, I want to say.

[254] And just who had a harder life?

[255] Who would suck dick for drugs, all this stuff growing up, beat up.

[256] And then the weird thing is, oops, sorry, that's my birth control alarm.

[257] And then the whole world is like trying to get rid of bullying, but we still do bullying, but now it's accepted bullying.

[258] It's very strange.

[259] So you're a proponent of beating kids up?

[260] Is that we sure?

[261] Yes.

[262] And sex with them.

[263] All right.

[264] but no I just think it's part of life and it's horrible it's like rain you gotta have it look a rainy day is a bummer you know but you need it and I think it's similar to that what was your relationship like with your mom and your dad what are some memorable moments with them what did you learn from them good parents the giving thoughtful a little out to lunch you know they were workaholics So it was hard to get a lot out of them.

[265] And my dad was kind of an angry dad.

[266] I think he just had like a weird childhood.

[267] And he's just trying to make it.

[268] And he's trying to provide, but it's hard.

[269] And we live in this horrible neighborhood.

[270] And we're getting robbed all the time.

[271] So life was kind of coming down on him all the time.

[272] So then he'll take it out on you or whoever.

[273] He would snap.

[274] But great parents, they cared.

[275] They put us first.

[276] But there wasn't a lot of...

[277] I don't know, you ever go to a friend's house as a kid, and there's like a picture of a ski trip, and you're like, ski trip, what the hell is that about, you know?

[278] It wasn't out of that, and smart, very smart people, but I don't know how well they were at socializing.

[279] So you never, like, bonded with them, like, on a deep human level.

[280] There was some bonding, but rarely deep.

[281] Yeah, it was just, almost coworker.

[282] Hey, cold out.

[283] Huh?

[284] What?

[285] It's cold out, huh?

[286] Oh, yeah, like that kind of stuff.

[287] Yeah, yeah, yeah, got you.

[288] Get there a little bit, but it was just, it.

[289] They would, my parents are done, I hope they never said this.

[290] But they would do a thing where, my dad especially would do a thing where he would, he knew how to cut you down, right to the bone.

[291] And so after a while, you're like, I'm not even going to interact with this guy because he can get you so well.

[292] One time we were at a Thanksgiving, some kind of family event.

[293] And all the cousins are there.

[294] And I remember I was holding court.

[295] I was a young boy finding my comedic legs in this weird tumultuous sea, we call a family.

[296] And I was killing.

[297] And, um, my dad comes out when he goes, what are you holding court?

[298] And I was like, eh, and I felt like I was this big.

[299] I just, whoo, shrunk down.

[300] He just nailed it.

[301] Because in my head, I'm like, I'm holding court.

[302] Look at me. I got the whole room.

[303] And he goes, what are you?

[304] What are you holding court here?

[305] Like, who the hell do you think you are?

[306] And I was like, he's right.

[307] I shouldn't be holding court.

[308] Who the fuck am I?

[309] I'm nobody.

[310] So, uh, stuff like that.

[311] Was he aware of that you think?

[312] He wasn't.

[313] He wasn't.

[314] He wasn't.

[315] I don't think he was, but.

[316] Do you, do you give, um, parents a pass when they're, unaware of the destructive like is it better when they're unaware because it seems like that's the way that's true that's the way the way parents often fail is they're not intentionally malevolent they're just like clueless yeah it's a bittersweet thing because you're like well okay he's not malicious he's not trying to hurt me but also he doesn't know he hurt me i don't know it's it's tough because if he was trying to hurt you i guess that would be worse So you're the fully baked Mark Norman cake at this point.

[317] Yeah, it's a shitty cake.

[318] Do you, um...

[319] Fruit salad.

[320] You know, the sense of self -worth you mentioned.

[321] I think in your comedy, there's a sense like you hate yourself.

[322] You think?

[323] I didn't know if that came through.

[324] Shit, I was trying to hide that part.

[325] God damn it.

[326] I mean, when you, like, in the privacy of your own mind, are you able to love yourself, or is it mostly self -hate?

[327] geez what happened to this podcast i didn't know i was on uh mr or dr phil dr phil i thought we were going to talk about engineering and and climate change and rockets uh we'll get there okay starts with love goes to rockets all right i like that i like that's a t -shirt um i mean like what's the question sorry do i feel love no no like uh i love myself yeah yeah so are you um of being self -critical, of just being constantly anxious about how the world perceives you, these kinds of things.

[328] Is this something that you just go to for comedy, or is this who you are as a human being?

[329] I think I don't want to explore it.

[330] I think I get around it.

[331] You know, I tap dance around it, but I get it out a little with my act, maybe.

[332] Because I can't do it.

[333] I'm not doing it in real life, so I'll get out this no love, not loving myself.

[334] I don't know.

[335] Who wants to love themselves?

[336] Everybody always like, you got to love yourself.

[337] And then when you meet somebody who does love yourself, you're like, I fucking hate this guy.

[338] Don't you hate the guy who's upset?

[339] I'm great.

[340] I'm awesome.

[341] Life is good.

[342] You're like, ah, this guy sucks.

[343] I'd rather an insecure guy.

[344] So maybe I want to stay insecure.

[345] Maybe I don't want to find this love for myself.

[346] Well, okay.

[347] So self love, like just appreciating who you are or like appreciating the moment or being grateful doesn't have to express itself by the guy saying, I'm awesome.

[348] True.

[349] It's more just like humility.

[350] It's just like walking calmly through the world and just being grateful to be alive, that kind of thing.

[351] And just, like, being appreciative of all the accomplishments you made so far.

[352] I say all this because mostly I'm extremely self -critical and everything I do.

[353] And so, and I kind of enjoy it.

[354] I think it's a nice little engine that it makes it fun.

[355] It makes life fun because it's like if you hate everything you do, like you've done in the past, that gives you like, all right, we can do better.

[356] Yes, but that's the key is making itself critical.

[357] Always trying to get better.

[358] I can change this.

[359] I can tweak this.

[360] I can improve this.

[361] When you just go, I hate that I do this, I suck.

[362] You just shut down.

[363] So that's the key is always being productive with the criticism.

[364] Yeah, and the basics of life.

[365] I'm just grateful for it to be alive.

[366] That's nice to be a couple of that with self -criticism.

[367] Again, the hairline, the hog, the muscles, the world.

[368] You got a good brain?

[369] on you.

[370] I mean, you're lucky.

[371] You're in the top, you know, most people are fat as shit at Burger King right now hitting their kids.

[372] You're in a Ramada hotel sitting with, you know, a low -level comedian.

[373] For the record, I ate McDonald's last night.

[374] Oh, all right, well, you're human.

[375] Well, just so you know, this is not me defending.

[376] I'm not sponsored by McDonald's, but I mostly eat meat and there's nothing wrong with the beef they have.

[377] It's actually one of the easiest ways late at night.

[378] I think it's horse.

[379] I don't know if it's actually cats.

[380] It's actually rats.

[381] Yeah, you're right.

[382] But hey, it's just meat.

[383] I'm a meat guy myself.

[384] They say in 20 years we're going to look back and go, can you believe people ate meat?

[385] It's going to be like slavery.

[386] Yeah, there's some ethical, difficult things with factory farming.

[387] Yeah, so let's ride it out now while we still got it.

[388] And now it's on record.

[389] Tom Waits says something about New York.

[390] You like Tom Waits?

[391] I think he's underrated.

[392] I think he's got great.

[393] He's great at quips and quotes.

[394] Check him out on YouTube.

[395] He's got some montages and supercuts of him being hilarious.

[396] What does he say about?

[397] I'd rather have a bottle in front of me than a frontal lobotomy.

[398] That was the one.

[399] That was the one that sold me. I was like, this guy's awesome.

[400] Yeah.

[401] But his music is just a genius musician.

[402] Yeah.

[403] Anyway, he was talking about New York.

[404] I was walking around these.

[405] I'm in New York right now.

[406] we're in New York right now.

[407] It's still a magical city to me. A lot of people are quite cynical about it, about the state of things.

[408] But not like Michael Malice, like a lot of friends of mine, they're just a lot of folks, I mean, San Francisco and New York, there's something about the pandemic where people have become quite cynical about the place they are and they try to escape.

[409] It's interesting.

[410] I mean, they're asking some difficult questions about where they are in life.

[411] They're having like a self -imposed midlife crisis.

[412] It's good, I think, for everybody to go through this problem.

[413] process, but I think, I hope New York re -emerges as the flourishing place for the weirdos.

[414] Anyway, Tom Waits said, New York, of course, is to be in endless, surreal situations where a $50 ,000 gunmetal Mercedes pulls up in a puddle of blood and outsteps a 25 -carad blonde with a $2 wrist watch.

[415] And he keeps going on.

[416] So it's like, um...

[417] That's like bars.

[418] He's like a rap.

[419] Yeah, yeah, he's good.

[420] But basically, just the absurdity of it all.

[421] Lots of money, lots of weirdos, degenerates and dreamers and the whole mix of it.

[422] Do you think that's an accurate description of what New York is today?

[423] Like, is there still plays for the weirdos and just the interesting artists, the edgy, the comedians, the creators, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, um, the, the, the, the, the, the, um, the, the, the, the, the, the.

[424] entrepreneurs like as opposed to like wall street as opposed to like rich folk and then like hopeless folk yeah i think it's definitely changed a lot there's a there's a tiny corner for us weirdo artists new york used to be where you went to make it as a painter or whatever a comedian or a singer and there were all these dives and shitboxes and all these places you could go and now there's now it's more pink berries and subway sandwiches and chase banks so it's definitely lost a lot of its creative edge.

[425] It's just money.

[426] Money keeps coming in.

[427] And now you see all these comedians move to Nashville, Austin, Denver, whatever.

[428] So it doesn't have the power it used to have of like, you got to be here if you want to make it.

[429] That's definitely gone.

[430] So that hurt the city a lot.

[431] The city is way more soulless.

[432] When I moved here in 07, I mean, not only did I get mugged three times in the first year but it was a hub of like it felt like things were happening here you know it was it was an energy it was electricity and we still have the electricity but it's also maybe just because it's time square there's soho there's uh wall street so we got the staples but there is a little bit of that it's almost like a marriage like yeah we're in love but it's not as passionate as it once was that's how i would equate new york what gives you hope you're pretty hopeful about it though I'm hopeful just because I know it's magical And I think it has to be I mean it's the epicenter of America Like this is where the immigrants came And this is where the stock market is And the entertainment industry A lot of it is here So I think it's It's gonna happen But something like the bottom has to fall out And then people have to move back here And all that So something The corporations are kind of fucking us They're just buying everything Well that's true for everything That's true for us It's true for Austin probably as well.

[433] People are just buying out land and all that kind of stuff.

[434] You always hear of Hemingway and Dali and all these guys went to Paris in the 20s or whatever that was.

[435] I get it now.

[436] I just be like, why do these guys go to Paris?

[437] You know, why are these artists?

[438] And now I get it because it's like, it's freer there.

[439] That's why Austin became like that Paris, where everybody's like, I got to get out of L .A. I'm going there.

[440] And, but we came back from that, you know, the 70s were wild and 90s were.

[441] cool so maybe it'll come back might just take a decade well there's always that's how stories are told there's always pockets of like Paris within New York right true there's just an opportunity to let your weird flourish is there in New York I'm sure they're I mean it's there you got to find it before it was front and center what's your favorite thing about New York like what kind of things just like I mean how long is it's pod.

[442] I could go on.

[443] It's too much to put into one hour.

[444] We've got other questions, but I love that one neighborhood is wildly different than the next.

[445] I'm in little Italy, and then you take four steps.

[446] Now I'm in Chinatown.

[447] I mean, and then the history there, and then the stories and the food and the culture and all that.

[448] And then you go 10 feet over here.

[449] Now you're in Brooklyn, and this is insane.

[450] It's a whole other world.

[451] And it's almost like a little America in one, you know, a city.

[452] And it's great.

[453] And just the fact that they pulled it off.

[454] Like Fifth Avenue goes way up.

[455] And you're like, there's a billionaire's house next to a hobo.

[456] And then this is a black guy who's fighting with a Cuban guy and an Asian guy's trying to get in the middle of them and the cabby's from the Middle East.

[457] And there's so many beautiful women here.

[458] And there's so many brilliant minds here.

[459] And the pace is great.

[460] It keeps people moving.

[461] I mean, it just, you can't beat it.

[462] I mean, the city will fuck you in the ass, too.

[463] Don't get me wrong.

[464] You landed JFK and you're like, oh, God, I got mugged.

[465] My Uber driver called me a homo.

[466] I stepped in human shit.

[467] Where the fuck am I?

[468] So, yeah, it's bad news.

[469] But that bad news, it's almost like the bullying.

[470] It kills you in a weird way, but it makes you stronger and you build more layers and layers and layers.

[471] That's why some new guy, some hayseed from Milwaukee shows up, you've been here 10 years and you go, let me help you out because you're, you got to adjust.

[472] You're going to get your ass kicked for like six months.

[473] But I know the rope's a little, and I think you need a little of that.

[474] If the treadmill's not on, you're not going to run.

[475] New York, the treadmill's on.

[476] So it just makes you run, and it makes you better.

[477] And look, it wears on you.

[478] You probably lose 10 years of your life living in New York versus, you know, Indianapolis.

[479] But, you know, it's a better life.

[480] Have you seen 25th hour?

[481] Yeah, it's been a while.

[482] Spike Lee joint.

[483] Yeah, Spike Lee Joint.

[484] I mean, at Norton, there's a whole, like, monologue.

[485] there about New York.

[486] Oh, that's right.

[487] But they're talking about just, he has like a mix.

[488] There's like melancholy music, I think, or just a melancholy feel to the whole thing, but there's an anger and a disgust with the city.

[489] But through the anger and the disgust comes out like a love for the city.

[490] Same with, was taxi driver in New York?

[491] Oh, yeah.

[492] It's gorgeous crazy.

[493] Yeah, so like that, there's something about, what is that?

[494] What is that, that grit of the city, that, like, pushes you down.

[495] Well, that's the beauty of the city is.

[496] It's this tribal human nature, like the sex shops and fist fights and racism and all's tension, but yet it's the epicenter of technology and finance and sophistication on Fifth Avenue.

[497] So you get that juxtaposition.

[498] It's kind of like in Boston.

[499] You go to Boston, they got MIT, they got Harvard, they got all this shit.

[500] And then they got the fishermen, the blue -collar douchebags, the Irish guy, the immigrants, you know, and you get that mix of, like, insanely smart with wicked pissa and these two worlds, and that's a good thing.

[501] It's like when a black guy fucks an Asian lady, that's a good -looking kid.

[502] You get a mix.

[503] You know, we're mixing two totally different things are coming together, and it makes it, it's like peanut butter and chocolate.

[504] Peanut butter and chocolate, I've never tried that.

[505] What?

[506] Maybe I have.

[507] I'm talking about Reese's, man. Like Reese's, yeah, yeah.

[508] It's the best candy.

[509] Yeah.

[510] Without the fakeness of L .A., without the kind of, with the facade.

[511] Yeah, L .A .'s tough.

[512] What's the difference between L .A. comedy and New York comedy, too?

[513] I think one place you kind of go to make it and be discovered and be loved, and one place you go, you can get all that in New York, too, but I think in New York it's more of a school, a boot camp of comedy.

[514] let's make great comedy let's make original comedy let's watch the other guys and gals who are at the show at the clubs and learn from them and try to hang out with them and absorb some of them and in l .A it's like when am i on i'm next get out of my way i'm the star here i'm a bigger star than you oh this guy's actually a big star i got to outwork you know it's a lot of that instead of like damn that was funny i got to be that funny damn i wish i had a joke and look i don't want to speak for LA comics because there's, you know, Bill Burr, Anthony Jezzanek, these brilliant L .A. comic, but they all cut their teeth in New York, just saying, then they moved to L .A. It's a good point.

[515] You know, Ellie Wong, all these people, killer comics, but New York started New York, moved to New York.

[516] There is something about comics that stay in New York for a long time, though, like Dave Otho.

[517] Ah, you know about Dave?

[518] Yeah, yeah, he wants to do this podcast.

[519] He does?

[520] Yeah, I'm a huge fan of David Tyler.

[521] Wow.

[522] But it's like, it almost like he doesn't want to make it.

[523] I don't know.

[524] I mean, you probably know him, but like, it feels like you just, maybe it's romanticizing it, but you're like, you almost just love the art of comedy of like becoming funnier, crafting the jokes, becoming funnier than the other comics, like competing with each other kind of thing, not over like money or fame or any of that, just purely the comedy of it.

[525] Totally.

[526] That's Dave.

[527] That's him and a nut.

[528] He's like that guy in the movies and the 80s action movies where they're like, they go up to a creek in Montana and some guys living in a cabin and he's sharpening a stick and they go, the Russians are coming, they're invading, we need you, you're the best commando.

[529] And he's like, I gave that up, man, I'm done with that lifestyle.

[530] They're like, but you're the best, we need you.

[531] And he has to suit up eventually.

[532] You know, he looks at a picture of his dead wife and he goes, fuck it, I'm going.

[533] And then they, you know, fight the Ruskis.

[534] But he's that guy.

[535] He just is gifted.

[536] He's like got a gift from Allah, and he's the best.

[537] Yeah, a lot of comics give him props.

[538] It's so surprising to me. It's surprising to me because he hasn't really made it, like big.

[539] He did.

[540] In the 90s, he was huge.

[541] He had his own TV show.

[542] Yeah, yeah, that show was awesome.

[543] But I mean, like, as big as I think he deserves to be.

[544] Well, that's art. The mainstream shit is always the worst.

[545] It's like McDonald's versus some hole in the wall.

[546] I know I'm shitting on McDonald's again, but it's good.

[547] And, you know, certain comics we could name are good, but the delicacy is going to be less talked about and less household namey than the mainstream hacky shit.

[548] Yeah, it's funny because he hasn't, I think he was on Joe Rogan's show once, maybe.

[549] Yeah, once a choice.

[550] And he was with somebody else.

[551] Jeff Ross?

[552] Yeah, he might have been with Jeff Ross.

[553] Oh, yeah, because they did that like two mics thing, whatever.

[554] Mike's yeah yeah um but he's the quickest guy there's no one funnier yeah yeah him and uh you you're super quick your appearance on recent appearance on roguyen oh thanks just so fast you're on with uhri and Shane Gillis Shane Gillis yeah that was fun we're going back in January I don't know when this comes up this never come out neither will you we're having fun yeah Yep.

[555] All right.

[556] So what does they feel like to bomb in stand -up comedy?

[557] Like to fail?

[558] Maybe the psychology of it first.

[559] Like, just take me through it.

[560] Because we're talking about being outnumbered in a fight, just being beat up.

[561] Very similar.

[562] By the way, this is like a no eye contact off.

[563] Yeah.

[564] Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[565] We're both uncomfortable.

[566] Yeah.

[567] It's great.

[568] It's kind of nice to be with my people.

[569] But yeah.

[570] Do you need a shit of paper to look at?

[571] I'm going, I got a good sweet spot right there.

[572] Nice.

[573] Yeah, it's a nightmare, but it's part of it.

[574] You know, it's, it's the validation, too, is the worst part.

[575] Because, you know, whenever you do comedy and kill, you can be a great comic, but even David Tell, these brilliant guys, they feel like they're getting, you feel like you're getting away with something.

[576] I don't have a day job.

[577] I'm telling jokes for a limit.

[578] I'm talking about my dick up here, and they're fucking loving me, and they call me he's a genius and all this.

[579] I'm talking about my sack.

[580] you know and uh and it's great it makes people happy and it's funny but uh that bombing when you bomb you go your first thought is like yeah you're right at first you're like fuck you got what you don't like this shit and then you just start going in you're like yeah maybe it isn't that good maybe they're right i do suck i knew i sucked i should become a mailman you know and uh it stinks and it feel you feel alone and you feel like you wasted their time and then you're like what was i thinking i could be a comedian what the fuck who am i like you know, Eddie Murphy?

[581] What am I doing here?

[582] So it's a lot of just spiraling out of horrible thoughts.

[583] But I also love that it hurts so bad.

[584] Bombing fucking hurts because now everybody doesn't do it.

[585] I think a lot more people could do comedy probably and figure it out.

[586] But the bombing is so brutal that it keeps a...

[587] One time I went to Minneapolis, I was like, this is a great city.

[588] I mean, it's sun and shining.

[589] Why isn't this city like packed?

[590] And they're like, because the winters are so bad.

[591] And we love it because it keeps everybody out.

[592] And I feel like the same about comedy.

[593] The bombs are so brutal.

[594] I've had bombs where I'm in bed.

[595] I'm just staring at the ceiling.

[596] Like, what the fuck was that?

[597] Like, you have PTSD.

[598] I bombed at an arena once, 20 ,000 people.

[599] I did 30 minutes to silence.

[600] So it's not just like one joke fails.

[601] Oh, yeah.

[602] They start piling on like it's irrecoverable.

[603] Yes.

[604] And one joke failing is very common.

[605] Like a lot of audience don't even notice that bomb.

[606] Because you get, you know, you got so many jokes in a row.

[607] You can sandwich a good one, then a bad one, then a good one.

[608] But when you bomb, it's almost like they chose, we don't like you.

[609] Nothing you say will redeem yourself.

[610] And it's hard to get out of.

[611] It's like being pulled down by your hair.

[612] You can't get back.

[613] I can't win this fight no matter what.

[614] Can you like get him back by acknowledging like the elf in the room that like.

[615] That helps, but they're still going to go.

[616] And that was funny when he made fun of it, but he sucks.

[617] He still sucks.

[618] He still sucks.

[619] That's the worst part.

[620] You're going, no, this is good.

[621] You guys just don't like me. Just because you don't like me, doesn't mean I'm bad.

[622] Yeah, I like going to open mics a lot, just listening because, first of all, I think the audience in the open mic, at least the ones I've been to, is most, I guess, other comedians.

[623] Or, like, at least people who don't seem to want to laugh at anything.

[624] And so I just love it because it's human nature and perseverance that is best.

[625] Here's comedians, like, clearly, this is mostly in Austin.

[626] They have a dream.

[627] Like, why would you get up?

[628] there right maybe some weird you know new year's resolution bullshit but for the most part it's people who want to be comedian like a lot of the open micers are people who clearly have done this for quite a long time already like at least a year or two maybe five years and they're often not very funny and um the just bombing in front of an audience of like 20 where they're just just sitting there like almost like mocking them with their eyes or maybe and I don't know and they still push through they still they still like as if they're doing an arena and everybody's laughing yeah still they still got that energy trying almost like to an audience that doesn't exist like an audience of their dreams because I guess you have to do that to keep the energy of the act going and it's just so beautiful to watch them try it it's uh and also the what happens open mic i don't know five minutes whatever they do they you know walk off and that walk back you know off stage and like you can't what who do they look at like what do you look do you make eye contact with people do you you look at your phone you look at your feet you just zone out you kind of you kind of go white you know you just hear white noise and go out it's it's tough but you got to you need a little delusion to be a comedian.

[629] To get into it, it takes a little bit of delusion.

[630] Like, you think you can do this?

[631] You know, you've got 10 years ahead of you of hell, and you're up for this.

[632] And, you know, most comics, we see a horrible crowd, and we see our friend bomb, and we go, yeah, he's bombing, but I'll get him.

[633] I'll get him.

[634] And then you don't get him.

[635] But that's human nature, too.

[636] It's like, I, they don't like him, but they'll like me. And you need a little of that to keep going as a comedian.

[637] But you don't want too much delusion because then you're a psycho.

[638] But you need a little.

[639] Well, the psycho could be good for a comedy.

[640] That's true, too.

[641] A lot of psychos.

[642] I mentioned to you offline that I talked to Elon and we talked about doing stand -up, that he's thinking maybe do a few minutes of stand -up.

[643] I'm saying, if you need a coach, Elon, I got you.

[644] Well, maybe you should move to Austin, the coach in full -time.

[645] Ah, hopefully can fly me in.

[646] So what advice would you give to somebody who, um, Who wants to try to do five minutes?

[647] Like the early steps of trying to go to an open mic and say something funny.

[648] Well, that's the irony of comedy is, I don't know if it's irony, but it's like the beginning is the hardest part.

[649] Usually the beginning is the easy part.

[650] Hey, I'm playing this level of Mario.

[651] I'd start a jump over one, cupa, trupa, whatever.

[652] And then the end is like, Jesus Christ, I got 30 guys coming at me. Comedy is the opposite.

[653] The beginning is like, it's a gauntlet.

[654] It's just obstacles.

[655] and it's like you said, open mics.

[656] I watch these famous comedians on Netflix, and you go, this would all bomb on an open mic.

[657] They're killing in Radio City.

[658] This would bomb on an open mic.

[659] That's the weird part.

[660] So it's almost that you have to go through hell just to get to the promised land.

[661] And I would say, rehearse the shit out of it because you're going to get frazzled up there.

[662] Everybody thinks, oh, this is good material.

[663] But you also forget about the other part of delivering it, having confidence, being likable, having timing, having a cadence, figuring out who you are, figure out what the audience thinks you are or how they perceive you.

[664] Because you can go up there and say all this, but they go, why's the guy he's clearly gay?

[665] Why is he acting like he's not gay?

[666] You know, that's all that, now they're not listening to the joke.

[667] So, like, you got to know how you look.

[668] And it's just repetition, repetition.

[669] And bombing is not failure.

[670] That's what you got to remember.

[671] I mean, look, if you do a killer hour and then you take it to Netflix and bomb, you fucked up.

[672] But bombing is not failure.

[673] It's just data.

[674] It's going, oh okay i got to retool that that didn't work something wrong there they missed a word there so you got to treat the uh the act almost like uh like uh like ingredients in a in a in a cooking in a dish you know like like oh that i put too many eggs in take an egg out you got to treat like that and look when you pull a bad cake out of an oven you go i fucked up but it doesn't hurt your feelings but when you bomb and fuck up it hurts your feelings so you got to factor that in too your feelings got to be hurt and just almost be a robot and just keep going towards that open mic you know how scary an open mic is bombing sucked but bombing in front of other comedians is way worse because they know what just happened and they could have saved you and they didn't so it's way worse and that they're going to be your quote unquote friends for this journey yeah no these are evil people twisted, fucked up, hurt people.

[675] Can you tell, like, in those early days, let's just talk about that, like, at the open mic level, that a joke is going to be good on paper.

[676] Like, I'll give you my experience, because maybe you can be my coach in this particular moment.

[677] Like Larry Nasser.

[678] That's fun, huh?

[679] Joking, everybody.

[680] I hope nobody takes it seriously.

[681] I now have an amazing team of folks who help me with editing, and they're now currently sweating.

[682] You've got to leave that one in.

[683] That was quick.

[684] Yeah, that's pretty good.

[685] I'll leave that one.

[686] That was good.

[687] All right.

[688] So, you know, going in front of an audience, just even to give a lecture terrifies me, which I've done.

[689] But open mic, I mean, that to me, perhaps that's why I like going to open mics and listening, is because I just, it terrifies me so much, that idea of going up there and bombing.

[690] I mean, it's scary.

[691] And to do even like one minute, to be honest, is scary.

[692] And five minutes.

[693] I'm also watched enough open mics to realize that five minutes is a long time.

[694] I mean, it depends on your comedy.

[695] But if you're doing fast stuff, five minutes is a really long time.

[696] Oh, it's eternity.

[697] I guess it was a long story.

[698] two is a long time because if the story is not working, you're building up to something.

[699] If the story is going to fail, you just spent all that time telling the story that completely went flat.

[700] Completely.

[701] Got nothing.

[702] I guess if you have a series of jokes, you can at least try to recover and do the Mitch Hedberg thing.

[703] We're like, all right, I'll cross that off.

[704] Yeah, yeah.

[705] Well, I'm able to, like, I've tried to write a few things, and I'm able to tell that it's really bad.

[706] Well, that's better than most.

[707] Most people's egos kick in, they go, no, this is good.

[708] No, see, I'm able to introspect that.

[709] Like, it seems funny.

[710] I mean, I guess the thing I'm looking for is original.

[711] Like, there's easy stuff that you think it's funny.

[712] But to me, originality is the thing you should be looking for.

[713] I agree.

[714] Because then that's what actually becomes funny.

[715] Like, or rather, if it's original, even if it bombs, That feels like more a beautiful art creation that you did.

[716] Like, at least you swung for it.

[717] Like, you did something unique.

[718] Because, like, even with open mic, your first five minutes, there's so many, just go to enough open mics.

[719] You'll hear, like, all the, there's like a list of jokes that you can just go to.

[720] First of all, you can make fun of the fact that you're at an open mic, that you're, like, doing this the first time and so on.

[721] You could do a lot of stuff where you make fun of your appearance in some way and so on.

[722] But, like, yeah, you could do that.

[723] you know that takes actually that's way harder than people realize to do it in an original way yes to present who you are as a person very quickly enough to then put that person down in front everybody else so you have to reveal the audience is like that because they go he knows what we're thinking yeah exactly but do it again in an original way and so like when i'm trying to write stuff uh when it that i've tried long it's like 30 minutes but as enough to see like oh shit the to write something original is really difficult it is but do you you got a bit anything no you didn't write any one line or anything for this no well just in general ever in your life ever written a joke oh yeah yeah yeah oh okay no but I don't have anything in my mind popped so the the the jokes that I've written have more like for some reason my mind goes to like dark places so you know like and not actually dark in the Mark Norman dark because you go really dark to where it's like almost absurd.

[724] My natural inclination is to go to like a dark historical place like Hitler and Stalin and almost to go to that place and then talk about something absurd there.

[725] So don't go like like all the way, I don't know, I don't want to give examples because it'll be clipped, but the Mark Norma style, look it up, he has a special on his YouTube, that kind.

[726] I want to almost explore the dark aspects of human nature more kind of connected to actual historical figures.

[727] That's the inclination.

[728] Like, I don't know, nature's metal, the Instagram channel that explores like the darkness of nature, like something there.

[729] See, that's good that you already know that you've kind of gotten to the core of your comedy already, and that's interesting.

[730] That's a step ahead.

[731] Yeah, I can hear, I mean, with most things I do in life, I can, like, hear the music from a distance, like, in myself, like, okay, if you have anything, this is the direction it'll be, without actually knowing exactly all the steps.

[732] And that's a nice motivation to be like, all right, well, if you do this for a long time, maybe you'll have a chance to get there.

[733] right but you have to that that's where the it's a feature to be super self -critical i think yes but then that's why it's fucking terrifying to walk up to a stage stand there and probably forget everything yeah that's the other part nobody thinks about just goes right out of your head you go fight or flight it's ugly my first years were horrific bombing horrific stammering horrific not remembering the punchline like you got maybe you got a setup going and they're kind of on board and you're like ah, how's that camera how it goes?

[734] And you just hate yourself.

[735] It's a nightmare.

[736] But you've already kind of, maybe if you haven't done stand -up or whatever, but you kind of know your voice.

[737] And that's pretty advanced.

[738] So you're not trying to be somebody else.

[739] I guess, yeah, just for having done like podcasts and lecture and so on.

[740] That helps.

[741] I've embarrassed.

[742] I already done some of the work of the stand -ups do, which is embarrass yourself in front of others for prolonged periods of time.

[743] Yes.

[744] Yeah, so I'd done that without actually developing the funny.

[745] Right, right, right.

[746] But maybe the funny just is not that difficult to develop.

[747] No, it's super difficult, of course, but I mean, maybe the essential work of a stand -up comedian is just the embarrassment of, like, finding who you are.

[748] Yeah, that's a part of it for sure.

[749] You know, in the beginning, you're like, water bottle.

[750] What's funny about water bottle?

[751] I'm a funny guy.

[752] I can make this funny, but that ain't, that's not it, you know?

[753] It's your shit, your shit, like your dark stuff.

[754] But for me, I tend to gravitate towards dark, but in a weird way where, you know, people will say like, hey, don't objectify women.

[755] But then they go, Caitlin Jenner's beautiful.

[756] And you're like, well, wait, I know something's off here.

[757] Why can you objectify her, but not the supermodel?

[758] So what's going on there?

[759] And I like to play with that.

[760] So I have this joke where I say, Caitlin Jenner.

[761] Oh, women go, Caitlin Jenner's beautiful, beautiful woman.

[762] I go, well, you look like her.

[763] And they go, fuck you.

[764] And you're like, there's a lot of truth there.

[765] But I like exploring that kind of, oh, you're trying to get one over on me or you're lying yourself or what are we doing here?

[766] And I like that kind of comedy.

[767] I don't see color.

[768] Well, I'm black.

[769] No, you're not.

[770] You know, that's fun because you're lying.

[771] Yeah.

[772] Okay, so like big time comedians, it's just yourself, don't like to think of yourself in this way.

[773] But, here we go.

[774] Yeah, this is like where you over philosophize comedy, but...

[775] Yeah, definitely.

[776] It seems like comedians...

[777] Don't say important.

[778] Nothing worse than a comedian who thinks they're important.

[779] Yeah.

[780] So I was going...

[781] I was trying to find...

[782] As I was trying to say these words, I realized how cliche it is and how uninteresting it is.

[783] So I'm going to just...

[784] But there is something...

[785] I'm worried this whole thing is uninteresting.

[786] I'm like, who cares about comedy?

[787] There's like six comics on the planet.

[788] Nobody cares.

[789] Okay.

[790] I trust you in the pilot, see.

[791] You know what you're doing.

[792] You got listeners.

[793] They've tuned out long ago.

[794] Oh, you'll get Dan Carlin on here, huh?

[795] Is he around?

[796] Yeah.

[797] We're just going back and forth on Twitter.

[798] I just know.

[799] He's a huge fan.

[800] He was on here before.

[801] He'll be back.

[802] He's great.

[803] I've been actually really trying to volunteer myself aggressively with Dan Carlin for like a Russian episode where I can speak Russian.

[804] There's certain documents.

[805] I talk with Jocko about this too.

[806] Certain things, I mean, I just love the challenge of bringing Russian documents that I can read it in Russian and they can translate and can try to capture the depth of the writing in the Russian language and communicate to the American audience.

[807] So much is lost in translation.

[808] Like there's so much pain and poetry in the Russian language.

[809] It's just connected to the culture.

[810] Every language, not every language, but many languages are.

[811] uniquely able to capture the culture of the people.

[812] I mean, in some way, they're the representation of the culture of the people.

[813] And so Russian is definitely that.

[814] It represents the full history and culture of the 20th century with all the atrocities, all the broken promises, all those kinds of things.

[815] Norm says Russian literature is, it's the most tapped into human existence than anything else.

[816] Norm.

[817] McDonald.

[818] Yeah.

[819] Big, big Russian literature guy, Dostoevsky, all that shit it's funny that there is a gap with comedians too there's a culture of russian comedy uh like stand -up comedians that are totally yeah yeah i don't know these russians i mean uh i don't know today i mean more from the 80s and 90s and so there's a yakoff that's all i know that's not so there's like of course that's that's that's i've never seen you that offended no no no it's I'm not offended.

[820] There's a different, there's, there's like the Kinnisans and the, there's the edgy.

[821] Is that Russian?

[822] What do you mean?

[823] Wait, I thought you said there was Russian comics.

[824] Yeah, Russian comics.

[825] I mean, I'm comparing, I'm giving you, like, a style, a darkness, like, that's the kind of people that kind of challenge, they give, again, this is to how important comedians are, is they give a voice.

[826] to people where in the Soviet Union, you really can't express your opposition to the government.

[827] And so comedians are exceptionally important there for just, I don't know, channeling the anger.

[828] Even when sometimes it's not the actual opposition to the government, they're just channeling the anger, the frustration with the absurdity of life.

[829] Like, you know, when there's a shortage of food, shortage of jobs, the absurdity of the, the absurdity of the bureaucracy like the top heavy government just all of that can only sometimes be expressed with like dark absurd humor and that actually why there's a culture of that kind of humor you know you gather on the table with vodka yeah and all you can do is just talk shit yeah and just be offensive say horrible shit ball bust i mean i make school shooting jokes and people go how do you do that i'm like Well, maybe that's how I deal with it.

[830] Yeah.

[831] You know, like, how come I got to, I got to empathize the way you do?

[832] Maybe we're different.

[833] All right.

[834] So now let's skip the whole open mic thing and crafting jokes.

[835] Oh, that's tough.

[836] Kerouac said, one day I will find the right words and they will be simple.

[837] When do you know the joke is done?

[838] It's perfect.

[839] You're somebody that does, like, really sharp.

[840] sharp like fast uh jokes well thanks so like there's somebody i don't know i don't know who you see yourself in the same school as like had your you're you're darker and faster than headberg i think in terms of like just i don't know the turns you take it very thanks i appreciate it i think i got some norm macdonald and maybe that's right you know obviously norm but uh chris rock was huge for me Chris, old, like, 90s, Chris Rock was like, I didn't know you could do jokes like that.

[841] I always love George Carlin and Groucho Marx and Bill Murray.

[842] There's so many different types of comedy.

[843] But when I saw the bigger and blacker bring the pain, I was like, oh, my God, this, like, it hit me. So that was big.

[844] And then Norm's just like the funniest guy on the planet.

[845] So him being the smartest guy in the room, but acting dumb was great.

[846] So, yeah, Chris Rock has that way of cutting to the bullshit.

[847] which I mentioned earlier.

[848] I like that cutting through the bullshit kind of style of comedy because you kind of go, oh, I'm not crazy.

[849] That's what I thought too.

[850] I was too scared to say, but I thought that.

[851] And he's saying it in a room of people are laughing.

[852] Maybe I'm not an idiot.

[853] So that helped me. So it's observational, but not Jerry's scientific.

[854] It's like going to the darker thing.

[855] Yeah.

[856] It sounds so great, but I like him too, but seeing it doing it about stuff like in your life society yeah race gender government politics all that kind of stuff exactly exactly sex human emotions jealousy whatever it is that that's the good stuff how'd you feel when norm passed away ah that was a bummer because uh he was you know what 61 and i just didn't see it coming and i just i've watched so many hours of his stuff and I've met him and he's like he was like this comedic bar like hey we got norm you know there's so much shit comedy then you see norm and you're like this is next level this is savant type shit and then to lose him is like ah norm had 20 more years at least of just content and content and thoughts and his point of view and that's we'll never get that and that sucks yeah there is something about artists like Jimmy Hendricks dying too early it's like you wonder What was next?

[857] Yeah, what was next.

[858] But then part of it is like, you know, it all ends for all of us.

[859] And it's like walking away early is kind of admirable.

[860] It's almost like I did a pretty good job.

[861] Yeah.

[862] I'm good with that.

[863] And especially the way he did, which is not telling anybody.

[864] I know.

[865] Nine years.

[866] His best friends didn't even know.

[867] And in this world of like victimhood and I need clicks and I need people to love me, he got canceled and yelled at and in trouble and he could have pulled that cancer card and he never did.

[868] I mean, the integrity on this motherfucker.

[869] Did you get a chance to interact with him?

[870] How often did you meet him?

[871] I met him once at the Comedy Cellar and we chatted for five minutes and then he went on and did the Letterman set that he did.

[872] He was running the Letterman set.

[873] And sweet guy, nice guy.

[874] I didn't know him that well, but I mean, he's just brilliant.

[875] And I also love a brilliant guy who does stupid stuff.

[876] that's a fun fun little combo there like silly guys who are actually brilliant also you know like Louis CK is a brilliant comic and he'll do a joke about farting on a kid and you're like that's great that he still finds farts funny and he's also this comedic genius guy I like that and doesn't really acknowledge the genius yeah that's yeah I like smart people there silly yes that's a good combo Like you said Elon is silly Yeah, that's great Yeah Because we taught We teach kids like Hey put that down Stop that Quit cutting up Quit horsing around But maybe that's some kind of sign Of brilliance there Yeah Being like Childlike and silly Is a kind of wisdom I feel like those people Are way wiser Than the people that No offense to me Wear a suit And take themselves way too seriously No but you got a spark in you A little What's the word Not elf imp.

[877] A little imp in you.

[878] Give that a goog.

[879] You know what imp?

[880] Yeah.

[881] Let's look at.

[882] It's like a little...

[883] Is that a Tolkien character?

[884] Imp.

[885] An imp is the European mythological being similar to a fairy or a demon.

[886] Are you calling me a fairy?

[887] Well...

[888] Frequently...

[889] No, okay.

[890] Similar to a fairy or a demon.

[891] I feel like that's a big leap.

[892] Big leap.

[893] Yeah, that's not a great info bio there.

[894] Frequently described in folklore and superstition.

[895] The word may perhaps have...

[896] derive from the term imp spelled the Y used to denote a young grafted tree.

[897] It's a little mischievous.

[898] You've got a twinkle.

[899] You're the serious buttoned up guy, but this is a twinkle.

[900] There's a twinkle.

[901] And the audience can see the twinkle, and that's why you resonate, I think.

[902] I'm sorry.

[903] Deep analysis by Mark Norman, psychological analysis.

[904] Okay, but then back to the crafting of the joke.

[905] He said, Chris Rock and Norm McDonnell, like, what for you?

[906] How do you know when the joke is like done?

[907] Are there some jokes when you're like are proud of like, wow, that that's, that's well done?

[908] Yeah, yeah, the joke is done.

[909] It's a tough question because there's so many different kinds of jokes.

[910] There's what we call a chunk, which is a big idea with a bunch of jokes in the middle of it and then a big crescendo at the end.

[911] Or there's a one liner or there's a tag of a joke that's also a joke.

[912] So the joke's coming different Like I have a joke where I say I met my girl in that Jewish app What's that Jewish app called?

[913] Nice That's the hell That's what they're asking you want from the crowd But it's a fun turn Because you say your thing And then I hit you with a misdirect And that's what a joke is A joke is basically me saying something That makes sense But you didn't see it coming Yeah And that's a perfect example of that So, uh, that joke took forever to figure out, by the way, you know, and, uh, you have to go to different services like PayPal, like, what's funniest?

[914] Exactly.

[915] And I figured PayPal is funny because it has the word pay in it.

[916] Yeah.

[917] You know, Venmo, it's also not really a good word.

[918] Venmo.

[919] PayPal.

[920] It just hits better.

[921] Yeah, PayPal is funnier somehow.

[922] It's funnier somehow.

[923] And that's the beauty of common.

[924] There's a weird little magic into it.

[925] You can get technical all day and formulaic, but there's still that little bit of a fairy dust that you don't know why this is funnier.

[926] or imp dust imp dust yes the why okay so you know what joke is done when it kills and it is a roundness to a joke when you feel like this is buttoned up this is done here yeah is simplicity the right word there yeah is it like you're chopping stuff away or you're adding stuff like what does it feel like simplicity is always the best angle I mean you can get real high concept with a joke and still make it work but the simpler the better I saw Dave Chappelle on stage once and Chris Rock and Dimitri Martin were in the back watching in awe.

[927] And Dave Schabelle, I can't remember the joke, but he said something about sex or women.

[928] And Demetri Martin goes, eh, it's a little easy.

[929] And Chris Rock goes, that's why it's good.

[930] And I remember hearing that as some young comic like, ah, I'm getting this like, you know, comedy lesson right here for these two Titans.

[931] And so that was fun.

[932] Simple is key.

[933] So the easy is okay.

[934] That's such a weird.

[935] I think I remember, um, reading or hearing M &M say something about maybe the song, some shit, one of the songs, he's like, I knew it was going to be good because it got, like, really repetitive and annoying very quickly or something like that.

[936] I mean, that's the sort of the music equivalent of, it's too easy.

[937] Like, if it's, like, super catchy.

[938] As a musician, you might get very quickly bored of it.

[939] Right.

[940] Or, like, as you're creating it, no, it's too easy.

[941] it's like there needs to be some more complexity to it but i like complexity but the best guys who are the ones who make complex shit look simple like you ever heard that uh ben franklin's story or he's talking to his friend his friends like i'm going to start a hat store so he puts a sign out says hats for sale 12 dollars and ben frank looks at it goes uh well you don't need the 12 dollars because you know all they need to know is that you got hats for sale he's like all right so he loses the 12 dollars makes a new sign hats for for sale and he goes you don't you don't really need for sale because it's a business people can put that together so he just goes all right he makes a new sign it says hats and then ben franklin's like you know you don't really need the word hat you can just put a picture of a hat and he made a new sign which is a picture of a hat and it's like helped the business or something that's like some old life's tale or whatever but i think about that all the time when i'm writing i thought this was going to like there was no sign it went like super like that maybe that could work too uh uh what like as a comedian so i'm a fan of yours i enjoy i really enjoy you in conversations like wow because you're now getting nothing out of you this is all right i can't oh like emotion you're tough not to read cold inside i mean just the quickness you have obviously you also a great stand -up comedian what's your favorite medium to shine in so you have a podcast yourself an excellent podcast um thanks you're often a podcast guest yeah um which is always fun to listen to you how you're going to deal with the different people you're great on rogan oh thank um what what do you enjoy most podcasts are great because you can you can stretch out a little more you can breathe a little you know with a stand -up said i like to be like boom boom boom boom boom but podcasts are great because it's conversational so you can be it's almost like you're being funny with your friends Whereas the stage is like a, this is a piece, this is a presentation.

[942] But I think the podcast is great, but you don't get the reaction.

[943] Unless the host is laughing, you can't hear the guy in his car in New Jersey driving to work going, every now that I'll read a comment like, I spit up my coffee when you said this.

[944] And I'm like, but it's not immediate.

[945] You want the immediate.

[946] So stand -up will always be number one, but there's no better feeling than killing in a room of people who don't know who you are, strangers you're in the middle of nowhere you left your wife at home you left your kids you left your house you're in the middle of bum fuck Dickville and murdering for these hillbilly nobody whatever it is and they're slinging their beers and whew cheering you on and they carry out and you fuck some fat lady and you leave and you get back to your hotel and you go holy shit what was that no one will ever know about it just lost in the ether that's the best feeling yeah Yeah.

[947] Killing an obscurity, as Bill Burr would say.

[948] Yeah, this is one of the things that sucks about giving lectures, like at universities or giving lectures in general, is when you look at the audience, you know, several hundred students, they all have a bored look on their face.

[949] Yeah, of course.

[950] Like, even like my face now probably looks bored, but I'm actually excited to be talking to you.

[951] but there's something about just there's something about a comedy called maybe this the contingent of laughter but like it gives people the freedom to just laugh to like to remove that facade of like you don't have to you don't have to pretend like you don't care like if you care you can show it and you can have fun with it probably liquor is helps out too yeah it helps for sure but there is a especially and that's why comedy I think is so popular right now because HR is up our ass.

[952] We're scared of old tweets that might come back to haunt us.

[953] What did I say on that interview?

[954] Even people at offices are like, I put something on Facebook in 1999 that was about fat tits that I liked.

[955] Should I get rid of that?

[956] Even people say, like, there's no cancel, whatever.

[957] There is something in the air right now that wasn't there before.

[958] It's the video I'm a Karen, I got caught at Trader Joe, whatever it is.

[959] People rat on each other now.

[960] Everybody's tattletailing because they want the clicks.

[961] It's a horrible society.

[962] we've crafted, but stand -up comedy gets you to come out, and now people do it at stand -up shows too, sadly, but it gets you to come out and let that inhibition down, like, because we're all human, we've all had the fucked up thoughts, like, man, that guy's fat as shit.

[963] It doesn't mean you hate the guy, doesn't mean you're fat -shaming, but you can't say that at the office, you can't go, Bob, you're fat as shit, you'll get fired for body shaming.

[964] But at the club, you go, that guy's fat as shit, and the crowd goes, he is fat as shit.

[965] And it's this weird cathartic thing because all we do is tamp shit down.

[966] It's kind of like you ever meet a girl who's like all prim and proper in the bedroom.

[967] She's like, put a lamp up my ass.

[968] You know, whatever it is.

[969] It's because we got to get it out.

[970] We're all repressed in some way.

[971] So I guess what you're saying is comedy's important.

[972] Yes.

[973] Callback.

[974] Well played, sir.

[975] What do you think about Austin?

[976] What do you think about the comedy scene in Austin?

[977] We'll talk about L .A. and New York.

[978] What do you think about what Joe's trying to create there.

[979] So I should say that the reason I moved to Austin, I have this dream of, it wouldn't be funny if I said this dream of becoming a comedian.

[980] It's an audience at least.

[981] Yeah, that's true.

[982] You know, I always said you can hear the music in the distance.

[983] I have this dream around robotics and artificial intelligence, whether it's a company, whether it's something else that I was just pulling me to, I actually wanted to move to San Francisco and then all my friends in San Francisco said, no, it's the wrong place.

[984] At this time, the cynicism there is just not conducive to, like, taking big leaps into the unknown, excited about the future kind of thing.

[985] And Austin was that, for me in particular with Elon Musk, but also just the energy that everybody had, including Joe, the excitement about the future.

[986] I don't care if Austin burns to the ground and it actually is a complete failure.

[987] Being excited about the future seems to be, like, optimism about the future.

[988] It seems to be the thing that actually makes that future happen.

[989] It makes a great future happen.

[990] So it's always cool for me to see, like Joe, super excited about creating, like, a culture in Austin, like making it a comedy hub.

[991] Like, I don't want to overstate it, but he, I mean, I think he really believes it'll be a very big place for comedy in the United States in general, in the world.

[992] world.

[993] And so just even believe in that, that's powerful.

[994] Like, you start to make it, you start to make it happen.

[995] That energy, uh, is there.

[996] Anyway, so, but that's for me from just an outsider watching, uh, the fun of it.

[997] I should also mention for less of an outsider, more inside of, in the martial arts world, partially probably because of Joe, I'm not sure, like John Donahar, uh, Gordon Ryan, the B team, all those folks, those are, that might be gibberish to you.

[998] But, Those are like some of the greatest grapplers and martial artists of all time.

[999] So it's also becoming this hub of martial arts.

[1000] So the whole thing is just beautiful.

[1001] Anyway, what are your thoughts about that scene?

[1002] Well, there's a lot here, a lot of things to mention.

[1003] One, I think Joe did do that to a degree, you know, like all these people with Segora lives there now.

[1004] A lot of comics live there.

[1005] He's opening clubs.

[1006] Other clubs are opening.

[1007] I think it's happening.

[1008] That's the other thing is people go, So everybody's moving to Austin.

[1009] Austin's the new hub.

[1010] And then they look at their watch and they go, five minutes went by, nothing changed.

[1011] It's going to take years, you know, but everybody wants it now, now, now.

[1012] What, Austin.

[1013] There's no industry there.

[1014] You know, there's no Netflix, whatever.

[1015] And you're like, yeah, I know, but it needs a minute.

[1016] You can't just do this overnight.

[1017] So people forget that.

[1018] So it could happen huge, just give it some time.

[1019] I mean, he's opening a club.

[1020] I went and saw it.

[1021] It's incredible.

[1022] Like, it's so perfect for comedy.

[1023] It's every detail.

[1024] It's incredible.

[1025] but uh so it could happen still i do think where there's a little biting off more than they can chew with austin because it's not that big so like this spread out i mean yeah it's not big and the the infrastructure is not quite there to support it but it has a lot of uh you know comparing for my from the tech side for uh it has a lot of land to expand into so it might become this that helps like you basically establishing it's kind of like me new york you're establishing these whole neighborhoods.

[1026] And you have the freedom to do that because there's a lot of space on all sides.

[1027] Yes.

[1028] Okay.

[1029] So that helps.

[1030] So again, maybe some time.

[1031] I do agree with this, that new hope.

[1032] That's kind of built into human beings of like, let's go to America.

[1033] Let's go to the utopia.

[1034] We even have it with space.

[1035] Let's go to Mars.

[1036] We've got to see what's over there.

[1037] And it's just red, dusty bullshit.

[1038] But you still got to go.

[1039] So I'm withy on that about this new hope, this new land.

[1040] And I think that is beautiful.

[1041] And I think there's a lot of haters.

[1042] I think there's a lot of naysayers who hate change, who hate anything new.

[1043] And then I think you've got to go, hey, that hurts.

[1044] That sucks.

[1045] But blow me, Dickless.

[1046] I'm trying something.

[1047] You're a loser.

[1048] Stop hating on me. I mean, how many people hate Elon Musk, you know?

[1049] Yeah, it's hilarious.

[1050] I mean, there's some of the criticism on Austin.

[1051] It's like a fad.

[1052] Like, a lot of people are really, people are excited about Austin.

[1053] and somehow that's like it's like when Green Day became famous you no longer want to be a fan of Green Day but to me like that's...

[1054] Austin was already a cool town like every comic five years ago was like oh I got Austin this week and I can't wait.

[1055] So it already had a buzz but some people think maybe the buzz was the cool part the fact that it was like this off the beaten path city and now I get to visit it and then leave but I think it could still be this comedy tech booming place, it just will take some time, and people want it right now.

[1056] Well, on the tech side, it's already there?

[1057] It's getting there very fast.

[1058] So, I mean, Elon's really pushing that.

[1059] With the factory, it's just a huge number of people are moving there with jobs.

[1060] Like, you're already starting.

[1061] And then the opportunities to launch new companies is just incredible.

[1062] I guess it's not right now.

[1063] it's like within months within a year that kind of thing but like it's an opportunity to just start to build shit in a new place and it's cool it's kind of like you know go to mars it's like you get to start over yeah and i like the hope aspect i think that's huge for people and uh i'm i'm all for it i hope it works out i don't know if it will but i don't know anything about economies and city's planning and all that shit so it might be too early to say but I hope it works.

[1064] Are you still talking about Austin or Mars?

[1065] Mars is, there's nothing there.

[1066] There's no vagina there.

[1067] There's no food there.

[1068] There's no water there.

[1069] I don't know.

[1070] It seems, I get space travel.

[1071] I think it's important.

[1072] But I don't know Mars is really going to move the needle.

[1073] So what are your thoughts about Elon Musk and SpaceX and launching rockets into space?

[1074] I think it's all good because you could say, hey, we could just feed everybody, and I was like, yeah, that's true.

[1075] By the way, these guys give a ton of money to, like, philanthropy shit that nobody cares about.

[1076] By the way, you know, it's weird, like, he could feed the Nigeria and with pocket change of his.

[1077] And you're like, well, maybe he has.

[1078] You know, like, I heard Bill Gates gave back so much money he saved six million lives.

[1079] Yeah.

[1080] But that's a reverse Holocaust, by the way.

[1081] That's pretty good.

[1082] What have you done?

[1083] You're a barista.

[1084] So, you know, I just think, I think space travel is.

[1085] good because you learn about the place you're living in from going to space.

[1086] It kind of helps you learn about this more.

[1087] You could say, what's the point of going to the southern air?

[1088] But it does help, I think.

[1089] Yeah, doing difficult things in the engineering space seems to be a way to develop like as a almost like an accident, as a side effect of doing a really difficult thing in a team of brilliant people.

[1090] You develop things like the internet.

[1091] And you could argue that the internet maybe he's not so good for society.

[1092] No, I'm just kidding.

[1093] That's good and bad.

[1094] Yeah, but it's like a pull -up.

[1095] You're trying to get your bicep going, but hey, but before you know, you got decent forearms.

[1096] But you weren't working on the forearms.

[1097] You wanted to buy, but you got the four.

[1098] And I think that's kind of what space travel is.

[1099] I like how this, like, pivoted into a workout routine advice.

[1100] I'm trying to get an analogy going here.

[1101] All right, they work pretty well.

[1102] I'll take it.

[1103] All right.

[1104] What are your thoughts about, since I'm a robotics person, and I'd be curious to see, like, what, do you think about the space at all, about, first of all, autonomous vehicles with Tesla Autopilot and Waymo self -driving car?

[1105] I'm not sure if you're familiar with all the autonomous vehicles and so on.

[1106] So those are robots on wheels.

[1107] And then there's also legged robots.

[1108] So next time, you're in Austin, you get to meet some of the legged robots have been working on.

[1109] And I find those kind of a fascinating way to explore the nature of intelligence in our computers, but also explore our own intelligence and also explore our own, like what makes us connect to other living beings, whether it's dogs, cats, or other humans.

[1110] Like there's some magic there that's beyond just intelligence.

[1111] And I, like, when I have the robot dog, there's some aspect to it that, I don't know, brings me joy in a way that a dog does, in a way that a good friend does.

[1112] Yeah, that's interesting.

[1113] And I'm not sure if that's some kind of anthropomorphism, like where I'm projecting my hopes for what this thing is.

[1114] Maybe a little of that.

[1115] But it's kind of built in.

[1116] I mean, it's just a source of joy.

[1117] Maybe it's connected to the fact that there's just like a loneliness within all of us.

[1118] within me, and it's just nice to have other things in your life that move, that recognize you, that kind of thing.

[1119] I mean, I suppose it's nice to even just have a plant.

[1120] Yeah, it is.

[1121] Plant goes a long way.

[1122] You see a guy with plants in his apartment.

[1123] It changes the apartment because they're alive.

[1124] You've got to water them.

[1125] You've got to put sun on them.

[1126] So, yeah, I think there's something there.

[1127] And I think you can see people's reactions when you show them advanced technology, like these dog robots or these robots that dance and shit.

[1128] People are like, what the fuck?

[1129] Like, it hits home in some way, whether it's fear or you want to fuck them clearly, whatever it is.

[1130] But it does connect with you in some way.

[1131] So I'm with you.

[1132] And I think, this is why I don't think robots will take over.

[1133] You always say that robot.

[1134] They're making them too advanced.

[1135] They're going to wipe us out, blah, blah, blah.

[1136] If robots get human emotions, that is scary because they could get mad at us and kill us and they're stronger.

[1137] They don't need sleep.

[1138] They don't need food.

[1139] They don't need water.

[1140] They don't get jealous.

[1141] They don't, you know, but if they have emotions, then I think we can dominate them.

[1142] Because who's had emotion?

[1143] Who knows emotions better than us?

[1144] We've got thousands of years of evolutionary emotional bullshit.

[1145] We can go, hey, robot, I heard you, your wife fucked that black and decker, huh?

[1146] They're going to crumble.

[1147] We can bully them.

[1148] Emotionally manipulate robots?

[1149] Yes.

[1150] That's when we'll win.

[1151] Right now, they could kill us.

[1152] They could just, we'd all die.

[1153] Then we shoot them back.

[1154] Bing, pink, bing, bing.

[1155] That's no good.

[1156] But if they do get emotions, then we can go, hey, you look like hell.

[1157] What is that?

[1158] A rusty bolt?

[1159] Hey, you're dropping some oil there, you know, you loser.

[1160] I think we can win if they do get emotions.

[1161] This goes back to your father being able to undercut you with a single word.

[1162] You're right.

[1163] Yeah.

[1164] So we're the creators of the robots.

[1165] And then the robots will just, you'll say the exact thing.

[1166] Yeah.

[1167] Where the robot will be like, that's son of a bitch.

[1168] And then it goes back to his hole and just sits there miserable.

[1169] Right.

[1170] Yeah, hardware.

[1171] It looks more like software to me. you can't get it up yada yada yada yeah but i'm not worried about robots and i think self what do you think about the self -driving cars is that just wiping out the horse and buggy isn't that just progression of technology yeah so i don't know if you've driven in a tesla for example i have i wrote in the uh the passenger i drive it yeah there's several stages in that i think it's the problem is way harder than people realize and for quite a while it'll just make driving more pleasant it'll make it less stressful, it'll take over some of the boring bits for you, it'll make it easier.

[1172] Like, there's something that happens actually when the car is driving for you in the following way.

[1173] Like, it's staying in the lane, it's keeping distance to the car in front of you, maybe it's changing lanes.

[1174] It allows you to relax a little bit.

[1175] Yes.

[1176] You become, you still have to be alert, but you become like a passenger and you get to like take in the world.

[1177] I mean, somehow that's more relaxing without making you.

[1178] necessarily like bored more it's energizes you more so I just think it makes the driving experience more pleasant but when you actually fully automate cars when you can just completely tune out and start reading a book or go to sleep that might change uh society like in ways we don't even understand because you'll have I mean the they'll probably change the nature of roads because the cars because now you can be super productive and so it no longer quite matters to you as much how long it takes to get from point A to point B because you're not wasting that time, you just continue working.

[1179] Yeah.

[1180] It's like public transit that comes to you.

[1181] Exactly.

[1182] And so there will be maybe less roads and bigger roads and it will just change the nature of how we get from point A to point B. I think you're right.

[1183] But then coupled that also with the fact that we seem to be more and more comfortable existing in the digital world.

[1184] Yeah.

[1185] So, like, maybe we won't want to go outside more and more.

[1186] We'll just interact with each other virtually.

[1187] And I don't mean Zoom meetings.

[1188] I mean, just in other ways that's more fulfilling than a Zoom meeting.

[1189] Sure.

[1190] But then maybe not because, like, there's something deeply uncompelling about Zoom meetings.

[1191] Like podcasts that are remote, unless they're super information dense, at least to me as a podcast fan, kind of suck.

[1192] They suck.

[1193] There's no connection.

[1194] It goes back to the dog thing.

[1195] With the Zoom, there's no connection.

[1196] Yeah, and we're not, you know, I don't understand why we're not even making eye contact.

[1197] I know.

[1198] But it's something there.

[1199] It's in the room.

[1200] There's pheromone.

[1201] And that's like out of our understanding probably.

[1202] It's some kind of weird biological.

[1203] You know, you ever have Cheerios in a bowl?

[1204] The Cheerios tend to, they tend to go together.

[1205] You see a cluster of Cheerios.

[1206] They're never really hanging out on the other side.

[1207] And that's kind of how people are in real life.

[1208] I wonder what the physics of that is.

[1209] So they come together and they stick.

[1210] It's something with molecules.

[1211] Yeah.

[1212] I can't remember what it was.

[1213] But it was fascinating.

[1214] And I think that's how people are.

[1215] And I think you try to write a TV show or craft a movie with your team, Zoom, nothing there.

[1216] It's like phone sex versus penetration.

[1217] One day you'll learn that.

[1218] I know nothing of either the, I look forward because I think there's a phone sex Netflix documentary.

[1219] Oh, yeah.

[1220] There's a show or something like that that is really popular.

[1221] I want to go watch.

[1222] At least I can learn about that.

[1223] I can send you some links.

[1224] Oh, on the internet?

[1225] Yeah, yeah.

[1226] Yeah.

[1227] But yeah, self -driving car, I think it's just inevitable.

[1228] It's coming and these truckers are going to have to figure something out.

[1229] Yeah.

[1230] I mean, that's an under -understood industry, actually, because there's not, there's a lot of trucking jobs.

[1231] Oh, yeah.

[1232] And people don't want to, well, people don't want to actually take them.

[1233] anymore because it's such a difficult job so it won't have or a lot of people believe it won't have as big of a negative impact as folks anticipate there'll be other automation i think they'll have a huge impact yeah for sure i mean you already see it in macdonalds you go to the beep beep why do you want to get yelled at by the uh heavy set woman of color you know for making a bad order when you can just you know hit the screen but those interactions i think are human i mean that's part of life so it is scary taking away everything how long to we're not fucking that's common too yeah then there's gonna have two two types of people are you a fuck in real life or you a digital fuck person i'm a digital i like real fucking sorry we can't date that's coming well there's also the the reproduction side of sex which is like with genetic engineering you'll be able to specify a little bit of details i talked to uh jami merzo about that like where you can um specify like what you know it'll start with like I want my child not to have like a high likelihood of diabetes or something like that and then you just get to specify like intelligence you get to specify those kinds of parameters until you're like basically trying to create a perfect human and you lose some of the magic of the flaws that make us who we are yes and you know I'm pretty sure in the full lineup of humans.

[1234] So let me give you some information.

[1235] Lay it off, you're going to break it down.

[1236] I'm sure you researched this thoroughly.

[1237] But a male of the human species of the Homo sapien produces 500 billion sperm cells in a lifetime.

[1238] So that's all some more than others.

[1239] that's all uniquely, genetically unique humans that you could produce.

[1240] So even across those 500 billion, you can select.

[1241] What do you mean?

[1242] Like abort some?

[1243] No, you can choose which of them you want.

[1244] I mean, just imagine all the genetic possibilities that are there.

[1245] Like, all the possible, like you won the race.

[1246] Yes.

[1247] Shocking?

[1248] This is a winner.

[1249] All the 500 billion?

[1250] You have to imagine what the competition was.

[1251] Oh, just tarts all day long.

[1252] Handicap.

[1253] Well, so it's not actually the fastest sperm or like it's, I think a lot of his timing and luck.

[1254] What it seems like.

[1255] There's actual papers on this, and I've actually been reading them.

[1256] I hope so.

[1257] So it's not just like the fastest sperm to the egg.

[1258] Okay.

[1259] There's a timing thing.

[1260] So you were just lucky.

[1261] All right.

[1262] I believe that.

[1263] So it's interesting to think about like once you're able to specify some parameters of what your child is like, how that changes the nature of even just like the intimacy of two humans getting together and making, creating together a child.

[1264] Yeah.

[1265] I mean, it changes it.

[1266] It's almost like, I don't know, it becomes like a factory line of some kind.

[1267] If you don't meet naturally.

[1268] Yeah, if you don't mean.

[1269] natural and then you don't and you get to optimize your child then it's yeah then it's some like you have to consider utilitarian type of things like what's good for society and it'll probably be regulation about what kind of children you can have and not like your child can not have an IQ below this or above this or something like that your child cannot we already kind of do that with you know VIP clubs like I you're kind of ugly or women go hey he's not tall enough We kind of do it a little, especially sexually.

[1270] Yeah, we do.

[1271] Can't get on the roller coaster, if you're this short, whatever it is.

[1272] You know, we do it in some capacity.

[1273] But here, this would be like fully transparent and to a degree that it's hard to imagine.

[1274] Like, the way we currently do it, you can at least get around it.

[1275] Yes.

[1276] You can least trick your way onto the roller coaster even if you're short.

[1277] Right.

[1278] Or the fat guy can get rich so you can get laid.

[1279] You know, there's other ways.

[1280] At the risk of asking the totally wrong person this question, what advice would you give to young people today in high school and college about how to have a successful career or career they're proud of or maybe have a life that they're proud of?

[1281] Ooh.

[1282] Well, first of all, you've got to be, you've got to want a life you're proud of.

[1283] Not everybody has any integrity.

[1284] A lot of people just want short money.

[1285] I want to feel good, look good.

[1286] right now.

[1287] I want to do Molly.

[1288] Boom, I'll feel good, you know.

[1289] But you should space it out.

[1290] It's almost like saving money so you can use it later.

[1291] Nobody wants to save money.

[1292] What do they say?

[1293] Like 11 % of America actually has money saved.

[1294] A thousand dollars or some shit.

[1295] It's wildly low.

[1296] Everybody wants it now, now, what do you call?

[1297] Immediate gratification.

[1298] I think the key to happiness and satisfaction is working for something.

[1299] Even if it's like a baby.

[1300] If you could have a baby in five minutes, if a woman, you gizzed in her and she had a baby, five minutes, boom, newborn, healthy.

[1301] I think you'd be more likely to throw it away if you could make it that quick.

[1302] It's the fact that you spent nine months, backbreaking, the labor, the lactating, the ripped placenta and the hymen or whatever the fuck.

[1303] That's what makes you love it.

[1304] And I think it's the same with comedy or making money or whatever.

[1305] Look at these kids who like child stars.

[1306] They all become heroin addicts at like 22 because they've just, their sensors are burned out.

[1307] They're pleasure sensors.

[1308] You didn't have to earn it.

[1309] I think earning it is a big part of life and always try to do better, try to do more, try to learn new things.

[1310] Hey, I'm bored.

[1311] Life sucks.

[1312] Play the piano then, you chooch.

[1313] But you won't do it because it takes effort and failure and all that.

[1314] But that's the good part.

[1315] and I know it's hard to see so I think that's a good key to life is work hard at something you care about and then love the result the hard work the journey is actually way more important than just getting something everybody wants to go on Amazon I got a package then you feel good for 10 seconds and let's go on Amazon again and then it's just a dumb cycle of you being disgusting and gluttonous so work for it everybody wants to take steroids And just poop, I'm buff.

[1316] Why'd you point at me?

[1317] Well, I'm just saying, because I'm Russian or what?

[1318] Well, I saw the, the icarus.

[1319] But no, I'm not saying you're on roids.

[1320] I'm just, you'd be way bigger.

[1321] But I'm just saying, you know, work for something.

[1322] And then I would also, young people, eat shit early.

[1323] Eat shit early.

[1324] I know a guy who kind of got canceled or whatever, and he had an out early.

[1325] But he tried to get by and he tried to ride it.

[1326] And it all came crumbling down.

[1327] But if he had eaten it early, Like, yeah, I fucked up, I did that, whatever it was, he would have, he would have just kind of been, been shit on for a month and then it would have gone away.

[1328] But now it's his whole identity.

[1329] And that sucks.

[1330] So eat shit early.

[1331] And I know it's hard to see.

[1332] What do I mean early?

[1333] I'm in the present.

[1334] But look ahead.

[1335] Look back.

[1336] This time will pass.

[1337] We look at high school.

[1338] High school is the biggest thing in our lives.

[1339] Oh, my God, this exam.

[1340] Susie Q hates me. The football player beat me up.

[1341] I'll never recover.

[1342] Now you don't even think about high school.

[1343] It's just a boy.

[1344] blip in your dumb life you know and that's what this is now this will just be a blip so remember that and work towards something and uh work hard and care about the result if the result isn't good try it again and failure is not always bad failure we look at failure is this end -all be -all my life's over i failed but failure is really just learning so that's something so in summary eat shit early and eat shit often yes all right Mark Norman.

[1345] Eat ass.

[1346] That's escalated quickly.

[1347] All right.

[1348] I have a list of random questions for you.

[1349] What activities make you lose track of time?

[1350] Ooh.

[1351] Have that, go into that zone.

[1352] You have this happiness contentment about you that you just truly enjoy.

[1353] Yeah, I think good conversation.

[1354] Like, I'll sit at the comedy cellar with friends, maybe a little whiskeys flowing.

[1355] and when you're really just vibing and inhibit you can do it what is it inhibited inhibited inhibited uninhibited when you're just vibing and you're uninhibited and you're saying crazy shit and you're laughing and you're not worried am I seeming cool right now and my seeming likable when you're just you 100 % and it's all coming out of you and then they're saying stuff and you go back and forth and you feel that excitement oh they're talking but I want to say my thing and you get all keyed up I love that and I look at my watch I'm like fuck it's three in the morning We've been talking for five hours So I love that That makes the time fly by Also I bought a speaking of self -driving cars I bought a 1973 BMW Car And it's classic and it's stick shift And it's grisly and gritty and rusty And it's a bucket of bolts But I love driving it Bucket of bolts You're Tom Waits or poets Have you taken like a long trip anywhere Like a road trip in your life or with this BMW?

[1356] Not with it.

[1357] It's pretty new, but I will.

[1358] It's a new in 1997.

[1359] Yeah, it's new to me. And it just, it goes in the phase of everything we're doing now.

[1360] Everything is digital.

[1361] Everything is automated.

[1362] Everything is hands off.

[1363] Everything is delivered.

[1364] And this is the most hands -on thing in the world.

[1365] And I am dialed in, man. I got the tachometer.

[1366] I keep an eye on that.

[1367] Oh, I put the wrong gear in.

[1368] Shit.

[1369] Oh, it's about to stall.

[1370] Put some gas.

[1371] Put some clutch.

[1372] And it's all just brain power.

[1373] and staying in focus and all that.

[1374] And it's the opposite of tweeting and texting and watching porn or whatever.

[1375] So I almost needed that in my life.

[1376] So I bought this car just to have this little exercise.

[1377] I hope you don't mind that I'm just trying out random questions I wrote on you that are completely, they're like completely insane.

[1378] I'm a guinea pig.

[1379] Jizz in my face.

[1380] Bring it on, baby.

[1381] This would be edited down to five minutes.

[1382] Oh!

[1383] If everyone on earth disappears.

[1384] and it was just you left.

[1385] What would your days look like?

[1386] What would you do?

[1387] That's tough because I'm already an introvert and I try to avoid people mostly.

[1388] Like I like a one -on -one, but crowds and all that is tough.

[1389] So basically unchanged?

[1390] Yeah, that's what I was going to say.

[1391] But then that's the irony is I would be so sad to not talk to anybody.

[1392] So it's this weird, bittersweet thing.

[1393] But I don't know what I would do, man. I guess it's kind of like when you're hungover, You just go into the primal survival mode.

[1394] I got to get food.

[1395] I need water.

[1396] I'm horny.

[1397] Jerk off.

[1398] You just go, you're not like playing the piano or painting or at the gym.

[1399] So I think I would just go into urges, man. Primal urges.

[1400] Find food.

[1401] Store food.

[1402] Am I safe?

[1403] Make weapons.

[1404] Build a shelter that I can't get attacked in.

[1405] I would go all survival mode.

[1406] And then once I maybe realized if I was safe or not, there's no wild.

[1407] roaming dogs, I would start exploring and, you know, maybe somehow get a vehicle and I would try to expand and that would be it.

[1408] And maybe I'd journal exploring to what to try to find new experiences.

[1409] New life.

[1410] If there's other, maybe there is another guy out there.

[1411] Oh, so always there's a possibility.

[1412] Yeah, hope.

[1413] And then maybe there's a better place I could live.

[1414] Let's find that.

[1415] And then moving on.

[1416] Maybe there's more food over here.

[1417] So yeah, the hope would drive me. But it would be bleak and sad and horrible also.

[1418] So what you're saying is you really want other people to be there so you can hide from them.

[1419] Yes.

[1420] Well said.

[1421] All right.

[1422] What's an item on your bucket list that you haven't done yet?

[1423] Think about something you'd be very upset if you died and you haven't done.

[1424] Well, I'm terrified of having kids, you know, just because I'm a child myself and I'm selfish and lazy in a way.

[1425] So kids are like, this is your whole life.

[1426] this is it.

[1427] You got to not let this thing die.

[1428] You got to love it.

[1429] You got to raise it.

[1430] So kids scare the shit out of me, but I also feel like if I don't have them, I'll, I'll, I'll regret it.

[1431] Well, you've seen so many people like you who are fundamentally changed by kids.

[1432] Yeah.

[1433] Like, it's a source, it's a source of, like, a deep source of happiness, even though you didn't anticipate it.

[1434] Yeah.

[1435] So you, like, you penciled it into your bucket.

[1436] Yes, yes.

[1437] You're, it might be on there.

[1438] Okay.

[1439] Yeah.

[1440] Do you have, you want kids?

[1441] Yeah.

[1442] Well, I want kids.

[1443] I want to get married.

[1444] I want to have kids.

[1445] I kind of, I don't like choice.

[1446] So in the following way, like, I appreciate the value of scarcity and the power of scarcity.

[1447] Like, I don't like the modern dating culture.

[1448] It's not some religious thing, whatever.

[1449] I just like one girl for a long time, or at least swinging for that always, like swinging for the fences.

[1450] But you could be swinging right now.

[1451] I mean, you're.

[1452] That's a different.

[1453] use of the word swinging.

[1454] Sure, sure.

[1455] But I'm saying you could be clear.

[1456] You look great, you're handsome, muscular.

[1457] You get the job done.

[1458] So I feel like you wouldn't leave without an orgasm on her.

[1459] Yeah.

[1460] But I just like to, you know, about furries.

[1461] I like to dress up as animals and I just have trouble finding others who like the same.

[1462] They're up there.

[1463] I could show you some chat rooms.

[1464] You're also my coach for the internet.

[1465] Okay.

[1466] What are you most afraid of?

[1467] I guess on unlived life I'm a I was a big fan growing up of like wild guys you know like these Teddy Roosevelt who would go out and hunt lions and like bar fighting guys I was obsessed with Hunter S Thompson types and look this is what I love about guys like who's a good example like Hemingway Hemingway was the manliest guy he had the rifle and the elephant gun and the whiskey and the writing and the women and the fist fights but people forget it the other side of that coin is I'm sure he was in a lot of hotel rooms weeping I'm sure he was lonely as fuck I'm sure he had some wicked hangovers I mean he killed himself for Christ's sake so obviously he was dealing with something so the key to me is having this adventurous life living to the fullest doing crazy shit scaring yourself but also not killing yourself like also not hating because I used to party a lot hard I used to bang a lot of gals And the flip side is like, this girl hate you now, or you got herpes, or you're hungover, or your mom is like, where are you?

[1468] You never call me anymore.

[1469] And you're like, oh, my mom, I let ties go with my mom.

[1470] I got to connect.

[1471] So there's a horrible side of the party animal.

[1472] The Keith Richards, we don't see, is not pretty.

[1473] I mean, he's already weird looking, but he's partying, he's smoking.

[1474] He's living.

[1475] But there's another side of that coin.

[1476] And I think the key to life is living that fucking crazy.

[1477] awesome, badass life, and also having some, you know, meaning and a little bit of, what's the word, not just not killing yourself, not going sad, not being depressed.

[1478] There's a medium there, a sweet spot.

[1479] Does that make sense?

[1480] Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[1481] So taking big leaps and Hemingway, grabbing life by the balls, but at the same time not crushing the balls, that metaphor work at all?

[1482] Perfect.

[1483] Like, evil can evil.

[1484] We all know.

[1485] him what a badass fearless oh man what a cool dude he's got balls of steel but he also lived like the back half of his life in a fucking uh you know bark a lounger where his legs were made of steel and he couldn't see straight and his dick didn't work so you know what i mean you've got to have a balance but you still want the balance i'm willing to take a little bit of shit for a little bit of fun but you don't want to go too hard because you got to still risk it i mean hunter has thompson it didn't end well.

[1486] That's quite a ride.

[1487] Quite a ride.

[1488] What small act of kindness were you once shown that you will never forget?

[1489] Wow, that's a great question.

[1490] I just wrote these for the guinea pig.

[1491] You're the guinea pig.

[1492] That's great.

[1493] That's a keeper.

[1494] Okay, that's a keeper.

[1495] This is where like workshopping questions here.

[1496] All right, I'll take it.

[1497] Now you're open biking.

[1498] Yeah.

[1499] This is your version.

[1500] Let's see.

[1501] There's a couple of ladies in high school who were kind of.

[1502] enough to hand job me. That was nice, which I really appreciate.

[1503] I don't think women know how much that means to us.

[1504] You know, women are like, I'm not a piece of meat or whatever.

[1505] And you're like, I know, but if you just gave me a hand job, it would make my world.

[1506] It's like telling a kid he's smart or loved.

[1507] See, most people mention like a math teacher, middle school that inspired them to get into science.

[1508] You give a shout out to the.

[1509] Well, that's part of it.

[1510] That's not the nicest, but I'm just saying that goes a long way.

[1511] All right.

[1512] Let's see.

[1513] Kindness.

[1514] That's a great.

[1515] question.

[1516] I want to give you a good answer.

[1517] I got lost when I was like six.

[1518] I was walking around my dad and I zoned out and went away.

[1519] And next thing you know, I don't know where I am.

[1520] I'm in a neighborhood.

[1521] This old guy finds me crying on a lawn somewhere and he goes, come inside and he tried to call my parents and nothing came of it.

[1522] Eventually, they found me after like nine hours.

[1523] Cops were there.

[1524] The FBI's out there, fucking helicopters.

[1525] And I guess, you know, that's nice.

[1526] This old guy took me in for a couple hours and just sat me down and kept me safe.

[1527] That's something.

[1528] Yeah.

[1529] Oh, how about Enis?

[1530] My transvestite nanny.

[1531] Very kind.

[1532] He, uh, did you hear about this?

[1533] No. Okay.

[1534] We had this transvestite nanny.

[1535] He was like a drag queen, but it was in the 90s.

[1536] It was weird.

[1537] It was new.

[1538] And, uh, my bike got stolen and he, you know, my parents are like, Yeah, what are you going to do?

[1539] They're poor kids, you know?

[1540] And he was like, fuck it, let's, we're going to go get that bike.

[1541] And I was like, this guy's in a wig at high heels, big black guy.

[1542] And I'm like, uh, ah, what are you going to do?

[1543] You know, it's gone.

[1544] And he's like, no, we're going to go get it.

[1545] So we got in the van and drove around my neighborhood, saw the kids, fuck with the bike, you know, five street tuffs.

[1546] And he goes, all right, you want to come out or should I just do this?

[1547] And I was like, you do it.

[1548] I'm terrified.

[1549] What are you crazy?

[1550] And he, he.

[1551] got out of the van in full, you know, heels and wig.

[1552] And he went up to these guys, and they went off, oh, my God, look at this fucking guy, homo, faggin, all this shit.

[1553] You know, it's the 90s.

[1554] And he just stared at him long enough to where they were kind of like, all right, well, I guess we're going to fight you now.

[1555] And he goes, that's not your bike.

[1556] And they go, what are you going to do about it?

[1557] And he puts his hand on the middle of the bike, and they didn't do anything.

[1558] And he just picked it up.

[1559] And so that's what I thought.

[1560] Put the bike over his shoulder, slid the van door open, threw the bike in, drove off somebody stuck up for you yeah and you know i mean he could have got i mean they're tools they could have fucking tuned him up two seconds that actually like takes courage oh yeah real courage and then that the the reason you do and act like that is that makes a kid like you feel like there's somebody on your side yes someone on your side is big is big that goes a long way Especially when they have the risk of getting their ass kicked or their job taken away or whatever it is.

[1561] Now we're going to get philosophical, maybe a little bit emotional.

[1562] Would you rather lose all your old memories or never be able to make new ones?

[1563] It's a tough one, but I'd go, easy answer, make new ones.

[1564] But don't you think all the shitty things that happened to you?

[1565] Oh, so my hard drive is white clean.

[1566] It's not...

[1567] Is it memories, or is it how every memory affected me, too?

[1568] I mean, this is a very...

[1569] Or do they go hand in hand?

[1570] I think the reality about memories is you replay them often.

[1571] You go back to them, even when you're not aware of it.

[1572] You really go back often.

[1573] Like that...

[1574] And they change.

[1575] You change them, too.

[1576] Yeah, you change them to suit your understanding of the world.

[1577] Yes.

[1578] And so the dark view you have, both the hope and the cynicism, you have about the world is so deeply grounded in the memories that you're basically, I would say if you erase all memories, I think you're really starting over with maybe the wisdom of how the world works, but not your so much your personality is gone.

[1579] You would really, it'd be interesting how your comedy would change.

[1580] Maybe you would have a good sense of timing.

[1581] you have a good sense of like the writing process maybe but like no you're making some good points but let me ask you this let's say I go to Lake Cuomo with my girlfriend now like I wipe the memory or I keep my old memories let's say I go to you know the Tuscany with the lady yeah I just won't remember that yeah but you get to experience it in the moment okay you get to enjoy it can I look at a photo of it yes but I was what the hell is this Yeah, exactly.

[1582] Oh, fascinating.

[1583] It's exact.

[1584] The rules are pretty simple.

[1585] I think everyone knows how the rules go.

[1586] So you would, yeah, so what?

[1587] Well, I was going to say start new ones, but then I realized I wouldn't be who I was without them.

[1588] That's what you're saying.

[1589] So I guess I'd keep them because I am 38, so I've gotten a good chunk out of life.

[1590] Yeah.

[1591] And let's be honest, how many years do you have left?

[1592] I know, right?

[1593] I got AIDS.

[1594] Is it better to have loved?

[1595] Okay, this question is ridiculous.

[1596] is it better to have loved than lost or to have never loved at all?

[1597] It sounds cliche, but there's a question.

[1598] Definitely better to loss.

[1599] So you enjoy the ups and downs?

[1600] Yeah, that's life.

[1601] The sun and rain, baby.

[1602] I kind of like both, the whole thing.

[1603] The loss, every time you lose something, it really makes you distinctly realize how much you valued it.

[1604] Yes.

[1605] Like, in my, when I'm sad, like when I'm feeling alone and I'm sitting there alone at home and I wish I could hang out with somebody that's like a realization how awesome people are yeah so it's like the missing the yeah we don't have a lot of that in life anymore because we can have anything we want immediately so the missing has gone away which again drives down the joy of having it so uh I uh I think you're right.

[1606] You need both.

[1607] So like you said, you have a condition that a terminal condition not many years left.

[1608] Do you think about your mortality?

[1609] You think about that?

[1610] All day, every day.

[1611] Are you afraid?

[1612] Not afraid, because it's inevitable.

[1613] So it's more like, how are we going to handle this?

[1614] It's like the winner is coming.

[1615] Let's stock up on some fucking nuts.

[1616] But the existential nature of it, like the fact that this ride ends, like what the hell are you doing any of this for?

[1617] Like, satisfaction, happiness, short term, but like there is a presumption there that it kind of goes on forever.

[1618] I think if you truly think about the fact that it ends, your brain almost shuts it down.

[1619] Yeah, there's some kind of like protective like switch that just goes off.

[1620] I mean, that's why the Stoics, you know, encourage people to meditate on death because it somehow reorganizes your priorities.

[1621] It helps you like, holy shit, this ends make the most of the day.

[1622] Yes.

[1623] It's just a nice thing.

[1624] But still, you can't quite comprehend the thing ends.

[1625] Little things, too.

[1626] You know, people go like, oh, we got a layover between our flights.

[1627] It's an hour.

[1628] What are we going to do for an hour?

[1629] It's like, what do are you going to do for an hour?

[1630] You're going to kill an hour?

[1631] Let's kill, how are we going to kill this hour?

[1632] This is part of your life.

[1633] You're just trying to get rid of it.

[1634] You're just trying to kill it.

[1635] That always blew my mind.

[1636] Like, hey, fuck it.

[1637] Let's hit the airport bar.

[1638] Let's get a, you know, a candy bar, something.

[1639] Anything with bar.

[1640] But it's just, you've got to live.

[1641] I hate this, like, how are we going to burn?

[1642] Oh, the bar didn't open for 15 minutes.

[1643] What are we going to do?

[1644] Well, we got 15 minutes.

[1645] We got the world as our Easter.

[1646] Yeah, make the most of it.

[1647] And like the, like you said, in modern day, actually the boredom is a gift.

[1648] Like, when you're waiting for something, that's a gift.

[1649] You get to be with your thoughts.

[1650] Yeah.

[1651] Those are the same thoughts you'll have.

[1652] when you're on your deathbed.

[1653] There won't be a, you won't be scrolling TikTok on your deathbed.

[1654] I hope not.

[1655] Jesus.

[1656] You'd be a lot more actually maybe you would be.

[1657] What a sad existence.

[1658] Because it would be a good, like content creators would be like, ooh, I'm dying.

[1659] This would be good content.

[1660] Yeah.

[1661] I want to be able to show, film the exact moment.

[1662] It goes, be last words.

[1663] I wonder what my last words will be.

[1664] It's a good way to like end the account with a bang.

[1665] Yep.

[1666] I like that.

[1667] Well, you know, you ever seen that meme where the old guy in bed?

[1668] He goes, I wish I had tweeted more, you know, and then he dies.

[1669] It's so true.

[1670] Could be the future.

[1671] What do you think is the meaning of life?

[1672] I don't think there is one.

[1673] Everybody always throws that out there.

[1674] There isn't a meaning.

[1675] I think we're here.

[1676] We're lucky to be here.

[1677] I think there's no afterlife.

[1678] There's no heaven.

[1679] That's all shit.

[1680] We tell ourselves to feel better.

[1681] And I think you got to just, it's like saying, what is the meaning of this food I made?

[1682] well it's just you enjoy the food you try to get the most out of it you you built the food you prepared it so just get what you can out of it don't die and try to make it last as long as possible yeah but you look at earth it's like four billion years old and uh life started early on like like simple cell bacteria life like a one billion years in and then it started like having lots of aggressive interaction eventually there's predator and prey and there's sex lots of sex lots of sex lots of violence oh yeah uh and then you know through natural selection there's just the whole evolutionary process of of animals that have loved and lost and murdered and gotten murdered and all that kind of stuff and it's somehow led to human civilization we're super busy trying to create things and creating beautiful art creating beautiful comedy yeah just always create it feels like it's tending towards something like it's not dying if you die tomorrow you still have all these hours of pods so it's kind of you think you're cheating death in a subconscious way i think right you know who ernest becker is and i've heard the name uh it's a book called denial of death this idea that that uh if you don't acknowledge books on my show girls love it like justiyovsky uh no i'm just I'm saying you want to bring told stories to ask you Russian literature it's the back to norm it's good to bring to uh because because uh no American has read any Russian literature but they all appreciate it if you bring it and it's not like they're going to ask you any legitimate questions because they haven't read it yeah so you can always pretend like you've read it so it's a little dense can we get a shortened version cliff notes yes or make a movie with uh you know Ben Stiller that I that I can just go oh this is based on what is it a life and death no what's the one war and peace war in peace yeah yeah yeah so ernest becker's theory and there's this whole terror management theory that basically says that like our terror of death our fear of death is one of the central creative forces of the human condition it's the reason we're trying to yeah cheat death we're trying to dilute ourselves that somehow we can become immortal through our art it's why you've uploaded your special to YouTube because you think, you think your special will outlive all of human civilization.

[1683] You think YouTube will outlive all of human civilization.

[1684] That could go away tomorrow.

[1685] That can go away tomorrow.

[1686] All of this can go away.

[1687] So I'm truly grateful, Mr. Mark Norman, that you would spend your very valuable time with me today, even though it could all go away.

[1688] This could be the last day of our lives.

[1689] And won't you be quite upset?

[1690] This is how you spent it.

[1691] Ah, yeah, and you're a hotel room.

[1692] What am I?

[1693] Yeah.

[1694] You're like Harvey Weinstein here.

[1695] You've heard me up, and now I feel fucked.

[1696] Just wait what we have ready for you after the podcast is over.

[1697] Hi, brother.

[1698] Thanks so much for talking today.

[1699] Thank you.

[1700] That was great.

[1701] Comedy.

[1702] Thanks for listening to this conversation with Mark Norman.

[1703] To support this podcast, please check out our sponsors in the description.

[1704] And now let me leave you with some words from Mark Norman himself on his Twitter, which you should definitely follow because it's hilarious.

[1705] The worst thing about getting Amacron for Christmas is you know it was re -gifted.

[1706] Thank you for listening and hope to see you next time.