Ethan Hawke

[0] Hi, arm cherries.

[1] It's miniature mouse here.

[2] I just wanted to add a little disclaimer to this episode.

[3] If you haven't heard SAG AFRA has joined the strike.

[4] So it's a double strike now with the WGA.

[5] And it is important to say that we recorded this episode before SAG went on strike.

[6] So when we're talking about projects and everything we talk about, please note that we have since striked and some things have changed.

[7] But I wanted to make that clear.

[8] Now, let's on with the show.

[9] Welcome, welcome, welcome to armchair expert.

[10] I'm Dan Shepard.

[11] I'm joined by Monica Lilly Badman.

[12] Good morning to you.

[13] We've got a repeat guest, but it's different.

[14] Different.

[15] Because the only time we had this guest, it was at a live show.

[16] That's right.

[17] In Brooklyn, New York.

[18] With another person there.

[19] Vincent Dinoffrio.

[20] Correct.

[21] So we've not had one -on -one Ethan Hawk.

[22] Yeah.

[23] This was fun.

[24] It was really fun.

[25] I really, really liked it.

[26] I find him to be so authentically interesting.

[27] Yes.

[28] He's lived a lot of Hollywood life, too.

[29] Yeah.

[30] He's like a real artist.

[31] Yeah.

[32] I mean, he's so driven by art. Yeah.

[33] It's really admirable.

[34] And as you've heard me talk about on here a million times, the last movie stars, which is the most incredible documentary about Paul Newman and Joanne Woodward, that is streaming now on Max.

[35] I loved that.

[36] Ethan directed it.

[37] Ethan directed it.

[38] It's incredible.

[39] He was also in Training Day, Boyhood, the before trilogy, Reality Bites, and did, of course, Dead Poets Society when he was a chill, little chill -in.

[40] But before we go, I would love to put out the four prompts for September for Armchair Anonymous.

[41] We have four new categories of stories that you can submit to armchairexpertpod .com.

[42] Number one, tell us about a crazy school dance.

[43] experience.

[44] Number two, tell us a crazy waxing story debacle.

[45] Number three, and this is for our international listeners, tell us about your worst trip to the USA.

[46] Lastly, tell us about an embarrassing, failed romantic pursuit.

[47] Please enjoy Mr. Ethan Hawk.

[48] Wondry Plus subscribers can listen to armchair expert early and ad free right now.

[49] Join Wondry Plus in the Wondry app or on Apple Or you can listen for free wherever you get your podcasts.

[50] When was our live show?

[51] Wow, five years ago.

[52] It was that long ago?

[53] It feels like, I don't know, 18 months ago.

[54] I know.

[55] Yes, exactly.

[56] This is what I hate about getting older.

[57] Like, it's just a time swirl.

[58] That was kind of a crazy day, too, because you and Vincent have known each other a long time, and I've known Vincent a long time.

[59] And Vincent's so intense and wild.

[60] And it was kind of a hard conversation to navigate.

[61] Yeah, a lot of bulls on stage.

[62] Yeah, smashing around the China shop.

[63] Well, I want to publicly thank you for doing that because what a leap of faith for you.

[64] You've never heard the show.

[65] You don't know me. Come in front of a few thousand people and do this live.

[66] Yeah, it was intense, man. It was like being shot from a rocket.

[67] It was a pretty new show at the time, too.

[68] Yeah.

[69] But Vincent loves you, so I had complete faith.

[70] I have him to think as well.

[71] But genuinely, thank you so much for that.

[72] That was an incredible, like you bailed us out of so much stress by agreeing to do that.

[73] And you were so fucking good, too.

[74] Oh, good.

[75] I'm glad.

[76] That was a really fun night, ultimately.

[77] But I had the same anxiety because Vincent is, God, I heard you searching for an adjective.

[78] There isn't one for him, really.

[79] He's truly unique.

[80] He's so many things wrapped in one human being.

[81] I was with Donofrio once.

[82] We were on the set of Mag 7, which talk about a lot of bulls.

[83] Oh, my God.

[84] Well, as soon as I heard he and Denzo would be in the same square of mine.

[85] I was like, what's going to happen?

[86] What's going to happen?

[87] We were on this fake Hollywood main street of an old Western, right?

[88] And there was one room that had air conditioning.

[89] It was like 107.

[90] So we were all just crowded in there.

[91] And somebody said something honest.

[92] Like, you know, I'm really insecure.

[93] And the cameras come on me. Somebody made fun of the guy.

[94] And Vincent made fun of the guy who made fun of him.

[95] And he started a conversation in which everyone in this room were talking a lot of testosterone, a lot of phoniness, a lot of bullshit, and everyone's guard came down.

[96] And we started having one of the most honest conversations about growing up, about how to be a father, real stuff started coming out of people, like grown men, misty -eyed.

[97] And Vincent guided the whole thing.

[98] Yes.

[99] Now, that's Vincent.

[100] And then I've been...

[101] When he wasn't...

[102] When he wasn't Buda Donofrio, because he was Buddha Donofrio that day.

[103] And then sometimes he's Italian Stallion Donofrio.

[104] Sometimes he's gangster Denofrio.

[105] For you know.

[106] Somebody once tried to pick a fight with me, and Vincent just took the guy, you don't want to say that.

[107] And I said, I say whatever the hell I want.

[108] No, the problem is if you say that, then I'm going to beat you with an inch of your life.

[109] Then I'm going to be in a lawsuit, and I'm going to have all this headache.

[110] And can you just save me the headache of having to kick your ass?

[111] Yes.

[112] Even said, if this old thing is about whose dick is bigger, I'm going to drop trial right now.

[113] You'll know mine's bigger.

[114] And we can move on.

[115] Now we can proceed.

[116] Well, that is the majesty of Donofrio is upon first glance in interaction, you're like, well, A, physically, he's enormous.

[117] He has an intensity about him.

[118] You've probably already heard a few stories about him from his earlier days.

[119] And then when you look closer and closer, you realize I'm identical to him.

[120] I'm so sensitive and insecure.

[121] And all of this is to protect me from that.

[122] And like, once you spot that, there's a beauty to him.

[123] And if you come with that towards him, he will just open it all up.

[124] He'll match you.

[125] And if you come to him with a lot of boys.

[126] bullshit, you're going to get it.

[127] Yeah.

[128] Yeah, exactly.

[129] If you write a check, your butt can't cash, he'll be cashing it for you.

[130] He'll cash it for you.

[131] Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[132] He is so fucking lovely.

[133] By the way, this is what will be a big part of my inquiry on the last movie stars is there are still people that I'm flattered that they like me, and he's one of them.

[134] I just had a vivid memory of once talking out of turn about him, where I was telling somebody a story that I thought was funny that involved him.

[135] And I walked away from the conversation.

[136] I was really mad at myself because I knew he wouldn't have wanted me to tell that story.

[137] I hold him in such high regard that I was like, why wouldn't he want me to tell that?

[138] Because it's gossip and because it's cheap, and it's not my story to tell.

[139] He makes me want to be the version of myself I like best.

[140] And then I realize, oh, I'm not worried Vincent's going to be mad at me. I'm mad at me. Right.

[141] I'm disappointed in myself.

[142] So I hold him in such high regard.

[143] You want to live up to the fact that he's trusted you.

[144] To the grownup that he has asked me to be.

[145] He has so many incredible stories that it's very tempting to tell his stories because some of the best I've ever heard.

[146] I have a fantasy someday of being 73 in, I want to lock myself with old man Donofrio and the typewriter.

[147] And I want to write them all down.

[148] I want to do like a memoir of a character actor.

[149] This guy has stories that you cannot believe except they're so bizarre that it has be true.

[150] You wouldn't think to make that up.

[151] We were doing a play once together and this became a running gag.

[152] We were doing a brecht play but there were eight guys trapped in this tiny dress room, smaller than this room and Vincent would hold court, right, as everybody's getting ready and you knew the story was good when Vincent said, hey, yo, close the door.

[153] By the way, that's the title of your book.

[154] Close the door.

[155] That's where I was going with this.

[156] Because that became the joke is when we would get there before he arrived is, I hope we get to close the door a moment today.

[157] I wonder if we'll get another close the door.

[158] I hope it involves this starlet.

[159] Yeah, this A -list actor, heart drop.

[160] Yeah.

[161] You feel very safe around him, which can be sort of ironic because he can also invite danger.

[162] It's funny, you know, that you say that because I've known him a long time so there's chapters to our friendship.

[163] How long?

[164] 94.

[165] Oh my goodness.

[166] 30 years.

[167] Yeah.

[168] It was one time when I was so angry at somebody.

[169] I was driving over to this guy's house because I was so, man. You know that kind of anger where all you hear is your blood pumping in your ears.

[170] And your visions reducing.

[171] And it's getting red.

[172] People say he saw red.

[173] Well, you kind of do see red.

[174] It's like your eyes are getting bloodshot or something.

[175] And I decided, who can I call who's going to give me permission?

[176] Because I didn't want to call my brother who was going to tell me not to do it.

[177] I want to somebody say, this is how you do it.

[178] Take his knees out.

[179] That's who I wanted.

[180] And he was just like, no, no, no, no, pull the car off.

[181] What are you doing driving?

[182] and he talked me down.

[183] Really?

[184] He's done that in different moments I was about to blow my life up and I actually sought him out to give me permission to blow it up and he didn't do it.

[185] Yeah, my hobby when I worked with him was he is Vincent 2 .0.

[186] But that's not to say that you can't visually watch him step over all the old bad habits in route to the Vincent 2 .0 action and I know he and I are triggered by the exact same things like the endless tugging of your wardrobe by people.

[187] My hobby was just, Watching him go through the situations that I knew were driving him insane, but then watching him come out on the other side with some kind of kindness and everything.

[188] And just knowing what the struggle was to get to the nice response to everything was a huge preoccupation of mine.

[189] He has a pathology that I really admire, which is that he's pathologically defensive of someone else being bullied.

[190] I mean, he's the type of person that will take a bullet if you are hurting somebody smaller, weaker, more fragile than you are.

[191] He's a sheriff.

[192] He's a sheriff.

[193] Oh, my God.

[194] He's a sheriff.

[195] We have to call him about my neighbor.

[196] Oh, my God.

[197] I have a bully neighbor right now.

[198] Who I've had been talked off the ledge of confronting six or seven times.

[199] He can get on it.

[200] We'll outsource that to Norfolkio the next time he's here.

[201] Well, we had such a good talk last time, and we talked a lot about your childhood and stuff.

[202] And then yet today, I kind of discovered some more stuff.

[203] I just have so much parallel with you, three -year -old divorce, four -year -old divorce, living with mom.

[204] I think the thing that I learned about you today that I really identified with is this notion that you were playing two different characters for each parent.

[205] And it was geographically very extreme, right?

[206] So you have the East Coast with mom.

[207] And Mom is very much academic, politically minded, artistic.

[208] Dad's conservative and still in Texas and religious.

[209] And that you would even like adopt kind of a southern accent when you were home.

[210] That crisis of conscious or identity at some point where you're like, am I a real thing at all?

[211] Or am I just a performance for whoever is love I want?

[212] Well, I mean, that's a fundamental question.

[213] that think people who go through divorce as a child, it doesn't even matter how good your parents try to be and say nice things.

[214] You feel in your body that they don't love each other anymore.

[215] And you feel a disapproval of one of your parents, which does feel like half of you.

[216] So you're going to your fathers, huh?

[217] I hope you're going to keep reading.

[218] You're going to go to the Church of Christ?

[219] Okay.

[220] Or you could invert it.

[221] Your mom took you to see that movie.

[222] And she feels okay about that.

[223] And you're like, I guess she did.

[224] She took me. I don't know.

[225] You kind of feel like you're betraying either of them.

[226] And listen, here's the hard thing.

[227] I've faced this line from two directions.

[228] I'm the parent of two children through a divorce.

[229] I've failed the same way my parents did.

[230] And so I've looked at this pretty intimately.

[231] And I do think that for me as a kid, that question of which one is the real me?

[232] And then the next question, is there a real me?

[233] And then you meet this beautiful girl in your science class.

[234] and then you're kind of a different dude.

[235] Like, who's this guy?

[236] Whatever she wants is what dude he is.

[237] Yeah, it's like, who is this guy who's saying this stuff that she wants to hear?

[238] And this feels true, too.

[239] I think part of growing older is realizing that they're all you, that it isn't that you're lying.

[240] It's that there's different aspects of yourself that are being fed, and they flourish when they're fed. And growing up, you start to have the confidence in the weirdo that you, really are.

[241] And you start in the confidence to say to mom, no, I really like this aspect of my father's life.

[242] And I'm not going to back down off it just because I also love you.

[243] And you start to realize that you're a lot bigger than you thought.

[244] And once you discover acting though, I had a real problem, which is I would see like one food of the cuckus nest.

[245] I'm like, all right, who the hell's Jack Nicholson?

[246] And I watch Chinatown and the list of great Jack Nicholson movies.

[247] And then I'd go through space like I was Jack Nicholson.

[248] Or I'd read on the road.

[249] And I'd start thinking I was Neil Cassidy.

[250] And it wasn't on purpose.

[251] It was my body doing it.

[252] I didn't want to be myself.

[253] I liked these people better than myself.

[254] So in a way, it was honest.

[255] It was like, I'm trying to be more like this.

[256] I remember, this is embarrassing.

[257] But when the doors came out, perfect age, I'm 21, 22, and I love Jim Morrison.

[258] Val Kilmer is an apex Val Kilmer powers.

[259] It's just, but all of a sudden, I couldn't go to a party walking through the door.

[260] I had to climb up the firescape and go through the window.

[261] I had to take my shirt off.

[262] And I had to like, I'm like, who is this person?

[263] You start to hang out with the deadheads at school.

[264] You're like, maybe I'm a deadhead.

[265] You get on the football team, like, no, no, I'm a jock.

[266] I'm a jock.

[267] And then you hang out with the guys doing the play, and you're like, you know what?

[268] Theater type, that's who I am.

[269] And you're like, no, these are all aspects of me. How can I build a self that these aren't lies?

[270] Integrating.

[271] Like, that's the one my therapist will use.

[272] That's the key, right?

[273] Is learning how to weave all these things together into one kind of unapologetic version of yourself.

[274] And to start to isolate, no, that is a lie.

[275] I don't think that.

[276] Because when you start isolating out those things, then the true version of yourself can hopefully appear.

[277] And I think if that happens as we get older and older, we just get weird.

[278] And I think that's the goal is to just get really funky.

[279] I mean, look at you right now.

[280] I mean, you're doing it.

[281] Oh, I know.

[282] It's only getting more and more obscure.

[283] But yeah, I think we would have originally, historically thought older people just ran out of patience or like pleasantries.

[284] But I think it's exactly what you're saying.

[285] is it's actually just an acceptance of who they are and a lack of trying to present otherwise.

[286] I remember I worked with this older actor once, and I love this guy.

[287] He was a Canadian Shakespearean actor, and the actor went on stage, and he forgot his like sword or something like that, right?

[288] And he kind of ran on stage, and he ran back and got his sword.

[289] This older actor and I were sitting right by the prop table waiting for our entrance, and he picks up his sword, and he looks at this older actor, and he says, I know, I know.

[290] A good actor takes care of his own props.

[291] I know you don't have to tell me. And this will just say, your props aren't your problem.

[292] Your problem is you're a terrible actor.

[293] Oh, my God.

[294] And the guy, like, smiled and ran off.

[295] And I was like, that is so mean.

[296] Yeah.

[297] And he said, that's because you're only in your 30s.

[298] He said, he is a terrible actor.

[299] And the sooner he finds out, and the sooner he accepts it, the sooner he's going to move on to the rest of his life, which might be amazing.

[300] But he cannot act his way out of a paper.

[301] paper bag, and he's never going to.

[302] Did you agree with his assessment, or do you think it was a little cruel?

[303] I thought it was cruel.

[304] But he was tired.

[305] Yes.

[306] And he was tired of nurturing and helping, and he was brutal.

[307] But I do think in this time period we're in right now where everybody's so nurturing and everybody gets a trophy and we're not allowed to say negative thoughts about anybody.

[308] When I think about some of the quote -unquote abuse I got from older people when I was younger that really helped me. I remember I was on set the other day, and it was a young actor.

[309] The craft service table telling me how much he loved me and thought it's amazing and I was inspiration.

[310] And I'm talking to him about the scene and he yawns.

[311] And he was like, yeah, I guess so.

[312] You know?

[313] You know.

[314] Hold on a second.

[315] That's so funny.

[316] When I was younger, when I was first starting acting, I was working on a movie with this director I really admired.

[317] And one of the young people in the scenes when he was directing yawned.

[318] And this director slapped him across the face.

[319] Wow.

[320] Wow.

[321] And said, do you have somewhere else to be?

[322] Are you tired?

[323] Because you don't have to be here.

[324] And I know that that director would get in trouble now, right?

[325] Oh, I think so.

[326] Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[327] And I know for a fact I never yawned in anybody's face again.

[328] Our mutual friend, Donofrio, just to go back to him, when I was young, I ran by my audition for training day with Vincent.

[329] He's like my pal, and he's a great acting teacher, and I was like, I got to get this part.

[330] He's running through the scene with me. And he's like, what are all these pauses?

[331] I'm like, well, you know, I'm just thinking this.

[332] I got an idea for you.

[333] You pause again.

[334] I'm going to punch you in the face.

[335] Say the line.

[336] He's embodied Denzel's character in some bizarre way.

[337] But here's the thing is that sometimes we need to wake up and realize that the world is not our best friend.

[338] There's a time to excel and there's a time to be the best version of yourself.

[339] And, you know, we see this in sports all the time and we love it.

[340] But the same is true in every walk of life of what is excellence.

[341] What Vincent was saying is stop pandering, stop trying to be cool, stop do this now, do this with me. when I was rehearsing once with Phil Hoffman, today is the day.

[342] Rehearsing is the performance.

[343] If we half -ass it in practice, we half -ass it on game day.

[344] Did you see the Beatles doc get back?

[345] Oh, the Peter Jackson one?

[346] Yeah.

[347] I did not.

[348] What's fun is when you watch McCarney and Lenin, they're going at it and they're singing so hard.

[349] I realize they're basically doing an acting exercise, which is they're constantly making fun of each other.

[350] They're constantly doing it in different voices.

[351] They're constantly doing a totally different version of the song.

[352] They're shaking it and shaking it.

[353] And then what happens is they get, live and they're still playful.

[354] And that's what we respond to.

[355] They're always playful.

[356] They are cultivating spontaneity as a work ethos.

[357] That's a repetition exercise.

[358] Well, that's a great parallel for acting in fact, because at least if you read the Gladwell book and you subscribe to the notion that they had gotten their 10 ,000 hours, the Beatles, while playing in those brothels and strip clubs.

[359] Yeah, me too.

[360] That's the same as the advice.

[361] Learn the lines inside and out so you can forget them.

[362] That's virtually what it is.

[363] People don't want to work that hard sometimes.

[364] Like, Dinafria once gave me this exercise when we were talking about these pauses.

[365] He's like, it's too much acting.

[366] I want you to do this speech.

[367] Unlace your shoes.

[368] And I want you to lace your shoes while you do the speech and I want you not to miss a beat.

[369] And it's great, I give this to my daughter sometimes.

[370] It's like, if you've got a big speech, you think you know it.

[371] Yeah, you kind of know it.

[372] Do you know it well enough to, like, recite it while you play basketball and are passing the thing back and forth?

[373] Because if you were really talking, playing basketball does not stop your train of thought.

[374] At all, yeah, you're right?

[375] to remember something.

[376] It's super confusing.

[377] Yes, yes, yes.

[378] You know, but you've got to get to the place to where you're not remembering it.

[379] It is thought.

[380] Yeah.

[381] Okay, back to the trying on the different characters, learning to integrate, being infected by other people you looked up to.

[382] You say it explicitly.

[383] Football team, church youth group, black kids, white kids, graphic novel reading geeks, theater nerds, punk rock girls, deadheads.

[384] I was a good bullshit artist.

[385] I also didn't judge anybody.

[386] So this is my exact route as well.

[387] I've kind of diagnosed it as I'm obsessed with microcultures.

[388] I spot one.

[389] There's something of interest in it for me. And then I want to submerge myself in it.

[390] And I want to be able to pass as it.

[391] I would have these conflicting thoughts about that.

[392] The most negative deduction is I'm very entitled, which is kind of true.

[393] You should belong everywhere.

[394] I want to be invited to everybody.

[395] I want to be with the cool kids and the outcast.

[396] I didn't want to miss a fucking thing.

[397] If something looked fun, I wanted to be able to go experience it.

[398] Some of it's a bit of entitlement.

[399] Another part of it I'm such a fucking romantic, but sometimes I do challenge myself to distinguish between romanticism and narcissism.

[400] Do you have that thought ever?

[401] Do you ever confront yourself?

[402] It's like, I'm trying to tell this grand story of my life.

[403] Well, that's the narcissism.

[404] When you're telling the story of your life, when you start seeing yourself in third person, I am this type of person.

[405] Yeah.

[406] He walked into the party shirtless, climbing up the fires.

[407] You're writing your own memoir, and you're not actually in the moment.

[408] You're not actually listening to other people.

[409] You're not actually talking to other people, you're performing for them.

[410] And that is, for lack of a better word, bogus.

[411] But what you're right about is when you use the word romanticism, for example, my mother was worried that I was becoming an entitled little shit when I was 16, and she brought me to Haiti.

[412] And we worked in Mother Teresa's Home for the Dying.

[413] And one of the things you learn when you're there is that you don't have very much to offer anybody, because they're awesome.

[414] There was so much, yes, poverty, and there was so much music, and there was so much laughter, and there was so much silliness, and there was so much sex, and there was so much life, that it was like, who is feeling sorry for who?

[415] Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

[416] You start breaking down, like, what is a successful life, actually?

[417] We're all part of a chain of dominoes, and none of these people asked to be born here.

[418] They're all just responding to their given context, and we're all, like, a string of firecrack.

[419] This thing started blowing long before we got here, and we're just going.

[420] caught in the same string, and you start to see the beauty, and that is contagious and the cure to narcissism, because you're actually starting to give everybody a chance.

[421] And so you can see the kids playing rap music on the street and see them as the bodilayer of the future.

[422] That is poetry.

[423] That is the real thing.

[424] Oh, Jay -Z is Picasso.

[425] That is it.

[426] Yeah, for sure.

[427] You want to see Picasso.

[428] That is it.

[429] And so you start breaking down the laws of high art, low art, good person, bad, person and you start to try to see the individual.

[430] And that's what being a romantic to me means is seeing the individual loving them.

[431] And if you have a little love in your heart, then you can actually find them accountable for their flaws because you're not hating on them.

[432] You're loving on them.

[433] It's strange that you say narcissism or romanticism because if you're the main character of every story, you've lost the plot.

[434] When you see yourself as a player in a larger context, A, your shoulders relax because you're not responsible for everything, and you can have agency.

[435] I think we can also have some compassion for young us, young everybody.

[436] It has been much easier for me to not have to be the lead character in all these experiences.

[437] As I've acquired true self -esteem, like I don't know that I've evolved because of all my hard work as much as I've also been granted some things that have allowed me to go, who, okay, you did it.

[438] You defined yourself.

[439] Now let's look around.

[440] It makes me think about one of my first coaches.

[441] that said that real confidence only comes from experience.

[442] Young people have to fake it.

[443] Right.

[444] They've been living out of her over three months.

[445] And so you could put a negative view on it that you're like proud of yourself for your accomplishments.

[446] It might sound like you got your awards on your shelf and now you don't have to do anything.

[447] Or you could call it experience.

[448] The benefit of getting older is you have fucking experience.

[449] You've done some things.

[450] You've won some fights.

[451] You've lost them and picked yourself back up again.

[452] So now you know you can take a shot.

[453] You're not going to die.

[454] and it gives you real confidence.

[455] I go through it all the time, talking about this documentary.

[456] Like, what business do I have making a documentary?

[457] Right?

[458] No business at all.

[459] But I've done enough weird shit in my life to know that every time I do it, I learn something.

[460] And sometimes it works.

[461] Sometimes it doesn't.

[462] If I fall on my ass, I will figure it out.

[463] And I would venture to say, when I think back on the things that other people have perceived as, you know, failures are unsuccessful, they're often the things where I actually learn the most.

[464] When I think back on my life, it's strange to me that I love the dark periods.

[465] And the times of my life I thought my career bottomed out were the times of the most growth.

[466] So you start to realize you're actually in this equation that is fantastic because if you fail and respond the right way, you win.

[467] And if you win, you win.

[468] So my mother made this thing for me. It's so funny.

[469] I was super nervous about, I forget whether it was an audition or a play coming out.

[470] And she wrote this graph.

[471] It's like, okay, you audition for the piece in the top of the chart was auditioning.

[472] It goes well, you get the part.

[473] It goes badly, you don't get the part.

[474] Look like a family tree.

[475] So if you go right and it goes bad and you don't get the part, what happens next?

[476] You work hard on the next door, you get a better part.

[477] Or it goes well, you do get the part.

[478] The movie is actually a big colossal failure.

[479] You become a drug addict and you hate your stuff forever.

[480] Or it's a big hit.

[481] You win the Oscar.

[482] You become a narcissistic asshole.

[483] But every channel that the graph went down had the same last two lines.

[484] handle it well, be happy, handle it poorly, be miserable, and then you die.

[485] And it was like, so she went to every possible scenario, which way my life was going to go.

[486] And here's the truth.

[487] Handle it well, it's great.

[488] Handle it poorly, it sucks.

[489] Basically, like, every time you lose, maybe you didn't lose.

[490] This could be the moment where I really learned my left hand.

[491] This could be the moment where I really learn how to be a team player.

[492] And I know that sounds a little self -helpy.

[493] No, no, no. Ethan, if I chart my career, it couldn't be more obvious, which is like a string of movie failures lands me where I don't want to be, which is on a TV show for six years, which is the best work experience in my life.

[494] I direct a movie.

[495] It doesn't do well financially.

[496] Back to the drawing boards, it's this, the best thing that's ever happened.

[497] You know, like every failure of mine was followed pretty quickly with one of the better things of my life.

[498] Let's take explorers.

[499] Yeah, Explores is a great example.

[500] Explorers.

[501] It's you in River Phoenix.

[502] The movie comes out.

[503] It doesn't.

[504] and do well, you overhear an executive actually say, America voted, Ethan Hawk is not a star.

[505] Yeah.

[506] This is actually perfect for you to hear at 16, 17.

[507] You don't know it yet.

[508] I was 14.

[509] But just look at their trajectory.

[510] I'm not trying to monetize or profit off of the tragic ending of River Phoenix, but it's not a crazy leap to think.

[511] You hear the executive go, well, Ethan's the star or this.

[512] We don't know if you're not dead in eight years.

[513] Yeah.

[514] The person that won in that story was River.

[515] But life is long.

[516] and it's hard to know what the victory is.

[517] That feels scary.

[518] Well, what feels scary to me is giving perception of victory or defeat to any schmuck in a bathroom stall.

[519] River was the first.

[520] He burned really bright, really fast.

[521] And it costs a lot, I gather.

[522] There's a line in the Bible, Lord protect me from what I want.

[523] What we want is not often what is good for us.

[524] No, no, no. Almost never.

[525] in your life, you wanted this and instead you got that, it turned out to be better.

[526] Yeah, when I was a kid, man, I really wanted to be a child star.

[527] I wanted to be Corey Feldman or Corey name.

[528] Every girl love you.

[529] That was my idea of what greatness was.

[530] Like, we don't even know what to pray for.

[531] And so I was undervaluing my own journey.

[532] It's an illusion we're in competition with each other.

[533] There is not one pie.

[534] His success is not my failure.

[535] They have nothing to do with each other.

[536] Right.

[537] And it's so hard for young people to absorb.

[538] At one time, you had the Rolling Stones, the Who, Led Zeppelin, and the Beatles all playing at the same time.

[539] Plenty of pie to go around.

[540] Isn't it amazing, you know, the lesser bands of that era are classic bands.

[541] The door, you know, we read to them.

[542] Like, they don't even make the top ten of that era.

[543] And, I mean, I was watching the last waltz the other day, and I was like, what is happening in music?

[544] These guys are so brilliant.

[545] But when you're young and a grown -up is saying, this person's a star, this person's not a star.

[546] You can't.

[547] Oh, you can't unhears.

[548] I hear that.

[549] Unhear that, it hurts.

[550] Oh, it hurts.

[551] Tears for shed.

[552] But those are good tears because you have to ask yourself, well, then why am I doing it?

[553] Yeah.

[554] That's always what I say to young people now is if you're asking what you can give your profession, it's going to go great.

[555] And if you're asking, what is your profession going to give back to you?

[556] It's going to be misery.

[557] Because it's never going to be enough.

[558] There's not enough parties.

[559] There's not enough love.

[560] It is an unsatiable quench.

[561] for adoration.

[562] You'll be number one in like six of these categories, and then you'll see some young person unbridled by all that, giving some performance that's clearly free and effortless, and you'll be jealous.

[563] Yeah.

[564] It's going to keep happening.

[565] Yeah.

[566] You have a journal entry from just after Dead Poets where it's like, I don't want to be a movie star.

[567] I don't not want to be a movie star.

[568] It's like St. Augustine, right?

[569] Lord Grant me, Chastity, but not yet.

[570] You were about to say something, Monica.

[571] Oh, I was going to say, could we unpack handle it well, because that's kind of vague, right?

[572] Do we think that means have a positive attitude?

[573] What does it mean handle it well?

[574] When the bad thing happens, let me say from an AA perspective, self -aggrandizement is on one side of a coin, self -pity's on the other side of the coin.

[575] They're the same exact thing.

[576] They're self -indulgent, self -importance, narcissistic.

[577] Same thing with arrogance and insecurity.

[578] They're the same thing.

[579] Yeah.

[580] So if something bad happens to you, I think the bad outcome is you take it personal.

[581] There's an agenda in the universe against you.

[582] You're a victim as opposed to, I keep moving, I keep working, I keep going.

[583] That's behind me. That's like how you handle things well.

[584] And I think when you spiral into a self -importance.

[585] Put simply, I think, humility has self -respect attached to it.

[586] You are beautiful and unique and wonderful just like everyone else.

[587] And that doesn't mean you're not beautiful, wonderful, and unique.

[588] You are just like everyone else.

[589] And I think that failure is a great tool for humility.

[590] Because first of all, the world is not a reliable critic of you or anyone else.

[591] The amount of great performances that were ridiculed, I remember I had a great friend once.

[592] I got some just lacerating bad reviews in a play that I was doing.

[593] And this friend of mine sent me Peter O'Toole's terrible review and Robert Duvall's terrible review of this thing.

[594] As somebody making fun of James Earl Jones, And he found all these great, terrible reviews of actors I love.

[595] And you're like, this is the cool club.

[596] These guys survived it, and so can I. Fuck you.

[597] I'm doing it.

[598] But it also goes, do I really think I'm so great that I don't ever fail?

[599] That's insane.

[600] It's like, yeah, guess what?

[601] Maybe the world didn't like what I did.

[602] Maybe they're right.

[603] It's okay.

[604] It doesn't mean I shouldn't have tried.

[605] When I was a young man, I put this on my door, I loved it so much.

[606] The line in one flew over the cuckoo's nest when he bets all the other lunatics that he can ripped the sink from the thing and throw it through the window.

[607] He tries, he tries, and he tries, and he tries, and he can't, and he looks at the moment, they're all laughing.

[608] He goes, at least I tried.

[609] At least I tried.

[610] Yeah.

[611] And I thought, I'll take that to my grave.

[612] This is amazing, because I wrote down Bukowski's quote, don't try.

[613] That was my marketing orders.

[614] Don't try.

[615] Well, they both don't try, too sides of the same coin as well.

[616] Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[617] Stay tuned for more armchair expert, if you dare.

[618] What's up, guys, this is your girl Kiki, and my podcast is back with a new season.

[619] And let me tell you, it's too good.

[620] And I'm diving into the brains of entertainment's best and brightest, okay?

[621] Every episode, I bring on a friend and have a real conversation.

[622] And I don't mean just friends.

[623] I mean the likes of Amy Polar, Kell Mitchell, Vivica Fox, the list goes on.

[624] So follow, watch, and listen to Baby.

[625] This is Kiki Palmer on the Wondery app or wherever you get your podcast.

[626] We've all been there.

[627] the internet to self -diagnose our inexplicable pains, debilitating body aches, sudden fevers, and strange rashes.

[628] Though our minds tend to spiral to worst -case scenarios, it's usually nothing, but for an unlucky few, these unsuspecting symptoms can start the clock ticking on a terrifying medical mystery.

[629] Like the unexplainable death of a retired firefighter, whose body was found at home by his son, except it looked like he had been cremated, or the time when an entire town started jumping from buildings and seeing tigers on their ceilings.

[630] Hey listeners, it's Mr. Ballin here, and I'm here to tell you about my podcast.

[631] It's called Mr. Ballin's Medical Mysteries.

[632] Each terrifying true story will be sure to keep you up at night.

[633] Follow Mr. Ballin's Medical Mysteries wherever you get your podcasts.

[634] Prime members can listen early and add free on Amazon Music.

[635] Okay, those are all really wonderful lines of thought in leading up to the last movie stars, because the only actor I ever was obsessed with where it's like, I moved to L .A. I didn't do theater in high school.

[636] I got into comedy, and I started thinking I should educate myself on movies a bit.

[637] There was vidiates, this great video store on the west side.

[638] They had a Paul Newman section, and I just decided I'm going to start at the beginning.

[639] I'm going to go through this whole thing.

[640] And I did.

[641] I watch every single Paul Newman movie.

[642] There's just so many reasons why he's worthy of your obsession.

[643] Then I come to meet a lot of the people that are also in my fantasy world, and then I slowly get disillusion.

[644] There's no escaping it.

[645] And then I watch your movie and I find myself going, no, I still have it for them.

[646] That's still a thing.

[647] Even being on the other side of the curtain, I still can think of those two as beings that are not almost even human.

[648] Here's why I think that is true in their case.

[649] First of all, they were making movies and they were artists in a time period when you were young.

[650] And you were tapping into that young part of you that views what adulthood was like from a 14, 18, 22 -year -old.

[651] point of view.

[652] Second of all, they actually are special.

[653] I think it's what made the documentary possible when I was really thinking about it.

[654] The kids came to me with this offer.

[655] I just trying to figure out how to get out of this work.

[656] I heard you tell the story on Colbert.

[657] It's really good.

[658] He's on the phone with the daughter, and she's pitching him this idea.

[659] She cold called him.

[660] And he's like, I'm so flattered that you thought of me. He's clearly their daughter.

[661] Their daughter.

[662] Yeah, Paul and Joanne's daughter.

[663] And he says, yes.

[664] He's paving the way to know.

[665] I'm trying desperately to say, no. You know, I can say, well, I can say, well, maybe this person to be great.

[666] She's like, well, I kind of think you'd be great.

[667] I'm like, ah, well, that's really nice.

[668] But maybe this person could do a good job.

[669] Well, what about you?

[670] I was like, ah, let me think about it.

[671] And I thought about it.

[672] And I started realizing that part of why they have that mystique for you and for me is they kept growing.

[673] And I think we as people going through our life, we need some role models of like, can it be done?

[674] Can I have a good life?

[675] Can I have fun?

[676] Can I be an ethical citizen?

[677] Can I be a decent husband?

[678] Can I be a decent husband and still a cool guy?

[679] I feel like we're in the thought police of like what's a good person and they somehow managed.

[680] They were badasses in their 20s, cool in their 30s, hip and interesting in their 40s.

[681] Then they evolved into giants.

[682] I thought, wow, wouldn't it be fun to do a portrait of an artist where they don't OD.

[683] You know, if you're doing Marlon Brando, it's going to end up so sad.

[684] You do Monty Clift, it's so sad.

[685] James Dean is so sad.

[686] All this talent, but what's it for?

[687] What's it in service of?

[688] With Paul and Joanne, you give two people in their 70s.

[689] At the end of his life, he's doing at worst peak performances with anything he's done his life.

[690] Color and Money, Verdict, Nobody's Fool.

[691] Vintage Paul Newman.

[692] And then you've got her who's now running her own theater company, developing her own TV shows doing all this phenomenal work and they're still together in love and redoing their vows and they're giving away hundreds of millions of dollars to help other people and they're on the right side of history as part of civil rights well they maintain their passion and hunger what you're seeing is oh somebody did it yeah they didn't let the deconstruction like yeah I got it too man I came here I was full of like oh I want to be a movie actor and you meet all these chumps and you realize everybody's self -centered everybody's a creep they tell half -truths you get really disillusioned, and it's nice to have something to look at where you're like, not everybody falls.

[693] And what I liked about making the dock is it's not like they didn't get hit from the left and hit from the right and hit with an upper cut.

[694] It was work to keep growing up.

[695] It's a daily thing living your life.

[696] When I was first making it, one of the notes I got from somebody was like, why are you spending 15 minutes on W USA and Buffalo Bill?

[697] America rejected those movies the first time around.

[698] Why would they want to see?

[699] I'm like, because they're artists and failure is a part of our lives.

[700] And if you don't tell that story, you don't understand why color of money and the verdict are important.

[701] It's important in context.

[702] And it feels good to see Paul Newman have a meaningful work hard in something he really believes in and fail.

[703] I need to see that because then when I fail, I can pick my ass back up again.

[704] No, it's inspiring.

[705] I remember reading this hatchet piece on Aaron Sorkin that he's a terrible writer.

[706] And I thought, well, thank God.

[707] Someone calls me a terrible writer.

[708] They're calling Aaron Sorkin a terrible writer.

[709] It's so helpful.

[710] It feels really, really good.

[711] Yeah.

[712] And you start to go, that's our job.

[713] Take the heat, baby.

[714] The fuck you, isn't to say fuck you to them.

[715] It's to keep moving.

[716] The game I play with myself when someone says something nasty is to not deny it.

[717] Basically to say, you know, that's partly true.

[718] And then when somebody says, oh, you're brilliant, you can go, that's partly true.

[719] Sure, there's a mona come there.

[720] Well, that's an interesting take on if you're going to believe the good ones.

[721] You've got to believe the bad ones.

[722] It's a version of it, which is that I can half believe them all.

[723] Right.

[724] That's probably the healthiest approach.

[725] My approach has been like, I'm going to reject the good ones so that I can also reject the bad ones.

[726] No, I don't subscribe to that.

[727] I have this theory that confidence is really fragile.

[728] Sports are a great teacher.

[729] You watch these guys are women at a very high level when they're playing, you know, like we've got the Women's World Cup this year.

[730] All these women.

[731] are awesome at soccer.

[732] What's the difference between a great game and an okay game?

[733] Confidence.

[734] What is confidence?

[735] It's experience, first of all, it's like having been there before really helps learning things, and it's believing in yourself.

[736] So I think sometimes when somebody says, Dax, you're awesome, you should hear it.

[737] And, you know, when somebody says you suck, you should hear it.

[738] That's interesting.

[739] You don't got to give it too much weight.

[740] I don't need to be told to hear negative voices because I hear him so loud.

[741] If I'm showing a preview of a movie, I'm working, I'd say with the last movie stars or something, and I screen two episodes for a group of people and talk about them.

[742] Eight people can go, oh, my God, I loved it so much.

[743] And I think, idiot, idiot, idiot, idiot.

[744] And somebody goes, I thought it was pretentious when you did that, and that was really lame.

[745] And I think, there's a genius among us.

[746] Yes.

[747] They see me. And you have to just kind of work through that.

[748] Well, first of all, even having been such a huge fan of Paul, I learned so much about them in this documentary.

[749] I don't know if it ever got back to you, but we have talked about this a lot, 25 times.

[750] This comes up all the time.

[751] I asked David Letterman when I was interviewing, did you watch this?

[752] Is he great in the dock?

[753] Isn't he so beautiful?

[754] Absolutely.

[755] He's Walt Whitman, man. He just moves me. Yeah, he's the greatest.

[756] He nailed us.

[757] He goes, yeah, now that Paul's gone, I can say that Paul was one of my best friends of my life.

[758] And we're like so touched.

[759] I'm like, oh my God, I didn't.

[760] And he goes, no, I'm just fucking with that.

[761] I barely knew him.

[762] He had us.

[763] Like, right?

[764] He had it so bad.

[765] It was great.

[766] I got like emotional that he finally is admitting that they were so close.

[767] But in your end, everything about it I fucking love.

[768] And I learned so much.

[769] And one of the things I think is part of the recipe you're hinting at the failure of the moving forward, why they are a model.

[770] And I think part of the reason it didn't crumble around them is they were never hiding.

[771] The most shocking part of the doc to me is how insanely candid they were throughout the whole ride.

[772] In a way, you do not hear people be candid.

[773] these days.

[774] She's on talk shows saying, I shouldn't have chosen being a mother over my career.

[775] It was hard for me. I don't know if I would have done it again.

[776] I love them.

[777] Whoa!

[778] A woman would be terrified to even say that today.

[779] He's acknowledging he's a drunk.

[780] She's acknowledging he's a drunk.

[781] They're acknowledging infidelity.

[782] They're doing movies in the wake of these personal tragedies.

[783] Like, they weren't hiding.

[784] And I think that's part of their sustainability is there was no fraud to expose.

[785] One of the great assets, if you're lucky enough, to have a long -term intimate relationship, is the other person sandblasts you.

[786] They sand down the narcissism.

[787] If you're constantly dating somebody new, you kind of make yourself up new each time.

[788] Greatest hits for six months.

[789] Yeah, you know, these are my stories.

[790] And then if you can work through that.

[791] You know I fought a tiger, right?

[792] I told you that story.

[793] They your love of each other polished each other.

[794] They couldn't lie.

[795] because the other one was right there.

[796] He didn't think he was the best actor in his own house.

[797] So why when he would be told he's the best actor in the world would he believe it?

[798] And that allowed him to see the other actors who would come on set, who were friends of Joanne or in Joanne's class.

[799] Back to the word humility, it created a natural, authentic humility because he was in love with Joanne Woodward.

[800] And the world didn't give her accolades every time she woke up in the morning.

[801] And he knew she knew more about acting than he did.

[802] And he was always aspiring for her approval.

[803] And I think that's what really helped.

[804] And you want to urge people to date equals or maybe even try to be with someone that's stronger and bigger and more powerful than you because there's a neutralizing force.

[805] I experience it.

[806] Anytime I can whip myself up into I'm so special and I have all these demands on me or I got to go shoot this thing.

[807] My wife's like, yeah, no shit.

[808] I just did one yesterday.

[809] Like big fucking deal.

[810] Get over it.

[811] There's like a neutralizing force.

[812] But I would venture to say that everyone is your equal.

[813] and that what really helps a relationship...

[814] No, hold on.

[815] No. There are rich dudes who have leverage who want a trophy wife.

[816] They're not going to challenge them on anything.

[817] I see a lot of that.

[818] People that are convenient for their lifestyle.

[819] But people who are like that treat everyone around them like they're not an equal.

[820] The guy who wants a trophy wife treats his assistant like shit too and treats the guy who works for him like shit too.

[821] Yeah.

[822] It's a personality type where they don't see anyone as an equal.

[823] I know exactly what you're saying.

[824] When you challenge yourself to have a formidable person, person in your life.

[825] And if you look down on your brother or sister or even worse, your lover, you just handicapped yourself.

[826] And when you create situations and other people who make that easy for you to do that, because they want to be near.

[827] We see it all the time kind of these satellite people around said famous athletes, said famous rich mogul.

[828] There's all these people who gain their self -esteem by being in the orbit of somebody they admire.

[829] Like me and you with Donofrio.

[830] Like, yes, with Donofrio.

[831] That's why we have to, you know, we have to make sure we We don't spend all our time with him.

[832] Yeah, well, let's just satellite him and you have to stare at the beautiful orb.

[833] A couple things.

[834] The family, it's interesting that they instigated it, given how warts and all it is.

[835] And I wonder, did they initially have that idea as an approach, or did you convince them up?

[836] But I know you've said, not to be generic, but there's no light without darkness.

[837] Did you have to push in that direction?

[838] Because I think that's what makes it so brilliant, is that it's all there.

[839] What I basically said to them was, I don't find fairy tales romantic because I don't, relate to them.

[840] I don't understand them.

[841] If I just feel like Paul and Joanne have gold dust around them, it's like, well, good for them.

[842] Lucky them.

[843] God likes them best, I guess.

[844] Yeah.

[845] I thought that the more we told the truth, the more romantic it was, actually.

[846] I agree.

[847] And they bought into it.

[848] There were times that it hurt.

[849] They loved their parents.

[850] But one of the things that's so beautiful, I think, about when I discover, you know, when Paul was working in his memoir, the fact that, you know, he had his best friend interview his ex -wife, his first children's mother, and Zoe Kazan plays that part in the documentary.

[851] And first of all, she's so intelligent.

[852] She's so well -spoken.

[853] She's clearly hurt.

[854] She was a real serious person.

[855] I thought it spoke very well of Paul and Joanne that they wanted her voice, that they were interested in getting that point of view.

[856] I thought it was important for the kids to have their mother be respected and an actual human being.

[857] People were hurt in this and that's called real life.

[858] And then the question is, do you do after there's been hurt and pain?

[859] Is it possible to heal?

[860] I was moved by that.

[861] It was kind of the only way that I could tell it.

[862] One of the things that shocked the kids as they saw all these interviews.

[863] And can I just really quick tell people in the audience, this biography with his participation was being made for five years.

[864] All these recordings happened.

[865] He ultimately burned all these tapes, but all of it had been transcribed.

[866] So you got thousands of pages of transcribed interviews.

[867] It's kind of perfect, Paul Newman.

[868] He was working in this memoir, and late in life, he's like, I don't want to write a book about me. He's like, he was just bored with me. When I first heard they were born, I thought, oh, there's a scandal here.

[869] Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

[870] Well, it turns out of the guy who did, he had his best friend interview a lot of his old friends.

[871] Nannies, everybody.

[872] Everybody.

[873] Sidney LaMette, his agent, his brother, I got volumes of pages because he was going to work on this huge epic memoir, and he interviewed his ex -wife.

[874] John Houston.

[875] I mean, it's incredible.

[876] Tom Cruise, there are all these amazing interviews.

[877] He was like, I want to hear what other.

[878] people remember because it helps me remember.

[879] Then at the end of his life, he was like, you know what, I don't want to write a memoir about me. There's been enough about Paul Newman for one lifetime.

[880] Wow.

[881] But when I started going over them, I realized that there wasn't a scandal.

[882] What moved me was that none of us live in a vacuum.

[883] We all live in the context of our generation.

[884] And that I kind of need to tell all these people's story to understand the world that our hero and heroin are living in.

[885] Yeah.

[886] And, you know, I think it works.

[887] Oh, it's so great.

[888] And what's great is because it's so honest and truthful, it actually paves way for the parts that are magic.

[889] So just first and foremost, I'm watching it and I go, all right, I don't believe in fairy tales.

[890] I've been disillusioned, but somehow this guy's drinking a case of beer every day, and he has a six -pack, and he looks beautiful.

[891] I know that to be not possible.

[892] I got right back in, because I'm like, look how this guy's living, but look at him.

[893] That's not possible.

[894] I know.

[895] You look around you at everyone you know.

[896] It's so frustrating.

[897] He should have been at the gym every day to look like that to have that physique.

[898] His diet had to be perfect.

[899] There's a story that didn't make the duck, which is it.

[900] When he did the racing movie, the film's called Winning.

[901] Joanne's in it.

[902] Anyway, it's a movie where he plays an auto racer.

[903] He loved driving fast anyway, but then he got to actually race with real racers.

[904] And he calls the director up and says, hey, before you finish the movie, like, I want to see the long cut of the movie with all the stuff of me driving.

[905] Of course, yeah, yeah.

[906] And he's like, I want to see the four -hour assembly.

[907] So he comes to the screening room, they project the thing, it's four hours long.

[908] He brings with him a case of beer.

[909] He sits a case of Coors down, and he's drinking, and he's laughing, and he's throwing cans of the screens and cut that shit, get him out of here, and he's laughing.

[910] The movie finishes, and there is a case of empty beer cans, and the director comes down, well, what do you think?

[911] And Paul just looks at him and goes, I think we should go have a drink.

[912] and he looked like that and he shows up for work on time and he's keeping his marriage together not fair I don't understand the Constitution is so incredible Did he ever get sober?

[913] Paul?

[914] Yeah.

[915] Not really.

[916] He made a deal with Joanne that he would give up hard alcohol.

[917] Okay.

[918] If you see the movie he did called Buffalo Bill, he put that in that movie where he's like, I have one drink a night, but it's a goblet.

[919] You know, it's like a four -gallon jug of beer.

[920] We always find workarounds.

[921] Yeah.

[922] The other great thing, and it's kind of an empowering aspect to it, is like, I knew Joanne Woodward was, but I did not know she's the star of the family.

[923] They're in the actor's studio, and Brando's in there, and James Dean's in there, Marilyn and Rose in there.

[924] And she's in there.

[925] And he, or at least I've heard from other people, he feels least competent there.

[926] He doesn't not even sure what some of this stuff is he's doing.

[927] And Brando's everything.

[928] And he has to watch her.

[929] He's like a failed TV star at this point.

[930] And she goes on to star with Brando, like the ultimate alpha of all time.

[931] Of all alphas.

[932] And he's got to just deal with that.

[933] I love there's a picture of him on set.

[934] He's got like a little camera around his neck.

[935] He looks like a fucking geek.

[936] He looks like a tourist.

[937] And there's her like basically, she's undoing Brando's belt and doing it, you know.

[938] And he's just kind of sitting there in the background.

[939] Well, that's amazing.

[940] I mean, that must have been the cruelest moment.

[941] What a thing to deal with as a couple.

[942] Like, you're not where you want to be.

[943] I'm on fire.

[944] I've been offered this thing with the most threatening human being in the world.

[945] And I'm going to go away and do that.

[946] And you're going to be supportive.

[947] And we're going to get through it.

[948] Like, that is a challenge people don't have in their normal relationships.

[949] They don't have that.

[950] Yeah, I'll be making out and undressing Brando for the next four months.

[951] And you're just going to have to deal with that.

[952] And you're just going to have to deal with that.

[953] And we're going to go to the con film.

[954] festival together.

[955] And you're going to have fun.

[956] You can bring your camera.

[957] And you're going to take photos.

[958] But you know, it brings up a really interesting point about humility again, which is that I find myself thinking about like, so why were the Beatles so great?

[959] And this relates to Paul and Joanne.

[960] It's that John Lennon, genius that he was, sang backup on Hey Jude.

[961] A lot of our major stars don't sing back up for anybody.

[962] These guys are two card -carrying geniuses.

[963] And then you George Harrison, the third worst songwriter in the band, who's a whole name songwriter.

[964] These guys are learning how to support another person, and it ingrains in you in natural humility.

[965] Paul had to go to Joanne's set for years.

[966] So when Joanne comes to set of Cool Hand Luke, he knows how she's feeling.

[967] He knows maybe she doesn't want to come that long.

[968] Maybe she needs to leave.

[969] Maybe she needs to do her knitting class or go to dance recital or do her own play.

[970] You firsthand understand what it means to support another person.

[971] You don't think it's somebody's honor to support you.

[972] Yeah, exactly.

[973] You know it's a beat down.

[974] It's hard.

[975] Oh, man. And they were seemingly so ahead of their time, especially in kind of gender roles.

[976] She was so confident.

[977] She was more confident than him.

[978] Definitely.

[979] He regularly credits her for giving him his sexuality.

[980] Isn't it amazing?

[981] He says, Paul Newman, the sex symbol.

[982] That's not me. That's Joanne.

[983] One of the things that hurt me the most is at the end of his life, he's in his late 70s on the Larry King show.

[984] And Larry King says to him, So the sex life can really stay up into old age.

[985] And Paul goes, let's hope.

[986] It sounds like their sex life was a lot of fun.

[987] Yes.

[988] More fun than you might think.

[989] Wow.

[990] It sounded pretty enviable.

[991] So that was the other, I was like, okay, somehow this guy could drink in a way that's not possible.

[992] And also, these two fuck decades into their relationship.

[993] Say, I'm more of a morning man. Who had an affair?

[994] He did some cheating, it seems.

[995] I don't know.

[996] It's kind of alluded to in the dock.

[997] What I tried to do is get our brains out of idle gossip.

[998] They clearly had some very legit challenges.

[999] She moved the kids out of the house.

[1000] He slept in the driveway.

[1001] He came back from some movie where apparently he was behaving atrociously.

[1002] He arrived back to an empty house.

[1003] The furniture was gone.

[1004] and the kids are going.

[1005] And this is not the internet.

[1006] He's no idea where they are.

[1007] You can't call her on a cell phone.

[1008] There's no cell phone.

[1009] He's calling her.

[1010] He's calling mutual friends.

[1011] I think he did call her age.

[1012] So where the hell's Joanne.

[1013] So he finds out where they are.

[1014] He came and knocked on the door.

[1015] He's like, Joanne, let me in.

[1016] She's like, no, you don't live here anymore.

[1017] We live here.

[1018] This is our home.

[1019] You executed yourself from this marriage.

[1020] And he's like, I have nowhere to go.

[1021] She's like, well, that's your problem.

[1022] So he slept in the driveway.

[1023] And the kids are talking through the window, you know?

[1024] It's a circus.

[1025] And then in the morning, she's like, all right, give up drinking and we'll have a conversation.

[1026] And he goes, I don't deal well with ultimatums.

[1027] I love you.

[1028] You love me. This is my house.

[1029] You let me in the door.

[1030] We'll talk about my drinking.

[1031] She's like, no, the drinking is over or we're over.

[1032] And another night goes by.

[1033] In the morning, he knocks on the door.

[1034] He's like, all right, what about heart alcohol?

[1035] They just said a hard alcohol.

[1036] They'll be in the middle.

[1037] He countered the next day.

[1038] She lets them in and they start talking.

[1039] But there's a ton of rumors around infidelity, and there's some factual stuff about it.

[1040] And do you remember the comedian Mort Saul?

[1041] No. Okay, he was a famous, famous comedian.

[1042] Think Lenny Bruce Wild.

[1043] And he was one of Paul's best friends.

[1044] And I interviewed him for the doc.

[1045] It didn't make the cut really close before he died.

[1046] One of the things that I found really touching, I said, well, what do you make about the kids being kind of hurt by some of the infidelity?

[1047] Paul was never unfaithful.

[1048] I was the best friend for 40 years, and I can promise you.

[1049] I was unfaithful with my wife, Paul had a lot of problems with it.

[1050] There's nobody Paul admired more than Joanne, and kids don't know what they're talking about.

[1051] That's a loyal friend.

[1052] You said, thank you.

[1053] You're a good friend.

[1054] I said, I love you, dog.

[1055] I want a best friend like you.

[1056] Yeah.

[1057] I just find it interesting because he respected her, he loved her.

[1058] All those things can be true, and that can still happen.

[1059] It happens all the time.

[1060] We are human beings, and we're flawed, and we go.

[1061] through immense periods of pain and growth.

[1062] And what I found romantic about it is not the betrayal, but the work that went into forgiveness and the depth of the relationship that is born on the other side of that.

[1063] It's what we talked about.

[1064] Failures are to be expected, to be capitalized on, to be accepted.

[1065] That doesn't just mean professionally.

[1066] It's personally, too.

[1067] If you fail yourself, how is it not possible that you will fail people that love you.

[1068] I try to explain that to people who don't understand addicts who like put other people in danger and stuff.

[1069] And I go, well, the first statement they've made is I don't give a fuck about myself.

[1070] I've chosen this thing over myself.

[1071] So naturally everything else falls neatly after that.

[1072] I have this thing I say to my kids all the time.

[1073] The truth is, if you want to have old friends, you have got to learn to forgive.

[1074] People you love are going to disappoint you.

[1075] They're going to disappoint themselves.

[1076] I am going to disappoint myself.

[1077] It's actually easier.

[1078] to not fail if there's a space and room of forgiveness in the room.

[1079] Without that, you're only left with the option of denial.

[1080] Well, that's what I love about the whole A thing of one day at a time.

[1081] It's like, just don't take the whole life.

[1082] Let's just talk about today.

[1083] Because today seems a little manageable.

[1084] And I think great love has forgiveness in it.

[1085] Joanne was a very complicated person too.

[1086] And Joanne is very southern and very circumspect.

[1087] and I don't think we know the whole truth of the whole dynamic I see those Brando movies Also, she admittedly had a very, very large sexual appetite It's what took her away from her first guy She was adventurous It's what they loved about each other Yes, and by the way, I entered my relationship going I'm getting this person who most people are attracted to She's going to be away a lot This is very much an out come, I need to already be thinking about and processing and accepting that if I want this very desirable human, guess what, I'm not going to be the only one that desires her.

[1088] And there's going to be people that make a really good case for it.

[1089] And if I wanted, it comes with that.

[1090] And I'm fine with that.

[1091] That's a way of showing your wife immense respect is to value her desirability.

[1092] And to understand that you are lucky as hell to be her husband.

[1093] And she needs to see you that same way, too.

[1094] Yeah, yeah.

[1095] You know, it needs to be reciprocal, valuing each other's sexuality is valuing it.

[1096] Yeah.

[1097] I meet so many friends that are going through a rough time in their relationship.

[1098] And just so you know, dude, you guys get divorced.

[1099] She's going to be with another guy that you're really jealous of in four and a half seconds, buddy.

[1100] Let me just wait up to that fact.

[1101] She's going to be fine without you.

[1102] And remember that.

[1103] Being with you is a choice that she has to make every day.

[1104] Why should she make that choice?

[1105] We want to make her life better because you're in it.

[1106] And you're certainly not doing that.

[1107] Yeah.

[1108] And so in regards to that, their whole.

[1109] warts and all thing is that 50 years is a long time and you insert the level of difficulty there's a funny story another one that didn't make the doubt because one of the kids was with Joanne they were at the grocery store and there was People magazine and he's right around color of money time he's in his mid -60s he's in the cover People magazine's sexiest man alive and Joanne apparently looks at the cover and says would they leave him alone it's such a burden on him he's in his 60s he's still being objected Let him just act now.

[1110] Hold on me, he doesn't have to sleep with you all.

[1111] You understand what I mean?

[1112] I just thought it was sweet.

[1113] Leave him alone.

[1114] Also, that was the part where you also see the deep massageny that also is present through all this.

[1115] She's so worthy of her own interview, anywhere she would go.

[1116] But she never got through an interview where the interviewer didn't ask her, how do you deal with every woman wanting to sleep with your man?

[1117] Can you imagine being asked that all the time?

[1118] Every single interview.

[1119] They didn't ask him that.

[1120] I might just leave.

[1121] him just for that just because of how other people are behaving.

[1122] It's so annoying.

[1123] And they don't ask him.

[1124] And you know, but that part of it's no surprise to women.

[1125] Like my wife is my partner.

[1126] Every time we go to set, everybody's like, how are the kids?

[1127] Where are the kids?

[1128] I got four kids.

[1129] Nobody ever asked me where they are.

[1130] My wife and I'll be walking down the same red carpet doing the same interview with one after another.

[1131] I can hear out of the corner of my ear.

[1132] All they're asking her about is like where our kids are.

[1133] I know.

[1134] And there is this implicit.

[1135] Shouldn't you be with them?

[1136] Yes.

[1137] Always 24 -7.

[1138] Even if they don't mean it, my wife he hears it, like, hey, I have a babysitter, shoot me. Yes, yes.

[1139] I'm trying to have a career also.

[1140] Ask him who's babysitting.

[1141] He probably doesn't even know.

[1142] I probably don't.

[1143] Pathetic.

[1144] She was just such a rock star, dude.

[1145] The fact that she would go on these talk shows and fucking knit the whole time she was out there.

[1146] She's talking about nuclear disarmament, knit in it, you know?

[1147] This is me. I knit.

[1148] I talk about these political issues you don't want to hear about.

[1149] And then I make some pretty good jokes.

[1150] And then I'm out.

[1151] I'm going to run my dance class.

[1152] I'm going to be artistic director of my theater company and produce some movies.

[1153] You know what?

[1154] I got to interview Scorsese about her.

[1155] And he said, if you look at her in Three Faces of Eve, which was the movie she won the Oscar for in the 50s, amazing performance.

[1156] And then you look at her in the 90s she did Mr. Mrs. Bridge.

[1157] And he's like, what's amazing about watching those two movies is it's the same artist, the same wit, the same joy, the same confidence.

[1158] It's just a more mature version.

[1159] It's like there's this huge, journey and this life in between these two performances.

[1160] But the flame that is Joanne Woodward is the same flame.

[1161] And you even spotted a little joke that she made about an icebox in one movie and a joke that she made about spilling a beer.

[1162] She's like, you see that, that's the same sense of humor.

[1163] It's her signature juz.

[1164] Yeah.

[1165] You had a kind of a profound personal moment like that where you were doing a play.

[1166] No, it was Link Later.

[1167] It wasn't a play.

[1168] It was a movie.

[1169] It was the first sliding doors or before sunrise yeah before son thank you for helping doors so sorry he said what's going on in this taking so i've got this secret i'm playing with from some kind of well -known acting technique and he's like this movie doesn't have a plot and if you are acting it's going to expose that this should have a plot so i'm going to need you to tell me your Ethan's secret that's what you have to play fuck this fake secret and you luckily and i'm not surprised the way you take criticism you use that and it was a bit of a breakthrough and you're like oh my god i interpreted the link later thing is letting yourself into these things that you Ethan you have enough to share that will be interesting and i'll want to follow it and i'll be empathetic i remember julie said a different version of that she said we've got to tell more jokes she's like i think we need to hire a joke writer and rick was like why she's got to be funny he's like i've been rehearsing with you for a month we've been sitting in this room for a month talking, I have never been bored.

[1170] And I'm going to edit together the best hour and a half of our month together.

[1171] And if someone is bored, this is not their movie.

[1172] We don't need to try to be funny.

[1173] I'm not interested in trying to be funny.

[1174] We can be funny.

[1175] If we're funny.

[1176] We're not punching this up with jokes.

[1177] That's not the game we're playing.

[1178] We're not sexing it up with deep thoughts and meaningful movement.

[1179] No, real life is enough.

[1180] And I think that's Link Letter's unique genius.

[1181] It's just that regular life is magic enough.

[1182] Yeah, did you ever read Raymond Carver and some of these short storywriters that were just geniuses at displaying the complexity of real life?

[1183] But vacuum salesmen coming into your home is like the biggest event of your life.

[1184] Exactly.

[1185] You don't need to be an FBI.

[1186] You don't need to be involved in espionage or a helicopter crass for your life to have drama.

[1187] Our lives have drama all the time.

[1188] We feel it in our stomachs.

[1189] Stay tuned for more.

[1190] armchair expert, if you dare.

[1191] In the link later, since we're on that topic, is there a world in which there would be another installment of boyhood?

[1192] The geometry or architecture, as you will, of that movie works because it's 12 years, but it's the same 12 years that...

[1193] If you're an American, your life works in that exact same cycle.

[1194] You go to first grade, second grade, 12th grade, you graduate.

[1195] What Rick kind of figured out is that's actually usually around the time our memory, starts too.

[1196] Five or six, like we start remembering things.

[1197] So while that movie doesn't have a plot, it does have narrative architecture, which is you feel we're working our way to graduating.

[1198] There is a ticking clock, so to speak.

[1199] And so you can't just kind of randomly keep going.

[1200] It would need a different kind of architecture.

[1201] It would be the next 12 years.

[1202] I would make a case that we already made the sequel to Boyhood, and it's called the Before Trilogy, because in a way I play Eller Coltrane, if you watch Boyhood, and then you watch before sunrise, it's kind of like that same character is now 25.

[1203] Uh -huh.

[1204] And then before sunset, he's now like 33.

[1205] And maybe the character's always link later.

[1206] Exactly.

[1207] Yeah, yeah.

[1208] Because I'm, you know, I mean, that's, there's, you're always kind of playing your director, aren't you?

[1209] Yeah, definitely.

[1210] Especially when you're in something that is as personal as those movies are to him.

[1211] Boyhood is his exploration of family and childhood.

[1212] And the before trilogy is his exploration of romantic love.

[1213] He could do another exploration.

[1214] of maturity, grace, wisdom, old age, I don't know, and maybe a different actor will play his surrogate, or maybe it'll be me. I think it'll be you.

[1215] You also both have these crazy parallels, same single parents, Texas.

[1216] We made boyhood in the 12 years we also made before sunset and before midnight in that same chunk of time.

[1217] So Rick and I were working so hard together over that decade.

[1218] Yeah, is that the most, I mean, not to have to rank things, but is that the most special professional relationship of your life?

[1219] Oh, yeah.

[1220] I have a lot of friends that have impacted me creatively.

[1221] But you guys have like a De Niro Scorsese.

[1222] We made like nine movies together.

[1223] It's the thing you dream of as an actor is to meet a filmmaker whose taste is like sympathica with yours.

[1224] Oh, I'd kill to have a director call me every six years and go, we're back.

[1225] This is the thing we're doing.

[1226] It's kind of like playing lead guitar for a rock.

[1227] really great singer -songwriter where I know exactly what he's trying to do.

[1228] I am of service in that band.

[1229] Not every band of mine's service.

[1230] That band, he calls me up and says, I want to do a thing about childhood.

[1231] We can talk about that.

[1232] Well, you know what's funny is you've kind of reverse engineered.

[1233] You have gotten yourself the experience otherwise you wouldn't have had, which is if you've ever done a network television show for a big stretch, it gets more and more effortless.

[1234] You're it.

[1235] Well, that's the 10 ,000 hours thing, too.

[1236] You know, DeNoffrey said the same thing about that cop show he was on, it can become so easy.

[1237] And that's the way, when Jordan's draining, he remember you'd say the basketball hoops sometimes look like a hula hoop?

[1238] Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

[1239] It was like kind of hard to miss?

[1240] Yes, yes, yes.

[1241] It seemed kind of obvious.

[1242] Oh, well, I'm super in Formula One, right?

[1243] And there is a driver, this Max Verstappen.

[1244] And there are all these moments, just from this season, where he's driving.

[1245] He is leading the race.

[1246] He's driving to the limit of this impossible thing.

[1247] And over the radio, he goes, hey, is Ferrari on a two -stop?

[1248] And they go, excuse me?

[1249] I heard the impact guns in the background.

[1250] It sounded like it was two garages over and that's Ferrari.

[1251] Are they going in for a two -stop on the tire change?

[1252] He's doing all this, which you and I couldn't possibly do if we dedicated.

[1253] And he's thinking about other things.

[1254] His mind is in the garage and in Ferrari's strategy and he's picking up things.

[1255] He's watching fucking things on the big jumbotrons as he's on the track.

[1256] He's watching other passes.

[1257] To think that he could do that in his subconscious and his autopilot drive that car like that, let you know, yes, it becomes like that, where he can just exist.

[1258] driving that car that way, and he's actually free to think about anything he wants.

[1259] I love that.

[1260] It's incredible.

[1261] I've seen great actors on stage.

[1262] I've watched Kevin Klein play Falstaff.

[1263] Like, these are huge texts, rhyming couplets.

[1264] I mean, the play was four hours and 15 minutes.

[1265] He's huge speech after huge speech.

[1266] No, thank you.

[1267] And not only is he doing it, he's making people laugh till their pants are wet over words they don't understand.

[1268] Right.

[1269] I mean, that's how funny this guy is.

[1270] And a cell phone one night went off.

[1271] It was really funny.

[1272] I was dead on stage, right?

[1273] And it's the thing that Shakespeare does that torture actors is you're in armor.

[1274] You have to do a giant fight sequence and you have to lie down dead for 15 minutes and not be seen breathing.

[1275] Oh, my God, yeah, yeah.

[1276] You know, because the armor goes, who, up and down.

[1277] Oh, I feel like that makes noises.

[1278] You sit there and kind of go, you're like, shallow breathing.

[1279] And so I'm trying to do this shallow breathing because I'm supposed to be dead.

[1280] And Kevin Klein is this huge speech, like, over my dead body.

[1281] And he's doing it, and he's getting all his laughs.

[1282] And then somebody's cell phone rings.

[1283] and he goes, is that the chimes at midnight that I hear?

[1284] And he launches into an improv iambic pentameter rhyming couplet.

[1285] He's making this shit up and all of a sudden my armor starts like, I can't enjoy it.

[1286] I'm dead guffawing.

[1287] And I'm like, how is he holding all this in his brain, swinging his sword around, doing his armor and basically improv rhyming couplets?

[1288] Do you do what Jay -Z does?

[1289] Yeah, that's what he's doing.

[1290] He's freestyle.

[1291] right there.

[1292] But in old English.

[1293] No, it's impossible.

[1294] It was fun to watch decades of Newman's work.

[1295] Joanne's work, too, obviously, but because I was a kid and loved Paul's movies so much.

[1296] His movies...

[1297] But we're boys, do you?

[1298] But also, the history of movies is not kind.

[1299] You know, like, Joanne did a lot of movies that, because they're female -driven, because of misogyny, because of the way.

[1300] They wouldn't get greenlit.

[1301] They wouldn't get seen.

[1302] And they weren't preserved well, and they weren't hit movies.

[1303] And marketed.

[1304] And marketed.

[1305] And Paul, one of the things that he excelled at was team building.

[1306] It's very obvious, whether you look at Newman's own, whether you look at his racing team, whether you look at his acting career.

[1307] He understood people and what a good team is and how to build a team that works.

[1308] I was fascinated.

[1309] I talked to one of his stage managers.

[1310] He was obsessed with what the runtime of the play was every night.

[1311] Like if it was too fast, no, no, no, no. And if it's too long, no, no, no, no, no. It's got to be two hours and 11 minutes.

[1312] He liked it at 30 seconds, like he was obsessed about what the runtime of it was.

[1313] The specifics of the way that his brain worked, you can watch the evolution of his.

[1314] It gets so easy by the time he's doing the verdict.

[1315] Yeah, verdict is doing nothing.

[1316] He's asleep, and yet it's amazing.

[1317] And it's hypnotizing.

[1318] And then when it's time to strike, he strikes hard and fast.

[1319] He knows when you don't have to play.

[1320] It's like sometimes you watch Messi playing soccer, and I guess he gave up.

[1321] He's just walking back.

[1322] And you're like, oh, no, he's like playing awesome.

[1323] He's walking down and fucking them all.

[1324] Then all of a sudden he turns on the heat and he scored two goals.

[1325] And he thought, wait, I thought he was injured.

[1326] Yeah, he's like rope -a -doping.

[1327] No. He's playing chess and they're all playing checkers.

[1328] Yeah.

[1329] Oh, it's so fun to watch excellence.

[1330] Which is why this doc is so fantastic.

[1331] I'm so glad you came in and talk about it because I'm telling you, it's come up so much and made me buy back into this whole thing.

[1332] And I have to believe in the dream.

[1333] Yes, I enjoy it.

[1334] He got to believe it's possible to be a hero.

[1335] It was like, oh, that's right.

[1336] There's that magic that drove me and was such a fuel source and made me passionate.

[1337] And I'm going to allow myself.

[1338] Life is more fun when you have those people.

[1339] Especially if they're legit.

[1340] And that's why it was important to show, I didn't want to make them seem awesome and then have it come out later.

[1341] You know, he didn't talk about that.

[1342] Right.

[1343] So we're going to talk about it all and they're still badass.

[1344] Yes.

[1345] Don't worry about it.

[1346] And you got help from some incredible people.

[1347] I sure did.

[1348] Such a fun list of people.

[1349] Billy Crude up, Steve's on.

[1350] I'm so obsessed with, never met him, but so obsessed with him.

[1351] He's one of my oldest friends.

[1352] Is he?

[1353] Oh, he's genius.

[1354] Him and out of sight.

[1355] Oh, my God.

[1356] That was the first time the country saw him be brilliant.

[1357] I mean.

[1358] That movie is phenomenal.

[1359] That is one of the best movies.

[1360] I love it.

[1361] I can watch that movie right this second.

[1362] Same.

[1363] I know.

[1364] It's so fun.

[1365] So sexy that movie, too.

[1366] Oh, I know.

[1367] We were just talking about that amazing sequence when they're having dinner and the snows falling behind behind them at the Renaissance Center in downtown Detroit, and it's cutting back and forth to them in the bedroom, taking their clothes off and then back to the floor.

[1368] It's just a magic of that thing, huh?

[1369] That was like when Clooney figured out who he was.

[1370] Yes.

[1371] That's when his inner truth shine, too.

[1372] He's like, yeah, he was good and all that.

[1373] But all of a sudden, that movie, he's George Clooney.

[1374] He's fucking George Clooney, you're right.

[1375] He does Paul for us, you know, in the dark.

[1376] Sally Field, who also my number one of all time.

[1377] This is she brilliant, I know.

[1378] I always say if I had a time machine, I would go straight back to the set of Hooper and I'd do everything I could to woo her away from Bert.

[1379] I mean, what a lady.

[1380] Spiritual, hysterical, smoking hot, funny.

[1381] Super unjudgmental.

[1382] Oh, she's like your best friend.

[1383] She's kind of secretly crazy hot.

[1384] Yes, her bonds in fucking Hooper.

[1385] Hooper and Cannonball Run.

[1386] Oh, Smoking the Bandit.

[1387] That's the one she's really just, froggy.

[1388] Crushing.

[1389] Laura Linney, George Clooney, Josh Hamilton.

[1390] Vincent Donofrio perfectly cast as John Houston.

[1391] Paul Lumen was, he should be president, some man of significant stature.

[1392] Most people in this town come back covered in honeies.

[1393] They just arrived from the hive.

[1394] Not Paul.

[1395] Paul is a man of integrity.

[1396] Oh, my God.

[1397] There's a part I had to cut because there's so many rabbit holes.

[1398] Apparently, John Houston and Paul, there's a bear in Judge Roy Bean, like a real bear and everything.

[1399] And that animal trainer also had a lion.

[1400] And Paul and John Houston would have lunch, served drinks with the lion.

[1401] in their trailer.

[1402] So when studio executives had come to give notes, they would have to walk in and there'd be a lion in their trailer.

[1403] No, no, no. And Paul and John Houston thought this was hysterical.

[1404] Oh, my God.

[1405] My bravery stops at animals.

[1406] Especially those big cats.

[1407] Oh, yeah.

[1408] I worked with that Bart the bear.

[1409] Have you ever worked with Bart?

[1410] I have worked with Bart the bear.

[1411] Bart has a much better career than all of us, so it doesn't shock me. Bart was in White Fang.

[1412] Oh, perfect.

[1413] So yeah, I'm working with Bart the Bear.

[1414] or maybe you had the experience.

[1415] You meet Doug, this very special trainer of Bart the Bear.

[1416] And you're being explained like, okay, so here's the thing.

[1417] Don't look Bart in the eyes.

[1418] Try not to be afraid around Bark because it makes Bart nervous.

[1419] And then see this little cable here that's three inches off the ground?

[1420] That's electrified.

[1421] He knows not to go over that cable.

[1422] And so you'll be standing here and then there'll be the cable before the bear.

[1423] You start going like, so let me get this straight.

[1424] Bart the Bear's going to respect this three inch fucking electrical cable that he can step over.

[1425] That's what's between us.

[1426] And then my very first scene with.

[1427] him is he's behind me. These two guys in front of me know he's behind me. They start telling me, turn around, turn around, turn around.

[1428] I turn around.

[1429] First scene with Bart the Bear, look, I'm dead in the eyes.

[1430] Don't do it.

[1431] Scream as loud as you can and run away.

[1432] And don't worry that fucking electrical line is right.

[1433] He won't chase you.

[1434] Yeah.

[1435] I hope he weren't menstruating because apparently that was the other thing they warned you about.

[1436] Can I tell you my part to bear story?

[1437] Because this is a highlight of my life.

[1438] I'm in Alaska.

[1439] Bart's supposed to be chasing me. And they're like, okay, here's what we're going to do.

[1440] The camera's going to be on the back of this pickup truck, and we're going to drive, and you're going to run, like, right behind the camera, and you're going to look at us, and we'll see Bart running behind you.

[1441] And I'm like, why is Bart not going to catch me?

[1442] Exactly.

[1443] Or run 38 miles an hour.

[1444] He's not going to catch you.

[1445] What we're doing is we're hanging half a deer above my head.

[1446] Okay?

[1447] So in case you trip and fall, we're just going to throw the deer.

[1448] Oh, my.

[1449] That's the contingency plan of something tastier.

[1450] What if he decides to get me first off?

[1451] Exactly.

[1452] He loves venison.

[1453] No way.

[1454] Right.

[1455] So I do my take, and I got this hunk of deer above my head, and I'm running.

[1456] And Bart is so big, and he's just me, that I feel the earth shake when he's behind me. And I'm running, in my mind, I'm like, Indiana Jones.

[1457] I'm 18, right, but I'm like, and I'm running.

[1458] This shot is going to be like history in the making, and I look so tough.

[1459] And everybody's like, they go, we got it, we got it, cut, cut, cut.

[1460] I'm like, yes, yes, yes.

[1461] And I'm like, can I see playback?

[1462] I look at playback.

[1463] I look like, I look like.

[1464] I'm shitting myself.

[1465] I mean, my arms are flailing about.

[1466] My legs are spasmatic.

[1467] So your first time running ever?

[1468] I look as terrified as I was, but I do not look cool.

[1469] There's nothing cool about it.

[1470] The bear looks cool.

[1471] I look like an 18 -year -old kid is about to wet up.

[1472] And did you give it another go and try to butcher it up?

[1473] No, no, I would rather not do it again, definitely.

[1474] Yeah, holy cool.

[1475] It was like, we got it.

[1476] It is really funny, again, talk about.

[1477] the illusion and disillusionment of the whole process is like that was my very first studio movie and I'm just proceeding as if well it's a movie you can't get hurt you tell yourself like you know we're falling over waterfalls people are getting hurt but we're not and I'm like oh yeah well they're the stunt guys they're supposed to get hurt but wait we're going over it too why won't we get hurt you start realizing like no this is a bunch of humans trying to control chaos while recording it on a camera that's what's actually happening here well we're so lucky to have had this job yeah we sure are oh my god I mean how many people can say they've been chased by a bear You and I have been chased by the same bear.

[1478] That's kind of awesome.

[1479] It really is.

[1480] It's like finding it we had the same high school sweetheart.

[1481] Even less unique than that.

[1482] Running away from bears is what makes them want to eat.

[1483] Their instinct takes over.

[1484] Yeah.

[1485] They might be fine if you're just still, but running instigates them wanting to eat.

[1486] That's what I thought.

[1487] That's why I didn't want to do it again.

[1488] I will say this because it's worth saying, Doug, I've never met a human like Doug.

[1489] His eyes, do you remember his eyes?

[1490] Forget him.

[1491] They're like the deepest, calmest, light blue.

[1492] And he would walk right up to Bart and just stare him in the eyes and Bart would calm down.

[1493] This guy actually has a fucking superpower.

[1494] We had this animal trainer, Clint Rao and Doug, who did White Fang.

[1495] We had wolves and bears.

[1496] And they are two of the most powerful, mystical, awesome men I've ever met my life.

[1497] I actually left those like, someday I'd love to make a movie about them because it was something almost Francis of a sissy about them.

[1498] Their love of nature and their intimacy with these animals.

[1499] And I felt like these guys were like the Robert De Niro of animal trainers.

[1500] I remember they were willing to do anything.

[1501] Because there was a scene in Wifeng where the puppy wolf has to lose its mother wolf.

[1502] And Clint was like, I know, Gracia, we should get the puppies asleep on the mom.

[1503] And then when he wakes up, the puppy, the mom is frozen and he realizes that it's a disease.

[1504] And the director's like, how can we get that?

[1505] Well, we should stay up all night.

[1506] I'll make a fake mom and we'll let the puppy sleep.

[1507] there and then you just start rolling around 4 a .m. We'll keep on it.

[1508] We'll get the puppy really waking up and it'll really be it.

[1509] There's the dedication.

[1510] And the director was like, 4 a .m. I don't want to get out of that 4 a .m., you've got to be kidding me. Also, how many mags are we going to go through?

[1511] How many mags are we going to go through?

[1512] We got the shot.

[1513] It's awesome.

[1514] Brad Pitt ended up making a doc about Doug.

[1515] No, that makes sense to me. There is one.

[1516] I think after Legends of the Fall.

[1517] He did one of the, yeah, he worked with him.

[1518] He fell in love with Doug just like we did.

[1519] And then he, I think he went and made a talk about it.

[1520] And if people love Bart the bear, they should see the original movie The Bear, because that stars Bart the Bear.

[1521] Yeah.

[1522] Barts, again, his credits are far beyond.

[1523] He's the whole Newman of Archeryon.

[1524] He's the poor human of bears.

[1525] Ethan, so much fun, second time around.

[1526] I hope there's a third.

[1527] Everyone should check out the last movie stars.

[1528] It's on Max.

[1529] It's tremendous.

[1530] You will thank me when you watch it.

[1531] It's so wonderful.

[1532] I'm so glad you came in to talk about it.

[1533] Appreciate you guys having me. We'll do a three -peed.

[1534] We'll cover something.

[1535] We have more step to cover.

[1536] We're developing a second link -later bond.

[1537] Good.

[1538] We'll do it.

[1539] Okay, perfect.

[1540] Stay tuned for the fast check so you can hear all the facts that were wrong.

[1541] Ethan Hawke.

[1542] Ethan Hawke was very, this is the second time we have had him, but the first time was on live Avenue.

[1543] Which we said in the intro.

[1544] Yeah, I'm saying it again.

[1545] You should, because I was about to say.

[1546] the same thing again as well, which is I think he's so unique and original.

[1547] Yeah.

[1548] He felt to me so different this time.

[1549] Yeah.

[1550] It almost felt like that wasn't even connected to the first one.

[1551] Yeah.

[1552] Well, you know, it's a very heightened experience to be a guest on the live show.

[1553] So you're not like, it's not like he was a fan of the shit.

[1554] He doesn't know what the fuck he's stepping into other than.

[1555] Yeah.

[1556] Than Offrey has said this will work for you.

[1557] Did it as a favor really to.

[1558] Vincent, yes.

[1559] It was a third party favor.

[1560] Yeah, and it's a lot of big personalities on a stage, heightened environment.

[1561] He'll be doing art till he's dead.

[1562] Yeah, it feels here.

[1563] I'll be on a fishing boat, you know, angling for bass I don't like to touch or eat.

[1564] You will?

[1565] At some point.

[1566] Oh.

[1567] That's what you're kind of supposed to do is angle for bass.

[1568] But you are not someone who does what you're supposed to do.

[1569] I know, I know.

[1570] You hate supposed to do.

[1571] I know.

[1572] Have you ever been fishing?

[1573] Well, yeah, I don't want to fish when you were a kid.

[1574] You didn't want to touch the fish.

[1575] Well, you saw that picture, a gorgeous 22 -inch pike, which was a kid I thought was enormous.

[1576] Yeah.

[1577] Turns out that's a small pike.

[1578] Oh.

[1579] But certainly the biggest fish I ever saw.

[1580] 22 inches.

[1581] That is big.

[1582] It's a big fish.

[1583] And I did not want to touch it.

[1584] I have a newspaper under my, in between the fish and my hands.

[1585] But as an adult, have you?

[1586] No, I've avoided and I keep getting invited.

[1587] And always by people I really love and respect.

[1588] Like Kimmel's varying to fishing.

[1589] And then my idol Tom Hanson's.

[1590] Life revolves around fishing.

[1591] Right.

[1592] And both those guys, I kind of, you know, aspire to be.

[1593] So it is, it seems like I should be doing it.

[1594] But I can't get past the fact that although they don't even catch those fish.

[1595] I mean, they catch them and then they release them.

[1596] So it's not like they're eating a ton of it either.

[1597] But I have a hard time getting over the fact that I don't eat fish.

[1598] Right.

[1599] I don't eat fish, which is my favorite dish.

[1600] But without no money, it's still a wish.

[1601] I know, Eric, being rock out.

[1602] It'll always come up.

[1603] The thing is, if you catch a fish and then you release it, no, no, no, no more sayings.

[1604] If you catch a fish and you release it, doesn't it bleed out?

[1605] Because didn't it you hook it?

[1606] No, it doesn't really bleed.

[1607] It just gets hooked into that weird, plasticky mouth they have.

[1608] Right.

[1609] And you take it out and there's no evidence.

[1610] Yeah, I mean, what occasionally happens, plug your ear.

[1611] ears, animal lovers, is they swallow the hook?

[1612] And then that's rough because then you're pulling some stuff out.

[1613] Oh.

[1614] That's so bad.

[1615] That's so mean.

[1616] But let's try to make up a new sandwich is give a man a fish, he eats for a day, teach him to fish, he'll eat for a life.

[1617] Teach him to catch and release.

[1618] He'll starve that day.

[1619] Whoa.

[1620] Yeah.

[1621] Okay, I need to sit with that for a minute and really understand it.

[1622] Let it settle in.

[1623] Okay.

[1624] Well, then we'll have to ask if we ever have Jimmy back on, which I hope we do.

[1625] Yeah, I think we're going to assume.

[1626] I want to understand the psychology of a fisherman because I do not get it.

[1627] It's been explaining me and I understand it.

[1628] Okay, but should we wait for Jimmy to say or do you want to try?

[1629] Well, he might do a better job.

[1630] But until then, in the interim, so as it's been explained to me, and it makes a lot of sense, it is a very good technique in forcing you to stay in the moment, as is my motorcycle track days, which I've explained ad nauseum on here.

[1631] So people know how I feel about that.

[1632] It's like, you have to concentrate on the turn ahead of you or you'll crash.

[1633] That makes sense.

[1634] When they go out on these raft and they're floating, right, and they're fly fishing, and they're constantly trying to set that lure in an area that they think is going to have fish in it.

[1635] So it's just an endless concentration of this exact moment.

[1636] You can't be, your mind can't wander to anything else.

[1637] you're hyper -focused on getting this little lure to some certain place, but the current's moving.

[1638] So it's always moving, so you're always adjusting.

[1639] Okay.

[1640] And so I think it's just an exercise in extreme presence, being present.

[1641] That's interesting because that's counterintuitive.

[1642] To me, I thought fishing was just like, you have it in there and you're just waiting for a fish.

[1643] That's aversion.

[1644] And the people who I'm friends with who are super inefficient, they're not into that.

[1645] Like where you fish with a bobber and you sit in the boat and you drink beer.

[1646] And then most of the time you miss it that it's bobbing.

[1647] Then everybody's like, oh, think you're up.

[1648] Seems like the opposite of being present.

[1649] I think that's like, that's more an excuse to pound old Milwaukee's and tell stories.

[1650] Okay.

[1651] But I don't want to disparage that kind of.

[1652] No, no, it's great.

[1653] Weekly was an avid fisher, the bobber kind.

[1654] Get out on the boat, cast it out, have the bobber.

[1655] Yeah.

[1656] Or I guess he also would cast and then reel.

[1657] I don't know.

[1658] I don't know enough about fishing to say what he was doing.

[1659] But I do know that when he got sober, his love for fishing kind of dropped off a little bit.

[1660] So maybe he should switch to fly fishing, which is very active and very concentrating.

[1661] I suppose in some way it is probably your upper deltoids.

[1662] Oh, sure.

[1663] I guess you're holding it up.

[1664] Yeah.

[1665] Oh, God.

[1666] Are you ever in a situation where you have to keep your hands up high for an extended period of time?

[1667] Yes, this is very common for women with hair.

[1668] Ah, great.

[1669] So all women.

[1670] Yep.

[1671] Women with hair.

[1672] Not all, but many, if you're doing some sort of updo or if you're straightening or curling.

[1673] Yes.

[1674] Or blow drying is the worst.

[1675] Because you got a little weight.

[1676] Exactly.

[1677] So I don't even know when I have to do it, but I do know occasionally I have to have my hands up high.

[1678] And I am so embarrassed about the apparent level of conditioning I have.

[1679] Like I can lift heavy things.

[1680] But you asked me to get my hands above my head for more than like two minutes.

[1681] It hurts.

[1682] You know another embarrassing thing?

[1683] I can't stand for very long either.

[1684] Wait, what?

[1685] No. That's not true.

[1686] I really can squat a lot and I can deadlift a lot.

[1687] But if I'm stuck somewhere where I can't sit down for like a couple hours, I feel like I've ran a marathon, just standing.

[1688] That's shameful.

[1689] Because then I'll walk into Walmart and I'll see the person that's greeting.

[1690] And I'm like, man, they're standing for eight hours.

[1691] At least, like, now moving, I can walk indefinitely.

[1692] But I'm saying just stationary standing.

[1693] I'll occasionally go to like some kind of a mixer.

[1694] Oh.

[1695] Cocktail -y thing and I have to wear dress shoes.

[1696] And after like 90 minutes, I'm like, I need to find a chair or staff.

[1697] Interesting.

[1698] It's so embarrassing.

[1699] I mean, 90 minutes is a long time.

[1700] It's not like it's 10 minutes.

[1701] Right.

[1702] Do you ever find yourself having a hard?

[1703] I wonder if it's height related at all.

[1704] When I worked at SoulCycle, you weren't supposed to sit.

[1705] And you're behind the counter checking people in and stuff.

[1706] There's no, well, it's like there was these little stools, but you're kind of supposed to not sit in those.

[1707] Okay.

[1708] Would you lean on them?

[1709] Sometimes I would sit in them.

[1710] You know, because it's active and like you're supposed to be up and moving.

[1711] Our heart rate should always be above 140, even at work.

[1712] So, Ann, you're never really supposed to have nothing to do.

[1713] You're supposed to then do the shoes or go do clean this or do the lockers or something.

[1714] Stay busy.

[1715] Yeah, stay busy.

[1716] And I would be really tired at the end of those shifts.

[1717] Like, my body would be tired.

[1718] Low back?

[1719] All of it.

[1720] Because what I have, it's worse than you is the leverage issue.

[1721] Sure.

[1722] But what I have better than you is I don't have front weight.

[1723] Yeah, you don't.

[1724] Right?

[1725] So it might be a good comp, you and I standing for a long time.

[1726] How could we test this?

[1727] Well, we could figure it.

[1728] If we had someone great at math, they would be able to ease.

[1729] talk about the leverage my head creates versus the leverage your head creates, and then, you know, the leverage your other stuff creates.

[1730] They could figure it out mathematically.

[1731] Well, what part hurts on you?

[1732] Also lower back?

[1733] Or just feet?

[1734] Lower back, for sure.

[1735] Yeah.

[1736] Like, I want to bend over and touch my toes a lot.

[1737] In fact, I'll do that at cocktail parties.

[1738] Oh, my gosh.

[1739] I'll have to start stretching.

[1740] There's normally a place to sit at cocktail parties.

[1741] No, there isn't.

[1742] Really?

[1743] Well.

[1744] I don't know.

[1745] Obviously, some of them have that.

[1746] But, you know, a lot of them are you, like, you stand around a little table.

[1747] Oh, yeah.

[1748] And I'll be leaning on the table, like, excessively.

[1749] I'm like, God, you look lazy.

[1750] Or I try to find a wall to lean against.

[1751] Oh, wow.

[1752] I'm going to keep my eyes.

[1753] You should.

[1754] It's so, you'll be so embarrassed for me. Wow.

[1755] I'm like, isn't this guy supposed to be fit?

[1756] Isn't that it's kind of his thing?

[1757] Okay.

[1758] Well, now we learned that embarrassing thing.

[1759] It's fun to learn embarrassing things about each other.

[1760] It is.

[1761] You know what I'm finding right now?

[1762] So much of what I talk about is film and television, but I can't because as a member of the union, I can't promote shows that I'm currently watching.

[1763] Well, we can.

[1764] No, I think that's the rule is like we're not supposed to promote struck work, right?

[1765] I thought it was what you were in, but maybe not.

[1766] No, I think you're supposed to.

[1767] This is all very confusing.

[1768] I've been thinking this through, of course, I'm from like the epicenter of union activity, Detroit, Michigan.

[1769] So I've seen a bunch of strikes.

[1770] I've lived through a lot of them.

[1771] Yeah, there's these like, people don't stop driving their GM car to the strike.

[1772] Right.

[1773] Because they already own it, right?

[1774] I guess they would encourage people not to buy a car.

[1775] I mean, really what the UAW strikes were way more about a burr.

[1776] Burt.

[1777] Which is also with the picketing for me is a little, I don't know if conceptually it's right.

[1778] So in Michigan, you strike and you pick it and you form a line in front of the company.

[1779] so scab laborers cannot enter the property and take your job, in theory, right?

[1780] There's no scab actors walking into any studios or networks that the picketing line would function to stop.

[1781] I know.

[1782] So then it's more about to bring attention to the cause, but I also find that that's getting a time.

[1783] I don't know that the picketing is what gets the attention as much as just everyone involved is a huge entity who's got a huge voice.

[1784] So it's not like it's any secret.

[1785] It's being written about in the New York Times, and it's got plenty of coverage.

[1786] But I guess now in this day, like, there's so many pictures of people out striking, and that does get some attention.

[1787] It's like, Jeremy Allen White, is that his name?

[1788] Yeah, he's out there.

[1789] Yeah, yeah, at the time of this recording.

[1790] So I, yes, I picketed, but I'm not going to post a picture myself.

[1791] Yeah, I picketed, but I'm not going to post a picture of myself doing it.

[1792] Why?

[1793] Well, to me, I got to say it feels a little bit like, look at me. Like, it feels a little virtue signal me. I will say this.

[1794] When we first started, when SAG joined, people were posting pictures and stuff.

[1795] Yeah.

[1796] And we did have a conversation about how many actors are going to go pick it once, get their picture, leave, and never do it again.

[1797] But I don't know.

[1798] I think people are out.

[1799] They're doing it.

[1800] Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[1801] It just, for me, posting a picture of myself.

[1802] Well, maybe I'll post it.

[1803] Okay.

[1804] If I'm in someone's picture, that's great.

[1805] Because there are people policing other people who are on vacation.

[1806] It happened to me. Like when I was in Martha's Vineyard, people were shaming me. You should be picketing.

[1807] But you already had your trip.

[1808] You were on your trip when it happened.

[1809] Yeah, also, I'm going to take trips on strike.

[1810] I'm going to not take sag work.

[1811] That's what I'm going to do.

[1812] And I'm not going to promote shows that I'm currently watching and love.

[1813] So anyways, you drive your GM car to the picket when you're in UAW worker.

[1814] You don't walk.

[1815] Right.

[1816] So in that same vein, like, are we saying that actors are not supposed to be consuming struck content right now?

[1817] Like, how deep does it go?

[1818] Are you supposed to be at home not?

[1819] Are you not supposed to go to the movies?

[1820] Presumably you're not supposed to go to the movies.

[1821] Well, that's what I'm saying.

[1822] Everyone's going to Barbie.

[1823] So now you've got these two causes that are now positioned against the movies.

[1824] other which is as a feminist you should go support Barbie yeah but then that's that's giving money to the studio that you're striking against I know I don't understand this is why life is very complicated think you should be watching old DVDs that you have right then not streaming it wait I mean that would be the actual you know if you wanted to take this to its logical conclusion yeah that's what you should do is you don't want to give them any numbers you want them to suffer you want them to have to come around to your position or you can watch the tennis show like I am.

[1825] You could watch non -union content, but then again, A, it's helping the streamer, and B, and in a dream world, the union doesn't want any non -union work.

[1826] They would almost want docs to fall under some, you know, so it's like, okay, so you want to incentivize the competitor, which is non -union productions, whatever.

[1827] It's all very complicated.

[1828] It's very complicated.

[1829] We're going to try to get someone in here to help us.

[1830] Mostly what I'm annoyed with is people that are policing other people's Instagram.

[1831] And, yeah, I talked to you another.

[1832] actor who a guest that had been on not too long ago and they said that they they were in Italy but they wouldn't post any pictures because they were afraid people were going to be like why are you in Italy when there's you're supposed to be picketing yeah that wasn't unfounded I had people in my comment section yelling at me when are you going to support the union because I was on vacation and I love that that that's presumably another union member instead of policing you know the main shareholders of the company they're policing fellow actors.

[1833] It really reminds me of communism where everyone turned on each other and read it each other out.

[1834] I mean, again, I do think I will not to upset you.

[1835] At the risk of upsetting you.

[1836] Sometimes I think you take the comments too seriously.

[1837] For sure.

[1838] Oh, that's obvious.

[1839] I admit to that.

[1840] It's just like, okay.

[1841] Yeah.

[1842] Like five people who are angry, but.

[1843] But those five people do also the tail waggs the dog and it becomes stories in the L .A. and shit.

[1844] Like, that's an unfortunate reality of our media landscape is that these five bozos do get stories into the public eye.

[1845] And then there's some perception that that's consensus.

[1846] That is true.

[1847] I shouldn't care, but I do.

[1848] And I acknowledge that.

[1849] I just, for your sake, I just don't want you to.

[1850] I just figured something out.

[1851] I don't know why it took me this long to figure this out, but it has already immediately corrected 90 % of the shit I hate on Instagram.

[1852] I just hit the switches.

[1853] You can't comment on my page unless you follow me. I also churned our armchair feed into that as well oh they're like if you don't follow us you don't listen to our show you have no reason to they even see it they hear there's a guest on it makes some headline they decide to go to our page and let it rip well see so this is interesting though because yesterday so we posted for synced yeah we ask in the video and in the episode we say put in the comments, whether you're L &D or MNR.

[1854] Yeah.

[1855] And people were really doing it.

[1856] And at one point, Liz was like, it's saying people can't comment or something.

[1857] Uh -huh.

[1858] And so.

[1859] Unless they follow arm, Cher, I actually.

[1860] So we thought it was because we said boobs.

[1861] Oh, no, no, no, no. It was because I switched it like three days ago.

[1862] But does that, that's interesting then because that like sort of cuts off some engagement, which I guess is like supposed to, I don't, I don't.

[1863] know a numb about it.

[1864] But if you're a fan of the show and you're going to the page.

[1865] I think the hope, though, is to grow the fans.

[1866] So you wouldn't want.

[1867] Yeah, but I don't think allowing people to comment is how you necessarily, I don't think they comment and then they follow because I look at all that, let me say this, 100 % of the time that I block people who are seeing very hateful things towards you or I, I go, they don't follow us.

[1868] They don't follow that account.

[1869] Yeah.

[1870] They're there because we represent something.

[1871] And they're going to shit talk any chance they can us because whatever they think we are liberal or whatever the thing is.

[1872] Yeah.

[1873] But I figured this out because the sleeping in the airport thing got an insane amount of thing, right?

[1874] It became like news stories, places.

[1875] So there were all of these comments like fake news.

[1876] There were vacancies, which is like, A, there weren't.

[1877] The flight crew couldn't get a hotel.

[1878] They had to go to Rhode Island.

[1879] Yeah.

[1880] The comments would be like either fake news or you mean there wasn't one up.

[1881] to your standards.

[1882] So it's like they're saying that we're super ritsy and nothing's good enough for us, yet we're also sleeping on the floor of the airport.

[1883] So it's like, which way do you want it?

[1884] Yeah.

[1885] So and lo and behold, I saw that 100 % of those people didn't follow me. They saw it in the news and wanted to come say I'm a liberal liar.

[1886] So then I was like, oh my God, I can just change it to you who have to follow me. Yeah.

[1887] And it's literally overnight, you know, where I'm, where I'm blocking like a hundred a day on that post of people just hate tweeting me, turning into Twitter, really.

[1888] Yeah.

[1889] Now zero.

[1890] That's a good solve, but I wish you just wouldn't read them.

[1891] I have to.

[1892] Do you know some of the stuff I, I don't even want to tell you some of the stuff I read on there that I block.

[1893] Well, you don't, I don't want you to tell me because I don't want to know.

[1894] Exactly.

[1895] And I wish that you also didn't know.

[1896] We have to know.

[1897] We can't let our feed, which is a place for armcharies to engage each other, become people calling you names or saying terrible things.

[1898] And then having the arm cherries have to defend you or I and then getting into fights on the page.

[1899] Like, those people just aren't welcome.

[1900] If you're coming to say you hate us, you're not welcome to do that.

[1901] No, I get that.

[1902] I get that rule.

[1903] And it has to be, it totally has to be policed or it just turns into a big cesspool.

[1904] I think what lacks engagement is you go there to say something, you just see like 35 fights on there.

[1905] That would put me off to anything.

[1906] Yeah.

[1907] It's like, do you want to host a fight or do you want to host something different?

[1908] I don't want to host a fight.

[1909] I don't want to host anything.

[1910] I want, I want, I want.

[1911] Well, I do.

[1912] I want to host our community.

[1913] I want our community who actually listen to the show and follow it to be able to go there and thank a guest who just broke through them.

[1914] For me, it's for the guest, too.

[1915] For one of these guests who share something that's really vulnerable, and then they get to hear how many women, Minka's episode, Anna's episode, for those people who walk away a little scared that people are going to think one thing, and they can get to see visually, 600 people say, oh, my God, thank you for saying that out loud.

[1916] That's important to me for the guest and for the people who want to also join in and identify.

[1917] And it's not a place for you to come, say, one of us is a spoiled, entitled, rich.

[1918] you know, whatever.

[1919] Yeah.

[1920] That's not what I'm hosting.

[1921] And we get to choose what we host.

[1922] Yeah, that's true.

[1923] And I think we have a responsibility.

[1924] Like, we acknowledge what's bad about the internet.

[1925] So we have this rare power that this little segment of it, we have some say.

[1926] Agree.

[1927] I agree.

[1928] I see your point.

[1929] I just feel like it has an impact personally that's not good.

[1930] For me. Yeah.

[1931] Agreed.

[1932] And so for me, if I'm picking.

[1933] people who I don't know getting in fights versus your mood, I pick people getting in fights.

[1934] See, I don't think I can pick my sensitivity over my business.

[1935] But that, yeah, I don't find that piece to be our business, really.

[1936] Like the people, the comments on the internet to me don't feel.

[1937] On the internet, they're none of my business.

[1938] On my page, they're my business.

[1939] It's my page.

[1940] I can choose to allow comments or no comments.

[1941] Right.

[1942] And if I'm going to choose to allow comments and I can decide whether I want hateful, mean -spirited people to be engaging good intention, nice people that all of a sudden I feel like they have to defend us.

[1943] Yeah, I don't want anyone to feel like they have to defend us.

[1944] It's like people saying really hateful stuff and then other people coming to our defense and then seven.

[1945] And now they're ensnared in this piece of shit.

[1946] I can just get rid of the piece of shit.

[1947] Like if you're going to come in and say something hateful and mean, you just can't be here.

[1948] It's so easy for me. I can block you.

[1949] And it is my business and your business and Rob's business.

[1950] It's our business.

[1951] And so I actually think I can't let my little sensitivities force me to put my head in the sand and ignore the business.

[1952] Okay.

[1953] All right.

[1954] I do think if you read them, you'd have a little slightly different opinion.

[1955] No, I don't, I know what's out there.

[1956] And that's specifically why I don't think it's healthy for you or I to ever.

[1957] look at them personally.

[1958] I really believe that.

[1959] I agree.

[1960] But it doesn't get done unless I do it.

[1961] I mean, it's blocked two people from the sync feed yesterday from the sync post.

[1962] Yeah.

[1963] I, yeah, I don't know.

[1964] I mean.

[1965] I just want to be clear, I'm not blocking anyone that like disagrees.

[1966] Like, like, let's say, I know.

[1967] Like I think that, you know, I said I think Bob Eiger, who creates two billion dollars in value probably deserves a chunk of that more than the shareholders do.

[1968] That's my opinion.

[1969] Whatever.

[1970] I heard a lot of, so many people disagree with that, right?

[1971] And that's fine.

[1972] I don't mind that at all.

[1973] But if you start name -calling and then saying, I'm something, I'm a piece of shit because I have that opinion.

[1974] Yeah, that's great.

[1975] So I'm not blocking people who are disagree with a position I take.

[1976] Yeah.

[1977] I'm blocking people who are antagonistic and mean, spirit it.

[1978] Yeah.

[1979] I just don't think you can come out of that unscathed.

[1980] I don't.

[1981] And I also don't think you can, I mean, if we're talking about the business, really, I I think you can't come out of that without potentially adapting the business.

[1982] And I don't want that.

[1983] I don't want it to be this weird cycle where we know stuff that some people say.

[1984] And so we're adjusting the way we interact or the way we interview or the way I don't.

[1985] Well, I don't do that.

[1986] Okay.

[1987] I think that's obvious.

[1988] I'm still being very myself.

[1989] I'm still asking very provocative questions about the union's position and the strike.

[1990] and I'm going to, you know, invite that, like, I'm not altering who I am on here.

[1991] I don't think you are either, but I'm just saying I don't know if it's possible to not let some of those things infiltrate in a way that has an impact we don't know, more than just our mood.

[1992] I just, I mean, that's what we've talked about, it was a hundred people on here of, like, just don't read them, you know.

[1993] I wish I had the luxury to not read them.

[1994] I really do.

[1995] I would love to not.

[1996] I asked everyone in the, the group to change this.

[1997] You said, let's hire someone else.

[1998] Which for, for this reason, for this exact reason, so that me and you and anyone who might get called out shouldn't have to see it.

[1999] I think it should be someone third party who likes us, obviously, so who knows what to delete, but who is not going to get emotionally affected by it, where any of us are and do.

[2000] Yeah, for sure.

[2001] I do get it, but I felt like it wasn't getting done and no one was doing it.

[2002] So I'm doing it.

[2003] Okay.

[2004] So ding, ding, ding to what Rob said about the DVDs.

[2005] Vidyets, you mentioned Vidyets.

[2006] It was a DVD store, VHS store.

[2007] It's back.

[2008] It's back?

[2009] Mm -hmm.

[2010] It was in Santa Monica.

[2011] Yep.

[2012] It's in Eagle Rock now.

[2013] Oh, wow.

[2014] It's a huge location, too.

[2015] Mm -hmm.

[2016] Oh, really?

[2017] They do screenings of movies.

[2018] Ooh.

[2019] It's cool.

[2020] It's a nonprofit.

[2021] it.

[2022] A bunch of cool people.

[2023] I think like Paul Shears involved, like a bunch of cool people were involved in getting it back up and running.

[2024] And yeah, they relaunched it and it's cool.

[2025] It's worth checking out.

[2026] My only question there is, do you still rent DVDs there?

[2027] And do people have DVD players?

[2028] I have one.

[2029] Okay.

[2030] Is it hooked up?

[2031] Yeah.

[2032] It is.

[2033] I don't really use it.

[2034] But if They're screeners.

[2035] That's, I think, really why I have it.

[2036] Oh, right, right.

[2037] So they still do rentals and there's a catalog?

[2038] Yeah, there is.

[2039] I think, I don't know if that's more like kitchy, but that's cool.

[2040] I think it's more for, like, finding rare stuff on DVD that you can't.

[2041] Because there's one of those in Chicago facets that was a, like, theater for screening.

[2042] But then they also had all these, like, obscure movies that you can't find anywhere anymore.

[2043] Yeah, that makes sense.

[2044] I've searched for a couple things in all the ways I can.

[2045] know how to search for things on my Apple TV.

[2046] Yeah.

[2047] And can't find it because no one's licensing it currently because there's, they see no value in it, which they're right, probably.

[2048] Yeah.

[2049] You know, some movie that might get streamed twice a year.

[2050] They're not going to pay for that.

[2051] Yeah.

[2052] So, yeah, it does fall through the cracks, a lot of these movies you might want to see.

[2053] Yeah.

[2054] You can imagine, like, Valley Girl.

[2055] I talk about Valley Girl all the time.

[2056] You do.

[2057] Probably no one's hosting Valley Girl right now.

[2058] Yeah.

[2059] You know?

[2060] I don't know if Brothers Justice is seeable in your.

[2061] No, you can, you can buy it on iTunes.

[2062] Oh, that's nice.

[2063] I wonder who gets that money.

[2064] I purchased it.

[2065] I know you did.

[2066] I own it on iTunes.

[2067] They're doing a screening of Valley Girl at the Alamo on August 12th.

[2068] Oh, wow.

[2069] Look at that.

[2070] Ding, ding, ding.

[2071] Anyhow.

[2072] So, that's Vidiates.

[2073] I want to go.

[2074] Me too.

[2075] I want to check it out now.

[2076] And I want to go to a screening of something.

[2077] Me too.

[2078] They're doing past lives.

[2079] So good.

[2080] What's past lives?

[2081] I'm not to say.

[2082] Well, no, actually, is that an independent movie?

[2083] It is A24, though.

[2084] Which A24 has been cleared.

[2085] Yeah.

[2086] Oh, they haven't.

[2087] Yeah, they've reached an agreement.

[2088] There's certain indies that are fine because they're happy to.

[2089] They're abiding by all the.

[2090] Yes.

[2091] The request.

[2092] Can't talk about movies or TV, but can't talk about Dantanas, I think.

[2093] Oh, of course.

[2094] Yes.

[2095] That's not struck.

[2096] No. Right.

[2097] And although one of the persons I'm going to say.

[2098] say is on strike.

[2099] You're allowed to say that.

[2100] Are you allowed to say you saw an actor?

[2101] Yeah.

[2102] So for people who don't know, Dan Tanas is this very legendary steakhouse.

[2103] Institution.

[2104] Institution in West Hollywood on Santa Monica Boulevard.

[2105] And Nate and I went, because we have a first Wednesday of every month commitment to go to dinner together because we just don't see each other if we don't have this in our calendars.

[2106] Yeah.

[2107] And we have not, I haven't been to Dan Tannas in probably 15 years.

[2108] It's exactly as I remember it.

[2109] Oh, little background.

[2110] So Sinatra would go there.

[2111] Don Rickles would go there.

[2112] Nate told a great story.

[2113] Maybe it's apocryphal, but he told me a great story about Don Rickles.

[2114] Apparently, Don Rickles asked his friend Frank Sinatra.

[2115] He said, I'm going on a date to Dan Tanas.

[2116] And Sinatra was in there every night.

[2117] And he said, would you come over and say hi to me?

[2118] You know, I would look like a hero in front of this gal.

[2119] I'm going on a date with.

[2120] I know it's a pain in the ass request, but like, would you just stop by and say hi when you come in?

[2121] Yeah.

[2122] And so Frank said, yeah, okay.

[2123] So the next night, Rickles is there on his date at a table.

[2124] And Frank Sinatra comes in and he walks over to Rickles and he's like, Don, how are you doing?

[2125] Good to see you.

[2126] And then goes, who the fuck are you?

[2127] Get out of here.

[2128] I'm on a date.

[2129] Oh, my God.

[2130] That's great.

[2131] Anyways, we're there.

[2132] The menu is fantastic.

[2133] It's got.

[2134] Like, it's all old school.

[2135] So let me just tell you, the Veal Melanase is called the George Clooney.

[2136] Most of the menu items have a celebrity's name next to them, which is very fun, right?

[2137] I realized that in the booth next to us was James Woods.

[2138] Tell people who he is if they don't know.

[2139] Well, Casino, he was the bad boyfriend to Sharon Stone and Casino.

[2140] He, you know, I had an epic career in the 80s.

[2141] Needless to say, he is in the booth next to us.

[2142] This is pretty perfect because the whole place feels like time travel.

[2143] Growback.

[2144] I can't really look at him.

[2145] Nate can't position perfectly.

[2146] And he's like, God, his skin looks great and his hair looks beautiful.

[2147] He's really holding up, you know, he's going on it.

[2148] And then we get to the end of the menu because we're like people watching and we're going through the menu.

[2149] There's a James Woods steak.

[2150] Wow.

[2151] Yeah.

[2152] Did he have it?

[2153] Exactly.

[2154] Oh, my God.

[2155] No, did he?

[2156] Like, you can't tell the difference between these different menu items that arrive on people's tables.

[2157] And also, I didn't want to turn around and look at them.

[2158] So I just glanced them once and then I never really, you know, every now and then I would take a peek.

[2159] But, yeah, I was wondering if they name your favorite item after you, are you obliged then to always order that?

[2160] Or do you look terrible because you don't even order your own menu item?

[2161] And then do you love going there with friends and ordering?

[2162] Like if I went with you and, I don't know, a few other people to a restaurant and I ordered the Dax Shepherd.

[2163] I'd feel kind of stupid.

[2164] Yeah.

[2165] But also, but I loved it for James Woods.

[2166] Right.

[2167] It's like it's embarrassing to order it with your name, but also then you're stuck because what if you want to try new items?

[2168] Yes.

[2169] Like if Clooney goes in there and orders the Jerry Weintraub, you know, what?

[2170] What happens to that?

[2171] Because that's a nice nod.

[2172] What if they went together?

[2173] Because they knew each other from Ocean's 11.

[2174] They certainly ate there together.

[2175] Yeah.

[2176] And what if they ordered each other's?

[2177] That would be cute.

[2178] I mean, it's like if at Houston's, the French dip was the Dack Shepard and the chicken sandwich was the Monica Padman.

[2179] I would feel a little stressed because I do not always get the chicken sandwich, even though that's my thing.

[2180] Yeah, you get grilled cheese on Sundays.

[2181] Sometimes I get grilled cheese.

[2182] What else do you get?

[2183] Sometimes I get sushi.

[2184] Uh -huh.

[2185] I throw that on top of whatever else I'm getting.

[2186] Sometimes I only get sushi and a salad.

[2187] Do you ever get the ribs?

[2188] No. Never.

[2189] That's not for you.

[2190] It's not in my repertoire.

[2191] Yeah.

[2192] But you like them when you sample them?

[2193] I do.

[2194] Yeah, they're tasty.

[2195] Anyways, we had so much fun, Nate and I. Yeah.

[2196] And we were just looky -loying all over the craning our necks and stuff to look at people.

[2197] Oh, look at this gentleman.

[2198] You know, it was, we had so much fun.

[2199] Also, this.

[2200] staff.

[2201] The guy that helped us was like, hey guys, how are we doing?

[2202] You know, bald had the dinner jacket on.

[2203] He felt like we were time traveling.

[2204] It was so much fun.

[2205] But I did start thinking, like, I wonder if the staff has had a conversation at all, which is like, guys, no one has a steak under 65 on this menu.

[2206] Clooney's the young.

[2207] Clooney's like a spring chicken on that menu.

[2208] By the way, he should have the spring chicken.

[2209] They should have the spring chicken and it should be Clooney.

[2210] Well, no, it should be Timothy Shalame.

[2211] That would be perfect.

[2212] Or it doesn't even have to be men, too.

[2213] Let's get Zendaya in there.

[2214] Let's get her one.

[2215] Let's get some women.

[2216] Let's get it younger.

[2217] But whatever.

[2218] It did occur to me. I wonder if they've had a conversation like, we're going to have to stop calling the Debney Coleman, which is up there.

[2219] Do you see that 9 to 5?

[2220] Do you know Debney Coleman?

[2221] Great comedic character actor in the 80s.

[2222] He's still got a stake there.

[2223] Okay.

[2224] How many steaks are there?

[2225] There's a lot.

[2226] And I'm saying steak, but sometimes I mean veal cutlets.

[2227] Sometimes they mean right.

[2228] Just a menu item.

[2229] Yeah, there's a menu item.

[2230] There's a menu item.

[2231] And it's limited real estate, as we said.

[2232] So I wonder if they thought, we got to get some younger names on there.

[2233] And it does, maybe I could make a run for the lamb chops.

[2234] Okay.

[2235] And you and Nate are going to do weekly, monthly dinners?

[2236] How's this work?

[2237] This is our third time.

[2238] Monthly, right?

[2239] Yeah.

[2240] First Wednesday of very.

[2241] every month.

[2242] That's so cute.

[2243] I really like it.

[2244] It's fun to catch up.

[2245] And it's very hard for us to catch up because he works a lot.

[2246] He's got a family.

[2247] Yeah, so we do a lot of catch up about our summers.

[2248] We had a really wonderful conversation.

[2249] We talked a lot about fear and having a hard time accepting when things are good, waiting for the other shoe to drop, that kind of impending, do you trust?

[2250] Do you deserve?

[2251] Are you worthy?

[2252] Do you trust?

[2253] Or is the shoe going to drop?

[2254] I'm struggling with a lot of the shoes going to drop lately, as I've told you.

[2255] But Nate has wrestled with it too, but it was really lovely.

[2256] Yeah.

[2257] Lots of laps and then lots of sincere bro moments.

[2258] Okay.

[2259] This reminds me of two things.

[2260] One is, so there's a podcast I really like, not nobody's listening.

[2261] This is a different podcast that I really, really like.

[2262] So much so that I bought into their Patreon.

[2263] Oh, wow.

[2264] Like I, you know.

[2265] You're funding them.

[2266] Yeah.

[2267] Well, ever, you know, patron.

[2268] Yeah, you're donating.

[2269] I pay monthly to this podcast because that's how they make money.

[2270] Yeah.

[2271] The podcast is not, it doesn't come out weekly.

[2272] It's just like kind of whenever they feel like it.

[2273] Okay.

[2274] And it used, I think it used to be weekly.

[2275] They were on like a good schedule.

[2276] And now it's just kind of like very willy -nilly.

[2277] Uh -huh.

[2278] And I have this weird, like, justice around it.

[2279] This is so weird.

[2280] Uh -huh.

[2281] But I...

[2282] You want to stop donating?

[2283] Well, I...

[2284] Or you want it pro -rated.

[2285] No, no. It's not really about me so much as in general, are you allowed to do that?

[2286] Are you allowed to have people pay and then not deliver weekly?

[2287] It feels a bit unethical.

[2288] Well, the whole Patreon system is interesting, just on its own.

[2289] It's an interesting model.

[2290] Yeah.

[2291] Like, I'm not going to charge.

[2292] No one has to pay.

[2293] But if you want to donate, you can donate.

[2294] So just even the notion that it's donate as opposed to subscribe or pay.

[2295] Right.

[2296] Frames it as it's almost charitable.

[2297] Yeah, I think it is.

[2298] I mean, it's like if they don't have ads, which a lot don't.

[2299] But if you're donating to the ACLU and you find out, they're not going to take any cases for a couple months.

[2300] You might go, well, then what am I donating for you to do?

[2301] Well, right.

[2302] I mean, the whole point of Patreon is because you love the podcast.

[2303] You want to support it.

[2304] Yeah.

[2305] And I feel like how can you take people's money monthly and then not deliver any products?

[2306] Right.

[2307] Will they go a whole month?

[2308] Yeah.

[2309] Oh, my God.

[2310] I mean, and okay, I will say they do provide.

[2311] some extra content on Patreon.

[2312] So it is, if you donate, you get that.

[2313] But it's not an episode.

[2314] Yeah.

[2315] Yeah, yeah.

[2316] I mean, a lot of places will use it as that of like get it early or get bonus content that you, other people don't have access to.

[2317] Right, which I get.

[2318] And that's why you pay, you know, it's like I'm happy to pay for the bonus content, but I'm also paying to support the show.

[2319] And then there is no show.

[2320] Yeah.

[2321] It's just tricky.

[2322] I don't know.

[2323] I don't even know really where I fall.

[2324] I just think, like...

[2325] It's bad business model to say, pay this, to get this, and then not do it.

[2326] And they are doing it, I guess, because they are doing the bonus.

[2327] So they are giving stuff, but I want the podcast.

[2328] That's the whole point.

[2329] But the podcast is free, right?

[2330] Otherwise?

[2331] Yeah, but I want them to get paid for the podcast.

[2332] Like, I want this because I like it.

[2333] But I think what you're paying for is probably the bonus content, since it's free to listen to the podcast otherwise.

[2334] Well, no, I, I, in theory.

[2335] She's saying even if there wasn't a bonus podcast, she would ethically feel like she wants them to make money for this endeavor.

[2336] Exactly.

[2337] There's, um, and I want to make a steel man argument for Patreon, I have to acknowledge one of the premises, which is lovely, which is like, we want it to be free for everybody.

[2338] Mm -hmm.

[2339] So if other people will donate who have the means to do so, it'll give it to all these other people for free.

[2340] That's really nice.

[2341] Yeah, I'm not judgmental of Patreon.

[2342] I'm asking for the podcasters, is it ethical?

[2343] To accept Patreon and not deliver product.

[2344] Yeah.

[2345] Or not deliver episodes because I guess, I guess they are delivering the extra bonus content.

[2346] Those are still coming in.

[2347] Yeah, but they're not episodes.

[2348] It's like, you know, people will do like.

[2349] Q &As and like.

[2350] Anywho, I just been thinking about that.

[2351] Like what's ethical.

[2352] And are you on, do you have to donate every month or is that on like an all?

[2353] I think I donated for the year.

[2354] Okay.

[2355] I think the way she sells it, though, is that, like, for five bucks, you get reader support.

[2356] Like, the packages that you're buying for Patreon.

[2357] Yeah.

[2358] She's excluding, like, the episode as a piece of it.

[2359] Well, I know, you're not understanding what I'm doing.

[2360] I know that.

[2361] I know that this is completely separate, right?

[2362] Like, they're not saying.

[2363] You're not in it for the bonus.

[2364] You're not donating money to them because you want bonus material.

[2365] You want episodes.

[2366] And I think that's what a lot of people.

[2367] who donate to Patreon do.

[2368] It's like, I like this podcast, so I want to support it.

[2369] Yeah.

[2370] And this is the way to do that so that they can keep making episodes.

[2371] Yeah.

[2372] And then in addition, you get this bonus content.

[2373] Great.

[2374] But that's not the purpose of donating.

[2375] For I think most.

[2376] Yeah.

[2377] Yeah.

[2378] And I guess I don't know.

[2379] Maybe most people, I don't know.

[2380] Maybe that's not the case.

[2381] I think that's her ethical probably reasoning for why she doesn't feel obligated to release content on there.

[2382] She's giving you the bonus stuff, which she promised.

[2383] That's what I mean.

[2384] Yeah, we get that stuff, but that's not what I'm saying.

[2385] Is that what you want?

[2386] Yeah, I just like want the episodes every week.

[2387] Maybe they're on strike.

[2388] Nope.

[2389] Anyway, it's a great podcast.

[2390] I don't care, but of course I got a little like, what's the word, like tempestuous.

[2391] That doesn't mean you have a temper?

[2392] It means like a little bit that, like a little angsty.

[2393] Bristled?

[2394] Yeah.

[2395] Tempetuous?

[2396] Turbulent or conflicting emotion.

[2397] Yeah.

[2398] Oh, wonderful.

[2399] Because I was like, I'm going to stop supporting.

[2400] Until they put out new episodes.

[2401] That would be fine.

[2402] That maybe they'd get the message.

[2403] I know.

[2404] But then I thought, what am I doing?

[2405] Of course I am not going to do that.

[2406] Want them to have two months off paid.

[2407] Just, well, not that.

[2408] It's just like, I'm not going to take my money out of that pot.

[2409] Right.

[2410] I can afford it luckily.

[2411] So why not support people?

[2412] Yeah.

[2413] How long would they have?

[2414] have to go without an episode before you'd pull the plug.

[2415] So we're at six weeks in your...

[2416] I think I'm going to keep doing it forever.

[2417] Okay.

[2418] It's a lifetime support.

[2419] Yeah.

[2420] Yeah, that's the truth.

[2421] But I want a new episode.

[2422] Yeah.

[2423] That's what you really want.

[2424] You pay through the nose for that.

[2425] I know.

[2426] I like it.

[2427] It's a good show.

[2428] It's a really good one.

[2429] Okay, so there's that check.

[2430] And there was another thing I wanted to talk about, service, which is ding, ding, ding to Dan Tanas.

[2431] It's related to Dan Tana's?

[2432] Well, service.

[2433] Oh, not service to others.

[2434] No. Actual wait staff.

[2435] Exactly.

[2436] The service industry.

[2437] Jess, obviously, that's his livelihood and his expertise.

[2438] So he knows so much about service.

[2439] He has a whole TikTok on it, Ace of Service.

[2440] Okay.

[2441] So when I'm with him.

[2442] It makes you hyper aware of...

[2443] Yes, like he can't not notice every little thing.

[2444] So now that's infiltrated.

[2445] Europe.

[2446] His head would explode.

[2447] Service is just night and day different.

[2448] I'm not saying one's better than the other, but it is so different.

[2449] And they're almost in total violation of every principle that Houston's believes in.

[2450] Yeah.

[2451] Yes.

[2452] It's not fast.

[2453] They're not filling your drink.

[2454] They don't bring you the check in under an hour.

[2455] It's just the opposite.

[2456] They're not trying to turn the table.

[2457] They're not incentivized to do so.

[2458] Exactly.

[2459] Yes.

[2460] Okay.

[2461] But we were recently at a bar.

[2462] Okay.

[2463] Ana and I arrive.

[2464] Mm -hmm.

[2465] We order two drinks.

[2466] Okay.

[2467] Apple martinis.

[2468] Not apple.

[2469] Is that a thing?

[2470] Sex in the City, right?

[2471] Isn't that what they drank on Sex and the City?

[2472] Apple Martini?

[2473] I don't think there's such a thing.

[2474] Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah.

[2475] Is there?

[2476] Yeah, for sure.

[2477] And they drank a lot of Apple martini.

[2478] There you go.

[2479] That does sound right.

[2480] But what is it?

[2481] Apple martini.

[2482] It's got a little splash of apple liqueur in there, like sour apple, I think.

[2483] Sour Apple Puckersnaps.

[2484] Sour apple fucker schnaps.

[2485] Wow.

[2486] Okay.

[2487] Anyway, no, wasn't that.

[2488] Well, you should try that next time.

[2489] No, I think that's amazing.

[2490] Why?

[2491] Too kitty?

[2492] Yeah.

[2493] Oh, okay.

[2494] Two martinis.

[2495] Not apples.

[2496] Oh, it was martinis.

[2497] I was on the right path.

[2498] You were.

[2499] Order two martinis.

[2500] Then the bartender says, hey, I'm leaving.

[2501] So can we close out?

[2502] Mm -hmm.

[2503] Sure.

[2504] It's a little weird because we just got there.

[2505] right and we ordered one thing right but he wants his he wants she or he wants his or her tip yeah he wants his tip so i get that of course i get that so you know we i close out really quick is it possible they have to like structurally at the job they have like a period they have a till they've got a count they got all this shit it's possible that they have to end it is very possible okay it is it is And I've noticed this at other places, too.

[2506] This has happened multiple places.

[2507] But I've never noticed this in any other city.

[2508] Like, for some reason, I've only noticed it here.

[2509] Okay.

[2510] And it is always a bit jarring as a patron because you feel like, oh, it's like over.

[2511] I got to start over.

[2512] I don't know.

[2513] It does throw you with that.

[2514] It feels like you're about to leave because you sign a check and then you leave.

[2515] Yes, yes.

[2516] In your head, it does something leave.

[2517] Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

[2518] Anyway, and so in this particular case, yes, close out.

[2519] Pavlovian.

[2520] Uh -huh, Pavlovian.

[2521] There it is.

[2522] And then he's ended up staying.

[2523] He was there.

[2524] Oh, he decided to stay.

[2525] For a lot longer.

[2526] Working or hanging?

[2527] Kind of working.

[2528] And it was really confusing.

[2529] That led to a new discussion of, is that a lot?

[2530] Like, would that happen at Houston's?

[2531] Well, definitely not.

[2532] Because Jess arrived and you asked him.

[2533] Yeah.

[2534] Jess was there and also there were other things that.

[2535] He didn't, he didn't, but he wanted to.

[2536] Yes, of course.

[2537] And there were other things that were going on that were causing some.

[2538] I'm surprised he goes out.

[2539] It's hard for him.

[2540] Yeah, it is.

[2541] It is hard for him.

[2542] Normally when I'm with him and this is happening, I always say, just, like, stop.

[2543] Like, I want him to stop doing that.

[2544] Yeah.

[2545] And I would say blanketly to him, not everyone has the objective that you have of like, I want to give perfect service.

[2546] That's fine to not even have that objective.

[2547] It's fine.

[2548] Defined by who.

[2549] Like, so they might go like, just be fucking chill.

[2550] Like, you want your shit.

[2551] Here's where you get your shit.

[2552] I don't have to act a certain way.

[2553] I don't have to talk to you a certain way.

[2554] You know, it might not be their goal at all.

[2555] But also, nobody doesn't like having good service.

[2556] Sure.

[2557] Nobody leaves in as like, I wish I had worse service.

[2558] True.

[2559] Like, you notice good service and you do feel it.

[2560] think.

[2561] Anywho.

[2562] So, so the closing out, I would just wonder, can you say, no, I don't want to?

[2563] Probably.

[2564] And then that's bad, because then they don't get the tip.

[2565] So of course.

[2566] No, you can go like, oh, I don't want to.

[2567] Let me give you a tip.

[2568] And you throw them 10 bucks cash.

[2569] Oh.

[2570] Okay.

[2571] Yeah.

[2572] I think that would be probably that everyone would be most happy.

[2573] All right.

[2574] Maybe I'll try it.

[2575] Unless, though, I don't know, maybe their system, he's got to type in, 2306, his employee number, then order the drinks in the system.

[2576] Yeah.

[2577] And now he's got outstanding drinks that weren't paid for.

[2578] Now a new bartender takes over, and they write 2309 in there and order two more drinks.

[2579] Maybe their system doesn't combine those two.

[2580] And they have to put in their number to order drinks so that it can be tracked.

[2581] I don't know.

[2582] That'd be crazy if they had to close out every party one their shifts done, though.

[2583] Right?

[2584] Like, their shifts are dependent on the bill.

[2585] Every time I see a server using the like squirrel system, whatever, I see them go over there and I see them type in their number to get the computer going.

[2586] Right.

[2587] Right.

[2588] So it keeps their bills separate from blah, blah, blah.

[2589] Everyone else is, I don't know.

[2590] I think it's a tip thing.

[2591] A tip thing of like you could probably transfer it to another server.

[2592] Okay.

[2593] I'm sure the system would allow that if they're using any sort of new one.

[2594] If you throw them a $20 bill and then I guess they got to transfer it to 2309, they have a lot of employees over 2000.

[2595] 309 in my scenario.

[2596] If someone's employing ever, it's 23 -09.

[2597] Or he didn't really do much to deserve a tip at that point, too, if it was right when you got there.

[2598] This is a bigger question.

[2599] Or the martini's delicious?

[2600] Yeah.

[2601] Okay.

[2602] So maybe you get to...

[2603] Of course, I'm never not tipping.

[2604] Yeah, I'm not saying don't tip, but for the to be that he doesn't want someone else who's going to actually tend to you for an hour and a half to get his tip for the three minutes.

[2605] It's also a little, not that it matters because everything's percentages and stuff, but it is a little weird to like tip twice.

[2606] You've tipped one person, then later at the end, because you're going to get more stuff with a new person, then you have a new bill with new tips.

[2607] It'd be great if you have three or four waiters per meal.

[2608] So you ordered your salad from one, then tip them out.

[2609] Then you got an advertiser from another tip.

[2610] And they don't share tips.

[2611] And then the dessert waiter comes over.

[2612] I guess that's the benefit of pooling tips.

[2613] That's probably why.

[2614] I'm going to start a restaurant and have course.

[2615] Waiters.

[2616] You have a different waiter for every course.

[2617] Hi, I'm your appetizer waiter.

[2618] Would you guys like to put in any orders?

[2619] And then there'd be interfighting.

[2620] Sure.

[2621] Because dessert.

[2622] Yeah, not everyone gets dessert.

[2623] Not everyone gets appetizers.

[2624] Everyone want that entree position.

[2625] That's a good.

[2626] It's good.

[2627] Getting the good.

[2628] Gittin's good.

[2629] Anywho, it just was interesting.

[2630] I feel like, I guess I'm thinking about ethics a lot.

[2631] It felt a little bit unethical.

[2632] Getting what you paid for, you're thinking about.

[2633] Well, it just felt weird.

[2634] It was like, I just got, we just sat down.

[2635] We've been here for four minutes.

[2636] Yeah, I'm going to close you out now.

[2637] Could you settle up?

[2638] Part of the tip is you being intended to while you drink it.

[2639] Oh, I'm just going to make a counter argument.

[2640] I'm not saying I have any position.

[2641] I don't agree or disagree with anything.

[2642] If you go to a cash bar, you go, give me two beers.

[2643] They give me two.

[2644] That's $12.

[2645] You pay immediately.

[2646] You pay every round of drinks in a lot of scenarios.

[2647] And every time you throw them two bucks or whatever, it's a, it's, you can open up a tab at a bar, but you can also just go up and order your drinks and pay for them every time, which is very standard.

[2648] I've done that way more than I've ever opened up tabs places, certainly when I drank.

[2649] I didn't have a lot of money.

[2650] But tabs isn't even really about, it's more about the convenience.

[2651] It's like, keep this open until we're done for the night.

[2652] It's not really, you know.

[2653] Oh, yeah, I see why you would do it.

[2654] But also, it's very, also very normal to just.

[2655] Just go order drinks at a bar, pay at that moment, and then come back in if you want to order more.

[2656] And then each time you're tipping, I always did.

[2657] Yeah.

[2658] So that's also standard.

[2659] Yeah.

[2660] So he was treating at like a busy bar at a concert venue, but you were at a tiny little intimate bar with very few customers.

[2661] At a table.

[2662] Yeah.

[2663] We were sitting at the bar, to be fair.

[2664] When you sit at the bar, now that's something.

[2665] You think that's different.

[2666] Yeah, I do.

[2667] I do.

[2668] I'm imagining, like, I walk up.

[2669] I order two things.

[2670] things.

[2671] I'm standing.

[2672] I'm getting a little tired.

[2673] My back hurts.

[2674] Yeah, I need a stretch.

[2675] You can have a standing for 90 minutes.

[2676] Do some toe touches.

[2677] Yeah, I do a couple quick toe touches.

[2678] Throw the guy a fiverer.

[2679] Throw the gala sixer.

[2680] No, you're sitting.

[2681] Yeah.

[2682] Anyway, interesting.

[2683] Interesting.

[2684] Okay, just a couple more facts.

[2685] They're all about Bart the bear.

[2686] Oh, okay.

[2687] Great.

[2688] I wonder if you're going to point out something that I don't ever actually say when I talk about Bart the bear.

[2689] I wonder if you uncovered this in your research.

[2690] I don't.

[2691] The bear wasn't the same as his Bart the bear.

[2692] Oh.

[2693] The whole point.

[2694] What?

[2695] I don't think.

[2696] So there have been a couple barts that Doug has trained.

[2697] And we had Bart two or three.

[2698] Oh, no. And some of the things I think he might have referenced, it might have been Bart one.

[2699] Oh, no. Is that what you uncovered?

[2700] No. But like the whole thing is that you guys work with the same bear.

[2701] And maybe we did, but maybe we didn't.

[2702] I want to read his film.

[2703] credits that I see.

[2704] So this must be one.

[2705] Win Walker, clan of the cave bear, the bear, the great outdoors, lost in the barons, giant of thunder mountain, the great American West, white fang.

[2706] That's his.

[2707] On Deadly Ground, Walking Thunder, Red River, Yellowstone, Legends of the Fall.

[2708] Yeah.

[2709] Yeah.

[2710] The Edge.

[2711] That's where Brad fell in love with him.

[2712] That's right.

[2713] The Edge meet the Then he has TV credits, the life in times of Grizzly Adams, the gambler, down the long hills, lifestyles of the rich and famous, young writers, lonesome dove, dead man's walk, McKenna, and the Academy Awards, 1998.

[2714] Okay.

[2715] Wow, he was at the Academy Awards.

[2716] He died in 2000.

[2717] Yeah, in Walk's Bart, too, which is my Bart. He had a, he died of cancer.

[2718] Okay.

[2719] Was he a smoker?

[2720] They might have had him smoking these rolls.

[2721] We drank all that coffee.

[2722] That's my bar.

[2723] But that bar probably also drank a lot of coffee in donuts.

[2724] You think only your bar ate donuts?

[2725] Well, he was specifically drinking coffee because he was working nights.

[2726] I hope I made that clear.

[2727] They're dureenial.

[2728] They're not nocturnal.

[2729] So to have him up all night, they had to pound coffee into him.

[2730] Barthabar too, I see here also.

[2731] And also the dock, Brad's dock.

[2732] Yeah.

[2733] It's called Growing Up Gris.

[2734] I want to re -watch that, young Brad.

[2735] Did you know your Bart was in Game of Thrones?

[2736] Really?

[2737] The Bear and the Maiden Fair episode.

[2738] Oh, my gosh.

[2739] So there's only been two?

[2740] Bart 2 died in 2021.

[2741] So maybe he's got a three now.

[2742] He certainly has a new Bart. This reminds me of my grandma that she had many schnauzers and they were all named Fritz.

[2743] Oh, my gosh.

[2744] She just kept replacing the, and they were all silver, miniature schnauzers and they were all oh yeah you couldn't like when i would visit for the summer i didn't really know if it was the same fritz from last summer is that ethemann sure she didn't have a patreon account all right well then it's fine this is fun fritz there are many fritzes many barts poor bart's well also lived a great life and again incredible incredible career and resume yeah Credits galore.

[2745] Bart, too, worked with Matt Damon.

[2746] Which one?

[2747] You bought a zoo.

[2748] Oh, wow.

[2749] I forgot about that movie.

[2750] I wonder who Bart's favorite person is.

[2751] Human co -star was.

[2752] Probably Seth Green.

[2753] But if he was working nights, he probably was in a grompy mood.

[2754] Also, he was in New Zealand.

[2755] Although, that's like a fun vacation.

[2756] I tell you he was the first bear to ever be in New Zealand.

[2757] What an honor.

[2758] All right.

[2759] Well, that's pretty much it.

[2760] There were, like, no facts.

[2761] It was a great episode.

[2762] Yeah.

[2763] Loved it.

[2764] Loved Ethan.

[2765] And that's a non -union project, so I don't feel bad that we...

[2766] This was before the strike.

[2767] But also, we're promoting a doc that's not struck work.

[2768] I know, but we talked about other projects.

[2769] Oh, okay.

[2770] Well, don't watch those until the strike's over.

[2771] All right, love you.

[2772] Love you.

[2773] Follow armchair expert on the Wondry app.

[2774] music or wherever you get your podcasts.

[2775] You can listen to every episode of Armchair expert early and ad free right now by joining Wondry Plus in the Wondry app or on Apple podcasts.

[2776] Before you go, tell us about yourself by completing a short survey at Wondry .com slash survey.