Macklemore

[0] Welcome, welcome, welcome, Norm, chair expert.

[1] I'm Frank Hamburger, and I'm joined by Sally Taco.

[2] Sally Taco.

[3] It's been a long time since, A, we had a guest in person.

[4] Yes.

[5] It was so, so exciting to be back in person.

[6] It was.

[7] It was incredible.

[8] So today's guest is Maclemore, and Maclemore, of course, is a Grammy -winning rapper and songwriter.

[9] His albums include The Language of My Language of My.

[10] World, Gemini, the heist, this unruly mess I've made, and he has a new golf clothing brand called Bogey Boys, and he personally designs this stuff, and he brought it, and he was wearing it, and he looked handsome as hell, and he left some for us.

[11] Yeah, and it was gorgeous.

[12] Yeah.

[13] But the level of honesty from him, the self -awareness, the everything, was off the charts.

[14] It was.

[15] It was really a special episode, and I think, like a lot of the guests we have, sometimes people, including us, come in with some preconceptions.

[16] sure and it's just nice to hear from the person oh my god yeah we absolutely loved him and he brought his wife and we met her and that was lovely as well so please enjoy macklemore wondery plus subscribers can listen to armchair expert early and ad free right now join wondry plus in the wondry app or on apple podcasts or you can listen for free wherever you get your podcasts He's an alternative Check, check, yeah, we're in there Ah, uh -huh Nice, nice Just talk for one more second I'll make sure you're not Check check check 1 -212 Yeah, that's really nice That's really, really nice Okay, that's the whole episode So thanks for me Yeah, no, thank you for it I'm glad we could do it in person It felt different I don't think we could have got this on Zoom You're sober, right?

[17] I am.

[18] Everything runs through the sober filter a little bit, yeah Yeah, so yesterday I didn't even tell you this money You relapse?

[19] Another relapse.

[20] They're coming hot and fast.

[21] I talked to the infectious disease doctor, which I had not ever spoken to.

[22] I just deal with my surgeon.

[23] He's in love with his surgeon.

[24] Head over heels.

[25] He's the sexiest, most competent man alive.

[26] A little man crash.

[27] Yeah, yeah.

[28] Dr. Delamajaro, big shout out.

[29] Sexiest man alive.

[30] Anyways, so I said to the infectious disease guy, I said, where did the infection come from?

[31] Was it like the bruising caused necrotic tissue that then got infected or something?

[32] And he said, no, no, no. It most certainly got infected down the first surgery, right?

[33] Oh.

[34] He was like, unless someone put a needle in your arm with bacteria into the bone, it probably happened while the suture was healing.

[35] So insanely, this fucking bicycle accent that I was so mad about that I then had to have another surgery about totally save me. He's like, that infection would have become a very big deal in your life had we not found it by going back in.

[36] So I was like, is that, I mean, I'm not a God person, but I'm like, that's a pretty crazy fucking chain of events to find out.

[37] they would have not known about that infection.

[38] Ooh.

[39] Damn, well.

[40] Electric bikes in L .A. Uh -huh.

[41] You got to watch your ass.

[42] You know, bikes are more dangerous than motorcycles.

[43] Yeah, I guess it makes sense.

[44] I mean, I hear about way more people dying on bicycles than motorcycles.

[45] Yeah.

[46] Driving here for the last 12 hours.

[47] Uh -huh.

[48] It just seems sketchy.

[49] Yeah, it's not easy.

[50] The speed limit here is 40.

[51] Like, I'm going, like, 32, like, this is intense.

[52] Uh -huh.

[53] Well, can I make a generalization about Washington nights, Seattleites?

[54] Yeah, you're going to hurt my feelings off the jump.

[55] Okay, go ahead.

[56] Well, I'm going to both flatter you a bunch today, and I'm going to hurt your feelings a bunch.

[57] Okay, so I dated a girl for nine years.

[58] That was from Marysville.

[59] When it rains in Seattle, which occurs 280 days of the year.

[60] It's depressing, but true, yes.

[61] People drive about 21 miles an hour on the highway.

[62] Yeah.

[63] Now I'm from Detroit, where in seven inches of snow, people are still going 85.

[64] People are spinning out of control up onto Vidox and shit.

[65] But I would always say to Bree, I'm like, you would think you guys, would be a little more comfortable driving in the rain.

[66] You would.

[67] It starts to rain, and you're like, you guys, we've had this for a while now, okay?

[68] We're on day 90 of rain consecutive days.

[69] We should have this figured out, and we don't.

[70] Yeah, it's one of the few strikes I would put against the greater Seattle area.

[71] Just a couple.

[72] Can I now fluff your pillows?

[73] Please.

[74] Okay, now when I was a practicing alcoholic, top three places to drink in my life that I've had the most fun, Capitol Hill.

[75] Yeah.

[76] And you're from Capitol Hill.

[77] I am.

[78] Born and raised.

[79] Tell Monica what Capitol Hill is all about.

[80] Are we talking about Capitol Hill in the 80s?

[81] Are we talking about Capitol Hill now?

[82] Oh, that's a good distinction.

[83] Because they are very different.

[84] My wife and I were talking about this yesterday.

[85] I grew up in Capitol Hill.

[86] It was a very progressive neighborhood.

[87] Uh -huh.

[88] Kind of the LGBTQ hub of...

[89] The Castro of...

[90] Yes, absolutely.

[91] Or the West Hollywood.

[92] And it was the arts community.

[93] It was people that...

[94] wrote graffiti and were gay and did drugs and I feel like the goth movement, I don't know if it actually came from Seattle, but like the hipster movement before it was called like hipster, it's like that's what Capitol Hill was growing up.

[95] And since then, it has become a place where Amazon employees live and it's very high rent.

[96] It's like Bohemian, but it's expensive.

[97] Yeah, basically all the artists got priced out.

[98] Yeah, and you have people, condos, and people that can afford those, and those aren't the artist.

[99] So then I guess I was probably there in the sweet spot, which was mid -90s, which is like, there were so many bars, so much pedestrian traffic to support all these, like restaurants, bars, blah, blah, blah, and it wasn't crazy expensive.

[100] No, not at all.

[101] Yeah, and it was a great place to black out.

[102] Other favorite place to drink.

[103] Yeah.

[104] Gasworks Park.

[105] Yeah.

[106] You ever go down there and drink a 40?

[107] That was a little north for me, but yes, absolutely.

[108] There's been 40 ounces consumed gas works, yes.

[109] I just can't get over the rain.

[110] Oh, sure, sure.

[111] Once you started talking about the rain, because I have seasonal affective disorder.

[112] Monica, where are you from?

[113] Georgia.

[114] Georgia.

[115] Yeah.

[116] There's some rain there, but...

[117] More sunshine than rain.

[118] Yeah, exactly.

[119] And it doesn't affect you.

[120] Or do you like it?

[121] No, I'm depressed.

[122] Okay.

[123] And then you throw in some COVID and you're not allowed to travel and you're like, oh, okay.

[124] Because the thing about my job has been I get to leave for a substantial amount of time.

[125] And you have two little kids?

[126] I have two little girls, yeah.

[127] How old are they?

[128] Three and almost six.

[129] Oh, yeah, you're dying to get the fuck out of the house for like just a weekend's all you need.

[130] My wife is in the corner, but, you know, Dax, yes.

[131] Let's be real.

[132] No, I mean, I think that there's just time periods in Seattle where, like, you have the rain season.

[133] It hits in October.

[134] And it's like, okay, here we are.

[135] But we got Halloween at the end of the month.

[136] Okay, okay.

[137] And football for you starting up.

[138] And football starting.

[139] We're okay.

[140] And then it's like, okay, it's the holidays.

[141] And then it's New Year's.

[142] And then it's like, oh, my God, it's going to rain for another four to five months straight.

[143] No, no, no, no. And that is tough.

[144] Like, once it hits January, February, the depression is very real.

[145] Now, I have an armchair theory about Seattle, which is, again, I used to go there.

[146] Sead.

[147] Oh, my God.

[148] It says sad.

[149] I don't think I've ever heard that.

[150] Seriously.

[151] Seattle puts the sad and Adel.

[152] Definitely stealing all of these for T -shirts But in my time up there I had the most predictable pattern I would arrive They lived right on the Puget Sound It was gorgeous I would go God this is one of the most beautiful places In the world The pine trees, the evergreens The mist in the morning That would be day one and day two Day three I'd find out like Oh my slept till 10 That's not like me And then day three I would sleep to 11 And then I would just find that I was so exhausted When I was up there that I would drink copious amounts of coffee.

[153] And I thought, oh, well, that's the goddamn reason, Seattle.

[154] So known for coffee.

[155] Right.

[156] Everyone's exhausted, right?

[157] Am I right about this?

[158] Since you started talking about this, I've gotten more fatigued.

[159] And I need to drink this coffee.

[160] I'll say this.

[161] It's almost cliche to say, the one thing that is good about the rain is I feel like for artists, it keeps you inside.

[162] Like when I'm in L .A., I'm like, oh, but I want to get outside.

[163] I don't want to create today.

[164] It's sunny.

[165] If you're in Seattle, you're like, I literally do not want to open my doorknob.

[166] I might as well stay inside and make some art. And I'm sad.

[167] Yeah.

[168] Which is the best art comes from depression.

[169] So let's get sad.

[170] Let's stay inside.

[171] Let's make some music.

[172] Yeah, it's a liability to be happy and content as an artist.

[173] It doesn't work.

[174] Career suicide.

[175] Yeah.

[176] Yeah, fine meaning.

[177] Why were your parents in Capitol Hill?

[178] What did they do?

[179] My mom when I was born was a social worker.

[180] My dad worked at a furniture company.

[181] spot.

[182] Manufacturing or selling?

[183] He was selling, actually.

[184] He was in sales.

[185] Okay.

[186] And yeah, I think they were hippies.

[187] They moved to Seattle.

[188] They did drugs.

[189] They partied and kicked it.

[190] Good.

[191] I'm sure my mom right now is, we'll be listening and be like, oh, we didn't do drugs.

[192] Yeah, they did drugs.

[193] It was a poppin neighborhood.

[194] They were in their late 20s, early 30s, and they were still going out and kicking it and having a good time.

[195] Yeah.

[196] Did they move from other states there?

[197] They were in Oakland and moved up to Seattle.

[198] Similar vibe.

[199] Yeah, yeah.

[200] A little chilly, a little overcast.

[201] Yes, all that.

[202] So you got interested in music quite early.

[203] Yeah, you were like six years old or something?

[204] Yeah, I think from the beginning, I remember the first song that I really fell in love with was from the Beverly Hills Cop soundtrack.

[205] A lot of good jams on there.

[206] The heat is on.

[207] The heat is on.

[208] Da -na -na -na -da -da -da -da -da -da.

[209] Like, what a line.

[210] Uh -huh.

[211] The heat is...

[212] Yeah, that buildup.

[213] And I just love that shit.

[214] I don't know, it was just like, I remember having this little boombox and just being like, play it again, play it again.

[215] It was really that there was the intro to music.

[216] And then I went from that to like gangster rap at seven years old.

[217] Okay.

[218] My next door neighbor was probably like 10 or 11.

[219] And it was NWA transitioning from the Beverly Hills cop soundtrack to just straight up like Ice Cube.

[220] Okay, great.

[221] So I was looking at your influences, and I saw some overlap for us, which was exciting for me. But to Lib Qualley, we both.

[222] Yeah, we love.

[223] Yes.

[224] Ice Cube for me. I could probably every lyric off of every single CD of this.

[225] But you were more of East Coasty.

[226] Well, yes.

[227] I mean, I started out, again, this is when I was like seven years old.

[228] So we go through a whole West Coast gangster rap and pop music and Michael Jackson into as I got older teenage years, East Coast.

[229] all the way for a while there.

[230] Wutang Clan and Biggie and Mobb Deep and all that.

[231] At the time it's interesting because looking at myself as a middle schooler, this East Coast, West Coast beef was such like, you almost had to pick a side.

[232] Even being like a white kid from Capitol Hill, it was like, well, are you East Coast or West Coast?

[233] So yeah, there was an era, absolutely it was just East Coast and then it was just everything.

[234] Monica, do you know what, like the difference?

[235] I know you know everything.

[236] I'm so sorry to have you been No, I was going to say, I need to know more about the RIF.

[237] Okay, well, the Rift is one thing, right?

[238] So the Rift is there's a B -T award, Puffy and his crew's winning a lot of shit.

[239] Shig Nights winning a lot of stuff with his crew.

[240] And then at some point, Shug Nights on stage.

[241] He says, if you want to work with the producers, that's not all up in the videos, burning Puffy, that sets the whole thing off.

[242] Everything kind of them builds off to that moment.

[243] But prior to that, I would say identified with East Coast Rapp, not for that reason, not because of that but in my opinion west coast rap was more like fuck and party and east coast was more like bohemian semi -deep there was more jazz like you had people playing real instruments on stuff you had tribe called quest you had all these kind of like elevated progressive thoughtful musicians would you agree yeah i mean i think that everyone's just kind of a sign of the environment that they're growing up in like you had the music from l .a you're coming off of like Rodney King riots, Snoop Dog, Dr. Dre, Ice Cube, all of this is like very political as well.

[244] It's more in your face.

[245] It's like fuck the police.

[246] Like this is what's going on in the neighborhood.

[247] And then you also have on, like you're saying on the East Coast, you have your tribes and brand newbians and later on commons and Talibs and Moses that are different, they grew up in a different environment.

[248] Yeah.

[249] So back to your, you go inside in the, when it's shitty outside.

[250] So yeah, in L .A., like you're outside.

[251] sunny all the time, you're fucking having some parties.

[252] Yeah, absolutely.

[253] Absolutely.

[254] But mind you, I love virtually all of it.

[255] I think the deepest rabbit hole I went down was the East Coast stuff.

[256] Yeah.

[257] So would Jay Z qualify's East Coast?

[258] Oh, yeah.

[259] He doesn't qualify in anything because he's just like overall.

[260] He does transcend all the things.

[261] He does.

[262] For me. Maybe not for you.

[263] Does he?

[264] No, he does.

[265] He's the richer prior for me. Yeah, he came a little bit later.

[266] Jay popped in 96, 97.

[267] This was like...

[268] 92, 93.

[269] Yeah, this was coming up into that.

[270] So he almost like was just a little bit later than all of this like controversy back and forth.

[271] Okay, so when you were loving all this and having an interest in music, there is no M &M at that point.

[272] No. Right?

[273] No. There's no Mac Miller.

[274] So at that point are you going, well, there's vanilla ice, which you're not going to look at that and go like, yeah, I guess I could be vanilla ice.

[275] So are you thinking there's no spot for me in this?

[276] That's a great.

[277] Question.

[278] When I first started to make music, I'm 15 years old, 14 years old.

[279] You had the Beastie Boys.

[280] That was a little bit before my time.

[281] Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[282] I didn't exactly aspire to be Vanilla Ice.

[283] But there was underground hip hop.

[284] Underground hip hop to the point that, like, we couldn't even really probably have a conversation unless you were listening to the same, like, ripped songs from LimeWire that I was back in 1997 or something.

[285] Almost a genre that now doesn't exist with how the internet works.

[286] It was like the internet was almost brand new it was like oh how did you get that this thing called the internet i was never aspiring to be like a massive artist i was aspiring to just do a show locally i want to your mark that for one second as you were saying that i was thinking you're what born in 83 yeah so i'm eight years older than you and probably yeah the difference in my childhood and yours was we would go to these record stores in detroit and combed through shit and try to find old donald bird stuff or try to find feral sanders or all this stuff and then you were in the era where your exploration would be on line wire yes not that you didn't do that no but we did that too but yes when i started to make music it was like the internet was a thing where you could find music and i just can't imagine how much quicker i would have been consuming stuff because like i had to fucking drive to detroit and it took forever to leave through the albums and then you walk it over to the record plate like so if i wanted to listen to ten songs in the day that was my day right but in the error of limewire you could like blow through shit and find out what you love yeah my brother's four and a half years younger than me. I feel like that's his generation.

[287] I think that I'm more your generation.

[288] I'm kind of in between, but we didn't have good internet.

[289] So like, I'm more of like that we were digging in the crates as well.

[290] Okay.

[291] But people were on the internet.

[292] Yeah.

[293] But yeah, kind of straddling both.

[294] Yeah.

[295] Well, yeah, because on like Napster and stuff, you could find a song that you probably wouldn't be able to find in a record store because they probably don't have a record.

[296] It's just like they put a song up, or maybe not Naps or Limeier, all those things.

[297] So it got so big, so quickly, the music scene, I feel like.

[298] But you're right.

[299] There were certain albums we went to like nine record stores in search of, which you wouldn't have had to do.

[300] By the way, you're the exact age as younger brother.

[301] You put that together, fast math that?

[302] Yeah, fast math.

[303] Okay, was he born in 87?

[304] You don't know he's your brother.

[305] Yeah, let's call it When you have an older brother, you know what year they're born, but when you have a younger sibling, you don't know.

[306] He came around later.

[307] You fuck my life up.

[308] Shout out to Timmy.

[309] He's great.

[310] Okay, so it sounds like as you were exploring all that, maybe there were other folks out there that were doing it.

[311] It didn't seem insane.

[312] Again, it wasn't that I was aspiring to be any of those artists that we were just talking about.

[313] It's just like, I want to rap locally.

[314] And then eventually it turned into, you know what would be crazy is if I could go and make enough money to pay the bills.

[315] Like a 500 cap room to be able to hit like major markets in America at a 500 cap room was the absolute ceiling that I ever saw myself getting to.

[316] And that came with like a bunch of prerequisites, number one being sobriety.

[317] Like if I could get sober and stay clean long enough, then I could put some music out.

[318] They would connect and resonate.

[319] And maybe one day I could play a 500 cap room.

[320] room in Boston.

[321] And that was the time.

[322] This is why they tell you on New Year's resolutions, like, you know, set them low.

[323] It's true.

[324] Like baby steps.

[325] That's what you're supposed to do.

[326] Like, if you set out to play stadiums, you probably ain't going to get there.

[327] Right.

[328] Do you think about that a lot?

[329] That, like, that was the best I was ever going to get.

[330] I was just kind of reflecting with a friend the other day, and we were talking about money, getting paid to make art. And I remember getting offered to do a show in Colorado for things.

[331] 300 bucks.

[332] And this is when Ryan Lewis and I had started to make some music together.

[333] And it was 300 bucks.

[334] The ticket was 250 to get down there.

[335] And it was like, sorry, Ryan, like, we don't have enough money for you to come.

[336] So I'm going to go with this mini disc player and DJ for myself and give these like 27 people a show that they're never going to forget.

[337] And there was a grind and a hunger to turn those really shitty situations that I was in early on forever into great shows and that's what turned me into a good performer it was like a decade plus of doing shows like that and I think that there's something about the internet now where it's like if you put out a song or if you get a buzz then it's just like bam you're at like the summer jam stage at hot 97 and you have one record that everyone knows whereas before it was like okay you need to pay dues and work really hard for a really long time.

[338] Okay, so I'm seeing this crazy overlap between what you do as a solo rapper and stand -up.

[339] Right?

[340] Like the notion the first time you're going to go out there and fucking rap, because I find among the scariest thoughts in my mind, me rapping out loud in front of people is terrifying.

[341] Monica?

[342] Can you, I mean, when you rapping out loud is terrifying to me. I would rather have sex on stage in front of strangers.

[343] Of course you would.

[344] Well, yeah, I would like to do that anyways.

[345] Yes, it's the scariest thing.

[346] Yeah, very vulnerable.

[347] Oh, my God, yeah.

[348] So what was the very first time you did it?

[349] And did you have nerves like you were going to do stand -up?

[350] I'm just trying to shake you having sex on stage in front of a bunch of people and me being an audience.

[351] You would love it.

[352] You would love it so much.

[353] You'd be planning your ticket for the next show as soon as it started.

[354] It was one of those things.

[355] I wanted to be on stage from the minute that I heard the heat is on.

[356] I immediately learned all the words.

[357] It was like my grandparents' table was the stage and I get up on it and call everyone in and they'd be like, yo, we just saw your show 10 minutes ago.

[358] We don't want to see it again.

[359] But it was that thing.

[360] I studied Michael Jackson.

[361] It was like I wanted to be that dude.

[362] So by the time that I actually had an opportunity, I don't think that there really were nerves.

[363] I was horrible.

[364] I had one of those moms that was just like, my God, you're amazing.

[365] Wow, you could do anything.

[366] And I was like, well, I guess I am the shit.

[367] Okay.

[368] Let's do this life thing.

[369] I had this confidence that wasn't warranted whatsoever.

[370] Yeah, it's like naive.

[371] Absolutely.

[372] I had no clue what I was doing on stage.

[373] I used to lose my voice within the first, you know, 30 seconds of a verse.

[374] I don't know what's going on.

[375] I'm screaming into the microphone.

[376] But I wanted more of it.

[377] Sure.

[378] And I was trash for a really long time, but I didn't know I was trash because there was no internet.

[379] Ah, there was no social media.

[380] They couldn't tell me how it was bad.

[381] Yeah.

[382] Because people are a lot nicer in real life than they are on the internet.

[383] Oh, by a factor of like a hundred.

[384] Yes.

[385] I've had one guy, like, drive by me in Seattle one time right by my house and be like, you suck, McLemore.

[386] That's the only time that I've ever had any negative thing happened to me in real life.

[387] Yeah.

[388] Was he super radical?

[389] Like when you looked at him, were you like, yeah, he's got the moral high ground here.

[390] This guy rocks.

[391] You definitely had like the mullet that I have now.

[392] Okay.

[393] I had a mustache like I have now.

[394] He was that guy.

[395] So you did aspire to be him.

[396] It sounds like he did have it all.

[397] I flipped it on 12 years later.

[398] But yeah, there was something in me that felt really comfortable on a stage and performing.

[399] Yeah.

[400] But even when you were talking about going to Denver, I was reminded of performing with an improv group at like this Long Beach Outdoor Festival.

[401] And we were on a stage in a field with six people watching.

[402] And then like a hundred yards with some rock band fucking jamming.

[403] And we're not mined.

[404] I mean, it was just the savage beating for like two hours.

[405] And I was like, man. But you leave those shows.

[406] It's so weird.

[407] Even though they're objectively horrific.

[408] Yeah, yeah.

[409] You leave and you're like still breaking down.

[410] Oh, and this scene, this happened.

[411] And we should have done it.

[412] Like, you're still taking it so.

[413] Yes.

[414] Because there's no better teacher than a small audience.

[415] That's the greatest teacher.

[416] If I can literally look into the audience and see the 12 people that are there and when they laugh and when they don't and how that transition worked and when it didn't and what beat resonated when it dropped.

[417] And when I'm taking that in, that taught me how to do it.

[418] That's the laboratory.

[419] Yeah.

[420] Yeah.

[421] I imagine it's the same with stand -up.

[422] I mean, I was listening to Steve Harvey on some inspirational Instagram video.

[423] posted the other day, like, talk about the same thing of making $50 and winning something and quitting his day job and, like, struggling for the next decade or something.

[424] Yeah.

[425] Yeah.

[426] But you get that, like, really intimate experience.

[427] Yeah, comedy, you get some real immediate feedback.

[428] Mm -hmm.

[429] But it's also good because if before you're known, like now if you did stand -up, I'm sure it'd be amazing.

[430] But if it wasn't, people would still laugh because they like you and they know you, but before you get to that point is when you really know if you're good or, yeah.

[431] Well, Seinfeld talks about, he has talked about this several times where you get five minutes for being famous.

[432] Like the first five minutes you come out, doing stand -up if you're already famous, people are just thrilled to see you.

[433] Right.

[434] And then the show really starts at that point.

[435] And then you find out whether your shit is good or bad, even if you're Seinfeld.

[436] I remember like opening up for Snoop Dog.

[437] It was like a last -minute thing.

[438] And it was before we were anything.

[439] And I'm like, oh, shit, like what's going to happen?

[440] And the idea that I could end up getting booed off stage made us go so hard.

[441] You know, it's like, I need to prove myself in this environment.

[442] Yeah.

[443] Are you an approval junkie like me?

[444] Of course.

[445] I'm a fucking addict, man. I want to be loved.

[446] Yeah.

[447] Yes.

[448] By boys or girls more equal?

[449] Anything.

[450] I want every sentient being to love me, of course.

[451] Yes.

[452] I think that that's been one of the greatest teachings of people.

[453] being famous is you have to learn to love yourself.

[454] Yeah, it doesn't work.

[455] No, it doesn't work.

[456] It's never enough.

[457] Yeah.

[458] It's never enough.

[459] And there's always someone that doesn't.

[460] And if you're literally living for that validation from other people, happiness is not achievable for me. Yeah, same, same.

[461] I mean, sometimes, particularly in COVID, like when we've literally all just reverted back to like, I'm a dad.

[462] I'm just a dad.

[463] That's all I am now.

[464] You don't become famous, yeah, and see what other people.

[465] See it.

[466] You're just like, I'm this dude.

[467] I'm struggling.

[468] I'm happy.

[469] I made a good song last night.

[470] Today's song sucked.

[471] Like, you never really shift those glasses.

[472] That lens doesn't really change.

[473] Yeah.

[474] You're always who you are.

[475] Yeah.

[476] Mine's good for the last while, which I didn't think was possible, which I'm grateful for.

[477] I think it might be an H thing as well.

[478] Yes.

[479] Yes.

[480] And you do a lot of podcasts.

[481] I do a lot of podcasts.

[482] Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[483] Yeah.

[484] My bucket is getting.

[485] filled publicly quite a bit.

[486] And I think that that is something when you're constantly creating, then it can shift because you're in a space of action.

[487] You're in a space of I'm making something consistently.

[488] I'm contributing to the world.

[489] I'm having conversations, meaningful dialogue with other people.

[490] It's in a way helping others.

[491] And when you're doing that, there's fulfillment in meaning in life.

[492] It can turn really quickly being in the field of being an artist and a .k .a. a narcissist in thinking only about my career and what's going on and how is this going to resonate with the world, etc. Where I think I have an advantage as well is that like so your work is solitary or at best there are what three or four of you sharing the experience.

[493] Right.

[494] I don't know how much time it takes.

[495] All I know is for whatever reason this has been easy to enjoy process and literally not think about results, which is a very rare state for my brain to be.

[496] absolutely like this is all i'm after yeah now if it's great cool and if people like it great and if they don't whatever but this is what i'm after yeah which is rare for me are you there i am there to a certain extent i think that there's moments in the creative process when you're with other people in that room and you are present and then that other voice comes after and it's like dude this sounds like a single what's the video treatment this is going to be be the one it shows and it's like nope we're literally been in the studio for 15 minutes let's shut the fuck up and continue to try to catch the spirit yeah I bet that is hard it is or that fear that fear comes in it's the opposite and it's like bro you've been in here for two hours this is a waste of time how do we get out of here gracefully we book this thing for another two hours and it's actually my basement so it's kind of easy to leave both still but yeah to not have those external voices of what is this going to do how is this going to be perceived is this going to be successful and the best art comes from being present with no expectations that's where that conduit of something bigger than ourselves comes from that's that moment where we're open if we're blocking the heart with the head there's no way for that magic to happen in the room I've spent a lot of my life just trying to get to that point of like how do I get outside of my head and back into the heart and make art from that place.

[497] Yeah.

[498] Stay tuned for more armchair expert.

[499] If you dare.

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[518] It's hard, though, because you have to have the magic for the music, but you also do have to have the brain working in the business sense.

[519] Like, those things do have to happen.

[520] I think cutting everyone some slack, it's not just like, just be present because there's this whole other entity that has to also be working.

[521] Great point.

[522] I think that's a great point, and it gets back to Dax's question of, like, am I there?

[523] I can get there in the studio.

[524] I think that when it turns into like rollout time, when it turns into like, okay, what's going to, the two are going to look like and what venues are we going to play?

[525] And I'm not on a label.

[526] So we do myself, my wife, my management, we have a very small team of people that we've always been in the control.

[527] You know, like, if we win, we win.

[528] If we lose, like it's the four of us that are really losing here.

[529] It's on us.

[530] I totally agree with you, Monica.

[531] But what I would say is, yeah, what you're aiming for is being able to compartmentalize those times in your life then they are actually action so it's like you've made the music you've mastered it blah blah blah it's this thing and now the new process is how do we get this out in the biggest way possible right and then that's action that's that's being present absolutely that's not future surfing that's like what you're at physically doing in that moment and if you can try to just keep only doing the thing that you would do in the present yep i think we'd all be super happy folks i'm curious because i think where you have a similar story in that it appeared i got famous overnight because i was on the show punked and then five seconds later i was like a co -lead of three movies that were studio movies and so i think for most people they're like wow this came out of nowhere but again i forgot you were on punked you were on punked i sure was yeah yeah that's where it all started yeah j t damn got him good yeah like uh did he cry was there a tear we talked about that yeah i tried to say there's not because I don't want him to be made fun of...

[532] I think it's sweet that he could...

[533] Because his dogs, his mom's dogs were being threatened to be taken away.

[534] So that's a sweet thing, reason to cry.

[535] That was so good.

[536] Yeah.

[537] But so I didn't handle it very well.

[538] So then I had all these opportunities.

[539] And the first movie I was in did really well.

[540] And then pretty much it's like a downhill slide from there for many, many years until I was on this TV show where it kind of picked back up.

[541] But I was like, oh, yeah, I got all the shit.

[542] And then so now I don't even have to regulate my partying because like the thing that always bridled my parting was like I got to be productive.

[543] But now it's easy to be productive because I'm getting opportunities and I can just show up and be productive.

[544] But for me, any conscious I had about partying just went out the window.

[545] I was like, okay, now I can fucking rage the way I've wanted to.

[546] What's your story?

[547] Very different than that.

[548] I got clean in 2008, went to rehab for the first time.

[549] Where'd you go?

[550] A place called The Orchard on Bowen Island, actually in Canada.

[551] Oh, it sounds nice.

[552] Shout out to the friends of the orchard up there in Canada.

[553] Our northern neighbors.

[554] Amazing experience.

[555] All the things that rehab should be.

[556] Was there an intervention that got you there?

[557] Yeah, my dad approached me via my mom telling him he needed to approach me. And I was like, are you happy?

[558] and I said yes, and then was like, no, I'm not.

[559] I'm so scared.

[560] But I couldn't stop, and I tried my entire life to quit on my own, and it just didn't work.

[561] I would be like, all right, now I'm just going to smoke weed.

[562] All right, now I'm just going to drink beer.

[563] It was always this, like, back and forth, and it never worked.

[564] It got worse.

[565] I was doing a lot of opiads, and it felt like dying because I was pretty fucking close.

[566] 2008 too the floodgates were still open like my recent relapse it was a pain in the fucking ass to get opiates yeah yeah well you've been out the game for a while yeah and now just the whole market is flooded with fentanyl so you can die so like making sure you actually have a prescription oxy is hard yes very true but in 2008 they were just like you had you had pill mills everywhere it was easy right yeah it was definitely easy yeah so I went there amazing experience.

[567] Stayed sober for three and a half years and in that time period.

[568] Did you go to meetings during that time?

[569] Yes, absolutely.

[570] Went to meetings, service position, consistent, working steps, all that.

[571] Again, getting back to the music, I always felt like if I could just stay clean for long enough, I can make some art. It would be meaningful.

[572] And Ryan and I made the heist in that time period.

[573] So by the time that the heist came out, I think I had just, relapsed, but it was like one of those like one or two day things.

[574] I had gotten some cough syrup and drank it for a little coating thing for a couple days and told my now wife at the time, girlfriend, that it had happened.

[575] So anyway, it was around that time period that I relapsed, but I still stayed sober.

[576] I knew that if I wanted to make art, I had to be clean and I did that.

[577] So I got famous and I was in recovery.

[578] Like I had made songs about this shit.

[579] I had been public about it.

[580] I have talked about it.

[581] I've had three and a half years.

[582] Relapse, now I have a year and a half.

[583] People are coming up to me at the show, and that was some of my first experiences with, you know, because I didn't know getting out of treatment if I was going to talk about it or not.

[584] I'm like, no one talks about this.

[585] Yeah, yeah.

[586] In hip -hop or pop culture, period.

[587] It's almost this shunned thing.

[588] This celebrity's going to rehab.

[589] The TILIB line, taking Vicodin pills to numb the pain that they feel.

[590] Like, that's the only line I've even heard in a hip -hop song about Viking it.

[591] Right, talking about it.

[592] Yeah.

[593] And yet there's this epidemic happening, but there's this stigma around it and we don't, as a culture, want to talk about it.

[594] The anonymity part of the program, can we talk about it if we're in recovery?

[595] Can we not?

[596] We're not supposed to.

[597] Press radio film.

[598] Yeah.

[599] What do I say?

[600] What do I not say?

[601] And I was just like, I'm just going to fucking share my experience, strength and hope.

[602] Well, by the way, you're only obligation as an artist or writer or anything is to tell your story that's the only one you know with any authenticity yeah it would be disingenuous to not tell what was going on yeah then the fame came the fame came and um and shit got crazy there was so much happening so fast we were kind of like on the up and coming a year before the heist so we had booked all of these college shows relatively low -paying college shows all over the country.

[603] How many dates are we talking?

[604] Too many.

[605] Okay.

[606] Like 20?

[607] No, we're talking about like 100.

[608] Oh, my God.

[609] And this is before anything's happened.

[610] So we're in a white van, you know, driving around doing these shows.

[611] And it's not like there's some routing here.

[612] It's like, okay, tonight we're flying into Boston.

[613] Your show is not in Boston, though.

[614] It's in a college two and a half hours north of Boston.

[615] Then you need to drive back to the airport.

[616] You're at the airport at four.

[617] You're going to sleep from four to five o 'clock.

[618] And then you're going to get back on a plane.

[619] You're going to fly to Florida to do the same.

[620] You know, it was nuts.

[621] And the fact that your own label makes me think someone's holding a piece of lined paper with all this run down.

[622] Yeah.

[623] It was definitely my wife.

[624] And we're the sober people.

[625] So I'm performing, then getting in the white van.

[626] My wife and our switching back and forth driving.

[627] It was madness.

[628] And we've been like broke, stuff.

[629] starving artists our entire lives.

[630] So, like, when shit's starting to happen, you don't feel like this is going to continue to happen.

[631] You're like, oh, we have to take the 10 grand that's over in Boston.

[632] Even though we're not going to sleep, and we have to do that.

[633] Of course.

[634] And then we need to do it the next day.

[635] And as long as this is coming, this is happening as our album is going number one.

[636] And all of a sudden, Thrift Shop turns into the biggest song in the world.

[637] And we still have all of these like 10 grand college paying shows booked.

[638] Yeah, because every time you perform at one of those, you're literally thinking, not that I'm making 10 grand, but that I'm losing like $150 ,000 or whatever it is.

[639] But we're like, you know, this grassroots like mama pop band.

[640] It's like, no, we will show up.

[641] Yeah, yeah.

[642] We will be at the all -girls school four hours outside of Tampa.

[643] That's just what we're going to do.

[644] So eventually the program became second.

[645] Uh -huh, yeah.

[646] And one of the things that's always stuck with me from rehab is that whatever you put in front of your recovery will be the first thing that you lose.

[647] and it wasn't just a relapse anymore it was the sneaky lying I'm getting pills and I'm not telling anybody yeah and you're lonely as fuck at that point right then it like really turned big then all of a sudden it's like Rolling Stone covers award shows like I can't go anywhere TMZ big and that kind of sucked I feel like it was just kind of numbing this whole thing the love the criticism everything it just kind of balanced everything out and I was just numb to it all In a period of time where you would think like, dude, you worked your entire life to get to this point.

[648] Feel it.

[649] Feel it.

[650] Yeah.

[651] I couldn't feel it.

[652] I can barely remember it.

[653] All of it's kind of a blur.

[654] Really quick.

[655] Yeah.

[656] I think there's a few explanations for that.

[657] And I think it can also be a combination of things.

[658] But I similarly never felt it.

[659] And I wonder, like, I don't know for myself, but part of it is like, A, I don't deserve this.

[660] I'm a fraud, I can't actually accept all this, which I guess is I'm not worthy of love and adoration, even though that's all I'm looking for.

[661] And then maybe three is if I accept this, when I lose it, which I know I'm going to, it'll be super embarrassing because I actually was like feeling it.

[662] Yeah.

[663] That makes a lot of sense.

[664] The fear was rampant.

[665] Again, as someone that's like, wants to be liked and loved, and all of a sudden, like, the New York Times says something, about you or you read this article or whatever yeah it was really hard to cope with that being clean yeah and i lost the tools i think that for me being in recovery like i need to work an active program in order to have faith versus fear i've been completely in a place of narcissistic fear yeah what's also very dangerous about success is like i would in my little opiate relapse i would wake up feeling shameful about it and like oh fuck i lied and i'm gonna lie more today right and i'm taking this at 8 a .m with my coffee but i would lean on but i'm gonna make x amount of dollars this year so things are good it used to be i would wake up my one -bedroom apartment with that feeling and there's really nothing else for me to lean on it's like oh i feel this way i have this shame and i need more and my life's in the shambles yeah but i almost think having some things to lean on is also a detriment completely and a schedule completely mapped out right it's like well either way i need to go get on a plane and i need to be at the show and i need to perform and i'm going to do that so i'm doing my job right right right right i've just taken like six percocet today yeah and i'm not experiencing any of it right yeah did you find this like i was like for a while the lie i was telling myself i was like i'm totally functioning like i'm doing all the things i'm supposed to do yeah but in reflection while i was doing all those things which i was doing all i'm thinking about is I was like, okay, so this thing's over in 90 minutes.

[666] I'm going to go pee and I can take another 30 then.

[667] Like literally all my brain, my present brain is thinking about is the fucking pill schedule.

[668] Yeah.

[669] Even if I'm doing all the stuff.

[670] Yeah, it opens up those floodgates.

[671] The compulsion is back.

[672] Yeah, the disease is activated, the obsession.

[673] Yeah.

[674] It's hard to admit that even if you're doing it seemingly under control, the only thing you're really doing is thinking about those fucking pills.

[675] Yeah, I mean, I just want to say to both you, I really, really resonated with the episode where you talked about your relapse.

[676] Oh, thank you.

[677] And I, Justin Timberlake did.

[678] I cried.

[679] Oh, wow.

[680] I maybe had a tear.

[681] We're not exactly here.

[682] But it was within like two months of my COVID relapse.

[683] Oh, okay.

[684] And the disease of addiction is crazy.

[685] And for someone like you to have as much time as you had and to be vulnerable and honest and come out and tell your viewership, this is what happened.

[686] I blew it up.

[687] And I've only had three and a – I'm not going to minimize it.

[688] I had three and a half years at one point, like I said, but I have watched people in the program who get double -digit sobriety or whatever it is.

[689] But enough time where that is their identity.

[690] Yeah, yeah.

[691] That is who they are.

[692] And they start a share, and they're like, I don't know.

[693] I'm Ben, I'm an addict, my recovery date is da -na -na -na -na -1971, you know, and you're like, yeah, they're counting days still, and there's ego involved in that.

[694] Oh, big time.

[695] And to get vulnerable and real, the beautiful thing about recovery is when we do that, it lets other people feel like they're not alone and that they can actually open up and share about that shit.

[696] And it made me feel as someone that had relapsed again, like a month or two before, that I'm not alone.

[697] It's okay that I did this shit, it again.

[698] It's what we do.

[699] It's what we do.

[700] Yeah.

[701] And Monica, I think that your part in it was really awesome as well, like the conversation, the accountability.

[702] Because it's not about pointing the finger.

[703] It's not about like calling you out or like you lied and like, let's support and help and love.

[704] We are not finished products.

[705] This is something that happens to all of us all the time.

[706] How do we uplift right now versus like point the finger?

[707] You're already feeling enough guilt and shame and your egos, like, shattered from having this time and sponsoring people and all that.

[708] It's a lot.

[709] Yeah.

[710] Yeah, I think it's good to reframe it as it's not something that happened.

[711] It's something that happens.

[712] Right.

[713] Relapse when you're an addict.

[714] It's not like, oh, this happened once.

[715] It's like, yeah, this happens to people.

[716] Yeah.

[717] It's something to, you can't really take your eye off the ball.

[718] But for me, being close to Daxon, that whole experience.

[719] and just in general, it just taught me so much about addicts and addiction that I don't think you can know unless you love someone in that position because it is, again, I mean, I've said this so many times, but it was like, we're talking, we're in the middle of a conversation, it's gray, everything's fun, and then it's 2 p .m. Can I have my pills?

[720] And he doesn't even know it's 2 p .m. Like, he doesn't even have a watch.

[721] No, he knows.

[722] He knows exactly.

[723] Exactly.

[724] I've known 2 p .m. was coming for 30 minutes.

[725] Exactly.

[726] And if I look at my phone, I'm like, oh, it's 2 p .m. am okay like a dog who knows his supper i mean i think this idea that like it's a disease gets really overworn and everyone's just like oh yeah yeah but it is it is and you really really can feel it when you when you're close to it like yes you know back to the ego part when i came back and i was in meetings and i had three weeks there's one in particular i would go to on zoom in Detroit, and Detroit's way more religious than the L .A. scene is.

[727] And this one guy would share about God, God, God, God, God, God, God, God, God, God, God, God, God, God, God, God, God, God, God, God, God, God, God, God, God, God, God, God, God, God, God, God, God, God.

[728] This is what he should do, right?

[729] This one I'm thinking, I'm just, I am hating this guy.

[730] Yeah.

[731] And then, like, I was like, why am I so upset?

[732] And I'm like, oh, I know why, because I lost my whole high ground on him.

[733] and now I'm mad at him that he might be right or that I can't prove I'm right and I'm like oh it's so deep my whole which is so normal and so bullshit you know like we have today it's a spiritual reprieve contingent upon today that is what it is right and there's been times where I've had multiple years and I've been fucking broken and living in fear and completely miserable and there's been times where I've been clean for two weeks and have felt connected and have been of service and been present in working steps.

[734] I think that there is this idea of time.

[735] And what I also thought was interesting was when you used when your dad died, right?

[736] Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[737] And you told your wife.

[738] Right.

[739] And I've done the same thing.

[740] Yeah.

[741] Where it's like there's this secret, there's this thing, there's a slip.

[742] And like, what is it?

[743] How do we quantify it?

[744] And I can't lose this because right now I got eight years or whatever.

[745] was, I can't lose this thing or else the rails are going to fall.

[746] If I don't want to go back, if I just admit that I relapsed, then the disease is going to be like, motherfucker, you better go get some Coke.

[747] Yes.

[748] Like, we got to go out.

[749] Yeah, it's Jack Daniels time, yeah.

[750] And we play this game.

[751] At least I do.

[752] Yeah.

[753] I've done this a lot.

[754] Well, you're kind of evaluating, like, in our defense, a tiny bit.

[755] I'm evaluating that exact thing.

[756] Yeah.

[757] I call this a relapse, and I don't have eight years.

[758] Well, guess, opiates wasn't even my thing.

[759] Right.

[760] It's become my thing.

[761] Yeah.

[762] Yeah.

[763] Coke and Jack Daniels is my thing.

[764] And I know when I do those things, I disappear for like a week at a time.

[765] So yet, if the stakes feel like either I hide this or I admit I'm on day one, and now I'm afraid the addict brain is going to make me go out and die.

[766] Right.

[767] It feels like that's the stakes.

[768] Now, shockingly, I didn't ever have the desire to go drink.

[769] Thank fucking God.

[770] Yeah.

[771] Like that fear I had was not grounded in anything.

[772] getting back to why I went off on this tangent is like what you were talking about with the pills the disease doesn't know whether it's prescribed by a doctor or not the minute that I take anything that is mind -altering where I get that feeling where I change the way that my brain is working I want more of that yeah it doesn't matter if I got it from some dude down the street or if the best doctor in the world prescribed it to me yeah yeah and then there's surgeries there's things that we need to deal with the pain and that's what can get dicey because Because also, if you give me a bottle of pills and you tell me I take these every four to six hours, yes, on that fourth hour, I've been counting down for an hour and a half.

[773] And I get to tell you whether I'm in pain or not.

[774] Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[775] It's up to my discretion.

[776] It just becomes a slippery slope really quickly.

[777] And I've gotten to the point where I'm like, the free lapse is not appealing to me anymore because I don't like to have to fight that obsession.

[778] I'm so sick of the obsession.

[779] exhausting.

[780] It's exhausting.

[781] It is.

[782] And the free lapse doesn't feel good because I just had the free lapse.

[783] So I just had another round of surgery.

[784] And Kristen talked to the doctor ahead of time.

[785] I was never involved with any of it.

[786] And he's like, look, I'm giving him nothing.

[787] Yeah.

[788] And I'm giving him nothing for six days.

[789] Yeah.

[790] And the nothing doesn't feel like anything.

[791] Like so even the free lapse isn't the thing you and I are after.

[792] I want some sense of oblivion.

[793] Yes.

[794] Or I don't want it.

[795] Yeah.

[796] Yeah.

[797] It's more agitating to have your dick very close to the vagina, but never insert it.

[798] Well put, my friend.

[799] Do you think that addicts in recovery have maybe a more evolved look at death?

[800] Because you guys are so trained to take each day as it is.

[801] So maybe your feelings on death are a little bit less intense than most of the rest of us, because I think you're already like each minute is.

[802] a minute and each day is a day and I don't know well I would go further and say that I've probably already hundreds and hundreds of times valued something more than my life yeah yeah so I think there is some kind of muscle memory of like I've already made a decision that was terrible so many times where death was a potential outcome that yeah maybe it does something in that way yeah definitely I mean I think that I know you're not a god dude and I never was either I just use the word because it's the most universal, but it's self -will versus God's will or my higher powers will.

[803] And when I think about death or anything, this is beyond my control.

[804] And I'm constantly kind of having to come back to that working a program of like, yo, this dude's an asshole, like I hate the way that he's communicating with me. Okay, God grant me the serenity to except the things I cannot, you know, like I'm constantly in that practice and that is applicable throughout the most extreme cases in life in the most mundane things on a daily basis.

[805] Yeah.

[806] But that's what I think that's what I mean.

[807] You guys are more practiced in that in relinquishing control, understanding you don't have any.

[808] Right.

[809] Where the rest of us are like trying desperately to have control all the time.

[810] That's a great point.

[811] Yeah, you haven't like ever been demonstrated to have completely lost control.

[812] Yeah.

[813] Yeah.

[814] You have the illusion of control.

[815] Even though none of have it.

[816] Yeah, that's a good point.

[817] Yeah.

[818] To feel completely like oh someone else is driving in the fucking car right and husband for two and a half years is a very unique feeling yes Monica did you do drugs no I forced her to do mushrooms yeah like last year that's not a drug that's a spiritual spirit come on I was really against that too and then he peer pressured me and I did last year do shrooms but no I I haven't done any like really hard I drink and I've smoked weed a little, but barely, and that's it.

[819] This is the thing that I'm curious about as someone that's barely done anything who loves an addict and found yourself in the middle of some shit.

[820] The disease of addiction, it is a disease.

[821] It is a disease.

[822] But there is this, I think, feeling with people that don't have the disease, like, similar to any other thing, like an overeatier type of thing or obesity.

[823] You're like, why don't you just stop?

[824] Why don't you just not go to McDonald's?

[825] Why don't you just not order the extra large Coke?

[826] Or, you know, why don't you just quit doing the drugs?

[827] Did you have that feeling at all around the relapse?

[828] I think by then I knew that there wasn't a choice.

[829] And that was so scary.

[830] Maybe like before I knew him, I would have probably thought that.

[831] Like, why can't you just have moderation?

[832] But knowing him, I think, has shown me. There's just no option here.

[833] If it's there...

[834] He wants it.

[835] And we have other addict friends as well.

[836] And I see it in them, too.

[837] Oh, yeah, the sugar is there.

[838] It's going to be consumed.

[839] There's no question.

[840] It either has to not be here.

[841] Right.

[842] The asking them to moderate is just not going to happen.

[843] So I didn't.

[844] I also think for me personally, I have no, like, addictions that will cause me great pain or anything.

[845] But I have some tendencies towards obsession, towards things like, so I can understand.

[846] understand it to a tiny extent, I think.

[847] Right, you can relate to being powerless over your thoughts.

[848] Like, our thoughts just happen to be about that thing to take.

[849] So you've experienced, like, I can't tell this brain to stop thinking about that.

[850] Yeah.

[851] It doesn't work.

[852] Yeah, for me, I've never, like, wished he would not take it.

[853] I just wish he didn't have to.

[854] You know, like, I just wish that wasn't part of the chemistry that, but it's also made him who he is.

[855] It's all interwoven.

[856] I also understand that.

[857] You get the good with the bad.

[858] And also, I think that, again, kind of a recovery cliche is that you didn't lose your 16 years.

[859] And, I mean, I think you say it in that episode.

[860] And I think that that's something that's been really something for me to come back to is like, look, I've been in and out of the rooms for 11 years.

[861] I don't know how much time I have today, seven, eight months.

[862] I don't really count anymore.

[863] I've spent most of the last 11 years in recovery.

[864] Yeah, yeah.

[865] And it's made me who I am.

[866] And yes, there's been periods of my life in these last 11 years that are really dark that have caused my wife a lot of pain, that have caused people that love me a lot of pain, a lot of worry.

[867] I've compromised my life and other people around me. I've done things that I'm not proud of.

[868] But I do have that foundational level of 10 years of recovery.

[869] Yeah, yeah.

[870] And I'm fucking proud of that.

[871] For sure.

[872] Yeah, you should be.

[873] Yeah, like if nothing else, like 11 years of...

[874] taking some action to be a better person right and we're not always better people like some it works some days right yeah it's tricky it's funny you'd say that you're not counting because i did journal every morning and it occurred to me i was like oh was at 180 days and then that night i was in my home group meeting and i literally was like do i say this like they said any you know anyone got three months i got six months and i was like i don't know if i ever want to get in love with that thing again yeah i do want continuous sobriety for the rest of my life but i don't know that I ever want to get in love with it so that I can't tell the little weird thing I did.

[875] Right.

[876] Because I can't do that again where I have the little secrets that I, that turn into big fucking secrets.

[877] Mm -hmm.

[878] Okay, so that was awesome.

[879] That was so fun.

[880] I also really quick, this is kind of tangential, but you've said twice, you've equated artistic abilities and narcissism twice.

[881] And I'm curious about that.

[882] Do you think you get one with the other?

[883] I noticed I did it twice, too.

[884] No, I felt like too much.

[885] No, I was going to bring it up that to the first time.

[886] It felt like too much.

[887] The second time I was like, oh, God, why?

[888] Pick a different word.

[889] No. I think it's probably true.

[890] Really showing who I am here.

[891] You know, I think that as an artist, all eyes are on you all the time.

[892] Yeah.

[893] You're doing shows.

[894] You're in front of tens of thousands of people.

[895] You have a whole team around you that's kind of catering and making sure that everything runs smoothly and everything is supporting this vision that you go out and you have the microphone and you greet the people and that's the touring schedule.

[896] When you're in the studio, you're thinking about the album that you're going to make to be able to go do that, the rollout as we talked about.

[897] Your decision generally carries the most weight.

[898] Yes.

[899] And that's why it's super important for me to have the balance.

[900] I think that you were trying to pivot away from recovery and I'm not trying to go back there, but I will say...

[901] I just want to make sure you get to promote stuff.

[902] That's all.

[903] I was just trying to be...

[904] Yeah, no, but I do think that that is where the service component and getting outside of self is so important.

[905] Yeah.

[906] When I am only thinking about me, that's a dangerous place for me. Last week, I was driving.

[907] I've started to play golf.

[908] I'm obsessed with it.

[909] My addiction is completely transferred to this random sport.

[910] I would have never thought that I would ever end up playing.

[911] And I'm driving to it.

[912] It's a beautiful day in Seattle, which means it's like 40 degrees, and it's sunny.

[913] There's only a hundred clouds in the sky.

[914] I counted.

[915] And I'm driving there and I'm like, fuck, dude, why am I not happy right now?

[916] What's going on?

[917] I have a Detroit NA meeting that I listen to, turn that on, listen for like five minutes.

[918] I'm like, ah, this isn't doing it right now.

[919] You know, like, this isn't it.

[920] And I called a buddy of mine that I know is struggling and trying to put together some days.

[921] And it was like, oh, I can call him.

[922] And I called him.

[923] And we had one of those like five, seven minute conversations just, heart to heart about the disease of addiction and what's going on, that language that we understand, that addict to addict thing that you're like, oh, yes, someone gets me in this world.

[924] Someone knows exactly how I feel right now.

[925] And I got off that phone call.

[926] It was like the best thing that I've done in the week.

[927] And I'm like, that's all it took was for me to have that personal experience with this dude.

[928] I wasn't just thinking about the round that I was about to go shoot or like the next time I'm going to be in the studio or the clothing line or anything.

[929] It was just like let me just be present with another attic and i felt some relief from the bondage of self yeah yeah yeah thank you yes let me work this program that has been laid out so simply for me because i wake up in the morning and i think about what do i want yeah yeah even though i have two little kids that are like i need some cereal yeah oh same same same i get like a visceral memory of the many times of call people in that situation and for me what happens is like i'll listen to somebody who's just completely spun out about absolutely nothing right they'll go through the and then my wife like she said are you going to put your cereal bowl in the sink but and now it's like fucking life's over and i just love hearing it because that is me and then i just start laughing at myself like oh my god we can just destroy anything in our heads and it's there's so much comfort and listening to someone else do it and then i just start laughing at myself completely it just it gives immediate perspective and makes life seem just small yeah we're not here for that long it seems like a long game it's really pretty fucking short yeah and it can be simple we're just monkeys trying to stay busy till we die is what i say that's what the aliens see when they look now no no it's just a bunch of monkeys trying to stay busy stay tuned for more armchair expert if you dare okay so this golf thing You are not the first sober person I've known who's completely gone crazy with golf.

[930] And in fact, I've turned down invitations from my friend Charlie and Ryan because I have a hunch I probably would become nutcase about it.

[931] Oh, you would.

[932] Yeah.

[933] How did it happen?

[934] I was on vacation and got peer pressured.

[935] It was the day after Thanksgiving, there was nothing to do on the sleepy island of Kauai.

[936] And I decided, you know, and I'll go out with you guys.

[937] And I hit a bunch of houses and then finally hit a good golf ball out of a sand.

[938] trap and was just like, oh my God, what was that?

[939] And it's this dopamine hit of like, I need to do that again.

[940] Yeah.

[941] I can do it and I need to do it again.

[942] It's so similar to drugs because when I'm doing drugs, I'm chasing six or seven memories I have of when it felt perfect.

[943] Right.

[944] The best nights.

[945] Yeah, I got completely into it.

[946] And shortly after realized that the golf clothing world is pretty boring, to say the least.

[947] And I'm going back and I'm looking at like these old golfers from the 80s, the 70s, and I'm like, yo, what happened to these dudes?

[948] Right.

[949] Like, you're Arnie Palmer's and stuff?

[950] Yeah, these guys had style, Chi Chi Adriguez, Arnold Palmer.

[951] Like, Payne Stewart, these guys had real style and now everyone looks like they're selling insurance.

[952] And shout out to all the people out there that are selling insurance, but, you know, we could do better in terms of outfits.

[953] Uh -huh.

[954] I've always wanted to do something on the apparel side.

[955] I'm tired of like just slapping McLemore on a t -shirt and that doesn't really fulfill the creative aspirations in terms of design and got a team together some guys from down here that had pitched me on something earlier and was like hey you guys still around I got this idea yeah and it turned into bogey boys what is the process because I'm so curious you sit down with like a designer do you look at like a million different samples how do you begin curating that's a good question and yes both those a guy down here named Nick Guzman who's turned into a good friend the whole team kind of down here has they've been awesome him and I started to work together we and I go through Etsy a lot of this happened in COVID so I'm like I can't go shop right now like I got an eBay account every day it's like Christmas in my house he's like smoke stained cardigans are coming in the door when kids are like who are you we would go through getting inspirations he would kind of design I'd be over his shoulder say do this do that throw stuff out And then we send it off, get samples back, be like, oh, no, this is not it, or yes, this is it.

[956] And that process continued for about over a year until we launched a month and a half ago.

[957] It's so fun.

[958] Yeah, I'm literally thinking about how pumped I would be if, when I went into my closet, it was all shit that I had already decided was my favorite.

[959] Right.

[960] Do you love that?

[961] It's amazing.

[962] What do you guys make, bottoms, tops?

[963] We do make bottoms, which was a complete shit show.

[964] Like making pants.

[965] Like you're...

[966] How tall?

[967] Today I feel like 6 .3.

[968] Between 6 -2 and 6 -3.

[969] 6 -2 -6 -3.

[970] So you would be like right on the cusp of our pant, probably not working.

[971] Okay.

[972] You can lose me as a buyer segment.

[973] I think we're only like 1 % of the population.

[974] Because unless you're Levi's and you're like, okay, we're going to make all these different links.

[975] Right.

[976] We basically have to keep it with one length.

[977] So this has to fit like 5, 8 to like 6.

[978] too.

[979] Well, I'm a 32 -inch insane, so I'm good to go probably, right?

[980] It's a cropped pant.

[981] Okay.

[982] You might be able to pull it off.

[983] You're right on the verge of our pants not working for you.

[984] That's fantastic.

[985] Probably Monica Zhu.

[986] She's probably on the two small end and I might be on the two big end.

[987] Five feet.

[988] Not even close.

[989] Yeah, I'm not going to make the feet.

[990] You can cut them off and turn them in the shorts.

[991] Yeah, exactly.

[992] Yeah.

[993] Oh, I love doing that.

[994] It is a lot of fun.

[995] And to see people out.

[996] out there and taking videos and pictures and tagging us and all that in the clothing.

[997] It's just awesome.

[998] I mean, this is the dream that I didn't know that I had.

[999] It's kind of a good fit for you in what little I know about your style, but you already have had very eclectic weird style, which isn't necessarily suitable for like the workplace.

[1000] Right.

[1001] But a golf course, fuck go bananas.

[1002] Yeah, I mean, it sounds so cliche to even say this.

[1003] But when I was 17 years old, I was going to art school in Brooklyn called Pratt.

[1004] Oh, yeah, yeah.

[1005] And I was, very reputable.

[1006] Yeah, it was like a month -long program.

[1007] My parents were like, okay, you were going to kill yourself in Seattle.

[1008] We're going to send you to Brooklyn, which was a horrible idea in hindsight, but I had a hell of a summer.

[1009] Still trying to chase those highs.

[1010] Sure.

[1011] And I would go out to the thrift shops, and I would get, like, old golf outfits, and I would call myself Professor McLemore.

[1012] Oh, that's where it started.

[1013] So here we are.

[1014] Wow, full circle.

[1015] Full circle moment.

[1016] Almost like an eye roll of a moment.

[1017] But yes, full circle moment, and I'm making plaid pants, and I dropped the professor.

[1018] I love it.

[1019] But, again, there's a very safe space to get wild.

[1020] Yeah.

[1021] If you want to take a big swing.

[1022] Yeah, I think, absolutely.

[1023] I think that there's, like, the real quirky, wonky brands that are, like, almost too much.

[1024] Like, let's just throw every single color in the palette.

[1025] Like an AJ Cheers kind of a novelty shop, like a joke.

[1026] I don't know what that means.

[1027] You don't know what AJ Cheers is?

[1028] Do you know what AJ Cheers is?

[1029] I don't either.

[1030] Oh, it was like where you would go and get novelty, I don't know.

[1031] Like jokey items.

[1032] Like, jokey items.

[1033] Spencer's Gifts.

[1034] There we go.

[1035] Spencer's Gifts.

[1036] I don't know where I've been shopping.

[1037] So there's that.

[1038] And then there's just this straight up, like we have blue, we have navy, we have another shade of blue, black and gray and white, and these are our only color options.

[1039] I'm going to agree with you.

[1040] We were very into the Tiger Woods documentary.

[1041] Did you see it?

[1042] Yes.

[1043] I loved it.

[1044] God, did I love it.

[1045] I don't even care about golf, but you cannot not be blown away by his ability.

[1046] But I'm going to go.

[1047] going, black Nike shirt, black slacks, black, that's what we're doing?

[1048] Like, if I was there, I feel like I would have a little flair.

[1049] There's reasons for this.

[1050] There's sponsorships, and they give you the clothing to wear.

[1051] And golf has been historically a boring old white dude sport.

[1052] Yeah.

[1053] Like, and there's the gatekeepers that would like to keep it that way, and you need the collared polo and the khakis and all that.

[1054] Now, I remember watching a real sports like six years ago.

[1055] I don't know if this is still the trend, but golfing was just plummeting as a sport, right?

[1056] There was even in this real sports thing, there were like courses that had opened up where on the green it was like 12 inches of the fucking cup.

[1057] They're like, oh, what people hate is how hard putting is.

[1058] Let's try it.

[1059] Like they were throwing the kitchen sink at revitalizing it.

[1060] Has that corrected at all?

[1061] I think golf is the most popular that it's ever been right now.

[1062] No. Oh, my God, it completely rebounded.

[1063] Yes.

[1064] Oh, wow.

[1065] COVID has done wonders for golf.

[1066] Oh, that makes sense.

[1067] You have top golf, which is like an arcade for golf.

[1068] You go out and you hit it in a certain area of the driving range, and it's all colorful and lit up, and anyone can go and get drunk and do it.

[1069] There's all these different ways that the game is expanding.

[1070] I think it's funny yesterday.

[1071] I like some golf Instagram account that I follow posted.

[1072] Kim Kardashian.

[1073] Chris Jenner bought all of the Kardashians, their own.

[1074] golf bag with their name on it like and of course like that's some random like outlier thing but i think that it's indicative of what's happening there's a resurgence here and it's probably going further than it ever has i think the addictive nature of the sport is being felt by more people obviously we need to open up the gatekeepers and the old white dudes that are still holding on at these country clubs and we need to make this thing accessible for all people right that needs to happen it's still really expensive it's still expensive to own clubs and that's that is happening it's just a process yeah uh -huh but yes golf is very popular right now that makes sense because just the fact that Charlie and Ryan are so into it and they only do things that are really popular that's true they're so young dude you would you would love it but don't do it unless you just want to create a new passion that takes five hours well what I always tell my friends when they invite me like hey guess what my wife is not saying yes to me going like hey honey I'm going go Saturday for five hours somewhere.

[1075] This is not happening in my household.

[1076] Well, unless you then say, okay, I'm back and now you go somewhere for five hours.

[1077] She would do a trade -off.

[1078] Okay.

[1079] Maybe that would work.

[1080] All right.

[1081] I have a hunch that when I start doing it, I'll be a psycho for...

[1082] Well, that's true.

[1083] You'll want to do it every day.

[1084] And it's not just once a week either.

[1085] But I'm not there yet, but it's on the table that I might stop doing track days on the motorcycle.

[1086] I'm just, I'm having conversations with other older guys that I ride with.

[1087] Yeah.

[1088] Have we already one hero status?

[1089] Is it, can we just, like, we're all alive?

[1090] Should we just stop now?

[1091] But I'm not there yet, but something's going to have to replace that.

[1092] So maybe...

[1093] You're going to stop doing track days, and then you're going to get hit in the head with a golf ball.

[1094] I die.

[1095] Or crash a golf car.

[1096] I think probably more people die in golf cart accidents than one would think.

[1097] I bought an electric bike in COVID.

[1098] Yeah?

[1099] Rode it one time.

[1100] And I bought, like, the $10 ,000.

[1101] Of course.

[1102] Sure.

[1103] Yes, yes.

[1104] I shouldn't just said that out loud, but I did.

[1105] It's like Batman's fucking electric bike.

[1106] It's like all matted out.

[1107] It's beautiful.

[1108] Then the golf course is open back up, and I was like, you know what?

[1109] I'm good.

[1110] And I got the trailer for the kids and everything.

[1111] We literally rode around the block one time.

[1112] I'll push them in the trailer every once in a while, but I sold the motorcycles.

[1113] Oh, you do?

[1114] Yeah.

[1115] Oh, that's great.

[1116] No, I sold them.

[1117] Oh, you sold them?

[1118] I thought you said I still have.

[1119] No. Uh -oh.

[1120] My wife is finally like, dude, these are.

[1121] We need to get rid of these.

[1122] Uh -huh.

[1123] What kind did you have?

[1124] I had a Harley and a Dukadi.

[1125] Yeah.

[1126] But the Harley was great.

[1127] Yeah, I like a Dukadi.

[1128] Yeah.

[1129] I had a Harley for years.

[1130] I do all these things where they're my passion and I look around.

[1131] I'm like, it's weird because this isn't my tribe of people.

[1132] Yeah.

[1133] But I'm really.

[1134] Yeah.

[1135] Exactly.

[1136] I'm like, God, I love this thing, but everyone here is really hates immigrants.

[1137] Like, I don't.

[1138] Shit.

[1139] Why is it that we both love off -roading, but you hate immigrants?

[1140] I don't know.

[1141] I'm always in that situation.

[1142] Well, change their minds, but...

[1143] Yeah, exactly.

[1144] Listen, I gotta say this.

[1145] This is gonna be difficult to say, but I was very excited to sit and interview you, because we were both on Kimmel and we had a good time.

[1146] We were guessing the names of objects.

[1147] And it was really, really fun.

[1148] You were a super nice guy.

[1149] And then I told a few people I was interviewing you today, and I was excited.

[1150] And one or two of them said, like, are people like, Like, do they hate on him for something?

[1151] I was like, I don't know, do they?

[1152] I'm so out of the music world and who hates who.

[1153] And then so in my research of you, I was trying to find, like, is there an issue?

[1154] What is the issue?

[1155] Yeah.

[1156] And I came away very unclear with what the issue was.

[1157] I think it seemed maybe some people just generally are upset that musically, this is a space that should be for black folks only.

[1158] Is this too dicey to talk about?

[1159] No, it's not at all.

[1160] I don't know if it's that clear cut.

[1161] Okay.

[1162] It has been a long, I mean...

[1163] This is a three -hour conversation for sure.

[1164] And we don't have to have it, but I want to acknowledge that I heard that.

[1165] Mind you, when I asked both of these people, like, well, what are people mad about?

[1166] I don't know.

[1167] I just, I think that's a thing.

[1168] And I'm like, about what?

[1169] And it made me think, like, I know that about people, right?

[1170] Like, oh, here, so -and -so's got a thing.

[1171] What would they do?

[1172] I don't know.

[1173] And I'm like, oh, this is dicey.

[1174] right we all know they have a thing but no one knows what the thing is like completely completely well i think that if you look at white artists in the hip -hop space in historically black culture and music that came from a struggle that i have never experienced i think that there's always a conversation around what is the role of the white rapper within hip -hop culture yeah and everything was okay Everything was like, okay, he knows where he's come from, he pays respect to the elders and the OGs, and he understands his place, and he's dope, he's good at what he does, yada, yada, yada, everything was okay.

[1175] The minute did it turn into this thing that we didn't have control over anymore.

[1176] It was that big.

[1177] This is you winning a Grammy over Kendrick Lamar.

[1178] And it was even before then, it was like this roller coaster just kept going up and up and up and we just kept winning shit and everything was all good.

[1179] And then it was the Grammys.

[1180] mind you I'm coming off of like active addiction I like just detoxed enough to be able to like go to the Grammys and talk about fear because I just saw the episode playing out in this conversation around cultural appropriation and white privilege and things that I've talked about in music for a long time but are now getting like really brought to the forefront of a conversation around race and hip hop in whiteness and appropriation in hip -hop, which is good.

[1181] Like, we should be having those conversations.

[1182] I think that it becomes difficult when you're, like, the poster child for that.

[1183] Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

[1184] And you're feeling that heat.

[1185] And again, I'm in a place of fear.

[1186] And we're going into the Grammys, and I'm not clean.

[1187] And it happened really quickly, as these things do.

[1188] Like, we're backstage, and this time, they don't announce, like, best rap song, best album, best whatever other Grammy I won the three of them before the show those three rap ones they don't announce those live in 2013 or 14 or whatever it was so like it was like boom someone comes in and is like yo you won three of the rap oh you find out all at once backstage all at once and it seems like a weird way to do it yes yes at the time the Grammys didn't think that the hip -hop category deserved to be on television Oh, okay.

[1189] In the same way.

[1190] Okay.

[1191] So, and then we won Best New Artist.

[1192] And I remember feeling like, oh, shit, we won all of them.

[1193] Like, I wanted to win.

[1194] Sure, sure.

[1195] I felt like I deserved to win, some.

[1196] But I felt like Kendrick should have won the best rap album.

[1197] As, like, a rap fan is, like, as objective as I can possibly be, I feel like Kendrick should have won that category.

[1198] Yeah.

[1199] Yeah, because you know, right, like, Bradley Cooper is a better actor than me. Maybe it's so like in that movie versus I don't think you can say blanketly about anybody.

[1200] He's probably a better dramatic actor than me. But it's open for interpretation and not everyone won't think that.

[1201] There's a lot of people that would disagree even looking back now and I'm like, look at what the heist did and Good Kid Mad City.

[1202] They're like very different albums.

[1203] I mean, we're comparing art. Like there's a problem with in general of awarding shit, period.

[1204] Yeah, I don't like it at all.

[1205] And award shows are fucked and they're so political.

[1206] What they are is a night of television That is sold for ads Yes they are a product absolutely They only exist for that night of ads Which is millions of dollars in ads And if you look at it like that And a very skewed Grammy committee That decides what wins and what doesn't win I think what was an interesting thing About the whole experience is that Again you're looking at Whiteness winning in a black genre.

[1207] This is like systemic racism.

[1208] There's a reason why thrift shop ends up on the radio.

[1209] There's a reason why parents feel like it's safe to play for their kids.

[1210] It's a reason why I'm getting hired to do this show and that show and show up at this birthday party even though I'm cussing my ass off because I look like them.

[1211] And I'm safe.

[1212] So there's a bigger systemic racism current than just like, oh, he's shouldn't have won.

[1213] There's something a lot bigger going on.

[1214] More important.

[1215] Yes.

[1216] And we're talking about the internet here.

[1217] Some people are just like, oh, he should have won, he's trash.

[1218] But like this is literally, we're talking about why things become popular, why things are safe, why things are successful.

[1219] And a long, long lineage of things that are white having a push that other things don't get at a pop culture level.

[1220] And And anyway, to answer your question, I think I handled it poorly with posting the text that I sent to Kendrick after.

[1221] I'm completely like in again a fear place.

[1222] I'm high.

[1223] I relapsed again that night.

[1224] You're making great decisions that started hours before.

[1225] Let's kick this year off right.

[1226] It's shocking how many bad decisions come after the first bad decision.

[1227] Oh my God.

[1228] And that roller coaster was just like, boo.

[1229] Yeah.

[1230] And probably fear also, I would imagine, of like, fuck.

[1231] I can't write another album like that.

[1232] I'm not going to be able to replicate this.

[1233] No. And I think the next one we were, I listened to it the other day for the first time in years.

[1234] And I was like, you know, it wasn't as bad as I thought it was at the time.

[1235] But it, like, you know, wasn't so successful as the first one.

[1236] Like, it's actually pretty good.

[1237] But, like, there was a lot of fear.

[1238] And once I started the creative process of the next album, I kind of shook it.

[1239] But, yeah, there was absolutely residual trauma from that whole experience.

[1240] And it took me some time to really work through it.

[1241] The thing that I love that came from the process is it got me closer to what we started this conversation talking about, which is making art for the sake of art with as little expectations as possible, knowing that I am never going to appease everyone.

[1242] Yeah.

[1243] It's not possible.

[1244] And that if I go out there with that intent, I'm going to be bummed out every single time.

[1245] And I finally got with this last album that I made in the music sense, I got to a point of like, I just want to have fun in the studio.

[1246] I want to capture those moments and the last album was really successful it wasn't like two diamond songs off the high successful and to be completely honest I don't really know if I would want to go back to that place I like my life now yeah it's like Eddie Vedder's experience like he's happier doing what he does right and he still like goes out and kills and it makes great art but he can like walk through the airport yeah really quick I think it's awesome your perspective on it because you're right there is this enormous machine that is our society that benefits you in all those ways you just said one thing i'll push back on a little bit though is that so when i worked out today i listened to your essentials playlist on apple i'm hearing you tell your story right like thrift shop you're fucking into going i mean this you're not act like you're from the hood or that you were selling birds on the fucking right sidewalk and then you've got the same love song which is clearly in support of gay marriage none of this stuff is posary you're not trying to purport that you're like from the hood or anything no so in that way i disagree a little bit with the criticism some of the criticism i read but i got to say ultimately i have to tell you this because i pray you never go read anything on the internet as i don't about myself but i was reading stuff about you on the internet and when i would type in why do people dislike macamore someone would write i think he blah blah blah whatever it would be i promise you every single message board i went to the six or seven follow -up questions were like i'm not defending i'm not in or not but i saw him at blank festival and he was fucking awesome i saw him at the every single thread that i tried to go down ultimately had people talking about how much they love seeing you live that's literally what the takeaway for me was i was oh no one's no one really knows why there's an issue and everyone that's way that's way in is like I saw him here and he's fucking awesome and I'm going to see him again.

[1247] Yeah.

[1248] So I would imagine I hope you know that yeah, we're in the show up and work business not the results business and you just go out and play and people fucking love to want you play.

[1249] Yeah.

[1250] And that's where it ends.

[1251] I appreciate that and I feel that.

[1252] And I think that what came from all of that Grammy controversy and reaction was this notion that like I didn't feel like I deserved it and there was this like guilt and again we're talking about one category i think that what it boils back down to is like i'm good at what i do yeah i've worked really fucking hard i know how to write a record yeah i know how to tap into that thing you've been doing it for 24 years yeah i've been doing it for a really long time this isn't like i think a lesser of myself thing yeah that whole narrative thing on the internet that's not reality and that's not my reality yeah yeah i don't believe that and the people that think that I'm a fucking god that's not a reality either yeah like neither one of those are real right i am who i am who i am today i am who i am as an artist i am who i am as a dad as a partner as a person sitting on this couch in this pocket like this is what's real these tangible things i cannot let outside public perceptions skew me to be lesser than or higher than how i actually feel about myself today and that's that self -love and that comes with doing this fucking work these steps in the recovery and all of that it all feeds into the same thing and then all of a sudden i'm like you know what i'm doing pretty fucking good we're lucky enough that we can all co -pilot each other because there's christin there's me there's monica we all step in it like we've had the anti -vaxxers against us i've had diabetics hate my guts because of a joke monico reads something that she's a bitch on the comments right and all of us get to co -pilot each other and go like find one person in your life that you know that knows you and see if they have that opinion if they do you have a problem right like if the people that know you and are in your life have this issue then it's an issue but i would challenge anyone that we know to say you're a bitch i don't think that exists right or that i am a big pharma shill yeah no one that knows me thinks i'm a big pharma shill and so on but it is helpful that we're not alone in these moments where you need to be reminded of that i need to be reminded of yeah i remember reading a review of the album after the heist this unruly mess i made and it was a review from USA today and it was zero out of five stars and um it was that moment it was like a freedom moment for me i was like a freedom moment for me i was like okay, I don't ever have to read this shit again and anything that anyone says is bullshit everyone is bringing all their own baggage and their own issues and it's just like anything it's like everyone brings their entire life behind them into judging some other piece of art that somebody else made go ahead like have your space on the internet and your YouTube comments whatever it is that you need to get out go ahead I'm going to continue to do what I love which i feel so grateful that i get to do this thing yeah yeah that like this has always been the dream i'm going to continue to do that to the best of my ability that's all i can control and everyone else absolutely continue to talk shit or to praise or to love or whatever it is that you do on the internet go go go do it yeah speak loudly in all caps helvetica go i've had two experiences where first and foremost i would have never done it about myself because that would have been too self -serving but i read a bad review of the kingsman part two and the manner in which they reviewed this movie i got really indignant and i was like you know there's no fucking integrity within art review because in a car magazine which i read all of them they got to review a honda accord right no automotive journalist wants to drive a honda accord there's nothing sexy about a honda accord and they'll say it's boring looking and blah blah blah but they will also say honda a perfect car this thing's going to last 300 ,000 miles yeah everything works on it it's simple like they acknowledge what makes a good or bad car yes and what pisses me off reading the kingsman is like if you know anything about movies you have to at least see the accomplishment both technologically in the performances in the transitions in the music like yes it is mechanically a very well -made movie now it might not be for you that might not be your tone or your sensibility that's fine but you should have enough integrity to acknowledge it was a well -made movie.

[1253] Yes.

[1254] It's just the notion that you would get zero out of five stars is impossible.

[1255] It's not the first time you picked up a banjo.

[1256] Right.

[1257] So I had that.

[1258] I've had that opinion at times and I want to go on the offensive.

[1259] But then another thing happened where I was reading this review of who's our favorite writer, newsroom?

[1260] Oh, Aaron Sorkin.

[1261] It was a review of something Aaron Sorkin had written, right?

[1262] And it was just taking him to take him to take him.

[1263] task as if he was the world's worst writer.

[1264] And I thought, oh, if that's happening to Aaron Sorgan, I can't ever be upset.

[1265] People don't think my shit's got.

[1266] Like, here's a guy who's probably the best writer in that space for the last 15, 20 years.

[1267] Yeah.

[1268] And someone thinks he's a terrible writer, not just that they didn't like it, but he's the best.

[1269] He's a bad writer.

[1270] And I was like, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh.

[1271] They never even think about it again.

[1272] Yeah.

[1273] Someone's saying Aaron Sorkin sucks, and he's much more talented than I am.

[1274] So I just got to get over it Right, there's no reason to waste time and energy on it And everyone gets it That's the other thing about it There are so few famous people That just come through like unscaden their entire career Of like not getting...

[1275] Tom Hanks and he's gonna kill somebody I'm sure he did I'm sure he did I mean you'd probably say that about Kristen right Yeah, yeah Kristen's unsaid But she's not she's had things And they come and they go and you forget and it's fine I mean frozen two flies like it's just no one saw it she was off key the entire movie i give it zero out of five for singing yeah everyone gets it and i think that you develop thicker skin and you keep making art and those that don't the thing is like there's this notion that people aren't people once they become it's like it's everyone's open season fire away like say whatever you want about these people like we're artists like people are sensitive oh yeah i'm super sensitive yeah thank god I developed some, like, tools to deal with this shit.

[1276] And I stopped Google searching my name.

[1277] Yeah, yeah.

[1278] And then there's always the people in your life, too, they're like, dude, I saw what done and I said about you.

[1279] Like, what the fuck?

[1280] And I'm like, damn it, I didn't see.

[1281] I didn't see that.

[1282] There's a reason now.

[1283] I'm like, dude, just leave that alone.

[1284] I don't want that.

[1285] You don't need to tell me when people light me up.

[1286] I'll be fine if I don't know that.

[1287] Please keep it away.

[1288] Well, listen, Ben, you're fucking awesome.

[1289] This was really, really fun.

[1290] So fun.

[1291] People who are new to golf, thinking about golf, they should go check out bogey boys.

[1292] Do you have a website?

[1293] Yeah, bogeyboys .com.

[1294] You got it?

[1295] Yeah.

[1296] Did you have to buy it off someone?

[1297] I think we did.

[1298] Okay.

[1299] Bogey Boys .com.

[1300] We got to get our boys some bogey boys.

[1301] Oh, my God.

[1302] Yeah, we got to get Charlie and right.

[1303] I brought you a shirt.

[1304] Oh, you did?

[1305] Yeah.

[1306] Oh, good.

[1307] I'll wear it just for fun, even if I'm not golfing.

[1308] It's a lifestyle thing, too.

[1309] It's not like just golf only by any means.

[1310] If you're in the court.

[1311] Wear it life.

[1312] The clergy.

[1313] Anything.

[1314] Yeah.

[1315] You're a boxer.

[1316] Wear it in your next match.

[1317] All that.

[1318] But yeah, Ryan.

[1319] Yeah, we'll get our guys outfitted.

[1320] All right.

[1321] Well, Benjamin, it was fucking awesome.

[1322] Yeah, thank you guys so much.

[1323] Yeah, so fun.

[1324] All right.

[1325] And now my favorite part of the show, the fact check with my soulmate Monica Padman.

[1326] Hello.

[1327] Hello.

[1328] This is a ding, ding, ding.

[1329] What?

[1330] Because McElmore, he lives in Seattle.

[1331] Yeah.

[1332] And you just came home from Seattle.

[1333] I've just returned from Seattle.

[1334] I was there forever.

[1335] Oh, my gosh.

[1336] I just remember that I asked you to buy me a mug, and you did.

[1337] And I got to pick it up.

[1338] When we did a live show there with Dan Savage, why didn't you get one then?

[1339] I was going to get it at the airport, but we were in a big rush.

[1340] Oh, right, right, right.

[1341] So I didn't end up getting it.

[1342] This is a Starbucks mug.

[1343] I love mugs.

[1344] I do too.

[1345] I specifically love Starbucks mugs because you can get a good -sized mug.

[1346] Yes, it's a great size.

[1347] I like to pour a lot of fluid in there.

[1348] Although they don't make the extra big ones I used to collect, which I wish they did.

[1349] Yeah, that was the best size.

[1350] Although, now that I'm drinking matcha, I don't require as much.

[1351] So I'm actually into the smaller mugs now.

[1352] It's a little, it's not as tall vertically.

[1353] Yeah.

[1354] I guess you don't have to say vertically when you say tall.

[1355] No one means why.

[1356] True, true, true.

[1357] But I had a big, well, it wasn't a huge decision to make.

[1358] But they had two different kinds there.

[1359] They had Washington, the state.

[1360] which is beautiful.

[1361] What a beautiful state.

[1362] You got the Cascade Mountains, I believe.

[1363] Are they the Cascades?

[1364] I hope that's right.

[1365] And the Puget Sound, what a place.

[1366] As I was telling you, when we took off yesterday, it was exactly at sunset.

[1367] I was looking at the west side of the airplane.

[1368] I could just see all the water join the Pacific.

[1369] It was incredible.

[1370] That's neither here nor there.

[1371] I didn't know whether to get you the Washington one or the Seattle one.

[1372] But then I decided Washington just wasn't specific enough for you.

[1373] And then you were relieved about that.

[1374] And you told me, you thought there'd be confusion.

[1375] Yeah, well, I had this exact same situation happen in Hawaii.

[1376] Yeah.

[1377] In Hawaii, there was a Hawaii mug.

[1378] Uh -huh.

[1379] There was a Waikiki mug.

[1380] Right.

[1381] I think we may be already told this story, but I'm happy to repeat it.

[1382] So.

[1383] And we weren't in either.

[1384] Well, we were in Hawaii.

[1385] We were in Hawaii.

[1386] But we weren't in Waikiki.

[1387] But I didn't know that.

[1388] I thought we were.

[1389] So I was in there and I was like, oh, shit.

[1390] I normally like to go more specific.

[1391] I should get the Waikiki.

[1392] But I went out on a limb.

[1393] went Hawaii.

[1394] I went broad.

[1395] It was a little prettier.

[1396] And then I was very happy to learn we weren't even in Waikiki.

[1397] Yeah, it was a big relief.

[1398] Yeah, if I got that mug, that would have been a huge disaster.

[1399] But I'm really glad you didn't listen to me when I told that story a lot of times because if you had listened, you would have gone Washington.

[1400] No, I did listen very closely to that story.

[1401] And I remember all the times you told it.

[1402] But I know you better than that story.

[1403] I knew that that story was anomalous.

[1404] It was.

[1405] It was.

[1406] Can you say anomalous?

[1407] It was an anomaly.

[1408] You can say analogous.

[1409] No, that means it's...

[1410] Oh, I know it's a completely different word, but you can say it.

[1411] Yeah.

[1412] Oh, we haven't given many recommendations lately, and I've found two diamonds.

[1413] Okay.

[1414] In the rough?

[1415] I guess you could call it.

[1416] I would call it more the haystack.

[1417] Oh.

[1418] Because there's so much content.

[1419] A couple diamonds in the haystack, is what I found.

[1420] Okay.

[1421] The Tina Turner Document.

[1422] Uh -huh.

[1423] Is incredible.

[1424] I've only watched a little bit of it, but I am loving it so far.

[1425] And I've heard great things.

[1426] This is a dumb thing to say, but I'm going to say it anyways.

[1427] Hearing her story made me embarrassed that I have had a hard time getting over some of my hurdles in life.

[1428] Because hers was so unbelievably challenging.

[1429] It's crazy.

[1430] Yeah.

[1431] It's heartbreaking.

[1432] Among the very most heartbreaking parts of it, you saw this part.

[1433] when she met Ike, she didn't think he would let her sing on stage with him because she wasn't pretty.

[1434] Yeah.

[1435] And she is so pretty.

[1436] I know.

[1437] I wanted to go back in time.

[1438] Oh, the time machine.

[1439] Yeah.

[1440] I want to.

[1441] I got so much to do.

[1442] You can add that to the list.

[1443] Yeah.

[1444] I did have that thought.

[1445] I was like, I want to go back in time and tell her how beautiful she is and that I love her.

[1446] Yeah.

[1447] And then I thought, is that a weird solution?

[1448] Yeah, it's weird.

[1449] Of course.

[1450] Of course it's weird.

[1451] Yeah.

[1452] I don't know what else you do.

[1453] I wonder if, no, she's beautiful.

[1454] You can do it.

[1455] It won't change her mind just because one person thinks that.

[1456] That's true.

[1457] Unfortunately.

[1458] I know.

[1459] It doesn't work that way.

[1460] Anyways, really good documentary.

[1461] What endurance, what dedication, what a hard worker.

[1462] What a fucking lightning bolt.

[1463] When she was young on stage.

[1464] Yeah.

[1465] There's nothing like it.

[1466] So, so special.

[1467] We'd love to have you on, Tina.

[1468] We sure would.

[1469] They say that, make you.

[1470] Jagger stole his dance moves from her.

[1471] You know, I don't know if that's true or not, but it seems likely when you see her dance.

[1472] Is her name but Tina?

[1473] No, her name isn't even Tina.

[1474] I gave her that name.

[1475] And then what's interesting is when they got divorced, she just gave them everything, but she said, I want my name.

[1476] Oh, my God.

[1477] And she made a industry out of it.

[1478] Ooh.

[1479] Yeah.

[1480] What's the second diamond in this in the haystack?

[1481] The Great.

[1482] The Great on Hulu about Catherine the Great.

[1483] I love the tagline when the episode starts.

[1484] It says occasionally true or something.

[1485] That's like Fargo's.

[1486] Right.

[1487] Well, Fargo's straight says it's a true story because the big gimmick is that it just occurred to them.

[1488] You can write based on a true story.

[1489] There's no legal ramification for you saying that.

[1490] Fargo's is for the TV show.

[1491] It says this is a true story, all caps, then regular caps.

[1492] Okay, back to regular caps.

[1493] The events depicted in this film took place in Minnesota in 2006.

[1494] At the request of the survivors, the names have been changed.

[1495] Out of respect for the dead, the rest has been told exactly as it occurred.

[1496] Uh -huh.

[1497] Yeah, and of course it's not true.

[1498] That's great.

[1499] Anyways, the great about Catherine the Great, and she arrives to marry her second cousin, who's the emperor of Russia.

[1500] And it's a satire, I guess you would call it, very unique tone.

[1501] They really go for it.

[1502] And I just love it.

[1503] I was super sad when I finished it in Seattle.

[1504] It has like what I would call a dark, edgy Wes Anderson vibe.

[1505] Sure.

[1506] Yeah, the sets are beautiful and everyone's foul and terrible.

[1507] Yeah.

[1508] Oh, I love it.

[1509] I just love it.

[1510] And then I found out a ding, ding, ding, which was the lead emperor was the child in the Hugh Grant about a boy movie.

[1511] Right.

[1512] And they look identical still.

[1513] Um, not to get nitpicky, but I don't think that's a ding, ding, ding.

[1514] Okay.

[1515] Because nothing about this episode has anything to do with about a boy who grabbed.

[1516] You're absolutely right.

[1517] I just, when I found that out, I thought in my head, ding, ding, ding.

[1518] Oh, sure.

[1519] Because like, oh my God, I know him.

[1520] You made a connection.

[1521] Yeah.

[1522] And I was like, oh gosh, how did I not see that?

[1523] It's so obvious.

[1524] I just, the ding, ding, ding is proprietary to this show.

[1525] It's novel and proprietary.

[1526] You're absolutely right.

[1527] And I didn't mean to misuse it.

[1528] Thank you.

[1529] Yeah.

[1530] McElmore.

[1531] Are you done with your needles?

[1532] I mean, your diamonds?

[1533] Yeah.

[1534] So, Ban, which is McElmore's real name.

[1535] Yeah.

[1536] Before he became Professor McElmore.

[1537] Yeah.

[1538] I just loved him.

[1539] I did too.

[1540] I really loved them.

[1541] I really enjoyed that conversation.

[1542] So fun to be back in the attic.

[1543] The vibe is so different.

[1544] It's outrageously different.

[1545] Just when you convince yourself like, oh, yeah, you're not losing anything on Zoom.

[1546] We're having great.

[1547] Then you do it in person.

[1548] And it is a, what's the best adjutant?

[1549] I mean, visceral, I overuse that word, but...

[1550] It's a seismic shift.

[1551] You're connected in a way that then time starts warping, which I always love.

[1552] Yep.

[1553] Yeah, just it's incredible.

[1554] Yeah.

[1555] I miss it so much once we did that.

[1556] Me too.

[1557] He was lovely, and he had a lot of, you know, again, what I kind of said in the intro, and we brought up a little bit is there's some feelings around him with some people that are, like, that are negative.

[1558] But no one really can articulate.

[1559] Why.

[1560] No one knows why.

[1561] And it was just lovely to sit across from him and have him be vulnerable and also weigh in on some of that.

[1562] I just, I really appreciated it.

[1563] Me too.

[1564] I'm glad we went right at it too.

[1565] Yeah.

[1566] Like, you know, what the fuck are people talking about?

[1567] Oh, also, and his wife was so lovely to Trisha.

[1568] In fact, Trisha forced him to come down.

[1569] Yeah.

[1570] To do it in person, thank God.

[1571] Yes.

[1572] We got into some facts.

[1573] You said you thought bikes were more dangerous than most.

[1574] motorcycles.

[1575] Bicycles are the most dangerous way to get around with the exception of motorcycles.

[1576] Bike riding is also about 500 times more fatal than riding in a bus.

[1577] Okay, so it's not great, but motorcycles are worse.

[1578] I'm going to let this go.

[1579] Okay.

[1580] I wonder if that's, I'm just...

[1581] Go ahead.

[1582] I wonder if that's total or per capita, because clearly more people ride motorcycles, right?

[1583] I don't know, probably not, because you have to have a license to ride a motorcycle.

[1584] Yeah.

[1585] And any old person can ride a bike.

[1586] That's true.

[1587] Where did the hipster movement start?

[1588] Ooh.

[1589] As hipsters, young creatives priced out of bohemian urban neighborhoods in Brooklyn, such as Williamsburg, Park Slope, and Greenpoint moved into suburbs in New York City.

[1590] The New York Times coined the neologism, hipsterbia to describe the hip lifestyles as lived in suburbia.

[1591] Interesting.

[1592] I want to guess there or San Francisco, I think.

[1593] Oh, I wrote this down probably because I just learned it when I was doing this edit that the Arklight has nothing to do with Macklemore, but the Arklight closed is closing.

[1594] The closest thing we had to a church.

[1595] Arklight is the movie theater here and it is an institution.

[1596] It is.

[1597] It is.

[1598] Well, people would recognize the Cinerama Dome.

[1599] always proudly displayed in any movie set in Hollywood, you're going to get a shot of the Cineramadome.

[1600] Yeah.

[1601] And Arc like operated the Cineramadome, but behind the Cineramadom was 13 beautiful theaters with the best sound, best popcorn in the business.

[1602] Oh, we would postmates it once.

[1603] That's how decadent we got.

[1604] And it's, my gosh, it's heartbreaking.

[1605] It's really rattled the L .A. community.

[1606] I know.

[1607] And I asked you if you would buy it for me that's right and i said i think that place is probably worth 30 million dollars the real state so is the sinorama dome also closing or can someone else like operate that well yeah i'm sure they're going to try to well they're going to sell it if they're going out of business now whether the people who buy it tear it down and build something different or they try to operate it i don't know it's i don't want to think about it okay i'm done thinking about it right you okay You can still buy it.

[1608] I can't buy it.

[1609] I don't have $30 million.

[1610] All chip in.

[1611] Okay.

[1612] I'm going to chip in $45.

[1613] All right.

[1614] Maybe.

[1615] Oh, my God.

[1616] I'm not even going to launch this plan.

[1617] I was going to say, maybe they could find like 20 other actors who love it.

[1618] I know.

[1619] Who's going to operate it?

[1620] I don't know how to fucking run a movie theater.

[1621] Are there even movies?

[1622] I don't even know what's going on.

[1623] I just love that place.

[1624] And that was probably the number one place I was most excited to return to.

[1625] Yeah.

[1626] When quarantine was over.

[1627] Oh.

[1628] It's really upsetting.

[1629] I don't know where I'll go to the movies.

[1630] I hate all the other theaters.

[1631] It's a bummer.

[1632] I mean, it is a desert other than our climate.

[1633] Well, the grove.

[1634] It's just far.

[1635] Too far for me. Yeah.

[1636] And then the city walk too busy for me. Okay, I guess we're not going to the movies anymore.

[1637] All right.

[1638] Okay, you said you were 6 -2, 6 .3.

[1639] Uh -huh.

[1640] Medium bill.

[1641] And you said that you think you're 1 % of the population.

[1642] So I was going to do a little high percentile calculator.

[1643] Oh, okay.

[1644] I'm going to stand by that number.

[1645] I got nervous since you've brought it up.

[1646] I'm like, oh, is it that much?

[1647] But yeah, I think I meet 100.

[1648] For every 100 people I mean, I think there's only one person that's taller than me on average.

[1649] Oh, it wants me to make this a kid.

[1650] This is a kid.

[1651] Well, I'm not a kid.

[1652] No. No, you're not.

[1653] Oh, my God.

[1654] All these are kids.

[1655] Okay.

[1656] Hold on.

[1657] Oh, boy.

[1658] Well, this didn't wear well for me. I found one if you want it.

[1659] This one says 14 .5 % of all men are six feet or over.

[1660] Yeah, that's no good.

[1661] This one says 3 .9 % are 62 or taller.

[1662] Among CEOs of Fortune 500 companies, that number is 58%.

[1663] That's of the 6 feet number.

[1664] Oh, six feet.

[1665] Okay.

[1666] Six feet are over.

[1667] That's 14 .5 % of all U .S. men, but that's 58 % of Fortune 500 CEOs.

[1668] Three X. And then, yeah, 3 .9 % of adult men.

[1669] are 6 -2 or taller.

[1670] It's called the necktie syndrome, why CEOs tend to be significantly taller than the average male.

[1671] I just assumed it was a confidence thing.

[1672] Like, you have such an advantage to be confident if you're towering over everyone.

[1673] Okay.

[1674] And you said you think more people die in golf cart accidents than one might think.

[1675] Yeah, I do think that.

[1676] So let's see.

[1677] That is a belief of mine.

[1678] Oh, fuck.

[1679] This proves my theory, man. Remember I always say that I'm going to die young because I'm tall and you never see tall grampies.

[1680] So 96 % of the population is below 6 .3 that are 18 to 24 years old.

[1681] 98 % below 6 .3, 25 to 34.

[1682] Right.

[1683] You see what's happening.

[1684] You get to 65 to 75 years old, 99 .9 % of the population's under 6 .3.

[1685] Okay.

[1686] Yeah, but that's also because they shrink.

[1687] I think it's because they die.

[1688] No, they shrink.

[1689] Okay.

[1690] Okay, golf carts.

[1691] Golf cart debts more common than thought.

[1692] By Dach Shepherd.

[1693] Over 15 ,000 accidents require a trip to the emergency room each year.

[1694] Wow.

[1695] These accidents are often more severe than a regular car crash.

[1696] Sure.

[1697] No seabelt.

[1698] Yeah.

[1699] No structure above you.

[1700] Ooh, children make up about 30 % of golf cart accident victims.

[1701] Oh, boy.

[1702] No, thank you.

[1703] All right.

[1704] We don't like that.

[1705] All right.

[1706] That's a sobering note to end on.

[1707] That's that?

[1708] I didn't find out about fatalities.

[1709] Let's assume it's low.

[1710] But at any rate, 15 ,000 injuries.

[1711] Yeah, that's a lot of people going down.

[1712] 15 ,000 emergency room.

[1713] That's pretty intense, you know.

[1714] All right.

[1715] I love you.

[1716] I'm so happy to be back from my voyage.

[1717] Me too.

[1718] You and Macomore switched.

[1719] We did.

[1720] Well, he flew back home and then I went up like two days later.

[1721] And there was an awkward moment when he was leaving because I think we both really liked each other.

[1722] That I was like, oh, I'm going up to Seattle in two days.

[1723] and he's like, oh, cool.

[1724] And I'm thinking, like, is one of us supposed to say, like, you want to get lunch or?

[1725] Oh, wow.

[1726] Okay, well, I would say the ball is in his court for that.

[1727] Yeah, it's his home, right?

[1728] Yeah, and he would say, oh, look, if you have any time, you should reach out and, like, really vague.

[1729] Yes.

[1730] And then I would have been like, oh, I'd love that.

[1731] I don't know any great restaurants.

[1732] Mind you, I found the most amazing steakhouse of all time.

[1733] Oh, yeah.

[1734] It was so delicious.

[1735] Robin Jethro and I went and it was orgasmic, like your medicine cabinet.

[1736] That's right.

[1737] Please follow Monica Padman on Instagram at ML Padman.

[1738] ML Padman.

[1739] If you want to see my medicine cabinet.

[1740] You do.

[1741] Not to be missed.

[1742] Wait, but just real quick, tell people about the three kinds of meat.

[1743] Oh, shit.

[1744] Wagu from Japan, olive, snow, and a third one I can't pronounce.

[1745] And we got a sampler of that.

[1746] And it was, yeah, you could just cut it with a fork.

[1747] Oh, my God.

[1748] It's crazy.

[1749] Did you get it rare?

[1750] No. And did they look down on you for not getting it rare?

[1751] No, this is the thing.

[1752] This whole medium rare and rare thing is a little bit of an urban legend.

[1753] It's like what everyone's dad tells them when they're young, like a good piece of meat you have medium rare.

[1754] That's horseshit for a rabbi, a ribeye, which is really fatty and has a lot of marbling.

[1755] And even this woman, I was so happy, this woman's been working at this, the best steakhouse in Seattle, maybe the country.

[1756] It's won many awards.

[1757] She goes, you should never get a rib -eye, anything below medium, and maybe even a little above, or the fat doesn't melt.

[1758] And so, but Jethra, who's not super into me, he was like, aren't you supposed to, we all know, like, aren't you supposed to not get it over?

[1759] And it's like, no, no, no, you're supposed to get the fat melted in that marbling.

[1760] So anyways, the sampler, I wish had been even more, I think we got it, like, medium.

[1761] But their kind of medium was medium rare.

[1762] I got my rib -eye medium well, which was really, like, medium top.

[1763] Wow.

[1764] Anyways, here's the crazy thing.

[1765] That stuff was amazing.

[1766] Like, it was really unique and it was amazing.

[1767] But the ribeye for me is it.

[1768] It's your favorite.

[1769] I also ordered a ribeye.

[1770] And it was better for me. That's my steak review.

[1771] See The Great?

[1772] Watch Tina Turner and ribai.

[1773] Ding, ding, ding.

[1774] Bye.

[1775] Love you.

[1776] Love you.

[1777] Follow armchair expert on the Wondry app, Amazon music or wherever you get your podcasts.

[1778] You can listen to every episode of Armchair expert early and ad free right now by joining Wondry Plus in the Wondry app or on Apple podcasts.

[1779] Before you go, tell us about yourself by completing a short survey at Wondry .com slash survey.