The Diary Of A CEO with Steven Bartlett XX
[0] We just had this sound and it was a car just rammed through the crowd and I just blacked out.
[1] I hardly had a child who was always working and I used to hate it growing up because I just felt like when am I going to become a child, you know, and play like other kids.
[2] The 10th of February, tell me about that day.
[3] Man, I was a scary thing for me When I went to the hospital, no one knew what to do I would literally close my eyes I wouldn't know whether it's here or here or here So it was paralyzed at that point Yeah, I stayed for three months in the hospital You know, and that depressed me even more Music helped me so much It brought me peace This is why I share it It's my way of healing people The same way it healed me My childhood, where I come from, those things scare me. Why do those things scare you?
[4] Because it's a story that it was for years hard for me to share.
[5] So what happened is like...
[6] Without further ado, I'm Stephen Butler, and this is the diary of a CEO.
[7] I hope nobody's listening.
[8] But if you are, then please keep this to yourself.
[9] So the question that I always start this podcast with, because I studied childhood psychology for a little while, and it was illuminating to me how.
[10] much of our early years end up defining and shaping us who we become.
[11] So that early context before 12 years old, what did that look like for you?
[12] When I was born, my parents were married.
[13] My mom was super young.
[14] I was the first one.
[15] Two other siblings at the time.
[16] My mom married very extremely young, probably like 22, 23 already.
[17] With three kids.
[18] it's divorcing, we were moved to live with our grandmother from the maternal side.
[19] And she's the one who raised us.
[20] And she used to work in a general hospital in a sewing room.
[21] But I saw her working extremely hard to go for everything she wanted.
[22] You know, like I look back and tried to imagine how much money she was earning.
[23] And look at the achievements, like changing her mud house into a big, designed, respectable house.
[24] And she did this bit by bit by bit.
[25] And as a kid, I was there, and I saw it, whatever little money she would have.
[26] She would buy the bricks.
[27] They would wait.
[28] She buys sand.
[29] It weighs.
[30] You buy gravel.
[31] It weights everything.
[32] Slowly.
[33] So that's what I learned.
[34] from her like to be assertive you wake up you go work also the strongest thing that i learned from her is she had cows and she was the only woman in the area you know who had cows you know and she was single woman and my job was to every morning go milk the cows before i go to school every afternoon after school so i hardly had a child who had like a time to play as a child i was always working five o 'clock 5 .30 from 11 years old every single day and um that was my environment you know where i'm like okay whatever you need you just you have to work there's no other way and so for the few years she would make sure i'm up she would make sure you know, I'm on time and eventually it was my thing.
[35] She didn't have to wake me up.
[36] She didn't have to tell me when to go.
[37] She didn't have to.
[38] If there was a problem with the calves, I knew what was wrong.
[39] If I needed to get medication from the pharmacy, you know, I understood everything eventually.
[40] It became my thing.
[41] You know, that's my childhood.
[42] Where was your father?
[43] My father remained in Durban and remarried.
[44] So he started another family.
[45] He worked in a factory.
[46] For a company called Bacon, they made sweets and chocolates.
[47] That's where he worked.
[48] And he just didn't have, he was a nice guy, but he wasn't present.
[49] So on holidays, we go see him, you know, he would have nothing to say.
[50] He wasn't the guy who was like, how was you?
[51] a day, house school, you know, any advice type of thing, you know, he wasn't, it was just like the way he was, you know, um, yet my grandmother was, she was the man and a woman.
[52] So she's the one who basically, and I used to hate it growing up because I just felt like, well, when, when am I going to become a child, you know, and play like other kids?
[53] And she was like this.
[54] She was super straight.
[55] She was like, assertive, hardworking, you know, there's hardly time to do like all the games like other kids were doing.
[56] You know, so I grew up with that kind of focus, which I hated because I wanted to be a kid.
[57] You know, but then it taught me so much about just work, having a work earthic and that's how I'm able to just pick up and leave wherever I can you know I always referenced this conversation I had with the guy that trained Michael Jordan and Kobe and he told me that you know these things when we're young they end up being the consequence of our greatness of our talent these hardships we have but they also always come with a cost so the lack of play the lack of a father figure, the situation of you growing up in a house where you didn't have electricity, you're milking cows, your food is cooked by you creating a fire, etc. What is the cost?
[58] I can, the lesson and the value it gave you is so clear.
[59] But what is the cost?
[60] Lots.
[61] One of them is just being to myself.
[62] You know, to a point where I have a very small cycle of friends because I was never just a social guy, you know.
[63] So I was, as a kid, I always had to do all the work alone.
[64] Because your friends will sometimes come, you know, but then they realized, okay, every day, you know, so they're not going to always come.
[65] So I was always like a loner growing up.
[66] And then I kind of like got comfortable with that, got comfortable with trusting my thoughts and my decisions, you know, like being confident in just myself without needing people.
[67] You know, and that has like affected a lot of like personal relationships where if I just feel a little bit uneasy, I will just remove myself.
[68] And it's not hard for me because I'm like, what I really know is myself, you know.
[69] But it's something I want to start working on because I'm quick to create a comfortable space.
[70] You know, I can meet a stranger and I'm quick to just like.
[71] but I'm much quicker to move as well you know and it's something that I feel is not like real you know but it's doable because I'm always on the move and and and you know but there are things that I'm like I need to work on you know typically you know I think there's a bit of a stereotype that black men aren't the best at emotions.
[72] And some people point out sort of generational cycles for that.
[73] Did you learn how to express your emotions when you were young?
[74] No. I was terrible at it.
[75] And there was no one.
[76] Like I said, my grandmother was quite tough.
[77] So, and I look at how I am with my kids, you can see when you've pushed a little bit hard.
[78] in conversation with someone and you are able to bring them back, you know, and explain, like, look, I'm sorry, you know, I was a bit loud there, this is why.
[79] And, you know, like, so that they understand all the dynamics, you know, and the older generation was the one that will whip you, you know, and tell you, it's going to hurt me that, more than it hurts you.
[80] and that's it, you'll get over it.
[81] Because as a child, you have unconditional love for your parent.
[82] You'll eventually get over it, and you're the one coming back, making jokes like nothing happened.
[83] You know, but I didn't have, like, a good role model in anything.
[84] Even this, you know, I used to, like, avoid, I still do.
[85] There's doing interviews because there's just, again, society pressure that if I'm good in making music, am I good in public speaking?
[86] So if I play songs nice, am I now a role model to your children more than you?
[87] you know but society will say oh don't act this way my kids look up to you and i'm like but i'm just a DJ who's living his life and all of a sudden it's like no no no but you can't uh you can't tweet like this because um it's you you know so in in the beginning all i wanted to do was just to play music.
[88] Like I was that kid, even if I'm not invited at a party, I bring my record box and I wait and I hope they give me a chance.
[89] You know, that's all I wanted to do.
[90] Why?
[91] Why music?
[92] Because it's always been my escape, you know, in that house where I used to leave and all I did was work and that in my room, music helped me so much to dream of these moments, you know, like, if I listen to Michael Jackson, I imagine where he leaves or in America and that one day I'll go there, you know, that's it.
[93] It really, like, took me to all these places.
[94] So it became my friend, you know, and I never had an explanation as to even then what I would do with it.
[95] Like, when I finish high school, I'm like, I'm going to go to college and study.
[96] and my cousins were like, are you crazy?
[97] Then what are you going to do?
[98] I didn't know.
[99] Do you want to be a teacher?
[100] I'm like, no, but this is what I want to do.
[101] As long as I was surrounded by music, that's all I wanted to do, you know, because it just brought me so much peace, happiness, you know.
[102] And this is why I share it.
[103] I share it because of what it does to me. You know, it's my, it's my way of healing people, the same way it healed me. I don't know if I'm making sense.
[104] You know, I sat here and I sat with the biggest comedians in this country.
[105] And typically with comedians, the stereotype is that the comedian is depressed.
[106] So they started cracking jokes.
[107] And then one of the comedians came here and said to me, he said, you shouldn't be asking, you should never ask a comedian if they're depressed because it's usually that they were doing, comedy because one of their parents were depressed.
[108] So comedy became a way for them to see a smile on their mother's face for the first time, or to see their father smile for the first time.
[109] Music and the role it played in your household.
[110] And just in your environment, outside of yourself, I was wondering, as you're saying that, is it also something that created happiness in others when you were young that you saw, like your family or your...
[111] Yeah.
[112] Before we moved, to my grandmother's place in the Eastern Cape.
[113] The structure of my family back then was my entire family lived in one house, or not entire, but my father and his brothers.
[114] So there was about four families.
[115] And that's where music was like a thing.
[116] You know, one of my uncles, my father's brother, I had like a small, call them ghetto blasters.
[117] Yeah.
[118] So he was the music guy.
[119] He loved reggae.
[120] He used to play reggae a lot.
[121] That's where my first love for reggae came from.
[122] Like anything, as a kid, I used to know different Peter Tosh albums, Bob Mali and the Wailers and all that kind of music.
[123] And every now and then, then it would be the pop that was happening at the time and he will take it out and all of us will be out there and we would dance, you know.
[124] That's my earliest childhood memory with music is that in that big family, when it's hot and it's summer and we're just all outside and he plays the music and how we dance.
[125] Anything with music you would find me. That's why I never knew what I would do with it, you know, but I just knew wherever it is.
[126] sometimes they will send me to the shops and in the township sometimes there will be like a big Coca -Cola truck maybe they're promoting a new flavor and it's parked in this, they play music they send me to buy bread and I don't come back like literally because I'm just there like I'm just listening to music you know I don't leave literally and I get into trouble you know so wherever there was music that's how I got into it because my cousin, who's also our neighbor, he and his friend had a mobile sound system.
[127] So they were doing weddings, like graduation parties.
[128] And so during the week, you'll have the sound system connected, like just small speaker and you'd play loud music and I'll go there.
[129] So I'll spend days there, and then I started, like, they used to use, like, cassettes and you rewind with a pen.
[130] So that's how I started.
[131] and I would like learn and I was curious and then they will take me to the day parties.
[132] Then I'll be the opening DJ.
[133] But I was so curious that I developed a style of playing.
[134] You know, I was a little bit advanced in understanding tempos of the songs.
[135] And so I wouldn't just randomly play.
[136] I would play songs that were close together in tempo.
[137] And so all of a sudden, the mixes were like almost flawless.
[138] And people were like, then I became their main DJ.
[139] You know, by 14, 15, I was like their main DJ.
[140] And the people booking them will tell them, bring that black boy.
[141] I was like super dark as a kid.
[142] Bring him, you know.
[143] And then I was more curious.
[144] Then I started collecting records.
[145] Then I bought 10 tables and they were for my own.
[146] And they bring the system.
[147] I plug more things, you know, and then when I finished school and I moved to another city back to Devon, where there was more access to things, and I really got into it.
[148] So I was studying jazz music, but I was a DJ on the side.
[149] And sometimes I would bring tenta rules into the school studio, you know.
[150] It was such a fascinating thing for the jazz students because we were there, like, learning jazz scales and like the theory of music and I'm here with my DJing equipment.
[151] You know, at some point, actually, while I was a jazz student and a DJ, I did a classical play, like all three at the same time, you know, because me and a friend of mine in the whole way at school, because we were in the choir.
[152] We were singing one of the songs.
[153] We sang in high school in a choir, and one of the school lecturers heard us.
[154] And she was shocked, because we were jazz students.
[155] She was like, wow, you guys, you know, this is classical music.
[156] Like, you sound so nice.
[157] There's a play that's happening at the Playhouse called The Pirates of Penzance.
[158] If you were like, cool.
[159] So we went, we auditioned, we got the parts.
[160] So we would do jazz studies after school, we go practice at the playhouse.
[161] And we went to perform, we did, I was opening the show, like I was a tenor, you know, just anything that I had to do with music.
[162] So from jazz when I was young, sorry, reggae, then I went through different stages.
[163] And there was a time where I was like obsessed with like fusion, then gospel music, then like classical.
[164] music so and i didn't understand what i was being prepared for you know all these years i kept being exposed to different types and i'm a dj so then my taste varies based on understanding these different genres that's why i was able to in 2010 do a show with the 24 piece orchestra because 8 000 people yeah in the stadium so of course i was exposed to this music and i knew where to breach you know the gap The 10th of February, pivotal day in your life.
[165] Yeah.
[166] Tell me about that day.
[167] Man. 1990.
[168] Yeah, I was talking to someone about it.
[169] Because it's a story, it was for years hard for me to share, you know, and I'm in a better space now.
[170] I'm able to talk about it.
[171] Street grandmother, we're at home.
[172] on the 10th, which was like around eight at night.
[173] And she was super strict.
[174] No one comes out of the house that late.
[175] We were sitting in the house.
[176] I think after dinner, we hear people singing outside.
[177] We all come out.
[178] Everyone comes out to see what's happening.
[179] And it was people singing.
[180] There were a group of people about to pass our house.
[181] We ran to the crowd with my cousins.
[182] you know, we were not allowed to, but this was nice.
[183] So there wasn't a big thing even, I mean, for her.
[184] But my cousins went back.
[185] I didn't.
[186] Why?
[187] Music.
[188] So I followed the crowd.
[189] And the reason this was happening is because on the 11th of February, Nelson Mandela was officially coming out of jail after 27 years.
[190] so there was like tribulations around the entire country this was happening in all the major cities where people were like we're going to stay up all night until the morning you know of his release so this crowd was going to a stadium which is close to my house that's where the camping was going to be the singing until the morning in the stadium so they went on the streets basically gathering more crowds and we were now close to the stadium and just out of nowhere we just heard this sound and it was a car just came out of nowhere lights off just rammed through the crowd so I was not in the front but I was maybe like 20 % in and I just blacked out and people were screaming and when I woke up there was fire you know people were angry so basically this driver switched off the lights to literally just kill people with this car and so they bent the car where they bent the guy too and they burnt the guy yeah They pulled them out, the car and killed him.
[191] Yeah.
[192] And he stayed there for hours, actually, without anyone coming for him.
[193] Because I remember, this happened at 4 in the morning, went to a hospital around, like 30 minutes later, the cars took us to hospital.
[194] I came back from the hospital around 7, 8.
[195] He was still there.
[196] Like, not even covered.
[197] his car he was still lying there on the ground that cost his life and someone else's life who was also in the crowd so by that time i mean it's 7 in the morning i'm back from hospital the announcement happens nelson mandela is finally out of jail we're watching this from tv i'm sitting on the couch you know there's just chaos in the country people are so happy This man is finally out.
[198] And I was on the couch in pain, you know, after the accident.
[199] And I think what really happened to me, I don't think the car reached to me. I don't think the car touched me. I think the force of the people that were in front because of the impact, they pushed so hard.
[200] So what happened is I dislocated my shoulder, but severely.
[201] I had no bruises, no cards.
[202] It just came off, meaning my nerves that connect the arm to the body were snatched.
[203] And being in a small town, when I went to the hospital, no one knew what to do.
[204] So I'm there, I'm holding my arm like, They don't know if it's broken, they don't know what to do with it, you know.
[205] So they just gave me a sling and pain tablets and I went back home.
[206] But the pain couldn't stop.
[207] And then the following day, then I went to Devon, which is the bigger city to go to, like, a bigger hospital where I stayed for three months in the hospital, you know.
[208] And even that, they didn't know what to do.
[209] One morning, they were like, okay, we figured.
[210] out they put a cast so i'll have a cast for like two weeks but the damage was here but i was a kid as well so i didn't understand you know um so the injury is called brachial plexus which is um it's the damage of of nerves and there's nothing you can do to fix damage nerves they can only fix themselves so over time um so they tried different things at some point i remember I remember I was being taken to like a specialist to see if there was life on my arm.
[211] So, because they were thinking of amputating my arm.
[212] So they put this device that had electricity to see if it's going to, I'm going to fill it.
[213] And there was just like probably like 5 % of life.
[214] And he was like, no, we don't have to do it.
[215] over time the nerves will grow back and that's what has happened you know and as a kid i mean i was 14 it was life -changing you know um the things i wouldn't i wasn't able to do um activities there was just things i couldn't i was in a music class you know um so i couldn't participate when on the piano uh like lessons and we used to play recorders And so I went through a phase where it really affected me. And just over time, I was like, actually, I have a life to live.
[216] When you say you went through a phase where it really affected you, what does that mean?
[217] Like, why me?
[218] I mean, I mean, when you are born, fine, all of a sudden, and kids can be mean.
[219] So the name calling comes and, you know, because also I thought it was going to pass.
[220] And I would, as a kid even have dreams, you know, I wake up, I'm like, oh, I had a dream last night.
[221] My hand was working and I was doing this.
[222] And, you know, and so to me it was like, maybe next week, maybe next month, you know, I'm going to be fine again.
[223] And so I went through a lot of that, you know, and then eventually acceptance, like, okay, this is what it is, you know.
[224] I have to live.
[225] I have to move on.
[226] And I kind of like stop thinking about it and just focused on what's next.
[227] How do I learn to tie my shoes?
[228] You know?
[229] Or just wake up and do everything without calling for help.
[230] That was the most important thing for me because I didn't want to feel sorry for myself.
[231] That's the most important thing where I was like, I need to learn how to not to call anyone for anything.
[232] Zero.
[233] Like, then that was a big thing for me. What condition is your left arm in now as we sit here?
[234] It has gained probably like 40 % movement.
[235] And we put it this way.
[236] When it happened, I would literally close my eyes and I would know it was.
[237] Okay.
[238] So it was paralyzed at that point?
[239] Yeah, the whole arm.
[240] I wouldn't know whether it's here or here or here or, you know.
[241] So over time, I've started feeling things.
[242] I can differentiate between hot water and cold water.
[243] and every now and then, because that's another thing.
[244] I used to do physiotherapy a lot.
[245] And I was a kid, and I used to, after school, I go, and I train.
[246] And that depressed me even more because I was waiting for results, you know.
[247] And I thought, I'm training for muscle that wasn't coming.
[248] So I couldn't see anything.
[249] And when I stopped, I stopped everything.
[250] I stopped thinking about it.
[251] I stopped waiting for it to be better acceptance.
[252] Yeah.
[253] So even now, it's like, if I walk up and it was fine, do I even need it?
[254] That's where I met.
[255] Like, it doesn't really matter.
[256] You know, I think my life has turned out exactly how it's supposed to.
[257] This happened to you when you were 14, but you didn't share it with the world until 2017 in a Facebook post.
[258] Yeah.
[259] Because as an artist, I just felt like, I did not want to be seen as that guy who has a disability, you know, where it's like, oh, you know, like, I didn't want a PT party.
[260] You know, I just wanted to be understood and heard like everyone else, you know.
[261] So my first album came out in 2005.
[262] That's it.
[263] I just worked on music, relisted.
[264] I used to DJ the way I do.
[265] And people used to think, this guy, he plays with his hand in his pocket.
[266] What's with that?
[267] You know, like, it looks cool about what's, you know?
[268] I thought you were just the coolest motherfucker ever.
[269] People were like, because the hand thing in the pocket happened when I was a kid.
[270] and because I used to have the sling and even when I run with other kids and I had to have to hold this hand because it was just moving everywhere and one day I was like, I just put it in the pocket and I was like damn this is more functional than having a sling and I never stopped you know and so it wasn't even a thing that was like so deep it just happened when I was young and I was like actually I feel comfortable like this and over time it became you know a thing because also being the introvert that I am, it helps me in not explaining myself.
[271] Because everyone, even now, there's things like that I'm support.
[272] You can buy them from pharmacy.
[273] I have them.
[274] So when I'm home, I use that.
[275] Or when I have people at my house, I use it.
[276] Or when I swim.
[277] And even people who know me are like, are you okay?
[278] What happened?
[279] You know, these were things I was avoiding to be having to explain myself all the time.
[280] Like, you know, I was like, I sit and I look no more like everyone else.
[281] And there's people promise you in my life today who don't know.
[282] And it's fine.
[283] Did it make you work harder or have to work harder to get to where you are today?
[284] Definitely.
[285] Definitely.
[286] especially as a DJ, you know, because I just felt like this thing was trying to rob me of this one thing that I really, really love, and I will not allow it, you know.
[287] So it made me, in that sense, not even in a sense of who's going to employ me, I'm fucked.
[288] My life is a mess.
[289] It was like, if there's one thing I'm not going to lose.
[290] It's music, you know, I won't stop.
[291] I have to be a DJ.
[292] I have to.
[293] I have to.
[294] And I'm from the cassette era to the vinyl.
[295] I mean, how do you take a vinyl out of a vinyl package with one hand?
[296] And this used to stress me. And when I look at it, I'm like, how will I become a professional DJ?
[297] You know, and it takes me not, it took me not thinking.
[298] I just like, did it.
[299] You know, like, I'm like, this is one thing I want to do.
[300] So I just went all the way.
[301] I go to school.
[302] I remember there was a time where I'll spend at least two hours every day, DJing for, I didn't play for a club or every day, two hours of my time.
[303] Because I, and I used to say this, like, I just want to be ready.
[304] Like, one day when someone says, you're a DJ?
[305] I must boldly say, yeah.
[306] You know, and I look now, and I play sometimes, I'm like, man, you're good.
[307] Like, I look at, I'm like, wow, you know, because I developed a style, you know, of playing that is my own, based on understanding myself.
[308] and what I can do, you know.
[309] I have a friend, Seanda, who grew up with his also a DJ.
[310] And when I started, like, back in the day, like really, when I was spending time practicing, I used to be really crazy.
[311] And he says this all the time.
[312] Like, they don't even know how crazy you are.
[313] Because now I don't do, I don't do anything.
[314] I just play less is more.
[315] You know, I'm more experience.
[316] now but my understanding of it is like on a different level you know but I'm at a space where I'm like I don't have to do you know that's where I'm I think I have to yeah I don't have to because I've been there it's like learning the basic course and you go to a advanced course you know go advanced driving doesn't mean you're going to come on the road and drive like you were on the advanced driving school, you know.
[317] It's just understanding and knowing.
[318] Like, when I look at this thing, it's part of me. The deck?
[319] Yeah.
[320] When you were asked, I think you were in your early 20s, they asked you, you know, I think you just, was that around the time you'd done the Red Bull?
[321] Your early 20s, they asked you in an interview where you were going to be in two years.
[322] Oh, man. Do you remember?
[323] I was a scary thing for me. I remember that I'll never forget it You know, I don't think that was me talking You know, I just It was It was black coffee Someone I wasn't yet You know Because I was never that guy You know I didn't have I don't want to insult my schools And say I didn't have the right education But, you know, I look at my kids' schools where they go to, they learn public speaking.
[324] They know how to present themselves and they know how to get across a point, a point across.
[325] They know how to speak.
[326] And I'm not from the everything that I kind of like have.
[327] I had to figure it out myself, you know.
[328] And so doing an interview then, being asked this question.
[329] And at the worst time of my life then, and give that answer, because the question was, where do you see yourself?
[330] And I said, they said in two years, and I said, in five years, just gave myself time.
[331] I said, in five years, I'm going to be one of the most important producers.
[332] I don't know if I said off the continent or the country, you know, which actually, I'm proud of that because it could have been worse.
[333] You know, I could have said, I want to be number one.
[334] I'm going to be the best best motherfucker.
[335] I would have said something crazy, like pampers.
[336] You know, my answer was still, like, very modest.
[337] But I was clear about what I wanted, you know.
[338] But after saying it, I freaked out because then I realized I need to own this.
[339] I need to own it, and I need to then start working towards it, you know.
[340] And, yeah, and then two years later, which was the question, I released my album and I won my first award for best album, you know, which was low -key.
[341] Then I was the best producer in the genre in the country, you know.
[342] But I think, I don't know, like, if it's the awards that drive me or just success itself, because the narrative is that, oh, it's probably, I get a Grammy, they're like, he wants something more.
[343] He wants more.
[344] He wants more.
[345] And I don't think I look at things like that.
[346] I think I just know that I can do more than in a world.
[347] I can do more than an achievement.
[348] I can do more than, you know, I'm capable.
[349] That's it.
[350] That's what I'm fighting for.
[351] You know, and it's a little boy in me who was milking.
[352] cars who had no friends who was like I can especially coming from where I come from and that's it it's never really about I'm the smartest one and I'm going to be the best one I'm the most gifted one it's just like I started with nothing I'm from like nowhere really like so and I had nothing to lose you know so I threw myself in and I just want to keep going.
[353] When you look back at the, you know, you said that in your early 20s, two years later, your album wins that amazing award, your career continues to go to the moon.
[354] When you look back in hindsight with wisdom and say, ah, because I think it's always in hindsight, you go, that's why I got here.
[355] You've talked about the obsessiveness.
[356] Yeah.
[357] I get that.
[358] I get the drive, the hunger.
[359] But as it relates to the creativity and the craftsmen, you know, the craftsmouth.
[360] and all the other things, why you and why not some other young, you know, South African DJ from the Eastern Cape?
[361] I think, it's what I think, it's just being intentional about what you want.
[362] The people I work with from the beginning, there's always just like the goal is similar.
[363] We don't try to, I don't think we chase number one.
[364] You know, we just, we, we, we, we, we just want quality.
[365] We strive for quality.
[366] We understand the less is more concepts.
[367] I've never, and I've treated this once in my country as well.
[368] I've never gone for like, I want song of the year.
[369] those things scare me I just want to release music that has the kind of substance that I love What do those things scare you?
[370] Because I just feel like then you have to keep chasing the number one So if I am this year Then I must be next year Otherwise then there's a deep That's going to come with that if I'm not So We do what we're comfortable with Because what we're comfortable with we can do it again, you know, and improve it and improve it.
[371] So the goal is always the same, like, not to try and go mainstream.
[372] It's just be comfortable, you know, you can wake me up tomorrow and be like, can you make a song like, drive?
[373] I would like, I can probably better than, oh, I can never make that song again because, wow, you know.
[374] It's in my space, you know.
[375] Everything is in my sound bank.
[376] Everything I work with is always around, you know.
[377] And also I think now I'm clearer as to who I am as an artist.
[378] You know, I'm more of, I'll say 65 % DJ.
[379] That's where all my energy is.
[380] And then 35%.
[381] producer.
[382] Having sat here with Diplow and other artists, Jesse Jay, the boys from One Direction, Liam Payne, what I heard over and over again from them is that with success in music, there becomes more authority figures, record labels, etc., telling you how you should sound, and telling you that if you sound like this, then you'll get a number one and it'll be mainstream, etc., etc., over the course of your career as you look back has it been to try and stay true to yourself despite the temptation to fit someone's that's an easy part for us you know because first of all what am i looking for like what i just explained to you now is being a more dj than a producer so djing pays our bills that's our core business Therefore, that's where we're going to be strongest.
[383] And releasing music is the second part of the business.
[384] So it being the second part of the business means it's not the main thing.
[385] And so there's no pressure in then following all the trends that come.
[386] And I've been quite fortunate in my career from the beginning when I released my first.
[387] album, I released it with the licensing deal, meaning I did it on my own and I submitted to a label.
[388] So no one could say, we don't like number five, take out number seven, don't you want to fix number two, you know, it was a done and packaged album.
[389] And that's been the nature of my production career where the last album that I did was the first album with a label in the US where there was that authority, you know, and it would mostly come as, we're not sure about this one.
[390] But what I did, I separated my African.
[391] releases from the global releases.
[392] Therefore, when they're like, we're not sure, I'm like, it's okay, I'll release it in Africa.
[393] Where I know it will make more sense.
[394] And also it fits the sound that I'm doing, that I wanted to, you know.
[395] So I remember one of the songs I released was a song called Your Eyes with the South African artist called Shikana.
[396] Brilliant song and they were like, I released it.
[397] And immediately after it came out, they changed their minds.
[398] They were like, okay, maybe not.
[399] We'll also release the song.
[400] You know, because we were not following what they want, you know.
[401] And we were cool with it, you know.
[402] Then after I released an EP called Music is King, which was purely purely for like the African markets.
[403] Because even now, I don't have a label.
[404] So I don't have to have these conversations about what song I want to do and how does it sound.
[405] But still, when I do, my team knows I want to separate the two.
[406] Africa must be on its own because one day I may wake up and be like, I've always been a fan of Salifcator.
[407] I want to do a song in Salifcator.
[408] And when you do a song with Salivcator being a Grammy -winning artist, If you put that song on an album, that album might not be nominated on the dance electronic album.
[409] Because the language is foreign.
[410] They will take that album and shelve it with the world music.
[411] That means you're competing against your African brothers and sisters, which is what I really hate.
[412] So my point is, I then separate the two.
[413] If I want to do a single with an African artist, I can do that.
[414] If I want to do like a Grammy quality kind of work, I can still do it.
[415] But I'm fortunate not to have those kind of gatekeepers and authority that tell me, you know.
[416] And I can understand with the deep lows in them.
[417] You know, their structures are different.
[418] But we're fortunate to, we've structured our things well.
[419] How many shows?
[420] So you said 60 % DJing.
[421] How many shows do you do in a busy year?
[422] I don't know, man. Ibiza, this summer I think I did 21.
[423] Just Ibiza alone.
[424] All Saturdays at high, right?
[425] Yeah.
[426] I was there for two of them.
[427] Yeah.
[428] Just Saturdays alone in Ibiza, like 21 of them.
[429] And serving there since May, so meaning every...
[430] weekend, Thursday, Friday, I'm somewhere else, Sunday, I'm somewhere else, every weekend.
[431] Every weekend.
[432] So Thursday, Friday, Saturday.
[433] And Sunday.
[434] And Sunday.
[435] Sometimes...
[436] You're going to be flying around.
[437] That's what we do.
[438] So before high, I'm somewhere else.
[439] After high, I'm somewhere else.
[440] Like I had a show here on a Sunday yesterday.
[441] I have a show, I have a show on Tuesday tomorrow.
[442] You know, so sometimes there's Tuesday.
[443] sometimes it's Wednesdays, but every summer, it's like, for every Saturday, there's a Thursday and a Sunday sometimes.
[444] How many shows is that in a year, though, if you were to add it up?
[445] Is it?
[446] Because I read that it was more than 150 sometimes?
[447] No, it is, yeah, definitely.
[448] That's a lot of shows.
[449] I think I, you know, I did my little tour of this podcast and we did nine, and I was fucking knackered.
[450] We did nine shows in two months, and I was like, ha -ha, I need to wait another.
[451] the year before I do that because of the adrenaline and all the feelings and the emotion and the performance and it's late and whatever else.
[452] How?
[453] How?
[454] No, I think at this point, I mean, this is what we do.
[455] You know, if you look at the, you made a reference about Michael Jordan and Cobb.
[456] Can you imagine, like the hours they spend, like to get to that level, you know, it becomes second nature you know the first thing that comes to mind is that little boy milking cows I'm like this is a blessing so nine shows you must have made good money for you to complain I don't think we made any money but we gave it all to join you're like I'm done I'm retiring but I do wonder because, you know, I hear about the kid that was milking the cows with no electricity back in South Africa.
[457] And, you know, sometimes my fear is that that kid is going to, when that kid becomes an adult, he will make decisions which will compromise other needs because he's so driven to survive.
[458] Definitely.
[459] At some point, as you said before, I think we start recording, you've got to step out of survival at some point and now we live.
[460] That's why therapy is such an important thing, you know, for us, I mean, I've had so many different conversations with South African artists.
[461] Some I've had conflict with and, you know, when we meet and try to solve the conflict, I'm like, let me tell you what's going to help all of us.
[462] It's therapy.
[463] Because how do I go from being that boy, you know, living in the same community?
[464] where like no one even looked at me, you know, and you fast forward, I'm coming back to that same community, like in a Lamborghini and everyone wants a picture.
[465] And it's a mind fact, just to me, you know.
[466] So you need to really work on yourself when you cross that line where it's like someone you looked up to as a kid you thought this guy is so successful and you realize that actually you are the successful one.
[467] So how is the shift then even in respecting that person?
[468] You know, because then one is like, I'm the king now.
[469] You know, then another is like, you're still the king.
[470] You did this before me. I'm paying so much respects to you.
[471] So it's a very thin line between in seeing yourself as a king over everyone else or knowing you are and still respecting everyone else.
[472] And that's the balance for me. And it took me such a long time and I'm still battling and I'm working on it and I'm a little bit better now in understanding the difference between Natty and Black Coffee.
[473] What is the difference between Natty and Black Coffee, the little boy and yourself as a DJ?
[474] Black Coffee has all the privileges, right?
[475] Like, it's a joke in my house.
[476] And sometimes when I want to go eating a restaurant, and I think late, I'm like, damn, I need to go.
[477] And you know, and I tell my sister, please book.
[478] And then she's like, oh, well, not now.
[479] It used to happen like that.
[480] She's like, oh, it's fully booked.
[481] And then I'm like, no, but just tell them who's calling.
[482] And then she's like, oh, yeah, yeah, table for two, sorted, you know, those are the packs of.
[483] those are black coffee packs where it's like if natty called the restaurant is full if black coffee called there's a seat for you there's a table for you so natch is the kid that grew up going through magazine and seeing model girls you know like thinking wow if one day i can have a girlfriend like this right that's nati and But Nattie never had access to that.
[484] And never would, given where he comes from.
[485] But black coffee has access to that.
[486] So then sometimes Nattie uses black coffee, you know, to satisfy Natti.
[487] Where it's like, instead of saying, hi, I'm Nattie, it's, oh, you black coffee.
[488] And I'm like, hmm, yeah.
[489] you understand so it's two different things to a point where even where i live now it's crazy but that's how it is where i first bought myself a house this is with my developed four stories that's not even final i moved out of the house so i'm like life is going to be so dope you know now that i'm a single guy and i live in this apartment and in between tours i go back and like wow And then toys over, I'm back home, I'm sitting.
[490] I'm like, is this my life?
[491] You know, like, I just, the house I left, I just finished building.
[492] Now I live in an apartment, like a student.
[493] Let me look for a house for myself.
[494] Then I look for a house and I found it.
[495] So I have the house, but now I'm like, it's a big house.
[496] But it's lonely because I'm from family.
[497] I live alone.
[498] So I'm like, Mom, don't you want to move and come stay with me?
[499] Which I think it's a noble thing, you know, because my mom had, like, a heart problem.
[500] So she moves, and then now I have the warmth of the family, right?
[501] It's nice.
[502] And I'm like, but is this my life?
[503] Like, I live with my mother.
[504] So, I mean, I can't bring my friends here.
[505] Like, can't have a little party because my mom is in the other room.
[506] Then it bothers me so much.
[507] And I think, and I remember having a conversation with my friend.
[508] I'm like, man. And I love it, but at the same time, I even told her, you know, I'm like, I just feel like, this can be, you know, where I'm like, I'm about to finalize my divorce and I live with my mother.
[509] You know, and the most incredible thing happened.
[510] I get a phone call.
[511] Just that week when it was stressing me so much, I get a phone call.
[512] It's a number I don't know.
[513] I'm like, yo, and this guy's like, my name is my call.
[514] I'm your neighbor.
[515] And we have this long conversation on the phone.
[516] And then it's like, by the way, I'm selling my house.
[517] And I'm going away.
[518] We're moving to another country and just letting you know as a neighbor.
[519] Because it was like a solution.
[520] So I bought the neighbor's house.
[521] And in my crazy head, the neighbor's house, that's where my mom and children are going to stay.
[522] That's a naughty house.
[523] right so that's where you're going to find me on the floor on the grass playing with my children then next door that's the black coffee house i want to come to the black coffee house you know but the thing is about the black coffee house which is what before we started recording you were asking me what's on my mind and i was telling you legacy legacy legacy i want to build black coffee house as like a black coffee house i would be like a future black coffee house okay not a current black coffee house not current but it will be a future this is where he used to live okay you know so I'm I'm very much intentional about the things I collect the art on the wall like everything that I do I'm doing to create value in the house you know to have Steve come to this house and we take a picture by the pool and it goes to the wall of fame Oh, nice.
[524] You know, so...
[525] Tell me when.
[526] You know, like, creates this value out of it, you know?
[527] Any kind of friends that are, you know, like, are known in the world that come to visit, we create all the memorabilia, even the suit I wore, the grimmies, you know, frame it and, you know, stuff kept it and the shoes and, you know, like, that's their whole idea to kind of, like, build like a legacy project for my kids who are living next door, you know, in a new.
[528] normal setting where they're not exposed to or um their lives are normal you know you're not like having a day with the kids in the pool and then drake's walk drake is walking in you know like steve baller you know what i mean so that's the difference between the between black coffee and nutty i'm just like taking it that far where i'm understanding the different dynamics When you told me the story of going from a divorce in a house to an apartment penthouse, to a house with your mother, to then moving next door back on your own, it sounded to me like someone that was struggling to try and have the best of both worlds continually.
[529] Yeah.
[530] Because in your own words, you were told that the best life was to be married.
[531] Yeah.
[532] Tried that.
[533] Yeah.
[534] You discovered that for you.
[535] It wasn't.
[536] So you went back to the penthouse.
[537] Yeah.
[538] Which is where I was like, damn.
[539] Bachelor single, we're about to.
[540] Yeah.
[541] And then you're in the penthouse, you go, fuck, I need to be back in that house.
[542] I have a family environment, yeah.
[543] And then you get the mother back in and the mum comes in and you go, fuck out.
[544] Actually, no. The day my divorce is signed, how do I celebrate?
[545] You know, it can't be in front of my mother, you know.
[546] So you're right.
[547] But remember, it's all the search.
[548] That's what it is.
[549] searching for happiness and in the end i don't think we're going to be able to find and define it what is your happiness it's going to be um it's not a destination you know it's going to be like a series of different things you know where boxes are ticked you know if all those boxes are ticked though are you then happy you can't tick them all Because life is so long and we keep discovering things to tick, you know, and they all have different meanings, you know, which is where there's the small boys journey and, you know, because if it was the small boys' boxes to tick, by now we'll be done.
[550] You understand?
[551] So there's boxes of an adult, like you're saying, you live here, and then you extend.
[552] And then, you know, upstairs, you keep.
[553] And then you're going to be like, actually, I need to buy another building.
[554] That's how it is.
[555] But all these things, we're never going to stop.
[556] I often think that, I was thinking there about advice.
[557] And, you know, a lot of that advice tends to come from our parents.
[558] But I often think that when we've come from a place of hardship, and I just think generally, I think this is a lot in my own life.
[559] um there's words that i wish i i said or could say now to my parents there's words that i wish i could say to my um my mother my father you spoke so lovingly at the beginning in this conversation about the role that your mother played in your life is your mother still with us yes she is yep i spoke to it on my way here she is young are there any words that you found difficult to say to her Um, not anymore, you know, I Love You was one of them, uh, because she, it was never part of our family as like an African family to have that kind of warmth and these kind of conversations, you know, um, even, even our hugs are still a little bit awkward, but they still hugs because it's never been their generation didn't do that you know they would show you and you would know your parents love you they in the best way they they will do it you you know and being a parent I am so much aware of how I want to teach my kids to be able to say it and like randomly hug them because I never had that growing up and then in the end we are the ones who come back and teach our parents you know no matter how awkward it gets you know teach them to say and then they learn even though it's like it's not something they know comes down we have a closing tradition on this podcast where the last guest asks a question for the next guest they write it in the book they don't know who they're writing it for the question that was written for you and it's funny they've written a question for you but they didn't know who they're writing it for which is the most amazing thing ever when you hear this question what is your favorite sound laughter because people laugh when they're happy and going back to what I said in the beginning I think personally that's what we're searching for as a human race we're just looking for happiness thank you thank you for being so generous with your time thank you for giving me some of the best nights of my life thank you for coming here inspiring me thank you for your vulnerability which I know will help so many people and thank you just for being a creative inspiration for me as I said I'm trying to DJ at the moment I've got my decks upstairs so I've read that you're looking for you know young South African talent so come get me The South African from Botswana.
[560] South of Africa.
[561] I know, I know.
[562] But yeah, thank you so much.
[563] It's been a pleasure.
[564] Thank you.
[565] Appreciate, appreciate the invitation.
[566] It was really, I was nervous about coming here.
[567] Why?
[568] You know, like, you know, opening up and but it worked out well.
[569] Thank you.
[570] Thanks.