259 - Fake Snow In Glendale

[0] This is exactly right.

[1] And welcome.

[2] To my favorite murder, the podcast.

[3] That's Georgia Hartster.

[4] And that's Karen Kilgariff.

[5] How's it going, everybody?

[6] How are you?

[7] How are your parents?

[8] How's your sister, your friends, your dog?

[9] Do you want to talk about your dog?

[10] Oh, well, just so happens.

[11] I have one now.

[12] And her name is Cookie as a little tribute to Elvis.

[13] and I think we fucking won the dog lottery.

[14] She's this little teeny tiny wire terrier.

[15] She's nine weeks old.

[16] She was found in the streets and Mutt Scouts rescued her.

[17] And I am, I just can't, I'm so happy.

[18] It's so, it turns out it's great having a puppy.

[19] It is.

[20] It's really exciting.

[21] They're very cute.

[22] Yeah.

[23] I just kind of am watching because Dottie's right over your shoulder.

[24] Oh, she's not so.

[25] And it's like she's, it's like she's looking, she's listening to you tell the story.

[26] And then she's just like, uh -huh.

[27] I'll be over here.

[28] Oh, do you love that puppy?

[29] Oh, it brings you joy.

[30] Then she just turned her back.

[31] She definitely is her back turned to me right now.

[32] And how's, how's Cookie doing with the dog?

[33] Cookie can't wait.

[34] She's definitely a chaser, so don't run.

[35] But Mimi's like excited.

[36] Mimi's, no, what am I talking about?

[37] Mimi is fine.

[38] She's an alpha.

[39] Doddy's trying to follow her lead.

[40] and it's been three days and they're already like kind of okay so I'm looking forward to it I like I mean they can always just go up high that's the thing that cats they have the good this the great advantage where it's like they're learning that's escape I can't wait till everyone's just in a fucking cuddle puddle but I'm gonna wait I know it takes it's when the barking starts yes yeah it's fucking it's and this is my first puppy And it's my first, like, dog that's mine, you know?

[41] Like, I had an ex that I lived with who had a dog and my brother had a dog.

[42] But this is, like, my first dog.

[43] Yeah.

[44] And it's the best.

[45] Yeah.

[46] It feels like, it feels like a, I definitely think there would be no issue with me getting a, like, certified, what's it called?

[47] When they take care of your, your anxiety.

[48] And you can bring them on planes.

[49] Emotional support.

[50] Yeah.

[51] Like, I feel like it's obvious.

[52] that's going to emotionally support me and in life.

[53] Great.

[54] You know what I mean?

[55] Fun.

[56] Lucky cookie.

[57] Yeah, make the plan.

[58] Make the plan.

[59] But I just feel like it brings me down a level of anxiety immediately, you know?

[60] So like, and she's tiny enough that I could bring her everywhere.

[61] So it's like, it's just going to, it's going to be helpful once we start leaving the house again.

[62] Yeah, right.

[63] These are your future plans post, your post -quarantine plans.

[64] That's right.

[65] of being the person that takes their dog everywhere.

[66] Yeah.

[67] It puts a blue vest on their dog.

[68] Oh, you mean like I thought I was in like a hoodie or like a flight bomber jacket.

[69] You mean like an emotional support.

[70] No, it just makes me think of this lady that we were in the, the, the, what do you call it?

[71] Great Cheesecake.

[72] Why?

[73] I want to call it the American Cheesecake Factory.

[74] Great Cheesecake mistake.

[75] I think it's called.

[76] What's it called?

[77] Cheesecake Factory.

[78] Oh, there's nothing before it.

[79] There's no great about it.

[80] There's nothing great.

[81] Except, I will say, come to think of it.

[82] I mean, honestly, those avocado egg girls are legit.

[83] Have you had them?

[84] Oh, you don't like avocado.

[85] Oh, no, they know what they're doing.

[86] They know what they're doing there.

[87] There's no, there's the reason it's fucking packed and you have to have one of those weird buzzers and stand around.

[88] We were there waiting for a table one time.

[89] And a lady walked in with this poodle with the blue vest on.

[90] And immediately started.

[91] yelling at everybody that it was her emotional support dog and I literally I looked at her like lady do not bring that over here like Los Angeles is chock full of these people where it's like entitlement I need to explain to you how incredibly my emotions look we're all at the cheesecake factory that we all have emotions no one's doing you don't need a pet you're just here I definitely won't be one of those people if I'm going to bring my dog to a dining situation I'm going to make sure that there's outdoor dining and dogs are allowed.

[92] And it's also not a global pandemic because I'm just going to stay home in that case.

[93] Yeah, no, you're talking about 2023.

[94] Yeah.

[95] And I hear you.

[96] I'm hearing it.

[97] I would never bring my dog to a cheesecake factory.

[98] This is my emotional support avocado egg roll and it is gone.

[99] So we're in a little blue vest.

[100] You know what's going to be great in 2023 is that people who need emotional support dogs for indoor restaurants, we can just you can order it and have it delivered to your emotional support indoors and your emotional support home and it ain't no thing it ain't no thing people will be no here's a thing crabby people like me won't give a shit but you could have a fucking emotional support donkey with hay in its mouth and I'd be like oh my god that's so cute I'm sorry about your feelings because it'll be so exciting to be in public and be in a restaurant that it'll be like anything goes.

[101] Now, is the hay in the emotional support donkey's mouth emotional support hay?

[102] Because that would be cute.

[103] Oh, yeah, that donkey is fucked up.

[104] That donkey is brought to fucking human places.

[105] Those fountains are dancing.

[106] What's happening?

[107] There's fake snow in Glendale at Christmas and why are we even at a mall in Christmas?

[108] It's like the worst idea.

[109] It's too packed.

[110] I'm so nervous.

[111] I'm just a donkey.

[112] I'm like going to get fucking reindeer horns put on my head and you're going to pass me up as a reindeer horn.

[113] going to put like children on me please are you going to make me go to j crew and try on those really narrow pants like i don't none of it please i just want to stay home and eat my emotional support hey please did you see that it actually hailed so hard it looked like it was snowing in the malibu canyon no yes like two days ago or three days ago can they handle mail in malibu i don't think so they've been through so much um they've had such a hard time.

[114] But it was really mind -blowing video.

[115] You should try to look at it up.

[116] I'm just saying that so that when you and I talk about how cold we are during this episode and the people in fucking Nome, Alaska are like shut up.

[117] We're like, no, but there was hail.

[118] You don't understand.

[119] I mean, the people one state over, and where is one state over?

[120] Oregon are like shut the fuck up, L .A. This is, but it's...

[121] Everybody.

[122] Everyone's colder than us.

[123] Always.

[124] Also, everyone wants us to shut up because of our emotional support.

[125] hail.

[126] It never ends with us.

[127] It's our emotional sport podcast.

[128] Deal with it.

[129] But it's really fucking cold.

[130] It's not that cold for us.

[131] It is.

[132] I think we're higher up and in the valley.

[133] And so you get a little, you get more cold.

[134] But listen, I'm always freezing my tits off.

[135] So it's just, I'm saying for Los Angeles, which has been a blazing oven for the last 11 months.

[136] Yeah.

[137] It's rough.

[138] Yeah.

[139] 53.

[140] I mean, I don't know.

[141] So what are you?

[142] I don't know.

[143] What are you doing to hibernate while you...

[144] So what are you doing this winter season?

[145] Can I ask you a question?

[146] And I know the answer is going to be no and I'm going to be angry because if it would...

[147] Or ask to me in your situation, I would be saying yes, always.

[148] Have you got in your hot tub one fucking time?

[149] It's like, what's this going to be?

[150] I know, right?

[151] No, but it's only because I don't really know how to turn it on.

[152] Yeah, that makes sense.

[153] I wouldn't, I wouldn't just even try to guess at all.

[154] It's like there's a series of buttons and buttons and my pool tech has shown me how to do it.

[155] That's what they're called.

[156] That's great.

[157] Good for them.

[158] All right.

[159] And he knows a ton of shit way more than me. And he showed me probably four times.

[160] And I can't.

[161] Every time I go over there, it's a brand new scenario.

[162] Can I make a suggestion?

[163] And this is write it down.

[164] Take a picture.

[165] Video it.

[166] Video it.

[167] That's a great.

[168] great idea.

[169] I think that, yeah, I've videoed some shit that I'm like, there's no way I would have remembered how to do this.

[170] And it's like, life changing.

[171] And it works and then you learn?

[172] Yeah.

[173] Actually, when I, well, yeah, yes, the end.

[174] You can't talk about it.

[175] Well, it just sounded like a non -sequitur.

[176] Is that a thing?

[177] That when I was taking drumming lessons.

[178] Oh, what?

[179] Non -sequator.

[180] What's it called?

[181] Oh, a non -sequitur.

[182] Thank you.

[183] I thought you meant a non -secreter.

[184] I was like, what in the fuck are you talking?

[185] It's almost like half and half of that thing.

[186] non -sequitur.

[187] Well, when I was learning drumming a million years ago, I just take, you know, an hour -long drumming class, and they teach me this whole thing.

[188] And I'd be like, great, I'm going to video you now.

[189] And that's the only way I would, like, I wouldn't remember anything from the class.

[190] I would just like practice by watching the video.

[191] Right.

[192] So whatever.

[193] That's why I was going to tell their story.

[194] It's not that interesting.

[195] No, of him doing it.

[196] That's why I was, that's why I was a non -secreter.

[197] This just wasn't that great.

[198] Nothing came with it.

[199] Nothing happened.

[200] I'm just saying, were you into that drumming teacher?

[201] Is that what we're actually talking about right now?

[202] Bless his heart.

[203] He was a sweetheart.

[204] There was no sexual chemistry.

[205] Bless his heart.

[206] Bless his heart.

[207] Do you want me to go into a corrections corner?

[208] Oh, please.

[209] I have one too.

[210] Okay, good.

[211] Yeah, because we haven't recorded in a while.

[212] So this is an old one.

[213] But from the last episode where where we did record, I was talking about how much I loved the show All Things Great and Small, which I continue to love and I continue to recommend.

[214] However.

[215] Oh, yeah.

[216] Problem is.

[217] Problem is.

[218] I was so proud because the season started in episode one in the train station in Glasgow, Scotland.

[219] Got it.

[220] Right.

[221] My sister city, because I lived there for three and a half months or something like that.

[222] So I get real, like, Scotland proud when I see Scottish stuff.

[223] I'm part of that.

[224] That's my.

[225] neighborhood and we've been there and we've been there since it's like not a foreign place well it's foreign but it's not a foreign place to us right and um yeah so i feel real like uh you know a special citizen anyhow uh so i explained this show and said that that the young james harriet gets on the train and takes it north into the scottish islands basically and didn't think twice about it And essentially the reason, and this is what they call confirmation bias, I told it that way, is because when I took the train in Scotland, I went north.

[226] So that's just like, that was my experience.

[227] So that must be what this TV show is showing.

[228] Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[229] I got a tweet from someone named Helen Liptrot, who literally just had this sentence.

[230] She just wrote the sentence, or they just wrote the sentence, all things great and small is set in Yorkshire.

[231] Bye.

[232] Oh, yeah, that's right.

[233] He takes the train south to England to Yorkshire to work.

[234] And that's where the entire incredibly famous book and television series is set in Yorkshire, England.

[235] So, Helen, my apologies, that was one of the, I don't know why, but it felt like one of the harshest corrections at all time because there was no interest, no passion.

[236] It was almost like, now I have to come and tell you this, even though.

[237] too.

[238] It's like no like it's all cool.

[239] I know that people get a bit mistook in all the time and you're from fucking California.

[240] But I wonder what like if we were like if someone from England were like it takes place in New York.

[241] We're like no fucking doesn't it takes place in Cape Cod.

[242] How do you not know that you're like a thing like that like what it would what the equivalent would be us?

[243] Well, we'd get that wrong too.

[244] That's true.

[245] The one thing we can really take into heart no matter what.

[246] If it's Canada, it's the U .S. And we don't fucking know.

[247] If it's Canada out, whatever, then good for you.

[248] All right.

[249] Well, my correction.

[250] So, Helen, Helen, my apologies.

[251] My correction, I think was actually really cool.

[252] It was like a learning experience for me. So remember how I was like making fun of microwaves for being that you could pre -program them from some, like, and you were like making your meatloaf on your way home from work.

[253] Sure.

[254] Sir, you turn on the microwave.

[255] Well, it turns out.

[256] That, so someone on Twitter or Instagram, I don't remember, no, Instagram called Badass Mother, and that's Bad With Two Bees, was like, hey, the reason that those are able to, the reason that those exist are for people who are visually impaired.

[257] And I was like, oh, what a great idea.

[258] I take it all back.

[259] And I'm happy to hear that.

[260] That's all.

[261] Yeah.

[262] It's not just some dumb fucking thing that that big microwave used to jack up the prices of microwaves and like make rich people feel okay about having a microwave.

[263] You know what I mean?

[264] Right.

[265] Yeah.

[266] Yeah.

[267] Okay, good to know.

[268] Should we talk briefly, spoiler -free, about the night soccer television show?

[269] It's been so long since I watched it, I feel like I have so many notes at how how good it was and like powerful, right?

[270] Yes.

[271] This is not.

[272] It was.

[273] I mean, yeah.

[274] It was so well done.

[275] It was people, here's the thing.

[276] True crime as a popular trend isn't going away anytime soon.

[277] And people are just getting better and better at it.

[278] That's right.

[279] And knowing what we actually want from it.

[280] That's a great point.

[281] It's really impressive.

[282] And this series, I don't know about you.

[283] I binged it all the night it came out.

[284] No, we didn't do that.

[285] But we didn't like.

[286] And Vince watched it too, which was like, which is always a good sign.

[287] He was like, I might not be able to get through this.

[288] Let's try it.

[289] And then the next day he was like, do you want to finish it?

[290] So that's always good.

[291] Yeah, he's willing to risk the more of it.

[292] I mean, the time and placeiness of it is one of my favorite things about the good truth where it's like, here's what it was like back then.

[293] And it's part of the reason everyone was terrified.

[294] And it's it was the first time that they were like, you know, we're just coming off of the hillside strangler.

[295] But this time people were like, you know, whatever the fuck is so good.

[296] It was amazing.

[297] Yeah.

[298] Yeah.

[299] It was.

[300] And the great Frank Salerno, the detective who.

[301] basically worked on every famous murder case in Los Angeles in the 70s and 80s is a huge part of it.

[302] And it's really cool to hear him talking and telling.

[303] And it was his case.

[304] Yeah.

[305] But then Bill Carilla coming in and being like, hey, I'm a young guy, but fuck you, here's what it is.

[306] Underdog City, smart as a fucking whip.

[307] And like, it wouldn't, I don't know if it would have been solved, at least not when it was without him at all, right?

[308] of course not no no no um no incredible yeah if you if you are looking and you haven't watched it yet which i i don't know i bet it got really good reviews people probably have watched it but definitely watch it it's it's a real binger it's unbelievable it's so fun too when you watch it a thing from your town or your name you know southern california i'm being like i fucking grew up with that report tony valdez oh my god that was my fucking news guy yeah and then soie ter i was i was was just amazed by she's the one who started the helicopter news reporting.

[309] Yeah.

[310] Fascinating.

[311] Like just such a cool, such a cool story.

[312] It's you learn a time.

[313] It like there's a lot.

[314] It's not just the crime.

[315] It's the culture around the crime.

[316] And it's and then there's a bunch of survivors, victims, families.

[317] Like it's told very, it's very full story.

[318] Yeah.

[319] It's not just, it's the way they're doing it these days.

[320] It's just beautifully done.

[321] Cool.

[322] What else are you watching?

[323] Well, I, this is an old recommendation.

[324] And I think people told us this like the first time we went to the UK and this got recommended.

[325] I've known about it for a while, but I never found it.

[326] It's called Crime Story and it's on Amazon.

[327] And it's from the, I think, late 80s or early 90s.

[328] It's British.

[329] and they're basically I think they're hour long I can't remember half hour hour hour but they're basically a dramatized reenactment of a crime like beginning to end and it's like you're watching almost almost like a soap opera kind of feel but it's very real no narration no not at all it's just like an episode of something that you would see except for there's no detective that comes in that's like it's me inspector more so whatever it's just all the people of the time it's all real and there's i think there's six or maybe eight and i watched all of those wow because it was just like oh my god this really happened this really happened in each one and they're really amazing and you know crazy and like we don't like dramatic reenactments of crimes you know like i feel like we're all a little sick of that and it's all overdone and overdramatic but if this one does it well then that's like a huge deal.

[330] Well, because it's not a reenactment.

[331] Reenactment isn't accurate.

[332] It's a, it's a dramatized episodic of a true story.

[333] Got it.

[334] So they actually, in their great British way, produce it really well, and there's nothing reenact many about it.

[335] Cool.

[336] Okay.

[337] Yeah, it's great.

[338] It's like, it's very compelling, good storytelling.

[339] Okay.

[340] Um, let's see.

[341] What am I, uh, I just looked down on my notes and saw that I wrote down the Korean translation, or our book came out in translation translated in Korean and the Are books in Korea?

[342] Did you get the copies of it?

[343] That's the crazy.

[344] It's beautiful.

[345] It has a really fascinating cover.

[346] We should post that so people can see.

[347] They're posted on Instagram and the translation for Stay Sexy and Don't Get Murdered.

[348] And then the tagline is be a selfish bitch.

[349] Realistic fucking advice from your cool sisters.

[350] Can you imagine?

[351] There's some Korean 26 -year -old girl who's like in the books.

[352] You're like, what?

[353] Be a selfish bitch.

[354] Get over here.

[355] I think this should be the name of whatever next book we write.

[356] But I don't know if that would sell.

[357] I don't know if I could see.

[358] But it already is the name of a book we wrote.

[359] Hey, you're right.

[360] You know what?

[361] Your wish has come true.

[362] Your wish is granted.

[363] Thank you.

[364] Oh, have you been watching season four, the new season of search party?

[365] No, I'm behind on search party Oh my fucking season after season This show Delivers for me Like it is regularly The best fucking episode of anything I've seen And I'm so obsessed with it The new season is incredible as always Hold on one second Let me Let me look this up Really quick Okay so of course John Early Is like one of my favorite fucking and him and Meredith Hagner are like the fucking best comedy duo ever.

[366] But then in this season, Cole Escola, is that how you say it?

[367] Yeah, he was one of my other, him and generally my favorite comedic actors ever.

[368] And he has plays a prominent role in it.

[369] And it's just twisted.

[370] It reminds me of misery kind of.

[371] It's just like so good.

[372] It just like delivers on every front for me. I think it's one of the best shows.

[373] I have to catch up because like it, when it first came out, I felt like you saw it everywhere and maybe it was just because, like, we were outside.

[374] So I feel like it snuck by me that were in season four already.

[375] They moved it to a new network.

[376] So I wonder if like that might be part of it.

[377] But it's on, is it?

[378] Oh, it's on HBO Max now.

[379] Oh, cool.

[380] So that's cool.

[381] But I mean, please just like binge it.

[382] And, like, I'm so, Vince told me he hadn't seen season one and I got excited that I got to watch it again because I've just absolutely fucking love it.

[383] That's it.

[384] Are you, are you into it?

[385] I'm not that big of a fan of it, but I slog through it.

[386] But you got through that amazing show.

[387] Because I love Eliat Chakrat.

[388] What else?

[389] Yeah, everybody on that show is so good.

[390] Oh, I was going to tell you about last night.

[391] My friend Albertina, shout out.

[392] recommended this show that's on Hulu and I what I recommend right now is that you do not try to read anything about it and you do not try to look into it in any way.

[393] It's called in and of itself.

[394] I heard the same fucking thing.

[395] Don't read about it.

[396] Don't read about it.

[397] Just watch it.

[398] It's on Hulu.

[399] In and of itself.

[400] It's basically a it was a play.

[401] And it was taped and so whatever.

[402] So it's a little bit like going to a live performance, which is amazing.

[403] And this is all I'll say about it.

[404] It starts by saying, please turn off your phone.

[405] Fun.

[406] And I was laying on the couch, of course, staring at my phone while I was waiting for this thing to start.

[407] And I literally was like, yes, I will.

[408] I've been waiting for someone to say that to me for nine fucking months.

[409] But also, I don't want to overhype it because I feel like the neutrality of not being sure and not having people say anything.

[410] one way or the other about it is the best part and then you can just go have your own experience.

[411] Yeah, I definitely hyped up search party, but I feel like it lives up to it where it's like, get excited.

[412] Search party is the fucking greatest.

[413] And that's like you can rely on it and it's amazing.

[414] But you don't, if you go watch it, like people have already seen it.

[415] I love it.

[416] So it's like an immersive experience kind of.

[417] I don't know why that.

[418] I just really like that phrase.

[419] Yes.

[420] Well, yes.

[421] I think ultimately when it happened, it was.

[422] Oh, um, my.

[423] My friend made a movie and you know when your friends make a thing and you're like that guy made a thing and then you watch it and you're like holy shit that guy was more i should talk to him or at parties because i really tell which isn't it's actually a friend that i really like and i talk to at parties a lot because you can you're at a party and you're awkward and you're like oh thank god curtnails here i can fucking have a conversation and like hide with someone so my friend curtniel made a movie which is like you quite an introduction thank you you make movies i didn't know and it's called derrick's dead it's on amazon um And it's so charming and sweet.

[424] And Kurt stars in it and like wrote it.

[425] He probably directed it.

[426] And I was like, oh, fuck, you're so talented.

[427] I don't.

[428] And Kyle Mazzono's in it.

[429] And she is the guest on, do you need to write this?

[430] Shut the fuck up.

[431] She comes to the door and delivers ashes.

[432] She's so funny.

[433] She's so deadpan in it.

[434] Yeah.

[435] She's great.

[436] Derek's dead.

[437] I highly recommend it.

[438] It's like, it's like charming and fun to watch, you know?

[439] Where is it playing?

[440] Amazon.

[441] And like YouTube and shit.

[442] Yeah, it's like, it's great.

[443] So good job.

[444] Cool.

[445] Can't wait to see you at a fucking party again someday.

[446] Okay, so can I tell you about this book that I listened to on a fuck man on, it was an audio book.

[447] And my friend Allison Fields recommended it to me. And it is called Attached.

[448] And the authors are Amir Levine and Rachel S .F. Heller.

[449] and it is one of those fucking self -help book where you're listening to it and you're like, holy shit, this is the thing I needed to hear.

[450] And it's basically about everybody, people's different attachment styles.

[451] So either you're an anxious attached, you're an avoidant attachment, anxious attachment, avoidant attachment, or secure attachment.

[452] Who the fuck are you?

[453] Secure.

[454] I mean, show off.

[455] That's like, yeah.

[456] those are like yeah but if you are in any way kind of like having a hard time with either relationships dating where you think you're at writing this down what you're trying to do it is un -fucking believable it's called unattached no no no it's called attached that's avoided I'm obviously the most what are you secure I'm I'm mostly anxious.

[457] Okay.

[458] Okay.

[459] Attached.

[460] Thank you for even suggesting that.

[461] It's a wonderful compliment.

[462] I mean, it's about a bunch of different things.

[463] And I think it's, I was talking to my therapist about it this morning.

[464] She's like, oh, but it's not, everybody's not all one thing.

[465] You can be one thing some days.

[466] Three categories of people, of course.

[467] Yes.

[468] It's not about like, I know, I'm an introvert.

[469] Well, I'm an extrovert or whatever.

[470] It's like we're all, we all contain multitudes.

[471] But the theory is behind it because essentially, and I'll bring.

[472] briefly tell you this.

[473] But they basically say if you're an anxious attachment person, then the best kind of person you can be with, obviously, is secure.

[474] Definitely.

[475] Because they don't, they don't, they don't, right?

[476] It's me and Vince.

[477] Hi, sure.

[478] Nice to me. They don't get defensive.

[479] You go through your thing.

[480] They hang out and wait for you, whatever.

[481] Dude.

[482] But oftentimes, anxious attachment are only attracted to avoidance, who are the people who sit there doing everything to get away from you.

[483] and you keep going and after a while that's what love feels like to you because it's a terrible when they finally give you a little you're like rewarded for your hard work which i think so many women are in this cycle right now where they think this is what love feels like this is what excitement this is whatever and when you're when you first kind of start hanging out with a secure person yeah it's there's no chemistry because they're just like yeah i'm super into you what's going on it's almost like you You think you're bored, but it's not boredom.

[484] It's, it's, um, reliability.

[485] You're learning how to be love.

[486] And can I add, because Vince is totally secure.

[487] I have anxious attachment.

[488] It really always helped that he was like that.

[489] When, when someone doesn't flip, when you don't, when someone doesn't fight with you or flip out with you or get upset that you are jealous or these, you think that they aren't passionate and don't love you as much.

[490] the only way you understand love is by fight by having these things and it's always this and which is totally me and the guys I did when I was young and then you realize right that like yep it just means they have their shit together and they love you enough that they know that that's not who you are you're just kind of having a constant panic attack that you're not worthy of the love that you're like why are they just being cool with me all the time you know what I mean?

[491] Did you write this book which is basically it's like you're you get trigger and then you're well when you don't think you're worthy of love and someone treats you like you are you think that they're fucking with you or they're lying or they're stupid or something's wrong with them or they're tricking you yeah did I say tricking you right okay sorry and then you also get mad because essentially it's you're fucked up and you have to admit you're fucked up yeah and then that's that thing where if you're with someone else that's fucked up you can always be like look how fucked up instead of of the person that's just hanging out where you're like, I'm always wrong.

[492] It's, it's so frustrating.

[493] So anyway, if you are in that spot attached, it's, it's such an amazing, you're married.

[494] We're in therapy.

[495] I mean, we have a career relationship.

[496] We're in therapy because of these reasons.

[497] And it is like, but I mean, but you're also in the, the ideal scenario where because people who are in these different places can grow out into other places.

[498] You know what?

[499] He wouldn't let, he wouldn't let me push him.

[500] him away in the beginning.

[501] You know what I mean?

[502] Like he wouldn't let me. He got, he stood up for himself and was like, I'm not going to hook up with another girl and you need to stop treating me like I'm going to.

[503] And you're, and then I was like, I'm scared of that because if you're open about it and you're with someone, it's okay.

[504] But it's like, it's scary.

[505] Getting to the place where you know you're safe to actually tell those stories and be honest about your feelings is really hard.

[506] That's my, that's my recommendation.

[507] It's that it's that good, though.

[508] Like, you're excited because it's that good.

[509] And just listen to it.

[510] I mean, you know what you're going to hear, but the shit, it just feels so nice to hear it.

[511] Yeah.

[512] That sounds great.

[513] Oh, should we just give a quick shout out to Kyle Russell, who did the lip sync from the last episode that is still, the whole thing is hilarious?

[514] I don't know why lip sinks are so fucking funny, but they are.

[515] But the very end when I say, is that a fire?

[516] and you go, what?

[517] Like, really high.

[518] Yeah.

[519] The way he does it is.

[520] So it's, thank you, Kyle.

[521] That was such a delightful little thing.

[522] So good.

[523] You know, he, he nails our facial expressions in a way that's like, that makes it so real.

[524] Like, like, I didn't think about the fact that when I said, what?

[525] It was off, Mike until he like turned his, it's just like, some of these fucking TikTokers, man, are brilliant.

[526] They know their shit.

[527] They know their shit.

[528] The only thing I'm worried about is he had glasses on for you, and I wonder if he thinks I'm your voice and your mind.

[529] Excuse me, 20 fucking 20 over here.

[530] The only person.

[531] This girl doesn't need glasses.

[532] Can I just tell you?

[533] Don't even pretend.

[534] The only person in my family for generations of Jews that have not needed glasses.

[535] And I. Really?

[536] Yeah.

[537] Why?

[538] I don't know.

[539] I probably ate paint chips as a kid.

[540] And it just gave me fucking supersonic sight or some shit.

[541] licked my cat one too many times and got like some supersonic you took that lead poisoning and you fucking made it work for your eyes turns out it's not all bad the government get out of my paint chips bitch I want to eat out what if this was an ad for paint chips a super stealth ad for like that's our new merch paint chips had promo code murder they're coming back is their tagline they're coming back let it gas they were wrong they were wrong to Dick him away.

[542] Let it gasoline.

[543] It's bad, baby.

[544] Asbestos, you never saw it coming.

[545] No, more lethal than ever.

[546] It's like forbidden merch.

[547] That's our new forbidden merch line.

[548] Okay, fuck you.

[549] Fuck you, the FDA.

[550] A .k .a. And then they never got out of prison, Karen and Georgia.

[551] We killed all those children with the paint ships.

[552] It was wrong.

[553] toxic mold have you allegedly have you read the good news about toxic mold black mold get it in your system um all right should you do a little news should we tighten our shit up about that stuff yeah or were you going to do a speaking of of something else no it's in this chitchat um okay uh we have a podcast network because we're business women turns out sure someone told us and we said Okay.

[554] And then we made an empire.

[555] Well, of all the many shows we have, there's a couple great ones.

[556] First of all, I said no gifts has the great comedian, actress, an America sweetheart, Naomi Perrigan on it.

[557] And she is so fucking hilarious.

[558] She was, I retweeted a video that she put out on her inauguration day where she was like, Donald Trump.

[559] bye bitch my pants bye bitch and she does like a 35 second song by bitching everyone from the last administration which is pretty exciting so yeah I said no guess is going to be a banger this week hey you know you know what other podcast we have at work just just a little podcast called the per cast motherfuckers um Stephen Ray Morris and Sarah have justina Ireland on the show this week, and she's the author of the new Star Wars book, Test of Courage, which I think is such a, like, obsessive, cool thing, right?

[560] People love Star Wars.

[561] It's so good.

[562] It's so much fun.

[563] What kind of cat does she have?

[564] She has two cats named Jeff and Jack, and then a dog named Sterling, and they all get along together, and it's really sweet.

[565] I need tips and tricks, so that sounds perfect.

[566] Goals.

[567] For the tips and tricks.

[568] Goals.

[569] Jack and Sterling cuddle up together, and it's really sweet.

[570] sweet.

[571] Okay.

[572] I'm there.

[573] That's where you want to be.

[574] We also have had two premieres this week, which is very exciting.

[575] The hilarious comedy podcast, Lady to Lady, I'll just do my own.

[576] I'm the guest on Lady to Lady.

[577] For their premiere episode on the Exactly Right Network.

[578] They've been doing it for, I think, seven years.

[579] A long time.

[580] They've been killing it out there, and we brought them home to exactly right.

[581] We're so excited.

[582] And we talk about one of my favorite things that I've ever talked to anybody about, which is the attempted cancellation of Grandpa Joe from Charlie and the Chocolate Factory.

[583] What?

[584] Is that a thing?

[585] Yeah, it's a very funny conversation.

[586] And those guys are the best and so funny.

[587] Okay.

[588] The other, what's it called, premiere we have is the podcast 10fold more wicked, which season one was incredible and now.

[589] Season two is out, and host Kate Winkler -Dawson is dropping a new episode every Monday, and season two is called The Body Snatcher, and it's about Burke and Hare, who we've covered before is such a fascinating story.

[590] They're the most famous grave robbers of all time, and they never actually grobbed a rave.

[591] Oh, shit.

[592] They actually did it in more an affair.

[593] That's what you used to do is grob in that raves.

[594] And so it's a really fascinating story.

[595] these are really shitty people and it's old -timey and it's just a great listen.

[596] So check that out.

[597] Tenfold more wicked.

[598] And then if you go to like exactly right the network page on iTunes, all of our podcasts are on there.

[599] There's so many fucking good ones.

[600] Anything you're interested in, like whether it's true crime or comedy or movies or, you know, law and order SVU, you're going to find something that you love there and cool people.

[601] Yeah, exactly right, ladies and gentlemen.

[602] oh and also we just came out with our own line of temporary tattoos while we're talking about the good news you want to hear the good news temporary tattoos are in everybody i feel like karen and i are going to have to cover up our lower back tattoos with our own podcast temporary tattoos probably how do you make a tramp stamp more shameful oh you put your own podcast temporary tattoo on top of you as a grown -up purposely put yet another thing on top of the shame that you've been covering in high from boyfriends and not just anything but but advertising for your own podcast that's like wearing the band's shirt to the show but you're in the band and you're wearing your own which apparently in the 70s bands used to do all the time like you see a band a band picture from like 1978 everyone's just like hey fucking led zeppelin like wearing their own shirt i guess that makes sense on like selling merch level and i do think that if i saw a comic wearing their own shirt while they're doing stand -up, I would think it's pretty funny.

[603] That is funny.

[604] Right?

[605] Like Chris Fairbanks in his own merch would be pretty fucking hilarious.

[606] I mean, the levels of irony are unmistakably hilarious.

[607] Is it irony or is it you being this?

[608] But if you're being that, then maybe on top of it, it's ironica.

[609] You know what I mean?

[610] What?

[611] Did I take Adderall today?

[612] No. Just two.

[613] All right.

[614] Is it time?

[615] to actually do the show 42 minutes.

[616] Excuse me. Yeah, Stephen.

[617] Show time.

[618] Show time.

[619] Who's first, Stephen?

[620] It's dealer's choice, because last week was a throwback where there wasn't any specific story, so it's up to you.

[621] Nah, nah, nah, nah, nah, nah.

[622] Let's do, let's pick, like, have Stephen pick a number and just do it like that.

[623] Okay.

[624] Between one and ten?

[625] Sure.

[626] Five.

[627] Wait, no, seven.

[628] You just did that wrong.

[629] I know, seven, sorry.

[630] No, I'm not supposed to tell.

[631] number, Stephen.

[632] Why would you pick the number?

[633] Sorry, you're saying, I pick a number and then you guess.

[634] Steven, did you just get super excited to pick a number?

[635] You were just like seven.

[636] Seven.

[637] Yes, I got excited.

[638] Okay, let's now do it between 10 and 20.

[639] It's going to be seven.

[640] Okay.

[641] I have a number.

[642] And it can't be seven.

[643] Yeah.

[644] Or have a seven in it.

[645] Yep.

[646] Okay.

[647] Let's say one number at the same time.

[648] One, two, three.

[649] 12.

[650] Georgia got it, 12.

[651] I get a pick that Karen goes first.

[652] Okay, I'll go first.

[653] Karen, you know I'm all about vintage shopping.

[654] Absolutely.

[655] And when you say vintage, you mean when you physically drive to a store and actually purchase something with cash.

[656] Exactly.

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[672] That's Shopify .com slash murder.

[673] Goodbye.

[674] Okay.

[675] So my story's a little bit out of left field, but I've been reading a lot about psychiatry lately.

[676] It's kind of been something I've been obsessed with.

[677] So I thought, let's just do the history of lobotomies and see how that goes.

[678] Wow.

[679] Okay.

[680] He did kill.

[681] Sure.

[682] There were a lot of people killed.

[683] So it's a horrible, horrible history and stories.

[684] That's right.

[685] Absolutely fits perfectly.

[686] And it's complex.

[687] So I got a bunch of information from this really great PBS documentary called the lobotomist.

[688] A Wall Street Journal video called the lobotomy files and all things considered story.

[689] called My Lobotomy, hosted by Howard Dulley, which I highly recommend.

[690] The Journal of Neurosurgery article by James P. Caruso and Jason P. Shannon Roach, and a KNOJI article by Carol Roach, How Stuff Works article by Shannon Freeman, a BBC article by Hugh Levinson, an article of the history collection, NCBI .com article by Thomas A. Ban, Wikipedia.

[691] And then there's a podcast called Behind the Bastards, which is great.

[692] It's hosted by Robert Evans.

[693] And this episode, there's a two -part lobotomy episode, a lot of history.

[694] And it's co, it's, uh, the, the guest is Daniel Van Kirk.

[695] Who's so funny.

[696] Do you know Robert Evans?

[697] Karen?

[698] He's like a comedian.

[699] No, but I've heard about behind the bastards.

[700] A lot of people like that podcast and have been talking about it.

[701] It's fun and funny.

[702] All right.

[703] So before there were lobotomies, there was a Swiss psychiatrist.

[704] And, you know, but I've heard about behind the bastards.

[705] And 1988 named Gottlieb Berkhardt.

[706] He had never performed surgery before, but he believed that mental illness is caused by the actual structure of the brain.

[707] And all you have to do was to get in there and take out the bad parts to get things in the right order as if it was like a car engine and you're just like ripping out the wires that aren't necessary, even though you don't really understand what the wires are for.

[708] So he takes six of his patients with varying degrees of like mania, dementia, and paranoia, and he cuts out chunks of their cerebral cortex, which is the thin layer that covers the brain.

[709] And not surprisingly, one patient goes into convulsions and dies.

[710] One seems better, but then takes his own life.

[711] Two of them were exactly the same, which is actually crazy, considering an amateur surgeon had cut their fucking brain.

[712] And two simply got, quote, quieter.

[713] His systematic attempt at humans.

[714] psychosurgery performed in the 1880s through 1890s are experimental surgical forays and they're largely condemned by psychiatrists at the time and they all like basically mock him to the point that he gives up thankfully on the whole thing.

[715] And in a subsequent decade, psychosurgery is attempted only once in a blue moon.

[716] But fast forward to the mid -1930s and Portuguese neurologist Igos Monez, who has similar beliefs as Burkhart, but as opposed to removing pieces of the brain, he leans more towards cutting the frontal lobe neural connections.

[717] So the frontal lobe is basically our control panel for emotions, for problem solving, memory, language, judgment, and all the sexual desires and stuff.

[718] It's the hardware that controls our personality.

[719] So Mona's thinks that this is where all the problems are.

[720] and at the time there are some Yale physiologists who take out the frontal lobes of chimpanzees and find that they actually chill out and they are like more easily led and they do what you tell them to do.

[721] So Mona's is into this.

[722] He comes up with the idea that maybe if you take out some of the white fibers from the frontal lobe on an actual human, it could have a similar effect.

[723] So he enlists a colleague name Al Nita Limo to test out his new, what he calls a leukotomy, like on 20 people who suffer from schizophrenia, anxiety, insomnia, hallucinations, and depression with a first surgery being done on a 63 -year -old woman taking small corings of the patient's frontal lobes.

[724] So this is like a hardcore surgery where they like drill into your head.

[725] And this woman definitely seems, you know, what they call more well adjusted.

[726] And all in all, 14 out of the 20 are reported as being initially cured or improved according to their standards.

[727] So that doesn't, it's not, you know, kid tested, mother approved.

[728] It's just like basic fucking, hey, they're better.

[729] So Monas couldn't do these himself since he had gout, which left his hands unusable.

[730] So he just told Lima what to do.

[731] And later they start cutting holes in the skull.

[732] Okay, here it gets gross, trigger warning.

[733] and inserting a wire loop into the brain and rotating it around just to break up the white matter connections.

[734] Some people are fine with this because it becomes actually pretty popular at the time enough to win him the Nobel Prize in 1949.

[735] But he catches heat for the procedure because other people in the medical community are like, dude, you're not looking at the long -term effects of this or he's also not following up with any patients.

[736] and he's barely even keeping track of any of his patient's information.

[737] So you probably shouldn't be doing this.

[738] Up until his point, the procedure is still referred to as a prefrontal lecotomy.

[739] So enter Walter Jackson Freeman the second, who'd become known as the father of what he coined the lobotomy.

[740] Walter Freeman was born November 14th, 1895, and he raised in Philadelphia, Pennsylvania.

[741] his grandfather, William Williams Keene, I'm going to guess it's just William Keene, was a well -known surgeon during the Civil War, so he's like respected and shit.

[742] And his father was also a very successful doctor, although it said that his dad hated being a doctor, hated his patients, and urged his son not to enter the medical field because it sucked.

[743] So despite this, the young and super smart Walter Jackson Freeman the second, Dr. Freeman attended Yale University beginning in 1912 and graduated in 1916 and he was just 21 years old.

[744] So he was very bright.

[745] He then moved to study neurology at the University of Pennsylvania Medical School.

[746] And while there, he studied the work of the student named William Spiller.

[747] And he was doing groundbreaking work in the new field of the neurological sciences and is credited by many in the world of psychology as being the founder of neurology.

[748] He earned his Ph .D. in neuropathology.

[749] And in 1924, Dr. Freeman relocates to Washington, D .C., and starts practicing as the first neurologist in the city.

[750] So this is like a brand new science.

[751] He gets a job at St. Elizabeth, which is then one of the nation's largest hospitals for the mental ill. And at 28 years old, he's the hospital's youngest laboratory director in history.

[752] Like, what were we doing at 28 years old?

[753] is not this.

[754] To his horror though, and like, you know, to his credit, he sees what's going on at St. Elizabeth, and he's just horrified by it.

[755] He finds an institution that was essentially a dumping ground for the mentally ill. Patients here were suffering from a wide range of mental ailments.

[756] I mean, we're talking just depression and dementia and psychosis, all levels of mental illness.

[757] And a lot of them are just families not knowing what else to do with their family member and dumping them here or they're not fitting into society and dumping them here.

[758] They're not following rules, but also the severely mental ill who, you know, needed treatment.

[759] But unfortunately, there really wasn't a ton of treatments at the time.

[760] So everyone's just lumped together and they're housed, not treated.

[761] There was no serious, reliable treatment at the time, just experimental medications and procedures that had very little success rates, you know, and we're talking electric shock therapy.

[762] We're talking freezing cold baths.

[763] And then they would just be restrained or, you know, left naked to, so they wouldn't hurt themselves, quote unquote, and left in rooms.

[764] It was just medieval.

[765] I mean, your mom probably witnessed some of this in the beginning of her career, right?

[766] Yeah.

[767] And that's why she got into it is because she had a relative who was schizophrenic.

[768] And, had there was kind of no help for her.

[769] And that was, yeah, it's, it's a really, really dark.

[770] Yeah, it's so hard.

[771] Definitely.

[772] So these hospitals, which were all over the country, were basically warehouses used to keep these people out of society's way.

[773] So in a way, Dr. Freeman initially, you know, was, had his heart in the right place.

[774] He saw a problem.

[775] And he instead of just wanting to study it for decades and decades, he wanted to solve it.

[776] You know, he had this like cockiness in that way.

[777] And so seeing these thousands and thousands of people who were suffering, he wanted them to no longer live such hopeless lives and in horrible conditions.

[778] But it seems like because he was, he was a super cocky person based on all accounts.

[779] And perhaps a bit of a sociopath, depending on who you talk to, he didn't really think things through.

[780] Like the means of the end was not was more important than the end you know what I mean and he was very lenient on the meaning of success um as far as treatments went so Dr. Freeman was also a strange dude colorful character to me he looks like a nebishy uh Anton LeVay from the church of Satan oh okay is the church of Satan or quite a combination yeah it is um like pointy goatee dark hair you know he had he had a look book.

[781] And he's known for being a bit of a show -off as well.

[782] In the book, The Lobotomist, the author Jack L. High, tells a story about a dude who comes to Dr. Freeman for help when he gets, somehow gets a metal ring stuck around his dick.

[783] Sounds like something sexual was going on, got a dick.

[784] Or he was just bored.

[785] You don't know.

[786] Fair enough.

[787] I mean, who knows?

[788] yeah um so dr freeman files the ring off um gets the ring off the patient for some fucking reason wants the ring back you know it's a keepsake and sure dr freeman's like nope you can't have it back it's now a surgical specimen fucking finders keepers or whatever so dr freeman keeps the ring he has a jeweler put it back together he has it engraved with his family's crest and wears it on a gold chain around his neck for quote many years.

[789] What?

[790] Uh -huh.

[791] So this is now, so picture a nevishy, Anton LeVay with a dick ring around his neck with his family, all of the things I just said.

[792] Yeah.

[793] Also, while working at Georgetown and George Washington University, all the students flocked to his lectures in classes and stuff because he had these performance -based autopsies that were.

[794] described as, quote, theatrical.

[795] He starts wearing a big hat.

[796] He's got the goatee.

[797] He carries a cane.

[798] Sorry.

[799] Do you know what kind of hat?

[800] No. It could be a fucking clown's hat.

[801] I don't know.

[802] I mean, I would assume at the time it's like a, you know what I mean?

[803] Like a, I don't know.

[804] I'm sure we'll put a photo up of him.

[805] It's not really.

[806] Cowboy?

[807] I don't think cowboy hats.

[808] It's just any hat is inappropriate in an autopsy.

[809] it's insane there's not one I could name that would somehow be okay except for that little blue surgeon's cap that just sits right on there yeah yeah that's all I'm looking for but I don't think that's what would draw the teens or the students in no watching it and then he carries a cane just because he thinks it looks cool you know like people who wear glasses that don't actually have any prescription to them and of course he continues to showcase his gold dick ring and he wears gold chains on the outside of his medical clothing as well.

[810] So Dr. Okay.

[811] Here we go.

[812] Dr. Freeman had idolized the dude earlier, Dr. Moniz, who had become a mentor to him and who Freeman actually calls what it translates to his dear master.

[813] So he's like obsessed with this dude and like what he was doing for neuroscience.

[814] And he modifies Monies's procedure and renames it the lobotomy.

[815] At some point, Dr. Freeman loses.

[816] his license to perform surgery after a patient dies on the operating table.

[817] So, like, you better fucking quit it.

[818] And he's like, I will.

[819] I won't do it myself.

[820] I'm going to get a friend to do it for me instead.

[821] So to legally perform his new treatment, he has to enlist the help of fellow neurosurgeon James Watts as a research partner.

[822] So he's basically having this guy, Watts, do the procedure while he oversees it and tells him what to do, because he's not allowed to touch patients, which should be a red, like, if you can't touch patients, it should be a pretty big, should be a period on your career, you know.

[823] It's pretty, it's pretty integral to a doctor's job.

[824] So if you're not allowed to, you know, how about a review board or somebody steps in somewhere?

[825] Let's put an addendum to your fucking firing papers.

[826] Also, you cannot be in the room.

[827] All right.

[828] So on September 14th, 1936 at George Washington University, Freeman directed Watts through the very first prefrontal lobotomy in the United States on a housewife named Alice Hood Hammett of Topeka, Kansas.

[829] She had struggled with depression.

[830] She tries to back out of the procedure.

[831] She actually doesn't want to do it because she doesn't want her head shaved, which is one of the things they had to do because they were still getting into the skull.

[832] And that's one of her anxieties is losing her hair.

[833] So she's like adamant that she doesn't want to happen.

[834] So Freeman promises her he'll only shave a small area.

[835] They put her to sleep against her will and then shave a large portion of her head anyway.

[836] So this guy was not like he wanted to help people, but it seemed like not for the right reasons.

[837] It had nothing to do with them.

[838] You know what I mean?

[839] He wanted to help people, but it wasn't based on what they told him they needed or they didn't get to have a say it.

[840] That's the part that like in all of this is that you know how like Cropsy starts out and it's in that it's at that state hospital that got you know, the news reporters went in like there's so much of that kind of like losing your own agency.

[841] Yeah.

[842] Yeah.

[843] Have these issues and doctors like the era where it was kind of like the doctors said it.

[844] Right.

[845] So then you get no say.

[846] It's just very I yeah.

[847] It's very troubling.

[848] It's very upsetting.

[849] And it's also, what was I going to say?

[850] Yeah, it's, there's no other cure.

[851] There's no cure for depression.

[852] There's no treatment, not cure, of course, but there's no treatment for depression then.

[853] Like, this is it.

[854] And they probably were like, this is the only way they're going to get back to a normal life.

[855] And unfortunately, yeah, was the decision of the people who were quote unquote sane to, to allow these things to happen to their family members.

[856] Same, you know, whatever, but they have this agenda.

[857] That's the creepy part is like they have this.

[858] agenda of getting their research, you know, like validated somehow or being a rising up in the ranks, whatever it was.

[859] I mean, yeah.

[860] There's no checks and balances, it seems like.

[861] You should be able to go, I don't want to do this anymore and that should count.

[862] Yeah.

[863] And, you know, that's ridiculous.

[864] Or yeah, I'm depressed, but I can still function in society or no, I don't want to get married and have babies, but that doesn't mean, you know, it's like depression also meant something different during those times than it does today or mania or psychosis, you know, was defined as just someone being defiant to, you know, the normal, the norms of the day.

[865] So after, so in under an hour, still using an older procedure, she is lobotomized.

[866] And after she wakes up, she claims to be, quote, happy and doesn't even care that her head was shaved anymore.

[867] So it's like, that's a success.

[868] She's not worried about her head shaved being anymore, her head being shaped anymore, which is like a loose definition on success, right?

[869] But after about a week, she can't speak very well and acts disoriented and agitated all the time.

[870] And the cocky Dr. Freeman still thinks he did an awesome job and declares her case of success and starts getting attention in publications like the Saturday Evening Post, who reports that, quote, A world that once seen the abode of misery, cruelty, and hate is now radiant with sunshine.

[871] and kindness.

[872] By November, only two months after performing their first lobotomy surgery, Freeman and Watts had already worked over 20 cases, including several follow -up operations.

[873] And by 1942, the due had performed over 200 lobotomy procedures and had published results claiming 63 % of patients had improved, 24 were reported to be unchanged, and 14 % were worse after surgery.

[874] That's a lot of people.

[875] Then in 1946, after almost 10 years of performing lobotomies, Freeman begins performing what most people know today as the classical lobotomy, aka the transorbital lobotomy.

[876] So Freeman heard of a doctor in Italy named Amaro Fimberti, who operated on the brain through his patient's eye sockets.

[877] So instead of drilling into their head, they were able to access the brain without, you know, drilling under the skull.

[878] So instead of taking corings from the frontal lobes, which like you had to drill, it was like a huge procedure and surgical thing and like inpatient situation.

[879] Freeman's procedure severed the connection between the frontal lobes and the thalamus.

[880] So Freeman formulates a new procedure called the transorbital lobotomy, aka the ice pick lobotomy, which is all the photos you see nowadays from back then are basically with the fucking picks coming out of their eyes is that.

[881] So this procedure is done by first making the patient unconscious via electric shock, which in and of itself is traumatic, I would assume.

[882] And then inserting a metal pick, which he calls an orbit cloths into the corner of each eye socket, hammering it through the thin bone there with a metal mallet.

[883] The word crunch comes up a lot, which is fucking creepy.

[884] And then moving it back and forth, severing the connections to the pre -functional cortex and the frontal lobes of the brain, scraping the white matter until it's no longer functional.

[885] Then they do the same thing through the other eye.

[886] It sounds horrific.

[887] It fucked a lot.

[888] 14 % of people being, you know, not taking it well is really bad.

[889] But it's not to say that there aren't some procedures that aren't actually successful.

[890] Like when Dr. Freeman performs the very first actual.

[891] lobotomy in the transorbital ice pick and mallet style in 1946 on a housewife named Ellen Ionesco in 1946.

[892] He had, quote, perfected the procedure just weeks before.

[893] From the PBS documentary, the lobotomist, Ellen's daughter said that her mom changed for the better procedure, saying she never mentioned suicide again and saying her mom was violently suicidal up until that point.

[894] and telling NPR, after the transorbital lobotomy, there was nothing.

[895] It stopped immediately.

[896] It was just peace.

[897] I don't know how to explain it to you.

[898] It was like turning a coin over that quick.

[899] And she said Dr. Freeman gave her her mother back.

[900] Before this procedure style, Freeman hasn't been able to perform the procedure on his own as it was surgery.

[901] So he wasn't a surgeon and was Anita James Watts every time it was performed.

[902] But this newfangled ice pick method turned to it.

[903] into an outpatient procedure since they weren't actually going into the skull.

[904] And so he could, you know, allegedly get away with doing it with just the help of a nurse.

[905] So James Watts is like not fucking into this new way.

[906] It doesn't seem ethical or safe to him.

[907] He does not approve of the ice pick method.

[908] He calls it reckless and unsterile.

[909] They also fight over Freeman's idea that all he thinks all psychiatrists should be able to perform this procedure on their patients like during their exam, like he's in their office whenever they want.

[910] The two eventually part ways after Watts walks in on Dr. Freeman performing a transorbital procedure without his knowledge in his like office one day.

[911] He had been doing them when he knew Dr. Watts wasn't going to be in because he knew he approved of it, but when Dr. Watts walks in on him doing it, Freeman is just like so oblivious to the wrongs that he's doing that he asks Watts to take a photo.

[912] He's like, oh, hey, now that you're here, fucking take a quick photo.

[913] James Watts is appalled by this recklessness.

[914] And so he's like, fuck this crazy shit.

[915] And he gets the hell out of Freeman's life.

[916] But despite this and his horror, by the early 1950s lobotomies have become all the rage.

[917] Freeman loves performing them.

[918] And just as much he loves the attention is bringing him because it's making him fucking famous at this point.

[919] He's still showing off.

[920] He turns his doctor's coat into a, he cuts the sleeves off and turns it into a muscle t -shirt essentially, which is so tacky.

[921] And he's now nailing in the ice picks on both sides of the face at the same time, almost like a fucking like a party trick.

[922] So it takes even quicker.

[923] He doesn't have to do one side than the other.

[924] And he partly wants to freak people out who are watching.

[925] watching is one of the reasons he does it.

[926] So he lets an audience come and observe.

[927] It becomes like an assembly line to him.

[928] And during just a two week span in 1952, he performs 228 lobotomies in West Virginia alone and is performing them on people for as little a reason as that they're getting bad headaches.

[929] So there's not a ton of oversight.

[930] The procedure takes less than 10 minutes.

[931] and so he really starts cranking them out.

[932] So despite the eventual bad rap and numerous cases of bad outcomes and even multiple deaths, surprisingly in a lot of instances, the procedure actually seems to be helpful.

[933] But sometimes they're just completely tragic and make people's already difficult lives even worse, like the case of J .F .K.'s sister, Rosemary Kennedy.

[934] So throughout her life, the eldest daughter of the Kennedy clan and little sister to JFK, Rosemary, or Rosie.

[935] She had dealt with what was described as physical and mental development issues, and reportedly we have seizures as well as violent outbursts against others.

[936] So in 1943, when she's 23, her super controlling and demanding and total piece of shit father, Joseph Kennedy, enlists Freeman and Watts, who were still a team at the time.

[937] And James Watts later describes it to author Ronald Kessler as, quote, We went through the top of the head.

[938] I think Rosemary was awake.

[939] She had a mild tranquilizer.

[940] I made a surgical incision in the brain through the skull.

[941] It was near the front.

[942] It was on both sides.

[943] We put an instrument inside.

[944] And as Dr. Watts cut, Dr. Freeman talked to Rosemary and asked her some things like, you know, recite the Lord's Prayer or to sing God bless America or count backwards.

[945] And then says, quote, we made an estimate on how far to cut based on how she responded.

[946] When Rosemary began to become incoherent, they stopped.

[947] The procedure is a huge failure, and Rosemary is diminished to the mind of a two -year -old who can't speak or walk and is incoherent.

[948] One of the Kennedy's nurses who watched the procedure is so disturbed by it that afterwards she quits working in medicine completely.

[949] Oh, yeah.

[950] The once happy and vivacious Rosemary Kennedy is immediately placed in psychiatric hospital for several years.

[951] She separated from the family until 1969.

[952] Her mom doesn't visit her for 20 years.

[953] Her dad never does.

[954] And despite all this, Rosemary lives to be 68 years old.

[955] And it said that her nieces and nephews tried to give her a normal life when they were older.

[956] Or, you know, take care of her and not make her stay in an institution.

[957] What makes this all even worse is that the actual case of Rosemary's mental issues is most likely traced back to when she was left in the birth canal during delivery for two hours.

[958] deprived of oxygen because her mother, Rose Kennedy, was instructed by nurses to keep her legs closed and not push until the doctor was available, which is so, I mean, just tells you what medicine was like back then.

[959] It was barbaric.

[960] Her lobotomy wasn't made public until 1987.

[961] Another famous case is that of Howard Dully, who I mentioned earlier with the All Things Considered story, which you can find online.

[962] He's a pretty normal.

[963] 12 year old boy.

[964] He gets into some basic trouble.

[965] But his mother died of cancer.

[966] His dad remarried.

[967] And his stepmother is just a purely horrible woman.

[968] She basically can't control this normal 12 year old boy who's probably grieving his mother.

[969] He she says she takes him to Dr. Freeman and says he won't bathe.

[970] He won't go to bed.

[971] He turns lights on in rooms when it's daylight outside.

[972] Like those.

[973] are her reasons for why he's unruly.

[974] And despite that he has a newspaper route and earns money and is trying to, like, he is a responsible 12 -year -old boy.

[975] He just probably is sad and hates his stepmom.

[976] However, she labels him a problem child and disruptions to the family home and insists he needs a lobotomy.

[977] She forces him to meet with Dr. Freeman, who says, quote, he is defiant at times.

[978] He has a vicious expression on his face some of the time and diagnoses him as schizophrenic.

[979] So a day after meeting him, together they convince his father to kind of allow the lobotomy to go forward.

[980] And so in December 1960, he performs the lobotomy on the preteen and how, I know.

[981] And this is this episode of called My Lobotomy, which you can look up on iTunes.

[982] It's him narrating his story of as an adult.

[983] He's now a bus driver.

[984] and he spent his teens after the lobotomy waking up, quote, like a zombie and really not even knowing what was going to happen to him or what happened to him.

[985] He commits some small crimes.

[986] He does some stints in jail.

[987] Sometimes he's homeless, but as years pass, he gets his life together and he comes to an understanding that the lobotomy was not his fault and that it's his life's path and he needs to deal with it.

[988] He grows up to be a bus driver.

[989] He only tells his wife and a few close friends about the lobotomy he had and actually you would never really know he had had it if you just met him you know so he's he seemed a little dry but not in a way that you'd be like something's wrong with that guy it's just like it seems like just his personality and so this beautiful story he does um on all things considered he goes and speaks to his dad and is like why did you allow this to happen the dad and it's so it's so heart wrenching and beautiful and the dad's like I got tricked, I didn't know, like really what was going to happen.

[990] He goes on to write an autobiography and tells his story to NPR.

[991] He tells him that his overbearing stepmother threatened that she would divorce his father if they didn't get the bottomy done.

[992] And she was actually bummed that it didn't make him into a vegetable.

[993] And so as soon as it was over and he wasn't like essentially comatose, she kicked him out of the house.

[994] So this woman is horrible.

[995] She kicked him out when he was like 12 years old.

[996] Yeah, post or I don't know how long after, but like post lobotomy, the lobotomy didn't quote work, you know.

[997] And he is the youngest person that Dr. Freeman ever performed the procedure on.

[998] And it's like the fact that you would just be, the fact that he then was okay with it despite those reasonings, you know, and not ask this woman what, you know, try to help this child just kind of shows how far he.

[999] he strayed from initially possibly wanting to help you know for sure that's yeah that's it's this is so sinister it's unbelievable it's fucked up it is in 1952 a surgeon and physiologist in the french army henry laborit recognizes the potential use of a new drug in psychiatry and this is when dr freeman's fucking rain finally starts to come an end.

[1000] When Thorazine is introduced to the public to treat a wide variety of mental disorders that normally would have left to suffer an institution for life, such as psychosis, schizophrenia, mania, bipolar disorder, the treatment of mental patients is forever changed and these barbaric methods are phased out.

[1001] It's the first antipsychotic.

[1002] It's the first like wonder pill that actually changed people's lives.

[1003] And it's on the World Health's Organization.

[1004] list of essential medicines.

[1005] Its introduction has been labeled as one of the great advances in the history of psychiatry and its instrumental in the development of neuropsychopharmacology, and its commercial success stimulated the development of other psychotropic drugs.

[1006] So my life wouldn't be as good as it is if this hadn't happened.

[1007] So because of this, Dr. Freeman's brain business starts to slow down, society's exposure to the possible horrors of lobotomies has also grown as these stories become more and more prolific.

[1008] And it takes its toll on Dr. Freeman's business and public image.

[1009] The book, The lobotomist, shows a cocky Dr. Freeman posing for a photo during an ice pick procedure, which he gets every single, for every single patient, including this kid Howard Dully, the 12 year old, he goes back and looks at his files and finds a photo of him with the fucking picks in his eyes.

[1010] So he gets a photo of every single one of them.

[1011] And so in one of these procedures when he gets the photo taken and is distracted by it, it ends up killing the patient immediately because of his negligence.

[1012] So he finally hangs it up in 1967 when his last patient, Helen Mortensen, dies of a brain hemorrhage three days after her transorbital lobotomy.

[1013] So he spent the better part of the rest of his life documenting old patients and giving speeches, essentially trying to convince the world that he was doing the right thing.

[1014] And by the time of his death of cancer in 1972, Walter Freeman had performed lobotomies on around 2 ,500 patients across 23 states.

[1015] And overall, approximately 60 ,000 lobotomies were performed between 1936 and 1956, because other people were doing them too in the U .S. Wall Street Journal did some research and found like confidential government records and spoke to family members of veterans and found that lobotomies were given to hundreds of World War II vets who had returned from the war with serious psychiatric conditions.

[1016] So like with Vietnam, you kind of equate them coming home and having some serious psychological issues.

[1017] But World War II, they kind of like covered it up and we're like, you're coming home to your family and everyone gets a house and everything's peachy keen and fine now.

[1018] So they covered up all these lobotomies.

[1019] And in fact, between April 1947 and September 1950, VA doctors lobotomized about 1 ,464 patients.

[1020] Henry Marsh, a top English neurosurgeon, said of lobotomies in 2001, quote, if you saw the patient after the operation, they'd seem all right.

[1021] They'd walk and talk and say, thank you, doctor.

[1022] The fact that they were totally ruined as social human beings probably didn't count.

[1023] and then neurologist Dr. Eliot Valenstein said in his book called Great and Desperate Cures There were some very unpleasant results, very tragic results, and some excellent results, and a lot in between.

[1024] And then finally, his own son, Franklin Freeman, said, quote, you could never talk about a successful lobotomy.

[1025] You might as well talk about a successful automobile accident.

[1026] And that is a story of Dr. Walter Freeman and lobotomies.

[1027] Wow.

[1028] I know.

[1029] I just hate the like, that was back in a time where it's the same thing with priests, where doctors, it was just like, I always put, it's just like for in general, just like big white men who told everybody how it was going to be.

[1030] And no one, there was no way to advocate for yourself.

[1031] There was no, you just did what they said.

[1032] Yeah.

[1033] And it was just kind of like, their way or the highway and if you had somebody that maybe you know maybe didn't have um like their oath in mind when they treated every single person that just there's just nowhere to go you can't get away from that absolutely it's so horrible for you and it went on for so long it's just so awful absolutely uh great job thank you and i highly recommend reading the book uh it's called blue dreams, the science and story of the drugs that changed our minds.

[1034] It's by Lauren Slater.

[1035] And it's all about psychiatry and psychopharmacology and how it changed the world.

[1036] It's fascinating.

[1037] Check it out.

[1038] And thanks to my friend Mike Burns, he did a great job researching this.

[1039] Yeah, he did great.

[1040] Yeah.

[1041] For something so awful.

[1042] Totally.

[1043] Yeah, it's fascinating though.

[1044] I mean, like that's the thing.

[1045] It's, it's, it really happened.

[1046] Yeah.

[1047] And I, I've seen those pictures.

[1048] Yeah.

[1049] With the ice picks.

[1050] It's just, I remember the first time, whatever I saw documentary or whatever it was, just being like, no, no, no, no. That doesn't go there.

[1051] This I'm not doing.

[1052] I can't.

[1053] I can't.

[1054] I mean, I highly recommend that the documentary is like PBS one because there are tons of photographs and the stories of, I mean, it wasn't that long ago that it was just bar bar, bar, bar, barrack and it's I think it hits home for a lot of people because it's stuff that we would have would have happened to us or someone we know you know at the time it's like you we all know someone who has issues that gets in the way of their lives that they're luckily able to treat and it wasn't a case back then that's really sad yeah yeah different times yeah um all right well hold on this is I have to go to things to people like your mom the last page for giving a shit i mean she told me shit she told me stories of the worst because she worked at a mental hospital in san francisco which in the 60s um like late the mid to late 60s where she said that's when kind of like the you know the the beginning of the like cultural revolution yeah phase that kind of stuff was starting to happen and there were families that would just send their rebellious teenagers to mental hospital.

[1055] So she was like, so there would be these teenagers that got caught smoking pot that would get shipped to a mental hospital and be in the day room with people who were completely psychotic.

[1056] Like, she's like, it was terrible and it was super unfair and really being sane like that, you know.

[1057] And probably just detrimental to their well -being.

[1058] Not, I mean, you know, hopefully there were people, staff members who understood that that but that that's the best version of housing the housing issue of you know just sending people away to never see them again totally okay so this uh i first became aware of the murder that i'm doing this week because i had to watch two uh listeners talk about it in front of me on twitter which um you know i have to say it didn't feel great oh so first carina sent me a tweet that said, I'm begging you.

[1059] Please cover the Smutty Nose Axe Murders on the Isles of Shoals in New Hampshire.

[1060] I will send you every page of a book I have about it.

[1061] I know you'll never come to New Hampshire, so you owe me this.

[1062] And then here comes Emily.

[1063] Here comes, I know, she came in hot.

[1064] Then here comes Emily going, I've submitted this one like three times.

[1065] It's so interesting and it's got it all.

[1066] And then Karina comes back and goes, it's our best hometown one so I sent that exchange to Jay and said will you please look up some information about the smutty nose actors?

[1067] Ladies this better be fucking great or you're just banned Can you imagine if I blame them and I'm about to tell you the most boring as shit and then we're doing it because of these two guys they had to no so so when we searched the Gmail there was also Nicholas wrote in because it's his hometown And so, but we also got information from murderbygastlight .com.

[1068] Oh, yeah, our favorite.

[1069] A great website for old murders and historical murders, such a good website.

[1070] And the person who runs that website is also an author.

[1071] I've talked about them so many times.

[1072] So go there if you're looking for interesting new stories, old stories.

[1073] But also New England .com, the lineup .com.

[1074] and, of course, the great Wikipedia .gov. Those are my sources.

[1075] And also, so this is the email from Nicholas, he said, so my hometown was 145 years ago, but it's still good.

[1076] I grew up in Portsmouth, New Hampshire, along with the whole 11 miles of coastline that the state has.

[1077] Right off the coast is an archipelago.

[1078] I don't know how to pronounce that.

[1079] Archipelago.

[1080] Archipelago.

[1081] Archipelago.

[1082] Thank you.

[1083] It's archipelago of nine islands called the Isles of Shoals, one of which is called Smutty Nose Island.

[1084] At the time, there was a fishing village that was home to over 600 people, but advances in technology caused many traditional fishermen to abandon the island in favor of the mainland.

[1085] This led to a total of five people, a group of Norwegian immigrants, to remain living on the island.

[1086] And then he goes in to tell the entire story.

[1087] Nicholas, I'm just letting you kick this off and we'll get back to your email maybe a little bit later.

[1088] So essentially, it's the night of March 5th, 1873.

[1089] And Karen Christensen has just finished her shift at the Appledore Hotel on Appledore Island, which is the largest island in this archipelago of nine islands.

[1090] It's off the coast of both Maine and New Hampshire.

[1091] So basically the state line runs through.

[1092] So half of them are in one state and half or in the other.

[1093] So Karen heads to her sister, Marin, Han Vent's house, which is on Smutty Nose Island, which is just south of Appledore.

[1094] And there she's welcomed by her sister and her sister -in -law, Anna Tay Christensen.

[1095] Okay, so Smutty Nose Island is only about a half mile long.

[1096] It's less than half a mile wide.

[1097] It got its name from a fisherman who saw the seaweed around the island and thought it looked like the smutty nose of a giant sea creature.

[1098] It's subject to cold, harsh winters, and the only people who ever really go there are fishermen passing through on fishing trips.

[1099] In fact, no one lives there year round except for the Haunt Vet family.

[1100] So Marin's husband, John Haunfant, and his brother Matthew, along with Marin and Karen's brother Ivan, all those men are, fisherman.

[1101] Everybody's brother or husband in this story is a fisherman.

[1102] They're all away for the night in the mainland port city of Port Smith, New Hampshire.

[1103] They're there waiting for a shipment of bait.

[1104] It's a cold late winter night.

[1105] So to keep warm, all three women are sleeping in the first floor of this two -story house.

[1106] Marin and Anna Tay are sharing the first floor bedroom.

[1107] And Karen has set up a makeshift bed for herself in the kitchen.

[1108] Because I'm guessing that's where the wood -burning stove is, and that's where the snacks are.

[1109] I want both of those things right now.

[1110] Yeah, right?

[1111] Like, just pull up to a nice kind of fire in the kitchen.

[1112] And I like, maybe some crab cakes.

[1113] A Doritos variety pack bed?

[1114] Sure.

[1115] Oh, crab cake.

[1116] No, no, no, crab cakes.

[1117] But then in your bed, I mean, old -fashioned crab cake, modern.

[1118] Okay, so around one in the morning, Karen wakes to the sound of the family dog, Ringya, who's barking.

[1119] She looks up to see the silhouette.

[1120] of a man standing in the doorway.

[1121] So she thinks it's her brother -in -law, John, coming home early.

[1122] So she gets up.

[1123] But this startles the man. And in a panic, he grabs the closest heavy object he can find, which is a wooden chair.

[1124] And he starts to beat her with it.

[1125] Since she believes it's John, she cries out, John is killing me, which wakes Marin up.

[1126] So Marin opens the bedroom door to find her sister battered and bloodied on the floor.

[1127] The man freezes, which gives Marin the chair.

[1128] chance to grab Karen and drag her limp body into the bedroom and deadbolted behind her.

[1129] Deadbolt the door behind her.

[1130] So the man starts pounding on the bedroom door.

[1131] Marin knowing it's only a matter of time before he breaks it down, tells the two other women they need to escape out the bedroom window and run.

[1132] So Anatea goes first, but as she lands outside, she sees the man coming outside to and she watches as he grabs the axe the Haunt Vent family keeps next to the house.

[1133] to break up ice and as he comes toward her with the axe the moonlight brightens his face so she can see who's coming toward her and she cries out wait now let's stop here so i can give you a little more back story on his family all right that's a cliffhanger that's a hilarious cliffhanger i just made you um go through yeah okay so originally from norway john and maren hauntved emigrate to America in 1866 hoping to find better opportunities for themselves.

[1134] So they land in Boston, but they have a hard time adjusting to city life.

[1135] So in 1868, they move up to the remote Smutty Nose Island of Maine.

[1136] So they rent this small red house on the island, and they're the only one that lives there year round.

[1137] And they rent the house from the local family, the Latins, who also own and operate the Appledore Hotel on Appledore Island.

[1138] And it's the only host.

[1139] hotel in the entire aisles of shoals.

[1140] So John buys himself a schooner.

[1141] He names it the Clara Bella and he starts a fishing business.

[1142] So every day at dawn he sails out to the fishing grounds.

[1143] He casts his nets, takes in the day's catch to Portsmouth and then he sells what he caught at the market.

[1144] And once his catch is sold, he uses part of his earnings to buy bait for the next stays outing and then he sails back home.

[1145] And he soon becomes very successful.

[1146] He's really good at this.

[1147] So while Marin is proud of her husband's hard work and of the home that they now have, she feels really isolated on that island all alone with her dog.

[1148] So she generally keeps good spirits and she decorates the house.

[1149] She cares for the home.

[1150] She tends to plants that she keeps in the window sill.

[1151] But her only company is Rinya and she misses her family back.

[1152] back in Norway.

[1153] Luckily, John cares about his wife's feelings and listens when she tells him because he has a secure attachment style.

[1154] And he doesn't get defensive when she tells him her troubles.

[1155] Is this a fairy tale?

[1156] No, this can happen to you.

[1157] If you just read the book.

[1158] So he sends word back to Norway and uses his hard -earned money to pay for his brother, Matthew, and for Marin's sister, Karen, to come to America.

[1159] to and live with them on the island.

[1160] So they arrive in May of 1871.

[1161] So Maron's thrilled to have her sister with her, but Karen is actually heartbroken over the end of a relationship back in Norway.

[1162] So Maron determined to help her get over it and start her life anew speaks with the Latens and gets Karen a job working as a live -in maid at the Appledore Hotel.

[1163] How Karen got her groove back.

[1164] It's such an older sister move to be like, Come keep me company on a deserted island.

[1165] Are you bun?

[1166] Okay, now you're a maid.

[1167] Like, so controlling.

[1168] Shut up.

[1169] Yeah.

[1170] Clean this.

[1171] Get over it.

[1172] Appachment style, sister.

[1173] So Matthew starts working for his brother John's fishing business, which is growing rapidly.

[1174] So it turns out John needs even more help to keep things running smoothly.

[1175] So one day at the, while at the market in Portsmouth, he meets another local fisherman named Lewis Wagner and offers him a job.

[1176] So Lewis Wagner is a 28 -year -old German fisherman with a thick accent who came to America around 1865.

[1177] He's been fishing around the New England area for a while now, but he isn't making very much money.

[1178] He's barely getting by.

[1179] And most of the other fishermen aren't really big fans of Lewis.

[1180] He seems to be like he likes lurking in corners.

[1181] He's always eavesdropping on conversations.

[1182] So he's definitely not the killer, is what you're saying.

[1183] No, no, no. don't worry about this guy.

[1184] This guy is, in fact, forget I'm even telling you.

[1185] No one really, also no one really knows much about him.

[1186] But John finds him friendly enough and needs the help.

[1187] He also can't really afford to pay another full -time fisherman.

[1188] So he offers Lewis room and board at his house on Smutty Nose Island.

[1189] And since then when Lewis agrees to those terms, John doesn't hesitate because there's a free creep for hire.

[1190] Get them into your...

[1191] Get the cheapest possible person you can to do the job.

[1192] Yeah.

[1193] And don't worry.

[1194] And then don't more think about it again.

[1195] Just a lurker.

[1196] Yeah.

[1197] And you know what?

[1198] Actually, let them move in to your house with your wife and sister -in -law, too would be a...

[1199] Because you don't know anything about him and he's a lurker.

[1200] It'll be fine.

[1201] So, Lewis spends the summer of, uh, spends that summer of, it's every fucking thing.

[1202] It says eight, it says 172.

[1203] Jay.

[1204] Jay?

[1205] I think I No, no, it was me. I think I went in and accidentally, it's 1872.

[1206] So Lewis spends the summer of 1872 working on the clara bella with John and Matthew, although he often has to take days off because he has rheumatoid arthritis.

[1207] But hey, so you get what you pay for, John.

[1208] So Marin cooks for everyone, herself, John Matthew and Lewis.

[1209] Every day, the four friends become very close and Lewis is accepted into the family.

[1210] So then in October of 1872, Marin and Karen's brother Ivan Christensen moved to Smuddy Nose Island with his wife, Anatea.

[1211] Their newlyweds, they have been married less than a year and they wanted to come to America, be close to their siblings, and be a part of John's growing fishing business.

[1212] So with more family coming to town, there's now five people living in the house on somebody knows island and it's getting crowded.

[1213] Lewis sticks around for the next five weeks, but it soon becomes clear that John has more help than he needs and he's just kind of left out.

[1214] So he takes the hint.

[1215] He finds himself another job as a deckhand aboard the fishing schooner, the Addison Gilbert.

[1216] So by November of that year, he's gone.

[1217] And there seemed to be no hard feelings.

[1218] The Hauntbet family feels like They help their friend Lewis get back on his feet, and now he's on his way.

[1219] But soon after Lewis joins the crew, the Addison Gilbert is wrecked in a terrible accident, and he's basically, he doesn't have a job again.

[1220] So he's forced to go back to working the Portsmouth Wharfs, and it's bitter cold winter.

[1221] Of course, makes it working even harder.

[1222] By March of 1873, Lewis is completely broke.

[1223] He's three weeks behind on his rent.

[1224] his shoes are worn down his clothes are in tatters and he's totally desperate so now it's march 5th of 1873 and john and matthew and ivan arrive at portsmouth to pick up their bait for the next day but but when they go to get it the shipment is coming up from boston on the train and it's delayed so john finds another fisherman who he knows is going to be passing smutty nose island on his way home and he asks him to stop and let marron and Anatea know that the men will have to spend the night in Portsmouth so that they can go pick up their bait the next morning.

[1225] The fishermen agrees to do that.

[1226] And as the guys are getting ready to settle in for the night, they bump into Lewis.

[1227] So they see that Lewis is down on his luck.

[1228] And so John offers to pay him to help them bait the lines on the Clarabella in the morning.

[1229] Lewis agrees, but secretly, he's got other plans.

[1230] because he now knows that John Matthew and Ivan will not be home that evening and he also knows firsthand how lucrative John's fishing business has become.

[1231] So around 8 o 'clock that night Lewis steals a rowboat from Portsmouth's Pickering Wharf and he rows the it's somewhere between 6 to 10 miles out to Smuddy Nose Island.

[1232] I bet also like now as a dog owner the dog knows him so it's isn't going to freak out as much as I would with a stranger.

[1233] Very true.

[1234] Yeah, he just thinks, oh, this guy's coming back.

[1235] He might even shake, wag his tail, welcome in.

[1236] Sure.

[1237] Be stowed.

[1238] Did he always have treats in his pocket?

[1239] Well, he always smelled like fish.

[1240] I'll tell you that.

[1241] So it's, so that rowing of the boat is a five -hour journey.

[1242] Across freezing waves and winds.

[1243] When he arrives at Smutty Nose, he docked.

[1244] his boat on the south side of the island and he trudges through the snow up to the Hauntvent's home.

[1245] He enters quietly planning to go find that money that he knows John has somewhere in that house.

[1246] He's thinking that the women are asleep upstairs.

[1247] So now we're back in from where I left you at the top.

[1248] So Anna Tay drops out the bedroom window.

[1249] She sees the man who was inside the house coming around the corner holding the axe and when the moonlight shines on his face, she cries out Lewis, Lewis.

[1250] But before she can run or get away from him, he swings the axe high over his head and brings it right down on Anatee's skull crushing it in one blow.

[1251] Oh, my God.

[1252] Marin is watching this from the bedroom window and she so she witnesses her sister -in -law's murder.

[1253] She turns back into the bedroom trying to figure out a way for her and her sister, Karen to escape, but Karen is beaten so badly she can't even stand up.

[1254] So Maron is tending to her sister.

[1255] Lewis comes back inside the house and he starts swinging the axe at that door.

[1256] So he's breaking his way into the room.

[1257] Marin goes back to the window.

[1258] She's trying to pull Karen out the window with her and it's no use.

[1259] She's dead weight.

[1260] And by the time he breaks all the way into the room, she has to leave her sister behind.

[1261] She grabs the dog and she hops out the window right as Lewis swings the axe at her.

[1262] He actually misses her just barely and he hits the window sill instead right behind her.

[1263] So she's running off into the snow with the dog in her nightgown.

[1264] And on a secluded fucking island.

[1265] On a secluded fucking wind -swept island, she can hear Lewis strangling Karen today.

[1266] Yeah.

[1267] So she's searching for a good hiding spot on the island.

[1268] And she's being careful to hold the dog close so he doesn't bark or give her away in any way.

[1269] And first she goes into the chicken coop and she's hiding in there.

[1270] And then she realizes it's way too obvious.

[1271] It's the first place he's going to check.

[1272] And so she runs down to the docks to try to escape in the rowboat that he got there on.

[1273] But the docks closest to their cottage are on the north.

[1274] side and Lewis intentionally docked on the south side so no one would see him.

[1275] So there's no boat there.

[1276] So without any options, she runs down the beach and hides behind a large rock on the west side of the island.

[1277] It's right by the water.

[1278] And because she knows that the sound of crashing waves could mask any noise she might make or any barking that the dog might do.

[1279] In just her nightgown and bare feet, Marin sits in the snow until the sunrises holding the dog close to keep her warm.

[1280] So...

[1281] Maren was right.

[1282] Lewis did search the building surrounding the house for her.

[1283] He couldn't find her anywhere.

[1284] He goes back to the Haunt Vets house where there are two dead women's bodies.

[1285] He bruised himself some tea.

[1286] He fixes himself a snack.

[1287] He ransacks the place looking for cash.

[1288] He finds $16, which is the amount, the equivalent of about $360 today.

[1289] And then he rose back to Portsmouth before sunrise.

[1290] So around 8 a .m., she's unsure whether or not Lewis is still on the island, but Marin runs across the breakwater to Malaga Island, which is northwest of Smutty Nose.

[1291] And she's now close to Appledore Island that she can actually shout to the shores and some kids who are outside playing hear her yelling and they run inside and get their dad.

[1292] Good boy, boys and girls.

[1293] Yes.

[1294] Good kids.

[1295] And their dad, Yorga Ingerbretzen.

[1296] Oh.

[1297] He rose across to Smutty Nose, rescues Marin, brings her back to Appledore Island.

[1298] And Yorga and some other men from Appledore go back over to Smutty Nose Island to search for the sign of the killer.

[1299] They don't find anyone there.

[1300] They come back to Appledore and continue their search thinking maybe he, hopped islands and came over to Appledore.

[1301] And then they leave a signal on the shores of Smuddy Nose so that when John Matthew and Ivan returned from fishing, they know to come straight back to Appledore.

[1302] So a few hours later, the men see the sign.

[1303] John continues on sailing the Clara Bella to Smuddy Noses Harbor.

[1304] But when Matthew and Ivan, they take the tender, which is what they call a little boat that crewmen use between ships, they row that to Appledore Island, find Marin, and she tells them the horrible news of what happened.

[1305] So they're fueled with rage and grief and confusion.

[1306] They rush back to Smutty Nose Island, and they get there almost the same time that John gets there, and all three of them run to the Little Red Cottage and find the horrific scene exactly as Marin had described it happening.

[1307] So that evening, the coroner comes, and Marin and John go back to Portland.

[1308] smith with him and report the murders to the authorities and give them Lewis's name.

[1309] And of course, the newspapers run the story immediately.

[1310] Within hours of the murders, the story has spread all over the region.

[1311] So the morning of the murders, Lewis rose back home.

[1312] He eats breakfast like nothing happened.

[1313] The people who see him row into the harbor say he looks down like he hasn't slept all night, but after breakfast, he packs a bag and he takes the 9 a .m. train to Boston.

[1314] And when he gets there, he uses some of the stolen money to get a haircut.

[1315] He shaves his beard and he buys himself a new suit.

[1316] But word about the murders has already gotten to Boston.

[1317] So he makes the mistake of going back to his old neighborhood in the North End where everybody recognizes him despite his cleaned up disguise.

[1318] So he's arrested.

[1319] He's taken back to Portsmouth.

[1320] Now an angry mob is waiting there with torches and pitchforks waiting for him.

[1321] They want to kill him, obviously.

[1322] He's walked through them, thrown in jail, and then he's extradited to a more secure prison in Alfred Maine.

[1323] So Lewis Wagner's trial begins three months later on June 9, 1873.

[1324] There's a ton of evidence against him.

[1325] There's his bloody shirt that he hid in his boarding room.

[1326] There's the fact that $16 was stolen from the haunt vets and his suit cost $15.

[1327] And there's one of Marin's nightgown buttons that police find in Lewis's pocket change.

[1328] So very damning evidence.

[1329] But he insists he's innocent, even though his alibi is really flimsy.

[1330] He claims that he was baiting lines for one of the captains, but he can't remember the name of the captain.

[1331] or the boat.

[1332] He says he was drinking at a bar in Portsmouth that night, got drunk and slept outside, but he can't remember the name of the bar or describe its location.

[1333] And there's no witnesses to corroborate his story.

[1334] Goodbye.

[1335] Nine days later on June 17th, 1873, after 55 minutes of deliberation, the jury finds Lewis Wagner guilty of the premeditated murders of Karen and Anatea Christensen.

[1336] And he's sentenced to death by hanging.

[1337] Okay.

[1338] So even after his guilty verdict and sentencing, Lewis continues to maintain his innocence.

[1339] Even in the face of the overwhelming evidence, his continual denial causes some people to consider other possibilities.

[1340] Don't do that.

[1341] Let me get.

[1342] Do that.

[1343] Okay.

[1344] So one theory is that John Hompbent was actually the killer, since Karen initially cried out, John is killing me when the man first began his attack.

[1345] And the only survivor is his own wife.

[1346] Maron, but there are several eyewitnesses who attest to John being in Port Smith on the nine of the murders, and he has no motive to kill his own family members.

[1347] Another theory is that Marin is the murderer.

[1348] I was, I was, that that crossed my mind that maybe other people thought that or maybe they were having an affair or something.

[1349] But that's just like, one guy can do it alone.

[1350] We don't need a fucking accomplice, you know what I mean?

[1351] Lewis was the name of the killer.

[1352] Like Lewis can do it on his own He doesn't need a nefarious accomplice Right No but this theory is that she's the murder By herself And the testimony Like so basically because Her testimony is the only I witness account In theory it would have been easier For her to commit the murders Than a man traveling in from Portsmouth By Robo Because that ride is so Terrible and long Yeah but he had opportunity Because he knew that husbands weren't going to be there And they also say there's no way she could.

[1353] Some people say there's no way she could have survived a night exposed to the elements in just a nightgown.

[1354] To what to them I say, how dare you discount the power of Ringya, who was there with her.

[1355] That dog saved her life.

[1356] As a dog owner, I'm a fan, I'm highly offended by that.

[1357] Get used to saying that because you're going to have to say it all the time.

[1358] What if I just become that asshole is like, excuse me. Excuse me. I'm a canine lover.

[1359] And so I'd like you to.

[1360] take that back.

[1361] Okay, so despite all these rumors, the guilty verdict stands, but on June 18th, 1873, the day after his sentencing, Lewis acts on his escape plan, and it's one he'd been planning since he arrived at the prison in Maine.

[1362] He places a stool along with some other stuff that he had lying around his cell under the blanket to make it look like he was in bed sleeping.

[1363] Classic.

[1364] The classic move, right?

[1365] And then it's 3 a .m. He used the end of a wooden toothbrush, pick the lock on his cell, and makes a getaway during the guard's 3 a .m. break.

[1366] Now, he's too scared to travel through the woods, which I think is kind of a hilarious detail.

[1367] Oh, he's scared.

[1368] Oh, what is it?

[1369] Like some kind of a raccoon can get you.

[1370] Oh, no, one's scare the big bed martyrer.

[1371] So he goes down the road in the middle of the night.

[1372] He gets to a farm.

[1373] The farmer who has no idea who he is or what.

[1374] the fact that he broke out of prison or anything, welcomes him inside.

[1375] And so he actually ends up staying there for a couple days.

[1376] But then a group of vigilantes finds out that he's there and circle up and he has taken back to prison.

[1377] Those vigilantes will fucking get you every time.

[1378] They're not having it.

[1379] So this is from Nicholas's email.

[1380] He says, a bit about Wagner.

[1381] He was handsome and apparently very gregarious, but he was known to all caps.

[1382] have trouble keeping eye contact during conversation.

[1383] And then there's like five exclamation points.

[1384] He says, and I refuse to believe that being a fisherman in the late 1800s didn't come with a little cranial injury every now and again.

[1385] But despite the mob that tried to lynch him, he was the straight up Charles Manson of his day where he'd received fan mail in prison and would have people trying to visit him while he awaited trial and literally had a following of whack jobs who, were convinced he was innocent.

[1386] Do you know who I'm picturing, playing him?

[1387] Michael Shannon.

[1388] Yeah.

[1389] From boardwalk empire and all, and every other time he's the villain.

[1390] And every other role.

[1391] And every other thing.

[1392] He's ever played.

[1393] And one of the more shocking and bizarre sex scenes from a shape of water, the shape of water.

[1394] Do you remember that?

[1395] Troubling movie.

[1396] His, his butt, he's fucking his wife in the strangest way.

[1397] and it was really like a it was like a hard cut to this scene where I was just like hold the phone.

[1398] Are we having aggressively awkward sex right now and this like weird 50s bossy sex?

[1399] What's happening?

[1400] Anyway, trigger warning.

[1401] To this day, there are those who insist Lewis Wagner was framed in his German descent made him an easy scapegoat.

[1402] Speculation also comes up whether it's physically possible to row the 10 miles to and from the islands in the time span where the murders happened.

[1403] And then parentheses, Nicholas says, it can, especially for someone as sea -hardened as Wagner.

[1404] Nicholas, thank you for your classic New Hampshire storytelling.

[1405] It really added.

[1406] Okay.

[1407] So on June 25th, now we're out of Nicholas's email.

[1408] That's over.

[1409] On June 25th, 1875, Lewis Wagner is taken to the state prison at Thomaston, Maine, where he is hanged alongside another man who's also guilty of murder.

[1410] As for Marin and John Hauntvet, they moved.

[1411] off of the Isles of Shoals for good.

[1412] They find themselves a new home in Portsmouth where John keeps up his fishing business until the end of their lives.

[1413] Ivan is destroyed by the murder of his wife, Anatei, and he decides to stay in the aisles, but he moves to Appledore Island.

[1414] He takes up work as a carpenter, but he's, of course, forever changed by his loss.

[1415] The once good -spirited Ivan hardly talks to anyone.

[1416] He avoids eye contact.

[1417] He keeps his head down and just works.

[1418] And after the summer of 1873, he ends up moving back to Norway and he loses touch with Marin and John completely.

[1419] Then three years later, Marin dies of natural causes.

[1420] And at the time, several newspapers print a completely unsubstantiated rumor saying that Marin confessed to the murders on her deathbed, which then which then readnights those.

[1421] that those yeah those theories um yeah that defended lewis wagner um and is basically one last blow to the only witness and sole survivor of of this terrible axe murder who tried to like save her sister out a window and couldn't and she gets blamed for it what a bummer so the big rock where marron hid the night of the axe murders is now called marron's rock on that island the little red cottage burned down several years after the murders, and now you can only see the stone foundation on the island.

[1422] And that is Karina and Emily and Nicholas's horrible hometown story, the Smuddy Nose Axe murders.

[1423] Wow.

[1424] I mean, that was, that was a good one.

[1425] It was horrible.

[1426] You know, it was a horrible, good one.

[1427] It really, I think they were all right that it had a lot of really compelling elements and just that.

[1428] idea of her having to jump out the window when her sister and sister -in -law have been murdered and then she's trying to figure out where to hide in the snow and can we say also she took the dog she couldn't save her sister she saved the dog which is like such a heroic i mean it you know it's like she i don't think that someone who was like killing everyone was just like oh well i'm going to take the dog though.

[1429] That's just like the saddest thing that she couldn't save her sister.

[1430] She couldn't save her sister -in -law and she saved the one thing she could, which was the dog.

[1431] It's just like incredible.

[1432] Poor thing.

[1433] Yeah.

[1434] Poor thing.

[1435] Great job.

[1436] Thank you.

[1437] Should we do like one hometown each?

[1438] I mean, one fucking hooray.

[1439] Okay, let's do it.

[1440] Go ahead.

[1441] You go first.

[1442] This is from Maya George on Instagram.

[1443] My fucking hooray this week is that I was recently admitted.

[1444] to my top choice law school, the University of Iowa College of Law.

[1445] I was the only school I applied to, and I was thrilled to hear back less than two weeks after submitting my application.

[1446] Smart person.

[1447] Imposter syndrome is a condition I know all too well, and this acceptance went a long way to reminding me that I am capable, and I look forward to advocating for the environment through the law, SSDGM.

[1448] Awesome, congratulations.

[1449] Good job, Maya.

[1450] Find your murderinos.

[1451] at what was it called?

[1452] The University of Iowa College of Law.

[1453] Okay, let's see.

[1454] This one is from Mone.

[1455] And it's fucking hooray.

[1456] Side effect of COVID vaccine is serotonin.

[1457] Hello, all.

[1458] It is safe to say that being a single night shift, ICU nurse during the pandemic has been a journey.

[1459] Quiet cries on drives home, sleeping through the day and drive -through meals paired with a bottle of wine has been most of my last year.

[1460] The day I lost my first patient to COVID, my closet shelf fell down from the sheer weight of my coping mechanism, shopping.

[1461] It was too much to handle, and I just closed the door and figured I would deal with it someday.

[1462] But I have been unable to deal with this closet of shit for over a year.

[1463] However, the other day, I got my second COVID vaccine.

[1464] Oh, thank God.

[1465] And my anxiety slash depression has lightened enough to deal with this closet, and it is fine.

[1466] fixed.

[1467] I don't need any accolades for working through this.

[1468] I love my job and it is my purpose in this life.

[1469] But this pandemic has emotionally destroyed me and many other frontline workers.

[1470] The vaccine finally rolling out, me finally have the energy to doing something about my closet and my fellow healthcare workers feeling actually protected for the first time is a huge fucking hooray.

[1471] I'm sure my therapist will unpack this all this week.

[1472] As I've been hiding the closet situation, from her.

[1473] Amen.

[1474] But I wanted my favorite ladies to know first.

[1475] Thanks for all you do, M. Sweet.

[1476] Oh, my God.

[1477] I don't want to get like, I know you don't want to hear it all the time, but thanks for all you fucking do.

[1478] Oh, my God.

[1479] Yeah.

[1480] That's a, that's a beautifully written message and it makes us very happy to the idea that frontline workers are finally getting relief and getting what they need is the best.

[1481] Thank God.

[1482] All right.

[1483] So mine is from D .D .0 .3233 on Instagram.

[1484] My fucking hooray is I am pregnant with my first child, a baby girl.

[1485] Being pregnant during a pandemic can be really tough and isolating at times.

[1486] I had my 20 week anatomy scan on January 20th.

[1487] I also happened to live in the suburbs of D .C., so not like that day wasn't already exciting enough.

[1488] The scan showed that baby girl is, for lack of a better term, absolutely perfect, and developing the way she should.

[1489] I was overwhelmed with emotions after getting that news, but then tuning in to the inauguration coverage and knowing that my baby girl will not know in America where a woman has never been vice president is just amazing.

[1490] Wow.

[1491] I have so much hope for the future of our country and know that my baby girl has these incredible female role models to look up to and then a bunch of happy, smiling, crying, amazing emojis.

[1492] Yay.

[1493] Congratulations.

[1494] Congratulations.

[1495] That's, wait, their name's D -D -D -D -D -D -D -E.

[1496] Her name's D -D -D -D -E -E -0 -3 -2 -3.

[1497] Amazing.

[1498] Because my, this mine is also from a D. This is from D -E -E -E -S.

[1499] Oh, wow.

[1500] And it just says, my fucking hooray, we're finally pouring the slab on my first project as a builder.

[1501] Female, disabled, and they said I couldn't do it.

[1502] Well, fuck everyone and do it anyway.

[1503] Oh, my God.

[1504] Why are these all going to make me cry tonight?

[1505] So good.

[1506] Wow.

[1507] Fucking hooray.

[1508] Hell fucking yeah.

[1509] Thanks for sending those in you guys.

[1510] Thank you so much, letting us share those.

[1511] I hope you all know that you're supporting.

[1512] and fucking giving hope to so many other people and I know people read the hashtag fucking hooray and they're just like so supportive of each other it's so important it's a it's a fucking new day I mean everything still is and we can all get there together I'm so excited it's amazing there's there's there's really good news out there and we just have to remind each other every day it gets better and yeah it's right so cool so thanks for listening Thank you guys for being here with us as we do this and stay sexy.

[1513] And don't get murdered.

[1514] Goodbye.

[1515] Elvis, do you want a cookie?