S2: Bonus Ep 4 – From the Depths of Hell All the Way to Heaven

[0] I'm John Walsack, host of the new podcast, Missing in Arizona.

[1] And I'm Robert Fisher, one of the most wanted men in the world.

[2] We cloned his voice using AI.

[3] In 2001, police say I killed my family and rigged my house to explode.

[4] Before escaping into the wilderness.

[5] Police believe he is alive and hiding somewhere.

[6] Join me. I'm going down in the cave.

[7] As I track down clues.

[8] I'm going to call the police and have you removed.

[9] Hunting.

[10] One of the most dangerous fugitives in the world.

[11] Robert Fisher.

[12] Do you recognize my voice?

[13] Listen to missing in Arizona every Wednesday.

[14] on the IHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your favorite shows.

[15] The podium is back with fresh angles and deep dives into Olympic and Paralympic stories you know, and those you'll be hard -pressed to forget.

[16] I did something in 88 that hasn't been beaten.

[17] Oh, gosh, the U .S. Olympic trials is the hardest and most competitive meat in the world.

[18] We are athletes who are going out there, smashing into each other, full force.

[19] Listen to The Podium on the IHeart app or your favorite podcast, weekly and every day during the Games to hear the Olympics like you've never quite heard them before.

[20] In 2020, in a small California mountain town, five women disappeared.

[21] I found out what happened to all of them, except one, a woman known as Dia, whose estate is worth millions of dollars.

[22] I'm Lucy Sheriff.

[23] Over the past four years, I've spoken with Dia's family and friends, and I've discovered that everyone has a different version of events.

[24] Hear the story on Where's Deer?

[25] Listen on the IHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen to podcasts.

[26] I'm Andrea Gunning, and this is Betrayal Bonus Episode 4.

[27] Update on Aaron.

[28] Before the bonus starts, I want to tell you that more stories of betrayal will be coming in 2024.

[29] So we want to hear your stories.

[30] And although we've talked about marriages and parent relationships, we are open to any betrayal that has changed your life in a meaningful way.

[31] If you're open and want to share your story of betrayal, email me at Betrayalpod at gmail .com.

[32] That's Betrayal, P -O -D at gmail .com.

[33] And of course, if you want to write in and just share privately, this email account can continue to be a safe space for you too.

[34] Okay, so onto an important update on Erin, one of the women you got to know last season.

[35] We received so many wonderful emails expressing support and concern about her.

[36] Let me give you a quick recap of her story.

[37] Erin is a family therapist.

[38] She was married to Joel, and they lived with her two kids in Texas.

[39] Joel was an explosive specialist for the military.

[40] Erin knew her husband was struggling.

[41] Her marriage was in trouble.

[42] And after a fight, Aaron's intuition kicked in.

[43] I decided to look at his computer, and I went into his recently deleted files.

[44] And that's where there was just a plethora of pictures.

[45] like Little Miss, country USA, all different ages, all different looks.

[46] It was so many people he had collected.

[47] I clicked on one, and it was this little girl who I'd never seen before, don't recognize it all, standing naked on a beach.

[48] She had a look on her face like, this is not me being cute and playing on the beach.

[49] No, it was inappropriate.

[50] So I actually took a picture of her from the face up because I just needed to prove to myself that I wasn't crazy.

[51] And then I took a picture of the names of the files and then I shed it all down and I put it all back.

[52] What Aaron found was the tip of the iceberg.

[53] She took her two small young children and fled.

[54] She drove to the airport and flew back to her hometown in California, seeking solace and family support.

[55] Her mother was deceased and her two brothers and father did not offer the safe haven she was seeking.

[56] After almost three years, her husband was prosecuted.

[57] He pled guilty to 25 felony charges of child pornography.

[58] He was sentenced to eight years and he only did three.

[59] One piece of Erin's story that really affected our listeners was how difficult it was to start over.

[60] She lost her livelihood and her husband's income.

[61] At one point, Erin applied for welfare.

[62] Then there was her family.

[63] Although there were many family members who helped and supported her, her nuclear family did not seem to find Joel's crimes as troubling and serious as she did.

[64] We heard from so many of you, mothers, a former prosecutor, other victims all rooting for Erin, and even listeners who wanted to send her financial support.

[65] Erin read all of it.

[66] I was blown away.

[67] I've not felt that kind of support since my mom was alive, and that was like the whole nation counteracting what I had grown up believing with kind of a low self -esteem and second -guessing my every move.

[68] And so I really think that motivated me to go, you know what?

[69] I'm really doing my best here, and so it was really miraculous, and I can't tell you how healing this podcast was for me. One thing that really gets me is when people wrote to me and they said, I wish I had a mom like you.

[70] My mom was great.

[71] My mom was amazing.

[72] She had cancer for 26 years, and she never dropped a ball.

[73] I mean, she was really, really fantastic, and I always wished that everyone had a mother like her.

[74] It's an honor to her also that I'm making good choices and that I'm looking out for my kids and that I keep them number one.

[75] Once Aaron's ex -husband Joel was released from prison in Texas, he moved in with his parents.

[76] It was only about a mile from where Erin and her children were living.

[77] When he got out, I got the restraining order and he got award.

[78] visitation with the kids in a supervised facility.

[79] Erin managed to avoid those visits while other parental litigation was still pending.

[80] Then the lawyer called me and said he just got arrested again.

[81] And when we looked it up online, it did mention possession of child pornography.

[82] And I still don't know the details of all of that.

[83] But it sounds as though he...

[84] He may have had his first parole check the first time in a year.

[85] And they found some things on his phone like social media, which we've learned is a common way that people share C -SAM material.

[86] I'm John Walsack, host of the new podcast Missing in Arizona.

[87] And I'm Robert Fisher, one of the most wanted men in the world.

[88] We cloned his voice using AI.

[89] In 2001, police say I killed my family.

[90] First mom, then the kids.

[91] rigged my house to explode in a quiet suburb this is the beverly hills of the valley before escaping into the wilderness there was sleet and hail and snow coming down they found my wife's SUV right on the reservation boundary and my dog blew all i could think of is in the sniper me out of some tree but not me police believe he is alive and hiding somewhere for two years they won't tell you anything i've traveled the nation i'm going down in the cave tracking down clues they were thinking that i picked him up and took him somewhere.

[92] If you keep asking me this, I'm going to call the police and have you removed.

[93] Searching for Robert Fisher.

[94] One of the most dangerous fugitives in the world.

[95] Do you recognize my voice?

[96] Join an exploding house.

[97] The hunt.

[98] Family annihilation.

[99] Today.

[100] And a disappearing act.

[101] Listen to missing in Arizona every Wednesday on the Iheart radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your favorite shows.

[102] The podium is back with fresh angles and deep dives into Olympic and Paralympic stories you know.

[103] And those you'll be hard pressed to forget.

[104] I didn't something in 88 that hasn't been beaten.

[105] Gosh, the U .S. only have a trials is the hardest and most competitive meat in the world.

[106] We are athletes for going out there, smashing into each other, full force.

[107] Listen to The Podium on the I -Heart app or your favorite podcast platform weekly and every day during the Games to hear the Olympics like you've never quite heard them before.

[108] In the summer of 2020, in the small mountain town of Idlewild, California, five women disappeared in the span of just a few months.

[109] Eventually, I found out what happened to the women, all except one.

[110] A woman named Lydia Abrams, known as Dia.

[111] Her friends and family ran through endless theories.

[112] Was she hurt hiking?

[113] Did she run away?

[114] Had she been kidnapped?

[115] I'm Lucy Sherrith.

[116] I've been reporting this story for four years, and I've uncovered a tangled web of manipulative.

[117] estranged families and greed.

[118] Everyone, it seems, has a different version of events.

[119] Hear the story on Where's Deer, my new podcast from Pushkin Industries and IHeart Podcasts.

[120] Listen on the IHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen to podcasts.

[121] Joel Lovell Callahan was arraigned on September 26, 2023, in the Superior Court of Fresno, and assigned a public defender.

[122] He denied the public defender so that he could hire a private criminal law attorney.

[123] He has a private family law attorney, which has bought him quite a bit of time out in the free world.

[124] Erin has kept moving forward and stayed focused on building a healthy life with her two kids.

[125] She's a licensed therapist in California.

[126] My private practice is what I would consider very successful, I'm very comfortable and able to give my children the life that I want without needing child support for relying on that.

[127] Erin moved her family a few hours away to a beach community for a fresh start.

[128] That is just like going from the depths of hell all the way to heaven.

[129] I've already seen so much healing happening in myself, which I think trickles down to them as well.

[130] They love where we live.

[131] They said it's like being on vacation every day.

[132] We have a lot more fresh -grown local produce here.

[133] So another part of our healing was having better nutrition.

[134] So we're working on diets.

[135] We're working on mental health.

[136] We like to go to the park a lot.

[137] We feel safer.

[138] Erin lived in fear for a long time.

[139] At one point, she felt she needed to be armed.

[140] A year ago, I was walking around with a gunstrap to my person.

[141] I had my concealed carry weapons permit, and I didn't even want to leave to go to the office without that.

[142] And out here also, like, we live in a very safe area that I feel like we can sleep with the windows open and hear the ocean outside.

[143] Her son has become a top runner in his school.

[144] Her daughter just won an award for writing.

[145] They're thriving.

[146] Still, heartbreak sneaks up every once in a while, especially around the holidays.

[147] Thanksgiving just passed.

[148] By my brother hosted Joel and his family for Thanksgiving, whereas we were in a town with no familiar faces.

[149] And, you know, no one familiar to celebrate that with.

[150] And that's just like, you just continue to keep stabbing me in the heart.

[151] Erin does not want Joel to have rights to the kids at all.

[152] Her fight in court is for him to be removed as a parent.

[153] I'm prepared to fire on all cylinders, but I hope for my sanity that I don't have to keep proving why he shouldn't have visitations more than he's trying to prove why he should.

[154] I genuinely think I'm probably still doing more to help Joel than anybody else is.

[155] You know, how much of a privilege is it to say, I've got our kids, I will take great care of them while you take the time to figure your life out or clean your life up or whatever you've got to do.

[156] I can't make our kids not love him.

[157] I can't make them disown him or anything like that.

[158] And so if they want to have a relationship with him when they get older or they have questions about their health or whatever, that is still on the table.

[159] And so all I'm trying to do is keep them out of that equation so that they're not affected and give them a nice, comfortable life so that they don't have to endure.

[160] everything that he's putting them through.

[161] I'm trying to give him and my children both the space that they need to get healthy and myself as well.

[162] I mean, I've been severely damaged with trust and trauma through a lot of this.

[163] And so we need to be able to untether in order to show up for one another.

[164] How do you measure recovery for someone who consumes CSAM?

[165] Do services provided in prison cure the addiction?

[166] It's something we talked about during the series, and there isn't a clear answer.

[167] His whole case was precipitating on the fact that they thought he was reformed, and clearly he's not reformed.

[168] And I think it's a lot of people who don't work in mental health that don't know what is required to treat addiction or treat this type of abusive behavior.

[169] here.

[170] Maybe they do think church is enough.

[171] Maybe they do think that court consequences are enough.

[172] But I know through direct experience, having worked with people with similar attributes, that that is not enough.

[173] You need a lot more accountability, a lot more handholding out of that.

[174] Because, you know, he didn't become addicted to things in a day.

[175] He's not going to recover in a day.

[176] So I just wish that there was more mental health woven into that equation so that they could look at it from that perspective.

[177] But I am not convinced, and his reoffence just supported what my feeling was this whole time.

[178] It was really good to find out how Erin has been doing since betrayal season two first dropped.

[179] We'll be back soon with an update on Ashley Lytton.

[180] You can always reach out to our team at Betrayalpod at gmail .com That's Betrayal P -O -D at Gmail .com.

[181] Thank you for listening.

[182] Betrayal is a production of Glass Podcasts, a division of Glass Entertainment Group and partnership with I -Hart Podcasts.

[183] The show was executive produced by Nancy Glass and Jennifer Fasin.

[184] Hosted and produced by me, Andrea Gunning, written and produced by Carrie Hartman, also produced by Ben Federman, Associate producer, Kristen Malkyrie.

[185] Our I -Hart team is Pally Perry and Jessica Crinecheck, audio editing and mixing by Matt Dalvecchio, Trails theme composed by Oliver Baines, music library provided by Mide Music.

[186] And for more podcasts from IHeart, visit the IHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.

[187] I'm John Walzac, host of the new podcast Missing in Arizona.

[188] And I'm Robert Fisher, one of the most wanted men in the world.

[189] We cloned his voice using AI.

[190] In 2001, police say I killed my family and rigged my house to a Explode.

[191] Before escaping into the wilderness.

[192] Police believe he is alive and hiding somewhere.

[193] Join me. I'm going down in the cave.

[194] As I track down clues.

[195] I'm going to call the police and have you removed.

[196] Hunting.

[197] One of the most dangerous fugitives in the world.

[198] Robert Fisher.

[199] Do you recognize my voice?

[200] Listen to missing in Arizona every Wednesday on the IHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your favorite shows.

[201] The podium is back with fresh angles and deep dives into Olympic and Paralympic stories you know.

[202] And those, you'll be hard to.

[203] pressed to forget.

[204] I did something in 88 that hasn't been beaten.

[205] Oh, gosh, the U .S. only of the trials is the hardest and most competitive meat in the world.

[206] We are athletes for going out there smashing into each other, full force.

[207] Listen to The Podium on the IHeart app or your favorite podcast platform weekly and every day during the games to hear the Olympics like you've never quite heard them before.

[208] In 2020, in a small California mountain town, five women disappeared.

[209] I found out what happened to all of them.

[210] except one, a woman known as Dia, whose estate is worth millions of dollars.

[211] I'm Lucy Sheriff.

[212] Over the past four years, I've spoken with Dia's family and friends, and I've discovered that everyone has a different version of events.

[213] Hear the story on Where's Deer?

[214] Listen on the IHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen to podcasts.