Laura Beil

[0] Happy Thanksgiving.

[1] Happy Thanksgiving.

[2] And welcome to armchair expert.

[3] Experts on expert.

[4] So listen, we have a great, great guest today.

[5] Laura Beale, we've talked about Dr. Death on here a bunch.

[6] It's definitely our favorite podcast last year.

[7] Incredibly good.

[8] And when we won a podcast award, we promptly said that they should have won.

[9] Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[10] Right?

[11] Yeah.

[12] So we have Laura Beal, the journalist behind Dr. Death.

[13] She's a journalist with more than 20 years of experience and health.

[14] and science writing, and she has a new podcast called Bad Batch, which is all so dang delicious.

[15] Tasty.

[16] She's awesome.

[17] You know, we don't regularly get to talk with a real hound dog journalist.

[18] Yeah, it's true.

[19] It was really cool.

[20] It was.

[21] Now, as far as Thanksgiving.

[22] Yeah, tell me. Well, I just want to give thanks.

[23] Oh, yeah, let's give thanks.

[24] Yeah, I want to give thanks for my family.

[25] Yeah.

[26] Without them, I just don't know what joy exists in my life.

[27] I'm grateful for this podcast most.

[28] I'm grateful that I'm healthy.

[29] Yeah.

[30] I complain about certain things, arthritis and everything, but that's bullshit.

[31] That's nothing.

[32] Yeah, that's true.

[33] Big fucking whoop.

[34] Yeah.

[35] What are you grateful for?

[36] I'm grateful for, I'm grateful that we're going to get a new Charlie calendar soon.

[37] Yeah, I look forward to that.

[38] That'll be good.

[39] Uh -huh.

[40] Yeah, I'm, all those things.

[41] Our friendship circle?

[42] Barry.

[43] That's my number one other, my family.

[44] community yeah yeah i everywhere we go it's like it doesn't matter where we go it's just all about who you're with and we are with the most fun people and i'm filled with so much joy and love because all them yeah me too yeah i'm very grateful for you i'm grateful for you i'm a little less grateful for wabi wab but very grateful for wabi wop but rob what are you grateful for him i'm grateful for you guys oh thank you and calvin and natalie calvin coolidge you're a nice family boy he's got a real cute little Bronco made.

[45] He does.

[46] Calvin Coolidge.

[47] Calvin Coolidge, a positive man in history?

[48] Yeah.

[49] Okay.

[50] Yeah.

[51] Great.

[52] We didn't name him after him, though, for the record.

[53] Well, are you sure?

[54] You can retroactively be named after him.

[55] Okay.

[56] Yeah.

[57] Anyways, happy Thanksgiving.

[58] I hope everyone's having a wonderful time with their family and a lot of.

[59] T is.

[60] Wondry plus subscribers can listen to armchair expert early and ad free right now.

[61] Join Wondry Plus in the Wondry app or on Apple Podcasts.

[62] Or you can listen for free wherever you get your podcasts.

[63] He's an armchair expert.

[64] He's an armchair Xxed.

[65] Well, we just had a really unique experience.

[66] We've interviewed so many people.

[67] We have yet to sit down and have some Taco Bell with someone before we started.

[68] It's the first.

[69] I feel so honored.

[70] Good.

[71] Good.

[72] This is not an endorsement of Taco Bell.

[73] It's not.

[74] It's just a fact that you came in and Wabiwob had just brought over a sack of Taco Bell.

[75] And I offered you a Taco Supreme.

[76] And I was delighted that you took it.

[77] You know, I have not had Taco Bell in some time.

[78] Yes.

[79] That's what happened to us, too.

[80] And you know, I've never woken up and said, you know what?

[81] I think I want some Taco Bell tonight.

[82] Even when hungover?

[83] Do you ever wake up hungover?

[84] I've been hungover in years.

[85] You haven't.

[86] No. Oh, okay.

[87] And I haven't been hungover that much ever.

[88] Really?

[89] No. Okay.

[90] I'm 15 years sober.

[91] So I had a decade of horrendous hangovers.

[92] So this would be a judgment -free zone if you had had some hangovers.

[93] I've had many.

[94] Yeah.

[95] Monica's still working on them.

[96] Laura, are you originally from Texas?

[97] Yes, with an asterisk.

[98] So I was actually born here in Los Angeles.

[99] Oh, really?

[100] My dad was in graduate school here.

[101] at what school.

[102] He's a PhD physicist.

[103] No shit.

[104] And so he was working out here when I was born, but then when I was about six weeks old, like super tiny.

[105] My parents moved back for more graduate school from my dad.

[106] Oh, okay.

[107] But then eventually, you know, again with his schooling, I lived a little bit in Germany because he went to the Max Blank Institute, again, you know, following him around.

[108] And then we were back.

[109] in Texas, but Texas is where a family's from.

[110] It's home.

[111] And Max Planck, was he a famous physicist or something?

[112] Now you're going to ask me something I don't know.

[113] I believe, the Max Planck Institute, I believe, is part of Johannes Gutenberg University.

[114] You're going to fact check, right?

[115] I will.

[116] I'll fact check it, yeah.

[117] It already sounded really complicated and impressive.

[118] Yeah, and correct.

[119] Just throwing out the name Gutenberg.

[120] Yeah.

[121] So from the time I was in about second grade, we moved from Houston to this small town in East Texas called Marr.

[122] Marshall.

[123] We are Marshall?

[124] No, different Marshall.

[125] Oh, different Marshall.

[126] You got really excited.

[127] Yeah.

[128] Yeah.

[129] So, and so from the time that I was probably second grade on, I grew up in this small town.

[130] And so that's what I consider home as Marshall, Texas.

[131] And was dad working in the refinement at that point?

[132] My dad is actually my hero.

[133] And until he passed away, we were super close.

[134] So my dad was working at some, you know, lucrative job in Houston.

[135] But my parents were also kind of on the side sort of Methodist social justice do -gooders.

[136] Uh -huh.

[137] So they were involved with an organization, Methodist organization in Houston.

[138] Through that connection, my dad met a man who would become the president of Wiley College in Marshall, which is a HBCU in Marshall.

[139] Okay.

[140] He became president of Wiley, and he invited my dad to come up and be part of the faculty there at this small college.

[141] My dad saw this as an opportunity to do good and teach.

[142] But in theory, status -wise, if you're climbing the status ladder, this is a step down.

[143] Yes.

[144] Well, in money, yes.

[145] But you could say that teaching is an elevated profession.

[146] I think teaching.

[147] It is.

[148] But then within that, you're probably trying to go to first UT or, right?

[149] I mean, there would be a hierarchy.

[150] Right.

[151] Maybe he'd want to be back at UCLA or who knows.

[152] Yeah.

[153] So he moved there because he wanted to.

[154] to, they wanted to do good.

[155] And so we moved to Marshall.

[156] How big of a town is this?

[157] So at that time, it probably had 18 ,000.

[158] Okay.

[159] So that's pretty good sign.

[160] It's a small town, but still.

[161] There were not one, but two dairy queens.

[162] Oh, that says a lot.

[163] We had dairy queen number one and dairy queen number two.

[164] And you knew which was which.

[165] What college did you end up going to?

[166] I went to Texas A &M.

[167] And I was going to be a doctor.

[168] All right.

[169] And so I went there for pre -med, and my senior year, I applied to medical school, and I took the MCAT.

[170] And the way that medical school admissions work at that time, I don't know, it might still be the same thing.

[171] But it's kind of a rolling admission, like, you know, when the first acceptances go out in January.

[172] So I didn't get in the first round.

[173] So I thought, okay, well, what am I going to do now?

[174] and I had always loved writing and so I thought I could try journalism so I applied to go to U .T. Austin and study journalism and the short story is then I ended up getting into medical school and journalism school.

[175] Oh, really?

[176] So I did get in later and then I had to pick, you know, and it was late so I'd already kind of had time to think about going into journalism and journalism at that point just seemed like more fun.

[177] And interesting because I realize to this day, like, I have the best job in the world because I still love medicine.

[178] I still love science.

[179] I'm still around it all the time.

[180] Yeah.

[181] But I can just pick like that little part of it that I really want to learn about.

[182] And so I'm constantly learning something new.

[183] And how many jobs do you have where you can just learn something new all the time?

[184] Oh, yeah.

[185] If dad was hero and dad was a scientist, did you feel like you were letting him down by choosing the journalism path instead of the, Oh no. No. I remember when the first byline that I ever had was, you know, at the student newspaper, the Daily Texan, which is still around and it's a great student newspaper.

[186] So I got a job working at the student newspaper and I had my first byline there and I called him.

[187] I said, Dad, dad, I had a story like in the paper and he said, did it say by Laura Beale?

[188] I said, it did.

[189] It did.

[190] I had a byline and he was just as happy about it.

[191] So you graduated from UT.

[192] Did you love Austin?

[193] We think it's just the best place, right?

[194] Yes, I love Austin and it's the best place.

[195] It is the best place.

[196] And my daughter's there now.

[197] Aren't you jealous?

[198] I do.

[199] I look for any flimsy excuse to come to Austin.

[200] Yeah.

[201] I still love the city.

[202] It's wonderful.

[203] So I live there in Austin.

[204] I went to grad school, got journalism degree.

[205] And then I never wanted to do anything but science, medical journalism, like from the outset.

[206] that's the subject I loved.

[207] It's the subject I still love.

[208] I didn't think I could do that right away.

[209] I thought I have to go to work for some small paper.

[210] You know, at that time, the entry into journalism was, you know, you go to a paper, you work night cops.

[211] So I thought, okay, well, I'll do that.

[212] But I got really lucky because the very first job I had was at a paper in Shreveport, Louisiana.

[213] There was still an afternoon paper then, which they don't even exist now.

[214] And I got to cover medicine, like right away.

[215] I did a whole series on sort of diseases of the poor, you know, in poverty, you get different illnesses for different reasons and because of inequities and care.

[216] And so, no, I was able to cover a lot there.

[217] And I'm very grateful.

[218] And one of things that is especially good, that feeling of working for an afternoon paper.

[219] So if you don't know, if you're working for a paper that's coming out that same day, you have to have your story done by 11 o 'clock in the morning maybe.

[220] Oh, really?

[221] So that sense of really having to think on your feet, every daily journalist has this skill and you have to learn it, but you really learn it at an afternoon paper.

[222] Like you go to a press conference in the morning and you would walk over to a payphone and dictate your story into the phone.

[223] Oh, no. Yeah.

[224] So those kind of experiences were really great training.

[225] So does it get you good at honing in on what the actual take is.

[226] Exactly.

[227] Yeah.

[228] And how to organize yourself quickly.

[229] I think to this day, I don't do the daily journalism now, but to this day, I mean, that's a helpful skill.

[230] And it's not unique to me. I mean, all daily journalists can do that.

[231] It's not like it's magic.

[232] I mean, if you're in daily journalism, you do this and you know, like, how to think quickly, how to write quickly.

[233] But especially at a paper where the deadlines are that tight.

[234] And I remember when I, then I went to regular paper, I went to Baton Rouge, And then I was at the Dallas Morning News.

[235] And there I had till 5 o 'clock to do the story.

[236] I'm like, God, that is so much time.

[237] Yeah.

[238] I do imagine that being in that creative box with those constraints have some upside.

[239] One of them being procrastination is not even on the table.

[240] No. Like, you find it sometimes it's even harder when you have time or extra time.

[241] Oh, yeah.

[242] And occasionally, if I give a talk at a like a journalism class or something to.

[243] high school students and somebody raise their hand and say, well, what if your deadline comes and you're not finished yet?

[244] And I'm like, that train is leaving the station.

[245] Like, you are done.

[246] Yes.

[247] I have, I can tell you, I have never turned in a story because it was finished.

[248] I turn in a story because it's due.

[249] Right.

[250] Interesting.

[251] That's fascinating.

[252] Yeah.

[253] And then within that is there some collateral damage?

[254] Like, do you feel like, oh shit, I could have gotten so much more?

[255] Oh, yeah.

[256] It is torture.

[257] or sometimes to go back and read your old stuff.

[258] And I tend to have like perfectionist tendencies as any editor can tell you or the podcast producers can tell you, I obsess over details and small stuff.

[259] And it's hard to let that go.

[260] But it's a wonderful life lesson.

[261] Because life is so often just about, yep, I did what I could do.

[262] And now it's time to just keep it moving.

[263] I mean, it's just in general good life pattern to be in.

[264] Yeah.

[265] Yeah.

[266] I mean, you should be self -critical and everything.

[267] but also the train as you say is flying down the tracks and that's that so yeah it is sort of liberating and also I obsess over things so much that some part of me is hard to let it go and part of me is by the time it's done I am so sick of it I'm ready to be yeah for sure that's that combination yeah so you're in tree port and then you eventually go to Dallas to the Dallas right so the paper went out of business okay so it was my first layoff in journalism and print journalists.

[268] So then I had to have a job.

[269] Right.

[270] So I went to Baton Rouge and I went to the advocate and I stayed there for not that long.

[271] It was probably less than a year and then I got a call from the Dallas Morning News, which had always been my dream job.

[272] Oh, it had.

[273] I'm from Texas.

[274] I grew up in Texas.

[275] The Dallas Morning News was in my mind the great flagship paper in Texas and they had at that time a weekly science section.

[276] That was amazing.

[277] It was back when papers had money and they could produce this standalone science section, which was really, really great.

[278] And I wanted to work for that and for, it was a kind of a legendary editor of that section, Tom Siegfried, who was, you know, and I wanted to work for him and I wanted to learn.

[279] And so he called me and said, would you like to apply for this job?

[280] And of course, like, yeah.

[281] So, so then I went to the Dallas More News.

[282] And that's where I spent like the most of my print career.

[283] I was probably there about 15 years.

[284] And in covering all these different medical issues, did it lend itself to hypochondri?

[285] I'm imagining Monica having this job and she would just every day would be convinced she had Legionaire's disease.

[286] I think there's a name for it like medical student syndrome or something.

[287] Oh, really?

[288] I could be wrong about that.

[289] Were you think you have everything?

[290] Everything you read about the symptoms of, you have it.

[291] Oh, that would 100 % be me. I even noticed in my mother -in -law when we, 12 years ago when we met, she was very concerned about my wife being on the pill because she as a nurse would see women come in with strokes.

[292] And I'm like, you're definitely seeing that.

[293] There's no question about that.

[294] I agree you're seeing it.

[295] But I do think it's inordinately high in your life.

[296] If you just look at the numbers, I'd be much more worried she's going to die in a car accident.

[297] It's just she has 15 ,000 chance higher of dying in a car accident.

[298] But because you happen to see this all time, I can see where it feels like it's ever present.

[299] You do realize all the ways that the body.

[300] can go wrong when you write about it.

[301] And so I sort of tend to really marvel at the human body.

[302] Like when you know everything that can go wrong, some days I'm amazed that so many people live for so long without anything happening to them when you see like, oh, this could happen and this.

[303] Oh, yeah.

[304] You're aware of our vulnerability.

[305] Yes.

[306] Yeah, because as you say, you can get a parasite, you can get an autoimmune, you could get a tumor, you could get, you know, there's a trillion glitches and yeah in genetics or you know and and the body has an amazing ability to repair itself and you realize this when you realize things that can go wrong and you realize how the body is capable of repairing itself as well so I don't have that but I think I'm in this business because I do love medicine I do love the subject and I do love learning about things that happen yeah it's endlessly miraculous like even as you understand it more and more just kind of gets more and more impressive with what's happening on an atomic level in our bodies.

[307] Yeah.

[308] So how long were you at the Dallas?

[309] I was there for about 15 years.

[310] Mm -hmm.

[311] And then the newspaper industry really started having problems.

[312] And so I left in about 2006 or 2007.

[313] I can't remember now.

[314] And it's been more than 10 years.

[315] And the paper was downsizing.

[316] And I took a buyout.

[317] I quit.

[318] And I did it for a number of reasons.

[319] One is it's just hard to stay at a place where you never know when the next round of layoffs is going to be.

[320] Yes, you see the trend on the graph and you know exactly where this is going.

[321] And it's just how long before.

[322] And it's hard.

[323] You've got to have like one of the key components of like a fulfilling job is like some kind of optimism or hope that things are going to grow and get better and bigger and all these things.

[324] And to know it's that's not the trajectory.

[325] Right.

[326] And sort of Damocles is going to fall at any moment.

[327] Yeah.

[328] And it was just, so that's part of it.

[329] And part of it was, also my kids were little.

[330] Uh -huh.

[331] So it was, two.

[332] Two.

[333] A girl?

[334] One girl, one boy.

[335] Oh, okay.

[336] I didn't want to stop working, but I wanted to be more present for them.

[337] And I was lucky in that I thought I could do that and still make a living.

[338] And so I started working from home.

[339] As a freelance journalist, were you largely getting put in newspapers or magazines or both?

[340] It was magazines.

[341] So when I quit, I had zero magazine contacts, like none.

[342] Right.

[343] And I did know the science writer, editor at the New York Times.

[344] So I had a story that I wanted to do.

[345] And so I sent a message to the person I knew at the New York Times.

[346] And I was like, great.

[347] You know, it's the story.

[348] I did the story.

[349] And then it ended up being on the front page of the New York Times.

[350] Like very first freelance story right out of the shoe.

[351] Oh, wow.

[352] And that's a great way to kind of launch a freelance career.

[353] Sure.

[354] What was it on?

[355] It was on abstinence education in Texas.

[356] Oh, wow, yeah.

[357] The story was looking at what is the evidence, because at that time it was really having a heyday.

[358] Like, if we just teach kids to say no. And, you know, that's worked so well for all things.

[359] All things.

[360] We know one thing about teenagers is that they always say no. Oh, yeah.

[361] And the only reason that they're having sex is because no one is ever.

[362] told them not.

[363] That's right.

[364] That's right.

[365] But there were programs out there for abstinence education.

[366] And so I was lucky in that I had gotten a fellowship from the Kaiser Foundation to really look into this.

[367] So I was able to spend a long time really looking at the evidence.

[368] And what is a long time?

[369] I spent probably eight or nine months.

[370] Like doing, yeah.

[371] So it was a great program through the Kaiser Family Foundation.

[372] So this was a program that they used to have four journalists, you know, where they would give you fellowship to really look into some subject that you really wanted to take a deep dive into.

[373] And I wanted to because these programs were springing up all over Texas.

[374] And I wrote this story.

[375] It's on the front page of New York Times, which was a great springboard.

[376] And eventually over the years, I built up context in the magazine world.

[377] Really quick, this is like a cliffhanger ending.

[378] What was the conclusion?

[379] Oh, I know.

[380] Yeah.

[381] Yeah.

[382] Well, teen pregnancy is a very complex subject.

[383] There's not a simple reason and there's not a simple solution.

[384] And the problem with abstinence education is it presents a simple solution to a complicated problem.

[385] And, you know, there are all kinds of reasons that teenagers are having sex.

[386] And it's probably different for each one.

[387] And so you can't do some kind of blanket program and expect to do anything about the problems.

[388] There's not going to be a magic bullet for it.

[389] Well, one thing you do what is the birth control pill works pretty good in preventing teenage pregnancy.

[390] And sex education also helps because if you don't provide teenagers with accurate information, who are they going to turn to?

[391] They're going to turn to each other.

[392] Yeah, exactly.

[393] And their friends are probably just as misinformed as they are.

[394] Oh, yeah.

[395] So if you provide accurate information to kids, you know, the adults need to do it.

[396] And ultimately, you know, it should come from the parents.

[397] It should come from the parents.

[398] Yeah.

[399] But parents are, you know, mortified to talk, you know, not all.

[400] Well, A, they're mortified.

[401] there's all kinds of different socioeconomic issues where some people aren't around.

[402] Some people have three jobs.

[403] Some people are single parents raising four kids.

[404] There's a myriad of reasons why that doesn't get communicated.

[405] Exactly.

[406] So kids need some kind of source of accurate information, but it's a very complicated problem.

[407] Right.

[408] It's a very complicated problem.

[409] But it's not that they don't know that they could get pregnant if they have sex.

[410] Right.

[411] Yes.

[412] They get that part of it.

[413] They get that part.

[414] Although within that there's all kinds, I remember when I was a kid, it's like, oh, a girl can't get pregnant the first time.

[415] A girl can't get pregnant during her period.

[416] She can't get pregnant.

[417] You know.

[418] Exactly.

[419] She can't get pregnant if you're nursing.

[420] There's still all these weird kind of urban, legendary things about it.

[421] And that's one thing I think that sex education does is it gives you real science -based information.

[422] And there are good programs out there for kids.

[423] The other thing about it is the psychology that you have.

[424] to address.

[425] Like, is it a need for affection why some, you know, kids?

[426] Do they want approval?

[427] Is it a status thing?

[428] There's a, yeah, there's a hundred reasons.

[429] And even some things you might not think of.

[430] Like, there's one program I remember looking into it.

[431] And what they did is try to focus kids on long -term thinking, on thinking about, I'm going to go to college, I'm going to have a future, or I'm going to get this job, and thinking ahead and thinking about their futures, because one of the other contributors for a lot of kids is you just don't think past next Saturday night.

[432] Right.

[433] And so if you can see yourself or, you know, maybe you want a baby for something to love and someone who love you.

[434] There are all kinds of reasons and it's very, very complicated.

[435] And I don't presume to know all the factors about it.

[436] I just know that you can't have a simple solution.

[437] That was my takeaway.

[438] Yes.

[439] Okay.

[440] So then you, you, you, based on that, that then became successful in the magazine world.

[441] And did you end up being a staff writer at any magazine at any point?

[442] For a while, I was a regular contributor to men's health magazine.

[443] Uh -huh.

[444] They were great, and they were one of the few health magazines, which would really take a deep dive into a lot of issues.

[445] I could do a story that was, you know, really long and really went into a lot of controversial and complex issues, and I loved that.

[446] Did you care one way or another that you had baby, lopped off half of the population and that it was going to always be male -centric?

[447] No, because it's an important, you know, audience.

[448] And I was still writing for the women's magazines.

[449] But I could do, there was a great editor I worked for at the time, Peter Moore, and would allow me to just do these subjects that are important to men, but a lot of these subjects are important to women, too, just the fact that they were, right, like robotic surgery.

[450] Like I did a big story on robotic surgery and how it was taking.

[451] off.

[452] It's taking off for all kinds of surgeries and yet the evidence that it's better for a lot of procedures is not there.

[453] It's not great.

[454] It's more expensive.

[455] It's kind of cool.

[456] You know, it's got this there.

[457] But it's for a lot of these surgeries, there's not the evidence that it's better and yet it's being adopted all over the place.

[458] Are they generally like micro procedures?

[459] Yes.

[460] They are.

[461] Are they better when it's smaller versus bigger?

[462] So even, you know, regular surgeries can be small incision you don't have to have.

[463] I mean, that was the selling point.

[464] And you could get to, you know, places in the body where you wouldn't normally do.

[465] And that was the selling point.

[466] This is becoming a common part of medicine without the evidence that it's better.

[467] And it interests me because, you know, there's so much in medicine that we do that's more expensive, but it's not necessarily better.

[468] Right.

[469] And there's this perception like, oh, if it's new and it's expensive, it must be better.

[470] And that's just not the case.

[471] I mean, it may be.

[472] It may be not.

[473] Now, Dr. Death, I want to hear how you came to be involved in that, but before you do, I want you to know where we're coming from.

[474] We were nominated for this IHeart Radio Award for podcasts last year.

[475] Best New Podcasts.

[476] In our acceptance speech, which we won, I said, this is not true.

[477] Dr. Death was the best show last year by far, and this is an atrocity.

[478] I saw that.

[479] You did.

[480] I saw that.

[481] Thank you for that.

[482] Well, it's true.

[483] Your show's much better than ours.

[484] I thought that was a very generous thing to say.

[485] Well, I meant it perfectly well executed.

[486] I mean, the way you rolled out the story, the way you chose to let us know about this and this and when you gave us information, the structure that is just perfect.

[487] Well, it's really a nice thing to say.

[488] I need to point out it was not a solo project.

[489] Right.

[490] I did the reporting, but there was a team of people.

[491] Very well produced.

[492] Who made that happen.

[493] I cannot recommend that enough to people.

[494] They should stop right now.

[495] Now, listen to it and then come back to this if you haven't.

[496] But we should give a little synopsis of people haven't heard it.

[497] So I say to people, it is a story of a spinal cord surgeon who is both entirely incompetent and a raging addict.

[498] So the confluence of these two in and of themselves the worst aspects a surgeon could have.

[499] And that's true.

[500] But it's also not really a story about Christopher Dunt.

[501] It's a story about the health care system.

[502] Well, it's that.

[503] And then I also argue it's a story about American individuality and, no, this notion of work harder, try harder.

[504] And there are some things you can't work harder and try harder into.

[505] And that's the thing that we movies have taught us, right?

[506] Keep doing it enough and you'll get it right.

[507] Yes.

[508] So the story starts with one surgery in Dallas that he did where a lady passed away, but she didn't survive.

[509] the surgery.

[510] And so he basically only lasted at this hospital three days, or three days worth of surgery.

[511] He might have been there a week.

[512] So the story opens with one particular surgery.

[513] That's just everything is going wrong.

[514] Everything is going wrong.

[515] And people are trying to say things are going wrong.

[516] And that first episode is really hard to listen to.

[517] I loved it.

[518] I know where on the road we were when we put plus.

[519] hit play my wife and I. But there was a reason for starting there.

[520] It wasn't just to get your attention.

[521] It was you couldn't understand the story unless you knew how bad he was.

[522] Unless you understood from the get -go that he was making errors that surgeons never make.

[523] He wasn't just a little bit bad.

[524] He was truly a horrible surgeon.

[525] And unless you really understood that, then it was even more outrageous that he was passed from hospital to hospital.

[526] Yes, and part of the support for that obvious observation is that everyone in the operating room is aware of his blunders, right?

[527] So the nurses are seeing, they know that what's going on is wrong.

[528] And they're trying to speak up.

[529] And this has an overlap with one of my favorite chapters in a Malcolm Gladwell book, the social construct of an airplane cockpit, right?

[530] The co -pilot's sole job is to be looking for errors in the pilot.

[531] and then the pilot's supposed to be looking for airs in the co -pilot.

[532] And this process is how we make flight safe.

[533] And they look at Korean air where they just crashed like six 747s, one after another.

[534] And what they found was the culture in the cockpit for Korean pilots was one, the pilot's very high status, the co -pilot's very low status.

[535] When they would get to a city, the co -pilot was supposed to draw the bath for the pilot, serve him as dinner.

[536] There's audio recording of the pilot slapping the co -pilot in the cabin.

[537] So anytime something was going wrong, and they have the audio tape, the co -pilots pointing out what's going wrong, but it's in this very mitigated way because of the status dynamic.

[538] And so they had to retrain all these pilots.

[539] They forced them to have basically American culture within a cockpit.

[540] Korean Air pilots have to speak English now.

[541] They can't get each other's foods when they land.

[542] And so I also was thinking this whole time, oh, there's the same things happening in an operating room.

[543] It's like you have these co -pilots, basically, the nurses and the...

[544] Yeah, I mean, consider the power dynamics.

[545] between the surgeon and the nurses.

[546] Yeah, exactly.

[547] And I've heard from a lot of nurses since Dr. Death came out.

[548] And it depends where it is.

[549] So I don't want to make too big of generalizations.

[550] But the surgeon is the one in charge, and it's hard for the nurses to say anything.

[551] And some nurses, I've had an email me and say, I'd be fired if I said something.

[552] And so I think that's part of it.

[553] But also, that's not the sole reason that he was allowed to continue operating.

[554] I mean, there were systemic issues.

[555] And that was the whole point of telling the story is to point out, you know, at the end of that podcast, I hope it leaves you with a feeling of, you know, if we couldn't stop this guy.

[556] One of the most obvious worst surgeons ever to practice.

[557] Right.

[558] So how bad is the system that somebody who's just a little bit bad would get through?

[559] And one of the gratifying things I think from the feedback I've gotten is I do think it's prompted a lot of soul searching.

[560] And I've had more than one emails I've gotten saying medical students are now required to listen to this.

[561] And, you know, just to, you know, I do hope that it has prompted a lot of questions.

[562] Stay tuned for more armchair experts, if you dare.

[563] We've all been there.

[564] Turning to the internet to self -diagnose our inexplicable pains, debilitating body aches, sudden fevers, and strange rashes.

[565] Though our minds tend to spiral to worst -case scenarios, it's usually nothing, but for an unlucky few, these unsuspecting symptoms can start the clock ticking on a terrifying medical mystery.

[566] Like the unexplainable death of a retired firefighter, whose body was found at home by his son, except it looked like he had been cremated, or the time when an entire town started jumping from buildings and seeing tigers on their ceilings.

[567] Hey listeners, it's Mr. Ballin here, and I'm here to tell you about my podcast.

[568] It's called Mr. Ballin's Medical Mysteries.

[569] Each terrifying true story will be sure to keep you up at night.

[570] Follow Mr. Ballin's Medical Mysteries wherever you get your podcasts.

[571] Prime members can listen early and ad -free on Amazon Music.

[572] What's up, guys?

[573] It's your girl Kiki, and my podcast is back with a new season, and let me tell you, it's too good.

[574] And I'm diving into the brains of entertainment's best and brightest, okay?

[575] Every episode, I bring on a friend and have a real conversation.

[576] And I don't mean just friends.

[577] I mean the likes of Amy Pee.

[578] Polar, Kell Mitchell, Vivica Fox, the list goes on.

[579] So follow, watch, and listen to Baby.

[580] This is Kiki Palmer on the Wondery app or wherever you get your podcast.

[581] I got to say, for me, it passed cereal, it passed every one of them.

[582] It passed dirty John.

[583] I think Dr. Des, the best of that variety I've ever heard.

[584] And why do you think so?

[585] Why did it touch you like that?

[586] Well, A, I'm an addict, so I'm so drawn to that guy's story.

[587] You know, I'm seeing a side of it probably that most people can't relate to.

[588] which is I did lots of stuff I should have never done as an addict.

[589] Like, I carry around the shame of that.

[590] I understand the plausibility of how you find yourself in a situation where, oh, boy, I was supposed to have gone to bed last night and I didn't, but here I am.

[591] Now what?

[592] If I cop to this, the whole house of cards falls, I think I can do this.

[593] But you weren't during neurosurgery.

[594] I wasn't doing neurosurgery, but I did other stuff that was, you know, shamefully irresponsible.

[595] that I never heard anyone, thank God, but really by the luck of the universe, I didn't.

[596] So I was drawn to it for that reason.

[597] The intimacy of an operation, like the six people huddled around this little area.

[598] There's almost a claustrophobia to it that I think triggered a lot of mirror nirani type.

[599] You know, you're really feeling it.

[600] And then of course, the person's not operating on your liver or your foot, something you can live without.

[601] They are fucking with the most delicate and important part of our whole being.

[602] So the stakes are just supremely high.

[603] I got to tell you, I had foot surgery a week after I listened to Dr. Death.

[604] Now, and then there was nothing life -threatening was going to happen in the operating room with my foot, but I was talking to the nurses beforehand and I said to them, hey, I'll be out cold.

[605] Be my voice.

[606] Like, speak up.

[607] I want you to know you please speak for me like i said that in response to having heard this like fucking call it throw a red flag whatever right but there were instances where people were speaking up and they just weren't being listened to that's very true one of the most profound moments of dr death is you have the records of how many surgeries during his residency he was a part of he was in medical school and residency in memphis and then he did a fellowship after that all of that happened in So everyone in Memphis lives behind a legal fortress that I could not get through.

[608] Oh, really?

[609] Yes.

[610] Any of his supervisors that he had during his training, I was not able to talk to them.

[611] Right.

[612] So you spoke, though, not to say his professor, but you basically said he only sat in on a hundred and some operations.

[613] So that number, right, that number came from the district attorney.

[614] Okay.

[615] So the district attorney also wanted to know how much training he had had.

[616] And she had something that we don't have as journalists.

[617] She had subpoena power.

[618] Uh -huh.

[619] So she subpoenaed for records from every hospital where he said that he had operated.

[620] And she only got back 100 records from that.

[621] Now, one thing about that figure is we don't actually know how many surgeries he did.

[622] So the possibility is that he did the requisite number of surgeries that he was supposed to do and he was still bad.

[623] Right.

[624] Or he didn't and he was still bad.

[625] Yeah.

[626] and that he was let out of his residency and they didn't know how bad he was and they let him go or they let him out and they did know how bad he was.

[627] But none of those scenarios...

[628] None are comforting.

[629] None are comforting.

[630] So you're saying the subpoena says he did 100 surgeries or whatever.

[631] And as a layperson, I'm like, well, that's a lot of surgeries, 100 surgeries.

[632] Oh, no. And then when you guys spoke to a dean or somebody, he said, no, the average number would be a couple thousand someone would do, right?

[633] The number was, it was like 20 times what the subpoena suggests that he had done.

[634] I don't know if it, yeah, and I don't remember what the numbers are, but it was only astronomical.

[635] Yes, it was only a fraction of what he could have done.

[636] A fraction.

[637] But again, like, okay, so maybe he did more, but he still got to Dallas and couldn't operate.

[638] Right.

[639] And I find it hard to believe if the argument is, well, he was a great surgeon when he left Memphis.

[640] then how did he get to Dallas and suddenly not know basic anatomy?

[641] Right.

[642] I don't think that could be his addiction as an addict.

[643] I still knew what I knew.

[644] You know what I'm saying?

[645] There was no point where I had forgotten what I know or I wasn't aware.

[646] I didn't know anatomy or I didn't know mitosis or all these things I learned in school.

[647] But it is hard to know how much the addiction stuff was a part of that equation.

[648] But he was apparently doing drugs in medical school.

[649] Right.

[650] He was sent to rehab.

[651] I have when he was there.

[652] And then when he started his little research company, too, his partners found him doing Coke several times, right?

[653] Yeah.

[654] So it also isn't true that he was fine and he was not doing any drugs or anything when he was in his training.

[655] And then he got to Dallas and started doing that.

[656] Right.

[657] Nothing big changed.

[658] No. No. So he operates on his buddy.

[659] They've been friends for however many years.

[660] The buddy says he has this longstanding football.

[661] injury that needs addressing.

[662] He injures him severely in the operation.

[663] The buddy will never really say he did anything wrong, right?

[664] He's really hesitant to talk poorly of his friend.

[665] The buddy admits that they were up doing cocaine that night, the night before the surgery.

[666] Well, he says that.

[667] Yes.

[668] But there's evidence that that actually wasn't true.

[669] Interesting.

[670] Because here's my take on that.

[671] I believe the buddy and he were like, hey, if we want an endless year supply of oxy, all I got to do is open you up, do a couple things, sew you back up, and then we'll be good.

[672] We'll have this source of opiates for a year and a half.

[673] Because why the buddy is guilty of something.

[674] The reason that the buddy would never turn on him, I think, is the buddy had a role in that thing.

[675] He was a part of some ploy by which he.

[676] he felt guilty.

[677] He kind of knew what he was getting into and it went bad as it does go bad when you have a stupid scheme.

[678] The one flaw in that theory is that apparently he was already writing bogus prescriptions.

[679] Like he didn't need that to do it because one of his older friends that I, his friends from Memphis who I interviewed in the podcast, I think this might have been in there where suddenly his friend gets a call from the pharmacy and says, oh, your prescriptions are ready.

[680] And he says, I didn't have any.

[681] prescriptions.

[682] And so he goes and he gets like a list of all these...

[683] Opiates and benzos and I can't remember what it was.

[684] So if he wanted to write bogus prescriptions to get the drugs, he didn't have to operate on his friend to do that.

[685] So I'm not saying that's outside the realm of possibility.

[686] I'm standing by this theory, but it definitely stinks of two junkies to me. Well, then when the girlfriends said that they...

[687] Yeah, the girlfriend said that they...

[688] And I believe They hadn't gone to bed at five in the morning.

[689] Right.

[690] So she was with him the night before, and she says it didn't happen.

[691] And I'm inclined to believe her.

[692] So I think they probably did plenty of Coke and drugs or whatever.

[693] But I don't think they did it that night.

[694] I believe what she said.

[695] So I think not that they didn't.

[696] Isn't that interesting because I believe they did stay up all night?

[697] And it could be.

[698] I think if that's the road you're on, that's the road you're on.

[699] I can't see.

[700] Nothing like in those moments they're not tomorrow's never coming.

[701] Oh shit, tomorrow's here.

[702] We got to go to the hospital.

[703] Well, and and remember too.

[704] So remember the very last surgery that he did, which was over a year later.

[705] The one where he sewed up the sponge in the man's throat.

[706] Oh, yes.

[707] So in that one, he showed up to the surgery late in a cab wearing dirty jeans.

[708] and looking terrible.

[709] So I think certainly, you know, I'm not saying that he did every surgery sober, but I'm saying that maybe that won on his friend.

[710] Now, is your bullshit meter good in general, do you find?

[711] I hope so.

[712] I have interviewed a lot of people.

[713] One of my former colleagues at the Dallas Morning News said, one thing that you always want to keep in mind when you're doing an interview is everyone is telling you something for a reason.

[714] Yes.

[715] And it's usually not the reason you think it is.

[716] So in any story, any journalist, you have that in mind.

[717] Like, why is this person telling me this thing?

[718] And what's the reason?

[719] And the reason may not be bad.

[720] Right.

[721] You know, the reason may be good.

[722] It may be honorable.

[723] I think every journalist keeps in mind.

[724] Like, why is this person telling me this?

[725] Yeah, I think you've got to ask yourself that.

[726] Yeah.

[727] So Dr. Death is just phenomenal.

[728] I cannot recommend it enough.

[729] Yeah.

[730] What a ride.

[731] You'll start.

[732] It's one of the few podcasts that you've got to binge at like a great drama TV show where it's like you just got to hear that next episode.

[733] It is addictive.

[734] Did you feel that when you were doing it?

[735] Were you on the ride as well?

[736] Oh, no. When I was doing it, it's like a long project.

[737] And it feels like a lot.

[738] No, you feel more like, well, and especially with this new podcast, which was a lot, even a lot harder to put together.

[739] You have that feeling of how did I get myself into this?

[740] Yeah.

[741] So let's back up for one second because it shocked me to learn when we were eating Taco Bell that you were approached by Wondry to do the Dr. Death story.

[742] So they had put out a podcast called Dirty John.

[743] Yes, which is great.

[744] And a Dirty John listener who had actually a tie to Christopher Dunge, email them and said, well, get a load of this guy, essentially.

[745] And so they started looking for, you know, they looked up a little at the story.

[746] And it got a lot of press around in the Dallas area, including D Magazine, had done a big cover story called Dr. Death, which is where the name came from.

[747] So there was already articles about him, at least in Texas.

[748] And they looked it up and thought, well, this would be really good as a podcast.

[749] And so they were looking for a journalist in Dallas who could tell the story, who knew something about the health care system.

[750] And in Dallas, that's a pretty short list.

[751] Right.

[752] And so they contacted me to do the story.

[753] And of course, I said, well, you know, I'm a print journalist.

[754] Right.

[755] Right.

[756] And they're like, oh, that's fine, you know.

[757] So I agreed to do it.

[758] And I was under the impression when I signed off to do it.

[759] I had done one previous audio story for the NPR program, This American Life.

[760] Oh, uh -huh.

[761] And when I'd done that, there was another producer who was doing all the recording, who had the headphones and the microphone.

[762] And I just sort of did what I normally do.

[763] I was under the impression that that was going to happen this time.

[764] So imagine my great terror when a week later I get an email that says, oh, here's the tracking number for your recording equipment.

[765] And that was the first time I realized that I was going to have to record this.

[766] And I had no idea how to do it.

[767] Yes.

[768] And that was quite intimidating.

[769] There was a lot of FaceTiming back and forth, you know, with me holding up the, you know, recorder like, okay, does this dial go here?

[770] There are still buttons on the recorder that I don't know what they do.

[771] Sure.

[772] I don't touch them.

[773] I just know what I have to do.

[774] Also, at that time when you were contacted, were you a big consumer of podcasts?

[775] No. Yeah, so you're probably not even realizing the weight of a cereal or that 60 million people have consumed that.

[776] And I had like some audio, but no, not to the degree.

[777] Yeah, so in some way did it feel like, why would I want to do this?

[778] This feels like a weird step sideways at best.

[779] Yeah, it did.

[780] But then I thought, well, I should do something different.

[781] I've been in journalism a long time.

[782] And the idea of doing something different was very appealing to me. Yeah.

[783] So I did it.

[784] And I still don't entirely.

[785] I wouldn't call myself an expert at recording.

[786] In Dr. Death or in Bad Baddatch, if you hear any audio that's not quite right, that's me. Like I'm not holding the microphone just right.

[787] But did it add a level of self -consciousness when you knew you?

[788] It did at first, yeah.

[789] It was more like there were things that I had done.

[790] for years, I couldn't do like take notes.

[791] Oh, uh -huh.

[792] So when you're print journalists, you're taking notes.

[793] And even if you're recording on your phone or with a little digital recorder, you have that down, but you're still taking notes.

[794] And the idea that you would do an interview and not be able to take notes during the interview was so weird.

[795] And really quick, because I get interviewed on occasion and they record it.

[796] And then they're also writing notes.

[797] And my thought is, what the fuck are they writing down?

[798] It's on the recorder.

[799] Is it like more an idea based on something I just said less than what I just said that you're writing down?

[800] Well, when I'm taking notes for a print story, I'm writing down like white.

[801] said.

[802] Oh, you are?

[803] You know, as much as I get, yeah.

[804] Why are you doing that if it's being recorded?

[805] Because you can't rely on your recording.

[806] Well, what if you have three recordings?

[807] Well, maybe then.

[808] So that was hard, because you're used to technology failures, and every print journalist has, like, their horror story of the time that you thought you were recording your interview and you didn't.

[809] So you want some kind of backup.

[810] So the idea that you only had the recording was terrified.

[811] So one of the scary things, and this is not going to be news to anybody who does audio, but you can hear your headphones, you can hear the microphone.

[812] You can think that you're recording.

[813] Oh, sure, yeah, because it's live, yeah.

[814] And the only way that you know that it is actually recording is there's the little number ticker, the little timestamp that's going on the machine.

[815] And I would always worry that I wasn't recording when I thought I would.

[816] And so I would be talking to someone and I would glance down at the recorder obsessively.

[817] And I would have to say, you know, I'm not ignoring you.

[818] If you're telling me something and I'm looking down real quick, It's just that I want to make sure that I'm still going.

[819] And I did have a couple of energies that did stop.

[820] Either I thought I was plugged into a power outlet that turned out not to be on or batteries.

[821] Not a lot, but it's certainly happened.

[822] And so I was just uncomfortable about it in that way, recording.

[823] I did worry not having experience in audio.

[824] I worried that the microphone would be intrusive to people.

[825] Uh -huh.

[826] You know, like they would be uncomfortable.

[827] But I didn't.

[828] find that.

[829] Yes.

[830] In my experience, this is fine.

[831] There's a camera pointing at us.

[832] Now this other layer of protection goes up.

[833] That to me is the one where it's like it's hard to overcome.

[834] So having not had a great idea of just how big podcasts were and then to have worked on your first one, well, other than this American life, which is also enormous.

[835] For your first thing to have been Dr. Death, I don't know how many times that thing was downloaded, but I have to imagine it's in the millions and millions?

[836] I think it's about 40 or 50 million.

[837] That's so awesome, isn't it?

[838] Yeah.

[839] But the biggest television show on network TV is, let's say, this is us or something that's getting 11 million viewers.

[840] I mean, it's an incredible amount of people that have listened to it, isn't it?

[841] It is.

[842] It's something I didn't anticipate.

[843] When it came out, I was just hoping that somebody that I was not directly related to would listen to it.

[844] And I didn't expect it to be the way it is and the first morning that it came out, I got up and I get the kids off to school, you know, going and I come back and I thought, okay, well, I'm just going to see like if it's in the top 50 or 100, like if somebody's listening to it.

[845] And I log on to iTunes and I see it's listed at number one.

[846] Uh -huh.

[847] Wow.

[848] And then I thought, well, it's probably like some weird algorithm.

[849] Yes, like because I've been looking at it or doing something with it that it's messing up so I delete all the history on my computer.

[850] We can't believe good news, Kenney.

[851] Call it up again.

[852] And that was the first inclination I had.

[853] Yeah.

[854] That somebody other than my family was going to listen to it.

[855] Yeah.

[856] It's really incredible.

[857] Does it then get intimidating?

[858] Because you have a new one.

[859] which I've listened to the first episode, which is great.

[860] I would imagine there'd be like a Tarantino post Pulp Fiction where it's like your first album is this mega hit.

[861] And is there anxiety like, fuck, my next one has to be that good or big?

[862] I would be overcome with anxiety.

[863] Yeah.

[864] And in fact, my loving 15 -year -old son a couple weeks ago decided to give me the list of all the second projects that had really done badly.

[865] Oh, I thought about that.

[866] He's like, well, you know, Mom, season two.

[867] You know, what I'm saying?

[868] Thank you, son.

[869] I love you, too.

[870] So there is, and I think that's why for the second one, one, I didn't want to do another bad doctor story, although I got tons of emails.

[871] It was kind of depressing, like, oh, well, have you heard of this guy, you know?

[872] I didn't want to do that same story again.

[873] Well, I want you to do, but that's a sight now.

[874] If you could make six more Dr. Des, I would write your personal check right now.

[875] Why, but why do it?

[876] Like, I want to do a story that has some sort of meaning and some sort of point to.

[877] And I feel like Dr. Death was an important story, and it did point out very significant problems in the safety net.

[878] So another story would also point out those same things.

[879] And so it's fine to do a story just because it's a good story to tell.

[880] There are plenty of journalists who do a great job at that.

[881] But for me personally, like, I want to do a story that conveys an idea that would help people, you know, this information.

[882] I mean, that's the point of telling Dr. Death.

[883] I mean, it's a compelling story.

[884] But at the end of it, you are better for being more educated.

[885] Most certainly.

[886] You know, we as journalists, what do we try to do?

[887] I mean, one of the main things you try to do is hold people accountable.

[888] We hold people accountable.

[889] And I felt like Dunst is in prison.

[890] He's been held accountable.

[891] Yeah.

[892] But there were a whole lot of people who were complicit in what occurred.

[893] Yeah.

[894] And I did not think that they had been held accountable.

[895] There were people who didn't do things that they should have done.

[896] Yeah.

[897] And there was heroes within that story.

[898] And there were heroes.

[899] Yeah, Randy Kirby and Robert Henderson.

[900] Not for him fighting on his free time to make sure that this gets, you know, he's like spending a lot of time trying to.

[901] Right, the two of them.

[902] And they were getting pushback, I think, from their colleagues.

[903] Like, why are you?

[904] And that's yet another systemic problem that you articulated in Dr. Death is that to the legal ramifications of a doctor suing an institution, the lost wages that a surgeon would have, it's millions and millions of dollars.

[905] So you can see how they are incentivized to just not deal with it, which is in itself a big part of the problem, right?

[906] Right.

[907] Well, and the way that probably, I mean, the Bad Batch is a completely different story.

[908] Yes.

[909] But there are in some ways, even though they're different, there are a couple of ways that they're the same.

[910] And one of the common themes is how money perverts the system.

[911] Oh, God, yeah.

[912] Really quick.

[913] Let me just set up.

[914] Bad Batch is about STEM.

[915] cell replacement.

[916] Right, the stem cell industry.

[917] Yes.

[918] And so there's a huge stem cell industry.

[919] I've put money in that cookie jar.

[920] Oh, have you?

[921] Yeah.

[922] Oh, we should talk about that.

[923] Yeah, yeah.

[924] And it's not approved.

[925] It's not approved by the FDA.

[926] It's hugely people are paying tons of money for this because people are desperate.

[927] They're in pain.

[928] They don't want surgery.

[929] And most of the information is coming from the people trying to sell it to them.

[930] Right.

[931] And people are spending their life savings.

[932] Oh, it's heartbreaking just in the first episode, the type of people, and they're borrowing money.

[933] And all these things implicit in them is like this fundamental crossroads people get.

[934] I've had two parents die of medical stuff where it's like you're asking a normal person to value life over money, but yet the outcome's not certain.

[935] And then you feel like a terrible person that you would even be considering them.

[936] that, but often it's bullshit, especially in oncology, end -a -life stuff.

[937] It's like, it is bullshit.

[938] It's three more weeks for somebody in best -case scenario, and you're asking someone to lose their home over that, and just the moral implications.

[939] It's like so dense.

[940] Right.

[941] And it's expensive.

[942] I mean, in oncology, I'm going to get the figure wrong.

[943] Maybe Monica, you can fact check, but there's a figure for basically a huge amount of money in cancer care.

[944] is spent in the last month of life.

[945] Yeah, by the way, this topic has come up.

[946] Monica has looked it up in the past.

[947] Because I was curious, what percentage of your lifetime medical expenditures happen in that last month of life?

[948] And it's significant.

[949] You know, it's not proportional to the amount of time on Earth.

[950] And so I think the similarity is that when you're desperate, you will spend a lot of money on a chance.

[951] Yeah.

[952] And so the thing about stem cells, the reason I was drawn to this story is because people are spending a lot of money and they are desperate and they're not informed right maybe they think it's FDA approved maybe they know it's not but they're willing to take that chance the average person thinks anything a doctor's doing to them has probably been FDA approved I mean I think that's just a general assumption people have when they go to a doctor right and they're not getting the true picture and so I wanted to tell a story that would give people a true picture of an accurate information about where we are with stem cell therapy.

[953] The complicating factor is that there is a lot of promise in stem cells.

[954] Yes.

[955] There's legit promise and there's legit research going on.

[956] And it's all become tangled together in the message.

[957] You know, people have heard about the promise of stem cells.

[958] They know that there's research going on.

[959] They know the potential.

[960] And so it's hard for us as patients to untangle all of that, especially when you're getting the heart cell on it.

[961] A video online or you're going to a social.

[962] seminar in a hotel room where they're where they're trying to sell you this and it sounds great and testimonials from people whose lives have been changed right and testimonials are not data right and don't you don't you think part of its stickiness or its sellability is rooted in something that predates modern medicine or medicine at all which is it's the fountain of youth this is an old old story this is an old narrative this is an old preoccupation of humans that there would be a fountain of youth that would make you young again yes and so the concept seems logical like sure babies have stem cells the stem cells are new and they create this whole new being and oh if i can just get some of those active young stems like i'm going to infuse youth into my body it's an old fairy tale that we know and we're drawn to it yes of course renewal yes yeah and that's how they sell it to you and so i just wanted something out there that would give people a true sense that you of where we are.

[963] And if you listen to this whole podcast and at the end of it, you still want to spend thousands and thousands of dollars on stem cells, then that's your prerogative.

[964] It's your prerogative to do what you want to do.

[965] But at least you'll be informed.

[966] And that's what I wanted people to be informed.

[967] After Dr. Death, I realized the size of the audience that something could reach, that an audio story like that could reach.

[968] I wanted to tell a story, another story that I thought could help people, and that I thought could inform people and empower people with the information.

[969] And I realized after Dr. Death, the reach of that, because there's been great print reporting on the unapproved stem cell industry, and there have been some really good stories about it.

[970] But a podcast, I thought, could reach a lot bigger audience and a lot different audience.

[971] And if I just had a narrative vehicle, come for the story, stay for the information, stay for there.

[972] You're looking for a great delivery device for your information.

[973] Right.

[974] And so when that.

[975] this incident happened in Texas with the bad stem cells, I thought, you know, looking into what happened and why it happened and what this says about the stem cell industry could really help a lot of people.

[976] What was the total impact of just that Texas clinic?

[977] There were only a handful of patients in Texas, but the bad batch of stem cells went nationwide.

[978] I don't think we're clear exactly how many people were infected because it turns out that there had been some incidents of infection before that that were kind of under the radar.

[979] So one of the extraordinary things that happened with the case in Texas without giving too much away is there may have been here and there, you know, some infections happening, but nobody connected the dots.

[980] But suddenly on this one day in September, you had three people from the same clinic in the same hospital on the same day and that is what drew attention to the fact that that was a larger problem and if that hadn't happened yeah don't you think so many of these stories that get uncovered yeah had that been spaced out by even three weeks no one would have connected the dots no there's probably tons of things like that and who knows how long it would have gone on you know they all happen to read the same column in the local newspaper uh -huh touting the stem cells right Yeah.

[981] Isn't that where we got to be careful, especially like medical journalism?

[982] Like, I think about it even when there's been a couple great podcasts on CRISPR.

[983] It's an incredibly enticing, exotic idea, editing genes and the future of that.

[984] But don't people have to be cautious when they're reporting on this stuff to keep driving home how far out that is?

[985] As we've moved away from the print journalism and into online journalism, which is driven by clicks, I feel like the headline has gotten more and more and more provocative or more and more promising, whether it's overly optimistic or overly pessimistic.

[986] Like the gray area is not, doesn't seem as clickable.

[987] So I've found a lot of times the sensational headline and the whatever, you know, that's coming a lot of times from people who don't do it all the time.

[988] Right.

[989] Often, the person who wrote the story doesn't write the headline.

[990] Oh, that's true.

[991] Because I'll see someone will forward me something that I, or something about my wife and and I'll think, how the fuck are they putting that in a headline?

[992] We didn't say that.

[993] And I go to the article.

[994] And it is just the normal article we cooperated in and did an interview.

[995] And that's not even said inside the article.

[996] This was like an extrapolation that someone wrote this headline.

[997] Oh, yeah.

[998] When I was working at the newspaper, you never write your own headlines.

[999] Right.

[1000] So, yeah, that's troubling.

[1001] Yeah.

[1002] You don't write your own headlines.

[1003] And, you know, sometimes you can see them ahead of time.

[1004] Sometimes you don't.

[1005] Magazines is different because you'll see a galley of the headlines.

[1006] and there have been instances where I'll say, hey.

[1007] That's too misleading, right?

[1008] Yeah, I don't like that headline.

[1009] And you don't have final say, but you have a lot of influence, obviously.

[1010] Stay tuned for more armchair experts, if you dare.

[1011] One of the big dangers I seek back to this kind of sensational medical journalism is, you know, the well -reported, well -done articles won't do that.

[1012] What I get most bothered by is the single study stories.

[1013] Like a study finds this.

[1014] And it's like one study.

[1015] And it makes it sound like this is the, this is great.

[1016] This is the breakthrough.

[1017] And then there's this magical headline put on the top of it.

[1018] And those are the ones that really bother me and that get people, I think a lot of false hope is, you know, the single study stories.

[1019] Right.

[1020] And, you know, science happens by study after study and building evidence and, you know, and some studies.

[1021] studies find this and some studies find the opposite and then you see like what's the compilation of the evidence looks like.

[1022] That's how science happened.

[1023] It doesn't happen with one study that determines everything.

[1024] Right.

[1025] With the exception, though, some of these epidemiological studies that happen like in Denmark where they actually have public records for everyone's health.

[1026] Oh, yeah.

[1027] Those are like.

[1028] And that's right, because they have huge amounts of data.

[1029] Yeah, they have like three million people.

[1030] They see which ones had vaccines, which ones didn't.

[1031] What's the rate of autism?

[1032] Oh, there's no difference.

[1033] That's over.

[1034] We're done with that conversation.

[1035] Yeah.

[1036] And right.

[1037] And the Scandinavians have great data a lot of times because they do have this national registry and they can do these big studies.

[1038] I think it's preposterous.

[1039] We don't have that here.

[1040] I know we're very worried about our privacy, but it can be done without you being even linked to a name.

[1041] Just all that should be, you know, especially with the computing power that is available nowadays.

[1042] If all that data on all of us, you'd be able to connect all these dots.

[1043] Yeah, for a lot of things.

[1044] I mean, some studies you have to like do clinical trials and you can't you know but the epidemiologic studies are fascinating are fascinating and we get a lot of good information I mean remember there's all different kinds of studies yes out there yeah and good science happens with different kinds of studies right done and so I think that's the issue with stem cells is you know I've been to these seminars I went to several seminars doing this podcast and at some of them they would hand out the you know the quote scientific papers and there would be maybe two papers and you know one of them is on animals and one of them involves 12 people right right but it looks great yeah now give your most generous assessment of what stem cells could be what they could be or what we know now no I'm first I'm going to yes I'm going to ask for your most generous what they could be so we can first look at the promise.

[1045] Okay.

[1046] And then we'll look at the reality.

[1047] That's a good question.

[1048] So the promise is that you could take these cells, cord blood or your bone marrow, your adipose tissue.

[1049] There's lots of different kinds of stem cells and they do different things in the body.

[1050] And so the idea is you could take these cells and you could use them to renew parts of your body that need renewing.

[1051] because some of the worst forms of human disease happens because your tissues die, they degenerate, you know.

[1052] And a big one is cartilage.

[1053] Cartilage, okay.

[1054] So cartilage, when you're young, your cartilage can repair itself pretty well.

[1055] You know, how many kids, like they, you know, fall, they, you know, whatever, they fall off their bike and they can, you know, if you had that same accident now, your body could not repair itself as much as your kids could.

[1056] But so the promise of stem cells is you could take.

[1057] these cells and you could give them and you could rejuvenate these tissues like with cartilage which is one of the more probably one of the most advertised uses you get it in your knee or in your hip or in your rotator cuff and you could give the theory is that you give these cells and then you regrow your cartilage because they're you know brand new cells in theory but it hasn't borne itself out yeah i had it in my wrist i have psoriotic arthritis i had endless wrist joint swelling.

[1058] And I thought, I'm going to try everything out there.

[1059] So I did something called PRP where they spin your blood into platelets and they intensify it and re -inject it.

[1060] And then when that happened, they also put stem cells in.

[1061] In my case, maybe I'm an anomaly.

[1062] Nothing happened.

[1063] I didn't feel any better.

[1064] I tried it.

[1065] Okay.

[1066] I tried that.

[1067] That doesn't work.

[1068] Ultimately, I got surgery.

[1069] But that was my experience with him.

[1070] So that's a good example.

[1071] Because if those stem cells had been approved you know your doctor would have able to say would have had data and been able to say well okay you know dax this has a whatever percent chance here's the track record of it here's the kind of patient that it works best in here's the best way to deliver it you know we would know all of these things rather than just oh well we'll give it a shot right and that's what has not happened yet in stem cells even when they were doing it it felt like By the way, I was at best 30 % optimistic.

[1072] When it was happening, I was like, this is so willy -nilly.

[1073] They have these stem cells and they're going to, they're going to inject it directly into my joint.

[1074] I don't know that there's any science that says those are going to stay right there or not just get flushed right out.

[1075] I could just feel that this was like, why not try this?

[1076] Right.

[1077] And unfortunately, so you're talking about for your wrist, but for some of these terrible diseases, if you think there's a chance it'll work and you got nothing.

[1078] else.

[1079] You will pay your life savings for this chance.

[1080] But we don't know, you know, until we do the studies, we don't know.

[1081] And we don't even know, like, how safe it is.

[1082] Like, I've had the argument made to me, well, bad effects.

[1083] They're rare.

[1084] Like, we hardly hear about them.

[1085] We hardly hear about them.

[1086] And that's true.

[1087] But who's looking?

[1088] Like, we're not keeping track of it.

[1089] Like, I'm going to guess that your stem cells, you were not part of some study.

[1090] Nobody's looking at it that you're not going into data somewhere um i probably wasn't even using my real name and so we're not keeping track of it so if we're not it's yeah the side effects have been rare from this but we're not looking either and we do the studies to figure out like who's done it and and so you don't actually know the safety of it and one of the the episode that came out this week.

[1091] I talked to one stem cell expert, Sean Morrison, he's former president of the big international stem cell research society.

[1092] And he does a great job of laying this out.

[1093] Like the whole, the medical literature is full of things that we thought they would work.

[1094] And until we did the studies, we didn't know.

[1095] And a great example of that is vitamin E for cancer prevention.

[1096] So vitamin E was thought to be, you know, it's antioxidant.

[1097] It's going to prevent cancer.

[1098] And it just seemed like common sense.

[1099] Right.

[1100] That it was going to work.

[1101] and then we did the study and we did this giant study for prostate cancer and it turned out that not only did it not work but the people who got the vitamin E were at higher risk of prostate cancer so until you do the studies yeah you don't know so can I ask what loophole exists that you would not be able to bring a drug to market is it because it's entirely organic and it's not designed in a laboratory that it's not under the purview of the FDA so that There's a couple of loopholes.

[1102] One, so stem cells that are coming from your own tissues.

[1103] Like, did you have stem cells that were from umbilical or birth products or were they your own bone marrow?

[1104] I believe birth products.

[1105] Okay, right.

[1106] So.

[1107] Don't even know.

[1108] No, I remember them.

[1109] Okay, did they take a big bone marrow aspect?

[1110] No, no, no. You'd remember that.

[1111] Literally, they drew my blood for the PRP, right?

[1112] And then the guy said, oh, by the way, we have these stem.

[1113] Yeah, because we have these stem cells.

[1114] and they're the ones you want, they're like, you know, some, yeah, they're natal, some kind of baby, yeah, okay, right, ew.

[1115] They're from here and we have them and let's try them.

[1116] And I was like, yeah, absolutely, let's do whatever.

[1117] Right, okay.

[1118] So that's a different loophole.

[1119] Okay.

[1120] So, so I'll get to that.

[1121] So the FDA's rule that if they come from your own body, if you take your bone marrow, dem cells or stem cells from your fat, that's considered what's called homologous use.

[1122] So it's still within your own body.

[1123] body.

[1124] Yeah.

[1125] And so you can move, and you can move your own cells around.

[1126] Yeah.

[1127] If someone wants to move their thigh bone to their forehead, I don't know why we should stop them.

[1128] That's kind of the equivalent of a skin graft.

[1129] You're just moving your own cells.

[1130] So that's the loophole.

[1131] Or liposuction then into the butt.

[1132] You heard about this?

[1133] Oh, yes.

[1134] Yes.

[1135] This is phenomenal.

[1136] Yeah.

[1137] I have.

[1138] And so right.

[1139] So that's not a drug.

[1140] That's just migration of your body.

[1141] Then there's these birth products like you had.

[1142] And they come sometimes from cord blood.

[1143] blood, sometimes from amniotic tissue.

[1144] These are cells that are made during development.

[1145] So after baby's born, they take these cells.

[1146] So that's a different loophole.

[1147] And to be honest, that's a loophole I'm still not clear on.

[1148] Is how...

[1149] I think it's the vampire loophole.

[1150] Yeah, like, what is the...

[1151] Why is that okay to do?

[1152] So in the last episode of the podcast, I actually had an opportunity to ask the guy at the FDA who's in charge of it.

[1153] Like, how is this not a drug?

[1154] Because that's not your own use.

[1155] And that's taking something from somebody else, from some unknown baby, and putting it into your body.

[1156] But what I said is, how are you allowing this?

[1157] And he said, it's not that we're allowing it.

[1158] It's that we're playing whackamol right now.

[1159] So the industry has grown so much, and they're under -resourced.

[1160] So they have to focus on those situations that are the most dangerous.

[1161] So people who are getting these stem cells injected into their eyes or into their brains or, you know, somewhere.

[1162] And so they've had to triage.

[1163] Yeah.

[1164] That makes sense.

[1165] This is kind of like what they do with like bath salts, the over -the -counter drug that was at gas stations.

[1166] They're in this arms race with these Chinese manufacturers that are making designer drugs that aren't schedule one or two drugs.

[1167] the compound is specific by the time the FDA or whoever does that ATF, they crack that compound to make it illegal.

[1168] They've already added one more hydrogen molecule to it.

[1169] Now they're selling it to something else and they just really can't keep up.

[1170] I think that's a lot of it.

[1171] And the FDA has said to these stem cell manufacturers and distributors, they put out some guidance and said, okay, here's what the law is.

[1172] And they've given people a certain period of time to come within compliance of the law.

[1173] And so theoretically, if you're still out of compliance by then, then, because I think a lot of these companies are just ignoring the regulations.

[1174] So back to your point about how this is being allowed.

[1175] I'm not entirely convinced that it is.

[1176] I just think that they're not coming down on it because they have to focus on the most dangerous aspects of it first.

[1177] But do patients know that?

[1178] Like, that's what it comes down to me. Is informed, like, are patients informed and do they know that this has not been tested?

[1179] And that's why I wanted to tell this story.

[1180] We ourselves have gotten stuck in this position a couple times where it's like we've had a doctor on.

[1181] Say the doctor was a cardiologist or they were a heart surgeon or they're a brain surgeon.

[1182] They're no longer doing that.

[1183] But now they have some products and they have a theory on what's causing autoimmune and now they're selling products.

[1184] And there's this real murky territory where it's like we have this relationship with doctors in our society where we know they take a Hippocratic Oath.

[1185] and they can't injure us.

[1186] And so there's this built -in societal trust of them.

[1187] And then it gets murky when they have products or they sell stuff.

[1188] We found ourselves like not knowing ethically, is this weird?

[1189] Does this person have more authority or do they perceive to have more authority?

[1190] Even though this wasn't their field, but they are a medical, you know, train.

[1191] This is kind of a problem, right, that we face.

[1192] So I think they do have a responsibility.

[1193] And I want to say that the doctor's selling this.

[1194] I don't believe that they're universally scam artist.

[1195] Like, there are probably doctors selling you these products, and they believe they actually work.

[1196] Right.

[1197] They're probably doctors who suspect that they don't work.

[1198] They're probably, you know, probably runs a gamut.

[1199] They're probably those who know, but, golly, I can make a lot of money on it.

[1200] And it's not going to hurt.

[1201] It's not going to hurt.

[1202] And there's the power of placebo.

[1203] That might work.

[1204] And the thing about the placebo effect is the more expensive the treatment is, the greater the placebo effect.

[1205] Oh, really?

[1206] Oh, yeah.

[1207] Yeah, there have been studies on this.

[1208] That makes sense.

[1209] If you perceive that the treatment is expensive, the placebo effect is greater.

[1210] Well, can I tell you that is entirely why I was willing to try stem cells?

[1211] I was like, oh, Kobe Bryant goes to Germany and gets stem cell.

[1212] And he's like, so that guy must have access to all the best shit.

[1213] And so if he's using it, like it all just rolls downhill where I start buying into it more because someone with all the means at their disposal is doing this, then that must be the thing.

[1214] Yeah.

[1215] And to your point about unproven therapy, so there's a lot out there.

[1216] There's a lot out there that people are spending money on.

[1217] And if they want to do that, that's fine.

[1218] It's their body, their money.

[1219] What makes stem cells different to me, one, is that you're not going to spend thousands and thousands of dollars and your life savings on vitamins.

[1220] You know, these are hugely expensive.

[1221] Right.

[1222] So a lot of these unproven treatments, yeah, they're not proven, they probably won't hurt you, and they're not that expensive.

[1223] But stem cells, people are taking out loans.

[1224] they're using their retirement money.

[1225] You know, this is money that people don't have.

[1226] Yeah.

[1227] And so that's one thing.

[1228] And the other thing is, people are getting this for very serious things.

[1229] They're paying for this to cure horrible diseases.

[1230] And that desperation is really playing into it.

[1231] That's what makes it different to me from other, like another unproven treatment.

[1232] It's that it's so expensive.

[1233] and people are so desperate for cures.

[1234] And back to my dad, my dad died of Parkinson's disease.

[1235] And that's something, there's no cure for Parkinson's disease.

[1236] Right.

[1237] And if you would have told me, you know, if I spent $20 ,000 on stem cells and it would have cured him, you know?

[1238] Yeah.

[1239] I mean, you would be tempted to do that.

[1240] And you have somebody telling you, oh, there's a really good chance.

[1241] And we have great luck with, you know, people with Parkinson's.

[1242] I mean, you could see.

[1243] If that was your chance, So that makes it different from other kind of unproven therapies.

[1244] So my experience, though, where I was a little put off by how the system works was my father died of small cell carcinoma.

[1245] It had spread everywhere, right?

[1246] And there was a point towards the very end.

[1247] Mind you, as soon as you get diagnosed with small cell that's metastasized and is everywhere, the window is literally three to six months.

[1248] That's that.

[1249] There's no, you know, this is known.

[1250] None of them will even tell.

[1251] you there's hope, which I appreciate ultimately.

[1252] And right towards the end, one of the oncologist comes in and says, you know, he's got really bad brain cancer.

[1253] I'd like to start radiation.

[1254] And I said, well, he's going to die in a couple months.

[1255] Is it better that he die of some cancer, some other organ failing than his brain?

[1256] And he's like, well, yeah, I think it's a little worst for that to be the organ that goes.

[1257] And I was like, no, this is stupid.

[1258] And then my dad wanted to, and ultimately it was his experience.

[1259] And so I was like, okay, he did it.

[1260] You know, he was alive for another three weeks.

[1261] It was very regrettable, in my opinion.

[1262] And then three months later, I'm watching 60 Minutes.

[1263] And it talks about that many oncologists actually sell the treatment.

[1264] And I was like, oh my God, that was a fucking scam.

[1265] I mean, at least minimally, this person was heavily incentivized to sell this treatment.

[1266] I feel like there should be a barrier within medicine that that's not the case.

[1267] Yeah, money distorts the system and not for every doctor or every hospital, but it does distort the decision -making process.

[1268] Back to Dr. Death, he was a neurosurgeon.

[1269] Do you think hospitals would have been ready to take a chance on him, even with the red flags, if he'd have been a pediatrician?

[1270] I mean, it was the money.

[1271] It was like neurosurgeons bring in a lot of money.

[1272] And that's why these institutions, were willing to take a chance on a neurosurgeon, even if they suspected that he shouldn't have been operating.

[1273] When you mix money, and I'm not saying that, you know, we all need socialized medicine.

[1274] We have chosen in this country to make our health care system a for -profit business.

[1275] Right.

[1276] And that's what we have.

[1277] Yep.

[1278] So we have to be prepared, okay, medicine is a business.

[1279] And if we're going to treat it as a business, that means it's going to make money.

[1280] And that means there are decisions that are going to be made based on money.

[1281] money.

[1282] And so it has advantages, it has disadvantages, and I'm not a health policy expert.

[1283] Right.

[1284] But we certainly need to monitor the disadvantages.

[1285] And stem cells make a lot of money.

[1286] And one thing that this podcast does that I was able to do, which really had not been done before, everyone kind of suspects it's a pretty lucrative business and you know it's a pretty lucrative business.

[1287] We wouldn't have this huge explosion of clinics and doctors offering it if it were not a profitable business.

[1288] But I was really able to lay out exactly how much money is being made.

[1289] And I'm not going to tell you now because I want people to listen to the podcast and it'll give it away.

[1290] But there's a lot of markup is what you're saying.

[1291] Good margin, profit margin.

[1292] Yes.

[1293] Yeah.

[1294] One of the things that in the podcast that I got is a sales training call for this company.

[1295] Oh God.

[1296] Where they're exactly talking about the amount of money and you can do this and you can sell these for this and doctors can mark it up to this and they love it.

[1297] And so these numbers that I don't think people realize, I think they think, oh, it costs $5 ,000 a shot because it's cutting edge and it's so expensive.

[1298] Yeah.

[1299] Finite amount of umbilical fluid.

[1300] Yeah.

[1301] Wow.

[1302] Wow.

[1303] Wow.

[1304] Wow.

[1305] So bad batch.

[1306] Bad batch.

[1307] And it's on Wondry again.

[1308] It's Wendry again, but it's on any.

[1309] All the platforms.

[1310] All the platforms.

[1311] So Laura Beale.

[1312] Dr. Death, by far my favorite podcast of all time.

[1313] Thank you.

[1314] Bad Batch is out now, and I can't wait to consume it.

[1315] And I hope you do a thousand more of these because you're so good at it.

[1316] And I think you're also shining a light on something that will probably affect every single person in this country.

[1317] At some point, you will be in the medical system.

[1318] You will be dealing with this elaborate system that few of us understand.

[1319] So I think it's very helpful.

[1320] Either we're all patients at some point or someone we love as a patient.

[1321] Yeah.

[1322] I think that's why Dr. Death was so astounding to people to realize this is a system we depend on for our own protection and the protection of people we love and this happened.

[1323] Oh, that was one other thing.

[1324] That was one other thing really quick.

[1325] When we were all listening to Dr. Death at the same time we were talking about it a lot at parties, we were trying to isolate why the betrayal felt so.

[1326] And my suggestion was that humans in general have a very hard time being vulnerable.

[1327] It's very hard for us.

[1328] It's hard for us in relationships.

[1329] It's hard for us as parents, as children.

[1330] It's very hard to be vulnerable.

[1331] And there are these people in our society that we surrender the ultimate vulnerability to.

[1332] We say, go ahead, put us asleep and then make us better.

[1333] It's the ultimate display of vulnerability and trust.

[1334] And so when that is broken, it's just a little bit deeper.

[1335] It's much deeper than just having been murdered.

[1336] We were all like, this is somehow much more...

[1337] Because they told us that they're going to protect us and then they don't.

[1338] Yes.

[1339] That's, yeah.

[1340] There's like a double betrayal under it other than just...

[1341] And you feel overwhelmed, like with information.

[1342] Like, so one of the takeaways from Dr. Death might be, well, research your surgeon before you do it.

[1343] But how do you do that?

[1344] Yeah.

[1345] You can buy a new car and find out way more about that car than you can.

[1346] about your surgeon.

[1347] Yeah.

[1348] So I think it's a little, I mean, it's the only advice I tell people.

[1349] So, you know, research or surgeon get a second opinion.

[1350] But in some ways, I recognize that's still not a great option because it's hard to tell.

[1351] Yeah.

[1352] It's hard to tell.

[1353] Yeah.

[1354] Mm. All juicy.

[1355] Yeah.

[1356] Yeah.

[1357] All right.

[1358] Well, Laura, thank you so much for coming.

[1359] And I hope we talk to you again on your next one.

[1360] I enjoyed it.

[1361] And now my favorite part of the show is.

[1362] the fact check with my soulmate Monica Padman Take me down to the fact check city where the facts are clean and Monica is pretty Oh won't you please take me home?

[1363] Yeah, yeah Take me down to fact check city Where the facts are clean and Dax is witty Oh won't you please take me home?

[1364] Wow, I loved that.

[1365] That was a submission from Yedwards 07 on Instagram Edwards with a Yedward.

[1366] I should have warmed up my voice, but we got through it.

[1367] Anywho.

[1368] Loved it.

[1369] Happy Thanksgiving.

[1370] Happy Thanksgiving.

[1371] Happy Thanksgiving.

[1372] Happy Thanksgiving to you.

[1373] You're the best Thanksgiving that the world has ever known.

[1374] Happy Thanksgiving to you.

[1375] I don't think people know what that is based on.

[1376] It's the Happy Anniversary song from the Doll House, a movie.

[1377] It's many layers.

[1378] There is no official Thanksgiving.

[1379] song, is there?

[1380] There is not that I know of that's not racist.

[1381] Do you think there's some racist Thanksgiving song?

[1382] Probably.

[1383] Uh -huh.

[1384] What?

[1385] That was really funny.

[1386] Oh, boy.

[1387] Things are happening over now.

[1388] Lots of things are happening.

[1389] I was wondering this morning, you heard me clearing things out.

[1390] And I thought, at what point do you acknowledge you have some kind of respiratory condition and get some help yeah what percentage of my hacking do you think is oCD and what percentage is like medically necessary you must have some opinion i actually haven't thought that oh that's that's nice of you i'm sure it's some of it is oCD mm -hmm or habit yeah bad habit it's not bad well it is for the listeners in my life no no one cares no one cares i don't god i'm imagine it's so That's fine.

[1391] Both my grandparent, my male grandparents used to do that.

[1392] And I remember as a kid, listen to my Papa Bob in the back bedroom, just screaming, basically.

[1393] Yeah.

[1394] Clearing out is.

[1395] It is loud.

[1396] Why is it a grampy thing?

[1397] Don't you think it's more like the provenance of, province or provenance?

[1398] What word?

[1399] What word is right there?

[1400] Well, what's the sentence?

[1401] Coffing seems to be the province of grandpas.

[1402] Oh.

[1403] Or province.

[1404] Providence.

[1405] Domain.

[1406] Probably Providence.

[1407] I would not.

[1408] I would not choose to put that there, but yeah.

[1409] I hear it.

[1410] People use it.

[1411] You do?

[1412] Yeah, yeah.

[1413] Okay.

[1414] It's nice.

[1415] I think Providence, probably, because Providence is a area.

[1416] Yeah, it's probably Providence.

[1417] What is province?

[1418] A province is also an area, a province of Canada, you know?

[1419] That's not a Providence.

[1420] A province is like a state.

[1421] Okay.

[1422] A principal and minister.

[1423] Distrative division of certain countries or empires.

[1424] Is Providence or Providence?

[1425] Okay, now what is Providence?

[1426] Providence, the protective care of God or of nature as a spiritual power?

[1427] Hmm.

[1428] That's what it says.

[1429] Is there a sentence?

[1430] I live out my life as Providence decrees.

[1431] I was considered a duty to encourage Providence.

[1432] Oh, I don't think that's it then.

[1433] I think it's Providence.

[1434] There's preparation for the future good governance foresight.

[1435] also.

[1436] But that's not what you're talking about, right?

[1437] If coughing is the providence of grandpas.

[1438] Is that preparation for the future?

[1439] No, you're trying to say it's a Their domain.

[1440] Like, leave it to the grandpas.

[1441] That's their area.

[1442] Got it.

[1443] That's grandpa's territory, clearing his throat.

[1444] Yeah.

[1445] Hacking.

[1446] I think it's okay that you do it.

[1447] Thank you.

[1448] But if it's hurting you, you should go to the doctor.

[1449] Well, clearly it's got to be hard on everything in my lungs and stuff, right?

[1450] It's repetitive damage.

[1451] Scratchy.

[1452] Threatchy.

[1453] causes to a lot of repair of cells, which then causes cancer.

[1454] Oh, my God.

[1455] Well, anytime you have an area that's having to repair nonstop, that's when you're going to get these mutations after some cancer.

[1456] Now I'm nervous about you.

[1457] So I should go.

[1458] Yeah.

[1459] I'd love to get bionic lungs.

[1460] Wow.

[1461] Like self -rinsing.

[1462] Like at the end of the day, it just jets down the inside of your lungs.

[1463] And then you get a little capsule of de Briss that comes out your butt.

[1464] Yeah.

[1465] And just every morning you wake up with baby.

[1466] fresh lungs.

[1467] Doesn't that sound wonderful?

[1468] I mean, I think most people wake up and feel like their lungs are fresh, but not yours.

[1469] No, I feel like I've, um, I've like somehow inhaled a saran wrap and it's covering all the things that are supposed to be gathering oxygen, the cilia.

[1470] Yeah.

[1471] I feel like the cilia is covered.

[1472] Oh, yuck.

[1473] Yeah.

[1474] Laura Beal.

[1475] We love Dr. Death so much.

[1476] Yeah.

[1477] So, so much.

[1478] But she came all the from Tejas.

[1479] Yeah.

[1480] I like them Tejasians.

[1481] Yeah, me too.

[1482] She had a, there was something about her that reminded me of Bray Brown.

[1483] There's also a Tehaasian.

[1484] That's true.

[1485] Did you get that vibe?

[1486] I didn't.

[1487] A strength.

[1488] Yeah.

[1489] You're right.

[1490] Like a real unflappable strength.

[1491] Yeah, like they just aren't pushovers, which I like.

[1492] No, no. They have a clear focus.

[1493] Conviction.

[1494] Yes.

[1495] They're convicted felons.

[1496] But yeah, I really liked her.

[1497] And I thought she's just no shit.

[1498] You know what I'm saying?

[1499] That's how Bernay is too.

[1500] And she had Taco Bell with us.

[1501] Yes.

[1502] She caught us on one of our many cheats.

[1503] Yeah.

[1504] And she had one of mine, which I thought was really generous to me. Because you know how I get real greedy with my tacos.

[1505] Oh, yeah.

[1506] No matter how many I order, it's not enough.

[1507] Even though it is plenty.

[1508] Yes.

[1509] It's clearly plenty.

[1510] It's way more than enough.

[1511] That just happened at Jesse's birthday party at the Hansen's last Saturday.

[1512] someone had provided a big pyramid of crispy cream donuts at a friend's birthday party yeah as the treat instead of a cake i can resist cake yeah 90 % of the time i can resist a pie 98 % of the time okay that crispy cream donut that's got like the twinky filling inside oh that's your favorite i'm defenseless against it yeah and so once i fucking took one bite all of a sudden you wanted 50 well first of all i ate three and a half of them.

[1513] Oh, good job.

[1514] But while I was eating the first three, I was in a panic that they were going to run out.

[1515] Yeah.

[1516] I was like watching everyone grab for them and I was getting competitive and greedy.

[1517] I have that too.

[1518] Do you?

[1519] Yeah, of course.

[1520] Oh, good.

[1521] I thought it was just like, I'm just a terrible person.

[1522] No, I think, I think most people have that.

[1523] They do.

[1524] Yeah, it's like a scarcity mentality.

[1525] Yeah.

[1526] And I was, I was not good.

[1527] I almost wasn't even enjoying them.

[1528] I was just panicked about well, I get enough of them.

[1529] Just trying to get them so quick so you can get another one?

[1530] Yeah.

[1531] Well, something horrible happened with the donuts.

[1532] There was only one chocolate cake donut, which is my favorite.

[1533] That's your favorite.

[1534] Yeah.

[1535] That's counterintuitive from Krispy Kreme.

[1536] They're kind of known for that standard donut.

[1537] Well, it's my favorite donut.

[1538] Yeah, it's my favorite type of donut.

[1539] And there was only one of those.

[1540] So I took it quickly.

[1541] Uh -huh.

[1542] Good for you.

[1543] And then I felt guilty immediately.

[1544] So then I tore it in half and said, does anyone want this other half?

[1545] And someone immediately said yes they took it then i took a bite and then charlie said oh you got the chocolate one so then i had to give him so i had a quarter of that chocolate donut and we all agreed if anyone at the party had deserved the dark colored donut it was me it was clearly you i was holding down the diversity it was the token diversity girl yep that that brown donut belonged to you i know and everyone stole it for me just like pilgrims stole america from the native americans it all circles back to Thanksgiving.

[1546] Oopsie.

[1547] Way to bring it home.

[1548] Way to land the plane.

[1549] But of course, you needed the brown donut and I needed the one just injected with white.

[1550] It's actually counterintuitive because I normally gravitate towards the white thing.

[1551] Yeah, and I gravitate towards brown things.

[1552] Well, I would never, ever, ever have picked the one with Twinkie filling.

[1553] You don't like Twinkie filling?

[1554] I think I do, but I would never have picked it.

[1555] So this is what And I had a quarter of the chocolate and then I was like, well, I, this isn't enough.

[1556] So then I got the regular standard, which I also love.

[1557] But it's really good if you put it in the microwave for like eight seconds.

[1558] That was a Cameron's suggestion.

[1559] But it was already in my head.

[1560] And he said it and I was like, Cameron, everyone already knows that.

[1561] But apparently everyone didn't know it because they were acting shocked by that suggestion.

[1562] I regret not microwaving one of them.

[1563] You really should have.

[1564] They're unbelievable warm.

[1565] Well, it just is like when you get them hot.

[1566] Exactly.

[1567] Yeah.

[1568] Yeah.

[1569] I know a few different locations around the city.

[1570] And I would say the majority of time, at least 51 % of time, I pass them.

[1571] That sign's not on.

[1572] The light now.

[1573] Now there's a one on Crenshaw and I passed it, Monica, probably 50 times because we used to shoot on Parenthood at this hospital down there.

[1574] And I would take Crenshaw to work many, many mornings.

[1575] And then home.

[1576] I've never driven by it where the sign wasn't on.

[1577] And I would have to pull in all the time.

[1578] You would get them hot?

[1579] Oh, it's so hard to resist.

[1580] I can't drive by one of those.

[1581] If it says hot.

[1582] I think most people can't.

[1583] You know what?

[1584] They should just put that sign on.

[1585] Leave it on.

[1586] Yeah.

[1587] Because they're going to get so much more business.

[1588] I mean, they have so much integrity, those crispy creams.

[1589] What if hamburger chains did that?

[1590] Or it was like the hamburgers are hot now.

[1591] The hamburgers are hot right now.

[1592] Yeah.

[1593] Normally they're just room temp.

[1594] Well.

[1595] Yeah.

[1596] Speaking of hamburgers, another great Malcolm Gladwell episode of Revision and's History podcast is about McDonald's.

[1597] Oh, it is?

[1598] Yeah, and the French fries and how they had to change their recipe in the 90s, early, early 90s.

[1599] Because there was a guy, forget his name.

[1600] Okay.

[1601] Who, he had a really bad heart attack at a young age.

[1602] And he basically went on a crusade against lots of fats.

[1603] Oh, trans.

[1604] saturated fats.

[1605] And, you know, the fries used to have beef tallow.

[1606] They used to be made in beef tallow, fried in beef tallow.

[1607] And now they're not.

[1608] And then they do this experiment where they bring in these millennials and make them with the beef tallow.

[1609] And then they make them how they are made now with vegetable oil, I think.

[1610] Yeah.

[1611] And it's just like consensus.

[1612] It's just so much better tasting with the beef tallow.

[1613] Oh, it is.

[1614] I thought it was going to go the other way.

[1615] Like, oh, I thought it was.

[1616] going to be like proof that whatever you're raised on is the thing you like to me too but turns out no it's just objectively much much much better tasting fuck I wish I could get and I've never had one that's what he was saying he was like these millennials have never had the original recipe it's funny now that you say this because I thought I had this utopian view of my childhood but I do remember the fries tasting better yeah yeah yeah they actually were a different I think it changed in 1990.

[1617] Can't we open up a beef tallow French fry place?

[1618] No, it's really bad.

[1619] It's horrible for you.

[1620] Yeah, but it's just something he'd eat once a month.

[1621] Well, that's something he mentioned too.

[1622] He said originally there was like one size of fry and it was small.

[1623] Right.

[1624] Two point something ounces and now I'm getting these numbers wrong.

[1625] This I sound like you.

[1626] And now the large fry is like five ounces.

[1627] It's like double the amount that, you know, it's because they were so damn good.

[1628] People were like, make these.

[1629] bigger.

[1630] But no, now they're worse.

[1631] That was his point.

[1632] It used to be something, a reasonable portion that tasted good.

[1633] And now it's this insanely large, unreasonable amount, and it's not as good of a product.

[1634] Isn't that interesting?

[1635] It is.

[1636] Malcolm Gladwell's podcast is good.

[1637] It's better than ours.

[1638] It's the best podcast on.

[1639] Oh, speaking of that, it's coming full circle, logically irrational, then posted.

[1640] about us talking about them on their show.

[1641] Yeah, I was delighted to see that Instagram you forwarded me. Yes.

[1642] Where they've now heard us talk about them and we've heard them talk about us and where will it go?

[1643] To me, it's gaining momentum.

[1644] I can't wait to see where this leads.

[1645] It's a self -accelerating phenomenon.

[1646] It's flubber.

[1647] It is flubber.

[1648] It's gaining momentum despite resistance.

[1649] And let's just see where it goes.

[1650] Should we start playing like?

[1651] some kind of weird game where it's like we could um like we should start something and then they'll finish it on theirs almost like an improv like people who've never done improv there's a thing called like three word story oh that's a great idea like let's play it right now okay the farmer always oh i've not played that you have it no we play or we're in a big circle and then we go around we say one word yeah that's one word story oh so then there's three word story oh same thing yeah Yeah, so let's try it.

[1652] The farmer always.

[1653] Eight peanuts for his migraines, which were excruciatingly bad.

[1654] He called his mom yesterday and asked her to poop out a small pill that would.

[1655] Oh, that was four.

[1656] I lost.

[1657] I lost.

[1658] But I wonder if we could start a three -word story with them.

[1659] Let's do it.

[1660] So how about the three of us say a word to start the three -word story?

[1661] So our three words stories comprised of.

[1662] Three, six, nine.

[1663] Okay, so we'll each say three words.

[1664] Okay, you want to kick us off, Monica?

[1665] Okay.

[1666] Tomorrow in Yugoslavia.

[1667] The prince shall pick.

[1668] Oh, no. That was four again.

[1669] Jesus, man. I have five years improv training.

[1670] I can't count the four.

[1671] I'll start again.

[1672] Okay, I liked that, though.

[1673] Christmas Day ain't what it used.

[1674] to be because.

[1675] Okay.

[1676] Oh, great.

[1677] Christmas Day ain't what it used to be because.

[1678] All right.

[1679] So logically irrational.

[1680] I hope you're hearing this and you will give us six more words because there's two of them.

[1681] They might have an engineer or something we don't know about it.

[1682] Oh, that's true.

[1683] Mike him up or her up.

[1684] Okay.

[1685] And let's get nine words back.

[1686] Okay, great.

[1687] And then we'll publish this.

[1688] I'll call Random House, see if we can get in advance.

[1689] And then we'll donate all the money to my get deck.

[1690] A Ferrari fund.

[1691] No, I think we should donate it to the Rob and Monica House fund.

[1692] I like that better.

[1693] I guess you guys need homes more than I need a Ferrari.

[1694] You already have a Ferrari.

[1695] I have a model Ferrari of an FF that you got me for Christmas last year and I cherish it.

[1696] And then we went on vacation this year to Taranilla and there was an FF in the parking lot, remember?

[1697] Yeah.

[1698] And I got stiff as a board.

[1699] Light as a feather and stiff as a board.

[1700] Oh, wow.

[1701] Okay.

[1702] All right.

[1703] Laura.

[1704] Okay.

[1705] So the Max Planck Instinct.

[1706] Institute.

[1707] Is it part of Johannes Gutenberg University?

[1708] I don't think so.

[1709] The Max Planck Society for the Advancement of Science is a formally independent non -governmental and nonprofit association of German research institutes founded in 1911 as the Kaiser Wilhelm Society and renamed the Max Planck Society in 1948 in honor of its former president theoretical physicist Max Planck.

[1710] The society is funded by the federal and state governments of Germany.

[1711] The organization was established.

[1712] published in 1911 as the Kaiser Willem Society, a non -governmental research organization named for the then -German emperor.

[1713] The KWG was one of the world's leading research organizations.

[1714] Its board of directors included scientists like Walt Einstein.

[1715] Oh, Einstein.

[1716] Walt Einstein?

[1717] Yeah, so I don't see anything about Johannes Gutenberg University, but anyway, this is a very fancy place.

[1718] Okay, so I thought that her hometown city, the city of Marshall.

[1719] Yeah.

[1720] Where she's from.

[1721] Yeah, Marshall, Texas.

[1722] Yeah, I thought it was from the movie We Are Marshall and it's not.

[1723] Oh, it's not?

[1724] No. Is it about football?

[1725] Mm -hmm.

[1726] It's about in 1970, Marshall University in West Virginia when a plane crash claimed the lives of 75 of the school's football players, staff members, and boosters.

[1727] Ooh.

[1728] You know, it's funny.

[1729] I don't remember that being a part of the movie at all.

[1730] How do you make a movie about everyone passing in a tragedy?

[1731] Maybe the movie is about after.

[1732] I can't, I can't remember anything about it except Matthew McConaughey was in it.

[1733] So here's the thing.

[1734] We've got to pick up and carry on.

[1735] Oh, wow.

[1736] This is how we're going to honor them.

[1737] We're going to do our best.

[1738] We're going to win every football game.

[1739] And we are going to win because we are marshals.

[1740] No. That's not how it went.

[1741] We are marshal.

[1742] Boys and girls, boys and girls.

[1743] We will not be defeated by this.

[1744] We will persevere and we will win because we are a marshal.

[1745] Oh, my God.

[1746] I get it?

[1747] It's a good impression.

[1748] Sometimes it's better than others.

[1749] And I give it that one a six.

[1750] I was good.

[1751] I thought it was good.

[1752] That was a nice impression.

[1753] Thanks.

[1754] Can you be you again?

[1755] Okay.

[1756] Yeah.

[1757] Hi, Dad.

[1758] I'm back.

[1759] You're back.

[1760] Welcome back.

[1761] It's fun to be him for a minute.

[1762] Yeah.

[1763] He's so positive.

[1764] It's incredible.

[1765] He's such a zeal for life.

[1766] Sure.

[1767] Here's a guy who, he can party with the best of them and then wakes up at five in the morning and runs like 12 miles.

[1768] What an appetite for life.

[1769] Yeah.

[1770] Because I said, you have some constitution, huh?

[1771] And he said, some of my best workouts pushing through that wall, breaking through, that hangover.

[1772] Oh, wow.

[1773] Just exploding.

[1774] Oh, exploding.

[1775] Well, I don't know if he said exploding.

[1776] Yeah, you added, you paraphrase.

[1777] By the way, what if your mid workout and exploded in your slacks?

[1778] Ew.

[1779] I mean, I bet it happens.

[1780] I bet it happens to people.

[1781] Yeah, because they're so excited.

[1782] Well, you and I have seen, we've shared photos back and forth of athletes with erections while they're performing.

[1783] Sure.

[1784] It's not, I don't want to say it's common, but it happens enough that there's photos of it.

[1785] I think because blood flow.

[1786] It's just a blood flow issue.

[1787] That's Nate's theory.

[1788] It's like you just turn on all the floodgates to engorge your quadriceps and stuff.

[1789] Yeah, all your muscles.

[1790] You're just draining the upper half of your body, sending all.

[1791] the blood down there.

[1792] And then that penis gets caught up in the title wave.

[1793] I think that's what is happening.

[1794] Yeah.

[1795] I thought it was more like an emotional thing.

[1796] Like you're fucking finally doing it.

[1797] You've been training your whole life and you're about to cross the finish line and you're in first and your dick just gets hard from the excitement.

[1798] No, I don't think so.

[1799] Because it's not, it's not sexual.

[1800] I know.

[1801] I've told you my story about getting the moped when I was a kid.

[1802] Do you remember this story?

[1803] Yeah.

[1804] Visiting my dad's for the weekend and he said, hey, if you clean the garage, I'll take you to Anderson's Honda and we can look at sprees.

[1805] And I was like, oh yeah.

[1806] I mean, it would have been just enough for me to look at them that I was willing to clean the garage.

[1807] So I went out there to start cleaning the garage and the fucking spree was sitting there.

[1808] I love that story.

[1809] Me too.

[1810] It was such a sweet thing.

[1811] Such a sweet thing.

[1812] And I hopped on it immediately and I just started riding around the neighborhood and I did not stop riding until I ran out of tank of gas.

[1813] And I was fully engorged the whole ride.

[1814] I had a I had a screaming boner and I was.

[1815] was 12.

[1816] And it wasn't horny.

[1817] But maybe you were.

[1818] Maybe the seat was rubbing up against your penis and causing it to get a wrecked.

[1819] No, I had just coveted this mobility for so long and I was experiencing it.

[1820] And I don't think my body knew how to let out the joy.

[1821] Like, smiling ear to ear was not enough.

[1822] But maybe in that case, it's also like the athletes, though, because like you are exerting a lot of energy riding that thing.

[1823] Not a lot.

[1824] No, just my wrist.

[1825] But your wrists were working hard.

[1826] Not as hard as my penis was To stay erect for an hour and a half Wow For an hour and a half I remember the whole time riding it Like deep pressure in my jeans Like a little uncomf But like I'm not stopping Because I'm enjoying the motorcycle so much And again I didn't I didn't climax I thought I was gonna ask No no again it was not sexual at all It went away as soon as you hopped off the thing I hope so because my dad would have probably seen the bolt Although what could be better for a father than he buys his son something son uses it, he's fully erect.

[1827] You're like, well, that was a great present.

[1828] I just think that it was about the seat more than anything.

[1829] I know.

[1830] You never felt a seat on your penis like that before.

[1831] Well, no, I had written stuff.

[1832] It wasn't, it wasn't any, it didn't emanate from my crotch.

[1833] It's, it's emanated from my brain.

[1834] How do you really know if you know the difference?

[1835] I do.

[1836] I do.

[1837] You could get erect just from.

[1838] Physical stimulation.

[1839] Yeah, physical stimulation.

[1840] No attraction.

[1841] Correct.

[1842] So that's probably what happened.

[1843] I know.

[1844] But I really remember the feeling, Monica, and it wasn't sexual.

[1845] I did not want to orgasm.

[1846] I know.

[1847] It was cumbersome, and I didn't even want that aspect of the joyride.

[1848] Joyride.

[1849] Maybe that's where the term joyride comes from.

[1850] Maybe.

[1851] I don't think so.

[1852] The invention of the Honda Sprie in the 80s.

[1853] So, is there a name for hypochondria medical student syndrome?

[1854] It's called Medical Students Disease, also known as second year syndrome or intern syndrome, a condition frequently reported in medical students who perceive themselves to be experiencing the symptoms of a disease that they are studying.

[1855] I would just, I would have that so bad.

[1856] You wouldn't make it through.

[1857] You would not make it through.

[1858] We're the same level.

[1859] A hypochondria.

[1860] You said she has a 15 ,000 chance higher of dying in a car accident than having a stroke.

[1861] Okay, these are the stats I found.

[1862] Okay, hold on.

[1863] I'm going to get my calculator ready.

[1864] You're going to need to do some math, okay?

[1865] And I'm afraid it's going to be too big for my fast.

[1866] math scales.

[1867] So I'm going to get prepared with the calculator.

[1868] Okay.

[1869] So the chance of dying a car crash, one in 77.

[1870] Oh, I wish it was just a number.

[1871] I know.

[1872] Trust me. Me too.

[1873] Okay.

[1874] One in 77.

[1875] Okay.

[1876] Stroke is the third leading cause of death in the United States.

[1877] More than 140 ,000 people die each year from stroke in the United States.

[1878] So do you, oh God, these are apples and oranges.

[1879] I know exactly.

[1880] So I'm going to start with what?

[1881] So make percentages.

[1882] I'm going to.

[1883] Okay.

[1884] I'm going to.

[1885] I'm going to.

[1886] So, okay, so 140 ,000 divided by, let's call it, 350 million Americans, 300.

[1887] Wow, that's so big.

[1888] That is point zero zero four.

[1889] Point zero zero.

[1890] So 10 ,000 million, four millionths of a percent.

[1891] But when you move it over.

[1892] percentage you'd move over.

[1893] Yes.

[1894] So, yes, yes, yes.

[1895] So 400th of a percent chance.

[1896] I did 0 .037 when I did it.

[1897] So 400th of a percent.

[1898] And one in 77.

[1899] Yeah.

[1900] Is that's point oh one two.

[1901] So so thousands, thousands more.

[1902] Lots more.

[1903] Yeah.

[1904] Yes.

[1905] You're more likely to die in a car accident, which is what you said.

[1906] Yeah.

[1907] Okay.

[1908] Yeah.

[1909] Okay.

[1910] Great.

[1911] We think.

[1912] But you said 15 ,000 chance.

[1913] And we just.

[1914] That was made up.

[1915] This math exceeded our skill level.

[1916] You know what else could be tricky?

[1917] I just got to, because someone that's probably screaming at their dashboard right now.

[1918] Okay.

[1919] I also just complicated things by the one in 77 figure might be over your lifetime.

[1920] And I just did in one year.

[1921] That's true.

[1922] So you could potentially multiply that number by 80 years and fuck it all up even more.

[1923] So we did a bad job.

[1924] It's very hard to do that comparison.

[1925] We're going to have to get some different data points.

[1926] You know what?

[1927] So you know what?

[1928] I think you just probably shouldn't make that comparison.

[1929] I won't.

[1930] Okay.

[1931] How many instances of malpractice in criminal court?

[1932] So here I have six.

[1933] Oh, really?

[1934] Uh -huh.

[1935] One of them is Christopher Dunch.

[1936] Dr. Conrad Murray, the physician who was caring for Michael Jackson.

[1937] Mm -hmm.

[1938] He faced criminal charges.

[1939] The orthopedic surgeon charged with murder of striker sales rep in South Carolina, South Carolina -based orthopedic surgeon, Adam Lazarini, has been charged with involuntary manslaughter and obstructing justice after a cross -link orthopedic striker sales representative died of a gunshot wound.

[1940] Oh, okay.

[1941] So he just murdered somebody.

[1942] Okay, that's a little different.

[1943] And so is.

[1944] But he's technically a surgeon.

[1945] Okay.

[1946] And so is Mike Jackson's doctor because it wasn't in an operating room.

[1947] I think the specific claim in Dr. John was the first person to face criminal charges for something that happened.

[1948] happened in the operating room.

[1949] So so far, those two don't qualify for that.

[1950] But I think Michael Jackson was still technically malpractice.

[1951] Oh, a thousand percent.

[1952] Yeah.

[1953] Yeah, yeah.

[1954] It's just not in the, he wasn't in an OR.

[1955] Yeah, but that's so specific.

[1956] That to me is similar.

[1957] It's so medical related.

[1958] Like, yeah.

[1959] He was in charge of that person and then, but this murder one is a little different.

[1960] Yeah.

[1961] Okay.

[1962] Former MSU.

[1963] Dean, Dr. William Strampold charged with criminal sexual conduct.

[1964] Oh, Oh, that was for the Olympian.

[1965] No, Larry Nassar.

[1966] Larry Nassar also is on this list, obviously.

[1967] Okay.

[1968] Oh, this William Stranple, former East Lansing -based Michigan State University dean, and Larry Nassar's boss.

[1969] This was Larry Nassar's boss, was arrested in charge with criminal sexual conduct, two counts of willful neglect of duty.

[1970] There we go.

[1971] Yep, there it is.

[1972] Dr. Gregory Belcher's sentenced to 12 -month prison term for health care fraud.

[1973] Saratoga, California -based orthopedic surgeon Gregory Belcher, MD, was sentenced to 12 months and a day in prison for making a false statement to a health care benefit program.

[1974] Dr. Belcher was sentenced after an eight -week trial in which he and his wife, an office partner, the Lassani Ganesh, that's an Indian person, were convicted of health care fraud.

[1975] Dr. Belcher submitted a false billing claim related to the physical therapy practice.

[1976] conducted from the Saratoga offices of the Campbell Medical Group.

[1977] Okay.

[1978] Okay, Christopher Dunge, sentenced to life in prison for injuring his patients.

[1979] Spine surgeon, Dr. Johnny Benjamin found guilty faces possibility of life in prison.

[1980] A jury found Vero Beach, Florida spine surgeon, Johnny Benjamin.

[1981] What a name.

[1982] A two nicknames.

[1983] Yeah.

[1984] Well, Benjamin's not a nickname.

[1985] That's true.

[1986] One nickname, one real first name.

[1987] Johnny Benjie.

[1988] Johnny Benjamin or Jonathan Benjee.

[1989] Okay.

[1990] MD, guilty of five accounts of felony.

[1991] Dr. Benjamin was charged with illegal drug distribution.

[1992] Investigators also charged a surgeon with providing a painkiller laced with fentanyl and caused the death of a woman in 2016.

[1993] The jury reached a verdict after the week -long trial.

[1994] Dr. Benjamin will remain in federal custody until his July 6 sentencing hearing.

[1995] He faces a possibility of life in prison.

[1996] So only one that in an operating room.

[1997] Because the thing, the reason I would imagine it's so hard to convict somebody, if someone's undergoing an operation, there's a likelihood that they're going to die.

[1998] You know, there's some percentage.

[1999] It varies, you know, when we have the brain surgeon on.

[2000] I was like, quite often he's dealing with somebody that's got a 10 % chance of living without this procedure.

[2001] Right.

[2002] There's a high fatality rate.

[2003] So to try someone for murder when they've just something predictable happened, just doesn't happen.

[2004] Yeah.

[2005] Yeah, it's rare.

[2006] Except for in this dunch.

[2007] Yeah.

[2008] It's crazy.

[2009] It's so funny, if I had to sum up a single, like if I had to use a single word to describe the dunch case, what would your word be?

[2010] I have a specific word.

[2011] If I just, the whole thing had to be summed up in one word.

[2012] Arrogance.

[2013] That's my word.

[2014] Arrogance.

[2015] To me, it's a story of arrogance.

[2016] Yep.

[2017] I'm guilty of arrogance from time to time.

[2018] It's one of my character defects.

[2019] We all have them.

[2020] Yeah, but not everyone has arrogance.

[2021] Not everyone has arrogance.

[2022] It's gross.

[2023] Arrogance is one of the grosser ones to have.

[2024] Do you think you always had it?

[2025] Like when you were younger?

[2026] No, I think I, well, I like to think, or maybe it's just an excuse.

[2027] I like to think it was born out of being dyslexic and feeling stupid.

[2028] Oh.

[2029] Like that I was overcompensating so much.

[2030] I just became a no -it -old.

[2031] all.

[2032] Oh, I see.

[2033] Yeah.

[2034] But so you do think you had it before you were successful in acting.

[2035] Oh, yeah.

[2036] I don't think it's all.

[2037] No. It's not connected to success.

[2038] I often, you know, I'll tell you this, like when I go to bed at night, I have, I have these flashes of embarrassing moments over my life.

[2039] Uh -huh.

[2040] And there's a bunch of them.

[2041] One of them that always comes up, and I don't know why.

[2042] My mother picked me up from school.

[2043] I was like in first grade or second grade.

[2044] I think you've already told you this.

[2045] I don't remember this.

[2046] She picked me up in her Chivette, her Chevy Chivette.

[2047] And then I chose to ride home from school on the floor of the front seat.

[2048] Like I wasn't sitting in the seat.

[2049] I was like sitting on the floor.

[2050] And I was acting really cool.

[2051] Like she was asking me like what was happening, like how my day was and whatnot.

[2052] And I was just acting super over it.

[2053] And like I don't even care anymore.

[2054] Yeah.

[2055] I can really remember trying on this this cool guy thing.

[2056] And I think about it all the time.

[2057] I always think about how embarrassing that is.

[2058] It's so funny that you think about it.

[2059] Your mom's response must have been strong enough.

[2060] you remembered it.

[2061] I don't think it's just the feeling.

[2062] You must have felt some shame from it, which is good.

[2063] Which is good.

[2064] I'm glad she shamed me. That's why sometimes.

[2065] I know.

[2066] I'm just like, you got.

[2067] Sometimes I think shame is really important.

[2068] And then another one I remember, oh my God.

[2069] I was arguing with this guy in my college years because I had just had a Western Siv class.

[2070] Okay.

[2071] This guy was explaining to me how like history is not real.

[2072] white people have written it and blah blah blah blah blah and then was he white no he was black okay and i was like well you can't call the egyptians white they were not white and they started recording history in 2660 bc my tactic was like when were the pyramids built i'm getting red just thinking about this fact what you were asking yeah i was like oh you know you know history's fake so when were the pyramids built so when were the pyramids built I mean, no one knows they're built in 2660 BC.

[2073] I happened to know it because I just took that class.

[2074] And for whatever reason, that number has stuck in my head forever.

[2075] Wow, you were like quizzing them.

[2076] Yes, and it was because I knew that number.

[2077] I was winning this argument.

[2078] Oh, my God.

[2079] I was also drunk.

[2080] Oh, I had that.

[2081] At school?

[2082] No, no, no, no. This was at a party at Aaron's house.

[2083] Yeah, yeah.

[2084] This was in the Detroit flat.

[2085] And I don't even say the guy's name, but I remember exactly who I was arguing with.

[2086] Oh, wow.

[2087] Look, I don't think he was right, but I certainly, my side of it was like such arrogant like yeah well you don't know anything you don't even know when the pyramids were built how can you be telling you that seems to actually totally irrelevant also to the point either of you were but the white people did not record that that that part is true you know egyptians recorded their history mesopotamians recorded their history none of those people are white right you probably meant our current version of history sure like uh like who's writing the textbooks yeah and colonial history is definitely from the perspective of of the colonists.

[2088] But anyways, yeah, I thought I was like, I had the checkmate point.

[2089] Anyways, I think about that, probably once a month going to bed.

[2090] I'm embarrassed about my behavior in that argument.

[2091] Yeah.

[2092] Oh, God.

[2093] Well.

[2094] Another one.

[2095] You want to hear another really embarrassing thing?

[2096] Oh, my God.

[2097] This one's so rough.

[2098] Because, you know, Aaron and I, Aaron Weekly, my best friend, it's rare that he's going to hold my feet to the fire because we're in it together.

[2099] I've watched him make a bunch of mistakes and I just stand by him with loyalty and vice versa.

[2100] And one time he and my brother and I were in Pebble Beach doing a car show for GM that was at the golf course.

[2101] And I got really drunk on red wine.

[2102] I was hammered on red wine.

[2103] And I didn't drink red wine.

[2104] That wasn't my drink.

[2105] Yeah, it doesn't seem like.

[2106] And I got into a fucking argument with my brother.

[2107] I was so mean to my brother.

[2108] I was so regretful.

[2109] I was so embarrassed the next day.

[2110] But amid all this hostility towards my brother, I kept asking him what he thought this starting GPA was for a freshman at UCLA.

[2111] Oh, my God.

[2112] Oh, so embarrassed.

[2113] This is so embarrassing.

[2114] And the next day, Aaron kept saying to me, do you know what the starting GPA is?

[2115] And he would say the four point.

[2116] He was making fun of me so bad.

[2117] I'm so glad he did.

[2118] It's shameful.

[2119] I'm so embarrassed.

[2120] I was like, bread.

[2121] You apologized to your brother, I'm sure.

[2122] I think I did.

[2123] And I just spent the whole day trying to win him back over in the way that only a little brother knows how to do.

[2124] I'm putting on like the best show I could that day as we were driving down 17 mile road.

[2125] Sure.

[2126] I bet he doesn't remember any of this, but I remember every D -D judge.

[2127] I'm sure.

[2128] I was ashamed.

[2129] Yeah.

[2130] Okay, this is very interesting.

[2131] I'm so grateful Aaron called you out on that.

[2132] Yes.

[2133] In friendships, do you like that people call you out or are you like that people are loyal and keep their mouth quiet?

[2134] Well, currently I love friends that point out stuff.

[2135] And that's virtually what AA is.

[2136] But when I was younger and, yeah, wrestling some addictions and a lot of my behavior was shameful.

[2137] Yeah.

[2138] I think I needed a lot of forgiveness or tolerance for my imperfections because it was just overwhelming.

[2139] But Aaron had that perfect level, right, where he wasn't like piling onto me feeling guilty.

[2140] By the way, I didn't need any help with people making me feel guilty.

[2141] I knew when I fucked up.

[2142] I, in the morning, woke up and replayed every conversation.

[2143] Right.

[2144] I was aware of it.

[2145] I didn't need anyone to pile on it.

[2146] Right.

[2147] But Aaron was good at the times where I actually wasn't feeling guilty or I had a blind spot to it.

[2148] Right, right, right.

[2149] Because I know, like, part of your whole thing is the way you used to show love with all your friends is like, I'm going to just be loyal to the endth degree and just jump in no matter what.

[2150] and so I assume that that's what you like but well it's not even that it's that we had a shared level of ethics right so it's like in our group this is terrible but this is the truth in the mid 90s yeah for us drinking and driving wasn't something we would shame each other over right it's like we all did that right um getting a fight wasn't something we'd shame each other yeah there was just all these things that we had a shared yeah ethics because we were you know know, scumbags on some level.

[2151] No, you were just, it was what you were used to.

[2152] It's whatever.

[2153] It's what we did.

[2154] Yeah.

[2155] Yeah.

[2156] But then, even within that, you could step beyond that.

[2157] Right, right, right.

[2158] I did several times.

[2159] And Aaron, always when I left our ethics would point it out.

[2160] Right.

[2161] And Scotty Johnson was really helpful, too.

[2162] Scotty Johnson is really the reason I quit drinking the very first time is that I went to his house on a Sunday night for a poker game and I drank the half gallon of Jack Daniels.

[2163] And apparently I was belligerent and blah, blah, and the next day he said, look, I love you, but you can't drink at my house anymore.

[2164] And I was like, oh, fuck.

[2165] Because I knew we already had a pretty low bar for our ethics.

[2166] And I appreciated that he did call me out on it.

[2167] Yeah.

[2168] And it kind of started me on a path.

[2169] Yeah.

[2170] I have something different than my friends do.

[2171] They like the party, but they're not a degenerate alcoholic.

[2172] And I was.

[2173] Yeah.

[2174] Yeah.

[2175] But in general, don't you find that's the weird thing about.

[2176] ethics.

[2177] Like, if you point out something that I'm doing wrong by your estimation, but that's not in my moral code, I don't even care.

[2178] You're like, you should wave after you, you know, you get in line or something.

[2179] Yeah.

[2180] I won't feel judged by that because I don't, I personally don't buy into it.

[2181] Isn't that the weird thing about shame and ethics?

[2182] It's like, they have to actually point out something that they, they know you do care about.

[2183] That's interesting.

[2184] Not for me. Not for you.

[2185] It depends on.

[2186] If someone said, you should be more friendly.

[2187] Wouldn't you just go like, yeah, you have a different barometer of how friendly you think people need to be, and I don't think I need to be that friendly?

[2188] Depends on who's telling me that.

[2189] If it's someone I trust, I would take that in as, oh, I'm coming off really rude.

[2190] Or different, yeah, different than I think I am.

[2191] So I'm going to make an effort.

[2192] If it's someone I respect and trust and no loves me, if it's a stranger, I don't care what they are telling me to do.

[2193] But, yeah, if you told me to do something and I was like, oh, I don't even think that really matters, I'd be like, but maybe it does matter.

[2194] Right.

[2195] You would think about it.

[2196] Yeah.

[2197] And I probably, I've made a lot of changes.

[2198] I think that, you know, you told me that you didn't like that I say the word hate all the time.

[2199] And I don't say that word anymore.

[2200] I mean, I say in jest, if we're talking about like something funny, I hate that.

[2201] Like, I hate found features.

[2202] or something.

[2203] But I take in what people say.

[2204] Me too.

[2205] I mean, I know that they care about me. But if I'm being honest, sometimes in those cases, it's just that I value them and I'm willing to do something different to be around them.

[2206] It's not necessarily that I came to believe that that was a good point or is defendable or objectively the right thing to do.

[2207] I'll just go like, well, I want to be around them so I can I can oblige that to stay in their presence.

[2208] I have a lot of those being married.

[2209] There's a ton of stuff I'm doing that.

[2210] I don't agree with.

[2211] I don't really think there's a foundation for why I should do it that way.

[2212] But I'm willing to.

[2213] Yeah.

[2214] You know?

[2215] So the more expensive, the treatment, the greater the placebo effect, she said.

[2216] And that is true.

[2217] There are lots of studies about that.

[2218] It's true.

[2219] It makes sense.

[2220] If you think like, if they're charging $10 ,000 for this thing, it has to be.

[2221] Yes.

[2222] I would totally.

[2223] I can see my brain being very susceptible.

[2224] because I like expensive things.

[2225] I know.

[2226] I always, with the time I'm most aware of it is like facial products.

[2227] It's like basically all they've got to do is charge like $400 for a face cream.

[2228] And I'm like, oh, well, it must have some science in it.

[2229] I mean, who could just charge?

[2230] But you could just charge $400 for a normal face cream.

[2231] I know.

[2232] I'm sure many of them do.

[2233] I'm sure they do.

[2234] Although I'm using a very expensive face cream currently and I love it.

[2235] It's worth every penny.

[2236] It is worth it.

[2237] Anyway, so.

[2238] That's all.

[2239] That's all she wrote?

[2240] Yeah.

[2241] Okay.

[2242] Love you.

[2243] Love you.

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