313 - This is Criminal

[0] This is exactly right.

[1] Hello, and welcome to my favorite murder.

[2] That's Georgia Hard Star.

[3] Thank you.

[4] That's Karen Kilgariff.

[5] And I'm Phoebe Judge, and this is criminal.

[6] Yes.

[7] Oh, it's so exciting to hear those words and see your face as they happen.

[8] What a treat.

[9] Yes, so exciting.

[10] Well, I'm happy that you asked me to be here.

[11] We've been criminal fans for a long time, as you know, and we love the work.

[12] you do and so this is we're very excited when this uh when this idea came to light it was it was thrilling and we're so excited to see you and to be talking to you yeah well it's kind of like you know you have these satellites out there you know you have my favorite murder and you have criminal and we hit each other sometimes we send signals out that's right and um and they bounce off each other and now uh we finally get to to be kind of in the same room yes and And our worlds are going to collide for a second.

[13] Yeah.

[14] And we want to do the most we can to not explode your satellite.

[15] And in any, I feel like I can't curse too much in this.

[16] You know what I mean?

[17] Like there's certain curse words I normally use on our podcast that I'm just not going to.

[18] That's not going to fly on criminal.

[19] They're not going to be having our inaccurate information over on that side of things.

[20] I do, in real life, do say bad words sometimes.

[21] Oh, let's hear it.

[22] And it's a little, we hide that all, but I have been known to say something bad.

[23] And it's always a little shocking, but it has happened.

[24] Do you think, could we just get one fuck out of you just to hear, just for the experience of it?

[25] Like, I like, I spill my water all the time.

[26] the studio because I've just bottles all around me. And I'll say like, Motherfuck.

[27] Oh, great.

[28] Yes.

[29] Great.

[30] And then we immediately take it out.

[31] So no one actually has to hear me say anything like that.

[32] That's right.

[33] It's not on brand.

[34] It's not on brand with criminal and what you've built.

[35] Absolutely not.

[36] How about you edit those and just send them over to us from now on and we'll plug those in on our podcast like a, like we're like morning DJs and doing it.

[37] I'll give you a whole reel.

[38] Yes, great.

[39] No matter the mood, I'll give you a word for it.

[40] Great.

[41] Yeah, we'd love different tones and different inflections.

[42] And it's just, you know, let's play with it.

[43] Or in the middle of an interview, you're talking to some old woman about this amazing thing that she's done that she also got arrested for.

[44] And then it's like, well, that's fucking great.

[45] I'm Phoebe Judge.

[46] And this is criminal.

[47] I love the, I love the, like, summary of criminal.

[48] There's some amazing woman.

[49] She's done incredible things.

[50] But she also got arrested for it.

[51] You know how it goes.

[52] Fuck.

[53] Fuck.

[54] And she fucking got arrested for it.

[55] All right.

[56] So do you want to explain what you're about to do?

[57] Yeah.

[58] So we have story ideas all the time that we can't do because we can't find someone to tell it because it's too old or no one knows about it.

[59] And so we don't get to do.

[60] it because we, the whole show is built on people who have actual experience with the event or some historian who knows a lot about it.

[61] And so we've been, we've these collection of stories that we just haven't known what to do with.

[62] And when we started talking about doing something together, we thought, well, this could be the perfect chance for me to get to tell you one of these stories that we've been really obsessed with but just haven't found anything to do, how to make it an episode.

[63] And so we thought that it could be interesting to tell you the story about two women and what happened to them in 1946.

[64] This was originally reported in The New Yorker in 1953 and then kind of not talked much about.

[65] But it's a really interesting story.

[66] And so that's what we thought we do.

[67] I tell you about Pearl and Olga and this wild man who entered their lives and kind of ruined both of them.

[68] Love it.

[69] I love it.

[70] I had never heard this one at all, even though it is wild.

[71] It feels like it should be on the level of, you know, the Bonnie and Clyde that gets told over and over again.

[72] The experience of this, especially as a person who listens to Criminal, is the podcast listener's dream, which is you're listening to a podcast or tell you a story, but you actually get to say something back.

[73] Like there's an interactive element that we get to have in an episode of Criminal essentially is what's going on right now.

[74] and it's really, it's really a thrill.

[75] It almost feels like mystery science theater, you know, we're in the front row, just screaming at the screen.

[76] Yes, please, please Phoebe Judge, tell us a story.

[77] Yes.

[78] Okay.

[79] Well, in the fall of 1946, a woman named Pearl Lusk, she just graduated from high school outside of Philadelphia, moved to New York City.

[80] She got a job in a department store.

[81] She got a room on the Upper West Side, and was kind of living the dream of moving to New York after graduating from high school in a small town and seeing it all.

[82] And she was having a ball.

[83] She was having a really good time.

[84] Her parents lived in Brooklyn.

[85] And she was visiting them on Thanksgiving and was traveling home on the subway and a man approached her and asked if she wanted to go out.

[86] And she said, I don't go out with men I don't know, thank you very much, and went on her way.

[87] She continued to work.

[88] It was ramping up.

[89] It was the holiday season.

[90] It was December in New York City.

[91] And on Christmas Eve, she was told that she was going to be laid off because the holiday rush was over, and she wasn't going to have a job.

[92] So she was a little downtrodden.

[93] She thought she'd kind of made it, and now she's jobless.

[94] She goes back to visit her family the day after Christmas in Brooklyn.

[95] and is on that same subway home and sees this man again.

[96] She described him as the most handsome man she'd ever seen.

[97] She kind of thought he must be an actor.

[98] He was so handsome and dressed incredibly well.

[99] And he says, again, want to get a drink.

[100] And for whatever reason, she says, sure.

[101] And they get off at Times Square and they go to a bar, and she orders a whiskey and seven up, a scotch and seven up.

[102] I think that's called a 7 -and -7.

[103] Mm -hmm.

[104] And they're having a drink, and he says his name is Alan Leroux.

[105] And she's totally charmed by the way he looks.

[106] And he tells her that he's a private detective.

[107] And she'd been really into Perry Mason and mysteries and detective stories, and she's intrigued.

[108] And they're talking, and she says, I've been laid off.

[109] And he says, well, would you be interested in a job?

[110] And she says, I guess so.

[111] and he said, okay, come and meet me tomorrow morning, and I'll give you a job.

[112] So this 19 -year -old girl, Pearl Usk, meets this man, Alan the Rue, the next day, and he tells her some more about what he does.

[113] He is a private detective for an insurance company, and the insurance company looks into insuring jewelry and then recovering stolen jewelry.

[114] And Alan the Rue tells Pearl that the job, job will be to follow a woman who's working at a hat company and go to see this woman and see if she's stealing jewelry from one of their clients.

[115] He tells Pearl that he can't be the one to follow this woman and see if she's stolen the jewelry because she already knows his face and she'll catch on and just ditch the jewelry.

[116] So they need someone who this woman named Olga has never seen before.

[117] And he said, you've got to figure out what she looks like.

[118] So I want you to go to this office, to this Croden Hat Company office, where she's a secretary, and ask for a fake woman, Sheila.

[119] And they'll say, there's no Sheila here, but you'll be able to get a look at this woman, Olga.

[120] You'll know what she looks like.

[121] She's hiding the jewelry in her jacket.

[122] And so you'll know what she looks like.

[123] And then what you're going to do is you're going to follow her.

[124] So Pearl says, okay, she goes to the hat company offices, she gets a good look at Olga.

[125] She meets Alan LaRue again and says, I know what she looks like, it's clear to me. And he says, okay, here's what you're going to do.

[126] We need proof that she stole in the jewelry.

[127] We can't get the cops involved until we know that she has the jewelry.

[128] So he says that he needs her to take a photograph of this woman Olga's coat.

[129] where she's hiding the jewelry and she's going to do this Pearl will do this because Alan is going to give her a disguised camera, an X -ray camera that will take a picture through her coat and when it gets developed they'll see that she's hiding the jewelry in the coat.

[130] And so he hands Pearl this paper -colored shoebox covered in kind of brown parcel paper and on one end of it there's a little hole where the camera is supposed to be.

[131] supposedly sticking out.

[132] And he tells Pearl where Olga gets on the train and he says you're going to get on the train with Olga and you're going to follow her.

[133] And when she gets off the train, you're going to get as close as possible to her, two and a half to three feet.

[134] He was pretty specific.

[135] And you're going to take the picture.

[136] And so Olga and Pearl are on the same train.

[137] Pearl follows her.

[138] Gets off the train.

[139] It's supposed to pull this wire under the parcel, this odd shoebox -shaped parcel, which apparently has an x -ray camera in it.

[140] And And she does, and she takes a picture of this woman Olga's back of her coat.

[141] And she goes and she delivers the camera with the supposed film in it to Alan the Rue.

[142] And he says, okay, let me try to develop it and I'll let you know what comes out if we got a good picture.

[143] It's a little time pass.

[144] And Alan lets Pearl know that the picture didn't work.

[145] It didn't come out.

[146] And so he says, I'm going to get a new camera, and I'm going to call you in a few days and tell you when the camera's ready.

[147] Pearl says, okay.

[148] So a few days later, Alan calls.

[149] They meet again, and Alan delivers Pearl a new box.

[150] This time, it's wrapped in Christmas, Happy New Year paper.

[151] And it still has this hole in one end of it, in kind of where the camera lens might be.

[152] It's a lot heavier than the last box, and it still has.

[153] has this wire underneath that Pearl is supposed to pull when she wants to take the camera shot.

[154] So again, Pearl gets on the train with Olga, coming from Brooklyn into Manhattan, gets off at the station, stands right behind Olga, two and a half to three feet, gets ready to take the picture, pulls the wire on the bottom of this box, and a gunshot comes out of them.

[155] I was afraid you were going to say that You knew And it's New Year's Eve And they're at the Times Square train station She pulls the wire loop A blast occurs And this box Which actually is holding a sawed -off shotgun shoots Olga's left leg Nearly Completely off Oh my God Pearl is so close to Olga Because Alan Leroux has said you have to get really close, that Pearl is covered in Olga's blood.

[156] And when a guard, everyone, I mean, Pearl is shocked.

[157] She didn't know that this box had a gun in it.

[158] When the subway guard asks Pearl what happened, she says, I just took a woman's picture, but somebody shot her.

[159] She didn't even know that she had been the one to shoot her because she had no idea.

[160] When they opened the box up, they see that it's got a sought -off shotgun in it.

[161] and Pearl is now standing over Olga who's laying on the ground almost bleeding to death and Pearl is saying I'm so sorry I shot you in a state of shock she had no idea she said I thought I was taking your picture with an x -ray camera and Olga laying there on the ground looks up and there's people around of course and according to these people these witnesses Olga says well he got me this time Now he's crippled me, so I can't get away.

[162] Ooh, I just, no joke, I just got chills.

[163] And she's taken to the hospital.

[164] Where her left leg is amputated inches above her knee because the damage was so great.

[165] So that's the story, is what?

[166] What the hell?

[167] I didn't know you could put an x -ray camera in a shoebox in 1946 or that They even had x -ray cameras in 1946.

[168] I don't know.

[169] I mean, can you do that today?

[170] I don't even know if you can do that today.

[171] Yeah, it sounds fake.

[172] I mean, that sounds like the thing in the back of a richy -rich comic where it's like, you know, X -ray camera, see -through people's clothes.

[173] It's like, this is why you don't talk to people on the soul.

[174] That's what you're getting out of.

[175] That's why this is the rule.

[176] Just keep your head down.

[177] No chit -chat.

[178] No matter how good looking they are.

[179] Yeah.

[180] I just feel like, though, a 19 -year -old who's, like, excited and into Perry Mason and detective stuff, and there's this hot detective, nicely dressed, sends you on this cool mission that sounds legit.

[181] There's details in it, you know?

[182] Also, the first time, and then it just didn't work, it's like such a, it's such a devious, horrifying setup.

[183] It's all, it's all, I'm going along with this private.

[184] detective and this is how stuff like this works and I'm just doing what he tells me and nothing happened the first time.

[185] Why would anything happen the second time?

[186] Yeah.

[187] Yeah.

[188] And I mean, the leap from x -ray camera to sought off shotgun, I mean, I wouldn't, I wouldn't make that leap if I wrapped in Christmas, Happy New Year paper.

[189] Yeah.

[190] Yeah.

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[211] So when the police question Pearl, who really is this rather innocent 19 -year -old, who just as I was approached by this man named Alan Leroux, that coupled with what Olga had said of, well, he's crippled me now, now he can get me. They start putting two and two together.

[212] Alan Leroux's real name was Alphonse Roco.

[213] and he and Olga had been married in May of 1945.

[214] They had met in 1944 at a dance.

[215] She had been obviously charmed by him as well.

[216] They had gotten married in May of 1945 and the relationship quickly goes south.

[217] Alphonse Roco had been a con man stealing cars, stealing money for years, had a police history, and the marriage does not work.

[218] In 1946, Olga decides to leave Alphonse Rocco and go on her own way and she moves to Brooklyn and they separate.

[219] Quickly, she realizes that Alphonse Roco is not going to leave her alone, still whatever he is with her, obsessed with her.

[220] And he begins following her.

[221] He starts to follow her on the subway to and from work.

[222] He offers to drive her.

[223] he sometimes will find her and then offer to drive her somewhere as she declines a lot of the time but finally one day for whatever reason she's tired and she says fine i'll get in the car with you and when she gets in the car her ex -husband alfonsooco puts a knife to her throat and says don't move or i'll kill you and he drives her to piccy to a cabin where he basically held her hostage for two days with this knife at her throat they drive back to New York he then buys a gun and starts threatening her with that then he drives her back to Poughkeepsie to a different cabin where he holds her for five days and they drive back to Brooklyn finally he drops Olga off at her family's house and goes away we don't really know why he just said five days of enough go back home now but he's now been threatening her for weeks On November 1st, just a few weeks before Alan Leroux, Alphonse Roco, meets Perilusk, Olga is standing in the kitchen or the dining room in her family's home near an open window, and she's shot through the thigh, a clean shot.

[224] She's just standing there, and a bullet comes in the window and shoots her through the thigh.

[225] She spends 10 days in the hospital, and she says at that point, to assistant district attorney to a detective with the NYPD my ex -husband is trying to kill me he's held me at gunpoint he's held me at knife point he's the one who shot me so she is telling anyone she can that this man is trying to get her the police over the next couple of weeks take some action they take a lot of statements they say that they're going to send someone to watch her while she's walking to and from the subway station some detectives do show up at some point to offer her this service but it doesn't work and throughout this whole time Alphonse Rocco, Alan Leroux is trying to get Pearl Lusk to step in and as we find out get close enough to actually shoot Olga and try to kill her I mean it's so evil it's like it's so the planning and the scheming to get to get this done is like it's like KGB level yeah that's right it is kind of like it is kind of like KGB level and also just really horrible I mean it's like gone from just terrible violent abuse to roping in other people and trying to be creative in the way that you can be the you know the ultimate abuse of killing her.

[226] Yeah.

[227] Wow.

[228] Yeah.

[229] So Pearl, you know, is complicit in going along with this x -ray camera, and Olga is actually terrified every time she leaves the house that she's going to see that she's going to get shot again or that she's going to see her ex -husband or that he's going to, you know, shoot her silently without seeing.

[230] I mean, he's done this before.

[231] He was able to do it, and she's convinced that.

[232] it was him.

[233] And finally, you know, as she says, he got me this time, I can't run away.

[234] So after this happens, Alphonse Rocco knows that this is all going to come out.

[235] And he steals a car and drives to the cat skills.

[236] And, you know, basically at gunpoint threatens people to give them their house for the night and he's on the run.

[237] On January 5th or 6, that's six days from the shooting, police find him in the Catskills.

[238] He's sleeping in a sleeping bag in 10 inches of snow under a tree, and the police fire a warning shot to get him to surrender.

[239] He fires back at them, and the police return fire and kills him.

[240] And when they went up to the body, they find on him a pill.

[241] picture of him and Olga in his pocket.

[242] And that's the end of Alphonse Rocco.

[243] Pearl and Olga actually kind of became friends, even though I think Pearl's life ended up a little happier than Olga.

[244] Olga loses her leg.

[245] Her family basically bankrupts themselves, paying for her doctor's bills.

[246] She starts selling costume jewelry to make ends meet.

[247] she ends up trying to sue the city of New York for $200 ,000 claiming that the police were negligent because she had made so many attempts to get them to pay attention to this very dangerous abusive man and they hadn't done it.

[248] They hadn't been successful.

[249] The argument on the other side is that the case is dismissed after five days because the judge says, well, while you might have a little bit of a valid point that that we were supposed to protect you from this man, it wasn't this man who actually shot you.

[250] It was Pearl Lusk who shot you.

[251] And so we can't, we're not going to give you any money.

[252] You know, it's kind of this legal detail that made them dismiss the case.

[253] And Pearl goes on to have a pretty happy life.

[254] She has a family.

[255] And I think Olga spends the rest of her life, you know, really struggling.

[256] She was 28.

[257] Olga was 28 when this happened when she was shot and her leg was taken by Perlusk.

[258] I mean, that's such a, that's such a hideous technicality.

[259] Right.

[260] Because there's, Pearl Lusk wouldn't have been doing any of it if it wasn't for the man who asked her to do it.

[261] It's almost illogical in that they're just getting her on this technicality of, well, we shouldn't have to pay for it.

[262] When Pearl was duped, you know, duped into this plan, it would, she didn't think she was doing anything trying to do harm.

[263] I mean, that's just, oh, horrifying.

[264] And also, why did he, why would he plan all of that to such insane detail?

[265] And then there's no escape plan.

[266] And his, his plan is, I just drive north and then sleep in the snow.

[267] Like, there was just, he was, clearly, it was just his obsession is what he was, dedicated to.

[268] You know, I've thought about this story over the years so much.

[269] You know, it's such a strange, sad, sad story.

[270] And when the police interviewed Olga, she said that she had seen Pearl on the train that morning because she had seen this young, pretty woman holding this big box that was wrapped in New Year's paper and had a hole in it.

[271] And so you can just imagine these two women riding into the city looking at each other across the car, both knowing that there's something odd.

[272] You know, Olga saying, why is this woman carrying this big present with a hole in it?

[273] And, you know, Pearl saying, well, there she is.

[274] I'm just going to get my shot and then I'll be the next Perry Mason.

[275] So they spent time in that subway car together looking at each other.

[276] I just, I wonder what, what that was like if you could have just been a fly on the wall in that, in that subway car, watching Pearl holding that box, Pearl, having no idea that what was inside was a sawed -off shotgun.

[277] Yeah, and why would Olga, I mean, I think most people would see that hole and not think, especially back then, you know, have any idea of what it was, or that it was, if they kind of were sketchy about it, that it was meant for them in any way.

[278] Well, but also because Pearl wouldn't have been giving anything away.

[279] She's innocent.

[280] So she's probably staring around.

[281] There's no, she's not giving off weird vibes of, oh, my God, I have to get the shotgun and the rights.

[282] There's nothing like that.

[283] So she's not going to betray anything.

[284] It's, you know, sorry to give credit, but it is kind of the perfect plan in how horrifyingly evil it is in that way.

[285] What a cover.

[286] Well, and that he was able to say to.

[287] The Pearl, you've got to get close because the camera's got to get a shot.

[288] So you've really got to be within two feet or the camera won't pick up the jewelry, you know, knowing that you've got to be kind of close with a shotgun, the sawed -off shotgun.

[289] And when there's a picture of the actual box Pearl was carrying and, you know, he's rigged up this shotgun with some twine on top of a kind of a plywood box with the shotgun just rigged up on top with twine and a wire around the trigger.

[290] And then around it, you see all of the wrapping paper.

[291] You know, it's, yeah, quite a sight.

[292] She could have shot anybody on that subway accident.

[293] I mean, anything could have happened.

[294] Yeah, anything could have happened.

[295] And, you know, then would, if she had shot someone else, would two and two have ever been put together of who this guy really was, you know?

[296] Right.

[297] It's so sad, too, with Olga, you know.

[298] Now we probably would know that she had PTSD after this.

[299] experience of being stocked for, you know, who knows how long that lasted and, you know, and being targeted in such a horrible way.

[300] Yeah.

[301] I mean, imagine those weeks up, you know, November 1st, she shot.

[302] And then December 30th, the day before she shot again, she goes to police headquarters and basically begs for help.

[303] You know, she says she's so afraid she doesn't know what to do.

[304] And the detective she speaks to is so concerned by the story that he calls another lieutenant and says, hey, you know, we're going to have a homicide on our hands if we don't do something.

[305] I mean, and this is just the day before.

[306] But she knows she's got to get up the next morning.

[307] And she knows she has to go to work and get on the subway or she's going to lose her job, you know, and what's she going to do?

[308] Right.

[309] Oh, wow.

[310] Yeah, we've never been able to.

[311] find anyone to tell that story, but I, I, it's just the, it's one of the wildest stories I've ever heard.

[312] And I, no one really knows it.

[313] Totally.

[314] Yeah.

[315] It's crazy.

[316] That's, that's insane.

[317] And it would, like, if that was in a movie, you would be like, oh, this is a little corny.

[318] I wouldn't buy it.

[319] Yeah.

[320] Or it sounds like a Hitchcock movie.

[321] It's like, it's totally diabolical, you know?

[322] It's like, amazing.

[323] Amazing.

[324] Amazing.

[325] Phoebe, Judge, you've done it again.

[326] Well, I, you know, I'm glad to bring some light to these two women and an x -ray camera in 1946.

[327] I mean, of all the things he could have said, to come up with an x -ray camera because she's hiding the jewelry in her coat.

[328] I mean, that right there is, that's a lot of thinking ahead.

[329] Yeah.

[330] Yeah.

[331] Yeah.

[332] And the night, you know, if you hadn't met the exact.

[333] right woman for the job unfortunately not that she had anything to do with it but she she was naive and fell for it and I think a lot of us would have especially at 19 I mean she's yeah 19 and someone that's very like so good looking that they seem like a movie star where everything seems a little more believable and viable out of like a hot person's mouth and exciting yes and you know she at Pearl had arrived in New York and it was all working You know, she had that Upper West Side Room In the New York article They talk about how she is starting to change her hairdo That she had gotten rid of her bangs And so she was, you know, have that a lot of friends And she was out on the town And she's having a great time This is life, finally I got out of high school, I'm living life And then you're fired And so this reality has been ripped away from you And so, sure, this handsome guy says I want to buy you a drink And you say, what have I got to lose?

[334] Yeah.

[335] Yeah, that's kind of part of the dream.

[336] Like, right?

[337] Isn't that a little bit the next step when you're like, I'm going to move into the big city?

[338] And that's where people look like movie stars usually live.

[339] And I'm going to be in the mix.

[340] And I'm going to be metropolitan and exciting things are going to happen.

[341] And instead, it's a nightmare.

[342] I mean, oh, amazing.

[343] Anytime you have these stories that you can't.

[344] We want to get every.

[345] Every one.

[346] Please come back.

[347] Anytime.

[348] It's like.

[349] Any time.

[350] We have a lot of them, and I would love to because this is fun to be able to just to be able to tell it.

[351] And, you know, there's so many odd things out there.

[352] It surprises me every day, the stuff that we all find and just look at each other and say, could that actually have happened?

[353] You know, this isn't, real life is better than what they write in the movies.

[354] I mean, that is just true.

[355] And the stuff you find in this world, in this crime world, I mean, you can't write it.

[356] You couldn't write this, as you say, this Pearl and Old Story, you couldn't, it's too much.

[357] It's almost, it's too over the top.

[358] Yeah.

[359] It has to be real because it's too wild to not be real.

[360] Totally.

[361] Yeah.

[362] When you do these stories, is it, do people reach out to you with their stories or is it mostly you guys tracking people down?

[363] How hard is it when you need to track them down?

[364] Well, we people do write in with their stories and we love when people write in.

[365] but a lot of the time it's just us looking, constantly searching for interesting stories and stories that feel like they would be good on criminal on this show.

[366] You know, not every story works for us, but I think we've been doing it now for seven years, and so we kind of, when we see it, we kind of know.

[367] We don't even have to say much.

[368] Someone will send a link or, you know, I'll look at Lauren Spore, you know, co -creator of the show.

[369] And it's like, oh, perfect.

[370] You know, perfect in the sense of this, we have to follow up on this.

[371] But, you know, some of my favorite stories people have written in about.

[372] So it's this odd mix of, you know, and because those little odd, strange stories oftentimes don't get written about or there's no article to find.

[373] Right.

[374] You have to rely on someone saying, hey, I heard about this odd thing.

[375] I thought you might be interested.

[376] Or like the episode you guys had recently.

[377] when you talked to the man who I believe is almost 100 or really close and he was the lawyer at the Nuremberg trial, it is the most unbelievable.

[378] But then his audio and you interviewing him where Phoebe would get on the phone with him, he'd be like, all right, let's move this along.

[379] It's the kind of thing that if it were an article or a magazine or a magazine or something, you wouldn't get the real sense because his accomplishments and who he was in this incredible historically unbelievable time, you wouldn't ever think that's what he's like.

[380] And the way that whole episode rolled out where you, it's like you knew him by the end of that episode.

[381] You knew that man and what he had accomplished and it wasn't, you know, he wasn't self -serious and he wasn't self -congratulatory and he wasn't there to teach every.

[382] It was like he was telling you his morning exercise routine.

[383] And then at the end he was like, all right, I don't have time to keep on talking.

[384] I have other stuff to do.

[385] Like, it was the funniest, most beautiful kind of profile that, like, the audio is everything for that, a story like that.

[386] Yeah, and that, he had no time for me. That's true.

[387] I love it.

[388] And I knew that the minute I walked it in.

[389] It was so funny.

[390] Yeah.

[391] The minute I walked into his house, I thought, well, this man is seven times as busy as I am on my, what I think, busiest day.

[392] And Phoebe, just be ready when he kicks you out of her.

[393] but but the thing about there's a there's a moment in that interview it's why i like this i like sound so much and he's uh talking about an absolutely horrendous scene that happened in a concentration camp that he saw and um you can tell it's painful for him to be telling me i mean horrible horrible stuff and uh he tells me and then very seriously he says next question Yep.

[394] I'm done.

[395] Yep.

[396] Move on.

[397] And that, hearing him say that like that, to me, was all seven paragraphs of writing about how he felt about what he saw or, you know, what it took to get over that wouldn't have done what he did by telling me next question.

[398] And I think that can be so powerful in this all.

[399] And it feels really lucky to get to talk to people and hear their stories.

[400] and we always say on this show is the best episodes of criminal are the ones where you hear me the least because the person's story is just so compelling that you don't need me summing it up because they're doing it.

[401] They're doing it with their voice and the words they choose and what they're putting in and what they're leaving out but not leaving out because they're trying to omit something but just because you can tell what they're saying or not saying.

[402] It makes doing this for as long as we've been doing it just still, still fun and feel important some days.

[403] Yeah, it is.

[404] It's beautiful.

[405] Definitely.

[406] And you are so skilled.

[407] You have that little, you know, knowing when and what to ask.

[408] And so when you're listening, you're like, wait, what was that?

[409] I want to know more.

[410] and then immediately you come out and say that you have the sixth sense when you're interviewing someone about an important, and these are such delicate topics, obviously, that you talk to people about and they open up to you in a way that I feel like it's because you have this, you know, energy and skill.

[411] It's amazing to watch.

[412] Well, I think you both have a lot more fun in a little bit.

[413] A little bit.

[414] A little.

[415] I kind of, I'm just.

[416] jealous of what you get to do and these fans of yours who are so wildly devoted to you and and love to hear you and love to hear what you have to say and the way that you tell stories and such you know that's that's an accomplishment to create a tribe of of people who you know that feels like a a real thing to have done thank you yeah thank you we're it's we have to be genuine.

[417] But, you know, you can't, that doesn't just, you don't pay for that.

[418] You know, you don't pay for people's allegiance and their loyalty.

[419] People can sniff stuff out, quick.

[420] Especially in audio.

[421] It's like, absolutely.

[422] That's what it is.

[423] It's that authenticity in interviews or when people are, you know, speaking about themselves for themselves.

[424] You know when someone's just giving you, like, the party line.

[425] The other thing that I really love is that, you know, I, I, came up doing stand -up comedy, which is one of the most competitive cut -throat things you could do with your time.

[426] The idea that podcasting, because people can listen to 29 podcasts a day, it's, we're not competing with each other.

[427] It's, the content, like, needs to keep on coming.

[428] It's so, in, it's the opposite of that.

[429] It's, we all get to be supporting each other and pointing to each other and going, you have to listen to this and you have to listen to that.

[430] to me that's one of the most satisfying parts of this where we all we all are fans of this you know specific kind of media and then we get to be like if you like this you'll love this or you know i mean like to me that's the that's the best part and the idea that we get to sit here and talk to you when we're such fans of what you do is just a dream it really is well that's you're you've been both have been so nice to to us and our little show and, you know, anytime, sometimes people say, well, they did your voice, Phoebe, you know.

[431] And so, and I hear about it and I'm so happy.

[432] I said, well, isn't that nice?

[433] It's all in reverence.

[434] Full respect.

[435] Yeah.

[436] Full respect.

[437] No, no, no. I mean, that's the nice, that's the nicest thing to have you talk about the show and, and, and be Phoebe for a minute.

[438] At most people, no, I mean, most people are waiting for me to, for my voice to, you know, they kind of meet me sometimes and they'll say, oh, it's your real voice.

[439] It's not an act.

[440] It's actually really tough.

[441] Well, thank you so much.

[442] This was awesome.

[443] Can we please do it again?

[444] It would be so cool.

[445] We will start getting our list ready of stories that I can tell you.

[446] you about because I think that would be the best thing.

[447] Yes.

[448] Amazing.

[449] We're honored.

[450] We are huge fans and we appreciate so much you coming on and sharing that incredible story with us.

[451] Yeah, that was so great.

[452] Watch out for X -ray cameras.

[453] Absolutely.

[454] That's our new tagline for this crossover.

[455] Let's get a T -shirt made.

[456] No matter what episode, watch out for X -Air cameras.

[457] Yeah.

[458] Thank you both very much.

[459] Thank you.

[460] Thank you.

[461] I'm Phoebe Judge.

[462] This is criminal.

[463] Motherfucker.

[464] Elvis, do you want a cookie?

[465] This has been an exactly right production.

[466] Our producer is Hannah Kyle Crichton.

[467] Our associate producer is Alejandro Keck.

[468] Engineered and mixed by Andrew Eepin.

[469] Send us your hometowns at my favorite murder at gmail .com.

[470] Follow the show on Instagram and Facebook at My Favorite Murder and Twitter at My Fave Murder.

[471] For more information about the podcast, live shows, merch, or to join the fan cult, go to my favoritemerder .com.

[472] And please rate, review, and subscribe.

[473] Goodbye.

[474] Goodbye.