Race to 35: Day 4 + Eve Wiley + Bee

[0] It's Saturday.

[1] It's Saturday.

[2] It's the weekend.

[3] How are you doing?

[4] On a scale from one to a manic.

[5] I don't feel a manic.

[6] I feel frustrated.

[7] And what are you frustrated by?

[8] Was it all little things or are there big things too?

[9] There's nothing things like what just happened where the mic was...

[10] Monica just got into a battle.

[11] Like a physical fist fight with the mic.

[12] The mic stand wasn't in the right spot.

[13] So things like that.

[14] But also, I just had my second appointment.

[15] You go in after your three days.

[16] And you had yours a day before me. So I had mine just came back from it.

[17] So they go in again with their dildo.

[18] And what they do is, you know, they look at your follicles.

[19] They're measuring your follicles because they want them to get bigger.

[20] So some of them have gotten bigger and some haven't.

[21] Okay.

[22] She's like, we'll keep pushing through.

[23] and I'm increasing medication like you did.

[24] Because, yeah, yesterday I got a double dose.

[25] It's my new dose.

[26] And I was worried about what that meant.

[27] And then you were like, I bet I'm going to get a double dose too.

[28] And here we are.

[29] So they've adjusted medication and stuff.

[30] And they're like pushing through.

[31] But she had like such a hopeless look on her face.

[32] She's just like, okay, there are five that are big and probably, you know, retrievable.

[33] And then the rest, the other four are not as big as she wants.

[34] them to be.

[35] So maybe with these doses, maybe, you know, fingers crossed that we'll get one or two more, but the number we're looking at is five.

[36] Okay.

[37] And what is...

[38] Out of 30 is not good.

[39] I just shouldn't say out of 30.

[40] That's like...

[41] 30.

[42] No one has 30 in this room.

[43] I don't know who 30 is.

[44] 30 is like a 21 -year -old.

[45] We're not comparing ourselves to 21 -year -olds.

[46] And we can't compare ourselves to anyone.

[47] And, you know, she like said it and then she just looked at me, she was like, how many cycles were you thinking about doing just one?

[48] Of course she has to say that.

[49] Like, she's like, this is not what you want, you know?

[50] And I was like, well, yeah, I'm definitely going to have to do this again is what's becoming clear.

[51] How quickly can I do it again?

[52] And she was like, you could literally do it the next month, your next period.

[53] And I was like, but yeah, but I would need to get off birth control.

[54] And she was like, yeah, I think that would help.

[55] But that would definitely increase your number.

[56] I'd recommend at least getting off for four months.

[57] And then she was like, You know, it's not indicative of how likely you'll be to get pregnant.

[58] It's just your reserve.

[59] And if you get off the birth control, it's not like we're going to go from 5 to 30.

[60] Right.

[61] We might get like 10.

[62] And I was like, oh, okay.

[63] So in some ways, the birth control isn't having like a drastic effect.

[64] So I felt some relief.

[65] But then I was like, oh, it's my body.

[66] I don't have very many.

[67] And she was like, yeah.

[68] Well, okay.

[69] I think that the fact that you've been on birth control, though, since you've been 18, is the body that you made in ways, again, someone could be, I don't know if you're like, get punched in the gut all the time because you're like a W .W .E. Like, whatever.

[70] Like, that would also impact you.

[71] And you were on birth control, which you were on an FDA approved, very common form of birth control.

[72] But it seems like it does impact.

[73] I think what she's saying is that we'll leave your system.

[74] If you get off, if you get off four months, six months.

[75] we'll leave your system.

[76] She wasn't like that's had a permanent effect on you.

[77] But we don't know.

[78] You don't know.

[79] You don't know.

[80] You don't know.

[81] You don't know.

[82] Maybe being on it for that long may be had an effect.

[83] I don't know.

[84] But ultimately, if and when I get off after this whole journey, I still won't have that many.

[85] But then it's cumulative, right?

[86] It's like the five plus the those.

[87] Then if I, oh my God, like, am I into this three times?

[88] No, because things in your life might change.

[89] I mean, Callie did it twice.

[90] And like the second time, she's doing it with embryos and met a person.

[91] Like, I get it.

[92] I totally want to validate all of the feelings as we've compared notes of blacking out during most of these.

[93] It is so intense.

[94] I've never made a decision about what I've eaten, what I've done based on my fertility.

[95] I think about, you know, how healthy I feel or like other things.

[96] Yeah.

[97] And I think most people, it's like that until you're ready to have kids.

[98] And so it does feel like this thing of, oh my God, this whole time I didn't know.

[99] I haven't been planning.

[100] I haven't been planning.

[101] I haven't been planning for this.

[102] I haven't been thinking about this.

[103] I didn't have all the information.

[104] And even then, if 15 years ago when the pill was very necessary for you for a whole array of reasons, someone would have told you like, oh, by the way, when you're 35 and you're doing this cool podcast because you're like this big famous person, you will have maybe like five eggs less.

[105] You would have done it.

[106] Of course.

[107] Yes.

[108] So in some ways, it's relieved me of this birth control issue.

[109] It's a factor, but it's not the factor that I put all this emphasis.

[110] on.

[111] So there's some relief there, but I have this weird thing where I'm like, I'm relieved.

[112] And then I also have this added, oh my God, my body is broken.

[113] Like, it doesn't make the same amount of eggs as other people.

[114] Like, I'm stupid.

[115] Well, you know, it's just like, I'm not, I'm like bad and broken and like an idiot.

[116] Immediately it goes just to all those things.

[117] So worthless.

[118] Okay, so we did drink.

[119] Yes.

[120] Oh, you didn't.

[121] Well, because I've been pothead this whole time.

[122] without knowing it.

[123] But can we just pause on that?

[124] I'm about to cry.

[125] It's my about to cry.

[126] Do you need me?

[127] Because it's like I so get it.

[128] Like I want to tell you all the things that are like, no, it's not true.

[129] Like I want to give you all of that because also there's so many other things that make you who you are and that like we are worthy for so many, so many, so many different reasons.

[130] Egg count is like weight or SAT score.

[131] It's like a number to kind of latch onto and then to use as evidence of this deep held belief.

[132] you know, whatever it is about ourselves that one sliver part of our brain is looking for and on top of it, your own hormones.

[133] So I'm sure that was really painful.

[134] I'm sure that was really hard to sort of take in.

[135] But I do want to tell you, you are not worth this.

[136] You're so amazing.

[137] You might meet the person and then literally get pregnant on the first try.

[138] It doesn't mean you're infertile.

[139] Even if you're infertile doesn't mean that you're bad.

[140] That doesn't mean that you're broken.

[141] There's so many things my body can do that your body can do.

[142] It's just so weird.

[143] It's just like the SAT score, I like grew up knowing that's a number that I like want to achieve.

[144] I didn't care until now.

[145] I care all of a sudden.

[146] I didn't know to care.

[147] That's probably the right thing.

[148] I shouldn't be going through life being like, I hope I have a lot of eggs at my body.

[149] Like who would I be if I was that person?

[150] And most women don't.

[151] Right.

[152] Like most women aren't freezing their eggs.

[153] There's a lot of women, more women who are doing it, but it's still a minority.

[154] And so most women are walking around with five eggs, not.

[155] knowing they have five eggs, living a blissful, ignorant life.

[156] Like you.

[157] Like I was.

[158] Four weeks ago.

[159] And hopefully going to take our notes.

[160] I feel like they shouldn't tell you the number in a way that, by the way, when you used to go to the doctor, they would tell you your weight.

[161] And now they say, do you want to know?

[162] It's not saying they're going to keep it secret and in a minimal envelope and, like, we're not going to tell you your result.

[163] But I think they should ask you, is this something you want to know?

[164] Because I feel like they're withholding information from me because they know I have anxiety.

[165] Like my doctor texts me this morning.

[166] She's like, are you okay?

[167] They've offered me their therapy.

[168] Like, I think they're worried a little bit.

[169] Day two was bad.

[170] And also, I think they've been taking note of all my late -night mistakes.

[171] And, like, I think they're like, is she okay?

[172] Oh, yeah, because you're like texting them at like midnight.

[173] I'm going to have an embolism.

[174] I got the dosed drawer.

[175] I took the wrong thing out.

[176] It's like, is she on the brink?

[177] And yes, I am.

[178] Because I've doubled my dose.

[179] And then she was just like, oh, there just seems to be a lot of estrogen.

[180] Like, I'm producing a lot of estrogen.

[181] I guess it's not great.

[182] But then I was like, maybe that's why I was crazy.

[183] She, again, is, like, not really telling me that much information.

[184] And I can tell that it's for my benefit.

[185] So anyway, sorry, there's, like, a really long way of explaining.

[186] Like, I almost feel like they really should think about how they're delivering this information.

[187] Because, again, we're also not equipped to really understand it.

[188] Like, we barely understand anything.

[189] Also, I'm not trying to, like, make you feel better.

[190] I want to also make space for, like, all those feelings.

[191] I know it's so much.

[192] No, it's just such a bizarre thing to feel disappointed in something you don't even know if you want, want, too, yes.

[193] Oh, my gosh, I do.

[194] I want to get pregnant.

[195] Like, you know, I've had already this ride.

[196] But again, I'm not a person who feels, although now maybe I'm becoming her, I don't know, but that feels if I leave this earth without a kid, I'm devastated.

[197] I have never felt that And I don't still, even though now I'm like, oh, my gosh, I'm like thinking about it more.

[198] Even still, I'm like, that's not going to make or break my life.

[199] And even as that person, it's incredibly disappointing and sad.

[200] I'm thinking about all these women, so many women who are going through IVF and going through this process and not able to have kids.

[201] It's so heavy.

[202] I don't think I've had enough empathy.

[203] towards that because I just haven't been in it.

[204] I haven't thought about it.

[205] I haven't given it any space.

[206] And now I'm like, oh my gosh, it's so intense to be a woman and have to think about this kind of thing and deal with all the feelings that come with it.

[207] I feel the same way.

[208] And again, it's made me appreciate the female body so much more.

[209] And again, being weirdly like excited about being printing because it's like, my body can do this.

[210] Like my body can just, like how exciting.

[211] Yeah.

[212] But also remember that you also had that feeling while you were on the horn.

[213] hormones.

[214] And so you also might not even feel that way in two weeks.

[215] You might be like, fuck no. I don't even, you know.

[216] It's so weird.

[217] Like, what's real?

[218] What's real?

[219] God, you put it so well.

[220] What's real about what I'm thinking?

[221] What's real about what I'm experiencing?

[222] And what's even real about what I'm remembering happened.

[223] Yes.

[224] I thought back about the last few days.

[225] I'm like, was I weird when I...

[226] It's just foggy.

[227] It's all flippy fogs.

[228] What's real?

[229] Okay.

[230] So real quick.

[231] So we...

[232] We interviewed an awesome person yesterday who kind of was like, drinking is fine.

[233] And so I was like, I'm going to have one drink.

[234] My doctor said it was fine to drink.

[235] And then we kind of got some extra confirmation from somebody yesterday.

[236] And I was like, I'm going to.

[237] So we went to a wine bar.

[238] You had a non -alcoholic.

[239] It's gross.

[240] It's gross drink.

[241] And I had a glass of wine.

[242] And it was lovely.

[243] And it was super fun and a great chat.

[244] Then I got home an hour later and I was depressed.

[245] You were?

[246] You didn't tell me. I know, I didn't tell you.

[247] Oh, why?

[248] I don't know.

[249] I just, like, didn't want to revisit it immediately.

[250] Okay.

[251] I wanted to write it.

[252] By the time you came over at 9, it was over.

[253] I watched the rehearsal and it made me laugh and feel weird because he's like raising a baby in it.

[254] I know, it's weird.

[255] It's weird.

[256] It's a lot.

[257] It's kind of fascinating because he's doing the same thing.

[258] We are sort of.

[259] He's like practicing for a kid.

[260] and he's deciding, is it something he wants?

[261] Yeah, this is kind of a rehearsal.

[262] It is.

[263] It's like a weird sim.

[264] I had kind of come out of it, and I thought if I brought it back up, I would, like, sink back in.

[265] So I didn't.

[266] But, yeah, so I got very sad.

[267] Oh.

[268] And I was like, oh, I can't drink.

[269] And it's not because of the eggs.

[270] It'll make me depressed.

[271] It's like it's not good with these hormones.

[272] You said that early.

[273] I know.

[274] And I really didn't want it to be true.

[275] You did, but you also didn't know.

[276] I mean, that's why weed is perfect.

[277] and they need to make us let it.

[278] It just calms you down.

[279] Yeah.

[280] Unless you had an air bubble before, it would make you a little paranoid.

[281] Alcohol is a depressant.

[282] Yeah.

[283] And if you're in any kind of just a different kind of mood, it can go south.

[284] It can go south.

[285] Real quick.

[286] I'm so sorry.

[287] Were you okay going to bed and this morning, or were you still kind of low?

[288] I was fine going to bed.

[289] Then I woke up today, irritated and frustrated, but not sad per se.

[290] But then I got this kind of sad news.

[291] And, ugh, I kind of, I'm like, I want to throw in the towel, but I can, and that's fine.

[292] Remember, Callie had $30 million or whatever, because she was 27, and then she got three.

[293] I mean, she was young.

[294] She was younger than us, younger than us.

[295] You know, doesn't necessarily even correlate, but it can.

[296] And she only got three.

[297] We might start off from a different number, but then end up, I might end up with less than you.

[298] I don't know what's going on in there.

[299] Like, we don't know anything.

[300] I want you to get 30.

[301] There's no 30.

[302] We would have to grow extra ones.

[303] I'd have to, like, I don't know, get them from like the.

[304] market.

[305] Okay, well, I want you to get 24, which is the number of your follicles you think.

[306] Don't put it out there that you might have less because don't do that.

[307] Like, you should get 24 and I'll get five.

[308] Should we not talk about our numbers?

[309] No, we have to.

[310] We have to.

[311] Yeah, because content.

[312] Because you're type A, your anagram is one.

[313] Yeah, my aneagram one and we have to.

[314] You know, you're saying maybe the doctor shouldn't tell you, but they actually have to tell you because you do need to know how many you have because they have a die -off period.

[315] You need to know if you're going to use them how many you have.

[316] You're trying to give yourself the best shot for eventual use.

[317] Got it.

[318] That's what it's for.

[319] You have to know.

[320] If they take them all out, does that mean to have less in?

[321] It's per cycle.

[322] Okay.

[323] So there's new ones coming in.

[324] Exactly.

[325] That's why they can like do it again next month.

[326] And there might be more next month for you.

[327] It might be a totally different number.

[328] Exactly.

[329] It won't be a totally different.

[330] It could be a few different.

[331] per cycle, and then with this birth control, like with the, I have a hormone blocker in me. So like with that removed, then the number will increase.

[332] But again, still not like an insane amount.

[333] I don't think I mentally can do it again.

[334] I understand.

[335] You're like, I can tell.

[336] I just think I would have to be in Barbados, like make it like a destination egg freezing.

[337] It's just very hard.

[338] And maybe again, by the end I'll be like, that was easy.

[339] that was great.

[340] Like everything, you do, that's hard.

[341] We can do that things.

[342] We can do our things.

[343] And actually, yesterday's injections were the best injections because Monica made me laugh.

[344] She said, we can do that thing right before she chapped, jabbed me in the most compassionate loving way.

[345] It was a better.

[346] I didn't make any mistakes, which is a new thing.

[347] I did forget the box, but we used a water bottle.

[348] That was fine.

[349] We used a water bottle for our sharps can take.

[350] That's because I have a friend who is a really fabulous physical therapist, and she works in North Carolina, now Georgia.

[351] And in those states, you can do dry needling, which is a form of physical therapy.

[352] And they use needles.

[353] And when I see her, she does it on me. And so she has a sharp spin, obviously.

[354] Is that like acupuncture?

[355] Ish, but they go into the muscle.

[356] Not sure you'd love it.

[357] I don't know if it's for you.

[358] But when you have, like, tightness and not.

[359] and stuff and like they go into the muscle with this needle and like twitches and then it releases.

[360] It's incredibly effective.

[361] It's really good.

[362] So she does dry needling to me when I'm with her and she has a sharp spin, but sometimes if we're on vacation and she brings her needles and she doesn't bring her sharp spin, she's just a water bottle.

[363] Got it.

[364] Got it.

[365] It's good information.

[366] If you're freezing your eggs, if you're a physical therapist doing dry needling and if you're an addict.

[367] Yeah.

[368] Water bottles.

[369] I thought about this out last night where I was like, Would you have sex even if you could?

[370] This goes back to the whole thing.

[371] It's like why I'm not wearing tampons.

[372] I'm like, I'm afraid.

[373] And it makes no sense.

[374] Those things aren't even touching.

[375] Like nothing, nothing.

[376] It makes no logical sense.

[377] Well, also hormonally, it's like then when I fall in love.

[378] And then that's scary.

[379] Uh -oh.

[380] That is playing with fire.

[381] Yeah.

[382] Playing with fire because you fall in with the wrong person.

[383] Exactly.

[384] My whole lower body, like yesterday my friend Como came over.

[385] We all had lunch and she just kind of hugged me on that.

[386] I was like, it's tender.

[387] It's just sensitive.

[388] I wouldn't probably want to have sex even if I could.

[389] You know what it feels like really?

[390] I feel private about it.

[391] It's like it's mine.

[392] Like my body really feels like mine right now and like something to protect but also be mad at.

[393] You know, probably how I will be about my kids.

[394] I'll be protected and mad at them.

[395] That's exactly right.

[396] It's a rehearsal.

[397] How are you?

[398] I mean, I talked so much.

[399] No, I'm so happy you shared all of that.

[400] And obviously I'm here.

[401] I sent Monica photos of me crying in bed.

[402] But I did feel like a dog that goes away to die.

[403] Like I really wanted to hide under the bed and I didn't want to tell anyone how I was feeling except you.

[404] I don't know what you got sad about.

[405] But in my case, I was focusing on one thing.

[406] That was a real thing.

[407] But I was obviously dramatizing it so much.

[408] And so that's what would help me with when I went in the doctor while she had.

[409] to dildo inside of me giving me advice about dating.

[410] She was like, you know, ride the wave and it might come back.

[411] It's like, oh, it was like a wave.

[412] It was like being washed over and then you're like in it.

[413] But it reminds you that it will kind of pass.

[414] It does.

[415] It's all temporary.

[416] It's all temporary.

[417] But it also is scary.

[418] It is a lot.

[419] But it is important to remember.

[420] I mean, in general, I try to remember this feeling, this sadness.

[421] This is temporary.

[422] Yes.

[423] And then for this, this is literally temporary.

[424] Like, this is something you're doing for 10 days.

[425] It is going to be over.

[426] Yes.

[427] So that's an important thing to remember.

[428] It is.

[429] How are you feeling today?

[430] Do you feel happy?

[431] I don't feel happy.

[432] I, first of all, slept without any AIDS.

[433] Great.

[434] So that was great.

[435] And I went to bed early, woke up at like a, slept very well.

[436] Good.

[437] So I was really happy about that.

[438] And then I did wake up.

[439] I got like seven texts from the guy I'm dating.

[440] and like six out of the seven were like the most wonderful if there's anything I can do and then there was like one text that was like I would love to hang this weekend and I was like wait we made a plan to hang tonight is he not I'm going to hang out with me today and then like am I not important and then it's been like that so I'm seeing the fact that I'm in tunnel vision right now and I'm focusing on the one thing that could give me anxiety over the 18 billion things that are great I'm at a four okay but I feel like our numbers are not the same so oh yeah That's something we have to discuss.

[441] Yesterday, your friend was asking, like, how painful is it really?

[442] That's why we realize how different our experiences are.

[443] I said the first needle is like a six.

[444] And then Monica, her eyes bulge out of her.

[445] And then the second shot is a 10.

[446] And Monica just started laughing and, like, lost her mind.

[447] And then she was like, what is a 10 to you?

[448] Like, what is...

[449] What else is a 10?

[450] What's your bar?

[451] Because I am not...

[452] understanding, because I put the first shot at a 0 .5.

[453] Insane.

[454] And I put the second shot at a 1 .5.

[455] What?

[456] I added a full point.

[457] But I think the second shot is a 2 .8.

[458] So specific.

[459] 2 .8.

[460] Yeah, and I'm going to stick with 0 .5 for a first shot.

[461] Damn.

[462] Because to me, it's uncomfortable for sure.

[463] There's discomfort, but it's not painful.

[464] Where's the dildo for you then?

[465] Okay, I don't love the dildo.

[466] Me neither.

[467] Does she lube it up for you?

[468] Okay.

[469] So much lube.

[470] Yeah, I know.

[471] So.

[472] Sometimes I'm walking down the mall.

[473] I'm like, I'm like worried I have gunk on me. Yep, there's gung.

[474] Loop all over my legs.

[475] I think it's dependent.

[476] Today the dildo was, um, a three and a half.

[477] Like ever.

[478] See, that's insane to me because the dildo is uncomfortable for me. This is TMI, but I don't even wear tampons because tampons are even hard for it.

[479] Like anything that goes.

[480] in me is like hard.

[481] I put on my first tampon when I was 20.

[482] I got that colonoscopy and I had my period and so I had to put on a tampon.

[483] Clearly very sensitive.

[484] But that being said, the dildo for me is like a four.

[485] But the needle is a 10.

[486] Like that is so much more painful to me. It's like 10 dildos.

[487] I mean, I don't know if I would take 10 dildos because that would be way more time than like the one.

[488] But overall, 10 dildos.

[489] Wow.

[490] But then when you gave you.

[491] me my second shot, I thought, it's a 1 .5, it's a 1 .5, it's a 1 .5.

[492] I said that in my head and it actually helped.

[493] Yeah.

[494] It really did.

[495] Kind of just give it less power.

[496] Exactly.

[497] And just tell myself, it's like with sleep, if you have insomnia, which I've dealt with, you tell yourself, like, I'm a great sleeper.

[498] Because the more you talk about the fact that you've been insomnia, the more you have it.

[499] Yeah.

[500] And confirmation bias.

[501] Exactly.

[502] You're looking for the pain.

[503] Yes.

[504] Exactly.

[505] Just like with your text.

[506] But it's like, stop doing that.

[507] One thing I was trying to do this morning was focus on the positive things because there's so many positive things not just with this one dating situation but my whole life right now like this bed is so comfortable get to see monica every day i get to like do this with a friend it is important in those moments it's not just oh i'll feel more hopeful it actually helps you change the neuropathways of your brain chemistry because you're putting more time into the positive things and so it's not as easy for your brain to go and focus and make those negative things bigger yeah which i know sounds like good vibes only like it's not it's really just impactful.

[508] Oh my God, your hat.

[509] What?

[510] Your hat says hormonal.

[511] You've just noticed.

[512] Have you been wearing it every day?

[513] Pretty much.

[514] Like, it's, oh, my God.

[515] Oh, my God.

[516] Also, there's probably not a moment that is more reflective of me. I am so unobservant of physical things.

[517] Very.

[518] It's a joke because, like, I don't know when people have lazy eyes.

[519] There was an incredible person who I went to high school with who had.

[520] a lazy eye and I knew her well and like two years later I was talking about this person and Callie was like oh is she the one with a lazy eye and I was like no and she was like oh okay and then later she was like no that is her she has a lazy eye and it's noticeable and I was like oh my god I never like I'm not observant anyway so I didn't notice I feel like you are though hyper observant on some things I'm very observant to emotion and to feelings but I'm am not like you've been wearing that hat for three days on and off but yes since the beginning yes and actually now I'm realizing because this is probably because I was manic but that first day callie said like oh you're she said something about your hat but I didn't even look at the hat when she said it you were so focused on I mean I have to also say you've been handling all of the technical elements planning elements like you are doing so much.

[521] But it's helpful because it gives me something to do.

[522] I know, but it means you're not focusing on what you need.

[523] And like, it means you have less ability to do that.

[524] And so, and that first night was, like, that was the first day.

[525] It was at night.

[526] There were no lights.

[527] We're doing our shots in here.

[528] Like, with breadcrumbs and like, cookie crumbs.

[529] I told Dax, we recorded our shots for the first episode.

[530] He was like, oh my gosh.

[531] In the attic?

[532] Wow.

[533] He's like, the attic is turning into like real laboratory.

[534] He's done a drug.

[535] test in here.

[536] He likes to do surgeries on people and stuff.

[537] So yeah, so this is a lap.

[538] Okay.

[539] Can give birth here.

[540] We can bring a duel in the out.

[541] That's so sweet.

[542] I was just thinking about again, it's okay that you feel a bit sad like for an hour.

[543] In between wine and spaghetti.

[544] Exactly.

[545] It was.

[546] So it was in between wine and spaghetti.

[547] Fuck that Mediterranean diet.

[548] I can't.

[549] It's not happening.

[550] I'm eating kid cereal right now.

[551] It's like what I really want.

[552] It's like I'm reverting a little bit.

[553] back to 2020 pandemic.

[554] I mean, a lot of crackers.

[555] I have a craving.

[556] Are we like making it up?

[557] We're pretending we have cravings, but we're not pregnant.

[558] But we have cravings?

[559] I don't.

[560] Actually, it's really interesting.

[561] Do you think cravings is hormones?

[562] Don't hormones cause you cravings?

[563] Well, that's true because I get sugar craving during my period.

[564] Me too.

[565] Oh, so maybe it's real.

[566] Okay.

[567] Have you, because you said you like ice cream.

[568] I do.

[569] There's a Italian restaurant called Antico Nuevo.

[570] Have you been there?

[571] No. It's incredible.

[572] And they make these homemade ice creams.

[573] There's different kinds, but they normally have like one or two that have a seasonal fruit.

[574] Like they make a strawberry ice cream with Harry's berries.

[575] It's insane.

[576] I don't know if you've had Harry's berries.

[577] It's a strawberry in California.

[578] I don't understand it.

[579] Wow.

[580] It's so sweet.

[581] And like if you live here, you pretty much know about Harry's berries.

[582] And if you go to the farmer's market, they're sold out immediately.

[583] But anyway, they make an ice cream with Harry's berries.

[584] They make one with like an apricot.

[585] Then they have like a cookies and cream.

[586] And it is so.

[587] So good.

[588] And it's just a good restaurant.

[589] So we should go there.

[590] We should go.

[591] That's Mediterranean.

[592] It's Mediterranean Sea touches a lot of different places that have ice cream.

[593] You ran yesterday.

[594] And you got worried.

[595] You just ran.

[596] I saw the hole.

[597] Like you were so confident running down the driveway.

[598] And then the like look of terror.

[599] We went to Rob's house because he has COVID.

[600] And I had to drop off an oxymeter to him that checks your oxygen.

[601] And he lives right by me, and we were on our way to the wine bar.

[602] So I drove by and I parked, hopped out and, like, ran to the front door like I normally would.

[603] But then I was like, I'm not supposed to exercise.

[604] And I just exercised.

[605] That was a big exercise.

[606] You bounced.

[607] Maybe eight or nine bounces.

[608] I got out of breath just walking up to the attic.

[609] I know.

[610] And I'm usually sporty.

[611] But I've been like really, even I do breath work meditation, which I'm going to be told is bad or whatever.

[612] But whatever, I don't want to know.

[613] No. I know.

[614] But because I'm holding my breath a lot.

[615] You know, so sometimes people are like, but again, I don't think it in.

[616] No, that's about oxygen to the baby.

[617] Yes, exactly.

[618] There's no baby.

[619] There's no baby.

[620] There's a lot of eggs.

[621] There's no baby.

[622] There's eggs, but no baby.

[623] Are you having baby dreams?

[624] No. Wow.

[625] Tell me about that.

[626] She's been dreaming a lot about the dogs, which again, because I'm taking care of them, and they really need me. Yeah.

[627] They need me to feed them, and they know I feed them, and they follow me around all day.

[628] And then sometimes I'm, like, so excited they're out.

[629] And sometimes I'm like, guys, Let me eat.

[630] Like when you came over and I was like, I'm just so, they're very needy right now.

[631] It's been a weird, again, rehearsal.

[632] It's a rehearsal.

[633] The conversation with Emily has helped me not judge myself when I do need a little break.

[634] And when I do feel there's too many people who need me, even if they're dogs.

[635] This is just good life advice for whoever you are in whatever stage of life.

[636] It's okay to say there are too many people and things asking for me right now and I can't meet.

[637] I can't meet those needs.

[638] And it's boundaries.

[639] Right?

[640] It's like 100 % boundaries.

[641] I will say that I feel better now than I did when I walked in.

[642] Oh my God.

[643] Savor that.

[644] Yeah.

[645] You did that.

[646] No, you did that.

[647] No, you did that.

[648] No, you did that.

[649] I was just like here to make space and you, I think, were able to process a lot of things and feelings and new information.

[650] And you did that.

[651] Look at you.

[652] Oh, my gosh.

[653] You're such a good cheerleader.

[654] Is that a Pisces thing?

[655] I don't.

[656] Maybe.

[657] You were the cheerleader.

[658] I would never.

[659] I mean, would you ever.

[660] Trust me. I was a synchronized swimmer.

[661] I could.

[662] do it because if you fall in the water, you don't know this?

[663] Yeah.

[664] But I never flew because I have long legs.

[665] I'm too long.

[666] So I would be under and I would make people fly.

[667] Okay, then you are supporting people.

[668] Yeah, but under, if they fall, they just fall in the water.

[669] It's not that bad.

[670] It's not that bad.

[671] You're a synchronized swimmer.

[672] It was.

[673] Varsity Man. You guys had a team.

[674] We did.

[675] At your school.

[676] Yes.

[677] Synchronized swimming.

[678] But I started when I was young and then I stopped because it was demonic.

[679] It is psycho.

[680] There should be a Netflix show about the bullying, the drama.

[681] No. And like the lack of resources.

[682] It's very unregulated would be what I would tell you.

[683] I had a dysfunctional childhood.

[684] Synchronized swimming, fucked me up more.

[685] Like the relationship that our coach had with us was insane.

[686] Sounds like cheerleading.

[687] Yes.

[688] Like competition cheerleading.

[689] Yes.

[690] A lot of drama.

[691] And you're not supposed to have fun.

[692] Like it's like so disciplined.

[693] First we were at this first pool where like no one gave a shit about us and we were like the worst.

[694] It was great.

[695] We had so much fun because we would never win anything.

[696] And then they moved us to the more serious pool.

[697] They were the best team in Montreal.

[698] And then it was psycho panic attacks.

[699] And then I quit.

[700] But then I did it again in university at McGill.

[701] And then we did varsity.

[702] And it was so great.

[703] This is brand new info.

[704] Oh my God.

[705] You know I like don't really know how to swim.

[706] Wait.

[707] What?

[708] Well, I do.

[709] Actually, I had this thought, this is a ding, ding, ding.

[710] Because I had this thought on my drive here when I was feeling, oh my God.

[711] My body sucks.

[712] It doesn't make eggs.

[713] I can't swim.

[714] I can't ride a bike.

[715] I can't, like, do anything.

[716] I'm, like, dysfunctional.

[717] But I'm over that.

[718] You were thinking about that?

[719] Well, because I was like, what the fuck is going on?

[720] All these normal things that people can do, like ride bikes and swim and make eggs?

[721] Why can't I do it?

[722] I can't drive.

[723] This morning when you came in, I was like, man, Monica's so cool.

[724] She just has a car.

[725] Like, she just, like, drives.

[726] Okay.

[727] She's, like, getting coffee and, like, she can do it with one hand.

[728] And I'm like, I can't.

[729] I can't drive.

[730] I'm 35 years old.

[731] Liz.

[732] It's not normal.

[733] No. I'm just telling you I can synchronize swim.

[734] Wow, great skill to have as a 35 -year -old adult.

[735] It doesn't help me in any way.

[736] I can't even live in L .A. Because of that, it's like caused me a lot of issues.

[737] Listen to me. Listen, stop.

[738] It's not that you can't drive.

[739] It's that you didn't learn.

[740] Same with you in swimming and riding a bike.

[741] No, I learned how to swim.

[742] Like, I cannot drown.

[743] But I'm just not good at swimming and I'm not confident.

[744] that I cannot drown.

[745] I think that's more what it is.

[746] Yeah.

[747] It's just that I haven't swam in so many years.

[748] When I get in the pool, I just, like, sit on the side or I sit in a hot tub.

[749] Yes.

[750] So I have lost full confidence that I know how.

[751] Yeah.

[752] And then riding my bike was the same thing.

[753] We went to Oh, hi, my girlfriends.

[754] There's this cute bike path that, like, takes you into town.

[755] Our friend Eric was like, let's take the bikes.

[756] And I was like, do I know how to ride a bike?

[757] I haven't ridden a bike in 15 years.

[758] They say it's like riding a bike, but is that made up?

[759] And it was half and half.

[760] I did write it.

[761] I rode it into town.

[762] But then I did have a little almost crash.

[763] Again, I would think driving is the same way.

[764] If you stop driving for 15 years, would you be a little shaky?

[765] Of course.

[766] Come on.

[767] Again, I don't know how to drive.

[768] I don't even know what the pedals do.

[769] But I feel like you would be like, oh, whoa.

[770] In like language, right?

[771] Like, French is my first language.

[772] Yeah.

[773] And when I go back to Quebec, I sound like a prehistoric Neanderthal.

[774] Like, I can't really speak it.

[775] I forget words or like, again, because I'm thinking in English.

[776] And then a week or two in, it's all back.

[777] It's like riding a bike.

[778] It's like riding a bike.

[779] But again, when I go back, I'm like, oh, my God, I literally can't speak my first language.

[780] And I will happily help you with swimming because it was a lifeguard.

[781] Like, I did the whole thing.

[782] And it's so much about technique.

[783] With walking, you don't think about, like, there's nothing.

[784] There's gravity, right?

[785] Yeah.

[786] And I actually am better in water than I am on land.

[787] Like, gravity fucks me up.

[788] Anyway, so I've seen a lot of people have exact same fear.

[789] Again, get in the water.

[790] And I'm like, you're using twice as much energy.

[791] Right.

[792] And so you think you're bad at it because you're sinking and you're using all this energy when really actually swimming is about minimizing the amount of energy that you're using to go and propel yourself as much as possible.

[793] It can be confusing because you can think this is why I'm bad at it.

[794] But it's just that you're literally moving in a way that's making you sink more and spend more energy.

[795] And so I'm just saying I'm available if you want to just talk.

[796] As my swim coach.

[797] I would love to.

[798] I would love to.

[799] Oh my God.

[800] It'll be like the needles.

[801] I don't think I'm allowed with my eggs.

[802] Yeah, maybe to jump in.

[803] We should ask.

[804] Can we jump in the water?

[805] Oh, my God.

[806] This is so exciting.

[807] So, we're not.

[808] We're going to wait until after our.

[809] After the egg.

[810] The retrieval.

[811] Yeah, yeah.

[812] So all the eggs don't fall out in the water.

[813] Yeah, that's possible.

[814] That's what my doctor told me. Yeah, it's definitely possible.

[815] Well, I think that's that for our little.

[816] wrap up of day four.

[817] I'm really grateful for you.

[818] This helped so much today.

[819] And I hope that if you're going to do this, find a buddy.

[820] And you don't have to do what we're doing.

[821] You don't have to freeze your eggs at the same time, but have a support.

[822] I agree with that.

[823] Tell them you're going to be needy.

[824] Like, just say it.

[825] I need someone who I can be needy with for these 10 days.

[826] Use them for that.

[827] Like, have it be a safe person.

[828] Oh, my God.

[829] Like, sometimes I think about Callie doing this by yourself.

[830] And I'm like, I feel some guilt.

[831] I would check in with her, but I didn't know.

[832] And I wish I did.

[833] All to say, it's helpful to have friends.

[834] Yes, it is.

[835] Okay.

[836] So we have a really interesting day.

[837] We are going to talk to two people who've experienced some fraud in the fertility world.

[838] Fertility fraud.

[839] It's a thing.

[840] Yeah, it's a thing.

[841] We're going to learn all about it.

[842] First, we have Eve Wiley, who is awesome.

[843] She also was recommended.

[844] to us by Doff Fox.

[845] He's sent so many cool people our way.

[846] She's an advocate for legislation and for reform in the fertility space.

[847] And she also has a insane personal story.

[848] Oh, my God.

[849] I feel like it's going to be twisty.

[850] Twisty, turdy, topsy.

[851] I'm excited.

[852] I have a feeling we're going to get deep into it.

[853] So please enjoy Eve Wiley.

[854] Eve, we are so excited to have you.

[855] trigger warning a little bit for anyone going through this process.

[856] We're diving into some of the dirtier, darker sides of it and fraudulent sides.

[857] And you have a personal story that you're going to share with us.

[858] And you're an advocate.

[859] You're doing awesome stuff.

[860] And you have so much to talk to us about.

[861] So can we dive into your personal story first?

[862] Okay.

[863] So I am from a really small town in East Texas.

[864] It's 5 ,000 people.

[865] It is in the middle of nowhere, country town.

[866] Yeah.

[867] And this is back in the 80s.

[868] And my parents were struggling with infertility.

[869] And so they went to their doctor, Dr. Kim McMorries, who is my mom's OB, and he recommended that they look into donor conception with a donor.

[870] So he provided them with this donor list, and this is back in the 80s.

[871] So it's not like now where you can shop and add the cart.

[872] Is that a thing?

[873] Oh, it's all a cart menu now.

[874] Read me a fairy tale story.

[875] Let me see your baby pictures for a donor.

[876] It is wild how specific you can get, but they're still technically anonymous.

[877] So this was this sheet of paper, one line, donor number, physical characteristics, level of education, blood type, and then interest.

[878] It's like a Raya profile.

[879] But also, like, I can't even imagine getting this, like going through the throes of infertility.

[880] Yes.

[881] And getting to that point where you are like, I'm going to pick a donor, but I don't know who the biological father's going to be.

[882] And the only way I'm going to pick them is by off this sheet of paper.

[883] Yeah.

[884] It sounds like a lot of pressure, right?

[885] Exactly.

[886] So they did.

[887] They went over it.

[888] They circled a bunch.

[889] And then they finally circled 106 and started and wrote this one.

[890] My mom went through, counted it up.

[891] I think it was like nine or ten insemination.

[892] So every month, go in, defrost the sperm, go through the whole thing, right?

[893] And then finally, I was born.

[894] Now, my dad also had second infertility male factor.

[895] So there was also two things going on there.

[896] Okay.

[897] And so I was born.

[898] And then they were immediately pregnant again.

[899] And this time, it was with my dad's biological child.

[900] So what happened with him is he had varicose veins on his testes.

[901] So he had that surgery reversed.

[902] And then my mom thinks it finally just started working.

[903] Wow.

[904] To where he was able to produce viable sperm, y 'all.

[905] My sister and I, we are so different.

[906] We look different.

[907] She's got like this dark hair.

[908] She's got all of skin complexion, brown eyes.

[909] Whoa.

[910] And I was this little toehead, blue -eyed little girl.

[911] I mean, just everybody told me I was adopted.

[912] You know, you have that genetic predisposition of, like, wanting to know if wilderness is what it's called, of really identifying with your genetic identity.

[913] So I didn't have that.

[914] But then my dad passed away when I was seven.

[915] Oh, my gosh.

[916] And it was hard.

[917] I mean, he's seven years old.

[918] You know, you're just really grasping that concept of what is death, right?

[919] Oh, my gosh.

[920] I still don't have a good grasp on it.

[921] And I really empathize with my mom because, you know, what do you say to your child that's don't or conceived?

[922] well, that's not your real dad because donor conception and we used to, I mean, it's just, it was too much.

[923] But in that moment, she realized that my little sister has a whole other set of issues, like heart conditions, that she now has to have a heart echo for.

[924] That's how he passed.

[925] From cardiomyopathy.

[926] Wow.

[927] And so she was wondering with me, well, what do you need to worry about?

[928] Exactly.

[929] Wait, and so, but you didn't know.

[930] She hadn't told you, right?

[931] I had no idea at this point.

[932] Okay.

[933] And my mom, being a nurse, really saw the vow.

[934] you of that need to know your medical history.

[935] Yeah.

[936] In that moment, from that time on, she started collecting stories, trying to, and this was like Yahoo chat days, you know, this is not the Google let me know, and trying to find that information out, because when they signed this contract, this was an anonymous sperm donor.

[937] Right.

[938] All we had was donor 106.

[939] So years go by, I'm 16 years old, small town, my mom's a school nurse at our high school.

[940] Oh, my gosh.

[941] And I got away with nothing.

[942] Which is why I would get on her email And I would go through her emails And I could delete any emails coming through Like, oh, maybe I didn't do too good on a test That's hilarious Or I wanted like all the juicy tea Within my cohort Yeah I wanted to know everything Hot gosh Get in those emails I was seeing these ones from California Cryobank and it kept saying sperm And donor conception And at first it wasn't weird Because basically grew up on a farm I'm like, is my mom buying bull sperm for my grandfather for his charlay cattle?

[943] Like, what's going on?

[944] So I start clicking and reading.

[945] I'm like, oh.

[946] And then I get to the bottom of one.

[947] And it has my birth date.

[948] And it says my daughter doesn't know.

[949] I want more information on her.

[950] No. Oh.

[951] Y 'all, this was late at night.

[952] And it was like, oh, shit.

[953] How old are you at this point?

[954] 16.

[955] Oh.

[956] I mean, it ended up being a good thing finding out because now all those times that people told me I was adopted.

[957] All of those things where I don't look like anyone in my family, I don't really act like anyone in my family.

[958] It all made sense.

[959] It wasn't just in my head at this point.

[960] Yeah, it's almost like gaslighting in some way.

[961] It's not on purpose.

[962] Like I know she was trying to protect you, but you're like, I know something's wrong, but nobody's validating.

[963] And you think you're the crazy one, right?

[964] Well, and that's the thing is I always knew there was a secret.

[965] I just didn't know that I was that secret.

[966] People who are adopted, people who are born from donor conception, and they aren't told.

[967] I think that that is how they feel.

[968] If you think about it, like your parents treat you differently, it's not conscious.

[969] It is subconsciously.

[970] My mom was pushing me towards a career, towards interest that reflected who she thought my father was.

[971] Really?

[972] So where my sisters were all into, like, science and different types of, like, sports and things like that, she pushed me towards tennis.

[973] That was his interest.

[974] And towards arts and literature and politics.

[975] Wow.

[976] But I liked science.

[977] Yeah.

[978] And so it's interesting to see those subconscious patterns of relations, but then also how people operate around a family secret.

[979] Wow.

[980] It changes the dynamics of it.

[981] Absolutely.

[982] What were things that once you knew the secret was out, that you were like, that was weird?

[983] What did you internalize from all of that?

[984] I noticed that she would really go to great links to tell the story of my father and how much he loved me and how I was his favorite.

[985] And so really trying to build that connection.

[986] Yes, that I wouldn't necessarily remember.

[987] Interesting.

[988] She was trying to fill in the gaps with that.

[989] So it is interesting just to see those dynamics because my mom was carrying that secret.

[990] I have so much compassion for her.

[991] They did what they absolutely needed to do.

[992] And then knowing that you have to kind of carry this secret for you, it's like so heavy.

[993] It is.

[994] And the doctor told her, do not tell her.

[995] She does not need to know that she's donor conceived.

[996] Y 'all, that is so wrong.

[997] Your genetic identity should never be a secret.

[998] Yes.

[999] I mean, it is quite literally the only thing that you are born with, your genetics.

[1000] And so to have someone marginalize that.

[1001] And I would like to think that we know more now.

[1002] We have more awareness around this and more understanding and compassion.

[1003] So I hope that that narrative is changing.

[1004] But he told them it's not important.

[1005] You're their parents.

[1006] And then for her to have to carry that secret and then to no longer have that support system with my dad.

[1007] Yes.

[1008] But she was building this case for years and years and years.

[1009] And she kept everything.

[1010] She printed out every conversation.

[1011] There's a group called Single Mothers by Choice, donor sibling registry, all of those Yahoo chat rooms.

[1012] And emails, she would print them off and put them in this big green folder.

[1013] And her plan was when I turned 18, she was going to hand it to me. Oh, my.

[1014] That night, I did not wake her up.

[1015] But the next morning, she was getting out of the shower.

[1016] And I just, like, burst in there.

[1017] I was like, I can't.

[1018] I can't believe you went through the night.

[1019] Oh, I was like Yahooing.

[1020] I can't even call it Googling.

[1021] I was Yahooing words, making sure I understood.

[1022] Oh, and you had to do it on Yahoo. That's terrible.

[1023] What if Yahoo had won the race?

[1024] Like, we would be saying Yahooing.

[1025] So I went in there in the morning, and I'd practiced this.

[1026] I was like, what are the questions I want to know?

[1027] And just like burst in.

[1028] And I was like, Mom, I know Doug is not my dad.

[1029] And then it was like that slow turn.

[1030] And she's like, what are you talking?

[1031] talking about.

[1032] And then I just told her everything.

[1033] She's bawling.

[1034] I'm like, mom, it's okay.

[1035] 16 -year -old me just found out the secret.

[1036] But also, there was this part of me that was like, oh my God, I still have a dad.

[1037] And I want to find him.

[1038] It never even occurred to me that the sperm donor, my biological father, he may not even want to know me, which is the case for a lot of donors.

[1039] I mean, now they're saying 90 % of donors are open to contact.

[1040] But back then, it was, You know, there's a little more stigma attached to it than there is now.

[1041] So I kind of felt bad to say that I was excited.

[1042] And it was just that, what is it like to have a real dad?

[1043] Because my dad passed away, you know, that whole thing.

[1044] But we talked through the whole thing.

[1045] She explained everything.

[1046] And I understood it.

[1047] And I was very compassionate.

[1048] I mean, I understand how hard it is now being a mother has made me even more empathetic towards her.

[1049] I'm sure.

[1050] Did you have any jealousy towards your sister?

[1051] Learning that also she's not your biological sister is also part of the, And also, where she gets to be the daughter of my mom and dad.

[1052] Like, there's just a lot.

[1053] There is a lot.

[1054] And you just hit on a really important point.

[1055] My existence, being donor conceived, it can feel very sterile because my parents had never met each other.

[1056] I was not born out of a moment of passion.

[1057] It was a very sterile environment.

[1058] If she's looking and constantly scanning, she doesn't know who my biological father is.

[1059] There is no connection.

[1060] She just has me. And I think with my father passing away, Doug, there wasn't as much of that jealousy.

[1061] And in fact, it was reversed because what I didn't anticipate is sitting my little sister down and telling her that she's my half -sister.

[1062] Right.

[1063] And what I didn't see coming was her crying and saying, well, at least you have a dad.

[1064] Oh, wow.

[1065] And that was like, oh, 16 -year -old, naive, like, egocentric Eve.

[1066] But you're also a child.

[1067] Yes, that's a lot.

[1068] It's a lot.

[1069] emotions, you're carrying your sister's emotions.

[1070] You're not even equipped to hold all of that.

[1071] Even your frontal lobe isn't even fully developed enough.

[1072] And that's a good point to you, because what I constantly see is people who are adopted or who are a donor conceived, that they do carry that burden, that emotional labor of having to really work through the pain of their parent infertility and how that affects them and their relationships.

[1073] And even though it's centered around the child that grows up to be an adult, there are so many wounds that my existence was supposed to fix.

[1074] But in a lot of ways, it doesn't get fixed.

[1075] It's just a band -aid.

[1076] That part with my sister was hard.

[1077] We worked through all of it.

[1078] And then we kind of just became like, you know, a team of figuring out, who's my daddy?

[1079] Yeah.

[1080] I feel like if I sat down with my brother and I was like, so you're my half -brother.

[1081] For one, you'd be like, I knew it.

[1082] And then also, if he said that to me, I would be like, no, that's still my dad, though.

[1083] I would have so much conflicting thoughts.

[1084] No, that's still my dad.

[1085] Your dad is still my dad.

[1086] Yeah, I also have this other thing going on.

[1087] And that's hard to tease apart because he is my dad.

[1088] Yeah.

[1089] I feel like that's getting removed all of a sudden.

[1090] There is a sense of loss and grief that I really had to pay attention to you because that changed my narrative.

[1091] And it was conflicting and I had opposite feelings about this because in one hand, there was a loss and a grief with me being that secret and him no longer being.

[1092] my real dad, but then also, who is my real dad?

[1093] Yes.

[1094] And I was kind of happy to go on that journey to figure out who that was.

[1095] And those are really opposing feelings right there.

[1096] So then I'm 18, and my mom and I, I like read through these letters.

[1097] They are hilarious.

[1098] We're like writing doctors.

[1099] The donor was part of the Baha 'i faith here in Los Angeles.

[1100] We were contacting them.

[1101] I mean, I'm like, how many like blonde dudes are in your...

[1102] Ray Wilson.

[1103] I mean, yeah.

[1104] I know, exactly.

[1105] I mean, there's like two, right?

[1106] We're writing them like, hey, does anybody fit this description?

[1107] And we're just going all sorts of detective.

[1108] And I contacted California Crybank, but first they needed my mom's medical records.

[1109] So I went to my mom's doctor, and I made this appointment.

[1110] And I was like, no, I'm going to go in and do this myself.

[1111] I have questions.

[1112] You know, I just want to understand a little more.

[1113] So I go and I wait forever, the doctor cancels the appointment.

[1114] But the nurse, I have the signed consent, and I leave with my mom's records.

[1115] And so I send those to California Carobank because they have to verify the purchasing records.

[1116] So in my mom's notes, it says donor 106 on day 12.

[1117] This is the old conception that took.

[1118] California Carobank looked at their purchasing records confirming that that doctor did buy that donor.

[1119] And so that was kind of it.

[1120] That's how they confirmed it.

[1121] So then they sent donor 106 this letter to update his medical records.

[1122] Realistically, I wanted to know who he was and I want to know my biological father, but also I really wanted my medical information.

[1123] That's the least I'm asking for from my biological father is my medical information.

[1124] Everybody needs that.

[1125] It took him about a year, and they found him.

[1126] I had this letter ready to go, and I sent it to them through email, and then they forwarded it to the donor, and his name is Steve, and y 'all, he is amazing.

[1127] He's so wonderful.

[1128] He responded back, and so we were communicating like that for a little bit, and then we started emailing on our own and calling, and it was just so easy.

[1129] I don't know if it's because he is who he is.

[1130] I am who I am.

[1131] He is just this warmth of energy and come what may. And he's just a teddy bear, just a lovable teddy bear.

[1132] And was just so open.

[1133] He flew down to Austin.

[1134] I was living in Austin at the time.

[1135] And we met for the first time.

[1136] And it was easy.

[1137] There was nothing weird or awkward about it.

[1138] Were you like, yeah, this makes sense?

[1139] It's like it absolutely does.

[1140] I'm looking at pictures of his social children, the ones that he has with his wife.

[1141] And I'm like, yeah, we look alike, we act alike, same interests, and, you know, totally made sense.

[1142] This is 2007.

[1143] So we never really thought, like, hey, we need a DNA test because we look like the cryobank says I'm yours.

[1144] We're good to go.

[1145] And it was just working.

[1146] I started calling him dad.

[1147] We started saying, I love you.

[1148] I mean, this is my dad.

[1149] He officiated my wedding.

[1150] Every single person in our wedding was bawling.

[1151] Of course.

[1152] And I thought it was because how wonderful and beautiful this was.

[1153] I later found out that the bartenders were mixing regular vodka with, like, deep -beddy grapefruit vodka.

[1154] They thought the grapefruit vodka was a mixer.

[1155] Oh, everyone was shipping.

[1156] It was great.

[1157] I mean, I'm looking at that.

[1158] I'm like, this is amazing.

[1159] Everybody knows how special this is until they can't stand up.

[1160] And I'm like, oh, my God.

[1161] We need pizza now.

[1162] That's hilarious.

[1163] I'm sure during the ceremony, it was still because of the emotions.

[1164] It just like, it just elevated it.

[1165] Yeah, 20 minutes later, it kicks in.

[1166] It was really tense.

[1167] But it was so sweet.

[1168] And his kids came, my brothers and sisters and his wife.

[1169] And it was very special.

[1170] And then my husband and I, Blake, then we had children.

[1171] And my kids call him Papa.

[1172] And he visits.

[1173] We do holidays together with my mom, by the way.

[1174] Yeah.

[1175] So that was fun.

[1176] Hey, Mom, this is dad.

[1177] Y 'all, the kid together.

[1178] You never met.

[1179] Yeah, what's their relationship like?

[1180] Y 'all, they couldn't be more different if they tried.

[1181] Really?

[1182] I mean, here's my mom, little East Texas, like small town, kind of a little sheltered.

[1183] And then here's Steve, who writes over the poet Rumi and travels the world and does really cool stuff.

[1184] So it's just funny to see that, but they have a beautiful relationship now.

[1185] That's lovely.

[1186] And I think the most awkward part about the whole experience was them meeting because us meeting was easy.

[1187] Then we had Hutton, that's my son.

[1188] he's a bright from the get -go, he started having medical issues and he had pyloroxin.

[1189] We were doing all these exploratory surgeries with him.

[1190] And you look at him now and you're like, what?

[1191] I mean, he's so typically developed.

[1192] I mean, he's doing awesome.

[1193] But for about four years, we had a whole team of doctors in Dallas.

[1194] They had no clue what was going on.

[1195] Wow.

[1196] So I was somewhere and I was talking to someone who works at Dell Children's and telling them, you know, what was going on with Hutton.

[1197] And they were like, hey, we had.

[1198] have this functional medicine doctor.

[1199] When we don't know what's going on, we call him.

[1200] I mean, you could have told me to go out seldom naked, stand upside down and do some, I would have done anything to figure out, you know, what's going on with my kid.

[1201] By the time he was four, he had been under 12 times for some sort of exploratory surgery.

[1202] And to have these doctors consistently tell me you're a first time mom, you know, maybe you're exaggerating some of these symptoms.

[1203] I'm like, I mean, more gas lighting.

[1204] Yeah.

[1205] Like, the kid's throwing up every hour and a half.

[1206] And he didn't have real food to, he was four.

[1207] And he was having all these, like, crazy allergies to food.

[1208] It was wild.

[1209] We go in, and this doctor, he's like, I need all of you to do 23 and me plus health.

[1210] So we all do.

[1211] And what he was trying to do is he was trying to get the genetic variance of me and Blake and Hutton to see, is this an absorption issue?

[1212] Because it kind of made sense, right?

[1213] An absorption issue.

[1214] Nothing else medically was working.

[1215] Around the same time, maybe a little bit before my sister had given.

[1216] given me an ancestry test.

[1217] So I had sent that off and I have an uncle that's really into genealogy and, you know, it's just like a fun Christmas party favorite thing to you.

[1218] I sit down with this doctor.

[1219] Our profiles are back.

[1220] And he has not laid eyes on Hutton.

[1221] It's just me and this doctor.

[1222] And he goes, so your son has celiac disease.

[1223] I was like, what?

[1224] Y 'all, I didn't know what celiac disease was.

[1225] Yeah.

[1226] So then he goes on to tell me about all these like autoimmune disorders and how it's under that umbrella.

[1227] And then he ends it with anteditary.

[1228] So someone, you know, someone in your family has it.

[1229] It's like, no, pretty sure I would know.

[1230] I've never even heard of this.

[1231] No one's talked about this.

[1232] So we get Hutton, straightened out, he's doing great, all of that stuff.

[1233] I don't know if you're familiar with the platform, 23 and me, I always knew from talking to California Cryibank that I had half siblings, but they had told me that I was one of the older ones.

[1234] So in my head at this time, I was like, man, they're probably like 17, 18.

[1235] If they even know their donor conceived, they're probably not looking.

[1236] Right.

[1237] I was just learning about these platforms.

[1238] I didn't know what a synomorgan was.

[1239] I didn't know how to read these websites.

[1240] When you are connected with someone and it gives you your predicted relationship, it doesn't come out and say, hey, this is a half -brother or, hey, this is a half -sister.

[1241] It'll say this could be a close family to first cousin is what it said.

[1242] And then in that, the synomorgans of the degree of relatedness that you share with your DNA to that person, you can have all these predicted relationships.

[1243] This could be an aunt, a half -siblings, a first cousin.

[1244] You know, there's a lot of not a perfect science.

[1245] It's like a spectrum kind of.

[1246] Yeah.

[1247] Okay.

[1248] I mean, I had been so focused on Hutton being so sick.

[1249] I wasn't looking for my half -siblings.

[1250] So I kept getting these emails and it was like, you have a new match.

[1251] First cousin, first cousin.

[1252] And finally, I was like, well, that doesn't really make sense.

[1253] My mom has two brothers.

[1254] They don't have biological children.

[1255] Steve, dad, he has two siblings.

[1256] They don't have biological children.

[1257] Oh my God, did I find another family secret?

[1258] Tell my mom about this.

[1259] And she was like, hey, Eve, those could be your half -siblings.

[1260] And I was like, why?

[1261] How?

[1262] And then we kind of went through the whole thing of what I just went through of who's connected.

[1263] And so I reached out to them.

[1264] And which, by the way, how do you start that conversation?

[1265] So like, hi, do you want to call me?

[1266] I think I have some really important information.

[1267] I'm not crazy.

[1268] Yeah.

[1269] Not the way I did it.

[1270] Hi, my name is Eve.

[1271] I think I'm your half -sister.

[1272] Here's my cell phone.

[1273] Oh, wow.

[1274] Oh, my God.

[1275] And did they all respond?

[1276] Because if I got that, I'd be like, zero out of ten, don't recommend doing it that way.

[1277] Don't you?

[1278] Oh, my gosh.

[1279] Yeah, they did.

[1280] Really quickly.

[1281] They did.

[1282] And one of them already knew.

[1283] They were done or conceived.

[1284] But then these, you know, here come these red flags.

[1285] So I talked to one.

[1286] He's 13 years older than I am.

[1287] Okay.

[1288] But I'm like, what I don't matter?

[1289] Because I knew who my biological father is.

[1290] Like, that's kind of weird.

[1291] something doesn't make sense there, but it doesn't matter.

[1292] But what I was focusing on was my relationship with dad was very unique.

[1293] I never wanted to project my experience and my relationship on another half -siblings.

[1294] I didn't want them to think that that was a status quo.

[1295] And so I didn't want to be the little cheerleader over here.

[1296] He's so amazing and wonderful and like he's the best that ever.

[1297] Yeah.

[1298] I was having a family reunion.

[1299] This is going to be great if they weren't comfortable with that.

[1300] That's kind.

[1301] I called dad and was like, hey, do 23.

[1302] me, that way y 'all at least have a platform of connection.

[1303] You're on there.

[1304] And then you guys can message and figure out what you want.

[1305] Because what I have noticed is that people who are donor conceived, if they have the recipient parent that was infertile, if they are still alive and they're still really close with them, they're not as willing to really honor that desire to know their biological parent because they feel like it could threaten the relationship with their dad.

[1306] without openly recognizing that, hey, there's space for everybody.

[1307] And it depends on how the parents react, right?

[1308] Because we aren't children anymore.

[1309] We are now adults.

[1310] And really honoring and respecting that you can have adult conversations and you can have opposite feelings about things.

[1311] I was very aware of that and I didn't want to impose on people.

[1312] He gets his test and he takes it.

[1313] And then I track down this one half brother.

[1314] And I mean, dude's not on social media.

[1315] Red flag.

[1316] I mean, it made it real hard.

[1317] I'm like, I like figure out where he lives.

[1318] I'm like on the tax appraisal district typing his last name.

[1319] You're a PI.

[1320] At this point, yeah, you know how to find people.

[1321] No one's anonymous anymore.

[1322] Yeah.

[1323] Thank you, commercial DNA testing.

[1324] So I finally track him down on LinkedIn.

[1325] And it was kind of the same message.

[1326] It was late at night.

[1327] And he was like, well, I think it would be a little hard to explain to my wife that I'm in bed right now.

[1328] And I need to get out of bed and go call another woman who just contact me on the internet.

[1329] And I was, good man. I was like, that's cool.

[1330] No big deal.

[1331] So I think I'm your half -sister.

[1332] Here's my cell phone number.

[1333] Ten seconds later.

[1334] All right, you have my attention.

[1335] Yes.

[1336] Oh, my God.

[1337] I know.

[1338] So just, you know, just drop that bomb in there.

[1339] It works.

[1340] I'm not patient enough.

[1341] Either am I. I need it.

[1342] So we got this whole thing.

[1343] He's not buying it.

[1344] He is like, I am a dad's.

[1345] I look like him.

[1346] I look like my brother.

[1347] This is so typical.

[1348] When you don't know, your donor conceived.

[1349] And then I feel like I'm the bearer of bad news, right?

[1350] Yeah.

[1351] So I was like, all right, okay, let me just, I'll humor you with this.

[1352] So we get on our computers, we're looking at the thing, close family to first cousins, we're looking up the Cinnomorgans.

[1353] And he's like, well, I think of your first cousin.

[1354] Okay.

[1355] Then tell me about your uncles because your uncle is my biological father.

[1356] And he said, well, I only have one uncle.

[1357] And, oh, he's actually from your area.

[1358] His name is Kim McMorries.

[1359] My world stopped.

[1360] And, In that moment, I knew exactly who that was, because that was the hero in my conception story.

[1361] That was the man who was able to literally get my mom pregnant and give them a baby.

[1362] Oh, my God.

[1363] That was my mom's fertility doctor.

[1364] And for the third time in my life, I'm starting over with, who am I?

[1365] And all of a sudden, my beautiful fairy tale story, with my beautiful family and everything, it wasn't true.

[1366] Again.

[1367] Again.

[1368] I'm so sorry.

[1369] I really am.

[1370] You're sweet.

[1371] Thank you.

[1372] It sucks.

[1373] But it wasn't going to be a happy story because I knew that what I had with dad, Steve, donor 106, was not going to be what I was going to have with my real biological father.

[1374] It was being replaced with something completely different.

[1375] Wow.

[1376] And so in that moment, I really had to decide, I mean, I got two choices here.

[1377] I can pretend like I never figured this out or I'm going to have to come forward with this and I'm going to have to tell everybody.

[1378] I didn't want to do that, but I knew that there was no way that I was going to be able to live my life in an authentic way without transparency and without truth.

[1379] You would just be perpetuating another secret.

[1380] Right.

[1381] That my kids would feel.

[1382] It no longer became just about me. My child suffered because I didn't know the truth.

[1383] Stay tuned for more if you dare.

[1384] answered by better help.

[1385] Unfortunately, life doesn't come with a user manual.

[1386] Man, that'd be so great if it did.

[1387] So when life isn't working for you, it's normal to feel stuck.

[1388] And I know that when I'm navigating my life challenges, whether it's career or a new relationship or thinking about becoming a parent.

[1389] Oh, boy, yeah.

[1390] And all the steps involved with that, therapy is so helpful because it can help you challenge the emotions that you're feeling, understand yourself and other people.

[1391] It's just so great.

[1392] Yeah, I feel like 90 % of our conversations start with in therapy.

[1393] My therapist says, it's so, so helpful.

[1394] And BetterHelp is awesome because it has connected over 3 million people with licensed therapists.

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[1432] My mom was upstairs when I found this out.

[1433] You're in your mom's house?

[1434] No, we were on vacation.

[1435] We're going to Colorado.

[1436] God.

[1437] And my in -laws were there.

[1438] And my sister was there.

[1439] I struggled with this part because just imagine telling your mom, and this is a trigger warning, medically raped.

[1440] Yes.

[1441] And she's figuring us out 30 years later by a man that she trusted.

[1442] And then having to go to my dad, Steve, and tell him, I'm not his real biological daughter.

[1443] And then me having to really process this whole thing of my existence is called, so many people, the people that I love so much, so much pain.

[1444] And there's not a therapist or a doctor that specializes in something like this.

[1445] There's not a blog.

[1446] There's a podcast now.

[1447] And to really like find that common ground of who has been through this before.

[1448] And so I had to do a lot of internal processing around genetic identity and just around identity and narrative therapy to separate myself from this in a healthy way to get through it because the deception around my conception has hurt so many people.

[1449] And it's not like something I did that I am reaping the consequences of something that I did.

[1450] I'm just like the bystander in it.

[1451] And that was another thing.

[1452] I, you know, with donor conception stuff, felt kind of like a product.

[1453] They shopped to get me that type of thing.

[1454] So it really kind of fed this weird thing too of like, I'm a product here.

[1455] Oh my gosh.

[1456] So it was bad.

[1457] I mean, I went upstairs and they were watching I, Tonya.

[1458] And so I like, go out to mom, I need to talk to you.

[1459] She's like, what?

[1460] Can you wait to the the movie's over.

[1461] I was like, no, I can't.

[1462] They're like, is everything okay?

[1463] And it was just, it was being 16 again.

[1464] Steve's not my biological father.

[1465] She's like, what?

[1466] And my poor in -laws are like, what?

[1467] It's happening right now.

[1468] Oh, my God, the trauma that you've got.

[1469] It's so much.

[1470] There is a lot of trauma around it.

[1471] And I have never seen anybody in shock before.

[1472] My mom was in shock to the point where my husband was like, do we need to call an ambulance?

[1473] She's shaking.

[1474] She's asking the same questions.

[1475] She's not retaining any of that information.

[1476] So then my father -in -law stands up and he's like, I'll go make a drink.

[1477] Does anybody else want one?

[1478] I'm like, just bring it all in here at this point.

[1479] It took days.

[1480] She was coming up with everything.

[1481] He wouldn't do this.

[1482] He is a good Christian man. He is a pillar in our community.

[1483] He would never do this.

[1484] There is another explanation for this.

[1485] So she really knew him.

[1486] Yes.

[1487] We were from a small town.

[1488] People from, I don't know, upwards of like 90 miles would come to him because when you're in rural America, there's not a hospital.

[1489] She was driving 30, 35 miles for every insemination, for every checkup, for everything.

[1490] The hospital's 30.

[1491] He delivered me. Oh, my.

[1492] Have you all seen that picture?

[1493] No. Show us.

[1494] It is wild.

[1495] Here it is right here.

[1496] That's you.

[1497] That's me. And that's my biological father.

[1498] It was always there.

[1499] The answer was always there.

[1500] He's the only one that knew the secret.

[1501] Wow.

[1502] And how many times did he do this?

[1503] Exactly.

[1504] So you're left with all these questions.

[1505] Now I have more questions than I do answers.

[1506] Oh.

[1507] And I'm not getting anywhere close to it.

[1508] So we go through the whole thing.

[1509] I call attorneys.

[1510] They call us back and they're like, so yeah, there's like nothing.

[1511] I'm like, what do you mean?

[1512] There's nothing.

[1513] Like emotional distress.

[1514] I'm like listening to all those things.

[1515] And they're like, there's nothing because we don't have regulations in this industry for the fertility industry.

[1516] Are you kidding?

[1517] There's nothing you could sue him for?

[1518] Nothing.

[1519] I don't have a civil cause of action or.

[1520] a criminal cause of action.

[1521] You have informed consent issues.

[1522] My parents consented to the procedure just not to the reproductive material because there wasn't an informed consent.

[1523] Even though I have the medical records, he had destroyed his.

[1524] So there was nothing to enter into discovery to compare it.

[1525] Oh my God.

[1526] You have a seven -year statute of limitations in Texas.

[1527] Also, standard level of care.

[1528] We were never going to be able to get around the 10 -year medical board liability act.

[1529] most discovery rules are about two years.

[1530] No discovery rule.

[1531] What's a discovery rule?

[1532] What does that mean?

[1533] So whenever you figure it out, you have two years.

[1534] So with medical malpractice claims, you have two years to file that complaint.

[1535] Yeah.

[1536] Oh my God.

[1537] So we didn't have that.

[1538] So then I start to, you know, really dig into this more.

[1539] And touching back on that narrative therapy part, I had to find a purpose in the pain because I had no control over how I was born.

[1540] I had no control of the trauma that my family had endured around this.

[1541] And you.

[1542] And me. And to really deeply process that my existence was that.

[1543] That's so hard.

[1544] So I had to really work in that narrative therapy piece.

[1545] And I didn't start it.

[1546] But I had the control to figure out what I was going to do with it.

[1547] I didn't want to come forward.

[1548] That is so impressive.

[1549] I just want to take a second for, like, that's so brave and so impressive and, like, so strong.

[1550] It feels like every time that you went through the trauma of learning new information.

[1551] Like you really did always turn it into this kind of sense of responsibility for others.

[1552] Like, did you feel like there was a greater purpose for this to be happening to you and what you were going to do with it?

[1553] Absolutely.

[1554] And I really think that I pulled that strength for my mom because I grew up watching her fight her way out of all kinds of unfavorable circumstances.

[1555] And so I think that that was just something I could do.

[1556] She could not fight this fight.

[1557] I felt like I had to, but it also felt like you got to name it to tame it.

[1558] And the only way to heal it is you have to feel it.

[1559] I could not compartmentalize this.

[1560] And even though I knew I'd get a lot of backlash, and I knew the community would not support me. I knew the community would support him.

[1561] I still wanted to do it anyway.

[1562] Oh, you want to read something else real quick?

[1563] Should I read it aloud?

[1564] Yes, please.

[1565] There's another doctor in Nacadoches.

[1566] And he posted this on his Facebook.

[1567] There was a woman that wrote a letter to the editor for the local newspaper, and he reposted that.

[1568] this is what he said.

[1569] I wasn't there in 1987, but I worked side by side with many patients with Dr. McMorries for the last 15 years.

[1570] Never a problem.

[1571] Has always done an outstanding job and our patients have loved him.

[1572] He has always given great guidance and friendly, compassionate care.

[1573] I think the community has been blessed by his service for as long as I have been in practice in many years more.

[1574] And as a side, that young lady is smart, intelligent, and beautiful, isn't she?

[1575] Must have good genes.

[1576] The issue should not define an outstanding for your career.

[1577] I'm just a doctor that is writing this.

[1578] That is so offensive and disgusting.

[1579] It's horrible.

[1580] I am not talking about being happy to be alive or being grateful to be alive.

[1581] Of course I'm happy to be alive.

[1582] I am talking about the deception around my conception.

[1583] I am talking about consent and how we still have people today that believe that they know better for someone else's body.

[1584] And they get to insert themselves and make those decisions when they shouldn't be able to make those decisions.

[1585] This is about consent.

[1586] A doctor cannot make these decisions for their patients.

[1587] And in two days' age, this right year.

[1588] So Joyce is her name.

[1589] The title is Outrageous Treatment of Respected Doctor.

[1590] And Joyce is just some lady in the community?

[1591] In the community.

[1592] This is her letter to the editor.

[1593] To use the word scandal and fraud in your headlines in the Sunday, May 5th, 2019 paper's article regarding Dr. Kim McMorries is outrageous.

[1594] While I respect Eve Wiley's quest to find her paternal parentage, her inquiries and emotional response was the prime point of your articles.

[1595] What about giving Dr. McMorries a respected, knowledgeable doctor an upstanding Nakadoche's citizen and faithful member of his church for decades and equal and unbiased representation?

[1596] Your coverage of Ms. Wiley's emotional state and angry response to the situation was given much more space than Dr. McMorri's explanation.

[1597] He answered her letter with compassion and gave her the facts that he had, that her mother does not remember the events as Dr. McMorries written records is unfortunate, but it does not constitute fraud.

[1598] Dr. McMorries is an example of the best that the medical profession has.

[1599] He has given his life to caring for women's health issues, and I'm sure if you were to ask a majority of the women in Akadoches, you would find his name mentioned as their doctor or they know of him, and you would be hard -pressed to hear of anything but the highest regard for him.

[1600] He would not jeopardize his patients or his ethical commitment to this profession by doing something that was illegal.

[1601] He was fort -right about his actions and did not disobey the law.

[1602] He explained his action to Ms. Wiley's mother, but obeyed the law of a sperm -bank donor anonymity.

[1603] He covered nothing up.

[1604] At the end of a long and caring career, is happening to him?

[1605] Where is the admiration and appreciation of him as a citizen of Nacadoches by this paper in this article published?

[1606] The fact that he is a conservative Christian man does not fit in the model of media's liberal biased manner nowadays, even in small town America.

[1607] What is his possible rebuttal or explanation that she's so convinced is factually correct?

[1608] Well, so I think that she probably went to the church sermon that his pastor gave about how I'm the devil.

[1609] And And this was the Lord's plan, and he did nothing wrong.

[1610] You know, it's interesting, there's like this media blackout for that area.

[1611] A lot of them won't run it because, I mean, they're afraid.

[1612] He's powerful.

[1613] The church is powerful.

[1614] This pastor's powerful.

[1615] We're seeing people standing up and protecting abusers.

[1616] So I confronted him.

[1617] And I needed it to be in writing.

[1618] And this was at the same time that I had decided if this is not a crime.

[1619] If there is not a civil cause of action in Texas, then I'm going to make it one.

[1620] So I started lobbying and working with legislators to criminalize this fact pattern, and it was the very first state in the United States to make a doctor doing this a sexual assault.

[1621] Yes.

[1622] Wow.

[1623] So in between there, I needed everything in writing because, y 'all, I still had this, like, fairy tale princess of like, well, maybe everything's going to work out.

[1624] And I at least need to extend the olive branch and be like, okay, if this is the thinking at the time, it was wrong.

[1625] Right.

[1626] So maybe you and I on a path to healing can do this together.

[1627] We can rise above this and we can work on this and we can change it.

[1628] And that was the only path I saw.

[1629] And I knew he wouldn't do it.

[1630] But at least I felt like I had to offer it.

[1631] The daddy wound, right?

[1632] Like, I still want a daddy.

[1633] Oh, man. I don't think I've ever met someone this strong to withstand all of that.

[1634] So I want it in writing.

[1635] And I don't want him to know that I have my mom's medical records because I really just want to hear an unbiased account of his.

[1636] An undefensive.

[1637] And non -defensive.

[1638] Like, I don't want to be defensive.

[1639] So I write this, like, certified letter and send in the HIPAA release for him.

[1640] And he writes back.

[1641] And for a man, it doesn't have his medical records.

[1642] He's sure did put on a little smoke show for me. It's just smoking mirrors.

[1643] It's like, this Mylex cup of blah, blah, blah, blah.

[1644] I'm like, I don't need to know what kind of sperm cup thing you used.

[1645] I need to know why you used your own and how I'm related to you.

[1646] Yes.

[1647] So then he launches in the.

[1648] this whole thing about, well, donor 106 wasn't falling correctly.

[1649] I'm like, so I don't know, maybe a good conversation you could have had with your patient to see if she wanted to do anything different.

[1650] He goes, it appears that you may have inherited some of my genetics.

[1651] I don't know, like 50 percent.

[1652] Wait, but I'm just used to talking to people that he can gaslight and talk around.

[1653] And that they trust them, their authorities, they're untouchable, and those are the most scary abusers.

[1654] And so then he says that he went back to his medical school days, which would have been about 12 to 13 years before I was conceived.

[1655] And he was a sperm donor at medical school.

[1656] So he went back and he got his old straws of sperm.

[1657] Okay.

[1658] So then what was your donor number?

[1659] Because it's all de -identified.

[1660] But he couldn't give me a donor number.

[1661] Well, then how did you get them?

[1662] You're just going to go pick up your dusty sperm files and bring him back.

[1663] I mean, you drove them three hours?

[1664] Like, were they in a cooler?

[1665] Like, how did you?

[1666] Lots of holes in the story here.

[1667] So obviously didn't really make sense.

[1668] And then he ended that letter with, it was a pleasure and a gratifying experience for him to be able to deliver a healthy baby girl to my parents.

[1669] And then if I ever wanted to come to Nacadoches and meet with him and his son, my half brother, who's in practice with him.

[1670] Wow.

[1671] Is this the one you talk to?

[1672] No, this is a different one.

[1673] Right, he's the uncle.

[1674] Okay.

[1675] Yeah.

[1676] Very well.

[1677] So, and the story kept changing for him.

[1678] Kind of admitting to it.

[1679] It's like he's saying the sperm didn't thaw well.

[1680] Well, he's dot, dot, dot, ellipsies.

[1681] Like, it's worse than that, right?

[1682] Because he's saying it happened, but I did this for you.

[1683] Right.

[1684] You're welcome.

[1685] Yeah.

[1686] My response was poking holes in his story.

[1687] And then he said that he talked to a former professor, and they were recommending that they mixed sperm.

[1688] Even though in my medical record, it says just donor.

[1689] There are parts that say A .I .N. which is artificial insemination mixture.

[1690] This one specifically said AID, artificial insemination by donor.

[1691] Yeah.

[1692] So there was no mixing.

[1693] And no conversation.

[1694] He's just doing it.

[1695] But let's get real clear about 1980s.

[1696] This is 1986.

[1697] And there's no cell phones.

[1698] You're in rural America.

[1699] My mom's driving 30, 35 minutes.

[1700] If she gets flat tire, you're not going to defrost the sperm and let it go bad.

[1701] You're going to wait until they're in the office, right?

[1702] So she comes in.

[1703] If he does thaw the sperm, sperm out, or if he uses a fresh sample.

[1704] He preps her cervix for an IUI.

[1705] He goes into the next room.

[1706] He masturbates to procure the sample, comes immediately back in and deposits his sperm inside of her, digitally penetrating her.

[1707] And so it just gets like grosser.

[1708] The more you like dig into it, it just growser, grosser and grosser.

[1709] So he never admitted to fresh sperm with me, but in one of my sister's charts, it does say fresh sperm.

[1710] And she's my half sister.

[1711] What do you mean in her?

[1712] Wait, what do you mean?

[1713] In her medical notes, it says, fresh versus frozen sperm.

[1714] So he's done this many, many times.

[1715] There's, including his social children, there's 13 that we know of.

[1716] Those are just the people who have tested.

[1717] Right.

[1718] I mean, I've found people on Facebook that I grew up with and asked them to test.

[1719] They are my half -siblings.

[1720] We have very defining features.

[1721] For starters, I'm the shortest.

[1722] I'm like the little chihuahua.

[1723] All the girls are over six feet.

[1724] The boys are six, two, six, seven.

[1725] We have these, like, eyes and a little like asymmetry right here.

[1726] We have very defining features.

[1727] Okay.

[1728] I want to circle back really, really quick to Joyce.

[1729] Obviously, that's so painful to read and horrifying.

[1730] But I think part of what it is is it is actually incomprehensible to think someone's that monstrous.

[1731] Like, it is really hard for people to wrap their head around the fact that someone could do something like that to someone else.

[1732] And then add on the fact it's someone you know.

[1733] Right.

[1734] And they have those personal connections that is so different from what this other person is reporting.

[1735] Exactly.

[1736] And I think we all have big blind spots when it comes to people in our lives.

[1737] And the truth is anyone can do bad things.

[1738] Like people do bad things.

[1739] And everyone's kind of capable and to shut that off and be like, no, they would never.

[1740] It's like you can't do that.

[1741] And often it is women.

[1742] too, right, you wonder, how could a woman say that to you, right?

[1743] How could women even shame rape victims and perpetrate rape culture?

[1744] And often it's because it's more unbearable to women.

[1745] Of course.

[1746] There are men who do this.

[1747] Right.

[1748] It's a scary truth.

[1749] One thing that I think doesn't get talked a lot about, and I think your story really highlights, is that in 20 % of rapes, the victim will say, and these are man -to -women rapes, the woman will say that the man tried to get her pregnant.

[1750] Often there's reproductive coercion, which is not even a term I think we're even familiar with, where we know sexual coercion, but in 20 % of reported cases of rape, the woman says that he tried to get her pregnant because he refused to put on a condom.

[1751] So insemination, reproduction can be an extension of that sexual coercion.

[1752] It is power, right?

[1753] But I don't know.

[1754] Is it this like narcissistic part?

[1755] Part is it this God complex for all these doctors, which, by the way, I've identified over 60 doctors in the U .S. who have done this.

[1756] There is a survey out of the 80s, 2 % of doctors, 2 % had self -reported using their own sperm instead of a donor sperm.

[1757] And those are just the ones that self -reported it.

[1758] They like, they don't even think it's it.

[1759] They did it.

[1760] So I think you may want to like add a zero to the end of that.

[1761] Like, yes.

[1762] And that's because it's not illegal.

[1763] They can self -report.

[1764] Because they can.

[1765] They can hide behind donor anonymity because anybody can say, why, I'm an anonymous sperm donor.

[1766] No, you're not.

[1767] You're the doctor.

[1768] You're not the donor.

[1769] It comes back to the Larry Nassar thing, right?

[1770] When you go in a doctor's office, like, you're just completely vulnerable.

[1771] You're putting your entire self into the hands of this person and to think that there's nothing that would protect you.

[1772] Especially in the U .S. when everything's so regulated.

[1773] Yes, you can sue anyone.

[1774] You can sue someone giving you a hot coffee.

[1775] For anything.

[1776] But when it comes to this.

[1777] Well, that was a little deeper than they make it seem to be.

[1778] To be fair, she's not really bad birds.

[1779] So I'm Canadian.

[1780] And when I was little, when we play kind of restaurant and, like, my sister would be like, I'm suing you.

[1781] Like, that was our way to, like, I'm suing you.

[1782] And that's what Americans are no friends.

[1783] Because that's all I would see on American cartoons even.

[1784] Well, we did do an episode of Flightless Bird about suing.

[1785] It is such an American thing.

[1786] But you can't sue.

[1787] Because our courts, they will not recognize that have.

[1788] Having a baby is harm.

[1789] Right.

[1790] You see what I'm saying?

[1791] They think it's a gift.

[1792] Rockful birth does not fit into this.

[1793] There is nothing that this fits into.

[1794] You can't quantify it, right?

[1795] You wanted a baby.

[1796] You got a baby.

[1797] But also, if I go buy a Ford pickup and you give me a Toyota, I can sue you for that.

[1798] It's insane.

[1799] I mean, the courts just don't know what to do with it.

[1800] And there's just nothing written because our laws are so far behind.

[1801] But going back to the doctor, what I see in these doctors is a God complex.

[1802] And when you think about it, when God fails and cannot give these people a baby, I play God, I am God, I give them a baby, that's powerful.

[1803] I think it's a lot of different things.

[1804] I think it's the fact that he was making money.

[1805] I think it's the God complex.

[1806] I think it's the narcissism.

[1807] I think that he was tall and good looking and he was smart.

[1808] Who wouldn't want to have my jeans?

[1809] Gross.

[1810] In fact, when I asked him for the medical records, he sent me back this letter that was just like a brag sheet on a social kids and their ironmen and all this kind of stuff.

[1811] I had already tracked down his former nurses and had talked to him.

[1812] He didn't tell me about the melanoma that ran in the family.

[1813] He didn't tell me that one of my brothers had a brain tumor.

[1814] Oh my God.

[1815] He didn't tell me some pretty important things.

[1816] One of the brothers has ulcerative clitis or something, all within that autoimmune disorder thing.

[1817] So from there, it didn't end well, obviously.

[1818] I told him I was coming forward because I also felt this like big sense of, what if I have another half -siblings that has a child or they themselves are struggling with some medical thing?

[1819] And I have the answer for it.

[1820] Yeah.

[1821] It was no longer just about me and about my son.

[1822] If he wasn't going to help me or tell me who my biological half -siblings are, then I'd have to come forward.

[1823] And America loves a good Jerry Springer -Mory story.

[1824] I do.

[1825] Here's here.

[1826] You are the father.

[1827] So, and that's how I found a lot of them.

[1828] And the day I remember, we were actually back in Colorado, and I connected with a half -sister.

[1829] And he was her doctor.

[1830] So fortunately, he did not deliver her kids because she thought he was getting older and wanted to go to a younger doctor.

[1831] But I mean, y 'all, he gave her vaginal exams, breast exams for her.

[1832] Her biological father didn't know.

[1833] And has the audacity to gaslight her.

[1834] She's in the medical cookie.

[1835] It's so bad.

[1836] But when she told me that she lost a little boy that was five months old, my heart broke.

[1837] because what she was describing was Hutton, the stomach issues, all of the things, and it could have been, says, it could have been other things.

[1838] I couldn't help but wonder, oh my God, if we would have figured this out a year before, would her little baby still be here?

[1839] I mean, there are so many unintended consequences to this.

[1840] And then to have another sister, and he delivered both of her children, and she got her DNA results, the confirmation after our brother did an emergency hysterectomy on her.

[1841] So she's in the hospital with the DNA, talking to ICE, and she has to have a follow -up with our brother that just did her surgery, and then finding out her biological father delivered her children.

[1842] This is too much.

[1843] All of her pictures with her, you know, that wonderful, amazing experience is now tainted.

[1844] It's very fucked.

[1845] It gets worse and worse.

[1846] And you're one of the very few people fighting to have these laws change, right?

[1847] Yes.

[1848] And so many people reach out to me and they say, this happened to me. And I didn't really have a person like that.

[1849] And so I was, It was really important for me, and again, probably central to, like, my healing is to be that person to, this is what I did, here are your options.

[1850] What I tell them is you have to decide you can come forward with your story.

[1851] We can work on legislation.

[1852] We can get bills passed.

[1853] Or, unfortunately, the only way to hold them accountable is through a nondisclosure.

[1854] Money will never make this right, but it is one way.

[1855] Because you can pay for therapy.

[1856] You can take time off work.

[1857] But you have to suffer in silence with it.

[1858] That's not complete, y 'all.

[1859] that's not cool.

[1860] And the doctors get to practice.

[1861] So California, when I started in 2018, was the only state that had some sort of fertility fraud legislation.

[1862] And this was stemming out of a 1990 -something case with Teresa Erickson and some doctors that were stealing embryos and selling them.

[1863] Oh my gosh.

[1864] So they had something in place.

[1865] At the same time, Jacoba Ballard from the Netflix documentary, she was working with some of her siblings in Indiana to get a bill passed.

[1866] But it was a civil cause of action instead of a criminal cause.

[1867] So at the same time, Texas and Indiana, a week apart passed.

[1868] So from there, I met this amazing senator, senator book, and she's just such a wonderful person, champion for women's rights.

[1869] And she wanted to do this.

[1870] And I had this case in Florida.

[1871] And they settled with a non -disclosure.

[1872] The son died and had a baby on the way.

[1873] It was this whole thing.

[1874] But I was able to use that story anonymously and go talk to legislators.

[1875] I was like, this pregnant testifying in Florida.

[1876] Oh, God.

[1877] So we got Florida passed and then worked with some victims in Colorado.

[1878] So Colorado was next.

[1879] And then from there, all victim led, Arkansas, Kentucky, Utah, Iowa, we ended up at 10.

[1880] This is where I'm super excited because this timing is so crazy.

[1881] Simulation.

[1882] I mean, as of like two hours ago, we officially have federal fertility fraud legislation.

[1883] And what that means is that we don't have to work state by state anymore.

[1884] Great.

[1885] So Representative Bice out of Oklahoma, she has filed this, and it's a creative bill because it's a sexual assault, which is what this is.

[1886] Yes.

[1887] And it also pulls in like the RICO statute and it offers civil and criminal causes of action as well as prison time.

[1888] I'm really excited to have this kind of blanketed thing.

[1889] Now, I will tell you, I don't think doctors are doing this today.

[1890] I really don't.

[1891] I think that with commercial DNA testing, they would be really stupid, but it still doesn't mean it shouldn't be illegal.

[1892] Exactly.

[1893] And a lot of our legislators, if you were to line them up and say, hey, I want all of you all of you all to tell me how a woman's body works.

[1894] Oh, come on.

[1895] That's what I've been dying for.

[1896] I'm dying for journalists to just ask, like, what does an IUD do?

[1897] Just tell me how birth control works.

[1898] How many fallopian tubes?

[1899] What's the difference between IUI and IVF?

[1900] Exactly.

[1901] Our legislators, unless they are doctors or women who have gone through or their husbands who have gone through fertility treatments, they generally don't know.

[1902] But we are asking them to legislate and to.

[1903] to regulate this.

[1904] And so the other important part of this legislation, bills can do more than just pass and do what they're supposed to do.

[1905] This raises awareness.

[1906] Yes.

[1907] Because I go in there and depending on the office, I mean, I sit down, I'm like, okay, so sperm, sperm, sperm, sperm.

[1908] They're like, oh my God, how do I get this girl out again?

[1909] But also, like I'm able to give them a foundational education.

[1910] I get to talk about things like affinity groups.

[1911] I get to talk about adoptees.

[1912] Why can't they have open adoption records?

[1913] Why can they not have their genetic identity?

[1914] I get to talk about issues about donor conception, like, oh, hey, did you know in the U .S. that there's no donor caps?

[1915] And in fact, the American Society of Reproductive Medicine, ASRM and S -A -R -T, they are a professional organization.

[1916] You are not required to do any of their guidelines.

[1917] People don't know that.

[1918] That is just, we recommend this.

[1919] You decide if you want to follow this or not.

[1920] They also say, as a donor -conceived person, that you can have 25 offspring per 800 ,000 people in the population.

[1921] you do that math, I can have over 10 ,000 half siblings in the U .S. and still be considered biodiverse.

[1922] When you go in and you're selecting a donor, there's no donor caps.

[1923] You have no idea of being on a live burst.

[1924] If they say that there's 10, bullshit.

[1925] They have no way of tracking it.

[1926] So I go and like word vomit on legislators to like, you know, raise awareness of this.

[1927] It's also really important because the time is here.

[1928] The time is now.

[1929] Our technology, with overturning Road versus Wade, with everything kind of coming together, we are at that boiling point.

[1930] We have to start doing this.

[1931] And the legislation has to be centered around the people it's creating.

[1932] Yes.

[1933] And if you do not do that in their best interest, then we are devaluing human life here.

[1934] Yeah.

[1935] We really are.

[1936] Did you know that Nel salons are more regulated than the fertility industry?

[1937] Oh, this is the worst thing I don't want to hear that right now.

[1938] Did you know the cattle industry tracks genetics better than the fertility industry.

[1939] No. There's nowhere to report any of this stuff.

[1940] Also, did you know that one in five clinics were found to have mislabeled, misdiagnosed, and mishandled reproductive material?

[1941] No, that's one in five?

[1942] There is this company called Fertility IQ.

[1943] They're trying to fill in this gap that exists.

[1944] It is a platform.

[1945] So they send out surveys and all this kind of stuff.

[1946] They had one at 2016.

[1947] So it's a little bit ago.

[1948] 18 to 24 % of people that responded, they reported that they had some sort of error in IVF, in storage, in retrievals, and all of it, mislabeling.

[1949] But that's pretty consistent.

[1950] When you look at medical malpractice, it's about 20 to 21%.

[1951] Is it?

[1952] Yes.

[1953] And here's what happens.

[1954] ASRM, S -A -R -T, they can get off by being like, that's not really true.

[1955] There's less than 1%, because there's nothing backing it up.

[1956] So they can say things like that.

[1957] We were at a dinner party, and I was telling Monica about this.

[1958] My friend just was like, oh, yeah, my friend froze their eggs and they just lost.

[1959] She's 50.

[1960] Yeah.

[1961] And they lost them, she's never going to have kids.

[1962] Think about this.

[1963] So if we have 12 .4 % of the U .S. population that's struggling with infertility, then you add single mothers by choice.

[1964] You add LGBTQ community.

[1965] Now you're in the upper 20%.

[1966] These people are going to start freezing eggs.

[1967] They're going to start embryos.

[1968] Now these tanks are getting bigger and bigger and bigger.

[1969] And our answer is to write it down on pencil and a big old book.

[1970] Oh, I can't.

[1971] I can't.

[1972] Like that Harry Potter world in storage.

[1973] But then also you need to know, like, is your alarm on?

[1974] Because to your friend's point, that alarm wasn't on.

[1975] When that tank failed, all they had to do was have the alarm on.

[1976] Did they have a backup generator?

[1977] No, because they're not required to you.

[1978] Like, we are creating human lives here.

[1979] Our doctors need to do better.

[1980] And they will not have that responsibility unless we put it on them.

[1981] And it's like we're either over -regulated or under -regulated, right?

[1982] Like there's over -regulation in obvious ways right now.

[1983] But then in this other way, it's like you're on your own.

[1984] Yeah, but you figure it out.

[1985] You ask the question.

[1986] Do you come up with it?

[1987] Yes.

[1988] You do the research.

[1989] Again, emotional labor that is usually up to a woman to do.

[1990] Yeah.

[1991] And the over -regulation and under -regulation all adds up to no protection for the female body, though.

[1992] It's the same outcome.

[1993] Oh, 100%.

[1994] Yes.

[1995] And again, there's overregulation because they don't see childbirth as the single most dangerous thing.

[1996] A woman can do.

[1997] Exactly.

[1998] Globally for girls, it's a number one leading cause of death.

[1999] Pregnancy.

[2000] It's extremely expensive in America to do it.

[2001] It is.

[2002] And to think that even legally, not just morally and sort of culturally, we're told like life is a gift, that even legally, that's just so disturbing.

[2003] Well, the industry is concerned with the existential transatlantic transatlism.

[2004] of just getting someone pregnant.

[2005] Once someone is pregnant, they did their job.

[2006] It's done.

[2007] They're not worried about the complicated things that follow after.

[2008] And then you do get all those marginalizing things.

[2009] Well, you wanted a baby, you got one.

[2010] You wanted a baby, you got one.

[2011] You didn't want a baby, you got one.

[2012] You got one.

[2013] Yeah, exactly.

[2014] So have you talked to your kids about this at all?

[2015] Yes.

[2016] So my son came home and I don't know.

[2017] He like heard something from a kid at school or I don't know what it was.

[2018] And he was like, Mom, is that the bad daddy?

[2019] And I was like, oh, it's time for the talk.

[2020] I've been really ready for this.

[2021] The baddie.

[2022] Yeah, the daddy.

[2023] Ah, yes.

[2024] Hashtag baddie.

[2025] Oh, that is now added as a hashtag daddy.

[2026] Hashtag daddy.

[2027] Hashtag daddy.

[2028] I'm really glad you did.

[2029] And I think it's really good for boys, especially, to, like, be aware of the way a lot of men have exploited women.

[2030] And so that they know, like, that affected.

[2031] my mom, I can't do that.

[2032] I can't repeat that.

[2033] And it opens the door for conversations around consent and, you know, those deeper issues that don't always naturally come up.

[2034] I wanted my girls to know that if something like this happens to you, that victim side of it doesn't have to define you.

[2035] And you have the power and the voice to do something and that can help someone else.

[2036] And so I never wanted to have a moment when they were older and to have to talk with regrets.

[2037] I wish I could have done something, I wanted them to see that no matter what it is, like, you can find a purpose in the pain.

[2038] And that is, that's healing and that is rising above and that's working through it in a healthy way that's not compartmentalizing.

[2039] And so that was really important to me to be able to, you know, show that to my kids to you.

[2040] I'm so grateful you've been part of this push.

[2041] You made real change.

[2042] That's so amazing.

[2043] It's incredible.

[2044] I appreciate it.

[2045] For so many women and men.

[2046] That's like the hero's journey, the definition of like, you don't want it, right?

[2047] You're like, no, I don't want this.

[2048] But then you've stepped into it in just a marvelous way and you're helping so many people.

[2049] Well, I appreciate you guys.

[2050] I watched a lot of Legally Blind.

[2051] Thank you, Elwoods.

[2052] Thank you.

[2053] I was not ready.

[2054] I knew it was going to be full of twist and turns, but I did not expect that many.

[2055] Yeah.

[2056] I feel like we just got downloaded with a lot of really important information.

[2057] I mean, this is stuff we do need to be thinking about.

[2058] Because it's so crazy that you can't sue.

[2059] It's wild.

[2060] That it is not a crime because you got the baby.

[2061] Like, you got what you wanted.

[2062] You got a baby.

[2063] Be happy.

[2064] Yeah.

[2065] It's like if you're going out, you want to meet someone in a bar and you get assaulted and they're like, well, you wanted to get laid.

[2066] It's like, no, not that way.

[2067] And that's not what I want.

[2068] It's wild.

[2069] She's amazing, though.

[2070] I'm so happy there's someone out there fighting.

[2071] for all of these people who have no advocate.

[2072] I feel so lucky that we got to talk to her.

[2073] And we do have one more interview today.

[2074] We talked to B. B also has a story in the similar vein.

[2075] I actually know Bee personally.

[2076] So I've heard bits and pieces of the story before.

[2077] It's also wild.

[2078] And I think we'll be a really interesting perspective on how to cope with some of these family secrets that get revealed.

[2079] So let's hop.

[2080] to B. We appreciate you sharing this story with us.

[2081] It's a great story.

[2082] It's a good story.

[2083] And it's an impactful story.

[2084] B, I know you.

[2085] And I sat next to you at a party and you laid this all out there.

[2086] And I wish I had a recording.

[2087] I'm sure I was just like mouth agape the whole time, which I'm sure you get all the time, by the way.

[2088] It's the best cocktail party story.

[2089] People like at work bring me to like client meetings just so I can tell the story and warm up the room.

[2090] But the crazy part about my story is that it's so common these days.

[2091] Exactly.

[2092] Whenever I tell it, someone's like, oh my God, my cousin's best friend.

[2093] Like, you know, there's always someone else who they know.

[2094] So I'll just start kind of at the beginning.

[2095] I took one of those wonderful DNA tests, the ones that come in a kit.

[2096] I was less interested in my family.

[2097] I very close -knit family.

[2098] I know them all very well.

[2099] I was more interested in kind of my medical history and just finding out, is there anything I need to kind of be wary of?

[2100] So that being said, I got my results and quickly, like, scroll through.

[2101] And you come from two parents that are still together?

[2102] My mom and dad are happily married.

[2103] I was raised in a family of two kids, me and a sibling.

[2104] And then my dad had actually had kids from a previous marriage.

[2105] So it was my dad's second marriage.

[2106] and my mom's first marriage and had a very wonderful, normal, above average upbringing.

[2107] Never really thought twice about it.

[2108] I will say that there are points in my life, which I don't know if other people go through this, because I can only say from my perspective, where I would sometimes look at my father and say, what do I have of his?

[2109] And I was constantly looking for that, like, is it our thumbs?

[2110] Are they the same?

[2111] Literally, like, I don't see myself in him.

[2112] We're very similar personality -wise, which people are.

[2113] I would always say, but I really couldn't see any of the familiar traits, like, just looking at him.

[2114] It was crazy.

[2115] I'd look at his toenails.

[2116] Like, I was looking for anything.

[2117] And I just kind of did that my whole life.

[2118] And I wonder if other people do that.

[2119] With the way you're nodding, I'm assuming that's probably not the case.

[2120] But I was always kind of looking because I did, I did look so much like my mom in many ways.

[2121] Like, I could definitely see that.

[2122] So that being said, I never thought I think of it.

[2123] I had a great family, very close -knit.

[2124] I took a DNA test and was, scrolling through the results of all the diseases I was cleared of.

[2125] And it said, do you want to opt into your family tree?

[2126] And I actually thought about it.

[2127] And I said, well, I know my family.

[2128] I know them all very well.

[2129] We're very close -knit.

[2130] And I also knew that, like, none of my half -siblings from my dad's first marriage, they weren't on the site.

[2131] I knew that my real sibling wasn't on the site.

[2132] And so I don't know what prompted me to click.

[2133] Yes, but I did.

[2134] And immediately, there were seven or eight half siblings that popped up.

[2135] And I quickly scrolled the names and didn't recognize any of them.

[2136] In fact, none of the family names that I had known or been familiar with in terms of my family.

[2137] There's been a couple of last names, kind of different sectors of the family.

[2138] And like, those names were not present.

[2139] So I was so taken aback.

[2140] Who are these people?

[2141] And in my head, I was like, oh, well, you know, we must be cousins, even though it said half sibling, but I couldn't wrap my head around that.

[2142] Yeah.

[2143] And immediately these people start messaging me on the site.

[2144] And they start reaching out.

[2145] And I am completely kind of weirded out by it.

[2146] My first instinct is obviously they want my organs because, of course, that's what everyone thinks when he breaks out to you on the site.

[2147] But I'm like, if there's a genetic match, they clearly want my organs.

[2148] It was so weird to me. It's just such a mind fuck.

[2149] Is that a thing, though, people want your organs?

[2150] Only in my crazy paranoid state.

[2151] Okay, got it.

[2152] Okay.

[2153] I just wanted to know if I didn't, there's something I didn't know that.

[2154] Okay, got it.

[2155] I don't think it's normal or crazy world that this is where my head goes.

[2156] I don't think it's normal or coming place for anyone else to think this.

[2157] But that's my instinct was obviously they want my organs.

[2158] I love how your brain works.

[2159] 100 % paranoid and a hypochondriac.

[2160] So there you go.

[2161] Ditto.

[2162] Hence me taking the test in the first place.

[2163] I want to know exactly what diseases I was going to get and I need to prepare.

[2164] So, you know, I actually tried madly to get off the site.

[2165] And I could figure out how to, like, disable my profile.

[2166] and, like, could I change my name?

[2167] What could I do to, like, make myself anonymous?

[2168] Because it just felt really overwhelming.

[2169] I kind of let it go for a day or so.

[2170] And then one of the women finds me in Instagram.

[2171] And Instagram friends me, and we have some friends in common.

[2172] We're both at the time living in New York, both Jewish.

[2173] And she seemed somewhat similar to, like, my circle.

[2174] Obviously, our circles were intertwined with mutual friends.

[2175] So I accepted the friend request, and she immediately reached out and say, hey, could you hop on the phone?

[2176] And I was kind of weirded out.

[2177] I was like, okay, fine.

[2178] And we got on the phone and we quickly started talking about why I took the test.

[2179] And I explained someone had given it to me and I have this like crazy curiosity about my health.

[2180] And she explained that her husband's ex -wife, who actually she's very close with, was adopted and was looking for her biological family.

[2181] And so in solidarity, she decided to take the test with her.

[2182] So she took the test, not really thinking she's going to uncover anything.

[2183] But she said that through her journey, which had been kind of a year and a half for two years, she has uncovered that she believes she's a product of a sperm donor and she thinks I am as well.

[2184] What does that feel like to be on the receiving end of that call?

[2185] They didn't believe it.

[2186] I immediately thought, clearly my father donated sperm.

[2187] It's almost like watching a movie.

[2188] Like you aren't able to comprehend reality.

[2189] Like you just are like, well, that's clearly not.

[2190] true and how could that be?

[2191] And so immediately I said, I think my father was a donor.

[2192] I need to go.

[2193] I need to call my mom and we'll talk another time.

[2194] And I basically hung up on her.

[2195] Just some background, I have two kids in my own and I had always grown up knowing that my parents had a hard time conceiving me. They were very open about that, that I was desperately wanted and that they had some trouble.

[2196] And in fact, my mom's gynecologist was like a family name in her house.

[2197] Like I grew up knowing who he was.

[2198] And, you know, he was kind of like this hero.

[2199] And I guess, you know, other families who grew up like that.

[2200] But to me, it was like, obviously I know my mom's doctor's name, which is weird.

[2201] But I think because of what he was able to bring to them as people who were having trouble conceiving.

[2202] Now, this was the kind of early to mid -70s.

[2203] And just to kind of set the record, this is, which I know Monica, fact check, but just to make sure, this is, as far as I understand it, before in vitro existed.

[2204] But, artificial insemination was something they had figured out.

[2205] So there were no test two babies.

[2206] I remember seeing the cover, the first test two baby.

[2207] I remember that.

[2208] So there was no in vitro.

[2209] Right.

[2210] The technology was literally taking a specimen and inserting it into a woman.

[2211] There was no like cleaning of it.

[2212] There was no like testing of it.

[2213] None of that existed.

[2214] And so what I have come to find out, which is fascinating to me, is that couples who were looking to have children were infertile for whatever.

[2215] ever reasons, because again, this is before DNA was even discovered, would go to this well -known clinic in New York City, and I'm sure other places across the country, but this one was in New York City, and say, we want to have a baby, what do we do?

[2216] And they were told, well, we're going to boost the sperm with other sperm to make it faster and stronger.

[2217] Well, that doesn't exist.

[2218] Right.

[2219] It doesn't work that way because my mom's immediate reaction when I questioned her was, you're a mix, but that doesn't work.

[2220] Biology is one egg, one sperm.

[2221] Yeah.

[2222] So what they actually do is that they would tell couples to have sex the morning of or the day before the procedure.

[2223] They would bring them in and they would have a donor there ready to donate.

[2224] Now, there was no donor registry.

[2225] Wow.

[2226] How did that existed?

[2227] So the only way they could tell that donors were actually viable was that they actually had to have healthy children they already created.

[2228] Not many people who have healthy children are running to donate sperm.

[2229] Right.

[2230] So they were really depending on the residents at the hospital.

[2231] So a lot of OBGYN residents in particular basically paid their way through college donating sperm.

[2232] Yeah.

[2233] And at the time, there was no DNA.

[2234] So parents were told, we matched by blood type and eye color, the only two things you can trace.

[2235] Maybe it's your sperm.

[2236] Maybe it's donor sperm.

[2237] We don't know, but don't worry about it.

[2238] No, no ever know.

[2239] It's your baby.

[2240] Go on with your life and off you go.

[2241] And it worked.

[2242] And it worked for a lot of families.

[2243] And so there's an entire kind of generation of people who are actually likely related.

[2244] There's no medical records.

[2245] There's no, a registry.

[2246] This has all been uncovered by genetic testing available at everyone's fingertips now.

[2247] No one anticipated that that could actually happen.

[2248] Oh, my God.

[2249] With all these genetic testing companies, is this a frequent kind of side effect that a lot of people figuring out that they're not actually related to their father?

[2250] Their dad's not their dad.

[2251] No one's releasing stats on this, but I will say that this industry is uncovering family secrets of all types.

[2252] So it doesn't just stop with, you know, my dad's not my dad.

[2253] It could be my mom had an affair.

[2254] My mom and sister were never related.

[2255] I mean, there's so many billion.

[2256] I've heard crazy stories of a lot of people who have uncovered, like, my brother's not my brother.

[2257] I was adopted.

[2258] Like, there's just so many stories that were never told.

[2259] There's no documents or evidence.

[2260] And so you just believe what you're told.

[2261] Okay.

[2262] So after you found that out, did you go to your mom?

[2263] Part of how I found out was I went to my mom.

[2264] mom and I said, these people are saying these things and what's happening?

[2265] And I said to her, I know you and daddy had trouble conceiving.

[2266] And she's like, yes, but we went to the doctor and we had treatments and we have you and so it matters.

[2267] And I'm like, right, right, of course.

[2268] And I said, what treatments did you have thinking they're going to say some kind of fertility drug?

[2269] And that's when she said, well, the doctors boosted daddy's sperm with stronger sperm.

[2270] Now, that's when I realized I'm not his child.

[2271] Right.

[2272] And did you explain that to her?

[2273] Like how that works?

[2274] What you explained to us?

[2275] I did.

[2276] I think like, here's the thing.

[2277] I think denial is a crazy thing.

[2278] I think it was 40 -something years back.

[2279] You put that out of your mind.

[2280] As my mom has said, you know, since then, I just wanted a baby.

[2281] Like, I just wanted you.

[2282] It didn't matter.

[2283] And I think the fact that I am so much like my father in so many ways, not physically, but like we have very similar personalities.

[2284] My mom would never question that I wasn't his.

[2285] And I was theirs.

[2286] They left it there.

[2287] Yeah.

[2288] They left it there.

[2289] No one thought of it.

[2290] Which is interesting because like a couple of things I wonder, which I haven't asked her, but like I was born with a heart defect.

[2291] I had hurt surgery.

[2292] Like I wonder if they ever said, huh.

[2293] But I don't know if they did.

[2294] I don't know if like genetics played such a role back then.

[2295] I feel like now we easily like attribute everything to genetics when I was pregnant with.

[2296] my first child, we did a feto -echocardiogram because I was born with a heart deformity.

[2297] Now, my heart deformity was not genetic, but immediately that's the first place that people go is like, let's just check that box.

[2298] I just think it was different back then.

[2299] Again, there was no DNA.

[2300] It was just a different time.

[2301] It's the wild west of infertility.

[2302] Okay.

[2303] And then you were like, oof, okay, well, so my dad is not my dad.

[2304] Were you like, should I tell him?

[2305] I said, where's daddy?

[2306] she's in the other room.

[2307] I said, don't tell him.

[2308] Don't tell him this.

[2309] And the reason I'm speaking, not with my full name, is because I've never told him.

[2310] He's my father no matter what.

[2311] I'm very close with him.

[2312] I love him unconditionally.

[2313] And it has never changed the way I feel about him.

[2314] I say this now four or five years later, but finding this out was probably the hardest thing of how to go through.

[2315] I remember just sitting and looking at my legs and my arms and saying, who's are they?

[2316] Your sense of self, it was so wrapped into the same.

[2317] like genetics part.

[2318] Like I just couldn't figure out who I was for a second.

[2319] And I remember looking at my kids and thinking, like, did them a huge disservice.

[2320] They don't know who they are.

[2321] And I don't know who they are.

[2322] And just everyone felt like a stranger, including myself.

[2323] Yes.

[2324] I would feel like, am I like Plato?

[2325] Very disorienting.

[2326] Beyond disorienting.

[2327] I felt like I was kind of floating.

[2328] One of my, now we call the diblings, donor siblings.

[2329] One of my diblings explained it to me is like someone shook up one of the snow globes.

[2330] And I'm one of the, those particles, and I'm just floating.

[2331] There's nothing to ground me. And I was so lucky that I had these seven other people who were having similar experiences, albeit like maybe a different timeline or a little bit different, but most the stories are somewhat similar of being completely blindsided by this information and then having to move forward with that.

[2332] And, you know, what do you make of it then?

[2333] They were kind of like my gurus or my guides through this really weird time of complete disorienting, you know, chaos.

[2334] It's almost like you had a little 12 -step group because it's such a unique experience to go through, right?

[2335] It would be hard to find people going through the exact same things.

[2336] That must have been a really big part of your healing.

[2337] I'm so grateful I had them because it was a huge part of getting me to the other side.

[2338] And I now look at it as such a blessing.

[2339] It is amazing to meet people that you share genetics with, but how.

[2340] have no relationship with and yet be so drawn to them.

[2341] And to see how genetics play out, I mean, I'm so similar to so many of these people.

[2342] And yet, you know, it's that nature versus nurture conversation.

[2343] We haven't been raised together.

[2344] And yet we share so many similar traits.

[2345] Can you give some examples?

[2346] Sure, of course.

[2347] There's one man. The rest are women.

[2348] And my donor, he would tell stories.

[2349] He'd be up in the ER, you know, in the hospital and get a call, like, come on down.

[2350] and was known for his strong sperm and would donate and, you know, it would be inserted into the, you know, next woman and the next woman who had the same kind of blood type or one of the parents had the same blood type and eye color and off they went.

[2351] Just to know what we're talking about here.

[2352] He donated twice a week for four years.

[2353] So there's probably thousands of us.

[2354] And I guess not every one of them would take, right?

[2355] I would love to do analysis of like, if, If 100 % of the population took these tests, where'd we end up?

[2356] It would just be, yeah.

[2357] It's a horror movie.

[2358] A lot of therapy.

[2359] Or, I mean, it's horror, but also in some ways, like I was saying before, like, there are some big positives, too.

[2360] Oh, yeah.

[2361] I mean, I have these amazing, you know, women in my life that, you know, I never knew before.

[2362] We have none of that weird, competitive, like, sibling.

[2363] We grew up together, therefore, like, we have that rivalry.

[2364] but yet like we're still siblings you know we share a good part of our genetic DNA and it's amazing to meet them as adults and to develop relationships with them and have so much similarity like we are all incredibly resilient we are all very strong women we're all loud women we are not wallflowers what's interesting about my family is my family's very quiet and I have always felt like I'm so loud in such a personality and yet like my parents are not and they're lovely, amazing people.

[2365] I'm so different from them.

[2366] And it was just always so interesting to me that I was so different.

[2367] And yet I meet these strangers who share genetic makeups with me. The volume we're together is out of control because we're like out talking one another.

[2368] Anxiety.

[2369] We all have anxiety.

[2370] We all have very similar kind of little challenges in our personal lives, et cetera, that like we've all had like similar experiences.

[2371] And it's just fascinating to hear about them and to say, yes, me too, me too.

[2372] And to understand it's a lot of nature and not just nurture.

[2373] Gosh, it must have felt so validating.

[2374] It did.

[2375] It felt like deep down I knew something was not right.

[2376] There was something amiss and my body was detecting it and I couldn't process what that possibly could be.

[2377] But once the dust settled and accepted the fact and was able to kind of process it, I was like, oh, this makes so much more sense.

[2378] Did this whole thing kind of cure your hypochondria?

[2379] Oh, God, no, I wish.

[2380] That would be amazing.

[2381] No, I just have more people to go to and be like, has anyone ever had a mole in their upper left lip?

[2382] Like, you're like, it's just crazy things that I ask them.

[2383] And it's just more crowdsourcing material.

[2384] So, in fact, it, like, threw my hypochondriacism into, like, chaos because all of a sudden, my first thought was, I don't know my health history.

[2385] And it was, like, that race to find our...

[2386] a donor.

[2387] We have to find him because we have to know.

[2388] I was not looking to develop necessarily a relationship with him.

[2389] I do have a relationship with him.

[2390] I had an amazing father.

[2391] I just wanted, like, tell me the history.

[2392] Tell me the medical stuff.

[2393] And it turns out he's a great guy and I'm so happy he's in my life.

[2394] But that was like an added bonus.

[2395] The only reason I bring up the hypochondri thing is because knowing in your heart that something's wrong.

[2396] Like something's actually not exactly right.

[2397] And when you say to people and they're like, ugh, or like you go to the doctor and they're like, you're fine, you're fine, you're fine.

[2398] And you're like, but I'm not.

[2399] Like, something's wrong.

[2400] And I think that leads to a lot of hypochondri.

[2401] That happened with me a lot.

[2402] And then when I found out I had seizures and epilepsy, honest to God cured it.

[2403] Because I was like, I knew it.

[2404] I knew something was wrong.

[2405] And everyone's saying it's nothing.

[2406] And now I know what it is.

[2407] And actually, now that when things are a little weird, I trust my guts so much more.

[2408] I'm like, I'm right.

[2409] I know when something's way off.

[2410] And so for you, it's like, you were growing up, like, something's a little off and I could see it manifesting into, like, it being health.

[2411] Something's a little off.

[2412] Maybe I have a brain tumor.

[2413] Maybe I have a, you know, a circulation issue, whatever.

[2414] So that's why I wonder, you figured out the thing that was a little off.

[2415] I did.

[2416] I wish you could say cured that part of me. I don't think, I don't think any of who I am.

[2417] Another part of the story, which I find fascinating is that it helped me understand who I am and why I'm the way I am.

[2418] I was raised in this, like, amazing little quiet have family and you know I have kids in my own and we are very much a naked household it's not that I want other people to see me naked I'm just very very comfortable being naked like when I'm home with my kids and it's just the three of us I'm naked I'm cooking naked I'm doing laundry naked like it's just who I am not all the time but like I have no problem with that it feels okay to me and it's always been who I am and in fact my ex -husband would always be like can you just put on clothes like it's just you're very different and I was like okay whatever you know I go and I meet my my, you know, sperm donor for the first time.

[2419] And I'm in his house and we're doing a tour.

[2420] And there's all these, like, signs up.

[2421] He's a beautiful property.

[2422] He has all these, like, hedges.

[2423] He's like, you see how it's so private.

[2424] It's like, yeah, he's like, well, one thing you should all know is that I'm a nudist.

[2425] And I was like, oh, my God, this is, like, this makes all the sense.

[2426] Yes, yes, you are.

[2427] And that's why I am the way I am.

[2428] Like, this explains everything.

[2429] Because it wasn't like it was modeled for me. There was no one naked in my home, you know, and it was just like, Little, like, personality quirks I've had throughout my life that was like, huh, where'd that come from?

[2430] And it is so clear that it's from that part of the family.

[2431] And I do have a lot of my sperm donor's DNA.

[2432] Like, I actually share the most DNA with his daughter that he raised.

[2433] So we're the most similar.

[2434] So I do have a lot of him in me. There is a genetic gene for nudity.

[2435] I'm telling you it's out there.

[2436] And I got it.

[2437] Finally, like, it made sense, like, oh, this is why I am the way I am.

[2438] I'm very curious about the decision to not tell your dad.

[2439] And then to meet with the sperm donor, you're not referring to him as your dad, even though he's biologically related to you.

[2440] So can you tell us about how you sorted through all of that for yourself?

[2441] Because I'm still sorting through it, right?

[2442] I still live in this kind of world of secrets.

[2443] But it's all because I want to protect my dad.

[2444] I don't want him to think I feel like any less his daughter, because I don't.

[2445] He's my dad.

[2446] and he will always be my dad, and that's it.

[2447] He's in his 80s.

[2448] If it were to upset him, which I hope it wouldn't.

[2449] But even if it did a tiny bit, it's not worth it to me. Because he's a great dad and he was always a dad.

[2450] And then there's the whole other side of it where he has three kids from a previous marriage and they are my half siblings, but they're not really.

[2451] Yeah, right.

[2452] So a lot of people are affected by this.

[2453] You know, it's not just me and him.

[2454] There's another sibling I have that was created by my mom and dad together and our whole lives, we've been told how different we are.

[2455] People can't fathom that we are from the same family.

[2456] And I am pretty sure that that sibling has a different donor.

[2457] I don't think that that sibling was created by my father.

[2458] I know it wasn't my donor.

[2459] My donor had stopped donating by then.

[2460] And then it's like, there's that secret.

[2461] Having gone through this, it is a really, really, really hard thing to know about yourself at this point in your life.

[2462] So my mom begged me not to tell my sibling.

[2463] And I struggled with it, but I also know that you have to be really strong to handle this information.

[2464] And I'm not sure that my siblings as strong as I am.

[2465] Knowing what I went through to process is now it's great, but it was not easy.

[2466] It's not something I would wish on someone.

[2467] Do you wish you hadn't found out?

[2468] I did for a while, especially the first two months.

[2469] I was so mad at myself for clicking that box.

[2470] My life is just so easy.

[2471] This was so much more complicated than they ever expected.

[2472] But then I came around and I was like, I'm so happy I did.

[2473] This has made my life so much richer.

[2474] And I've met so many amazing people and be able to have these relationships with these amazing people I had genetic familiarity with.

[2475] If your dad had been younger when you learned it, do you think you would have told him or do you think it wouldn't have changed it?

[2476] I wasn't shy about taking this test.

[2477] My parents knew I was doing it.

[2478] In fact, when I got the results, I said to both of them, oh, my God, this is so weird.

[2479] It says I have all these siblings.

[2480] And they were like, oh, that's weird.

[2481] I wonder if on some level, he's an incredibly sparking person.

[2482] But I also think that we have an amazing ability to also believe what we need to believe.

[2483] Yes, 100%.

[2484] So I don't know.

[2485] But if it was positioned different to them, like I feel like the way that these dark doctors in the early 70s, mid -70s positioned it to these kind of everyday people who were not knowledgeable in terms of, you know, medicine and were just kind of said like, yeah, don't worry about it.

[2486] Who knows?

[2487] And just move on with your life kind of thing.

[2488] I've asked my mom that.

[2489] Like, have you ever thought about it?

[2490] And I think, again, they just shut it out.

[2491] If they had said to me when I was younger, hey, we did this crazy treatment and we got a bit, you know, and we had more of an open dialogue about it, perhaps.

[2492] I don't know.

[2493] It just didn't seem like something I needed to do.

[2494] It does feel weird that I'm not open to my kids in the sense like they don't know they have all these like half cousins out there and they've actually met some of my donor siblings and know them as like friends of mine and like one day I will bring it up and I will explain everything to them but not now.

[2495] That's a weird thing for me too that like I wish I could just be 100 % honest and authentic but it's not worth hurting people.

[2496] I think it makes so much sense what you're doing and I want to protect my dad.

[2497] The crazy part is to me is that like he obviously could have kids.

[2498] He had three with someone else.

[2499] My mom could obviously have kids.

[2500] She had me and another child.

[2501] They just couldn't do it together.

[2502] They would have been a great candidate for IVF.

[2503] Yeah.

[2504] And it exists.

[2505] So it's just amazing like when I get caught up in my head about like what could have been.

[2506] So you were raised Jewish.

[2507] Yep.

[2508] And your mom and your dad are Jewish.

[2509] My mom and my dad are Jewish.

[2510] And the crazy thing about my donor, which my mom thinks to this day was like handpicked for her.

[2511] I'm not so sure.

[2512] but whatever, was that he is also 100 % Jewish.

[2513] Oh, wow.

[2514] My dad graduated from high school years before he should have.

[2515] My donor graduated from high school years before he should have.

[2516] Oh, wow.

[2517] Both overachievers, both very successful in their own right, other than the fact that, like, my donor is very loud and kind of boisterous and different kind of humor.

[2518] That mutist, like very kind of a little bit more of an extrovert in many ways are very slimmer, which made sense why I was so much.

[2519] much like my father.

[2520] Yes, nurture plays a role in it, but also I do think that my donor and my father share a lot of similar kind of traits.

[2521] When you talk about not telling your dad and the kids and all of that, I mean, I do think about AA where there's a tenant that sometimes it's better to not be honest.

[2522] Like, you're supposed to be super honest, but if it's going to hurt the other person, you're not supposed to.

[2523] I just don't see the benefit.

[2524] I mean, for my kids, yes.

[2525] And that will happen one day.

[2526] But for my father, what's the benefit of telling him?

[2527] What will he gain from this?

[2528] Right.

[2529] Exactly.

[2530] I don't know.

[2531] I can't think of a positive for him.

[2532] Even in the past couple years, the amount of like books written and Netflix series and there's been so much about this kind of story.

[2533] And I only knew that because every time one gets released, it gets voted to me by like 17 different people.

[2534] I'm sure.

[2535] I know there's a lot out there because everyone's like, this is your story.

[2536] So like this is not just happening to me and my ownership links.

[2537] This is.

[2538] happening around the world.

[2539] Have you made any major life decisions based on this knowledge?

[2540] Has it affected your worldview perspective?

[2541] Yeah, I think I did.

[2542] I mean, I've decided to live my life more authentically.

[2543] I left a marriage and I kind of started a new life.

[2544] And I think part of that was like this desire just to be true to who I am.

[2545] And I also have these amazing women who I'm related to who are all really strong and are my cheerleaders no matter what.

[2546] I mean, regardless of my friends who I love, I just have this, like, core group of family, and we have an ongoing text.

[2547] And whenever something good happens we share, whenever something bad happens, we share.

[2548] That's kind of our role for each other.

[2549] And in fact, my sperm donor's daughter, who was raised by him, she had lost her mother.

[2550] And she's a badass.

[2551] She's so successful.

[2552] She's super amazing.

[2553] And we all, you know, travel together and we all meet up.

[2554] And she said this is the first time in her life.

[2555] She's had strong, amazing female relationships.

[2556] And she's like, I really feel like this is a gift for my mom.

[2557] I feel like this is what she has given me is you guys because I haven't had this before.

[2558] We call each other our people.

[2559] Like we had to find each other.

[2560] I'm so happy we did.

[2561] That's lovely.

[2562] I have a lot of friends who have used donors and have asked me questions.

[2563] And I think in the end of the day, it's really positive thing now that you as someone who has chosen a donor, that your child could one day connect with other donor siblings, diblings, and have these relationships.

[2564] Again, I think it's better if they know from a young age as opposed to being like, you know, a secret uncovered.

[2565] But I just want to make that clear that, like, it can be, I think, a really amazing, powerful thing to have these relationships with these people that you are genetically connected to but have been raised apart from.

[2566] Yeah, it seems like you deepened your relationships through this experience, which you would think would make you feel estranged or further away, right?

[2567] You're just feeling closer to this new group.

[2568] And closer to your dad.

[2569] Closer to your dad, like, even as you're talking, I'm thinking, like, what if I learned today that my dad isn't my real dad?

[2570] And I would have the same reaction as you.

[2571] He was like, no, no, that's my dad.

[2572] Like, all I think about is, like, my dad rocking me to sleep.

[2573] My dad giving me my bath.

[2574] My dad, like, helping me with my math homework and, like, yelling at me. And, like, you know, there would be no shift.

[2575] We had another guest talk about how fatherhood is through action, right?

[2576] It's something that you do.

[2577] And so it's helping me rethink even like, yeah, what does father.

[2578] mean to me or what does my dad mean to me?

[2579] And based on what?

[2580] And the genetics is like so little.

[2581] Totally.

[2582] And I'm grateful for my donor because he gave us all life.

[2583] But it's my dad who raised me. I mean, it's my dad who has created who I am.

[2584] And with genetic parts of my donor popping in and out and being like, oh, that's why I'm naked.

[2585] But yeah, it's 100 % fatherhood.

[2586] And parenting in general is time you put into it and the relationship that you create with this tiny human.

[2587] Yeah.

[2588] Have you talked to your donor?

[2589] about all of this?

[2590] And like, how does he feel now in retrospect, having given so much superb?

[2591] And for him, having so many children out there, like, I mean, I don't know if you've talked to him about this.

[2592] I'm sure you have.

[2593] What does that feel like for him?

[2594] I think he is proud.

[2595] I do.

[2596] I think it's amazing to him to see these deposits become full humans.

[2597] We're full people and yet we were just literally in a cup you know thing and like and then he forgot about it we were in a cup he forgot about it he went on with this business now we here we are these like adult women being like hi I think it blows kind of miraculous yeah like I think it blows his mind like I can't believe I was part of this at first he was a little wary of like what do they want but he was always incredibly kind to us and very open to any questions we had and he's one who educated us a lot on this process because he was the OB -GYNN resident.

[2598] So he was living and breathing this from the other side.

[2599] And he was like, yeah, he's like, where else were they going to go for donors?

[2600] His family made this decision together.

[2601] His wife, he said, listen, I can donate sperm and make money or I can work extra shifts and not be home with the kids.

[2602] I think it was just kind of like, yeah, let's do this.

[2603] And they saw, I think, these people day and day out who were desperate to have babies.

[2604] And there was no bank.

[2605] Nothing existed.

[2606] Like, this is it.

[2607] This is your option.

[2608] And to me us, the group of us, we can't believe we haven't had more.

[2609] Like, we haven't gotten any, like, you have another sibling.

[2610] Like, we always kind of wait for that day.

[2611] And we thought there'd be, like, a one a month.

[2612] And we thought, like, maybe after the holidays, people give it as gifts.

[2613] Like, we just kept waiting at this point.

[2614] We kind of like, where's everyone?

[2615] Like, there's more of us.

[2616] It's just so fascinating to think, just how technology and fertility really work hand in hand to give us so much more information that can, like, destroy relationships or create all these secrets, but also connect people more deeply with each other.

[2617] Well, what you guys are experiencing.

[2618] I mean, I don't know if I could have done that 10 years ago.

[2619] Like, I, you know, and even between my two pregnancies, the amount of technology and technical advances, like, I couldn't find out what I was having with my daughter.

[2620] Yeah, you didn't find out at 10 weeks, like, through the blood.

[2621] And then my son came along and, like, I had 10 weeks.

[2622] I knew it was a healthy boy.

[2623] I had to wait until I saw it in the sonogram with my daughter.

[2624] I can only imagine, like, what today people are having babies, like what they know and how quickly they know it and technology involved.

[2625] If someone told my mom, like, in 30 years, your daughter's going to be freezing her eggs and making a podcast about it.

[2626] She'd be like, what's a podcast?

[2627] What's freezing eggs?

[2628] What are you talking about?

[2629] Yeah, I know, exactly.

[2630] Well, B, this was really awesome.

[2631] Thank you so much for sharing your story.

[2632] Thank you for having me. I think it's really optimistic, but shows the whole ride.

[2633] There are ups and downs, and ultimately, though, you now feel empowered by it.

[2634] There's always going to be curveballs in life.

[2635] It's what you do with them.

[2636] Well, thank you so much for taking the time.

[2637] Thank you.

[2638] What a day.

[2639] What a day we had.

[2640] I mean, I thought I had an interesting life.

[2641] And it turns out, well, I have a basic life.

[2642] Look, all families have secrets.

[2643] All families are different.

[2644] And it's kind of nice for people to be so open.

[2645] It's really brave to come forward with all of the truth.

[2646] And we're all dealing with that in our families.

[2647] But fertility secrets are a different kind, a different breed.

[2648] Ooh, yeah.

[2649] I feel like we need face gym.

[2650] A lot.

[2651] Yeah.

[2652] I am calling them right now.

[2653] Okay.

[2654] So we're going to go get FaceGim, and we hope you guys have a great week.

[2655] And we'll see you next week for more Rasta 35.

[2656] See you.