The Mindset Doctor: The Secret Man Behind The World's Top Performers: Steve Peters

[0] We have beliefs within us that are just too hard to remove and they may have come from traumatic experiences.

[1] Let's learn how to put it in a box.

[2] Professor Steve Peters.

[3] He's a world -leading psychiatrist.

[4] The author of a number of very influential books including The Chimp Paradox.

[5] A man who has helped multiple British athletes.

[6] I've been seeing Steve for three years now.

[7] Not just any psychologist, Dr. Steve Peters.

[8] I'm a person who wants to help people.

[9] I started working with Chris Hoy.

[10] I went undercover to the Athens Olympics so we could make sure they did.

[11] God, his gold medal, and Ronnie a Sullivan.

[12] The emotion that guy was getting at that point was to be so unpleasant that partway through a World Championship, shook hands and walked out.

[13] So in Ronnie's case, what do you do?

[14] So the very first step is...

[15] Oh, really?

[16] And that is what winners do.

[17] For people to shift, they've got to have psychological -mindedness, which means they've got to understand that it's not about what happens to us in life, it's how we deal with it.

[18] What role does early childhood trauma play in how we respond in situations?

[19] And well, now we're really getting deep.

[20] Before we even born, the emotional memory is starting to react to that trauma.

[21] Your parent might suddenly say, you're just an idiot.

[22] But something might have happened just before that where you've got one out of ten and you were bottom of the spelling test.

[23] And the two together get emotionally tangled and that then damages the circuits.

[24] So you get people often with very low self -esteem.

[25] How does one go about working with someone who's got serious self -esteem issues?

[26] I'm going to be introversially, I'll say.

[27] Whenever there's a podcast episode that I record that really has a profound impact on me, I always want to provide a little bit of a disclaimer at the start to make sure that you give it a chance.

[28] And this is one of those episodes that comes along once in a while, which I absolutely, absolutely adore because of the depth of wisdom and the potential it offers to change your life.

[29] So what I'm going to ask you to do is to listen to this episode, to give it a chance and to try and get to the end.

[30] Because this is one of the rare ones that once in a while I think will genuinely change your life.

[31] It'll be one of those episodes that you pass around to your friends.

[32] Steve, how would you summarize your professional, academic, bio and experience?

[33] Okay, that's a tough starter.

[34] I would say that I'm a person who wants to help people.

[35] So what I've done throughout life is say, in order to help people, what do I need?

[36] So one of the things I felt I needed when I was a young man is I needed a medical background.

[37] So all of the work I've done, like in psychiatry, and particularly becoming a consult psychiatrist, it wasn't that I wanted to be that.

[38] It was I needed that in order to be able to help people effectively.

[39] So my experience in life has always been the more people I can help and the more circumstances, the better equipped I'll be to deal with whatever comes through the door.

[40] So I think of it slightly different to be about a career.

[41] It's more of an approach and an objective in life.

[42] and then what I need to do is learn in order to be good at that.

[43] In terms of your academic qualifications, what are those?

[44] My friends all laugh at this because I've got five degrees.

[45] So effectively, I started off doing mathematics and teaching, but then I went back into medicine and from there, their scientific qualifications, I got a medical degree.

[46] And then I went through the Royal College, so you specialise in psychiatry and get your membership exams.

[47] And then I've specialised again in looking at things like, because I got involved with sports people, I did an MSE so that we look at sports medicine itself again and brush up on my medical background.

[48] So I'm still a doctor at heart.

[49] And then because I teach at university, I did an MSE in a medical education.

[50] So I sort of, again, following what I've said as a theme, I think, what do I need and what would help me to do this?

[51] And then, so that's why I've collected these degrees.

[52] So that is my academic background.

[53] And then in terms of experience, Give me an overview of the sort of plethora of experience you've had practically working with people in different contexts in industries.

[54] Yeah, I mean, I went through medical training and then you do your routine job, so you've meds and surgery and so on, and I trained in general practice, and then went into psychiatry when I hit psychiatry as one of my disciplines during training for GP.

[55] From there, in psychiatry, you look across a vast spectrum.

[56] You select your job, so I covered general adult psychiatry, then I covered old age psychiatry, a child psychiatry, Linnitusability, and then into forensics.

[57] So when you've done all that kind of training experience, then you start to really specialise.

[58] And initially I was going into specialising in old age psychiatry.

[59] I felt what the service at that time was a long time ago was quite poor for old age.

[60] And there was very little research.

[61] It's before I receptor, so the anti -dementia drug came out.

[62] And I wanted to go into that.

[63] field but by virtue of the fact I'm a teacher I got a post in sort of teaching in university alongside clinical work and that mean really I need to do general adults so I then set off in general adult psychiatry did a lot of clinical work 20 years in the NHS but progress because the difficult cases are often personality disorders and how you manage them and particularly forensic style so psychopathic colloquially called we'd call them dissocial personality disorders how do you manage these people so I ended up becoming by default a specialist in this field and then ended up working in a secure hospital working with people under the mental health act who are detained who have transgressed the law so then you go into the legal aspects of how we deal with people who have transgressed the law and are now held under the mental health act almost indefinitely when you try and obviously get people back out of these secure hospitals if they're safe to come into the community so that in a nutshell is how my career develops so you end up with a vast experience over the last 40 years and then hopefully you can pull on that experience when you're working with everyday people working with everyday people you ended up working in the field of sports yes which seems less obvious as a path for you to take based on your you know based on your experience before that didn't seem like you're really aiming intentionally at working in sports no no so I'm not a sports fan I'm a people fan which means where people choose to work then I follow them and I've got to learn their world so obviously you got sports specialist sports psychologists of the specialists I came in a bit left field I was in forensics at the time but I was still teaching at university one of my previous medical students I teach medicine went as a doctor with a cycling team that was working for the Olympics so I knew nothing about this and he called him he's an excellent student but he wanted an opinion on somebody who is a professional who was struggling mentally.

[64] So I came in just to give an opinion and work with this guy.

[65] Now, I can only name people who've gone public, so I can't give names.

[66] And he excelled.

[67] And then I can name the next person.

[68] At that point, I was introduced to Chris Hoy.

[69] And Chris, an amazing guy, absolutely amazing.

[70] So really, it was an easy, a bit of work to do to help him to get his mind to do what it wanted to do with his mind.

[71] He went off.

[72] I went undercover to the Athens Olympics.

[73] He asked me to go with him so we could make sure that he got his gold if I could contribute.

[74] He got his gold medal and then said, really, I want you in the team.

[75] So I didn't go for a year.

[76] And after a year, I was convinced.

[77] I was working with Vicky Pendleton.

[78] And I knew that needed a bit more work.

[79] And she's, again, an amazing person.

[80] Great people to work with.

[81] And so I then took the leap.

[82] I mean, at that point, I was heading towards retirement then.

[83] So that's well.

[84] over 20 years ago now and then from there when I worked with them the swimming team came in British swimming and then it was just a I don't know a cascade of all the teams and so I started working across the Olympic teams and then went off to Beijing Olympics and it just I don't know game momentum and I just got this reputation well this guy can help you mentally you know so I work alongside the coaches obviously they're the people who take them to the front and I do the mental side of it so it wasn't a planned routine and I still do all my own other work.

[85] I still work with the public.

[86] I still work in other areas with doctors in the NHS with the police.

[87] I've done a lot of work with business people.

[88] So it just became generic at that point.

[89] Sir David Breltsford, who's been on this podcast, who was the performance director, I believe, of the British cycling team, took over at a time when it was struggling and led it to become maybe the greatest cycling team of all time.

[90] He says that your appointment was the, I quote the best appointment he's ever made now when I think about you know you getting that first call from that first athlete the one you said we're struggling and then working with Chris Hoy what exactly are you doing for them I think this is like no matter who comes in the door say you come to me what I've got to say is I'm not a sport psychologist I'm not the specialist what I am is a specialist in the human mind So I've made that my career.

[91] So I look at how the mind thinks, how it functions.

[92] And I ask you to first be a student, really, and I want you to learn your unique mind.

[93] I'm going to give you the blueprint.

[94] And together we're going to work out how you perceive the world, perceive yourself, perceive others, what do you want to do with your life?

[95] When we've done all of that, then, and only then, would ask to go into your world so then we can apply what you've learned.

[96] So it was interesting that two people I worked with the public again, were Vicki Pendleton, who was probably still the world's most successful female sprint on the bike, and then Ronnie O'Sullivan in Snooker.

[97] And both were interviewed, and they both said that to the press.

[98] They said, you know, he did not take us to sport.

[99] He took us to ourselves and worked with us as people.

[100] And so we got in a good place.

[101] Then we went to sport.

[102] Then he said, right, what is it you choosing to do with your life?

[103] And then I have to learn then because, obviously, if you take me to your world, I don't know your world.

[104] So I've got to go in there and learn what it is you're experiencing, how you're interpreting it.

[105] It's a teamwork and then I have to test things out.

[106] So that's basically what I did when I started working with Chris Hoy.

[107] He asked him what he was wanting to do.

[108] What was he finding easy?

[109] What was he finding difficult?

[110] And then try and work out what I felt he needed to do and how he managed his mind.

[111] And then I keep pushing this point.

[112] It is a skill.

[113] You've got to acquire it.

[114] So I don't have other people who might be able to do a process.

[115] I can't do that.

[116] What I do is ask you to work with me and try things out where you're gaining a skill.

[117] For example, a skill of recognising whether your emotion is actually helpful or unhelpful, whether you can remove the emotion or need to work with it or whether you can actually just dismiss it and learn how to move yourself on.

[118] And so it's a skill to be able to recognize things and then know how to do with that particular thing that you're experiencing.

[119] Could you give me a case study from one athlete you've worked with?

[120] So that will allow me to work through that process So first identifying the emotion, potentially, working on whether it's positive or negative, how it's serving me. And then how you might, with your process, lead me to a positive outcome, a productive outcome.

[121] Well, I'm going to pick Chris Hoyer and Roni and Sullivan on the grounds that both of them are very public about working with me. And they put out what I'm about to talk about.

[122] So when I work with Chris, what he was saying, he was doing the kilo at the time, which is four laps on a bike.

[123] But it's very similar to doing 400 meters where you know you've got to get the pace of judgment right.

[124] If you go off too fast, you burn out and you won't finish.

[125] And if you go off too slow, you'll never get the ground back.

[126] So it's a really tough, really tough event.

[127] So in the key law, I had to learn that, which wasn't too hard because I'm familiar with 400 meters.

[128] So, and then when I did that, I have to test out what his beliefs are.

[129] You know, when he sets off on the bike, where is he putting his focus?

[130] And that's what Chris was saying is when I set off on the bike, my focus can be distracted and it will drift off.

[131] and I might start thinking about what other people have just done when I'm watching my competitors or am I going fast enough or, and you start to do an analysis.

[132] Now, in his particular event, what I said to me is it's not going to help you to do an analysis in this event.

[133] Some sport it is because you have a breathing space where you can analyse and then get back into what I call computer mode.

[134] So he needs to program his mind to have a fixed leg speed, a fixed markers on the track so that he's not thinking at all.

[135] There's no analysis.

[136] That was my summary of it.

[137] So we tried that out.

[138] So when he went to the Olympics, everything was completely learning to switch off any thinking and analysis.

[139] And that's not easy, easy said than done.

[140] But we practice this.

[141] So on the holding camp, which there's like a three -week camp before the Olympics, I went to the holding camp in Newport, within.

[142] And every day we practice this.

[143] So we do 20 minutes of him learning to focus.

[144] And then we had specifics on the bike for when he got on it to do this kilo.

[145] And to me, he was an excellent student, clearly.

[146] He committed to it.

[147] And he would say then that when he got on the bike and he went round the day of the Olympics, he forgot where he was until he passed the line.

[148] So to me, that's like you're in complete focus mode.

[149] So again, credit to Chris.

[150] Why is switching off his mind in such a way or focusing his mind in such a way?

[151] Okay.

[152] Why is that?

[153] The neuroscience is complex.

[154] So I'm going to cut corners and do it very black and white and simplified.

[155] It's complex, but in a nutshell, there are three systems in your head, keeping it very simple.

[156] It's much more complex than that, but simplifying it.

[157] One of the systems will help you think very logically, and I call that the human system, it thinks logically, but it's very slow, which means if you operate with a human, your body and your reflexes will slow down because you're analysing as you go along and it slows the system, so you're more pensive.

[158] So that's really good in certain circumstances, but it's awful in fast -moving sports.

[159] So if he goes into that, it's very likely he'll slow down.

[160] It's not going to help him.

[161] If he goes into the second system, which we'll probably come back to, the chimp system, this is a primitive system which thinks.

[162] It's more than just a reaction and an impulsive system.

[163] It thinks.

[164] When it moves, it can move at speed.

[165] But it thinks emotionally.

[166] So this is the part of his brain that will think thoughts, are not helpful, such as, should I go faster at this point?

[167] And then it may make a decision to go faster and burn out.

[168] So that would be crazy.

[169] Finally, the third system is a computer.

[170] It just needs programming.

[171] The key to the computer, particularly in sports, is it moves so fast, it's approximately 20 times quicker than the human system to execute, and it's about four times quicker than the chimp system.

[172] So if you get into computer more, particularly fast -moving sports, It doesn't analyze or think.

[173] It's automatic thinking.

[174] So it works with keys like a computer.

[175] Is that the autopilot?

[176] Exactly.

[177] It's an autopilot.

[178] You're programmed.

[179] It's a behaviour that's programmed in.

[180] So when I came down the stairs to see you today, I know the route.

[181] I've done it 100 times.

[182] So I was holding my iPad, but I was on autopilot as I came down the stairs and walked into the door.

[183] Your body knows what to do.

[184] You don't need to think.

[185] Whereas if we put an obstacle in there, then it will stop.

[186] Okay.

[187] Because it doesn't know what to do.

[188] It's not programmed.

[189] where you'll have to think then.

[190] Is the computerware or habit system?

[191] It's habit formation, yes.

[192] All three do work together, but the computer is one that just blots out the other two or if they go silent, it can operate.

[193] And it's the computer that drives us to work or, like you say, it goes in a familiar track.

[194] But it can also generate automatic thinking.

[195] Okay.

[196] So when you meet somebody, your chimp may start to think, is this person going to like me?

[197] Am I going to come across?

[198] Okay.

[199] It could give you anything, whereas the computer system is automatic.

[200] So if you've programmed the belief that everybody loves me, then it's much more likely when you meet people, you're going to be very open and your body language will be positive.

[201] If you have, I'm being severe, obviously.

[202] If you have a belief nobody likes me or I'm not as good as everyone else, which unfortunately a lot of computers are programmed with that, then whenever you meet someone, you're on edge.

[203] And you're very conscious about what you're saying and doing because you've figured that it's going to be the truth, that they don't like, and you're trying to overcome that belief, which is so unhelpful.

[204] Now, that I call the Gremlin.

[205] But these beliefs are programmed into us, and we hold thousands of beliefs, often without knowing what they are.

[206] Okay, we're going to come back to that, because I want to talk about the Gremlin, the trauma, and where all of those beliefs come from, which ones we can resolve.

[207] But to your point then about Chris Hoy on that.

[208] So Chris was asking to, in my world, he was saying, how do I silence my human and chimp systems from analysing and thinking, which is their job.

[209] And how do I go into computer mode?

[210] So I forget where I am and just get on with the process.

[211] And he did this nicely.

[212] Ronnie Sullivan wasn't in that place.

[213] And again, Ronnie's giving me permission.

[214] He keeps him tell everybody everything.

[215] But I won't tell you everything.

[216] A lot of stuff is behind locked doors.

[217] So he's a great guy.

[218] I love Ronnie Sullivan.

[219] We've been friends now for over 10 years.

[220] So he's a privilege to work with him.

[221] It's one of the hardest working of my students.

[222] And he's saying to me all the time, he rings regularly.

[223] So I've spoken to him already yesterday.

[224] So we talk.

[225] But the key to Ronnie, was his chimp was so active in being anxious about how he came across, whether he'd perform well, what people would say, how well his rivals might be doing.

[226] It was just giving him what is natural and healthy, but extremely unhelpful.

[227] And that was creating very anxious moments.

[228] So before I met him, I had a look because I didn't know anything about Ronnie and or snooker.

[229] And I went online to say, can I see some YouTube of him?

[230] And I saw him hitting the white ball with acoustic and I thought well obviously that's not the right thing to be doing and I saw him walk out of a competition which distressed me you know I didn't know the guy but I thought wow the emotion that that guy was getting at that point was to have been so unpleasant that partway through a world championships competition he just suddenly stopped froze shook hands and walked out and I just thought you know when I saw that I definitely would help this man and we went back and actually looked at that incident and I said what was it and I love this and he just challenge me at the beginning, but after about an hour of chatting, he said, I get this.

[231] Because on that instant, he said to me, there was this voice sort of saying, just go out of here, you don't have to be, I don't want to be here.

[232] And he said, and I'm saying to myself, I want to play snooker.

[233] I just want to enjoy the game.

[234] And this voice got more strong saying, right, hit the cue.

[235] And he said, I hit the cue ball.

[236] And he said, I'm walking out.

[237] And the voice is still going, right?

[238] Just keep walking.

[239] We're not, we're out of here.

[240] I can't deal with this.

[241] And he said, Now I get it.

[242] There were two of me. There was me trying to do what I want.

[243] And there's this voice, which I couldn't manage at all.

[244] And I couldn't stop it doing what I wanted to do.

[245] So once I explained the model to him, and the model isn't for everyone.

[246] It's for those who can relate to it.

[247] He said, I get this because my human system, my chimp system are so different.

[248] They're pulls apart.

[249] So he's worked for 10 years saying, how do I recognize and manage this chimp system?

[250] So when he came to me, it wasn't just in he could see that his emotions were getting the better of him and it was a whole system that was emotionally driven and it was almost paranoid about things it was defensive it was making him feel vulnerable it was giving him anxiety and it's a really powerful system so it varies in person to person some people have very simple chimp systems which are not that strong and others most of us have chimp systems we we really recognize they're there and they mean business And they give us emotions which drive us to do things, make decisions, have behaviours that often are destructive, not just unconstructive.

[251] So in Ronnie's case, what do you do?

[252] Right.

[253] We started again to recognise the systems and say, right, let's just start.

[254] Because again, I try to take people through a series of steps rather than just throw things at them.

[255] And so the very first step is let's define who you are and let's define what your chimp is like.

[256] So we're recognised because everyone's unique.

[257] So I can't tell you who you are, know what your system is.

[258] I'll give you general things like this system is impulsive.

[259] It doesn't think a consequence.

[260] It's quite emotionally driven.

[261] When we're tired, it takes over.

[262] And people generally start, I get that.

[263] So neuroscientifically, that's what happens in the brain.

[264] So how do we start to recognise the difference?

[265] And then when we do, let's start simply to say, what is it that's prodding my chimp into action?

[266] And this is where it gets a little more complex.

[267] The chimp system can just react.

[268] So if I, for example, your friends with me, and one day I just shout at you for some reason and get annoyed and your chimp system is most likely going to shout back.

[269] But if it believes I'm not as good as other people or I can't cope, it's likely to go quiet and feel very intimidated and hurts.

[270] So again, we have to work out what your chimp system is doing.

[271] But on the other hand, the chimp system, the neurosciences, it always turns to the computer and says, what beliefs do I hold before I make my decision?

[272] And this happens in a fifth of a second.

[273] So let's see you're about to shout back at me and your chimp looks into the computer and one of your beliefs, I don't know what they are, might be if you shout back at people, it makes you look foolish.

[274] Yeah, well, I can tell you what my beliefs are.

[275] And I can tell you where they came from.

[276] So my parents had a very loud shouting relationship.

[277] I've never shouted in my life because of that.

[278] Because I learned firsthand.

[279] So what's your belief?

[280] My belief is that shouting achieves nothing.

[281] It's harmful for both parties.

[282] You lose when you do it.

[283] You're not heard when you do it.

[284] No, you stop there.

[285] That's brilliant.

[286] So just to try and just to steady with this is what you're saying to me is I absolutely resonate with these beliefs.

[287] They're not something I've given you, which is a danger.

[288] So if I said to you, we want to try and stop your shouting, it never gets you anywhere.

[289] You have to resonate with that.

[290] That's why I can't do it.

[291] You have to say, to me, Steve, that really resonates.

[292] I've got to have evidence.

[293] Yes.

[294] And you have to believe this.

[295] And you can't brainwash your brain at certainty believing.

[296] You've got to experience it and say, this rings true to me. So once you've worked that out and you reinforced it, which it sounds like you've done through your life, then you don't shout.

[297] And it's not that you can't, it's your computer stopping you because the chimp has to listen to those beliefs.

[298] So before it does anything, it can't move.

[299] So let's look at the opposite then.

[300] If someone grew up in a household where they were shouting and they, for whatever reason, gain the evidence that it was an effective way to communicate or whatever, how does someone go about unprogramming that belief?

[301] Well, it's not my job to do that.

[302] So I'll explain what I mean.

[303] I agree with you, to me. Shouting is not very helpful, you know, at all.

[304] However, if somebody, that's not my job to tell people.

[305] I say to them, why would you hold that belief?

[306] And I do have people who say it, because people don't listen unless you shout.

[307] Some people, you have to shout at them.

[308] And so I draw breath because obviously I'm not agreeing, but I'm not going to try and change the mind.

[309] I'm going to challenge them and say, can we challenge that to make sure that's what you believe?

[310] But if they are insistent, there are certain people in my life that shouting works for.

[311] It's not for me to say that.

[312] What I would do then is say, right, let's say it does work.

[313] That's in the short term.

[314] So now we're in the devil in the detail.

[315] Our chimps system is working in the short term.

[316] It does not look at long -term consequence.

[317] So when your human now comes in, your human system will look at rationality.

[318] What's the long -term consequence?

[319] Now, it may be with person A, there's no long -term consequence.

[320] And you think, it doesn't make any difference.

[321] I'm going to shout, right?

[322] They get it.

[323] And we're okay with that.

[324] And I'm not saying that's wrong.

[325] I'm saying it's what they want to do.

[326] However, they might suddenly say with me, actually you're right, with person B, when I shout, there is repercussion on the person, and I'm actually hurting them.

[327] And also, in their eyes, it's demeaning.

[328] They seeming as demeaning myself.

[329] So it's not actually working in the long term.

[330] It's not building a relationship that I want.

[331] So it can be, you tease the devil in the detail out.

[332] You have a blanket by the sound of it, belief that it doesn't matter who it is, you don't shout.

[333] Yeah.

[334] I would agree with that.

[335] However, I'm going to leave you more devil in detail.

[336] You have to be careful because if you add on to that, that shouting is something that's a failure and then now I have a challenge on you.

[337] Because if you think about it, if you then suddenly out of the blue did shout and you're going to now start beating yourself up potentially and thinking.

[338] Yeah, I would.

[339] Yeah.

[340] So that's not that helpful.

[341] So what a better belief I would suggest and see if you resonate is to say if you shout, even though you don't agree with it, because all your beliefs, in my opinion, are right.

[342] If you shout, forgive yourself and say, you know, that is a chimp system and maybe I need to reinforce my computer system because my chimp got out there and I'm not proud of that because actually I don't think that helped.

[343] But I like people to understand that we can only manage the chimp system.

[344] We do not control it.

[345] And if it wants to get the better of us, it can.

[346] So all we can do is keep reinforcing the computer beliefs and strengthen them and you've done it beautifully by having a number of beliefs and then you've almost got this gang of autopilots so if one gets shaken the others come in and that's how the brain will work so I like more than one belief but on the other hand if under circumstances your chimp gets out and you shout I want you to understand that your chimp got out it wasn't you that's not an excuse model you have to apologize if you think you've done wrong but I am seeing it's a skill model which means you says to me now I do not want to shout so you didn't do it however you're responsible you can't just absorb yourself so I always liken it to having a dog I'm a great dog lover if one of my dogs comes in here and bites you I can't just go as my dog the answer is I have to manage this system I have to manage my dog and it's my responsibility 100 % so I work with people to say be kind to yourself Because this system means business, and whatever your system is like, it will break through.

[347] There will be days you do not manage it.

[348] Let's pretend today has been a day where I didn't manage it.

[349] The dog got off the lead and bit somebody, whatever.

[350] You know, I lost my temper, whatever, and I'm reflecting on it thinking, oh, God, you know, an hour's past.

[351] And I'm thinking, God, I wish I hadn't done that.

[352] Yeah.

[353] What can I actively do to prevent it happening again?

[354] How do I reinforce that computer?

[355] Let me go back to the dog, because it's, It's probably the best example.

[356] What you wouldn't do, I hope, is kick the dog.

[357] The dog's doing what the dog does.

[358] You know, the dog doesn't know.

[359] So your job is to say, first, I'm going to apologize to the person because that should not have happened.

[360] I know whatever I need to do, compensate, I do whatever, and apologize.

[361] The second thing is, naturally, I assume you're going to say, well, I need to work on the dog.

[362] I need to learn to train the dog and manage it, so I know exactly how to stop that happening again.

[363] But what I'm not going to do is beat myself up for not being able to manage the dog.

[364] Why is that a bad idea?

[365] Beating yourself up.

[366] Yeah.

[367] Just like, you know, oh God, I'm such an idiot.

[368] I shouldn't have done that.

[369] It's sort of self -evident.

[370] I mean, again, this is the devil in the detail.

[371] If you said to me, you know, when I do that, it makes me feel better just to think, right, I've got to go up myself here.

[372] And there's nothing wrong with that.

[373] But what I'm going to do is draw a line after a certain time.

[374] And then I'm going to say, right, you've had a goat.

[375] yourself, get over it, yeah, let's put that into action now, right?

[376] Then I'm not disapproving.

[377] I think it's self -evident that I'm not going to prove with somebody beating myself and going back to the same thing over and over and over and then escalating that.

[378] So it doesn't just become I can't manage the dog.

[379] I'm an incompetent person, you know, and I get things wrong and everyone else seems to do this.

[380] What's wrong with me?

[381] That's the problem.

[382] It's now going down a very dangerous route.

[383] Is that depositing certain evidence into the computer about you not being self, like worthy, which then is going to make your chimp respond.

[384] Yeah, well, the chimp's going to be irrational.

[385] So when the chimp brain takes over, because it puts our beliefs in as well as we do, so it, for example, the dog one, it will expand on that and say, well, there's something wrong with me. So let's go to you.

[386] You shouted, and then you start saying, you know, I'm not a great person, you know, because in my belief is great people shouldn't be doing that.

[387] And it's okay giving an excuse in, that's my chimp, but it's not good enough.

[388] And I can't allow it to happen again.

[389] And I've done damage to this person, irreparable.

[390] And now you can say how it's starting to escalate.

[391] And you're putting all these beliefs inside your system.

[392] So there are going to be unconscious beliefs that you're carrying with you.

[393] So then you go and meet some friend and those beliefs might come straight in.

[394] Am I going to damage this person?

[395] I'm going to say something stupid again?

[396] I'm going to lose it again?

[397] This is all really destructive and unhelpful.

[398] You know, sometimes I find it difficult to apologise.

[399] Specifically, you know, when you're like in the heat of a situation, you might have had an argument with your partner or whatever else about something tiny.

[400] In that moment, sometimes I find it difficult to apologize.

[401] I think I've gotten 10x better.

[402] I'm thinking about the last sort of confrontation I had with my, with my girlfriend.

[403] And in fact, all I did was listen and then apologized after you should finish speaking, because I genuinely was like, I completely understand.

[404] But I think sometimes over the last 10 years, I just think, why don't you just, what is it that's preventing you from just saying, especially when you know you've done something, which isn't in line with who you want to be or how you want to behave?

[405] Why didn't I just apologize straight away?

[406] What is it?

[407] I've got a a guest because I was like I said everyone's unique so if I work with you I'll say well again we're looking at what beliefs you're holding is do you think apologising is something that's strong or weak that's a good question um it's a good question and I think I'm going to say that my belief on that has changed okay so I think for the first over the last 10 years the first eight years I would have seen it as a weakness and then in the context of my relationship I see it as our biggest strength that I can both now listen in total silence, make someone feel heard and understood and then apologize to them.

[408] I think I see it as this like real superpower that I have that I've developed.

[409] But in the in the eight years where I didn't, I don't feel like I was apologising enough, I definitely saw it as a weakness.

[410] I saw it as admitting defeat.

[411] And that's where I'm going.

[412] So I'm saying to you, it's a shame it took eight years.

[413] Yeah.

[414] And that's why I like to do this work because you look back thinking if I'd learned this eight years ago, it would have made a big difference.

[415] But that may not resonate.

[416] Some might say, well, I don't get, I don't see it as weakness or strength.

[417] So what difference?

[418] So I would try a different tack and say that how important is it that you're happy or that your partner's happy?

[419] Who do you put first?

[420] In the situations where I didn't apologize, I put myself first.

[421] But what do you want?

[422] I think in those situations, I don't, I don't even know.

[423] I want it to be right.

[424] I don't know.

[425] Oh, good, good.

[426] This, I'll leave just finish on that bit and I'll come back to the next one, which is where I think you're coming from and give you a surprise coming here so if somebody said my girlfriend's more important than me i love this girl i don't want to lose this girl and the last thing one that's upset and hurt her it's easy to make an apology yeah and it's easy to recognize i don't want to hurt this person and even if i'm in the right and she's in the wrong it doesn't matter i'm not it's not about winning which is what the chimp brain does it wants to win okay the human wants to resolve the situation so saying i'm really sorry that you're upset and i didn't mean to upset you It doesn't mean you're admitting fault or whatever.

[427] It just means you're trying to say that you're more important than this.

[428] This is trivial.

[429] That's so true.

[430] And so that might resonate with people.

[431] But you might get somebody, which is where you're going, where you say, well, of course, I love her.

[432] But hang on, that's not right.

[433] Because if she's done something that's wrong, and I've reacted to that, she created that problem.

[434] I know I'm wrong to react.

[435] But hang on, I want the apology.

[436] Right.

[437] So that's common.

[438] This is the surprise.

[439] when you look at the neuroscience behind this, you think, oh, that must be my human being rational, logical, but it actually isn't.

[440] When we look at, and this why I called it the chimps system, when we look at chimpanzees, they operate with the chimps system.

[441] They do have a human system, but it's quite primitive, which is where I got the analogy.

[442] So I looked at the Great Apes back in the 1990s, and the publication came out in 2018 for the people of academic to show the chimpanzee and human think very differently to the other great apes.

[443] We're very different.

[444] There's a different way of approaching things and interpreting.

[445] So we do have the same system with chimps.

[446] So that chimp system is the same.

[447] And the way it works is on fairness.

[448] So experiments with chimpanzees, and I'm sure you find them on YouTube, where they do unfairness to chimpanzees and even basic, like cappuccine monkeys, demonstrate the same thing.

[449] They must have fairness.

[450] So whenever we demand fairness, we're actually operating for chimp system, which is emotionally based.

[451] the human can accept on fairness the human gets over it and says get a life you know stop trying to deal with trivia and get fairness but our chimp system demands fairness I bought your book for one of my best friends recently when I say recently I mean in the last seven days and I said make sure you read that over the Christmas break and they said do you know the best part of the book for me she absolutely loved the book she said there was one sentence in it in the book which made her go which is where you say in the Chimp Paradox that life isn't fair yeah and you actually I wrote it down earlier on because because she said that to me you reference it as an obvious thing you say have realistic expectations and remind yourself of the obvious life is not fair stress will happen things will go wrong for some reason that sentence resonated with her really profoundly because I think the friction she had in her life was expecting fairness and that I push this I'm pushing my next book now.

[452] Oh, this is, I mean, this one's...

[453] A path through the jungle is, to me, is a step up.

[454] No, it is.

[455] The reason I did that one was to try and...

[456] This is exactly what I'm saying.

[457] I threw all that lot out as the Chimp Paradox, to see, these are concepts.

[458] And she's giving what I've experienced doing talks over the last 20 years now to the public and various organizations is people come out of that and everybody picks something different.

[459] It's what resonates with you.

[460] So had I been working one -to -one with her, I do this like fishing expedition to see what's resonating.

[461] and then we expand on that.

[462] So that's why I've gone into much more detail on this next book to say, right, if these bits resonate, he's the science behind it this time and references, if you're going to read it up.

[463] But if you don't, he's the practicalities.

[464] So that's much more of an investigative.

[465] How do you use this now?

[466] And what she's really doing, and I've tried to push this in the next book, is to say, what she's saying there is, you know what, my first step is acceptance.

[467] And that is what winners do.

[468] Successful people go, you know, it doesn't mean accept.

[469] and swirl over, it means let me start from what's in front of me and stop fighting it and then work with it and then see what I can do with it.

[470] Whereas when you look at the chimp brain, which generally is not as successful, can be, what it does is it says, I don't want what's in front of me, I want it different.

[471] This is not what should happen.

[472] So it spends its time getting aggravated rather than accepting and moving straight into plan of action.

[473] So we often spend a lot of time agitating about what's happened or what's in front of us instead of saying it's happened.

[474] One of my favorite podcast episodes that I recorded with a guy called Mo Gowda, he said to me, we're unhappy when our expectations of how life should be going are unmet.

[475] Well, that's why when I've gone in, let's say, in the new book, I've tried to say, how do these systems approach life?

[476] What I've explained in that is the chimp system writes the script first before we leave the house.

[477] So it will say things like, I'm going to drive to work today, and I'm going to get them in 30 minutes.

[478] There'll be no hold -ups.

[479] So you can imagine the second there's something in the way, it explodes.

[480] Because that's what it does.

[481] It reacts.

[482] Whereas the human system doesn't.

[483] What the human system goes out with zero expectation, but I hope to get them in 30 minutes.

[484] That's a world of difference.

[485] And then when I find there's a traffic jam, it doesn't react, it responds.

[486] So the two systems are very different.

[487] And if we can learn how to go into human mode, then we set off for work, there's a hold -up.

[488] We don't have any more.

[489] emotional reaction, we have a response which is accept, there's the word, accept what's in front me, but then follow through with a plan.

[490] So in the book, I always say, first step is accept, but immediately say, right, what's the plan?

[491] Because that's what humans do.

[492] The human system wants solutions.

[493] It wants resolution.

[494] It wants to move on.

[495] The chimp system wants to express emotion and then remove the problem.

[496] Not solve it.

[497] There's a difference.

[498] Just remove it.

[499] Ignore it.

[500] displace it, pretend it hasn't happened.

[501] That's not ideal because it tends to come back and bite us.

[502] How much does, what role does trauma play, like early childhood trauma play in how we respond in situations?

[503] Well, now we're really getting deep.

[504] It depends on, again, I'm being black and white.

[505] If someone has a really bad trauma at childhood, it can have repercussions throughout life.

[506] Because now the circuits in your brain are developing.

[507] So if you have a really traumatic event, and not necessarily what we would define as traumatic, it's what the child defines.

[508] So I'm being a bit facetious here.

[509] For example, if it's got its favourite sweets and somebody steals them, that could be a traumatic childhood event.

[510] At that moment in time, the impact was so significant that it has repercussions.

[511] It's damaging the circuits.

[512] It might, for example, perceive that as nothing in life is safe.

[513] Anything I have can be removed.

[514] However, most children get over it in seconds.

[515] You know, but it depends on the child and what stage they're at and what the circumstances are at that point.

[516] Somebody else might have child abuse, for example, which is much more likely to have repercussions throughout life.

[517] So, but we still get children who get child abuse and have no repercussions.

[518] So it isn't a definite black and white, it's probabilities.

[519] Is it, the way that I've come to understand it is almost like we're wearing our own sunglasses, which is a metaphor for like interpretation.

[520] So me and my brother, we could be identical.

[521] twins, we go through the same experience, but we're wearing different sunglasses, so we interpret that experience differently.

[522] We deposit evidence about what that experience means into our computer.

[523] You're absolutely right, and it all hangs on, for example, somebody, like your parent might suddenly say, oh, you're just an idiot, you know, but something might have happened just before that where you've gone to school and you've got one out of 10 and you were bottom of the spelling test, and you've come home, and then your father, you've done something at home and made a mistake, and he says you're an idiot and the two together get emotionally tangled and that then damages the circuits whereas normally if you come on you just got nine out of ten for the spelling come top of the class and he says you're an idiot you just bat it off and think well i got nine to ten so therefore the brain doesn't pick it up so again i'm trying to give examples of it so complicated what i would say is it's hard to find these because they happen often very young in life and the emotional aspects and our memories emotionally and how we formulate things, have about a three -year start on the human circuit, which doesn't come in for three years, approximately.

[524] So that's why we have no memories of childhood.

[525] We can't remember before the age of two, because it's not working.

[526] So our emotional memory begins in fetal life.

[527] So before we even born, the emotional memory is starting to work out what trauma is and react to that trauma.

[528] So we react to the mother's heartbeat, for example.

[529] And again, every fetus is different on the spectrum.

[530] And then we follow that through and therefore the machine can be damaged early in life.

[531] It can be damaged at any point.

[532] And then we have something which I've then tried to give a terminology of a goblin to.

[533] So a gremlin is a belief or an experience you can process and actually get rid of.

[534] Whereas a goblin is something which has really damaged the circuits.

[535] So you get people often who have very low self -esteem and that's going to continue throughout life.

[536] Now, I'm certainly not saying we shouldn't try and get rid of that.

[537] Generally, we can.

[538] But it could be, they always have moments of low self -esteem.

[539] And what they need to do is accept that they're always going to appear, but I'm going to have a way of dealing with them and then going back onto a much more positive footing.

[540] So sometimes we have beliefs within us that are just too hard to remove, and they may have come from traumatic experiences.

[541] What I'm saying is I'm not rolling over and saying, oh, well, this is damaged goods.

[542] I'm saying, let's learn if they do raise their heads, let's learn how to put them in a box, stop them from having impact in my life today, and then work forward from that.

[543] And again, that's a skill to do.

[544] And it just needs people to learn how to do that.

[545] So we can take down gremlins, but we can't.

[546] Goblins, you have to accept.

[547] And the reason I brought that terminology is, sadly, I've seen over the years when I've been in an educational role as a doctor, I've trained doctors and clinical psychologists, nursing staff, to how we deal with emotions and what I've seen distressed is when you get well -meaning therapist of any kind and they're trying to change something that can't be changed and you have to say you know the circuit's damaged and rather than try and change it let's learn to deal with it in a very constructive way but not put that pressure on the person to do something which we're probably never going to achieve so I'd always say try I'd always say let's try and process an event and let's try moving on so they remove it So great if you can get rid of low self -esteem.

[548] But if it keeps raising its head, let's say, stop putting pressure on that person and work with it.

[549] You're still try and remove it.

[550] But there's a point you say to them, look, let's accept it, but let's not let it take over.

[551] Let's learn how to put it in a box.

[552] So it's a bit like a virus in a computer system exactly the same.

[553] We accept it's damaged, but we can box it in.

[554] And if it does raise it head, we mop it up again.

[555] it's interesting because I from doing this podcast I used to believe that your traumas you know there's early experiences that define you and the evidence it creates could be all of them could be eradicated with like some form of therapy or treatment the more I've done this podcast and sat with exceptional people who have you know have exceptional stories and some in many cases have exceptional traumas I've gone the other way and realized that even if they've had all the therapy they've gone and done ayahuasca they've had whatever they've had it's still some traumas, some of the deeper, earlier traumas, never seem to disappear.

[556] And so my stance has changed.

[557] And in recent podcasts, I've been saying that there are instances where some things just, it seems like people just can't overcome certain things.

[558] Is there a age group where goblins, the traumas that we can't seem to overcome the evidence or whatever it is, the damage to the circuitry, is there, does it tend to happen earlier?

[559] Yeah.

[560] The younger we are when we're developing the brain, the brain keeps developing up to the age of around 30.

[561] So it's young to me at my age as anyone under 30.

[562] Okay, so I'm 30 now.

[563] Right, you're just still, you're just about done.

[564] Okay.

[565] Some people finish, we know that mature is the final sort of like bits to the brain mature, which is actually the rationality of the brain.

[566] It matures around 25 to 30, but there are quite a lot of, particularly more men, who keep going to around 32, but by then you're out of the oven.

[567] So wherever you've got, you're finished.

[568] I agree with what you're saying is then you accept, this is the way my system is.

[569] So let me manage my system instead of trying to make my system do something it can't do.

[570] So I hope I'm not coming across saying death roll over.

[571] I'm not saying that.

[572] But the reason that I did it was they're also the therapists.

[573] It's really hard for the doctor, the nurse, the psychologist.

[574] It's really hard to see them struggling to try and change something or help someone, and it's not working.

[575] And that can damage them to think, what's wrong with me?

[576] I've seen it.

[577] Yeah, all right.

[578] I've got a friend that's a therapist, and I've seen her crying.

[579] Yeah.

[580] Because she couldn't change something.

[581] And that's why I brought this out and said to the therapist, look, stop.

[582] You know, you review what you're doing.

[583] There are their own professionals, but as someone who tries to teach therapists and people are working in this field, to say, neuroscientifically, there are damages to the circuit.

[584] So rather than say we're going to change it, you've tried, and you've probably done a great job, because again, most people are really good.

[585] Most therapists I've worked alongside have been excellent, you know, whatever their profession is.

[586] But don't beat yourself up if you're struggling with someone.

[587] It may be you are hitting the nail on the head, but exactly what you've just said, we're not going to move this person.

[588] So stop worrying about it and say, let's try managing it first, whatever's raising its head.

[589] And then if we manage it, then we might still try processing.

[590] but now we're not defeated.

[591] I have to say that that's great advice for therapists, but it's also just great advice for someone in a family unit or in a relationship who has a partner or a loved one who is struggling with something where the circuitry might be irreparably damaged and they're destroying the relationship with that person because they're trying to change them.

[592] Exactly.

[593] And the devil is in the detail again because there are other elements to this because another factor is time.

[594] We know that the brain will try and repair itself, even of emotional scars, it will try and do that.

[595] So there can sometimes just be time.

[596] So we know like in grief reactions, you have to allow the brain time and the brain will process things in its own time.

[597] And that's a piece of string.

[598] Generally, in a serious loss or change of job or relationship gone or you've lost someone because they've passed on, usually we say around three months is intense, then a 12 months is still bad.

[599] But some people, it can be 10 years.

[600] And there is no normal grief.

[601] there's just normal grief for you.

[602] And then if it gets stuck, then again, this is where the clinicians will come in, if you have pathological grief.

[603] And this can be due to anything.

[604] It's often a belief system again in the computer that's stopping you being able to process something.

[605] And on that point of low self -esteem seems to be incredibly common.

[606] Yeah.

[607] Confidence issues, low self -esteem, people believing like they are not enough.

[608] I remember I sat with a therapist called Marissa Pippia.

[609] yeah Marissa Pia and she said I do you know what Steve I've I don't think I've had a patient come to me that believed they were enough whether they're an Olympic star or they're a business person at the heart of them there was some kind of sort of deeper self -esteem issue how does one go about working with someone who's got you know clearly serious self -esteem issues confidence issues I'm going to be almost paradoxically and controversially almost it's to say you know But if you look at the neuroscience of our brain and what it's trying to do, the chimp system is naturally and healthily low self -esteem.

[610] That is the natural chimp system.

[611] And we see this not just in our system in humans, in chimpanzees.

[612] So the fear that they're not up to it is inbuilt.

[613] So if you have a fear that you're not as good as other people and you've got low self -esteem and then you start searching for evidence and you'll find it.

[614] You'll find it.

[615] because if you compare yourself to anyone who's excelling, you've found it.

[616] That is the chimp system trying to help you.

[617] It sounds paradoxical.

[618] What it's saying is, don't put yourself in a vulnerable place where you beat your chest and say, look, I'm strong because you could get attacked.

[619] It's better to keep your head down, wear a tin helmet, and hope it goes away.

[620] So that's how the chimp system works.

[621] So I say if someone comes in with low self -esteem, the first step to me is accept.

[622] This is absolutely healthy and natural, but it's unhelpful.

[623] so it's natural unhealthy so celebrate you've got this amazingly healthy machine but what it's giving you is unhealthy so what you say is well why would it give me this and the answer is so that you don't get shot down you don't put your head up but that doesn't mean you can't start saying right well what can I do to gain self -esteem where it's reasonable self -esteem and then you start saying for example don't compare yourself to others it's not a healthy thing to do even while chimpanzees do this they have a hierarchy, and they will compare and they'll jostle for position.

[624] So we're built to do similar.

[625] We jostle for position.

[626] And sport is one way we see it blatant, all right?

[627] And we enjoy that, provided we retain it as sport and not start going self -esteem on it.

[628] So we muddle the two up.

[629] And again, in, say, the typical everyday person.

[630] Social media.

[631] Yeah.

[632] Oh, well, that's a disaster area.

[633] Because again, what our chimps do is they want to be loved by everybody.

[634] And the evidence is quite strong that if I am your friend, and I like you.

[635] Okay?

[636] And then you've got another friend who's not keen on you at times and you'll actually give more attention to the person who's not keen on you than me. It's facts.

[637] And that's what we do because our chimp is based to say, I've got to be loved by everyone.

[638] So you just say, well, Steve likes him, I'm not going to bother with him.

[639] But if it's Brian or whatever, I'll try and curry favour and you try and please these people.

[640] Yeah.

[641] And if you look, it's really unhealthy to do that and it's not rational.

[642] Instead of saying, let me create a world because I'm not going to work my chimpsism, I'm going by a human, which says, I value my friends who I want to invest in who do respect and love me. They're the people I'm getting my time to.

[643] And people who find me a bit, you know, maybe not so good or don't like me. Well, that's up to them.

[644] You know, they're not in my world.

[645] They're outside my world.

[646] So if we look at that, that's how the human system works.

[647] It builds its own inner world and says, this is how I'm going to survive the world.

[648] But social media can be a disaster because then we look to say, well, who doesn't like me and what comments, and we give them undue attention.

[649] And that's a natural, healthy thing for your chimp to do when it's trying to get everyone inside, but it's a ridiculous thing to do, and it's unhealthy.

[650] Is that because the chimp cares about status?

[651] Yeah, because in a troop, a natural...

[652] And again, not everything that chimpanzees in the wild do refer to us, but some things do overlap, and we find that a chimpanzee will always try and curry favour with the powerful chimps, because it doesn't want excluding.

[653] Excluded chimp is in trouble.

[654] I mean, it's going to die.

[655] Because it's unlikely another troop will take it.

[656] And it's likely a leopard will get it.

[657] It's got to sleep sometime.

[658] But if you think of us as humans, we tend to see this.

[659] So you particularly seeing teenagers, they try and make everybody their troop.

[660] So anyone who's rejecting them is fearful.

[661] And to the chimp, it's life and death.

[662] So to our inner system which is chimp driven in the same way, emotionally, if we get rejected, it potentially could be kicked out.

[663] And we know that if you look at the neuroscience of the brain, particularly in teenagers, it's extremely sensitive to peer pressure.

[664] It's built at that point to start forming peer groups.

[665] So if somebody says, I don't like your hairstyle, I don't like your socks, or even worse, I don't like you, then that can be extremely damaging to the circuits.

[666] That can create damage.

[667] So we have to try and get to young children and say, right, we need to teach them.

[668] You don't have to please everybody.

[669] You please people on your terms with your morals and your values, But you self -assess.

[670] You decide whether you're good enough.

[671] You decide what's important to you.

[672] But if we don't teach them at young stage, as a teenager, we go outside that, and then social media becomes extremely, extremely dangerous.

[673] You see that in schools.

[674] I went undercover in a school, and it was funny.

[675] I was on the playground, and I was looking out, and I saw all of the boys had the same haircut, this kind of weird mullet thing.

[676] And all of them had the underarmor backpack.

[677] I couldn't believe it.

[678] I was like, they are identical.

[679] This group of 20 lads.

[680] who were all together, perfect mullets and this under armour backpack.

[681] I think at the time when Anthony Joshua, who was the great boxer, was an under armour ambassador, I think the brand was becoming really cool.

[682] So, and that made me think about how we seek to conform so much at that age, and how much I did.

[683] I was wearing the skinny jeans, if that was in, and the Fred Perry top, then I was listening to the rap music and then...

[684] I think that's really important to do, isn't it?

[685] Because, again, if we got a child who under the age of 10 wandered away from parents and didn't really care.

[686] That's very disconcerting.

[687] They would be able to build a community, right?

[688] The child should be dependent on the parent.

[689] Right.

[690] You know, if you get a teenager who's outside the peer group, we start getting concerned.

[691] It just means there's something desperately wrong.

[692] Some people are more isolate than others.

[693] It's on a spectrum.

[694] But it is worrying.

[695] So you like to see teenagers together.

[696] But in order to be accepted, you do have common ground.

[697] So our chimps always look for common ground or common experiences.

[698] So if I wear orange socks and I'm the gang leader, then you wear orange socks and now we're all on orange socks and if I just decide they're out then everyone starts wearing them that is pretty healthy as a teenager because they're peer group bonding we hope they go through that stage into what we call individualisation so around 17 neuroscientifically the brain does change almost to the day for most people so by 1890 and we're starting to individualise and that means we decide whether I want to really wear orange socks we get individual identities However, again, a lot of research, obviously it's contradictory at times, but most of it shows that around that age we have the leaders come out, which is about one in four people genetically are going to individualise and decide I'm just going to set my own agendas and I like what music I like and do what I like.

[699] But about three and four are semi -dependent throughout their lives.

[700] So they'll always look to some strong figure to bond with them.

[701] And that tends to be a bit insecure.

[702] people that have this low self -esteem we talked about a second ago are they more likely to become what we call people -pleases yes because again they're trying to curry favors so that's one way of coping with low self -esteem so again everyone's different so some people might close themselves down and they'll go into their own little world and just not engage and they don't go and join a new club or form a new hobby or make new friends because they just haven't got that confidence so they deal the coping strategy is to just close down And my answer is if as long as you're happy with that, I'm not going to dispute it.

[703] But if you're not and you want to get out, let's get you out there.

[704] But everyone has different coping strategies.

[705] The next one you've mentioned commonly is to try and please people.

[706] Never say no or always say yes.

[707] Make sure it doesn't matter how much it puts you out.

[708] Never speak up.

[709] Don't be assertive.

[710] It's critical not to be assertive.

[711] So this is their chimp system saying if you do all this, people will like you more.

[712] Sadly, the reality is they don't.

[713] people like assertive confident people they don't like people who suck up to them tends to be then there's a real danger now I'm going into forensics somebody who's in that position where they're desperate trying to please is really vulnerable to abuse so they're going to get someone who finds them and then they'll use this against them and then it really is dangerous so when you look at that my gut feel as well as logic would be to get them out of that and say look be very careful if you're going to lean on someone, don't lean on them by trying to please them.

[714] Lean on them as a friend who's there to look after you.

[715] That's building you up, not controlling you.

[716] Is that what you tend to find an abusive relationships?

[717] Yeah.

[718] There's usually very low self -esteem.

[719] I mean, years ago, when I did a lot of work in general, adult psychiatry and hospital medicine, I would see quite a lot, not just women, but mainly women, who would be, have such low self -esteem that they would subject themselves to someone who was really abusing them.

[720] And there was a book out at the time, which I used to recommend, which I think is excellent, written by a woman, and it was entitled Women Who Loved Too Much.

[721] I read through this book and I thought she'd written it, in my opinion, it was excellent.

[722] So I used to hand them that and say, I think this is better than me as a man trying to help you to get self -esteem.

[723] I can do this, but I think if you understand where she's coming from, and she's saying exactly what you're saying, you know, the reason you're clinging to these guys is because you have such low self -esteem, you're actually saying to them, give me my self -esteem, and they're abusing you.

[724] So you've got to build your self -esteem.

[725] That's so, you're right.

[726] But there are lots of ways people do.

[727] Some of them are not so blatant.

[728] So some people don't recognize they've got low self -esteem until you point out, for example, they just don't know how to be assertive.

[729] And if you think about it, if you've got reasonable self -esteem, then you would say, I have the right to speak my mind and also to say people, please don't do that.

[730] It offends me or it upsets me. And this is what I'd like you to do, which is what assertiveness is.

[731] So again, sometimes it's subtle that you think, oh, wow, low self -esteem presents with different faces.

[732] And again, that's my job to help people to tease out and think, ah, this is low self -esteem or it isn't.

[733] I want to figure out how to build self -esteem, but can low self -esteem also manifest as the very apparently successful guy or girl who has got a mansion and a Lamborghini and his head to toe and designer brands because I know those people as well I think at one point I was one of those people if I'm being full disclosure but is that a form of low self -esteem?

[734] Again it's what I put under a poor coping strategy and what you're trying to say is look if I keep elevating myself then I'll suddenly feel good because people see me as being this wealthy person or this successful person and it's interesting even when in sport one of the questions ask is why are you doing this because it's great to do sport I'm not a good sport, but why are you doing it?

[735] And often the answers which do lead to success but can have consequence are I need to prove to myself that I can do something.

[736] And that's probably, I would have said, not an ideal reason to do it.

[737] I'm not saying it doesn't work, but I think the long -term consequence is you won't stop at the end of sport.

[738] You'll keep doing that.

[739] That's the risk.

[740] Or someone who says, I need to demonstrate to other people, how good I am.

[741] Again, these can be very successful beliefs while you're in sport.

[742] but coming out of it, it can lead to danger.

[743] So again, it's not for me to say change it, it's for me to question it and say, is there an alternative way to succeeding sport?

[744] And I've met plenty of people who say, it's only sport, but I love it, commit to process and get on with it and succeed fantastic, and they're in a really great place.

[745] So again, it's not for me to say, it's for me to try and tease it out of people.

[746] I think sometimes, I think even with myself, I've wondered and worried that if the, the insecurities I had from being a child, you know, with the only black family in the neighbourhood, we were the poor family with the smashed up house.

[747] Though that insecurity, I think, has been a driving force for me. I think it was much the reason that I cared so much about getting money and status and material success.

[748] And then I think there was a point, I think I wrote about this in my book, where I ponded that.

[749] If I lose that, do I lose my ambition and my drive?

[750] That's a good point.

[751] It's interesting that, I'm sorry, you experienced that.

[752] Oh, no. because it didn't sound great.

[753] And again, it was a driving force that eventually led you to being successful in some sense.

[754] So it's not altogether negative, but there's a really key point here.

[755] It's like when people have a driving force in sport.

[756] I think it's great to have a driving force wherever it is, provided you can stop in your tracks and look at perspective and say, you know what, without this, I'm still a decent person and have good self -esteem within yourself.

[757] So I think I'm not against these driving force, as long as you can contain them and they don't contain you.

[758] There's a difference.

[759] So I think if you said, right, I want to try and prove that I can make this because I'm from a poor family.

[760] I'm black and the only one in the neighbourhood and I'm going to show you we can succeed here as people in this position.

[761] And that's true of a lot of minority groups.

[762] I don't think it's ideal.

[763] I'd much rather, if I'd met you then, say, can you see yourself as being you?

[764] And who cares what the rest of the world thinks?

[765] Let's make you and your values.

[766] And that could have driven you.

[767] if you say, well, what if I suddenly see myself as being me, and I don't see this as me being poor and I need to prove myself, will that not lose my force?

[768] The answer is not really, your force is driven by emotion at that point.

[769] So that's your trim driving you, right?

[770] Which I'm not saying is right or wrong.

[771] I'm just saying that's what it's doing.

[772] But is there a way the human can drive you?

[773] And the answer is yes, by your values and saying I'd like to do things that I think are really valuable to me. And it could be I want to earn money and I want to help other people and I want a good life.

[774] There's nothing wrong with that.

[775] I don't think there's anything wrong, but that's for you to decide.

[776] But then you can have a driving force and you won't lose it.

[777] In sport, I deal with people who I try and get them to put sport in perspective.

[778] So my phrase is always, it's tidly winks.

[779] You know, life is tidly winks.

[780] But let's do it with a passion.

[781] But at any point, if we're not doing well and we make a bad move, let's be able to laugh and say it's tidly winks.

[782] Are you doing that to detach it from their self -esteem?

[783] It doesn't, yeah, it doesn't have to be with self -esteem.

[784] That's completely different to me. You've chosen to put your self -esteem on what you can achieve, which is what the chimp does, or who it is, or how people perceive it, or what it's got, what values, valuables it's got, you know, money.

[785] That's a way of dealing with it, but it's not a very sound one, because what happens is you still keep going.

[786] Because deep down what I've experienced, I don't know whether you'd resonate.

[787] If I met you at heart to heart behind locked doors, at that point, you say, I'm not happy because I'm aware of what I'm doing.

[788] And I know it's superficial.

[789] Oh, 100%.

[790] And that's what I've experienced.

[791] I've worked with the extremes of each spectrum with people who are struggling with finances and people who are extraordinarily wealthy.

[792] But the bottom line is at the end of the day when you're back in your own house, in your own room, you're living with yourself.

[793] And that's why I say, do you want to look at that?

[794] Because if you can live with yourself comfortably and be at peace of mind, then nothing's going to get to.

[795] you.

[796] The world will be a much better place.

[797] So when I think back to that time when I feel like I was most driven by that pursuit, which was before I had attained the things that I was aiming to attain.

[798] Because I think sometimes when you attain those things, they act as pretty profound evidence that you were aiming for the wrong thing.

[799] But if I look through, the thing that I think would make me unhappy was that all the things I sacrificed because of my pursuit for like materials for money or material success.

[800] So not having relationships or friendships or social connection, sacrificing all of those things created like an emptiness.

[801] You know, just working seven days a week in an office.

[802] And then thinking that, you know, this was a noble cause because it would make me rich.

[803] It was actually the things that I, well, I think it was the things that I sacrificed that led me to feeling a little bit empty inside.

[804] I wouldn't necessarily say I was unhappy, but I was definitely, it was unsustainable for sure.

[805] I was definitely heading to a bad place.

[806] like I could see that coming I'd seen a couple of my friends actually who were doing the same thing at the time end up in bad places on medication having panic attacks and drinking a lot of alcohol too much alcohol so I could see myself heading to a bad place but I think again I don't think we should see it's black and white things shades of grey again I'm not makes clear I'm not against people earning money and having great possessions and holidays because that will obviously give them some pleasure and happiness I'm not against I'm just saying alongside that let's look at the other aspects which you're neglecting.

[807] Yeah.

[808] So do both.

[809] Just get a perspective that that's going to help me or my chimp to feel happy, but actually what's going to make me feel good?

[810] Now, some people will say, I'm happy.

[811] I've got my money and I've got my car.

[812] It's not for me to say, oh, wow, well about your values.

[813] I'm not, who am I to do that?

[814] What I'm saying is my experience has been with a lot of people I work with, you're resonating with what I find, that behind locked doors they're saying there's an emptiness.

[815] There's something like you're saying, I'm sacrificing things that mean a lot to me. and I want these great friends and I want to have a meaning in my life I want purpose I want my values defining I want to be able to live with my values and so I say to people could just get a balance just tell me what do you need what do you want and let's get both of these things in position you come to learn like I think I thought that I didn't need those things because I thought I was some anomaly I didn't think I needed the like fundamentals of human needs I didn't think I needed a connection I thought all of these things where you could take it or leave it But the longer you've run that experiment, the sooner you'll find out that you two are human.

[816] But again, if you try and give some context to this, when you're sort of 19 to 25 roughly, you're generally searching for a partner and your brain is telling you, look at your best.

[817] Yeah.

[818] You know, otherwise you're not going to get anybody.

[819] So therefore, you're wanting this admiration, you're wanting this status.

[820] And that's because that's nature driving.

[821] Just say, if you're the best, that's who they'll pick.

[822] They're not going to pick someone who's not the best.

[823] Right.

[824] So we're driven and then we do this comparison with other people, which can drive us on or it can cause incredible depressive feelings and then low self -esteem.

[825] So again, I think if we can help people to understand that's normal and healthy, but it's unhealthy if you don't address the rest.

[826] So in saying that we're not all going to look like tiles on this world, you know, and if that's what you're aiming to do, then you're going to fail because you'll always see a bigger tarsen or a better miss world.

[827] It doesn't matter.

[828] And I think that can be a faulty status.

[829] in life.

[830] But at that age group, you're meant to be doing that.

[831] Whereas once you start going beyond that, either you've got a partner or you start to realize it's a bit superficialness.

[832] And so what you're doing is maturing into the 30s, not everyone.

[833] Most people mature to thinking, this is empty.

[834] This is not a good place to be.

[835] And it's not going to last.

[836] And also you remember you're aging.

[837] So you know, you look in the mirror and suddenly think, wow, that wasn't what I used to see.

[838] And then if you're not wise, you start trying to be something you're not, so you're trying to get yourself 10 years younger.

[839] And that can become an embarrassment.

[840] So again, but it's up to people what they want to do, but I'm saying the natural development of the brain in the 30s is to mature you.

[841] As I've said, it finishes, now it really matures.

[842] And then in your 40s, you do see life differently.

[843] So as you develop, your brain matures, and it will see things differently.

[844] I always joke with people and say, you know when you're getting middle age because you buy a bird table.

[845] And you can't believe many people resonate or you go to the garden centre on a Sunday.

[846] But that doesn't mean you can't do that at 19 and it doesn't mean you have to do it at 40.

[847] I'm just saying we recognize that what it's symbolizing is I'm starting to look at more aesthetics in my life now and not chasing after a mega career.

[848] I'm not chasing after wealth.

[849] I'm saying, look, there's a point where you've got enough.

[850] And there are other the things.

[851] There's quality of life now.

[852] And for a lot of people, they start tuning into things like nature.

[853] So it's not that surprising.

[854] They've got the garden centre.

[855] You know, I'm not saying that negatively at all.

[856] All right.

[857] I've got my bird table.

[858] Yeah, we just put my girlfriend's dad a bird box with a camera in it.

[859] There you go.

[860] But the point is at this age, more people are more likely to appreciate that than when you're 18.

[861] Of course, yeah.

[862] But we're not saying that, you know, I'm not trying to put people in boxes.

[863] I'm trying to say, let's look at how the brain develops, but learn what works for you.

[864] But it's good to know that your brain is maturing all the time, and you will move.

[865] You will move ground, whether you like not, your brain will mature as well as your physical body.

[866] I've always, I've always wondered why at 23, 24 years old, I would go to nightclubs and spend a ridiculous amount of money on champagne bottles with sparklers on them to try and impress people, whereas now, in my 30 -year -old mind, I look at that behaviour and go, I don't even want to go to nightclubs at all period anymore.

[867] But 23, 24 -year -old Steve, which isn't that long ago.

[868] It's only like six years ago.

[869] That's all I look forward to.

[870] That's all I wanted to do.

[871] And it's funny in just six years how my interest can seem to be so profoundly different.

[872] And you know, when I was 23, 24, 25, I always thought about like older people, like 30, 40, 50 year olds.

[873] Why aren't they coming to nightclubs?

[874] Like, why aren't they here?

[875] They don't know how to have any fun.

[876] That'll never happen to me. I'll be in this club when I'm 45.

[877] And I guess looking at the brain kind of explains why that.

[878] Yeah.

[879] And there are exceptions.

[880] Don't forget.

[881] There are.

[882] Of course, yeah.

[883] But it's even like with music, you know, when you're teenagers, generally it's a big feature in most people's lives.

[884] And in the 20s it is, but it starts to diminish.

[885] So you don't find people in the 40s and 50s.

[886] You can, but most people have moved on.

[887] And they say, you think you're going to be into music forever.

[888] And then you suddenly realize, actually, it's loud.

[889] And that's when you think, oh, my goodness, what's happening here?

[890] But, I mean, this is a natural progression.

[891] you know but then again I love it if you get somebody who's in their 60s and still into pop music and that's great you know I'm not saying that's something wrong but I'm saying there is a general trend and you're experiencing this so I think putting it back to my world is that's why I say the brain's doing the same thing so we go through these stages and we mention about self -esteem which is really important in the peer group really important unfortunately they get self -esteem by comparison generally and by admiration and possessions and then as you get into your 20s we start to change and hopefully if people mature and start tuning into their mind by the 30s and 40s we're matured enough to start looking at our values and what's important to us in our life such as friendships so if i'm 30 odd you know and i've got low self -esteem i'm you know i'm 33 got low self -esteem and i came to you where would you begin with trying to help and that low self -esteem was manifesting in abusive relationships, bad work relationships, very negative sort of feelings about myself and maybe even some impulsive behaviours.

[892] You know, I'm eating too much or I don't know, whatever.

[893] Where would you start with me?

[894] Okay.

[895] The first, I mean, just so people say, oh, wow, that's a strange start point.

[896] I'm a doctor, so the first is make sure you're actually okay.

[897] I'm okay.

[898] Because if someone were presenting with this, it could be in depression and that can present in many ways.

[899] Typically, it's low mood and loss of pleasure and everything and loss of energy.

[900] But that doesn't have to be.

[901] So I mustn't miss that.

[902] So I would make sure your mind is not ill, but don't need treatment.

[903] Now we assume that this is longstanding.

[904] And what you've done is what you're describing is a lot of maladaptive coping strategies.

[905] So I eat too much, which is probably comfort eating, or it's just habitual stuff that you're just not, you know, or it could be got so low self -esteem.

[906] I've seen this.

[907] You're almost punishing yourself.

[908] You know, I don't deserve to eat.

[909] well and I don't deserve to eat the right things.

[910] So I deserve to be overweight or I deserve to look like this.

[911] So that could be the bottom it.

[912] So I have to start, my starting point is an exploration.

[913] But the key to this would be to move all that to one side if you're in a reasonable place where you can actually communicate.

[914] If not, I let you express it all.

[915] It's important you get it off your chest.

[916] If you've got it, you think, I don't need to do that.

[917] What I do is what I've seen the book here.

[918] In a path of jungle, I explain the starting point is get a blank piece of paper and write down who you want to be.

[919] What behaviours do you want to have?

[920] Let's define what you want, not what you don't want, not what you're experiencing.

[921] Don't start with a treacle.

[922] I call that the treacle.

[923] Start with a blank piece of paper.

[924] And then write down the person you want to be.

[925] I want to be really confident.

[926] I want to have a girlfriend or a boyfriend.

[927] I want to get married.

[928] I want to have kids.

[929] I want to work out every day.

[930] I want to eat really good food.

[931] Right.

[932] So what you're describing now is the human system.

[933] The great news is, and I ask you with the characteristics you've got.

[934] So I want to be calm, I want to be happy, I want to be confident.

[935] That is you.

[936] That is you.

[937] How'd you know it's me?

[938] Right.

[939] Because if we were, we can't surgically remove interference neuroscientifically, which we can see on functional MRI scanners.

[940] If we remove the chimp and computer system, then you're completely in control of yourself.

[941] So you would choose to be calm.

[942] You would choose to be confident.

[943] So therefore that's you.

[944] The human system can choose.

[945] what happens is when you choose to be calm the chimp system interferes or the computer interferes and throws shows to the world someone who's not calm so it's very important to recognise who you are before we start so now we've got a guy you're not going to write no one ever writes anxious no one they say no what I want to be is calm collected a good friend have integrity that is you if we didn't have interference in the machine so it's very crucial this is the biggest point in the book, the biggest point, is to define yourself because now you've got self -esteem can rise just on that alone.

[946] Once you've grasped that, you say, wow, when I'm presenting to the world is interference.

[947] It's not me. If I didn't have this machine, I would not have anxiety.

[948] Because that's the system that you say in the human system can't do anxiety.

[949] It's not built to do that.

[950] It's built to be rational and calm.

[951] But what it wants to do and how I want to present is a choice.

[952] The chimp has no choice.

[953] The computer has no choice.

[954] The computer is programmed, but these are interfering and presenting to the world, someone who's not you.

[955] So it's very important to grasp that concept.

[956] That's my starting point.

[957] Now we've grasped that, we build on that.

[958] So now I know who you are.

[959] I'll say this.

[960] Sometimes when you're with a friend and you've been chatting a while and maybe it's got late in the evening, and you've got a lot off your chest and you've discussed, you calm down.

[961] And sometimes the real you presents.

[962] And sudden you feel at peace.

[963] People often say, I don't know, it's just and I felt, totally relaxed and thought, I've got perspective, I've gathered the world's the way it is, I accept things are, and I've calmed down.

[964] And then suddenly you see the real person.

[965] And they've got morals and values, and not every human has.

[966] Sometimes the chimps the good guy.

[967] You know, sometimes the human's not nice.

[968] So I do get people who do not write, for example, who you are.

[969] They don't write compassion.

[970] They don't write integrity.

[971] They don't care.

[972] and if I challenge you say you didn't put compassion and they say I don't not bother about that so I have to work out who you are okay so not everyone is going to write the same things that's why I know it's you we're not just a generic list because someone could just be virtue signaling because you're asking me to do it or because I want to be these people but really I'm a I'm a bad guy you know I want to hurt people yeah I'll tease that out how do that's my job because again then you look at evidence based and you look at remorse you look at whether somebody compensated for mistakes you look there's a lot of things I want to see the history here okay and then I'll challenge that and challenge it so that's a series of talks so often we have a long time when we detain someone to explore this so we don't get fooled is this and you talk referencing much of your psychiatric work here within psych hospitals yeah so somebody is psychopathic we generally everyone's a different version of what it is for me a neuroscientific we know there's certain tracks in the brain that are not really fully developed or don't function and this produces someone without empathy, without remorse, without any conscience, these are classic.

[973] And so I don't know that.

[974] I'm not a mind reader.

[975] I can't tell until people talk.

[976] You know, so yes, they could deceive me. I have to just go on what they tell me. But I can listen carefully to the words they use and listen to what they're saying at and look at and their past life events and it starts to unravel.

[977] So eventually you think, okay, I know what I'm dealing with now.

[978] So, but to be honest, people don't do that with me. What you tend is, because I would hopefully set a scene where I don't care what you're right.

[979] I don't care what you want to do with your life.

[980] It's not for me. I'm not a judge.

[981] I'm here as a doctor to explore this with you and get insights for yourself.

[982] So the most people are not psychopathic.

[983] We're decent people who've just got lost in the way the new science of our mind has tumbled us.

[984] So my starting point when you gave me all this was to say, let's write out the real you.

[985] And let's start building ourselves on that and recognizing what is not us.

[986] and let's start unpicking it.

[987] So let's just start saying, right, why would you have?

[988] And we went earlier about low self -esteem.

[989] Let's look at why you have that.

[990] First, it's natural unhealthy.

[991] That can help people.

[992] Sometimes just saying that to go, that's amazing.

[993] I feel better for knowing it's natural and healthy, maybe rubbish and unhelpful, but at least I know it's healthy.

[994] And there's not something wrong with me. Because the second you start saying, oh, I'm trying to please people and I can't say no, and you see that as being a weakness or a fault, we're in trouble again, because you're muddling yourself up with a machine.

[995] So that's my starting point.

[996] Who are you?

[997] What's the machine doing?

[998] All of this, anything the chimp does, anything it does is natural.

[999] There's nothing you're going to give me, even if it murders someone.

[1000] That's what chimps do.

[1001] They're violent.

[1002] So it's still illegal and not acceptable, but I'm saying everything's natural, so that puts us on a different way of looking at it.

[1003] again to try and give context to that natural isn't always good um so overeating is natural but it's not good and even like the classic one i always use with parents and teenagers i always say if you've got said it this morning with someone if you've got a teenager who's got a tidy bedroom that's what i want to meet if they're messy bedroom great that's normal you know so you're more concerned with teenagers that aren't being teenagers so if this you've got a teenager who never lies then it's a bit worrying.

[1004] Maybe they're good at deceit.

[1005] Because teenagers are learning to lie and they're learning to defend themselves and it's a natural way of doing it.

[1006] It's not helpful and hopefully the ground of it.

[1007] But you've got to say what's natural and let's work with that to minimize risk or whatever we want to do.

[1008] So there's a long -winded way of saying, you know, get you to be yourself, get your machine, let's see what the machine's doing and let's change the coping strategies.

[1009] But I accept the machine is the machine.

[1010] Do we choose what we believe?

[1011] Could I, choose, could I genuinely choose a belief?

[1012] You know, we talked earlier on about how you can't just lie to yourself and brainwash yourself to think something.

[1013] Could I genuinely make myself believe something if, could I choose to?

[1014] So could I choose to believe that you're a spaghetti monster?

[1015] If the, if my whole life or my family was on the line, could I choose that belief?

[1016] No. No. Well, others might argue.

[1017] No. Because clearly, you've given a good example.

[1018] It's so ridiculous that you brainwashing yourself.

[1019] Whereas when you look at beliefs, we have to look at.

[1020] We have to look at at evidence -based to say what's your experience in life and that will formulate our belief or what's your education.

[1021] So with that said then, I can't choose my, I can't choose a belief because my experience, my evidence, my education.

[1022] But I couldn't.

[1023] You couldn't know what?

[1024] If we don't choose beliefs, we develop beliefs.

[1025] Yeah.

[1026] We develop them, but we develop them on what we experience or what education tells us.

[1027] If I say to your research shows one in 200 people have got psychopathic brains, then you look at the research and go, okay, that's, I believe that research now.

[1028] you may dispute it.

[1029] But if you have experience that, blind me, about one in 200 people hurt me, then you've worked that out yourself.

[1030] So your experience, but you might get someone who's really oblivious in lack of insight and say, I believe one in two people hurt me. And now, you know, you think, well, can we challenge that?

[1031] And let's see your experience.

[1032] But if it resonates with them, it's not for me to say, well, that's just rubbish.

[1033] That's their experience.

[1034] I'm really compelled by this idea of whether we choose our beliefs or not, because I think this is at the heart of a lot of these topics like confidence and self -esteem.

[1035] You know, there's a lot of people out there that say, go look in the mirror and say nice things to yourself in the mirror.

[1036] And that will help you believe in yourself.

[1037] Okay, I'm glad you're laughing.

[1038] I'm glad you're laughing.

[1039] Yeah, it is silly, isn't it?

[1040] I think if you look in the mirror and you say something that you don't really like, looking back, I think then you have to go down the road to say, right, is it really that important what I look like?

[1041] I can give you a good example years and years and years ago.

[1042] I work with a young lady.

[1043] didn't like what she looked like.

[1044] She really didn't.

[1045] And she was attractive, in my opinion, but I think everyone's attractive.

[1046] And there was no point me trying to convince her.

[1047] I was a young doctor then, and this taught me. And I couldn't get anywhere.

[1048] So I was struggling.

[1049] And eventually, she was in an inpatient.

[1050] We were worried about self -harm and so on.

[1051] And that was a coping strategy for having very low self -esteem, and I was lost.

[1052] So as a junior doctor, by chance, I asked her, just chatting to try and get her to see some value in her.

[1053] I said, what do you like doing?

[1054] And she said, I love animals.

[1055] And by chance, we did have a bird table, which was neglected.

[1056] And we also had a cat on the ward.

[1057] And no one really bothered with a cat.

[1058] And I said, can I ask you to do something for me?

[1059] And this wasn't planned.

[1060] It was, I just thought, can you look after the bird table?

[1061] And can you look after the cat?

[1062] And without a word of lie, a different person emerged.

[1063] And I sat there and I thought, why does that change?

[1064] Because this isn't what you learned at medical.

[1065] school you learn antidepressants and you know therapies and talk and i thought what have i just done and i'm young at that point to read around and i like to read outside of medicine and i thought i give her a purpose and that was her self -esteem she took it out of herself she then said it's matter what i look like i want to help the animals and this is a true story that she got discharged and went to work at an animal center and i met her in outpatient's follow up and she was as happy as could be and i said we've got to broach the subject, what about, you know, your self -esteem in where you look?

[1066] And she said, well, my self -esteem doesn't matter because she actually did have it, but it was on, I am a carer.

[1067] And these animals need me. So you could argue psychodynamically she was looking after herself by looking after the animals.

[1068] She needed love, so she gave love.

[1069] So I could see psychoanalys saying, there you go.

[1070] I don't mind how it's interpreted.

[1071] It worked.

[1072] For me, it worked.

[1073] So I suddenly thought, wow, sometimes people just need to have a purpose in life and feel valued rather than what they look like.

[1074] So that was the start of me really starting to think as a young doctor.

[1075] You know, don't go down one route.

[1076] Trying to see things as being like a spectrum and have a toolbox to say, well, hang on, let's stop looking in the mirror and let's start looking outside yourself because that could be the turning point for you.

[1077] So again, that won't work for everyone.

[1078] So I have to, when you say about this, I'll probably get an idea now.

[1079] Whenever someone comes in, I have to really work hard to understand their mind.

[1080] What beliefs are they holding?

[1081] What's going to turn them around?

[1082] What's not helping?

[1083] What are the long -term consequences?

[1084] What hidden beliefs have they got that they're not aware of?

[1085] But I've got to get them out.

[1086] And when I've done all that, I then go to work on it to help them to challenge what we can both see has been unhelpful and replace them.

[1087] In that example of giving that young lady a bird box and the cat and then I heard going and working with animals and making her feel.

[1088] a sense of sort of worthiness, I guess.

[1089] I was thinking about that if that job becomes, gives her that sense of worthiness, just like the relationship we've talked about and all these other stimulants, can that then become a negative thing?

[1090] Exactly.

[1091] Anything can count it.

[1092] And this is what I'm saying, when people say, write me a book, and I think, I'm always reluctant to do it.

[1093] And it's taken me 10 years to write this one, as in 10 years later, to the first one because I don't want to go in there with a process but I feel I've got to because you know some of people it is very humbling have said this is so helped you know it really makes sense to me that I thought I've got to expand on it and give it in more detail so people have really can do it themselves but the problem is it it's very individual so I have to work with the individual and yes that could become a positive for the rest of her life but as long as we can give a perspective as well that she's worthy as an individual but if your value is I've believe the value I have is I want to be altruistic.

[1094] If that is a value you hold and you're living that value out by helping animals, for example, then we know that that will give you peace of mind.

[1095] What I was, what I'm alluding to there as well is this workaholism.

[1096] Yeah.

[1097] Yeah, do I keep helping more and more?

[1098] And that's what I work seven days a week and I can't leave the bloody animal sanctuary.

[1099] Exactly.

[1100] And that's where you've got to get this tidily winks, but come out and get perspective.

[1101] So say, right, it's great you're doing that, but don't start making it.

[1102] The more I do, the better I am, instead of saying, no, I have to look after myself too.

[1103] So again, it isn't just one thing.

[1104] We're giving it very sort of linear here.

[1105] I'm just giving an example of one angle, but then I would work on the girl in other areas of a life.

[1106] So it isn't just that angle.

[1107] But the bottom line is if you, and I guess most people think this, if you live, if you've defined your values and you live by your values, then you become a wholesome person.

[1108] So most people don't even know what their values are.

[1109] So I push this point that I think this is the only thing that I've ever seen that gives peace of mind and that's to live out your values.

[1110] But you have to find them first.

[1111] And people muddle up what's valuable and what's value.

[1112] They muddle them up.

[1113] So I tried to define that clearly so people know, like, let's find your values and then let's start measuring how you live those values out because it's not as easy as you think.

[1114] So I give this as exercise in the book to try and say, work out your values and then live them out but measure them so again as an example let's say most people put down respect respect for others they like that that's a value i really hold to and then when you say to them well how would how would you demonstrate that people kind of know you know so i say well let's look there many ways you can so for example one way you could demonstrate respect is by listening to someone by thinking i want to get their point of view because that's respectful not judging them, just listening.

[1115] I may not agree, but I'm going to listen.

[1116] That is one thing you could do by testing it weekly to say, let me start listening to people because then at the end of the day, I think that was respectful.

[1117] I may not agree, and I would be polite and say, and be assertive I don't agree, but I'm listening and I respect your view.

[1118] So if that resonates, if, then that's one way of measuring, then being respectful.

[1119] So I like people to do work with me where we work on things like this.

[1120] and then they get high self -esteem.

[1121] So going back to the young lady, if I did that with her, then she would say, right, so caring for animals is great, it's altruistic, but actually I've got something else now as well.

[1122] So exactly what you said, it doesn't become the devil, where I've got to do this every day, otherwise I'm failing again.

[1123] You get it into context.

[1124] Has working with a patient ever made you cry?

[1125] Yes.

[1126] Yeah, I mean...

[1127] Can you tell me about an instance?

[1128] I don't think I've ever cried in front of, of a patient.

[1129] I'm pretty sure I haven't.

[1130] But I think obviously I deal with tragedies in life and they're painful.

[1131] So in the room, I have to contain emotion.

[1132] They've got the psych falling apart.

[1133] But on the other hand, you know, I'm a human being and you go away and you think somebody, for example, horror stories like some parents who's lost their child, there's no way back.

[1134] You know, and my view, which may be wrong, is that I say to people, can we start by your emotionally scarred?

[1135] This isn't going to go away.

[1136] This is for life, but we're going to learn how we can cope with it.

[1137] But you're not going to be the same.

[1138] You cannot get over this.

[1139] So you won't come to terms with it at all.

[1140] You'll learn to manage it.

[1141] There's a difference.

[1142] Because I think, I'd love it to you from parents.

[1143] I've come to terms of it.

[1144] But that's really hard.

[1145] My experience has been they don't.

[1146] So when I leave the room and I think, how am I going to work for this man and woman and get them to come to terms of it?

[1147] I have to sort of, this is the only way I work.

[1148] Get inside the head.

[1149] And that's so painful that it distresses me. I feel it then.

[1150] You think, gee.

[1151] you know so i do that with everyone i do it with sports people i do it with the police i do it with doctors i try and get in their head and think what is their world hopefully it's not that tragic uh but when it's tragic tragic yeah it's painful so it brings tears to me how do you do um learn to recognize and talk to myself you know which i do and say at the end of the day i can't change life i can't change things you know tragedies happen and it's not going to be helpful for me to dwell on it what is helpful is to me to get inside the head and experience the pain, experience the feelings and hopefully even the thoughts so that I can then get outside of my head, which I think is a skill to do, and actually then say, right, what can I do about it?

[1152] Because then if it resonates with me, it's possibly going to resonate with the person I'm working with.

[1153] So I go back feeling, I know what I can say here and try it.

[1154] But then I don't have this approach where actually I'm not a feeling or experiencing what they've got.

[1155] This is not for everyone I can hear a lot of therapists going, this is everything you're taught not to do.

[1156] Good on you.

[1157] It's how I work, and it works for me. I've heard you in a path through the jungle talk about what you just said there, which is you actually talk to yourself.

[1158] Yeah.

[1159] In the path through the jungle, you talk about talking to the chimp.

[1160] Yeah.

[1161] Yeah, I mean, again, to lighten the moods because it's quite heavy.

[1162] There's lots of great things I've had and lots of great experience and lots of success.

[1163] And I say to people, always pack yourself on the back when you do this.

[1164] But one of the things my chimp responds to it, I don't know why he responds.

[1165] response to this is sarcasm, but I've worked that out.

[1166] So whenever something upsets my chimp, and I just think, oh, come on, get a life.

[1167] And I can't.

[1168] My chimp's going for me. I say to the chimp very quickly, right, can I just ask, do you want to be upset for a minute, an hour, the rest of our lives?

[1169] Just give me a help.

[1170] I don't know why.

[1171] It makes me laugh.

[1172] So it disarms my chimp.

[1173] And we know that if you can laugh at yourself or a circumstance, you can't always, but if you can, We know that's the only time the brain seems to default into human mode.

[1174] Because what you're really doing, if you think the chimp's job is to alert us to danger and worry, where you start laughing genuinely, particularly at yourself, the chimp's disarmed, it has no job.

[1175] So it goes silence.

[1176] It literally will silence, and you'll see the blood supply and oxygen uptake in the human circuits.

[1177] And so I come back to me and think, okay, and my chimp may whitter again, but, you know, I'll deal with it.

[1178] So, yeah, I talk to my chimp in that I know what, it, what can bring me around?

[1179] When you say talk to, do you mean out loud?

[1180] I wouldn't do that without people around.

[1181] Because I tried upstairs.

[1182] All right, yeah.

[1183] I felt like my chimp had a little bit of a hold of me about something.

[1184] And so I tried just having a conversation with myself out loud.

[1185] And it works.

[1186] And it works.

[1187] I will.

[1188] I'll tell you why there's, and again, I both go through this in detail for those who want the science behind it, it's referenced.

[1189] When we talk to ourselves, we talk often from the church.

[1190] We can talk from the human, but when we listen, the human process is what we hear you, which is why often, you know, we talk to a friend and we say, I feel a lot better.

[1191] It's not just getting it off your chest, you're listening.

[1192] So often in a team meeting and business, for example, I'll sit and I'll say, just talk from your chimp.

[1193] And they'll talk and talk and I say, right, when you've got off your chest, how much you believe of that and it'll go nothing?

[1194] It's rubbish.

[1195] Because you're actually processing what you're saying.

[1196] So the more we talk out loud, the more we process from our human and bring to the chest.

[1197] perspective in, which the chimp can't do.

[1198] We bring perspective and reality to the table and that can bring us back to earth.

[1199] So it does work.

[1200] So behind locked doors, yes.

[1201] I mean, when I worked with British cycling, which was great at the time and many fantastic people there, great achievements, when I used to drive in, I live in the peak district, so it was an hour's drive.

[1202] And I would literally on the morning say to my chimp, right, before we get there, don't want your opinion.

[1203] Don't want you to interfere, but when we come home, how do you talk?

[1204] Don't ask me why it works.

[1205] Probably think I'm nuts.

[1206] But it worked.

[1207] My brain almost went into computer more to say, not the right time yet, not the right time.

[1208] So I would deal with a lot of upsets.

[1209] You can imagine working with people you get a lot of in, all kinds of things.

[1210] And then I would come home and I had a particularly point entering the peaks where I'd say, okay, to your time.

[1211] And my chimp would come out.

[1212] And then I would let it say, well, that was so unreasonable of that person.

[1213] And once I've done that, as our chimp's do, you can't keep going.

[1214] It used to get bored of its own voice and I'd say, you're finished and say, yeah, yeah, it's fine now.

[1215] So that won't work for everyone, you know, but I'm just saying sometimes it does work.

[1216] I would just like to add, because I think I'm fairly resilient.

[1217] When we're not resilient, sometimes you've got to give TLC.

[1218] So I'm not always firm with the chimp.

[1219] Sometimes I go, you've got a point.

[1220] Sometimes I agree with it.

[1221] And again, this is learning how to deal with you, your own emotions.

[1222] what works for you.

[1223] So I try this with people and say, what resonates with you?

[1224] You've got to try it.

[1225] But sometimes I have to see even to my own chimp, you've got good reason to be upset.

[1226] You've got good reason to be distressed.

[1227] You know, I get it.

[1228] And that, giving yourself reassurance and TLC, can be very powerful.

[1229] Is that what you refer to as exercising your chimp?

[1230] Exercising the chimp is when you let out emotion, express yourself.

[1231] So it doesn't have to be high emotion.

[1232] Expression can just be, can I just say, I think what's just happened was unreasonable.

[1233] I think this person was way out of order, or it can be without emotion saying this person's just damaged me, you know, or particularly reputations of people are in other people's hands.

[1234] And you see, I see a lot of this where you've got reputational damage, and you can't do anything about that because it's not in your hands.

[1235] And the more you try and defend your reputation, the worse it gets.

[1236] So you have to just suck it up.

[1237] So there's where I'd say, be reasonable with your chimp.

[1238] You know, don't down it and say, come on, get over it, because it needs TLC.

[1239] And there's lots of times, lots of circumstances, TLC is appropriate.

[1240] But you have to learn when to go enough because it tips to self -pity.

[1241] So we exercise the chimp, we let it out.

[1242] Let it out.

[1243] Express emotion or express feelings or express it in words.

[1244] Step two, as I read in the book, is then we figure out if it can be addressed.

[1245] Yeah.

[1246] And say in the case of reputational damage, someone said something, it's not true, it's out in the press.

[1247] I can't, whatever, you know, I can't respond, whatever it might be.

[1248] then step three is we make a plan to move forward yeah and that can often be let's look at reality here in the facts of the situation that nobody is immune to attacks nobody it doesn't matter you know I often say if an angel from heaven fell to earth it would be attacked you know and so you've got to get reality and then the reality is if you're not going to please everyone and something has terrible happened go to your friends because that's all that counts at the end you know it's who you're with at the end of the day and these are your friends, your partner, potentially, your family, the people that stand with, that's why I said the truth, this is your fallback we talked about earlier, you turn to them, and they're then the ones who go, we don't care.

[1249] We know you who you are, we love you, and even if you've made a mistake, they're forgiving.

[1250] You know, at the end of the day, we're not perfect human beings.

[1251] Nobody's an angel.

[1252] We're not angels.

[1253] We're human beings with machines that can run as a right, and even how humans can get it wrong.

[1254] Sometimes we're blame the chimp, it's not, it's the human.

[1255] that circuit can do it irrationally.

[1256] You know, it's not always rational when it comes in.

[1257] You must have dealt with this a lot, dealing with high performance athletes and people in the public eye.

[1258] Yeah, yeah.

[1259] A lot of teenagers, because again, that's a vulnerable time, but a lot of people.

[1260] So it's a privilege to deal with, it's uncomfortable.

[1261] You know, you deal with actors, actresses, and deal with sports people.

[1262] What about footballers?

[1263] Have you ever dealt with any football?

[1264] Yeah, I worked with England football for three years, and I worked with Liverpool for three years.

[1265] So I know a lot of the lads went very public, which was great.

[1266] And again, they were not in a bad place when I met, and what they were saying is how to optimise performance.

[1267] And again, they might deal with some really bad comments in the press, which, you know, behind locked doors, I'm thinking, and this isn't right.

[1268] I don't think they've got the right end of the stick here.

[1269] You know, and so all I can do is stand with them and say, look, you know, I know the real person.

[1270] You know, I know what you're going through, and I can only give them my support.

[1271] And sometimes that's all people need.

[1272] They need somebody who's there for them to see, you know you're struggling here but I'm here and I know the truth we can't change a false or the way someone interprets you know we can't so we have to recognise when we can't change it we fall back to the troop and say just give me some TLC or support Habits a lot of people are thinking about habits this January I made a video on habits a couple of weeks ago in a path through the jungle you talk about how our habits are influenced by our self -image.

[1273] That was a curious sentence to read and not something I'd heard before.

[1274] What do you mean by that?

[1275] Okay, there's lots of ways we form habits, whether they're helpful or destructive.

[1276] And I'm giving an example, so that's when you picked out.

[1277] It's quite powerfully if you grasp it.

[1278] So for example, I'll take the simple example, which I may have put in the book, I don't remember.

[1279] If I wrote down, I'd say to someone, Do you see yourself as someone who is a tidy person who gets on with things immediately?

[1280] Or do you see yourself as someone who procrastinates and it's pretty untidy?

[1281] I'm untidy.

[1282] Right.

[1283] So if you've got that self -image and you go home and your room is untidy, I'm being very black and white here, then there's no feelings at all because that's who you are.

[1284] You're untidy.

[1285] It's true.

[1286] So that if you don't do anything.

[1287] That's true.

[1288] Whereas if you say, right, change your image and say, actually, my chint being untidy, I'm a tidy person.

[1289] In some cases, you're now programming the computer.

[1290] you now go home and say, wow, this isn't me. And that can change.

[1291] So if your self -image is, I'm not my chimp, that's an untidy little beggar.

[1292] I am actually a tidy person.

[1293] How do I change that self -image?

[1294] Well, you've got to sit down and reflect on this.

[1295] I mean, a lot of the things in the book, I've done as a young doctor, when I became a psychiatrist, I decided I didn't want to be a psychiatrist who didn't actually manage themselves.

[1296] And that's no detriment to Sykes who struggle because it's not an easy career or any, any therapist.

[1297] It's a tough career.

[1298] But I decided, look, I'm going to work on me because I can't keep doing this, which is where the chint model came from.

[1299] And it was one of my light bulb moments many, many years ago where I would be procrastinating.

[1300] And then I suddenly thought, you know what, that isn't who I want to be.

[1301] So I thought, that isn't me. I'm actually someone getting some of the things.

[1302] And I used to get in and I'd just go, right, get on with it.

[1303] And it's never left me. I just thought, no, that is who I am.

[1304] So I become uncomfortable now.

[1305] If things were tidy, I agitate.

[1306] and say, no, get it, tidied up.

[1307] So I start perceiving myself as this energized guy who's going to get up and do stuff.

[1308] So if you define yourself image, you're actually programming your computer to say, this is normal, anything else isn't, and that will actually help your chimp to agitate, which will then join forces and tidy the room.

[1309] So instead of your chimp going, oh, I can't be bothered, suddenly it's saying, wow, I'm being told we're not untidy, so this is unacceptable and not normal.

[1310] And that's what I did.

[1311] and I found that very powerful in my life.

[1312] So I get lots and lots of emails.

[1313] The other thing I found really curious in this section about habits in stage four of the book is when people think about habit loops, they often have a reward at the end of it.

[1314] You referenced suffering.

[1315] Now, there's this quote I heard many years ago.

[1316] I think it was just over 10 years ago, it must have been, God, I'm getting old.

[1317] Where I heard this YouTuber say, change happens when the pain of staying the same becomes greater than the pain of making a change.

[1318] and when I'm thinking about friends that I have in my life or myself where there's habits or there's behaviour patterns that I want to break sometimes I'm thinking about one particular person who's a musician sometimes they have to get to that rock bottom place before you see change happen is that because of that?

[1319] Is that because sometimes the suffering has to...

[1320] Yeah, I mean, it's sort of self -evident if you're, for example, in a bad relationship and it's really not doing any favours and it's not doing them any favours but it's not bad enough, then you struggle along and struggle along.

[1321] But if suddenly something happens where it becomes untenable and it's painful now, then you move.

[1322] You think, stop the relationship.

[1323] And then you look back thinking, why didn't I move earlier?

[1324] And the answer was because it wasn't painful enough.

[1325] And the same with like untidiness.

[1326] You leave it and leave it and leave it.

[1327] And then somebody comes in and says...

[1328] A partner.

[1329] Yeah.

[1330] Blimey.

[1331] I can't live with this.

[1332] And suddenly you think, wow, suddenly it's painful.

[1333] Is there a way to get there without the person needing to point it out?

[1334] Yeah, there is.

[1335] I mean, when I talk about relationships are critical to us.

[1336] And I say to people, the way we move is we've got to, I have the triangle of change, which is really the three key things that cause us to move.

[1337] And the one you've highlighted is either it's got a massive reward or there's going to be massive pain and suffering.

[1338] So if you're trying to, you're courting someone, you want to form a permanent relationship when they say, I can't stand in tidiness.

[1339] You'll guarantee your flat's perfect when they come in, right?

[1340] Because you're thinking, if I don't, I'm going to lose this person.

[1341] So the reward is so big.

[1342] However, then they marry you, and for some reason, we take them for granted.

[1343] And we forget that bit now.

[1344] And then the flat becomes untidy.

[1345] And then she starts saying to you, you know, I'm struggling with this.

[1346] I'm struggling.

[1347] But there's no threat yet.

[1348] So now it's not painful enough.

[1349] So she's struggling with it.

[1350] I love the guy, but this is now what I do.

[1351] So I say, let's increase the pain.

[1352] I want you to sit down and imagine she can't cope.

[1353] Is that a bad day?

[1354] And someone at work says, oh, come over and chat.

[1355] And this young man has a tidy flat naturally.

[1356] And she goes, oh, wow.

[1357] And I warn people, how are you going to feel if she walks?

[1358] Because once they've gone, they very rarely come back.

[1359] And if you don't look after them, someone else will.

[1360] If you reflect on that, that can suddenly make reality come to life to say, I'm not there yet, but blammy, this would be painful.

[1361] So I'm suddenly going to stop and think, let me look after them.

[1362] because if I don't, somebody will.

[1363] And we know, unfortunately, that happens a lot.

[1364] And when you do interview people say, well, why did you leave him or her?

[1365] And they say, I just got fed up with it.

[1366] And there was no love or affection left.

[1367] They didn't pay any attention.

[1368] They used to.

[1369] That's so common.

[1370] That's so common.

[1371] So you can increase the concept of suffering by reflecting and thinking, what would like be like if she left?

[1372] So anyway, I don't know.

[1373] You might say it'd be better.

[1374] No, no. I was thinking about how, I need to tidy my room.

[1375] Well, no, that's what I'm saying.

[1376] Now, again, it may not work for you.

[1377] You might say to me, I did that and you didn't make any impact.

[1378] No, it does.

[1379] I can remember the last time my girlfriend, I saw her upset about something.

[1380] And I care about it.

[1381] This is, I wanted to add in from earlier on, the reason why I think in the last two years, as I said, I've been able to listen to when we have conversations and apologize straight away is because I just love her so much.

[1382] And I think about the last time she raised an issue with me and she was upset and she was talking to me she never shouts like me I was so scared about like losing her that there you go part of my head she'll listen to this because she's a big fan of yours she loves this book by the way I got it after last time we spoke and she absolutely loves it part of me was like she was telling me how she feels I was like oh my God she's gonna dump me oh my God I thought I was going to lose her and this I know it's not the case and it's just just this irrational part of my brain was because I think she's finished with you.

[1383] And that really makes me go, I need to immediately change it.

[1384] It was we're having a conversation about quality time.

[1385] And I hadn't spent much quality time with her because I was so caught up in my work.

[1386] So the minute she said that, I was like looking at my calendar and cancelling things.

[1387] But I needed the warning, it seemed.

[1388] And that's what I'm trying to say.

[1389] Now, there's just like the devil's in the detail.

[1390] Let's say that you go home and you really make an effort, you tidy the house and you really clean it up.

[1391] And she comes home and she doesn't notice.

[1392] and there's a danger now and I do advocate that sometimes you say to them because your chimp needs to get that accolade so it's no good not helping it you don't need that but your chimp does so it's worth saying can I just say because I love you I've tied to the flat because then your chimp goes right good I get the accolade now so I'm not saying you should not the chimp out I'm saying you should be getting the chimp so it feels good and then hopefully she'll say wow I love you too and I appreciate that and then that's nicely rounded up but you do get circumstance where I'll work with people and say I tired of the flight I did everything she doesn't even recognise it I can't suffer for my dowry she didn't recognise it and I think well you know I'm not saying I'm a goody -goody but I'm saying let them know because your chimp's saying please make sure they know and they've recognised it and again I don't know there may be couples where they say if I say that she'll lose it so I said well don't do it then tell me and I as a therapist will say it's you well done and that might be enough for your chimp so again it's that thing which I keep saying to Steve, I've got to work with the person in front of me and even potentially their partner or family and say, well, what would they do before we make a plan?

[1393] That was step one in your triangle.

[1394] That's one of the points.

[1395] The other two, for people to shift, they've got to have psychological mindedness, which means they've got to understand that it's not about what happens to us in life, it's how we deal with it.

[1396] That's basically what we mean.

[1397] So we understand that just because you've got certain emotions doesn't mean.

[1398] you can't change them and things have to change or people have to change for you to change.

[1399] It's within your power to be responsible for the things you believe and change.

[1400] So psychological mind and this means you get up and start working on this.

[1401] It's within your power to shift things.

[1402] That's that personal responsibility.

[1403] And also if you can't shift them, you know, like say go back.

[1404] Let's say life hadn't been great for you.

[1405] And I'm sure you worked hard to get where you've got.

[1406] But let's say you're still in that poverty situation.

[1407] You thought, I didn't have the skill to do what I'm doing.

[1408] I didn't use that skill because it was never there.

[1409] So a lot of people are trapped and they say, well, I'm still living in a pretty bad place.

[1410] And I'm struggling financially.

[1411] And that's a lot of people.

[1412] It's painful.

[1413] But again, psychological mindedness, tough as it is, is to say, well, let me deal with that.

[1414] I can't change it, but I can't change my approach to it.

[1415] And that's not easy.

[1416] I'm not saying that's easy.

[1417] And then you have to work at how do you do that.

[1418] And it'll be different for different people.

[1419] So psychological mindiness means take responsibility, accept what you.

[1420] what's in front of you and then move forward.

[1421] So other than that, what you do, non -psychological mind is where you blame everybody else or blame circumstances or say this happened to me in childhood.

[1422] These may all be genuine, but they're not actually helpful.

[1423] Disempowering, right?

[1424] Yeah, you're using them as an excuse not to take responsibility and turn them over.

[1425] It's like giving your power to something else, right?

[1426] Yes.

[1427] And you've got to get the power back and say it's within my power.

[1428] Where do people like doing that?

[1429] Why do people like making excuses?

[1430] including me i have to say again it's really difficult to say i mean a lot of people when they're in not a great place find it very easy to be the victim they don't want to be a victim but they find it easy so they'll use an illness as an example so that it gives them that remit to say well i'm not well i'm not well when the reality is they don't know how to move forward so it's easier to just go i'm not well and people then go well they're not well and there'll be some truth in it but actually not fully the truth so people often use as a defense mechanism the victim role sometimes I have been a victim and then they need to work through that and process it but there's a danger you start to use it or you start blaming circumstance like you might have said to me I didn't make it because my parents never helped me well you know there are people who's parents don't help them but they do make it so you have to say well hang on don't use that because it will keep you in this not great place there will be truth in it potentially and then I would give the TLC and the recognition that that didn't help, but on the other hand, let's look at what you can do, regardless of the background.

[1431] I was reading, and I talked about something in my episode about habits, that there's something called the question behavior effect, where if someone is asked about something they want to do, so let's say I want to go to the gym, if I'm asked verbally by a friend, they say, you know, are you going to go to the gym?

[1432] People might say, whatever, they might say, yes, no, they might come up with an excuse as to why they can't go today.

[1433] But when they're asked on pen and paper or on a computer, and it's a yes or no answer, if they answer yes, they are more likely to then go to the gym.

[1434] And when I was reading around the science as to why that is, they talked a lot about this idea of cognitive dissonance and we want to...

[1435] Right, can I interrupt you?

[1436] Because what you're giving me is exactly what you said earlier about self -image.

[1437] So what you've affected you're the same thing is when I take, yes, it means that's the norm, I go to the gym.

[1438] So the cognitive dissonance, if I don't go to the gym, that's not normal.

[1439] Yeah.

[1440] That's exactly the same as saying, when I'm a tidy person, I come home, I don't expect a mess.

[1441] I tidy up immediately that the cognitive dissonance is I'm doing something which doesn't tally with my belief.

[1442] For people that don't understand the term cognitive dissonance, 50 % need.

[1443] It's doing something against your belief system.

[1444] So if I say I'm a vegetarian and then I eat meat, I'm now in turmoil.

[1445] It's like a mental friction because your behaviour doesn't align to who you think and want to be.

[1446] The dissonance is doing one thing which is opposed to what you're saying or believing.

[1447] So I might say I'm not someone who lies and then you come to see me and I tell you a lie I go home, I'll have cognitive dissonance it's very likely if I have a conscience which most of us have that will prey on me and I think oh I don't like myself for doing this this is wrong and then I'll hopefully ring and say can I just clear it so I'm not living out my value so this is cognitive dissonance so I can get why if you said are you going to go at the gym and you tick yes it's the same principle I need to go because if I don't I'm going to be in trouble I've ticked yes interestingly when it's not on pen and paper and when it's not a binary choice of yes or no people are then less likely to go to the gym because there's room for excuse exactly exactly so I can go I'm going to go on Monday yeah and then like there's no cognitive dissonance because I feel like I've satisfied myself with an excuse yeah and I'm nice and aligned but yeah I found that really interesting and I was talking to in the episode about how when you do want to set an intention a great way of doing it is by asking yourself a yes or no question and it in some kind of binary way.

[1448] Again, it's why, and again, I recommend this, not everyone, but most people, if you put something on a piece of paper and measure things, our chimp gets behind us now.

[1449] So it drives us to do things.

[1450] So if we can see something being measured and it's getting worse, we tend to do something about it.

[1451] And that's because the chimp doesn't like to fail because it's eagles at risk.

[1452] And I said earlier when you, way back in our conversation, the chimp has it, it's about achievement.

[1453] It's about self -esteem.

[1454] it's so it doesn't want to fail.

[1455] So the chimp joins forces with us.

[1456] So one way is to help yourself is get it on board.

[1457] Instead of seeing it negative, it's the best friend you'll have.

[1458] It's my best friend.

[1459] My chimp is my best friend.

[1460] He just needs a bit of help at times and he does things different to me and I usually say he's inept.

[1461] But that doesn't mean all of him.

[1462] So I don't dislike my chimp.

[1463] I just need to learn to understand him and get him to help me. Use his energy.

[1464] Goals and I guess health trackers and those kind of things really help to keep us.

[1465] Because the chimp will join forces with you.

[1466] And then that last point in the triangle, the habit triangle commitment.

[1467] Yeah, what I'm saying with this is, again, teasing out the neuroscience, if we go on motivation, and again, if people use it, great, right?

[1468] But the evidence is that it doesn't really help.

[1469] It doesn't really work.

[1470] It's very hard to maintain.

[1471] Whereas if that's the chimp system.

[1472] So it can work if your chimp is motivated because the reward is so big, their motivation will follow that and be high.

[1473] But we all know that I get a lot of, talks, can you help motivate?

[1474] And I say, no, not at all.

[1475] I don't want to do that because you're constantly propping it up.

[1476] My approach, which is not, as I say, not everyone will agree, is if you look at the neuroscience, if you use commitment, that means I remove my emotion and I plan on what I have to do and I get on with it.

[1477] So commitment, there's a lot of evidence that that makes to succeed.

[1478] So, for example, if I've got to go and weed the garden, it's not my favorite pastime, but I think, right, you know, the neighbours might complain.

[1479] I don't have any neighbours, but they might.

[1480] So, but my chimp's going, oh, I leave it.

[1481] Who cares?

[1482] There's any weeds and it's going to kill you back in it.

[1483] But I would then say, which I will, right, you stay in here, I'm going out.

[1484] And if you want to join me, great, but I'm doing the garden.

[1485] I remove emotion and I say, what has to be done is getting done and is getting done now.

[1486] We're not discussing it.

[1487] And I will start.

[1488] Motivation will follow commitment.

[1489] And that means the chimp brain will then get behind me. Because by the time we've done half the guard, and it'll say, I can't believe we've left it this long.

[1490] That's a typical approach by the chimp.

[1491] And then it tries to make me finish.

[1492] And I might have to stop and say, let's respect my back now.

[1493] We'll stop now.

[1494] So I manage my emotions by using commitment.

[1495] And if they don't marry, I move them to one side.

[1496] So I don't really work with emotion to drive me to do something.

[1497] I think if people can use that and use motivation, that's great.

[1498] My experience has been it doesn't actually hold.

[1499] The last point I want to talk to you about is relationships.

[1500] We've talked a little bit about it there in the context of my own relationship.

[1501] But one of the sentences in A Path Through the Jungle is that, I'm paraphrasing a little bit here, is that you need to have a good relationship with yourself before you try and have a relationship with someone else.

[1502] Now, a lot of people that I know, and we talked a little bit about abusive relationships, will see another parties being able to fix them in some way.

[1503] Again, this is Shards of Grace.

[1504] I'm not saying definitively, but as a golden rule, it's self -evident again.

[1505] And if you're in a great place, then you become attractive to most people because you're exuding this positivity and energy.

[1506] And so if you can get yourself where you respect and love yourself, then you've got a much better chance that people are attracted to you and think, that's great.

[1507] However, however, I'm going to give you a bizarre example many years ago.

[1508] I'll simplify this.

[1509] I worked with a lady who had an overpowering desire to help others.

[1510] and I tried to say to her, let's stop and just get yourself and she couldn't do this, couldn't get in a good place.

[1511] I have to help others.

[1512] And it damaged all the relationships she had because he was up empowering.

[1513] And eventually, I thought this was a great success as many years ago.

[1514] And I went really out the box, which is not recommended, all right?

[1515] But I just got to the point, I thought, I can't see a way forward.

[1516] And I said, you know what, why don't I help you to pick the right person, right?

[1517] Because I thought, this is more practical psychiatry.

[1518] And she laughed and said, okay, let's try that.

[1519] Because she said, why do I do it?

[1520] And she went off to one of these, like, this is a long time ago where you wrote in.

[1521] It's not before the internet.

[1522] And she got a group of guys wrote to her.

[1523] And we picked one out.

[1524] I said, try him.

[1525] And she was in a great place to work with me and said, I must stop doing this overpowering and learned to manage myself.

[1526] And then she picked this guy and absolutely worked fantastic.

[1527] And I brought her in and I said, I'd love to meet him before I discharged from the clinic because her esteem was good then.

[1528] It was more tragic than that.

[1529] She wasn't in a great place at all because of this.

[1530] So I met this guy and I said, what's the best thing about it?

[1531] And he said, because she mothers me. And again, it taught me something to say, you know, sometimes there's a positive dysfunctional relationship and they were very happy that he wanted this mothering figure.

[1532] She was that and both fulfilled what they wanted to do.

[1533] So I felt at the time as an amazing failure.

[1534] But looking back, I think, yeah, they were happy.

[1535] So it's not for me to say what kind of relationships people want.

[1536] I've given that as a bizarre example.

[1537] The golden rule is I like people to get in a good place within themselves because otherwise what you do is you start trying to use your partner to help you to compensate for your deficiencies, or you start getting very dependent on them, or you start getting controlling of them, because you're not actually in a good place yourself.

[1538] So that's the danger with that kind of situation.

[1539] So I'm not recommending what I thought was an amusing though, it taught me something story.

[1540] I'm saying ideally in relationships, get to respect and love yourself first.

[1541] And then when you've got to that position, then go out and find someone because then they don't affect you as much.

[1542] You can enjoy the relationship rather than looking for something out of them.

[1543] So interesting.

[1544] So interesting.

[1545] Steve, thank you.

[1546] Thank you so much.

[1547] You know, I said this to you last time we spoke, but you've helped several people that are the closest people in my life of the of the seven closest people in my life you've profoundly helped two of them with your work um one of them who we talked about last time was my business partner who's very open about his relationship with um he went through some difficulties and ended up being uh in his words a functional alcoholic and reading your book in his own words was the changing the turning point for him helped him to finally understand his behavior pattern and in fact he is the one my friend um dom he's the one who put me onto your work because that book was so profound in his life and then also I've got another friend who um who's the one that I gave your book to recently who um reported to quote that book really really really helped me and I highlighted one of the sentences but she managed to get through the whole book so thank you for that because your work helps so many people um this is one of my top three favorite books of all time because it's practical because it's because of the way that it's has these images which again I'm the type of person that really loves imagery in the way that I learn but but also has the robust sort of scientific knowledge from your experience.

[1548] And I'm obsessed with books that are centered in human behavior and the human mind that help us to understand it.

[1549] Because as far as I'm concerned, that is all there is in the world, really.

[1550] That's everything that stands in my way.

[1551] It's my troubles every single day is the human mind, either my own or someone else is.

[1552] So I feel like this is a central reading for everybody.

[1553] And that's why it's so great that you're doing so much work in schools as well.

[1554] Thank you.

[1555] Thank you for coming back.

[1556] And again, tell the two guys you've got in your team that have done this, you know, all I'm doing is presenting the neuroscience in what I think is an accessible way that is entertaining, but quite serious, to try and get people to get the neuroscience simplified.

[1557] Because it's out there, but it's so complex.

[1558] To me, it's complex.

[1559] And I'd like to present in a way that's practical, and that's what I've done.

[1560] But the bottom line is, let them pat themselves on the back, because I work with lots of people.

[1561] Those who succeed have done it themselves.

[1562] all I am is a catalyst.

[1563] So again, anyone who's really benefited, they need to compliment themselves because it means they've worked and they've succeeded.

[1564] And it is a skill.

[1565] So those you say, well, I didn't, I couldn't do it.

[1566] Don't give up because it is a skill.

[1567] And if this doesn't resonate, there's loads of stuff out there.

[1568] I'm sure you've had a lot of people in your program.

[1569] We're all in the same book.

[1570] We're trying to help people.

[1571] So find something that does resonate so that we have a nation with a much better psychological health.

[1572] That would be my dream.

[1573] We've got a closing tradition where the last guest leaves a question for the next guest and the question that's been left for you if you were on your deathbed and could leave only one lesson behind what would it be I would in the context of my scientific background never forget who you are because that means you've removed the chimp on the computer and you found yourself so never forget who you are remember the blank piece of paper because that's going to give you the self -esteem that you deserve.

[1574] Steve, thank you.