Marc Maron

[0] Hello.

[1] Welcome to the armchair expert.

[2] I'm Dax Shepard.

[3] I'm joined by the ever talented and beautiful Monica Padman.

[4] Hello.

[5] What an intro.

[6] I've got more coming your way.

[7] Yeah, I've just started drafting them in my head.

[8] Oh, boy.

[9] I can't wait.

[10] I don't think I'll run out of adjectives too soon either.

[11] Okay.

[12] Yeah.

[13] Before we get into this week's episode, there was some blowback.

[14] And I'm happy there was blowback.

[15] Me too.

[16] About the lack of a fact check on the beefy Joel McHale's episode.

[17] The reason for that was my beautiful, lovely stepfather of 27, eight years, David Barton had been battling prostate cancer and I had to go to Oregon for a week and he has since passed and I was there with my family.

[18] and it was both a hard week and a beautiful week because my family's so fantastic.

[19] But because of that, I dropped the ball, guys.

[20] I was unable to get the fact check in the right spot at the right time.

[21] I'm not going to let you do that.

[22] I'm not going to let you take credit for this going poorly.

[23] I think so.

[24] No. Because we would have gotten together much earlier to record those spots.

[25] and we would have discovered this and we would have figured it out and or recorded a new one.

[26] You're right.

[27] It prevented us from being able to fix the problem, but you didn't cause the problem.

[28] It had nothing to do with the problem.

[29] Well, because we had recorded the fact check.

[30] We had recorded.

[31] It exists in the ether.

[32] Yeah.

[33] But it's lost.

[34] It is lost.

[35] And one day we'll find it and we're going to post it.

[36] Yeah.

[37] Or we'll re -record it because really are.

[38] I have all the notes.

[39] We just love doing that fact check.

[40] Guys, it's so much fun.

[41] So that is the explanation that we owed all of you.

[42] And, you know, some of it's my fault, according to Monica, it's not all my fault.

[43] Although I do proceed through life thinking everything's my fault.

[44] It's not true.

[45] But with all that said, we have an amazing guest today.

[46] He's a Titan in the podcast world.

[47] I mean, the Titan, I would say.

[48] Yeah.

[49] He's the Howard Stern of podcasts.

[50] He really started the whole revolution.

[51] I mean, who else has interviewed the damn president?

[52] So jealous.

[53] I'm so jealous.

[54] So you probably already know who that is with those clues.

[55] That's another thing we're going to start doing.

[56] It's giving you lots of clues to figure out.

[57] Oh, little droppings.

[58] So breadcrumbs to find your way.

[59] So Mark Marin is our esteemed guest.

[60] And I think you'll get a bang out of what it took to get him here.

[61] And what he and I went through emotionally to make this happen.

[62] And I hope you enjoyed as much as we enjoyed talking to Mark Marin, host of WTF podcast.

[63] Wondry Plus subscribers can listen to Armchair Expert early and ad free right now.

[64] Join Wondry Plus in the Wondry app or on Apple Podcasts.

[65] Or you can listen for free wherever you get your podcasts.

[66] He's an armchair expert.

[67] Yeah.

[68] Looks like exploding in the lot next door there in the house.

[69] So Mark is pointing out that we are in the ground zero of a construction.

[70] project motivated by my wife.

[71] Oh, and by the way, like when I, when I texted you, I never text people what I texted you.

[72] This is one of those things that just completely backfired.

[73] I've had hundreds of people on my show.

[74] I never assume familiarity enough to even text people for anything.

[75] But like I went to the SAG Awards and, you know, Kristen hosted and she made a joke about me. And I realized, like, you know, she's never been on the show.

[76] Why is it?

[77] I've had Dax on a couple times.

[78] Yeah.

[79] I think me and Dax are good enough.

[80] Yeah.

[81] Yeah.

[82] him a text.

[83] Absolutely.

[84] So I shoot you a text and you're like, oh, well, isn't this a little awkward that you completely blew me off?

[85] And I'm like, what the fuck happened?

[86] Yeah, let's unpack this whole thing because you should first know that my most hated fucking thing in life is putting people out to a fault, right?

[87] I will not ask for help.

[88] This is a big problem of mine.

[89] Right.

[90] It prevented me from getting sober for a long time.

[91] Right.

[92] Just can't receive help.

[93] Right.

[94] Yeah.

[95] So for me to ask you to do the podcast.

[96] I know that you probably get asked nonstop.

[97] I also know that you're a fucking lead of a TV show.

[98] I know you have your own podcast.

[99] So for me to send you the initial email saying I would love for you to do my podcast.

[100] Third lead on TV show.

[101] Well, yeah, whatever.

[102] We'll just say for those who aren't listening, it's the Mark Maren presents glow.

[103] Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[104] So I'm, I'm already feeling vulnerable sending you that.

[105] Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah.

[106] So then you don't respond, right?

[107] And I never, I never veer into like resentment at you.

[108] I just go, of course, he's very busy and he didn't.

[109] But then, yes, a few nights ago, you text me, hey, I'd love to have your wife on the podcast.

[110] Do you think that could happen?

[111] And then I'm not totally proud of what I said to you.

[112] But also I admit it could have been much worse.

[113] Like I genuinely like you and I think we have a bond because we're sober.

[114] Right.

[115] So I got to act, you know, semi professionally.

[116] So I say, this is interesting that you would ask me. to get my wife on your show and you ignored my request.

[117] So it was pretty braddy.

[118] It was definitely teed up for you to be a fucking asshole.

[119] Like I was half expecting you to fire back like, well, you know what?

[120] Fuck you.

[121] Blah, blah, blah.

[122] And instead, you blew my fucking mind to the point where I screen captured it and sent it to Monica and said, can you believe how this human being operates?

[123] It's totally impressive.

[124] You immediately go, holy shit.

[125] I'm so sorry.

[126] I get really busy.

[127] I probably forgot you sent that to me. And now I'm an asshole.

[128] And I'm sorry, is there a way to make this right?

[129] Like straight into solution.

[130] Yeah, you didn't get defensive.

[131] No. It was ripe for getting defensive.

[132] Well, I didn't know where he was at either.

[133] Like, I'm like, like, when I sent that one and like, even though it was like five minutes between it, I'm like, he's just losing it.

[134] He's like, fuck this guy.

[135] I'm just saying that there was about a 95 % chance that that entire exchange would go really wrong.

[136] Right.

[137] And I give you.

[138] You the credit for it staying very peaceful and nice.

[139] Well, I've been acknowledging that part of myself recently, like I no longer, I answer emails in my head in the moment or I go like, I'll get back to that.

[140] They just go away.

[141] Right.

[142] Of course.

[143] It happens a lot, even with text.

[144] Like, I'll get a text and I'll be like, oh, yeah, okay.

[145] And that wouldn't even text back.

[146] And I'm, like, disappointments.

[147] Like, I'm on my way somewhere and they're like, are you coming?

[148] And I'm like, oh, I didn't send that text.

[149] I just thought, like, but it was like I'd been.

[150] feeling bad about doing that because you after a certain point you you think you're going to revisit something and just you don't sure and you forget more shit gets heaped on the pile right and you don't get to and i felt bad because like i like you know and then there was other issues like i didn't know like you know what what the deal was with you and her and i'm like oh christ but the whole the whole point about it was like i never do that you know even ask my producer i'm like I think I'm just going to, you know, text X and see if we could do it.

[151] At least find out if there's interest that way.

[152] Like I never, I check through someone else.

[153] If I should text, you know, someone who's been on the show.

[154] So some people are my friends, but you know, I don't know you that way.

[155] Don't you think it has something to do with the sobriety bond?

[156] Because I feel like that puts us on a. Oh, yeah, definitely.

[157] Like a different level.

[158] You would, you would, you would, you would, uh, you would think we would behave soberly.

[159] But I don't, but I don't know you that well either.

[160] Right.

[161] We don't know until they that way.

[162] Like, I know a lot of sober people that are fucking.

[163] their minds.

[164] I know if you as well.

[165] I've worked with people where I was like, wow, man, 20 years of sobriety and you're still a fucking asshole that everyone around you.

[166] That's crazy.

[167] Then you got to assume they must have been much, much worse.

[168] Maybe.

[169] Maybe.

[170] I mean, people sometimes get dry and they, you know, and they actually are worse than them when they were drinking.

[171] But I knew eventually, hopefully that some amends would happen, but it could have been months.

[172] I mean, you don't, you know, who the hell knows?

[173] You might, you might have acted soberly eventually.

[174] Yes, yes, yes.

[175] And I might have eventually.

[176] Do you think this is going to deter you from ever texting anyone ever again asking for a favor?

[177] I really hope it doesn't.

[178] No, no, it doesn't because it wasn't even a favor.

[179] It was sort of like, hey, is she laying right there?

[180] Could you ask her?

[181] She was.

[182] Yeah.

[183] So you were right to assume that because we both sleep in the marital bed.

[184] But then you were like, this fucking guy.

[185] Well, again, I'm giving myself like a C on the whole thing because there was another version of the text that was much more aggressive.

[186] Did you ask her?

[187] Were you checking?

[188] No, no, no. I know when I don't want her input.

[189] Like, it would have been wise to let her in on it all because she always pulls me back about 30%.

[190] But all in all, there was a much meaner text response I had composed in my head.

[191] And then there was a much nicer one that I composed.

[192] And I kind of just went down the middle.

[193] And then again, you were a man. I took the bait to, you know, like, it was the middle.

[194] It's up to you.

[195] You want to make this good or you want to make this worse?

[196] Because we can go either direction.

[197] Yeah, yeah.

[198] And we're both up for that, too, I assume, right?

[199] We wouldn't mind grenading.

[200] I wasn't.

[201] I wasn't, you know, because I was deferring to you because I felt inappropriate to begin with.

[202] So, like, I was more upset that I let that slip through the cracks.

[203] Had I not emailed you a month before, it wouldn't have bothered me at all.

[204] But that's not to say that it wouldn't have bothered me in the past.

[205] Just like anything else, I'm up and down on whether I'm annoyed by that or still used by that or don't care.

[206] That was the other thing that I was realizing, you know, because I think the entire evening of when I was actually texting, I was driving with my, a guy who was on my show, comedian, you know, Dave Anthony.

[207] I don't know if you know.

[208] It's a funny guy.

[209] And, you know, I was doing spots at the comedy store, you know, when this was like in progress.

[210] Okay.

[211] And like, you know, I think when I got the first text from you, we were driving and I'm like, I got to pull over and deal with this.

[212] Oh, my God.

[213] This is, I'm going to be a worse and worse and worse.

[214] No, no, no, no, no, no. You really, you really nailed the response.

[215] It was so benevolent.

[216] I pulled over.

[217] I had to pull over to do it.

[218] I rarely pull over in text.

[219] So I wanted to make sure I got it right.

[220] Right, right.

[221] And there was, I think, a weird, at one point, there was a big gap in the, in the correspondence.

[222] Yeah, you did.

[223] You wait until the next day.

[224] No, no, it was that night.

[225] What had happened was, I think you sent me a text, but we had gone to dinner and we were watching the final episode of Peaky Blinders.

[226] So I was just, I didn't look at my phone for about three hours.

[227] So it probably looked like I was ice.

[228] seeing you out on that first request.

[229] So you maybe have already had filled in a bunch of stuff.

[230] Oh, yeah.

[231] A lot of stuff will go.

[232] You know where that ended in my head?

[233] Fuck that guy.

[234] You know what I mean?

[235] It's right.

[236] What do I give a shit?

[237] You know what I mean?

[238] It's like I fucked up.

[239] So whatever's it going to make me pay for it?

[240] I'm not.

[241] Yeah, because you're right.

[242] In fact, if I had to pick my like what outcome, the last on my list would be you just fucking ignore me. That would send me into.

[243] I wouldn't do that to you.

[244] Right.

[245] And ignore what I do.

[246] It's you.

[247] I just was in a unique situation of watching.

[248] really didn't remember.

[249] And then when I looked it up, I was like, you know, it was just a one sentence.

[250] And I had no recollection of it.

[251] When I read it, I realized I had read it before.

[252] And maybe I said, like, I'd get back to him and then it just went away.

[253] Yeah.

[254] So I'm glad it wasn't months ago.

[255] No, it wasn't.

[256] It wasn't.

[257] In fact, I sent three.

[258] Like, Monica was like, you just got a fucking man up and ask your friends to come do it.

[259] When I started mine, I asked people's friends of friends.

[260] And a lot of the people that I was dealing with were comics.

[261] and they were not, you know, big shots in any way.

[262] Like when I got Conan on, that was a big deal.

[263] How am I going to do that?

[264] And did you feel bad asking?

[265] Well, no, I felt bad in the sense that like, like I felt like for that whole first year or so that most people were like, no, Mark's in trouble.

[266] He's doing this project.

[267] Because no one even knew what a podcast was.

[268] Well, that's what I was going to say is I kind of compare this to when I was on punked versus when other people were on punk.

[269] So when I was on punk, the show had never aired.

[270] So I would put these people in a situation where they were usually scared.

[271] And at the end of it, I'd go, you know, just joking, you got punked.

[272] Oh, by the way, punk's a show that'll air in about six months on MTV.

[273] Here's the premise.

[274] Like, there was, it was bad news followed by a long explanation that made no sense of them, whereas at least the people after me got to say you got punked and they were relieved.

[275] Right, right.

[276] So similarly, you're doing a podcast in 2009.

[277] No one even knows what the fuck that is.

[278] Yeah, yeah.

[279] And I really felt that like, But see, the benefit of that is I was pretty humbled and sort of like, you know, I had no choice.

[280] So it wasn't, you know, like, you know, I had to make this work and I had to suck it up and just eat my pride because there was not much going on for me. You know, like this was it.

[281] But am I right in that you were on Air America, right?

[282] And you had a few different shows on Air America.

[283] And then.

[284] Right.

[285] But that's not very glorious.

[286] You know, like in its first incarnation, I was there at the beginning.

[287] And I'd never done radio before.

[288] and I was out here.

[289] I got married.

[290] I got the job.

[291] Nothing was going on out here.

[292] I'd gone through a deal with a couple of scripts with somebody.

[293] So I went back to, I had an apartment in New York, and I started doing radio for the first time of my life at six in the morning, liberal talk radio.

[294] And I was, you know, a reactionary person.

[295] I'm not a real political thinker.

[296] So I, you know, I showed up at Air America with like a democracy for dummies book.

[297] You know, like I needed to learn, but I was the funny guy.

[298] I was supposed to be the funny guy.

[299] Yes.

[300] But then after - And you're doing sketches and stuff.

[301] Oh, a lot.

[302] We did a lot of stuff with a lot of writers.

[303] It was great comedy.

[304] But eventually I became like the driver of the show.

[305] Like I was the guy.

[306] And I had a lot of very smart people around me to inform me. But I had to learn how to read the news, keep up with the narratives, how the Senate works.

[307] Why should I like this guy?

[308] I'm not this guy.

[309] What did this guy do?

[310] Like, there are dudes that do that all day long.

[311] Were you pressured to join?

[312] Were you free to have your own take on it?

[313] Of course.

[314] It was better off.

[315] Yeah, it was better off.

[316] I had my own take on it.

[317] But what I found as time went on, though, that if you're doing that stuff every day, that it will become sort of unavoidable that you are carrying water for somebody in the sense that, you know, if you are progressive, there's the umbrella to that.

[318] This is what you believe.

[319] Yeah.

[320] If you're way left, you know, this is what you believe.

[321] If you're a centrist Democrat, this is what, like you trim things off.

[322] You know, you got the way left who is sort of like, there's no other way than to, you know, be completely socialist and stop using machinery.

[323] Yeah.

[324] You know, so like, yes.

[325] And then you kind of pull back from there.

[326] Uh -huh.

[327] But, but no, but you do find that you're servicing a narrative.

[328] So in that sort of started to bum me out.

[329] But I was there for a year and a half for year in six months.

[330] Then the CEO, a new guy came in and cut us out.

[331] You're 20 years sober next year, yeah?

[332] 19.

[333] Isn't it 19?

[334] Well, in August it's 19.

[335] And then next year it'll be 20.

[336] Right, right.

[337] This August is 19.

[338] I mean, we're really ahead of ourselves and you're not supposed to do that.

[339] But no, but like to say that's a fuck load of time.

[340] It is.

[341] No, I was sober.

[342] So you were sober.

[343] I was sober and married and as, and I was getting up at 233 in the morning because I had to, you know, get up to speed on the news.

[344] I had to get to the office by like three or so because we were, we had to crunch a lot of shit.

[345] This is the opposite schedule of a stand.

[346] Right.

[347] I mean, I would drink like a like two large Dunkin' Donuts coffee.

[348] Oh, yeah.

[349] And I'd eat bags of M &M.

[350] So I was jacked out of my mind.

[351] But how do you feel around noon in those days?

[352] No, you're fucked.

[353] I mean, you know, because, yeah, because you do the show six to nine.

[354] and by 10 I'm heading home and you're just like doing basic shit like going shopping then you're basically you feel like you have the flu all the time yeah like you know you got you like and when are you going to bed 5 p .m. no I would if I didn't get to bed by 830 or so I'd panic yes oh I hate that and then I do comedy on weekends so I was always all fucked up and then like I would get up in the morning like you were probably a joy to live with at that period no one was living with me I was at my apartment I was she was out here at the new house and I was ruining our marriage from across the country calling her up when I got to work at three in the morning my time midnight here like where the fuck were you what's going on oh boy yeah so that was bad this is all sober that's not how one that's all maintains a long distance relationship no dude grill them on their whereabouts at blue right yeah but anyways so the new guy comes in goldberg and he runs me out he it was right after stern and left terrestrial but so we get fired that's what happened.

[355] The whole gang.

[356] Oddly, I don't like giving Danny Goldberg any credit at all because he's a, he really fucked me. And I don't mind saying that.

[357] Yeah, yeah.

[358] It's a resentment that might not go away.

[359] Sure.

[360] I'm willing to have a couple.

[361] Yeah, yeah.

[362] I agree.

[363] I agree.

[364] He did give Rachel Maddow the prime morning spot.

[365] Yeah, Mark Riley, my partner, Oh, that's what she came from is Air America.

[366] Yeah, she was hired as a news reader.

[367] Oh.

[368] At Air America and then became the third on a show.

[369] And then when I was fired, she got, her own two hour chunk of the morning and she was great i mean she's still great i mean it's i that that's why i have cables to watch her right but um but so i got pushed out i came back here uh continued the bad you know the marriage on uh going badly but here's here was the fucked up thing there was a faction within air america that wanted to keep me around yeah there was fighting faction so they come out here and set me up with my own show on ktlk but it's a 10 o 'clock at night show and it's got to go live and the station manager there hates me put me on in Siberia a 10 o 'clock live show that was contractually obligated to the women's basketball and WMBA well whatever the team is here oh yeah yeah there was them and then there was the clippers too right is that the women's no no no the clippers is the male we have the the clippers and the lakers and the men's and then I can't remember the L .A. Either way it was like Like, you know, if that game ran long, we were sitting there waiting.

[370] Yes.

[371] Now, what seems on, it seems hard for me to imagine knowing your personality a bit is that you basically were fired and rehired by that organization four times, right?

[372] Fired.

[373] And then like, yeah, and then I got fired.

[374] Then they put me on the evening show.

[375] Yeah.

[376] And then it was a third time.

[377] I think it was only three times.

[378] And you were able in all those times ago like, because I have to imagine your initial responses.

[379] Fuck you.

[380] you fired me but then you were able to talk yourself off that like i knew the old rich guys but now that thing was like had gone through so much garbage and after i left but now there's a new rich guy he's going to bring it back and i'm like the last thing i really want to do is get back on is work for them at all right but carl's ideas we do a streaming video show that's the thing now streaming video be like the daily show yeah and i'm like you know i'm barely functioning my wife left me i you know i'm emotionally incapacitated comedically i'm you know i'm just like on stage you know yelling and crying uh -huh and uh i didn't think i was capable of doing anything but i needed the money to stop her to keep your house to stop her oh because you needed a lawyer no i had a lawyer but yeah but i was the one with the money and her lawyer was killing me for nothing yes just out of spite sure because she thought she deserved the house and it was in my name and yeah whatever though that whole thing it's weird when you start talking about it how quickly those feelings come back yeah right right yeah and she your heart rate changes yeah she hates me and i and i and i and And she just wants to be done with it.

[381] I don't need to talk about her anymore.

[382] But the deal was Air America, there's a new rich guy.

[383] I got a guy who's going to sponsor me. He says, come out.

[384] We'll do a streaming video.

[385] It'll be funny like a daily show on the computer.

[386] And I'm like, I'm going to need this amount of money up front so I can pay her to stop this shit.

[387] And then I need this amount of money to do the job.

[388] And they did it.

[389] They're all still up there, break room live.

[390] We decided this guy had this idea.

[391] We'd build a studio.

[392] We'd be in the studio.

[393] We were like, no, it needs to be in the break room.

[394] So we're literally in the break room in Air America.

[395] People are like coming to get lunch and stuff.

[396] And they're paying me like hundreds of thousands of dollars and we're in the break room.

[397] And we knew the days were numbered.

[398] Yeah.

[399] You know, it just.

[400] But do you think because there was a web element to that?

[401] Yeah.

[402] That's why you were comfortable doing the podcast.

[403] Is that you saw that as like a viable?

[404] No one watched the, we were way ahead of the curve on streaming video.

[405] No one gave a shit.

[406] YouTube wasn't what it was.

[407] You know, we would stream it live and we'd get like, you know, if we had 815 ,000, you know, 1 ,000 viewers, we were like, we're killing.

[408] Right.

[409] No one gave a shit.

[410] I wasn't watching a thing on the internet in 2009.

[411] Of course not.

[412] No. That's so, 2007.

[413] Oh, 2008.

[414] Yeah, no way.

[415] Stay tuned for more armchair expert if you dare.

[416] What's up guys?

[417] It's your girl Kiki and my podcast is back with a new season.

[418] And let me tell you, it's too good.

[419] And I'm diving into the brains of entertainment's best and brightest, okay?

[420] Every episode, I bring on a friend and have a real conversation.

[421] And I don't mean just friends.

[422] I mean the likes of Amy Poehler, Kell Mitchell, Vivica Fox.

[423] The list goes on.

[424] So follow, watch, and listen to Baby.

[425] This is Kiki Palmer on the Wondery app or wherever you get your podcast.

[426] We've all been there.

[427] Turning to the internet to self -diagnose our inexplicable pains, debilitating body aches, sudden fevers, and strange rashes.

[428] Though our minds tend to spiral to worst -case scenarios, it's usually nothing, but for an unlucky few, these unsuspecting symptoms can start the clock ticking on a terrifying medical mystery.

[429] Like the unexplainable death of a retired firefighter, whose body was found at home by his son, except it looked like he had been cremated, or the time when an entire town started jumping from buildings and seeing tigers on their ceilings.

[430] Hey listeners, it's Mr. Ballin here, and I'm here to tell you about my podcast.

[431] It's called Mr. Ballin's Medical Mysteries.

[432] Each terrifying true story will be sure to keep you up at night.

[433] Follow Mr. Ballin's Medical Mysteries wherever you get your podcasts.

[434] Prime members can listen early and ad free on Amazon Music.

[435] So what happened really was that once they finished that, once they said, we ain't got no money.

[436] It was a relief.

[437] Brendan McDonald, who is my business partner and producer of WTF, was one of the young producers on the original Air America.

[438] He's been with me that long.

[439] Really?

[440] Since 2004 that guy.

[441] Like all the way through.

[442] Like I won't do anything without that guy.

[443] Right, right.

[444] He's genius.

[445] I have people like that in my life.

[446] Yeah.

[447] Monica being one of them.

[448] Oh, nice.

[449] Did it make you more political doing that or less or?

[450] No, what ultimately what really transcended for me and what happened on the original Air America is when I talked about my life, my cats, my weird struggles, those were the segments that resonated that.

[451] people were like writing in saying like that was great story so like i started to realize uh doing the morning show that this was a good format for me that like you know not everybody can translate into this anyone can talk on a mic but what makes people listen who knows what that is yeah but if i lock in i can do that yes so so that was a gift that was something i got from air America, talent that I didn't realize I had and that I really liked.

[452] And once you learn how to handle a mic on your own, just sitting by yourself, that's a very transcendent thing.

[453] It's like finally getting the third ball up in the air when you tried learning at a juggle.

[454] You know, you're like, I can do this.

[455] Yes.

[456] Your preambles on your podcasts, I feel like are like doing stand up with no audience.

[457] Yeah, not necessarily funny.

[458] You just have to have this tremendous conviction that what you're saying will someone will find valuable also you just have to be in it that's the weird thing because i don't outline it really well yeah you have to like you have to be able to sit by yourself and talk to them right yeah you know like because that's the weirdest thing i was terrified of that like if i had it and is your technique do you basically just let us hear the other voice in your head do you have a conversation with yourself is that how you would describe it i i just sort of start on the topic and hopefully it goes somewhere like it's more of an improvisational thing like where you're hoping something on clicking.

[459] It's like thinking out loud more than having a conversation.

[460] And can you feel it viscerally when you're like, ooh, I'm in a sweet spot right now.

[461] Sure, yeah, definitely.

[462] Now, I think I actually will say that or laugh at myself.

[463] Do you get a know, is it annoying at all that there are so many podcasts now?

[464] No, because you're such, you want to be original.

[465] There was a time like at the beginning.

[466] Well, like to get back to what happened with.

[467] So I got fired.

[468] I'll get you where you want to go.

[469] I got fired.

[470] I get fired.

[471] So then we were there.

[472] I was in New York.

[473] You know, my divorce was pretty much over.

[474] And, you know, they didn't kick us out of the building.

[475] So, you know, I said to Brendan, I said, look, you know, there are these guys doing these things.

[476] Can we figure it out?

[477] You know, yeah, but there was only, who had you heard?

[478] I didn't heard anybody.

[479] I just knew they were doing them.

[480] I knew Carolla did it, but he came from radio.

[481] So that seemed like, yeah.

[482] But there were guys that were doing specifically podcast, Kevin Smith, Jimmy Pardo, Jimmy Dore.

[483] Like, not many, the guy but they were guys I kind of knew there were guys in my game you know there were a lot of podcasts around really quick I just love that he's I'll get you where you want he's a pro he knows what to do that was really funny young buck settle down let's walk down and fuck all the sheep we don't need to run down and fuck one no but okay so Brendan figured it out and Apple at that time was like wanting people with some profile or some ability Because ultimately then, and maybe even now, Apple's main reason to have podcasts was for their equipment.

[484] They weren't providing a server.

[485] It was just a portal.

[486] So anything that would make people use iPods more, that was what it was for.

[487] It was really about the equipment.

[488] Right.

[489] Right.

[490] You know, it was really like, you know, they couldn't sell you something that there was nothing to do on it.

[491] That's right.

[492] They couldn't tell you a video game council.

[493] I don't think they knew what was going to happen with podcasts, you know, but certainly, when we started up, you know, I didn't, I was very anti, you know, social media.

[494] I didn't like Facebook.

[495] I still don't.

[496] You know, Twitter was, you know, sort of nascent.

[497] And, you know, I was like, all right, I'll get on, you know.

[498] And, but like, I knew enough to know that in order to get people to listen, I had to call on my friends.

[499] Uh -huh.

[500] Who people liked.

[501] Yeah.

[502] You know, they didn't really know me. I think a lot, like, I made a commitment to not do politics in the podcast, really at all.

[503] I remember being very excited when we had 1 ,500 downloads.

[504] Yeah, that first, but at first 12 or so shows, you can hear, we didn't know what it was.

[505] WTF was this blanket idea that, you know, we were doing, you know, radio style segments.

[506] The interviews were shorter.

[507] I would have two interviews a day, maybe a phone interview.

[508] I had a guy in there sometimes, Matthew, to talk about movies.

[509] So we were trying to feel out what we wanted the show to be.

[510] Yes.

[511] And I said, I tried to set up a studio.

[512] I had these mics on those little, you know, tabletop stands.

[513] Yeah, yeah, right.

[514] And I'd have people and it was in my garage.

[515] was not set up as a studio there was a table and there was still shitting it like garage shit but like it was just my garbage and i i had a mac book i didn't you know i didn't have a mixer i don't think like i would do a longer interview longer monologue and then there was a third segment that was usually we played as sort of a Kaufmanesque fake guessing people didn't know if it was real or not so i get improv actors right you know matt walsh uh um you know jerry minor there's a guy named david waterman that used to do them um paula sheer's wife uh june yeah she was with one did one with matt they were great yeah and i love doing them because people did not know right like if it was real or not you know eventually just evolves away from that third act and it was just became conversations because i was having these conversations with people i knew you know apologizing trying to integrate myself back into the community you know because i'm newly you know i'm free of the divorce i'm strapped.

[516] My comedy career is nowhere.

[517] You know, my, nothing is anywhere.

[518] So the podcast is all I have.

[519] Really.

[520] I'm doing stand -up, but I had no, I couldn't sell tickets or nothing.

[521] Right.

[522] I always had some amount of people respecting me and I could get work.

[523] Can I ask you though really quick?

[524] What were you basing, were you getting any kind of metrics on why the third act was the one to dump?

[525] Or you were just going from your, what you felt was working.

[526] Do you have any data to tell you?

[527] You know what?

[528] Other than downloads?

[529] No. No, no, no, we didn't know.

[530] I just, it just became a difficult.

[531] You could just tell.

[532] It came tricky to book.

[533] Basically, you're making it available to be, you're being pitched by improv people.

[534] Like, you know, like, what do you got?

[535] You got anything.

[536] You're calling up these improv, improvisers, saying you got anything you want to do on the radio.

[537] The guy, David Waterman, I don't know, he would do like these characters that there was like two or three of them on the early shows that it's just nuts.

[538] Like he played a guy who smoked that salvia stuff.

[539] Is that what it's called?

[540] Salvia?

[541] Satiba.

[542] No, no, no. What's the stuff that gives you a quick, massive hallucination?

[543] I know what you're talking about.

[544] There was videos of people who would do it and they would jump out a window or something.

[545] Well, they'd have massive hallucination.

[546] Huge hallucination.

[547] Well, we did that on the air, but it wasn't real.

[548] Right.

[549] You know, but people would be like, is that real?

[550] And he did this other thing of this guy who tracked me down from elementary school on Facebook who I hadn't seen.

[551] And he turned out to be a sociopath.

[552] It was pretty deep stuff.

[553] And these are all archived.

[554] They're all available.

[555] Yeah, they didn't disappear.

[556] None of these disappeared, right?

[557] No, the archive, the most recent 50 are always free.

[558] Uh -huh.

[559] They're free for six months.

[560] Okay.

[561] And then they go behind the paywall, which is howl, howl.

[562] Howl .fm.

[563] To house the archives.

[564] Oh, uh -huh.

[565] So they're all, yeah, they're all available.

[566] You just got to join Howl for like eight bucks or whatever it is.

[567] But to get to your other thing, you're monetizing and metrics.

[568] You know, oh, the only metrics and also jealousy.

[569] So the only metrics, jealousy for me is my main kind of.

[570] Yeah, I was crazy.

[571] I'm crazy.

[572] Yeah, I think so.

[573] But look, I'm imagining myself having been a pioneer in something in 2009.

[574] And then all these people I've interviewed now have their own show.

[575] I feel like it would irk me a bit.

[576] But again, depending on where my own self -esteem was that day, maybe I'd be happy for them.

[577] Maybe I want to tell you specifically.

[578] That was certainly not the case.

[579] What was not the case?

[580] Being happy for somebody is never the first.

[581] Rarely an option.

[582] lately it has been like you know my life has changed enough and certain things have happened around my self -esteem because of accomplishments that enable me to be that way now but not then right and so I basically want I want to tell you why I have one because you're largely to credit for why I started one because I've done a bunch of movies I've done a few TV shows and people you know they tell me what they think of those things when I'm out in the world and And those interactions are never really what I want them to be, for whatever reason.

[583] Either I think, oh, they just recognize me. They don't know what else to say.

[584] So they got to say I love blank, right?

[585] Because they're in an awkward situation.

[586] Or if my self -esteem's really high and they say that was great, I think, great, but I know that's not going to fill up the hole.

[587] So it doesn't matter, right?

[588] Point is, of all the things I've done, the way people have talked to me about my interview on your show has been really profound.

[589] It's made me feel wonderful in a way that no response to anything I've ever done really has.

[590] I'd say your show and Sam Jones.

[591] And both of those were like, you know, his is an hour long format.

[592] I don't know how long you and I talked.

[593] But I've had people say to me like, oh, you know, man, I'll check in with that episode like every few weeks.

[594] Like your story really.

[595] And I go, holy shit, that means a ton to me. because someone didn't write that for me. I wasn't a great director or it's not the, you know, I didn't benefit from a super well choreographed anything.

[596] It's just who I am.

[597] And wow, that affected somebody that makes me feel really fucking good.

[598] More than any of the other stuff.

[599] Right.

[600] And I thought, fuck, I like that.

[601] That feels nice.

[602] I would like to do that more.

[603] And it's really because of you.

[604] So I could, at one time I could see where, if I were you would be like, awesome, dude.

[605] You're that you started, the millionth podcast, but I just want you to know why I would want to do what you do because it is important.

[606] Yeah, I'm very flattered.

[607] And I'm glad that you had that experience.

[608] Your show has this huge reach, which I don't have to tell you about.

[609] But there are different things where you do them and then they surprise you their reach.

[610] One of them is Stern.

[611] Like when I did Stern, I'm like, holy fuck, so many people listen to Stern.

[612] Or I'm at least judging that based on like Twitter response and stuff, right?

[613] And that people have been with him for years.

[614] Yeah, every day.

[615] their whole life, some people, you know.

[616] And, and then your show is very similar to that because if people, they listen to it, it's not like they, they listen to it as they would watch a TV show, two and a half men.

[617] This is like a part of their identity in some weird way.

[618] That's true for some people.

[619] Yeah.

[620] And that's really cool.

[621] And they're in a relationship with you.

[622] Yes.

[623] And they can, they don't have to be entertained per se.

[624] They don't have to be, you know, there's all.

[625] They're just in a relationship with you.

[626] And they enjoy.

[627] They're just in a relationship with you.

[628] And they enjoy.

[629] relationship.

[630] Right.

[631] And it's very unique and cool.

[632] It's wild.

[633] Yeah, it took a long time to sort of realize that.

[634] But, you know, when people come up to me, they're like, you know, I know you really well.

[635] But you don't know me at all.

[636] Yes.

[637] And I'm like, that's true.

[638] Yeah.

[639] I'm sorry.

[640] But I hope you're having a good relationship with me. Yeah.

[641] And wow, I hadn't even thought of that element, but I'll say that when people knew me from movies, yeah, there was a big separation.

[642] Right.

[643] And then when people knew me from parenthood, I was in their living room and I actually could feel that people talk about is like oh if you're in people's living room once a week yeah they do feel like they know you even more and then of course your or that character that care yes yes my girlfriend's a big fan of parenthood is there one of her things she watched who's your girlfriend right now sarah kane she's a painter yeah the pain yeah but oh but the jealousy thing for me was that you know a lot of the guys that did the that have the big podcast now yeah they did come after me or around the same time Like, you know, Hardwick and Rogan, you know, was a little after me. I think they were both a little after me, really.

[644] Right.

[645] And then there are a lot of people that can't.

[646] It's just.

[647] Hardwick's, though, is so genuine.

[648] Don't you agree?

[649] At least it clearly, it reeks of like a genuine interest in the thing he's talking about.

[650] I guess, you know, I, you know, I've always had a problem.

[651] We've had problems over the years.

[652] I've had problems with all of them over the years.

[653] Yeah, yeah.

[654] In my own mind.

[655] Sure.

[656] You know, but I had them on.

[657] and I try to reconcile it.

[658] And, you know, so he told me the other day that he, you, you were instrumental in him getting sober.

[659] That's right.

[660] Right.

[661] No matter what thing you do or don't have with him.

[662] That's right.

[663] Yeah, he is, you know, he ultimately, you were the first person I think he talked to.

[664] I remember when he was pudgy and sweaty and drunk at Gallif and Atch and I knew him there in Venice.

[665] Yeah, I think that's when it happened.

[666] Yeah.

[667] Where he was just like.

[668] And, uh, look, he's all right.

[669] You know, I just, I found it to be, um, I told him to his face.

[670] I said, you know, I think you're, what are you trying to be?

[671] The nerd Ryan Seacrest?

[672] He's like, I would love to be.

[673] That's what he's doing.

[674] You know, like, yeah.

[675] I mean, you know, he's a good broadcaster.

[676] He's a, you know, a good personality.

[677] You know, he, he is broad enough that his appeal is, is vast.

[678] He also seems to have the unique gift of being able to juggle a million things at once.

[679] Like, yeah, no, he has so much.

[680] I'm the, I have to be singular.

[681] I can't even, I can't even answer an email from you.

[682] I don't even have a, I can't even manage my email account.

[683] Yeah, yeah.

[684] So I have to be so singular focused on something, or I just don't do a very good job at it.

[685] So I'm impressed with his ability to.

[686] He knows how to deliberate power.

[687] You know, like he.

[688] Delegate, right?

[689] He trusts me. I didn't mean to say that to correct you.

[690] I think that's right.

[691] I use the wrong words all the time.

[692] I don't do that well.

[693] Do you delegate?

[694] No, I don't.

[695] And me and my partner, Brendan, we don't.

[696] And we didn't, we didn't build a network.

[697] We're not part of a network.

[698] You know, we run our own shop, you know, because we're, you know, we're very control freaky about, you know, the quality of what we're doing.

[699] Yes.

[700] You know, but, you know, I don't know that you necessarily become rich like that.

[701] Right.

[702] In the way that Chris wanted to be rich.

[703] Like, if you want to be rich.

[704] How important is being rich to you?

[705] Well, it's not.

[706] I mean, I'm glad I'm making money and I'm glad, you know, that things worked out for me. Yeah.

[707] And that, you know, I'm making a healthy living.

[708] But it was never, never.

[709] It's not an obsession of yours.

[710] No, no, no. You don't suffer from.

[711] fear of economic insecurity.

[712] I do suffer from that.

[713] But that doesn't mean I want to be rich.

[714] I just want to be economically secure.

[715] Yeah, but what does that mean?

[716] I mean, I guess that.

[717] Well, I don't want to worry about money.

[718] Yeah.

[719] But I don't need, I don't need $100 million.

[720] Right.

[721] You don't lay in bed going, fuck, I got to get this number.

[722] If I get this number, I'll be safe.

[723] No, well, there's that, but it's not that big a number.

[724] Okay.

[725] But like somebody.

[726] Louis seems to have a similar relationship with money, or at least if I'm to believe him, Stern, which is he doesn't worry about it, doesn't think about it, doesn't care about it.

[727] Yes.

[728] He just, but he spends it.

[729] He needs to spend money to make it.

[730] Like he used to, you know, like he, like if he, when he makes bad financial decisions, it forces him to work.

[731] Right.

[732] He's one of those guys.

[733] I'm not that guy.

[734] He's not, I'm not going to lose everything to, you know, to force my hand on generating something new.

[735] He also has the probably the unique ability to just go out on the road at any given not right now yeah he had i should have said he had the unique ability to at any point go fuck it i'm just going to go do 12 dates or that's right yeah i i don't you know we haven't been talking i you know i've reached out i you know i don't know how he's feeling about things but yeah before uh the shit hit the fan with him uh yeah he could do that like you know if he was in a pinch yeah that's kind of a superpower it's well it's good if you have a following that's about an audience but the jealousy thing like like like well chris obviously had a plan to take over the world Chris Hardrick wanted to be, you know, have an empire, and also an assets that he could sell.

[736] You know, like he, that was a plan.

[737] I know other people, entrepreneurial people that are like that.

[738] And are you judgmental of that plan?

[739] Or are you like, that's a fine plan to have?

[740] No, it's fine with me. I, you know, my problems with him were ultimately around like, are you a comic, you know, and do you give a shit?

[741] Uh -huh.

[742] You know, like, what are you creating?

[743] Is this just a brand?

[744] Who are you in there?

[745] Yeah.

[746] You know, and it, but it ultimately seems to be, I want to interrupt you, this seems to be a theme with this within standups, right?

[747] So yeah.

[748] It feels exclusionary to me, right?

[749] Because I did sketch comedy, but that wouldn't be a comedian in your book, right?

[750] No, I thought I, but I, that's not the point.

[751] You're not doing comedy.

[752] You're not, you're not going up there being a standup.

[753] Like I wouldn't judge you, you know, like, you know what I mean?

[754] Like, I knew Hardwick when he was like, you know, it's sort of like drunky, broie.

[755] you know, host on MTV.

[756] Right.

[757] Like he came to stand up later.

[758] But, you know, by this point, he certainly paid his dues and he's got an audience and, you know, he can do it.

[759] Yeah.

[760] You know, but there was always something within me. Like, before I, when I was younger, it was like, stand -ups, they'd happen a certain way.

[761] We'd pay our dues a certain way.

[762] Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[763] That's what I'm wondering.

[764] Is it that you, like, is it, is it, is it, is it, because there's, there's so much suffering in doing stand -up from, from the beginning, however long you do it.

[765] There's just a lot of fucking pain and suffering.

[766] right if you become a...

[767] For some people, that's what I learned of after doing the show.

[768] You can't generalize.

[769] And a lot of great comic minds are not fucked up.

[770] You know, there's a lot of people that are very talented.

[771] There's two.

[772] Yeah, Will Farrell and someone else.

[773] But no, but I mean, people come from a lot of different places.

[774] I've loosened my bitterness and judgment around how people pay the kids.

[775] But even if it was true or not true, if your experience was a tremendous amount of pain and suffering and living...

[776] Well, it was just a paying your dues.

[777] It wasn't a pain and suffering that.

[778] You know, you know, there was a, way to, to, you know, be a comic.

[779] And now it doesn't exist.

[780] That training does not exist in the same way.

[781] Right.

[782] But, but, um, I'm not a musician.

[783] Uh, so I can, I can certainly understand if you're a musician and you watch American Idol, you go, this is bullshit.

[784] This is like, you're taking a shortcut, right?

[785] But you could also lose sight of the fact that, well, Kelly Clarkson is still a fucking amazing singer, right?

[786] Like, so, you know, at the end of the day, I guess I'm, what I'm, what I'm curious about is that I don't think you see in like, you know, I don't know what occupation where as other people enter it or get known for it, they're mad that other people have entered.

[787] So for Chris, he has the label of a comedian and that doesn't feel earned.

[788] It did for a while, but like I think what he is as a host, you know, which is a comedian's job.

[789] It's one of the job is available to comedians.

[790] But I think I think he's always been a host.

[791] And, you know, the comedy thing was good, got him some chops, you know, he can go out and tour a little bit, tell his nerd stories.

[792] But, you know, I think that his job in show business is a host and he's fine with that job.

[793] You know, whether it's a game show host or a talk show host, you know, he's a host guy.

[794] Now, when you were doing stand -up and you were looking at other stand -ups, the trajectory used to be right in the 90s is if you were a breakout stand -up, you then got a sitcom.

[795] You got a deal, you know, I mean, that was the model for a while based on, you know, a few people.

[796] people back in the day, Roseanne and everything.

[797] There was a model where you could just buy a comic with a point of view.

[798] Give them, give them a deal and then get a writer with them.

[799] And, you know, let's see if we can get it up and going.

[800] And did you, was that a path that you saw yourself on?

[801] It was just something that you, you know, you expected.

[802] You know, you work hard enough.

[803] So, like, where's my deal?

[804] You know, I got a deal back then, you know, and, you know, I wrote it out for a couple of scripts that never went to pilot.

[805] You know, I had a small deal or two coming up.

[806] I had all those opportunities that never went anywhere.

[807] Right.

[808] The podcast is what, you know, got me everything that I have.

[809] And that's something I did on my own.

[810] You know, like, but some guys, you know, we're like, fuck the deals or whatever.

[811] Well, the whole reason I'm asking you is that I got us, in full honesty, I was blown away with how good you are on Glow.

[812] Like, sincerely, our friend Jackie's on the show.

[813] So we were compelled to check it out.

[814] And as we're checking it out to watch Jackie, I'm going, fucking Marin is, it's such a bullseye.

[815] You're so good at it.

[816] And I think an outsider who doesn't know about it would go, oh, he's just being himself, which as someone who's been doing this for 25 years, it's the fucking hardest thing in the world to do yourself weirdly.

[817] It takes the utmost confidence because none of us think we're interesting enough to just be, right?

[818] Well, I think that with him, with Sam Sylvia, you know, having done four seasons of my own show.

[819] And, you know, that came because of the podcast, you know, got me the following.

[820] it got me, you know, stand -up attention.

[821] It got me the TV show, the last book.

[822] So ultimately, on some level, not so much glow.

[823] But, like, I'd always wanted to do that.

[824] But I think knowing how - They just offered that to you, though, I assume.

[825] Oh, you read for it?

[826] They didn't know what they wanted.

[827] And, you know, I wasn't really looking.

[828] I'd just finished my show, but I wanted to do some acting.

[829] And they sent me a script, my manager did.

[830] And I'm like, I can do this guy.

[831] And I put it on, you know, we videotied it.

[832] Right.

[833] You know, I put some glasses on, self -taped.

[834] I put a lacrosse shirt on, some aviator glasses.

[835] I read with my personal trainer lady, who wants to be an actress.

[836] Oh, good.

[837] Because it would be something if she had zero interest in reading.

[838] No, no, she did it.

[839] And they cast me, you know, Genji liked me. I don't think the showrunners were initially sold from what I understand, but Genji, who was producing it, Jenji Koham was like, that's your guy.

[840] So, but with that guy, you know, parts of that guy live in me. and, you know, and also that guy gives me license, you know, to maybe, like, you know, exploring, you know, sexism and, and, and sort of being a bully and, uh, but also being, you know, fundamentally insecure and, and someone who, who is, life isn't working out for.

[841] Right.

[842] So I could, I, I could identify with that.

[843] Yeah.

[844] But I make certain choices in that character that are not me. Like, I think in this.

[845] But you do, you just mentioned it.

[846] You have some cover fire of it being set in the 80.

[847] right sure like you can as you say you can be more sexist you can no it's written that way yeah but isn't that liberating in a weird way because i think do you like myself you kind of in a weird way you lament the that basically any kind of racial observations are off the table now any kind of female male observations like comedy has been stifled a bit lately right you got pushed through you know like you got pushed through like i think that you know this right now um it's volatile but but but but But there's going to be a balance.

[848] You know, I mean, it's going to, like, you know, what's happening is righteous.

[849] But, like, ultimately, you know, we can't walk around, you know, completely self -censoring.

[850] Right.

[851] And, like, how it shakes out culturally with men and women, you know, that's always an ongoing project.

[852] But for me to, you know, to be able to do that guy.

[853] But then to find a heart in that guy and to find a kindred spirit.

[854] in Allison's character.

[855] Like I just, you know, I've talked to a lot of actors.

[856] I've done, I've played myself.

[857] I know I learned how to be on camera and stuff.

[858] So that stuff was a great education.

[859] You, through the hundreds of hours you've done of the podcast and you've gotten a response that says you are interesting.

[860] You know, you are.

[861] You have a quality that's worth paying attention to.

[862] Do you think that gave you a confidence acting?

[863] Well, oddly.

[864] you know, I was very nervous at the beginning of my own show, but walking on the glow, I knew like, this isn't on my shoulders.

[865] I'm not producing.

[866] I'm not writing.

[867] You know, like, I got to put this guy's pants on and find out, you know, who he is, you know, which is, oddly, you know, you put the pants on.

[868] It makes a big difference.

[869] You know, you shave my soul patch off, put the glasses on, got my hair going.

[870] And I read the script.

[871] And so I wasn't that nervous, maybe the first day or two.

[872] Yeah.

[873] But like you go scene for seniors.

[874] compartmentalize.

[875] Like, I'm able to memorize lines.

[876] You know, like, I can do that.

[877] I was doing a show, my show.

[878] I was in every scene.

[879] And I was writing it.

[880] So like, you know, and we didn't have a budget.

[881] And we had, we were shooting.

[882] You were doing eight to 15 days.

[883] But it's way easier to memorize your own writing, isn't it?

[884] Yeah, but it wasn't really my writing.

[885] I had a writer's room.

[886] Oh, okay.

[887] You know, but still, but every scene.

[888] So like, I just got into a system.

[889] Yeah.

[890] Of like, you know, like, you know, after a certain point, you, you can't do the night before shit because you can familiarize yourself of what's going to happen.

[891] You know, I can know, the story and and read the lines and maybe if you got a big speech or something maybe try to get that in your head but ultimately you're going to do it when you're there yeah and you're with your co -stars and you're like let's run this let's run it let's run it and then you know you're going to do several different angles of coverage and you can work it that way yeah but like for me like it's more get a sense of it look at it read it out loud memorize if you can but you know be in it the day But it is liberating, isn't?

[892] Because I went from doing a couple year long bit of work where I was only acting in what I had written and directed, right?

[893] Yeah.

[894] And then the first time last year did another person's movie.

[895] And I got there.

[896] I was like, oh, right.

[897] This is fun.

[898] I get to just concentrate on this moment.

[899] Right.

[900] And that's really fun and liberating.

[901] Like, there was an airiness to risk turning to that.

[902] Yeah.

[903] Like, there is the element with me. Let the other person worry about the full story.

[904] that's being told and I just got to be honest about this moment and they'll tell me if that doesn't work in the full story exactly that's nice that's a way to look that's a good way to look at it and I started to look at that more that way in the second season but for me like it's like I've been here three hours and you know I'm not complaining but I you know there's a lot of things I do and there's some part of acting when you're when you're there for the day and you're shooting one scene yeah and your downtime is like five or six hours it's rough where you're like sort of I could have been doing the you know it's my number one trigger which is I I hate being a part of a bad plan like if I'm at a friend's house and they want to move a couch through a fucking doorway and I can see that the person calling out which way to tilt it is doing it's I find it insufferable I just can't be a part of a terrible plan and quite often on a set you're a part of this really poorly laid plan into their credit like I didn't live far from set so like there were times where I'm like how long does it it's going to be three hours you think like the AD would tell me, you know, and I'd be like, I'm going to go home.

[905] Yeah.

[906] And they'd let me know.

[907] It wasn't, it was just me adjusting to a lot of being on a set is waiting.

[908] And, you know, and how do you spend that time?

[909] But like, I generally sit on set.

[910] I watch the other people work.

[911] I'll fucking, you know, I'll, you know, I'll read a bit.

[912] I'll look at my phone.

[913] And are you, are you kind of revered there?

[914] Is it like a fun thing for you to be the older member of the cast and a lot of, I don't know.

[915] I don't know.

[916] You know, the girls have got a lot to do.

[917] The women have, you know, they're wrestling.

[918] And they're like, everybody sort of doing their work that's what's amazing about it i there's like 13 14 women there just in the in cast and they're working where everyone's working you know we socialize and stuff but but it's intense you know and their jobs are a little more intense but i was just happy that you know like this second season like there were times where i'm like am i doing the guy or am i just being me like uh so can i just tell you i remember coming home in season two of parenthood and i said to christin i don't know if i've gotten lazy or something like i feel like i'm not putting in the work right right I just had this weird pang of guilt that it was too easy.

[919] Yeah.

[920] And she goes, oh, no, and that's what being on a TV show is.

[921] It gets progressively easier every year because you just know the character so well.

[922] You don't even have to really think about it.

[923] And she was right.

[924] I got better as an actor on it, but I was doing less and less and less.

[925] But it was a weird thing.

[926] Oh, so that's good to hear.

[927] Yeah.

[928] That's helpful.

[929] You're most certainly, if you have that feeling, you're getting better at the role.

[930] Oh, good.

[931] And by, you know, however many, I hope for you a dozen seasons, it just gets easier and easier.

[932] And for us, like six year, I was like, I could read a scene in the makeup trailer five minutes before we shot.

[933] And it would be better than when I had worked on shit for two days.

[934] That's what I'm saying.

[935] Yeah.

[936] Yeah, it's wild, right?

[937] And then you can also, that muscle, you can memorize shit way fast.

[938] Or at least I could.

[939] All of a sudden, you could hand me a scene.

[940] I could do it 10 minutes later.

[941] That's right.

[942] I don't think everybody can do that.

[943] But I mean, it's a good thing to be able to do.

[944] I really assume everyone can do it because I was so bad at memorizing when I started the show and I had all this anxiety about it.

[945] And Kristen goes, no, no, honey.

[946] you're going to be it's going to get really easy for you and I'm like no but I'm dyslexic and I it won't be that way for me and it was it was exactly that way for me and I think that was generally huh but here's what I want to tell you about jealousy to is that like it's it it it's not nearly as bad as it used to be ultimately over time once all of us sort of figured out how to make our shows our own and make a living at it or make some money or do whatever the hell we were doing I became less obsessed with other people I just do the job um I want to know because you've had a fucking pretty awesome last few years, right?

[947] Yeah.

[948] And I think if we're as similar as I think we are, you tell yourself all growing up, like, if I have this, I'm going to feel this way.

[949] If I have this amount of money, I'll feel this way.

[950] If I have this amount of success, I'll feel this way.

[951] I'll like myself.

[952] My self -esteem will be good.

[953] You said something earlier that goes contrary to my experience, which is it sounds like the success has healed some stuff for you.

[954] Do you think that's accurate?

[955] Definitely.

[956] It has.

[957] Yeah.

[958] interesting because my my my experience is okay i got this stuff i wanted i feel the same exact way about myself and then the things i've discovered that give me self -esteem are not related at all to the things i thought would give me self -esteem well some things i yeah i understand that i'm shocked to hear that yours is different i don't know if it's different i think that the things that you probably find and give you self -esteem i could probably use more of because the fundamental insecurities or tapes that I tell myself around, you know, how I look or or whether I'm funny and that, though, that's, that's tempered a little bit.

[959] Like I, the thing that's happened for me because, you know, most of my career is self -designed, whether it be stand -up or the podcast or the show, is that I can see very clearly that I've gotten better at all of them, you know, which means that I've worked hard and, you know, I can now see that I can do things.

[960] Like, I know the limitations of my talent, but I also know where I can push it a little harder.

[961] And I'm okay with that.

[962] I have a certain amount of self -acceptance around my shortcomings, right?

[963] Yeah.

[964] So.

[965] And by the way, that's an esteemable act.

[966] Getting better at something, improving on something, working hard at something.

[967] That is something that can improve yourself.

[968] That's right.

[969] But going to the SAG Awards and I don't know, Billy Bob Thornton says hi to you.

[970] For me, like, you know, like I, there was a period there during the show where, like, people would say, like, you know, but I do stand up too.

[971] Like the podcast was like this default, you know, but then it became something I was very good at me and then became respected at it.

[972] You know, like for some reason I had a knack for talking to people in a certain way that was uniquely mine.

[973] And so I started to accept that.

[974] So now I accept like, I don't ask people when they say, I like your show.

[975] I'm like, which, you know, like, yeah, what was your favorite?

[976] What one did you like?

[977] My TV show, Glow, the podcast.

[978] What, what do you like?

[979] Because I want to know how I feel about it.

[980] I'll just say thank you.

[981] Yeah.

[982] And then if the conversation continues, usually.

[983] I can figure it out.

[984] But what ultimately, you know, has happened is that, you know, my partner and I, we were not entrepreneurs.

[985] We did not set out to make money.

[986] We had no idea.

[987] You know, he was probably going to be a career guy, you know, in satellite radio or, or, or, or a news television of some sort.

[988] And, you know, I was going to, you know, bounce around for whatever, however long, and B rooms or whatever.

[989] So the fact that was we got into this medium early enough to where it was nebulous.

[990] People didn't know.

[991] How do you make money?

[992] and not lose listeners.

[993] How do you, how do we do this?

[994] I mean, I was packing envelopes sending swag packets to people that donated, you know, on PayPal.

[995] Right.

[996] In the first year or two.

[997] Yeah.

[998] So we evolved with the business and we built a business and we run a business.

[999] And, you know, I'm very proud of him.

[1000] And, you know, he's, you know, he came full time with me for years ago.

[1001] You know, like he was working.

[1002] He couldn't even say he was producing my show because he was doing it, you know, on his own time, you know, working on MSNBC.

[1003] shows you know doing like he he was moonlighting on your show right and the the fact that like when he said i'm going to come on i'm like you know what don't you know i i can go down but you know you got a kid i don't want you going down with me he's like i'm not i did the research you know don't worry about it yeah yeah so like the fact that he bought his first house and you know and i you know and i'm part of that that you know that's esteemable to me that we built this thing together you know with not knowing anything and in a new medium yeah and then like the fact that like i don't get scared I'm not scared to stand up anymore.

[1004] I'm not scared to acting anymore.

[1005] I do get scared when I have to talk to people.

[1006] But that's okay.

[1007] You know, because you don't know how it's going to go.

[1008] You know what I mean?

[1009] So that stuff.

[1010] But the part of your story that I do think is people could gleam something from or take as advice which you would never give.

[1011] But just reading about you last night, I saw in you someone that you put a million fucking pokers in the fire.

[1012] Like you tried a million different things.

[1013] And you stayed active and you were obviously, it's obvious now, you were open to whatever way the river was flowing, ultimately, right?

[1014] So you had an idea of who you were going to be.

[1015] I don't know who that was fucking Richard Pryor or something.

[1016] And then somehow, but you stayed busy.

[1017] You did a bunch of things.

[1018] You're doing radio.

[1019] You start a podcast.

[1020] And then you're open to the fact that you might be great at something you didn't pick for yourself.

[1021] Well, I'd like to, I'd like to it have been as pleasantly framed as you're framing it.

[1022] But like, what happened to me is that, yeah, I wanted to be a comedian.

[1023] Yeah.

[1024] Yeah, I wanted to be a great comedian.

[1025] And, you know, I'm a pretty great comedian.

[1026] But the fact was that when the podcast happened, I had to fully accept in my heart because if I didn't, I would be delusional that, you know, I probably wasn't going to be on TV show.

[1027] I probably wasn't going to be a great comedian.

[1028] Like, I wasn't going to sell the tickets.

[1029] Like, I hit a wall.

[1030] And, you know, and I didn't know what to do.

[1031] I didn't want to be a no -name comic doing B -rooms for the rest of my life.

[1032] I'd rather die.

[1033] so like I had to let a lot of shit go.

[1034] it's all identity shit, right?

[1035] You had an identity.

[1036] You had this identity.

[1037] I worked towards it, though.

[1038] But it was work and it didn't work.

[1039] It didn't work.

[1040] I've been doing comedy for 15, 20 years at that point.

[1041] It didn't work.

[1042] But that takes strength.

[1043] And that's something that I hope people will kind of think about is like, okay, well, I have picked this identity for myself.

[1044] but I would encourage people to be a little fluid about that and be a little open to that.

[1045] Oh, yeah.

[1046] We're not the best at picking our identity.

[1047] That's right.

[1048] But my flexibility was always, you know, it was like I was always kind of like beaten.

[1049] You know, like it was never like.

[1050] You weren't on top going, okay, and I'm going to try this.

[1051] No, no, no. Like I did radio because like I had nothing going on.

[1052] Yeah.

[1053] And when I. But one thing that's obvious about you is you, you have the crazy fucking drive.

[1054] I don't know.

[1055] Your dad was a surgeon, right?

[1056] So you're type A in some capacity probably.

[1057] But you have this incredible drive.

[1058] you're indomitable right you've had your ass kicked a trillion fucking times and then you keep starting over yeah but like you get because like the weird thing is that for someone who doesn't think about money you know when someone is taking all your money and you know you're like there there really does become this weird kind of grown up moment where you're like how the fuck am i going to survive uh -huh you know what am i what am i going to do like i'm 40 whatever i was when i started the podcast like i can't i'm not going to try to write on someone's show you know if I can't, you know, I really don't want to just like spend my life on the road not being known.

[1059] Yeah.

[1060] Like there's, and the word thing is, it's like I had powerful representation to some degree, but, you know, we had a lot of shots.

[1061] Yeah.

[1062] And, you know, and I'd seen when you're in this business, you see it go badly for people.

[1063] Oh, sure.

[1064] You see people more often than it goes well for people.

[1065] Like, so all this was compounded.

[1066] I see when I've, I've witnessed that a bunch of times on my short ride.

[1067] And what I generally see is kind of just a lack of flexibility.

[1068] Like they, they were they were not able to be able they might not have the talent to it you know who the hell knows you know whether someone's stubborn or they just can't do the other thing i mean like i was fortunate enough that i don't know what it was dax but yeah flexibility it was out of necessity yeah but you know like if you're encouraging people to do that without it having being desperate great give it a try yeah but the funny thing is is that pride you know leading the parade so to speak in determining what you see yourself as, you know, even when it's not happening in any way can completely delude you.

[1069] Yeah.

[1070] You know, and, you know, and then, oh, yeah.

[1071] So, like, you know, and you're still fighting a war.

[1072] It's like putting a welding mask on.

[1073] You just can't see anything.

[1074] And everyone else sees it.

[1075] Yeah, it's very obvious to everyone else.

[1076] Look at that guy.

[1077] He's got no clothes on.

[1078] My very, I promise, last question is, can you be a victim of your own comedic persona?

[1079] And I'm going to, yeah, that's very funny.

[1080] Because it's a point of view.

[1081] it is point of view but here's what specifically what you ever see that Bobby fisher documentary on HBO the chess champion so he was a grandmaster and he was a champion and then eventually he became paranoid right like a clinical paranoid and he's gone bad shit crazy I think he lives in Iceland he's an anti -Semitic now and all this crazy stuff but in that documentary they said oh all these all these past grandmasters have become paranoid the reason being is all day long they sit there and they forecast doom, right?

[1082] If I move here, he's going to move here, right?

[1083] And so the part of the brain they're using eight hours a day is getting stronger and stronger and stronger.

[1084] And then they can't unwire their brain.

[1085] Now they're always forecasting doom everywhere they go at right aid, no matter where they're at.

[1086] But they also need to structure the world in a way that they have some control over.

[1087] Like I think that paranoia creates its own dogma.

[1088] Like, you know, like you create a system that makes you believe you understand how the world works.

[1089] Yeah.

[1090] And that's what chess is.

[1091] Do you play chess?

[1092] No. I don't fucking do that.

[1093] But the reason I was thinking of it is, so I've done Leno's like car show a couple times.

[1094] I've been on his show, right?

[1095] And I've been to his garage, Jay Leno.

[1096] And he told me at one point, like, you know, I said, where's your wife?

[1097] How's she doing?

[1098] He said, oh, she's on a vacation, you know, I go, do you ever go with her on vacation?

[1099] Yeah, you go, I don't go on vacation.

[1100] I got to work, right?

[1101] And so that is his persona is that he's, blue collar and he works a lot.

[1102] And I get it.

[1103] It's very successful for him.

[1104] But then at a certain point, I'm pulling back going, yeah, but you should go on vacation and you should swim in your pool.

[1105] You can very easily become a victim of your own persona.

[1106] Oh yeah.

[1107] And I, and yours is a little bit grumpy, right?

[1108] Your persona.

[1109] Yeah.

[1110] And then I just wonder how you keep that in check.

[1111] No, I'm fighting it.

[1112] Like, I don't really want to be grumpy.

[1113] And like I just.

[1114] And do you have a fear that if you transition into like a very happy grateful person it's not a fear i i think that like you know a lot of those things aren't really conscious is that you know you've got a way of being that you know is sort of home base for you for most of your life uh -huh so like it's a little harder to it's hard to just decide not to do that anymore uh but the flexibility thing i think you know i'd have no awareness of it if i hadn't lived with christ in the last 10 years and i watch someone doing virtually the opposite of what i do yeah in every situation yeah my girlfriend yeah my girlfriend And it checks me like that.

[1115] Yeah.

[1116] And then getting these rewards that I was searching for, right?

[1117] I get very obsessed with dumb shit.

[1118] You know, like I just bought a new house.

[1119] And it's really like, I waited a long time.

[1120] You know, I've lived in that same house that I lived in, you know, the only house ever bought was that one.

[1121] Yeah, where the podcast started.

[1122] Yeah.

[1123] You know, and I finally just sort of like, fuck it.

[1124] I got no wife.

[1125] I got no kids.

[1126] What am I going to do?

[1127] Like, I'm going to buy, you know, get a new house, you idiot, you know, live life.

[1128] And I, and I love the new house.

[1129] Uh -huh.

[1130] But, like, I'm still a little hung up on it.

[1131] Is there a little voice, yeah, going, this is dangerous?

[1132] No, the voice is like, how much do I got to pay and have this place cleaned every week?

[1133] Oh, right.

[1134] You know, like, you know, like, you know, like, can I afford this?

[1135] You know, like, I don't never think of myself as somebody who earns money, you know, or that's going to keep earning money.

[1136] So, you know, so that makes me nervous, but I get over that.

[1137] But then I get obsessed with like, did I get the right chair?

[1138] Is this the right chair?

[1139] That can go on for months.

[1140] Why did I get that fucking chair?

[1141] Right.

[1142] So, you know.

[1143] It's very stressful.

[1144] these chairs we select they can bring you down yeah well i love you mark mary and i'm really glad that we we navigated that texting exchange and again i'm going to give all credit to you you are you were very sober in your response and uh you're applying it to all your affairs why i applaud i'm trying and i appreciate i love you too and i i when i wrote that response i'm like he's a sober guy i'm going sober i'm going to go straight i take responsibility how can we yeah yeah You should have almost put, like, number nine next to it.

[1145] That would have been condescending.

[1146] Well, that's true.

[1147] That's true.

[1148] Yeah, or maybe it would be 10.

[1149] It'd be 10.

[1150] You'd put 10 next to it.

[1151] But anyways, I really, and the fact that you came so quickly after that exchange.

[1152] I was panicked.

[1153] Like, I'm going to get over there.

[1154] And I actually had anxiety.

[1155] Like, what if I forget?

[1156] And then it'll just be worse and tax will feel worse.

[1157] And, like, Kristen, will never do the show.

[1158] And they're both going to hate me. Like, and I was in traffic.

[1159] I'm like, oh, I'm going to be late.

[1160] Oh, my.

[1161] God, this is going to, what will America's lovebirds do in retribution?

[1162] Well, I, I swear to you hear publicly that I'm going to personally drive her to your house to do your podcast.

[1163] All right, good.

[1164] And then what are you just going to hang out?

[1165] I'm going to jerk off.

[1166] You can do it in my empty house.

[1167] Stay tuned if you'd like to hear my good friend and producer Monica Padman point out the many errors in the podcast you just heard.

[1168] Monica Padman?

[1169] Jack Shepard?

[1170] Mark Maren.

[1171] What happened?

[1172] So this is kind of a weird fact check, but I'm going to do it.

[1173] Okay.

[1174] When you're talking about your text exchange.

[1175] He and I's.

[1176] Yep.

[1177] Yeah.

[1178] You went into my phone without my knowledge.

[1179] No, but sort of.

[1180] I know the details of this conversation because I was involved because you included me in.

[1181] Oh, right.

[1182] I sent you like a screen grab or something.

[1183] So Mark said you waited until the next day to respond.

[1184] And you said, no, it was that night because we had gone to dinner and then we had watched Peaky Blinders.

[1185] Yeah.

[1186] And then you responded.

[1187] So it must have been three hours later.

[1188] That's what you said.

[1189] But he is right.

[1190] Oh, really?

[1191] Yes.

[1192] Because it was Saturday that this exchange happened, this text exchange.

[1193] Okay.

[1194] Sunday is when we all went to dinner and we all watched Peaky Blinders.

[1195] Saturday, you guys had this exchange after during, I don't know, Ellen's birthday party.

[1196] Okay.

[1197] And then it must have been after when you got home.

[1198] home and then you fell asleep and then you responded the next morning well well oh I do oh oh you did okay okay okay continue on continue on I'm just gonna I'm gonna I'm gonna now I got a fact check your fact check okay you can I have it in my phone too because you sent them to me okay um don't out me for sending you by the way anyone who ever texts me I um I screen grab it and I sent it directly to Monica.

[1199] I only said that because you told you said that in the episode.

[1200] Yes.

[1201] Okay.

[1202] So, um, okay.

[1203] So I'm just going to see.

[1204] Uh, so the text was sent Tuesday, November 29th to, oh, that's no, that's 2016.

[1205] That's, that's not it.

[1206] Okay.

[1207] Oh, okay.

[1208] So Saturday, February 10th, 2018, he sent me a text.

[1209] at 7 .17 p .m. I responded at 11 .15 p .m. 4 hours later.

[1210] Yeah.

[1211] Not the next day.

[1212] But you responded with your antagonistic.

[1213] Yeah.

[1214] He's talking about when you then said, when you came back around, you waited until the next day to do that.

[1215] And you did.

[1216] You waited until the morning.

[1217] Um, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

[1218] Yep, you're right.

[1219] You're right.

[1220] You're right.

[1221] You're right.

[1222] You're right.

[1223] Yeah, because he, because I sent him one at 1119.

[1224] That was edgy.

[1225] That was no, no, you're not shit.

[1226] But can you imagine my point of view how that feels?

[1227] Yeah.

[1228] Right.

[1229] So it's kind of neutral.

[1230] I was being vulnerable.

[1231] Can you imagine that?

[1232] I feel bad.

[1233] That was at 1119.

[1234] And then he responded at 1125.

[1235] And I was at that point, I had shut my phone out.

[1236] Yeah.

[1237] Yeah.

[1238] You're right.

[1239] You're right.

[1240] And then at 8 .52 in the morning, I wrote, first of all, you're working the shit out of the program.

[1241] Thank you for the apology.

[1242] I would love to have you on my podcast.

[1243] and I'm sure she would love to be on yours.

[1244] I think we can all be happy heart.

[1245] Yeah.

[1246] I think I might have been confused about no response, period.

[1247] I thought he was saying I did not respond at all to his first text until the next day, which that's where my confusion is.

[1248] Got it.

[1249] He couldn't find the name for the women's basketball team or he couldn't remember the name.

[1250] The LA Galaxy?

[1251] No, the California Golden Bears.

[1252] This is, I feel like these names are so much.

[1253] insulting.

[1254] I don't know if I said any of this one when Marin and I were talking about, I just feel like they're a little bit patronizing these names for the WMBA.

[1255] Yeah, because it was like the sparkles and the...

[1256] Golden, yeah, why don't it have to be golden bears?

[1257] Golden bears is the fucking mascot for a sugar crisp, right?

[1258] Or something?

[1259] Super sugar crisp.

[1260] Why can't it just be bears?

[1261] Yeah, you're right.

[1262] The golden bears.

[1263] You're right.

[1264] I don't love it.

[1265] He talks about smoking salvia, and it is, he's Right, it is salvia.

[1266] It's a plant species that has transient psychoactive properties.

[1267] Do you recommend this, draw?

[1268] I can't recommend it as I've never done it, any of them.

[1269] I've never done that either.

[1270] People should know this about you and I is we have a longstanding debate.

[1271] I desperately want you to try ecstasy before you die and mushrooms.

[1272] Yeah.

[1273] I don't think you should leave planet Earth before.

[1274] And again, this is vice.

[1275] only to Monica.

[1276] I know her.

[1277] She's a responsible person.

[1278] She has no addictive qualities.

[1279] I'm not prescribing this to everyone.

[1280] But I will say Monica Padman, if you leave this fucking planet without dancing on MDMA and holding someone's hand and kissing, it's a fucking tragedy.

[1281] For you.

[1282] Everyone else can make their own decision.

[1283] But for me, I don't think it would be a tragedy.

[1284] I know that's where you're wrong.

[1285] No. I have no. I apologize Mr. and Mrs. Padman, but I am holding firm on this.

[1286] There's also data that doing mushrooms increases your long -term creativity.

[1287] There's pretty good support of that now.

[1288] And I think you need to take a walk through the woods with some friends and mushrooms.

[1289] I know a lot of people who've done mushrooms who I don't find to be super creative or interesting.

[1290] I did not say it could make all people creative, but it can improve your own personal potential for creativity.

[1291] Yeah.

[1292] So whatever yours already is, we just add 10 % to it or 5 % or whatever.

[1293] Sure.

[1294] What would be great, though, is if I eventually wear you down and you do it and then you can report on it here on the podcast.

[1295] I could.

[1296] Okay.

[1297] Mark said he knew Chris Hardwick when he was a host on MTV.

[1298] And I didn't know he was a host on MTV.

[1299] And he was on singled out.

[1300] Yep.

[1301] Singled out.

[1302] A dating show.

[1303] Was she also the other host?

[1304] Yes.

[1305] She was the other.

[1306] Who's Melissa McCarthy's cousin.

[1307] Yep.

[1308] And it was about 50 men and 50 women and they were competing for a day.

[1309] with one main contestant of the opposite sex.

[1310] Hmm.

[1311] And, yeah, and I had no idea.

[1312] So he started hosting kind of early on.

[1313] Yeah.

[1314] I didn't know.

[1315] Well, he's cute.

[1316] If you're comedic and cute, it's kind of a layup to be a host on MTV.

[1317] Yeah, exactly.

[1318] You think he's very cute.

[1319] Can we add that?

[1320] Chris Hardwick, yeah, you thought.

[1321] We had him on the podcast.

[1322] Yes, and when he left, Monica was short of breath.

[1323] I was pretty enamored by him, yeah.

[1324] Yeah, that was great.

[1325] I liked witnessing that.

[1326] Well, I don't, this is turning into me getting embarrassed and I might cry.

[1327] That's the goal.

[1328] Because I do that.

[1329] But he, he's so smart.

[1330] Chris Hardwick.

[1331] Yeah, we're very off Mark Maren topic now.

[1332] Oh, sorry.

[1333] Yes, he's incredibly smart.

[1334] He could probably, he deserves a little love on this podcast.

[1335] Yeah, because Mark wasn't as kind as he could have been.

[1336] Yeah.

[1337] I think that's Mark's persona.

[1338] And it's his opinion and his experience with him.

[1339] Yeah.

[1340] Just because ours is different or yours is different.

[1341] Anyway.

[1342] I love Chris Hardwick.

[1343] He's awesome.

[1344] I liked him very much.

[1345] You talk about the Bobby Fisher documentary on HBO.

[1346] I hope to God I'm right about this because I tell that same story all the time.

[1347] And if I'm wrong, this is going to be a big bummer for me. I don't think you're wrong.

[1348] It's confusing because it's no. where to be found on HBO now.

[1349] Okay.

[1350] And HBO stockpiles their stuff.

[1351] So, like, if you go on HBO go, you can find all of their things.

[1352] Well, the ones that they produced.

[1353] So there's a few documentaries I've seen on there that have recommended to people that vanish from there.

[1354] Like hot coffee was one I loved that I saw on HBO.

[1355] And it's not on there anymore.

[1356] And it's about tort reform.

[1357] It's phenomenal.

[1358] Because you just, you just witness this on HBO.

[1359] Yeah, it aired on HBO.

[1360] But I don't know that it was.

[1361] their original documentary that they owned it out right.

[1362] I don't think it was because it's not there anymore and I couldn't find very much information on the document.

[1363] Anyway, it's called Bobby Fisher against the world.

[1364] That sounds right.

[1365] Mm -hmm.

[1366] Yeah.

[1367] It's very long.

[1368] He's gone berserk.

[1369] He's dead.

[1370] That's part of this.

[1371] Oh, he's dead?

[1372] Yeah.

[1373] That's part of this fact check.

[1374] He was living in Iceland though, right?

[1375] He was living, yeah, maybe in Iceland.

[1376] Definitely in some far away isolated area.

[1377] In the Arctic Circle.

[1378] He died in 2008.

[1379] He died 10 years ago.

[1380] Oh, jeez.

[1381] I'm not up to date on him.

[1382] He's no longer present.

[1383] He's not with us.

[1384] He passed, as they say.

[1385] How did he die?

[1386] Bobby Fisher died of kidney failure.

[1387] Okay.

[1388] Unrelated.

[1389] To his paranoia.

[1390] Unless maybe he was so paranoid, he stopped drinking water.

[1391] Uh -huh.

[1392] Or he's, yeah, exactly.

[1393] He thought the only thing's safe you could eat was lead.

[1394] Yep.

[1395] Something crazy.

[1396] I don't even know what gives you renal failure.

[1397] Yeah, he lived in Iceland, and he did have clinical paranoia, and he was an anti -Semite at the end of his.

[1398] his life.

[1399] And then you said all grandmasters have paranoia and they don't all.

[1400] A couple.

[1401] Did I say all?

[1402] Yeah.

[1403] Okay.

[1404] I thought I said it's common, but you're probably right.

[1405] I hope you said all.

[1406] No, I bet you're right.

[1407] I think you said all.

[1408] It makes a better story when I say all.

[1409] Yeah, it has more of an emphasis, which is why you said it.

[1410] But it isn't true.

[1411] Some of them do.

[1412] A lot of them have had weird stuff, but they can't really, they can't correlate it to to chess.

[1413] The big two, Bobby Fisher and Paul Morphy.

[1414] Oh, okay.

[1415] Two big ones that were paranoid and, you know, had some psychotic breaks.

[1416] But how many grandmasters are there to begin with?

[1417] So it's got to be a small pool.

[1418] So even if 20 % of them, how many?

[1419] Jesus, grimy.

[1420] Okay.

[1421] You mentioned at the end that Marin should have put a number 10 next to the text from the 12 -step program.

[1422] And so do you want to say what the number 10?

[1423] Is people don't know.

[1424] No, to go ahead, read it.

[1425] I want the right verbiage.

[1426] I'll miss a word.

[1427] Number 10 out of 12 in the 12 steps is continue to take personal inventory and when we are wrong.

[1428] Promptly admitted it.

[1429] Yeah.

[1430] It's not super close for someone who's been reading those things for 13 years.

[1431] I should be really off book on all that.

[1432] I just have condensed it to when we were wrong.

[1433] We promptly admitted it.

[1434] I think is in my head, what did it's become?

[1435] Again, that's why I'm always very clear to say my understanding of this, because everyone's got the wrong.

[1436] And that is the beauty.

[1437] I just want to say one more.

[1438] Another plug for AA is it's one of the few social structures, structures that has no hierarchy.

[1439] There's no one in charge.

[1440] No one's allowed to say you're interpreting it correctly or incorrectly.

[1441] There's no brass.

[1442] Yeah.

[1443] That's cool.

[1444] I wish I could go.

[1445] I really do.

[1446] There are open meetings.

[1447] But do you have to have an issue?

[1448] There are, if you look in the AA meeting guide, it'll say whether it's an open or closed meeting.

[1449] If it's closed, it means only alcoholics can attend.

[1450] If it's open, non -alcoholics can attend.

[1451] Oh, interesting.

[1452] Yeah, so there are open meetings.

[1453] Oh, I didn't know.

[1454] So you guys were talking about, and you've mentioned this a few times throughout our tenure, that sort of life, if you're sort of doing it right, requires some flexibility of identity.

[1455] You have to be sort of flexible And that just was reminding me Because I think the best piece of advice I've ever gotten in my 12 years of life Is love the thing that loves you back Which is that basically When something's like calling Love the thing that loves you back Yeah Oh that's I like that a bunch Yeah That's similar to the song Love the one you're with Yeah That's all That was it Yeah All right Good night Follow Armchair Expert on the Wondry app, Amazon Music, or wherever you get your podcasts.

[1456] You can listen to every episode of Armchair Expert early and ad free right now by joining Wondry Plus in the Wondry app or on Apple Podcasts.

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