297 - Lick the Difference!

[0] This is exactly right.

[1] And welcome to my favorite murder.

[2] That's Georgia Hard Start.

[3] Thank you.

[4] That's Karen Kilgariff.

[5] You're welcome.

[6] This is a podcast.

[7] And here you are.

[8] We are going to tell you true crime stories.

[9] Yep.

[10] That's our interest.

[11] That's ours.

[12] We're also going to tell you about our other interests, which is our own lives.

[13] And ourselves.

[14] And ourselves.

[15] And you will be a part of it also.

[16] Peripherally.

[17] Quietly.

[18] I mean, feel free.

[19] to talk out loud we can't hear you you absolutely should yeah especially if you're on a buser train yep or at the gym are people going to the gym these days i perhaps those um roofless gyms oh that they like to do in the midwest oh you know they think some people go in parks you just have to bring a hot dish to the gym yeah what if you had to be on a treadmill eating a hot dish at the same time just some nice old grout and potatoes while you do 45 tight minutes at a 4 .3 God damn.

[20] Get that heart rate up.

[21] I can't get my heart rate up.

[22] I need to get my heart rate up.

[23] What are other ways to get our heart rates up besides getting on a treadmill?

[24] Sex.

[25] Take that out.

[26] I don't want to talk about sex.

[27] No, girl, now you have to watch our numbers shoot through the sky.

[28] Talk about it.

[29] Right on my brain.

[30] Go there.

[31] Automatically.

[32] That damn it.

[33] do it let's talk about you and me let's talk about you and me that's right it's my favorite sexual position ew gross that's disgusting no one wants to hear it look listen there's a whole podcast app filled with those you can go elsewhere definitely have fun don't go I mean stick around for a minute please we have great sexy stuff to talk about it's just just not intercourse related it's not and it's also not that sexy so those are your interests we got them if you like the push and pull of non -sexy uh bummer shit hello and welcome maybe that's sexy on its own and it's not what are we even talking about i don't know we're just trying we're trying to improv and go with the theme my dog won't stop licking the couch it's true it's his nervous kind of you know he gets nervous too yeah He listens to these intros and goes, I don't know what you're doing, but will we be able to pay the rent next month?

[34] This can't last.

[35] This can't last.

[36] Mom is going to lose the house.

[37] I don't know.

[38] I have to go back to eating out of the garbage.

[39] I just don't want to live outside anymore.

[40] No, so I don't know how to handle this.

[41] So I just lick.

[42] That's all I can control.

[43] I just lick surfaces.

[44] Look, we've all been there, Frank.

[45] It's not like we don't understand.

[46] Frank is accepting the things he cannot change.

[47] He has the courage to change the things he can't.

[48] which is the dampness of your couch.

[49] And the wisdom to lick the difference.

[50] There he is.

[51] That's our boy.

[52] Good boy, Frank.

[53] You're fine.

[54] George is slowly and politely picking up everything and getting it away from him.

[55] I am.

[56] He just keeps coming closer and closer to me. Yeah.

[57] It's kind of like his job.

[58] I don't know.

[59] Good for him.

[60] I don't know what to tell him.

[61] Somehow this is our job, kind of.

[62] I mean, can you believe?

[63] Can you believe that on this podcast, one of the things I wrote down, It just says air fryer.

[64] Because that's kind of all I want to talk about these days.

[65] Did you get one?

[66] I got an air fryer.

[67] Okay.

[68] Tell me all about it.

[69] Do you have one?

[70] No. Life changing.

[71] Why?

[72] Well, it's just really cool.

[73] It's not really life changing.

[74] But it's great.

[75] It's just so, it's fun.

[76] You got to get one.

[77] What do you air fry?

[78] I air fry.

[79] Anything frozen, you buy it, like Trader Joe's or whatever, you air fry it and it's 10 times better.

[80] Or like, if you want to make like Brussels sprouts, it makes them 10 times, why?

[81] I sound like an infomercial.

[82] I like it, though.

[83] It's the best.

[84] Yes, and then you can, like, like, meatloaf in it and, like, fried chicken in it and, like, all kinds of things in it.

[85] Um, I feel, so this was basically the trend thing after Instapots, right?

[86] Like, this was, because it's healthy.

[87] I'm laid into the game.

[88] Okay.

[89] All right.

[90] Yes.

[91] But now I found it and I love it.

[92] And it's my new hobby.

[93] I'm having a recovered memory that our front, Dave Holmes and not to be side pluggy.

[94] Right.

[95] But the host of Waiting for Impact was just premiered on our, uh, our new.

[96] original limited series.

[97] He once told me all about it and was giving me recipes and so excited about his air fryer.

[98] That's my late night scroll now is, what can I cook in the air fryer?

[99] And I'm waiting for like the next, like you can cook hard boiled eggs without being boiled.

[100] I guess you have to take that word out of there.

[101] But in the air fryer in like eight minutes with no fuss.

[102] Are they crispy?

[103] No. They're just like perfectly cooked.

[104] Okay.

[105] It's not frying it for you.

[106] It's almost like a toaster oven.

[107] Oh, okay.

[108] You know what I mean?

[109] on oil or anything like that.

[110] Okay, because I was like, I love fried things.

[111] So this sounds great.

[112] No, like today I ate like frozen tequitos and frozen Spanacopoda in the air fry.

[113] And they're like crispy and brown and like, you know, like if you cook them in the microwave, they're chewy.

[114] Yes.

[115] You're never going to cook in the oven because if you want a snack, you're not going to cook frozen food in the oven.

[116] That's going to take fucking forever.

[117] Yeah, it's 25 minutes min. Yeah.

[118] So this is my new hobby.

[119] Um, God, that's, well, it sounds really good.

[120] My thing is, because I don't cook, because it always, it's, it's been 50 years, it always sneaks up on me. Like, dinner is a surprise every night.

[121] Every night around 6 .30, I'm like, what's this weird feeling?

[122] Am I going to start crying?

[123] Oh, it's dinner time.

[124] I'm the same way with breakfast where it's like, why am I going to faint at noon every day?

[125] Yeah.

[126] Because you started with coffee and then you forgot to.

[127] And I kept going with coffee.

[128] Yeah.

[129] It's very strange.

[130] So I want to be, I want to fold some new, like, gadget in that somehow is going to, quote, unquote, make it easier or better.

[131] Here you go.

[132] Do you think that's it, though?

[133] Because I just think I'm not going to use it.

[134] You probably won't.

[135] But it's cute, so you can just have it on the counter anyway.

[136] It's not like it's a burden.

[137] Wouldn't this be compelling if this was on QVC of, like, you probably won't use this, but imagine when your friend see it on your counter.

[138] Mine is seafone color.

[139] Shockingly.

[140] So I don't care if I use it or not.

[141] It's a cute C foam appliance.

[142] Seafoam is my color for everything.

[143] Is that why you bought it?

[144] No. I bought, I went to buy one and then I was like, holy crap, they have C foam.

[145] So of course I'm going to get it.

[146] Your whole life is C foam.

[147] Color of my life C foam and call me happy or something.

[148] What is your, what would you say your number one favorite thing is fried hard boiled eggs?

[149] I haven't done that yet.

[150] I think, oh, breaded fried ravioli.

[151] Oh, shit.

[152] And you dip that motherfucker in some fucking pasta.

[153] sauce.

[154] And this is healthy.

[155] I mean, it's as healthy as toasted fried ravioli is.

[156] No, it's not how it doesn't make it healthier.

[157] It doesn't make anything healthier.

[158] That's not the point.

[159] It's just a different way of cooking.

[160] Right.

[161] So you could make frozen fries in the air fire.

[162] It's not going to make those fries healthier.

[163] Okay.

[164] Then if you put them in the oven.

[165] Got it.

[166] I think.

[167] It's just easier, quicker, like smaller, faster.

[168] Yes.

[169] Got it.

[170] Crispier.

[171] Crispier for sure.

[172] Oh, that's good.

[173] I'm going to get you one.

[174] Okay.

[175] Expect one.

[176] Someone's got a Christmas coming up.

[177] Ow.

[178] She's hit my face on the microphone.

[179] And that's good podcasting.

[180] And that is fun podcasting.

[181] Those sex podcasts won't be hitting their...

[182] You think they talk about air friars on sex podcasts?

[183] No. You think they're supposed to talk about them on murder podcasts?

[184] Probably not.

[185] I don't think so.

[186] Actually, compared to other.

[187] Here's what I would like to say.

[188] We talked extensively about being sent a box of books.

[189] from a bookstore where they were clearing out their true crime section and a listener was like I thought you should have these and who would appreciate them more we both did appreciate them but we didn't save the box or the letter of course because we've only been doing this for five years how would we know to do anything like that well lucky for you and me I don't like I basically put the garbage around the corner And so anytime I get stuff from Amazon, I'm like, I'm just going to bring this down, put it by the garbage cans, and I'll break it down later.

[190] Yes.

[191] What's what we do?

[192] Okay, good.

[193] I do it all the time.

[194] And then one day I go down with a box cutter and just go to town.

[195] Just fucking have that moment of take your aggression.

[196] Yes.

[197] Well, I was doing that and I found the box.

[198] Yes.

[199] I found it.

[200] And I'm so this is a guess, but I think I'm 95 % right that we got sent those books.

[201] from Jessica Webb from North Carolina.

[202] There she is.

[203] It was just sitting there taped to the front of a box and it was to Karen and Georgia.

[204] And then it said from Jessica Webb and I thought that is the loving bookstore employee who sent us those wonderful true crime books.

[205] Right now I'm reading a Ted Bundy book that I've never read before that is so detailed and so good.

[206] Wow.

[207] I'll talk about it when I'm done.

[208] I'm like halfway through.

[209] That's so surprising because you like that's one of those cases where you think you know every single fucking thing about.

[210] it yeah and then you read another account and you're like oh i only know anne rules account yes so anne rules in there these are the guys that interviewed him once he was in jail oh so at first i was reading it thinking i'm going to stop reading this because it's going to be too ted bundy centered and i don't give a shit what he thinks about his murders or like who cares but it's not like that is it like a study of a sociopath kind of a thing or psychopath uh i guess well it's just this story kind of really detailed so far I'm only half I just began but it's it really is just like almost like month by month how it all went down and just the way like the different things that went on like you know and I want to say it's Lake Sammamish yes yes yes is how it's pronounced where he where he kidnapped the two young women yes two women in one day which is insane but it was so crowded there there was an undercover narc there that day But that person was looking for people selling drugs.

[211] So they actually did have like an official eyewitness on the ground.

[212] How insane is it that he kidnapped one woman, drove away with her, came back.

[213] So the theory is that something happened and it didn't go the way he wanted it to go.

[214] So he wasn't satisfied.

[215] Came back and same day.

[216] I mean, it's just he was berserking.

[217] Yeah.

[218] He was in a full monster mode.

[219] and like just a predator.

[220] And he had no question that he would get away with it in his mind.

[221] No, because he had been getting away with it.

[222] And also he was dressed like he was like a tennis coach.

[223] That's the creepiest thing is like, can you help me with my boat?

[224] My arm is broken.

[225] My arm is broken.

[226] Can you help me with my boat?

[227] And I'm kind of like might be a rich guy.

[228] Yeah.

[229] And I'm really charming.

[230] Yeah.

[231] All the eyewitness women were just like, yeah, you'd never.

[232] He was really nice.

[233] He was very good looking.

[234] He just thought he was some nice guy.

[235] Well, when you're done, when you need a break from that, I have a movie to suggest.

[236] Like when you're like, holy shit, I need to put this down for a minute.

[237] Oh, to counter?

[238] Yes.

[239] Let's hear it.

[240] Okay.

[241] So my nephew, Micah, came.

[242] He's 11.

[243] Came over the other day.

[244] We ate Carl's Jr. Watch Tommy Boy, of course, because you have to.

[245] Of course.

[246] And then we watched this movie that he's like, put this on.

[247] I love it.

[248] It's called Hunt for the Wilder People.

[249] Do you know it?

[250] It's the New Zealand guys.

[251] Take it what Titi.

[252] yes from 2016 and of course and it's Sam starting Sam Neal and then the kid who's in it it's like this 13 year old kid is in foster care he goes to live with Sam Neal and his wife and the kid is named Julian Denison and they kind of like they go live and get stranded into New Zealand wilderness and there's like a manhunt to find them because they think the kid got kidnapped but really he's like they're having the most fun and bonding and there's like it's the fucking sweetest cuteest like feel -goodiest movie.

[253] Oh my God, I love Micah's movie corner.

[254] That's a great idea.

[255] Like, yes, I want to know what an 11 -year -old likes.

[256] Well, the problem here is that he likes horror movies normally.

[257] And so we put on Friday the 13th for three minutes where I said, Micah, I can't fucking watch this with you.

[258] So then he was like, all right, I'll downshift into Ant Mode.

[259] Tommy Boy.

[260] Yes.

[261] He definitely downshifted for me. He watched Squid Games.

[262] He's watched fucking everything, like all those.

[263] He's just in it all.

[264] Yeah.

[265] My brother is like a grown child.

[266] Yeah.

[267] You know.

[268] Well, but that's good, though.

[269] That means he has taste and there's a true range.

[270] Yeah.

[271] He's into video games and stuff like that.

[272] Yeah.

[273] So I guess horror movies are this new jam.

[274] Of course.

[275] I think that, but look, what age were you when you started reading Stephen King?

[276] Totally.

[277] You would have been doing the same things that modern day kids are doing.

[278] Well, we did watch all of those.

[279] It was just somehow okay back then.

[280] But now we're a little wiser as to things that terrify children.

[281] And so we're not supposed to be watching fucking nightmare and Elm Street and all that shit.

[282] But at the same time, you know, he's like, this is an L .A. kid.

[283] So he's like, they shot that down the street.

[284] You know.

[285] Right.

[286] Right.

[287] Or he's like, this is all.

[288] He says like they're so campy because they're from the eight.

[289] He likes 80s ones because they look so stupid.

[290] So he's not watching SA or anything like that.

[291] Yes.

[292] He's aware of how fake it is.

[293] That's good.

[294] Yeah.

[295] Yeah.

[296] They're a little distance.

[297] but then he likes a nice jump scare everyone's sure but he's not allowed to listen to this podcast he can listen in the beginning his mom lets and listen at the beginning he's like this is the boring part I don't want to hear about air friars yeah he's seriously like why in the world yeah why in the world oh that's awesome I love that I'm trying to think of what I've been watching a finish procedural I believe it was called Arctic Circle and it literally takes place in Lapland which my friend the hilarious comedian Lynn Shawcroft who herself is from Canada that used to be a reference she would make sometimes but it was the way she said it with her Canadian expert she go she was if somebody had like a really big weird sweater on because in L .A. there's almost no reason to ever wear a sweater unless it's like deep January she'd be like oh I like your sweater are you from Lapland?

[298] That sounds so far away and like it's truly it's like where reindeer are from they it's where they say where Santa Claus is from oh I didn't know that.

[299] Yeah, Lapland.

[300] Oh, your friend Santa.

[301] Way up there.

[302] Yeah, Arctic Circle, I believe it's called.

[303] There's something about those foreign procedures.

[304] They truly just, they soothe my soul.

[305] They do.

[306] It's like a big cup of cocoa for your soul.

[307] I think I also tell myself, like, I'm learning about Finland if I watch it.

[308] Definitely.

[309] Let's say that.

[310] Or Lapland.

[311] A Lapland.

[312] Lapland.

[313] You know, Lapland, where sweaters are come from.

[314] Here's another great Lynn -Sharcroft quote.

[315] We got out of a car one time.

[316] We were headed to our friend's party, and the party was taking place on the front patio.

[317] Maybe I told you this already.

[318] And right as we were getting out, like we parked on the cul -de -sac.

[319] And so we're walking up to the party, but we can hear it all.

[320] And so you can hear everybody talking, and then someone laughs.

[321] This super obnoxious laugh.

[322] And she turns me and goes, I didn't know there'd be a toucan at this party.

[323] And that is exactly what it sounded like.

[324] It's like, It was so fucking hilarious.

[325] That reminds me of Bojack Horseman, because in that scene, it would have been a two -cam.

[326] Yes, exactly.

[327] It really was like some obnoxious hipster too -cam.

[328] Speaking of TV shows, you're watching, I was a bunch of people commented that when you were talking about working moms, and I was like, yeah, I totally watched it.

[329] It wasn't.

[330] It was from Australia called The Letdown that I'd watched, and it's really good.

[331] You did a little combo?

[332] Yeah, it's like, I just think moms would.

[333] new babies and how hard it is.

[334] They're both about like how hard it is to be a new mom with a baby.

[335] Yes.

[336] And so the one I watched was just from a different place.

[337] The letdown.

[338] It's charming as fuck.

[339] I loved it.

[340] Oh, okay.

[341] I don't watch it.

[342] That's it.

[343] Okay.

[344] That's like an accidental recommendation.

[345] Yeah.

[346] Love it.

[347] Okay.

[348] I want to do a quick exactly right media network highlight?

[349] Yes.

[350] Stocks and bonds.

[351] How we're doing on the, uh, let's tell everyone what stocks and bonds to buy.

[352] This week on Parent Footprint with my cousin, Dr. Dan, well, I have to mention that every time because I just love it.

[353] Credit.

[354] That's right.

[355] So he has guest Jane Allen on and she's the author of the novel Black Girls Must Die Exhausted.

[356] She's this incredible entrepreneur.

[357] She's a Harvard trained attorney.

[358] She's an engineer.

[359] Also dabbles in stand -up comedy.

[360] She's just this incredible woman.

[361] She does it all.

[362] So he interviews her.

[363] I definitely check out Parent Footprint.

[364] Just all the back episodes are incredible.

[365] He's a very talented man and a real doctor.

[366] Yeah.

[367] An actual doctor.

[368] That's right.

[369] This week on Do You Need a Ride with Chris Fairbanks and Karen Kilgariff?

[370] We have the great comedian and also entrepreneur, Dave Ross.

[371] He had a bit of cold or a fever, which was kind of hilarious and it ended in one of the funniest slash dumbest things we've ever done on that podcast, which is he started making us fake logos for the podcast on a, like, a college mascot generator.

[372] Yeah.

[373] And it was really hilarious.

[374] It went on for 11 minutes.

[375] We had to cut it down to two minutes because there's - fever dream.

[376] It was all visual.

[377] It was us laughing at dumb shit and then trying to describe it while we laughed.

[378] It was so stupid.

[379] I bet it was hilarious.

[380] Because the three of you guys were such fucking great comedians.

[381] Dave Ross is so funny.

[382] He's the funniest.

[383] It was very fun.

[384] I mean, like, it just, you know, it was a real good time.

[385] You guys have fun on that podcast.

[386] You know what I like to do sometimes?

[387] What?

[388] Riff and have fun.

[389] You've turned me into a toucan.

[390] Was it a two can?

[391] Yeah.

[392] There you go.

[393] And then on the podcast True Beauty Brooklyn, they have guest Sally Olivia Kim, who's the founder of Crushed Tonics.

[394] So make sure there's so many good episodes of True Beauty Brooklyn.

[395] Yeah.

[396] It's a great podcast.

[397] That podcast is doing a bunch of stuff because everybody thinks it's a beauty podcast.

[398] Right.

[399] But it is so much.

[400] more than that.

[401] I definitely just go check it out and see they're having very cool, important conversations over there.

[402] Definitely.

[403] Definitely.

[404] And then also be sure to follow exactly right on Instagram, Twitter, and Facebook for updates on all of our shows.

[405] You know, sometimes you just need an update.

[406] You want to know what's going on.

[407] Sure.

[408] Be kept in the loop.

[409] Maybe we'll talk about air friars on Instagram one day.

[410] So you don't want to miss that.

[411] So make sure you follow exactly right.

[412] You have to be updated on all of the different trinkets.

[413] That's right.

[414] And different kind of, um, it's, it's kind of a bed, bath and beyond podcast deep down.

[415] It's become that stay for the other podcasts come for the, uh, bed bath recap.

[416] That's us.

[417] Man, I love a bed bath and beyond, don't you?

[418] Here's the thing.

[419] I really do.

[420] And I don't need almost anything in that store.

[421] But especially if I get to the like the, the bath toiletry area where they have like, hot combs and stuff where I'm like, I have to get that.

[422] What if it's the best, what if it changes in my life?

[423] What if this is the thing that makes my hair work?

[424] Like, my thing is the fucking N -caps of as seen on TV where I'm like, I've never seen on that on TV, but I need it now.

[425] Yes.

[426] That's where you get like, it's a light up mirror.

[427] Right.

[428] That has then different shades of light based on different cities around the world or whatever and tells you what time they're at right now.

[429] So just so you have it in your head.

[430] Here's what your pores look like at 3 .30.

[431] In Paris.

[432] Enjoy.

[433] Okay.

[434] What else do you have?

[435] I think it's time to go.

[436] Let's do it.

[437] You want to end the podcast now?

[438] We're on a high now?

[439] Bye.

[440] Is it you?

[441] It is.

[442] I'm first.

[443] And it's a bit long.

[444] That's why I'm saying maybe we should get right to it.

[445] You know, I have nothing else to talk about unless you want me to make some shit up.

[446] Okay.

[447] Yeah.

[448] I mean, I've been like going to dinner.

[449] here and there at places that have patios, been to the movie theater, which is still weird when you have to wear your mask the whole time.

[450] So you go to the loungy one where you can order like a cheese plate and shit?

[451] No. Gotta.

[452] I like to go to the grove.

[453] Oh.

[454] Because I like to pretend the grove is actually a little town.

[455] Oh, it's so cute, though.

[456] That's just overly populated.

[457] It's very dense.

[458] Yeah.

[459] And like a little annoying.

[460] Like everyone in the town needs to take pictures in front of a fountain.

[461] Every, no one in the town walks over too, my, I don't know how cool, slow walking is.

[462] It's really slow.

[463] Everyone walks slow.

[464] It's slow.

[465] And there's a trolley.

[466] And watch out for that trolley.

[467] The trolley could kill you.

[468] The trolley could absolutely kill you.

[469] Or at least give you a nice lawsuit settlement.

[470] Got it.

[471] Now I'm starting to think about, remember when you did the, you covered all the weird creepy things that have happened in Disneyland?

[472] Yes.

[473] Like what, what weird creepy things have happened in the grove and they won't talk about it?

[474] Cover up.

[475] It goes off.

[476] Do the.

[477] They have their own, like, uh, jail?

[478] Yeah.

[479] For shoplifters, right?

[480] For shoplifters?

[481] Shoplifters are people that get drunk at that one restaurant.

[482] Totally.

[483] And they fall out into the street and then start trying to punch other dads or whatever.

[484] Early afternoon chardonnays and then they're fucking fighting.

[485] I bet intense shit.

[486] I want to list of like the most intense shit that's happened at the Grove.

[487] Or, or if you're listening now and you've seen it's intense shit that's happened at your fancy outdoor mall and your hometown.

[488] We all have that.

[489] them or nearby.

[490] Let's hear about it.

[491] Definitely tell us those stories.

[492] My favorite murder at Gmail.

[493] Like, yeah, if you, like, if someone ran out of a shop and then somebody from a different shop wrestled them to the ground.

[494] Yeah, which you're not supposed to do.

[495] But, really?

[496] You're not supposed to, they're like, became a law where you're, if you work at a store, you're not supposed to chase or, like, stop a shoplifter unless it's like for them to be like, your shoplift didn't come back in, but they can't touch them.

[497] Really?

[498] To let it go.

[499] Yeah, because there were lawsuits, I think, of like someone got tackled or whatever for a $35 shirt yeah and then they sued the shit out of the fucking company oh man that doesn't seem right or like the security guard got shot because or like the employee got shot because they were trying to stop a robbery right and they were like yeah by any means necessary right that makes sense you're not allowed to do that yeah don't don't put your don't put it all on the line for j crew no i mean or even a bank they're insured like just hand the money over they're all insured don't be a hero Ready?

[500] Yeah.

[501] Are we done?

[502] What were you saying about not knowing what to talk about?

[503] Well, we just did it.

[504] We did.

[505] We always do.

[506] Karen, you know I'm all about vintage shopping.

[507] Absolutely.

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[526] Goodbye.

[527] This week, I am covering one of the most kind of elaborate and confusing.

[528] And ultimately, I pre -warn you, very unsatisfying of unsolved murders.

[529] These are the murders of Rhonda Renee Johnson and Sharon Shaw.

[530] Okay, so the sources for the story, Unsolved Mysteries, Season 5, Episode 24.

[531] That's on Amazon Prime, if you want to watch it.

[532] There's a book by an author named Jamie Foster called Murder in Texas, The True Story of Rhonda Johnson and Sharon Shaw.

[533] There's an article from the Houston Chronicle by a writer named Lease Olson, or Lisa L -I -S -E, titled Some Suspect Serial Killer in 1971 Galveston Deaths.

[534] There's self -versus state court of appeals case brief.

[535] Jay went into the case briefs on this.

[536] And then the Wikipedia page, Murders of Rhonda Johnson and Sharon Shaw.

[537] Lisa Olson also wrote an article for the Houston Chronicle Confessions of a Cold Blooded Killer and there's an unsolved Mysteries wiki with no author listed, but it talks about the case of Rhonda Johnson and Sharon Shaw.

[538] Okay.

[539] So this story begins in Webster, Texas on August 4th, 1971.

[540] So two friends, 15 -year -old Sharon Shaw and 14 -year -old Rhonda, although she liked to be called Renee Johnson.

[541] They decide to spend the day water skiing at Wicks Water Ski School on Offitz Bayou in Galveston, which is 20 miles south of Webster.

[542] So they hitch a ride with one of Sharon's neighbors, and they go down to Galveston, but when they get there, the wind is too rough to actually go water skiing, so they end up spending the day at the beach instead.

[543] And when they get to the beach, they run into their friend, Glenda Willis.

[544] And she offers to give them a ride back home, but Sharon and Renee aren't ready to leave.

[545] if they want to stay at the beach a little longer.

[546] So they say no, and Glenda leaves without them.

[547] I hate those moments in these stories.

[548] There were such babies, too.

[549] Babies.

[550] 14 and 15.

[551] Yeah.

[552] It's very sad.

[553] So later that evening, between 8 and 9 o 'clock, Sharon and Renee, are spotted by eyewitnesses walking to the Jericho Surf and Ski Shop that's on Seawall Boulevard, and that is the last time that they're seen alive.

[554] So that evening, when neither girls return home, their parents promptly call them.

[555] call the police and report them missing.

[556] Both Sharon and Renee are known as being adventurous, they're tomboy types, and their friend Glenda remembers them as being totally fearless.

[557] Actually, Glenda and some other friends think maybe Sharon and Renee have run away to California.

[558] But since Renee is the granddaughter of a prominent local city councilman in Webster, who actually will later go on to become the mayor, the search for the girls is made very high priority.

[559] But even with that special attention, there's no sign of Renee or Sharon.

[560] They can't find any clues at all.

[561] So then about five months later on January 3rd, 1972, two boys are boating in Taylor Bayou, which is north of Clear Lake, which is just east of Webster, and they spot something strange in the water.

[562] They go over to check it out.

[563] They think it might be a volleyball, but it's actually a human skull.

[564] Yeah.

[565] So the boys contact The police, the police start searching the area, and this search ends up lasting for six weeks because it's all bayou and marshland and, you know, around this lake.

[566] They finally find the rest of this body that belongs to the skull in a marsh by the lake, and then a second body is recovered as well.

[567] They're both significantly decayed, but with the help of dental records and a recognizable cross necklace wrapped around one of the victim's jaw bones, the bodies are.

[568] finally identified as Sharon Shaw and Renee Johnson.

[569] So I'll tell you a little bit about them.

[570] There's their school pictures from the 70s.

[571] So they have very 70s like hair.

[572] But you can tell they're beachy.

[573] You can tell their surf girls.

[574] Yeah.

[575] Water skiing girls.

[576] Sharon Shaw is born August 11, 1957 in Mobile, Alabama.

[577] She's the daughter of Hoyt and Marianne Shaw.

[578] This family makes their way to Webster, Texas when Sharon's Little, and later she then meets her friend, Rhonda, Renee Johnson.

[579] So Renee Johnson, she was born in Houston on December 16, 1956, to Charles Sr. and Betty Johnson, and her grandfather is the well -known Webster City Councilman, who will later become the mayor.

[580] And the girls are known to be bright, and as their friend, Glenda said, fearless.

[581] They love to hang out by the beach and on Texas's southeast.

[582] Eastern shores, and they often hitchhiked their way around the area, which is, of course, it's early 70s, so very common around them.

[583] Plus, when you're 13 and 14 and 15 and fearless, I mean, like, I would have hitchhiked that for, we used to take the bus half an hour in a Newport Beach, was just pretty fucking shady at the time.

[584] Yeah.

[585] We would have hitchhiked home, some hot, like, surfer dude.

[586] I was like, do you want to ride home?

[587] Yeah.

[588] Sure.

[589] Yeah, of course.

[590] And also, I think it's at that time where it's like, yeah, if you.

[591] are see yourself as a surfer girl or that you know you're in this you're in this certain click yeah then it's super worth it to leave your little texas town to get to the beach to get to that area and hang out and apparently in that area where this water ski school was it was that's what everyone around there was doing it was very 70s and so in may of 1972 the webster city council hires a new police chief named Don Morris and a new assistant chief named Tommy Deal.

[592] So both Morris and Deal come over from the traffic division of the Texas Department of Public Safety and they both get right into the investigation of Sharon and Renee's case.

[593] Within the first three weeks of taking their new jobs, Morrison Deal get a tip on a suspect from a city councilman named Glenn Price.

[594] He tells them to check out the area's known sex offenders list.

[595] And he specifically pinpoints one man by name.

[596] 23 -year -old Michael Lloyd's self.

[597] So Michael Self is a gas station attendant in Webster.

[598] He's recently been arrested on two different peeping Tom incidents, but has since been released, and he's known to have a very low IQ.

[599] So around 5 in the morning on June 9, 1972, Tommy Deal, and another police officer named Herman Morgan, pay Michael Self a visit at the gas station where he's wrapping up his night shift and they pull up to the pump that Michael Self is working at and they say that they know he's been quote unquote thinking about two girls.

[600] So Michael's self has recently gotten a divorce and then begun dating a new woman.

[601] So he assumes that these officers are talking about his ex and his new girlfriend.

[602] So he confirms that yes, he has indeed been thinking about two girls, not understanding that they are referring to Sharon Shaw and Renee Johnson.

[603] What a weird way to open that line of questioning up.

[604] Yes.

[605] And I think it kind of does indicate how much any average person I think would just be like, sorry, I don't know what you're talking about.

[606] But he assumes, and maybe also because it's a small town, but he just assumes that they all understand.

[607] It's like, oh, you do know what I'm thinking of.

[608] Yeah, because you have a low IQ, so you don't, you can't reason that.

[609] Right.

[610] Okay, so officers deal in Morgan say they'd like to speak with Michael's self further.

[611] So self -willingly goes with the officers to the police station for questioning.

[612] Once he gets there, they show him pictures of Sharon and Renee and they ask if he knows them.

[613] And he says, yes, he does know them and he names them.

[614] They arrest him on the spot and they pull him into an interrogation room for questioning.

[615] So Officer Deal and the other officer asked Michael if he murdered Sharon and Renee, but Michael swears up and down that he has had nothing to do with their deaths.

[616] Deal bluffs and says that they have evidence connecting Michael's self to the murder, but Michael maintains that he did not kill the girls.

[617] During questioning, Officer Jerry Mitchell stops by to observe, he knows Michael's self from around town, and he notes that even though Michael's hands are handcuffed behind his back, he seems relaxed.

[618] He's not nervous.

[619] He's answering all of Deals questions.

[620] And then after Officer Mitchell steps out, Chief of Police, this new Chief of Police, Don Morris shows up.

[621] He asks Deal to leave so that he can continue questioning Michael on his own.

[622] So he does.

[623] And so then Don Morris starts asking self about the murders.

[624] But this time, and this is all according to Michael's self after the fact, when he again says he doesn't know anything about the murders, Morris picks him up, pushes him against the wall, and then starts shoving a nightstick into his stomach over and over and saying he wants a confession and he isn't going to leave Michael alone until he gets one.

[625] So Michael starts crying.

[626] Morris puts, him back in his seat, and then Chief Morris takes out a gun, opens the chamber, removes five of the bullets, leaves the sixth bullet in, stands each bullet up on the table in front of Michael, and then with the one bullet left in the chamber, closes the chamber, and points the gun at Michael.

[627] Oh, my God.

[628] And he threatens him with playing a game of Russian roulette.

[629] So Morris tells Mike that if he doesn't sign a confession, he'll shoot him.

[630] Yeah.

[631] And so, of course, Michael Self's terrified.

[632] He agrees and he starts writing exactly what Chief Morris tells him to write.

[633] Right.

[634] So after half a page of writing, Morris makes him start over and rewrite the confession, saying something isn't right.

[635] So at this point, Officer Mitchell returns to the interrogation room.

[636] He's been gone less than an hour, but he now notices a complete change in Michael's self.

[637] He sees that he's a nervous wreck and that Morris has had him rewrite this confession several times, which strikes him as odd.

[638] By the end of the whole ordeal, Michael Self has written a detailed confession stating that he picked Renee and Sharon up from Sharon's house, and that once in the car, he describes giving them beer, offering them weed, he says they take the beer but to climb the weed and they drink while he drives them around the Clear Lake area.

[639] And then he goes on to write that both girls were, quote, feeling good and getting loud, hanging out of his car window and hollering as he drove them to Clear Lake.

[640] And at the lake, he describes having a moment alone with Renee trying to assault her.

[641] She shuts that down.

[642] He's angered by the rejection.

[643] This is according to his first statement.

[644] So he punches Renee in the head.

[645] That's when Sharon runs over.

[646] So he hits her too.

[647] Then he says he strangles both girls and dumps them somewhere in El Lago.

[648] So Michael signs this confession and is promptly taken in.

[649] to custody there's even despite all those rewrites though there's still key inconsistencies with this confession first there are no signs of strangulation on either of the remains that had been found that was ruled out as a possible cause of death secondly Sharon's mom says that michael self definitely did not pick the girls up from her home they had hitched a ride with a neighbor so she knew who the girls rode into galveston with that day and then third the place where he said he dumped the bodies is 20 miles away from where the bodies were actually found.

[650] But at this point, Morris says he has his man and Michael's off is taken to jail.

[651] So three days after this interrogation on June 12th, 1972, against the advice of his attorney, he agrees to take a lie detector test.

[652] Oh.

[653] It's 1972.

[654] I mean, this is, you know.

[655] But that lawyer knew.

[656] He knew for him not to do it.

[657] So the test administrator asks Michael if he did indeed kill Renee.

[658] and Sharon.

[659] Michael says yes that his confession is true, but the test records this as being a lie.

[660] Huh.

[661] Then they ask Michael about more murders that took place in the same area between 1971 and 1972.

[662] He claims to have information about those murders as well, but the lie detector test reveals that this too is false.

[663] Huh.

[664] So even though this test points towards Michael's innocence, he's so afraid of Don Morris that he agrees to sign a second confession.

[665] I believe.

[666] I. in this second confession he says he was driving when he saw ronda walking down the road so he picked her up then he drove her to nassau bay yacht club ronda hopped out came back with sharon both girls got in the car so this directly conflicts with this first confession and basically the one that sharon's mother contradicted so now it's like they're updating it right also in the first confession he describes punching the girls before strangling them.

[667] But in the second he says he hit Sharon with a Coke bottle and then dumped their bodies in Taylor Bayou.

[668] So it changes the location completely of where I even dumps them.

[669] Yeah.

[670] So instead of where it was before, which was essentially kind of like a culvert, now it's near where they were found, where their remains were found.

[671] So these revised statements are more in line with the facts of the case, but there's still more inconsistencies that don't add up.

[672] Michael goes on to say in his second confession that he stripped the girl's clothing off of them and threw their clothes on the side of the highway, but both girls' bodies were found with clothing on.

[673] Still, the confession is accepted.

[674] Michael Self remains behind bars, and he's awaiting trial.

[675] Then on June 23rd, 1972, about two weeks after his arrest, two Harris County Sheriff's deputies, Deputy Sheriff Frank Beamer and Deputy Sheriff W .A. Turner, check Michael's self out of jail, saying they're going to be able to.

[676] going to go buy him a hamburger.

[677] And they do, but then afterwards, they drive him to each of the various locations that he mentioned in his confession, and they take pictures of him standing in those spots.

[678] And this time, Michael Self directs them to a sizzler saying that's where he originally picked the girls up.

[679] So the Jeep of Police in Cleveland, Texas, which is a nearby town, this guy's name is Dave Coburn.

[680] He visits Michael Self in jail.

[681] And Michael Self tells Chief Coburn he didn't murder anybody and goes on to describe the interrogation, the Russian roulette, all the threats, and how scared he is of Morris.

[682] And the thing is that Chief Coburn had actually seen Morris play that same Russian roulette game with a different prisoner the same way Michael Self is describing.

[683] So Colburn's 100 % certain that Morris coerced Michael into this false confession.

[684] and he tells Michael Self, I will attest to this in court.

[685] So Michael Self's murder trial begins on May 15, 1973.

[686] Prosecutors rely heavily on this second written confession to make their case.

[687] Because the girls' remains are too decomposed to determine the exact cause of death, there's no physical evidence besides Michael's confession and its alignments with the condition of the girls' remains.

[688] The photos the deputy sheriff's Frank Beamer and W .A. Turner took of Michael's self on this kind of location tour are also presented in court as a third oral confession.

[689] Oh, like he took them to those places when really they took him.

[690] Yeah, like it was his idea.

[691] So Beamer and Turner tell the court, Michael was recounting his every move from the night of the murders as they stopped at each location.

[692] This account of Self's third oral confession is entered into court without objection.

[693] Oops.

[694] So things look very bad for Michael's self.

[695] But police chief Coburn is prepared to testify that he witnessed Chief Don Morris poll the Russian roulette stunt on another prisoner in 1971, which would be huge for the defense.

[696] Coburn is never called to the stand.

[697] What?

[698] So on September 18th, 1974, the jury finds Michael Lloyd's self guilty of the murder of Sharon Shaw in the first degree.

[699] He's sentenced to life in prison.

[700] So after this ruling, Michael Self's lawyer immediately files an appeal.

[701] He argues, the defense attorney argues, that this supposed third confession entered at trial should be inadmissible because they illegally removed him from jail, but because Michael willingly agreed to go on that little tour and because his third confession was entered with no objection from the defense at the time of trial, the judge maintains that this third confession is admissible.

[702] And the court argues that all they need to rule Michael guilty are the properly IDed remains of the girls and the proof that the victim died by criminal means.

[703] The court says that because Michael Self's confession aligns with the conditions in which Sharon Shaw's body was found, that's enough to rule her dead by criminal means, even if they don't know the precise cause of death.

[704] So on October 9th, 1974, Michael Self's appeal is officially denied, and the ruling of his trial stands.

[705] Okay.

[706] Then on September 17th, 1976, three years after Michael Self's trial began, something happens in the quiet Texas town of Caddo Mills that on its face seems entirely unrelated.

[707] And so this information is from an article from the New York Times.

[708] But it's also from a 2019 article in the Greenville Herald banner where a local named Joe Johnson, who is, I believe in his early 80s, retells this story by his own firsthand account.

[709] He was there the day he, like, saw this happen to the Rotary Club in Greenville.

[710] So like a reporter went down and wrote a story about the story that Joe tells.

[711] And it's pretty great.

[712] Okay, here we go.

[713] So it's mid -morning.

[714] In Caddo Mills, this little Texas town, a man named Jerry Woods is walking out of the bank.

[715] And when he walks out, he sees two guys walking in.

[716] And he noticed they're both wearing surgical gloves.

[717] Uh -oh.

[718] And Jerry thinks to himself, this can't be good.

[719] I made that up.

[720] Of course.

[721] He did.

[722] Sure.

[723] So he stops and watches as they enter the bank and put on ski masks.

[724] Oh, dear.

[725] So he knows this is a robbery, obviously.

[726] So he runs across the street and to find the mayor, Bobby Chapman, and says, hey, the bank's getting held up.

[727] We were just talking about bank robbery.

[728] That's weird.

[729] Well, that is weird.

[730] Small town bank robbery.

[731] Small town bank robbery where it's all like, well, you see the bank robbery starting.

[732] So you turn and go, who do you want to get?

[733] The mayor's right there.

[734] Right.

[735] So he grabs the mayor, Bobby Chapman.

[736] And so once he tells the mayor that, they all head down to Larry Bost's barber shop.

[737] because they know Larry has a rifle.

[738] Let's go get the town rifle.

[739] Let's go get a rifle.

[740] Wow.

[741] So when the bank robbers come out of the bank, they see Larry the barber standing there, aiming at them with his 30 -ought six.

[742] And then Jerry Woods, who went and got his gun out of his truck.

[743] And he's, so basically they're facing one direction, and Larry the barber has his rifle up.

[744] And then they turn and look and Jerry Woods is aiming from the other direction.

[745] So the two robbers went back inside the bank.

[746] They grabbed the bank receptionist and they take her with them.

[747] But what they don't know is that the bank receptionist also happens to be the bank president's daughter, 19 -year -old Sherry Johnson.

[748] Oh, no. So they take her hostage.

[749] They shove her into this stolen green mercury that they drove there and they head out of town.

[750] And as they head out, Larry the barber shoots out the front right tire.

[751] Okay.

[752] So they're still going, but their car's pretty screwed up.

[753] Yeah.

[754] The robbers return fire and shoot out the barbershop window as they speed out of town.

[755] Man. Now, at this point in the article I was reading, Joe, who's telling the story also says, hey, this was a long time ago, so this might not all be completely accurate, which I absolutely love.

[756] Yeah.

[757] Because that gets reported in the article as well.

[758] Yeah, he's like, here's how I remember it.

[759] Here's how I remember.

[760] That don't mean shit.

[761] So Larry the barber and Bobby the mayor Jump into the mayor's car And they take off after these robbers Right And because it's the 70s back then Everyone has CB radios Oh yeah So there's a CB in the mayor's car And everybody's on their CBs So the mayor gets on the CB Spreads the word to be on the lookout For a green mercury With a flat front tire And they're most likely headed Toward the interstate So he basically Through the CB be the whole town gets this posse up of all.

[762] And also there's a bunch of citizens that were either in the bank or nearby who have now gone like what the hell is going on.

[763] So they basically everyone in town jumps into their trucks and cars with their rifles because it's Texas.

[764] It's fucking Texas.

[765] It's Texas.

[766] They all have their guns with them and on their person and they start all trying to find these bank robbers.

[767] I just wonder if this poor receptionist would have a better chance of survival if they weren't following them well here's what's good the answer's no because at one point they started she later would tell the guy joe they start fighting about what they're supposed to do with her now that there's witnesses and now all this and they end up throwing her out of the car along with one of the pistols that they used in this bank robbery wow and yeah so all right good so even though the pressure was on and that could have gone wrong yes it helped her in that in that regard.

[768] Great.

[769] So they basically pull the car over near an abandoned building.

[770] At one point, they tried to carjack a guy in a Mustang, and it says unsuccessfully, which to me means the guy in the Mustang is like, hold on, let me just grab my rifle.

[771] Out of the back seat.

[772] Like, they couldn't, they couldn't win in this town.

[773] No, they couldn't.

[774] And they end up running across a field with their bag of money.

[775] And all the citizens chase them down in this field, get them, and hold them gunpoint until Sheriff Wayne Green arrives and arrests them.

[776] And it's at this point that everyone learns the identity of these two bank robbers.

[777] Webster assistant police chief Tommy Deal, Dallas County Deputy Sheriff George P. Marshall and the accomplice getaway driver is Webster police chief Don Morris.

[778] Damn.

[779] The Russian roulette man. Damn!

[780] Yeah.

[781] So it turns out that Don Morris and Tommy Deal are part of a bank robbing gang who have them sticking up small town banks around Texas since 1972.

[782] Holy shit.

[783] Both men are found guilty in this bank robbery.

[784] Don Morris is sentenced to 55 years in prison.

[785] Tommy Deal gets 30 years.

[786] They're both eventually paroled.

[787] Tommy Deal ends up going back to robbing banks and he winds up in federal prison.

[788] He loved that hobby of his.

[789] He loved it.

[790] He was into it.

[791] So after these arrests, Michael Self's attorney, Jerry Burnberg, he petitions the court to get Michael a new trial, obviously.

[792] Saying obviously if the cops who interrogated self were proven to be corrupt, then maybe Michael Self has a real shot at getting his case reexamined.

[793] They have an evidentiary hearing and that goes well.

[794] Things are starting to luck up.

[795] And then nine days before oral arguments, Michael Self gets another.

[796] lucky break, a man who still remains unidentified, walks into the police station in Taylor Lake, Texas and confesses to killing Sharon and Renee.

[797] What?

[798] This man's account of what happened is vague and disjointed, but he mentions one key element that the public had no knowledge of and was never made available.

[799] Yeah.

[800] He tells police that he tied Sharon and Renee up with black cord, which was found on the remains.

[801] when they were recovered.

[802] It's then discovered that this man lives in the same apartment complex as, I believe it's as Renee.

[803] And he knows both girls.

[804] Oh, so if he would pull over, they wouldn't, they'd be like, yeah, I'll take her right.

[805] I know this guy.

[806] It's a neighbor.

[807] Totally.

[808] Yeah.

[809] There's just one problem.

[810] This man reportedly suffers from psychosis.

[811] The officers, as well as the prosecution, say that this, the man is not sane, and therefore his confessions unreliable.

[812] and there isn't enough evidence to charge him.

[813] So he's never charged.

[814] The appeal is denied and Michael Self's conviction is upheld once again.

[815] Wow.

[816] On September 22nd, 1992, Michael tries to make one last appeal for retrial on the grounds that his confession had been coerced.

[817] But the court denies it in 93.

[818] They say they don't have any evidence of coercion and that Michael willingly went to the police station made his statement and they shut the argument down again.

[819] After several failed attempts and the court denying him parole, Michael Self is later diagnosed with cancer and he dies behind bars the year 2000 at the age of 53.

[820] So there are those and some of them are family members of the murdered girls who believe that Michael's self was guilty and that justice was served.

[821] But for those who believe that Michael Self's confessions were coerced, they're left wondering if the real killer is still out there.

[822] and then another possible suspect emerges in August of 2015.

[823] This is a man at the time he is 72 years old and his name is Edward Harold Bell.

[824] Yikes.

[825] So Harold Bell was arrested in 1978 from murdering a 26 -year -old Marine named Larry Dickens who had tried to stop Bell from masturbating in front of a group of teenage girls in Pasadena, Texas.

[826] Oh, my God.

[827] It's such a hideous crazy story.

[828] So Harold Bell is sentenced to 70 years in prison for this murder.

[829] Yeah.

[830] In jail, Harold admits to the authorities that he murdered 11 girls prior to his final arrest, and he refers to these victims as the 11 who went to heaven.

[831] Oh.

[832] In 1998, he writes letters to authorities confessing to seven of these 11 murder.

[833] and in them he mentioned Sharon Shaw and Renee Johnson by their names.

[834] Wow.

[835] And yet somehow these letters are kept secret until 2015.

[836] Authorities assert that there wasn't enough evidence aside from these letters of confession to charge Bell with any of the murders back in 1998.

[837] And that's why no one talked about these letters.

[838] But once the news breaks that they exist in 2015, they take a closer look.

[839] So here's basically the rundown.

[840] Okay.

[841] Starting in 1966, Harold Bell is arrested multiple times for sex offenses, usually for masturbating in front of young girls.

[842] And he has sent to several different psychiatric hospitals over the next four years.

[843] In 1970, he seduces and marries a fellow mental patient who is only 17 years old.

[844] And upon his release, Bell and this girl, who is now his wife, move into an apartment along Offitz Bayou, which is near where that water ski school is.

[845] Bell becomes a silent partner in the local surf shop where all the water skiers and surf kits hang out.

[846] After he's arrested for shooting Larry Dickens in 1978, Harold Bell jumps bail and goes on the run in Mexico and Central America for the next 14 years.

[847] Holy shit.

[848] So he's Texas most wanted criminal throughout the 80s, and he's finally captured in Panama in 1992.

[849] So when his confessional letters about these crimes he committed in the 70s begin to arrive in 1998, authorities dismiss them as the rantings of an attention -seeking sex offender who's trying to get time knocked off his murder sentence.

[850] But by the time they're looked at again in 2015, there's so little evidence and eyewitnesses left, including some of the letters themselves that go missing, that it's decided that there's nothing to build a case on.

[851] And on April 20th, 2019, Harold Bell dies in prison without ever being charged for any of the 11 murders that he confessed to in detail.

[852] I wonder if his DNA has ever put in CODIS because that's a long time to have been out doing fucking...

[853] Who knows what?

[854] terrible thing, most likely.

[855] Yeah.

[856] And this was a, this was a very shocking, like, kind of detail because in 1981, Brazoria County Sheriff, Lieutenant Matt Wingo, he starts counting how many young women been murdered in this area between 1971 and 1981.

[857] 21 young girls were shot and their bodies were dumped into the nearby marshes in bayous between 1971 and 1988 10 years and 21 young women what the fuck how did nobody fucking pinpoint that pattern like yeah well because it's like they were doing it backwards they were saying here's the guy we're going to get and this is and now this is solved and it's just that thing of we talk about police corruption we talk about people having confessions coerced and what the thing that seems to get lost in that conversation is meanwhile right 14 and 15 year old girls are being plucked off of the street by some guy that no one fucking suspects or no one's doing anything about and those serial killers are allowed to continue killing at will right while they're locking up people whose IQ isn't high enough for them to keep themselves out of jail.

[858] So the convenient person is locked away and everyone believes that things have been taken care of and then a string of unsolved murders and, you know, and maybe they're runaways or maybe they're kids that hang out at the beach or maybe there are people that don't have city councilmen who are grandfathers to advocate for them.

[859] And so they just, they're, their bodies aren't found or their bodies aren't looked for right right so they're killer you know they're forgotten they're forgotten victims or their quote throwaway victims and yep and which in the like in the 70s i mean that kind of define that era totally so as unsatisfying as it is and it's infuriating and frustrating as it is that's the tragic story of the murders of sharon shaw and ronda Renee Johnson.

[860] Wow.

[861] What a fucking mystery.

[862] Like, we'll never know.

[863] And there's no DNA that you can test, right?

[864] Because they've been in the water so long probably.

[865] Right.

[866] I mean, and who would do it?

[867] The crooked cops that are fucking holding up who are bank robbers.

[868] That's a bananas twist.

[869] I can't, that's, that's why I was trying to read that really fast because I was like, this is a 12 pager and I do apologize.

[870] No, you did great.

[871] It's crazy and it's like...

[872] It's riveting.

[873] It's...

[874] I wish there was just a system and maybe with DNA and with the kind of like technology that's coming out.

[875] It gets a, it's getting a little bit less like the human error element.

[876] Yeah.

[877] Getting removed.

[878] Yeah, you got to hope.

[879] You hope.

[880] As long as humans are involved, there's going to be human error.

[881] Yeah, true.

[882] A lot of it.

[883] Well, great job.

[884] That was that was fascinating.

[885] and awful, and you did a good job.

[886] Thank you.

[887] This actually weirdly has some similarities to your case in it.

[888] So I'm sure Hannah, or a wonderful producer, put these together on purpose.

[889] We've all heard the words, Karen, you have the right to remain silent.

[890] Anything you say, Canon will be used against you in a court of law, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah.

[891] We've heard it in many movies and TV shows.

[892] It's like the corny line that ends the fucking scene in Law and Order.

[893] There are rights.

[894] There are rights.

[895] There are rights.

[896] So you've heard them and maybe some people listening, I've heard them in real life, which, you know, hey, life happens.

[897] But many people don't know that the history of the saying actually comes from a specific case of a possibly coerced confession.

[898] And the answer to this lies in the U .S. Supreme Court's landmark ruling on Miranda v. Arizona.

[899] It's right.

[900] Today I'm going to tell you the history of the Miranda rights.

[901] Nice.

[902] Okay.

[903] The sources I use today are an AP staff article.

[904] an article written by Ron Dugan for the Republic, the Lewis and Roca law firm, the impact of Miranda revisited by Richard A. Leo and the National Constitution Center website.

[905] So prior to the Miranda versus Arizona ruling, suspects did have a right to remain silent and the right to an attorney, thanks to the Fifth and Sixth Amendments, but that wasn't often relayed before interrogation.

[906] At the time, police procedures when getting a, suspect to confess, often implemented really aggressive tactics, the third degree, that sort of thing, as we just heard in your story.

[907] Yeah.

[908] And relied on manipulation, strong arming the suspects, and it often led to false confessions, and many subsequent wrongfully convicted people.

[909] One example is the case of Brown v. Mississippi.

[910] On March 30th, 1934, a man named Raymond Stewart, who was a white farmer, was murdered.

[911] in Kemper County, Mississippi.

[912] Three black tenant farmers, Arthur Ellington, Ed Brown, and Henry Shields were arrested for his murder and subsequently confessed.

[913] At trial, that confession was the prosecution's only evidence to the three men's guilt, but the defense didn't deny that the three men had confessed, but that they did so only after being subjected to brutal beatings by the officers.

[914] Quote, the defendants were made to strip and they were laid over chairs and their backs were cut to pieces with a leather strap with buckles on it.

[915] And they were likewise made to understand that the whippings would be continued unless and until they confessed.

[916] So one defendant had also been strung up by his neck from a tree in addition to the whippings.

[917] The defendants were convicted by a jury based on their coerced confessions and sentenced to be hanged.

[918] But later, the court revised the conviction saying that when a confession is extracted by police violence, it cannot be entered as evidence.

[919] Ultimately, the three defendants pleaded no lo contendre to manslaughter rather than risk retrial.

[920] And they were sentenced to six months, two and one half years, and seven and one half years in prison respectively.

[921] Yeah.

[922] So despite there being no other evidence against them.

[923] So police officers didn't have to make sure the suspects knew about or understood their Fifth and Sixth Amendment rights, but just had to make sure any confessions were made, quote, voluntarily.

[924] And that's what Phoenix police allegedly thought they were getting on March 13, 1963, when they got a confession out of Ernesto Miranda.

[925] So in March, 1963, an 18 -year -old woman who was referred to by the pseudonym Patricia Weir is kidnapped, bound, and raped in Phoenix, Arizona.

[926] She goes to the police and tells them that the perpetrator's car is green or gray with dark -striped upholstery inside and that the car smelled of turpentine.

[927] which is such a creepy awful detail.

[928] Around a week later, a family member of Patricia sees a car that matches the description of the perpetrator's car.

[929] He writes down part of the license plate and the family member then goes to the detective in charge, Carol Cooley, and gives him the partial license plate number and tells him he thinks the car is a 1953 Packard.

[930] So Cooley runs the partial in the system and finds around 1 ,000 or something like that.

[931] license plates in Arizona, but then there is one car that's a 1953 packard.

[932] So he looks up the owner's name and finds that it's Ernesto Miranda.

[933] Cooley notices Arresto has a criminal history, including robbery and attempted rape.

[934] And Cooley thinks Ernesto seems like a solid suspect for the kidnapping and rape of Patricia.

[935] 23 -year -old Ernesto, who was born in Mesa in 1941 and had only an eighth grade education, has a long criminal history.

[936] So I'm just going to do a quick summary.

[937] of it.

[938] So, like, part of the story is that this isn't a great guy, and he actually might have been guilty of this.

[939] He has a long criminal history.

[940] He was arrested for his first felony when he was in eighth grade.

[941] A few months later, Ernesto was arrested for burglary and sent to a school for delinquent children.

[942] Two months after he left school, he was charged with attempted rape and assault.

[943] When he got out of prison, he continued getting charged with crimes like peeping, armed robbery, and stealing cars.

[944] He was in and out of prison.

[945] But in March, 1963, he was free and was living with his girlfriend.

[946] So Ernesto wasn't the best guy that ever lived, but that doesn't mean he didn't have rights.

[947] So on March 13th, Cooley goes to Ernesto and his girlfriend's house.

[948] She opens the door holding their baby.

[949] There are other kids around her.

[950] And so Cooley asked for Ernesto.

[951] He comes out of the bedroom, had just woken up, and he says, Cooley tells him he doesn't want to talk to him in front of his family.

[952] Will he come down to a police station?

[953] Ernesto agrees he's not handcuffed because he isn't under arrest and he's not told he has the right to remain silent or to an attorney because it isn't the law at the time.

[954] Once they're at the station, a sergeant tells Cooley that there is an unsolved robbery where the suspect also matches Ernesto's description.

[955] And so the sergeant tells Cooley to talk to Ernesto about the robbery in addition to the rape of Patricia.

[956] So Patricia's brought in to view a lineup and so is the unsolved robbery victim and a woman named.

[957] Barbara McDaniel, and both women view the lineup and pick Ernesto out.

[958] I think it was only four men.

[959] They say he, quote, looks like the perpetrator, not that he is for sure the guy, which I guess from what I read is pretty typical with suspect lineups.

[960] When the lineup is done, Ernesto asked how he did and Cooley says he was picked out by both victims.

[961] Cooley asks Ernesto to write out a confession for both crimes.

[962] So in the 1960s, typical interrogation tactics included isolating the accused in a cell in solitary confinement.

[963] They also would shine bright lights in their face for hours and then deprive them, you know, contact with a lawyer or any family members.

[964] And so although he was only questioned for two hours, and some say Ernesto may have been harassed into his confession, although Cooley calls total bullshit on that, he does write out his own confession.

[965] At the top of each page, there's a printed certification that he signs.

[966] It reads, quote, this statement is voluntary and of my own free will with no threats, coercion, or promises of unity, and with full knowledge of my legal rights, understanding any statement I make may be used against me, which is like, kid had a great education, so he may not have understood that at all.

[967] Also, I can't tell you how many things I sign without reading the fine print.

[968] Everything, but I feel like if we were in a police station.

[969] Oh, the pressure and, like, you know that he wasn't by himself.

[970] Like, they didn't say take your time and really go over that.

[971] Right.

[972] Like, there was probably someone standing right behind him or, you know what I mean?

[973] It's just like sign here, sign here and you don't even get to read it.

[974] Which is why, like, that's what a lawyer is for is they actually understand all that stuff, which is why it's so important even if you are innocent to have a lawyer there because you still have to sign shit to get out of there.

[975] Yes.

[976] You know?

[977] Yeah.

[978] You need someone familiar with the documents.

[979] With the law.

[980] Yeah.

[981] Yeah.

[982] With your rights.

[983] With your rights.

[984] But maybe you don't have any because it's the 60s.

[985] But the statement isn't exactly true because Ernesto hasn't been informed of his right to remain silent or to have an attorney present.

[986] So Ernesto later said he was told the robbery charges would be dropped if he confessed to the kidnapping charge.

[987] And that's why he confessed.

[988] So it almost seems like from what I've read, there's no part of him saying, way, I didn't do it.

[989] You know, maybe I was kind of bargaining.

[990] Yeah.

[991] So maybe he was guilty and he was.

[992] was bargaining, you know, which maybe a defense attorney would have done.

[993] But I'm not, I can't say for certain that he was guilty, but nothing in the stuff I've read says that he tried to convince anyone he wasn't.

[994] I mean, I kind of, I like the point you're making, though, which is the, the aim is not perfection.

[995] Right.

[996] Because that's not, you don't have to earn your rights.

[997] You get them automatically.

[998] Right.

[999] Right.

[1000] But when he's arraigned, Ernesto finds out the robbery charge hasn't been drop.

[1001] He asked for an attorney multiple times and doesn't get one for two weeks.

[1002] When it comes time for Ernesto to face a trial for the kidnapping and rape of Patricia, Ernesto's attorney objects to Ernesto's written confession being entered into evidence.

[1003] The attorney says that the Supreme Court has previously ruled that a suspect is entitled to an attorney during interrogation.

[1004] The judge overrules the objection.

[1005] Concession is entered into evidence and Ernesto Miranda is found guilty of rape and kidnapping and a sentence to 20 to 30 years for each conviction.

[1006] So Ernesto appeals to the Arizona Supreme Court, but they affirm his sentence.

[1007] And then in June of 1965, Ernesto requests that the U .S. Supreme Court review his case.

[1008] The ACLU finds out about it and asks multiple attorneys from the Lewis and Roca law firm in Phoenix to represent him pro bono.

[1009] And Phoenix lawyers John P. Frank and John J. Flynn agree to take the case, arguing that Miranda's confession was obtained using intolerable and unlawful interrogation techniques.

[1010] and they agree to write a petition to the Supreme Court, arguing that his Fifth Amendment's rights were violated.

[1011] Supreme Court, I guess, has a few of these, a lot of these cases, and they decide to address four cases involving these rights at once, and then by consolidating them into one ruling.

[1012] So in each case, the defendant was questioned by police in, quote, a room in which he was cut off from the outside world.

[1013] the defendants were never given, quote, full and effective warning of their rights or the interrogation, and the questioning led to signed statements that were admitted at trial.

[1014] So Ernesto is one of four cases selected for a review.

[1015] The others are Roy Stewart, Michael Vignera, and Carl Westover.

[1016] And you don't recognize any of those names.

[1017] And the reason we hear it as the Miranda rights is because his last name was first alphabetically.

[1018] Like, that's fucking it.

[1019] So it could have been the Westover rights.

[1020] or the fucking Stewart rights, which is like, what the fuck?

[1021] I don't know.

[1022] There's just a weird little detail about it.

[1023] So on June 13th, 1966, in a five to four decision, the Supreme Court overturns all of their convictions.

[1024] The other ones are all kind of for robberies and that sort of thing.

[1025] The court rules that no confession is admissible in court if a suspect was not made clear of their rights before the interrogation began.

[1026] The suspect has to be clearly informed of their right to remain silent and that any they say will be used against them in court and that they have the right to an attorney if they can't afford one, an attorney will be appointed to them.

[1027] You know, those things.

[1028] That's right.

[1029] That's right.

[1030] The things we always hear.

[1031] The court's ruling is controversial.

[1032] It's opposed by, of course, the police who are like, how are we going to get a confession if we can't strong arm them?

[1033] Prosecutors, the media, politicians.

[1034] They call for Chief Justice Earl Warren's impeachment, who was in charge of the Supreme Court decision.

[1035] Police officers believe they will not be able to get a confession once if they know their rights yeah which is like well that's the fucking point of this whole entire thing right the ruling completely changes how law enforcement goes about obtaining confessions in like just landmark case following the supreme court's decision the police departments create Miranda warning cards so they give all the officers these cards to carry around with them and the words contain the now famous Miranda rights in February 1967 Ernesto Miranda is retried for the rape and kidnapping charges.

[1036] This time his signed confession is not entered into evidence, but he's still found guilty and sentenced to 20 years for each conviction.

[1037] So, yeah.

[1038] Ernesto Miranda is paroled in December, 1972.

[1039] So so much for those 20 to fucking 30 years, right?

[1040] But on the outside, he's famous.

[1041] In prison, he was famous.

[1042] Like one time they said something about in the news that someone was read their Miranda rights and everyone in the cell block cheered.

[1043] So on the outside, he's famous.

[1044] He autographs Miranda warning cards for a $1 .50 each.

[1045] Almost immediately after being released on parole, he violates his parole, sent back to prison, released again in December, 1975.

[1046] On January 31st, 1976, Ernesto's involved in a bar fight in Phoenix at this dive bar called La Ampolo after a card game goes wrong, you know, that sort of thing.

[1047] A man named Ezekiel Moreno Perez ends up stabbing Ernesto multiple times, and by the time the paramedics arrive, 34 -year -old Ernesto Miranda is dead.

[1048] Whoa.

[1049] Yeah.

[1050] Police find Moreno at a nearby motel.

[1051] Read him his Miranda rights, ironically.

[1052] Ironically.

[1053] Ironically.

[1054] But they don't take him into custody.

[1055] He flees.

[1056] He's never found.

[1057] Whoa.

[1058] I know.

[1059] And today, the Miranda rights are one of the most recognizable and influential legal decisions in modern policing.

[1060] And that is the story of Ernesto Miranda and the Miranda rights.

[1061] You know what blows my mind is because it feels like these days when things need to change or there's big kind of like overhaul type things.

[1062] We all, and I mean, I'll just speak for myself.

[1063] I'm always just like, they'll never do that.

[1064] That'll never happen.

[1065] Right.

[1066] Because nobody wants that point of time to be like, so now we've made.

[1067] it so that you have to read them their rights, now you have to do it.

[1068] Yeah.

[1069] Especially to a group of people like the police.

[1070] Yeah.

[1071] They're the ones who tell other people what to do.

[1072] Right.

[1073] And suddenly they have people telling them.

[1074] And their argument is like, we're trying to keep these criminals off of your street so they won't hurt you.

[1075] Like, we're trying to do the right thing in their minds, of course, you know.

[1076] Right.

[1077] That's what they think.

[1078] And now you're impeding that by putting these rules which is like well no fucking group can be unpoliced and keep people safe it's like the point is public safety and you can't do that by any means necessary or there's because absolute power corrupts absolutely and then suddenly you have the all I could think of as you were telling that story was that horrifying scene from LA confidential where they have all those boys that young black kids that get arrested yeah because that that girl is raped and they find and they separate all of them and they do they do the third degree yeah and it is so disturbing yeah and is so scary yeah and of course it works and they were innocent and there's case after case especially of people of color who that third degree is used with that with impunity and there's so many false confessions because of it and that and that means the person who actually committed the crime goes free.

[1079] Yes.

[1080] And how is that keeping our streets safe and the public safe if that's what's happening?

[1081] Yeah.

[1082] If you can just beat the shit out of someone and make them do what you want, yes, you're going to get this thing done in front of you right now.

[1083] But ultimately, you're going to still have 21 teenage girls murdered between 1971 and 1981 and the Galveston area because you, quote, unquote, took care of it.

[1084] Yeah.

[1085] Because you scare the ever -loving shit.

[1086] out of a suspect with who didn't know any better who had no representation you pointed a gun at their head yeah like I would confess to something if someone put them put a gun in my head well that's great I'm that's fascinating information and it's the kind of stuff like that I would have if you had asked me I would have said oh yeah I know I know about that yeah and I'd know I do interesting yeah I just found out about it a couple years ago and I was like yeah I guess that would make sense that the name Miranda isn't just a made up word like it's it's so much in our lexicon that we don't even consider the fact that it's actually someone's name because of a court case.

[1087] Yeah.

[1088] Funny.

[1089] Yeah.

[1090] Nice one.

[1091] Thank you.

[1092] Thank you guys, as always and forever for listening.

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