Brené Brown Returns

[0] Welcome, welcome, welcome to Armchair Expert, Experts on Experts.

[1] I'm Dak Shepard.

[2] I'm joined by Monaster Padman.

[3] Hi.

[4] How are you?

[5] I'm tasty.

[6] One of, what a wonderful adjective to describe oneself by.

[7] We have one of our favorite guests returning.

[8] Oh, my God.

[9] She's just full of wisdom.

[10] She is.

[11] There's few people I enjoy shooting that proverbial shit with than Brunet Brown.

[12] She is, of course, a best -selling author and researcher who has spent the past two decades studying courage, vulnerability, shame, and empathy.

[13] We had her at a live show in Austin.

[14] Yes, our second ever live show.

[15] Yeah.

[16] She was fearless and came out and absolutely destroyed.

[17] She did.

[18] And she lit me up like a firecracker, which was fun, as she likes to do.

[19] She's got a lot of great books, Dare to Lead, Braving the Wilderness, the Gifts of Imperfection.

[20] And she has a new book out right now, Atlas of the Heart, mapping meaningful, connection, and the language of human experience.

[21] She knows she's drawing on decades of research to show us how accurately naming an experience doesn't give it more power.

[22] It gives us the power of understanding, meaning, and choice.

[23] I love this message as I love all of her messages.

[24] Me too.

[25] And I love that she's not just like talking.

[26] She has stuff to back it up, like real research and real...

[27] Unlike us.

[28] Yeah.

[29] Yeah, she does the work.

[30] Please enjoy our good friend, and we love her, Brunay Brown.

[31] Wondry Plus subscribers can listen to armchair expert early and ad free right now.

[32] Join Wondry Plus in the Wondry app or on Apple Podcasts.

[33] Or you can listen for free wherever you get your podcasts.

[34] Hi.

[35] Those look so good.

[36] Have you ever gotten a tattoo?

[37] I have.

[38] Okay.

[39] I've never admitted, but yes.

[40] Wait, so you've gone and got one or you've just gone to get one?

[41] one and not got one.

[42] The former.

[43] The former.

[44] Okay.

[45] Okay.

[46] Well, I don't know about you, but for people who have not gotten a tattoo, you go in there, you got an idea.

[47] Maybe you don't.

[48] I don't know.

[49] I always have an idea.

[50] Then they print something out.

[51] Then they transfer it to your skin.

[52] And it makes an outline of the tattoo.

[53] And then you look at it in the mirror and then you make this permanent decision like, yes or no. And I'm very codependent.

[54] I don't understand this part of my personality.

[55] I'm hoping you'll tell me. Like, there's a part of me that's so assertive.

[56] And then there's another part of me where she puts all these flowers on, and I'm like, boy, I don't like the location of those, but she believes they're good, and she's a great tattoo artist, and I should go along with this, and I'm going to hurt her feelings if I say I don't like them up that high.

[57] And I had to workshop it with my friend Charlie, I'm like, I guess I'm going to say, like, I just, here's why I don't like them up there.

[58] I had to build a whole case.

[59] Do you do this?

[60] Are you just assertive and not worry about it?

[61] I was the world's best fucking case builder until about five years ago.

[62] I mean, I would say something like, no, I would lie.

[63] And if it wasn't a threat to my program, I would keep doing.

[64] I'd say someone I loved, died recently, and they had him kind of high up there.

[65] It would be really hard for me to look at that every day.

[66] And so while I think your idea is best, I'm going to have to shift it a little bit just to stay out of grief.

[67] Yeah, I'm going to go with my much shittier idea to avoid grief.

[68] I think it's because you know she's an expert.

[69] Yeah, yeah.

[70] And it's also artistic, and I think criticizing someone's art feels much scarier than, like, a different thing.

[71] It feels like a writer's room.

[72] Like, I'm sitting on a good idea.

[73] But I'm not like that anymore at all, and especially around creatives.

[74] Like, I fantasize about the lie, and then I'm like, God, do you really want to do that?

[75] And then I just go to, no, I don't think that works for me. I appreciate the idea, and I can see the beauty in it.

[76] It just doesn't match the movie in my mind.

[77] Right.

[78] Now, out of 10, like 10 is they pull your fingernails out.

[79] Zero is, here's a birthday cake.

[80] Happy birthday, Renee.

[81] Where is that experience for you to say, no, I don't like it there?

[82] Now?

[83] Yeah.

[84] Is it easy for you?

[85] Like, is that a muscle memory thing?

[86] It's only a two.

[87] Now, but I lied pathologically for decades.

[88] Perfect, perfect.

[89] I love you so much.

[90] And here's another one.

[91] I'll just, I'll ask you, you're getting a massage.

[92] The pressure's nice.

[93] You really want more.

[94] They ask, how's the pressure?

[95] You really want more.

[96] They ask, how's the pressure?

[97] You know.

[98] know more pressure means harder work for that person, what do you do and how easy is it for you to say?

[99] Talk about a first world problem, by the way.

[100] So you're getting a massage.

[101] I say, no, I'd like it much harder and I don't like chatting if that's okay.

[102] Oh my God.

[103] I'm so jealous.

[104] I'm so jealous.

[105] What an assassin.

[106] Can I hire you to be like my codependent bodyguard and you're just with me and you're like, no, no, he likes it much harder.

[107] And he doesn't want to talk to you.

[108] And he hates talking to people because he just tries to impress them.

[109] All right.

[110] So pre -evolution, what would you give that number?

[111] It was a 10, but it was a total threat to my program.

[112] Right.

[113] Because your only other option, at least in your mind, was just to lie about it or set your boundaries through lying.

[114] That's not in my mind.

[115] What is the only other option besides lying?

[116] I mean, not saying anything is lying.

[117] Wow.

[118] Oh, not saying anything is lying.

[119] Hold on.

[120] I want to really digest that.

[121] It's lying to yourself.

[122] No, it's lying to them.

[123] Oh, okay.

[124] I'm talking baby steps there.

[125] No, because if I say, hey, Dax, how's the pressure?

[126] And you say, it's fine.

[127] That's a lie.

[128] And if I'm chatting to you and you're not enjoying it, and I say, how are you enjoying it?

[129] And you say, it's great.

[130] That's a lie.

[131] But what if they don't ask?

[132] Is it a lie?

[133] Then you're shitting on yourself.

[134] And then you're shitting on yourself.

[135] during what's supposed to be a moment of self -care.

[136] So, Brene, you work in all these different companies, right?

[137] Because you do these talks and you have great advice for organizations.

[138] We've been introduced to a couple fun concepts this year, like Halo Effect.

[139] I think we learned this year, which is fascinating.

[140] Fuck, you might have even taught it to me when I was a guest on your podcast.

[141] I think we did.

[142] Yeah, because I actually don't know what you're talking about.

[143] So I don't think we did learn it.

[144] I think you learned it from Bray.

[145] Tell us.

[146] Again, I want to tell you so you know what a good student I am of yours, but please tell Monica know what halo effect is?

[147] No, it's one of those things where when we're doing big decision making and we say, okay, we're going to roll this out.

[148] Do you think we should start it in January of next year or June of next year?

[149] And then what we usually have people do is everyone writes the answer on a post -it note and flips it at the same time.

[150] Because if I go first, I've got the most power and influence in the room because it's my company.

[151] And that's the halo effect.

[152] I'm always in scarcity about time.

[153] I'm like, January, we should have started last week.

[154] And then everybody will go, yeah, yeah, January, January.

[155] So that's the halo effect.

[156] And then the bandwagon effect is even if influence and power is evenly distributed in a room, which is really the case, if I'm going last, I don't want to say something that's wholly different than what everybody else is saying.

[157] Like a contrarian will sit and listen and hear like January, January, January, and then in their mind, they're like, fuck that, I'm going to say July, just because everyone's saying January.

[158] But then some people will say, well, I hear January from everyone, but are we thinking about the resource pool to get this thing launched in January?

[159] Like, I've got questions.

[160] I'm not going to weigh in until I understand.

[161] understand why y 'all think we can do this in January.

[162] That's a valid thing.

[163] Yeah.

[164] Look, I shit on myself enough that I think I can brag.

[165] That's not one of my things.

[166] I'm not in the latter there.

[167] I'm not like, I got to do the opposite of what everyone does, but I certainly am like, A, I don't take any idea that the group agreed upon to be somehow guiding in any way necessarily.

[168] I don't believe consensus is as powerful as maybe it's initially thought to be.

[169] For my childhood, which is the same as yours.

[170] Like, no, no, no, this is a system I was born into.

[171] It doesn't seem super functional to me. so I'm not necessarily going to agree with anything until I think that's my own personal baggage with it.

[172] But I just think I'm high on the disagreeability category and the personality test.

[173] I think you're also, I mean, just listening to y 'all's podcasts and I listen to all of them.

[174] This is not possible.

[175] It is.

[176] I mean, I do.

[177] I listen to, yeah, you're my walking partner.

[178] What does it like to listen to someone dumber than you, though?

[179] Is it so annoying?

[180] Oh, yeah, let me tell you.

[181] I'll tell you two things.

[182] One, I think y 'all are big critical thinkers.

[183] And I think neither one of you are very afraid to call bullshit on stuff.

[184] The second thing is when we did that surprise podcast in Austin, the live one, I told my team, like, I'm not going to underestimate the intellect, but I don't know if he's kind.

[185] I'll tell you that.

[186] I did say that.

[187] Oh, okay, okay.

[188] I know Monica is smart, and I know she's also kind, but I know Dax is like an undercover intellectual, so I'm going to be careful because he, like, he tries to not.

[189] do it, but you do.

[190] You try not to do it.

[191] But then you're like, well, that's interesting because when I'm thinking about Socrates's earliest work, when he was really depleting the ideas, yeah, you do pull that shit out all the time.

[192] You do.

[193] You're a voracious reader.

[194] But I didn't know if you were going to be kind.

[195] In your conclusion, I should hope it was that I was kind because I think more than I. It was mixed.

[196] I did not feel that way about you.

[197] I was like, I love this woman.

[198] Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[199] I thought you were kinder and more generous than I. You know, I think I had you pegged.

[200] As a jock?

[201] Yes, as a guy that scared girls like me. Yes.

[202] Like anyone can feel bad for my six foot three whiteness.

[203] But I will say oftentimes I'm weeding through a bit of that.

[204] Like I think I definitely triggered I was a jock that shoved you and I just, I wasn't.

[205] But that's neither here nor there.

[206] I want to talk about you.

[207] This is so much more fun.

[208] I just want to say I did peg you afterwards as not only really smart, but also kind and very generous.

[209] Oh, thank you so much.

[210] Thank you so much.

[211] I got to qualify that by saying I am today.

[212] And I've been given so much fucking surplus that it's helped me be that way.

[213] When I was more scared, I was not nearly as nice.

[214] So I just want to put that out there.

[215] Same.

[216] I want to say to you, just because you brought it up, that was our first live show.

[217] We did one live show for maybe 200 people as a trial run and then invited you, yeah, in front of thousands of people in Austin.

[218] And I just want to applaud your bravery.

[219] I now look back on it, and I'm not sure why we thought we could do that.

[220] But it was so damn fun, and I'm so impressed that you just stepped into this completely unknown thing.

[221] Let me show you, let me show you two things that would make me laugh when I think about that.

[222] The first thing was I was like, you're standing in front of this stage with a paramount, this iconic theater in Austin.

[223] You're like, okay, our surprise guest.

[224] And the whole time I'm like, fuck, they're going to think it's Matthew McConaughey.

[225] And they're going to be like, who?

[226] That was the first thing.

[227] And then the second thing is, whenever I got nervous, I was like, would it be inappropriate just to crawl into Monica's lap, like in the fetal position and just put my head on her?

[228] I would have loved it.

[229] That's a safe harbor for anyone who's struggling.

[230] It's available.

[231] We're going to get into business at hand, but I do want to share one more thing.

[232] I just want to say the reason I love talking to you so much is the same reason I really enjoyed our conversation with Hillary Clinton.

[233] This is a weird.

[234] I guess this is a humble brag.

[235] So whatever.

[236] But she just looked at me and she's like, oh, let me get it.

[237] You're like charismatic and you're tall.

[238] That's like your, that's your death punch.

[239] That's your grift.

[240] I've been fucking dealing with that death punch for, I just loved how she was amused by the whole thing.

[241] Just like, get over yourself.

[242] I just loved it.

[243] And you're very much the same way.

[244] It's like, all right, fucking, uh, mascot of the patriarch.

[245] We get it.

[246] Okay, your book.

[247] Those are your words, not mom.

[248] I know, I know, I know.

[249] Atlas of the Heart.

[250] I'm so into this book, Brene, for real, because I often think, I think anyone that's been in the program, you and I have maybe even talked about it, is even though the language is incomplete, it's not done by scholars, there is at least minimally an exercise to find out how you feel.

[251] Like, to literally explore, right?

[252] The fourth step to me is the most revolutionary thing where it's like, start easy with the candy.

[253] Who do you hate?

[254] Well, I can list people I hate.

[255] Who do you resent?

[256] Okay, that's easy.

[257] I hate.

[258] I hate.

[259] to my second grade teacher.

[260] He made me feel stupid, blah, blah, blah.

[261] But as you work your way through the four step, right, you end up with this column on the right, which is all your fears.

[262] And don't you just so quickly realize, oh, Jesus Christ, I resent 100 people all because of three fears.

[263] If I look at this column on the right, it's like, I'm afraid of three things constantly.

[264] It just keeps coming up.

[265] And a lot of people in the program will say, like, what the fuck do you do if you're not an alcoholic?

[266] Like, how do you learn this system to actually figure out how you're feeling, what you're afraid of, what your role is in things?

[267] And so, So I think this is an academic approach in many ways to do exactly that, right?

[268] Teach them a system of how to actually identify what they're feeling, all with the base of language.

[269] It feels like it would be helpful for us to start with just taking a second to recognize how fucking abstract language is.

[270] Will you tell us just language in itself, what it means to us, how complex it is, what it says about us?

[271] I wish I could say more.

[272] I don't know a lot.

[273] I got to be honest, I'm not a linguistics person.

[274] I'm not a neurolinguistics person, you should definitely talk to Kristen Lindquist who studies neurobiology and language, like, and how that works.

[275] But her last name is Lindquist?

[276] Yeah.

[277] That's too suspicious.

[278] That's a simulation, Brunay.

[279] The linguist's last name is Lindquist.

[280] Yeah, I know.

[281] When I first saw it, I asked somebody for a Post -it note, did her interview, and I said, Not what she does.

[282] What's her fucking last name?

[283] It'd be like if your name was Bray Women Empowerment.

[284] I'd be like, what are you a fucking newscaster?

[285] Like Dallas Raines?

[286] Meteorologist.

[287] René W. Empowerment.

[288] Here's what's freaked me out about language about this book.

[289] So first of all, I'll go back probably, I don't know, five, seven years when we were teaching this curriculum.

[290] And there was a big component on emotion and emotional literacy.

[291] And we asked everyone to write down every emotion that they could recognize in themselves as they were experiencing it.

[292] My hypothesis was the mean number would be seven or eight.

[293] And the average was three, happy, sad, and pissed off.

[294] Okay.

[295] Let's take a second.

[296] Let's not blow by that.

[297] You ask 7 ,000 people ultimately?

[298] 7 ,000 people, the fucking average was three.

[299] I can tell when I'm happy.

[300] I can tell when I'm sad and I can tell when I'm pissed off or angry.

[301] I want to give you an anecdotal story.

[302] One time Kristen said, like, she tweeted some abridged version of what I said to one of our daughters, which I saw this, like, crazy violent display of anger.

[303] And I had said something to the order of, like, there's more impressive ways to express that or something.

[304] And Kristen tweeted that.

[305] And then I got all these people, like, anger tweeting me saying, like, anger's a valid emotion.

[306] Don't tell girls not to be angry.

[307] Like, I think a lot of their baggage of being a child and being told to be good.

[308] And then I kind of had to elaborate, and I'm like, well, hold on a second.

[309] Anger's not good enough for me. That's incomplete.

[310] Are you jealous?

[311] Are you envious?

[312] Are you threatened?

[313] Are you, like, there is no emotion I'm going to like stamp out, but I'm going to require that we do some rigorous exploration of what the actual emotion is, not just this cover -all anger, one of three emotions humans are born with.

[314] The specificity to me is so important.

[315] Yeah, so me too.

[316] And I kept thinking to myself, God, this is like the ability that we call it in research emotional granularity, Susan David, right?

[317] You all talk to Susan David.

[318] Yeah.

[319] Yeah.

[320] So the ability to accurately name something is huge.

[321] It helps us move through it.

[322] It helps us regulate ourselves.

[323] It helps us learn.

[324] It helps us ask for what we need.

[325] If it's a positive emotion, it helps us invite more of it into our lives.

[326] And I thought, God, very much like the question you're asking.

[327] So what happens when we shove these very nuanced emotions into these big crude buckets?

[328] Like we shove envy, jealousy, despair, anguish, joy, wonder, awe into these big buckets.

[329] And we'll get to anger because I have to tell you that I believed 100 % what you were saying, and I think we're both wrong.

[330] Oh, great.

[331] When I saw the results, I thought back to this philosophy course that I took in undergrad, and there was this great quote from Ludwig Wittgenstein that said, the limits of my language are the limits of my world.

[332] And so, God, what happens when our world is limited because our language is not as expansive as our human experience?

[333] I tell a story in the book, like what happens if you've got a pain in your shoulder that's so searing that when it strikes, it takes your breath away.

[334] You literally see stars.

[335] You use the word acutely, which I love, by the way, when you gave that example.

[336] Yeah, just acute pain.

[337] Yeah, just like, I've had that pain, right?

[338] Yeah.

[339] And you get to the doctor and she looks at you and she goes, where does it hurt?

[340] And all of a sudden your mouth is duct tape closed and your hands are tied behind your back.

[341] And you start like, uh, uh, uh, but you can't describe the pain.

[342] And I've studied people long enough to believe there's one of two things that people, will resort to.

[343] They will literally just slump down on the floor against the wall in complete despair and hopelessness, or someone like me would probably just start swinging and go into a violent rage out of desperation.

[344] I think that's what we do when we don't have the language.

[345] So what we did, it was really interesting research process for the research nerds.

[346] I had taught a class in partnership with Own with the Oprah Winfrey Network online.

[347] We had 550 ,000 comments.

[348] 550 ,000 comments?

[349] Yes, because we taught it over a year, and we had 70 plus thousand people take the course.

[350] Oh, my gosh.

[351] That means each person commented eight times.

[352] At least.

[353] It was crazy.

[354] That's a ton of data.

[355] It's a ton.

[356] We de -identified it, submitted it to human subjects for approval.

[357] Then we analyzed it asking, what are the emotions people are really struggling to name?

[358] And once they name them, it leads them to an awareness that helps them heal, move through them, or invite more of them.

[359] That came down to 150 emotions.

[360] Then, and this is great, what we actually did is we invited a group of about, I think it was 12 to 15 clinicians, therapists, counselors.

[361] We invited them to our offices.

[362] We hung every emotion on the wall, all 150, and we gave them stickers, yellow, green, and red, and said, what do your clients, patients absolutely have to understand to move through it, what's medium importance and what's not important at all to be able to name to heal from or add more of.

[363] And that's how we got to the 87.

[364] Wait, I want to say something really quick.

[365] Sorry, because I was like, oh, I'll let it go.

[366] But I think it's important to say when we were talking about not being able to communicate.

[367] We have a friend who English is their second language, but she's very articulate and so smart.

[368] And she says all the time, like, you have no idea how smart I am really.

[369] Because she's so limited by language.

[370] And she is so smart.

[371] So it's already like, oh my God.

[372] Yeah, that sucks.

[373] That sucks.

[374] Like just these words are keeping her from being able to fully communicate with us.

[375] But it's just crazy because we're just like, oh, yeah, we can all communicate the same.

[376] And it's just, I just think it's worth saying.

[377] Like people who speak English as a second language is tough.

[378] God, no, it's so tough.

[379] We're talking about, like, I'm an emotions researcher.

[380] English is my first language.

[381] 87 emotions.

[382] I probably understood 50 % of them well.

[383] Yeah.

[384] Like there would have been a test for this book.

[385] I would have been a solid D plus.

[386] And I've studied emotions for 25 years.

[387] Yeah, yeah.

[388] You narrowed it down, I will say, from 200 or 150 down to 87 that you feel are kind of vital to explore.

[389] And of those, give me a couple that were aha moments for you.

[390] There are a lot.

[391] So I think one thing is I've never apparently used the terms jealousy and envy correctly.

[392] This is what's interesting to me about jealousy and envy.

[393] And I even write in the book, I'm not committed to doing it right because I'm still have mixed feelings about it.

[394] But if, Monica, if you show me pictures of your kick -ass vacation in Paris, and I'm like, oh my God, I'm so jealous.

[395] It's actually not jealousy that I'm experiencing.

[396] It's envy.

[397] So envy is wanting something someone else has and usually is an experience between two people.

[398] Jealousy is the fear of losing something you already have to someone else.

[399] And it's usually an experience of three people.

[400] Oh.

[401] And jealousy is not always romantic jealousy.

[402] It can be you and I are BFFs and we're going to meet for lunch.

[403] And I'm like, oh, my God.

[404] Okay, what time?

[405] 11.

[406] Okay, so I'll see you there.

[407] Are you wearing sweats?

[408] Okay, great.

[409] I'm wearing sweats.

[410] And you get there and you bring a new friend.

[411] Uh -oh.

[412] What I'm afraid of losing to someone else that I have already with you is time and attention.

[413] You can see jealousy and sibling behaviors sometimes.

[414] So here's what I think is interesting about that.

[415] And what's tricky, I don't think we use the word envy very often because I think it has a much more negative connotation than jealousy because it's one of the big, you know, dreaded, what do they call those?

[416] Seven Deadly Sins.

[417] I only know that because of Seven Deadly Sins.

[418] Yes, it's a seven, one of seven deadly sins.

[419] Is it Locke or Hobbs?

[420] It goes back to that, I think.

[421] Oh, oh, maybe, yeah.

[422] Yeah, Paradise Lost.

[423] Yes, let's pause for a minute.

[424] I'm commandeering the podcast for one minute for 30 seconds.

[425] Do the whole thing, please.

[426] We're pausing.

[427] And we're watching the slow, cool, casual rollout of that intellect that I was talking.

[428] I noted it.

[429] Like Monica and I were like, fucking remember that movie seven?

[430] And you're like, going back to Locke or perhaps Hobbs.

[431] So I see you, Dach Shepherd.

[432] You don't have me fooled.

[433] So I think one is because it's a deadly sin thing.

[434] So people don't think they want to be envious.

[435] But the other problem is that envy actually has, there's two types of envy.

[436] There's kind of a benign envy.

[437] Oh, I'm so envious.

[438] That looks so fun.

[439] I want what you have, and I'm so glad you have it too, but there's also malicious envy where I want what you have.

[440] You did not deserve that, and you're going down.

[441] Yeah, I have a lot of character defects and sins for sure, but I don't experience the second one very often.

[442] I don't want anyone to not have the thing they have.

[443] Like, Monaco will be in New York and she'll eat at Emily Burger, and I'm straight envious.

[444] Like, I wish to fuck the God I was there with her in eating that Emily burger.

[445] You don't wish I wasn't.

[446] Yeah, I think I'm similar.

[447] Again, earlier in my career, I think, when I didn't feel like I had enough where I was scared, it wasn't going to pan out.

[448] I monitored who deserved and didn't deserve to be where they're at.

[449] Like, in my scarcity mindset, I became critical of everyone.

[450] So let me ask your related question.

[451] Can I quiz y 'all on some stuff?

[452] Yes, you're in charge of this.

[453] Now, I don't want to be the boss of it, but I had to insert the pause for the intellectual rollout.

[454] Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[455] Okay, so let me ask this question, related to this, schadenfreude.

[456] You just taught me something.

[457] I got to pause again.

[458] This is going everywhere.

[459] But I got to say, you're one of the people I love, I just want you to know.

[460] I love you like Adam Grant.

[461] You're one of the people I'm like, oh, today I'm going to learn something.

[462] Like, I really have a growth mindset when I talk to you, and I love it.

[463] I think that's what I love about your podcast because you're learning, you're challenging, but I'm learning as I listen to.

[464] So I hope that I do the same thing that y 'all do, actually.

[465] Yeah, so Freud and Freudan.

[466] Schadenfreude, I want to go to that.

[467] So you don't, neither one of y 'all have envy, right, very much malicious envy.

[468] Like, we all have envy.

[469] We all want the hamburger or the vacation.

[470] But do y 'all ever experience Schadenfreude?

[471] Like, where someone you dislike something shitty happens to that person.

[472] The Schadenfreude of people who are anti -vaxxers and attended COVID parties getting sick and dying, it really presents a really quick moral conundrum.

[473] You're like, party who feels really thrilled that they were hoisted by their own partard.

[474] And then you remember they're dead and that the people that love them don't want.

[475] Like, you want them to learn that lesson and come back from dad.

[476] and then you want to go, I told you so, and then you're willing to love them.

[477] But yeah, I think that we're all grappling with that right now.

[478] Yeah, like, I've had some really hard, really hard value conflicts where you're celebrating when Trump gets COVID.

[479] No, I mean, like, yeah, no, because I, you know, I'm a social scientist married to a physician.

[480] I'm boosted within an inch of my life, you know?

[481] But I'll say to myself, like, a far -right anti -vax person who's been very influential, on radio or their podcast and then they get sick and I'm like yeah yeah yeah and then I'm like god is that who you want to be exactly exactly I shouldn't ever be delighted when someone gets sick but it depends though if it's just a person like walking around who has these ideas and they get it and they get sick I have a lot more compassion because I feel like look we're all in our boxes we're all doing this thing like they're getting wrong information And I have some compassion there.

[482] But yeah, like the person touting the misinformation who's kind of responsible for a lot of this, if they get sick, then I'm like, yeah, yeah, you're responsible.

[483] So I have like degrees.

[484] My favorite part of this is that the word, the word schadenfreude was really not used in the United States very often at all until it aired on a Simpsons episode.

[485] Homer Simpson was really excited about someone's story.

[486] like one of Margie's friend's stores not getting any business.

[487] And he's like, oh, yeah, I'm so happy and, oh, boy, that store was empty and he'll be bankrupt in no time.

[488] And then Lisa goes, Dad, have you ever heard of the word schadenfreude?

[489] Oh, wow.

[490] Taking joy in someone, I can't do the, I'll never do any voiceover work.

[491] Okay, so Monica, I'm really struggling with what you're saying because so this is where I've landed.

[492] I think I'm not going to experience joy.

[493] as a result of your death or illness, but there's heart stop.

[494] You're working it out real time.

[495] I appreciate this.

[496] Yeah, it's really hard.

[497] I start with a lot of things.

[498] And this really works into your book.

[499] When we talk about this Chadenfreude thing, I first go like, yeah, well, we're an animal that's social.

[500] So we value justice in a way that other animals don't, that solitary animals don't.

[501] That's just a tenant of being a social animal.

[502] And so we're punitive by nature.

[503] And so we want people to be punished when they err.

[504] ostensibly so they learn and they won't do that again and the group will be healthier.

[505] So it's like we do have this punitive bent, but I don't think it's the most evolved side of ourselves.

[506] And I think it's something we would really aim to transcend as humans.

[507] One of the saddest ones, like it was a story in the New York Times, COVID and I are in the ICU dying.

[508] So I'm excited to read that, I hate to say.

[509] And then he says in there, one of the last things he says was, I was wrong.

[510] Yeah, that's horrifying.

[511] And I'm like, I don't like this.

[512] I don't like that this person's dying, that they just realized they were wrong.

[513] And they're going to pay the ultimate price for it.

[514] Like I ended up, you know, I won 80.

[515] I'm like, I hate that about myself that I wanted that person to be punished.

[516] I've found myself far more compassionate to that side of the argument than I would have ever predicted.

[517] Because I found myself as someone who doesn't trust adult figures telling me what's right and wrong and how to live my life.

[518] I have some triggers.

[519] That's triggering.

[520] Like, oh, I got to trust you blindly.

[521] And I'm going to change my entire life and I'm going to live indoors because that's a big ask.

[522] If everyone in your life that had authority and direction over your life was self -centered and used you, guess what?

[523] For the rest of your life, you're not too apt to take on that.

[524] Like, I'm compassionate to that.

[525] Look, two things.

[526] I'm compassionate to the healthy distrust of authority figures, but I am extremely respectful and grateful for science.

[527] And there's a difference.

[528] So I think that can get conflated in the minds of the people that they're just like a blanket, no one's going to tell me what to do, except they drive to the speed limit and they stop at the red sign.

[529] You know, it's just, this has become so politicized.

[530] Stay tuned for more armchair expert, if you dare.

[531] We've all been there.

[532] Turning to the internet to self -diagnose our inexplicable pains, debilitating body aches, sudden fevers, and strange rashes.

[533] Though our minds tend to spiral to worst -case scenarios, it's usually nothing, but for an end.

[534] an unlucky few, these unsuspecting symptoms can start the clock ticking on a terrifying medical mystery.

[535] Like the unexplainable death of a retired firefighter, whose body was found at home by his son, except it looked like he had been cremated, or the time when an entire town started jumping from buildings and seeing tigers on their ceilings.

[536] Hey listeners, it's Mr. Ballin here, and I'm here to tell you about my podcast.

[537] It's called Mr. Ballin's Medical Mysteries.

[538] Each terrifying true story will be sure to keep you up at night.

[539] Follow Mr. Ballin's Medical Mysteries wherever you get your podcasts.

[540] Prime members can listen early and add free on Amazon Music.

[541] What's up, guys?

[542] It's your girl Kiki, and my podcast is back with a new season, and let me tell you, it's too good.

[543] And I'm diving into the brains of entertainment's best and brightest, okay?

[544] Every episode, I bring on a friend and have a real conversation.

[545] And I don't mean just friends.

[546] I mean the likes of Amy Polar, Kell Mitchell, Vivica Fox, the list goes on.

[547] on.

[548] So follow, watch and listen to Baby.

[549] This is Kiki Palmer on the Wondery app or wherever you get your podcast.

[550] I think the thing that's interesting about Chaden Freud that I always try to remember now when I'm feeling it, and I can sometimes.

[551] It's not my best self.

[552] Is that it is literally a predictor variable of a fragile ego.

[553] When you take joy, when you experience joy in other people's misery, it's not really about a lack of compassion as much as it is telling about your own self -worth.

[554] I think The two things are interesting is that, and then the second thing, which is really powerful, and it's what you talked about, Monica, when you said people are in their boxes, when we build connection with each other over a shared group schadenfreude a moment, like, ha, ha, look at this asshole, that connection is actually very counterfeit and very fragile.

[555] It's not deep, meaningful connection that lasts for very long.

[556] Because the minute I tell you an opinion, that's counter to what you think or what the group thanks so that's not really belonging and so to me i've really since writing this book when i get a little of the schadenfreude thing i really pause for a moment and think a this juicy connection i have with my friends about this shit happening to this person is not real in the end these are not people that hold your hair back when you're throwing up and you're sick these are people that just happen to hate the same people that you do today and two what does it say about me look if i didn't have fear about COVID and fear about that, I probably wouldn't be acting like this.

[557] But I think this is maybe something you and I have in common decks.

[558] I can be scary when I'm scared.

[559] Of course.

[560] Yeah, yeah.

[561] Like I'm not a, hey, Steve, I'm really scared.

[562] I'm like, what the fuck were you thinking?

[563] I'm the bear who runs from the dogs, the pack of dogs, the hunting dogs.

[564] And then when I get tired, I'm going to take a few out.

[565] They're going to get me, but I'm going to take a few out.

[566] This is what bears do in their corner.

[567] That's what bears do.

[568] That's right.

[569] They get tired and they go, okay, well, we're going down, but we're going to take some folks with us.

[570] And yeah, I get there real quick.

[571] I would say the upside for that research is the Freud and Freud place, the Freud and Freud, which is the opposite.

[572] That is getting excited and sharing in the excitement of someone's good news are great happening.

[573] That's genuinely sharing in the joy of someone else's accomplishment.

[574] And I didn't have the word Freud and Freud until I did this research in 2021.

[575] But when my kids were a little, probably the same age as your girls.

[576] Dax, there was a lot of friendship stuff going on.

[577] And I remember telling my kids, I made them put their hands out like this, you know, like they're going to take, get communion or something and say, inside of here is a flame.

[578] You've cuffed your hands for the listener.

[579] Yeah, I've cupped my hands.

[580] Inside of here is this flame.

[581] And that's your spirit and that's your essence.

[582] And you got to protect that.

[583] And when things get stormy and windy, you want friends that kind of cup their hands over yours and help protect that.

[584] And when that flame gets really big, because you win the spelling B or you get the part in the play, you don't want friends that blow it out because they think your light's too bright.

[585] Like no light blower outers.

[586] We just can't do that.

[587] And so to me, that's kind of Freud and Freud.

[588] And the research on it is remarkable.

[589] Like in terms of connection, Monica, if you call me and say, oh my God, I went to the audition, I got the part.

[590] And, you know, we're going to start filming in two months.

[591] And I'm like, oh, my God.

[592] Oh, this is amazing.

[593] That is balm to connection.

[594] That is like that is the juice, the foundation of me sharing and delight with you.

[595] And tell me more.

[596] How long is the part?

[597] Where are you going to fill?

[598] I'm making up things.

[599] I don't know how that works.

[600] But Freud and Freud.

[601] And so it's certainly a parenting tenant.

[602] So, Renee, do you think that when someone has a pang of fear upon hearing good news about their friend that most generally you could postulate that if they're unhappy for that person's success, what it really probably says is I'm not confident in my position in your life.

[603] And when you have all these better options, I'm going to be less appealing and I'm going to get left behind.

[604] I think whether it's I'm going to get left behind, why aren't good things happening to me, are you going to get new friends, whatever the thought bubble is?

[605] Am I still going to be important?

[606] Whatever that is, the thought bubble is a question about enoughness.

[607] Yeah, yeah.

[608] This like scarcity of everything.

[609] Yeah, whether it's a fourth grader saying, guess what, I got the play and the fourth, you know, the fourth grade friend saying, well, it's a stupid play.

[610] That's me afraid you're going to hang out with all the theater kids now and not see me anymore.

[611] Yeah, yeah.

[612] Or I didn't get the part and I need to make myself feel better about that.

[613] Because I feel bad about myself.

[614] Yeah.

[615] I also think that Chaden Freud thing sometimes, I guess I've observed it with other comedians.

[616] It's really present with us comedians, which is like, there's a good deal of it.

[617] And when I really tried to think about what was really going on, there was this one comedian.

[618] who is hugely sensationalally popular and all the other comedians kind of rallied around hating this person.

[619] I thought about it so much because I worked with them and people wanted to know about them so much so often.

[620] And I thought, you know, I think what's really going on is that we don't believe in ourselves.

[621] We have all these fears that we're going to fail.

[622] And when we see someone else that we've observed as having similar talent as ours, going for it with belief in their self, that's the thing.

[623] They want to structure it or frame it and it's objectively bad comedy, but I don't think that's what's going on.

[624] It's like, well, fuck, I'm that good of a comedian.

[625] Why don't I have that confidence?

[626] Why don't I pitch a show to HBO like this person?

[627] I think that's what was really going on.

[628] Yes.

[629] I think seeing people, I'll go back to the cup tanned, seeing people with a really bright light and their ability to hold it and be happy about it and to, like you said, go for it, is a very painful mirror for people.

[630] Yeah, yeah.

[631] For myself included sometimes.

[632] And it's interesting because I have strata.

[633] So it's like, I'll watch Chappelle and I'll go, oh, yeah, he's William Shakespeare, he's Mark Twain.

[634] I'm not threatened by that because I don't think in any world I'm as talented as that.

[635] So, like, I haven't even assessed myself as being in competition with this person so I can just enjoy it.

[636] It just becomes a whole different paradigm if I think I can do what they can do.

[637] Okay.

[638] So what an amazing segue into comparison, because as it turns out, the reason why comparison is so fucking hard is, is it is stratified, like what you're saying.

[639] So I don't compare my yard on my street in Houston to the yards in Beverly Hills.

[640] I compare my yard to everyone on my street.

[641] And so comparison is this crush of be just like these people in my set, but be better than them.

[642] So be like everybody else, but better.

[643] Yeah.

[644] Don't get called out as being different.

[645] And then within the rules, find yourself in the alpha position at all.

[646] all times.

[647] That's it.

[648] Yeah.

[649] And that's hard for me because I can, I tell a story in the book where, like, one of the ways I work out is I swim laps.

[650] And if I just happen to be in a workout and I'm thinking and just doing my own grooving on, and I end up pushing off of the side at this, just sinking up and pushing off at the same time as anyone else, it's on.

[651] I fucking race them.

[652] Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[653] Yeah.

[654] Like, I just race them.

[655] It's funny, except a couple years ago, I was out of swimming for like three months.

[656] months with a hurt rotator cuff because the guy next to me was like a six foot four triathlete who was 25.

[657] It's like I hurt myself racing him.

[658] Like he lapped me. And I'll tell you the other day, someone pissed me off in traffic.

[659] And I'm right here at Kirby and 59.

[660] And we ended up next to each other.

[661] And I'm in like, I'm like in a mom wagon car.

[662] And I was like, back this, I can take him from the line.

[663] Okay.

[664] Okay.

[665] So good.

[666] A drag race ensued.

[667] Yeah.

[668] Brunay, do you know they say a perfect and brilliant screen?

[669] is one where each scene is telling the global story of the entire movie.

[670] Like, every single fractal of the movie is telling the exact same story.

[671] So you and that pool is a beautiful fractal of your whole existence.

[672] Like, that scene was on point for the whole story of Renee Brown.

[673] I love it.

[674] No, that is not my fractal.

[675] You know.

[676] It is.

[677] It is.

[678] I have the same one.

[679] It's not even like an illusion of victory meets me. It's just like there's so much primitive instinct just takes over.

[680] I've got to erase you.

[681] And this is what I learned about comparison from the research in the book is that, one, so I used to tell myself, stop comparing, stop comparing, stop comparing.

[682] As it turns out, if you want to minimize comparing, that's not the inflection point.

[683] Because clearly, from the research, to compare us to be human, that we are neurobiologically wired for comparison.

[684] Yes, it's survival.

[685] Survival, right.

[686] It goes back.

[687] If your neighbor's eating a humongous deer every night and you're eating a tiny rabbit, you might inquire what that person is doing in their hunting that you too could eat a deer at night.

[688] Or kill the person and eat their deer.

[689] So two things I learned is one, our biology drives us to compare, our neurobiology.

[690] Number two, the inflection point is in the midst of the comparison, we do have some choice.

[691] We do have some self -determination to say, I'm comparing.

[692] what do I choose to do with this data?

[693] Yeah.

[694] Like, do I choose to let this go or do I choose to behave based on this feeling?

[695] I'd imagine, too, like there's this great inclination for us to draw a verdict about it as opposed to just observing it.

[696] That's what I try to do.

[697] Like, oh, that's different.

[698] That doesn't necessarily mean I got to change it.

[699] And you would think that the social psychologists say there's upward comparison and downward comparison.

[700] So my pool story, upward comparison is this 25 -year -old triathlete.

[701] And then downward comparison is this woman who swims all the time, the same time I do, she's in her late 80s, and she uses a snorkel, and she swims a little bit, and she walks a little bit.

[702] Sure.

[703] But fucking A, I race her too.

[704] If we push off at the same time, oh, for sure.

[705] Get her.

[706] Get that bitch.

[707] Yeah, yeah.

[708] Oh, yeah, I take her.

[709] I take her down.

[710] I take her down.

[711] And sometimes I smirk.

[712] I just like, you know, like, oh, my God.

[713] What they say in the research is that it's not what you think.

[714] It's not like downward comparison makes you feel better and upward.

[715] It's not that.

[716] They both can have very negative outcomes.

[717] And so one time when I race this woman, she and I ended up in the locker at the same time.

[718] And she just looked at me and she goes, you okay, hon?

[719] Good for her.

[720] Oh, that's so south.

[721] That's so the south.

[722] Yeah.

[723] Yeah.

[724] She saw you.

[725] That nuclear.

[726] She saw me racing her.

[727] Yep.

[728] I don't do flip turns anymore because I swear to God, this is.

[729] embarrassing, but like ever since I turned like in my mid -40s, it's like a decade ago, it gives me vertigo to do like a flip turn.

[730] Like I just can't do it.

[731] So even when I was racing her, I would flip turn and like really fight water in my nose, dizzy, but I'm like, I'm going.

[732] I'm going.

[733] Like, yeah.

[734] That's like something's wrong with me, deeply, deeply wrong with me. Well, hold on.

[735] I want to know the actual data because I think this is going against what I think about comparison.

[736] One is I read this book, The Broken Ladder, which is tremendous I always recommend it.

[737] It's about income inequality, and it talks about culturally, some cultures are up -comparers and some are down -comparers.

[738] In the U .S., we're the great up -comparers, right?

[739] We're all going to be John D. Rockefeller.

[740] It's the American dream.

[741] That's what we do.

[742] Other countries are not that way.

[743] And there does seem to be some generalized uptick in happiness when you down -compare.

[744] But it comes with its own set, right, of potential problems, which are, I don't know that this is innate to alcoholics.

[745] We say it is, but I don't think it is.

[746] Like, I'm, I'm a, I'm, I'm a megalomaniac or I'm an inferior piece of shit.

[747] I have no middle ground, right?

[748] So if I'm up comparing, I'm a terrible piece of shit, and we already know that about myself.

[749] If I'm down comparing, now the megalomaniac ranches up, right?

[750] So it's like I recognize I'm swimming faster than this person.

[751] Then I start giving myself compliments.

[752] Well, that's because you're more dedicated to this other person.

[753] You have more stick with it to, you know, I start listing all the reasons that make me better than that person, which is also a terrible.

[754] I usually feel worse after I make those cases in my head of why I'm superior or inferior.

[755] And so I guess you can't have a comparison where you're not going to draw some conclusion or verdict that you're better or worse.

[756] And any time you start in an equation where the conclusions either you're better or worse, probably just a bad equation for a human to endeavor upon.

[757] God, I mean, this has emerged in my data for 20 years that people think there's a very far walk between I'm a worthless piece of shit and I am better than everyone else.

[758] People think that there's a huge distance there when really it is standing in the exact same place.

[759] because you are evaluating yourself against others, which is you're just standing in the exact same evaluative, comparative place.

[760] It's all narcissism, essentially.

[761] Which is interesting because even the paradox of what I just said, the paradox of what you said, which is megalomania or worthlessness, right?

[762] Even narcissism in itself, at least the way I define it in our research, is the shame -based fear of being ordinary.

[763] That must change culturally.

[764] We must be the highest on that spectrum in the U .S. I don't know the cross -cultural research on it.

[765] That's our definition.

[766] So our definition is the shame -based fear of being ordinary.

[767] What I do know about narcissism from the research, from primarily social psychology and psychiatry, and this is what feels so counterintuitive to people, that narcissism is underpinned by shame.

[768] more than any other personality disorder.

[769] Really?

[770] That's interesting.

[771] Yes.

[772] What is that line from the big book that talks about, we're not here to deflate an over -inflated sense of self -worth.

[773] We're here to find a sense of self -worth.

[774] Well, we're here, yeah, we're here to find self -esteem, right?

[775] Which comes through esteemable acts, not deciding you're better than your neighbor.

[776] Right.

[777] And so to me, people are like, wait, narcissism is highly correlated.

[778] with shame?

[779] It's shocking.

[780] It's not grandiosity, y 'all.

[781] It is like behaviors and thinking driven by the worst, most dangerous pit of worthlessness.

[782] Wow.

[783] I'm so glad you just said that because it's very hard for me to have compassion for narcissists.

[784] But when you explain that being the genesis of it, I do.

[785] I think it's very hard to have compassion for people who have been hurt when their choice to deal with that hurt is by hurting others.

[786] Yeah, it's real hard.

[787] Yeah.

[788] Yeah, I think it reminds me of this work that we do in our trainings where we talk about living big, what boundaries need to be in place for me to be in my integrity and generous towards you.

[789] And I don't know if it makes much sense to me because I've been in the program for so long, but this was over a decade ago when we first started doing research on compassion.

[790] I had this list, this stack of people that were so freaking compassionate.

[791] I mean, I'm literally like monks and nuns and like, I mean, I'm talking like really super compassionate people.

[792] And we were trying to figure out what variables do they share in common because that's what you do as a qualitative researcher.

[793] And my hypothesis was spirituality, but it wasn't at all.

[794] That's fact, some of them were agnostic, atheist, no. So I was like, okay, the most compassionate people that we've interviewed and we've, you know, we've crossed a million pieces of data at this point.

[795] Like, what do they have in common?

[796] And the number one variable was boundaries.

[797] Oh, my God.

[798] What?

[799] I know.

[800] That's very counterintuitive.

[801] It is because it's very hard for me to be compassionate and loving toward you and whatever story you hold about your hurt and your pain.

[802] You are being disrespectful of my boundaries.

[803] Well, also, I think I'm afraid to get involved with people because I don't think I trust my boundaries enough that I just know it'll get messy, so I stay the fuck out.

[804] Yeah.

[805] I mean, that's right.

[806] as opposed to saying, yeah, I'm going to be kind toward you, but here's what's okay and here's what's not okay.

[807] This shit's not going to fly anymore.

[808] But the reason why we go into so much judgment is sometimes the mere existence of people who have those narcissistic tendencies or those bullying tendencies, just their being is boundaryless.

[809] I mean, they cut you off on the road.

[810] They flip you off.

[811] Their truck is jacked up.

[812] I mean, I'm in Texas.

[813] Their truck is jacked up.

[814] My car could fit under their truck.

[815] But my hunch is that person was either raised by some, somebody who told them weakness was the mortal sin, or their society told them weakness was their mortal sin.

[816] They were weak.

[817] They got overcome by somebody, a dad, a sexual abuser, all these things.

[818] And now it's like, it's fucking existential.

[819] Driving down the road is existential to this person.

[820] Right.

[821] But what's hard is my understanding of the source of your pain does not keep me and my kids in my car safe.

[822] I know I know like one is objectively more dangerous to society granted that's obvious to me but I was really moved by Oprah's book the what happened to you book yeah and I think is you have children and I have children you become very aware of a couple things or I did one is they're born pretty perfect like you can just see that they're this thing awaiting trauma and how will that redirect them but I feel like in general they come out with a pretty open wonderful heart and then just things pile up and it changes them.

[823] Then secondly, when you have kids, you're aware of like, how much shit is fucking genetic?

[824] So even when you say your research of people who are generous with their time or priests or nuns, my second spends her whole day thinking about what the cashier at Target wants.

[825] If she goes to Target, we got to stop and buy flowers for the, and it's not even a person at Target that she knows.

[826] It's just anyone that's working at Target providing the service that she appreciates so much, they deserve flowers.

[827] She's genetically like that.

[828] My older one isn't.

[829] I'm not like that.

[830] Kristen is genetically like that.

[831] That's curious.

[832] That's interesting.

[833] I had this whole story about how my trauma has shaped everything I am.

[834] And so I'm frugal.

[835] Well, I grew up in great income scarcity.

[836] Guess what?

[837] My eight -year -old's fucking frugal is a motherfucker, and she's grown up in a house of rich people.

[838] So me pat myself on my back about how good I am with money.

[839] It's like, I think I probably was born that way.

[840] I believe with more and more data, I'm more and more convinced that they are born imperfect and wired for struggle and wired for strength.

[841] And I think a lot more is hardwired than we believe.

[842] And I think our job is that whatever gift we're given in our kids, we help them make their way with however they come to us.

[843] I can tell you this for sure.

[844] As a shame researcher, I think there's a small group of shame researchers and I think many of us believe for a very long time that the number one predictor variable for shame -proneness, meaning when you did something wrong instead of saying I did something wrong, you'd say, I am wrong.

[845] Many of us believe for a very long time that parenting was the number one predictor variable of that parenting style.

[846] And it is still a huge, huge variable.

[847] But I think some kids come more hardwired for shame -proneness.

[848] They're more likely...

[849] I mean, because what we're seeing now siblings raised pretty consistently with the same parents who some just opt very quickly to something's wrong with me. I'm bad.

[850] I did something where others are like, you know what?

[851] Stupid choice.

[852] I'm a good kid.

[853] Yeah, but I also will say, I think sometimes parents, when we look at these studies and we say like, oh, they grew up in the same household and parents treat kids differently.

[854] Amen.

[855] For sure.

[856] It's real.

[857] I mean, like even when the kids are like a few years apart.

[858] I see it.

[859] And I think it's smart.

[860] I think it's to parent.

[861] each kid the way that they need parenting.

[862] But, like, I think it's more complicated than, like, yeah, they grew up with the same parents because kids are different and get treated differently.

[863] I think you're making a really important nuance point.

[864] So I should be more careful and say that it's parenting style.

[865] So whether or not parents use shame as a discipline as how do parents talk to kids.

[866] So if you're my daughter, Monica, do I say to you, God, what were you thinking?

[867] you're so stupid as opposed to, Monica, what were you thinking?

[868] That was a really stupid choice.

[869] Do I separate you from your behaviors?

[870] Right.

[871] Which is a little bit different because I do think siblings are treated.

[872] I mean, first of all, we have way different parental reactions to the kids that are more like us.

[873] Mm -hmm.

[874] Exactly.

[875] I was just going to bring that up.

[876] Like, I can deal with our child that's very much like my wife, like Sven Gali, and she can deal with the kid that's like me like Spengali.

[877] It's because we've been practicing for six.

[878] 16 years on how to deal with each other.

[879] My overall view at this point is, like, you can basically raise your kids baseline to standard deviations with great parenting.

[880] Conversely, you can lower it about seven deviations with horrendous parenting.

[881] That's true.

[882] That's true.

[883] It's not like a one -to -one deal.

[884] Yeah.

[885] And I think the most persuasive thing that I've learned from the research around parenting, which sucks ass, I hate it, is really be the adult you want your children to grow up.

[886] be.

[887] Thank you.

[888] Yeah, I think it's all about modeling.

[889] Like the amount of thought people put into what they're telling their kids, fuck that.

[890] Be the person you want them to grow up to be and see how that works.

[891] Stay tuned for more armchair expert if you dare.

[892] It's really tricky because I'll give you an example.

[893] I interviewed this family and they were so devastated about their child getting caught cheating in a pretty serious cheating situation in high school.

[894] Yeah.

[895] could affect college.

[896] And then we were talking.

[897] And one of the things that they talked about that the child talked about was they say cheating's not okay.

[898] But like if my mom gets back too much change from the grocery store or this, they would never return it.

[899] They'd be like, hey, that's not my problem.

[900] The grocery store is making a ton of money.

[901] Yeah.

[902] Did you brag to your wife that you deducted the motor home off the taxes?

[903] Right.

[904] And we all know it's bullshit.

[905] Right.

[906] What did you say in front of that?

[907] What they observe you do?

[908] And I'll tell you another example.

[909] I have a 16 -year -old and a 22 -year -old, and so many parents that I watched as my daughter navigated high school, now my son's in high school, saying you're not allowed to drink, you're not allowed to drink and drive, and these parents have completely centered alcohol in their lives.

[910] And I remember getting a call for my daughter one day saying, Mom, you remember, you told me that if I ever had alcohol in the car or have ever gotten a car with someone drinking, that I would never drive a car owned by you?

[911] and I said, yeah, and she goes, A, I knew you were serious and B, what am I supposed to do because I'm getting a ride from a parent who's been drinking all through dinner?

[912] Yeah.

[913] And I said, you can't get in the car.

[914] She's like, Jesus, what am I supposed to say?

[915] Like, I'm not allowed to ride with you because you've been drinking too much and this person's your age.

[916] And I said, I'm sorry.

[917] That's a tough sit for a child, yeah.

[918] It is a tough sitch, but it is the sitch.

[919] Yeah.

[920] If you are every night swigging down red wine because it takes the edge off and, oh my God, let me get you.

[921] You know, it's five o 'clock somewhere.

[922] You know, every time you say, Mom, I'm going to take a sip.

[923] That's your M .O. That's a great impression of me. From about 2 p .m. on, Monica just starts staring at her watch.

[924] I'm teasing.

[925] You made the joke.

[926] I'm jumping out.

[927] That was my inflection point.

[928] Oh, no. That's where you got your booster.

[929] I just punched her in her booster.

[930] Don't punch in the booster, man. That's going to be my new threat to you.

[931] But, I mean, if that's your M .O. And then your high schoolers drinking, like, no shit.

[932] Yeah.

[933] I got to tell you, this just sounds like a brag session of what I think I do correctly, but I will just say this.

[934] I only bring it up because this is what I work through.

[935] So my daughter will be in the backseat, eight -year -old loves going fast, six -year -old hates it, six -year -old's in the backseat.

[936] And in the car, she'll say to me, Daddy, slow down.

[937] And what's on my tip of my tongue is I raced IMSA for two years.

[938] I raced motorcycles.

[939] I'm a host of top.

[940] Like, if anyone in the world is qualified to drive this car 10 miles and over the speed limit is me, that's what's on my way out of my mouth and the better angels have said to me I'm so proud of you for telling someone when you're scared that's been so hard for me to do because I don't want to look weak I'm so impressed but fuck I got to work through it before I say like I got to I want to defend myself I would never risk your life you can trust me above all people and it's like no this is awesome this six year old just told an adult to slow the fuck down and that's the main message here I want her to continue to do to do that.

[941] It's a big deal.

[942] And one day, if you compliment her on that, Dax, I promise you.

[943] One day, she's going to be in the back of someone else's car and another parent's going to be driving.

[944] And she's going to say, excuse me, I'm sorry.

[945] I'm scared about how fast you're driving.

[946] Yeah.

[947] Yeah.

[948] And that guy's not going to be an Emson champion.

[949] No, you're not.

[950] Definitely not.

[951] No. And maybe like, hey, dude, what's going on with your daughter?

[952] Like, policing me from the back seat.

[953] And you have to be like, good for her.

[954] Yeah.

[955] I'm proud of her.

[956] I was the kid not saying anything in the back seat going up a wrong way hill in my town of Milford in the backseat of a GTO going, well, we're going to die, is a 16 -year -old driving a 500 -horsepower car who's stoned, and I'm in the back, and I think I'll be weak if I say I'm scared.

[957] So I'm just going to die, literally.

[958] I mean, same.

[959] That's why now we'll go full circle back.

[960] Now that's why I say, no, more pressure, and I don't want to chat.

[961] Yeah.

[962] Yes.

[963] I just want to explore one bit of architecture in your book that I think is really cool.

[964] I don't think people have the tools, the language, to even start breaking down their human experience, and you give us like four categories, which I like.

[965] So biology, biography, behavior, and backstory.

[966] I just think if you could walk us through those, it would be fun for us to think about all the things that are impacting our human experience.

[967] Yeah, I mean, I think emotion is a combination of these four things.

[968] I think first and foremost, it is, it is biology.

[969] Like we call them feelings because emotion, they come up in our bodies first.

[970] And so we were super disembodied before the pandemic.

[971] I think we're even more.

[972] disembodied now.

[973] I think people are very cut off from their physical selves.

[974] So I think in order to get curious and do this interrogation that you're talking about, we have to understand that feelings come up in our bodies first.

[975] So what am I feeling?

[976] Wait, can we give an example that the one that I kind of police at myself is my breathing gets pretty specific.

[977] Kristen's great at pointing it out.

[978] I've had my friend Bradley's pointed out.

[979] Monica's pointed out.

[980] My breathing takes a real specific turn when I've entered into a zone where I'm like arguing out of fear or my position is one of I'm scared I can tell my chest is tighter and I take deeper breaths so I'm like that's a perfect example what are some other ones people I just like earmark in their head like oh yeah my cheeks are hot that's interesting generally my cheeks don't get hot when it's a trivial topic so I think one the most powerful ones to recognize in yourself as shame because we are very dangerous around other people, especially other people that have less power than us, our children, for teacher, students, employees.

[981] So one of the greatest hallmarks of shame resilience is knowing the physical symptoms of shame.

[982] So for me, when I go into shame, I know exactly what's happening physically.

[983] So time slows down.

[984] My mouth gets dry.

[985] My armpits tingle.

[986] And I go into a loop of what's happening.

[987] I just go into a constant loop.

[988] Yeah.

[989] What's interesting about the physical response to shame is that if I'm driving on 610 in Houston and it's pouring down rain and I slam on my brakes and I look up and this 18 wheeler in front of me is jackknifing, that is exactly the same response that I'll have in my body.

[990] So time will slow down.

[991] My mouth will go dry.

[992] So a lot of our responses to shame are very similar to trauma.

[993] But because I know my physical symptomology of shame, I go immediately into, this is what I say out loud.

[994] I mean, I've said it in front of my dean.

[995] I've said it in front of my colleagues in front of Steve and the kids.

[996] Pain, pain, pain, pain, pain, pain, don't talk, text or type.

[997] Don't talk text or type.

[998] Don't talk text or type.

[999] Because I know in order - This is pause when agitated.

[1000] This means that I know it's going to be 15 minutes before I'm fit for human consumption and I'm probably going to have to cry before I get back on my emotional feet.

[1001] So shame is a really important one to know.

[1002] Can I ask you, personally, not to get too personal, but I think I've under -explored shame, weirdly.

[1003] What are some of the cornerstones of your shame?

[1004] So it's one of four self -conscious affects.

[1005] They call them the four -horsement, like shame, guilt, humiliation, and embarrassment.

[1006] And so the ones that we confuse the most are shame and guilt.

[1007] So the difference between shame and guilt, I am bad, and I did something bad.

[1008] Shame is a focus on self.

[1009] Guilt is a focus on behavior.

[1010] So really interesting article from a, this is from a peer -reviewed journal.

[1011] You go out Thursday night, you get so loaded that Friday morning you miss a really important meeting at work.

[1012] We evaluate your proneness to shame by how you talk to yourself.

[1013] There's an instrument for doing that.

[1014] So if the next morning your self -talk is, God, I'm an idiot, I'm such an asshole, I'm such a loser, that's shame.

[1015] There's another way to talk to yourself.

[1016] I know.

[1017] That's guilt -proneness.

[1018] That was a stupid thing to do.

[1019] I can't believe I did that.

[1020] That sounds much better.

[1021] Right.

[1022] And so really powerful because shame, like track this, this is insane.

[1023] Shame is highly correlated with addiction, depression, aggression, violence, bullying, eating disorders, suicide.

[1024] That's not surprising.

[1025] What's surprising actually is that guilt is inversely correlated with those things, meaning the better you can regulate the way you talk to yourself and separate self from behaviors.

[1026] So people who, who have high levels of guilt -proneness have lower levels of addiction and some of these outcomes than the general population.

[1027] Guilt is a very socially adaptive emotion.

[1028] It's basically the experience of cognitive dissonance.

[1029] I've engaged in a behavior or failed to do something that aligns with my values, so I'm experiencing psychological discomfort.

[1030] And that is a moment of potential growth because you go, okay, yeah.

[1031] Yes.

[1032] Whereas shame is like further down the shithole, I go.

[1033] And that's why all of the research that's coming out right now around like vaccine compliance shows that shame is completely ineffective.

[1034] Because what shame causes, I mean, shame is by definition the extremely painful experience or belief that we are unworthy of love, belonging, and connection because of something we've done or failed to do.

[1035] Unloavability.

[1036] Yeah.

[1037] This is my big criticism of.

[1038] our side of the political spectrum, which is that we deal number one in shame.

[1039] Like, you want to address global warming, which is a horrendous issue.

[1040] We need to address it.

[1041] The left's version is you're a greedy piece of shit for driving this car and you're a monster and you're killing the planet.

[1042] I don't see that as the most productive approach.

[1043] No. It makes everyone feel worse, more defensive, more less than, more.

[1044] You're elite.

[1045] Fine, I'm a piece of shit.

[1046] Watch what a piece of shit does, motherfucker.

[1047] Like, if your big attack on me is I'm a piece of shit, let me show you.

[1048] Yeah.

[1049] And there's no evidence.

[1050] at all that shows that shame is a compass for moral behavior.

[1051] What happens in shame is we double down, we rationalize, we blame, we hit back.

[1052] Well, it's this weird paradox, right?

[1053] We actually do believe all the accusations.

[1054] We do believe we're a bottomless, worthless pile of shit.

[1055] But it's existential if we announce that out loud.

[1056] We think it is.

[1057] So weirdly, we then defend ourselves and act like we're not that in this aggressive manner, even though that's the exact thing we actually think about ourselves.

[1058] God, that is so fucking right.

[1059] And the thing is, shame will never be a social justice tool because shame is a tool of oppression.

[1060] It's like, how do we do it with pointing out missteps and guilt, which people should experience, and how do we keep it out of the shame zone?

[1061] Because it's just not productive.

[1062] So there's an answer because the antidote to shame is empathy.

[1063] And so shame can't survive empathy.

[1064] So if you put shame in a petri dish, it needs three things to grow exponentially.

[1065] Silence, judgment, and secrecy.

[1066] If you give it those things, it will grow into every corner and crevice of your life.

[1067] But if you douse shame with empathy, you've created a hostile environment for shame.

[1068] Shame cannot survive empathy because shame can't survive being spoken.

[1069] Because if I call you Monica and go, Jesus, do you have a second?

[1070] I'm in the biggest shame shitstorm.

[1071] you're not going to believe what happened at work.

[1072] I was pissed off.

[1073] I said this.

[1074] I didn't think about how it was going to sound.

[1075] It landed, you know, offended people.

[1076] It was so terrible.

[1077] And you respond with empathy.

[1078] Like, you know what?

[1079] Pock, that's hard.

[1080] And you're not alone.

[1081] Shame only works if it can convince you that you're alone, which is why it loves secrecy and silence.

[1082] So I think what we're missing is a combination of empathy and accountability.

[1083] Right.

[1084] suck at accountability so bad.

[1085] Can I suggest that's a product of the system?

[1086] But everything is so binary and permanently cancelable that it doesn't leave a whole lot of safe light to walk out into.

[1087] Like an AA meaning is a sacred thing where it's like someone can say they hit their kid.

[1088] And I don't want anyone to hit their fucking kid.

[1089] And yet I want there to be a place where if someone hits their kid, they can own it, that we can explore it.

[1090] We can figure out how to prevent that from happening again.

[1091] But if the stakes in society are I hit my kid, oh, you're a child abuse.

[1092] or goodbye, sign our motherfucker, there's nowhere to go after that.

[1093] And there's no safe place to even explore that.

[1094] I think it's hard because I think it reminds me of the big question about intention versus impact.

[1095] I think what we're lacking is accountability.

[1096] I think we're lacking someone saying what you said was not okay.

[1097] Regardless of the intention, this was the impact.

[1098] And you need to apologize, own it, and talk about how it's going to change.

[1099] This is such a minute example, but like probably a year ago or something, I, interviewed the Duplas brothers, and I said something about Mark Duplas being my spirit animal.

[1100] And then within like 15 seconds, I had 50 comments about how that was appropriation.

[1101] It was just really terrible that it was very offensive to indigenous people.

[1102] And I was like, I didn't even think about it.

[1103] Like, I didn't even know.

[1104] And so my team was like, shit, let's pull it down.

[1105] Let's pull it down.

[1106] I was like, no, leave it up.

[1107] Let me change it.

[1108] And then just let me write a note that says, I didn't know.

[1109] I'm not here to be right or defend being right.

[1110] I'm here to get it right.

[1111] And I apologize that on my way to learning, I had to hurt people in that process.

[1112] And I left it up.

[1113] It's like, I think about the way I was raised.

[1114] Like, I was watching Greece with my kids.

[1115] And my daughter was like...

[1116] Oh my God, the song?

[1117] Yeah, it was like, did they just say, did she put up a fight?

[1118] Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

[1119] I was maybe 12 when I saw it.

[1120] And I saw it 20 times in a theater, saved up every babysitting.

[1121] and they went back and started smoking at 13.

[1122] There you go, baby.

[1123] Because to get him, she started smoking.

[1124] Yeah.

[1125] And I started smoking at 13 and then smoked for 17 years.

[1126] I guess the thing is that if you saw Greece and you thought, man, this is the way I was raised, this is the way everyone was talking about it.

[1127] Nothing from the fucking 80s has aged well.

[1128] It's awful of racism and sexism and homophobia.

[1129] And so then maybe one of the things we say to ourselves is, while the system's not broken, it was built this way.

[1130] And the rage we see from black people, from indigenous people, from women is fucking real.

[1131] And every day I'm going to do something to make it better, including owning my part.

[1132] But I think one of the problems in the culture today is, and I think I write about this in Atlas, is that when people tell their stories, we don't believe them if they don't fit our lived experience.

[1133] Yeah.

[1134] We're so trapped.

[1135] We're so trapped in our worldview.

[1136] Yeah.

[1137] But you know, Bray, I think you're at the crux of something that could be really, really, and I never say shit like this because I'm a pessimist.

[1138] But you're at the crux of something that could really take the racial issue to another zone, which is I actually think this percentage, whatever it is, of white Americans, let's say it's 30 % who literally think everyone's coming for the white person.

[1139] They're coming for the white male.

[1140] They are.

[1141] pushing back that we're a racist nation, all these things, I think the distinction is that they in their mind are viewing it like they're being asked to take on shame.

[1142] I think they're being protective of taking on shame, perhaps.

[1143] I think it's a huge part of it.

[1144] Yeah, like if it's about guilt, which is like everyone in this country should feel some guilt about the way the country came to be.

[1145] It's not a great story.

[1146] Yes.

[1147] But I'm not asking you to say, I'm a white person, And so therefore, I'm a piece of shit who loves to oppress people.

[1148] I think people are perceiving the criticism or the exploration of the history as being someone desiring to label white people as shameless oppressors, which is a shame thing.

[1149] It's not a guilt thing.

[1150] I mean, I think I talk about this in the second TED talk I did, where I am just like, the shame around privilege is one of the biggest barriers to healing great.

[1151] racism.

[1152] Yes.

[1153] It's people going, I'm not a terrible racist.

[1154] It's like, hey, hold on, no one's calling you a terrible racist.

[1155] We're saying that people go to prison if they're black at four times of the rate as the white people tried for the same crime.

[1156] That's what we're saying.

[1157] The system we have of jurisprudence is very disproportionately punishing some group of this country.

[1158] But I do think there's a white fragility around, look, if you're in and willing to really dig into the issue of white supremacy, as long as you don't come out of it feeling personally ashamed.

[1159] I'm okay with that.

[1160] But if you're like, I'm not going to talk about this if I'm made to feel uncomfortable.

[1161] Yeah, then fuck you.

[1162] I think it's twofold.

[1163] I think it's one.

[1164] Lean to discomfort of acknowledging white supremacy and owning how it serves and benefits white people.

[1165] I think that's an important part.

[1166] Yeah.

[1167] And then doing something, same is true with, I think the patriarchy, doing something every day to dismantle it, whether it's teaching your daughters this, whether it's making amends, whatever it is, I think the thing is that, and I really do believe this, if we're not actively dismantling the systems that privilege us, then we're supporting them.

[1168] I wanted to carve out like a one -on -one meeting for you and I because we find ourselves in similar situations and I want to know how you navigate them because I do admire you.

[1169] I look at you and I'm like, well, you're a click away if you decided at any moment to be a motivational speaker.

[1170] You're an entrepreneur.

[1171] I'm an entrepreneur.

[1172] There's a lot of crossroads when you're in your seat and in my seat.

[1173] And I feel like the ethical challenges have increased, whereas maybe my fantasy of it was that they were going to decrease.

[1174] They've actually amplified the kind of ethical dilemmas that are put on your plate all the time.

[1175] So it's like, how do we navigate it?

[1176] Like, you have a voice that so many women in particular really, really relate to.

[1177] So how does your ego navigate?

[1178] Like, what's good entrepreneurially?

[1179] What is a good message I believe in?

[1180] Where is my ego now off to the races?

[1181] How do I police myself?

[1182] It's not the most obvious roadmap, is it?

[1183] No, there are days when I can scramble, looking for a blueprint or a roadmap, like who's done this already?

[1184] Like, what do I do?

[1185] And I can feel really lonely in it.

[1186] We ask one question for every opportunity that comes across my desk.

[1187] And there are a ton of shiny, bright, fun opportunities.

[1188] And it always is, does it serve the research?

[1189] Does it serve the work?

[1190] And so I think you got into, and this is maybe an ego thing, but maybe it is.

[1191] You can tell me what you think.

[1192] And Monica, I'd like your perspective as well.

[1193] But I've often called a motivational speaker or, especially in the British press, like guru to the stars.

[1194] And if I were a man, yeah, yeah.

[1195] If I were a man, I'd be called a social scientist.

[1196] And so I have a PhD.

[1197] I teach it to universities.

[1198] And I don't put things into the world that are not driven by data.

[1199] And so I don't want to be a motivational speaker, and I don't want to be an inspirational person either, because when I talk about reproductive rights, or I talk about my feelings on immigration, or I talk about dehumanization and my support for Black Lives Matter, an entire drove of white women come at me and say, just shut up, just shut the fuck up, and keep inspiring me. Oh, okay.

[1200] Then I'm like, then that's not who I am.

[1201] Like, I'm a social worker.

[1202] I have a bachelor's, master's, and Ph .D. and social work.

[1203] Like, our classes are like, oppression, 101, poverty, and racism, 204.

[1204] Like, that's who I am.

[1205] And so, for me, all of the ethical questions come down to really, from podcast guests, to streaming service opportunities, to book opportunities.

[1206] It all comes down to, does it serve the research?

[1207] does it serve the work?

[1208] And I have to tell you that I'm so grateful.

[1209] I really came up with that with Murdoch McKinnon, who I've worked with for 10 years now.

[1210] And it's such, I don't want to say foolproof, but it's, as filters go, it's 95%.

[1211] A good North Star.

[1212] Yeah.

[1213] And I will share something else with you that I was working with a business coach recently.

[1214] And it was the first time I ever worked with him.

[1215] We've only had one conversation.

[1216] And it was life -changing to me because we were talking about how the pool of opportunities is expanding for me right now.

[1217] And he said, I want you to ask yourself this question.

[1218] What do you want to be held accountable for?

[1219] I looked at everything the other way.

[1220] Like, what could it be?

[1221] It could be amazing.

[1222] It could be this.

[1223] We could do this.

[1224] And then if I say, what do I want to be held accountable for?

[1225] Fucking very little right now.

[1226] Right.

[1227] Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

[1228] I want to be accountable for being at every one of my son's water polo games.

[1229] I want to be accountable for family dinners five days a week.

[1230] Like, I got a different jam happening right now.

[1231] Just to be totally honest, like I was like, shit, can I do a podcast in the open market or on Spotify with ads?

[1232] Right.

[1233] Well, I was going to say the first integrity pressure test is like your ads.

[1234] That's like the first thing that comes your way.

[1235] And it's like I personally, I'm pretty broad.

[1236] I mean, look, I fucking eat at McDonald's.

[1237] every now and then.

[1238] So I do McDonald's.

[1239] Some people are pissed about that, whatever.

[1240] I don't do any financial services for people who have, like, bad credit.

[1241] Those scare me. But it's funny because it started with a really ironclad thing and then it's probably gotten a little looser, yet I still have some that I just won't touch.

[1242] I don't have any practice in a glut of opportunity.

[1243] I have 26 years of please hire me for a movie and I'll act in it and I'll be dependable.

[1244] I don't have, there's too many opportunities.

[1245] Which ones should I pick?

[1246] Which ones are for ego, wow, I have to evaluate what my definition of success is, or I won't know if I've gotten there.

[1247] I've never even thought to do that.

[1248] Fighting the paradigm that I was born into, which is like, you've got to get as much as humanly possible.

[1249] That's just what you do.

[1250] What is enough?

[1251] I never even thought I could, I'd be in a position to wonder what is enough.

[1252] It's just all very interesting.

[1253] I think the shift, I mean, I'm with you.

[1254] And I can tell you that to be just really honest, again, I don't talk about this very often.

[1255] I don't know that I ever have.

[1256] Super lonely, super scary, super hard.

[1257] I can still go to the place where if I don't say yes to everything, people are going to stop asking.

[1258] Yeah.

[1259] But can I just say really quick?

[1260] This sounds like a really lofty 1 % conversation, but at the same time, like Monica has had this whole battle for the last three years of love watching her go through it.

[1261] It's like she used to do a lot of commercials.

[1262] She's great at them.

[1263] She books them all the time.

[1264] She now has this.

[1265] There's a fucking audition in Santa Monica.

[1266] That's a four -hour, commitment to go drive over there.

[1267] She has this great job.

[1268] If she doesn't go, is she being ungrateful?

[1269] Are they going to take away all opportunities?

[1270] Like, this game we play with ourselves, I think, with our real value and whether we deserve opportunity, I think it's pretty ubiquitous.

[1271] I don't think it's unique to like our situation, even though it feels unique.

[1272] No, we're talking about it because with our jobs, but this is with everybody's job.

[1273] This is about self -worth and discernment.

[1274] And I knew how to be scared and I knew how to be go, go, go, go, go.

[1275] In fact, when I say the serenity prayer, I always say, God grant me the serenity, accept the things I cannot change, the courage to change the things I can, and give me the wisdom and grace and the gift of discernment to know the difference.

[1276] Because I don't have discerning skills.

[1277] I have fight skills.

[1278] Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

[1279] Survival skills.

[1280] Yeah, I have, how do I make this work?

[1281] And so I do think some of my friends that are the most burnt out and are people who have no discernment skills around volunteering, you know?

[1282] Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

[1283] Yeah, the world's on fire, no shit.

[1284] But at some point, now your family and your house is on fire because you're not discerning.

[1285] So I think discernment is you have to have the question like I have.

[1286] I have two now.

[1287] What serves the research and the work?

[1288] And what do I ultimately want to be held accountable for?

[1289] I think I need to identify probably what's the thing about this that's bigger than me. Yes, you do.

[1290] Yeah, like I got to figure out like, what I'm in service to other than myself, yeah.

[1291] I feel like I have a vague understanding of it, but I think I could do better to really isolate what it is I'm doing it for.

[1292] And it's about purpose.

[1293] Like let's say, like let's say you say to yourself, what am I just making something up?

[1294] Like if I'm Dax, one of my purpose is to bravely say the unsaid, even when it's fucking uncomfortable.

[1295] And then you have three offers on the table.

[1296] and one of them is kind of fun, but there's no discomfort there, but one of them is an opportunity to have long -form conversations to delve into hard things.

[1297] You know, it makes a difference when you understand the purpose.

[1298] Like, what is it that you can do, and I believe this for everyone, what is it that you can do or Monica, you can do, that is just rarely and uniquely a gift.

[1299] And the hard thing is we are so bad at recognizing those things because they're usually fairly easy for us.

[1300] So we discount the value of them.

[1301] Yes, yes, yes.

[1302] Oh, that's great.

[1303] There's an epidemic among comedians.

[1304] I've watched this where they reach this unparalleled successes, comedians.

[1305] And then they have this fraudulent sense that they didn't earn that because they're just being who they've always been.

[1306] And so then they get hyper focused on like, well, an Academy Award is work.

[1307] Me crying is work.

[1308] Like, I'm going to go do something that's very hard for me and unconstitutional.

[1309] for me to prove I deserve the outcome of it is very tricky and it's like it is go ahead and do that it's okay that the thing you do brilliantly comes easy to you you don't need to feel guilt about that i mean it is and i can tell you that we're so bad at it and the thing that's going to change my life or help me or heal me or bring me joy is when you're in your power doing that thing that comes so maybe not naturally but that is that rare thing that only you can pull off Oh, well, Brene, I fucking love you so much.

[1310] I always look forward to either being on yours or you being on here and we'll do it a hundred more times, I hope.

[1311] You're just wonderful.

[1312] I'm coming to the garage apartment at some point in real life.

[1313] You have to, yeah.

[1314] Yes, yes.

[1315] Yeah, I'd love to.

[1316] Yeah, it'll be explosive.

[1317] Atlas of the Heart, Bray Brown, you're the greatest.

[1318] I wouldn't vote for many deities, but if I had to at gunpoint to save humanity, I might, I might give it to you.

[1319] Don't do it.

[1320] Don't let them force you into it.

[1321] to it.

[1322] It's a bad move.

[1323] Thank y 'all so much.

[1324] I really always appreciate our conversations.

[1325] And thank you for all the time and all the time in love.

[1326] And now my favorite part of the show, the fact check with my soulmate, Monica Badman.

[1327] Do you think if we would have started an episode with you sneezing and me screaming, bless you at the same time, people would have swerve their car?

[1328] Maybe.

[1329] I mean, it would have been a pop out for sure.

[1330] Big time.

[1331] Yeah.

[1332] It would have been the end of the show.

[1333] Good afternoon.

[1334] Good afternoon and good evening to you.

[1335] The sun is just about to set here in Los Angeles.

[1336] It is.

[1337] It's on its way out.

[1338] We've had a busy day.

[1339] We've been working hard and it's been fun.

[1340] And we just got back from our West Coast tour, which was so fun.

[1341] What a fucking blast.

[1342] We had some big surprises.

[1343] I mean, there was a reveal on social media.

[1344] Oh, there was.

[1345] Not on our side, on the guest side.

[1346] Yeah.

[1347] Oh, I can't even.

[1348] You know, I haven't even looked.

[1349] at it.

[1350] You showed it to me or Rob showed it to me?

[1351] Oh, I showed you what he posted.

[1352] Yeah, yeah.

[1353] And I haven't allowed myself to go look at it.

[1354] Oh, wow.

[1355] I don't know why.

[1356] Oh, it's probably gone because it was a story.

[1357] Oh, it was a story.

[1358] Does anyone do a screenshot of it?

[1359] Oh, God, it's gone forever.

[1360] It's going to look.

[1361] See, this is a life lesson.

[1362] Just, no, but what could be.

[1363] You know, I'm always trying to make morals and fables.

[1364] You are.

[1365] I know.

[1366] Speaking of one of my stories.

[1367] Yeah.

[1368] This is a tie -in to Brene because the beginning of the episode we talk about massages.

[1369] Well, we talk about like telling the person whether or not you want more or less pressure.

[1370] Which reminded me so I went to Callie's Bachelorette.

[1371] Uh -huh.

[1372] It was in Ohio.

[1373] And I had the most sensual massage of my life.

[1374] This is so thrilling.

[1375] I'm not going to reveal this person's name.

[1376] So I was at the pool and then it was time to go and I had to go straight to the can I ask how many wines you had had I'm just curious what your buzz there was oh okay yeah it was the morning it was like 1130 I assumed it was a late afternoon massage okay it was 1130 no wine but we were at the pool and so I had to scurry over and I realized I was in my bathing suit so I couldn't wear underwear uh -huh and I normally do and this is a whole thing I was shocked to hear this but continue you were because you never wear underwear.

[1377] Fuck, no. They got to rub my hips and shit.

[1378] Like, they got to get my butt cheeks to loosen up that low back the neck.

[1379] Well, I'm wearing a thong.

[1380] Well, that's true.

[1381] But also, there's, like, your thong's resting right where I want those fingers on my upper hips.

[1382] So what are they rolling that down and then rolling it up?

[1383] No, no, they can't roll.

[1384] They're just pushing on the thong, and then your fucking thong's all oily.

[1385] This, Monica, ditch the undies.

[1386] Well, now I'm going to because, so I couldn't wear them.

[1387] And I was like, all right.

[1388] Well, I guess it's fine.

[1389] Some people don't wear underwear and it's fine.

[1390] Mostly.

[1391] And then it started.

[1392] Well, it was a man, too.

[1393] It was a male masseuse.

[1394] Oh, I guess I should have said that.

[1395] Yeah, it was a male masseuse.

[1396] He noticed I wasn't wearing underwear.

[1397] And he thought it was a sign.

[1398] Oh, I don't think so.

[1399] And he went for it.

[1400] It was so sensual.

[1401] Oh, my God.

[1402] And he got close to my parts.

[1403] Oh, my God.

[1404] Yes.

[1405] And we had a pretty fun follow -up.

[1406] So I was asking you, like, in your mind, while this was happening where you caught between like okay now that he's close that whole area is kind of online yeah and then and then you're like well would I want it to go there sure this is what I asked you yeah and I had that thought right like if a finger slipped in yeah like would I like it but then I was like well I wouldn't like it because he he has to ask but if he asked like what would I say yeah yeah would you have said yes I don't know I just I don't know I think so I have a friend of a friend who that happened to it was a woman getting a massage by a man by a man and a finger slipped in no no he asked she made like a noise when he went around the thigh and he was and he was like 70 years old oh did she say yes she said yes oh wow good for her and him and he fingered her probably brought her to climax yep yeah but guy oh he's 70 and he's been massageing people for 50 years and He knows the signal.

[1407] And then he asks, listen, I'm not saying any masseuse should ask a woman.

[1408] Let's be clear.

[1409] I don't know that masseuses should be asking women if they want to be pleasure.

[1410] No. But in this case, where everyone seems like they loved it, I will say this person probably has a tremendous amount of experience with this.

[1411] You know, I almost booked my mother this massage, and I read about it in the New York Times.

[1412] I want to say it was New York Times.

[1413] There's a masseuse there and you go, and the man gives the women a massage and then pleases them sexually with his hands.

[1414] and it's a kind of known thing.

[1415] And I was going to send my mom there when she was recently widowed.

[1416] I thought she might enjoy that.

[1417] Sure.

[1418] I mean, that seems like if everyone knows what they're getting into, then yes, that's a different thing.

[1419] But to have it sprung on you is scary because you want to enjoy it but also not feel like uncomfortable.

[1420] Well, what I was pointing out to you is that, okay, so as a man, when that happens, like the hand gets real high up the upper upper.

[1421] her thigh.

[1422] You might even feel it grays across your testicles or your penis.

[1423] Now that area's all woken up.

[1424] Now as a guy, we don't have the fear of being overpowered.

[1425] Right.

[1426] Um, or I should speak for myself.

[1427] I don't.

[1428] So it's a much different scenario.

[1429] Yes.

[1430] But anyway, so he was massaging me. He had great hands.

[1431] Very strong.

[1432] Really incredible massage.

[1433] Oh, my God.

[1434] And you want to go back.

[1435] Yeah, of course.

[1436] I'm going to.

[1437] And this time will you be more open to?

[1438] No. I don't, I want.

[1439] You want to be on the brink of that.

[1440] You want to just, you want it to get teased.

[1441] Yeah.

[1442] So at one point, he was massaging my chest.

[1443] Oh, wow.

[1444] But like the top part of my chest.

[1445] And I kept thinking like, is the cheat below my nipples?

[1446] Like I can't tell.

[1447] Oh, wow.

[1448] Or is it like halfway?

[1449] Is, are my nipples exposed?

[1450] Oh, my gosh.

[1451] That's basically what I kept thinking in my head.

[1452] But then I was like, don't think that.

[1453] Like, just be, you know, just enjoy it.

[1454] Uh -huh.

[1455] And then when he left, I looked.

[1456] I, like, immediately looked down at my chest.

[1457] So then I looked and the top of my nipples were exposed.

[1458] Yes.

[1459] Just the very top.

[1460] The ariolas or the nipples?

[1461] Oh, I'm sorry.

[1462] I'm sorry.

[1463] The arioles.

[1464] Okay, that's a lot more understandable.

[1465] It's not for me. Nipples were out.

[1466] I guess.

[1467] I mean, for me, that whole area.

[1468] is the private very private yeah yes but i'm just saying in life you regularly will catch an ariola at the beach you never see a nipple out yeah you know what i'm saying like bathing suits are such that sometimes an ariola's just a hint of it is out okay and you're just kind of used to that a lot more than i've never been at the beach except unless it was a nude one where nipples were out of the bathing suits okay that's interesting i mean i i i tend to think of it all as one thing Anywho, so a little bit of, you're right, Ariola was exposed.

[1469] Oh, my God, this lucky dog, good for him.

[1470] Yeah, he enjoyed himself, and so did I. It was mutually beneficial.

[1471] Everyone won.

[1472] Do you remember my massage I told you about?

[1473] Oh, during the live shows.

[1474] Oh, yeah.

[1475] I had a massage, also an incredible massage.

[1476] And this woman was from Mongolia.

[1477] Her children were raised here, and they both done very well for themselves.

[1478] So it was like a really wonderful story.

[1479] Yeah.

[1480] But what was great is when we introduced ourselves to one another.

[1481] And I said, I'm daxed.

[1482] And she said, yes, Dax Shepherd.

[1483] She knew me. But then it became pretty clear over the next 10 minutes that she actually thought I was John Krasinski.

[1484] Right.

[1485] Which was kind of fun.

[1486] And I totally get it.

[1487] And I even said to her like, yeah, we're both lanky, goofy white dudes with big noses, like easy mix up.

[1488] But then it evolved into us talking about who was beautiful and who wasn't.

[1489] Because I was saying Tom Brady's so beautiful.

[1490] she didn't agree with that.

[1491] And then we were trying to, or not we, but she was trying to remember the name of the most attractive actress.

[1492] And in trying to remember that name, she was telling me that she often works with an older Latino actor.

[1493] I started going through some older Latino.

[1494] Well, first I start with Antonio Banderas.

[1495] No, he's older than that.

[1496] Lou Diamond Phillips.

[1497] I'm going through all these folks.

[1498] And about 40 minutes of this, it occurs to me, she's talking about Robert De Niro.

[1499] So I say Robert De Niro and she says, yes, Robert De Niro.

[1500] I said, well, he is Italian.

[1501] He's not Latino.

[1502] But also, she's massaged him?

[1503] No, this is just who she thinks is beautiful.

[1504] Oh.

[1505] Which she thinks Sharon Stone is beautiful.

[1506] I'm going to cut to the end.

[1507] Okay.

[1508] Yeah.

[1509] It was 80 minutes of figuring out that we were, she was trying to remember Sharon Stone.

[1510] Uh, and then one of the clues was that she often works with this older Latino actor.

[1511] Oh, that Sharon Stone works.

[1512] It sounded like she was saying.

[1513] she worked with.

[1514] The ideal lady for her visually is Sharon Stone.

[1515] She couldn't remember her name, but she did remember she often works with an older Latino actor.

[1516] Yes, okay.

[1517] I went through all the older Latino actors, no bingo.

[1518] Somehow I figured out it was Robert De Niro.

[1519] I explained to her he's Italian.

[1520] Most of the massage was this kind of breadcrown.

[1521] Scavenger hunt.

[1522] Thank you.

[1523] That's the exact word I'm looking for until we landed.

[1524] I can't I was so, like when Robert De Niro was the older Latino actor.

[1525] It was just, it was wonderful.

[1526] I wished I hadn't been alone in that situation, so I could have shared the experience with somebody.

[1527] Sure.

[1528] Does Sharon Stone and Robert Deere work together a lot?

[1529] They did casino together.

[1530] Oh, okay.

[1531] And they may have done another thing I'm not thinking of, but that's primarily what she was thinking of was casino.

[1532] And then she also thought that his sidekick, who's Joe Pesci in all the movies, she thought that was Danny DeVito.

[1533] Oh.

[1534] So the older Latino actors often in movies.

[1535] with Schwarzenegger's twin.

[1536] Oh, my.

[1537] Wow.

[1538] So I was like, okay, that's Danny DeVito.

[1539] Yep, Danny DeVito.

[1540] So now I'm like thinking of who, what older Latino, Danny DeVio?

[1541] It was something else.

[1542] Wow.

[1543] So you thought you might have like a climax and I thought we might never find out who the most attractive woman in the world is according to this woman.

[1544] I'm glad you found out.

[1545] Another event happened where somebody recognized you and I was with you at Taco Oh, my fucking God.

[1546] Well, three people, ultimately.

[1547] Well, three people and no people.

[1548] Yes.

[1549] This was the most chaotic situation.

[1550] Go ahead.

[1551] No, you tell it.

[1552] We went to the airport.

[1553] I was starving.

[1554] We got off at an exit to fill it up before we returned the rental car.

[1555] Turns out the flight was delayed.

[1556] Wabiwob had updated us.

[1557] By God, there was a Taco Bell.

[1558] My first thought was, shit, did they serve tacos in the morning?

[1559] It was nine, nine.

[1560] Yeah.

[1561] Nine in the morning.

[1562] We're running on almost no sleep from the night before.

[1563] Yes.

[1564] And so we pull up to the drive -thru and I say, hey, do you guys serve tacos in the morning?

[1565] And the guy said, for you, we do.

[1566] Yep.

[1567] And it was a really great delivery.

[1568] The guy was really, really funny.

[1569] And then he proceeded to be really funny.

[1570] He was making lemonade out of lemon.

[1571] Yes, he was performing and he was doing an awesome job.

[1572] So by the time we pulled up, we were quite excited to meet this guy.

[1573] Yes.

[1574] We pull up.

[1575] He sees me. he immediately gets very pumped first he says you look like someone famous well and then he was holding my credit card or i handed him my credit card to pay you said this guy yep and he said yeah this is so cool this is so cool he was really excited yep and he's seen all of my movies at that point and that's fine this is lovely uh he asked me to sign something and in doing that i write to i get his name and I write um get your ass to hollywood or something you know told him how funny he is and stuff and then I sign my name and then he he said will you write your name on this that was our first like hmm I said oh no I signed at the bottom oh you just kept saying yeah but can you write your name and you're like well I signed it right and then we realized oh he doesn't know my name yep and he wants to remember my name yeah but he was just holding my credit card so he did just know my name like four minutes beforehand.

[1576] And now his coworkers get hip to this situation.

[1577] So they approach.

[1578] She kind of was over his shoulder and she said, oh, from the back, you're married to the sloth girl.

[1579] I was like, that's interesting.

[1580] She knows the sloth video, but she doesn't know the name Kristen Bell.

[1581] I'm always assuming no one's going to know my name, but that kind of took us aback.

[1582] Sure.

[1583] She knew about the sloth video.

[1584] She did not know the name Christian Bell.

[1585] So now they're trying to figure out her name.

[1586] She's trying to figure out my name again.

[1587] And now the first guy doesn't know the name anymore.

[1588] Yep.

[1589] But they're talking about that they've seen everything.

[1590] And then now a third gal comes on the scene.

[1591] And she doesn't recognize me from fucking Shinola.

[1592] It's just she knows her two coworkers recognize me. So she now wants a pitcher.

[1593] She wants something signed.

[1594] She doesn't know who I am.

[1595] And she starts saying, what did I see you in?

[1596] Yep.

[1597] And I say, oh, I don't know what you've seen recently.

[1598] And she said, well, what did I see you in?

[1599] Yeah.

[1600] And I said, well, I've done like 35 movies and six television shows.

[1601] and so I don't know which of those are.

[1602] Okay, sorry, not to interrupt, but like, it's been like six minutes and we don't have food yet.

[1603] We don't have any food, yeah.

[1604] So I said, hey, it's Dad Shepherd.

[1605] Just Google it and you'll, I'm sure you'll see the thing.

[1606] Yeah.

[1607] That wasn't working.

[1608] I couldn't get out of this.

[1609] Yes.

[1610] We couldn't get out of this.

[1611] Now there's a huge line behind us.

[1612] No food has been presented.

[1613] Nope.

[1614] It gets crazier and crazier.

[1615] No one fucking knows.

[1616] They're not in a hurry to get us our food.

[1617] They're not giving us the food until they all figure out where they've seen.

[1618] see me and what my name is eventually the tacos come through the window they don't give me the drink yeah somehow we pull away we we park behind the taco bell to eat all these tacos for breakfast and all of a sudden it hits me and you i think at the same time oh my god we're in oregon where weed is legal they were fucking baked out of their mind definitely definitely so like even the guy who knew but then he didn't know and then she knew but she did i mean it's because she was big.

[1619] Yeah, I think they were incredibly high.

[1620] They were so fucking high at 9 .30 in the morning that everything shut down and they were in a vortex.

[1621] Yeah.

[1622] It was wild.

[1623] I felt like they sucked us into the madness of being stone.

[1624] It was a very bizarre situation.

[1625] You appropriately so lost your patience.

[1626] Yeah, at one point I was like let's just drive away and sorry about your tacos, but we got to go.

[1627] Yes, because it started to feel like we would never get the tacos or the drink.

[1628] Yeah.

[1629] And also, it was such a 180.

[1630] It started so wonderful.

[1631] I know.

[1632] We were so happy.

[1633] To meet him and he knew me, but then when he didn't know me and this compliment was coming from someone he doesn't even know and what's your name.

[1634] And please, I did refuse to print my name on the thing.

[1635] They're asking you to write your name over and over again.

[1636] What was happening?

[1637] Oh, my gosh.

[1638] That was an interaction.

[1639] Right out of the gates in the morning.

[1640] Yeah.

[1641] But the fucking tacos were delicious.

[1642] I don't regret.

[1643] You loved them.

[1644] I did.

[1645] I did.

[1646] But you did have a good interaction when you got a rental car.

[1647] Oh, my God.

[1648] Rob and I. We were leaving the San Francisco rental place.

[1649] Yeah, the parking garage.

[1650] And the guy who checks everyone's contract to make sure it matches their ID.

[1651] When I pulled up, he was like, oh, my God, I'm going to the show tonight.

[1652] Yeah.

[1653] Which I found to be so improbable.

[1654] And I said, well, get this, man. Fucking Wabiwob's behind me. So when I pulled forward, I could already hear him yelling to Robbie Robby, Robbie.

[1655] He was so excited.

[1656] Was that lovely?

[1657] Shout out.

[1658] You didn't even check my ticket.

[1659] He let me take the wrong car and everything.

[1660] He wouldn't fucking need to.

[1661] It's clearly wobby -wob.

[1662] Yeah.

[1663] That was a lot of housekeeping.

[1664] Well, I just don't have any packs for that.

[1665] Oh, that's lovely.

[1666] That's kind of perfect because we had a lot to air.

[1667] We had two massages.

[1668] Just one Taco Bell.

[1669] Three sightings.

[1670] By the way, the consistent theme of the sightings is that no one knows who I am because she thought I was Krasinski.

[1671] These folks didn't know what.

[1672] who knows what they thought we don't like i was a famous bear or something like bart the bear oh we did watch um a weird show on the tigers oh jesus sigfried and roy sigfried and roy oh my god about the mauling i hadn't heard this before i didn't know that their whole philosophy around it is that well really quick for those who don't know they were on stage doing their live show and manacore mauled one of the two Man, of course, a tiger.

[1673] Yes, a huge white, fucking 500 -pound tiger.

[1674] Yeah.

[1675] No one should be in close proximity, too.

[1676] Fucking mauled one of those two.

[1677] Yep.

[1678] Guy almost died.

[1679] There was some footage, but it's never was released our knowledge.

[1680] And the story they crafted, they did a bunch of press afterwards.

[1681] And the gentleman who got mauled claims that he had had a stroke on stage.

[1682] That's what set this whole thing off.

[1683] He had a stroke.

[1684] He went down.

[1685] And Manacore saved him by grabbing his face with his fangs and dragging him off stage.

[1686] Yes.

[1687] Yeah.

[1688] They believe or they want to believe.

[1689] They're so close emotionally to the tiger.

[1690] The tiger saved him because he did have a stroke, but obviously he had a stroke because of all the blood that rushed everywhere and some clots came loose.

[1691] And he had a stroke as a risk.

[1692] So not only did this thing fucking attack him in front of everyone, it also gave him a stroke.

[1693] That's the truth.

[1694] I know.

[1695] But it did make me sad.

[1696] It's like, God, people really want to believe in connection.

[1697] Well, if it were that, I would be really sympathetic to it.

[1698] And I do think there is, I used to, I watched this show fatal attractions about women, primarily women, living with big cats that get attacked.

[1699] And then their response would be generally this.

[1700] Yeah.

[1701] And I was sympathetic to that for many reasons.

[1702] I'm thinking these women definitely grew up with some very dangerous human being.

[1703] They're now trying to recreate this in a safe manner, whatever.

[1704] They didn't think that.

[1705] They were trying to save their income.

[1706] They were trying to save the stage show.

[1707] Well, it could be both.

[1708] And they were also responding to all the many people throughout their life that said, if you work with these tigers, they're going to fucking eat you one day.

[1709] So it was that they couldn't handle and I told you so.

[1710] And they were also trying to salvage their stage show.

[1711] Yeah.

[1712] There's no fucking way he thinks he had a stroke first and then the thing ate him.

[1713] Well, I don't think that's fair.

[1714] I mean, I think that it's all real.

[1715] I think it's all part of it.

[1716] But all the people in the audience who have spoke out.

[1717] So about 40 to one say, no, he's standing there just fine.

[1718] and it gets attacked by the thing.

[1719] No, no, I know that that's what happened, but I'm saying I believe he really might think that that tiger was saving him.

[1720] But the trainer of the tiger said he shouldn't go out that day.

[1721] They know what that, like, they know everything.

[1722] They know more than we know.

[1723] The Siegfried watched that he wasn't having a stroke and then just got attacked.

[1724] The trainer said the animals should, they pushed the animal too hard or whatever they did.

[1725] So, like, they're surrounded by the facts of it.

[1726] Yeah, so are people in abusive relationships.

[1727] They're surrounded by the facts.

[1728] They're surrounded by a lot of people telling them, hey, this is a problem.

[1729] Hey, that person's not safe.

[1730] Hey, hey, hey, hey.

[1731] I'm hung up on the order.

[1732] Like, the stroke order is just a lie.

[1733] That's a bold -faced lie.

[1734] He may not be able to know, like, if it's all happening to him very quickly, like, he doesn't know.

[1735] What if he just didn't want the cat to be put down?

[1736] Also, that might be a factor.

[1737] Apparently on his way to the hospital, he said, man, of course, a great.

[1738] great cat, make sure no harm comes to Manicor.

[1739] See, that makes me feel more like it's, it's the sad thing.

[1740] Manichore is a great cat.

[1741] Manichael has no business doing a live Vegas show.

[1742] Like I, I would, I would say, yes, don't kill Manicor.

[1743] Put them with other fucking tigers or whatever you do.

[1744] But let's not have Manicor doing a show.

[1745] He's not.

[1746] I'm not saying that.

[1747] I'm just, I'm trying to give some, you know, I just think humans really sometimes need connection despite craziness.

[1748] Yeah.

[1749] Also, all things can be true.

[1750] Manichor could absolutely love Roy.

[1751] Yeah.

[1752] I don't, I'm not arguing that.

[1753] Manichor probably loves Roy and would have eaten anyone who attacked Roy.

[1754] Also, Manichor has the brain power of a fucking one -year -old and sometimes is going to look at him and see a big drumstick.

[1755] Like, all of it's true.

[1756] Let me just say this.

[1757] If 10 % of vehicles without any warning exploded in traffic and killed everyone around it, we just wouldn't allow that.

[1758] No. We can't have anything with this high of a percent.

[1759] And it's sure, there's some success stories.

[1760] Some people live their whole lives with tigers and it's a beautiful relationship.

[1761] But a very, very significant percentage of those people get mauled, killed, eaten.

[1762] Or the other thing is this fucking tiger already attacked the boy of a, well, not that tiger.

[1763] One of Sigfrey and Roy's earlier tigers or lions in the circus show they did attacked the poor young boy.

[1764] Like 11 year old boy.

[1765] Of a dancer.

[1766] So it's not like this.

[1767] This wasn't a first time.

[1768] I know.

[1769] I know.

[1770] He already had a car that exploded in traffic.

[1771] He already had an abusive relationship once.

[1772] Yeah.

[1773] And, of course, dead too.

[1774] Oh, God, Rob.

[1775] They don't live off.

[1776] I mean, of course.

[1777] 17 years.

[1778] Oh, wow.

[1779] Really died of COVID last year.

[1780] Oh.

[1781] Now I'm going to flip.

[1782] Okay.

[1783] You ready for the flip?

[1784] Sure.

[1785] Can't believe I'm going to do this.

[1786] But I've had some friends who have raised motorcycles their whole life, and then they died.

[1787] Not from that.

[1788] Yeah.

[1789] And so I guess in some ways he could say like, yeah, everyone wanted me to be afraid of tigers.

[1790] Fucking COVID killed me. Everyone's like, don't do that.

[1791] You're going to get killed by a tiger.

[1792] Well, he didn't.

[1793] Yeah.

[1794] And he got killed by this thing that no one was worrying about.

[1795] Well, all of them.

[1796] Oh, it's starting in 2020.

[1797] No one even knew about it.

[1798] Like he didn't spend his life and others didn't spend their lives fearing the thing that actually killed them, as is the case with all of us.

[1799] We rarely die from the thing we're afraid of.

[1800] Correct, but he wasn't afraid.

[1801] I'm only saying that you could make the argument that if you don't do things because you're afraid they'll kill you, you're going to be proven wrong 99 % of the time.

[1802] Right.

[1803] True.

[1804] Yeah, that's another way to look at it.

[1805] So go ahead and get yourself a tiger.

[1806] Everyone should have a tiger.

[1807] When I walk down the street, I want to see all proud Americans with a fucking animal on a chain that weighs three times as much as you and a seven times as strong as you.

[1808] That sounds like a good idea.

[1809] Yeah.

[1810] I'm being facetious.

[1811] That was a joke, guys.

[1812] That was a joke.

[1813] Well, that's it because there really aren't many facts for Brunei, but we hit a lot of good topics there.

[1814] We sure did.

[1815] I love you.

[1816] Love you.

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