EXPERTS ON EXPERT: Steve Madden

[0] Welcome, welcome, welcome to armchair expert, experts on expert.

[1] I am Dax expert.

[2] I'm joined by expert, Padman.

[3] Yeah.

[4] Yeah.

[5] What am I an expert in?

[6] Oh, goodness, all kinds of things.

[7] You're a veritable information center for the Grove.

[8] God, that's true.

[9] I am an expert at the Grove.

[10] I could tell people.

[11] Perhaps even better than the...

[12] Mr. Grove.

[13] Yeah, John Grove.

[14] But on the way here, now we're on Lake Michigan and Michigan.

[15] Yeah, we're still in Michigan, but we're in the woods.

[16] by the lake and on the way here i sang to you i'm a good old boy you know my mama loves me but you can't understand they keep showing my hands and not my face on tv and i was explaining to you the history of well and jennings doing the theme song for the duke boys and if you had to rate that bit of information i gave you out of ten where would you put it as far as interesting or useful well okay hmm let's do two scores okay Useful one.

[17] Oh, yeah, or even zero maybe.

[18] I don't know.

[19] It could come up.

[20] It could come up.

[21] So I'll give it a one.

[22] Interesting.

[23] Oh, great.

[24] Yeah.

[25] That lyric was put in Whalen Jennings' own release of the song because in the title sequence of Duke's A Hazard, you saw his hands playing the guitar, but you never saw his face.

[26] Yeah.

[27] So his mom couldn't understand.

[28] They kept a show on his hands.

[29] Not his face on TV.

[30] Yeah.

[31] Listen, here's the thing with our guest.

[32] today.

[33] Steve Madden, of course I was aware of Steve Madden.

[34] He has a gigantic shoe empire.

[35] Yes.

[36] And then I vaguely remembered some kind of tasty marshal about maybe him being in Wolf of Wall Street.

[37] Oh, sure.

[38] Like I remember them chanting Steve Madden, Steve Madden.

[39] He was in fact part of Wolf of Wall Street.

[40] He did go to prison for nearly four years.

[41] And he is so candid about it.

[42] It was so interesting to hear about how he built this shoe empire.

[43] And then, you know, got sort of wrapped up and some not so great stuff.

[44] Like the phoenix fell and then rose or rised or risen from the ashes and really took charge after that.

[45] Yeah.

[46] Took his life back.

[47] I also just really liked him and he was really muscular and fit.

[48] We started off with pitchers and I got my arms around his broad shoulders and I just had to say for someone above 60, a lot of muscle mass. Yeah, he had a lot of muscles.

[49] Powerful.

[50] It wasn't one of the reasons I liked him.

[51] Right.

[52] That's generally not what you're attracted to.

[53] But for me, big time.

[54] Big time.

[55] So Steve Madden is here as our expert today, and he is fascinating.

[56] So please enjoy.

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[58] Join Wondry Plus in the Wondry app or on Apple Podcasts.

[59] Or you can listen for free wherever you get your podcasts.

[60] He's an armchair expert.

[61] How old are you?

[62] Sixty one.

[63] Sixty -one.

[64] Yeah.

[65] Okay.

[66] I just turned 61.

[67] Happy birthday.

[68] Thank you.

[69] What date exactly?

[70] March 23rd.

[71] Okay, my daughters is the 27th, so I feel like I'm going to love you.

[72] I'm not sure.

[73] We'll find out.

[74] You have a very charming accent.

[75] In the bowels of New York.

[76] Yeah, but you are strong.

[77] I'm looking at you, and I pray that when I'm 61, I'm retaining the level of muscle mass you have.

[78] So, you know, I did a couple of years in prison.

[79] You know, it's not something you lead with.

[80] Sure.

[81] Especially a tea dance.

[82] But, you know, there's really not much to do, but work out.

[83] I am obsessed with prison.

[84] I was in a movie about prison.

[85] That's as close as I ever got as I was at Joliet State Prison.

[86] And just acting in there, Steve.

[87] Just spending 10 hours a day in the cell, I was like, no fucking thank you.

[88] If I reached my arms out, I could touch both walls and still be very bent.

[89] That made me feel panicky.

[90] People are fascinated with it because it's everybody's worst nightmare.

[91] Yes.

[92] That's really.

[93] what it is.

[94] It is.

[95] It's my worst nightmare.

[96] Which I imagine would become weirdly empowering to have lived through something that is everyone's worst fear.

[97] Like beating cancer for people.

[98] I can give you this whole new perspective on life, right?

[99] Yeah.

[100] As a kid, I used to say, thank God.

[101] I don't have to have a baby because I don't know if I could do that.

[102] You know, like, it seems so terrible.

[103] Oh, birthing a baby.

[104] Yeah.

[105] And I was like, oh, thank God.

[106] And it doesn't look like I'm going to be going to war.

[107] Right.

[108] Because the Vietnam War had ended.

[109] The draft was over, and there was no draft, there was no war.

[110] Yeah.

[111] So I was grateful for that, because that seemed to me to be unbelievably bad.

[112] Yeah, guys just 10 years older than you were going to Vietnam.

[113] And getting shot.

[114] You know, prison was the third thing.

[115] Right.

[116] Yeah.

[117] And I thought, well, probably not.

[118] Probably not going to happen.

[119] Okay, so let's start at the very beginning.

[120] You're from Queens, New York.

[121] And you're from Rockaway, yeah?

[122] Yeah.

[123] Kennedy Airport goes right over the five towns and Far Rockaway.

[124] Right.

[125] My family is from that little neighborhood.

[126] And you are half Jewish, half Italian?

[127] Half Jewish, half Irish.

[128] You got the Catholic right.

[129] But it was very rare.

[130] Irish and Jewish is very rare.

[131] Italian and Jewish is not as rare.

[132] It's not as rare.

[133] I think the Italian mothers are similar to the Jewish mothers.

[134] Yes.

[135] Oh, that's really true, yeah.

[136] You know, the overbearing mother.

[137] Yeah, in the Irish mothers, they're not really that interested.

[138] So, dad Irish and mom Jewish?

[139] My dad was Irish, yeah.

[140] And so how did they meet?

[141] Well, my dad was from the Christian part of a Jewish neighbor.

[142] Oh, okay.

[143] It was a very Jewish neighborhood, but they had this little town where all the Gentiles lived.

[144] Uh -huh.

[145] And that's where my dad was from.

[146] It was the end of World War II, and I think they met at some sort of dance in the neighborhood.

[147] And I suppose, you know, at the end of war, I imagine that maybe barriers were less stiff because we'd all gone to war.

[148] You felt very unified as just an American.

[149] I imagine.

[150] Yeah.

[151] I wasn't born until 58.

[152] Well, you remember, I certainly remember, to bring it way down for a second.

[153] Um, the day of 9 -11 and the day after.

[154] I remember I was in Santa Monica and I went to 7 -Eleven to buy shit.

[155] And there was this bizarre civility to one another that I had never experienced on planet earth.

[156] And I was like, oh, wow, we are all overly aware at this very moment that were a thing.

[157] And that thing's under attack.

[158] Yeah.

[159] And we're in this together.

[160] Born out of tragedy, but, but it was, I was very aware and present for how unique that feeling was.

[161] Yeah.

[162] It feels like we're not there right now.

[163] No, no. In fact, it's, it would be the opposite I would describe.

[164] It feels like everybody is very in their own camp and you almost have to apologize for liking the president or for disliking the president.

[165] Sure.

[166] No, it seems to be really.

[167] Well, our identity is now who we like politically, which I think is bonkers.

[168] There's so many things, like there's so many things that would come on my list when choosing a friend before who they voted for.

[169] Yeah.

[170] But this is a very extreme time that we're living in, you must admit.

[171] Oh, absolutely.

[172] Yeah.

[173] And there's a bazillion theories.

[174] I have my armchair theories and I'm sure you have yours.

[175] But I think social media is, to me, a very loud megaphone for difference.

[176] It must be that because it is extraordinary time.

[177] What you can't argue is that this is the most divisive president of all time.

[178] That's just not true.

[179] Andrew Johnson, they had to get rid of him.

[180] He tried to go backwards on emancipation proclamation.

[181] We had a civil war.

[182] I mean, if you can just look at history.

[183] Lincoln would have been the most divisive.

[184] I mean, literally, divisive.

[185] Yes, divided the place.

[186] But I actually think that we're headed towards some secession.

[187] You know, I don't think it's out of the question.

[188] There's so much rancor between the two sides.

[189] What I pray is it doesn't take something like 9 -11 to fucking remind us that we're all neighbors.

[190] I hope we're evolved enough to get there without some horrific incident.

[191] Well, even sides of America, I mean, I've made that argument to friends of mine, like people all over the world, we're all the same.

[192] Right now, there's There's a guy named Abdul, and his wife is breaking his balls.

[193] Just like my wife broke my balls.

[194] You know what I mean?

[195] We're all the human.

[196] Yes.

[197] It would be great if everybody could get with that.

[198] Yes.

[199] We have about 96 % in common.

[200] We all wake up.

[201] We don't want to wake up.

[202] We all got to then take a shit.

[203] We've got to feed ourselves.

[204] We've probably got to get kids to school.

[205] By the time you get to the moment you would have your political debate, you've done nearly the same exact thing on planned earth as everyone else.

[206] Yes.

[207] And that should be very unifying and bonding, in my opinion.

[208] We're all plagued by being humans.

[209] Yeah.

[210] You're obsessed with defecation, I noticed that.

[211] Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[212] It's interesting.

[213] Interesting in what way, tell me?

[214] No, I mean, you mentioned it a few times.

[215] Oh, and that's, it's just the beginning.

[216] Jews are very obsessed with that, too.

[217] Germans are the most.

[218] Is that right?

[219] As a cultural characteristic, yeah, I read a whole Vanity Fair article.

[220] They've got like 3 ,200 words for shitting in the German language.

[221] It is interesting, isn't it?

[222] It is.

[223] I remember if I had a cold or something, my Jewish grandparents, they would want to give me like X -Lax.

[224] Okay, sure, sure.

[225] Get it out.

[226] Get it out.

[227] So, mom and dad, they stayed married?

[228] They stayed married, yes.

[229] They stayed married.

[230] Over 50 years.

[231] That's beautiful, yeah.

[232] They're both gone.

[233] You know, it was mixed.

[234] So I was Jewish and Christian at the same time.

[235] In those days, it was rare.

[236] It's not rare today.

[237] I mean, my kid goes to school.

[238] Everybody's half Jewish.

[239] And I, of course, have this view of that time period in that area that's very much informed by Goodfellas, Bronx, I have this kind of idealic kids running around the street, people playing stickball.

[240] Is any of that?

[241] The one that touched me was Madman.

[242] Oh.

[243] He captured the essence of the family in the early 60s and my dad wearing a hat, going off to work, drinking, you know, the drinking at lunch.

[244] Yeah.

[245] And I'd watch that show.

[246] I feel like I was getting together with my dad.

[247] Seeing my dad, so great.

[248] And what did your dad do?

[249] He was in the textile business.

[250] He sold fabrics to department stores.

[251] fabric stores every day he would go off on the train and he'd wear that long coat and he'd wear the hat and then at night as a little boy i'd pick him up at the train station with my mother i'd be a little boy i'd be in the back seat and he'd come walking off the train same train every night what was the golden goose for him because see my dad sold cars yeah so i could list to you like four things that would have been the pinnacle for him you know one was owning your own dealership you know there's all these things did dad have some obsession as he was building his career.

[252] If he could just slank.

[253] I think that my dad was so worried about losing everything that, you know, he grew up in the Depression.

[254] He had me at like 45, 46 years old, which was old in those days.

[255] Oh, sure.

[256] Not that old anymore.

[257] Said the guy with a six -year -old.

[258] Exactly.

[259] 61 -year -old kid.

[260] He grew up in poverty -stricken.

[261] So his thing was always to have enough money to play golf on the weekends and have a Cadillac.

[262] So he did allow himself those things.

[263] Yes.

[264] He did.

[265] Okay.

[266] We were always lived in fear.

[267] He operated out of fear, and he would read to me the bankruptcy notices in the newspaper when I was like 11.

[268] Uh -huh.

[269] Like he would say, look, see what's happening in the country?

[270] And he would read this stuff.

[271] And it has colored my business.

[272] I started this business many years later, even though I don't look very conservative as a businessman, I was a very conservative businessman.

[273] They used to call me chicken little.

[274] I used to always think we were going broke and the sky was falling.

[275] And it actually served me well because I, built a big company.

[276] So I have a similar disposition and I found at a certain point I had to go, it's time for you to shift gears because this is going to be limiting.

[277] You're not acknowledging what's really happening.

[278] In your pessimistic view, you'll be limited by that.

[279] So was there ever an evolution?

[280] But to grow a business that you've got to fucking at some point swing for the fences now.

[281] What you're asking me is a deeper question.

[282] It's like, what point did you think you deserved?

[283] Oh, that's interesting.

[284] You know, all this stuff.

[285] I'm a wealthy man. today.

[286] And I don't think I am.

[287] Like I'll say, look at Dax.

[288] Yeah.

[289] Big baller, actor, star.

[290] He's a wealthy guy.

[291] That's not me. And I'll do that.

[292] Like, oh, those people.

[293] Yeah.

[294] That guy's fucking rich.

[295] And people look at me like, are you fucked up in the head.

[296] Yeah.

[297] Well, you are, right?

[298] Yeah.

[299] And I am.

[300] Yeah.

[301] So my personal life and my business were separate.

[302] I remember in the early 90s buying two pairs of cowboy boots, brown and green.

[303] I was so racked with guilt that I bought two pair.

[304] I had to return one.

[305] did you have an entrepreneurial spirit as a kid where you like always trying to figure out how to make a couple bucks always i mean i can remember being six years old and nine years old and being different i was always different i was always entrepreneurial shoveling snow cutting grass all all that stuff catting and if the guys were good and lubed up and they shot well you might get a nice tip get extra two bucks yeah how did you do in school not well okay well right well i have a tension deficit a disorder.

[306] I was diagnosed as an adult.

[307] We didn't know about it when I was growing up.

[308] Yeah, I loved to read on my own.

[309] I loved history.

[310] You know, when you talked about Andrew Johnson, yeah, that's it.

[311] Let's talk about that.

[312] I love shit like that.

[313] And that was just all self -taught.

[314] You were pulling your hair out sitting still in a classroom for an hour at time.

[315] You know, when I had hair, I did pull it.

[316] Okay, well, that's what happened to it.

[317] So I did.

[318] I had trouble focusing to his stuff for me. And how did this mix religion play out in the social circle?

[319] I kind of dug it.

[320] I was an outcast and I kind of enjoyed that.

[321] And so amongst my Jewish friends, which I mostly had Jewish friends, I was just a little bit different.

[322] Right.

[323] Just like different.

[324] And I reveled in that.

[325] Sure.

[326] And then the Irish guys, you know, I was a Jew.

[327] I'm sure you heard millions of jokes nonstop at your expense.

[328] Of course.

[329] And how did you?

[330] No, I thought it was great.

[331] I enjoyed being an outcast.

[332] I didn't really have to pay a big price, by the way.

[333] In that you didn't get your ass kicked all the time.

[334] I wasn't like the only black guy in a white school.

[335] Right.

[336] You know, something like that or, you know, the only Jewish guy in a school.

[337] The only Indian girl in Duluth.

[338] The only Indian.

[339] I know, but for the sake of this, the only Jewish guy in prison.

[340] Well, you graduated high school.

[341] Yeah, I did.

[342] I graduated.

[343] And I went to college.

[344] Where'd you go?

[345] I went to University of Miami.

[346] Okay.

[347] Yeah.

[348] Yeah, but I only lasted a year.

[349] Did you like to party when you were younger?

[350] Yeah.

[351] Yes.

[352] I enjoyed.

[353] drugs.

[354] Yes, me too so much.

[355] Did you like drugs too?

[356] Yes.

[357] Are you sober?

[358] Yes, I am.

[359] You are!

[360] Yes, I am sober.

[361] Did you like cocaine?

[362] I liked everything.

[363] Oh.

[364] I was a complete lunatic.

[365] Okay.

[366] Did you ever stare at the peephole of your apartment?

[367] Oh, God, yes.

[368] I used to snort cocaine, and I'd be alone, and I'd start taking the love seat and the couch and putting them up against the door.

[369] I was convinced that people were coming down to arrest me. Sure.

[370] How insane cocaine made me. Well, because you're the center of the, you know, universe.

[371] So clearly everyone around you is thinking about you.

[372] So did it make you paranoid?

[373] So paranoid.

[374] They actually call it cocaine psychosis.

[375] Oh, wow.

[376] Usually, in my experience, it's more of a day two on the drug that it sets in your first nine, ten hours on it.

[377] I'm at least feeling pretty confident.

[378] It's generally on like, for me, day three.

[379] I would be completely insane.

[380] Uh -huh.

[381] It was the worst drug.

[382] Was it your favorite?

[383] You know, I did it with reckless abandon.

[384] I hated it.

[385] I couldn't stop doing it.

[386] Right.

[387] You know, it just made you feel so bad.

[388] It was the oddest drug.

[389] People loved it.

[390] You'd snort it and you'd feel bad.

[391] It was the most bizarre thing.

[392] No. I totally disagree.

[393] No, you snort it, but you couldn't talk.

[394] You couldn't have sex.

[395] You can't have sex.

[396] You can't have sex.

[397] You can't talk.

[398] You can't eat.

[399] So what's the point?

[400] Well, I have a different relationship with it than he does.

[401] I would snort it and feel optimistic.

[402] I liked myself.

[403] The world was going to work out.

[404] It was a great relief from my pessimism.

[405] Now, there is a little bit of euphoria.

[406] that goes with it, but you can't talk.

[407] Your mouth locks up.

[408] Well, I could, yeah, I could talk, but I couldn't, fuck, and that was one of my big breakthroughs in recognizing I had a problem with it, was I was at a bar, I was talking to a very beautiful gal, things were going swimmingly, someone come over and said, do you want Mike to bring an eight ball by?

[409] And I, like, looked at the girl, and I looked back at him, and I was like, knowing full well, if I say bring the eight ball, I'm not having sex with this person.

[410] And I said, yeah, I haven't bring an eight ball.

[411] In my mind, I went, oh my god you like this thing more than sex that's a red fly yes it's a little scary yes no but you know i had a bad relationship with it i drank a lot behind the coke and so i just took everything to excess all the time my drug because i'm older than you my crew we took quailudes yeah my dad loved yeah he would regale me with oh you're born too late i loved quailudes my generation we used to go to the pharmacy they were called seven 14s and you would just get this you know I tried to talk about quailudes in my documentary because it was a really big thing.

[412] I wanted to explain what it was like.

[413] Usually you took it on an empty stomach because you didn't want anything to interfere.

[414] Right.

[415] You want to be pure about it.

[416] Yes.

[417] No reading.

[418] Quailutakers are notoriously skinny.

[419] And sexy.

[420] So you'd get this tingly feeling and you loved everyone.

[421] It wasn't even sexual, although it was that as well.

[422] But it wasn't even just that.

[423] You'd see the mailman delivering your mail and just, I want to be close.

[424] to you.

[425] I want to be your friend.

[426] You know, you want to...

[427] It was like an intimacy drug.

[428] Is it like ecstasy?

[429] You know, I never did ecstasy.

[430] Oh, it sounds like it's similar, maybe.

[431] I've heard people say that about that.

[432] Oh, really?

[433] How long ago did you quit?

[434] So I'm sober six years.

[435] Six years.

[436] Yeah, I had a little time.

[437] Uh -huh.

[438] And I went out.

[439] How long had you had before you went out?

[440] I had about 10 years.

[441] Oh.

[442] So...

[443] And you're back, though?

[444] Yeah.

[445] That's fucking incredible.

[446] So I had a little detour with painkillers.

[447] Oh, sure.

[448] That's a very...

[449] very common.

[450] Yes.

[451] Because you can get a surgery and then you wake up the beast.

[452] Yes.

[453] Yes.

[454] I'm very vigilant today and I don't mess with with anything.

[455] And I mean, I do take Advil.

[456] I've had a lot of stuff.

[457] I had my teeth done.

[458] You know, I had a lot of work on my mouth.

[459] And I didn't need anything.

[460] Wow.

[461] I mean, I got obviously Novacane.

[462] Right.

[463] But, man, I had so much work done.

[464] They drilled and they put implants in.

[465] Oh, wow.

[466] And did everything in my math.

[467] Stone Cold, Sover.

[468] And I didn't need.

[469] There wasn't even that moment where you're like, am I hurt enough?

[470] Yeah.

[471] Let me grab one of these pills.

[472] The pill addiction, I would argue it's the worst of all them, in that such diminished return.

[473] Yeah.

[474] Of all the addictions, right?

[475] It's just immediately downhill as far as you're not even getting anything out of it.

[476] It's like being kidnapped.

[477] Yeah.

[478] Especially opiates because you get sick if you don't take them.

[479] Right.

[480] That's another thing.

[481] And the cocaine, you didn't really, it wasn't the same opiates.

[482] physically you feel it.

[483] Oh, my God, I got to take something.

[484] I may not make it.

[485] Yeah.

[486] It's awful.

[487] It's so bad.

[488] And then you need more and more so bad.

[489] I'm so glad you're here.

[490] And I'm so glad you found your way back.

[491] Yeah.

[492] It's really awesome.

[493] It takes a lot of courage to come back after a slip.

[494] Yeah.

[495] I encourage anybody who's out there to go get help.

[496] It's courageous.

[497] It's the opposite of what you think.

[498] You feel ashamed.

[499] I should be sober.

[500] It's the nature of the disease.

[501] And I'm going to add to it, it's a huge service to come back and tell me what it was like, because I'll be fantasizing about it.

[502] Oh, maybe it's this.

[503] Maybe it's that.

[504] Like you can't overestimate the power of coming and telling your story.

[505] It's so helpful to all of us, especially if you have like long terms of Brian.

[506] Here's another guy who had 10 years.

[507] It's so helpful.

[508] Right.

[509] And then you can't also underestimate the disease.

[510] That's the one thing.

[511] Like it's always true.

[512] I see guys.

[513] They went to a rehab and they come back and they seem to be doing okay and they smoking a little weed.

[514] where they're taking edibles.

[515] And they're like, but they're cool.

[516] You know, and I'm like, oh, geez, maybe they are cool.

[517] Right.

[518] Why am I such a loser?

[519] I can't take anything, you know.

[520] And then the next thing you know, they're like in a straight jacket.

[521] Yeah.

[522] Parted off.

[523] Yeah.

[524] Okay.

[525] When do you start your shoe business?

[526] So I was 30 or 31, 31 maybe, started Steve Madden.

[527] What were you doing between dropping out at Miami and then?

[528] So I worked in a shoe store.

[529] Okay.

[530] Learned the shoe business.

[531] and then some wholesale company pulls me out of the store, says, you've got a lot of pluck.

[532] Hutzpah?

[533] Pluck.

[534] I like the word pluck.

[535] It's better.

[536] No, but Hutzp is good, too, because I have that too.

[537] Okay.

[538] And, you know, and I went to work in a wholesale business, and I learned my craft, and I wholesaled shoes.

[539] And then I started to design shoes.

[540] I started to work on shoes.

[541] I said, you know, I could do this.

[542] I think I could do this.

[543] And I did do it.

[544] And then that ran its course, working for another company.

[545] And I started my own.

[546] And were you artistic at all as a kid?

[547] Like, were you someone who's sketched or?

[548] No, I wasn't artistic.

[549] So fascinating.

[550] I mean, I was very creative in some ways.

[551] Sure, and how to get things you wanted.

[552] Yeah.

[553] Bullshit artist.

[554] Right, right.

[555] No, I was a creative kid, but I wasn't a drawer, an artist in that sense.

[556] But I thought differently.

[557] Were you reverse engineering?

[558] Were you going, I can see what's working in the marketplace.

[559] Can you explain your design?

[560] inspiration.

[561] That's exactly it.

[562] I could recognize the voids in the market and I knew how to get it done and I knew how to make them.

[563] And I had a sense for business and I wasn't nervous about that.

[564] I never doubted my ability to do that.

[565] But you know, there are so many things in a business to raise money.

[566] You have to be able to pay your bills and there's a lot that goes into it.

[567] To have the perfect skill set to make a business work.

[568] Bill Gates was an incredible programmer, visionary, whatever the fuck he was.

[569] But then to also be able to hold the reins of a business growing that fast is yet another crazy anomaly, right?

[570] There's so much to it and also creating shoes on top of creating this company.

[571] The secret to business is to have people on your team.

[572] That's really, you know, I had a good thing.

[573] I understood how to make a shoe that's sold.

[574] So I had that talent.

[575] But then there's a million guys with that talent.

[576] The secret was I started building players, people coming in and building this thing and growing the business and hiring people that were better than me. That was a real secret.

[577] You know what I mean?

[578] Do this for me, you know, knowing that I couldn't do certain things.

[579] That's an Achilles, though, for many people myself included where I'm a bit of a control freak, but you have got to delegate, right?

[580] You've got to find people that are better at shit than you.

[581] Absolutely.

[582] And it's very interesting.

[583] The way you put it, you made me think because the entrepreneur is a perfectionist, and he is a control freak.

[584] So it's counterintuitive to let go.

[585] But in order to win, you must let go.

[586] Yeah.

[587] In order to win, you must let go.

[588] You must get people that are better than you to do different things.

[589] I mean, there's very few people that can do it all.

[590] There are some.

[591] I was not one of them.

[592] I mean, I can't keep a piece of paper on my desk.

[593] If you gave me a piece of paper, it would be lost in 40 minutes.

[594] Yeah, yeah.

[595] Where is that paper?

[596] I'd be going through my, you know, that wasn't my thing.

[597] So you start, Steve Madden.

[598] You took savings you had acquired through working for other people and launched this business.

[599] Yeah, I started with $1 ,100, actually.

[600] And then I was able to build a bankroll.

[601] and one foot in front of the other.

[602] It sounds corny.

[603] I did what I could do and made different business deals that weren't quite capital intensive.

[604] So I was able to use other people's money in the beginning and then keep building.

[605] Right.

[606] And now here's where the really fascinating part of your story begins.

[607] A lot of people have seen Wolf of Wall Street.

[608] Yes, they have.

[609] I couldn't believe they were making a film.

[610] I can't believe my life was coming to the big screen.

[611] Also, by the way, heralded by a guy, you must have been from New York loved.

[612] Scorsese.

[613] He must have...

[614] Oh, he's just the greatest filmmaker.

[615] Yes.

[616] I mean, Goodfellas is, that's the film.

[617] It's everything.

[618] In fact, when I'm with my friends, you said, what's your favorite film?

[619] You can't use any Scorsese films.

[620] You're not allowed to...

[621] Right, right.

[622] It's that kind of thing.

[623] He's so great.

[624] Yeah.

[625] Anyway, I saw the film.

[626] They screened it for me. Twelve people from my company, and my heart was pounding.

[627] You know, it was pounding, because I thought, what are they going to make me look like?

[628] You know, my kids.

[629] So, I really...

[630] really couldn't take it all in because I was just so nervous.

[631] But then I realized they treated me fairly.

[632] Uh -huh.

[633] And so I started to enjoy it towards like maybe two -thirds of the film.

[634] And I never saw it again since then.

[635] It kind of freaks me out.

[636] Of course, the scenes that they show, if I'm at a basketball game, they'll show a scene.

[637] And they'll put me on the Jumbotron.

[638] Uh -huh.

[639] There's a famous scene where they're on Kualudes.

[640] And they say, Steve, Matt, I walk on the streets and people go, Steve, Matt, Steve.

[641] Yes, so the guy that Jonah Hill is playing is a childhood friend.

[642] One of my best friends.

[643] One of my oldest friends, yeah.

[644] They were incredible.

[645] These guys nailed it.

[646] Yes.

[647] They nailed it.

[648] So, so many layers of that.

[649] One, how wild to see a story you were involved with be brought to the screen by Scorsese, Leonhardo DiCaprio, all these.

[650] That in itself is like surreal enough, right?

[651] Yeah, that's crazy.

[652] But then their story in and of itself is crazy surreal.

[653] The pump and dump, the whole thing.

[654] Yeah.

[655] Now, I was sober when this was happening.

[656] Oh, you were?

[657] Just only recently looked back and seen that my addiction to money had taken over.

[658] Right.

[659] Because I was sober.

[660] Yeah.

[661] I mean, people that, you couldn't have been sober.

[662] I mean, it was all this crazy.

[663] And they were high all the time, but I was.

[664] But it was something else was happening to me. And it was another external thing that gave you an internal feeling.

[665] That's right.

[666] Yeah.

[667] Yeah.

[668] Oh, and it doesn't matter, right?

[669] You'll clear money off the table.

[670] Good.

[671] I lick that.

[672] And I'll say you're like, wait, I'm eating popsicles at night in a weird manner.

[673] I think I might be using this to regulate my emotions.

[674] I'm eating over the sink.

[675] Yeah, it never ends, right?

[676] I'm still eating over the sink.

[677] Oh, good.

[678] Yeah, but they filmed in my store.

[679] They invited me to the set in my store.

[680] And I was like, no, you got to play counting crows.

[681] That's what we listened to in those days.

[682] It was that kind of thing.

[683] Of course, they didn't listen to me. So your childhood friend, I am assuming he approached you and said, let us help.

[684] capitalize your company.

[685] That's exactly right.

[686] And he seemed to have the money train his backyard.

[687] That's right.

[688] In my shoes at 31 years old or how old you were at the time, wouldn't have even been interested in whether it was legal or not, just personally.

[689] Yeah.

[690] Wouldn't have given a fine.

[691] Well, I appreciate you giving me the benefit of the doubt.

[692] At that time, we thought it was legal.

[693] Okay, great.

[694] It was a little bit of a gray area.

[695] Sure.

[696] Because there was so much money being made.

[697] They promised me to get me money and I'd ever had more than 20 grand in my life.

[698] I didn't even believe them.

[699] I said, yeah, sure.

[700] Yeah.

[701] Okay, whatever.

[702] Right.

[703] We'll get you, we'll get your 600 grand and then we're going to raise you seven million bucks.

[704] And they did it.

[705] Yeah.

[706] And that must be a feeling akin to winning the lottery, right?

[707] Could you even believe that was happening?

[708] It was amazing.

[709] To have money, I never really had money.

[710] It was odd.

[711] Yeah.

[712] It was an odd feeling.

[713] That would propel me into, well, if that just happened, what's next?

[714] Because we're only happy for about 30 seconds.

[715] right if we get the thing it's amazing how that goes so it takes up so they actually raise all that money and then and then you put that money to good use i'm assuming i did i had an innate sort of instinct on how to make it happen and i took the money and you grew the business yeah and i was involved with the guys and they were doing other deals you were investing with them at that point yes those were the things that i got into trouble for and while you were doing them how conscious were you of like Oh, this is definitely over the line, or this is deniable.

[716] I know this is a little shady, but I think it's deniable.

[717] Were you playing that whole shell game with your head?

[718] You're just thinking that it'll never happen to you.

[719] That happens to other people.

[720] Like, we're all going along and, you know, nothing bad is going to happen.

[721] Stay tuned for more armchair expert, if you dare.

[722] We've all been there, turning to the internet to self -diagnose are inexplicable pains, debilitating body aches, sudden fevers, and strange rashes.

[723] Though our minds tend to spiral to worst -case scenarios, it's usually nothing, but for an unlucky few, these unsuspecting symptoms can start the clock ticking on a terrifying medical mystery.

[724] Like the unexplainable death of a retired firefighter, whose body was found at home by his son, except it looked like he had been cremated, or the time when an entire town started jumping from buildings and seeing tigers on their ceilings.

[725] Hey listeners, it's Mr. Ballin here, and I'm here to tell you about my podcast.

[726] It's called Mr. Ballin's Medical Mysteries.

[727] Each terrifying true story will be sure to keep you up at night.

[728] Follow Mr. Ballin's Medical Mysteries wherever you get your podcasts.

[729] Prime members can listen early and add free on Amazon Music.

[730] What's up guys?

[731] It's your girl Kiki and my podcast is back with a new season and let me tell you it's too good and I'm diving into the brains of entertainment's best and brightest, okay?

[732] Every episode I bring on a friend and have a real conversation.

[733] And I don't mean just friends.

[734] I mean the likes of Amy Poehler, Kell Mitchell, Vivica Fox.

[735] The list goes on.

[736] So follow, watch, and listen to Baby.

[737] This is Kiki Palmer on the Wondery app or wherever you get your podcast.

[738] Well, you know, it's a bit like that college scandal that's going on.

[739] You know, I think people have been paying to get their kids into school.

[740] Oh, forever.

[741] You know, that's an old story.

[742] It's that kind of thing.

[743] It happens.

[744] You do it.

[745] You do it.

[746] And then all of a sudden, somebody gets busted.

[747] And it's like, What were they thinking about?

[748] TMZ hit me when I was walking out of a restaurant.

[749] And they asked me what I thought about it.

[750] And I said, it was a stupid thing.

[751] But do you really think she should go to jail for that?

[752] Right.

[753] I mean, I don't think she should.

[754] I'm talking about Lori, the girl from, I don't know her, but.

[755] Full house.

[756] Stucie's husband, we should mess.

[757] Mazimo.

[758] You're funny.

[759] You're funny.

[760] No, no. Funny because I confuse Stusi and Masimo all the time.

[761] Steve, we've had to come to the same realization like six times on this podcast.

[762] We had like a 30 -minute long conversation on this podcast about who she was married to.

[763] She's married.

[764] She's Marci Moissom -Mossom.

[765] I thought, Moussoni.

[766] And I'm like, no, Moseoni's Italian.

[767] It's so funny because in the early 90s, Stucy and Mawes.

[768] Same shit.

[769] It was the same shit.

[770] Oh, same.

[771] It's like the surfer.

[772] Very similar writing.

[773] Baseball hats kind of thing.

[774] I know she's really unpopular.

[775] She's become the poster child for the 1 % for excess.

[776] Yeah.

[777] She's the whole thing.

[778] She's the mascot now.

[779] People have beaten this shit out of her.

[780] And this is about imprisonment in general.

[781] Do we have the goal of punishment or do we have the goal of rehabilitation?

[782] Because rarely can the two exist at the same time.

[783] And so for me, yes, what she did is abhorrent.

[784] Yes.

[785] It's disgusting.

[786] It is all of that.

[787] Do I think now on top of that we should all spend $31 ,000 a year so she can sit somewhere and we should pay for her to be in there and she's now not adding anything the society.

[788] Let's hurt ourselves to show her she was wrong in some way.

[789] She's not a violent criminal.

[790] I don't know what the productive end goal of it is.

[791] Okay.

[792] So it's a good point that you're bringing up because there's prisons and certain people need to go to prison to protect the society.

[793] Absolutely.

[794] I've thought about that a great deal.

[795] Yeah.

[796] And do I think that white collar people should be locked up?

[797] I guess they should.

[798] There's all different kinds of stealing.

[799] I certainly deserve to be locked up.

[800] And it's a question of how much time do you want to give people.

[801] And I agree because You can't say that a black kid robbing a liquor store is worth going to jail for.

[802] And then a white guy robbing whatever fucking fund is not.

[803] In that respect, 100%.

[804] I've been thinking about all these things in the last few days because this fellow that I know, this guy, Michael Cohn.

[805] Oh, right.

[806] Yes, I know him.

[807] He was Trump's guy, Mr. Fixit.

[808] And he's going to prison.

[809] And I spoke to him, you know, to try to give him some advice and thought, you know, like we're just a bunch of white guys talking.

[810] about prison.

[811] We've done such an injustice to the black community.

[812] Oh, God.

[813] Warehousing, black.

[814] You can't talk about prison without talking about the African -American experience, which could be a whole other program.

[815] No, but you're right.

[816] They're so disproportionately incarcerated.

[817] It's absurd.

[818] It's crazy.

[819] They were giving black kids 360 months selling crack cocaine, which is 30 years, 19 -year -old kids, 20 years.

[820] It was just crazy.

[821] Let's also just point out that crack had its own class of of mandatory sentencing and not white people COVID.

[822] Right, right.

[823] Yet you and I are sitting here talking about being ex -drug addicts.

[824] Yeah.

[825] I never was in jail for doing drugs, were you?

[826] No. If you and I were black and we had the same history, we would have done jail time.

[827] That's almost a certainty because we would have been stopped.

[828] A thousand more times than you and I were stopped and they would have found shit on me. Yeah.

[829] It's that simple.

[830] Yes, that's correct.

[831] We don't know what that's like.

[832] Right.

[833] And I think that's the whole thing that we need to deal with.

[834] So now when you got sentenced.

[835] You got sentenced to 41 months?

[836] 41 months, yeah.

[837] And at that point, where was Steve Madden, the shoe company at?

[838] So the shoe company was doing great.

[839] We just had a great wholesale business, and we had about 30 stores or something like that.

[840] You were doing like $200 million in business.

[841] And I don't remember what the number was.

[842] Well, I know that when you got out of prison, you elevated it $100 million to $3 .40.

[843] Something like that, yeah.

[844] So it must have been around.

[845] We really exploded.

[846] Yeah, but it was a big business.

[847] It was a nice business.

[848] It was doing well.

[849] and then I went away.

[850] In the layers of panic fear that you were experiencing, what percentage of it was, oh, fuck, I'm about to lose my freedom versus, oh, fuck, my business is going to collapse in my absence.

[851] It was all of the above.

[852] I was worried about that I would die penniless or maybe not that dramatic, but that I needed to save every penny because they didn't know what the future would breathe.

[853] At that moment, upon entering, you were the CEO and you were forced to...

[854] Yeah.

[855] I had a seven -year ban from being the CEO.

[856] Yeah.

[857] A friend took over.

[858] And I have to say they kept it going.

[859] Yeah.

[860] They did some really good work when I was away.

[861] And it was pretty much the same, maybe a little bit less when I came back.

[862] I came back 30 months later.

[863] And then we were all just so energized and it just exploded.

[864] And the business has exploded since then.

[865] I'd been back 14 years.

[866] Now, can you walk me through some of the phases of that 30 -month experience?

[867] have to imagine when you first arrive, it's just panic?

[868] I don't know if it's panic is the right word.

[869] It's just like, how am I going to survive this shit?

[870] Like, how am I going to get through this?

[871] And it's like a day at a time.

[872] Right.

[873] And you just have a few things.

[874] You have to mind your own business.

[875] That's a big thing.

[876] You know, you see some crazy shit going on.

[877] You go the other way.

[878] You know, you're there to just to do your bid.

[879] Do you like the movie out of sight?

[880] Out of sight with George Clooney.

[881] I love that movie.

[882] Isn't it great?

[883] The greatest.

[884] That was the greatest film.

[885] And so that's set largely in a Florida federal penitentiary.

[886] I love that movie.

[887] So visually, did it resemble that place?

[888] That was a long way to go.

[889] So we lived in cubes.

[890] These cement block, similar to orange is the new black.

[891] It was the first sort of captured it.

[892] But it was much smaller.

[893] Those girls had bigger rooms.

[894] We had tiny little cubes.

[895] They lived with one or two guys.

[896] Foot locker.

[897] Not the store foot locker.

[898] Yes.

[899] A foot locker.

[900] Yes.

[901] Ironic for shoe owner.

[902] Yeah, yeah, right.

[903] And did you meet any super interesting people in there?

[904] So many interesting people.

[905] Mostly everybody's there for drugs.

[906] Okay.

[907] You know, like I would say 80 % of the prison is drugs.

[908] I mean, I don't know if that's accurate.

[909] We actually did that on one fact check because it's much higher in federal than state we found out.

[910] Yeah.

[911] So I went to a camp, then I transferred to a low.

[912] You live in cubes.

[913] You go into a cell in a medium prison, but medium security.

[914] They call it medium.

[915] Okay.

[916] Mostly Cuban and Puerto Rican, the Spanish guys, and then the black guys.

[917] And, you know, so you get into that experience, you know.

[918] For sure.

[919] Not to paint it as a positive experience, but there are certainly elements of it that are kind of a cool privileged experience.

[920] It was a positive experience.

[921] It was a heartbreaking, awful experience that it was some great guys there.

[922] You didn't have to join a Nazi gang to stay alive.

[923] I didn't have to join the Aryan.

[924] Brotherhood.

[925] The Aryan Jews or whatever.

[926] You know, it wasn't like that.

[927] Was there a trial?

[928] Me. No, I pled out.

[929] Oh, you did?

[930] Okay.

[931] I just made a deal, pled out, and went off.

[932] So then the night before you have to go there, what is that?

[933] Like, just knowing, starting tomorrow, there's four years of me. Did you go to Dairy Queen?

[934] So, no, I went with my guys.

[935] We flew down, six or seven guys.

[936] My brother, some really good friends.

[937] And we went out to dinner and hung out.

[938] And then you go at 10 .30.

[939] Yeah.

[940] And you self -surrender.

[941] They call it self -surrender.

[942] And while you're doing it, you think you could be like the Ramada in.

[943] But it's not.

[944] Right, right, right.

[945] It's not checking in.

[946] You go, I remember I brought with me a book.

[947] I had a book about the Rolling Stones.

[948] Don't ask me why.

[949] I had a book.

[950] And they like, did he threw it out?

[951] Like, what did you?

[952] You're allowed to bring a Bible with you.

[953] Oh, that's it.

[954] That's it.

[955] Oh, boy.

[956] You can't bring anything with you.

[957] Like the moment you go with your friends and you drive up to the gate and then all of a sudden you go into this room and it's over.

[958] It's over.

[959] It's over.

[960] It's over.

[961] Strip, clothes go in a bag, hand goes up your ass.

[962] I mean, it's...

[963] It's on.

[964] It's on and awful.

[965] It's awful as you can imagine.

[966] That's how it is.

[967] Nasty fucking prison guard.

[968] They must pick the nastiest one.

[969] Not all the prison guards are terrible.

[970] Right.

[971] but the ones that do the induction are particularly terrible they're sending a clear message right out of the gates i mean you know that famous scene from officer and a gentleman where he says don't eyeball me boy oh yeah yeah he says don't eyeball me lu gosset yeah it was like that like you couldn't look him in the eye what are you looking at yeah you mad dog in me i didn't tell you to fucking talk did i say you could say anything it's like that it's like crazy was there any point in there where had gotten so used to the routine of it that it started feeling normal.

[972] Yes, actually.

[973] I don't know what normal means, but the last sort of nine months, my routine.

[974] There's pretty documented examples of people who actually long for that experience.

[975] Like, I'd have been in there, come out, and it's, I've heard that.

[976] I'm not sure.

[977] You buy it.

[978] I don't buy that.

[979] But it's, it's bad, but you're making the best of it.

[980] So like, you know, for me, you get up.

[981] I taught a class.

[982] I worked in the library.

[983] I taught a class.

[984] It's very quick.

[985] It's like a 90 -minute thing.

[986] And then you're pretty much free.

[987] And you do your lunch.

[988] You do your workout.

[989] Right.

[990] You know, you try to do something.

[991] Then you come back, reading.

[992] You know, and I really got into reading.

[993] And I really got into reading novels.

[994] It was a big thing, like at night.

[995] Like you were turned on a great show.

[996] Yeah.

[997] I'd get in my bunk and I would have this little clip on light on my book.

[998] And I would get in the bed.

[999] And you get in there.

[1000] And I'm like, you know what?

[1001] It was okay.

[1002] like, I did another day.

[1003] Right.

[1004] Yeah, I got through this.

[1005] Because the thing that does seem appealing to me is, by the way, it's the only thing I miss about drugs.

[1006] Once you get high, you have a singular objective.

[1007] Everything else gets right size.

[1008] It's just stay high.

[1009] That's it.

[1010] And for some reason, I found that comforting.

[1011] I like having one thing I have to do.

[1012] So in a weird way, I could see myself just enjoying the fact that I get up.

[1013] As you say, I go to this class, then I got to eat and then I got to work out.

[1014] but like the weight of the world is no longer on my shoulders.

[1015] That's true, actually.

[1016] Even though I had a business, there was nothing I could do about it.

[1017] Right.

[1018] So I had people running the company and they would tell me what was going on, but I wasn't focused on that.

[1019] And I know if you started this business, you have a very busy brain.

[1020] Yeah.

[1021] So there must be a little bit of freedom and stepping out of that and just knowing like, well, I can't do anything.

[1022] My favorite thing in the world is a road trip because I'm completely unaccountable.

[1023] What can I do from the driver's seat of my car to help you?

[1024] or to answer.

[1025] I can't do anything.

[1026] And I love it.

[1027] You still do it.

[1028] Yes.

[1029] Live for it.

[1030] With me, I had this ability to play tapes in my brain.

[1031] I'd play the marriage tape, the father tape, but I wasn't any of those things.

[1032] Or I'd play the golfing tape or the business tape.

[1033] And I was able to fantasize and to go someplace else.

[1034] And that ability really saved me. My brothers were much older than me. So I was sort of raised an only child.

[1035] I think I got that from being alone and having to create my own world.

[1036] Yeah.

[1037] But also addiction lends itself to romantics in a way.

[1038] There's like this romanticism about Bukowski or Hemingway or there's a romanticism involved in sex addiction.

[1039] It's this ability to create this fantasy that's so complex.

[1040] Yeah.

[1041] And enticing that it can get you high like a drug can.

[1042] So there's, it's almost like implicit in an addict to be.

[1043] a little bit of a romantic.

[1044] Yes, I think that's true.

[1045] But of course, that you get to a place I think I have now where I find that dreadfully boring.

[1046] Doesn't work.

[1047] Yeah.

[1048] Okay, so you get out day one of out.

[1049] Is it what I would think, or does it under -deliver?

[1050] It was a blur.

[1051] I was engaged.

[1052] I got engaged to a long -time employee and we became romantic, not sex.

[1053] Yeah.

[1054] But romantic.

[1055] While you were inside.

[1056] Yeah, wrote beautiful letters to each other.

[1057] And it was great.

[1058] That sounds very romantic.

[1059] It was the most romantic thing.

[1060] And so she picked me up, and it was just like a blur.

[1061] I think like we had sushi.

[1062] I don't even remember.

[1063] Yeah.

[1064] It was like, I think we went on the airline that has TV.

[1065] Oh, uh -huh.

[1066] Yeah, it was just like, whoa, you're going off.

[1067] And then it was amazing.

[1068] Like a dog hanging its head out the window smelling every smell.

[1069] It was like that.

[1070] And then I was able to go back to work quickly.

[1071] And it was just the most exciting time.

[1072] And so what things changed?

[1073] Because your first year out, you increased the business a ton.

[1074] And then by 2015, you've tripled even what that 2006 was.

[1075] I'm not going to count your money in front of everyone, but it's a lot of fucking money.

[1076] 1 .4 billion in 2015.

[1077] So when you got out, you increased the revenue by $100 million, brought up to $475, and then by 2015, the company's making $1 .4 billion a year.

[1078] What happened between there?

[1079] I have to digress.

[1080] Richard Pryor used to do this great bit where he would be high on cocaine and he'd call his accountant.

[1081] And he'd go, how much?

[1082] I got and like at three in the morning and they'd say in the account bring it over right now you know his other someone else told a great story about him where it's like he invited them over and the guy got there and he had like a kilo of coke on the coffee table and two hookers and he said look look at this look at this look at these girls and then I was like oh my god and then he's like all right now get out of here he's like what are you talking about I thought we were going to party he's like no I just want you to see what I'm doing.

[1083] Get the fuck out of here.

[1084] I'm tempted you to be come observe what I've got going.

[1085] So what were the, I don't want to say paradigm shifts, but what happened?

[1086] Where are the stages of that?

[1087] The stages of coming back.

[1088] Coming back and then growing it into such a huge successful company.

[1089] Because of incarceration, I was forced to hire so many people.

[1090] And even when I got out, I did that.

[1091] And I hired people that were smarter than me. I bet on a couple of people and they've really been amazing.

[1092] Right now, the company's at the best level it's ever been at, over $3 billion market cap, started with $1 ,100.

[1093] Wow.

[1094] That's amazing.

[1095] Yeah, it was really quite a journey.

[1096] Are you actually able to digest that information?

[1097] Intellectually, you can because, you know, you see stuff, right?

[1098] You see the money or you see the success.

[1099] But do you feel it viscerally on a cellular basis?

[1100] And the answer is, no, I really don't.

[1101] And there are days that I do.

[1102] I wish I could talk to a bunch of guys that have made a lot of money.

[1103] You know, like, what's that like?

[1104] Some people seem so supremely confident.

[1105] But, like, one truth that I know, I'll bet Drake wakes up and thinks he looks like shit on certain days.

[1106] Yes.

[1107] Right?

[1108] It's that kind of thing.

[1109] Because people think, oh, my God, Steve, you have all this money now.

[1110] And I know, because I know what it's like to be Steve's.

[1111] I would have to imagine if I found 25 -year -old Steve Madden and I said, said, when you're 61, you're going to have X amount of money and X amount of market share and X amount of stores, all that stuff.

[1112] You would have fantasized about a feeling, an internal feeling, and a sense of self -worthen a sense of all that stuff that just doesn't exist.

[1113] Kenneth Cole, he was the guy I looked up to.

[1114] I said, oh, my God, he's got his name in the shoes.

[1115] What's it like to be Kenneth Cole?

[1116] And I actually became friendly with him.

[1117] We played golf together.

[1118] he's a badass he's a pretty cool guy but my company's much bigger than kennets uh -huh and you didn't feel some magic no no he's still kenneth call right right yeah so if it ain't that which it ain't that i think what you can internalize is you can be proud of how hard you worked you can be proud that you were humble enough to get people that are smarter than you there's some things there to be proud of yeah the number doesn't really elicit any pride no right but you can be proud of the hard work yeah now now what things in your life give you the thing that you thought a billion dollars would give you?

[1119] Sometimes there's a moment where you look and the kids are with you.

[1120] And I never thought I was going to have kids, you know, and have three kids.

[1121] And, you know, they'd be eating and I'm like, step outside of it.

[1122] And I look and I see them eating and, you know, that kind of.

[1123] Talking head song.

[1124] Yeah.

[1125] Look at this man with this beautiful wife.

[1126] How did I get here?

[1127] It's a bit of that, you know, but they look so beautiful.

[1128] wonderful feelings.

[1129] When I wake up and I make the kids toasted bagels with butter, and I don't want to do it.

[1130] I can't stand getting up in the morning.

[1131] I hate it.

[1132] And they're going up, they're going to school and I'm like stumbled to the toaster.

[1133] And I buy these bagels because I don't really cook well, but I do make great bagels.

[1134] And I feel proud that I make them chocolate milk and bagels.

[1135] And for that moment, you know, the world is okay.

[1136] Yeah.

[1137] Now, that moment, all is well.

[1138] Yeah, freedom from the bondage of self.

[1139] Yes, yes.

[1140] So it's weird.

[1141] The gift isn't the gift you think it's going to be, but yet there is a big gift sitting there.

[1142] Yes.

[1143] To become Steve Madden and go, oh, when I look in the mirror, I still see a guy that I wish had better blank and better blank.

[1144] Yeah, exactly.

[1145] So what's the name of your documentary?

[1146] It's called Mad Man. Mad Man. Mad man. Well, we wanted to call it the cobbler, but somebody had taken that.

[1147] Couldn't use it, but now the book's going to be called the cobbler.

[1148] and I'm right.

[1149] Oh, great.

[1150] That's great.

[1151] What is your philosophy on time management?

[1152] Because I have to imagine that if you gave into it, you could be busy 24 -7.

[1153] Lately, the last couple of years, maybe last year, I've been enjoying doing nothing more than ever.

[1154] It's kind of a new thing for me. Now, I don't know if it has to do with Donald Trump.

[1155] Not to get political, but it's so interesting what is taking place in the country that you can kind of like have the TV on.

[1156] Oh, sure.

[1157] And just kind of stumble around.

[1158] It's so entertaining.

[1159] Love them, hate them.

[1160] Wherever you fall on this thing.

[1161] It's a hell of a show.

[1162] Some of the stuff is, if you wrote it in a book, it's unbelievable.

[1163] What's happening?

[1164] Well, the sheer volume is what's unbelievable.

[1165] Literally daily.

[1166] I keep expecting them to run out of something.

[1167] But if I glance at Twitter, it's hourly, it's daily.

[1168] He tweeted about the Kentucky Derby.

[1169] Okay, I missed that.

[1170] And it doesn't surprise you anymore.

[1171] Yeah, it's become normal.

[1172] But maybe he's on to something.

[1173] Yeah, I think Bill Maher's lately been saying of him, he sold himself as a non -politician who's a great businessman, but in fact, he's a great politician who's a terrible businessman.

[1174] Like there's like a weird flip.

[1175] That's actually true.

[1176] That's good.

[1177] Well put.

[1178] Okay.

[1179] So now you've been dialing back.

[1180] Do you have fear that, oh, shit, if I'm not around it, the whole thing's going to collapse?

[1181] No, no. I have a terrible fear about that.

[1182] I work with my team, and they're doing great.

[1183] And they're actually doing better without me, which really freaks me out.

[1184] It completely makes me insane.

[1185] Yeah.

[1186] And I had to get used to that.

[1187] Of course, I built it.

[1188] I have to say that.

[1189] But they're doing great.

[1190] Business is great.

[1191] So have a little bit more free time.

[1192] And you're divorced now as well, right?

[1193] Yes, yes.

[1194] I'm divorced now.

[1195] And I've got a good relationship with my ex -wife.

[1196] We were married for nine years or 10 years.

[1197] I'm divorced, but I have more time to kind of think about all this stuff.

[1198] You know, I'm just getting used to it.

[1199] Yeah.

[1200] Yeah.

[1201] Well, you know, and I would imagine a friend of mine's in the NHL, and I was talking to him just Friday about when guys retire from be at NHL, NFL, anything, things.

[1202] Most of them experience a pretty big lull.

[1203] And conventionally, people thought, oh, they miss the limelight or they miss the paycheck or they miss the game.

[1204] And it's not that.

[1205] They now know.

[1206] Like, it's the camaraderie.

[1207] It's the sense of purpose.

[1208] Yeah.

[1209] That is invaluable to humans.

[1210] Yeah.

[1211] So I miss the action.

[1212] I love to fight and I love to scrap and hold grudges.

[1213] And, you know, I left it.

[1214] I don't do that as much anymore.

[1215] Yeah.

[1216] Things are good.

[1217] Things are normal.

[1218] Mm -hmm.

[1219] As a kid, I was obsessed with reading about the moguls.

[1220] Oh, uh -huh.

[1221] I used to read about Jack Warner and Louis B. Mayor and Daryl Zanick and all these guys.

[1222] I had the sense that I was like that in some way.

[1223] Even as like, you know, like an 11 -year -old and 12 -year -old kid reading about these guys.

[1224] Yeah.

[1225] They were interested in the whole vision from the creative, the business, the everything, putting all the pieces together.

[1226] A guy that made Gone with the Wind wasn't the director.

[1227] He didn't write the screenplay.

[1228] He wasn't an actor.

[1229] His name was Selznick.

[1230] He was the executive producer.

[1231] And that was like, that's the guy.

[1232] That's what I want to be.

[1233] And I brought that to the shoe business.

[1234] Right.

[1235] I really did.

[1236] You succeeded early on by my understanding of having unique marketing that everyone knew about, right?

[1237] So you had the bobblehead woman walking on the street.

[1238] What role did that play in the same thing?

[1239] success, do you think?

[1240] So it started with an idea that I had, which was this Eloise at the plaza, which is an old New York thing.

[1241] And it's this weird.

[1242] It's a cartoon.

[1243] It's a book.

[1244] Yeah.

[1245] And it was with drawings.

[1246] We started with that.

[1247] And then this guy had this photographic trick where he blew up the heads.

[1248] Yeah.

[1249] Nothing like Eloise.

[1250] Right.

[1251] But that's what I wanted.

[1252] And he made it, this guy.

[1253] And what was great about it was looking back on it once we had this technique we my company we created the ads we styled them we created him we worked with this agency yeah and it was great and it was like a group effort it was a very exciting time in a fun way you had come through the back door to do something hollywood -esque yes like you actually had a production it was weird now that you mentioned it ended up being that i ended up being that guy right you know we're putting all the pieces together It was fantastic period.

[1254] But they're all good periods.

[1255] Yeah.

[1256] And you'll find that too.

[1257] Yeah.

[1258] As a sober man like me, they're all good.

[1259] They all bring interesting shit.

[1260] It's just all interesting if you're awake.

[1261] And if my ego's not evaluating which one of those things is more important than another.

[1262] And I can just be present and enjoy those things.

[1263] Well, that might be a tall order.

[1264] That's a very tall order.

[1265] We have to fight that.

[1266] Yeah.

[1267] My ego is not my amigo.

[1268] Yes.

[1269] My ego is not my amigo.

[1270] Yeah.

[1271] Is there anything that you still have your sights on?

[1272] So many things, getting older now, 61.

[1273] March 24th.

[1274] March 23rd.

[1275] Fuck you.

[1276] It's the 24th now officially because I've said it.

[1277] Let's change it.

[1278] I will say one thing that I heard and believe.

[1279] So we don't get older, but our bodies get older.

[1280] Because I'm the same 10 -year -old, obnoxious kid, but the casing changes.

[1281] So trying to outlast myself or.

[1282] trying to overcome all my shit on a daily basis.

[1283] My self -centeredness, which I am in the extreme, and that's the challenge today.

[1284] And it seems a little prosaic, but it's not.

[1285] I don't think you can be an entrepreneur who grows something and builds something without being a crazy self -centered, at times ego -maniacal, at times narcissistic, all these things.

[1286] The trick, I think, is to step off the treadmill, right?

[1287] We can do that.

[1288] Yeah.

[1289] It can be done, even if you are a part -time narcissist.

[1290] You know, I've been reading a lot about the narcissist thing.

[1291] It's like, oh, my God, is that me?

[1292] Yeah.

[1293] You know, they have all these things like, don't date a narcissist.

[1294] Don't fuck with a narcissist.

[1295] You'll steal your soul, you know, that kind of stuff.

[1296] But it has been me, but it's not me. It's not who I am.

[1297] Yeah.

[1298] You know what I mean?

[1299] And even if it were you, it's not to say it has to be you.

[1300] It's not me, but it could be me. I was wrestling with it strongly, recently myself.

[1301] I'm like, who am I kidding?

[1302] and I think I'm just a hardcore narcissist.

[1303] I certainly am thinking about myself 24 -7.

[1304] When I'm in a situation, my first thought is how I'm uncomfortable.

[1305] But I will say that I witnessed something at work on one of my many acting jobs, so I'm not singling out which one it was.

[1306] But I was watching another actor, could have been male, could have been female.

[1307] This actor was complaining about their lines.

[1308] They were complaining about where they had to stand.

[1309] They were complaining about this and that.

[1310] And I thought to myself, that's the definition of narcissism.

[1311] I have the same thoughts.

[1312] I think my lines are crappy and I think I don't want to stand there, but I recognize everyone around me also feels that way.

[1313] To feel uniquely put upon is a narcissist.

[1314] Like to feel individually targeted and everything's unfair to you and you can't recognize that everyone else isn't the same.

[1315] I think that's where it breaks now.

[1316] Or at least I told myself that.

[1317] I'm like, okay, I'm not a hardcore narcissist because I'm aware that everyone doesn't like their position or their lines or their light, whatever the fucking thing is.

[1318] that's a good point but there's something that i like to do is like it so let's say i go and sit down someplace i have to say steve why don't you ask three questions about other people you know like it's like a drill almost there are many times when i walk into a meeting and i'll go steve ask about somebody else and listen to them and don't talk about yourself because all i want to do is talk about myself of course that's it but the simple fact that you're a cross your mind that that's something you should do whether it comes immediately natural to you or it's a little bit forced it's still something I don't think a narcissist is actually asking themselves to do.

[1319] Well, let's hope you're right.

[1320] They don't care to change it at the very least.

[1321] Right.

[1322] And then also we know from our club, you can act your way into thinking differently.

[1323] That's for sure.

[1324] Behavior empowers feelings, for sure.

[1325] That's a very good point.

[1326] But you force yourself to do it for a while.

[1327] At some point, it'll just be a habit and it'll be real.

[1328] You know, narcissists can be so fucking boring.

[1329] And that's what I don't want.

[1330] What did you tell Cohen?

[1331] Is that private?

[1332] What did you advise him to do?

[1333] That he was going to be okay.

[1334] And to mind your business, some simple stuff, like the guards, don't talk to them.

[1335] Yes, sir, no, sir.

[1336] Don't even try to win him over.

[1337] No, no, that's a fatal flaw.

[1338] While the testimony was happening, it was this great opportunity to see how unobjective I actually am as a person.

[1339] When Cohen was defending Trump, I was like, this guy is the biggest piece of shit in the world.

[1340] I don't like the shape of his face.

[1341] He's the kind of guy that this, like I filled in all this stuff.

[1342] Then I started watching his testimony.

[1343] Of course, he's saying things I like, right?

[1344] So now I start going, I bet you this guy's a fun hang.

[1345] Like all things aside, I bet at a dinner party, I like this guy.

[1346] Yeah.

[1347] And then I had this moment where I was like, oh, everyone has experiencing this flip.

[1348] So everyone who loved him three months ago hates his guts and everyone who hated him loves him.

[1349] It just goes to show how subjective we are as people, right?

[1350] Yeah.

[1351] Yeah, he's a nice guy.

[1352] But he got caught up, you know, if you can look at it like that.

[1353] I know he got caught up with a very charismatic, swaggy motherfucker.

[1354] Yeah.

[1355] You know, like who own golf courses and casinos and shit.

[1356] Sky's ravers.

[1357] He was around pretty girls and he got caught up.

[1358] Yeah.

[1359] You know, he got caught up and he did the wrong thing a lot of times.

[1360] I don't think that's who he is.

[1361] You know, what he did is not who he is.

[1362] Mm -hmm.

[1363] And we have to have compassion.

[1364] Mm -hmm.

[1365] But, you know, he did some shitty stuff.

[1366] He did for sure.

[1367] A God, he's telling himself the same lie we all tell ourselves, which he's saying, if I can get some of what that guy's got, I'm going to feel a certain way.

[1368] Yeah, we need to put ourselves in the other fellow's shoes sometimes.

[1369] Being compassionate doesn't exclude you from being just.

[1370] We can still send people to pay their debt and also have compassion.

[1371] It's not either or.

[1372] Well, Steve Madden, you're awesome.

[1373] If I enjoyed meeting you so much, I wish you tons of luck as you to pull off the throttle a little bit and ease into relaxation.

[1374] Great.

[1375] All right.

[1376] Stay tuned for more armchair expert, if you dare.

[1377] And now my favorite part of the show, the fact check with my soulmate Monica Padman.

[1378] Just some good old facts.

[1379] Never meaning no harm.

[1380] Beats all you never saw been in trouble with the facts since the day he was born.

[1381] Oh, that was good.

[1382] Well, we're going full circle with the Duke's a Hazard theme song.

[1383] Sure.

[1384] You know, at our live show in Detroit, somebody.

[1385] Hello.

[1386] Oh, we're in a log cabin and no one has Mike Stans and Rob's, just really wrestling with his.

[1387] At our live show in Detroit, someone made up a song, a fact check song, and sang it.

[1388] Well, told you to sing it.

[1389] Yeah, but the lyrics were so complicated.

[1390] only retain like the first line.

[1391] What was the song?

[1392] You're a real fine woman when you back them facts up.

[1393] Yeah.

[1394] Yeah.

[1395] That was good.

[1396] It was.

[1397] I really was wanting him to sing it.

[1398] I felt like it was one of those moments like on that British version of Star Search or American Idol or whatever, like an old gal comes out.

[1399] And then all of a sudden she opens up her mouth and angels fly out.

[1400] You know, we've all seen those momentous moments and reality shows where someone's an incredible singer.

[1401] So I was just waiting for that man all of a sudden just start singing like Kavarotti or something.

[1402] Oh.

[1403] That's what I was prepared for.

[1404] Well, because his female partner said he has a song, but he's shy.

[1405] And then I thought, oh, this is when this happens.

[1406] Oh, sure.

[1407] It's a good lead up into some revelator, revelational.

[1408] Yeah, you and I cannot get our arms around that word.

[1409] We want to say a revelation, but we want to say past tense of it.

[1410] And then we say revelatory, which is not bad.

[1411] That's like when you're reveling in something.

[1412] Yeah.

[1413] Yeah.

[1414] This is a revelation.

[1415] Right.

[1416] Revelational.

[1417] Revelational?

[1418] Anywho, that did not happen and that was okay.

[1419] It was still lovely.

[1420] It was darn lovely.

[1421] Yeah.

[1422] But again, if he had just been like Pavarotti all of a sudden, what a thing to witness.

[1423] You would have liked it.

[1424] Quite a bit.

[1425] So Steve Madden.

[1426] Yeah.

[1427] We've only had a few guests where we exchanged telephone numbers and now he and I are texting.

[1428] It's a real connection.

[1429] Yeah.

[1430] Yeah.

[1431] A shoe connection.

[1432] Is that the name of a shoe store?

[1433] or something?

[1434] Should be.

[1435] No, that's shoe gallery.

[1436] Or French connection.

[1437] What does he text to you about?

[1438] Private stuff, you know.

[1439] Okay.

[1440] Rude.

[1441] Well, I can say we're texting without having to detail what he says to me. Sure, you can.

[1442] Well, the theme wasn't necessarily what he said as much as we made a French connection.

[1443] At the shoe gallery?

[1444] Yes.

[1445] He was interesting.

[1446] Yeah, big time.

[1447] He went to prison.

[1448] I'm so fascinated by prison.

[1449] I imagine many of us are because it's the ultimate fear.

[1450] Yeah.

[1451] I always try to tell myself as a mantra when I'm really upset and I'm just having a lousy day and I'm grinding over stupid details.

[1452] I'll just remind myself, well, I'm not in prison and I'm not dead.

[1453] Those are really the only two things you can't really deal with.

[1454] Well, in this case, he did deal with it.

[1455] Yeah, I think you do deal with it.

[1456] No thanks, though.

[1457] I don't ever need that experience.

[1458] I'd rather not.

[1459] Yeah.

[1460] But I could also see how people get there.

[1461] Oh, sure.

[1462] You know?

[1463] I could have ended up there.

[1464] A couple different.

[1465] You definitely.

[1466] Yeah, a couple different incidents.

[1467] Well, one for certain, yeah.

[1468] Are you going to tell us or is it's like a text?

[1469] I'm sorry.

[1470] I can't admit to the thing I've admitted to you about 7 -Eleven.

[1471] I can't say that out loud.

[1472] Probably shouldn't say that.

[1473] Yeah, and I could have gone to prison for sure, but I didn't.

[1474] Now, at the same time, and I think I told him this, I do have a slight fantasy of going to prison just to read all those books I'm supposed to read that I don't know I'm ever going to find time to.

[1475] All the classics.

[1476] I also feel like if I was in there, I could really write a good book.

[1477] What the hell else would you do?

[1478] won't lift weights.

[1479] In my fantasy, I exit prison like a Schwarzenegger J .D. Salinger.

[1480] Sure.

[1481] An amazing writer with humongous biceps.

[1482] But I don't think I have done anything to go to prison.

[1483] But I'm trying to really go through all the things in my brain.

[1484] No, I haven't.

[1485] You could have committed vehicular manslaughter.

[1486] I mean, that's something that happens.

[1487] No, no, no, no. No, you would know.

[1488] I'm just saying even you who's a great rule father.

[1489] Or you could find yourself.

[1490] Or what about a grand conspiracy?

[1491] A setup, a frame -up.

[1492] You think I would be involved in that?

[1493] Yeah, if someone didn't like you, and they were like, I'm going to pin a crime on her to get rid of her.

[1494] Oh, oh, I thought you meant I was framing somebody else.

[1495] No, no, no, no. I'm talking more like the fugitive.

[1496] Oh.

[1497] There was a man in my house.

[1498] That man had one arm.

[1499] Find that man. I haven't seen it.

[1500] You haven't seen the fugitive?

[1501] Harrison Ford.

[1502] I haven't seen it.

[1503] Oh.

[1504] Sorry.

[1505] That's okay.

[1506] Get off my plane.

[1507] I think I do an okay Harrison Ford.

[1508] Yeah, that sounded pretty good.

[1509] Or that magic special we watch and he goes, Get the fuck out of my house.

[1510] Yeah, that's David Blaine's special on Netflix.

[1511] Yeah.

[1512] And he does magic for celebrities.

[1513] It's so fascinating.

[1514] And yeah, Harrison Ford, he really stumps him.

[1515] He really blew his mind.

[1516] Yeah.

[1517] And he goes, get the fuck out of my house.

[1518] He did.

[1519] You know, another obsession of Nate and I, other than John Doe, the actor, is Harrison Ford in that so many of his movies, the bulk of the movie, is him reacting to either turbulence on a plane or a big explosion.

[1520] He's always run, he's a very physical career.

[1521] And in the Air Force One film in particular, he has a whole set piece where he's down in the galley.

[1522] And that plane is just throwing him side to side.

[1523] But, of course, in real life, nothing's happening.

[1524] the actor's just having to throw himself around the set.

[1525] Yeah.

[1526] And Nate and I have watched that particular sequence over and over again because he's really selling that.

[1527] Right.

[1528] And we were imagining that that scene was probably shot after lunch.

[1529] He had a real big lunch.

[1530] So he was down there like running and falling.

[1531] And we were just thinking, boy, he's probably close to throwing up in those scenes.

[1532] Yeah, all that physicality with the buffet bar -style macaroni cheesy, ate barbecue chicken.

[1533] All right, so he said Jewish people are also obsessed with poop.

[1534] Oh, really?

[1535] I couldn't really find anything about that.

[1536] Okay.

[1537] But you brought up the German obsession, as we've already covered.

[1538] Right.

[1539] But since then, we have spoken to some Germans and asked them if that.

[1540] Simon and Daniela.

[1541] And we asked them if there was any truth behind that claim, they said, No. They were off put.

[1542] Well, they were pretty perplexed by even the question.

[1543] Like, what are you talking about?

[1544] So in our research, so far we've gathered two hard knows that that's not true.

[1545] Can anyone ever really be objective about their own culture?

[1546] The Germans had done some kind of study of the American character.

[1547] I would probably trust their conclusion, even maybe more than I trust our own.

[1548] That's true.

[1549] Because I think it's the naive realism, right?

[1550] They're going, no, we have the same obsession of poop that anyone else has.

[1551] You just assume whatever your thing is.

[1552] your culture is standard around the world.

[1553] Yeah.

[1554] But you said that they have 3 ,200 words for shitting and they don't.

[1555] No, no, no. No, no. Not at all.

[1556] We don't actually have a number.

[1557] So it's just they have multiple words.

[1558] Right.

[1559] But there is a lot of words about anality.

[1560] Remember that?

[1561] Anality.

[1562] No, anality.

[1563] Anal.

[1564] Oh, okay, okay.

[1565] And what I didn't say on the last one about this.

[1566] this was shit performs a number of bizarre linguistic duties.

[1567] For instance, a term of endearment was my little shit bag.

[1568] There you go.

[1569] I think if we maybe ask them, like, do you say that?

[1570] They probably say no. Ooh, we should find out.

[1571] We should.

[1572] Simon did tell me he uses shit for a lot of stuff.

[1573] Oh, he does.

[1574] You just like, fuck, you say shit.

[1575] Oh.

[1576] The cereal is very shitty.

[1577] And it means good.

[1578] well i don't think it's good if you're replacing it with fuck right i was replacing it with everything sure like he says it a lot like even for things that are tasty the word for shit had a lot of meanings okay and then there's a lot of folk sayings like as the fish lives in water so does the shit stick to the asshole so yeah i mean if that's a a famous german proverb yeah but maybe they've evolved because that doesn't sound like a pretty thing to say as the fish swims in water so does the shit stick to an asshole and you go like thanks dad i am going to try out for the track team what does it mean as the fish lives in what like is it just there's always shit stuck to an ass no i think it means it's the shit's nature to stick to an asshole as it's a fish's nature to be in water okay you know like you can't be mad at poop for sticking to your bottom cheeks because that's its nature i'm going to be mad about it okay well It's inconvenient, but the shit's doing its duty, I think.

[1579] It's duty.

[1580] Doing it's D -O -D -Y.

[1581] Or is it D -I -E?

[1582] I would spell it D -I -E.

[1583] Yeah.

[1584] Okay, cocaine psychosis.

[1585] We were talking about cocaine.

[1586] He didn't have the same reaction to cocaine.

[1587] You did.

[1588] No. Cocaine affects people in a variety of ways.

[1589] While some people may find that using cocaine allows them to feel happier and sociable, that's you, other people feel the effects of paranoia or symptoms similar to schizophrenia, which is what he had.

[1590] Yeah, cocaine -induced schizophrenia.

[1591] Now, I had a person on Instagram who is a chemist who did reach out about the cocaine.

[1592] Oh, being a three -time re -uptake inhibitor.

[1593] Dopamine serotonin and norophenaphrin.

[1594] Noraphen.

[1595] Noraphen.

[1596] Nor epinephrine.

[1597] That's a hard one.

[1598] Nora Epereffron.

[1599] No. Nora Ephron.

[1600] Yeah.

[1601] Big director.

[1602] Yeah.

[1603] I think she passed.

[1604] I think so.

[1605] Yeah.

[1606] Oh, but while I'm talking about armcherrys, I just want to say one thing that I failed at doing in Cleveland on Sunday was to call out Ed HIPPS.

[1607] HIPPS.

[1608] Ed HIPPS is who runs the armcherry companion site.

[1609] Oh, was he in Cleveland?

[1610] He was in Cleveland.

[1611] I was going to thank him from the stage.

[1612] Oh, man. And then I just got.

[1613] flustered.

[1614] I also forgot to thank Lazy Boy and Chrysler Pacifica.

[1615] I was a topsy -turvy.

[1616] We had driven from Detroit.

[1617] I ate way too many white castles.

[1618] Oh, 12.

[1619] You ate 12.

[1620] I ate 5.

[1621] Well, we got an argument on the ride from Detroit to Cleveland about what was better white castle or crystals.

[1622] This is a long ongoing debate.

[1623] Yes.

[1624] And we then labeled them just for time and convenience, Cassies and Chrissies.

[1625] So we saw Cassies.

[1626] I pulled in, ordered a the number nine, which was 20 burgers, four fries.

[1627] And you were appalled by that order.

[1628] Yeah.

[1629] And I said, trust me, this is going to be the perfect amount for the ride.

[1630] I was off by two or three burgers.

[1631] You were right, because if we had gotten the 10, it would have not been enough.

[1632] No, because you ate six all in?

[1633] Five.

[1634] Okay.

[1635] And I ate 12.

[1636] Uh -huh.

[1637] I must have eaten 13 because there was only two left when I threw the bag out.

[1638] The Pacifica had an odor when we were done.

[1639] It had a dense.

[1640] onion odor.

[1641] Very onion -y.

[1642] From the Cassies.

[1643] Yeah.

[1644] But you did say that they were delicious.

[1645] They were.

[1646] They taste exactly like Chrissies.

[1647] And I love them.

[1648] And what we love most about Cassie's and Chrissies is that that bottom bun becomes permeated about halfway down with burger fat and onion grease.

[1649] Yeah.

[1650] And it is what a paste.

[1651] I prefer the word goo, but you like paste.

[1652] Yeah.

[1653] Either way.

[1654] It's a slug.

[1655] of delicious damp bread.

[1656] It's so good.

[1657] Okay.

[1658] So yeah, Wolf of Wall Street.

[1659] He's a part of that whole thing.

[1660] Yeah.

[1661] And we talk about that, but I got a little nervous that some people who hadn't seen it would not understand what was actually going on.

[1662] Do you want to explain it?

[1663] Boy, I don't know that I could, but I will just say that that movie was about two gentlemen, Leonardo DiCaprio and Jonah Hill.

[1664] I forget their real life names, but those are the actress playing them.

[1665] and they had a pump and dump scheme on Wall Street.

[1666] They got super rich.

[1667] They were both addicts.

[1668] And then ultimately the whole thing collapsed.

[1669] And one of the companies they were pumping and dumping and dumping was Steve Madden's shoes.

[1670] Jordan Belfort is a Leonardo DiCaprio character.

[1671] And it's based off of his memoir.

[1672] So Jonah Hill played Donnie Azoff.

[1673] Who was Steve's childhood friend.

[1674] Yeah, which is so interesting.

[1675] Yeah.

[1676] Childhood friends.

[1677] Okay, a pump and dump is a form of securities fraud that involves artificially inflating the price of an owned stock through false and misleading positive statements in order to sell the cheaply purchased stock at a higher price.

[1678] It's also the term when you're trying to get pregnant.

[1679] Oh, sure.

[1680] It's also the term for if you've had some alcohol or something, you want to pump your breast milk and dump it so the kid doesn't get drunk.

[1681] That one I've heard.

[1682] But I definitely called the time when I was trying to impregnant, Kristen, is pump and dump.

[1683] Okay.

[1684] All right.

[1685] That's a pretty good way to talk about getting pregnant for people.

[1686] Okay, people can take that and use it if they like.

[1687] Yeah.

[1688] You know, some of these schemes and fraud, this is sort of what I was talking about at the beginning.

[1689] I feel like could happen to me. Uh -huh.

[1690] Yeah, me too.

[1691] They have some gray area.

[1692] Kind of like insider trading.

[1693] Like, I never like fully understood why insider trading is that bad.

[1694] And if you get information, how can you not...

[1695] Share it.

[1696] How can you not act on it?

[1697] If they have actual concrete information that the general public that's investing doesn't have, if they have that information because they work at that company or they're a lawyer that knows the way a court case is about to be decided or many different things that put other investors at a disadvantage to them, then it's insider trading.

[1698] I know that, but I just don't like if you work at the company, you just know that.

[1699] Well, if you work at the company, you're not allowed to be investing during those periods.

[1700] Right.

[1701] Not unlike if you play for a sports team, you're not allowed to put a bet on that game in Vegas.

[1702] Right.

[1703] You know, you could sway the game.

[1704] But if you work at a company, you generally have shares of that company.

[1705] Right.

[1706] But if you work at AT &T, let's say, and you have a million shares and you find out that in eight days they're about to announce their earnings report and it's terrible.

[1707] You can't sell all your stock eight days before.

[1708] Yeah.

[1709] And then announce the news.

[1710] You've got to take the ride with everyone else.

[1711] Sure.

[1712] I just...

[1713] Yeah, it's not like walking into a liquor store with a pistol and demanding the cash out of the register.

[1714] Mm -hmm.

[1715] Like that feels very like a clear line you've stepped over.

[1716] Yeah.

[1717] Whereas some of this stuff does feel a little grayer.

[1718] Well, it just feels like you're asking a lot of that person.

[1719] Well, that's why I believe in regulation.

[1720] I think it's too much to expect of an individual to have an opportunity to quickly make a tremendous amount of money and think that they're not going to do it when.

[1721] In their mind, there's no seeming victim.

[1722] Exactly.

[1723] I'm like, oh, what if I dump my 1 ,000 shares?

[1724] What's that really going to do to this overall market that has a volume of trillions of shares?

[1725] And if I didn't know that, I still could be selling that today.

[1726] Right.

[1727] It is a lot to expect a person not to, you know, step a little over the line.

[1728] I know.

[1729] I think people are going to be mad at me for defending that.

[1730] For being empathetic to it?

[1731] Yeah, I just really am.

[1732] Yeah.

[1733] I just could see how most people would fall into that trap.

[1734] Here's another thing.

[1735] How deep does it extend?

[1736] Let's say I knew Warner Brothers had spent $500 million on a new DC movie.

[1737] And then I got invited early to a screening of that to give my opinion to the director or something.

[1738] And I saw it and I was like, oh, this thing's a fucking shit show.

[1739] Yeah.

[1740] This movie's not going to work.

[1741] Could I legally then go short WB stock?

[1742] See, I think, yes.

[1743] Is that insider information?

[1744] It probably is, but that's what I'm saying.

[1745] Like, how could you not?

[1746] Yeah.

[1747] And you're about to lose your fortune and.

[1748] Yeah, but I'm even being more tactical.

[1749] I'm going to short the stock.

[1750] So I'm going to go, I'm going to go, I'm going to go rent some stock, a thousand shares.

[1751] I sell it today because I know that movie's going to come out and do terrible.

[1752] Yeah.

[1753] And that's all a month down the road.

[1754] And then I'll buy them back up and return the shares.

[1755] The line is so.

[1756] thin between like the big short guy who he didn't know a hundred percent just like you wouldn't know a hundred percent by seeing the movie you just would assume like oh this is bad no one's telling you this is going to fail 100 you don't know you're just taking are you talking specifically about the christian bail character yeah the things that he was investigating where he he had figured out which bundles of mortgage back securities yep had reached a tipping point of toxicity.

[1757] The records he was reading was available to everybody.

[1758] So anyone in the world could have done the same research he did.

[1759] That's true.

[1760] That's true.

[1761] I guess that's the difference.

[1762] And he actually didn't have any inside information.

[1763] He wasn't like being tipped off by any of these companies.

[1764] He was just reading the public.

[1765] Yeah.

[1766] The public filings.

[1767] Yeah.

[1768] Then I guess the Warner Brothers thing would be that because not everyone has the ability to see the movie beforehand.

[1769] Yeah.

[1770] Right.

[1771] Oh.

[1772] There's so many other ways to cheat.

[1773] these documentaries about the traders moving their whole operation to Connecticut because it's that much closer to the source of the DSL or the T1 line that all the trades happening on.

[1774] So it does hit their computers like 0 .006 seconds faster.

[1775] And just having that advantage, they can do all these real -time micro -trades just based on that advantage they have on the fucking internet.

[1776] Wow.

[1777] So there's a lot of people looking to benefit from any wiggle room.

[1778] Yeah.

[1779] It's fascinating.

[1780] But you said we were spending $31 ,000 a year for Lori Laughlin to be in prison.

[1781] And yeah, you're right.

[1782] According to the Vera Institute of Justice incarceration costs an average of more than $31 ,000 per inmate per year nationwide.

[1783] In some states, it's as much as 60 ,000.

[1784] Yeah, isn't that bonkers?

[1785] Can you talk about this on Jerry Beuting maybe?

[1786] We maybe did.

[1787] Maybe.

[1788] Yeah, because I did remember both those numbers.

[1789] You just said, yeah, I want to say like New York State.

[1790] There's areas in New York State.

[1791] It's 59 ,000 per in May. There's areas in California.

[1792] I agree.

[1793] I'm like, look, I don't like what happened there.

[1794] I'm like, she's going to be in prison for that.

[1795] Yeah, exactly.

[1796] A, do I think she's going to do it again?

[1797] No. After the public shaming.

[1798] Oh, God, yeah.

[1799] So we want to correct people's behavior.

[1800] Yes.

[1801] That's what we claim to want.

[1802] I think her behavior's corrected.

[1803] For people who want punishment, they want a punitive system.

[1804] That's kind of, I guess, a different mindset.

[1805] Yeah.

[1806] I mean, I guess if you're trying to even out the scale, it's like, well, yes, this rich white woman should probably suffer.

[1807] Yes, suffer like all these poor minority groups are suffering.

[1808] So in that way, I kind of am like, yeah, well.

[1809] But she's going to suffer.

[1810] She'll never be on a TV show again.

[1811] She'll never work again.

[1812] Like her career, she lost her career over that.

[1813] Look, I think it's grotesque.

[1814] Yeah.

[1815] Let's be clear.

[1816] I think it's grotesque they were doing that.

[1817] It's so embarrassing.

[1818] But other people doing comparable crimes.

[1819] they might get community service for four months, six months, maybe they do 30 days in prison or whatever.

[1820] They're allowed to return to being a doctor or a nurse or any occupation.

[1821] So she's going to suffer permanently.

[1822] She's not going to get hired, nor is Felicity Huffman.

[1823] They're going to pay a pretty darn tall price for their indiscretion.

[1824] I would actually say most people that enter the prison system when they come out, they have a very hard time working because we have that on their record.

[1825] If they've entered as an unskilled hourly labor, but if they've entered as Steve Madden, they returned to being Steve Madden.

[1826] Like, Steve Madden was allowed to continue to have a shoe empire.

[1827] Yeah.

[1828] Lori Laughlin would not be allowed to.

[1829] But I'm talking about, like, people who are in jail for, like, small drug crimes.

[1830] But those people didn't enter as lawyers or as shoe company owners.

[1831] I'm saying whatever level job they entered with, they pretty much are going to be able to maintain when they exit.

[1832] Sure.

[1833] I'm just trying to say that in general, it's not fair for just like the rich person who's a movie star to evade that kind of punishment when there are people who have nothing who are in jail for equally or lesser crimes.

[1834] Yeah.

[1835] But a lot of these things are really just, we're debating about what our stomach feels and what our brain feels.

[1836] So Lori Loughlin, do I want 31 ,000 a year coming out of our budget to punish her?

[1837] And my argument is she's going to be punished.

[1838] So don't worry.

[1839] Justice will be administered, why should we pay $31 ,000 to administer justice when justice is already being administered?

[1840] We should have the ability to evaluate that situation.

[1841] But I feel that about so many people in prison.

[1842] So do I. Yeah, drug users.

[1843] I don't think that we should spend $31 ,000.

[1844] I think it's preposterous.

[1845] Yeah.

[1846] Me too.

[1847] But since we are, is it fair if she didn't have to serve?

[1848] It's like, would that be fair?

[1849] Because we are punishing people.

[1850] Yeah, let's make it equal.

[1851] So a lower income person cannot bribe their way into a college for their kids.

[1852] But let's say a lower income person blew the dean of admissions at a school to get their kid in.

[1853] I don't believe that person would be sent to prison over that or jail.

[1854] I don't think that's a jailable offense if you're low income and you do it.

[1855] No, but I don't think that's an actual crime.

[1856] Sucking a dick to get your kid in?

[1857] Yeah.

[1858] How could they?

[1859] You could say that you were just doing that.

[1860] Like you couldn't prove that that was to get them into school.

[1861] You could, because if the kid didn't have the grades or the SAT scores or any of the objectable qualifications, you'd go, oh, well, then how did they get in?

[1862] Oh, well, the dad blew the dean of admissions.

[1863] You go, oh, that's how he got in.

[1864] That becomes quite easy to prove.

[1865] I don't know, though.

[1866] I think it's more great.

[1867] Like, I think you could get out of that far easier than seeing a trail of money.

[1868] Okay, but let's just assume in this hypothetical that the dad said, yep, I blew the dean of emissions.

[1869] The dean of admission said, if you blow me, I'll get your kid in.

[1870] Now, all that's been admitted to, do you think they send that dad to prison?

[1871] I don't for blowing the dean.

[1872] Are you saying you don't think they should or you don't think they would?

[1873] I don't think they would.

[1874] Your argument was she should suffer the same consequences that a person of lower income should suffer.

[1875] Well, my argument is no one should be suffering those consequences.

[1876] I don't think she should be in prison.

[1877] I don't think any of those people should be in prison.

[1878] Okay, but you said if they're going to put people in prison, they should put the rich person in prison.

[1879] And so I'm answering that question.

[1880] I don't think they would put that lower income person in prison for bribing their way into a college.

[1881] I don't know, though.

[1882] I don't know if they would.

[1883] Yeah.

[1884] I think they like putting people in prison, especially like putting minorities in prison.

[1885] Yeah.

[1886] So, I don't know.

[1887] Yeah, just my opinion.

[1888] I don't think they'd send a dad to prison for sucking the dean of admissions off.

[1889] They'd be like, you got your just desserts.

[1890] Everyone knows you blew the dean of admissions.

[1891] Maybe.

[1892] I don't know.

[1893] I don't know either.

[1894] Last thought on the Lori thing is just.

[1895] The crime in what's repugnant is that her kid took the place of someone who deserved to be there.

[1896] That's the injustice.

[1897] But what's interesting is it's a scale.

[1898] It's a sliding scale because the kid who didn't have to work in high school and had more time to study and also had three tutors to help them get a good score on the SAT.

[1899] That person had a bunch of stuff that took away the slot of someone without that stuff.

[1900] Absolutely.

[1901] Yeah.

[1902] It's like a seven on the spectrum or it's a six or whatever it is.

[1903] is it is interesting we're all appalled by the 10 which is the outright buying a slot in there yet there's things pretty close to it that don't seem to bother anyone yeah that's true but in the case of the tutors and stuff like that the kid is still having to put in effort like you could have a tutor and still do horrible yes your parents can put in a lot of energy and money into you but you still have to deliver and these kids did not they didn't do anything but you have to liver with great assistance from people who specialize in how to do well on that test.

[1904] You know, when Hussein was on talking about this, I just think that's a humongous advantage.

[1905] Of course.

[1906] It's not as big of an advantage as your parents put building a library there, but it is a big advantage.

[1907] It's a huge advantage.

[1908] But this doesn't feel like an advantage.

[1909] It just feels like stealing, a little bit of a difference.

[1910] I just think we're putting kind to arbitrary mental barriers on when we're defining something as stealing and when we're defining it as an advantage.

[1911] And it's just a little more permeable to me, especially if I'm a young 16 year old who has two jobs to help support this family of brothers and sisters.

[1912] And there's no way I can do extra curricular activities.

[1913] There's no way I can be on the math team.

[1914] And there's not like that's such a brutally different situation to apply to college in.

[1915] Absolutely.

[1916] But that feels very unjust to me. not as unjust is the Lory thing, but quite unjust.

[1917] Yeah, it is.

[1918] I just remember when we had Dan Savage on did a live show coming out.

[1919] And backstage, he was telling us this very interesting thing, that he spends a lot of time in Grotz, Austria, incidentally, where Swartz and Hammers from.

[1920] He spends a lot of time there.

[1921] He is a really good friend that he is around a lot who's Austrian.

[1922] And the Austrian's always really amused by how Americans speak to wait staff and different positions that are low pain where they're talking to their waiter like, oh, yeah, oh, right, great.

[1923] Oh, thank you so much.

[1924] It's a fusive outpouring of kindness.

[1925] Yeah.

[1926] And they don't do that in Austria.

[1927] And the reason they don't do it, he theorized, which I found really interesting and I think he's right, is the people there get paid a real wage.

[1928] There's no guild.

[1929] Your server is like talking to an architect.

[1930] Yeah.

[1931] They're making a good amount of.

[1932] money and they have great health care and there's nothing to feel bad about.

[1933] You're not carrying a bunch of guilt and I think we carry them around a bunch of guilt and I think that's this bizarre way we're dealing with the guilt, knowing that a lot of the people that are helping us throughout the day are not making it.

[1934] They're barely getting by.

[1935] And so similarly, I think we all know in our hearts that the system's pretty unjust as far as who's going to college.

[1936] So this example became a real pressure release for us.

[1937] These conversations have been going on forever with affirmative action.

[1938] That's the whole point of it is to even out that scale a little bit.

[1939] Yeah.

[1940] But that's a very, and I get it, it's such a daunting problem to fix.

[1941] And it's easy to get apathetic about it because it seems overwhelming.

[1942] Yeah.

[1943] It's, I mean, we are just such a product of luck.

[1944] Yeah.

[1945] Everything.

[1946] Everything in our life is a product of, let's sort of.

[1947] what Hassan was saying.

[1948] He was saying trends and forces.

[1949] But yes, these things that you have no control over that you're lucky or you're not.

[1950] Yeah.

[1951] Yeah.

[1952] He said Egglin Air Force Base is the largest Air Force Base in America.

[1953] But I think it's Fort Bragg.

[1954] Oh, okay.

[1955] Fort Bragg in North Carolina.

[1956] Okay.

[1957] Population 260 ,000.

[1958] Sorry, England.

[1959] Sorry, Eglin.

[1960] When he said, I thought he said Eggland.

[1961] That's what I thought you just said.

[1962] Oh, see.

[1963] Yeah.

[1964] Egglin, E -G -G -L -I -N or E -G -L -I -N.

[1965] Oh, Egglin.

[1966] Egglin.

[1967] Egglin.

[1968] Yeah, it sounds like Eggland.

[1969] It does.

[1970] Mm -hmm.

[1971] Like Jeff Garland.

[1972] Yeah, exactly.

[1973] That's all.

[1974] That's all.

[1975] Yeah.

[1976] Okay, great.

[1977] We got to get back to our lake.

[1978] Yeah, we got to get back to our lake living.

[1979] Last night, there was a very dramatic sky.

[1980] Oh, man. Ooh, doggies.

[1981] Just these huge billowy criss.

[1982] Risp, sharp, rombus cumulus, crowds.

[1983] And then behind those, Chicago.

[1984] Yeah.

[1985] I could see just the peaks of the buildings in Chicago on the shore some.

[1986] It's got to be 60 miles away more.

[1987] 600, maybe.

[1988] Yeah.

[1989] Oh, man, what a beautiful sight that was.

[1990] It was really nice.

[1991] Well, I love you.

[1992] I love you.

[1993] Bye.

[1994] Well, go bye.

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