Maisie Williams: The Painful Past Of A Game Of Thrones Star

[0] They were asking the right questions.

[1] We can stop as much as you want, by the way.

[2] We don't have to carry on.

[3] It's the biggest show on television.

[4] Game of Thrones flipped.

[5] My whole world on its head.

[6] I sometimes worry that I'm like alienated because it will happen when I was so young and like literally from the age of 12 I've been like set for life.

[7] I had a traumatic relationship with my dad and ever since I can remember like I've really struggled sleeping.

[8] It had like met its peak and I was at school I was taken by a teacher to the staff room she was saying like what's happened I think a lot of the traumatic things that were happening I didn't realize that they were wrong I would look around at other kids and be like where does the joy when does that come for me when you were 22 you talked about issues with substance abuse yeah I just had that sense of impending doom and I didn't know how to make it go away I'm going to come and give you a hug.

[9] Without further ado, I'm Stephen Butler, and this is the diary of a CEO.

[10] I hope nobody's listening.

[11] But if you are, then please keep this yourself.

[12] So take me back, Somerset.

[13] What do I need to understand who you are now, what do I need to know about that part of your life?

[14] Well, I, as like a young child before the age of like eight, had quite a traumatic, like, relationship with my dad.

[15] And I don't really wanna go into it too much because it affects my siblings and my whole family.

[16] But, like, that really consumed a lot of my childhood.

[17] Ever since I can remember, like, I've really struggled sleeping.

[18] And I think a lot of the traumatic things that were happening, I didn't realize that they were wrong.

[19] But I knew that, like, I would look around at other kids and be like, why, why, like, why don't they seem to understand this, like, pain or dread or fear?

[20] Like, like, you know, where does the joy?

[21] Like, when does that come for me?

[22] Like, I, you know, I kind of always felt like I felt things very deeply in comparison to other people.

[23] And so when that sort of period of my life ended um i imagined that like you know everything is just like up from here like everything's perfect now um all those things that i was concerned about were actually wrong and like now i'm sort of free um yeah and then you know in different stages in life you realize that there's never like an end destination for that freedom um and it's it kind of comes from within, I guess, like, when are you going to let yourself be free from the pain?

[24] But yeah, that really consumed a lot of my childhood.

[25] That was sort of like what I was identified as, you know, what I identified myself as for a long time.

[26] And then, you know, everything changed and I sort of became this like, you know, character who, uh, who wouldn't let anything bad happen to her or anyone around her.

[27] And yeah, I guess, like, maybe there is some sort of, like, connection between those two things.

[28] Your mother left your father?

[29] Yeah, before I was born, actually.

[30] Well, no, I guess she escaped when I was about four months old.

[31] So it was, you know, bad before that.

[32] And then, yeah.

[33] Have you spoken about this before?

[34] No. I don't know.

[35] I like you.

[36] I don't know.

[37] I feel like this isn't, um, it's something that I've been like learning a lot about recently and I feel like I can speak about it now.

[38] Yeah.

[39] Um, does it, has it taken you time to like to can, I ask the question about, have you spoken about it before?

[40] Because, um, I think at like 25 years old, there was like really foundational things I learned about myself that, that, that I only learn, I mean, you know, sometimes you read something or you hear something and you go, fuck.

[41] That explains, this thing.

[42] So my question there is just like, did it take you time to connect those dots?

[43] Yeah, definitely.

[44] I think that people sort of talk about rewiring, people on your podcast actually speak about rewiring your brain.

[45] But that first, in order to do that, you have to recognize when your brain is doing a pattern that you want to rewire.

[46] And quite often, like, it's already triggered so many things and like you're in a bad mood and you have no idea why.

[47] And it's hard to kind of like trace back from that point so like that awareness um and like finding that kind of for me had to come first like when it really started to I don't know when I really started to understand it it was like capturing those minutes where I was like why does that make me feel really uncertain or angry or like make me want to like shout at someone like what what is that and then you can start to go like no it's okay and work your way back you know so you were seeing like social triggers or or situations where you were you know i saw you i saw you said when you spoke to livers house you said i've always been quite an anxious person yeah and i really reflect on that because i you know i'm not an expert in anxiety i've been anxious myself i've been an anxious person at times myself but um i i've i've always wandered for many years if we're we're born that way or if we're predisposed or if something happens and then we become anxious have you thinking about how you saw sort of social triggers have you connected any dots regarding being an anxious person as you call it to those early years as you've grown up now um yeah i guess i think like a lot of that anxiety as i started to sort of recognize it came from like not really being myself and like then feeling anxious about the way that you're being perceived or whatever but knowing that you're not really being honest and that will of course make you very anxious because if you have no idea who you're projecting then you really have no idea how other people are going to hear it because you don't even know how you mean it and you know that sort of like visage of like I don't know whoever you know, whoever I thought was like capable of like getting through interviews or social like settings or whatever.

[48] And I think that like struggle with identity and like the big questions of like who am I. I think that everyone struggles with that.

[49] But I think that like, you know, there's a period of your childhood where, you know, certain.

[50] situations can really stunt like or just alter forever like who you are going to become um and that's not to say that you can't also just like become a very peaceful and uh you know content and fulfilled person um but like that sort of basic instinct of like what do i what brings me joy you know you've kind of second guess that a lot as a kid and you're not known, you know, whether to trust what you really think or feel or, you know, whatever sort of like mental manipulation.

[51] And that can, yeah, really have like lasting effects.

[52] So yeah, kind of like discovering that and being like, yes, I struggle with, you know, my identity and knowing who I am.

[53] So that brings me anxiety because I don't know who to be in a social situation.

[54] But then also sort of going back, back, back, far enough that you're like, oh, I don't know if that person really exists anymore.

[55] And that's okay because I can find, you know, something.

[56] Yeah, you know, find like a good version of myself.

[57] But yeah, I don't know.

[58] How do you, what do you think about that?

[59] About which part?

[60] Well, I guess, like it feels like a lot of people are trying.

[61] to retreat to like being a child and like the things that brought you joy and like who you are at your core and who you are when no one's looking and um uh but you know can can that that part of you be so damaged from a very a young age that that you could be searching for something that um you know is just for you to make up it's a really interesting question when i've never even ponded before.

[62] I was thinking about, in fact, Lewis Howes, and I think shortly after you had a conversation with him, it would have been, because I know the timeline, he, I think he opened up for the first time.

[63] It's so funny because when I rewatched your conversation with Lewis, you start sharing things that were difficult in your early years.

[64] You don't share anything like this with him.

[65] And then he says to you, he's quite stoic and he goes, yeah, I went through things like that as well.

[66] You're aware of what he went through.

[67] Yeah.

[68] Yeah.

[69] I am now.

[70] So he went through pretty, you know, horrific child abuse at a young age from, I believe, a babysitter, if I'm correct, that was looking after him, that had sexually abused him.

[71] And he talks, my reference is only him talking about how he feels he has to go back and, like, forgive himself, the child that he was and heal himself, heal the child.

[72] Yeah.

[73] So he has, I don't know if you know, but he has his face.

[74] at that age on his wallpaper of his phone and with his therapist he's worked through healing that young version of himself and then moving on to the next to the teenage years and so do I do I know if we can if that child that we're seeking still exists in there I mean my very naive assumption would be that they do yeah are they are they still going to be childlike I don't know yeah there's something quite naive about being childlike which maybe wisdom makes irreversible but when you when you talk about joy you talk about struggling to feel joy at a young age what is that how do I how do I how do I understand those words I think like you know when you watch um kids play um and like there's struggles and there's tiffs and there's like whatever but there's like just like complete inhibition right and it's just like running or it's like going on the slide or it's like I felt like I would often stop in a situation like that I'd be doing something and then I would just stop and be like something awful is going to happen and just like I couldn't continue um do you know a tissue Yeah, maybe.

[75] Jack, could you grab a tissue, please?

[76] We can stop as much as you want, by the way.

[77] We don't have to carry on.

[78] That's a great thing with podcasting.

[79] Keep them on the desk if you want.

[80] Yeah.

[81] Maybe I'll hide them around the other side.

[82] I could put them just like here.

[83] Cool.

[84] Is that that off camera?

[85] Yeah, it's all good.

[86] Yeah, I would just had that sense of impending doom and I didn't know how to make it go away.

[87] um and i had like great memories i don't even know it's hard to remember a lot of them a lot of those times that i felt very free i was actually on my own um but i would never have like thought i was like an introverted person like i always would have thought that i was quite extroverted because um i perform a lot for people you know um but yeah i yeah i struggled.

[88] I've, yeah, struggled with that when I was a kid.

[89] And just thought, like, how do I stop feeling like this and just feel like everything's okay, you know?

[90] But at that age, I'm guessing you didn't know why you felt like that.

[91] So knowing how to go about healing from it is an impossible task, right?

[92] Because that's the point about you can't solve for something that you're not aware of.

[93] Yeah.

[94] Going like nothing's wrong.

[95] Like, nothing is wrong.

[96] Everything's the way that it's supposed to be but it wasn't but I did I just would tell myself that like what is wrong with you like whereas was there an age when you found found out because but I kind of asked this question earlier but was there an eight was there a moment where you found out what was wrong yeah when I was about eight um I was quite like a complex like string of events that happened but basically it had like met its like peak and I was school and I guess I was well I mean obviously I was really struggling um and I don't really not happen but I was taken by a teacher to the staff room and um she was saying like what's wrong you know like what's happened have you are you hungry or she said I don't know yeah are you hungry I said yeah she said did you eat breakfast and I said no and she said oh why not and I said we just didn't have any breakfast and, you know, and then she says, well, you know, do you normally have breakfast?

[97] And he's not really.

[98] And so, you know, the sort of, they were asking the right questions.

[99] It's okay, take a good time.

[100] I'm going to come and give you a heart.

[101] I feel really compelled to give you a hug.

[102] Okay.

[103] No, I do think it's important because I had so many people who loved and cared about me so much, but I'd never been asked the right questions where I could really say what was wrong.

[104] And my mum came to school and picked me up, and my siblings were also at secondary school at the time, and some of them were with mum, and one was not, and they were with dad still, and yeah.

[105] And it was the first time that, like, it was all of the doors were sort of open, and all of these things that we were experiencing.

[106] were like out on the table and it was really really hard because I still wanted to fight and say no like these things aren't bad like you're trying to take me away from my dad and that's wrong you know like um because I was like indoctrinated in a way like you know um I think that's why I'm obsessed with cults because I'm like, I get it.

[107] I get it.

[108] I was in a child cult against my mother.

[109] Yeah, so I really was sort of fighting it for at the beginning.

[110] But basically like my whole world like flipped on its head.

[111] And even though all these things that I was feeling, I thought, oh my God, I'm so glad I don't have to see my dad anymore.

[112] it still was like against everything that I had ever ever knew to be true you know I don't know if I'm being too cryptic no I don't think I am I don't think you are you can be as cryptic as you want to be but yeah I get I understand what you're saying and that's that's all that I need to get the context and you can just talk whatever you about whatever you want to talk about in terms of what makes you comfortable I don't know where your line is Yeah, I'm figuring it out.

[113] So you just, you need that.

[114] When I watch cult documentaries, there's a lot of manipulation that goes on in these documentaries.

[115] There's a lot of fear that causes silence.

[116] And that's usually why people find it, that's often why people find it difficult to leave those situations.

[117] And then when they do have these, like, I always observe this, like, conflicting array of emotions.

[118] Like, they have this love for this person, but at the same time, as you've described it, once out of that situation, they're somewhat, probably, you know, spiritually free and happy to be gone.

[119] So that conflict of emotions always fascinated me, how two truths can almost exist in the same place.

[120] You can feel, you know, so liberated and free.

[121] And at the same time, just like that impending doom is kind of still there where, yeah, it's like all your problems don't just sort of like go away you know um yeah you still like care a lot about that person or you still sort of understand you know the pain or whatever that led to those very very poor decisions as you sit here today at 25 years old how do you feel about your father Um, well, to be honest with you, I've been thinking about this a lot.

[122] Um, and like, I've been trying to do this thing where I stop taking things personally.

[123] And like, not just like, you know, when someone's had a bad day and they like push in front of you in the queue.

[124] But like the big things in life.

[125] Like, what if I said that it was not like, it was not like, It wasn't because of me that that happened.

[126] Like, it, it, if it, if I wasn't there, it would have been something, someone else.

[127] Like, it's not, um, yeah, it wasn't like, because there's something wrong with me that, like, these bad things happened when I was a child.

[128] Is that a thought you had?

[129] Yeah.

[130] Yeah, I felt like there was something inherently wrong with me or us because like we did lots of things wrong all the time, which is like why, you know, you'd be mistreated or whatever because you're like, oh, like we really need to be better at this because we keep doing things wrong and we keep getting in trouble type thing.

[131] but then I was like well you know like and especially well because it was someone you know a parent and I felt like oh they're supposed to like like you and so you know but then I was like well what if like there's just like no connection between like me being you know his daughter and like it could have been like literally anyone like experiencing that pain and it would like still be the same And then I just kind of could separate myself from it a little bit and I could start to sort of reflect on him as a person and be like, what happens that you get so stuck in your mind that you can just like, you know, permanently like mistreat people, you know, what?

[132] Children.

[133] Children.

[134] Like your own children.

[135] but but you know taking that step back and seeing it like more objectively kind of like makes me quite interested in in the guy I don't know him at all um and I'm like what happened to you when you were a kid like who were your parents is this something that you were always like when you were a kid did you like pull the legs off bugs or like you know did this did you learn this like you know these are all the questions that I would ask yeah yeah and so that's kind of like how I feel about now where I'm just like what if like he would make a fascinating documentary and it's like nice to to like you know not feel the the personal pain of that anymore and actually just think like you know I don't know if any of the answers to that will like help me in my journey but it is sort of like a nicer way to think of him than, you know, as like someone who doesn't love me or like me or like whatever.

[136] You know, you talked about that feeling that you were to blame for outcomes in your life that might, well, especially as a relationship earlier as that you weren't, you weren't to blame for.

[137] Were there symptoms of that as you grew up, this kind of the feeling that, you know, when things happen, it was because you did something wrong or you were to blame for things.

[138] Did you feel that as an adult in your teenage years at all?

[139] Yeah, definitely.

[140] I think that like I really wanted to control a lot of things that you just can't control because like if I don't then if I'm not worrying or thinking about this or like wanting to control this then it's all going to fall down and like then I'll blame myself and it'll be like a you know something that I could have done better or should have done differently.

[141] yeah i feel like i guess it was more just like trying to control like the uncontrollable and that then leading to like another way that i could like beat myself down you know it's interesting because i've seen so many other interviews you've done and without knowing that early context a lot of those other things i was hearing didn't make sense yeah yeah not that any you know it makes sense as maybe an interesting use of words but it always felt like there was part of your story that was untold yeah it you know I think when I was like 12 and I'd done a bit of Game of Thrones and was doing interviews then like the first interviews that I'd ever done I remember people sort of being like but you're so young like how do you pretend like how do you show this pain like you've just seen like the death of your father or like how do you know that like how do you act that sort of like fury and it's just like in my head was like that's a really stupid question because I've known how that feels but like you know it's like I don't know it's something nice to just like leave in the past I guess but it's it's hugely influenced like every everything that I do as an actor, like I get to access all of that confusion and pain in my job and I get to like really feel it in like every fiber of my being.

[142] But there's no like consequence and there's no like, you're not really shouting at anyone or hurting someone or it's like it's all pretend.

[143] But like the emotion is real and like just being able to like let that out is something that I didn't do for a long time.

[144] And so it's like it just all sort of came to the surface.

[145] And I guess like holding, you know, the early part of my story, like, to myself.

[146] It's also just because I haven't really understood it the way that I have now.

[147] And I sure I'll understand it, you know, far better in the future.

[148] But I feel like now there's like some sort of close.

[149] closure to it where the journey might help other people, whereas before it was just like pain, pain, pain, pain, pain, pain, pain, pain, pain, pain.

[150] And no like, like, okay, we're through the other side.

[151] Yeah, it was just like other problems that come from like the same problem, problem, problem.

[152] Yeah.

[153] But yeah, I mean, it's like, you know, going into that audition to play aria stark i was sort of surrounded by girls that like were joyous and like were free and like like they were kids there were kids who were happy and um you know had you know had whatever they had um and i thought wow i really um you know here we go again like gonna be a disappointment but you know for that moment actually that was that was what they needed and so that was sort of like a moment in my life where I was like huh maybe this thing isn't all bad maybe there can be something like beautiful that comes from you know this this part of myself that I find like unnatural like or like just different to other kids Here we go again.

[154] I'm going to be a disappointment.

[155] Yeah.

[156] Yeah.

[157] What do you mean by that?

[158] So when you got the role, you presumed that you were going to let people down?

[159] Yeah.

[160] Yeah.

[161] No. I just like going into the room, I meant like, oh no, I'm not going to be what they're looking for.

[162] But I did end up being what they were looking for.

[163] But like, you know, I just...

[164] Presumed the worst a little bit.

[165] Yeah, yeah, yeah, of course.

[166] Yeah.

[167] I don't know.

[168] Like, did you, did you like always feel, ever feel like disappointing?

[169] Yeah.

[170] Yeah, of course.

[171] Yeah, of course.

[172] There's been moments in my life where I've definitely feel like I've let myself down and other people down.

[173] And it's not a good feeling to sit with.

[174] But I think I've tried to channel it into, um, into me. speaking myself.

[175] I actually went for an audition at 14 years old to do the Junior Apprentice.

[176] You know The Apprentice?

[177] The TV show.

[178] So they launched the Junior Apprentice and I went for the first audition, got through to the final 20 and then I got, long story, but I got this email from the BBC saying that someone had leaked to the press that I was going on the show.

[179] So they said, this has jeopardised your chances of going on the show.

[180] And I don't come from a family where we had much.

[181] So going back to Plymouth and telling everyone, you know, like all my friends are like, oh, he's going to London and going back and saying like, they've just called me and told me, I'm not on the show, was devastating for a long time, lots of tears.

[182] I felt like a disappointment of that phase in my life.

[183] And several times subsequently, but I think I've always been somewhat optimistic going into situations.

[184] I generally feel like I've got nothing to lose.

[185] And I think maybe that's a bit of a privilege, to be honest.

[186] I think mindset privilege is a real thing, just like perspective privilege, something we don't talk about enough.

[187] And had I been in an early situation where someone was continually telling me the things that I were doing were wrong or not good enough or whatever, I can quite easily see how I would anticipate that feedback going into anything where feedback was going to be given.

[188] And it's actually pretty remarkable.

[189] I mean, you know, because those early experiences, you would assume would smash someone's like self -esteem pretty severely and make them kind of retreat into safe places.

[190] One of the safest places is where we don't get feedback and someone doesn't shout at us or, you know, but that first, this was your first audition, right, Game of Thrones?

[191] Yeah, well, one of, I had an audition before that, which I also was very excited about and then didn't get.

[192] So that was like my first, like, you know, professional rejection.

[193] But you were still putting yourself out there in situations where you could be rejected.

[194] Yeah, definitely.

[195] And I think it was because I, The only time that I really felt that joy that I saw in other people was when I was like dancing or performing.

[196] And there was this feeling that I would get that I was like, this is like, I feel like human, you know?

[197] And so I was like, I've just got to do anything I can to like do this forever.

[198] And so from a very young age, I was like, I want to go to stage school and I want to, yeah, I'm happy to live.

[199] leave everything and go and do that and um yeah so i i really every opportunity was like um yeah i guess that a little part that you said like i've got nothing to lose it was like yeah on the other side of this could be absolutely everything so i i have to do it i read this book i say read i watch the summer on youtube but i'll just say it sounds more impressive i read this book called the body holds the score I don't know if you've ever heard of it and one of the most fascinating things about it is it talks about how acting and moving the body in like yoga have been proven to be the best forms of antidepressant like without you know taking us a sororice or anything they've been proven to and I remember thinking acting is a great antidepressant how is that possible but what you're saying now rings it talks about how it kind of disassociates from identity when we act and so what you're saying now seems to validate what I read.

[200] I'd love to read that because that's like exactly what I instinctively like discovered like it just happened and I thought ah like this is what I'm supposed to do have you ever figured out why why acting was a because it all I say the word escapism but it why it was so liberating for you is it because is it escapism?

[201] Is it because it disassociates you from your own identity?

[202] Is it because you can create this new.

[203] There's like two parts of it.

[204] It was like how I felt like within my body, like everything floated away.

[205] And like the way that it felt to move my body or the way that it felt to like contort my voice or like whatever, it just like that feeling when you're like, can't stop laughing.

[206] It was just like incredible.

[207] And then there was the way that it made other people feel.

[208] and I guess like with acting with dancing it was like it was very it was very much about the way that it felt and not necessarily the way that it looked or like how other people would experience it but with acting it's like you get that sort of two -way thing and I also saw the joy that it would bring other people and like I guess like you don't you're like not disappointing you're like making someone laugh or you're making someone happy or you're like and that was like you know fun and new i was going to say game of thrones was a smash hit but it feels like a slight understatement i feel like smash hit is that's yeah it yeah it's huge the fame piece i've had a smidge of fame like seven people know who i am right and sometimes it can be a little bit difficult.

[209] So I can't even, you know, I can't even imagine, especially with the sort of confounding factors of your age, just trying to figure out who you are, becoming famous for being a character on a huge show, being in your sort of adolescent years, all of these things, all at the same time.

[210] When you look back and, you know, and remember you're saying about how people were like forecasting your downfall because of all those factors.

[211] Yeah, yeah.

[212] Yeah.

[213] Actually, the strangest thing about it, the hardest thing, I think, was, like, needing to articulate who I was and what I loved, the things I didn't like and what I had an opinion on and what, like, you know.

[214] Yeah, that I remember at the time being like, oh, gosh, I really don't know anything about anything.

[215] I really need to know these things.

[216] I need to, you know, and then, like, you know, years later you go like, oh, I said that my favorite film was this and like, that's not true.

[217] And it's like you don't need to know any of that stuff.

[218] No, like it's all, it's all just like a journey, right?

[219] It's all like there's never like an end.

[220] What advice would you give that person, 13 year old, amazing?

[221] To be honest with you, like I wish that I'd have just like, trolled it all a bit more.

[222] And like whatever, like instead of really digging deep and going, oh, what is the real, just like whatever you feel that day, that's okay and it can change the next day.

[223] Because that is just like life.

[224] You don't have to be beholden to anything that you've said or done.

[225] You can let it all go and like rip up the rulebook.

[226] I hated London, move back to Manchester, and went to New York and then you know, actually I'm going to go back to London.

[227] Like this is what I'm going to do now.

[228] And it's not going to be like something that you're like, oh, I wish I hadn't have done this.

[229] Like, you're like, no, this is what I want now.

[230] And that's like, that's just sort of the way it is.

[231] So I kind of wish that I'd have just like, you know, not just like tortured myself to know, like, what is the real answer to these like silly, fun questions?

[232] And then been like, oh, no, I've like portrayed myself all wrong.

[233] This is not who I am.

[234] Because it's just, it's like, it's like water.

[235] would you would you change the timing of the events that happened in your life if you if you could like acting when i was super young um the only thing i really feel like we didn't have a lot growing up but like i've i've never you grew up on a council in a council house and like like you know always had like a awareness of how hard my mom worked like raising us giving us everything that you she did put in field on the table, you know, but like I never, I remember like when I was sort of like 18 and a lot of my friends started going to uni, getting jobs, whatever, I remember there was, I was like I've never, even though I know what that struggle was like growing up, like I've never like struggled to get a job or struggle to make rent or anything like that.

[236] And I think, not that I would change that, of course, like, I'm so fortunate, but I guess, like, I never wanted, I never want to lose sight of, like, the perspective of, like, just how fortunate that I've been and, like, just how tone deaf it is for me to believe that I, like, would understand what it's like to, you know, to struggle to make rent and want to be a creative person and not know whether to get, like, a sensible.

[237] job or to like because I don't know what that struggle is like at all um so yeah I didn't know that like I I sometimes worry that I'm like alienated in in some ways because it will happen when I was so young and like literally from the age of 12 I've been like set for life and that's like very different to how I was like before that age is there a mixture of emotion surrounding that like being set for life at 12 um as you grow up now I've sat here with a couple of guests who come from like a council a councilor stay or grew up in in very difficult situations and they often express this kind of i remember jack mate doing it expressed this kind of almost guilt's a bit of an interesting word but like why did i i remember jack saying to me i can make thousands and thousands of pounds from just making youtube videos and i watched my dad not make the same amount of money in like a year or whatever and i could just make it from one youtube video and he would go back and feel he'd meet someone i remember him saying he met someone in a pub that was like a cancer doctor and he's making more than them just sat at home.

[238] Anyone expresses this kind of like, I don't know, guilt or injustice.

[239] Have you ever felt that?

[240] Definitely.

[241] Like, just, yeah, like, the guilt around, like, allowing yourself to have nice things or do nice things because you're, like, able to.

[242] Like, I felt like when I was a kid, everything stopped happening and all my problems were going to go away.

[243] And then, like, all my problems didn't go away.

[244] And then I was set for life when I was 12 and I thought, all my problem was going to go away.

[245] And I was like, well, it's not like that unless all of my friends and family are that way too.

[246] Because, like, how are we all supposed to, like, be okay if the only one person is okay?

[247] And, you know, you give people what you can, but you don't see the pain, take that take the pain away for another person, doesn't take the pain away for yourself.

[248] like and then you realize that like actually life is something else entirely and like the biggest problem that a lot of people face is making money and like making enough money to live and like support their family but being able to do those things isn't in it like the only thing that like makes you happy like when you take that problem away there's sometimes still a very hard discussion that you have to have with yourself where it's like, yeah, like a fundamental chat where you have to tell yourself that, well, I don't know, there's a lot of things.

[249] I don't want to take away from the fact that, like, having money enables you to, like, even be able to comprehend or, like...

[250] Another set of problems, yeah.

[251] Yeah, yeah.

[252] Like, I know that that in itself is like an incredibly privileged position to be in um uh but like money won't take the pain away it will take like the stacking bills or you know um or the fear of like losing a house you know um it doesn't undo trauma you can't buy you know uh trauma away yeah yeah yeah yeah even if you can keep the heat on and the electricity and feed yourself there's still there's still for many people another level of trauma which money can't seem to solve for directly um the the post game of three you know i i remember saying he was one of the guys from one direction leon pain and um he talked about how post one direction he has this identity which is he is a part of a boy band and then leaving that it can be quite troublesome psychologically who and i think he talked about the same thing which just like, who am I, where do I belong?

[253] How do I then go and, like, find out who that person is and start creating for that and not just being this character, this, you know, member of a boy band that the world knows before.

[254] Did you ever feel that post Game of Thrones?

[255] Yeah, in a way.

[256] But I felt like I had got to a point already within being in the show that I was like, oh, I feel like I'm, like, cosplaying as this, like, person I've created.

[257] And I don't think that this really is who I am.

[258] so sort of leaving the show meant I could leave that as well um you know I kind of like wanted to like say the right thing and do the right thing and like act like I had everything figured out and like be a good role model and you know which is all very good things to want but it's like it was it wasn't like very authentic it was like just like trying to be liked I guess right and then you're like oh I actually you know I don't want to do things that make people like happy because like I want to do things to make me happy and like I want to you know represent myself the way that makes me feel most comfortable and not like just the way that's most like palatable or like whatever and so I I'd already got to the point where I was like oh this isn't really me and I'm like desperate for something to just like drastically change so as I can like cut from that and and that's sort of what happened when the show ended then also sort of sped up by the pandemic and being like in like solitary um so i was kind of like very ready for that and it wasn't like oh who am i i was kind of like oh who could i be you know 21 21 22 years old how are those years for you so this is like around the time the show is concluding yeah included when you're 22 yes when it came out yeah um i just didn't really go out a lot and i i I just felt quite I just I don't know it was like the most successful it was ever going to be and it was like most people would like recognize you on the street and and like I had just got so like rehearsed at like oh thank you that's so nice and I just like everything I said and felt and did it was just like oh none of this is like I just I felt like very going through the motions of life where it was like Yeah.

[259] Acting again.

[260] Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[261] It wasn't the hardest, like most awful and traumatic.

[262] Like, oh, it was, like, terrible.

[263] It wasn't.

[264] It was fine.

[265] But I just, like, I knew that something better was coming.

[266] At that age, though, 20 years old, how'd you feel about yourself?

[267] Oh, I didn't really have a very, like, good opinion of, like, myself and myself image.

[268] It's, I forget that.

[269] I really didn't like myself that much.

[270] um i don't know i just i just told myself that i was like awful and disgusting and like an attractive and unkind and like just like not a good person and like unlikable i just told myself that like every single day and so in ways i sort of became like that because um you just like beat yourself into like a mess you know mind is quite powerful in that way yeah really powerful mm -hmm fern talks to me about this a lot i know you you did her podcast right yeah yeah i listened to her chatting about this on your podcast yeah yeah do you know the origin of those of those of those of that self -story like where it originates from obviously you have a a thread that most people don't have which is the world is giving feedback on you every day now because you're in the press and you're a young woman and we know that that can be a pretty vicious thing but it do you know the origin of those self stories i feel like i i felt self -conscious like even before all of that so it definitely before like fame and so it definitely was enhanced by that but i think it came a lot earlier um and i'm actually still trying to figure this out like at the moment with my therapist we're trying to really trace that back.

[271] And a lot of this, like, has come, a lot of the discovery has come through meditation.

[272] I've been doing a lot of transcendental meditation.

[273] And, like, there's something about going into that state that, like, brings up, like, a little ticket.

[274] And I go, ah, like, that's, but, but I haven't quite figured out the answer to this one yet, or where it, like, initially stems from.

[275] But I've definitely felt, like, embarrassed of myself or ashamed or, like, you know, thought, oh, like, I'd be playing at a kid's house and thinking, like, their parent thinks that I'm, like, awful.

[276] I'm, like, the child that all parents don't want their kids to hang out with.

[277] Like, I've just felt this way about myself, and I was, like, you know, I wasn't trying to get them to do, like, naughty things or anything.

[278] I just was, like, a kid that was just like, but I thought, you know, I'm, I'm, like, I'd go to someone's house and I'd, like, my shoes, like, maybe they're not in the right place, and I haven't put my bag in the right, and, this parent is going to like not like me or like whatever i i've like felt that like like self -awareness to that degree where i've like critiqued and like beat myself up like since i was very very small yeah i don't really know i don't know where it comes from yet i'll let you know well the question i i naturally ask is when when was the first time someone told you those i mean even the example of like oh god have i put my shoes in the wrong place what happens you know what happens if they're in in the wrong place and what's the consequence of my shoes being in the wrong place because me growing up if my shoes were in the wrong place there's not really a consequence for that no you know yeah yeah i don't know well i have some theories on it um but i don't know it can it doesn't concern just me so i don't know yeah Yeah.

[279] Just like I think that I've like I've witnessed like people just feeling like just them existing in one spot is like them just taking up too much room in this world.

[280] And I think that I've like just taken on a piece of that where like just living and breathing like you're too much and like you're irritating.

[281] so but it's not true and if anyone ever feels like that it's not true because we can know these things are objectively not true but it just this is the thing that really fascinates me is like how can we have how can we in one on one hand know that something is not true yes seemingly we're not able to completely eradicate that story because that you know i i used to think definitely used to believe before doing this podcast that these stories we believe this evidence we have, whether it's wrong, true or false about ourselves, I used to believe that there was some way of just, like, erasing it.

[282] And you just, you do this, you do this, you tap your head, you wiggle your stomach like that, and then it's gone.

[283] Go to therapy twice, you do this, spin around, and it's gone.

[284] But no matter, like, I don't think I've ever met a guest on this podcast that has gone through some kind of traumatic early experience in their life and has ever erased it, ever.

[285] People will say they've built new evidence which counteracts it so that the new evidence makes the decisions in their life but it's still there and traumatic events can make it flare up I'm one of like I consider myself to be one of those people where I've got to be very aware of my my triggers because you know they might take over the control room once in a while and start calling the shots so I feel like um I feel like just like experiencing it all in the moment is interesting and like not sort of like predicting that there's like an end to it but you go like huh I have been in this situation before and like last time I wasn't aware of these triggers and now I see exactly what's what wants to happen and I'm not going to do it and like there's the piece of your brain that's like actively making those decisions and going but then there's the like I don't know consciousness or like you know the spirit that then observes it and goes huh like what happens next like you're playing a board game right and like something happens and then like you're sort of above it and you go where will this go next and every time that your brain doesn't manage to do that it's not like going straight back to that place that point even though like that's the way your body's reacting it's like you're still at this point in the journey of life and this is how you're experiencing it in this moment and like it's not like oh you failed at like healing because like there's no end to it it's just you know in this moment, what can you learn?

[286] Your brain has gone back there, even though, like, previously you've managed to avoid this, or you've managed to sort of, like, avoid a trigger or, like, you know, rewire or something.

[287] But it hasn't this time.

[288] So it's like, what can we learn from looking at it this time?

[289] How do I see it differently to a time when I would have, like, done this before?

[290] And it just, it keeps going.

[291] Like, every minute is like an opportunity to, like, see where it will go next um and it will never be erased because like it's a vital part of who you are and like without it like you're you would be an entirely different person it's like what is that film um eternal sunshine of the spotless mind he like gets his relationship removed from his brain basically well yeah i don't know if you see i haven't know but yeah i've heard about this thing called the eraser test, which they do on people, which just sounds exactly the same.

[292] Yeah.

[293] It's important.

[294] It gives you, it gives you, you know, all of the tools to make decisions in your life.

[295] If I could give you an eraser, would you use it?

[296] Not a single piece.

[297] Why?

[298] Because I feel, I think that there's a point in everyone's life, where they experience firsthand that life is extremely unfair.

[299] And it can happen at any point.

[300] And it's unavoidable, I think.

[301] Well, I don't know.

[302] This maybe isn't, in a few years, I might have a different answer to this question.

[303] But the things I experienced when I was a child, no person should ever experience at any point in their life.

[304] but it's taught me so much and I feel this like complex like like a deep emotion like these complex a deep emotions that are ultimately what I use every single day as an actor and um I can I can I can recall those things and I'm I to know that.

[305] I'm grateful for that.

[306] I'm grateful to understand the deepest pain and fear and also like the most liberating joy and freedom.

[307] And like maybe you don't have to go through those awful, awful things to feel that, but I did.

[308] And, you know, this spectrum of emotions that are like within me, I feel like incredibly fortunate for, because I think that that is something that's different about me. So you go through that phase after being 20, you go through quite significant, what's the word, self -discharaging, self -hate, as I've heard you describe it.

[309] You find it hard to think or say nice things about yourself.

[310] Have you overcome that?

[311] Because Because when you did that interview with Lewis, you were talking as if it was in the past.

[312] Yeah, I desperately wanted it to be.

[313] And I still do.

[314] I think that I've got like a lot better at it.

[315] But, you know, whenever, whenever, you know, I sort of fall back into pain or whatever, it always comes back to like this fundamental feeling that like I'm just not.

[316] worth like any of it like I'm just like not worthy of like you know and that's like it's like it's hard to combat that when you're like well but I'm really really talking to myself differently and I'm really trying to like put up boundaries and I'm trying to really respect myself and like do you know treat myself with some respect and then you just like still get to this point where you're like so that's like difficult and like that is something that I struggle with and I have like you know periods of a long time where that doesn't happen and then you know periods where it comes back again but yeah just like keep combating it and telling myself that it's not true and that I am like I'm worthy of everything in life, of whatever I want from life.

[317] Has anything helped, truly?

[318] Not like, you know, we say, oh, it is helped.

[319] Here's five tips to help you.

[320] Bullshit, bullshit, we write in our books and stuff.

[321] But has anything truly helped to advance that feeling of worthiness?

[322] Yeah, I meditation and spirituality, which, two things I didn't have a relationship with for my whole life up until um 2021 so yeah five minutes ago five minutes yeah so just last year um everything everything really changed after that point i you did mushrooms didn't you no it was it was literally just medit transcendental meditation um and and then like a couple of like very like surreal life changing spiritual experiences just like in day to day life like not high or anything um that I just like couldn't ignore and I felt like oh I'm like I'm not alone like you know like there's something else um even on like the hardest days like there's something here that's like gonna be there like gonna you know take care of me um yeah and so that's like easier to then just like keep going you know when you were 22 you talked about um previously having issues with substance abuse uh yeah well yeah did you talk about that or have i just inferred that from You use the word substance and anything.

[323] I mean, I feel like I spoke about this a little bit on Lewis.

[324] Yeah.

[325] But like, I don't want to undermine it, but I guess who might say, like, what normal teenagers do and what normal teenagers don't do.

[326] But, like, you know, I, like, like, took a lot of party drugs and, like, partied when I was, like, a teenager.

[327] And I was in the position.

[328] where like I could buy more but I didn't really do that you know to a terrible degree we all partied I yeah yeah and but but it was like definitely something that I was like I need to stop doing this if I want to like feel happiness um because that's a slippery slope especially things like very accessible things like alcohol even yeah you know I've had people very close to me that have have become alcoholics because of you know trauma they've been through and stuff like that and do you drink now What's your relationship like with alcohol and stuff?

[329] No, not really.

[330] I mean, I don't, I'm not like sober, but I don't, I don't really drink like in the house or like on a weeknight type thing.

[331] It's usually like with dinner or like, you know, at a gig or with friends or, yeah.

[332] But yeah, a lot of that is like quite, was quite a welcome, like, release, I guess.

[333] It wasn't like something that I You were so busy as well Struggled with If you're filming like 250 Filming days per season Or per year or something Yeah I mean the whole production Oh the whole production okay But yeah yeah exactly It was it was like hot It was you know Very busy schedule A lot of sleep needed to do To get through it Before we start recording We talked a bit about Rubin Yeah Your voice changed when I mentioned Rubin And you're wearing a shirt that he, a t -shirt that he designed?

[334] Yes.

[335] Created.

[336] Yeah.

[337] Inspired by these artists called Jean -Claude and Christo.

[338] It's dope.

[339] My husband and wife who wrapped a bunch of iconic landmarks and buildings in fabric.

[340] So cool.

[341] Yeah, it's quite cool.

[342] It's very me. So when I'm not wearing more black to try and be stuic and ominous in this podcast, how is, how is, how has it been going through trying to figure out romantic love that's a that was a very difficult thing for me as I talked about earlier but how has it been for you what's that journey been like um I think that I I definitely like resonated when you spoke about um like rejecting a lot of like relationships friendships or whatever because it's like cringe or like not real or like whatever.

[343] I feel like I definitely spent a lot of time doing that and I never really confronted um the the part of myself that um I don't know it was like desperate to love and be loved but I didn't really know how or didn't really know what that looked like or whatever um I don't really know how deep to go with this I never like had relationships where I was like mistreated but that was mostly because like my trauma response was like whenever there was like any hint of like I don't know conflict I was like I'm out like no I don't I've seen this one before and I'm not going to be hoodwinked by this but like the truth is it was like they were just like nice people and I just ran away like you know and and cut off like whatever emotions were there.

[344] I'm just like, I'm really sorry.

[345] Like, it's not really going to work type thing.

[346] And then, you know, with confronted with someone like Ruben who.

[347] Confronted.

[348] He's like, stop.

[349] I think that I met someone who, whenever I would start doing that and start going like, oh, they, he, like, saw within me and was like you see what you're doing like you're you're like trying to sabotage yourself again and like you can do that like I'm not going to stop you yeah it was the first time that like someone was patient enough you know even though you're really trying to push them away to be like that's fine like I'm not trying to like tell you not to but like just observe what is happening right now and like you can sleep on it fine like you can sleep on it for a month if you want to fine like whatever and it was the first time that yeah i i realized this pattern that i hadn't been able to capture like catch before and um yeah it's been incredible it's been like four years now and we live together and um i've like never never knew that like peace and joy and like happiness and like like coexisting with another person could like be this way.

[350] I never saw this in my life and like it's just all new and like yeah all beautiful.

[351] So interesting how sometimes it takes a certain person to like get over that wall you know and it's funny because I feel the exact same way we try and stop people getting over the because it feels like self -defense.

[352] It's ultimately self -sabotage, but we try and prevent them climbing the wall, but then if that person can get in, they can go about writing a new set of evidence.

[353] You know, we talked about evidence.

[354] That wall is essentially evidence.

[355] It's like, it's a shield built on faulty evidence from another experience.

[356] If they get over it, they can help us go on the journey of making new evidence, but it's very difficult to get over.

[357] and then eventually something they do can just back get inside that that last line of defense and it's good when they do right because you can learn how wrong you were about so many things you believed and then you go like wow every single thing that i've like define myself as like it can all be different and like that's like real freedom i i think like yeah just one of those little pieces where yeah everything you thought you knew about the world just like changes you can then be like what else am i wrong about or like what else not like even right or wrong it's like what other ways can i like experience this like what are the how else can yeah like what new sort of like possibilities are there for like who I am and what I'm going to do who are you and what are you going to do I am a a I'm like a kind and sensitive person and I want and I want to and I want to like I want to like I want other people to feel happy like I want to I can't like bring like make people happy but like I want to I like am considerate of like people around me and like how they might be feeling or whatever why is that difficult to say i don't know i don't know i don't know if i had to like really think about it maybe it's like like um if i if that's like really who i am at my core which like i i really feel like i'm speaking from that there's pain there because why was i made to like feel like i was such a monster you know yeah it's painful because I think like if I take away all of the things that I project and like oh like I'm someone who like speaks their mind and like I don't care what you think but I like take all of that away and I'm like who am I really and I actually just like you know like someone who's quite sensitive and like wants to make you know want to be considerate of the people around them like why why why do you just like keep putting things in front of you that are going to stop you from just like being that when who you truly are isn't a bad thing like there's aren't bad qualities to have as a person so why like why you know why am I so ashamed of that or like whatever you know like why yeah why why am I tripping myself up to like not be that maybe because like once that wasn't good enough right and I'm telling myself like you know that's not good enough Yeah.

[358] It seems like it makes sense as an explanation.

[359] Yeah.

[360] I was thinking, as you're saying, I was thinking, well, you know, if you've, if at one point you had to be someone else, or you had to be, you had to meet expectations in order to be told that you were good enough, expectations that were unmeatable.

[361] You might spend your life dancing from one expectation to another just trying to please the world's expectations and I know you know now because I've heard you talk about you about it that expectations are really trying to meet social expectations anyway really are the slippery slope isn't quite the word but but it is quite i think slippery slip is maybe a good phrase to use because it's all down from there isn't it once you start playing that game it's this self -destructive spiral down to a place that's hard to climb out of like maybe i don't value just like like just kindness and consider like consider like considerate like uh consider in other people.

[362] I'm just spitballing on this, by the way.

[363] Yes, so am I. What makes you think you don't value in other people?

[364] Well, just because I have this other sort of theory that I've been like stewing for a while where it's like you hate the, like you despise the most, like what you are or like you're, you reject the most like who you are inside.

[365] That would make sense.

[366] if who you were was rejected, right?

[367] If you were told that who you were is not a good person and that is a belief that you have, then if you see that in other people, you'd think, well, that's not a good person.

[368] Yeah.

[369] Yeah.

[370] Wait, can you see that again?

[371] Sometimes it takes me and say.

[372] That's fine.

[373] I'm just a bit boiling as well.

[374] But you said that you kindness was a quality that you in other people either didn't, you felt you didn't like.

[375] Yeah, maybe.

[376] Maybe it's something I don't, like, value enough.

[377] I don't, like, if I don't think it's, I'm worth, like, if it's mutual -worthy.

[378] Right.

[379] Directions, in a sense, because you were that and it was negatively reinforced.

[380] Yeah.

[381] Yeah.

[382] I'm just guessing, but.

[383] Yeah.

[384] I guess we both are.

[385] Yeah.

[386] What is success to you?

[387] If you, you know, if you look back in 10 years from now and say, I was successful over those last 10 years, what would that be?

[388] well there's like a lot of like tangible things that I want to do with my career um no no right okay so yeah just like exactly yeah yeah but like I mean I guess success would be like understanding like knowing in my soul that like I deserve any of any of those things or like like just uh um feeling adequate what is success well I've I've already said that I don't feel like it's a destination right it's like happening every second it's not like it can't look I can't stand on the other side of success and look back and be like well look at that moment it's like what you look back on it's every like every time you're at a crossroads or a decision and like how what did you choose to do that's all you can control it's like what's happening right now like are you going to choose this path or this path like are you going to behave one way or another way are you going to do the things that you don't like about yourself and continue to do them or are you going to like do it differently and you're going to like talk about yourself in a different way like and that's like it's every second and and there's no other side to it um i don't know maybe enlightenment if you if you believe that but it's about the journey you're 35 years old you're sat here again and you go those last 10 years yeah they were a good 10 years yeah which I'm sure you will say but if we're sat here you're 35 years old I'm like I'm dead by then I'm like 75 or something I'm just turned 30 and I'm like, I'm having a crisis.

[389] I'll be 40, so.

[390] I love all my 40 -year -old listeners, thank you.

[391] I can subscribe.

[392] But you're 35.

[393] I'm sat here and I'm 40.

[394] We're looking back on the last 10 years and we're going, yeah, that was really, really a great 10 years.

[395] What would have had to have happened in your estimation for that to be true?

[396] I guess, like, like control.

[397] No, control.

[398] That sounds like, ugh.

[399] like I um I guess it would be like looking back at all of the moments and you know seeing seeing the conscious decisions that were made rather than just like acting on impulse right I guess success would be like that was a point that was really challenging and like I feel really proud that I didn't slip back into that old habit or I didn't like you know I didn't like just go completely.

[400] selfish and think like oh my problems are the worst in the world like I just like had a bit of perspective and I like pick myself up and I kept going like I guess that's like I would look back on those moments and feel like those decisions like would define those 10 years and I'd be like proud like proud of of that um yeah do you have do you have a do you have a sense of mission about you at all mission definitely I mean the the freedom of on, like, the joy that I feel through performing.

[401] And I'm, I've, like, it's changed my life, right?

[402] And like, we're at a place where, you know, there's a lot of people who want to, like, you know, make art, creative people who want to sustain a lifestyle of, like, making art and, like, you know um whether that be acting singing you know writing uh and now i guess like the mission is like i want to build companies or like um you know work with people and like kind of continue the ethos of like um you know pushing creative people to be able to sort of like sustain a life of like you know creative work because I'm like in a very fortunate position where I do what I love and what I do also brings me money and the way that the work makes me feel is like the best thing ever and like that those like three things I think are like a foundational piece of like being a like a human and like it's like should not.

[403] not be as hard as it is for like people to be in that position and um i when i when i when i'm like down about like the world and like like whether it's the government the environment or like like anything um i like kind of wonder i'm like what if like more people could do what they love for a living like would we actually be in like just in a better place like not that those things like influence any of these like poor decisions but like I see like so much there's a lot of pain like there's a lot of pain in the world and like life causes people a lot of pain and I and I um yeah I just I feel um for like you know art and like expression through art and like channeling like creativity I wonder if that would contribute to making the world a better place I want for that to contribute to making the world a better place.

[404] You're a very different person to the person I watched in all of the previous interviews.

[405] Yeah, well, I'm still the same person, but I definitely have a different perspective.

[406] When I watched, because you did a few interviews about three, four years ago, and in those interviews, just like, I don't know what it was, you were very, very high energy.

[407] do you know what I mean like very very high energy you seem to yeah exactly very that yeah yeah yeah you seem to just be very considered and what's the right word very considered and a bit more calm then oh now now yeah yeah yeah I think that that's like exactly how I feel and like It's so, like, it's so exhausting, like, performing in that way.

[408] It's not fulfilling.

[409] It's not real.

[410] It was, like, I guess I was that way as, like, an escape from, from the, like, the choir.

[411] Like, I didn't know what was going to be in there when I, like, stopped.

[412] Like, I think that it's, like, quite a scary.

[413] Even though, like, on the other side of, like, self -discovery or, like, trauma healing, like, on the other side of it is, like, the answer to all of your problems.

[414] Like, it's terrifying.

[415] It's terrifying to look inside you because you've always told yourself that, like, you're not good enough and da -da -da.

[416] And, like, it's terrifying because you're worried you're going to look inside and be like, oh, all of those things were true.

[417] But no, it's terrifying to be like, wait.

[418] maybe like I am actually worth like worthy of like a good life like and maybe I'm like stopping myself from doing that like that's a crime that's not like and I think I mean it's like I've said this a lot but it is a journey but I think it's it's it's like a scary thing to start buying off and then once you start buying off then you start to realize like how selfish that you've been and you don't like yourself for like a number of reasons but then you start to it's like not other reasons to dislike yourself but it's like you just I don't know I feel like I like there's you have one life and like and like and I've been spending all of this time like stopping myself from doing it and like that's awful of myself to do that but it's also to do that yourself it's also just like a waste of all of that and there's like that other perspective um yeah but yeah just like stopping and having that having that sort of um conversation i guess like with myself has like it's changed everything it's changed like and it's been so much better now so much better and it's less tiring so many people don't don't want to go near that onion yeah you know they don't want to they don't want to go near it and it's funny because i i i you know sometimes with my own naivety or my own um mindset privilege or because i'm someone that loves introspection i'm like go on peel it back go on peel it why won't you peel it back go on let's go to therapy let's fucking talk about it yeah you know i must be a pretty difficult friend to have if you don't want to peel back layers because i only want to peel back i don't small talk so yeah yeah but I sometimes encounter people that don't want to peel back the layers and it's frustrating because you you see the consequences of unpeeled back layers everywhere in their behavior and you think well you just need to peel back the layers and you'll find the source once you know what the source is then you can go about solving against it or understanding it um but yeah I don't know what to say to people when they don't they don't I guess it's none of my business and everyone in their own time some people maybe we'll never start the journey of understanding themselves and healing and peeling back layers.

[419] Yeah, sometimes people who you love and are very, very close to.

[420] And like, you'll never be able to control that or, like, force them to or do it for them.

[421] Was there a catalyst or something that helped you to take that step and start wanting to peel back layers and understand?

[422] Was there anything that, or was it just the, the pain of staying the same was greater than the pain of making a change.

[423] I've definitely always been searching, I think.

[424] I'd always been searching, but I never knew, like, how to go deeper, how to, like, yeah, okay.

[425] And I think, um, yeah, Rubin, meditation, therapy.

[426] The pandemic, like, Like, because we were just at home every single day, like, a lot of variables, like, stopped shifting, so I could track my mood, like, more accurately because, like, there wasn't a bunch of different things happening each day, but I could see, like, do, like, I could see it.

[427] So I guess, like, the stillness, you know, but, like, you have to, you have to, you have to, you have to, you have to choose.

[428] like what you want there's comfort sometimes within the pain or within like the um onion and like you have you have to choose whether like going going there is going to be like pain like the most painful thing you ever do but like have have you know every possibility on the other side or is it just like safer to like not and like get by and like it's okay because I'm not hurting anyone and like I hurt myself a little bit but like I can deal with it it's like that's like that's the thing you and it's like that's a hard decision to make and there's never right time and like it never like happens as fast as you want it to happen and you just like to choose like that ultimately is a choice that only you can make and you can't make for other people you can't like persuade them and you can't like you just have to choose and you have to do that multiple times where you go I'm fixed now and then you're not and so you have to choose again like am I going to get back on the horse or am I going to not and yeah it's just professionally then yeah oh your face lit up again I'm like I it's very liberating to speak this freely with you in this private setting but like understanding that it's going to be public because i i've never really done that i don't think um and i'm a bit scared i have to be honest like i'm quite like concerned a little bit it's like creeping in yeah but i really hope that it like um can help the people that it's like you know or i don't know what i hope but um yeah i hope it's okay what is what is the concern um I don't know, it's just like that, like, the media training part of you that's like, don't say this or do.

[429] And also because, like, a lot of things that I've discussed, like, they do concern other people.

[430] And so, you know, there's that as well.

[431] Because it just gets, yeah, I don't know.

[432] But it's fine.

[433] It's fine.

[434] It's going to be okay.

[435] That sounds like I'm just trying to convince myself.

[436] were you were you um were you anxious about coming here today um um yes uh but i had prepared well no i just had i wanted sometimes i'm anxious because i don't know where it's going to go and other times i'm i'm anxious because um i i like it's like are you going to be open or not or are you going to be honest or not i guess yeah so that was sort of the anxious thing where it was like you know i went to morning yoga this morning and i was doing breathing exercises in the car um because it's like it's very easy to slip back into the like yeah it's like still a part of me it's still a very very prominent part of me so yeah why did you want to do that today why did you why did you want to be um open to today?

[437] Like, there's a piece that's, like, missing.

[438] And, like, if I try and really talk about things, honestly, like, I just know that there's this, like, massive, like, whole that I'm, like, dancing around the edge of.

[439] Um, and I don't think that it, like, yeah, I don't think that that, like helps anything so yeah yeah i guess like what i what i wanted to speak about today and like we've got we have spoken about it and it's like been a lot more emotional than i you know anticipated but it always is right um but i i it's like you know like freedom of expression and making art really did change everything and like I want other people to to feel that and like I couldn't talk about that and without like fully talking about what it helped me escape from I guess so yeah it's funny with being an artist that we um I used to think that our creating art was exclusive I said this in our show where we did up and down the country I opened with this I say once upon a time I used to think that art was exclusively reserved for people that were like artists.

[440] If it's in your bio, then you can do it.

[441] You can paint, you can create, you can make music, you can dance.

[442] But only if it's in your bio and you've gone to like school for it.

[443] Yeah.

[444] Everyone else were all like other things.

[445] Artists over there, everyone else over here.

[446] And it was actually when I left my job as a CEO that I thought to myself, at a fundamental level, if I remove all these labels that society's given me, what am I?

[447] And that's when I discovered the art in me that had been suppressed because society says you're an artist and I'm a CEO.

[448] Yeah.

[449] But we're all artists and that realization has been so amazing for me and my mind and my mental health and all those things.

[450] Do you think we're all artists?

[451] I do.

[452] And I think that you can, there's a lot of words you can use for that that might make, you know, people more comfortable with, you know, that as a label.

[453] But I think, like, fundamentally, like, since the beginning of time, like, humans have, like, made things.

[454] and they've just like got increasingly like complex and like they maybe have altered like the human state in like lots of ways and like you know the way we think and the way we behave or whatever but like we've always made things like at our fundamental level like we've used tools and we we've made things and whether you like see your approach to life or like your mind as like more like analytical or something like it's there's it's still like creation like you're still creating things um and finding like what you create like very freely and like being able to do that as much as possible is like an incredibly fulfilling thing and it doesn't have to be like painting or like these very sort of rudimentary like clear sort of artist industries like I don't know like I listen to like some business podcast and stuff and they talk about like sort of like running a company yeah you can probably have more insight but like when people are doing like what they're amazing at and like other people are doing things that they're amazing at and like you don't get people to do things that like they're very slow at and like don't understand or like don't like doing or like and that's like how you can like move very quickly.

[455] Amen.

[456] And so it's like but what about like the whole world like not that the whole world is like a company or whatever but like what like what if we could all do what we're like that comes effortlessly to us like yeah.

[457] And it's not just like a bunch of people sitting around painting.

[458] Like it's not that at all.

[459] If you think about artists as like that very sort of like but if people were like free to create and to like explore their mind and like you know express through through through building through making the thing that um people sometimes struggle with is they will say well i've got this job and i can i can't do that i'm a you know i got to go to this building so and i've got you know i'm a cleaner so i've got to do this where i've you know i work in the supermarket or um i'm a driver so i can't i can't be an artist i can't create anything sorry mazie Yeah, well, and this is what I always want to be, like, incredibly, I guess, like, from that person's perspective, yeah, I don't have a clue, like, what I'm talking about, right?

[460] And it's, like, it's all, like, very nice, like, in theory, but, like, get in the real world.

[461] And, like, I understand that perspective.

[462] and that's why I think it's like a like like a like a problem like that's rooted through like even the way that like children are like educated like all the way through to like the way we see like our working lifespan like but I believe I understand what you're saying you're saying wouldn't it be wonderful if everybody could get to that place if that was even if it's a you know and I I personally think that I really would love, you know, if I could wave a wand and everyone listening to this could maybe take one thing away from this from how I've received it.

[463] It's like, we don't have to give up on that dream of creating just because, like, I remember working in Courseners.

[464] I remember doing all of those things.

[465] But I would, I would also prioritize as much as I possibly could understanding the context I'm in and everyone's in a different context, not one that I can speak to that the way out of that for me was like owning my own space of creation even if that meant home and like playing a video game where I got to like build a virtual world or in the case of me it was I was building this business called Walpark and it's actually more so now that I'm like learning to DJ and I'm like doing these shows I'm writing these books that I'm like no matter how much I get caught up in my identity of like building businesses whatever I should always reserve a split space for like creating if possible and that is so good for them mind.

[466] I hope everyone, because I know everyone listening to this, there'll be a guy, you know, driving up in a lorry listening to this right now, but he knows he loved playing the drums.

[467] And at some point, he told himself that, oh, I can't do that.

[468] That's a silly thing.

[469] That's a distraction.

[470] Yeah.

[471] It's a waste of time.

[472] That's the worst one.

[473] Yeah.

[474] Yeah.

[475] I think like the, the, like, snowball of, like, opportunities that, like, or possibilities that it opens up when you just like, yeah, you don't tell yourself, no, I can't do that anymore because I don't have time or I don't have, you know, it's like, yeah, I have to do this instead or I have to do this instead, like, switching, switching like a little portion of your week over to, like, freely creating.

[476] I think it can bring incredible things for people.

[477] Wasted time is a really interesting concept that I've, I think, in the last two weeks of doing this podcast I started to think a lot about it was actually last night someone said to me oh we should watch um what did they say prison break and I remember like my brain when that's a waste of time and then I corrected myself to them and I didn't say it to them but I remember going do you know what nothing is really a waste of time because you think about the way creativity works and how we source inspiration from so many random things I think is and also if you just if it relaxing is not a waste of time but I think we've been quite conditioned to see if it's not productive and resulting in some kind of you know quantitative ROI it's a waste of time what's your relationship with time and empty time and space well I mean it's it's changed a lot but I think like currently I don't like I don't try and like control like time this is taking too long this isn't like you know this needs to happen now or like oh I should be doing this but I haven't um i've spent like a lot of my time like i've spent a lot of my time uh like torturing myself over like whether i spent time in like the most like uh like useful way or whatever um but now it all it i feel like we've even said something recently because like we've been talking about time a lot and like sort of this discussion of like is it linear like and this is kind of like you know quite like can be quite sort of hypothetical or whatever dense things about like the history of the universe and like what we all are and what it all means but he said something very interesting recently where he was like I feel like what time can do is like arrange itself before you and like he sort of talks about like his schedule like sometimes in a week like there's a million meetings and they're all happening at the same time and it's like uh like are you going to go like uh i need to change everything he was like or do you just like let it be and then it magically kind of like this person needs to do something earlier and this person needs to do something like later so like these calls all move and then we need to council because so got COVID like he was like it like if I like stress and try and manipulate my calendar to be like perfect one that's really really stressful and two I don't do that and it sometimes just like it most of the time just sort of falls into into place and so I've always thought that was really interesting so in those times where I was like I need to be doing this right now but like I can't do it I can't focus I can't whatever I am like the space, the block of time where I'm supposed to do this is going to find me. That sounds like I'm like avoiding all responsibilities.

[478] No, it makes perfect sense to me. Because we, there's many ways I, many ways I received that.

[479] The first one was just like, okay, I can't control the future anyway.

[480] So there's so much anxiety surrounding trying to.

[481] The second thing is that like my priorities and what I care about will end up shaping this all anyway.

[482] So like if this ran over by a couple of minutes and I wanted it to run over, that's fine because I made the conscious decision that this was my priority versus, I don't know, walking my dog or something.

[483] And so my priorities, my values will hopefully lead me. And then there's loads of things out of my control, which is not for me to worry about anyway.

[484] So the future should be somewhat fluid.

[485] And accepting that's not always an easy thing, but it's probably a better way to look at our time.

[486] I want to enjoy the journey.

[487] So you're enjoying the journey, right?

[488] Yeah.

[489] More so now than ever.

[490] Yeah.

[491] good yeah are you uh yeah i'm enjoying the journey yeah yeah i am i just take every day i think i've just always just taken every day as it comes and like some days i do really shit and that's okay but i can't do anything about it now so i just try and try my best to just as i said earlier like channel that into like learnings feedback yeah being better we have a closing tradition on this podcast which you might be aware of uh -huh um It's where the last guest writes a question for the next guest.

[492] Oh, cool.

[493] No, I have, okay, I haven't seen this.

[494] So they don't know who they're writing at four, and you will never know who asked it.

[495] Okay.

[496] And I don't get to read it until now.

[497] Okay.

[498] This person has a bit of a interesting handwriting.

[499] Okay.

[500] Mine is worse, I'll say, but here we go.

[501] What's the last decision you made that went?

[502] completely sideways plus what did you do to correct it brackets if you could correct it there's like a lot of different things that i'm thinking of and i don't know like okay so i i've been working in paris recently as you know um and i uh i was diagnosed uh like a year and a half go with ADHD and i take medication every day and um i like prescribed that in the uk and i'm like working in france so i ran out um and like couldn't get any more in time to like go away i don't know if this is going to be like insightful no it needs to be insightful at all um to correct it i tried to get some sent over but that like wasn't working for lots of different reasons um but i guess like the main thing that I did was like stop beating myself up about like not like organizing it better so as I had it because I was already feeling like terrible but you know torturing yourself over this and telling yourself oh you could you could have your medication right now if you'd have just or if you'd have just done this then you'd be fine right now but instead you're going to struggle like instead of sort of going down that path I just was like it's done I can't change it like I'm I can't do this like my my brain is like hitting a wall with like you know I don't know to do list or like whatever and I had just have to ride it out what made you want to go and get checked for ADHD but then even that assumes you wanted to go get checked I've been speaking to a psychiatrist for like a long time so he's known me for quite a while and we've sort of like yeah between him and like therapy that I do sort of more actively like more regularly yeah and he suggested it yeah and it made sense to you it did like a lot of the things that I like had noticed about myself like I always remember my mom being like yeah but you know I struggle with this and I struggle with that too like you know and I think she raised me knowing all the things that she knew about herself like in a very particular way and I got to do a lot of things that came very naturally to me and she was sort of forced to do things like she just you know and so but it was like funny because he was sort of saying me all these things and I'm like yeah but my mom does that and he's going yeah it runs in the family I'm like Oh, interesting.

[503] So, yeah, it was quite a, it was quite a interesting thing just for me and my mum to go through, actually.

[504] Yeah, I had more perspective on myself, but also, like, more perspective on her, too, which was kind of cool.

[505] What is your relationship with the mum?

[506] I realise I've not mentioned her.

[507] Yeah, we haven't.

[508] My relationship with my mum is in a really, really good place now.

[509] Now?

[510] I mean, she, it's like, it has been my whole life.

[511] I mean she like kind of gave me the greatest gift of all and just like supported whatever it is what I wanted to do and it kind of led me to like the most extraordinary places and we did a lot like together and in more recent years I think I've like I've well you know grown up but also sort of like you know been more more independent and like that is like adjusted our relationship um as it does like you know very naturally um but it's just been like interesting for the two of us to navigate that from from being like quite in ways codependent you know like she she traveled with me when I was like between the age of like like 12 to 16 17 and like those are usually the years when everyone's like mom like you're not cool I don't like you and like me and my mom were like thick as thieves and we just like traveled like traveled the world together like me and her um So we were like very, like very, very close and like, like had a, you know, and we still are.

[512] We still have all those things.

[513] But it's just been very interesting, like, you know, growing up and having, like having parts of my life that are like just simply my own and like parts of my career and struggles with my career that I get through on my own because like, you know, that's okay.

[514] I can do that now.

[515] And just like the way that that's been like strange for us both, I think.

[516] Was there a point with your relationship with your mother where you started having those difficult conversations about the things you were realising about yourself and your past?

[517] And is there, because I'm just, I'm not that close to my parents.

[518] I've just never had, I've never had those conversations.

[519] Yeah, like we, yeah, we've definitely had, like, those conversations.

[520] Yeah, it's, like, incredibly painful.

[521] Like, it, yeah, I think.

[522] think there's like so much pain you know that you have like in your own experience but like you know you're it's yeah it's like it's like very painful to think about like people that you love like being in pain as well like whatever so yeah well maisie um thank you thank you for thank you for coming here today and thank you for having this conversation with me um I learn so much from, you know, everyone I speak to, but it's interesting.

[523] You're such, I feel like, I feel like you're, I feel that you're such a good human being at your core.

[524] And it almost, yeah, it's difficult for me. I feel like you're such a pure good human being, you know.

[525] And so I really like feel, I feel like every tear you've cried and I feel all of your, all of your pain as well.

[526] well um i've never actually got up and hug someone during the conversation but no you are you're such a beautiful pure human being and um i'm so deeply hoping that you um you get comfortable with that truth too however long that takes for you because it is the truth and um because of that is the truth it means that you're so deserving of so much more so than i am you're definitely you are because you are you are literally like a within there you are a complete ray of joy and sunshine and love and kindness and all those things that I'm striving to be even better at so thank you and you know thank you for your honesty because it's unbelievably difficult and it's easier not to be but you you won't even get to see all of the people that it serves and helps in so many profound ways so that's what I want to thank you for and your suit and it's just tremendously inspiring we didn't even get to talk about hard you've worked professionally we did a little bit off off air but um to achieve all the things you've achieved at such an unbelievably young age but um that inspires me um your openness and honesty inspires me your wisdom inspires me and you know i'm so excited and you're 20 fucking five which is unfair it's like crazy it's crazy um crazy that you've done so much and you're such a beautiful person at such a young age so thank you masey thank you thank you for having me um And thank you.

[527] Thank you for this incredible podcast.

[528] I think you, as you have spoken about, have a real range of guests, but I think that you approach everyone on a very sincere and, like, consistent level.

[529] And I think that you as a person are, like, very real and that sort of brings out like a real openness and in the people that you talk with but you also like clarify at every sort of point any part that you don't understand which not only makes it helps you understand but it brings like the audience in in a way that like a lot of other people don't whether because like they don't want to ask questions because they don't want to look like they don't know or whatever like you you are like very authentic um and like it's incredibly calming to be around um so thank you huge compliment thanks macy