Evan Rachel Wood

[0] Welcome to armchair expert.

[1] Today's guest is Evan Rachel Wood, come on.

[2] Evan Rachel Wood, Evan Rachel Wood, grab your wood with Evan Rachel.

[3] Monica.

[4] Yes, hi.

[5] Hi, I'm your host, Bill Peterson.

[6] Who are you today?

[7] Maddie McTurner.

[8] Oh.

[9] I weirdly thought you were going to say Maximum Mouse.

[10] Oh.

[11] I think in days of where you're feeling extra powerful, you should be, you should be, you you have another persona persona non grata that's maximum mouse like a alter ego where it's like it's a day that you're gonna fucking take names what is it kick ass and take names yeah your maximum mouse okay yeah i think i max my mouse most days yeah you're pretty maximus majoris oh that sounded kind of kind of like some genitals well listen evan rachel wood um she is has been in so many darn things.

[12] So many.

[13] So many.

[14] I wouldn't even know where to begin.

[15] But currently she's on Westworld, on Home Box Office, HBO.

[16] What's their little thing, HBO?

[17] Not TV.

[18] Not TV.

[19] But what's their sound?

[20] It's like, is there just that?

[21] Isn't there this?

[22] And then it fades out and then HBO's there.

[23] But then it goes, whew, or something?

[24] Is there something melodic?

[25] Yeah, that sounds right, actually.

[26] Okay.

[27] Home box office.

[28] Check it out.

[29] are better at making sounds.

[30] I do.

[31] Oh, you do?

[32] Mm -hmm.

[33] Huh.

[34] Except for the exception of your wife, I think, generally speaking, I mean, I'm going to say that's a bad, bad thing for me to say, but I really believe it.

[35] No, it's a bad, bad thing for me to say.

[36] You can say whatever the hell you want.

[37] Well, no, I want to be part of this perpetuating the gender differences.

[38] But, and I know, but it's because it's cultural.

[39] I think boys are meant to play with trucks and things that are kinetic and, like, bang together.

[40] And then And they are making those sounds.

[41] And girls aren't really given those toys and told to play with those things.

[42] Well, I do think you're right in that when girls play, they talk.

[43] Yeah, it's talking.

[44] Like their toys face each other.

[45] They're always like, you know, making plans or they're dealing with something.

[46] Yeah.

[47] And guys are like, oh, what's your brother?

[48] Exactly.

[49] They're mainly in sound effects land.

[50] And then we do a lot of fart noises for each other.

[51] Wow.

[52] You know, there's all kinds of for each occasion.

[53] So many kinds.

[54] Yeah.

[55] And Nate can do the best ones.

[56] Oh, really?

[57] Yeah, he was a terrible way to start this podcast.

[58] Listen, everybody.

[59] Evan Rachel Wood is here.

[60] She's brilliant.

[61] She's a damn fine actor.

[62] And she's a lot of fun to talk to.

[63] So please enjoy Evan Rachel Wood.

[64] Wondry Plus subscribers can listen to Armchair Expert early and add free right now.

[65] Join Wondry Plus in the Wondry app or on Apple Podcasts.

[66] Or you can listen for free wherever you get your podcasts.

[67] Evan, welcome to Armchair Expert.

[68] Thank you for having me. You know, you're way younger than I thought.

[69] Do you get that a lot?

[70] No, I actually get the opposite.

[71] Oh, you do.

[72] If people think I'm younger, when they find out I have a five -year -old, I'm in my 30s.

[73] I think it freaks them out.

[74] Oh, because you're exactly two weeks younger than Monica.

[75] Yeah.

[76] And Monica's generally the youngest person around.

[77] Alive.

[78] I'm generally the youngest person on Earth.

[79] People call you a baby just indefinitely.

[80] Yeah.

[81] Happens to me. Yeah.

[82] Oh, you're a baby.

[83] Well, she is technically Kristen and I's baby.

[84] Yes.

[85] Yeah, she's one of our three babies.

[86] Yep.

[87] But I guess probably just because I have seen, I've seen you for 20 plus years.

[88] I thought for sure you were minimally my wife's age.

[89] Not that you look any certain way.

[90] Just in my mind, I'm like, I wouldn't care either way.

[91] Well, I remember when we started working on parenthood and I started working with May Whitman and I was like, why is she better than everyone?

[92] Like I got, it really triggered some insecurities.

[93] I'm like, this 21 year old's considerably better than most of us.

[94] And then I looked at everyone.

[95] I'm like, oh, she's been acting for 20 years.

[96] She was a fucking baby, literally.

[97] May and I used to go to the same acting class.

[98] Oh, you did?

[99] Yeah, we knew each other when we were kids.

[100] kind of like grew up in the same acting kids circle and she was always one of the best yeah and did you guys get along oh yeah i adore me she is and she's so incredibly talented i'm dying to work with her actually yeah and then the most fun human being we've got yes yeah so funny yeah she's incredible and i was wondering if you have this thing that she has which is she was 21 and i was i guess maybe 37 or something when we started working together and i would throw out references like Harold and Maude.

[101] Not thinking for a second, she's going to know what that is, but she knows every single reference that I knew being that much older than her.

[102] It's from growing up around adults.

[103] Yeah, I was wondering if you had that too.

[104] Absolutely.

[105] I'm sure she's gotten the, you're such an old soul so many times.

[106] I think it comes from growing up in the industry a lot.

[107] I always got along better with adults than kids growing up, which is sad in some ways, but also turned beyond a lot of really cool art. Yeah.

[108] Well, are you familiar with this concept of, that you have two selves, right?

[109] There's the experiential self and then the narrative self, the one that's writing the story of your life.

[110] Yeah.

[111] And then the experiential self is like looking at Instagram and you love doing that for two hours.

[112] And then at night, your narrative self's like, that was a terrible waste of my day.

[113] Right.

[114] So they're at odds sometimes.

[115] But I'm wondering, you know, I'm sure the experiential Evan was enjoying the hell out of being around adults, not like going, oh, I'm missing.

[116] out on a traditional childhood.

[117] But I wonder if the narrative self, when you look back, do you feel like, oh, maybe I...

[118] It's interesting.

[119] I feel like a lot of people that were child actors and that are still acting as adults, when they get asked, would you let, if they have children, they get asked, would you let your kids do it?

[120] And they say, I wouldn't change anything about my life, but no, I will not let my child do it.

[121] Yeah.

[122] So I have, yeah, kind of...

[123] Do you feel that way about it?

[124] I'm at war a bit with it because there's a lot of scary things that come with it.

[125] And I do have reservations about thrusting a child into it before they really have a sense of self and what they really want.

[126] And you don't really know what you're getting into.

[127] Sometimes you don't really know what you're getting into as an adult.

[128] No, most often, none of us know.

[129] And it's, it's a lot.

[130] Kind of the fun of being alive.

[131] You think you're signed up for one thing and then something else.

[132] Life doesn't give a, can you cuss on this?

[133] Of course.

[134] Okay, yeah, life doesn't give a shit about your plan.

[135] I've learned that.

[136] But I also loved my experiences and the travel and the learning.

[137] And I felt like I got a better education being an actor than I did in school.

[138] I am perplexed by actors who, now look, I don't want to push my children into acting.

[139] And I don't even desire them to be child actress.

[140] But the notion of them being adults who go into acting, I'm like, it's the greatest job you can have if you can find employment.

[141] I don't understand, like almost every actor I know with kids, like, well, I don't want them to go on that.

[142] I'm like, why?

[143] It's the best job.

[144] Oh, absolutely.

[145] If he gets older and wants to do it, I would absolutely support it.

[146] I think it's an amazing tool.

[147] And I think what makes me sad is, and I've even felt this way, where, you know, no one really asks you questions about acting or the process or what it means to you.

[148] And there's this assumption that you're just doing this to be famous and that's it.

[149] And that there's no real.

[150] Just so you know that.

[151] And also, that's fine.

[152] Sure, sure.

[153] It's even worse.

[154] I just want money.

[155] I just want all the fucking money.

[156] And that's also.

[157] fine, that there is this other side of it that, I don't know, for me, like, I grew up in the theater, I grew up around it, that's why I know probably a lot of the same references this may, because it was just, I was bred to do it.

[158] Yes.

[159] And I loved it, and it was always to me about storytelling, and I never looked at it as pretending.

[160] I looked at it as truth telling and feeling and trying to be as, like, truthful and vulnerable as possible to connect people.

[161] And it sounds really cheesy when you talk about it, and no one really wants to believe you when you say that.

[162] I guess my motivation for them to do it in adulthood would be, I want them to have real life experiences before having primarily pretend life experiences.

[163] You know, like, I don't want them to just jump off a bridge into a river only in a movie when they hear action.

[164] Like, I want them to have done that for real.

[165] And then when they're on the bridge in the movie, they remember how fun that was, you know.

[166] So I guess that's the dicey part of it is, is like, But I think something May was great at, and I wonder how you did, is she was very engaged and active in every other aspect of her life as well.

[167] So she was like pursuing music on her own.

[168] She was in this.

[169] She's a great singer.

[170] Oh, she sure is, a little tiny angel.

[171] Mm. And I wondered, were you so busy acting that you were precluded from having a bunch of hobbies or interests, or did you juggle a lot of things?

[172] Growing up or now?

[173] Growing up.

[174] Yeah, growing up, no, I've started in musical theater, so I've also been singing as long as I've been acting.

[175] And music and singing is another great, great love of mine.

[176] But no, and...

[177] Well, let's start by saying your parents, your mom and dad are both actors.

[178] They are, yeah.

[179] And your dad's also a writer and a playwright and I think a director.

[180] And my mom runs an acting studio now.

[181] It's just, it's in the...

[182] Yeah.

[183] would make a ton of sense that that was everything.

[184] Yeah, my whole family is artists in some way.

[185] There's production designers.

[186] There's, you know, directors and writers and singers and drummers.

[187] And that's, yeah, we're just kind of a family of misfits.

[188] And why were you all in Raleigh?

[189] That's where my parents grew up.

[190] And that's where my dad founded his theater and which he still runs there.

[191] And that's where my parents met.

[192] And I grew up there and watching plays.

[193] and that was the first place I went on stage and that's just kind of where everything.

[194] I don't know.

[195] I think he always just felt a real connection with that community and wanting to give people that outlet there.

[196] And he has built this kind of really amazing community and people that I've known since I was a child are still there and still involved.

[197] And they've met their wives and they've had kids.

[198] Now the kids are in the theater.

[199] It's been this kind of multi -generational thing.

[200] It's really cool.

[201] Yeah, that's neat.

[202] And so presumably you are always around this theater.

[203] Always, yeah.

[204] Uh -huh.

[205] Yeah.

[206] And when did you first do a play?

[207] How old were you?

[208] I was four.

[209] Oh, Jennifer.

[210] I have a four -year -old right now, and I can't imagine.

[211] I can't even get her to, like, walk to her room for bedtime.

[212] Yeah.

[213] I have a five -year -old.

[214] No, I can't imagine.

[215] I look at him, and I'm like, that's how old I was when I screen tested for interview with the vampire.

[216] Wow.

[217] And I, it really dawned on me, and I looked at my mom.

[218] I said, oh, that's why people came up to you and said, excuse me?

[219] Uh -huh.

[220] Yeah.

[221] This girl is five, and she's speaking like a Victorian adult, what is happening.

[222] So that's kind of where I got discovered.

[223] It is interesting to me, because when I look at people like, what's her buns and E .T. Drew Barrymore.

[224] And I'm looking at her, I'm like, oh, she's a baby.

[225] Yeah.

[226] And she's phenomenal.

[227] Yes.

[228] And I think if any kids should be that, it'd be Kristen and I's kids.

[229] And yet I don't see that they have that capacity at all.

[230] I mean, maybe as they get older, but yeah, it's a unique kind of like, because you just, at that age, you get sick of doing something in like 30 seconds.

[231] Yeah, the attention span is really.

[232] And they must have tricks to deal with that.

[233] Or maybe they, actually, they don't now that I think, I've been on, I've been in movies with little people and they just march forward like it's, you know, Harrison Ford is in the scene, you know?

[234] It's true.

[235] Yeah, I don't know.

[236] I don't really remember tricks or anything.

[237] I mean, but I know that Spielberg is like the.

[238] child whisper all those amazing kids in his movies didn't they dress up somebody in a bear costume to film Close Encounters You remember the kid in Close Encounters The really really little one and his performance was absolutely amazing and the way he looked at the lights It's because there was a guy in a bear costume dancing around So just know that I feel like they did something funny with ET too There's some kind of story about that I'm sure They put ET in a top hat or a sombrero board shorts That's incredible But then you also hear the horror stories, too, of like, whoa, how did they get that kid to cry like that?

[239] And then you hear, oh, we told him that his dog had died.

[240] Yeah.

[241] And then got the performance and then immediately told him that the dog was okay.

[242] And I was like, that's cruel.

[243] Can I tell you the darkest one I've heard?

[244] And it was from someone who shot the movie.

[245] Oh, not.

[246] I'll leave out the director.

[247] But they knew that they needed the little kid to cry in like three weeks.

[248] And so the director had invited the kid into his trailer.

[249] a couple different times to hang out and he made a big deal about this watch he had this pocket watch and it had been his great grandfathers and his fathers and now it was his and it was his most prized possession blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah like three days before that scene the director comes out and yells at the whole crew someone stole my watch where is my fucking watch if i find out who did this blah blah blah makes this huge thing he plays angry for three days Moment before action, they send the costume over to straighten the kid's outfit out.

[250] And the costume which says, what's in your pocket?

[251] Oh, this is horrible.

[252] I know.

[253] And he pulls out the watch.

[254] I mean.

[255] Holy shit.

[256] How is that not child abuse?

[257] It is.

[258] It absolutely is.

[259] I also have to tip my hat to the sophistication of the plan.

[260] I mean, it's a pretty detailed plan.

[261] Sociopathic, I would say.

[262] Oh, my God.

[263] Isn't that something?

[264] And the kid, of course, was crying.

[265] I didn't do it.

[266] It wasn't me. I don't know how they got there.

[267] Oh, they were like, you're getting this.

[268] Oh, boy.

[269] That is awful.

[270] Can you remember ever being manipulated in that fashion?

[271] Um, uh.

[272] Anyone hide a watch on your person?

[273] No, no. But, you know, sometimes, you know, somebody would smash something to make me jump or make me scared or you know you'd hear something really loud behind you but it was never you know I think sometimes I would get my mom to like yell at me or something but I would ask her to do that I'd be like yell at me mom yeah such a little like serious actor kid yeah um one time when Kristen and I worked together on something I directed I was it was a specific scene where she had to feel very betrayed and blah blah and I said do you want me to like just go off you know the reservation and she said yeah like give me something believable and so I made up this crazy story in the scene and it worked and at the end of it we had to like hug for about three minutes but she was an adult and that's what she wanted yeah well again it's weird our job is manipulating our emotions and tricking our bodies into thinking something is actually happening to us and if you do that enough it is easy to slip in and out of that at least I mean I don't know if Maybe not for some, but for me, if I, sometimes when I'll just think about a scene and start crying, like, I just get used to, like, tapping into, like, what that would actually feel like.

[274] Well, it's like muscle memory, right?

[275] It's muscle memory, absolutely.

[276] But it's also why a lot of actors go insane, I think.

[277] Because it's, you really, like, on the one hand, on one hand, I'm unsympathetic to actors who have these very public meltdowns on set and it happens to get recorded.

[278] You know, part of me is like, fuck you.

[279] people are working much harder than you and you don't get to act like that.

[280] On the other hand, I can also make the case.

[281] An actor is going to fail multiple times in front of everybody they know before you get it.

[282] And there is some kind of vulnerability in that that I'm a little sympathetic to like, well, they're the only people here failing at their job over and over again until they, quote, get it right.

[283] And we really only get about 15 minutes to do our job a day, you know, because it's all broken up.

[284] You do a little bit and then you wait for a little bit.

[285] You wait for a really long time.

[286] And when you add it all together, it's really not that long that you're doing your job.

[287] Yeah.

[288] That's what I like about TV.

[289] Like I initially was hesitant to go into TV.

[290] And once I got there, I was like, oh, this is awesome.

[291] If I'm here for 10 hours, I'm actually acting for six of the hours.

[292] That's awesome.

[293] That's what I like.

[294] Yes.

[295] I also watched every single episode of Parento.

[296] Oh, you did?

[297] Yes.

[298] Yeah, I'm a huge sucker for a family drama.

[299] But it's also because I was on one when I was a kid for like three years.

[300] And it was such a, that The whole experience just shaped me in such a way and was so special.

[301] It really is a family.

[302] It really is.

[303] You're spending so much time with them.

[304] There's no way you can be doing that kind of material and connecting and putting yourself in those places without bringing in your own shit.

[305] You know what I mean?

[306] Like it just comes out even when you don't expect it.

[307] And you have these moments with actors where you see something in their eyes and they see something in yours and you know it's real and you don't know where it's coming from.

[308] But you like hold hands when you're done.

[309] You're like, you just showed me a piece of your soul.

[310] and I just want to acknowledge that that happened.

[311] I just saw some trauma.

[312] I was drugging forever.

[313] Definitely some trauma I just saw fly by.

[314] Who hurt you?

[315] Have they been prosecuted?

[316] Do you have siblings?

[317] I do.

[318] I have two older brothers and then I have a little sister and a little brother who was only a year older than my son.

[319] Because my dad and my stepmom had a baby later on.

[320] I could have guessed what parent had a child four years ago.

[321] Yep, that would be my dad So you had two older brothers And did they get into it at all Yes, my brother Is an actor And also is helping To run my father's theater now He's like basically like Taking over And he's brilliant Honestly My brother Ira is one of my Acting heroes And you know He was three years old So we were like Frick and Frack growing up And we were always making movies Doing skits He taught me everything I've ever learned about comedy and he still inspires me to say he's amazing and then my oldest brother is a musician, he's an amazing drummer and then...

[322] I was bracing myself for you to say he's in prison Oh wow.

[323] I'll tell you why.

[324] There was a small semantic thing where he said my older brother you just use singular and I was like oh something happened to the other older brother where we're now not talking about him in the present tense Anywho I really got buckled up And I was like, oh, my goodness, manslaughter or something's coming my way.

[325] No, no, no, no, he's fine.

[326] Four kids and doing really well.

[327] Your mom and dad, obviously, they had no room to say, like, go to law school.

[328] No, but weirdly enough, I've been studying law this year.

[329] Really?

[330] Oh, you have?

[331] Yeah.

[332] Why?

[333] I do a lot of domestic violence advocacy work.

[334] And part of that is learning everything you can about the laws to see what's working and what's not.

[335] Yeah.

[336] So, yeah, it's actually been a thing.

[337] Now, are you in pursuit of an actual degree?

[338] I have toyed with the idea of passing the bar to have the knowledge.

[339] And because kind of what we were talking, like growing up, my main job was acting.

[340] And I obviously did school and you do school mainly in a trailer.

[341] And you're just doing it so that you can work.

[342] You're just kind of rushing through it.

[343] You're not really retaining, at least for me. I loved my teacher.

[344] And I actually did get a lot more one -on -one than I did in public school.

[345] but um but yeah it just my career took off at a really young age and so i didn't i don't know i never studied anything like that or really well it's a ton of fun as maybe you're discovering i'm a nerd though so i love it yeah i'm being serious my favorite moment was um UCLA like i fucking love going to classes and learning it's so fun that's Monica and i have a pact in our retirement we're going to return to college yeah we're just going to sit in on lectures and accumulate weird degrees yeah like next somebody meet me. I might be an architect.

[346] We don't know yet.

[347] Slash, slash, slash.

[348] But that's everyone not just actors.

[349] Like every kid, no one's taking in what they should be taking in because they don't know yet, the value.

[350] Exactly.

[351] Yeah.

[352] I really love learning now, especially things that I feel really come in handy right now, like law.

[353] Yeah.

[354] That's true.

[355] Yeah.

[356] Know you're right.

[357] Yeah.

[358] What is the attraction to working with domestic abuse?

[359] I'm a survivor.

[360] myself.

[361] And it wasn't until very recently that I really came to terms with everything and was even able to identify what had happened.

[362] Because when it happens, it's very complicated.

[363] And you lie to yourself.

[364] You're being lied to.

[365] You're being gaslit.

[366] You're in a dangerous situation.

[367] You're, you know, you give up, you lose a sense of self.

[368] Right.

[369] And a sense of reality because you're stuck in this kind of nightmare for a while.

[370] Yeah.

[371] People jump right to, oh, you're, you're, were physically abused how could that have happened right yes but they don't realize there's generally like eight really strong steps in route to there yeah does that happen to you precursors are you watching the r kelly thing i did watch it and i related a lot to it and i was really glad that we were having a lot of those conversations because there's a lot of ways that you can be abused that aren't physical right and there's a lot of um really complicated ways that somebody can control you and prevent you from leaving a situation without ever having to restrain you that we don't really talk about it's always like Oh, my, if somebody hits you, just leave.

[372] You know, and what they don't talk about is the person that hit you is somebody that you love very much.

[373] Sure.

[374] For a long time, it's been very nice and very charismatic and very sweet.

[375] And you've seen this amazing side to them.

[376] And you don't want to believe that's who they are.

[377] And it progressively gets worse.

[378] You know, it's not something that just sort of happens.

[379] Yeah, you want to think it's an anomaly.

[380] And they're certainly then apologizing like crazy and being the best version of themselves.

[381] And then you're walking on eggshells to prevent another incident.

[382] And then there's tension building.

[383] And then there's another experience.

[384] And then you start the cycle over again.

[385] What did you think of, what was the show?

[386] Sharp, no, no. What's on HBO right now with all the ladies?

[387] Oh, big little lies.

[388] I thought that was a really great portrayal of what it is like and the complexities behind it.

[389] Yeah, I found that, I mean, obviously having never been on either side of that relationship, I just remember watching that going, whoever wrote this has lived this.

[390] Like, this is so specific.

[391] I have to believe this is.

[392] accurate it's very accurate yeah in the whole like the fact that their sex life became predicated on that and that that was really the only way they had sex and i was like oh this is this is a much deeper thing than i give it credit for well my mom was in here and one of my stepdad's was physically abusive and it never even occurred to me oh thank you um it never even occurred to me to as she's the most honest human being the world nothing was ever hidden from us but it didn't occur to me until i was interviewing her wait a minute you You're like a crazy strong woman.

[393] How did you end up in that?

[394] And she, her answer was her shame over having had a failed marriage once before was keeping her.

[395] She just couldn't handle the shame of having failed the second time.

[396] Right.

[397] And I was like, oh my God.

[398] Well, I totally know shame.

[399] That is like the most powerful weapon out there against us, right?

[400] Yeah, absolutely.

[401] There's a lot of shame.

[402] And because of all these misconceptions about what domestic violence is.

[403] and what it looks like, and there's so much victim blaming.

[404] Yeah, it's, it's scary.

[405] It's scary to come forward with that.

[406] So in the, yeah, in our Kelly example, his pattern was, starts by, call me daddy when we're having sex.

[407] And people are like, oh, you know, whatever.

[408] That's a little weird, yeah.

[409] I'll call my wife whatever the fuck she wants.

[410] If that helps her, great.

[411] Right.

[412] Call her chicken little, whatever.

[413] So you're like, okay, I'll call you daddy.

[414] And so that starts, and then you're getting familiar with that.

[415] Wave two is you call me daddy all the time, not when we're having sex, but now I'm always daddy.

[416] And then it was, I want you to wear these certain outfits.

[417] And you're kind of like, well, I want my partner to be attracted to me. And all of a sudden, you're calling him daddy all the time.

[418] You're wearing all these office.

[419] And then it's, I don't want you to talk around my friends.

[420] And now you're not allowed to talk.

[421] And then it's, you got to ask me when you're going to go to the bathroom, when you're going to eat, when you're going to drink.

[422] And I was like, oh, this is far more complicated than he likes young women.

[423] There's like a lot of different gears in that transmission.

[424] Yeah.

[425] He sounds like he might be an actual psychopath.

[426] And definitely has a God complex and is definitely narcissistic.

[427] But that is, that is how it starts and how it can get so complicated.

[428] And were you able, though, to find sympathy for him at all while watching that?

[429] No. I understand that he may have had a very rough childhood.

[430] That is part of the tragedy.

[431] But a lot of people get abused and don't abuse other people.

[432] It definitely raises a lot of questions.

[433] But I think as a survivor and the responsibility that we have, I think that he should definitely be.

[434] prosecuted.

[435] Yeah, yeah.

[436] So let me start with saying, I think he's a monster.

[437] Yeah, yeah.

[438] I think he's totally a monster.

[439] I think he's ruined a bunch of people's life.

[440] If all that stuff is true, I actually don't know that.

[441] I don't want to get sued by anyone.

[442] But assuming that documentary was an accurate portrayal, this guy's a fucking monster.

[443] Yeah.

[444] But there was a little part of my brain going, it's kind of like an STD.

[445] You're like mad at the person that gives you an STD, but someone gave that person SD.

[446] Like everyone's a victim in this whole chain.

[447] Abuse is a virus that spreads from person to person.

[448] And that is why it is so sad.

[449] And, you know, a lot of abusers that beat their wives or their intimate partners grew up in domestic violence households and either saw a family member being beaten or were beaten themselves.

[450] And this is why it's a cycle.

[451] Yeah.

[452] And this is why we have to put things into place, especially prevention and education so that people know how to prevent it.

[453] There were a lot of things that happened to me that I just had no idea about.

[454] I was so young, I didn't know the things to look for.

[455] I didn't know that I was being abused.

[456] I thought I was with a very complicated person, that I was being strong and, and I think that Was it fulfilling any romantic fantasy of yours about being in a Sid -Nancy relationship?

[457] Oh, 100%.

[458] I mean, but that was in the beginning.

[459] It was very like, it's me and you against the world, man. Yeah, no one understands us.

[460] And we're both outcasts, and no one understands us.

[461] And you feel like you are a part of something really special.

[462] Yeah.

[463] And they make you feel really special and they make you feel like they need you.

[464] And, you know, much like what they spoke about in the documentary, they usually share something very personal with you that makes them vulnerable.

[465] And you go, oh, okay, I see where this comes from.

[466] And it's not your fault.

[467] And so I'm going to excuse this behavior.

[468] And then, you know, from there, it gets worse and worse.

[469] And the other thing they touched upon is, you know, these were girls that had a dream.

[470] You know, they really thought they were getting an opportunity to do something great with their lives.

[471] And that's the part that I think makes him a little more psychopathic.

[472] Because he knows he can, it's malicious.

[473] It's a pattern of behavior that, you know, is repeated.

[474] It was calculated and premeditated.

[475] He was picking on people that you can pray upon, yeah.

[476] Stay tuned for more armchair expert, if you dare.

[477] What's up, guys?

[478] It's your girl Kiki.

[479] And my podcast is back with a new season.

[480] And let me tell you, it's too good.

[481] and I'm diving into the brains of entertainment's best and brightest.

[482] Okay, every episode I bring on a friend and have a real conversation.

[483] And I don't mean just friends.

[484] I mean the likes of Amy Poehler, Kel Mitchell, Vivica Fox.

[485] The list goes on.

[486] So follow, watch, and listen to Baby.

[487] This is Kiki Palmer on the Wondery app or wherever you get your podcast.

[488] We've all been there.

[489] Turning to the internet to self -diagnose our inexplicable pains, debilitating body aches, sudden fevers, and strange rashes.

[490] Though our minds tend to spiral to worst -case scenarios, it's usually nothing, but for an unlucky few, these unsuspecting symptoms can start the clock ticking on a terrifying medical mystery.

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[492] Hey listeners, it's Mr. Ballin here, and I'm here to tell you about my podcast.

[493] It's called Mr. Ballin's Medical Mysteries.

[494] Each terrifying true story will be sure to keep you up at night.

[495] Follow Mr. Ballin's Medical Mysteries wherever you get your podcasts.

[496] Prime members can listen early and ad -free on Amazon Music.

[497] So here's a really interesting dynamic about all of this.

[498] We just talked about it for the first time a few weeks ago.

[499] So I was molested.

[500] I'm sorry.

[501] That's all right.

[502] So I was driving on the road and I was listening to the Bikram Yoga podcast.

[503] Yes, there's a scam.

[504] serial kind of molester rapist and you're hearing the accounts of all these women and it and it hit me while listening to it a component of all this that is really hard to talk about and that so i only speak on my own behalf about it but but i recognized it in these women who were victimized by bickram um i wanted something from the guy who molested me and so there were moments where i was in a situation I did not want to be in and I knew I didn't want to be in it, but I stayed because I wanted something.

[505] The person had leverage over me as Bickram had leverage over all these women.

[506] And I think I just for myself, I was like, you know what the real shame of that experience was.

[507] I can accept that I was seven and didn't know better and all that.

[508] He, of course, is the monster and the perpetrator and all that.

[509] But deep in my soul, I know I stayed in a situation that I shouldn't have been in.

[510] And that's where the real healing for me is is going, A, I admit that.

[511] A, I admit that.

[512] A, I admit I didn't listen to my inner voice.

[513] I wanted something and I put myself in a situation I shouldn't admit in.

[514] And I forgive myself for that.

[515] Absolutely.

[516] Because I was seven.

[517] And I don't hear, when I hear all this talk, I don't really hear the personal voyage of people who have been in this.

[518] And I have to imagine it's a really important piece of the puzzle.

[519] Forgiving yourself.

[520] Yeah, like just owning your own mistake.

[521] and then forgiving yourself from it.

[522] Absolutely.

[523] There's so many things that I look back on and I know I am not proud of and a lot of behaviors that came out as a result of me not knowing how to process had happened to me and I was acting out and I was really impulsive and defensive and, you know, on the surface, it would have seemed like I was an asshole, you know?

[524] But I was really suffering.

[525] And, you know, so that is definitely something to keep in mind.

[526] And have you had therapy for it?

[527] Absolutely.

[528] Yeah, yeah.

[529] But it took me seven years to even be able to cry about it.

[530] Because I really walked away going, you know, if I'm in pain because of this, then they win.

[531] And so I'm just not going to let it hurt me. And I just wanted to forget it had ever happened and just press on and keep moving.

[532] Keep moving.

[533] And, you know, I was a shell of a person.

[534] I had to sacrifice so much of myself to keep somebody happy that by the end I didn't know who I was anymore.

[535] Right.

[536] And I was ashamed of so many.

[537] things that I had done and been a part of because I felt like I had no other choice.

[538] And you also, I imagine you have an identity for yourself.

[539] That is, you are strong and outspoken and brave and these things, right?

[540] Yeah.

[541] So it's threatening to your identity to have been in that situation, which is the most threatening thing you can experience.

[542] Yeah, yeah.

[543] But I think it is absolutely important to lift the shame about it.

[544] Because once you do process things and you're able to look at it more objectively and You know, because a lot of people walk away and they, they, they, you lie to yourself to make sense of what's happened to you.

[545] And you say that this, I, this is my fault.

[546] I put myself here.

[547] I should have left.

[548] I should have, you know, should have, you know, shoulda, shoulda, shoulda, shoulda, shoulda, and, you know, it's, it's obviously not that easy.

[549] Right.

[550] Okay.

[551] So I think it must be an interesting voyage to end up there to begin with.

[552] So you're first just acting in, in on the stage with your family, right?

[553] And then you start doing it professionally, pretty young like it.

[554] 10 maybe.

[555] Is that when you do your first movie?

[556] My first feature film was when I was nine.

[557] Yeah, that was my first, the first time I was number one on the call sheet.

[558] Uh -huh.

[559] That's pretty young to be number one on the call sheet.

[560] Yeah.

[561] I'm racking my brain if I've even been number one on the call sheet, 44.

[562] Um, were your parents apprehensive or were they like, because certainly in their little community theater in Raleigh, you're like, absolutely, this is playtime.

[563] Do this.

[564] But then when you, I assume, you started expressing interest in like doing it professionally.

[565] It really just kind of.

[566] happened.

[567] Okay.

[568] I would, I would audition in Wilmington.

[569] There was a lot more filming going on there, and we knew some casting directors out there, and they initially called my parents because they were casting something, and they knew that they had a daughter my age.

[570] I remember clear as day.

[571] My mom got the phone call.

[572] She picked it up, and she turned it to me and said, Evan, would you want to be in a movie?

[573] And I kind of shrugged and went, okay, like, whatever.

[574] Yeah, when is it started?

[575] That's literally how my career started.

[576] It's ridiculous.

[577] And I just sort of kept doing it and every down and then I'd get a little part in something and it was just kind of a fun thing to do and then yeah that was the first time uh it wasn't it was really the whole production was on my shoulders and so I got a taste of what that felt like and it was extremely hard and were you in another state for that I was in North Carolina still oh you are yeah yeah but that is that's when I started thinking I I think I want to do this for real.

[578] Yeah.

[579] And what aspects appealed to you?

[580] Let me back up.

[581] What kind of kid were you?

[582] Like up to that point?

[583] Were you like, did you have a ton of friends?

[584] You were hyper?

[585] I was a hyper kid.

[586] And I don't know, people always used to call me an old soul.

[587] I got a, I got a, I hung out with adults most of the time.

[588] I was a real tomboy, really rough and tumble.

[589] But I just loved movies and I loved music.

[590] And to me, I grew up in a house where that was everything.

[591] That was my religion.

[592] It was just.

[593] And my life was.

[594] people and emotions and expression and connecting.

[595] And then I came to L .A. when I was 10 and took acting class Monday, Tuesday, Wednesday, Thursdays.

[596] And I helped teach on Saturdays.

[597] And I was one of the only kids that they let come into the adult classes.

[598] And, you know, I didn't always get to do a scene, but I actually got to like sit and watch.

[599] And I was just constantly taking in.

[600] And did mom come with you for that?

[601] Yeah, she taught there at the time as well.

[602] Uh -huh.

[603] And at what point are you like you're making a living you're probably when i got on to my family drama uh once and again when i was 12 i did that for three years and then uh that show got me 13 and that was it okay so from 12 to 15 you're on that show and what is it like being 12 to 15 in hollywood like acting on a show were you on to any of the nightlife aspect did you know i was i was kind of kept under lock and key because there were so many failed Childstar stories.

[604] Actually, if you Google Childstar, it's the most depressing thing you'll ever see because the only thing that comes up is death and drugs and all the fucking horrible aspects.

[605] They don't show Ron Howard.

[606] No, and they're just ripping apart.

[607] It's terrible.

[608] It's, you know, it's so...

[609] It's just fodder.

[610] So because of that, they were very, very protected with me, my family and, you know, the people, my agents and people of that nature.

[611] But because of that, I think I felt really a suffocating, at times and really claustrophobic because I felt like I wasn't allowed to do anything wrong.

[612] And so I didn't, you know, I was maybe too well behaved, which is maybe why I like went ape shit in my 20s.

[613] I was just going to say, I've had like an like an armchair at a distance theory about you for years now.

[614] And I've been dying to know like, yeah, if I'm at all close to what it was.

[615] But to me, I was like, that person really wants to rebel.

[616] And why would you.

[617] really want to rebel.

[618] And I'm imagining because you were perfect and that's daunting and oppressive and you kind of want to just go fuck all this.

[619] Yeah.

[620] And I, you know, there was a lot of things I was dealing with that I didn't know I was dealing with.

[621] I was also in the closet.

[622] And I also, I had a lot of ideas about who I was and what I wanted to be.

[623] And I didn't feel like I was able to express any of them, you know, things like the color of my hair and the way I dressed.

[624] And everything seemed to be controlled and and my life was mapped out for me right very early and I knew that I could do that if I wanted to I could see it and I knew how to do it but it didn't feel authentic and I also felt like hey I need to fall apart for a second I need to go live my life be a kid basically be kid yeah and be and find out who I am and if I do that and I still want to do this and I want to come back then you know that's my answer And I think as a woman, too, and especially as a child star, and I think, I don't know, this is just a theory, but because you are so preserved and kept under lock and key, you know, like a porcelain doll in a shelf, there's also a problem there about how we never really allow women to explore their sexuality or to own it or to look at their bodies like something that belongs to them or that is there for their pleasure or that they can enjoy and that they can own.

[625] And I think being a child star reinforced that idea about my body, that it belonged to other people and that I was there to please other people and that I would do whatever you say.

[626] What do you want me to wear?

[627] Who do you want me to be?

[628] What do I got to do?

[629] Who do I got to smile at?

[630] You know, that shaped me in a way, set me up for sort of the path of my adulthood, which wasn't always a good one, but taught me a lot.

[631] Did you at all fall into the kind of pattern you see?

[632] in some Disney stars, where it's like they're so G -rated for so long.

[633] By the way, I grew up with a lot of those Disney stars.

[634] The Disney Channel kids are the worst.

[635] No, I know.

[636] I know some of them.

[637] That's where the parties were at.

[638] I know some of them in sobriety, and I can tell you, yeah, a lot of shit.

[639] I don't mean the worst, like, bad people.

[640] I just being like, yeah, they were having fun.

[641] They were being kids.

[642] They were getting into trouble.

[643] Some of those kids were smoking crack.

[644] I know personally.

[645] That is not.

[646] That I was not around, and that's a, that's very sad.

[647] Yeah.

[648] But there is this kind of, um, uh, pattern I can think of several people that where they were in the Disney world and they wanted to own their sexuality to distance themselves from this thing where they were highly controlled.

[649] And sexuality seems like the easiest, most accessible way to do that loudly.

[650] Yeah.

[651] And I wondered if you at all felt like that was a way you would.

[652] define yourself as an adult as opposed to this kid?

[653] Definitely.

[654] And I think you'll see a lot of that.

[655] And, you know, a lot of the times, you know, once you become of age, you really kind of like blow the doors off.

[656] And all of a sudden you're like, whoa, what are they doing?

[657] And I, for me, it was, yeah, it was because I had always felt so prim and proper.

[658] And I felt like I had a right to be sexual and to be sexy and to own that.

[659] And I always told myself I wasn't doing it for anybody else except me. It was just the side of myself I wanted to explore.

[660] And I think I did and I got a lot out of it.

[661] And then I figured out what worked and what didn't work and what actually.

[662] Yeah, what was sustainable.

[663] And also like why I'm really doing it and, you know, I've been able to work through it.

[664] You can't always know.

[665] You can't always know.

[666] No, until you do it.

[667] That's the whole thing.

[668] Generally, my pattern is that after I've ruined the thing, when I'm trying to make sense of of it.

[669] I can then see, oh, I thought I was doing it because of that, but now I recognize I was just trying to regulate my emotions internally with all this external shit.

[670] Yes, I was horny, but that wasn't the end of the story.

[671] There was more to it.

[672] There's so much more.

[673] Yeah.

[674] And a lot of our greatest lessons come from our greatest mistakes.

[675] And unfortunately, you know, a lot of child stars have to make all of their mistakes in front of people.

[676] They're amplified and we aren't very compassionate.

[677] We just immediately called them crazy.

[678] Were you able, in that period from 12 to 15, were you dating?

[679] Did you have any social circle?

[680] Did you, like, live at the Oakwood Apartments and know other young people?

[681] Yes, I did live at the Oakwoods briefly, and I was actually a Kenwood kid.

[682] Did you know, there were the Oakwood kids and the Kenwood kids.

[683] But we, you know, it was like West Side Story.

[684] Sometimes we crossed the streams.

[685] So when you read 13, were you like, A, did you just genuinely love it?

[686] And then B, we're like, oh, my God, this is the perfect departure from this family show I'm on.

[687] No, I actually turned 13 down multiple times.

[688] Oh, you did?

[689] Yeah, it's, I read it, and I was 14 when I read it.

[690] And I just, no one was really making those movies at the time.

[691] You know, there were really, there was kids, the Larry Clark film.

[692] And then that was kind of the last one of its kind.

[693] We hadn't seen one in a while.

[694] And there were certainly not roles like that.

[695] Well, they don't let girls act like that.

[696] No. They'll let boys, but they don't let girls do that.

[697] Yeah, absolutely not.

[698] So when I read it, I just assumed that they wouldn't get it right.

[699] I just assumed they didn't know what they were talking about because I hadn't seen it.

[700] Is Nikki Reed the other gal in it?

[701] Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[702] And she wrote it, right?

[703] She wrote it with Catherine, yeah, the director.

[704] So a lot of it was based on her experiences.

[705] But I just didn't trust it.

[706] I really...

[707] It just seemed too high risk?

[708] Yeah, it seemed too high risk.

[709] And I knew that if it wasn't done right, then it was going to be a disaster.

[710] Yeah, child pornography, basically.

[711] So I was scared.

[712] Yeah, I was really, I was just scared.

[713] I just didn't trust it.

[714] What did your mom think of it?

[715] You know, my mom was always really supportive of my decisions acting wise.

[716] And even if it was something slightly controversial, I think because she was an actor herself, she saw the reasoning behind it and could see that it was being done in a way that was actually trying to teach something.

[717] and not, you know, exploit us and that it had great potential.

[718] Also, it's kind of like a dream role to play.

[719] Yeah.

[720] Like to play a fucked up conniving kind of, that's like the juiciest shit you could play if you're an adult.

[721] It is.

[722] And it was just really real because it was that.

[723] But then it also showed what happens behind closed doors and where it comes from and the pain and the relationship with her mom and the self -hatred that she had.

[724] and a lot of things that girls go through and, you know, it's not often discussed.

[725] So, no, I, it wasn't until I went in and I met with Catherine Hardwick in person after turning it down a couple of times.

[726] They said, you know, just go meet with her.

[727] She really wants to talk to you.

[728] This is why I won't meet with people.

[729] Because I'm like, no, the person will just win me over.

[730] I'll end up in something.

[731] I know we don't want to do it.

[732] I don't want to now go be won over.

[733] But it could be that.

[734] I know.

[735] I'll never find out.

[736] And so I did, and she showed me this whole presentation of how she wanted to shoot it and what she wanted it to look like.

[737] And I was really taken aback by her vision for it and the images.

[738] And then she talked to me like I was a person.

[739] You know, I felt like I could tell her anything.

[740] And we just talked.

[741] And I told her about my life and I told her about my experiences.

[742] And it felt like I was being validated in a way that I never had before.

[743] And then I realized why she was making it and that she really understood it.

[744] And then I walked out of it and I called me agents and I said, okay, actually, I have to do this movie.

[745] It's incredibly important that it gets made and we got to do this.

[746] But we had no idea.

[747] I mean, it was super low budget.

[748] And we really got to collaborate on that too.

[749] I think it was a really messy acting experience.

[750] We were just completely integrated into the story.

[751] We would stay in the house that we shot in.

[752] And Nikki and I became like best friends.

[753] And like we were kind of in love with each other and kind of hated each other.

[754] And like it became this thing.

[755] and like we were inseparable, and then, you know, we, again, on set, they listened to us.

[756] They, because we held the key to the authenticity and they wanted to hear it from us and to let us be able to show them, like, what it's actually like and, you know, to actually have input.

[757] And so that was hugely important.

[758] Yeah, especially at that age to be.

[759] And I think me and Nikki were both able to articulate it in a way that made sense and to be able to translate it on screen.

[760] And Holly Hunter is just the best we've got.

[761] Angel.

[762] I love her so much.

[763] I love her to death.

[764] And she hadn't even had kids when she did that movie.

[765] And she was so.

[766] So I think it's so hard to play.

[767] Now that I have kids, I can usually tell when somebody is pretending to be a mom.

[768] Yeah.

[769] Can you?

[770] Well, yes.

[771] Yes.

[772] I can.

[773] And I in retrospect, having shot parenthood without having had kids.

[774] I'm just like, oh my gosh, that would now be.

[775] be so much easier to do than it was then without them because it was just completely theoretical at that point.

[776] Yeah.

[777] I didn't let you finish though.

[778] Did you like have a social life?

[779] Did you date?

[780] Oh, God, yes.

[781] So I, uh, I did.

[782] I had a high school sweetheart, um, who was, you know, one of the Kenwood kids.

[783] Yeah.

[784] He was one of the actor kids.

[785] We went to acting class together.

[786] And then I actually fell in love with Brady Corbe, who played my brother in 13.

[787] And we dated for a few years.

[788] And now he's like winning awards at the Venice Film Festival and stuff.

[789] Oh, good.

[790] Amazing director.

[791] We always knew he would be.

[792] But yeah, he was a big influencer in my life.

[793] He really, he gave me my film education, like really expanded my film education to foreign films and to a lot of stuff I hadn't been exposed to.

[794] Was he older than you?

[795] No, he was actually a year younger.

[796] Oh, good for you.

[797] I immediately went to like, this was an older gentleman.

[798] He's educating you know of French noir.

[799] He honestly hasn't changed since he was a teenager.

[800] Like he was very beyond his years then.

[801] And I, yeah, I think I'm so affected by that time.

[802] Two, way too old for their age, like, you get 14 listening to NPR and drinking coffee in the morning.

[803] We were kind of like, we were the ones like haggling with the people with the new art to let us in to see the art rated movies.

[804] The French novels were like, Lou, come on, man. Like, we're not trying to buy beer.

[805] Like, we just want to watch this.

[806] movie like we're just like film geeks we just want to see some verite bro my god what's it take we're some titles man um so yeah we and so again it was just always about you know movies and well i imagine after 13 you have to like actually get very mindful of what comes next because i'm assuming you you have not the keys of the kingdom but something similar to that right you got nominated for a golden globe yeah and so yeah that was zero to 100 All of a sudden, I think when I got nominated for the Golden Globe, I was...

[807] And now you really have to go like, okay, so now I have a lot more options.

[808] So it's kind of important what I pick.

[809] Yeah, it was a nightmare.

[810] It's very stressful, isn't it?

[811] It was very stressful, yeah.

[812] Because before that, I just did it.

[813] And it was always like a big surprise to people.

[814] And it was like, watch this because you don't know what's coming, you know?

[815] Yeah.

[816] And I was really confident.

[817] I was confident in my abilities.

[818] Then all of a sudden, everyone was looking at me and they were expecting greatness.

[819] and that was new.

[820] You start feeling fraudulent maybe.

[821] Oh, yeah.

[822] I mean, I had a really hard time the next movie that I did because I was extremely nervous.

[823] And I don't, I had never gotten nervous before, though.

[824] Yeah, it's like having like your first album be a gigantic hit or it's daunting.

[825] It is.

[826] And was there an actor that you were, like, had set your sights on?

[827] Like, oh, that's the career I want at that age.

[828] Jody Foster was always the thing.

[829] Always Jody Foster.

[830] It's always Jody Foster.

[831] Interesting.

[832] Yeah, she's actually, isn't she the model for the Copper Tone baby?

[833] Is she?

[834] I believe so.

[835] And I think she was in the commercials as a kid because there's a story.

[836] Remember she got attacked by a lion or something?

[837] I look this up.

[838] This is a real story.

[839] Wow.

[840] Yeah, when she was a kid.

[841] I will not fuck with wild cats, by the way.

[842] Yeah.

[843] No. Whenever they've been like that.

[844] like a bear i worked with the big bear before but i will not fuck with lions i don't care of there if there's like uh an electric no there this is my favorite thing about um uh i don't know if you ever heard mike tyson on uh stern but he's the best interview ever he's the most honest human being probably ever to be interviewed and um howard's like didn't you have tigers at one point and he's like howard i was crazy i had these two tigers i slept with them every night i wake up in the middle of the night they're fighting each other Howard and wake up in a bed with two tigers fighting each other that's a real thing he lived in a bedroom with two tigers and would go to sleep who would be that confident that they would just tear you to shreds in the middle of the night I don't know somebody's obviously got a lot of issues so when you hear that story are you, does your mind go straight to oh he was convicted of like do you get nervous if I tell his Mike Tyson's story And you seem to be going.

[845] Well, obviously, my first thought is like, yeah.

[846] Yeah, I was just like, as I was telling it, I'm like, oh, I wonder if that's like a kind of triggering person to bring up.

[847] And are you worried if you laugh at the story?

[848] You're somehow condoning that.

[849] No. I mean, because if you, yeah, I mean, I'll go into how I feel about all that.

[850] But, you know, yeah, that sounds weird.

[851] And maybe grandiose, uh, eccentric.

[852] Yeah.

[853] So super.

[854] I don't know.

[855] Well, and he's like very admittedly.

[856] like, I was crazy.

[857] He's like, I thought I could talk to them, Howard.

[858] Like, he thought he was communicating with Tigers.

[859] Okay.

[860] Oh, man. Enough about him.

[861] So, so you were thinking Jody Foster.

[862] So after 13, what, what comes next?

[863] So my first role after that was a film called Down in the Valley.

[864] With Edward Norton.

[865] Yes, yeah.

[866] And you play his lover?

[867] Yeah, I was 16.

[868] Whoa.

[869] It was my first sex scene.

[870] Oh, my goodness.

[871] Yeah.

[872] Oh, my goodness.

[873] Wait, and were you playing six?

[874] You were playing a teenager.

[875] Yeah.

[876] Oh, wow.

[877] Well, this is something.

[878] It was not supposed to be a good relationship.

[879] He ends up like, well, I don't want to like give it away.

[880] But yeah, I think you can give away down in the valley.

[881] It's been out for like 15 years, right?

[882] Yeah, I think we're fine.

[883] I mean, he like shoots her.

[884] So, yeah, no, it wasn't, it's not a good thing.

[885] It's not a good thing.

[886] And this, this becomes the first part of a pattern that I, realized while reading about you today, you've played a bunch of people's really younger lover.

[887] Yeah.

[888] And what do you think about that?

[889] I've actually been thinking about a lot recently, actually.

[890] Because, you know, when you're that age, you feel older and you don't see yourself like that.

[891] And it's harder to take a step back and go like, is this?

[892] Should we?

[893] No, you're just excited that you're going to be peers with somebody that you totally, you totally, respect and has won an Academy Award like to be peers with Edward Norton is an incredibly amazing opportunity yeah absolutely and um and it was a great experience making the movie and Edward and I are actually still really good friends um but uh yeah you know I don't know how I feel about it because I you know on the one hand I feel like uh it was not a good relationship and I'm hoping that it's certainly, I hope the message wasn't that this was okay in any way.

[894] Yeah.

[895] Because I hope that's what we were showing.

[896] But, you know, but I do think about that.

[897] I think about it, you know, even when I do Westworld, which, you know, obviously the themes in there are about human nature and violence and, you know, existentialism and things like that.

[898] But I, of course, think about, wow, I'm on this really violent show.

[899] Uh -huh.

[900] But I think things like that are a double -edged sword a lot of the times because you can't, sometimes you can't get a certain message across without that or without showing it, you know, and or showing for what it is.

[901] So it's hard.

[902] I think a lot of artists and filmmakers have to ask themselves those questions a lot.

[903] Well, a lot of things are happening simultaneously that are all true.

[904] So you at no point in any of these roles were disempowered.

[905] you were empowered so there's real no like there's no issue for you personally in the moment right the experiential part of your your experience um yet in reflection you can probably go like oh wow i'm a part of this well -worn thing where male writers write stories about old men fucking young girls and oh wow i was a part of all that even though i was empowered during it i was like I was, but also, you know, I was going after the good roles.

[906] I was going after the roles that I thought were the best of the bunch.

[907] And so that also tells you how limited.

[908] Yeah, they are.

[909] And especially when you're that age, you're usually the ingenue, you know, you're either manic pixie dream girl or you're the virgin, you know, and you're this thing.

[910] And it's hard to see you in any other way or with death, which is why I love 13 so much.

[911] Um, so for a while, it was just like, okay, I think I'm just going to be the sex pot for a while or do my best to at least have some depth in that.

[912] Um, because there's not a lot of stuff to choose from when you're in that age.

[913] Right.

[914] So what one of the, one of the appeals had to be, well, these are movies with great actors and I want to be a part of them and this would be a fun role to play.

[915] Mm -hmm.

[916] What part of it was also like, oh, I'm at an age now where I want to display my sexuality.

[917] Like how much of it was your own like, yeah, that's exactly.

[918] what I want to play.

[919] I never really went after them for the sexuality aspect of it.

[920] But yeah, I don't think that that came into play.

[921] I think it was really about the directors and it was about the actors and it was wanting to do good work with good people.

[922] But obviously, looking back on it, you go, oh, did I help normalize this idea of, you know, younger women?

[923] Well, I'm in, by the way, I'm in no way implying that you should have any guilt over any of this.

[924] I'm not going like, let's make a judgment about this.

[925] No, no, but I think it's I'm just being honest.

[926] It's like, of course I've had that thought.

[927] I also think you were in likely the last paradigm where that's a thing.

[928] Like that is, that was what movies were at that time.

[929] And I don't think going forward it's going to be a thing really.

[930] Yeah, it's becoming less and less normalized, which I think is a good thing.

[931] And by the way, I've been socialized in that paradigm.

[932] And even the other day, like our friend Hannah has this amazing new song.

[933] She wants to make a video.

[934] And I said, please, let's dance in the video.

[935] So then we started coming up with this whole thing.

[936] At a certain point, I had to go into the bedroom and ask Kristen.

[937] I'm like, I told her the idea, and she's like, oh, that's great.

[938] And then I came in at one point.

[939] And I'm like, am I the guy?

[940] Like, I'm 44.

[941] And I think it's fine that I'm dancing with this 23 -year -old girl.

[942] Like, am I just, am I blind?

[943] Am I doing the thing?

[944] Yes, am I doing the thing?

[945] Because it feels completely normal.

[946] Like, I've come up with a conceit where that's part.

[947] part of the whole thing, you know, blah, blah, blah.

[948] And I was just like, some voice was like, oh, God, I think you're maybe participating in this thing where you think you should be dancing with a 23 -year -old in a video.

[949] But it is so normal.

[950] I mean, that's the thing.

[951] Even when I was doing this movie, it was, I never, you know, it was normal.

[952] What else is complicated is in real life, younger women go out with older men.

[953] Sure.

[954] And vice versa as well.

[955] Well, not so much vice versa.

[956] Like, sadly.

[957] But you don't see a lot of, uh, four.

[958] 45 -year -old women dating 22 -year -old guys.

[959] Right.

[960] I've seen it once in L .A. And I was very aware of it, as was everyone else.

[961] Yeah, we all know exactly what you're talking about.

[962] And I was very proud of that female.

[963] And I was like, go get it, girl.

[964] Stay tuned for more armchair expert, if you dare.

[965] So it's all complicated because it's not black and white.

[966] No. There's like, I don't believe ever in art we should pretending we live in a different reality than we live in.

[967] This is the double -edged sword aspect of it, yeah.

[968] Yeah, like part of it's like, no, I'm going to write what shit is real.

[969] That's what I'm my obligations to do that.

[970] And this is part of what's real.

[971] But then yet this perpetuates this thing.

[972] So it's really all complicated.

[973] I'm not all for pretending we live in a world we don't live in.

[974] Right.

[975] And yet I have two little girls that I want to have good role models out there in the world for them.

[976] Yeah, absolutely.

[977] So it's tricky, right?

[978] It is tricky, yeah.

[979] My hope is that anything that I have done, I hope there was a lesson behind it and I feel like it wasn't just there to be gratuitous or, you know, my hope is that I chose things that there's much more to it and more to learn from it and it's part of the storytelling and it's, you know.

[980] I don't think you would have agreed to do any one of these roles had they been literally a one -dimensional sex doll for this person.

[981] Yeah, yeah.

[982] But it is, but yeah, it's definitely something that I've thought about.

[983] Yeah, it's really interesting.

[984] Now, how are you, so you want to be Jody Foster, that I can comprehend, but are you not tempted by the low -hanging fruit of, like, go make a shitload of money?

[985] You must have gotten offered, like, franchise -type stuff.

[986] Yeah, but I have a hard time doing things I don't want to do.

[987] It's weird.

[988] I have this unique thing.

[989] But it makes me really unhappy if my heart's not in something.

[990] And especially growing up, it just wasn't worth it to me. And I just always had this feeling that it might be a slower burn, but that I just wanted to do roles that I connected with or that moved me or that I felt were saying something interesting and that were real.

[991] And that's, I felt like integrity still had currency.

[992] And I feel like that has Proven itself.

[993] Yeah, correct in my case.

[994] Is there any movie that you either turned down or just didn't meet on or something that you regret the hell out of?

[995] Oh, there's so many.

[996] I look back and I'm like, oh, fuck.

[997] I should have just done that, man. That was dumb.

[998] Tell me one of them.

[999] Oh, God.

[1000] Oh, I'd have to think.

[1001] Well, I think.

[1002] Because a lot of these movies turn out to be way better than you think they're going to be, right?

[1003] And you're like, shit.

[1004] You're like, I remember reading the script for 500 days of summer and going, I don't know, then didn't even want to go see it because I'd already read the script and someone drug me. I was like, that was a fucking riot.

[1005] I should have 100 % met up.

[1006] Like, that was, I couldn't have imagined what was in the director's head.

[1007] Yeah, exactly.

[1008] Some things it's hard to translate on the page, I know.

[1009] Or even like, think prior to the dark night, you're hearing like Batman.

[1010] You're like, I don't want to be in Batman.

[1011] and then Christopher Nolan directs Batman you're like oh wait I think that was the best movie the whole year oopsies that was yeah that was a cool one yeah not that I had any uh invitation no no in any part um I did uh I did get sent the script for mean girls after 13 and they they really wanted me to mean on it or be a part of it and uh I was already doing a film that was very similar called pretty persuasion um and so i turned it down i chose the right i was already attached to and i love pretty persuasion but obviously like no one in this room knows that movie and everybody knows mean girls well on top of the mean girls is awesome yeah exactly so it's like well like i made a choice and i again that's like that goes into the box of um i don't know is Tina fay more than a seriant live writer and then you find out of that movie like oh yeah and then some But that's kind of the movie you found that out in.

[1012] Right, yeah.

[1013] But it's a weird road to go down because let's say you did mean girls.

[1014] Like, you don't know what the rest of your life would be if you did that.

[1015] Or if it would even been as good of a movie if I had done it.

[1016] You know, like obviously it worked because all the pieces fell where they were supposed to.

[1017] And that's what made it such a success.

[1018] So like, I don't even think I should have done.

[1019] If you had done that movie, we would be doing this interview on a yacht.

[1020] Okay?

[1021] We would have helicoptered in.

[1022] I don't know, man. So how does the wrestler come about?

[1023] That one, I was actually, the first time I saw Recruit for a Dream, I was doing 13, and it was such a game changer for me, and it really inspired me while I was doing that.

[1024] It just put me in a completely different headspace.

[1025] Oh, it makes you feel insane.

[1026] Oh, yeah, yeah.

[1027] Especially the mom who's on Dexedrine, who starts vacuuming uncontrollably, all that stuff.

[1028] The acting, the filmmaking, just everything about it.

[1029] So I became a huge Darren Aronovsky fan.

[1030] And then, uh, he wanted to meet with me on this film.

[1031] And what was funny is it was kind of, um, right after the fountain and, um, which I think people had mixed, some people had mixed feelings about, like, some people just fucking loved it.

[1032] And some were like, I don't know what's happening.

[1033] Yeah.

[1034] Um, and so people were like hesitant to work with Dary.

[1035] And I was like, are you kidding me?

[1036] Right.

[1037] He's a genius.

[1038] Like, where, where's your head?

[1039] And then they said, yeah, had Mickey Rourke's attached to it.

[1040] And like, we just don't know if you should do this.

[1041] And so I kind of had to fight for that and say, no, I really think you guys are wrong.

[1042] And I'm going to do this because it's going to be great.

[1043] Yeah.

[1044] But I was not being pushed into doing that.

[1045] I kind of went after it.

[1046] And I met with Aaron.

[1047] And then he basically said, you know, I want Mickey Work to do this.

[1048] And I think if he does it, you guys would be a really great team.

[1049] If he doesn't, I don't, you know, I don't know who's going to be.

[1050] the person for that whoever we get the geometry would yeah yeah so i just kind of waited and then um okay and there is a moment in the wrestler that as my um it's tied first place in my very favorite acting moment ever it's tied with brando and on the waterfront it's after he trashes his door and he gets in his van and he looks in the rear of your mirror at himself and he just starts laughing and i had this moment where like my whole body got chills and i was like oh right that's what i do When I'm embarrassed, I don't go sulk, like every single actor would have done.

[1051] I, like, laugh completely uncontrollably at how embarrassed I am at myself.

[1052] And I was like, oh, my God, what a moment.

[1053] That got me. That's great.

[1054] But you were incredible in that movie.

[1055] Thank you.

[1056] Is it, I would be very insecure.

[1057] I would be very nervous working for Aronovsky.

[1058] I would trigger all my less than feelings.

[1059] I would just feel like, am I good enough for this guy?

[1060] it really I love being in the situations and I made a list of directors I really wanted to work with and I've done pretty well on them it was like Aronowski and Todd Haynes and Julie Tamor and these people that I've grown up loving and whenever I get in one of those situations I'm just so happy to be there and it makes it easier for me to do my job because I know I can just go 100 % and And that the person that is, you know, going to catch me and direct me is, you know, somebody I really respect and admire.

[1061] And so it actually makes me work so hard to be as good as I feel like, you know, the person who's making the film.

[1062] And you have some confidence where I'm like, oh, I'm not going to get hung out to dry.

[1063] This person knows what's great.

[1064] And they're not going to put anything in.

[1065] If I go too far, they know what's too far.

[1066] Like is that safety net of like, oh, they have, they know exactly what they want.

[1067] Yeah, they're going to be a partner in this.

[1068] They're going to really.

[1069] Part of it and direct me. Are there a million takes?

[1070] On the wrestler, not particularly, no. Sometimes we would shoot really quickly.

[1071] I think the big scenes with Mickey and I, certainly the fight scene took all night.

[1072] I split my finger open when we were doing the scene.

[1073] The fight scene, when I was throwing stuff at Mickey, I grabbed one of the soda cans and squeezed it and threw it out of him.

[1074] And then I was doing the scene, and I was like, oh, my hand's wet.

[1075] Some of the soda must have gotten on it.

[1076] I looked down, it was just covered in blood.

[1077] And I had just split my finger open and I started getting faint just at the sight of the blood.

[1078] I went to lay down and they were like, okay, so there's like two options.

[1079] I was like, okay, what are they?

[1080] Like, so we can send you to the hospital now and you can maybe get a couple stitches and then we don't get the rest of the scene.

[1081] I was like, okay, that's not an option.

[1082] So what's the other option?

[1083] They were like, we can glue it.

[1084] Yeah, yeah.

[1085] Yeah.

[1086] And Mickey Works, like looking at you smoking a cigarette.

[1087] it, you know, and he just shot, you know, I think in the scene where he's getting their stapling stuff on it, they were actually doing that.

[1088] There's a lot of stuff in the movie that's real.

[1089] And so, what am I going to do?

[1090] Like, no?

[1091] Yeah.

[1092] I need to go to hospital.

[1093] So, yeah, I just glued it and moved on.

[1094] Miki and I were really good friends for a moment.

[1095] And I think that was also at a time in my life when I was, you know, really kind of wild and partying.

[1096] And so he seems like the type of person you'd be drawn to out of curiosity.

[1097] Yeah, and I think he also saw kind of where I was at and kind of wanted to take me under his wing a bit.

[1098] Sure.

[1099] Because he could see, oh, maybe you're not in the best place.

[1100] Do you like drinking?

[1101] Do you like drugs?

[1102] Do you like any of that stuff?

[1103] Like me, do you like that stuff?

[1104] I love that stuff.

[1105] In my 30s now with a kid, like I'm definitely not going as hard as I did.

[1106] You're done.

[1107] I'm done.

[1108] Yeah, I'm very much done.

[1109] I think a lot of that was self -destructive and a coping mechanism for things.

[1110] Did we meet?

[1111] Do you remember meeting ever with Maryland?

[1112] I think so.

[1113] When was that?

[1114] But I don't remember a lot of them.

[1115] Yeah.

[1116] I'm surprised.

[1117] You do.

[1118] I feel like we did at a party.

[1119] I think we did too.

[1120] I did drugs with him at one point, which was lovely.

[1121] Yeah.

[1122] He's very open about his drug use.

[1123] As am I. Well, you know.

[1124] I'm very pro -experimenting and I'm very anti -addiction.

[1125] He always says he doesn't trust you if you don't do drugs, which I feel is a trap to get people to do drugs, which is kind of fucked up.

[1126] Hey, I think there's drugs out there that, in the words of Bill Hicks, there's better drugs and better drugs for you that are not legal.

[1127] And I think a lot of the legal drugs are actually fucking horrible.

[1128] And certain drugs can be used as spiritual tools.

[1129] And, you know, I definitely think weed should be legal everywhere.

[1130] Me too.

[1131] Yeah.

[1132] Very pro.

[1133] I'd even be pro mushrooms being legal.

[1134] Absolutely.

[1135] I have never.

[1136] I'm the most addictive person in the world.

[1137] If you give me cocaine, I am up until it's gone.

[1138] If that's four days, whatever that is.

[1139] But shrooms, I have never taken shrooms.

[1140] And as I'm coming off of them, thought, we need more shrooms.

[1141] They just don't work that way.

[1142] They do not that kind of drug.

[1143] Yeah.

[1144] They do not work that way.

[1145] No one's going to be on like a three -day shroom bender.

[1146] I just don't believe that that would happen to anybody.

[1147] I think eventually they start losing their potency anyway.

[1148] I don't even think you could keep that going for three days.

[1149] But I don't know.

[1150] Like I've spent time in Amsterdam and I'm like, wow, look at this place where drugs are legal and like it's not on fire.

[1151] And everyone seems to be doing really well.

[1152] And they're actually not phased by this.

[1153] And they're kind of rolling their eyes at the tourists that want to come and like freak out.

[1154] You know, they're bored of it.

[1155] You know, so yeah, I think it's, I think it's, I've been there many times and been like, this seems to be utopia.

[1156] Would this work at home?

[1157] I don't know.

[1158] I do think, I'm often tempted that we should be modeling all these things after different countries, you know?

[1159] Right.

[1160] Well, seeing what works where and why.

[1161] Yeah, like that Michael Moore documentary, Who to Invade Next.

[1162] Did you see that?

[1163] No. It was tremendous.

[1164] You basically go to countries that are doing something better than us and say, like, we're stealing this for us.

[1165] but one of them was like the way they do prisons in Sweden it's like they're outside all day there's no walls blah the recidivism rate is you know 10 % instead of 80 % like here and so I start going like yes this is it we should do this but then I also go much different countries Sweden in our country I mean with 300 million people the income inequality is so much more dramatic There's a lot of variables that I think are in the soup of whether or not legal drugs works or not in a certain place.

[1166] Yes.

[1167] So were you, did you leap at Westworld or were you like, no, I'm not doing TV.

[1168] I'm doing movies.

[1169] And then also how much does having a child impact the decisions you make?

[1170] Greatly.

[1171] I wasn't looking to do television.

[1172] but I have done things with HBO in the past and was always a really big fan and thought they made really great work.

[1173] And I didn't read the script until I had the part, basically.

[1174] I mean, we were kind of really walking into that blind, but I knew.

[1175] Because they just weren't showing it to anyone?

[1176] Yeah, it was just so confidential.

[1177] You kind of had to just trust.

[1178] Yeah, it's interesting.

[1179] I'm like, if you get the whole script for a fucking, Tarantino movie, I can get the fucking script for Fantastic Four.

[1180] I remember auditioning for Fantastic Four and they're not getting out the script.

[1181] I'm like, are you fucking kidding?

[1182] This is not an M Night Shyamalan movie.

[1183] Fantastic Four, you're not going to read.

[1184] I was furious.

[1185] Yeah, it was like that a bit.

[1186] But I did go in and meet with Jonah and Lisa, the creators.

[1187] And they sort of explained to me a little overview of the park and what would be possible and how they wanted to, you know, the original was from the perspective of the humans, and this was very much by the perspective of the host.

[1188] But I really had no idea what show I was going to be on.

[1189] I didn't know I was, this was going to be like the new Lost, which I was a big fan of, um, I just didn't know, uh, that we were going to go that deep.

[1190] I thought, okay, cool, yeah, I bet this is going to be a really cool show.

[1191] It's going to be about robots.

[1192] It's probably going to, you know, have a lot of really cool special effects.

[1193] And this seems like a cool part.

[1194] And, um, wasn't until about episode four that I really started to freak out.

[1195] out and run around to everyone I knew, going, you don't understand.

[1196] Oh, my God.

[1197] You don't know what we're doing.

[1198] It's not at all what you think.

[1199] Holy shit.

[1200] You know, like they're doing this.

[1201] Oh, my God.

[1202] Like, I was.

[1203] Well, it turns out they shouldn't have let you read the script because you were going around town.

[1204] I wasn't telling them.

[1205] I wasn't telling them the details.

[1206] I was just going, you don't know what show we're making.

[1207] I know you think you do, but you don't.

[1208] And I was very excited.

[1209] Now, just before Westworld, Kristen and I were huge true blood fans.

[1210] Oh, yeah.

[1211] Were you a fan of the show before you went on?

[1212] I kind of sought out, Ellen Ball, and was like, hey, man, anything.

[1213] I'll come on and do it.

[1214] Put me in coach.

[1215] Yeah, put me in coach, please.

[1216] I did a bad, bad thing.

[1217] Oh, if I hear that theme song, things start happening to me physiologically.

[1218] Oh, yeah.

[1219] I have total, like, Pavlovian response to that theme song.

[1220] It's so good.

[1221] I want to give someone a lap dance.

[1222] What's going on?

[1223] Yeah.

[1224] I want to drink true blood and give a lap dance.

[1225] Yeah.

[1226] It's funny, too, when, like, shows that you fall in love with, like, the first you hear the title sequence song you're like yeah i don't know that's a big swing then my episode like five when you love i'm like that's the best song they could have possibly picked for this it grew on me in a way that i was like yeah and then when you heard those first few chords you were like oh it's happening so was it really fun to because i don't think i've ever been like a huge fan of something and then got gotten to enter the world yes was it super fun it was wild and that's when i really started questioning the nature of my reality actually because I was like wait a minute right simulation because yeah I was it's too good I was starting yeah I watched the show I loved the first season so much and then yeah just went after it I didn't go after a lot of stuff but I went after that and yeah they were like well luckily we had this new character coming on who is the queen of Louisiana and I kind of fainted yeah it was a great and they were like in all you scenes are with Stephen Moore and Alexander Scarsguard.

[1227] And I was like, ooh.

[1228] So I had a great time.

[1229] But it was really trippy to actually then suddenly be a fan of something and then be on the set.

[1230] And they're like, here are your fangs.

[1231] And then Stephen comes up to me. And he's like, right, you want me to show you how to do the, you know, the flick the fangs out?

[1232] And I was like, I cannot believe this is happening.

[1233] Like, all of a sudden, you know, Bill is here.

[1234] And he's teaching me how to flick my fangs out.

[1235] And what is life?

[1236] So you and my wife are going to be in something soon, which is going to be a big fun surprise.

[1237] Yeah.

[1238] And you're an incredible singer.

[1239] I can't actually say that because I don't have the musical background to make a qualified assessment.

[1240] So I always say to my wife, I'm like, she sounds damn good to me. Is she good?

[1241] And she's like, oh, she's a fucking for real singer.

[1242] Like Kristen thinks you're a real gangster singer.

[1243] Oh, that's rad.

[1244] I love her.

[1245] Yeah.

[1246] So you guys are going to sing.

[1247] That's all.

[1248] I'm just going to say there'll be some singing.

[1249] You see you look really nervous.

[1250] Oh, getting a little close to the fire.

[1251] So you're in Westworld.

[1252] There's more seasons coming, I presume.

[1253] Yeah, we're just about to start up again the end of March.

[1254] I certainly feel like I'm having an existential crisis for real after each season because so much of it is based in reality, reality, you know, in quotations.

[1255] and on real technologies that are being worked on now.

[1256] And the more I get to talk to the tech people, the more I really get to learn about it, the more I realize that this is actually very close.

[1257] Oh, yeah.

[1258] And I start to question my own sanity.

[1259] Because now I'm pretty sure, like, we're all in a simulation.

[1260] I'm just kind of accepted that.

[1261] Well, I have a theory on that, though.

[1262] Okay, ooh, I want to hear it.

[1263] Like, Elon Musk is a big proponent of the Matrix simulation, right?

[1264] I sometimes think I'm, well, Sunday, Nora Jones sat on the couch, sang for Monica and I was like no way this is real right yeah yes so my conclusion is is is is it's believing that we're living in a simulation is the gift of having abundance like I say no one's in a coal mine right now going this is got to be a simulation you know like there's just I recognize it's we know on some level we have way too much good fortune way too much good luck this shouldn't we're not entitled to this This is ridiculous.

[1265] We don't fucking, you know, stack rocks all day to make money.

[1266] It just feels too good to be true.

[1267] Right.

[1268] So I think it's a much more appealing theory for people who are just generally spoiled in life, as I am.

[1269] Right.

[1270] To an unfathomable degree.

[1271] I just don't think the person at Arby's right now slicing beef is like, oh boy, I can't wait to expose this as a simulation.

[1272] I knew it.

[1273] You never know, though, you know.

[1274] And then there's all that black mirror stuff where it's like, oh, maybe we just are forcing those people to be in the simulations because we're taking fit.

[1275] Right.

[1276] Are they in your simulation?

[1277] Right.

[1278] Who simulation are they in, right?

[1279] Am I in your simulation?

[1280] You and my simulation?

[1281] I don't know.

[1282] Well, we'll just have to see.

[1283] You are in the position my mother was in.

[1284] My mom was a single mom, but she had three of us.

[1285] And this bitch found time to date.

[1286] She made it happen.

[1287] Is it challenging?

[1288] Gene?

[1289] It is.

[1290] I have managed to date and am currently dating.

[1291] But for me, just dating in general is really interesting because it's like, hey, I'm a famous bisexual mother of a survivor.

[1292] And what else do you know about me?

[1293] So who wants to crack at this?

[1294] You know, I guess it's really, you know, and I think that can be like, ooh, this is exciting to a lot of people.

[1295] And then they're like, oh, wow, this actually is like, these are real things and not just, like, fun ideas and, like, I think I'm going to get the fuck out of here.

[1296] Yeah, yeah.

[1297] You have to be careful when you have a kid.

[1298] I feel like I'm really conscious of him and keeping him separate from it unless something's really serious, you know, and trying to, you know, because he's still young.

[1299] And it's, he's just now getting to that point where he's, like, very protective of her mom.

[1300] Yeah.

[1301] Like, who the fuck are you?

[1302] Yes.

[1303] You know, I was about that age and I would start noticing, I've said this before in here, my mom has big boo.

[1304] and I fucking hated it when she'd wear like tank tops.

[1305] We go to the grocery store.

[1306] It's around five or six where I was like, all these men are looking at my mom's boobs.

[1307] I fucking hate this.

[1308] Yeah, mom, put on a coat.

[1309] Yeah, I think he's in that mode where he's like, right, but I'm going to get you and dad back together.

[1310] Like that's what I'm like, oh, honey.

[1311] I luckily never had that.

[1312] I was like, we don't need that guy.

[1313] I was three.

[1314] He was young, three, two.

[1315] as well, hauling him in divorce a year and a half?

[1316] He was just a year old.

[1317] Okay, but he still wants you guys to be together.

[1318] Well, it wasn't until he got older until about right now that he goes, that he understood that, wait a minute, wait, you guys were together at one point?

[1319] He was like, well, what the fuck happened?

[1320] You guys were hooking up?

[1321] Yeah, he's like, this was the thing.

[1322] So, you know, I think it was almost like he had just learned it for the first time and had an understanding what that meant.

[1323] So he was like, oh, well, I just got to get you two.

[1324] like you do guys just gotta work this out like yeah parent trap oh sweet you know this is really complicated some logistical issues we'd have firing out first also irreconcilable differences yeah well what's funny is even like the my girls are at an age where it's like i'll mention my ex -girlfriend brie and they're like wait you you love someone else other than mommy and i'm like yeah i've loved to several people before mommy and then laid with many more that i didn't love but right you know just yeah like them realizing like, oh, you were another person that didn't involve mom and or us.

[1325] Yeah.

[1326] It's, I think it's really trippy for them.

[1327] But we're just like dead honest for better or worse.

[1328] Well, I think you, yeah, you should be as honest as you can be with kids without, you know, traumatizing them.

[1329] Well, Evan, it's really, really wonderful to me. Oh, no. Good to see you again.

[1330] I almost forgot.

[1331] I thought you were forgetting on purpose.

[1332] I wasn't going to ring it up.

[1333] No, I wasn't.

[1334] So we had a Twitter.

[1335] I did.

[1336] We had a Twitter thing.

[1337] It was so silly.

[1338] But so I made fun of, I believe, some big game hunters.

[1339] Yes, like you're up.

[1340] Yes.

[1341] Saying they were compensating for small penises.

[1342] Yes.

[1343] And that's why they got to go over and kill lions.

[1344] And then you were like your penis shaming or I don't want to misrepresent your.

[1345] No, I think I said something like this is an insult to men with small penises because it was like, oh, don't, don't drag them into this.

[1346] Like they're like meaning like they're so much worse.

[1347] And I didn't, and the thing about Twitter, this also happened to me with Ben Affleck and it became this huge deal.

[1348] And the person, I was like, oh my God, if you had heard the tone of my voice when I wrote this treat, it was the equivalent of an eye roll.

[1349] And then people hear like, you're like, fuck you, you're fucking doing this.

[1350] You're like, no, no, no, that's definitely not what I was doing.

[1351] But I also like, I did that because I feel this weird responsibility now, especially that I have a son.

[1352] You know, like the ideas that come with what a man is and what makes a man and da -da -da.

[1353] And so, and, you know, especially in this era of like, you know, if you're around something and, you know, it might be a joke or might be this, like, you have to say like, hey, just, I don't know, like, make sure like you're just, you know, like penis shaming when you're doing this because there's a lot of toxic shit out there right now that I don't want to perpetuate.

[1354] But I also saw where you were coming from.

[1355] Well, and I never, you know, I just like you.

[1356] So it never, it didn't bother me. Yeah.

[1357] I mean, I felt, I guess the only thing that bothered me was like, I would hate to think you don't know where I'm coming from, which is what I'm making fun of two things.

[1358] I'm making fun of compensating, which I'm against, whatever the fuck your thing is.

[1359] Yeah, you were kind of pointing out like, this is silly.

[1360] Like you shouldn't be compensating for this with this bullshit.

[1361] Yeah.

[1362] Yes.

[1363] And then, of course, killing lions, which I don't really think anyone needs to fucking kill a lion to feel like a man, just personally, fight me to come to my house and fight me instead of killing a line.

[1364] I'll oblige you.

[1365] I'm not making fun of small penises.

[1366] But a couple things happened.

[1367] As soon as I saw that tweet, I was like, A, God, I hope she knows where I'm coming from.

[1368] B, I was like, I know she has a child.

[1369] I now believe it's probably a boy.

[1370] Like I went to, you're probably part of it as being a protective mother.

[1371] It was totally not.

[1372] I don't want my son growing up worrying about if his penis is big enough or not.

[1373] Yeah, that's not what makes a man yet.

[1374] But what's interesting is, again, this gets into do we acknowledge reality are, do we not?

[1375] Now, I don't think there's anything wrong with having a small or a big penis.

[1376] I think both can be pleasurable.

[1377] I think both come with pros and cons.

[1378] Some women prefer big ones.

[1379] Some prefer small ones.

[1380] I think that's the reality.

[1381] Right.

[1382] But I do know 100 % of men are concerned about the size of their penis.

[1383] Absolutely.

[1384] Because for each other, funny enough.

[1385] I have noticed this.

[1386] And I have brought this up to my male friends.

[1387] And I've been like, you know, you guys are the ones that talk about penis size.

[1388] Yes.

[1389] Women do not.

[1390] They don't care.

[1391] They don't fucking talk about it.

[1392] Like, you're the ones that are obsessed with it.

[1393] Exactly.

[1394] 100 % agree.

[1395] So I do know that that is a thing.

[1396] It is a thing.

[1397] And people definitely feel like they have to compensate.

[1398] Yeah.

[1399] In among us men, it's all we think about.

[1400] You know from the time you're 12, the size of every one of your friends' penises.

[1401] It's just like, interesting to me, man. We're all showing each other.

[1402] Yeah.

[1403] We're finding out where we rank.

[1404] We're all obsessed with rank and status.

[1405] It's fucking primate, social, group dynamic shit.

[1406] Right.

[1407] And that's why it's all.

[1408] for men.

[1409] Because I'm not competing for social status with you.

[1410] I'm competing with the dude next to me. I'm like trying to find out where I fit among the males around me. Right.

[1411] And that happens to be a visual indicator like height is.

[1412] So what's interesting is I would also say don't compensate and be a Napoleon.

[1413] So I'm not making fun of short people, but I'm saying if you're short, fucking deal with it.

[1414] Don't be a prick and be an asshole to everyone because you're short.

[1415] Yes.

[1416] So it's all tricky.

[1417] It's like.

[1418] I do totally see where you're coming from and why.

[1419] And if I had a little boy, the last thing I would want on him is like panicking and his little penis isn't big enough.

[1420] Right.

[1421] So it was also, I think, you know, definitely being like, hey, let's also not, you know, say that like it's a bad thing.

[1422] But also I think it was also a joke of like, are you kidding?

[1423] These guys are like way fucking worse.

[1424] Like I'd rather have a small penis than kill a funny defenseless animal, you digs.

[1425] You know what I mean?

[1426] Like positioning the corpse of the, But I know I totally see where you're coming from.

[1427] And it's a really funny thing for us to have snacked.

[1428] Yeah.

[1429] And it led me and I was like, oh, we should talk about that.

[1430] And then I was like, I don't have a great defense for it other than like I'm just, I think, coming out on something that's real.

[1431] Yeah.

[1432] Which isn't really necessarily a defense of it.

[1433] But it does bring up a broader conversation, which is like, there's still an obligation for comedians to make jokes.

[1434] Yeah.

[1435] And jokes are going to have someone loses.

[1436] and it's it's the mechanics and the math of a joke someone's going to be made fun of and as we evolve which we should that's going to change yeah I recognize it yet there's another part of my brain going y 'all we still need to be able to make how else are we shaming the guy who kills the lion like there has to be right a comedic angle to shame that guy without just going oh this guy's a piece of shit which I guess I could but it's just not as funny right and you didn't say like this guy must have a small penis you were like He's obviously compensating.

[1437] This guy comes too fast.

[1438] Jesus, no, I...

[1439] Just sends a hundred million men to the liquor store immediately.

[1440] And when I do things like that, because I've gotten into things with people before, and I, like, I've gotten into it with a few people, but they know that I love them.

[1441] And that, like, I also am just like, hey, here's my opinion.

[1442] And I'm totally open to a dialogue about it if you want to have a dialogue about it.

[1443] I'm not saying you're a shitty person or, like, attacking your character saying, like, you're an asshole for saying.

[1444] It's just like, I always like to throw more things into the mix.

[1445] And if it starts a conversation, sure.

[1446] But I was worried for a second because I was like, oh, no, I hope I didn't do the thing where I just, like, lobbed a grenade at me. Yeah, threw a bunch of hate at him.

[1447] And, like, because people are going to jump on this and be like, yeah, you suck.

[1448] And I was like, oh, no, like, did I just like unleash the hounds?

[1449] So if I did that, I'm also sorry, because I know you can really start some shit.

[1450] Oh, and it's funny because when I'm.

[1451] evaluating whether or not to tweet something more and more I just don't but but in the past when I'm when I'm evaluating it I'm almost not thinking about who the people I'll offend will be right I'm more worried about the people that are in theory on my side ostensibly on my side who are going to take it in a much worse direction like I'm almost I'm more scared to the people that would support me than the people that are just blatantly against me right so I can totally relate to that of like oh no hold on let's stop calling him a sexist pig that's not really what I was saying.

[1452] Right.

[1453] Yeah, exactly.

[1454] Um, well, you're fun and you're a blast.

[1455] Yeah, you're awesome.

[1456] Thank you so much for coming in.

[1457] And, um, I'll refrain from those, you know, penis shaming.

[1458] Yeah, sweet.

[1459] I'll, I can figure out how.

[1460] It's a good challenge.

[1461] I'll construct it in another way and still point out what a fucking coward someone is who kills a line.

[1462] Yeah, that's ridiculous.

[1463] All right.

[1464] Love you.

[1465] Thank you for coming in.

[1466] Thank you.

[1467] And now my favorite part of the show, the fact check with my soulmate Monica Padman.

[1468] Gotta be starting something.

[1469] Got to be starting something.

[1470] You got to do da -da -da -da -da -do.

[1471] You know how to -da -da -do.

[1472] That's a song by Mike Jackson.

[1473] Yeah.

[1474] Oh, boy.

[1475] Mike Jackson.

[1476] No, we are not getting sucked into the Mike Jackson vortex.

[1477] Okay.

[1478] No, I hurt your feelings again.

[1479] I can't stop.

[1480] it today.

[1481] You didn't hurt my feeling.

[1482] What do you want to talk about Mike Jackson?

[1483] We don't have, we're not going to.

[1484] Let's talk about it.

[1485] Evan Rachel Wood.

[1486] What if Michael had a middle name?

[1487] Do you think he would have been as popular?

[1488] Michael Gary Jackson.

[1489] Who's to say?

[1490] I bet he would have been.

[1491] He was very powerful.

[1492] You know, when I first said Michael Gary Jackson, I thought it was just a random name that popped in my head.

[1493] But do you know why I said that?

[1494] I know, I think.

[1495] Because he was from Gary, Indiana.

[1496] Oh, really?

[1497] I bet that's why Gary popped out.

[1498] Maybe.

[1499] I was going through my little file about What do I know about Mike Jackson?

[1500] We don't know where our brains, whole information.

[1501] No, pops.

[1502] Just pops out.

[1503] Pop out.

[1504] Evan.

[1505] Rachel?

[1506] What?

[1507] Yeah.

[1508] Do you think anyone calls her?

[1509] Of course.

[1510] That's what I was just about to say.

[1511] Say it.

[1512] No. ERW.

[1513] Oh, wow.

[1514] Yeah.

[1515] Oh.

[1516] That sounds hard to say.

[1517] A .R. L. I hope they do.

[1518] That's fun.

[1519] Well, like P .T. P .T. Anderson.

[1520] PTA.

[1521] People say Paul Thomas Anderson.

[1522] They say PTA.

[1523] Yeah.

[1524] Which I always get confused with a PTA meeting.

[1525] Of course.

[1526] You know, parent teacher association.

[1527] What is it?

[1528] Parent teacher.

[1529] Anus.

[1530] Parent teacher.

[1531] Anus.

[1532] Yeah.

[1533] PTA meetings.

[1534] Do those exist?

[1535] Oh, yeah.

[1536] They do.

[1537] And they're called that?

[1538] I believe so because I'll see people's.

[1539] tweets and stuff where they've like just attended a PTA meeting or something and I have the same thought you do oh that's still a thing yeah but you you have a daughter in kindergarten yeah but I've not been to a PTA meeting I can tell you that much but my wife's on the board of the school which is really responsible of her that's true I'll have to ask her if they hold PTA meetings that's very twoo yeah but this was great I'm so glad we had her on me too yeah you know when she left remember we talked about when people leave we talk about them at you of course yeah we're just little monkeys who gossip like all other little monkeys yeah exactly and it's just so funny we all have these preconceptions of people big time and so much of that is because of the media uh -huh and our imaginations and our imaginations but based off of yeah and our jealousies and fears yeah Yeah, but based off like pictures or headlines or something, we quickly develop a whole persona.

[1540] Yeah, well, we're so as animals drawn to story.

[1541] So there has to be an accompanying narrative about somebody.

[1542] And some people can accidentally just fall into a narrative that the media likes.

[1543] Like the media, don't forget, the media is a story like any other movie.

[1544] You see where there's a good guy and there's a villain.

[1545] And I think what we keep learning over and over in here is like almost any human being you sit down with for two hours and look in the eyes.

[1546] You're going to see them as a human.

[1547] They're just a person.

[1548] I know.

[1549] I know.

[1550] And it's all made up.

[1551] It's all made up.

[1552] Yeah.

[1553] It's kind of like this.

[1554] What I was pointing out about the Michael Cohen testimony.

[1555] Uh -huh.

[1556] As I was watching that testimony.

[1557] And I was enjoying the fact that there was a lawyer being interviewed in the hearing.

[1558] Because generally it's like Mark Zuckerberg.

[1559] Right.

[1560] And they're like, sir, did you have any?

[1561] And he's like, boop.

[1562] You know, and he's terrified answering.

[1563] He's like looking over at 10 other people.

[1564] Right.

[1565] So it was just fun right out of the gates to see a lawyer be asked questions.

[1566] He's in his element.

[1567] Yeah.

[1568] And he could outmaneuver sometimes.

[1569] And he was maybe one step ahead of some of those people who aren't lawyers on that committee.

[1570] Right.

[1571] So that right of the gates was interesting to me. And then, of course, because of my politics in my liberal view, I'm enjoying that he's saying disparaging things about this person.

[1572] I disagree with.

[1573] Exactly.

[1574] Right.

[1575] So that's tasty.

[1576] So that starts happening.

[1577] And then about 45 minutes in, I start.

[1578] actually looking at his face thinking, oh, he's got kind of a deputy dog kind of kind, cartoony face.

[1579] And I bet this guy's actually fun at a dinner party, right?

[1580] Yeah.

[1581] So I've come all the way to I think he's great at a dinner party and I want to hang with him for an evening.

[1582] Uh -huh.

[1583] And then I have this like epiphany.

[1584] Epiphany where I was like, oh, wait, three months ago, when this person had a different opinion than mine, I hated him.

[1585] Yeah.

[1586] I looked at his face and I was like, oh.

[1587] that's one of those piece of shit backroom dealing motherfuckers i you know i just filled in all the gaps with my own projection because his opinion was different than mine or his point of view or his position was different and so all my whole conclusion after watching that testimony was i'm so untrustworthy i'm so not objective it's like if you if you agree with me then i think you're great and if you disagree with me i think you're a monster and i was mostly just embarrassed for myself and mostly all of us because all the liberals all of a sudden love Michael Cohen.

[1588] Yeah.

[1589] And all the conservatives hate them now.

[1590] But just four months ago, it was completely flopped and we hated them and they loved a person's the same.

[1591] Person hasn't changed.

[1592] They're saying different words.

[1593] They are, though.

[1594] They are presenting.

[1595] I mean, you're right.

[1596] You are right.

[1597] We're just, it's also fragile.

[1598] But, but in general, in life, I think it's a good.

[1599] thing that the way people appear to you physically is changes based on whether you think they're good or they're bad or they or well it's great for mating it's great for mating it's really great for mating because like i have friends um that i have to remember what i thought they looked like when i met them because i have some friends that i think are so fucking attractive like tens like i'm Yeah.

[1600] What woman wouldn't die to be with this guy?

[1601] Right.

[1602] Because I just see their integrity, their humor, all these things.

[1603] Yeah.

[1604] But then I'll go, oh, it was like when I first looked at him?

[1605] Yeah.

[1606] I didn't think he was a 10.

[1607] I thought he was a 5.

[1608] Oh.

[1609] And I have to remember when I introduce him to a female friend that she's going to initially see a 5 until she lets his personality infect him.

[1610] It's really interesting.

[1611] Yeah, it is interesting.

[1612] And so you're right.

[1613] I think it's a good quality of ours that will end up reassigning.

[1614] The opposite way, too, if someone's super physically attractive, but they are evil or doing, you know, they're, they have, they're selfish or whatever.

[1615] It's good that they become less physically attractive to you.

[1616] Although that didn't stop these women who are obsessed with.

[1617] It's not Jeffrey Dahmer.

[1618] Who is the thing?

[1619] Ted Bundy.

[1620] Ted Bundy.

[1621] Isn't it amazing that some women know what he did?

[1622] And they don't even deny that.

[1623] yet they're horny as fuck for him.

[1624] That is a pathology, though.

[1625] That's not like a general.

[1626] Yeah, that's like some unhealthy stuff.

[1627] You have rape fantasies or something.

[1628] Some people have some unhealthy.

[1629] Fantasy.

[1630] Proclivities.

[1631] Remember there was that famous case like eight years ago where two people met on the internet and the one person wanted to be murdered by a person.

[1632] You remember this?

[1633] No, I don't remember.

[1634] Oh my God.

[1635] The whole thing was consensual.

[1636] Their fantasy was to be murdered and they found someone and someone drove like five states away and they did it.

[1637] Yeah.

[1638] Yeah.

[1639] Oh, God.

[1640] Yeah.

[1641] Isn't that crazy?

[1642] Yeah.

[1643] It's all that stuff is on the periphery, I would say.

[1644] That's not, that's not normal healthy behavior for a human.

[1645] But I think it's so it's good.

[1646] It's outside of the range.

[1647] Exactly.

[1648] Yeah.

[1649] So anyway.

[1650] It is, it is interesting where you draw the line like, you know, would you want to be.

[1651] There's like some safe.

[1652] Like I guess people who like 50 shades of gray or whatever, like maybe they want to be tied up.

[1653] They want to be restrained.

[1654] Maybe they want to choke a little bit.

[1655] Like, okay, we're all still in the, you know, gray, it's fine.

[1656] Oh, 50 shades of gray.

[1657] I guess that's why it's called.

[1658] Yeah, and then when does it transfer over?

[1659] Even I think about this when people will famously die of autoerotic asphyxiation.

[1660] Yeah, I know.

[1661] Yeah.

[1662] I have never allowed myself to experiment with that because I thought, what if it really is fantastic?

[1663] That's just way too dangerous of a game to be playing.

[1664] Don't do that.

[1665] Yeah.

[1666] Yeah.

[1667] Yeah.

[1668] Well, if we learned anything today, it's the not toy with auto -erotic asphyxiation.

[1669] Okay, so did Steven Spielberg, like, wear a bear costume or have somebody wear a bear costume on close encounters?

[1670] Hmm.

[1671] Hmm.

[1672] Carrie Guffy, who plays Little Barry Guller.

[1673] I don't know if that's how you say it.

[1674] Had never acted before.

[1675] The little boy had never acted before.

[1676] So Spielberg set up ways to coax a performance out of the three -year -old.

[1677] To get a shot of Guffy reacting to the aliens first approaching, Spielberg slowly unwrapped a present for the young actor just off camera, making him smile.

[1678] Oh, that one's fun.

[1679] It is fun.

[1680] I think it gets a little worse.

[1681] A little darker.

[1682] Not every scene in the movie is him being happy.

[1683] He even exclaims, toys, toys in the final take.

[1684] Uh -oh.

[1685] What if that was the name of the alien?

[1686] It might have been.

[1687] I never saw it.

[1688] Hello.

[1689] I am Toys, the alien.

[1690] We come in, Pete.

[1691] This is my brother, sprinklers, my cousin, licorice.

[1692] Those are great names for aliens.

[1693] I like that.

[1694] Beep, beep, beep.

[1695] He's a robot.

[1696] I don't even, what am I doing?

[1697] That's not an alien voice.

[1698] We don't know alien voice.

[1699] We come in peace.

[1700] Yeah, sure.

[1701] My name is Toys.

[1702] My brother, presence is here.

[1703] Well, it would be even greater if they came to kill us, but that was their names.

[1704] Yeah, it would be okay.

[1705] To get the boy to react to the aliens off screen, Spielberg had Guffie walk up to his mark where, unbeknownst to the little actor, two crew members were dressed as a gorilla and a clown standing behind cardboard blinds.

[1706] When Guffey entered the kitchen, Spielberg dropped the first blind, revealing the clown to scare him, and then dropped the other blind to reveal the gorilla, which scared him even more.

[1707] Oh, Jesus.

[1708] Oh, boy.

[1709] The gorilla then took off his mask, revealing the film's makeup man, Bob, who Guffy recognized, causing him to laugh and smile in the final.

[1710] final take.

[1711] Is there any feedback from Guffy as to whether or not he appreciated all this?

[1712] I don't know.

[1713] We have to reach out to Guffy.

[1714] Let's have him on here.

[1715] Okay.

[1716] Carrie Guffy.

[1717] What if he came on and you came out of the bathroom in a pair of outfit and said him back?

[1718] And we just said, hey, we just wanted to help you go back in time to recall that memory.

[1719] Yeah, we're doing a Scientology.

[1720] Scientology experiment.

[1721] I'm sure he has PTSD.

[1722] Speaking of PTSD.

[1723] Okay.

[1724] Here we are.

[1725] Jody Foster.

[1726] Was she the copper -tone baby?

[1727] And did she get attacked by a lion?

[1728] A fun piece of trivia associated with Jody Foster was that she was the model for the copper -tone girl.

[1729] Wrong.

[1730] In fact, when the original copper -tone ad debuted in 1959, Jody Foster was not even born.

[1731] The copper -tone ad was the brainchild of artist Joyce Ballantine brand, who used her daughter, Cheryl, as the model for the famous ad.

[1732] Cheryl Foster.

[1733] No, Cheryl Ballantle.

[1734] Valentine brand.

[1735] Ballantime.

[1736] Happy Valentine's Day.

[1737] Is it true that?

[1738] Oh, my God.

[1739] Do you think they're just pronouncing it's the Spanish?

[1740] With Indian accent.

[1741] No, Spanish.

[1742] V is B. Oh, I don't.

[1743] I think her name is Valentine.

[1744] It's spelled B -A -L -L -A -N -T -Y -N -E.

[1745] Too many letters.

[1746] It's a long one.

[1747] Yeah, cut it down.

[1748] However, Jody Foster was in a copper -tone commercial.

[1749] It was a television ad that ran.

[1750] of the 1960s when she was two.

[1751] That's an easy mistake.

[1752] Sure.

[1753] Okay, but when she was on the movie, Napoleon and Samantha, Foster was mauled by a lion.

[1754] Holy fuck.

[1755] Malled by a substitute lion used in the movie on the set and still has scars on her back and her stomach.

[1756] Oh, my God, dude.

[1757] She said, I was walking ahead of him.

[1758] He was on an invisible leash.

[1759] Yeah.

[1760] There's no such thing.

[1761] Yeah.

[1762] Let me tell you what a invisible leash is air.

[1763] Some piano wire.

[1764] He was in an invisible cage.

[1765] He got sick of me being slow.

[1766] Who?

[1767] Picked me up and held me sideways, shook me like a dog.

[1768] I was in shock and thought it was an earthquake.

[1769] I turned around and saw the entire crew running off in the other direction.

[1770] Oh, my gosh.

[1771] The trainer then said, drop it.

[1772] And he opened his mouth and dropped me. The incident left her with lifelong, a lurophobia, extreme or rational fear of cats.

[1773] There is nothing irrational about a fear of fucking lions.

[1774] Are you kidding me?

[1775] We can't label that.

[1776] I know.

[1777] Cats in general, but they need to have differentiation.

[1778] Oh, by the way, terrible news that Rob shared with me today.

[1779] What?

[1780] You know, I was so pumped that that guy killed a mountain lion in Colorado.

[1781] A guy was on a run in Colorado, got attacked by a mountain lion.

[1782] Okay.

[1783] And fought, got attacked, fought it off, and strangled it.

[1784] And I thought this guy had lived out my ultimate fantasy.

[1785] I've always wanted to test myself against a large mountain cat.

[1786] Of course.

[1787] I think they're about 110 pounds when they're big.

[1788] And I think I could do it.

[1789] Okay.

[1790] So me and Charlie, the perfect 10, we're sharing the story.

[1791] You know, all the bros are sharing the story.

[1792] It's like a dream come true, fight off a cat, protect our family, the whole thing.

[1793] Well, I went so far as you recall to tell Wabiwob, track that guy down.

[1794] I want to talk to him on the podcast.

[1795] Well, today, I don't know if it was today, whatever, it was announced.

[1796] Okay.

[1797] The autopsy was back from the Mount Lion, and they're now calling it a kitten.

[1798] It was only 30 pounds in a few months old.

[1799] Oh, okay, but still a lion.

[1800] No, no, no, no, no. A 30 guys.

[1801] I thought you meant a kitten like a little kitten.

[1802] Kid on the street.

[1803] It's officially called a kitten.

[1804] It was so young that it, you know, all cats that are kittens, he killed a kitten.

[1805] No, a lion kitten.

[1806] Yeah.

[1807] That's still scary.

[1808] Not a tabby cat or something.

[1809] Yeah, that's what it, yeah, don't short -sallet.

[1810] But it was only like 30 pounds or something.

[1811] He said 30 to 40 pounds, they're estimated.

[1812] 30 to 40 pounds?

[1813] Lion?

[1814] That's still impressive.

[1815] Well, the wildlife association that conducted this researcher on the cat, they still commend him.

[1816] They still said he did the right thing and everything.

[1817] Then it got, but it got way more specific about the encounter because he had also hit him in the head with a rock.

[1818] I mean, this kitten got its ass.

[1819] kicked and then strangled.

[1820] It just it was a lot different than we all had fantasized.

[1821] Okay, well, you guys are nuts because I think that's still incredibly brave if a lion, even well kitten, use the terminology.

[1822] A lion kitten.

[1823] You can't just say kitten.

[1824] That sounds like a tiny cute baby cat.

[1825] A kitty lion.

[1826] And then people would hate that guy if he killed a actual kid.

[1827] I think the guy's a great guy.

[1828] Let me just be clear.

[1829] We love him.

[1830] Yeah.

[1831] But he He did the, he, he was brave.

[1832] That's brave.

[1833] To fight a 30 pound lion kitten?

[1834] Yes.

[1835] A lion is still a lion.

[1836] You could kill a 30 pound lion kitten.

[1837] That would be that lion kitten's lunch.

[1838] My ass.

[1839] I know maximum mouse.

[1840] And when the shit hits the fan, you're, you're all fighter.

[1841] You're flighter, you're flighter for a while, but then you turn to fighter.

[1842] Like, you're like a bear.

[1843] Like a bear will run from dogs, okay?

[1844] Let me tell you about brown bears.

[1845] Okay, tell me. Well, first of all, brown bears are bigger.

[1846] than black bears, okay?

[1847] Let me also tell you that brown bears are the biggest bears by weight.

[1848] You sound like white on the office, actually.

[1849] He, there's a whole bit.

[1850] I think there's like a whole storyline, a whole bit that he knows so much about brown bears.

[1851] About Ursula.

[1852] Now listen, brown bears are the biggest bears in the world if we're measuring bears by weight.

[1853] They're the heaviest bears.

[1854] Okay.

[1855] Now, polar bear is the tallest bear.

[1856] We've got like 11 foot polar bears on record.

[1857] a black bear much smaller few hundred pounds at best cute but you know some of these kodiaks and shit we're talking 1 ,200 pounds of bear part of the bear the bear I was in a scene with was a thousand pound bear what a thousand enormous okay what even like truly if he's a thousand pounds if he's attacking is a bullet gonna kill him it's got to hit his heart you know you you could you could shoot a bear many times yeah yeah yeah Yeah, you're going to need a headshot to make sure.

[1858] But back to...

[1859] So a brown bear will run from a few dogs.

[1860] These hunters, they have dogs, and they'll unleash the dogs on the bear.

[1861] And the dogs chase the bear.

[1862] The bear runs till the bear gets tired.

[1863] When the bear gets tired, they don't want to run anymore.

[1864] It turns around, it takes out the dogs.

[1865] Oh.

[1866] Which is weird because it could have always taken out the dogs.

[1867] Right.

[1868] But the bear will take out the dogs.

[1869] But now the bear's really tired.

[1870] And then the bozo fucking hunter who wants to kill his beautiful.

[1871] bear he steps up on it and puts it unfolds his lawn chair sits down and then shoots it but anyways my point is you're like a bear interesting well i like that analogy let me be clear about my position on hunting okay okay i absolutely believe in hunting in michigan we have a deer problem that if not regulated by hunting the state has to call here herds of them because they're in the road and humans die yeah I'm totally cool with it.

[1872] You want to go deer hunting?

[1873] Awesome, bow hunting.

[1874] Great.

[1875] People who do that and they eat it and they feed their family.

[1876] Great.

[1877] People who want to go out and kill a predator for their own ego, I'm not for it.

[1878] Yeah.

[1879] It's preposterous to me. I just want to be clear on my hunting stands.

[1880] Okay.

[1881] You're right.

[1882] You're probably, what, anti -hunting across the board?

[1883] I'm pretty anti -hunting.

[1884] I am.

[1885] I mean, but I see what you mean.

[1886] I'm more lenient on hunting animals that they're.

[1887] There's, like, some massive excess.

[1888] But I, I, I don't know.

[1889] I don't like it.

[1890] I don't like it.

[1891] I don't, I don't think that should be a sport.

[1892] Well, I personally have no desire to end anything's life.

[1893] Exactly.

[1894] Like, the idea that that's bringing joy.

[1895] Unless someone's going 55 in the left lane, I don't want to end anyone's life.

[1896] Aside from those people who need to be murdered.

[1897] Well, the people that you yelled at on the street today.

[1898] Just one.

[1899] there were two people in there oh sure sure one I was yelling at the driver though not the passenger the nice lady sitting next but two nice ladies yeah you and her did you guys make eye contact like all of these gorillas I did not look at them it'd been great if you guys shared a moment like look at these fucking gorillas we're stuck with why do we hang out with these people anyway okay so I'm a bear huh yeah but you're also a mouse let's just be clear I don't think You're laying down and let someone kill you.

[1900] I think you're...

[1901] I think that's true.

[1902] Yeah, I think there's...

[1903] This is not an invitation for people to come to my house and try.

[1904] I don't think anyone's reading it that way.

[1905] Okay.

[1906] Well, I just want to be clear about that.

[1907] No. Yeah, when I was little and I used to imagine kidnappers coming.

[1908] Mm -hmm.

[1909] I would imagine getting under the bed and then, but then lifting myself up the top of the bottom of the bed.

[1910] Mm -hmm.

[1911] And holding myself there so that if...

[1912] they just opened, if they just quickly looked under there, they wouldn't see me. Right.

[1913] Yeah.

[1914] But you didn't go so far as to practice holding yourself up.

[1915] I don't think so.

[1916] Because I wouldn't have been able to do it.

[1917] It can't be done.

[1918] Well, I don't think anyone can't.

[1919] But in my five -year -old brain, I could do that.

[1920] Yeah, because your feet aren't hands.

[1921] That's the big.

[1922] Unfortunately, no, it's not hands now.

[1923] Except for my sister, Carly has tans.

[1924] We call them her tans.

[1925] You don't know that?

[1926] How could you not know that?

[1927] You've never seen my sister.

[1928] I've seen her feet.

[1929] My sister can, like, open envelopes with her.

[1930] her feet.

[1931] She could use tweezers on your face with her feet.

[1932] We call them her tans.

[1933] I have no idea.

[1934] Her toe hands.

[1935] Yeah, she's so skilled.

[1936] When we get back to the house, I'm going to make her do a demonstration.

[1937] Yeah, she's unbelievably skilled at it.

[1938] Wow.

[1939] That's amazing.

[1940] Tans, huh?

[1941] Remember that Dan Lewis film, My Left Foot?

[1942] Yeah.

[1943] She's almost as good as that guy.

[1944] I have never seen it.

[1945] Okay.

[1946] I haven't either.

[1947] But I understand that he's missing his arms and he learned, he learns, learns to use his fee to do everything and I think of course he really did learn to do it because he's Dan Lewis.

[1948] Sure.

[1949] Yeah.

[1950] That's cool.

[1951] Yeah.

[1952] I want to be good at that.

[1953] Oh, we were just talking.

[1954] He should be D .D. Lewis.

[1955] What?

[1956] D .D. Lewis.

[1957] Daniel Day Lewis.

[1958] Oh.

[1959] That'd be cool.

[1960] D .D .L. D .D .L or D. D .D .L. All right.

[1961] Well, back to ERW.

[1962] Back to Bairs.

[1963] Back to Jody Foster.

[1964] Can you believe it?

[1965] That's terrible.

[1966] Think of the guilt you'd experience as the parents.

[1967] Like, you were kind of convinced by the animal wrangler like, oh, this lion, she's, she's worked with everyone.

[1968] She's so nice.

[1969] It was a substitute lion.

[1970] I don't even know what that means.

[1971] I don't either.

[1972] That's preposterous.

[1973] Like what they went down to the zoo and just grabbed one?

[1974] I guess their original one must have not been.

[1975] Didn't show up on time.

[1976] I got partied.

[1977] The night before.

[1978] Partied too hard.

[1979] Yeah.

[1980] God, what a nightmare.

[1981] What a night That lion had Think how bad that lion felt Because he had drank the night Before he found out his stand in His substitute His understudy Got handsy with the talent Okay Well we talk about R. Kelly Uh -huh And since there's been some updates He's been arrested He's been arrested He led out on a million dollar bail right?

[1982] I think $100 ,000 bail and he was he was accused of sexually abusing four individuals three of whom were under the age of 17 at the time of the alleged crimes and the youngest victim was 14 and guys that documentary is so good it's incredible you have to watch it again I think we might have said it but dude the underage aspect is just the tip of the iceberg I mean he is he was a for real like sociopath Alleged sociopathic cult leader where everyone's living by his rules.

[1983] Yes.

[1984] They have to ask him to go to the bathroom, allegedly.

[1985] Yeah.

[1986] And eat.

[1987] And he allegedly didn't let them eat for three days at a time.

[1988] If they were naughty.

[1989] I mean, it's fucking dark.

[1990] He like changed some of their appearance.

[1991] It, like, made them look like an allegedly made one look like a boy.

[1992] Yeah.

[1993] Oh, it is.

[1994] It is.

[1995] I allegedly puked when I saw it.

[1996] You have just the chances of you being.

[1997] What?

[1998] Wobby's got a fact.

[1999] The person who paid his bail is a daycare worker who met him on a cruise.

[2000] Come on.

[2001] What are the odds of that?

[2002] Something tells me there's something more going on.

[2003] Yeah.

[2004] Also, Arkelly was on a cruise?

[2005] Yeah, sounds weird.

[2006] That sounds suspicious already.

[2007] Yeah, exactly.

[2008] People like that don't go on cruises, do they?

[2009] No. When he was released, there was like so many people waiting for him cheering.

[2010] Again still?

[2011] No, they're still.

[2012] to love him people do who i know i mean i get it i get it and yeah and it's really sad it's that the black community has been so regularly their heroes have been targeted by the fbi i know they've been assassinated they you know there's been active campaigns to discredit really great members of the black community so there's a history where the white man says the black man is a piece of So I get, I understand the historical context.

[2013] And that, you shouldn't be mad at them.

[2014] It makes it, you should feel so sad that, that they're in a, that's the position.

[2015] And it should make us more aware.

[2016] It's, we're causing some of this.

[2017] Like, we're all a part of why someone would be cheering for R. Kelly to come out of that prison.

[2018] Or also that they would have cheered for O .J. Simpson to be released because so many of them have been wrongly convicted that finally.

[2019] we white people knew what they felt like yeah it's it's like the oj documentary is great about that because you know i i was so uh what it was all happening just offended that this obvious murderer had gotten off yeah but when i watched the documentary and they put it into the context that just months before you had all those officers beating um rodney king rodney king i know and they were all acquitted.

[2020] I know.

[2021] And the black community's like, welcome to the feeling, motherfucker.

[2022] I know.

[2023] That's how it feels.

[2024] Yeah, I get it.

[2025] For that aspect, I was like, I get why they were celebratory because we got a taste of our own medicine.

[2026] Ooh.

[2027] We all got to be better.

[2028] Well, particularly OJ.

[2029] He's got to be better.

[2030] He's got to aim higher.

[2031] Yeah.

[2032] I'm scared to say that.

[2033] I don't want to say bad stuff about him on here.

[2034] What if he comes to kill us?

[2035] Oh.

[2036] He murders him.

[2037] people.

[2038] No, you could beat him.

[2039] He is so crippled up from those football years.

[2040] He is not doing well.

[2041] That's true.

[2042] Yeah.

[2043] And I am a brown bear after all.

[2044] Yeah, you are, brown mouse.

[2045] Codiac mouse.

[2046] Okay.

[2047] You asked if some of her experiences with abuse, you said at the beginning, did you ever feel like you were fulfilling a Sid Nancy fantasy?

[2048] Oh, uh -huh.

[2049] She said yes, too.

[2050] And that is a movie.

[2051] Well, Sid Vicious was the bass player for the sex pistols.

[2052] Right.

[2053] And then they did a movie called Sid Nancy.

[2054] He OD and I believe she did too.

[2055] But yeah, they're the original heroin chic couple.

[2056] Right.

[2057] They were fucking hot messes.

[2058] They were famous.

[2059] They were trashy.

[2060] They were shooting dope in alleys.

[2061] Yeah.

[2062] And they were famous.

[2063] Yeah.

[2064] And so people have Sid and Nancy fantasies.

[2065] People who tattoo on themselves, a beautiful mess.

[2066] those people have a Sid -Nancy fantasy.

[2067] Yeah, yeah.

[2068] I kind of really, I mean, I had a Bukowski fantasy.

[2069] It wasn't exactly Sid and Nancy.

[2070] I didn't ever want to shoot dope, but they'd want to be drunk all the time.

[2071] Yeah, I think it's just like it means you're attractive.

[2072] There's something like attractive about chaos.

[2073] I think that's part of it.

[2074] And also it's you don't feel accepted by the system you're in.

[2075] So you want to send the biggest fuck you to it.

[2076] I'm rejecting the system.

[2077] Mm -hmm.

[2078] Like I'm taking my pocket.

[2079] hour back.

[2080] I'm not playing your game and I'm sending you obvious signals that I'm not.

[2081] Right.

[2082] But in, in a relationship parallel, I think it's more about chaos and drama.

[2083] Drama.

[2084] And like, it's not real if you don't have like this.

[2085] Heightened everything.

[2086] Yeah.

[2087] I see the appeal of that.

[2088] I've never really, that's not been my cup of tea.

[2089] No, I like contentment and harmony in a relationship.

[2090] I ain't all about.

[2091] like people who love a volatile relationship like that yeah i had a single one yeah i've never like people who love to fight and then fuck to make up i've never gotten that personally i mean again i i had a relationship like that and yeah the sex was i guess really interesting those post dramatic fights but what a gross cycle for me i didn't enjoy it yeah i was like this this is twisted some people i mean i thought oh we talked about it but I thought in the HBO, the home box office show, with all the women in it.

[2092] Big little lies.

[2093] The way their sex life was predicated on the violence and abuse, I found to be really fascinating.

[2094] I know.

[2095] Well, it's tricky, I think, because if women feel in a relationship, like, sex is the thing they have power over, then.

[2096] Well, by the way, they do.

[2097] They do, yeah.

[2098] But if you're, if you feel like, sorry, that's the only place you have power.

[2099] I think that's where some things get really dicey with a relationship because then they're using it.

[2100] They're using the power when they can and they're withholding and they feel powerless so often that they need to, ugh, it just is.

[2101] Doesn't sound very healthy.

[2102] I don't think it's healthy.

[2103] No. Someone's like, someone out there's like, fuck.

[2104] Fuck you.

[2105] It's awesome sex.

[2106] I'm going to pick it.

[2107] I'm sure it doesn't mean it's not awesome just because it's not healthy.

[2108] Yeah, that's true.

[2109] Yeah, candy bars.

[2110] They're not healthy and they're awesome.

[2111] Yeah, exactly.

[2112] You talked about who to invade next.

[2113] You really love that documentary.

[2114] You talk about it a lot.

[2115] I'm sorry.

[2116] Yeah, I do.

[2117] You don't have to apologize.

[2118] You said the recidivism rate in Swedish prisons is 10 % and 80 % here.

[2119] Those were two wild guesses.

[2120] Yeah, you made those up.

[2121] Yeah.

[2122] But according to the National Institute of Justice, about 68 % of 405 ,000 prisoners released in 30 states in 2005.

[2123] That's a long time ago.

[2124] But still, were arrested for a new crime within three years of their release from prison.

[2125] So 70 % within three years.

[2126] Three years and 77 % were arrested within five years.

[2127] So you were very close.

[2128] But the recidivism rate in Sweden is around 40%.

[2129] Oh, okay.

[2130] Although 40 is better than 80.

[2131] Much, but also much more than 10.

[2132] Way more than 10.

[2133] Four times as much.

[2134] Four times as much, yeah.

[2135] But it's far less than in the U .S. and most European countries.

[2136] Okay.

[2137] So I was wrong and I was a little bit right.

[2138] You were right about the overarching thing.

[2139] The numbers were wrong.

[2140] That's really it.

[2141] That's it?

[2142] Yeah.

[2143] Well, just to reiterate, we really enjoyed Evan.

[2144] Yeah.

[2145] And she was not what I was expecting.

[2146] No, me either.

[2147] even from my like pseudo friendship with her on Twitter she was not what I was she just looked to me like uh I mean to use a cliche like the girl next door right you know what I'm saying yeah like in the in the in the Maryland phase she seemed very exotic and Nancy ass kind of dangerous and dangerous and then we meet her and she just seemed like a wholesome girl from Missouri yeah yeah I mean that's also age like she was sort of saying that she alludes to her 20s being an experimental phase yeah yeah and she's kids you know she's still young as fuck I mean she's younger than you right was she we were one month older than her something like that yeah her first guest younger than you no debbie Deborah Deborah Ryan was younger than me she sure probably had a may is May younger than me I don't think so or around the same age maybe we you're both babies in the 80s who are small babies in the 80s what if instead of us calling you guys Millennials.

[2148] We called you babies in the 80s.

[2149] Oh, that'd be fun.

[2150] That's way better than millennials.

[2151] Millennials seems too high tech to me futuristic.

[2152] Well, we are high tech.

[2153] That's why we're called that.

[2154] Is it?

[2155] I think.

[2156] I think it's because...

[2157] Tech boom, I bet.

[2158] I bet that is why.

[2159] I think it's because we entered a new millennium while you were in your infancy.

[2160] 2000.

[2161] Like, what does that mean?

[2162] Like, we weren't born in the year 2000.

[2163] Man, Y2K.

[2164] People were freaked.

[2165] Something tells me you were freaked.

[2166] Of course.

[2167] But of course.

[2168] I was freaked out a little bit.

[2169] I was at a country and western show down in Tennessee with Aaron Weekly.

[2170] Oh.

[2171] Yeah.

[2172] Bringing in the new millennia.

[2173] We were in the least futuristic manner possible, a roadside hillbilly bar with the country band.

[2174] That'd be a good place for you to be if the world ended.

[2175] You would never know.

[2176] Like this group of folks and the venue were not relying on any technology.

[2177] There was like an old -fashioned cash register when you walked in.

[2178] Everyone's still using cash.

[2179] We would have never known.

[2180] That's great.

[2181] But what were you doing?

[2182] You were under your bed clutching to the bed frame with a bottle of water in your pocket?

[2183] No. I was in my grandparents' house.

[2184] Were you all just sitting there holding hands in a circle?

[2185] No, everyone was fine.

[2186] But my mom was on call.

[2187] I do remember that because she's a programmer.

[2188] No one knew what was going to happen with all the computer systems.

[2189] So she had to like work and she had to be on call.

[2190] No, that was a whole thing.

[2191] what a bizarre moment for them they were probably all just like waiting holding their breath and then all of a sudden it was 2000 and also was it 2000 in england was it 2000 in new york i guess all these computer date systems were set up for new york time maybe i mean and then they just they probably were like they probably just all looked at you like did did anything happen what happened nothing happened isn't it kind of crazy like we won't we won't experience another one of those the next one we will not experience no and And hopefully they'll realize in the year 3 ,000, that didn't happen in the year 2000.

[2192] Everyone should just keep their shit together.

[2193] In 3 ,000, who knows?

[2194] Who even knows what the world will be like?

[2195] Actually, yeah.

[2196] In a computer model, like our essence might be assisting.

[2197] They might bring us back somehow.

[2198] Or we'll just transfer our being into a machine.

[2199] Well, I don't think we're going to have that in our lifetime.

[2200] So I just think, no, I don't.

[2201] But I think they might have that eventually and they might have some way of, bringing us back bringing us back anyway you're dead for 400 years and all of a sudden you're just like I would not be happy about it you came to and there was a bunch of I am presents this this is gift box all right well I love you and I love the arm cherries and love everybody Follow Armchair Expert on the Wondry app, Amazon Music, or wherever you get your podcasts.

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