S4 E1: There's No Comfort to Run To | Season Four - Escaping Jonestown

[0] Wondry Plus subscribers can listen to something was wrong early and ad -free right now.

[1] Join Wondry Plus in the Wondry app or on Apple Podcasts.

[2] I'm Dan Tversky.

[3] In 2011, something strange began to happen at a high school in upstate New York.

[4] A mystery illness, bizarre symptoms, and spreading fast.

[5] What's the answer?

[6] And what do you do if they tell you it's all in your head?

[7] Hysterical.

[8] A new podcast from Wondry and Pineapple Street Studios.

[9] Binge all episodes of hysterical early and ad -free on Wondery Plus.

[10] This podcast is intended for mature audiences and discusses topics that could be triggering to some.

[11] Opinions expressed by guests on the show are their own and do not necessarily represent the views of this podcast.

[12] I am not a therapist or a doctor.

[13] All resources, books, and sources mentioned on the podcast can be found linked in the episode notes.

[14] If you or someone you love is being abused, please contact the National Domestic Fire.

[15] Highlands Hotline at 1 -800 -799 -7233.

[16] If you or someone you love is struggling with a suicidal crisis or emotional distress, you can contact the National Suicide Prevention Lifeline 24 -7 at 1 -800 -273 -8255.

[17] Some of today's episode involves suicidal ideation or thoughts of suicide.

[18] Please take care when listening.

[19] Thank you.

[20] A few months back, I received a message from Leah Nis Bogue, a 22 -year -old listener of the podcast from Dixon, California.

[21] Leah was reaching out because she wondered if I might have any interest into telling her family's story.

[22] Leah's dad, Tom Bogue, and his father, Jim Bogue, were survivors of the People's Temple cult.

[23] Tom and Jim narrowly escaped the massacre at Jonestown on November 18, 1978, when 9808 ,000, 18 other people lost their lives in a mass murder at the hands of an evil gaslighting psychopath named Reverend Jim Jones.

[24] I was taken aback at the information and wondered if I was reading her messages correctly.

[25] Leah let me know her father was a busy guy, as he's the mayor of Dixon, but she hoped that he would make time to speak with me. She herself wanted to know more about her own father's story.

[26] She had heard bits and pieces of her dad's story, and despite his taking part in countless interviews over the past 40 years, her dad Tom's story never really got told.

[27] Most of the media wanted only to use Tom as a prop and gain information about the people's temple leader, the Reverend Jones.

[28] I told Leah I was absolutely interested in talking with her dad and hearing his story.

[29] She told me the next day that he had agreed.

[30] He would let me interview him.

[31] I would was to send my questions over in advance, and a date for the interview was set.

[32] Leah also let me know that, though she hoped he would change his mind, her grandpa Jim would not be willing to speak with me. After all, in the past 40 years, he's never taken part in a recorded interview.

[33] To prepare for my first meeting with Tom, I arrived with some basic knowledge of the People's Temple and the Massacre at Jonestown.

[34] However, I more so focused my research and attention on learning what, descriptively makes a cult a cult.

[35] How does mind control work?

[36] And how does this kind of abuse impact survivors?

[37] I didn't want to get lost in the weeds of the story of the evil cult leader Jones, but rather focus my attention on the ways that cult leaders emotionally abuse and manipulate their members in order to control them.

[38] I'm Tiffany Reese, and this is, something was wrong.

[39] This season, I'll be reading at home.

[40] This season, I'll be referencing the book Combating Colt Mind Control, written by America's leading cult expert and Colt survivor himself, Stephen Hassan.

[41] You can find his book linked in the episode notes.

[42] He writes, Colts are not new.

[43] Throughout history, groups of enthusiasts have sprung up around charismatic leaders of every possible description.

[44] But in recent decades, something has been added, the systematic use of modern psychological techniques to reduce a person's will and gain control over their thoughts, feelings, and behavior.

[45] Over the past half century, undue influence has become more of a science.

[46] Since World War II, intelligence agencies around the world have been aggressively engaged in mind control research and development.

[47] Because of increased media coverage, people in the United States began to become aware of new Colts in the middle to late 1970s.

[48] Then something happened to change the whole way the nation perceived destructive cults.

[49] The Massacre at Jonestown.

[50] News of the Jonestown massacre shocked the world.

[51] In the 1970s, there was little general understanding of unethical mind control, or how widespread its use had already become in society at large.

[52] In the decades following the massacre, cult groups have continued to grow unabated.

[53] New cults appear and older ones grow more sophisticated.

[54] Currently, there are groups using mind control in many different areas of society.

[55] These organizations include religious cults, political cults, psychotherapists, slash educational cults and commercial cults.

[56] Religious cults are best known and most notorious.

[57] These groups focus on religious dogma.

[58] Although most claim to involve the spiritual realm or to follow a strict code of religious principles, it is more common than not for these cult leaders to enjoy a luxurious lifestyle, with the groups owning millions of dollars of real estate and or extensive business enterprises.

[59] political cults often make the news, usually with the word fringe or extremist attached.

[60] These groups are organized around a particular political dogma.

[61] Psychotherapy slash educational cults hold expensive workshops and seminars that provide participants with, quote, insight, and, quote, enlightenment, usually in a hotel conference room.

[62] Commercial cults believe in the dogma of greed.

[63] They deceive and manipulate people.

[64] to work for little or no pay in the hope of getting rich.

[65] Many such pyramid scheme or multi -level marketing organizations promise big money, but in fact fleets their victims.

[66] They also destroy their victims' self -esteem so that they won't complain.

[67] Success depends not on selling products or services, but on recruiting new people who in turn recruit others.

[68] Pimps and human traffickers run their own versions of commercial cults.

[69] While it is important to have a basic understanding of mind control, it is just as important to understand what mind control is not.

[70] Unfortunately, in popular discussions on the subject, the term brainwashing is often used as a synonym for mind control or undue influence.

[71] On the influence continuum, however, brainwashing belongs closer to the most negative, injurious, and extreme end.

[72] Brainwashing is especially effective in producing compliance to demands, such as signing a false confession or denouncing one's government.

[73] People are coerced into specific acts for self -preservation.

[74] Then, once they have acted, their beliefs change to rationalize what they have done.

[75] But these beliefs are usually not well internalized.

[76] If and when the prisoner escapes their field of influence, they are usually able to throw off those beliefs.

[77] Mind control is much more subtle and sophisticated.

[78] The victim typically regards the controllers as friends or peers, so they are much less on guard.

[79] They usually unwittingly participate by cooperating with their controllers, and by giving them private information that they don't realize will be used against them.

[80] The individual is deceived and manipulated, but not directly threatened, into making the prescribed choices.

[81] Emotional Control, the fourth component of the bite model.

[82] to manipulate and narrow the range of a person's feelings.

[83] All or nothing.

[84] Either you are a wonderful chosen member of the elite, someone really special and loved, and part of a wonderful movement, or your broken, unspiritual, have bad karma and are guilty and sinful.

[85] Guilt comes in many forms.

[86] There is historical guilt, for instance, the fact that the United States dropped the atomic bomb on Hiroshima, identity guilt, a thought such as, I'm not living, up to my potential, guilt over past actions, i .e. I cheated on a test, and social guilt, such as people are dying of starvation.

[87] These can all be exploited by destructive cult leaders.

[88] Many members are conditioned to always take the blame so that they respond gratefully whenever a leader points out one of their shortcomings.

[89] Loyalty and devotion are the most highly respected emotions of all.

[90] Members are not allowed to feel or express negative emotions except towards outsiders.

[91] Many groups exercise complete control over interpersonal relationships.

[92] Some even tell members whom they can marry and control the entire relationship, including their sex lives.

[93] People are often kept off balance, praised one minute, and tonguelash the next.

[94] Confession of past sins or wrong attitudes is also a powerful device for emotional control.

[95] Anything you say can and will be used against you.

[96] This device can even extend to blackmail if you leave the cult.

[97] Even when it does not, former members are often scared to speak out just in case their embarrassing secrets are made public.

[98] The most powerful technique for emotional control is phobia indoctrination.

[99] When cult leaders tell the public, members are free to leave anytime they want, the door is open.

[100] They give the impression that members have free will and are simply choosing to stay.

[101] Actually, members may not have a real choice because they have been indoctrinated to fear the outside world.

[102] If a person's emotions are successfully brought under the group's control, their thoughts and behavior will follow.

[103] Each component of the byte model, behavior, information, thought, and emotional control have great influence on the human mind.

[104] Together, they form a totalistic web, one that can be used to manipulate, even the most intelligent, creative, ambitious, and strong -willed people.

[105] Scammers are best known for living the high life until they're forced to trade it all in for handcuffs and an orange jumpsuit once they're finally caught.

[106] I'm Sachi Cole.

[107] And I'm Sarah Haggy.

[108] And we're the host of scam influencers, a weekly podcast from Wondery that takes you along the twists and turns of some of the most infamous scams of all time, the impact on victims and what's left once the facade falls away.

[109] We've covered stories like a shark.

[110] Tang certified entrepreneur who left the show with an investment, but soon faced mounting bills, an active lawsuit followed by Larry King, and no real product to push.

[111] He then began to prey on vulnerable women instead, selling the idea of a future together while stealing from them behind their backs.

[112] To the infamous scams of Real Housewives stars like Teresa Judice, what should have proven to be a major downfall only seemed to solidify her place in the Real Housewives Hall of Fame.

[113] Follow scam influencers on the Wondry app or wherever you get your podcasts.

[114] You can listen to SCAMFluencers early and ad -free right now on Wondry Plus.

[115] I'm Dan Tversky.

[116] In 2011, something strange began to happen at the high school in Leroy, New York.

[117] I was like at my locker and she came up to me and she was like stuttering super bad.

[118] I'm like, stop fucking around.

[119] She's like, I can't.

[120] A mystery illness, bizarre symptoms and spreading fast.

[121] It's like doubling and tripling and it's all these girls.

[122] With a diagnosis, the state tried to keep on the down low.

[123] Everybody thought I was holding something back.

[124] Well, you were holding something back.

[125] Intentionally.

[126] Yeah, well, yeah.

[127] No, it's hysteria.

[128] It's all in your head.

[129] It's not physical.

[130] Oh, my gosh, you're exaggerating.

[131] Is this the largest mass hysteria since the witches of Salem?

[132] Or is it something else entirely?

[133] Something's wrong here.

[134] Something's not right.

[135] Leroy was the new date line and everyone was trying to solve the murder.

[136] A new limited series from Wondery and Pineapple Street Studios, Hysterical.

[137] Follow Hysterical on the Wondery app or wherever you get your podcasts.

[138] You can binge all episodes of hysterical.

[139] early and ad -free right now by joining Wondry Plus.

[140] My interview with Tom got rescheduled twice, thanks to flu season.

[141] Finally, the day arrived for me to travel to Dixon to meet Mayor and Jonestown escapee, Tom Boe.

[142] I pulled up to a cozy house and got excited when I heard greetings from the Bog's family dogs, Bella and Batman.

[143] The family welcomed me in and we sat down at the kitchen table.

[144] Instantly, I was intrigued by Tom's dark sense of humor and his commanding presence.

[145] I nervously set up my new equipment and hoped I hadn't forgotten anything.

[146] Before I could even turn on the mic, Tom began his own interview.

[147] And that's just kind of how Tom rolls.

[148] I asked his daughter Leonis to describe him as a person.

[149] Here's what she said.

[150] Oh, there's so many words.

[151] He talks a lot.

[152] My whole day at work is telling him to stop talking to people the entire day.

[153] like you have one job to do it takes 30 minutes like and he just talks like a lot oh it's all politics all politics he loves politics yes well he's also like really nice and so we have a lot of single moms that come to our shop and like they come to him for all of their problems he is definitely a clown he is always like picking on people like giving people a hard time but it's all It's always in a loving way.

[154] One of the things that he puts off is he's not like an emotional person, if that makes sense.

[155] I'm not even saying like he likes to put off a front.

[156] He just, how do I word this?

[157] What is, it's not, he acts like he could be ruthless.

[158] There we go.

[159] Like, it's fine.

[160] Like, I don't care, you know, but then it's also, he's the kind of guy that brings people into his home and, like, rehabilitates them off drugs.

[161] Like, I can't tell you how many people we've had in our house that he, He was, like, trying to rehabilitate and bring them back to a normal life.

[162] He also, like, says, oh, I don't want any dogs, no animals at home.

[163] But the reason that he says that is because he gets emotionally attached and he gets very upset when they pass away.

[164] So he, like, you know, if that makes sense, he's just very, like, no, no, no, no, all the time.

[165] But it's always, like, for a reason.

[166] I typically imagine cult members to be willing participants in fantastical ideas that resemble fiction.

[167] Tom, however, could not be more of a juxtaposition.

[168] He hated being in the people's temple from the very beginning.

[169] We were living in Redwood Valley and they had, and Jones had started doing the meetings at the Golden Rule in Willits.

[170] That's back when he was still speaking from the Bible.

[171] And I was always kind of a wild child, so to speak, you know, into mischief all the time.

[172] So even from a young age, I was into trouble a lot.

[173] doing things that the people's temple felt I shouldn't be doing.

[174] So that's the way most of my life went.

[175] I was always in trouble, always in trouble.

[176] And because of that, I never got sucked into the words that were coming out of Jones's mouth.

[177] Because you already hated it.

[178] I already hated it.

[179] And you were already not here for it, kind of a thing.

[180] Correct.

[181] And I was already starting to run away at the age of nine.

[182] at that point we were doing the cross -country bus trips and the bus trips of going to San Francisco every week we'd stop in San Francisco and then we'd go on to L .A. for the other meetings.

[183] So at the age of nine, they pulled that up by a rest stop.

[184] And I don't know why, but on that bus, I just started putting together this plan.

[185] Okay, at nine years of age.

[186] And I had a box of food there because we were just coming back for someplace.

[187] And we would all stop at this rest stop.

[188] So we went to stop.

[189] It was kind of a, I'd say in early fall or late spring.

[190] I don't remember exactly what time of year.

[191] And so when I got off, I got off with my sleeping bag wrapped around me. And I had my box of food inside the sleeping bag.

[192] You know, so it's like, so nobody could really see I was carrying this box as food.

[193] And while we were there, I'd actually gone off into these bushes and hid.

[194] And watched the buses pull away.

[195] Nobody had noticed I was missing.

[196] But it was hard to notice somebody missing because the buses were so packed with people.

[197] I mean, there's people not only in the chairs that'd be three deep in a two -chair situation to sit in between the seats.

[198] There was these boards you'd stick between the seat and that'd become like a bench -like seat you would sit on for hours.

[199] People sleeping in the luggage compartments above, down below.

[200] I mean, these buses were packed.

[201] So if somebody came up missing, nobody would notice.

[202] until they got to their destination, and now the person they were supposed to be with and says, hey, you know, at that point, it's like, where's Tommy Bog?

[203] I don't know.

[204] And it actually took them a few hours to run as I was truly gone.

[205] So after they pulled off, I'd climbed up on top of the rest stop, the bathroom area, and I was camping out up there.

[206] How did you feel?

[207] I felt great.

[208] You felt free.

[209] I felt free.

[210] Oh, yeah.

[211] You're like, okay, this is it.

[212] This is it.

[213] I'm on my own now.

[214] Yep.

[215] But that seemed better than staying.

[216] Oh, absolutely.

[217] that speaks volumes absolutely and after being there for a few days i guess one of the maintenance workers had realized that there was somebody up on the roof and it called it in i ended up going to they picked me i spent the night in some church in uh modesto i think and then they sent me to uh my aunts in san francisco and i didn't want to go back then my aunt uncle said i could stay with them oh you were in a quote oh yeah i've told them what was going on oh yeah they knew we were in a cult at that point.

[218] So anyway, yeah, my mom ended up come picking me up and taking me back.

[219] Off of that incident, I was sent to go stay with another family who felt they could control.

[220] Yes.

[221] That could whip you into shape?

[222] Yes.

[223] Precisely, quite literally.

[224] Quite literally.

[225] Yes, yes.

[226] The rubber hose is the old bit.

[227] And which really just drummed up more hatred.

[228] Of course.

[229] More desire to get away.

[230] Yeah.

[231] And really would have.

[232] came down to, you know, because as I get old, you know, I reflect upon, you know, things I was thinking, you know, why I took different actions that I took and everything else.

[233] And back at that age, really would have boiled down to because, you know, part of it says, well, you know, as a nine -year -old child or even a 12 -year -old child, which was the second time, how does a child make a decision to run away with actual intent to never come back to leave their, you know, their family behind.

[234] Everybody they know behind.

[235] Their security.

[236] And the entire time gone, just trying to think of ways to get further away.

[237] Never the thought of, oh, shoot, there's no food.

[238] I'm hungry.

[239] Oh, I want to go home.

[240] I want to go home.

[241] You know, like you hear about runways doing, right?

[242] Right.

[243] And no. There's no comfort to run to.

[244] There's no comfort to run to.

[245] So being on your own was more comforting.

[246] By far.

[247] Because that takes a lot of guts, because I'm sure you knew the repercussions would be severe.

[248] Well, that was the weird thing about me as a kid.

[249] You just kept it moving.

[250] I never learned.

[251] You know, so to me, I never even give the repercussions a second thought so much as a first thought.

[252] It was just always the desire to do something else.

[253] Fight or flight.

[254] Yes.

[255] Flight, flight, flight, flight.

[256] And that's really what it boiled back down to as a nine -year -old child was it was just a strong survival instinct.

[257] She struck him with her motor vehicle.

[258] She had been under the influence and she left him there.

[259] In January 2022, local woman Karen Reed was implicated in the mysterious death of her boyfriend, Boston police officer John O 'Keefe.

[260] It was alleged that after an innocent night out for drinks with friends, Karen and John got into a lover's quarrel en route to the next location.

[261] What happens next?

[262] Depends on who you ask.

[263] Was it a crime of passion?

[264] If you believe the prosecution, it's because the evidence was so compelling.

[265] This was clearly an intentional act.

[266] And his cause of death was blunt force trauma with hypothermia.

[267] Or a corrupt police cover -up.

[268] If you believe the defense theory, however, this was all a cover -up to prevent one of their own from going down.

[269] Everyone had an opinion.

[270] And after the 10 -week trial, the jury could not come to a unanimous decision.

[271] To end in a mistrial, it's just a, confirmation of just how complicated this case is.

[272] Law and crime presents the most in -depth analysis to date of the sensational case in Karen.

[273] You can listen to Karen exclusively with Wondry Plus.

[274] Join Wondry Plus in the Wondry app, Apple Podcasts, or Spotify.

[275] Tom and I spoke for a few more hours that first meeting.

[276] He told me about his childhood in the people's temple, the unspeakable abuse he encountered, and his ultimate escape from the jungle.

[277] He had to run to another commitment after a few hours, and as I drove home, I was dumbstruck with the information I was still digesting.

[278] Later on that night, I received a text from Leah letting me know that her dad had enjoyed talking with me and found it refreshing that I wanted to know about his story and his feelings, instead of solely seeking gruesome details and salacious information about the Colts leader Jones.

[279] Tom agreed to let me interview him again.

[280] The week between my first and second interview with Tom, I dove deep into the people's temple history and their timeline of events in order to help myself better understand Tom's own history and experience.

[281] I researched coverage of the temple and found numerous recommendations to read the book, Raven, the untold story of Reverend Jim Jones and his people.

[282] When the large book arrived, I was shocked to see the bokes listed in the first few pages as principal members of the People's Temple, and the author of the book, Tim Riederman, had himself survived Jonestown.

[283] Once I began reading Raven, I realized that Tom and the author Tim would later become important pieces in one another's stories.

[284] You see, reporter Tim Ryderman was one of the first in the San Francisco Bay Area to investigate the People's Temple, over two years prior to the massacre at Jonestown.

[285] Throughout this season, I'll be reading excerpts and sharing information of the Bogues family story with the help of Tim Ryderman's book, Raven, the untold story of Reverend Jim Jones and his people, which will also be linked in the episode notes.

[286] As I dove deeper into reading, it became clear that the complete story of the people's temple and its evil leader Jones was a complex one.

[287] Thankfully, I continued to remind myself that I only needed to focus my true attention on Tom's unique experience in the People's Temple.

[288] The following Sunday, as I made the 45 -minute drive from my own house to Dixon, I texted Leah to ask her or Tom if they wanted anything from Dutch Bros. Coffee.

[289] She let me know they were covered, but that her grandpa, Jim Bog, principal member of the People's Temple for 13 years, had agreed for the first time in 40 years to be interviewed.

[290] by me. I made a strange noise and tried not to let my anxiety get the best of me, though a light anxiety sweat started to form on my forehead almost instantly.

[291] Upon arrival at the Bogue home, I was once again greeted by the barking of Bella and Batman.

[292] Again, I anxiously set up my equipment and tried to seem casual and like I knew what I was doing.

[293] I hugged Grandpa Jim Bogue and was instantly in love with the cardigan.

[294] he was wearing.

[295] I thanked him for allowing me to interview him, and Tom made a joke about how lucky I was.

[296] Oh, by the way, you'll be the first person to ever have a recorded in an interview with him.

[297] Yeah, I'm sweating.

[298] You should be.

[299] Okay.

[300] I asked Grandpa Jim what initially drew him to attend the People's Temple Church.

[301] See, the whole thing started.

[302] I'd lost a son.

[303] And I was searching for answers.

[304] When he came to town and started organizing, well, go check him out.

[305] See, maybe he does know something.

[306] Tom's father, Jim Bogue, had started attending the People's Temple Church in Redwood Valley, California, around 1965, when the group was meeting at the Golden Rural Church in Willits, California.

[307] Quickly, though, the family learned that leaving the people's temple would not be easy as one would imagine.

[308] Jones blackmailed church attendees by having them sign blank pieces of paper, telling them that they were for a reasonable purpose, when in fact they would be later turned into letters confessing falsely to horrible crimes such as molesting their own children.

[309] Here's Tom.

[310] My mother didn't want to leave at the time, so he was going to take the kids and leave.

[311] And then when the church found out about it, they have all kinds of mechanisms in place to keep a person from leaving.

[312] It would be everything from, well, I got on Wednesday night, which was just a prime membership.

[313] Everybody in there had to sign a blank piece of paper, even the children.

[314] And that was for, then they would say things, well, what this is for is so we have to send letters to our political leaders and everything else.

[315] We don't have to wait for you guys to come and sign it, just sign the blank paper.

[316] That way we do these letters and send them out.

[317] Uh -uh.

[318] It turned out that was not the reason.

[319] The reason was that so people wanted to defect, they would fill out these forms, given written testimony to grievous criminal acts that they supposedly committed.

[320] And then what they would do is the person was going to leave, they said, oh yeah?

[321] Well, you know what?

[322] If you leave, we're going to have to turn this in for prosecution.

[323] And then they read it, and they're like, what the hell?

[324] That never happened.

[325] It did now.

[326] You signed it.

[327] That's what happened to my father.

[328] Here's Jim.

[329] Well, I wanted about three times, maybe half a dozen times, and I decided I didn't want any of it.

[330] And the next thing I know, one of the guys came down and they said, you know, you can't leave.

[331] I was, how's that?

[332] Well, we just figured out you molested three of your daughters.

[333] This was after how many visits?

[334] About a half a dozen visits.

[335] And so from then on, I kind of became a good little doggie.

[336] I mean, you just don't beat that.

[337] You know, there's no way you can beat that.

[338] As many cult leaders and abusers do, the Reverend Jones worked to alienate his members from as many of their loved ones as possible, as quickly as possible.

[339] He did this by separating members from their spouses.

[340] After attending the people's temple for some time, Jones began setting.

[341] separating Jim Bogue from his family, especially his wife, Edith.

[342] And what did your wife think, your wife at the time?

[343] Edith.

[344] Edith.

[345] Edith.

[346] They took her in, and she turned against me. They liked to break up families.

[347] That's one of these great things, was to break up families, and then he could control better.

[348] In addition to the letters he created as blackmail, Jones used to, various other tactics to control members' behavior, such as putting them in illegal situations, forcing members to take the blame, then using the incident as blackmail for further control.

[349] Next time.

[350] Something was wrong is written, recorded.

[351] edited and produced by me, Tiffany Reese.

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[353] Okay, you get the point.

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