Marion Jones (Olympic track-and-field athlete)

[0] Welcome, welcome, welcome to Armchair Expert, Experts on Expert.

[1] I'm Dan Shepard, and I'm joined by Miss Lily Padman.

[2] Hi.

[3] What a timely episode this is.

[4] We couldn't have planned it this way.

[5] In fact, I wanted to release this early.

[6] You did?

[7] And I actually tried, but I didn't work out.

[8] And then it ended up really working out.

[9] What timing?

[10] What timing?

[11] Marion Jones.

[12] God, did I love Marion Jones?

[13] Fuck.

[14] Marion Jones, a former world champion, track and field athlete, and former professional basketball player, she is a five -time Olympic medalists formerly deemed the fastest woman on the planet.

[15] As you remember, if you live through all that, she had all of her medals stripped from her.

[16] She now has one of the most inspirational stories of perseverance, and it's incredibly inspiring.

[17] And she's taken all this, and she has driven performance, which is dedicated to helping people activate their potential.

[18] She's used everything she's learning.

[19] She's still working in this world.

[20] And it's a real testament to attitude and perspective.

[21] Oh, my God.

[22] It's one of the most harrowing, crazy stories we've heard.

[23] Yeah.

[24] I love her.

[25] I love Marion Jones.

[26] Please enjoy Marion Jones.

[27] Wondry Plus subscribers can listen to Armchair Expert early and add free right now.

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[30] He's an object spread I like it You're matching Yeah, you guys have similar pant colors And then white He's gonna get you a Carolina blue tongue Same palette Yeah So your wife leaving Getting a mammogram Oh, is that where she was off to That's so funny Your kid came out of the car And they were like My mom's going to get the mammogram Straight out with the full disclosure My mom's got diarrhea We're going to the store to get petro -al -bizmo.

[31] You just have one.

[32] Two.

[33] You met the nine -year -old, I think, in the driveway.

[34] And then we have an 11 -year -old, too, floating around.

[35] Boy or girls?

[36] Both girls.

[37] It's the way to go.

[38] Every time I'm around little boys, I go, thank fucking God.

[39] Well, careful how soon you're saying that, because you're about to hit an age.

[40] I have one who just turned 15 on Friday.

[41] A girl?

[42] It's the fucking worst.

[43] It changes by the minute who she is.

[44] It is hormonal.

[45] I learned that from my oldest, who just turned 21, on, Friday.

[46] Wait, wait, you have two children with the same birthday?

[47] Yeah, the oldest and the youngest.

[48] He turned 21 on Friday and then a 15 on Friday.

[49] No way.

[50] And it just happened like at one.

[51] I'd be so pissed if I was that older sibling.

[52] Well, when they were young, they loved it.

[53] And then in the middle, they hated it.

[54] Now they didn't care.

[55] They say that there are different phases that are easier.

[56] And yes, I've heard teenage gales, but I hate to say it, I think it's mostly directed at you.

[57] The mom.

[58] Yeah, I think the dad gets out kind of scot -free.

[59] Yeah, I think so.

[60] That was my experience as a teenager.

[61] My mom pretty much got all the...

[62] And when I tell you, it is literally by the minute.

[63] I brought her out here.

[64] She and I, a girl trip a few weeks back.

[65] We did Universal.

[66] She was great.

[67] And then the next day...

[68] Good morning, mother.

[69] The devil's here.

[70] My mom just say, you just wait to me. Right, exactly.

[71] Like, you're going to get what you...

[72] You're going to reap what you sow.

[73] I find myself tiptoeing because I don't want drama.

[74] You got to, though.

[75] There's two variables in the equation.

[76] You're one of them.

[77] She's one of them.

[78] And she's 15.

[79] And she's going to win.

[80] Guess what one's got to change?

[81] Like I found myself texting in the chores that she has to do.

[82] Because you don't want to face to face.

[83] I don't want to deal with it.

[84] How old is your oldest?

[85] 21 .03 and 07 .09.

[86] You probably hate this question, but is there a crazy athletic prowess?

[87] I mean, dad was an Olympic sprinter.

[88] You're an Olympic sprinter.

[89] Naturally, they're all physically gifted.

[90] Yeah.

[91] From an early age.

[92] But they all have, like, different competitiveness.

[93] That's a great delineation.

[94] I think of it as like athletic prowess.

[95] But you probably underestimate what part of the genetics is just a competitive nature.

[96] Forget the physiology.

[97] The mindset of it all tips the scale.

[98] There are a lot of people who are extremely physically gifted, but those that really succeed, not even just succeed.

[99] There's a lot of people who do that.

[100] And it's nothing that you're taught.

[101] A lot of it is nurture and nature and who you're exposed growing up, certain coaches and teachers and parents.

[102] but there's nothing that I can put my finger on that said, this is why I was like this and this is why I think like this.

[103] It's just a combination of a whole lot of things.

[104] Like the influence of my mom and her coming to this country.

[105] That type of stuff, nobody can teach.

[106] But then you see which kid, and I fall into this category, the fun in it for me is trying to do it.

[107] That is my fun, right?

[108] And so when you have a person like that, you're like, okay, I need to be very, very strategic in my place.

[109] parenting on what to put them in, what to expose them to.

[110] And then your other kid, other stuff.

[111] Well, let's start with mom because mom is from Belize.

[112] And what age did she come?

[113] She came to L .A. directly?

[114] She first came to New York.

[115] There's a large Belizean contingent that goes there first.

[116] I'm glad you said Belizeon.

[117] I wouldn't have known.

[118] Yeah, I want to hear what you said.

[119] I'm probably would say Belizean.

[120] Yeah.

[121] Actually, me too, probably.

[122] But she went up there.

[123] She's young.

[124] What's young?

[125] 18, 19.

[126] And she got pregnant.

[127] and she went back home to have my older brother.

[128] There's just two of us.

[129] And then for reasons that I don't really know, she's like, I got to go back up to the States.

[130] So she came to L .A. I met my father here and married.

[131] But we can even go back further than that.

[132] And I've shared this story a few times when somebody asks me because I had shared something about what my motivation is to be great, a whole lot of different things.

[133] And one of it is this idea that my family's from Belize, on my mother's side, of course, but my grandfather traveled to Guatemala to work.

[134] He met a psychic on the side of the road.

[135] This is the story.

[136] And the psychic sat him down and said, somebody in your family is going to achieve crazy amount of success.

[137] There are going to be a lot of sacrifices in between.

[138] Of course, he told my mom and my mom has shared that with me. And it's this idea that not wanting to disappoint people in my world that struggle to give me opportunity.

[139] And I still fight that.

[140] And it's one of the reasons why I'm back.

[141] on the scene after purposefully stepping back for a decade away because that's not what my legacy is going to be.

[142] I create my own narrative and it has been created for me for a long time now.

[143] I'm almost 50.

[144] We're the same age, by the way.

[145] Yeah.

[146] 75.

[147] Let's go.

[148] Yeah.

[149] You get to a point where you're like, enough writing it for me. I'm going to write it myself.

[150] You also get to a point where you're like, hey, guess what y 'all?

[151] I like me. I like where I'm at.

[152] I I'm not carrying the shame you think I should be carrying.

[153] And this is it.

[154] To me, that feels like the freedom I'm approaching, which is like, I like me. So, yeah, all this fucked up shit happened to get here.

[155] How people like are like, you are?

[156] Right, right, right, right.

[157] Well, because you've lived many people's worst nightmare.

[158] Living with secrecy is an incredible experience.

[159] Me as an addict, you with your issues.

[160] I love that.

[161] Your stuff.

[162] All your stuff.

[163] I love how you tipped out.

[164] That might not have been the perfect.

[165] word.

[166] Yeah, issues feels like that was canceled.

[167] We're like not allowed to say that anymore.

[168] I strike issues.

[169] I'm going to, let's see, what I pick instead?

[170] Your experience.

[171] I know.

[172] You can curse on here, right?

[173] Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

[174] Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[175] Yeah, you're fucked upness.

[176] Let's go.

[177] But I think, besides just you and I, this whole idea that failure is not forever, and although my story is different than yours, different than yours, or whomever, we have a common bond besides just humanness, everybody gets beat down, breaks down, gets set back.

[178] I mean, doesn't have to be what I went through, what you went through, but everybody at some point gets knocked the hell down.

[179] They get their ass kick.

[180] A debt.

[181] Bankruptcy.

[182] Career stuff, right?

[183] And my hope and people are like, well, Marion, why are you relevant?

[184] I've kind of heard that.

[185] Well, hold on, hold on, hold on.

[186] Have you heard that or is that the shadow talking to you that you're assuming people might think that.

[187] Have you actually heard that?

[188] Through my people, right?

[189] My response is my story is unique in that not everybody can relate to running 10 point something seconds, winning gold medal, going to prison, being a convicted felon, but everybody knows this idea.

[190] Everybody knows the idea of getting knocked down and how do you come back from that.

[191] Yeah, it's a very universal story.

[192] Everybody at some point has made a poor choice.

[193] Everybody has lied.

[194] Well, we were just talking about this yesterday.

[195] We were starting to wonder, do some people...

[196] Is it effortless for them to be good?

[197] Or like perfect.

[198] We interviewed someone and this boy was so fucking sweet.

[199] Not only does he go to church, he loves going to church and he loves dancing and saying, and I'm just going like, is it that easy for you to be good?

[200] I gotta fucking get into some stuff.

[201] Are you battling it like I am?

[202] Or are there people that are like, it's pretty easy to walk the line?

[203] My concern to be people like that, they haven't found the words to share their shit.

[204] But can we maybe make a little space for the notion that, yeah, for some people, it's kind of easy.

[205] They're not really driven by a lot.

[206] I think it's a spectrum.

[207] I think we sort of decided it was a spectrum.

[208] That's what we concluded to bring up a speed.

[209] Of effortlessness.

[210] Like, I get a terrible idea once an hour.

[211] I don't know where you're at.

[212] But like, I think it's something that's not good for me to do once an hour.

[213] I think a lot of people, maybe not once an hour, friend.

[214] He's pretty hot on the spectrum of my sense.

[215] Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[216] But I also think.

[217] A lot of it is highly predictable by your childhood.

[218] Like if you grew up in a lot of trauma, a lot of action, a lot of fucking chaos, a lot of arousal, a lot of adrenaline.

[219] Guess what?

[220] I want to get into some shit.

[221] I get bored, easy.

[222] So I think that tracks a bit.

[223] Yeah.

[224] Like, I'm kind of drawn to like, oh, what's going on over there?

[225] Someone's getting their ass kick.

[226] I got to see this up.

[227] But, you know, I need to see the shit.

[228] Can you relate to that?

[229] I don't know.

[230] Where are you on that spectrum?

[231] Not as far as you.

[232] Yeah, let's say I'm a 10.

[233] I mean, seven -ish.

[234] Yeah, there we go.

[235] I think it's probably pretty typical.

[236] But I think that earlier in your life that you can talk it through, like share it with people in your world who can say, you know what?

[237] You're on a 10.

[238] We probably should get you some help.

[239] Or like, let's get you down to maybe.

[240] Or find outlets for you.

[241] And again, I have done that, right?

[242] I've been sober for a long, long time.

[243] And I go to A &A.

[244] And I go to therapy.

[245] But I'm just saying hourly, I got to walk past these thoughts.

[246] Yeah.

[247] Where in L .A. were you born specifically?

[248] I grew up in Sherman Oaks, Wood.

[249] Avenue was my spot.

[250] Uh -huh.

[251] I went to a private school called Pinecrest Prep.

[252] They've torn it down.

[253] It's right down the street from Notre Dame High.

[254] Your mom and dad got divorced very early.

[255] Then Ira shows up.

[256] It was just my brother and I and my mom.

[257] My mom was really concerned about raising a young man of color in this country by herself.

[258] Yeah, yeah.

[259] She made the decision to send him back to Belize where my uncle was.

[260] So it was just my mom and I for a long time, which had its own challenges.

[261] I, for a time, was really hurt that my parents made the choice to divorce.

[262] It was hard for me. And so I found, at an early age, my outlet, which is physical stuff.

[263] I was faster and stronger and motivated, from four, five, six years old.

[264] And then my mom met Ira, an older gentleman.

[265] Retired, right, from the post office?

[266] Yeah, military.

[267] It spent many years, he's Navy.

[268] We moved out to Palmdale.

[269] Palmdale now is different than Palmdale then.

[270] Then it was a real suburb of L .A. People were getting out of L .A. And they were finding land for cheaper and building.

[271] And it was like a thriving community.

[272] But I had a wonderful childhood there.

[273] What ages were you in Palmdale?

[274] From five until I were past.

[275] 87.

[276] Okay.

[277] So I was 12.

[278] That's when we moved from Palmdale back to Sherman Oaks.

[279] Could have been a blessing, though, because you got to go to this school.

[280] That would have been a hell of a commute.

[281] Yeah, well, my mom was commuting.

[282] We were living in Palmdale and she was working in Beverly Hills.

[283] So she was going back and forth, which was great because Ira was retired and he was taking care of me. You guys were close.

[284] Yeah, very close.

[285] When he passed, I was been in shock because my biological dad chose not to be in the picture.

[286] The part of your story that to me feels a little under explored is just the role of malness.

[287] Dad's not there.

[288] I was there for a minute where we can rely on him.

[289] He's gone.

[290] Your brother you adore and you do whatever he does.

[291] He's back and forth to Belize.

[292] You meet a dude in college.

[293] I feel like that part of your story is very interesting to me and I wonder how much of it you think about and how that all may have put you on certain paths.

[294] I've explored it a lot more in therapy than anything else, right?

[295] Because I feel as if I would have been a daddy's girl, the connection that Ira and I had.

[296] Because it was just him and I, like my mom, traveled 90 minutes to work to Beverly Hills from Palmdale and back every evening.

[297] So he was the caretaker, he was the cook, got me in bed, got me ready.

[298] And we just talked about like our teenage daughters and that dynamic with just my mom and I going through all of that.

[299] So it was just tough.

[300] A mom has a really strong personality.

[301] You're going through puberty.

[302] You just lost the one male figure in your life.

[303] This has been pretty consistent and loving and supportive.

[304] This is a very disruptive junior high.

[305] It's already too much going on.

[306] And then you have a biological father who's very capable of being present in your life and chooses not to.

[307] And it's an asshole.

[308] And I don't get it.

[309] And then I'm just mad with my mother just because I make teenage girl dealing with all that.

[310] Really quick.

[311] In your 12 -year -old mind, it would not have been hard to blame mom for a lot of this stuff.

[312] Dad's gone.

[313] I don't know.

[314] Is that because of you?

[315] Now, Ira's gone.

[316] And my brothers in belief, like, it would have been pretty easy to mount a case.

[317] But I don't think that that was my reality at all.

[318] I was just a shitty little teenage.

[319] Well, you were struggling and you were taking it out on your mom.

[320] You were hurting.

[321] Yeah, it was bad.

[322] But I'm just so grateful to have Ira, even for the short amount of time in my role, because he was a lover of sport.

[323] We had season tickets to Dodger games.

[324] Mariano Duncan was my favorite player.

[325] Are y 'all Dodgers fan?

[326] Detroit.

[327] Detroit.

[328] Mariano means Mary in Spanish and he was athletic and he is cute.

[329] Then he loved basketball.

[330] In 1984, I was nine.

[331] Of course, that's when the Olympics came here.

[332] That was my first exposure to it all.

[333] And by that point, I had started competing.

[334] Loved it.

[335] My brother, him and Ira instill this love of competition.

[336] And when your brother, your sibling, who's five years older than you, starts, like, you're going to be on my team.

[337] The dream.

[338] My brother's five years older, too.

[339] No matter what he said, if he included me, I would have jumped off the fucking skyscraper.

[340] All of his friends are his age, and he's picking his little sister.

[341] He's doing it, which means that he and his mind knows this is how I'm going to win.

[342] Right.

[343] She brings something to the table here.

[344] Signing up for track and soccer and realizing, I'm really good.

[345] And I love it.

[346] You recognize that.

[347] Yeah.

[348] From our little, we call this game Pickled.

[349] You all know what that game is?

[350] It's like just staying away from the ball, forward and backwards, forward and backwards, and doing stuff on our streets.

[351] and my mom's saying, hey, you know, there's a local track meet, there's soccer, there's gymnastics, sign me up, sign me up, sign me up.

[352] You're blasting boys your age too, right?

[353] But it's not a thing.

[354] It was just like, you're winning, right?

[355] I was with my brother and his friend.

[356] There were no girls out there.

[357] And that's just the norm.

[358] So it's a thing now when people ask about it, but it wasn't a thing.

[359] The friends got it, my brother got it, I got it.

[360] That's how it was.

[361] And so when I was in track meets and they're putting you with girls, I'm like, all right.

[362] Like, if this is the category that you're putting me in, I'm going to crush.

[363] It's the norm.

[364] And I remember my first competition.

[365] A lot of times in the rounds, you get to the finals based off of your time, not off of your place.

[366] And I remember running in my first 400.

[367] I was wearing these shoes called Ruz, O -O -O -S.

[368] And they had zipper on the side.

[369] And my mom had bought it for me because I was also in Girl Scouts.

[370] And I needed to put my Girl Scout money in the side.

[371] It was like 50 cents.

[372] And I knew if I put it in my pocket, I'd lose it.

[373] Anyway, so I had these ruse, and I ran in them.

[374] All the kids are waiting to see who got medals.

[375] And I won my heat.

[376] And I knew I won it a lot.

[377] And I was just waiting for my first place ribbon.

[378] And I think I got third.

[379] And I was just like, what?

[380] I walked up in the stands to Ira and to my mom, and I'm in tears.

[381] And I grabbed my hand, walked me down there, had the guy explain what happened.

[382] And never again did I just coast.

[383] Right.

[384] Because I was ahead.

[385] I was winning, so I just assumed.

[386] You, Usain, bolted it.

[387] You just kind of, the last few steps took it all in.

[388] Mary Jones did.

[389] Right.

[390] I don't know who this other guy is.

[391] He was pretty famous for looking over his shoulder the last 10 yards.

[392] I'll just say.

[393] In 1984, we didn't have the resources to go to the actual games.

[394] But back then, they used to parade the athletes through the streets prior to it.

[395] So I got to see the Carl Lewis.

[396] and the Jackies, and then that summer sat in front of the TV and watched it and knew that that's what I needed to do.

[397] The Olympics generally is so foreign to all of us.

[398] It's always on the other side of the planet, and it seems so untouchable.

[399] And for it to be in your city and on TV is kind of a unique thing.

[400] I agree.

[401] It makes it reality.

[402] Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[403] It's not just like a dream.

[404] These are real humans, and they're in my city.

[405] Now they're on TV and now they're placing a gold medal around their neck.

[406] And now they're hearing the national anthem, sign me up.

[407] What do I need to do?

[408] For me and academics growing up, it was just a means to be able to participate in sport.

[409] My mom was like, if you don't do what you're supposed to do in the classroom, you're not going to play.

[410] What's the bar mom?

[411] Do I get a C?

[412] Do I get a B?

[413] Do I have to get an A?

[414] Whatever it was.

[415] So that summer she got me a chalkboard.

[416] I was supposed to put my reading assignments for this summer.

[417] And I wrote on the top that I was going to be an Olympic champion after the games.

[418] And nine.

[419] Wow.

[420] And was it going to always be track and field?

[421] Because you obviously became an incredible basketball player at UNC.

[422] Do you guys win a championship?

[423] Yeah, my freshman year.

[424] As a basketball player.

[425] So that was just more stuff to do, but was the singular focus track and field?

[426] In 1984, girls basketball, wins basketball, wasn't a thing.

[427] There were grates of the sport.

[428] I don't want to downplay the Cheryl Millers who were competing, but they would have to go overseas.

[429] It wasn't on TV.

[430] So when I saw greatness, I thought, okay, this is going to be.

[431] be my sport.

[432] I'm fast.

[433] I just wrote an Olympic champion.

[434] I didn't say track and feel.

[435] I don't really care what it was.

[436] I wanted that feeling of euphoria that I saw Jackie Joyner Cursey and Carl Lewis that one step past the line when something comes over them.

[437] They're focused for 100 meters, 200 meters.

[438] And the minute they crossed that line, they're like a 10 year old kid.

[439] I wanted that.

[440] I wanted that too.

[441] And I think Monica did too.

[442] But we were watching going like, yeah, I mean, we want that in the same way we want to walk on the moon.

[443] It's never.

[444] Well, I wanted it.

[445] it for gymnastics.

[446] And then I was doing couch beam where you like do beam on the end of the couch.

[447] And then my mom was like, oh, I guess we put you in gymnastics.

[448] And I was like, I think this is it for me. I am going to end up there.

[449] And then like two weeks in, the coach teacher was like, you would be so good if you weren't so old.

[450] I was like eight.

[451] She was like you would have had a lot of potential, but I thought you were going to say she said you would be so good at equipment management.

[452] No, although I would, and I would take that with crime.

[453] I also have a funny gymnastics story, because there were three sports growing up that I adored.

[454] It was track, it was soccer, and it was gymnastics.

[455] Yeah.

[456] I was too tall for gymnastics, even at that point.

[457] And I'll tell you.

[458] I remember a beam routine that I was doing, and it changed the trajectory of my gymnastics future.

[459] Did you fall on your vagina?

[460] I did.

[461] Yep, yep, a straddle.

[462] I've done it.

[463] Oh, it's called a straddle?

[464] Well, like, you straddle the beat with the fall.

[465] It's not good.

[466] Never, ever want to experience that again.

[467] I'm inclined to tell Marian our Armsher Anonymous story.

[468] Oh, I thought you meant Catch him by the Pussy.

[469] Oh, she became a national champ cheerleader.

[470] She was a high flyer.

[471] Or is that the one that they throw you up?

[472] Yeah.

[473] And I said at one point, do they ever accidentally catch you by the pussy?

[474] And she said, nonstop, you're constantly getting caught by the pussy.

[475] So maybe Trump was just like a gym.

[476] Maybe he thought of himself.

[477] A cheerleader in another life.

[478] Maybe it's not as bad as we thought.

[479] He was asking a cheerleading question.

[480] Maybe he said, catch him by the pussy.

[481] Not grab.

[482] Maybe it was like we misunderstood.

[483] Oh, yeah, but we interviewed this woman who fell in a movie theater.

[484] Oh, my God.

[485] It was almost unlistenable, this thing.

[486] Wait, what?

[487] She fell in movie theater and somehow.

[488] There was an edge or something, and she, like, dropped a couple feet.

[489] She was watching a movie or she was in her seat?

[490] And it had already been.

[491] begun it was dark one leg like fell off the edge and so she slammed her vagina vulva on the corner of a step basically that's a long drop it ruined her whole vagina major medical damage yeah yeah yeah yeah yeah yeah permanent permanent vagina damage it was it was a he has the ultimate story in every cocktail party oh yeah yeah yeah yeah yeah nobody will ever up that story oh my god the only problem with that story.

[492] When you tell someone, I've had a bone transplant out of my hip, or I got a bunch of metal on my shoulder.

[493] You tell the story and they go like, let me see it.

[494] So weirdly, you've got this story and then like, it would be very inappropriate.

[495] Can I see?

[496] Can I see your scar?

[497] What are we talking about?

[498] Anyways, we've taken you down way too far of a path.

[499] But you had a vagina ending, career ending.

[500] Gymastic.

[501] Yes, yeah, yes.

[502] Twofold.

[503] Okay, so you're great in high school.

[504] Do you go to UNC on like a full ride?

[505] Yeah.

[506] Well, by that point, you know, at 15, I made my first Olympic team.

[507] Oh, you did?

[508] When you were 15.

[509] I didn't know that.

[510] By that point, I was just crushing the competition.

[511] Made my first Olympic team opted not to go.

[512] Simply because I wanted my first Olympic experience to be one that.

[513] So when you're in the relay pool, and this is appropriate because I don't know if you all watched any of the track and field trials because the Olympics are coming up.

[514] Yeah, this is very timely.

[515] So they have all these trials right now with the different sports on these people needing to make the team.

[516] If you make the team in the sprints, the top six in the finals, get to go to the Olympics and be part of a relay pool.

[517] The relay pool is a group of people that the coaches can choose from who they want to put on the track for the prelims, for the semis, and for the finals.

[518] They could choose anybody they want.

[519] Are those different than alternates or is that similar?

[520] They don't use alternates that much in the sport.

[521] In the individual events, there will be.

[522] an alternate that goes if you're not top three.

[523] Maybe they'll take a fourth if a third gets hurt or something.

[524] But with the relay pool, I didn't feel as a 15 year old that if and when the relay team won gold, I would have gotten the gold even if I didn't compete.

[525] I had so much confidence that I knew that when my time came, that I was going to win.

[526] When there was another opportunity in four years, I was going to be there and I was going to win.

[527] That was at 1992.

[528] Can you imagine Monica at 15 knowing you're going to win, knowing you're the best.

[529] Like, at 15, I'm still like, I'm hoping I'm funny enough to do this.

[530] But it's almost the perfect age because you don't know enough yet to have doubt.

[531] You're young enough to feel, yeah, I'm the best and I'm definitely going to make it to the next Olympics.

[532] Because, like, an older person would say, I mean, I probably make it to the next Olympics, but things could happen.

[533] I could get hurt.

[534] 15 -year -olds aren't thinking like that.

[535] You're feeling invulnerable and bulletproof.

[536] Even at another level for me, just because not even 15 at 9, at 10, at 11, and 12, I was unstoppable in my drive to be great.

[537] My mom talks about it all the time.

[538] Like, she needed to put me in an environment where I would grow and just be poured into.

[539] So the coaches, even at an early age, were like hand -chosen.

[540] my mom.

[541] I was on clubs, but even the track club.

[542] Like, it was hand chosen to make sure that the people, the coaches, the other athletes, these were people that had a similar mindset.

[543] And was the prerequisite that they were going to challenge you endlessly?

[544] That I was going to be protected from overrunning, be taught how to do it correctly.

[545] I was never the type who needed motivation.

[546] I was the one at the door.

[547] If I need to be at practice, like waiting.

[548] I was not going out the night before, like I wasn't doing anything from nine until now.

[549] That's just how I function.

[550] I need to be there on time.

[551] I need to get there to warm up.

[552] I don't care if nobody else is there.

[553] Like, I'm not distracted by 15, 16 year olds.

[554] How about boys in high school?

[555] No. And is that because you were so focused or are you incredibly intimidating for young boys at that age?

[556] Well, how do you explain that?

[557] I was incredibly focused.

[558] I didn't know then, but my interest was not in boy.

[559] Okay, okay.

[560] So you like girls, but there was nothing you can do about that.

[561] It wasn't a thing.

[562] Then for me, especially in my culture, even now, there are certain circles.

[563] You still have to tiptoe in regards to who you love and who you are.

[564] And it wasn't a thing.

[565] It certainly wasn't a thing in my household.

[566] And you were so busy, there was no reason to think about it.

[567] I was with friends who liked boys, and I would go along with it.

[568] But I'm like, they're just like, they look like they're trouble.

[569] We're kind of the worst.

[570] I mean, just call it what it is.

[571] You heard him earlier about his scale.

[572] Yeah, yeah, we're a plague on this planet.

[573] But we build good bridges and shit.

[574] Yeah.

[575] You need his occasional.

[576] I was just going to like, no pun intended.

[577] I was gold -driven.

[578] Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

[579] And then graduated.

[580] I went to Rio Mesa High School, which is an Oxnard.

[581] I was there for two years.

[582] Transfer to Thousand Oaks.

[583] Because at that point, I was really diving into the world of basketball and starting to really love it.

[584] My mom got season tickets to the Lakers.

[585] season tickets to the clippers because back then they were a little cheaper to get those tickets.

[586] Not a little.

[587] Considably jewelry.

[588] And that's when they were at the sports arena, which was awesome because there used to be a big indoor competition there called SunKiss Indoor Invite, where the best runners from around the road would come there and compete.

[589] Anyways, I really have roots in this area, so it's nice.

[590] Yeah, seeing Lakers game at the forum, the shitty little band playing at top, I loved that.

[591] And, you know, I've been to games wherever they play now.

[592] It was Staples now.

[593] It's called something else.

[594] Those seats suck.

[595] They suck when you're anybody over five, five.

[596] I don't know how tall.

[597] I'm five feet, so it's going to be great for me. Yeah, it's great.

[598] Yeah, exactly.

[599] But just starting to fall in love with that sport.

[600] The timing was perfect because by that point, my popularity in the sport of track was big.

[601] I was young.

[602] I was athletic.

[603] I was making Olympic teams at 15.

[604] I could go anywhere in the country, really, in regards to college.

[605] that I wanted to, but I also knew I didn't want to get run into the ground, especially in California, which is one of the strongest states for the sport.

[606] It's there.

[607] It's Florida.

[608] It's Georgia, Texas.

[609] Once they find a track phenom, they will run you into the ground.

[610] They will put you in every event, and you will get burnt out by the time you graduate from college.

[611] I have lots of people that I grew up with that potentially could have been so awesome in the sport, but they were doing it from the age of seven and eight.

[612] And I mean, that's a long time.

[613] And I didn't want that.

[614] Crazy you had that foresight.

[615] My mom.

[616] Your mom did.

[617] Yeah.

[618] There's something special about my daughter.

[619] And if she wants to do another sport, it will only benefit her in the long run.

[620] She's so brilliant.

[621] So why did you get drawn to UNC?

[622] Michael Jordan.

[623] Best basketball team.

[624] That's.

[625] And USC is here.

[626] Stanford's here.

[627] UCLA.

[628] I grew up going to all kind of events, camps, everything at these schools.

[629] But I didn't feel that I could.

[630] make my mark in the sport of basketball here in California because I was already known for track.

[631] I really like to do things my own way.

[632] I decided that I wanted to go.

[633] And it wasn't even just because of Michael Jordan.

[634] It's because the women's program there had yet to put their foot on the map.

[635] And so I knew it was hard for them not to have me run track.

[636] I mean, that was going to be silly.

[637] But they were going to give me a basketball scholarship.

[638] And I knew that I can make myself well known in that sport.

[639] Also, I wanted to be a journalism major.

[640] One of the best journalism programs in the country.

[641] So I decided to make that jump.

[642] Stay tuned for more armchair expert, if you dare.

[643] What's up, guys?

[644] It's your girl Kiki, and my podcast is back with a new season.

[645] And let me tell you, it's too good.

[646] And I'm diving into the brains of entertainment's best and brightest.

[647] Okay, every episode I bring on a friend and have a real conversation.

[648] conversation.

[649] And I don't mean just friends.

[650] I mean the likes of Amy Poehler, Kell Mitchell, Vivica Fox, the list goes on.

[651] So follow, watch, and listen to Baby.

[652] This is Kiki Palmer on the Wondery app, or wherever you get your podcast.

[653] We've all been there.

[654] Turning to the internet to self -diagnose our inexplicable pains, debilitating body aches, sudden fevers, and strange rashes.

[655] Though our minds tend to spiral to worst -case scenarios, it's usually nothing.

[656] But for an unlucky few, these unsuspecting symptoms can start the clock ticking on a terrifying medical mystery.

[657] Like the unexplainable death of a retired firefighter, whose body was found at home by his son, except it looked like he had been cremated, or the time when an entire town started jumping from buildings and seeing tigers on their ceilings.

[658] Hey listeners, it's Mr. Ballin here, and I'm here to tell you about my podcast.

[659] It's called Mr. Ballin's Medical Mysteries.

[660] Each terrifying true story will be sure to keep you up at night.

[661] Follow Mr. Ballin's Medical Mysteries wherever you get your podcasts.

[662] Prime members can listen early and ad -free on Amazon Music.

[663] Okay, so how soon at UNC before you meet CJ?

[664] A few years.

[665] So my freshman year, we won the title.

[666] I was a freshman point guard there.

[667] Did you play a lot?

[668] Oh, I was a starter.

[669] God damn.

[670] How did that feel?

[671] I was on the court.

[672] How does that feel compared to a track victory?

[673] Because what's interesting is, I think there's pros and cons to all these things.

[674] When you're doing an individual sport, it's you.

[675] And you get to own all that.

[676] But then in defeat, it's just you.

[677] And a team's kind of nice that you can share that.

[678] It's also nice to share victory, but it's all different, right?

[679] I was satisfied in both areas.

[680] Track for me, it was easier.

[681] I was succeeded in the sport of basketball earlier on in my career just because I was so physically gifted.

[682] I was faster.

[683] I was stronger.

[684] I was more mature physically.

[685] But the challenge of it, and I love challenges, was that.

[686] skill -wise, like I had to work on stuff.

[687] Like, I had to work on my ball handling and my shot and the flow of everything.

[688] And you got to run the offense, your point guard.

[689] Correct.

[690] And so when I got to Carolina, because I was 510, 5 -11, 6 feet in my media guide.

[691] In high school, that's usually the tallest girl on the team.

[692] I was fortunate enough at my second high school, Thousand Oaks.

[693] I had a coach who was very progressive thinking in that just because I was 5 -11 on my high team.

[694] If I go D1 in college women's basketball, I was probably going to be the shortest so that I would need to develop my ball handling skills.

[695] Yeah, that was very, again, advanced thinking.

[696] All my mom, making the decision to have me change schools, put me with a coach that would be able to develop me. She's like seeing this.

[697] Wow.

[698] She's like orchestrating this.

[699] Can we back up for half a second?

[700] Your biological dad, was he an athlete?

[701] Yeah, I don't know.

[702] Was mom an athlete?

[703] If mom had been given opportunity, she would have been incredible, but I'd note very little about the dad's side when my biological father passed away in 2001 and I came back here for the funeral.

[704] I met family members that I had never met who were sitting behind me in the pew, sitting behind me in the pew, like asking for my autograph.

[705] Oh, wow.

[706] That's a whole other shit show.

[707] So I got to Carolina, sat down with the head coach.

[708] She's old school in her coaching, Coach Hatchel.

[709] Perfect name for a nose bullshit coach, Hatchel.

[710] It's almost Hatchel.

[711] Sylvia Hatchel.

[712] She's now Hall of Fame coach, but she said, you're going to be my point guard.

[713] And I'm like, have you seen my ball?

[714] Healy Moore, who was the UCLA women's basketball coach here for many years.

[715] She would come out to my high school to recruit me. She told Coach Hatchel this.

[716] When Coach Hatchel was recruiting, she said, Marian Jones, as you know, she's fast.

[717] You know, the only problem is she's here, but the ball sometimes is back there.

[718] And Coach Hatchel said, we know.

[719] need you as our point guard, but we need you to come in here and get in extra work.

[720] So I decided to take a basketball scholarship.

[721] And my love of the sport just blossomed.

[722] And our record was not great in the years prior.

[723] And then my freshman year, we were 33 and two.

[724] We won the national championship.

[725] Last second shot, Charlotte Smith hit the game winner.

[726] North Carolina is a dynasty for college sports.

[727] But to this day, the women's basketball team has not won a national title.

[728] Really?

[729] Since then.

[730] Since then.

[731] So it was just a special group.

[732] Ladies.

[733] Forgive my stereotyping, but are you not meeting now other women on this team that might also like women?

[734] Still, I don't understand.

[735] This is 1993, 1994.

[736] There's still a stigma in women's sports.

[737] I can remember my college coach.

[738] They would never do it now, but almost requiring the players on the team to go to her church.

[739] Sure.

[740] And there was one on every corner.

[741] Yep.

[742] Having relationships in college, but again, there's this stigma and it's quiet, and it's easier to just ignore that part of it and go with what is accepted.

[743] So when you meet CJ, he's a coach on the track team.

[744] He's a shot putter.

[745] How does that evolve if you're not interested in dudes per se?

[746] I was showered with attention, and he's a bit of a rebel.

[747] I had broken my foot, my sophomore year in college and I couldn't do any sport.

[748] It was the first time that I ever did not have a physical outlet.

[749] And you weren't getting fulfilled by that.

[750] And that was all that I was.

[751] How did you break your foot?

[752] First time was playing basketball.

[753] Then the second time I was training for track and Brie broke it and bent the pin and all that.

[754] So I had a red shirt.

[755] So technically I only competed three years in college.

[756] And Coach Hatchell, when I made the decision to go ahead and graduate, she's like, You sure you don't want to go to grad school?

[757] I was ready, though, at that point to start my track career.

[758] But it's all during the same time.

[759] I bring that up because I didn't have any true identity without sport.

[760] And it was horrible.

[761] I cut all my hair off.

[762] I mean, I was just dealing with a lot.

[763] My relationship with my mom was strained because I went to Carolina at 17 years old.

[764] I was a young freshman.

[765] Turned 18 there.

[766] I was doing my own thing.

[767] Distancing myself from people in my role that I like to say now would give it to me straight.

[768] Also, mom was very managerial at that point.

[769] She had really made all these great decisions.

[770] Right.

[771] But then you get to college and she would say, that's not right.

[772] Growing up, I was always little Marion.

[773] My mom was also Marion, so she was Big Marion.

[774] And you don't want to hear it.

[775] Yeah.

[776] And now I'm in college and I really don't want to hear it.

[777] I'm an adult.

[778] Yeah.

[779] I'm Big Marion.

[780] Yeah.

[781] I'm Big Marion.

[782] Bitch, I'm fucking four inches taller than you.

[783] I'm Big Marion.

[784] So, yeah, met him.

[785] I couldn't play basketball.

[786] I couldn't run track.

[787] frustrated with everything.

[788] Your world's been taken from me. This is the second time, kind of, and we probably didn't deal with it the first time.

[789] And started to get attention.

[790] And from someone in sports, then you're still connected to it, even though you're not active in it.

[791] Oh, man. To be that age again, never.

[792] I would never want to me. People ask, like, what age would you like to go back to?

[793] I would love to go back to my 7, 8, 9, 10 -year -old self.

[794] There is a time from 14 to 20, eight.

[795] I'm like, can we just erase that time?

[796] On the other hand, I needed to go through certain things because I am where I'm at now and I love it.

[797] Okay.

[798] I don't know if I've figured this out from all the stuff I've read about you, but when's the first dicey thing happen?

[799] Is it in college?

[800] Because I guess one of my curiosity is it would be, well, A, the male component, which we're talking about, and I find very interesting, but also you're so clearly dominant.

[801] So I'm curious at what point any kind of augmentation or enhancement seems even necessary.

[802] During that time when even just to start the relationship with him, which was taboo.

[803] He had to resign as a coach, right, to date you.

[804] And this whole idea of like, all right, well, I'm a rebel.

[805] Exactly.

[806] Like, we're doing this crazy thing.

[807] Follow my heart or whatever that was.

[808] Also, talk about a love bomb.

[809] Like, this guy conceivably gives up his position and his career to be with you.

[810] That seems like a very big offering.

[811] Yes.

[812] But now an almost 50 -year -old woman looking back, making the choice after I decided to graduate in 1997, wanting to dedicate my world to realizing my dream of being the fastest woman in the world and realizing my dream of becoming of an Olympian, diving straight from college life to training.

[813] And I hadn't.

[814] My focus in college really was basketball with a little sprinkle of track because I was under a basketball scholarship.

[815] So they got all of my time.

[816] Because we were such a successful basketball program, we went always into March Madness.

[817] So I wouldn't start college track until mid to end of March.

[818] So I never got a chance to do anything really in the sport of track and field while I was in college.

[819] Oh, wow.

[820] But were you winning when you were competing?

[821] Well, it was so limited.

[822] Very few people, especially now, are a dual sport athlete.

[823] Yeah.

[824] It's almost unheard of now.

[825] Maybe there's a football player who will run track.

[826] There's one.

[827] But not even those that are super successful.

[828] Not at that level.

[829] No. So I wouldn't start track until late into the season.

[830] There were injuries.

[831] There was frustration.

[832] I had put on some weight because it's a different type of training.

[833] Yeah, yeah.

[834] Basketball.

[835] And so when I decided to be done with basketball, I had graduated.

[836] I wanted to be done in four years.

[837] I was done with school.

[838] It was a means to an end.

[839] Like I wanted my degree.

[840] And instead of journalism, I moved over to communications just because it was easier.

[841] And I just wanted to get back on the scene of the track and field world.

[842] It helped that he was in.

[843] And then I started training and success came my way, like, really fast.

[844] U .S. nationals, that was in, what, 97, and I was national champion.

[845] Wow.

[846] There was no time to catch my breath.

[847] And with that, everything started coming my way.

[848] This was in 1997, three years prior to the games.

[849] Right.

[850] So when the 96 Olympics happened.

[851] I was injured.

[852] I had broken my foot.

[853] So potentially, I had hoped that would be my first real games because I've made the team in 92.

[854] and then 96 was going to be my coming out party.

[855] No wonder you were depressed.

[856] Like you missed that, you're injured, you fucked up your hair.

[857] No, I'm cutting.

[858] It was actually a nice too.

[859] I was going through it.

[860] And I looked back at pictures.

[861] I was like, I was really going through.

[862] Yeah.

[863] We immediately think of Britney Spears shaving her head.

[864] Yeah, it's kind of like one of the signals before.

[865] Some real shit hits the fan.

[866] Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[867] Okay, but really quick, how quickly do you?

[868] You know CJ is on gear.

[869] I don't.

[870] I am in the midst of training.

[871] He trains hard.

[872] He's successful.

[873] It's all part of it.

[874] But when I say success came my way really quickly, I graduated from college.

[875] I signed big endorsement deals with Nike and...

[876] Immediately.

[877] Like, everything.

[878] Lots of money traveling all over the world, making big money in competitions.

[879] And you're 22, three...

[880] Right.

[881] Yeah.

[882] And during that time, there was just...

[883] just starting to be a lot of talk in the news about tainted supplements.

[884] Athletes were going into the GNCs and because what they were taking was not being researched and dissected.

[885] There were all kind of like stuff that just happens to be in it.

[886] Back then like a Fedron was in a lot of over the counter stuff.

[887] Yeah, there was a lot of shit.

[888] GHB was on sale there.

[889] I remember us knowing the things that I was deficient in and doing the GNC runs during that time.

[890] That was just it.

[891] But because then I was at another level in the sport, I needed to be like super cautious of that.

[892] And so that's when after I graduated, I hired a specialized coach.

[893] And the team of people, we determined that I couldn't just do the GNC anymore.

[894] We were risking too much.

[895] So we sought out company.

[896] There were a number of them during that time that made supplements.

[897] We were more confident that anything I was taking, we didn't have anything to worry about.

[898] And that's kind of how it all starts.

[899] Also, I want to go into this conversation with you knowing where I stand on it.

[900] I'm in no judgment.

[901] I'm more deep interest of it.

[902] And I want to point out that, yeah, there's some kind of arbitrary lines in the sand with all this stuff.

[903] Can you take this supplement?

[904] Yeah, absolutely.

[905] And does it increase rub blood cells?

[906] Yes, it does.

[907] You know, there's just a million things along this spectrum of supplements and enhancements.

[908] And we draw a line somewhere, right?

[909] Even how they're testing for testosterone, it's like, we've kind of established a range that we think humans are capable of.

[910] And if you're outside of that, now I know a fucking guy.

[911] There's a 45 -year -old dude.

[912] His testosterone is 1 ,400.

[913] I don't understand.

[914] I'm on testosterone, and mine's 900.

[915] So a lot of it is really kind of just interesting.

[916] And I definitely understand where it's like, even if, let's just say, I knew testosterone was banned.

[917] me taking it exogenically.

[918] But I know the range is between 700 and 1100, and I'm going, well, yeah, but someone naturally has 1100.

[919] Mine's naturally 700.

[920] I'm going to take it and just get in the range.

[921] So I think it's a little more cloudy than people want to acknowledge.

[922] I agree.

[923] And specifically with me, 22 -year -old woman who, you just tell me, I just want to run fast.

[924] The mindset is there.

[925] You just tell me how to train what I'm deficient in so that I can just be okay.

[926] I surround myself with people.

[927] I hire people in my corner.

[928] who will check all those boxes.

[929] I'm also not naive enough.

[930] There's so many critics or people that think they know it all.

[931] You must have known X, Y, and Z. No, I'm 22 years old.

[932] I'm getting paid a lot of money.

[933] I assemble a team of people.

[934] Quote, professionals.

[935] Right.

[936] I have a manager.

[937] And you know your competitors have a team.

[938] So you probably have some assumption that whatever they're doing, I'm now doing.

[939] Well, you just give it up.

[940] I no longer know because I hired someone to know and they're just taking care of it.

[941] Right?

[942] So I'm just like, this is good.

[943] They know my stance.

[944] The whole point of this, and we'll get into this part of it, people are like, oh, she's a cheater.

[945] Well, if you do the research and you know that from the age of 12 to 15, making my first Olympic team.

[946] Yeah, it retroactively erases everything.

[947] It's very punitive and it's a very strong position.

[948] Yeah.

[949] We can just go back to specifically when poor decisions started to happen.

[950] Yeah, because there's got to be the moment.

[951] where you're like, huh, I'm not sure about this.

[952] No, really, during that time, they knew my stance on everything.

[953] You were like, I don't want to be pissing hot in the Olympics.

[954] Correct.

[955] That is why I hire this company to make sure.

[956] And so when I'm taking stuff, I am confident that whatever I'm taking is what I need.

[957] I've had my blood work done, like all that.

[958] We all have deficiencies.

[959] And even more so, if you're an athlete, you have to bring all your levels to a certain space.

[960] And people asked during that time with my lead -up to the Olympic Games in Sydney.

[961] Like, did you feel a difference in your training and in your performance?

[962] And my answer is, well, hell, yeah, because I train hard.

[963] And I'm bringing people in to train with me who are elite.

[964] And I'm getting faster.

[965] And I'm getting stronger.

[966] So do I feel a change?

[967] Yeah.

[968] Do I attribute that to anything that I'm taking?

[969] No. Well, we've already established you've had this mindset since 15.

[970] Like, yeah, you think you're a champion.

[971] Yeah.

[972] So you're not shocked when you're proving to be a champion.

[973] And it's not an overnight decision that I was going to attempt to win five medals.

[974] This was in 1997, three years prior to the games, where I had already set goals.

[975] And I remember in a press conference in Sweden, and some reporter asked me, so what are your goals?

[976] Do you want to make the Olympic team?

[977] And I'm sitting there as like a 21 -year -old, like, yeah, and I'm going to win five goal medals.

[978] Yeah, almost offended.

[979] Yeah.

[980] I say that because this was not an overnight phenomenon.

[981] Like, I'm going to win.

[982] Like, this is in 97.

[983] So my training, my approach to it all, my focus level needs to be tunnel vision.

[984] There's no distractions during that time.

[985] I'm training, I'm racing, I have a tight circle, and I'm doing what I need to do so that in 2000, I'm going to set the bar so high that it can never be touched again.

[986] Yeah.

[987] The Olympics comes around and I crush it.

[988] 100, 200 relay, long jump, three goals, two bronze, love it.

[989] At that games, though, is when C .J. J tested positive.

[990] Four times in a row.

[991] Right.

[992] During that time, hearing him and the news and not ever seeing anything that was different than anything I had done and knowing that I'm not doing anything wrong and he's my husband.

[993] I believe that he works hard and I'm going to defend him because this is now like they're trying to get him.

[994] Right.

[995] And ultimately then trying to bring me down with it as well.

[996] So I defend him.

[997] There's something wrong with the tests.

[998] and that's my stance on it.

[999] Go home, celebrated.

[1000] Somehow, the media, we were able to kind of balance it all.

[1001] Your husband tested, right?

[1002] But you achieve so much success.

[1003] You're still going to be our golden child.

[1004] And you had passed everything.

[1005] Every week.

[1006] Every week, all kinds of tests.

[1007] I'm the best in the world.

[1008] Did you pull him aside separately?

[1009] And were you like, what's going on?

[1010] Yeah, good question.

[1011] No, well, I remember the morning that it came out or that we were alerted.

[1012] Can I add?

[1013] He had a knee injury.

[1014] So at first, he's not going to compete because he has a knee injury.

[1015] He could have coasted on that.

[1016] But then when it came out, I mean, I had talked to him.

[1017] He's like, no. I mean, we're in the same circles.

[1018] The company that we hired makes his stuff.

[1019] And my team asked me, my attorney, how are we going to approach this?

[1020] Right.

[1021] I believe in him.

[1022] So I'm going to put myself out there.

[1023] When we left Sydney and I'm celebrated, it was just interesting looking back how the U .S. wanted this poster child.

[1024] Yeah, yeah.

[1025] You were perfect for it.

[1026] Even with that in the articles, it's just a small.

[1027] paragraph.

[1028] I was 25 in 2000, as were you, and I watched the whole thing.

[1029] Don't remember one iota of the husband.

[1030] Didn't even know about that.

[1031] Not until years later, did that all kind of get re -brought back up?

[1032] When do you know he is willfully participating?

[1033] When we got back to the States and I had my media tour and it was just insane, I started to sense with him there was a disconnect, not jealousy, but there was just something that was odd.

[1034] When both people have the same dream and one person is achieving that dream, even if you're the most benevolent, generous person, you are reminded second by second that you haven't accomplished your agreement.

[1035] And on top of that, his career is stalemated, if not.

[1036] It's over.

[1037] In a very public fashion, right?

[1038] Yeah, again, it wasn't one.

[1039] It was four tests for, no. And I don't know, whatever, a big one.

[1040] Yeah.

[1041] So not that I was then convinced, but I was getting closer to something that is not lining up here.

[1042] And there's no love connection.

[1043] There's no anything anymore.

[1044] And I'm having some suspicion about all of this.

[1045] Was he controlling?

[1046] Because I would imagine as you got shinier and shinier, there would have been an impulse for him to want to dim your light a little bit out of fear of losing you, insecurity.

[1047] it's hard to say yes but looking back I have friends and family members that were like we couldn't get to you yeah yeah I don't want to make it sound like I was locked in a no it can be on a subtle level and in top of that he is a big personality and loud and strong and big he's enormous he's a shot putter yeah in oh one I was just like I don't want to do this anymore for the first time needing to take ownership of my business and my world and without a man or a person.

[1048] Is it fair to say he kind of just picked up where mom left off?

[1049] He was a coach in a sense and he had a lot of opinions.

[1050] Yeah, I would say so.

[1051] I had a four -year gap from being under my mom's umbrella in college.

[1052] But again, I'm a college athlete.

[1053] So you have your coach there and your people there.

[1054] And 2001 for me was a very liberating year.

[1055] I was paying my coach and I was paying my manager and it wasn't like my husband taking care of all these things for me. And I'm coming off the biggest year of my world.

[1056] First woman to ever get five medals in track and field in the Olympics.

[1057] Your legend status at 25.

[1058] I like to say though during that time, I was on such a wave.

[1059] It sounds like a wonderful thing.

[1060] But I look back and see this wave that I was so far away from reality.

[1061] I was out in the ocean where I had surrounded myself with people who were constantly just telling me how great I was.

[1062] Like they were my yes people.

[1063] Yeah, well, they're on the payroll.

[1064] Right?

[1065] Anything I said was awesome.

[1066] Like what a great idea that is.

[1067] The friends and the family members that could see through it all, I would distance myself with them.

[1068] And I had the means to do it.

[1069] I had the means to do it.

[1070] need anybody.

[1071] Yeah.

[1072] Yeah.

[1073] It's a very isolating.

[1074] It's where you're getting all this public adoration you dreamt of and then you're getting longlier and long lera.

[1075] It's very confusing.

[1076] I'm still just dealing with childhood shit that I'd just never had resolved.

[1077] And it's just a lonely time.

[1078] And so then I enter another relationship with another track and feel athlete.

[1079] And again, getting caught in that wave.

[1080] And getting pregnant in 2002.

[1081] having to make a decision, right?

[1082] Okay, well, we're going to put the sport on hold.

[1083] Yeah, so this is huge.

[1084] You're coming off this experience in 2000, and in four years, presumably you're going to want to go back and get five golds next time.

[1085] Getting pregnant cannot be a part of the game plan.

[1086] I think most people in the United States think that track and field athletes compete only every four years.

[1087] Right, right, right, right.

[1088] When we see them.

[1089] Oh, they're back.

[1090] They're like cicadas.

[1091] The majority of the big competitions in Europe are throughout those four years.

[1092] It's huge.

[1093] It's the NBA season in Europe.

[1094] To make that decision, I mean, I was excited about it.

[1095] I wanted to have kids.

[1096] Timing wasn't great, but my oldest was born in 2003.

[1097] And I was with another trackster, right?

[1098] He's training hard.

[1099] And he lived life on the edge, another rebellious personality, which is a little bit like, ah, it's a pattern.

[1100] Right.

[1101] Like, okay.

[1102] My mom, looking back, sometimes if we just listen to it.

[1103] Oh, yeah.

[1104] Life would be so easy.

[1105] Can't do it, though.

[1106] We can't do it.

[1107] No, I can't.

[1108] I can't do it.

[1109] Can't be done.

[1110] That's why I don't even waste my time with my kids.

[1111] I'm like, yeah, whatever you think.

[1112] I can just remember her saying, like, what?

[1113] This dude, also in the middle, we're going to the Olympics in a year and a half.

[1114] Yeah, if I was your parent.

[1115] You just ended one.

[1116] Ended one with the personality.

[1117] And this guy's very tough time for me. Were you worried at that point?

[1118] Like, I've lost a year of training in the way I need to.

[1119] When did you start knowingly go.

[1120] we got to amp up what we're taking.

[1121] There is not a lot of research, even now, with female athletes who've been at the top of sport, going through childbearing and how to get back to the top of the sport.

[1122] I mean, you have a few arena, but there's no book.

[1123] There was definitely a concern with that.

[1124] And at that point, I had distanced myself from my circle coach training folks that I had before was embarking on a new world, a new coach trying to get back from having a kid.

[1125] So making sure that my supplement game, that my blood work, I know what I'm deficient in because naturally the body is different after you have a child.

[1126] At no point, even in all of that, am I ever making a choice to say, well, I'm going to do something illegal?

[1127] No, but I'm just going to make sure it's tight.

[1128] Because can I point out something?

[1129] This happens in bodybuilding, right?

[1130] Like these natural, quote, bodybuilding competitions.

[1131] You can use steroids and all kinds of different banned substances for months and months and months prior, go off during the event and then resume after.

[1132] And you have built muscle and you've built cytones or whatever they're called.

[1133] Like you have enhanced your body even if you then go off for a few months.

[1134] So that's on the table for people.

[1135] Never did I say, okay, that's my option.

[1136] With me, it was all of the areas in my life that...

[1137] are lacking.

[1138] I'm going to make sure that weekly, I'm getting supplement shots and hire a company who's going to create this product.

[1139] Is this Balco at this point?

[1140] Correct.

[1141] There's a documentary on Balco.

[1142] It's so fascinating.

[1143] I haven't watched.

[1144] You haven't.

[1145] They've reached out to me for like comment.

[1146] It's led by this guy, Victor Conte, and boy, what a guy.

[1147] He was Barry Bonds.

[1148] This whole scandal ends up.

[1149] The feds ultimately invade Balco.

[1150] That's your claim to fame.

[1151] Like, dude, that's fine.

[1152] something else.

[1153] Yeah, that guy's a bummer.

[1154] But 2004, I'm going to train hard.

[1155] Nothing is really changing in terms of different supplements, but I am now on a regimen.

[1156] You're getting shots and stuff.

[1157] It's nothing where I would be scared to take a test.

[1158] I am still the most tested athlete in the world.

[1159] And 2004, for me, was a disappointment.

[1160] I made the Olympic team and I did fairly well, but not what I wanted.

[1161] I attribute that to just a rough few years.

[1162] Yeah.

[1163] Well, you had a baby in the middle of all that.

[1164] Yeah.

[1165] I don't know the specific year, but during that time, there was just a lot of stuff in the news about athletes and performance enhancing drugs.

[1166] I get the call.

[1167] Federal investigators called me in and they wanted to just talk to me about any knowledge that I might have about anything in the sports.

[1168] We kind of knew that it was going to happen because they were inviting all the top athletes.

[1169] Tim, the father of your first child, he's embroiled in all this as well.

[1170] Yeah, well, we're part of the same training program.

[1171] Yeah, but it's a repeat.

[1172] Yeah.

[1173] And so I see on one hand when people do their subtle assessments of my career and they're like, I see this pattern.

[1174] You're in a relationship with this dude and this happens and you're in a relationship with this dude and this happens and you're part of this training group.

[1175] I see it and I get called in there.

[1176] San Francisco.

[1177] I have my attorney with me and representative, and I have two federal investigators sitting across the table.

[1178] And initially, it was gentle.

[1179] Asked me general questions.

[1180] What do I know about anything in the sport?

[1181] And I'm answering.

[1182] And then you can tell very quickly their questions become charged, almost like they're upset.

[1183] They think that I'm hiding something.

[1184] The moments that is now embedded in my memory is when one of them reaches into their briefcase and they pull.

[1185] out like a little Ziploc bag.

[1186] And it has this container in it of a substance.

[1187] It looks clearish, yellowish.

[1188] And it kind of like pushed it across in front of me. I looked at it and I was like, I know this.

[1189] I take that.

[1190] I sensationalize it, but it literally was probably like 20 seconds.

[1191] I think in my head, wait, is this what I've been hearing about in the news with all these athletes?

[1192] It's this thing called the clear.

[1193] And it's a performance enhancing drug.

[1194] Specifics of it.

[1195] I don't know.

[1196] It wasn't presented to me as anything that clear.

[1197] It was presented to me as a type of oil that I was deficient in.

[1198] But I, in that moment, see it, know that I've taken it for a while, put two and two together.

[1199] And I'm like, okay, oh, shit.

[1200] I've been doping.

[1201] Yes.

[1202] And if I tell them that I know it, that I've taken it.

[1203] Your entire world goes on the toilet and a fly.

[1204] It's going to be gone.

[1205] So what do I do?

[1206] Could I have said, okay, pause.

[1207] Can I go and talk to my attorney?

[1208] That would have been a good move in retrospect.

[1209] Correct.

[1210] It would, but also then you're like, then what does that look like?

[1211] Who would know what to do?

[1212] You're in a movie now.

[1213] This is in a possible situation.

[1214] In that split seconds, hell no. And in my head, I'm also like, but I've passed every test.

[1215] Yeah, you're probably in denial.

[1216] I've been tested.

[1217] No. I don't know what it is.

[1218] I've never taken it.

[1219] They just get more and more upset to the point they just call it.

[1220] And I did not even at that point tell my counsel.

[1221] Like, nobody needs to.

[1222] to know.

[1223] You're going to compartmentalize this and you're going to put it in a little tiny room in your head and then you're just never going to talk about or think about it again.

[1224] And I'm training.

[1225] I'm still being tested and I'm still winning races.

[1226] By this point, my son was won.

[1227] My issue, let's go back to that word was that when they reached out to me and my counsel, at that point I had nothing to hide.

[1228] And so they presented what's called a queen for a day letter.

[1229] You sign this, you're saying that you're going to tell the truth.

[1230] No matter what your truth is, you can never be prosecuted.

[1231] It won't be brought up.

[1232] It's kind of like you haven't been read your Miranda rights and you're going to talk off the record.

[1233] None of this can be brought into trial.

[1234] Yeah.

[1235] So I talked with my counsel.

[1236] We signed the letter.

[1237] The little that I know about all of this legal stuff, if I was to admit to lying, then the shit is really going to hit the fan.

[1238] So I'm going to hold on to this lie.

[1239] And I'm going to hold on to this lie.

[1240] Here's where it starts.

[1241] This is where it starts.

[1242] So at this point, let's say it's 2005, 2006.

[1243] My oldest son is now a real human.

[1244] They're not a baby anymore.

[1245] And they're running around and they're getting into trouble and they're making poor choices.

[1246] And I'm telling my kid, once you make a poor choice, like how should you handle this situation?

[1247] You come and tell mom and we deal with the consequences and then you move on.

[1248] And I'm telling him that and I'm having an interview or I'm traveling around the world.

[1249] world and I'm just lying.

[1250] Oof, man. Okay, right.

[1251] So hold on a second.

[1252] This is like, this is where the real story starts from my perspective.

[1253] We're now living in a lie.

[1254] And it's not like this topic comes up once in a while for you.

[1255] It's been coming up for five straight years since the first Olympics.

[1256] So you're going to regularly get asked about this.

[1257] You're going to have to lie over and over and over again.

[1258] And I start to say, you know what?

[1259] Now my kid at some point in his.

[1260] world can do a timeline.

[1261] And they can say, wow, I was born in 03.

[1262] And in 05, my mom is still running and she's still doing interviews.

[1263] At some point, he'll be able to do math.

[1264] And realizing at that point that as much as I'm going to lose the respect of my kid trumps everything.

[1265] Wow.

[1266] It's the one thing that's got to be preserved.

[1267] And I make the decision.

[1268] that it's done.

[1269] It's very brave.

[1270] I don't see it like, I mean, I have one hand, but I'm just like, I'm not going to continue this.

[1271] It's worth it, but it's not worth it anymore.

[1272] Stay tuned for more armchair expert, if you dare.

[1273] How are you dealing with that experience of living with a lie, looking at people lying?

[1274] You have this little compartment in your head, this mental gymnastics.

[1275] What's happening as a result of that?

[1276] Are other things starting to fall apart, becoming depressed?

[1277] Are you trying to regulate yourself through other things?

[1278] There's this idea that, one, I'm not competing like how I'm used to, which is a thing of itself.

[1279] Right.

[1280] You've lost the biggest part of your life already.

[1281] That's for a few reasons.

[1282] I'm older.

[1283] I have a kid and then I have a second one in 07.

[1284] My competition days of being where I was, that's in the first.

[1285] pass and having to deal with that is traumatic.

[1286] If that was the only thing happening in your life, yeah, yeah, you'd probably shave your head again.

[1287] Yes.

[1288] You never shaved your head.

[1289] I'm going to back to.

[1290] But I want to make it even more dramatic.

[1291] So you're going to shake your head.

[1292] Also at that point, this whole idea of living a lie in a lot of different ways, knowing that I am gay.

[1293] Are you ever indulging in that?

[1294] Not during relationships.

[1295] While I was in college, there was fun times.

[1296] There was some fun nights.

[1297] but living with that too after I graduated from college making the choice that I needed to fit in a certain compartment for Nike for everybody like it's easier when you fit in this white picket fence so you're already pretty well rehearsed in living with a lot you've got kind of multiple ones you're juggling it's just it's untenable right and then there's injuries like I had a back injury and there's just so much.

[1298] So 2007, my second son is born.

[1299] I don't want to do this anymore.

[1300] So it had been two years of kind of living and perpetuating that life.

[1301] And I reached out to my council and I shared with them that I got to do this.

[1302] And they're like, well, do you know everything that could potentially happen and we put it all out there.

[1303] And it was the biggest surprise of my life when I came clean, shared with prosecutors, they took me to trial.

[1304] There was a recommendation in all of it that community service would be my sentence.

[1305] Went in there, really thinking that.

[1306] Yeah, expecting that.

[1307] There's no precedent for any of this.

[1308] You haven't heard anyone.

[1309] You haven't stolen anything.

[1310] You haven't been violent.

[1311] The notion that you have to be separated from society seems like that's got to be off the table.

[1312] Separated from the Olympics, maybe.

[1313] There's no exposure of that in my life.

[1314] Like, I don't come from a neighborhood or, like, were there, I had a cousin.

[1315] And so I can remember, I don't know how long sitting in front of that judge, courtroom full of people.

[1316] And he's just, like, got to use you as a lesson.

[1317] And I'm like, what does that mean?

[1318] And he came out something like six months.

[1319] He said it so fast.

[1320] I didn't even grasp that he was actually saying six months incarceration.

[1321] Yeah, and you had a brand new baby.

[1322] Brand new baby.

[1323] My wife won't go away for two days for the first two years.

[1324] Yeah, yeah.

[1325] On vacation.

[1326] Right, right, right.

[1327] I mean, when this two and a half hour speech, I always like to say speech was done, I looked at my attorney and I said, it's like, what did he say that I have to do?

[1328] And just being in shock.

[1329] How long from the sentencing to you have to report to prison?

[1330] A few months or something like that.

[1331] I was remarried then and made the choice that the boys were going to go to his parents out of the country for reasons that were very purposeful.

[1332] Very purposeful.

[1333] I needed to get them away from everything and serve my time.

[1334] I never wanted my kids ever to come and visit in a setting like that.

[1335] Like, I never want my kids ever to feel comfortable in a setting like that.

[1336] You don't want to give them that memory.

[1337] So making that choice that I would deal with being without them and knowing that they're in a loving environment.

[1338] On a fun island.

[1339] Right.

[1340] Just with people that love them.

[1341] They're on vacation.

[1342] So at first was, sentenced to a certain facility in Texas.

[1343] And then it came back a month later that they were going to put me in a more secure facility, which wound up being one of the hardest federal institution for women in the country with the idea that they're putting me there so that I'm protected more.

[1344] That's some interesting logic.

[1345] You should have been with like the tax evaders and shit.

[1346] This particular institution was in Fort Worth, Texas.

[1347] It's about three hours from my hometown of Austin.

[1348] And again, I'm a planner.

[1349] I need to read the book.

[1350] And there are no books turning myself in and wanting to be like everybody else on that particular day, meaning they're helicopters when I turned myself that day.

[1351] When I walked into the common room, I guess, with other inmates, my story of me turning myself in is on the TV.

[1352] That's very surreal.

[1353] Telling myself, all right, this is six months.

[1354] You're tough.

[1355] and we're going to do this and we're going to crush it.

[1356] You're a fast runner if you've got to run away from something.

[1357] The way that I deal with stuff is superior.

[1358] The fact that I've been able to get through this and get through this and get through this, I'm going to crush this and almost make a challenge out of it.

[1359] Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

[1360] Make it a competition.

[1361] Do the best version of this that could be done, yeah.

[1362] And I figure out my flow in there.

[1363] This is how you do it in prison.

[1364] Like you pay somebody to do X, Y, and, and see and there's commissary and there's a different world.

[1365] This is how you do it.

[1366] Understand it really quick.

[1367] Find out who's part of your team and who's not, who you stay away from.

[1368] And I'm charming, right?

[1369] Like, I'll just say it.

[1370] I know how to handle myself in every situation.

[1371] Well, you've been in the public eye.

[1372] Seeing different cultures and find my way, I think, pretty quickly.

[1373] And then didn't find my way.

[1374] There's two parts of this prison.

[1375] There's a camp side, a camp.

[1376] And those are like the tax.

[1377] And I'm on that side.

[1378] And there's five of us in a hotel room.

[1379] No, not a hotel room, but like a room, right?

[1380] Right.

[1381] And on the other side of the barbed wire, there are the real criminals.

[1382] Hard criminal.

[1383] Right.

[1384] Drug trafficker.

[1385] Murderer.

[1386] You hear about that.

[1387] And you get jobs on the campside.

[1388] And you're a little more free moving.

[1389] I could do this.

[1390] There's a track.

[1391] And then I got into an altercation with somebody who was.

[1392] my roommate.

[1393] So in this type of setting, money is commissary.

[1394] You don't get real money.

[1395] Get people put money on your books.

[1396] Some people in there don't have anybody to put money on their books.

[1397] So they do side hustles or jobs, meaning that they will do your laundry.

[1398] And there's only two machines on the campside.

[1399] And you literally have to stand there for three hours so that nobody steals your stuff.

[1400] I don't want to do that.

[1401] And I have commissary.

[1402] So I hire somebody to do the laundry.

[1403] Like, that's what she does, not just for me, for other people.

[1404] And we pay her in commissary.

[1405] I have a job in the kitchen.

[1406] Life is not too hard.

[1407] I work out every day.

[1408] And I like to say that by the time I left in those six months, I probably was in better shape ever.

[1409] Anyways.

[1410] And so because I work out every day, I have workout clothes.

[1411] Like you can buy sweats on commissary.

[1412] And all of a sudden, I'm seeing that my shit is gone.

[1413] I don't have as many sweats.

[1414] And it's noticeable because I use it every single day.

[1415] Right.

[1416] And I'm paying somebody to do my lunch.

[1417] And I'm paying somebody to do my laundry.

[1418] And how do I navigate somebody who relies on their commissary?

[1419] And now I'm going to ask them not to do my laundry.

[1420] And so I decide that I'm going to just have her and I in the room.

[1421] Like, I'm not going to do it in front of other people.

[1422] I don't want to embarrass her.

[1423] And so everybody had left for the day with their jobs.

[1424] And I say, you know, I think I'm going to, and I didn't even say why.

[1425] You didn't accuse her.

[1426] Right.

[1427] I just said, you know, I was going to do my own laundry.

[1428] And she didn't take that very well at all.

[1429] And I found out later on that she was on some type of meds to control her mood.

[1430] while she was in there.

[1431] And I was like, and that's that.

[1432] I'm going to leave the room.

[1433] And she decided I wasn't going to leave the room.

[1434] And there was an altercation.

[1435] And I finally was able to get out of the room and saw a guard.

[1436] You know, I was scratched up.

[1437] She was bloody chasing me or whatever.

[1438] And so when that happens, they take you to the other side of the prison.

[1439] It's called the shoe.

[1440] It's solitary.

[1441] Because it was just her word versus my word, and they have this investigation.

[1442] And it's not happening overnight.

[1443] So I spent over 49 days in solitary.

[1444] Oh, my God.

[1445] And on top of that, this part of the story was never even revealed.

[1446] Because at a coach during that time, that was also investigated, he was having a trial in California.

[1447] And the feds decided to put me on what I call con air to fly me to California just in case they wanted to use me in that trial, which they never wound up doing.

[1448] but having to do con air and along the way, different stops and they don't tell you where you're going.

[1449] They have child molesters on the front of the plane.

[1450] Like, you're walking past all that.

[1451] I'm having to stay in county prisons, which is the worst of the worst.

[1452] And not knowing where I'm going, can't call my counsel, can't call my husband or anything at that time, never being used in the trial, getting flown back to Texas.

[1453] So for over 49 days in solitary, traveling Conair, county prisons, back now at this particular federal institution.

[1454] And finally getting the investigators to say, it's your word versus hers.

[1455] She got a bloodied lip.

[1456] You guys have served enough in solitary.

[1457] You can go back to the campside.

[1458] And by that point, I had about a month or a month and a half left there.

[1459] Oh, my God.

[1460] Yeah.

[1461] Let me go back to the 49 days because it was probably the time that I needed of what I call my quiet.

[1462] time that everybody needs.

[1463] I was slowed down, right?

[1464] Yeah, you couldn't distract yourself.

[1465] Couldn't distract myself with anything else.

[1466] And I had to go over stuff that had happened to me as a child, like why I had made certain decisions, like in every step.

[1467] But then do I hang out in that space?

[1468] Even when I'm released, now I got two kids and there's no sporting career and there's no public life.

[1469] Nobody wants to hear what I have to say.

[1470] Now what, Marion?

[1471] And without that time, things I do not think would have been clear in regards to what my future would look like.

[1472] So was it hard?

[1473] Yeah.

[1474] Do I wish it on anybody?

[1475] No. Did I need it?

[1476] And I'm appreciative of it.

[1477] Hell yeah.

[1478] Wow.

[1479] Wow.

[1480] That's a fucking great attitude.

[1481] Right.

[1482] Because at that point, I'm like, I am on this planet for something bigger and better than running down the track fast for 10 plus seconds.

[1483] And I know that inspired people.

[1484] But I have so much faith in the person that my mom raised me to be that there's bigger stuff out there for me than just that.

[1485] And I'm going to prove it to myself and to my world and to my mother and to my kids that my failure is not forever.

[1486] That my setback is going to no doubt be my biggest comeback.

[1487] Everybody can relate to hard things happening to them.

[1488] Although I was the best of the best.

[1489] John could have been the best of the best at what he did and he made a blanked up decision and he lost it all.

[1490] It could have been a blanked up decision about his relationship and there was a divorce and now kids are dealing with crap and he's in that space.

[1491] We are all at some point in that solitary.

[1492] We're all in our own prison.

[1493] You don't have to stay there and you can fight and it's going to be hard and I'm going to come out of here and I did not have a platform to share anything except the crap.

[1494] And although it's part of the story, it's not really part of the story if people are wanting to dig down deep into it.

[1495] The part of the story that I want people to hear is that if you're looking in the mirror and saying, besides that young boy that you told us about earlier on, he was doing fine.

[1496] Yeah, he's just doing so fine.

[1497] Almost every person in their world is dealing with something.

[1498] And maybe by looking at my journey, my story, and they see that it's not over.

[1499] And so when I came out, I got to call it my six months vacation, I could have easily just disappeared.

[1500] Just been a normal mom raising my kids.

[1501] But there's a bigger, bigger story than one that was already written for me and one that I wanted to write myself.

[1502] But I needed a platform.

[1503] I loved the sport of basketball.

[1504] I had been drafted when I came out of college in the league.

[1505] Not only do I love the sport and I have a desire physically to do something challenging.

[1506] Also, you could really benefit from some teammates about now.

[1507] That's right.

[1508] Some community.

[1509] That's.

[1510] But I needed a platform to share.

[1511] Shit happens to everybody, but it doesn't have to be the end story for you.

[1512] And I wanted a challenge, a physical challenge.

[1513] So I made a WNBA team.

[1514] And it was a humbling experience because I hadn't played in almost two decades.

[1515] Wow.

[1516] So again, reinventing.

[1517] myself in my darkest moment, 49 days, six months vacation, and saying, you know what, it's not over.

[1518] Running fast on the track and being on the cover of Vogue, that part is over.

[1519] But that's just such a small part of the story.

[1520] And I'm not going to allow that to be the end.

[1521] Yeah.

[1522] Wow, man. Oh, man. Okay.

[1523] Are you capable of having not compassion, but understanding and empathy for why the reaction against you was so cruel and punitive?

[1524] Have you been able to actually acknowledge why that was the reaction?

[1525] Because I personally think it's because it's not just that they liked you, they loved you.

[1526] They kind of made themselves vulnerable in a way to feel the way they felt about you.

[1527] And so I think people took it personal on a level.

[1528] They had no right to take it personal.

[1529] Yeah, that's on them.

[1530] It's on them, of course.

[1531] but it's almost like if you've been cheated on by someone you love.

[1532] If people didn't care about you, no one would give a fuck.

[1533] Your then husband also went down.

[1534] A lot of people went down.

[1535] No one really gave a shit.

[1536] They're like, I didn't root for that person.

[1537] I wasn't singing from the roof.

[1538] I love this person.

[1539] So in a bizarre way, what I would hope you could take from that is that this outrage and anger towards you is really kind of the receipt that they loved you so much.

[1540] And I don't know if you can.

[1541] Yeah, I don't know if you can see it that way.

[1542] I don't know if I'm totally there yet.

[1543] But I also know that I embrace this idea of being that person to so many people.

[1544] I'm not going to say I played into it, but I get it.

[1545] I let people in my world and that confidence in something so great was chopped down.

[1546] by my choices.

[1547] What I don't get is that so many people are stuck there.

[1548] Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[1549] I'm not saying that the outcome is just.

[1550] Yeah.

[1551] And I'm not saying you deserved any of it.

[1552] But I'm saying in your best, most generous way, you might be able to find a little thread that you can pull, which is this is actually proof everyone loved you.

[1553] I understand it.

[1554] If they didn't care about you, they wouldn't care.

[1555] This is celebrity in general.

[1556] People love to love you and then love when you fall.

[1557] We talk about this nonstop.

[1558] There is a betrayal bias there that like, oh my God, she betrayed me, but you didn't.

[1559] You didn't betray anyone.

[1560] People take that on all the time.

[1561] Celebrities is like theirs or I love them or they mean so much to me. But that's because their reality is thwarted.

[1562] For sure.

[1563] I just think that Marion has the option to look at the world after the wake of all this and going, no, none of you guys ever liked me. Couldn't wait to say fuck you and get out of here and punish me. Yeah, I don't think that.

[1564] You could walk away with that conclusion or you could attempt to look at it as it's weirdly proof of this enormous love people had for you and have for you.

[1565] But again, I'm a fucking addict who's done all kinds of shit and live with all kinds.

[1566] So it's like, I ain't one to judge like the shit you did.

[1567] The fact that you were publicly disgraced and sent to prison, girl, you haven't done a tenth of what I did in my addiction.

[1568] So it's completely unfair.

[1569] And I think what has helped me is that I don't see it like that.

[1570] I hear it.

[1571] And people have presented it to me like that.

[1572] But I see, and I joke with my clients and the people that I work with, God must think I'm one strong, bad mamma jama.

[1573] Because I'm also a believer, right?

[1574] And I know that you don't get more than what you can really handle.

[1575] There's a true purpose for my world in that I needed to have gone through stuff so that my testimony can be one that truly will inspire even more people.

[1576] The one thing is kind of very surface and easy.

[1577] And then the other thing actually is connection and resonance and human I see you.

[1578] So weirdly, the people that have been weeded out at this point, the ones that are still there are actually the ones you want.

[1579] It's very substantive.

[1580] If someone looks at you and goes like, oh man, yeah, I fucked up.

[1581] And I got to do it privately.

[1582] And I got to do it quietly.

[1583] And fuck me if I had to have my shittiest day on planet Earth in front of 6 ,000 reporters.

[1584] Yeah.

[1585] And then been made an example of.

[1586] But ultimately, we're talking about a run in a game.

[1587] Again, it's not like you swindled a bunch of old people out of money or you injured somebody.

[1588] So it is comical on the surface of what the real stakes were.

[1589] But again, I think that's why you got to ask yourself, why was it so powerful to people?

[1590] And again, I ultimately think it's love weirdly.

[1591] So it doesn't mean you got to forgive everyone or not be upset that that was the reaction.

[1592] but I just do think there's something interesting about the reactions to different people.

[1593] What I am grateful for is that there are people who are my age, our age, who are still struggling with this disguise and covering stuff up in their world.

[1594] If my hard story can be heard by one person and they look at their story, like my stuff is really not that bad compared like all that she's had to deal with right I would hope that that'd be like you know what I can get through this this is what I hold on to these days I like that failure is not forever hey it doesn't have to be like you can find your passion and that's where I'm at right now and that's why I'm so excited that people want to hear my story there's a passion about where I'm at in my world right now what is your outlet right now I know you were training for a while.

[1595] You were like a coach.

[1596] Yeah.

[1597] So now I'm a personal, professional development coach.

[1598] And what that looks like is I have a passion for fitness.

[1599] So I have clients.

[1600] But I've also now partnered with a company where we teach success to entrepreneurs.

[1601] Like, what is the mindset?

[1602] We could do a whole other podcast, just the mindset on how to be successful, how to set goals, how to get through hard times with your business.

[1603] I love it.

[1604] Driven performance.

[1605] So I train fitness.

[1606] virtually.

[1607] And those people also get my life coaching step by step and I partner with an amazing New York Times bestseller.

[1608] I'm at a place.

[1609] I have a partner now with three plus years.

[1610] My kids are in a good place.

[1611] You live in the best city in the country.

[1612] I live in my best friggin life.

[1613] And it's after all of that.

[1614] Yeah, the theoretical best moment of your life, which is standing on that podium.

[1615] Let me ask you this, though, because I have felt robbed of this experience.

[1616] So you were seeing...

[1617] Standing on the podium?

[1618] No. I've had versions of it.

[1619] But the moment you were witnessing at 9, when the sprinter crosses and it's by an inch, and that elation you think you saw, did you experience it when it happened to you?

[1620] Yes.

[1621] If you look at images of me crossing the finish line at the 100 meters at the Sydney Olympics, one step over the line in a stadium of 100 plus thousand people, not knowing where my mother was in that and looking up and finding my mother.

[1622] And so although all of those medals and all of the records have been wiped, certain memories can never be taken.

[1623] Yeah, yeah.

[1624] Have you had to trade this medal you gave back versus finding your mom in that moment and she had put so much into it too?

[1625] And when I gave the medals back, that's what I thought.

[1626] To me, the medals were just the material stuff.

[1627] I worked my ass off.

[1628] I just was blessed with amount of talent from discipline, motivated.

[1629] So, yes, I get it.

[1630] I understand.

[1631] You give the medals back.

[1632] But I won that race.

[1633] Yeah.

[1634] And that's hard for people to hear, right?

[1635] People that have been hurt.

[1636] And I know, right?

[1637] And this is controversial.

[1638] Every woman in that race knows that I would have won that race.

[1639] And that's going to create its own whatever.

[1640] I can care less.

[1641] Yeah.

[1642] Right.

[1643] Right.

[1644] They know it.

[1645] Most of them are our age.

[1646] They grew up running against me. I was beating them by five, 10 meters at age nine, at age 12, at age 15.

[1647] So I get it.

[1648] They're your medals, that moment.

[1649] I can't take it all.

[1650] And what I find now is when I see people come up to me and they're like, yeah, Marion, that was tough.

[1651] But thank you right now.

[1652] Because this is the point in my life, especially if there are age, that is hard for them.

[1653] Yeah.

[1654] They're covering up something.

[1655] Like I shared last week on the anniversary of the legalization of gay marriage.

[1656] In essence, I came out to the world.

[1657] My world, my family have known for a long time.

[1658] but I shared on my Instagram feed that I identify and the outpouring of supports from people, not just people in that community, but people that are like, I am living a lie.

[1659] When I see that, that's almost like my moment of crossing the finish line.

[1660] Yeah, and I would even argue that it's a little more substantive.

[1661] Right.

[1662] One thing is very impermanent and temporary.

[1663] It's that moment, it's going on the stage, whatever, and that's gone.

[1664] But the other thing is integrity, which is kind of daily and hourly and potentially forever.

[1665] Well, and one thing changes your life.

[1666] The other thing changes other people's lives.

[1667] And that's the most significant.

[1668] Yeah.

[1669] And we haven't talked about this, but my kids seeing, we go back to the timeline.

[1670] And now they're older.

[1671] And now they can look if and when they do.

[1672] And I'm sure they have and they will in their future.

[1673] And they're going to do the timeline and just be like, you know what?

[1674] She did it.

[1675] And it was hard.

[1676] And she made poor choices, but we came in this world and she was going to rewrite the narrative for us and for her, but for them.

[1677] Like to me, that's everything.

[1678] Yeah, man, that moment.

[1679] Obviously, when you were making the speech, you're crying.

[1680] I've seen it a million times.

[1681] Did you at least walk away a thousand pounds lighter despite how sad it was?

[1682] Oh, yes.

[1683] Oh, the liberation of fucking finally owning up to all this shit.

[1684] I had my mom there.

[1685] She has her hand on my shoulder.

[1686] And when I look back at that image, and I really do, but in my head, her touching me, holding me, embracing me is my reassurance that what she instilled in me and my brother is something that will carry me into this next season of my life.

[1687] That she's already equipped me with all the armor and the tools to get through anything.

[1688] and then do it even better.

[1689] Well, again, she's at least reminding you in that very moment you're worthy of love even on your worst day.

[1690] Yeah.

[1691] She's right there.

[1692] Yeah.

[1693] It's an incredible story.

[1694] I'm really grateful you came in and told it to us.

[1695] I appreciate it.

[1696] I hope so many people.

[1697] That's my hope.

[1698] I've been there.

[1699] I'm not like, gotcha.

[1700] At this point, my satisfaction comes from people saying, thanks, Marion.

[1701] I needed to be reminded that my voice can be heard.

[1702] even when maybe you don't think it can be.

[1703] I can be seen, even though I'm not going to be on the cover of this.

[1704] I'm important.

[1705] Well, Marion, this has been a delight.

[1706] Thank you.

[1707] I'm so thrilled to hear from you and to hear that you've lived long beyond that moment and you've thrived and you're happy.

[1708] It's very inspiring.

[1709] I appreciate it.

[1710] I'm going to show you a kindness and not insist you race me in the backyard like I did to Felix.

[1711] That's something I did in the past.

[1712] Yeah.

[1713] You've learned from that?

[1714] Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[1715] Okay, good.

[1716] Good.

[1717] Because God knows I want to race in the back yard now.

[1718] All right.

[1719] Be well.

[1720] Good luck with everything.

[1721] Thanks for coming.

[1722] Safety well.

[1723] Stay tuned for the fact check.

[1724] It's where the parties at.

[1725] Let's update the cherries.

[1726] Okay.

[1727] This is our first fact check in the attic that now has a door on the bathroom.

[1728] And no more cords hanging out of the ceiling.

[1729] It's fine.

[1730] I know.

[1731] It's fine.

[1732] It's an adjustment.

[1733] You keep wanting to talk about it.

[1734] And it's like you want, you're like, you like want me to process.

[1735] I don't want you carrying around any.

[1736] No, but I think you have to let people process on their own time.

[1737] Okay.

[1738] But just to add color to the situation.

[1739] So Rob, who always goes outside to pee, either goes in the guest house or in the porta potty, he just went pee -p.

[1740] I think number one.

[1741] Yeah, number one.

[1742] Yeah, while we were in here recording.

[1743] That's interesting.

[1744] It was fine.

[1745] It was disruptive.

[1746] I don't love it.

[1747] In a bizarre way, to me, it feels much less private.

[1748] Oh, really?

[1749] Yes.

[1750] We had a guest this morning, and they went to the bathroom after, where normally we'd walk out.

[1751] And I still, I was like, I got to get out of here.

[1752] Because you can kind of hear those stepping in there.

[1753] And like, I, no. This is a disaster.

[1754] Okay.

[1755] I don't want to talk about it anymore.

[1756] I have a lot more to process.

[1757] Okay.

[1758] But I'm, I can handle it.

[1759] I can handle whatever feelings you have about it.

[1760] Okay.

[1761] Well, maybe the move would have just been, just to fix the drywall and all the hanging cords and leave the bathroom as it is.

[1762] Yeah, we can't go back.

[1763] No, I'm going to have them undo it all.

[1764] You can do a glass door maybe.

[1765] Oh, so we could see.

[1766] I just take the door off the hinges.

[1767] But also now it's all fucked up, like the chair's in the wrong spot.

[1768] Yeah, that was unforeseen.

[1769] I will grant you that.

[1770] It really messed up where the - The feng shui is fucked.

[1771] There you go.

[1772] So what we'll do is we'll put the chair there and then we'll hang a little curtain between us and the - I don't want to talk about it.

[1773] You want me stress.

[1774] No, no, I just wanted you to build a vent.

[1775] Okay, but I don't - I could take your disappointment.

[1776] I feel better processing it in my bedroom by myself.

[1777] on my own time.

[1778] Okay, great.

[1779] Let's get past this.

[1780] I want to talk about the Olympics.

[1781] Great, because I have so much to say about the Olympics that I was writing it down this weekend.

[1782] Oh, wait, real quick, sorry, real quick, because it's Thursday.

[1783] Today is Thursday.

[1784] This is also for Marion Jones.

[1785] Ding, ding, ding, ding.

[1786] Oh, my God.

[1787] Oh, my God.

[1788] Today is the all -around final for gymnastics.

[1789] Oh.

[1790] And as of now, probably, I'm watching.

[1791] it live.

[1792] And I'm about to do a podcast right after this.

[1793] Ari Saperstein's podcast.

[1794] Will you be watching it at like 8 in the morning?

[1795] I think it's 9 or 930.

[1796] Okay.

[1797] And then we're immediately recording when it's done.

[1798] Wow.

[1799] All my thoughts.

[1800] And I've been brushing up on all my thoughts this weekend.

[1801] Okay, great.

[1802] So let's start with probably what we will be discussing right now is everything we saw happen on the opening weekend.

[1803] Yes.

[1804] Right.

[1805] So maybe a lot of stuff has happened in the next three days that people will be like, how the fuck are you not talking about that?

[1806] But this is where we're at thus far.

[1807] I want to start with an umbrella statement.

[1808] I almost forgot how much I like the Olympics.

[1809] I have complaints.

[1810] It occurred to me. In fact, this was one of the foundational elements of our friendship.

[1811] And as I included you into Nate and I's world, and you were participating, which is I live for the penises in the Olympics.

[1812] I know.

[1813] Love them.

[1814] Love them.

[1815] Well, you said, I know, you said that, like, you were disappointed, but there was a period where you really liked the penises, too.

[1816] I did.

[1817] I do.

[1818] You've outgrown it?

[1819] I'm, you matured.

[1820] I might have.

[1821] I don't know.

[1822] I don't know yet, because I haven't seen much so far.

[1823] That's my complaint.

[1824] Okay.

[1825] I watched probably 55 hours of Olympics since Friday.

[1826] And, I mean, anything I'm doing, I'm watching, I'm working on, I'm watching Olympics.

[1827] I'm putting my tools away in my garage.

[1828] I'm watching, watch, I'm watching.

[1829] And there's not been any events yet that.

[1830] really showcase the male penis.

[1831] Yeah.

[1832] And if people don't know, what you mean is like the latex, the tight, a lot of the runners, like you really see movement.

[1833] I mean, I captured the total unicorn of all this, which was there was last Olympics, if you recall, there was a long jumper whose pants split open in the air.

[1834] And then when they landed their butthole picked up a ton of sand from the pit and then as they exited the pit there were there was sand falling out of their butthole and you saw the whole thing it was just on television and i was like i was screaming with excitement i had videoed it and i sent it immediately to you and nay and i just couldn't believe i thought this lucky that i saw something like that yeah god it's like it's energizing very sim that you would have caught that yeah because the the people it's split and then it acted as a little shovel Sure.

[1835] So what did you remember?

[1836] I think it's clear.

[1837] Oh, it's obvious.

[1838] Okay.

[1839] I don't remember it, though.

[1840] I'll show it to you.

[1841] I'll find it.

[1842] Okay.

[1843] It'll take me all day, but it's worth doing.

[1844] It's an amazing.

[1845] It's amazing.

[1846] But often also, they're, and you can Google these, there are a lot of times the athletes are so excited during the medal ceremony that they have erections.

[1847] This is another thing.

[1848] There's been a lot of famous erections at the metal ceremonies.

[1849] I don't think it's because they're so excited.

[1850] It's like a chemical, it's like adrenaline and stuff.

[1851] It's not that they're just so happy.

[1852] They got a boner.

[1853] Well, I mean, we're using, what are we saying?

[1854] You're saying chemical.

[1855] I'm saying, I'm just giving that a name, which is excited or aroused.

[1856] They're so aroused from the circumstance.

[1857] I mean, I guess, I guess what I'm saying, well, maybe you're saying this, too.

[1858] I don't think it's like.

[1859] They're not horny.

[1860] Right.

[1861] I wasn't saying.

[1862] Oh, no, no, no, no, no, no, no. It's involuntary.

[1863] I think it's so much excitement.

[1864] I compare it and I have in the past, too.

[1865] It's like when I got my father.

[1866] tricked me. He said, if you clean the garage, I'll take you up to Anderson's motorsports so you can look at sprees.

[1867] That's a moped.

[1868] Sure.

[1869] That I wanted really bad.

[1870] Yeah.

[1871] The problem was just clean the garage just to go look at them, which I was willing to do.

[1872] How old were you?

[1873] I was 11 or 12.

[1874] I went out in the garage to clean it so I could just go look and there was a fucking spree sitting in the garage.

[1875] That's really sweet.

[1876] It was so sweet and such a good prank.

[1877] I don't like pranks, but I like that.

[1878] That was a great prank.

[1879] And I got on it and I wrote it around my dad's neighborhood.

[1880] And I was hard as a rock.

[1881] I remember being hard as a rock where I was like, it was hurting in my jeans while I was riding.

[1882] I was like, this is inconvenient.

[1883] I just want to ride this thing.

[1884] But that's what I, so I have some experience with it.

[1885] So I think that's what's happening with it.

[1886] Also remember, these athletes are young.

[1887] They're not much older than I was when I was riding my spree with a boner around the dad's neighborhood.

[1888] No, they're older than that.

[1889] Well, some of them are like 18, 19 standing on that podium.

[1890] them, they have got all the hormones.

[1891] It is.

[1892] I think it's just a hormonal dump.

[1893] Like, there's so much going on.

[1894] And they become a wreck, visibly erect.

[1895] And that's always fun for me and Nate.

[1896] And I thought you, but I guess not.

[1897] I don't know.

[1898] I don't want to say it's not.

[1899] Okay.

[1900] I just, I don't remember.

[1901] I will say last Olympics in Tokyo, COVID Olympics.

[1902] Penises didn't come out to play as much.

[1903] It was the worst.

[1904] Sorry.

[1905] It was the worst Olympics.

[1906] Like, and it's not Tokyo.

[1907] It's called it.

[1908] It's definitely COVID's fault.

[1909] And I wasn't as into it, which is why this year is exciting, because I feel everyone's into it again.

[1910] It's a makeup, yep.

[1911] Yeah, people are happy.

[1912] They're talking about it.

[1913] They're excited.

[1914] And there's hope in the universe.

[1915] Yep.

[1916] It is really cool.

[1917] It hit me. I was watching the opening ceremony and the announcers are, they're laying it on pretty thick, but it was working for me. They're like, this is the neatest thing we really do.

[1918] This is the only time we all come together.

[1919] most everyone come together to do this together it's really cool it is back to the penises so the so there's those ones i listed the metal ceremonies and stuff but then there's it's generally in the track and field sometimes you'll get an incredible situation where the penis is flopping from one side of the singlet to the other yeah in a really dramatic fashion dramatic and you can't help but notice yeah and so what i'll do is i'll video that and i'll send that over to the chain and it's just so exciting yeah okay so anyways that's my only complaint so far because there's not been any i haven't seen a single penis i don't know what's going on you haven't been watching the sports that often showcase them i don't think they've been up yet right so that's table tennis you don't get any penis play oh but here's one funny thing this is one thing i wrote down i'm watching gymnastics with the girls and um we're watching the men on the pommel horse yeah It's going back and forth.

[1920] And like, Delta says something vaguely.

[1921] I know what she's getting at.

[1922] She's like, oh, my God, it's so close.

[1923] Like, they're so close.

[1924] I said, you have to hitting their penises, right?

[1925] And she's like, yes.

[1926] And we were saying, what if the event was about scaring your penis?

[1927] And then every time they were crossing, we were going, ah, ah, ah, ah, ah, ah.

[1928] And we called it the penis trauma event.

[1929] Wow.

[1930] Because all you're doing is you're just seeing how close you can get.

[1931] Do you ever wonder about how deep your obsession is with them?

[1932] With the penis or?

[1933] Yeah, the penis.

[1934] Not your kids.

[1935] Oh, no. Let's be clear here.

[1936] What are we talking about?

[1937] The male penis.

[1938] I think you over, you.

[1939] Over index?

[1940] Now's my turn to say over index.

[1941] In, um.

[1942] You under index and saying over index.

[1943] I do.

[1944] That's right.

[1945] Wow.

[1946] In excitement over it.

[1947] I don't know.

[1948] Rob, do you love the male penis?

[1949] Not as much as you.

[1950] Okay.

[1951] I've never heard Rob ever.

[1952] like, speak about it in the way that you do.

[1953] I know, but we also have way different personalities.

[1954] And even if he felt that way, he wouldn't probably be prone to share it.

[1955] I mean, I don't know.

[1956] I've been around a lot of men with a lot of different personalities.

[1957] I do think you over index.

[1958] Probably.

[1959] I love seeing the penis in film and television.

[1960] Do you ever wonder, like, why?

[1961] I think it's so funny.

[1962] Yeah.

[1963] It's so silly.

[1964] You think it looks funny.

[1965] It does.

[1966] It's ridiculous.

[1967] That the fact that this is where it's at, It's right sticking out of the front of your legs that are moving so much.

[1968] It's a kind of a crazy locale.

[1969] It is a weird location.

[1970] And it's a ridiculous appendage.

[1971] I know.

[1972] But what size is this thing?

[1973] You know, changes shape and size.

[1974] It bounces sometimes.

[1975] It's stiff as a board sometimes.

[1976] But where would you rather have it?

[1977] Oh, the penis?

[1978] Yeah.

[1979] Like where's a better?

[1980] Armpet, maybe.

[1981] Okay, out of 10, so we'll say I'm a 10.

[1982] Where do you think you're at on this?

[1983] Like, when you're watching Richie's, gemstone they got the incredible scene with the penises behind his face the whole time how much are you enjoying that i mean like a six a six okay i think it's fun i think in that scene it's funny yeah yeah and what about a penis bouncing around while someone's trying to sprint it's just like getting in it the way it's a six too okay it's a six yeah no but you're asking i think an even deeper question like i'm just curious what is it about or yeah like i think it's like i closeted homosexuality Oh, I don't know where you're going with this.

[1984] No, I mean, look, it's the question we ask every single fucking person who comes in here.

[1985] Like, why are you the way you are?

[1986] Yeah.

[1987] If a guest sat here and, like, spoke about the penis as much as you do, you might be like, huh.

[1988] Okay, so I wonder, like, you've had some negative penis interaction.

[1989] So I wonder if.

[1990] Whoa, yo, if you think it's trauma -based.

[1991] Well, I mean, it might be.

[1992] But I've had guests on that we're equally interested in the penis.

[1993] Rob McElhenney?

[1994] Sure.

[1995] I'm not, I don't want to.

[1996] And so when they did it, I was like, yeah, of course.

[1997] So because of my own position on it, I wasn't even curious why they, because you as normally.

[1998] No, he did not.

[1999] It's not the same.

[2000] This was even a step further, if you recall.

[2001] What?

[2002] He said like he'd want to see if he could.

[2003] Rob probably remembers it.

[2004] Why did you?

[2005] Okay.

[2006] You keep doing, I know we're talking about the male penis, so I understand.

[2007] But it feels a little isolating that it's.

[2008] very Rob focused.

[2009] Well, because he's the other boy in the room.

[2010] And so what you're asking me is, like, why this unique obsession with a penis if I'm a straight guy?

[2011] I mean, you're adding straight guy.

[2012] That says nothing to do with my question.

[2013] My question is about you, Dax.

[2014] And just like I'm obsessed with shopping.

[2015] I know, but let's take this most recent one that made you point that out.

[2016] Okay.

[2017] So I think it's more memorable for a guy to hear that a guy said he would, like, like to play with the penis to see if he could get it hard, which is something Robb said.

[2018] I was like, oh, wow, that's so that's beyond.

[2019] Rob McLehany, not Rob Hollis.

[2020] Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

[2021] I remember that now.

[2022] Right.

[2023] And so I don't, I don't think as a woman you might even log that in your memory.

[2024] Well, I actually think that's wrong.

[2025] I think women very much are aware when men are talking about sex and penises because it often trick, you know, you're then hyper aware of how sexual that person is.

[2026] Sure, sure, sure.

[2027] Yeah, I think that's a, those are two different conversations.

[2028] Yes.

[2029] for their safety, they should pay attention.

[2030] I'm not even think should.

[2031] I'm just saying naturally.

[2032] Do you remember Rob saying that, though?

[2033] My hunch was that you didn't.

[2034] I don't remember that.

[2035] But I think for Rob and I, because of the implicit implications, is like, oh, wow.

[2036] So, okay, that's really memorable.

[2037] I don't think that's as memorable.

[2038] This is, like, sort of hard to explain, but it's kind of like when partners at a law firm go golfing and, like, the woman is there.

[2039] And it's like, yeah, the men all do.

[2040] this thing and they have this camaraderie because they're all men, it makes it weird.

[2041] Well, that's a much bigger and very exciting conversation.

[2042] Well, we can get there or we should could stick to the Olympics.

[2043] I don't know.

[2044] I don't know.

[2045] But I just, this sometimes happens when we're talking about gendered stuff.

[2046] Yeah.

[2047] Well, because I'm, you're asking me, you're pointing out that it's unique or, well, won't use the word weird, but weird.

[2048] Not weird.

[2049] I'm just curious.

[2050] unique over -indexing, and I have an opportunity to check in, am I over -indexing, or is this every boy is obsessed with penises?

[2051] Like, I have a control group in the room.

[2052] So it's like before I try to theorize on whether I am way over -indexing, I want to find out maybe I'm not.

[2053] You know, so that's a real natural check -in for me. Like, I don't know, Rob, do you have the exact same level?

[2054] Well, but I know what I've been exposed to as a woman.

[2055] And I know where people index, whether they're thinking of it or not is not even really what I'm asking.

[2056] Like, you are very, like, open about it.

[2057] Yeah.

[2058] You love talking about it.

[2059] It's funny and it's fun.

[2060] It's so funny.

[2061] I find it funny, too.

[2062] Yeah.

[2063] But I put a ton of penis in my first movie.

[2064] Yeah, you love penises.

[2065] Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[2066] So even whether Rob secretly thinks it or not is not really what I'm asking.

[2067] Like, in my life, you over index.

[2068] And I'm curious, you know, I'm just curious if it is trauma.

[2069] Well, I don't think it is.

[2070] But maybe it is, how would I know?

[2071] Yeah, that's true.

[2072] My point is I was, I had an opportunity.

[2073] And to me, it was pointed out.

[2074] So I had an opportunity to go like, oh, I think all boys do.

[2075] Right?

[2076] And they're just not talking about it.

[2077] Yeah.

[2078] And then I asked Rob, and he's like, no, I'm not.

[2079] I'm a sick.

[2080] So I'm like, okay, so I am unique.

[2081] So now I'm on the investigative path of why.

[2082] I want to point out that in Brothers Justice, there's a car chasing.

[2083] Yeah.

[2084] And you always see inserts in movies during car chasing of shifting and the clutch pedal and the shifter and the gas and the brake and all these inserts.

[2085] And I kept putting in how bad the penis and testicles were shaking during this really violent car chasing.

[2086] Which is funny.

[2087] Because, you know, that's part of the story, too.

[2088] But do you see what I'm saying?

[2089] Because nobody else has done it, which proves that you over -index.

[2090] Yeah, I felt very original.

[2091] Yeah, it is.

[2092] It's original.

[2093] It's not, it's not bad.

[2094] I just have a curiosity around your curiosity.

[2095] Yeah, I just think they're super funny and the ridiculous -looking.

[2096] I think the answer is I'm a perv.

[2097] I think if I had to just sum it all up, I think I'm a perv.

[2098] I think I'm a perv too because I, And my book and my most recent book that I can't stop talking about, all fours.

[2099] All fours.

[2100] And as much, by the way, so many comments are, what's the name of the book, Ronica's reading?

[2101] And I'm thinking, like, I even remember it, which is.

[2102] I say it a lot.

[2103] You say it so much.

[2104] And it's such a memorable title, all fours.

[2105] Yes, it is.

[2106] All fours, there's a part that I find sexy that I've learned a lot of people don't.

[2107] Okay.

[2108] And so I, then, and I was like, I'm a perf.

[2109] Sure, sure, sure, sure.

[2110] So it's just interesting.

[2111] Yeah.

[2112] So if I were to inquire to you, what's your explanation of that?

[2113] I think I had some and I don't know about it.

[2114] No. It could have been, you know, I mean, I don't know.

[2115] I don't care.

[2116] I mean, I'm not like going to go investigate.

[2117] But I have been told that I was, what was the word used?

[2118] Like kind of overly sexual as a kid.

[2119] By who?

[2120] Your parents told you this?

[2121] A family member.

[2122] I won't say who.

[2123] Who was around a lot.

[2124] A woman.

[2125] And they, and she said you were over sexual.

[2126] As a kid.

[2127] Anyway, all to say, uh, I guess I'm a purve too and I don't really know where it's from.

[2128] Could be trauma.

[2129] I think it's just genetic.

[2130] Could be.

[2131] Well, it's definitely not genetic.

[2132] We don't know.

[2133] I do not.

[2134] There's no telling what Nirmie's responding to when she reads all fours.

[2135] And she's just not going to tell you or a choke.

[2136] So we just don't know.

[2137] That's all I'm saying.

[2138] My mom's a perv.

[2139] I mean, I think my dad was a perv.

[2140] I come by it very honestly.

[2141] But they talked about it.

[2142] Yeah, they're perves.

[2143] They own it.

[2144] But they were also both victims of a trauma.

[2145] Yeah, yeah.

[2146] So I don't, fuck.

[2147] I don't know.

[2148] I just don't know.

[2149] Yeah.

[2150] Well, yeah, because when I was at dinner with two friends, a man and a woman, and this woman had read the book.

[2151] And I was basically...

[2152] Seeing what part you like.

[2153] Yeah.

[2154] And it wasn't well received.

[2155] Yeah.

[2156] They didn't think it was hot.

[2157] It's a unique kind of shame that immediately burbles up, right?

[2158] Because you can have total conviction in it.

[2159] And then when you do say something and that people are like grossed out, it's powerful.

[2160] It's a powerful.

[2161] It's a powerful.

[2162] It just teaches you like, oh, oh, this isn't universal.

[2163] No. And it's really a no -no.

[2164] Like, you're a very naughty person.

[2165] if you like these certain things.

[2166] Because we had this conversation before, I don't even know if I can proceed with my list of things I liked about the Olympics.

[2167] Oh, my God.

[2168] Are they all about penises?

[2169] They're not.

[2170] They're not.

[2171] They're not.

[2172] Okay.

[2173] They're all about bodies.

[2174] Well, a lot of it.

[2175] I mean, isn't that part of what the is great about the Olympics?

[2176] You're seeing these bodies that only exist.

[2177] It is true.

[2178] It's such a, that's part of the appeals.

[2179] Like, the human form can be like that.

[2180] It is shocking.

[2181] I agree.

[2182] It's both like what the human can accomplish.

[2183] which is one thing, but then also how they look.

[2184] It's just, it's like a fine line about objectification.

[2185] Right, and that's why I was focusing on the penises, because I think it's a lot better if I'm objectifying men.

[2186] Yes, I would.

[2187] And I'm not even going to specify about whose buns they are.

[2188] I'm just going to say there are, I have seen some buns.

[2189] It just defies what we know about buns.

[2190] I'm not a butt girl.

[2191] Right.

[2192] So, what are you?

[2193] I don't know.

[2194] Personality.

[2195] I bet you are but that's not fun for the Olympics oh for the Olympics I'm a prowess I like to see people defying gravity not their buns defying gravity their their skills and so there's no body part that's like turning your head seeing the F like seeing someone's lifelong work come to fruition oh I love it I do too the body is not as much because they are so specific that's part of my great fast but i don't i almost it becomes white noise i understand that's not the case for me actually i looked at some bodies and i was like ew i'll cut that okay what ones i mean they were like nice bodies but i was like oh i hate bodies oh okay you should keep that that's interesting no i'm cutting it because it's that's rude like it's rude these are people no you're not saying they have bad bodies you're saying you think bodies are gross.

[2196] I thought bodies were gross for a second.

[2197] Oh, okay.

[2198] But I'm also on my period.

[2199] Yeah, so we can't.

[2200] You're a untrustworthy narrator.

[2201] And also, bodies are beautiful and gross.

[2202] Like, it is crazy that I'm bleeding right now.

[2203] Don't look at Rob right now.

[2204] I didn't.

[2205] Okay, I'm just telling you.

[2206] I'm talking about my blood.

[2207] I only look at Rob, when I'm talking about penis.

[2208] Or blood.

[2209] No, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no. I'm just saying.

[2210] Okay, so I understand not getting horny for the bodies.

[2211] Sometimes I do.

[2212] Okay.

[2213] It's hard to pin you down.

[2214] I know.

[2215] I'm all over the place.

[2216] And but do you not, and I know I've already covered this before, so bear with me, how different each event makes the body in a very predictable way.

[2217] It is fast.

[2218] I find that so fascinating.

[2219] It is.

[2220] All of the swimmers, if you line up all the swimmers and have them turn around so you can't see them.

[2221] You can't tell who's who.

[2222] They all have the exact same body.

[2223] Upside down triangle.

[2224] Yes.

[2225] Let me start by something positive.

[2226] Beach volleyball is so awesome.

[2227] Like, it really, to me, we've had many guests on here.

[2228] You know, Natalie Portman talking about soccer.

[2229] And, you know, people don't watch women's sports.

[2230] Now, what's the chicken and the egg of that?

[2231] They don't watch women's sports in the U .S. Is it because they don't get given a primetime slot?

[2232] Is that they don't get the ad campaign?

[2233] All I can say is, I'm watching the women's two -on -two beach volleyball.

[2234] And I'm like, this is easily as exciting as NFL football.

[2235] It's so crazy how fucking good they are.

[2236] Yeah.

[2237] I mean, especially if you played volleyball at all.

[2238] Right.

[2239] They're doing the impossible.

[2240] Yeah, that's cool.

[2241] For hours.

[2242] Oh, and it hurts on sand.

[2243] It's so athletic and impressive.

[2244] Yeah.

[2245] And then I was thinking, yeah, and then women's gymnastics.

[2246] It's better than the men's just gymnastics.

[2247] For me, yeah, it's riveting.

[2248] And I was like, we can love women competing.

[2249] Ish, though.

[2250] I think that actually goes to show that a lot of it is cultural because we do like it at the Olympics.

[2251] We love watching women's gymnastics.

[2252] It's probably one of the top.

[2253] It's definitely one of the top.

[2254] That in track and field, yeah.

[2255] Exactly.

[2256] And probably swimming, you know.

[2257] But we only watch gymnastics at the Olympics.

[2258] There are gymnastics competitions all year long, worlds, national, so much.

[2259] It's not even, we don't know about it unless you're, like, really invested in gymnastics.

[2260] So part of that is it doesn't get talked about very much in a public way.

[2261] But Simone has brought a lot of viewers.

[2262] Oh, yeah.

[2263] And by the way, why do we watch swimming?

[2264] We didn't watch swimming 20 years ago in the Olympics.

[2265] We watched it because of Michael Phelps.

[2266] Like, why do everyone start watching golfing because of Tiger Woods?

[2267] Like, these superstars make the sports.

[2268] Yeah.

[2269] And Simone Biles makes gymnastics.

[2270] I know.

[2271] But I also, like, that's so much pressure.

[2272] Yes, it is.

[2273] Okay.

[2274] Okay, so, this is just the luck of, this is the luck of whatever, two synchronized divers.

[2275] I don't know if you watched any synchronized diving.

[2276] Yeah, I did.

[2277] Do you know that the team of them's called Cook and Bacon?

[2278] Yeah, I loved that.

[2279] Fucking Cook and Bacon.

[2280] Yeah, the U .S. team.

[2281] What could be better?

[2282] Now, it sucks on the screen.

[2283] They have to put it alphabetical, so it says bacon and cook.

[2284] Yeah.

[2285] But cooking bacon, like they should open up a car dealership or a barbecue restaurant or something.

[2286] And their family, you see them in the audience.

[2287] They got their cooking bacon shirts on.

[2288] So cute.

[2289] Did you see that they're putting heart rate monitors on the parents in the audience?

[2290] Yes.

[2291] This was incredible.

[2292] One in particular, Hesley Rivera, the 16 -year -old.

[2293] Yeah, the youngest on the gymnastics team.

[2294] They have a heart rate monitor on her father.

[2295] And during the whole routine, his heart rate is above 160 when she went to do her landing.

[2296] His heart rate was 181.

[2297] Do you know how, like, if you sprinted for four minutes, you probably wouldn't hit 181.

[2298] Oh, my God.

[2299] Sitting there.

[2300] Yeah, of course.

[2301] Can you imagine?

[2302] 181.

[2303] I'm surprised these parents aren't having heart attacks in the audience.

[2304] It actually scared me when I saw that because I was like, this is not good.

[2305] They should be taking a beta blocker to watch their kids.

[2306] They really should hand those out to the parents.

[2307] Free tip.

[2308] God, can you imagine, though?

[2309] That seems so awful.

[2310] To watch your child.

[2311] Yeah.

[2312] Especially 16, man. It's so hard.

[2313] But 16, at least, this is how I would rationalize it.

[2314] 16, she wants to do this again.

[2315] She could do it again.

[2316] Yeah.

[2317] But if it's like your last Olympics and you're the parent.

[2318] Yeah.

[2319] Oh.

[2320] Stressful.

[2321] So stressful.

[2322] It was great, though, to see Simone with her hair done obviously by her mother and her mother in the audience.

[2323] And that was heartwarming.

[2324] Thank God.

[2325] She got to do her hair.

[2326] You don't like this one.

[2327] I don't think.

[2328] These are fun things that pop up.

[2329] A black female judo athlete competing, and her name was white boy.

[2330] Yeah.

[2331] I just think that's so great.

[2332] And this is the kind of thing that just pops up when you're watching the Olympics.

[2333] Things pop up all over the place.

[2334] They do.

[2335] There's so many names like cooking bacon and a black woman named White Boy.

[2336] Is it pronounced like that?

[2337] Are you sure?

[2338] Yeah.

[2339] The announcers are saying White Boy.

[2340] Wow.

[2341] That was her last name was White Boy.

[2342] Yeah.

[2343] which is just it's really something yeah you don't come across that a lot now last thing I wrote down and this has nothing really do with the Olympics but it continues to crack me up that my kids will like they scream if I go through commercials they want the commercials they insist on commercials they're almost only watching it for commercials they love commercials oh because they didn't grow up being forced to watch them and they love commercials.

[2344] That is so odd.

[2345] It drives me inside.

[2346] I'm like, guys, we can't possibly stop on these are local.

[2347] Like, I'll try to delineate why these aren't worth them watching.

[2348] They do not want to miss the commercials.

[2349] And I was thinking just how subjective everything is.

[2350] Like, if you grew up and you had to watch commercials, you don't want to watch them.

[2351] If you grew up in a time where you don't watch commercials, they just stream everything.

[2352] They are so interested in it.

[2353] And heaven forbid, because they're showing wicked commercials.

[2354] Oh, yeah.

[2355] Oh, my God.

[2356] I made the mistake of like Blown through five, ten seconds of that commercial, and they lost it.

[2357] Speaking of commercials, there was a commercial, we're not trying to be negative here.

[2358] So I won't say what the commercial was.

[2359] Hmm, it's going to be hard to talk about what I was saying.

[2360] Yeah.

[2361] But it was a commercial that looked very high quality.

[2362] So I had a guess immediately as to what the brand was, which I was correct about.

[2363] Okay.

[2364] And it was an Olympic commercial, and it had all these athletes.

[2365] Mm -hmm.

[2366] but the message was so odd to me I know what you're saying and did it remind you of that Cadillac commercial?

[2367] What's the Cadillac commercial that was kind of infamously it was the wrong time, wrong place was that guy walking through his house going like, yeah, in France they take off 12 weeks a year and he's basically bragging about how we work harder in the US and he has a Cadillac and he's got a mansion yeah you might not make it every soccer game It was a real embracing of, like, workaholic culture.

[2368] Okay, see, I don't even know it.

[2369] It was like, it was like the Pepsi and the riots, you know that.

[2370] I don't know this either.

[2371] Oh, my God.

[2372] During BLM, they had like, it was like protesters and there were cops and they shared a Pepsi and people were like, oh my God.

[2373] You don't remember that?

[2374] God, no. They parodied it on SNL.

[2375] Oh, that's funny.

[2376] Yeah, so there's, you know, these people take a lot of swings.

[2377] This one.

[2378] So I like it, though, because it's the truth.

[2379] It's wrong time, wrong place.

[2380] It's the truth, though.

[2381] You can't.

[2382] It is not.

[2383] It is not.

[2384] It is the truth.

[2385] No, it's not.

[2386] To say that you have to be a bad person to win is not the truth.

[2387] They weren't saying they were a bad.

[2388] The question is, am I a bad person because I am this way.

[2389] Because I have no empathy.

[2390] Selfish.

[2391] That's not true.

[2392] No, it's not.

[2393] I've won things.

[2394] But they were showing individual things.

[2395] So listen, really quick, for a sprinter.

[2396] You can't want your, to be empathetic to your opponent would be to hope that they win for them.

[2397] No. No, it's not.

[2398] You can have empathy.

[2399] You can know.

[2400] In fact, you do know.

[2401] You're the only people who knows what it's like to be in that person's position.

[2402] You do have empathy.

[2403] It doesn't mean you're going to let them win.

[2404] But there is a reality to zero some contest that I think it's just pageantry to deny, which is they want everyone else to lose.

[2405] That is the facts.

[2406] They're not entering that lineup without the wish that everyone next to them loses.

[2407] So the question is, does that make me a bad person?

[2408] Yeah, that doesn't make you a bad person.

[2409] These other things do.

[2410] Having no empathy being extremely self.

[2411] I honestly, I thought it was a political ad.

[2412] Oh, okay.

[2413] Until the end.

[2414] When I saw the brand, and I was like, this is for them especially who.

[2415] who they're playing by both sides.

[2416] They're the, I think they are the master of the ad.

[2417] Them and apple, yeah.

[2418] They're so good.

[2419] They do it perfectly every time.

[2420] I could not believe this is what they were putting out right now.

[2421] I kind of dug it.

[2422] I'm sorry.

[2423] I was like, oh yeah, they're attempting to tell the truth, which is this endeavor winning.

[2424] It's not for everyone.

[2425] You have to be entirely selfish.

[2426] and you have to try to beat everyone.

[2427] That's what it is.

[2428] Trying to beat everyone.

[2429] It's fraudulent to pretend that's not what you're doing.

[2430] Or dishonest.

[2431] No. Mm -mm -mm.

[2432] Not now.

[2433] No. Maybe in 2028 they could do that ad.

[2434] I'm shocked.

[2435] I am shocked.

[2436] That this got through in this moment.

[2437] Mm -hmm.

[2438] Well, this is my – like, the person who epitomizes all that stuff is trying to win.

[2439] And for us to say – Well, but you made it about that.

[2440] How can anyone – this is what's on – See, I wasn't – that didn't cross my mind at all.

[2441] Most people right now, a lot of people, I don't know the percentage.

[2442] Right.

[2443] Many people in America are thinking about an election.

[2444] It's just happening around us all the time.

[2445] So that's at the forefront of the American.

[2446] American zeit guys right now.

[2447] And so this is hard to not.

[2448] For me, it was hard to not separate.

[2449] Yeah, for you.

[2450] Just for me. Maybe no one else put two and two again.

[2451] When I was watching the Olympics, I wasn't thinking at all about the election.

[2452] I just think it's such a bad message to tell people that these qualities equal being a winner.

[2453] I just don't like it at all.

[2454] And I love being a winner.

[2455] I love winning.

[2456] And I, I, I, and it is cutthroat.

[2457] And you do have to do a lot of things.

[2458] And you have to want everyone else to lose.

[2459] Yeah.

[2460] Yeah, that's wanting.

[2461] So that's, I think that's the core of what's being asked, which is, if I want everyone else to lose, does that make me a bad person?

[2462] No, that doesn't.

[2463] But that's not what, that wasn't, that wasn't the question.

[2464] That's what I took from it.

[2465] And you took, it was vaguely political.

[2466] I don't think this company meant it to be political.

[2467] Yeah.

[2468] I think it was a mistake and timing that it ended up being, to me, it ended up reading political.

[2469] I'll tell you this, minimally, it got both of ours attention.

[2470] And we're talking about it.

[2471] Yeah, they're great at that.

[2472] You're a marketing major.

[2473] PR.

[2474] Okay, sorry.

[2475] I did ask Callie, who is in marketing.

[2476] What'd she say?

[2477] She said she needed to think about it.

[2478] Okay, cool.

[2479] Yeah.

[2480] So she wasn't like.

[2481] No knee jerk from her.

[2482] No, she wasn't like, yeah, you're right.

[2483] Yeah.

[2484] But, and she wasn't like.

[2485] I also like it because I love the narrator.

[2486] Yeah.

[2487] Willem.

[2488] That's what I thought.

[2489] I was like, is it Willem Defoe?

[2490] Yeah.

[2491] And he put such a cool spin on it, I thought.

[2492] He's acting like a little devil.

[2493] I do love him.

[2494] Friend of the pot, go check out Willem's episode of Armchair Expert.

[2495] How about this, though?

[2496] They've taken big swings like this in the past.

[2497] I mean, at the height of tigers, many public personal disasters.

[2498] Yeah.

[2499] He won the Masters.

[2500] And the ad was, winning solves everything.

[2501] Oof.

[2502] They are, I mean, look, they're cheeky.

[2503] No, they're not, though, because they're, They also have had perfectly executed female empowerment campaign, like so many.

[2504] Kaepernat support.

[2505] Yeah, exactly.

[2506] Yeah.

[2507] I think.

[2508] I like that about them.

[2509] And they're on the edge.

[2510] That's what I like, too.

[2511] I don't think they meant this to sound like they're talking about our election.

[2512] I just, I'm surprised.

[2513] Nobody said, huh, I wonder if this message is a little bit weird right now.

[2514] Yeah.

[2515] Well, I did that on my own interest.

[2516] But I thought it worked in my advantage, which is, remember, race to 270 came out right during the election.

[2517] Yeah.

[2518] And 270 was just arbitrarily the weight.

[2519] Well, it wasn't even arbitrary.

[2520] It was 30 pounds.

[2521] Exactly in the middle of their two weights.

[2522] Yeah.

[2523] And so race to 270 and then all of a sudden was like, oh, this looks like it's a podcast about an election.

[2524] Yeah.

[2525] Anyway, well, all this is a big ding, ding, ding, because this is from Marion Jones.

[2526] It's so perfect.

[2527] I'm so glad we watch those shows because I'm enjoying Simone so much, knowing her story now.

[2528] I think if you learn about Sunni Lee, you'll love her too.

[2529] Yeah.

[2530] I like her.

[2531] And she's had all these like crazy kidney issues this past like year and she's back.

[2532] And it's, yeah, she's awesome.

[2533] And she has had all these stalkers.

[2534] Oh my Jesus.

[2535] I know.

[2536] I know.

[2537] Anyway.

[2538] Where did you learn all your SUNY Lee?

[2539] I've been, I've been really, I've been in, I've been in the world lately.

[2540] I also, there's a dot called Golden.

[2541] It was after the.

[2542] last Olympics, I think.

[2543] This is the one that Phelps made?

[2544] No, no. This is about gymnastics.

[2545] Oh, okay.

[2546] And it was following some of the women who were going for gold.

[2547] They were trying to get, you know, picked for the team last time.

[2548] Anyway, Sunni was in that, is in that dock.

[2549] So you do get to learn a lot about her, which is cool because, you know, she won.

[2550] They're all inspirational.

[2551] Okay, Marion.

[2552] Okay, Marion.

[2553] Marion, I loved her.

[2554] I loved her.

[2555] I cannot believe she went to jail for that.

[2556] No, that's bonkers to me. Obviously, you should be able to kick someone out of a sport.

[2557] Yeah.

[2558] Well, I have medals away.

[2559] Yeah, I mean, I have an opinion no one likes about that.

[2560] So it's, it's, I see both sides of it big time.

[2561] If I have a daughter and she's competing, I want it to be fair for her.

[2562] Yeah.

[2563] Okay, that's one opinion I have.

[2564] We're full of contradictions.

[2565] Yep.

[2566] Another one is like you're an actor.

[2567] You get filler to stay fresh to extend your career.

[2568] You do like anything possible.

[2569] Every single domain does everything possible that's available to them.

[2570] And it also doesn't make you superhuman.

[2571] It's not like V on the boys, right?

[2572] It just like.

[2573] But it does change.

[2574] It enhances your performance.

[2575] It pits you in the optimal range for all these things.

[2576] and you know some people are in the optimal range genetically they hit the lottery some don't you know and it's just i don't know it's a little you know you can get your eyes fixed for something you can do you can do a lot of stuff and then we just draw lines and i understand that they're there but yeah i mean the lines make sense to me but i just have a lot of compassion i see how it happened right like i see how when you're a young performer athlete all you're focused on is that that is your only job, it is hyper -focused, and you are paying everyone else to pay attention to every other thing, and you're trusting that what you are getting is okay, right?

[2577] And a lot of people would probably rightly so say, well, that's stupid.

[2578] Like, you're not paying attention to your life.

[2579] You're not in charge of your life.

[2580] Because I do that often with money.

[2581] Oh, yeah, yeah, of course.

[2582] You know, I because I find that very overwhelming.

[2583] Yeah.

[2584] I hire an expert.

[2585] who can handle it for me. What's the point of hiring the expert, if not to turn that over to them?

[2586] And not have to think about it anymore.

[2587] Sorry, I'm going to take one more run at this.

[2588] I just want one more example.

[2589] So many musicians who auditioned for symphony orchestras take propanol so that they don't get too nervous to perform.

[2590] Now, you can see where some musician might go like, but I don't want to take a beta blocker.

[2591] And so because I don't want to and you get to, that's cheating.

[2592] But I don't think that's cheating.

[2593] Yeah.

[2594] Yeah, I think there's a difference in that nerves can lower your ability, but enhancing your ability is the problem.

[2595] Well, but if you take away the nerves of an audition, that is an advantage.

[2596] Well, yeah, but everyone can do that.

[2597] I know.

[2598] And everyone can take.

[2599] Well, they can.

[2600] Well, they could, I'm saying, just like you could take.

[2601] That's the point is that they haven't made it illegal for artists, musicians, performers to take a beta blocker to do better at their job.

[2602] to get through an audition.

[2603] It's do better at their job, but it's to perform at their personal peak, right?

[2604] And with these performance -enhancing drugs, they provide extra.

[2605] It's not just you perform at your peak.

[2606] It's your peak with more, which is the difference.

[2607] Yeah, I wish I knew more about it.

[2608] Because I don't think Jordan couldn't have been better if he was on PDs.

[2609] And no one on his team could have taken PDs.

[2610] to be as good as Jordan.

[2611] Yeah, it's, I think certain sports is different.

[2612] Yeah, yeah.

[2613] Well, bodybuilding is very clear.

[2614] You have to do it.

[2615] How about that in bodybuilding, though, where everyone just agrees, like, yeah, if I'm going to pursue this, obviously, I have to do a ton of different exogenous hormones.

[2616] We all agree to that, and now we go compete.

[2617] That's fine, obviously, right?

[2618] I guess it's the issue is, like, people that, yeah, they don't want to do it, nor should they have to do it to be competitive.

[2619] I don't know.

[2620] Well, it's like the whole point is to see who's the, the, the best like that's the point and it starts to get very complicated when people are enhancing their abilities and it's funny because if everyone just did it all then you'd be back to zero basically you'd be back to where everyone started from yeah so in one of the gymnastics podcast i was listening to i forgot that in 2000 the all -around gymnast who won also got her metal revoked because she was on cold medicine.

[2621] Yeah.

[2622] Sudafed.

[2623] Yeah.

[2624] That at least is a stimulant.

[2625] But they, I mean.

[2626] As opposed to weed.

[2627] Well, yeah.

[2628] Again, like, crazy.

[2629] It's so dumb.

[2630] But she got her gold medal taken away for cold medicine.

[2631] And like most of the other, even gymnasts, were like, no. Yeah.

[2632] Like, that did not make her win.

[2633] Right.

[2634] Yeah, like what Simone Biles can do.

[2635] You can't take cold medicine and do it.

[2636] Right.

[2637] If anything, it makes you fog.

[2638] You could give all.

[2639] of her competitors, every known PED, and they wouldn't do what she does.

[2640] No, they can't, no. Anyway, okay.

[2641] Now, the doc on Victor Conte and Balco.

[2642] Yes, the 30 for 30, right?

[2643] No, it's a untold.

[2644] Oh, right.

[2645] Untold Hall of Shame is what it's called.

[2646] Yeah.

[2647] Untold was a great series.

[2648] So good.

[2649] I looked up a list of stripped Olympic medals.

[2650] There's a lot.

[2651] Oh, really?

[2652] Yeah.

[2653] Let's see.

[2654] From November 1905 to December 2022, a total of 159 medals have been stripped.

[2655] So now maybe more, maybe.

[2656] With nine medals declared vacant rather than being reallocated after being stripped.

[2657] The vast majority of these have occurred since 2000 due to improved drug testing methods, with only 20 strip medals for pre -2000 editions of the Olympic Games.

[2658] I got to get off this subject.

[2659] But the other tricky thing, and I brought it up in the interview, is you could dope all year long and just stop a few months before and pass.

[2660] So given that that - Well, she was, remember?

[2661] She's never tested positive.

[2662] Right.

[2663] Yes.

[2664] And I can't remember from that doc, whether it was he had found a substance at work that they just weren't testing for.

[2665] I don't know what the whole thing was.

[2666] Like, she said that the thing she was on when he slid it across the desk.

[2667] She knew she had been taking it.

[2668] Yep, and that that was illegal, even though it hadn't triggered any of the tests.

[2669] But maybe they stopped giving it to her in time.

[2670] Because she was just saying, I know I'd seen it before.

[2671] Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[2672] Yeah.

[2673] But I'm just, I'm more saying like, I guess what I'm proposing is if something's ultimately unenforceable, is it even worth exploring, which is if you can dope for three years and nine months and build up this base and then just go off and pass all the tests when you do, If that's a reality of it, then what are we talking about?

[2674] So I guess the real rule is like you just have to be clean for those three months, you know.

[2675] Or maybe they test them the whole, all year.

[2676] I don't know.

[2677] They should, I guess.

[2678] If they really are sincere about it, they should be testing them every month, you know, all year in between events.

[2679] Well, my guess is, I mean, again, there's so many, like, meats and stuff.

[2680] We only hear, we hear about this one every four years, but I assume they're getting tested before all of these things.

[2681] You would guess, yeah.

[2682] I'm guessing, then.

[2683] I have her sad video.

[2684] At the courthouse?

[2685] Yeah.

[2686] I play it?

[2687] Sure.

[2688] I'll play a little bit of it.

[2689] And so it is with a great amount of shame that I stand before you and tell you that I have betrayed your trust.

[2690] I want all of you to know that today I pled guilty to two counts of making false statements to federal agents.

[2691] making these false statements to federal agents was an incredibly stupid thing for me to do and I am responsible fully for my actions I have no one to blame but myself for what I've done that's all it's four minutes but it's sad I think it's really sad it's hard to be a person it is I guess if I were her I would have been throwing people way under the bus.

[2692] I would have been like, guys, as it turns out I was, and I acknowledge that, but I did not know.

[2693] Yeah.

[2694] I can't imagine saying I'm fully responsible, just me. Like, I had watched that, and then when we heard her story in person, I was like, oh, I thought she was going to tell us that she knowingly did it.

[2695] Yeah.

[2696] But then she told us she didn't know.

[2697] What I took was not necessarily like I fully didn't know, but I actively chose to not pay any attention.

[2698] Mm -hmm, which...

[2699] I guess maybe someone just advised you, like, look, there's no way...

[2700] You just got a...

[2701] That in front of the courthouse sounds like she's saying she knowingly was doping the whole time.

[2702] Yeah.

[2703] And that's not what we heard.

[2704] Right, exactly.

[2705] Here, so I don't know, like...

[2706] I think she was just doing the right thing.

[2707] Like, you know, like, I should take accountability for my actions.

[2708] Because she could have said, like, look, as it turns out, I was, I didn't know.

[2709] Yeah.

[2710] Now, what I did do...

[2711] Once I found out, I kept it quiet for two years.

[2712] That's on me. I was really scared.

[2713] Because that's what she said now with us.

[2714] And to me, maybe she just thought no one would even believe that she didn't know.

[2715] Maybe.

[2716] I mean, it's just like you take the high road.

[2717] You say, look, I did this.

[2718] What's insane is that somehow she was incarcerated.

[2719] I cannot believe that.

[2720] We paid as citizens, we paid for that woman to sit in a prison for, for, what to keep all of us safe from her running too fast so outrageous it's so it's nuts it is nuts if she were white they wouldn't have centered i hate to say it i agree yeah and they said make an example out of you yeah okay all right well that's it that's it for marian that's it for our olympic coverage for now no well no it's not it for our limbic coverage is going to continue like a week past the because of our delay.

[2721] Oh, my God.

[2722] No, yeah.

[2723] We'll keep talking about it.

[2724] We'll know about the gymnastics team event and all -round event.

[2725] We'll probably know about Noah and Shakari.

[2726] I'll learn some more new names because I'm watching everything.

[2727] So as I hear more interesting names, I'll report them.

[2728] Great.

[2729] And fun pairings, cook and bacon.

[2730] I know.

[2731] They got to, they need to start a business.

[2732] this i like these um there's two female volleyball players they're so dominant in there they've bucked the system there's they stay in louisiana they don't most people come to california to train almost everyone i think but they played for like louisiana or something oh cool college and they're like no no we're gonna stay right here and train and they're well perfect training you can be good there in that heat that's true you get to paris and you're like you think the humidity would fuck you up a little bit yeah it'd be harder it'd be like training at elevation kind of I know, but...

[2733] Like, everywhere else you played would be a breeze.

[2734] That's kind of interesting because I think, I don't know.

[2735] I feel like you're supposed to train in the exact environment.

[2736] Even if you think it's harder.

[2737] Well, the elevation thing is a proven fact.

[2738] Well, that's a way to dope, by the way.

[2739] It's just, again, here's another interesting one.

[2740] That's a way to dope without doping, which is you go up there and you train for a few months and you get way more hemoglobin to carry more red blood cells and you have an advantage when you come to sea level.

[2741] Yeah, for how long?

[2742] It can't be for that long.

[2743] No, that's what boxers do.

[2744] That's what tons of elite athletes.

[2745] They train at elevation to get the hemoglobin up.

[2746] And that's fine.

[2747] But if you could take a shot that increased your hemoglobin, that would be not fine.

[2748] It's just interesting.

[2749] That's why it's so hard.

[2750] None of it's very clean.

[2751] Yeah.

[2752] Like, they're allowed to take vitamins and optimize everything else.

[2753] Okay, enough of that.

[2754] Yeah.

[2755] It's tricky.

[2756] It is.

[2757] It's interesting.

[2758] I kind of fall.

[2759] I always fall on this.

[2760] I was, I hated that, Reggie Bush had to give his Heism back because he bought his mom a house from the booster money.

[2761] I thought that was bullshit.

[2762] I generally I'm going to come on on the side of the, you know, disenfranchised athlete that came from nothing.

[2763] I mean, yeah.

[2764] I mean, you got to get, fuck, just get out of their way.

[2765] Like, go pick on someone else.

[2766] Like, literally, there's so many fucking privileged assholes you could be pointing your...

[2767] It's true.

[2768] Think of many people, think of my these fucking bankers didn't go sit in a prison after 2008.

[2769] I know.

[2770] It's crazy.

[2771] And Marriings, you ran too fast?

[2772] So afraid?

[2773] I hate it.

[2774] Yeah.

[2775] Well, I found her very inspiring.

[2776] She's turned her narratives.

[2777] This is adjacent to Monica Lewinsky.

[2778] Like, the whole country hates your guts.

[2779] You've got to keep going.

[2780] I know.

[2781] You got a whole life to live and you got to refuse to be defeated by it.

[2782] It's so inspiring.

[2783] And it's only way after the fact that people are like, huh.

[2784] We were a little hard on that person.

[2785] I think that was maybe not so nice.

[2786] Yeah.

[2787] Yeah.

[2788] All right.

[2789] All right.

[2790] Love you.

[2791] Love you.

[2792] Follow Armchair Expert on the Wondry app, Amazon music, or wherever you get your podcasts.

[2793] You can listen to every episode of Armchair Expert early and ad free right now by joining Wondry Plus in the Wondry app or on Apple Podcasts.

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