315 - Here Be Monsters!

[0] This is exactly right.

[1] Welcome to my favorite murder.

[2] That's Georgia.

[3] Thanks.

[4] That's Karen.

[5] Thanks.

[6] That's what we go by now.

[7] We don't have last names anymore.

[8] What did you just do?

[9] Well, because I was looking at my hand.

[10] Oh, yeah.

[11] Yeah, I just looked down and there's like, there's just some stuff on my hand.

[12] Kind of gray.

[13] It's not, it's not like, it looks permanent.

[14] Is it goo?

[15] Or are you on hallucinence?

[16] It's, um, I can see through my hand and I can see the universe in my hand.

[17] I don't know.

[18] What is that?

[19] Is that where it's been this whole fucking time?

[20] And it's all, it's all goo.

[21] Here's the good news.

[22] It's all goo.

[23] Here's the bad news.

[24] It's all go.

[25] Yeah, I don't know what this is.

[26] Oh, I see that.

[27] It looks like I think I was holding a pencil.

[28] Uh -huh.

[29] I've, uh, as a writer, I tend to not be able to handle the actual writing instruments that I use a lot of the time.

[30] So like, yeah.

[31] I'm always the person with a little bit of pen on my cheek.

[32] That's cool, that makes you look smart.

[33] You know, like between that and glasses, you're just like, what's up?

[34] I'm smart.

[35] Leave me alone.

[36] This thing I'm doing now where I'm basically wearing glasses as a headband.

[37] I love it.

[38] It's like a theater professor affectation that all I need is a cigarette.

[39] And I will have completed my I'm actually a drama teacher life simulation.

[40] but you've got it you figured it out listen this is what this is my costume this is your cross to bear this is my cross Jesus get off of it we're not sharing doubles what's you say I said doubles doubles get over here you crazy sir I was going to say survivor I know I don't think that happened I don't think that's the Bible well actually on our part of the Bible he he rises again what I'm back.

[41] You would not believe.

[42] I got a season two.

[43] I'm on.

[44] I've come back.

[45] It's because of your sins.

[46] Way to go, loser.

[47] Actually, that's my Bible.

[48] That's perfect because I have a segue off of that.

[49] Kind of in the Game of Thrones where I have something to yell loudly.

[50] But it's a big spoiler.

[51] So if you haven't watched it yet, do a quick 30 second forward.

[52] But if you have, Karen, I just want to yell.

[53] They killed John Snow.

[54] Yeah, they did.

[55] What the fuck?

[56] I thought he would be there till the end.

[57] I mean, the thing that I have to say to you every time is like, just keep going.

[58] Okay, does he come back as a white walker?

[59] That'd be fun.

[60] Wouldn't it be interesting?

[61] Does he?

[62] Well, you don't want me to tell you.

[63] I don't.

[64] All right.

[65] And I'm not telling him.

[66] you just so you know this is not i'm not misleading you or leading you okay i'm neither here nor there you're just holding me in near gray hands i'm holding this space for you while you wonder um there's some great things coming up though oh really okay yeah but i couldn't remember how that i i it's so funny to talk about the show with you and i can't remember here and there but did you finally see that battle scene I was talking about when he has to walk into battle probably by himself I'm telling you I mute and look away during every like I don't care about battles so much that I'm like tell me who wins obviously going to be this guy I'm happy barathean's dead because that guy was a fucking dick oh that guy what a great day on that show when when Joffrey barathean was murdered no no no no the the brother of the king Stannis Stannis Who killed Stanis Barathean was Wait which one is he He killed his sweet little daughter And he was boning the redhead The redheaded witch Oh yeah Yes That's right I was so glad he died He was really It was a great character For that kind of like When people get pulled You've seen this in your own life When people who were Normal and regular Suddenly have some new person their life and they're pulled into a dark side where you're like, why can't, why aren't you looking directly into my eyes?

[67] What's happening?

[68] They're like, so -and -so read my moon sign and it turns out that I'm actually supposed to be king of the fucking whatever.

[69] And like, you're like, well, maybe you should calm down about it because you keep killing your daughter and like people.

[70] Yeah.

[71] Maybe you should get back to basics.

[72] Right.

[73] Stanis Barathean.

[74] I thought you were talking about King Joffrey.

[75] Oh, no, no, no. He died alive.

[76] No, no, no, no. He's way dead.

[77] dead he's like super dead and this is an irresponsible discussion of game of thrones it's out of uh it's out no i'm just saying it's like i'm confused i'm referring to people i don't even know if that's actually who we're talking about like i'm watching it six years later so this is now that i know this at least this timeline you have a you have a you have a scene coming up uh in the next season that you can You cannot look away from.

[78] Is that the one you keep mentioning?

[79] Yes.

[80] Okay.

[81] But you have a season to go, so I'll try to remind you.

[82] It's season, it's season six, episode nine.

[83] Okay.

[84] Wait, I'm in season six now, but yeah, yeah, okay.

[85] You're in season six?

[86] Well, because it ended with John Snow dying.

[87] So now I'm on.

[88] I'm joking like you got a part in the show.

[89] I have to walk through the streets naked.

[90] Oh, that scene.

[91] I ring that bell.

[92] I throw shit on her.

[93] That scene.

[94] So intense.

[95] Disgusting.

[96] Mm -hmm.

[97] I mean, like craft services that day.

[98] I don't know.

[99] Oof.

[100] Anyway, what you got, girl?

[101] Hey, girlfriend.

[102] What have you got?

[103] Hey, did you start watching the Tinder swindler?

[104] Not yet.

[105] Not yet.

[106] Is it great?

[107] I just started it today.

[108] So I'm, I'm, I'm, I'm, I'm, I would say 30 minutes into it.

[109] Okay.

[110] And I will just say this.

[111] Say it.

[112] Yeah, I think let's talk about it next episode.

[113] Okay, I'll watch it.

[114] Because I realized I was sitting there and it was like three o 'clock.

[115] Yeah.

[116] As I was watching it and I was like, something's wrong.

[117] Am I hungry?

[118] Am I about to get sick?

[119] And I realized this idea of these women who look, who are talking and telling their story to camera and are completely normal yeah calm incredibly like gorgeous women who could probably get anyone they want yeah yeah and they're about to tell their story i'm sorry i bet either i bet both i bet you anything i bet even on parlor um on fucking wardle they're like what's up everyone hey did you see my word but i realized it makes me like physically ill, this idea of, it's just the dirtiest thing you can do.

[120] So that's to love someone.

[121] It's catfishing, essentially.

[122] It is, but in this way that like, once again, you've just kind of never seen it to this degree.

[123] Well, I watched, I watched, I listened to Sweet Bobby, like you mentioned.

[124] And I, I had a really, the first three episodes are what happened.

[125] And I had the hardest time going, going through it because it is just this.

[126] like the whole like emotionally and mentally abusive partner who love bombs who does all these things and I've seen friends go through that and I was just so I think I was like I hate this show but then I was like no no no what I hate is this concept yes and that someone could go we put through that for so long and it's just it was so rough yeah did you finish it yeah I finished it quick.

[127] Yes, right?

[128] You have to binge it because you're like, please tell me what in the hell is going on.

[129] Yeah, I was like, I hate this.

[130] I don't want to listen to this anymore.

[131] And then I couldn't stop listening to it.

[132] I mean, it's good.

[133] It's not like I hated it.

[134] But it was just like so hard to get through.

[135] Because it's like being made.

[136] It's like someone going, hey, go walk over there and talk to that person where you're like, ew, what do you know what I'm talking about?

[137] It's that feeling of like.

[138] I don't want to be here.

[139] I shouldn't be listening to this.

[140] This is not my business.

[141] And yet, of course, I'm going to listen to.

[142] to it because it's being presented by the person.

[143] Right.

[144] So it happened to.

[145] So she has agency in telling the story.

[146] So you kind of have to trust her.

[147] Right.

[148] In that way.

[149] I mean, she's so brave to tell her story because she's going to help so many people be aware of what's going on.

[150] But it does also like, just like, yeah, like I lost a friend to a person who in real life, it wasn't a, it wasn't catfishing, but was that love bombing, get you away from your friends, make you feel like you're crazy.

[151] and I just was every little bit that Sweet Bobby was doing to her was familiar and I just got so just like creeped out by it.

[152] It sucks.

[153] It sucks.

[154] Right, because it's the kind of thing where when someone is going through what they believe is like, oh, I found something.

[155] And so I'm having this great relationship in this great time.

[156] I think it gets people at this vulnerable place, which is kind of what we're talking about.

[157] about like why it's so difficult.

[158] And so you see like you become that person.

[159] So you're like, okay, I see how you're making this wrong decision.

[160] You're basing, you're giving too much importance to stuff that actually doesn't matter.

[161] Right.

[162] And you're not paying attention to the stuff that does or you're kind of ignoring it.

[163] Which is what we all do.

[164] Because you're being mentally manipulated by using the basic need in life, which is love and companionship.

[165] That, you know, it doesn't have to be a relationship.

[166] but we all need somehow and it's just heartbreaking well it's dirty it's dirty business it's like yeah because to then manipulate a thing like that which is it's just the grossest thing that you can do insincerely yeah just to get your way to get money to get power well this one's so weird troll over someone.

[167] Because there isn't gain.

[168] There isn't monetary gain, which I think everyone else would understand, you know, or her friends would have been like, stop doing this.

[169] You're giving too much money.

[170] But it wasn't that.

[171] That wasn't involved in it.

[172] It was just purely emotional manipulation for someone else's power trip.

[173] Yeah.

[174] It's definitely goes into the area of either sociopathic or psychopathic tendencies of like, why else would you hurt?

[175] a person for 10 years.

[176] Hey, I have something positive if you need a palette cleanser everyone after.

[177] There's a new HD TV, HG television show, HG TV show called Ugliest House in America, hosted by RETA from Parks and Recreation, and she's a comedian.

[178] She's so freaking hilarious.

[179] And she basically just goes around the country and people submit their house as the ugliest house in America.

[180] So we've got the, what we've talked about before, car, blue shag carpet in the bathroom and like mirrors on the ceiling, like the ugliest fucked up houses you've seen.

[181] And they're all competing for one of them to get a renovation.

[182] So everyone else is just showing off their house, their ugly house house.

[183] It's, and Red is so fucking funny in it.

[184] Like, she's just, it's just, and she looks, she looks incredibly like her clothes insane and awesome and like it's just really fun to watch wait so sorry people like are basically giving red a tour of their house being like look how gross this is yeah give me a renovation and they're like they're like they do all over the country and then they're like one of you will get it so everyone else is fucked they're like an ugly ass house but it's so enjoyable like vince and i watch and are just like what the fuck like look at that like just shit it's everywhere Now, sorry to ask, but is, are the people, did, are they responsible for some of the decoration?

[185] Did they buy a house and it's just old and they can't afford to update?

[186] None of them have done are guilty.

[187] It's not their fault.

[188] None of them are guilty.

[189] They got in a house for a bargain or they liked it at the time and then it's just not functional.

[190] But yeah, it's, it's really, like, really entertaining.

[191] Ugliest house in America is what's called.

[192] That sounds good.

[193] Yeah.

[194] So it's a good palate cleanser.

[195] I have a good recommendation.

[196] And this is one of those ones.

[197] You know, when you're kind of like, I love, here's why I love podcasting, one of the many reasons, because there's literally a billion podcasts.

[198] So good luck finding, like, you know, there's lists, there's networks, there's people giving you recommendations.

[199] But it's also like, I consume podcasts very quickly, so I'm always searching for one that's going to like really hope.

[200] me in and be like, oh, I want to go back to that.

[201] And I did this one.

[202] I found this one randomly because I think I just put in true crime and just saw what came up.

[203] I sort of God.

[204] So this is a C -13 original, our friends over Cadence 13.

[205] They know how to make a limited series podcast.

[206] It's called Gone South.

[207] It's hosted by a guy named Jed Lipinski.

[208] And it is the story, it's from the 80s.

[209] and it's about a female lawyer in this very small, like, gated community outside of Norlands.

[210] And this woman, her name was Margaret Coon, very successful lawyer, and she was murdered one night.

[211] And it's the story of basically them, it was an unsolved murder for a long time and then basically getting back into it and going into it and trying to figure out who is responsible.

[212] And it's really well done.

[213] The interviews are mind -boggling.

[214] You know, that like a legit Norland's accent is kind of amazing to listen to.

[215] It's like the South with a twist of lemon.

[216] It was such a delightful listen.

[217] There are only, it's short.

[218] I think it was only six or seven episodes.

[219] Oh, I'm sorry, there's eight episodes.

[220] But, oh, I'm going to give it five stars right now.

[221] Now that I'm on here.

[222] it was it's just so good it's just like it you breeze through it and it's just like the 80s weren't that long ago to me but the 80s were 800 years ago in a lot of ways yeah I've been seeing it on the charts I'll watch it gone south let's do it gone south really great really great okay just a good binger as I do my morning dishes or whatever yeah your morning dishes do you have morning afternoon and night dishes I think um for yeah because oh I I'm over here just with all my Julie Child recipes.

[223] No, I think it's just I like to do.

[224] I like to pretend I'm a big soaker of dishes.

[225] Oh, yeah, yeah.

[226] I'm just going to let them.

[227] You're like, I would do them.

[228] I'm not lazy.

[229] I just, they're soaking right now.

[230] They have to soak.

[231] We have to get that layer of nothing off of them.

[232] So I like to let him sit for a while.

[233] But then I don't like a dirty house in the morning.

[234] It bums me. Yeah, yeah.

[235] So I have to do a morning clean through.

[236] we like Vince and I both have like our things that we like to do and clean and stuff and for unfortunately neither of us is dishes like it just we one of us needs to be like no but I love doing dishes but it's neither of us here throw on your AirPods okay turn on gone south and see if those dishes don't bug you a little bit less this time because it goes fast yay girl yeah I think that's all my recommendations that I can think of offhand.

[237] I got nothing else.

[238] Do you want to do some exactly right network highlights?

[239] We might as well.

[240] We're here, aren't we?

[241] We might as well.

[242] This week is the season four finale of 10fold more wicked because Kate Winkler -Dawson won't stop, can't stop, won't stop.

[243] Season 5, which is called Blood Feud, is going to drop Monday, March 7th.

[244] So if you're wrapping up season four of a tenfold more wicked, don't worry because season five is right around the corner.

[245] That's right.

[246] And we have a new episode of Nick Terry's incredible MFM animated videos.

[247] It's out now.

[248] It's the episode is called Hair Tie.

[249] It's on the exactly right media YouTube channel.

[250] So please subscribe to that.

[251] It's the one where Karen uses a buckin pad.

[252] No, it does.

[253] Spoiler.

[254] All right.

[255] Just go check that out.

[256] And exactly right, media is YouTube channel, please.

[257] Imagine what would be something I would wrap my hair in to tie my hair back to wash my face.

[258] That would get the biggest to elicit the biggest response out of a room full of people.

[259] That's right.

[260] Discover that now.

[261] You could have actually said it.

[262] I don't know why I'm trying to pretend that this is any.

[263] more exciting than it is.

[264] You've heard, you've heard us talk about it, so it's not like it's new.

[265] But the animation that Nick Terry fucking achieves when he does these MFM animated videos is just like high art. I'm just, he's just incredible.

[266] He's really good.

[267] Oh, that's in the middle but now we're going back to the network shows.

[268] I saw what you did is now closing out their Black History Month programming.

[269] They've got a double feature of horror films by black filmmakers they're going to be doing us and tales from the hood epic a nice side -by -side analysis of two horror movies by black filmmakers and then also we have the fuck you I'm married joggers back in stock for anyone who needs them at my favorite murder .com am I first?

[270] I think you are all right well fine then I'll go first Do it then.

[271] I'm gonna.

[272] Karen, you know I'm all about vintage shopping.

[273] Absolutely.

[274] And when you say vintage, you mean when you physically drive to a store and actually purchase something with cash.

[275] Exactly.

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[289] Important note, That promo code is all lowercase.

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[291] That's Shopify .com slash murder.

[292] Goodbye.

[293] Okay, Karen, this is a story that seems like it should have been huge, but I hadn't heard about until I saw it on Reddit late one night.

[294] But you'd probably heard of it because it's from your area of birth, your hometown.

[295] This is the Gypsy Hill Killings.

[296] Hmm.

[297] I don't know if I've heard of it.

[298] Oh, okay.

[299] It's also known as the San Mateo Slayer.

[300] Oh, okay.

[301] And this terrified the San Francisco Peninsula area when in less than four months, five women were killed back in the 70s.

[302] So the sources I use today are four San Mateo Times articles, one written by Janet Parker, Rick Sullivan, and two by the staff, a Pacifica Tribune staff article, a KTVU staff article, two BuzzFeed articles by Stephanie Bayer and Stephanie McNeil Associated Press Staff article a CBS 13 Sacramento staff article, the National Registry of Exoneration and a San Mateo Daily Journal article written by Anna Schusler.

[303] All right.

[304] So KTVU is our home local station.

[305] Okay.

[306] There's only one to and I fucking love that shit.

[307] That's where the great Dennis Richmond was the news anchor for all of my life, legendary.

[308] I've talked about him on this show but please don't forget the great Dave McElhatton who actually now that I think about it may have been on KPI pick KPIX channel 5 but anyway KTVU literally you said that and like the weirdest thing of like my heart goes like oh that's my station that's my home station.

[309] Do you have that?

[310] Do you have that for Orange County?

[311] I have it for L .A. because we just got L .A.'s Oh, right, right.

[312] So Dallas Rains our fucking incredible weather guy.

[313] Legend.

[314] I've been with.

[315] That's not it.

[316] He's been part of my life since I was a child.

[317] It was like you fucked Dallas Raines.

[318] Oh, I've been with Dallas Raines.

[319] He was my first husband.

[320] You didn't know that?

[321] We've all been with Dallas Raines in many ways.

[322] I think I used to do a bit about him because watching him, it really seemed like he's stoned when he talks about.

[323] And then it was like, because I used to only watch.

[324] local.

[325] I used to only be able to get local TV in my apartment in Hollywood.

[326] So I watched a lot of like local news and every once in a while Dallas Rains would come on and it was the most entertaining thing.

[327] I guess maybe he always looked like someone I wanted to be my stepdad.

[328] Like I always was like, Mom, Mary a Dallas Rains please.

[329] I will be Georgia Raines.

[330] No, I wouldn't.

[331] Dad, Marty, I would never change my last name.

[332] However, you know.

[333] Yeah, like a tan guy that clearly drives a convertible.

[334] and has for 40 years.

[335] I'm like, treat Janet right, you know.

[336] Yeah, and be kind of chill and, you know, just go to brunch and enjoy yourselves.

[337] It'd be fun and let like the kids right in the front seat of the convertible.

[338] I'm sure he had one of those giant fucking car phones back then.

[339] You know, all that all that local news money.

[340] Yeah, he had, but he immediately had a car phone with a ring cord.

[341] Okay, where the fuck were we?

[342] Now, let's get into the shit.

[343] Okay.

[344] January 7th, it's 1976, around 6 p .m. Veronica Casillo, who went by Ronnie, is waiting for a bus in Pacifica, California.

[345] As you know, Karen, it's a quiet beach city about 12 miles outside of San Francisco.

[346] And Veronica's headed to a friend's birthday party.

[347] But the 18 -year -old high school student never makes it to the party.

[348] And the next day, her nude body is found by a 16 -year -old boy.

[349] I know.

[350] Awful.

[351] She's in a creek that runs through the grounds of a golf course.

[352] It's near the bus stop where she was last seen, so she hadn't gotten far.

[353] She'd been sexually assaulted and stabbed more than 30 times in the neck, chest, and abdomen.

[354] I don't think I've ever heard this.

[355] That's near you, right?

[356] Yeah.

[357] Yeah, Pacifica's right south.

[358] My cousin lives there, and it's very foggy.

[359] It's like socked in fog, like, crook.

[360] crazy, can't see in front of you.

[361] But it's a little south for me growing up and maybe a tiny bit early for when I first.

[362] Trailside Killer was when I really started becoming aware that serial killers were a thing.

[363] And maybe this was just a little bit early.

[364] Yeah, maybe your parents were like, go in the, you can have hot chocolate if you get out of the news living room and don't watch this horrible news.

[365] Just a month later on February 4th, 17 -year -old Paul.

[366] Louise Baxter, she goes to her high school in the evening to rehearse for a play she's in at her Millbrae, California High School in the same area.

[367] And that is where all my cousins, like all the rest of my cousins grew up in Milbray.

[368] So I actually, I didn't realize San Mateo is the county, I think.

[369] Yeah.

[370] And maybe one of the bigger cities, but this is, I know exactly what this area is.

[371] Okay.

[372] But it's all like the foggy on the coast, San Francisco area.

[373] Yeah.

[374] So she leaves rehearsal at around 8 p .m. and never makes it home.

[375] And hours later, her car is found parked on a residential street, just three blocks from the school.

[376] And the wheels, the undercarriage and the driver's side floor are all muddy.

[377] And the keys are still in the ignition, but there's no blood found inside the car.

[378] And then two days later, on February 16th, a group of students gather together to do a search team, which is like, oh, you guys.

[379] and they search behind a church in Millbrae where they find Paula's nude body in a grove of eucalyptus trees.

[380] There are tire tracks leading away from her body and she had also been sexually assaulted and stabbed four times in, again, the neck, chest, and abdomen.

[381] San Mateo residents think that the, what's being called the San Mateo slasher has moved on when there isn't a body found the following month.

[382] Like they think that's the pattern.

[383] but those hopes are destroyed when another murder victim is found the following month during the evening hours of April 1st, 19 -year -old Denise Lynn Lamp and a friend have a shopping date at the Ceramonte Shopping Center in Daily City, which is right next to where I lived in San Francisco in the sunset district.

[384] Yep.

[385] So Daily City is a totally sleepy town right outside of San Francisco.

[386] The song Little Boxes is based on Daily City it's like a total suburb.

[387] And Denise actually works as a cosmetic salesperson at one of the department stores in the shopping center.

[388] So she knows the area well.

[389] And so when Denise and her friend are done shopping, the two women split up and they head to their cars with plans to meet at Denise's house.

[390] And the friend heads over to Denise's waits for a long time.

[391] And when Denise never shows up, the friend goes back to the mall because she knows something isn't right.

[392] She locates Denise's car along with the the security guard, and when they look inside, they find Denise's bloody the body, quote, crumpled in the front seat.

[393] And she'd been stabbed 20 times in the chest and arms.

[394] Of course, the friend is absolutely shocked and confused as she had just seen Denise alive 30 minutes prior.

[395] I can't imagine what happened in that short time.

[396] Oh, my God.

[397] And also to be that person, like that, that is such a tech.

[398] tonic shift in your reality.

[399] That's horrifying.

[400] Investigators, of course, noticed that Denise's murder similar to the murders of Veronica and Paula.

[401] And like the previous victim's niece was young.

[402] And they all had long brown hair parted down the middle.

[403] They do all look strikingly similar, but that was also the look at the time.

[404] So, you know, who knows?

[405] But they do look very similar.

[406] Yeah.

[407] And they'd all been stabbed multiple times.

[408] But investigators also notice a couple of major differences.

[409] Denise had been attacked in a public place, and she wasn't stabbed in the neck, which I don't think is, you know, that doesn't have to be an ammo.

[410] And she wasn't sexually assaulted, although investigators can't explain the first and second differences, but they have a theory for the third, which is that the killer did plan to sexually assault Denise, but she fought back so aggressively that he abandoned the sexual assault and murdered her.

[411] So it also could have been that because she was attacked in a public place.

[412] This is what I think that maybe he did that and then took them to another location in their car, it seems like.

[413] And he wasn't able to because she fought back.

[414] Yeah.

[415] Makes sense.

[416] Yeah.

[417] So the following month in May, a fourth victim is founded, this time in South San Francisco, 26 -year -old Carol Lee Booth, known as Beatt to her friends, had been reported missing by her husband, Michael, months earlier.

[418] or in March.

[419] The last time anyone saw her, she was leaving a bus stop walking toward her house.

[420] And she just finished her first day at a secretarial job, but she had never made it home.

[421] So she'd gone missing in March.

[422] In May, Carol's body is discovered in a heavily wooded area near Colma Creek.

[423] And her shallow grave is just off a dirt path used as a shortcut mostly by high school students.

[424] But Carol was known to use the shortcut.

[425] And she had been sexually assaulted and stabbed to death.

[426] Investigators were fairly certain that Carol's murder was also related to the previous three.

[427] Carol was older than the other victims, but apparently she looked much younger, and she was taking a path that high school students took, so she could have been confused for a high school student.

[428] In mid -May, multiple law enforcement agencies meet to discuss the four murders, seemingly related murders.

[429] All four are thought to be connected, but only the murders of Veronica and Paula have been officially linked via hair and semen.

[430] And results show the suspect as being a white male with brown hair.

[431] And this is, sorry, 1976, so there's almost no testing that like, right.

[432] Yeah, that it, that's, I just, it's just so mind -blowing to think back then that they had to solve murders.

[433] And with all that, you know, it was like the saliva test or whatever.

[434] Yeah.

[435] Like, it was so, it was such old, inaccurate.

[436] Yeah.

[437] It seemed like back then, it was like they could tell the blood type of the person and that was about it, right?

[438] Yeah, if they were a secreter or not.

[439] Yeah.

[440] But then it's like, yeah.

[441] Yeah, it's, yeah, that's crazy.

[442] We're so lucky these days.

[443] Yeah.

[444] In June, the fifth and final victim is found again in Pacifica.

[445] 14 -year -old Tatiana Blackwell, known as Tanya, had been reported missing by her mom on January 24th.

[446] She had left the house to run an errand but never returned.

[447] almost six months later on June 6th, and just a mile from her home, Tanya's bodies discovered in a grove of trees located off an access road in the Gypsy Hill area, which is how the killer got his new moniker, the Gypsy Hill killer.

[448] And because, unfortunately, Tanya's body is decomposed over the last several months, the medical examiner is unable to tell if she'd been sexually assaulted.

[449] But however, her body was found fully clothed.

[450] And just like Veronica, Paula, Denise, and Carol, Tanya had been stabbed multiple times.

[451] Law enforcement agencies continue to work together to solve these five murders in the San Mateo County area.

[452] But with the lack of DNA technology and eyewitnesses, they come up empty.

[453] And the cases go cold for decades.

[454] Then in March of 2014, so fucking long time.

[455] Yeah.

[456] The Gypsy Hill Killings cases are reopened after the FBI forms a task force with multiple local law enforcement agencies.

[457] I fucking did not hear about this.

[458] Like, I didn't know about this at all.

[459] Same.

[460] They have the DNA available from two of the murders tested.

[461] And by July, they have a hit on those two cases, finally.

[462] The name is Rodney Halbauer, a 65 -year -old man who's been in prison or on the lamb since the the 1960s.

[463] In 1964, he spent a short amount of time behind bars after he stole a car.

[464] In Michigan, where he grew up and lived at the time.

[465] Basically, he's ended in prison for the next decade on stuff like breaking and entering robbery.

[466] He occasionally escapes from prison, blah, blah, blah, he sucks.

[467] And he's released in 1975, right, when the murder start happening and it moves out west to Nevada.

[468] So in December of 1975, he's arrested, were raping a blackjack dealer in Reno and released on bail in May of 76.

[469] He's sentenced to life in prison for the rape.

[470] But in the next year, he escapes prison, goes back to Michigan, kidnaps his daughter, gets caught, and authorities agree to drop the kidnapping charges if he agreed to go back to Nevada to finish out the sentence.

[471] He stays in prison until December of 1986 when he escapes again.

[472] And he's arrested within days and Oregon, after he raped and attempted to murder a woman, Howe Bauer was convicted and sentenced to 15 years but was sent back to Nevada to finish up that term.

[473] 2013 is granted parole in Nevada and was immediately sent to Oregon to serve the 15 -year term he'd received way back when.

[474] And thankfully, finally, when he gets to the new prison, a sample of his DNA was taken and entered into the national database.

[475] And that's how the jiff.

[476] Hipsy Hill Killing Task Force got a match for the murders of Paula and Veronica.

[477] Wow.

[478] It seems like just a coincidence that within a year, they were able to catch him.

[479] Yeah.

[480] Okay.

[481] Then in what was seemingly an unrelated case at this point, authorities in Reno, Nevada, also received a notification that Hal Bauer's DNA matches one of their cases.

[482] That's the 1976 murder of a 19 -year -old Michelle.

[483] Mitchell.

[484] So on February 24th, 1976, in Reno, 19 -year -old nursing student Michelle Mitchell calls her mom for a ride after her car breaks down across the street from the University of Nevada, Reno.

[485] And within 10 minutes, her mom shows up and Michelle's already gone.

[486] A few hours later, Michelle's body is found in a garage across from the university.

[487] Her hands had been tied behind her back.

[488] Her throat had been slashed.

[489] She had not been sexually assaulted, but her keys are missing, and there's a cigarette, but real close to her body.

[490] But here's the thing.

[491] Someone had been in prison for decades already for Michelle's murder.

[492] In 1979, authorities in Shreveport, Louisiana, called the Reno police to let them know that a woman named Kathy Woods, who was a patient at a mental hospital there, had told a staff member, she had killed a girl named Michelle in Reno.

[493] Despite her obvious and well -documented mental health history, including a schizophrenia diagnosis, Reno police go and meet with her, and despite her confession only including information that had been reported in the media, as well as other red flags, Kathy is charged with Michelle's murder, and in 1980, she's convicted based almost solely on her false confession.

[494] in 2013, so back to when we're fucking figuring out what's going on.

[495] In 2013, Kathy reaches out to the Innocence Project, they'll agree to help her.

[496] And in the fall of that year, DNA on that cigarette butt that was found near Michelle's body is tested.

[497] And as expected, it didn't match Kathy, but it did match an at the time unknown male.

[498] However, authorities kept Kathy in jail suggesting that perhaps she was an accomplice.

[499] So banana's how little they paid attention to what was really going on.

[500] But finally, when the DNA matches Hal Bauer, Michelle Mitchell's murder investigation is reopened and Kathy is exonerated.

[501] Wow.

[502] Unfortunately, there isn't enough DNA evidence to test in Tanya.

[503] In Carol's cases, however, according to BuzzFeed, authorities have, quote, no reason to believe anyone else besides how Bauer was involved in their murders.

[504] which would be great to believe but like that there's only one murderer in that year in San Mateo County and I do think that he probably was responsible for them but what's so sad that you and I know is that or that we all know is that there's there's a lot of bad people out there.

[505] Well and also in the 70s there were those like we've talked about a couple times where there's like there was a bunch of crazy shit happening in Santa Cruz there was a lot of like drifter type drug people drifters you know ragers those people where it's just like suddenly they want to kill a college right girl that's in college or whatever like there's that story's we've done that one a bunch of time you did the like the i5 killer and it turns out there were like three of them operating at one fucking time like we want to believe it's just this one monster but really it's it's so far reaching yes but also we do have to remember that the I -5 goes from, like, Mexico to fucking Canada.

[506] It's, you know, that's not one guy.

[507] Sometimes these names aren't great.

[508] Right.

[509] Yeah, totally.

[510] So then a bloodstain on Denise's jacket is tested.

[511] And they don't find Howbauer's DNA.

[512] Instead, they find the DNA of a man named Leon Melvin Seymour, who's a 71 -year -old sexually violent predator, an inmate -slash -patient at Coalinga State Hospital.

[513] So there were two predators at that time working in the same manner in the same area.

[514] Seymour's first conviction was in 1973 for assault with intent to rape in San Mateo County.

[515] And since then, he'd been convicted of kidnapping and sexually assaulting six women in multiple California counties.

[516] So in November 2018, he's charged with torturing and murdering Denise.

[517] He pleads not guilty.

[518] he goes to trial in March 2020, COVID happens, trials postponed.

[519] And as of right now, Seymour's case hasn't gone back to trial.

[520] Meanwhile, the task force is still unable to connect Howbauer to Carol and Tanya's murders, but they want to make sure how about remains behind bars forever.

[521] So authorities move forward with charges for Paula and Veronica's murders, which does have the matched DNA.

[522] He goes to trial in 2018.

[523] the jury convicts him on all counts and he's currently facing charges for the murder of Michelle Mitchell in Nevada.

[524] So here's a weird little aside.

[525] It's like a twist that happened in the case.

[526] So back in 1989, a woman in California named Eileen Franklin Lipsker claimed that she had a recovered memory that had been repressed that her father, George Thomas Franklin Sr., had raped and murdered her best friend, Susan Nason, when they were eight years old back in Northern California, 20 years before.

[527] So he gets charged with Susan's murder and based only on Eileen's testimony, his daughter's testimony, your face, cringing face is correct.

[528] Yeah, that's shocking.

[529] He's charged with Susan's murder based only on Eileen's testimony, as well as that of her sister, who claimed that their father was pedophile who had molested and raped them when they were kids and the case is super high profile and controversial as it was the first in which a recovered memory was used in a criminal prosecution and you remember this started a trend of like these disturbing repressed childhood memories coming to light with people in therapy yeah and it yeah it was like it was almost like similar this and around the time of the satanic panic right yeah because there's oftentimes, well, I mean, this is very generalized, but just my memory of the different cases where there would be ritualistic child abuse involved in some of these recovered memories where it was absolutely parallel to satanic panic, where it was kind of almost like in the consciousness.

[530] Right.

[531] So, you know, then you had the things like the, the McLaren, whatever the family was, where they were running the daycare I covered that in our lives show.

[532] Oh, you did.

[533] I mean, it's just like, yeah, it's intense.

[534] But it's horrible to think that if these two girls lived through that, then they got into that position where they're the only two, and that's the only evidence.

[535] Like, why you have to build that case so that it's not all on their shoulders.

[536] Right.

[537] That's horrifying.

[538] It does seem in the end, And like, so let me tell you what happens.

[539] So I should keep talking about it when I have no idea what I'm fucking talking about.

[540] Well, no, no, you make a good point.

[541] And so George Thomas Franklin Sr. is found guilty in sentence to life based on the testimony of his daughters.

[542] Then Eileen said she has more recovered memories.

[543] This time that her dad had killed two of the Gypsy Hill murder victims, Veronica Casayo and Paula Baxter in Millie.

[544] Bray.

[545] So she's like, she killed my best, he killed my best friend.

[546] I witnessed it.

[547] And also he is the Gypsy Hill killers murderers.

[548] So in 1995, though, his conviction for the murder of Nase on the little girl is overturned.

[549] Eileen and her sister have a falling out.

[550] And her sister confesses that Eileen's quote, repressed memory that she had just had randomly hadn't come out of the blue as she testified, but it had actually come up when Eileen had been hypnotized, which just seems like a lot of the way those old repressed memories at the time came up.

[551] And it turns out, testimony -based hypnosis -induced memories are deemed unreliable by California's Supreme Court, which means that Eileen had committed perjury.

[552] So she just kept that to herself and it was like, it came out of nowhere.

[553] I mean, she seems like she believed it.

[554] She just didn't want to admit that it came out of hypnosis.

[555] It also feels like, if this really happened to those girls and they had to be quiet about it for so long, then they finally came forward and were like empowered to tell the truth about how horrible their childhoods were, then it would almost feel like, like, to me, just the human part of that feels like it's like, I need to really prove this.

[556] I need to really drive this home.

[557] It wasn't just me. It was these other people.

[558] He's the worst person.

[559] He's a serial killer.

[560] he killed these other girls like it's almost it feels like more of that kind of please be on my side like proof so yeah well i will say though so um so dna testing is done on the evidence obviously he's not the gypsy hill murderer um et cetera et cetera so although he didn't do that aline maintains that their father who died in 2016 did sexually abuse her as a child and sexually abuse her and her sister which you know seems possible and in fact susan nason's case is still unsolved so it could still be possible that he is indeed the killer like there's just not enough evidence but it's almost like i wish it was a time where she would understand that just that happening to her and her sister was plenty right like in no way accusing her of lying or doing anything at all knowing nothing about it but just knowing that feeling of like that that's enough yeah it's horrible and then that But she might have believed it.

[561] That's the thing, like, especially under hypnosis and you start to believe this thing, you know.

[562] And I read this other totally different article about how memories are so fallible and people make up things in their head that they absolutely believe.

[563] It doesn't mean she was making it up or lying.

[564] It might have just been that her memory, you know, she's eight.

[565] Her memory was, you know.

[566] Her memory was trauma -based memory.

[567] She went through horrible things.

[568] Her friend died when she was eight.

[569] Like all these horrible things.

[570] And her dad was a predator allegedly.

[571] You know, it makes sense.

[572] And it's really tragic.

[573] It's really tragic.

[574] Yeah.

[575] So as for Kathy Woods, she was the longest ever wrongfully imprisoned woman in U .S. history.

[576] Whoa.

[577] Who had confessed to the murder of Michelle.

[578] And in 2016, her lawyers filed a federal civil rights lawsuit against fricking everyone involved and ended up receiving millions of dollars in compensation.

[579] She died on July 15th, 2021.

[580] And finally, I looked up the hometowns related to this case.

[581] We got one sent in by someone who just signed at E, whose mother went to school with Paula Baxter, the girl who was murdered after leaving her high school theater rehearsal.

[582] And she says that there were rumors when he went to the same high school, you know, much later that there were, that there was a ghost of a girl who haunted the school who had been murdered.

[583] That's all she knew.

[584] So she goes home and asked her mom about it, who was in high school along with Paula.

[585] And his mom told her the story.

[586] And then E goes on to say, quote, Ms. Baxter, Paula's mother was wonderful because she was my grandmother's friend and lived in our neighborhood.

[587] My sister and I would go to her house every year and sell her Girl Scout cookies.

[588] And she would come visit.

[589] of my grandma.

[590] She made some fantastic shortbread.

[591] I hope that these women and their families were given some small bit of peace with Rodney's conviction.

[592] And I made sure to educate everyone at school on what happened whenever they talked about the ghost.

[593] It's important that people know their names, that they were real people with real dreams, and people who miss them dearly.

[594] And that is the Gypsy Hill Killings.

[595] God.

[596] So it really was that guy, that they got the DNA for but only for a couple of them they got him definitively for three of the total murders one of them wasn't him and then two others it seems like they're pretty certain it was him god damn it's also very interesting because I don't think you said it for all of them but for a lot of them them being found in groves of trees yeah yeah they're like all kind of of nature outdoors and they all were kidnapped from the street you know yeah it's just really wow yeah really tragic yeah also man just like the mid 70s dude i just feel like it's just like free reign for these predators and then like i mean of course also they got such short prison sentences for such horrendous acts of violence against women yeah and then we're able to fucking escape you know it's it's just also there's you know it there it we've talked about this a little bit but it was that thing of like the summer of love in 1969 had this influx of runaways and you know college dropouts or high schoolers or whatever just young people in san francisco thinking like they were causing you know that it was the revolution and they were going to change and it drew predators to that area because people were doing drugs freely they there were there was There's a lot of, like, trust and a lot of assumption that, like, people were going to naturally be good if they were, like, hippie types.

[597] Right.

[598] And so that just kind of struck me, too, whereas, like, every area you just talked about and all those, it's just, like, basically goes right down, it drips out of San Francisco and right down into South City, Daily City, Colma, fucking Milbrae, where just all of it.

[599] Along the coast, I feel like hitchhiking.

[600] was how you got around back then, right, too?

[601] So, like, you know, not to say that they were hitchiking, I have no clue, but it was just like a more trusting time, right?

[602] And like, we were more naive, unfortunately.

[603] Trusting and then so dangerous, like the unholy combination of this too.

[604] Yeah, man. Great job.

[605] That was fascinating.

[606] All right.

[607] Well, we're going to change gears now.

[608] I'm going to downshift you into a survival story.

[609] Please.

[610] Right?

[611] Yeah.

[612] This is the way we like to do, the one -two punch of the show My Favorite Murder.

[613] I believe Hannah Crichton is the one who found this survival story.

[614] And the second she told me about it, I was like, oh my, oh my God.

[615] She's good.

[616] I cannot wait.

[617] She's good at suggesting stories that like, you're like, you know me so well.

[618] Yeah.

[619] Well, Hannah is a true crime fan herself.

[620] And then she's listened to our show.

[621] And then she's a professional producer.

[622] So she's like.

[623] And then she's our producer.

[624] So it's kind of a dream come true.

[625] Okay, so this is the survival story of cruise ship.

[626] Well, you know, let me just tell you, actually.

[627] Okay, okay.

[628] I like that little tidbit of start, though.

[629] I just realize it's like it's all, it reminds me of doing the minis where it's just going to give it away.

[630] Yeah, do it.

[631] Okay.

[632] So we start on the morning of Saturday, August 3rd, 1991.

[633] Okay.

[634] And cruise ship musicians, Moss, and.

[635] Tracy Hills.

[636] So his first name is Moss.

[637] Amazing.

[638] Right?

[639] And his wife Tracy.

[640] They're aboard the Greek -owned cruise liner, the MTS Oceania.

[641] They're cruise ship musicians.

[642] So they're docked, they're gearing up to sail from East London, South Africa to Durban, South Africa.

[643] It's a little quick cruise, a little jaunt that they're about to go on.

[644] So the past two nights before that, they had been working and there had been both a bachelor party on the ship and a wedding.

[645] So they have gotten very little sleep.

[646] They're both really exhausted.

[647] They eat breakfast together that morning, but then Tracy goes back to bed to try to catch up on some sleep.

[648] Moss walks into the harbor town to shop a little bit and then to call his mom from a pay phone.

[649] So as Moss is catching up with his mom, she expresses concern about the weather that they're having down in this area.

[650] So the night before, during the wedding that the couple had to perform at, the ship sailed into a storm and it got very, very rocky.

[651] So they actually were forced to dock during the reception.

[652] It's not looking much better today.

[653] But Moss assures his mom that everything is going to be fine because even if they do sail out and there is a storm, the oceanus is big enough that it can handle it.

[654] Right.

[655] So when Moss gets back on board, the ship, he gets word that the launch is going to be delayed because of the bad weather.

[656] So departure time, it keeps getting pushed, but finally, the weather conditions clear up enough for the oceanus to set sail from East London.

[657] So the captain, a man named Janus of Rannis, is a seasoned sailor.

[658] He's got about 30 years experience, and there are 571 passengers and crew members on board this ship.

[659] So normally, Moss and Tracy would be performing a quote -unquote sail away show out on deck once the ship like leaves the dock or the harbor I should say it's a huge cruise ship whatever not a dock but the wind is blowing at 40 knots so and the swells in the ocean are are nearing 30 feet high no yeah so the shows moved to the main lounge indoors and even in these inclement conditions passengers they sing they dance they're all excited for the voyage they're like into it they also trust that the oceanus is big enough and can handle it yeah so that night dinner scheduled for seven o 'clock and then the evening cabaret show that moss and tracy are going to be performing at is at 10 o 'clock but during dinner service the ship is rocking to the point where experienced cruise ship waiters are dropping trays and spilling food which is something moss has never seen before because that's their experience and being like rock you know everything's rocky and they can put a big huge tray on their shoulder or whatever.

[660] So Moss isn't really concerned until after dinner, when he goes to the office to pick up his and Tracy's paychecks, and as he's waiting for them, he watches as one of the computers breaks free from the hold and crashes to the ground.

[661] And that's when Moss decides he probably should go up to the performance area and tie down their musical equipment because he's like, this is getting crazy.

[662] And even though everyone's acting like, it's fine, it's fine, like, you know, we better to be safe than sorry.

[663] So he runs up and tries to do this very discreetly so as not to cause concern among the passengers.

[664] So around 845, Moss makes his way back to their cabin, his and Tracy's cabin.

[665] And as he does, he notices security guards and crew members, some of them wet and wearing life jackets, running around the ship and grabbing belongings from their cabins.

[666] Cool.

[667] Right?

[668] A great feeling.

[669] Yeah.

[670] Just what you want to see on the high seas.

[671] Not haunting, not spine chilling at all.

[672] Ominous.

[673] Mas rushes back to the cabin and he tells Tracy to put on jeans and running shoes because they might have to abandon ship.

[674] Jesus.

[675] So once she changes, the two of them make their way up to the main lounge.

[676] So their show's supposed to start in less than an hour.

[677] yeah and the lounge is packed with passengers that are waiting for the show to start there there has to be a jigbox fucking put on some fucking yacht rock and get the fuck out of there there's like some um music being piped in it's like dun dun dun dun down and the whole boat's just like okay so uh so around 930 the rocking gets more violent And then the power goes out.

[678] What's up, Titanic?

[679] Like, I would just lose my mind.

[680] Right.

[681] That cool.

[682] So the power goes out.

[683] The emergency lighting comes on.

[684] It's dim.

[685] It's not the same.

[686] So Moss and Tracy, along with another performer named Robin Boltman, decide they need to get up there and start performing and distract people and keep the crowd calm.

[687] So basically, there's an episode of Snap Judgment.

[688] Glenn Washington's great podcast, Snap Judgment.

[689] And he also makes Spooked, two of my favorite podcasts.

[690] And this guy, Moss Hills, actually tells his own survival story.

[691] It's called Don't Go Down with the Ship.

[692] So you can hear him tell the story.

[693] But he basically says he gets up there and starts going, sorry, folks, we didn't pay our electric bill.

[694] He starts riffing and they're just fucking around.

[695] They're trying to do.

[696] And because there's no electricity, they can't, they're not, they're not.

[697] equipped to play normally so he's playing acoustic guitar and they're getting everybody to do sing along oh my god and he says that fucking professionals total professionals till till to end literally yeah he also says that the key to any sing along in an emergency situation is you have to play the beetles because it doesn't matter what's happening around people they will always sing along to a beatle song that's smart i was going to say sweet caroline but i don't know all the words to that and i don't think i think everyone just knows the chorus everyone just knows done done that but beetles makes sense okay okay so this actually ends up working for a little while but eventually with no emergency announcement or any communication from the captain of any kind moss and tracy and robin are no longer able to assuage everyone's fear so clearly you know the lights are out yeah everybody's singing the rocking's going crazy it's like what is going on totally so moss leaves to find the cruise director.

[698] Her name's Lorraine Betts.

[699] So it turns out that Lorraine has spoken to Captain of Rannis and he told her that there's a problem with the ship's engine and that everyone needs to get ready to abandon ship.

[700] Yeah.

[701] Oh my God.

[702] Like would you have told me if I hadn't asked you?

[703] Right.

[704] Exactly.

[705] Like what's why are you being secretive about it?

[706] So Moss was completely right.

[707] Yeah.

[708] Then when he told Tracy which I love because Tracy's now in jeans and tennis shoes, but she's up there like So Moss argues against this plan.

[709] He says the waves are too rocky for them to actually safely get onto lifeboats right now.

[710] And especially in the middle of the night, there's no electricity on the boat, which means they'll be in pitch blackness outside with 30 foot waves.

[711] If there's whatever 30 foot waves, I'd rather be on a giant boat than a little fucking thingy.

[712] That's right.

[713] So Moss is saying as long as the boat isn't taking on water, it's best to just wait out the storm until morning and get towed into shore in the light of day.

[714] But Captain Evranus has assured Lorraine the boat is not sinking, but he still stands by his plan to abandon ship.

[715] Okay, bro.

[716] Good luck.

[717] Not peace.

[718] You're just like, hmm, it feels like there's a piece missing here, sir.

[719] Later days.

[720] And so something feels fishy to Moss.

[721] I knew something was fishy because I've already read this story, but Moss knew because he knew.

[722] Got it.

[723] So he grabs another entertainer, his name Julian Butler, and he's the magician, which this is like really firming up to be a great, you know, Ocean's 11 style survival story.

[724] It also sounds like a joke that the musician and the, never mind, ship singer walk into a bar or ship or a lounge.

[725] okay yep well and you were really close but it's the musician and the magician get together shit right you're right next to it so moss and julian the magician sneak down below deck towards the engine room to investigate the situation for themselves because they're like we don't like we don't like this how this is adding up as they make their way through the dark eerie abandoned underbelly of the ship, they find everything to be dry, which is a good sign.

[726] But then as they get deeper through the passageway, they discover that a set of watertight doors are closed and sealing off an entire section of the ship.

[727] The doors are holding.

[728] So if there's a leak, it's clearly safely contained on the other side.

[729] But if Moss and Julian opened the door to find out they risk flooding the ship.

[730] So they collect all that information.

[731] They run back.

[732] up to the upper decks to tell Lorraine what they saw, only to find members of the crew lowering lifeboats onto the embarkation deck and climbing in alongside women and children.

[733] So there's crew members that are like, I'm out of here and I don't care what the rules are, which is insanely gross.

[734] Make way.

[735] Still, Captain Avranas insists the ship isn't sinking and that the lifeboats are just a precaution and no alarm has sounded and no emergency announcement has been made.

[736] made still.

[737] So at this point, any trust that Moss may have had and the captain is gone.

[738] He goes below deck again, this time armed with a video camera, and as he reaches the lower deck, he hears a rush of water.

[739] He peers around the corner of the stairwell landing and sees it for himself, proof this ship is indeed sinking.

[740] Why didn't he tell anyone he didn't want to, like, why didn't the captain say that?

[741] I don't know.

[742] I don't know.

[743] You don't want anyone to panic?

[744] I don't know.

[745] Yeah, I guess he just couldn't deal.

[746] I don't know.

[747] So Moss runs back to the upper deck.

[748] He sees Lorraine.

[749] She tells Moss to come with her to the bridge.

[750] And he follows and brings Julian.

[751] And when they get there, the captain and his senior officers are nowhere to be found.

[752] They're not at the bridge where the emergency radio is, where you're steering the ship.

[753] No, it's all, they're all gone.

[754] Okay.

[755] So it turns out that the entertainment crew, have been left to evacuate the ship on their own.

[756] Fuck.

[757] Yeah.

[758] Imagine that feeling.

[759] You're like, sorry, me and the magician are going to do this.

[760] You know us.

[761] These are seafaring fucking entertainers.

[762] At least he has a hat.

[763] Okay, so I'll tell you really quick about the MTS Oceanus.

[764] It was originally built as a passenger cargo ship in 1957.

[765] No. Uh -huh.

[766] And it was named the Jean -Leabeau.

[767] the ship changes hands and names at least four times over the next decade, and then finally in 1976, it's sold for the last time.

[768] It ends up with a Greek shipping company that manages cargo ships, tanker vessels, and cruise ships called Epirotiki Lines.

[769] I'm definitely not pronouncing that, right?

[770] Epirotiki Lines renames the ship, the Oceanus, and renovates it to operate solely as a cruise liner.

[771] By 1988, the cruise tour business, sees such a boom in South Africa that the company TFC tours of Johannesburg charters the oceanus for eight months prompting the ship's 1991 journey.

[772] So that's just kind of basically how it got here and the fact that like cruise ships were and taking cruises was really popular, but this ship may not have been the best in the biz.

[773] Can we can you and I and everyone listening agree that we won't get on a cruise ship that is more than a quarter of our age everyone's that's good that's a great agreement I feel like the newer the better but also the idea and we've talked I think we've talked about this before because I went on a cruise with my parents my parents used to work on cruise ships and that's how they met but the one time there was a storm yeah and I was like I need to get off this thing right now it was so scary to me And it wasn't bad at all.

[774] It was just a little bit of, it's not turbulence on a ship.

[775] Rocking?

[776] Yeah, I mean.

[777] Turbulance.

[778] I mean, there's a word for it.

[779] But like, it's so, I don't want to be on the ocean in bad times.

[780] I've never been on a cruise.

[781] Unless it's on the Rhine or some like calm river where I get to go to the fucking alpines or whatever the fuck.

[782] Hell yeah.

[783] The alpines.

[784] I don't know what that means.

[785] I, is that a bard, your wife, the rind?

[786] I don't want to fucking get on a giant boat.

[787] I don't.

[788] And then the ocean is like, can we stop pretending we know the ocean so well that we can just fuck around on it and do what we want?

[789] Like, please stop it.

[790] Guys, fucking here be monsters.

[791] I said it before.

[792] We know less about the depths of the deepest depths of the ocean than we about motherfucking space.

[793] Yes.

[794] You know what I mean?

[795] Yes.

[796] Which also don't make me start arguing why that means the Loch Ness monster is real.

[797] Okay.

[798] I believe it.

[799] Okay.

[800] So the Oceania's racks up thousands of miles of travel between 1976 and 1991, and it's got the wear and tear to show for it.

[801] There's loose hole plates, and there's an ill -fitted ventilation pipe creating a 10 -centimeter hole in what's supposed to be a walled barrier, aka the bulkhead.

[802] between the ship's generator and the sewage tank.

[803] So they're supposed to be just a straight -up wall, as you would imagine, with no 10 -centrometer holes in it.

[804] So the ship's sewage system is also in need of repair.

[805] After all the showers and toilets across the entire ship start overflowing with bilge water on a voyage to Mozambique in the early 90s, and as a result, several of the non -return valves on the sewage, holding tank are removed for repair.

[806] But unfortunately, those repairs are not made by the time the Oceanus sets sail for Durban on August 3, 1991, which explains why at around 9 .30 p .m. On the day that we're talking about, the ship's engineer hears an explosion coming from the engine room.

[807] When he goes to inspect it, he finds water pouring into the generator room through the hole.

[808] This flood quickly shorts out the generators and cuts the power to the entire ship, including the engine.

[809] So when all the lights went off and they had to do their acoustics sing along, there was no engine power at that point.

[810] Cool.

[811] The whole ship was dead.

[812] Was this sewage water or just water water?

[813] It's sounding to me like sewage is in the mix here.

[814] Yeah.

[815] Can I just say more like oceanus?

[816] I mean, that's your choice.

[817] Stephen, edit that out.

[818] I was juvenile and I refuse.

[819] No, you can do it.

[820] I'm not.

[821] No. I refuse.

[822] That's right, Steven, stand up as the editor.

[823] Fine.

[824] Leave it.

[825] Leave it.

[826] But I take no responsibility for that.

[827] You delivered it with such confidence you're like, can I just say?

[828] Yeah.

[829] No, I was proud of it.

[830] And then you had a blank face.

[831] And I was like, don't do that.

[832] But I was just going to say you because you go, can I just say?

[833] And then I was like, you can, but this is a permanent record.

[834] Yeah, but that's on you.

[835] Of our time.

[836] Email Georgia Hartstark at my favorite murder .com.

[837] At anuspunz .com.

[838] Okay.

[839] So as the water rises in the engine room and makes its way through that hole that was left open from the unfitted ventilation pipe, and it starts flooding the waste disposal.

[840] tank.

[841] The engineer is able to seal off this section of the ship with those water -type doors, but once that water infiltrates the waste disposal tank, the water begins to overflow through all of the showers, sinks and toilets in the lower levels, ultimately leading to widespread flooding.

[842] So I think what happened is because the lower levels are usually where the crew lives.

[843] And so all of their toilets and showers started flooding with wastewater, and they were like, this ain't good we're out yeah i think that's that i'm that but that is my absolutely yeah amateur math that i'm doing you're an electrical engineer aren't you right and i don't want to brag about that but it's high time i did 220 221 whatever it takes you're you what movies what movies that from oh uh wait say it again 220 221 whatever it takes no mr mom too old i i loved it, but I don't remember that.

[844] I did love Mr. Mom.

[845] Go on.

[846] Okay.

[847] So it's standard procedure in an emergency like this for the ship's crew to close the lower deck portholes to prevent water from climbing any higher.

[848] However, because most of the crew panics in this situation, they forget this crucial step.

[849] Instead, they run and grab their belongings and rush to the embarkation deck to save themselves.

[850] I mean, it's just like natural, your natural reaction, right?

[851] Like, what if you're like?

[852] Yeah, I mean, if you, but the thing is if you're a passenger, but if you work on the ship.

[853] Yeah, but you get paid minimum wage and you get a fucking shitty ass room and just share with some fucking guy who smells who also works there.

[854] True, but it's that thing of like if you, if you're sitting in the exit row and they go, hey, do you agree to help with this door?

[855] you go, yep, then you've agreed to help with the door.

[856] You don't, then when there's an emergency, go, sorry, that's too much for me. Because you already agreed.

[857] So, like, yeah, all they're asking them to do is close the portholes.

[858] Some basics.

[859] Got it.

[860] Shut some shit down.

[861] So everyone else doesn't die.

[862] And it's like, forget it.

[863] I have to grab my precious Hummel figurines and run to the embarkation deck.

[864] Fair enough.

[865] Maybe that's oversimplifying things.

[866] Okay.

[867] Okay, so this means that Moss, Tracy, Lorraine, and the other entertainers are left to lead the evacuation efforts themselves.

[868] Wow.

[869] They lower the lifeboats and organized groups of 99 to board them.

[870] That's the maximum capacity on these lifeboats.

[871] Wow.

[872] But as they're trying to do this, the storm and the ocean swells are causing the lifeboats to swing out and then come crashing back against the ship.

[873] So they try their best to keep the lifeboats pressed tight against the ship by placing.

[874] one foot on the ship and one foot on the lifeboat and then trying to get as many people onto the lifeboat before it swings away again and as well.

[875] So you can imagine this is, it's not like standard kind of evacuation process.

[876] This is like emergency evacuation.

[877] Moss keeps running downstairs to check how high the water level is getting.

[878] And once it's high enough, he decides it's time to move the passengers who are now all gathered in the main lounge waiting to get brought out to the lifeboat area, he now decides they have to come out onto the open deck, even though it's cold and wet.

[879] At least no one's going to get trapped inside if the boat actually starts to sink.

[880] So now it's three in the morning, and Tracy and the rest of the evacuation team are lowering the last available lifeboat into the water.

[881] There's nearly 300 people left on board.

[882] And the few crew members, who are left now shove their way through the waiting passengers, they get on this lifeboat, and they try to lower it down even though there's only 50 people on it.

[883] Guys.

[884] Lorraine and Moss start arguing with them saying, if they're going to do this, they at least have to fill the lifeboat all the way before departing.

[885] And by starting this argument, it buys them time to load 20 more people onto the lifeboat before the crew members take back control and lower it down.

[886] into the sea.

[887] There are only 70 people on this lifeboat.

[888] I take back what I said about them escaping.

[889] Right?

[890] Yeah.

[891] You can't do that.

[892] Also, I think that that energy, like the panic energy, you know how pilots are always like the most dead, dead pan?

[893] And I think it's because panic energy is catching.

[894] Once one person starts to panic, everyone goes, it's every man for himself.

[895] You just got to go fucking do our thing.

[896] Right.

[897] And it's like if you're going to work on the ship, you have to do your part to keep people calm yourself and other people, or it just is mayhem.

[898] Well, I think that the panic being catching to, or, you know, what's it called when you catch something, the being chill is as well.

[899] So if you're like the chill guy and if you're fucking Vince Averill and not panicking that you're missing your flight, you and Karen and Georgia are missing your flight, then we're not going to panic either.

[900] Right.

[901] Exactly.

[902] Yeah.

[903] It's a, it's a control.

[904] I mean, it's not an easy thing to do as we've watched Vince Averl not panic in many situations.

[905] When he got, when he had weed in his pocket in fucking Amsterdam at the airport.

[906] Man, that was scary.

[907] Oh, that was Sarah.

[908] Man. Man, that was scary.

[909] He was chill.

[910] He sent us on a head without him.

[911] You don't know.

[912] You said, you don't know me. Go get on the plane.

[913] shit okay while this evacuation whole process was taking place moss lorraine and julian were all taking turns running to the bridge to send out distress signals on the radio so each one would like go when the other ones were trying to load people onto the lifebook so insane so after several attempts moss finally makes contact with a captain detmar on a nearby ship called the ned lloyd meridus So Captain Detmar, a calm, level -headed, experienced seaman, asks Moss a bunch of technical questions to assess the situation, like their, quote, exact position, how many people were still on board, our angle of lean, and our current strengths.

[914] When Moss is unable to answer any of these questions, Captain Detmar asks Moss what his rank aboard the ship is.

[915] And Moss responds, I'm not any rank.

[916] I'm a guitarist.

[917] Oh, my God.

[918] And then Captain Detmar looks into the camera and says, I'm getting too old for this shit.

[919] No. Oh, no, sorry.

[920] Karen, I'm sorry.

[921] Karen being a sitcom writer over here.

[922] I have to.

[923] I have to.

[924] I'm not above it.

[925] Oceanus.

[926] Look, we're all the same.

[927] We're all the same in the comedy.

[928] Okay, so knowing this technical information is obviously essential to organizing the rescue.

[929] of the sinking of the sinking ship.

[930] So Moss starts to search the ship for Captain Avranas because he's like he's still on here somewhere because he knows who's left.

[931] He finally finds him on the pool deck huddled under a staircase smoking a cigarette.

[932] What the fuck?

[933] Ding dong.

[934] Right?

[935] He's melting down.

[936] He's, it's fight, flight, or freeze.

[937] Right.

[938] Or smoke.

[939] Or smoke under a fucking set of stairs.

[940] So Moss pleads with the captain to come back to the bridge and talk to Detmar and give him this crucial information, but Averonis refuses to go.

[941] So Moss is forced to run back and forth across the rocking slippery deck, getting answers from Averanus, and then running back to the bridge to report those answers to Captain Detmar on the radio.

[942] How fucking ridiculous is that?

[943] The last, perhaps most crucial estimate the Captain Averanis gives to Moss is how much time he thinks they have left before the ship goes completely underwater.

[944] And that is about two to three hours.

[945] Oh, no. So now it's four in the morning.

[946] And with Captain Detmar's help, they have a rescue plan in place.

[947] Helicopters from the South African Air Force are going to be sent to airlift the remaining 220 passengers off the.

[948] boat.

[949] Divers from the South African Navy are going to be in position in the water around the boat to rescue anyone who might go overboard.

[950] And in the meantime, the Ned Lloyd Meritus and several other ships in the area will form a wide circle around the oceanus.

[951] They won't be too close because the sea is still choppy and they don't want to run into the boat, but they'll, they basically will be close enough to pick up anyone who goes into the water.

[952] So Moss and Lorraine decide to split up the group of remaining passengers and set up helicopter rescue sites on the four deck and on the rear deck.

[953] Performer Robin Boltman stays on the bridge to maintain contact with the surrounding ships.

[954] So Robin Boltman is on the radio.

[955] The first helicopters arrive about 6 .30 in the morning.

[956] Captain Averanis, who's basically been useless this whole time, smoking, whatnot.

[957] He boards the second helicopter and abandoned ship at 7 .8.

[958] come on he so he kind of elbow is his way he's just like I gotta go yeah the entertainment staff directs the rest of the evacuation alone like no one's shocked however fuck this shit however what the living fuck truly um rescue helicopters drop down rope harnesses and moss and Tracy load passengers into the harnesses two at a time So Moss, Tracy, all of those people.

[959] The band, like, it's literally the entertainers, the magician, singers, people who have no fucking training.

[960] It's like, oh my God.

[961] So insane.

[962] Doing it.

[963] So at this point, the ship is fully sinking.

[964] The deck is sloped at a steep angle, and the ship is rolling onto its starboard side, which is its right side.

[965] Port is left, starboard is right after.

[966] is the back, four is the front.

[967] I looked it up on Google.

[968] Damn, girl.

[969] Right?

[970] We must learn as we as we tell these stories.

[971] So now it's a race against the clock to get everyone airlifted off this before the ship goes completely underwater.

[972] As the passengers are lifted up to the helicopter, their swinging limbs are knocking moths around and more than once he has to grab the deck railing to keep himself from falling off the ship by getting knocked by them.

[973] thankless at one point the harness itself gets stuck on the side of the ship as the helicopter team is lowering it back down and with the ship rolling and bobbing still in the waves if it dipped down too far it could pull the helicopter into the sea so moss hangs over the side of the ship to free the harness and save the helicopter and that's when tracy loses her shit on her husband yeah and she's like do not what are you doing We made it this far.

[974] And so she makes him tie a rope around his waist and then to the deck railing so that he stops risking his life every goddamn second, which I entirely agree with her.

[975] Finally, there's just 15 people left aboard, 12 male passengers, Moss and Tracy, who is the last female crew member or entertainer on the ship, and Robin still holding it down on the bridge.

[976] So they all get ready for their turn to be evacuated.

[977] Oh, and by the way, at one point it did say that most of the entertainment crew were female.

[978] So all of these very brave men waited until the very end.

[979] Yeah.

[980] But most of the entertainment crew that were running this evacuation were women.

[981] Amazing.

[982] Who stayed till all the passengers were off.

[983] So these guys all get ready for their turn to be evacuated when the helicopters leave.

[984] Bye -bye.

[985] so the last 15 people are clinging to a more steeply sloped deck they have to wait 45 minutes with moss at one point suggesting that they all climb over the railing and they wait on the ship's side because that's now flatter than the deck is so the decks like this and the side of the ship they kind of go out and walk on there finally the helicopters return and on August 4 1991, Tracy, Moss, Robin, and the final group of passengers are all airlifted to safety.

[986] Shortly after about 3 .30 p .m. that day, the Oceanus rolls over to its starboard side and sinks to the ocean floor below.

[987] So, in an incredible display of bravery and calm, Moss, Tracy, Lorraine, and the rest of the entertainers managed to save every single passenger and crew member from the sink.

[988] drinking Oceanus.

[989] Holy shit.

[990] And Moss and Tracy make it out unscathed, although because of Moss's intense exhaustion and his dehydration, because remember, he didn't really sleep the couple nights before because they're late nights.

[991] So he was totally dehydrated.

[992] He got to get put on a hydration drip at the hospital after being rescued.

[993] But other than that, they were fine.

[994] Oh, my God.

[995] As for Captain Avranas and his crew, they are alive, but they're not well.

[996] They received tons of criticism for essentially abandoning their passengers along with the ship.

[997] He and four of his key crew members are evaluated by a Greek inquiry board and prosecuted for betraying their responsibilities of a ship's master.

[998] But they don't see prison time.

[999] And the captain continues to captain's ships until he retires.

[1000] And Captain Avranas maintains that he left quickly so that he could help coordinate the evacuation efforts from the helicopter.

[1001] He actually made a public statement saying, quote, when I give the order to abandon ship, it doesn't matter what time I leave.

[1002] If some people want to stay, they can stay.

[1003] Want to stay?

[1004] You know what?

[1005] I'm going to continue my vacation on this fucking ship here.

[1006] Listen, if these hippies want to hang out on this ship, that ain't my problem.

[1007] I got to go.

[1008] Yeah.

[1009] Yeah.

[1010] Cool.

[1011] So after an experience like that, you would think that Moss Hills would be all done with working on cruise ships.

[1012] But he's not.

[1013] He continues to work as a cruise ship entertainer.

[1014] He continues to do so.

[1015] And in fact, three years after the sinking of the Oceanus, he is working aboard a ship called the MS.

[1016] Akeel Laro, which is a luxury clerest liner traveling from Italy to South Africa.

[1017] This ship has 979 passengers and crew members.

[1018] on board, almost twice the capacity of the ill -fated ocean.

[1019] I mentioned this detail because wouldn't you know it, as they're sailing 125 miles off the coast of Somalia, a boiler explodes in the ship's engine room and engulfs it in fire.

[1020] But because none of the crew members are nearby when this explosion occurs, it goes unnoticed.

[1021] And soon the fire spreads from the boiler room out to the rest of the ship.

[1022] And by the time the crew realizes what's happening and try to put the fire out, it's too late.

[1023] No. So instead, they try to contain the fire by closing the fireproof watertight doors, but they know this plan can only hold for so long.

[1024] So the fire begins to consume this cruise ship.

[1025] Are we starting all over again?

[1026] Yes.

[1027] Once again, the entertainment director, this time a woman named Nadia Eckerd, It must play a key role in organizing the evacuation efforts.

[1028] What was Moss like?

[1029] Moss was like, are you fucking kidding me?

[1030] Moss like pushes his way through everybody and goes right up to Nadia Eckerd and goes, yeah, you're going to actually want to use me for this because I know, I know some stuff.

[1031] Or is he like, I'm first on the rescue boats this time.

[1032] Go fuck yourself.

[1033] He's like, I learned my lesson being a good guy last time.

[1034] No, actually he, uh, guitar hero Moss Hill.

[1035] has all the crucial information needed to organize the crowd and keep everyone calm and basically go like, here's what we're going to do.

[1036] And they really did.

[1037] They know that the communication is crucial.

[1038] And on this ship, there's passengers from all over.

[1039] It's a really diverse group.

[1040] So they start breaking the groups up by nationality so that nobody gets, nobody has a language barrier.

[1041] Right.

[1042] So basically keeping everybody together so there's always people who can communicate to everybody else if they don't speak the language of the person that's trying to help them.

[1043] Amazing.

[1044] And right.

[1045] And so that everyone can constantly be made aware of what's happening because in this situation for this evacuation, it's not a slow sink.

[1046] It's a fucking fire.

[1047] So they're on a serious clock.

[1048] One of the entertainers described how it felt ushering passengers into lifeboats with a fire approaching saying, quote, all the paint was peeling off the wall and we were struggling to get them in fast enough.

[1049] And suddenly you could feel the heat right behind you.

[1050] It was a very frightening moment.

[1051] Wow.

[1052] So the nearest vessel that's able to take on evacuees is an oil tanker called the Hawaiian King.

[1053] And it's just a little bit funny because this oil tanker pulls up And because this evacuation started during like a party at night, a formal party, almost all the passengers are wearing formal wear as they exit the cruise ship and get onto the oil tanker.

[1054] And eventually other boats come to aid in the rescue, including U .S. naval ships.

[1055] Unfortunately, in this evacuation, two elderly passengers die and eight others are injured.

[1056] But miraculously, 968 souls make it.

[1057] off the burning cruise ship alive, including the soul of Moss Hills, making this his second cruise ship sinking survival in three years.

[1058] Dude, enough.

[1059] In 2000, Moss and Tracy Hill and their daughter move from South Africa to the UK, Tracy opens her own business designing and making jewelry, leaving her life at sea for good.

[1060] But Moss does the opposite.

[1061] He puts all his emergency evacuation rescue skills to good use and becomes a cruise director.

[1062] Yay!

[1063] I love it.

[1064] He says that now captains listen to him very closely.

[1065] Yeah, they do.

[1066] Although once a week, he goes back to performing music.

[1067] Sweet Carolyn.

[1068] Gurgle, gurgle, gurgle.

[1069] Yes, if you want to listen to Moss Hill's first -hand account of the survival, the sinking of the oceanus, Please listen to Snap Judgment.

[1070] The episode is called Down with the Ship.

[1071] And that is the unbelievable story of two -time sinking cruise ship survivor Moss Hills and his incredibly brave wife, Tracy.

[1072] Wow.

[1073] Look for the helpers, right?

[1074] I mean.

[1075] As Mr. Rogers said, look for the fucking helper.

[1076] He didn't say the F word, but look for the helpers.

[1077] Look for the helpers and keep your eye out for the people.

[1078] the captain smoking cigarettes and the fire on the cruise that you're on.

[1079] Try to keep it aware of explosions especially if you're if you work down in the boiler room.

[1080] Just don't go to sleep if you're on a cruise.

[1081] Keep your eyes open at all times.

[1082] And don't be afraid to communicate even when it's bad news.

[1083] I know it can be hard but go ahead and run that bad news straight up to somebody with the radio as soon as you can.

[1084] It's all about being vulnerable, as Brunay Brown would say, like, you know, be vulnerable to be like, hey, this ship is sinking.

[1085] Hey, I have a lot of fear around the sinking of this ship that's happening right now that you know how a lot of fear about as well.

[1086] Let's talk about it on the lifeboat.

[1087] Great job.

[1088] Fuck, man. That was great.

[1089] So the sources for this story, there's a website that Moss actually put together himself.

[1090] it's called www