Armchair Anonymous: Forbidden Love

[0] Welcome, welcome, welcome to Armchared Anonymous.

[1] We're up and running and we're going to be bringing these to you hot and fresh.

[2] That's right.

[3] Every Friday you're going to get some stories.

[4] They're also good.

[5] They really are.

[6] And it's just been such a joy for us to get to chat with our friends.

[7] I know.

[8] There's just not a dud in the audience.

[9] I mean, maybe one exists, but certainly we have yet to meet them.

[10] Yeah.

[11] There's some really great stories in here.

[12] There are.

[13] This week's prompt, just to remind everyone, was tell us about.

[14] how you are in love with someone you aren't supposed to be in love with.

[15] We have three great guests and without signaling out any one of them, my mind was blown.

[16] I was listening and I thought could this possibly be true and it is 100 % true in my belief and it was mind expanding.

[17] Agreed.

[18] I've retold the story about 25 times already.

[19] I'm not surprised.

[20] So please enjoy this week's Armchair Anonymous.

[21] Wondry Plus subscribers can listen to Armchair Expert early and ad free right now.

[22] Join Wondry Plus in the Wondry app or on Apple Podcasts.

[23] Or you can listen for free wherever you get your podcasts.

[24] Are you ready, money?

[25] Yeah.

[26] I can't.

[27] I can't process this.

[28] I just throwing that out there right now.

[29] We're so excited.

[30] Let's take five seconds and just process and stare at each other.

[31] Oh, my God.

[32] I don't know if I can handle that.

[33] Oh, my stars.

[34] First of all, you have a rocking headset on.

[35] Yes, this is my boyfriend, which I thought was hilarious because I was like, so I'm going to meet Dax and Monica.

[36] And he was like, wow, that's so cool.

[37] Why?

[38] And I was like, to talk about a guy that I've got like a major.

[39] crush on that I'm like not supposed to be in love with.

[40] Oh my gosh.

[41] I love it.

[42] Before we get into this, I do want to thank you for doing this because I do know this topic specifically requires a lot of vulnerability and is perhaps exciting, heartbreaking.

[43] I don't know.

[44] There's all kinds of things that come with it.

[45] So we really appreciate you sharing.

[46] Oh my gosh.

[47] I appreciate you listening.

[48] Also, Monica has the little C. I don't know if you can hear it in her voice.

[49] I heard.

[50] I listened to your episode today.

[51] I wasn't sure when you did the fact that.

[52] Yeah.

[53] Guys, I listen.

[54] I want to be your best friends.

[55] And I'm sure you figure out all the time.

[56] And you guys are like, oh, we love therapists.

[57] And I'm like, I'm a therapist.

[58] Oh.

[59] We probably would love to be best friends with you.

[60] Yeah.

[61] I hope that it involves a patient.

[62] Oh, you know it does.

[63] Oh, my gosh.

[64] Dive right in, please.

[65] Okay, so usually I'm a child therapist and I just started a new job at a place where I see kids and adults.

[66] I'm 30.

[67] This guy's a new -ish client.

[68] I've been seeing him for about a month and he's 32.

[69] I'm a social worker so I have like no money and I'm grinding real hard to get some.

[70] And he took one of our calls in his Tesla and I was just like, what?

[71] What?

[72] Like, outrageous.

[73] And when he finally fixed his phone, I was like, oh, shit.

[74] Like, he is beautiful.

[75] Like, Dax, you would not have been able to have a conversation with him without, like, commenting on it.

[76] You think you regularly heard me say, I couldn't have that job because I'm prone to fall in love with people.

[77] Yeah.

[78] And it's very intimate.

[79] The most.

[80] It has to happen nonstop and just no one's honest about it.

[81] Yeah.

[82] You pretend that there's not two humans involved.

[83] Like, we can't.

[84] switching to robot mode.

[85] Anyways, I'm getting ahead of myself.

[86] Okay, so he's in a Tesla and he's foin.

[87] Beautiful.

[88] Yes, not obnoxiously beautiful, but you can tell he works out and takes care of himself, like in that just super casual way.

[89] Oh, yeah.

[90] And he's like depressed.

[91] But then he starts talking and he has like this little smile.

[92] And I just, I have to pull up my entry because I'm literally shaking that I'm like I just want to make sure that you guys get to hear it okay I'm already in though by the way my heart's already swelling I already have butterflies I'm actually enamored with him and so we start working together and I learned that he loves the same hippie -dippy stuff that I do like yoga meditation and he's like one of my favorite things in life is just like having deep meaningful conversations with people not just like how's the weather he's like that shit doesn't matter.

[93] And I was like, same.

[94] Like, that's why I'm a therapist.

[95] Like, everybody is supposed to talk to me about all that stuff.

[96] Sounds like he would love armchair expert, by the way.

[97] Yeah, maybe you recommend it.

[98] Slip it in.

[99] Yeah, yeah, just slide it in.

[100] Since we're blurring the lines.

[101] I was like, he probably listens to this.

[102] Who knows?

[103] My cavewoman brain just goes a little crazy.

[104] And every time I meet with him, it just gets worse.

[105] So I had him today.

[106] It looked like you were floating a little bit when we saw you at first.

[107] Yeah.

[108] It looked like I had like a bad concealer job on.

[109] Actually, right now, you can see it too because I was blushing.

[110] I was just so like excited.

[111] Oh, my God.

[112] So he was talking about like, oh, you know, I really enjoyed people.

[113] And like, honestly, lately, the only person that brings me joy is you.

[114] And so he started saying things that are appropriate to say to a therapist.

[115] Yeah.

[116] But can all.

[117] also be read a different way.

[118] Like, you know, talking to you is like nothing else and like I really don't want to lose you.

[119] All these things that can be construed a certain way.

[120] And I have been thinking about terminating because as a social worker, there are ethics.

[121] And so if you're attracted to somebody that gets in the way, like I'm already noticing it, get in the way of our therapeutic relationship because I'm like, oh, does he think I'm cute or like, you know?

[122] Yeah, you're trying to impress him in some way.

[123] Yes.

[124] Well, I have to imagine you're spending 40 minutes with outfit selection on days.

[125] You know you're going to be talking to him.

[126] Actually, no. I pretty intentionally try not to think about it, which is why I almost didn't write in about this.

[127] Because I was like, I don't want to spend more time thinking about him.

[128] And honestly, that's partly why I have a hard time, like verbalizing how I feel because I'm like, I'm trying to put as much space between me and those feelings as possible, but he did tell me that he's going to be moving to a different state.

[129] And because I'm a social worker, I can only work with clients within my state.

[130] How far away is the state he's moving to without giving away the location?

[131] Across the United States.

[132] Oh.

[133] Okay.

[134] Okay.

[135] Now I'm your therapist.

[136] You ready?

[137] Okay.

[138] And these are going to be hard hitting.

[139] Is he married?

[140] No. Well, that's great news.

[141] Yeah.

[142] I have on my third year of like a super happy, secure relationship.

[143] This is my boyfriend's headset.

[144] Right.

[145] Okay.

[146] You said that and you told him that this is what you were doing today.

[147] Yeah.

[148] And what was his response?

[149] He was like, I don't care.

[150] And I don't say that as in like, I don't give a shit, but just like it doesn't bother me. And honestly, part of me was like, why not?

[151] Why aren't you jealous?

[152] God.

[153] And then I was like, oh yeah, that's why I love him.

[154] This sounds like Brie and I a little bit.

[155] Oh, really?

[156] Well, yeah.

[157] Like, there was really no secrets about that kind of stuff.

[158] And I just was kind of steadfast and like, yeah, people have crushes.

[159] They pass.

[160] That's life.

[161] But then there is a little part of you potentially that wants jealousy a little bit from your partner sometimes.

[162] I mean, that's bad probably.

[163] Like intellectually, I can say that's bad.

[164] But emotionally, sometimes you want that.

[165] I think it's safer to say the opposite.

[166] You don't want your partner to not.

[167] care if you're not going to be together.

[168] But I don't think you should conflate the two.

[169] That's true.

[170] Because some people do get off on making their partner jealous.

[171] They need that kind of approval.

[172] And I do think that's really destructive.

[173] Literally not healthy.

[174] Right.

[175] Okay, I have so many thoughts.

[176] Also, have you considered the notion that like this might fit into a beautiful pattern that feels familiar to you.

[177] Like, do you have anyone you love deeply?

[178] Do you have, let's just say, a dad maybe who has some depression?

[179] Honestly, no. Like, there's no Freudian thing that I can think of.

[180] He's just cute as hell.

[181] You felt connected.

[182] I will say I've always struggled with the feeling of belonging.

[183] And that's something that he's struggling with.

[184] So maybe that's like I want I look at me. Yeah, there's no Freudian thing.

[185] Anyway, here's what it is.

[186] So like I think I've always wanted people to latch on to me, wanted people to like me constantly looking for approval.

[187] So my parents had me pretty much immediately got divorced and married.

[188] other people and started other families.

[189] All the other kids were full time with your parents and you were only half time.

[190] Yeah, pretty much.

[191] Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[192] And so it's like our family plus Holly.

[193] You're the third wheel in both families.

[194] Yeah.

[195] And so it's really difficult because I am such like an empathetic, loving person.

[196] I mean, I'm a therapist.

[197] Like people are my thing.

[198] I always wanted that full love.

[199] Not to say that I didn't get it, but it didn't always feel like.

[200] it for me. Yeah.

[201] And so when I see other people struggling, especially when they're super attractive and I'm getting PQs in the middle of my job.

[202] Like not joking, had to change my underwear ones.

[203] Oh my God.

[204] I love this.

[205] Oh my God.

[206] Yeah.

[207] Okay.

[208] I have a couple more hard -hitting questions.

[209] Go for it.

[210] Also, you're being so honest.

[211] Thank you.

[212] You are.

[213] You are.

[214] I love this.

[215] I do think often, like, if there is room for that in your relationship, could point to something that, and I don't want to say missing because there's just a natural ebb and flow of the three -year -long relationship.

[216] So I think one, I would imagine to know someone need you, they're even telling you you're the only person I can talk to.

[217] That level of need is really the thing you would have wanted from either family set.

[218] They loved when you were there, but it felt, I'm sure, like they didn't need you.

[219] But by the way, nobody needs anyone.

[220] That's just the truth but we all want that but no one really needs anyone ultimately but i see the appeal for sure so this what i'm saying like the perfect kind of like background meets perfect kind of situation yeah and then i also think like when you first meet i don't know your your fellow of three years i assume the first six seven months it's like i can't breathe without you i need to be with you i need to live with you i need And then things settle down and it can start to feel like, I don't, does this dude need me?

[221] You know, do I need him?

[222] Does he need me?

[223] And it might just be like a dose of someone needing you a lot that's so appealing.

[224] And just knowing that you're that important to somebody, it feels wonderful.

[225] I mean, I think, Dax, probably you too, Monica, could, like, sit here all day and listen to, like, my ex stories because I figured shit out about myself through my past relationships.

[226] Like, I dated a drug addict.

[227] I didn't know for a little bit until, like, he told me. And I knew something was off, but I was always making excuses, et cetera.

[228] He cheated on me, lied all the time.

[229] And then my next guy, it was like three months of just, like, intense, magnetic passion.

[230] Probably will never have better sex in my entire life.

[231] And, like, I'm fine with that because, like, his emotional maturity was, like, on the floor.

[232] Yeah.

[233] And the addict needs that relationship really bad because it's the only.

[234] stable thing in their life.

[235] Yeah.

[236] So like anytime he thought he was going to lose me, he was like extra needy and would do like anything.

[237] And I feel like anybody likes that and be like, oh, wow, you do that for me, little old me. For sure.

[238] Yeah.

[239] Well, I think the universe or whatever we all believe in, like maybe intervene.

[240] The fact that he's moving away feels really fun.

[241] Everything woke up downstairs.

[242] We're online.

[243] We had the wonderful feelings.

[244] You were.

[245] needed by somebody and then perhaps the greatest thing ever is happening is the dude just going to disappear yeah i mean we'll see this might need a follow -up seriously yeah like when you're in town like just need a check -in well that's the thing too is like because of the ethics around it i was starting to think about like how am i going to tell my boss that i need to terminate with this client and he needs to see somebody else who can be more what's the word objective yeah Yeah.

[246] And then when he told me he was leaving, and I was like, oh, thank God, I can like still, I don't have to tell my boss that I'm getting PQs at work.

[247] Yeah.

[248] My boss is a straight married man and I just feel like it would be uncomfortable.

[249] I'm sure he's experienced it more than you think.

[250] That's true.

[251] I was going to say, if I were you, my fear of telling him would be, oh, he's going to think I'm prone to this and lose faith in me. But I'll tell you, if I were the dude, I would say, oh, my God, I trust.

[252] person so much they tell on themselves they're willing to do the right thing like rarely does someone get to demonstrate their character as profoundly as that and i i really believe that would be their takeaway from that oh thank you dax that makes me feel better yeah i believe that and then i think maybe like a good takeaway in general is you're in a obviously healthy relationship currently you're with someone who isn't on a high and a low and doesn't need you to an extreme and it might just feel unfamiliar.

[253] Oh, for sure.

[254] Yeah.

[255] I mean, not anymore, but from time to time, like when I asked for the headphones or had to explain that I was going on the podcast for this again, I was like, whoa.

[256] But for the most part, almost every day, I'm like, I'm so lucky.

[257] He's constantly telling me he loves me. And I like, I feel it when he's so nice.

[258] And it's always in the stupidest moments when I'm like smoking pot or something.

[259] Oh, my God.

[260] this has been really sweet i'm really really glad you are brave enough to tell us this i really really enjoyed this yeah it was so nice to meet you guys i want to call you by your real name but holly there's about 11 000 therapists listening that are going to go uh tell me about it yeah that's what i'm hoping hopefully my honesty will help somebody i guarantee it will yeah well thank you take care bye hi hello hi hi hi there how are you are you cody yes Am I allowed to use your real name or should I call you a different name?

[261] Nope, Cody's fine.

[262] The story I'm going to share with you guys.

[263] It's actually from a while ago.

[264] It still has current implications, I suppose.

[265] Great.

[266] Where are you at in the country?

[267] I'm actually not in the country.

[268] I work remotely, so I decided to take a free -wave hiatus and play the apartment.

[269] You're so handsome.

[270] It's crazy.

[271] Oh, thank you.

[272] Right, Monica?

[273] I mean, geez, louis.

[274] Yeah, I hope it factors into the story.

[275] It has to.

[276] It has to.

[277] I think for the listeners should know that you're, I'm not allowed to say this about women, but I'm going to say you're a raging 10.

[278] Well, Dax's here with 10 for me as well.

[279] Oh, my God.

[280] This is wonderful.

[281] Wow, we love this.

[282] We love this call.

[283] Cody, please hit us with your Forbidden Love Story.

[284] So we're going back to 2010.

[285] I was between my freshman year and sophomore year of UC Santa Barbara.

[286] And over the summer, my uncle, it's actually my favorite uncle, Michael Chuck.

[287] I grew up with him.

[288] He whipped near us.

[289] He was always like the cool uncle, like had all the video games, had the pool, just, like wanted to hang out with us.

[290] I think we watched the Matrix with him for the first time where it was like 12 was great.

[291] Seminal moment.

[292] Definitely.

[293] So over that summer, he actually got married to Caroline and she had two daughters, Victoria and Olivia, from her previous marriage.

[294] And so I met all them for the first time that summer.

[295] My family, we would do a annual camping trip to Pismore Beach.

[296] We actually have a camper up there.

[297] We go every year.

[298] And so that was kind of the first time I hung out with all them.

[299] And I guess for context, Victoria is a year older than I am.

[300] Olivia is about five or six years younger than I am.

[301] And I have no sisters either.

[302] I have four brothers.

[303] So it's just all men and my family.

[304] And yeah, we just clicked, like me and their whole family.

[305] We enjoy doing all the same things.

[306] Just had such a blast hanging out for the week to the point where I actually ended up staying with them the entire summer in their house afterwards.

[307] They lived in Riverside at the time.

[308] I guess just during that time, Victoria and I just formed, like, such a strong friendship that by the end of summer, I was madly in love with her.

[309] And there was nothing I could do about it.

[310] Like, okay, yeah, she was my cousin.

[311] We weren't populated.

[312] It was tough because, like, I didn't grow up with her as my cousin.

[313] I literally just met her.

[314] But hold on.

[315] This is a cousin through marriage.

[316] She came, right?

[317] Yes.

[318] Yes.

[319] This is green lights galore.

[320] Well, one would hope.

[321] One would hope.

[322] But unfortunately, what happened was, so we're nearing the end of summer where I'm about to go back to school.

[323] I have yet to kind of profess my feelings to her.

[324] And I'm scared because I have no idea what reaction I'm going to get.

[325] So I finally get the courage to do so.

[326] I tell her.

[327] And it was so weird.

[328] It's such a weird roller coaster because after telling her, it went from we were just best friends to a little bit more than that, but not fully because she wanted to do the things you would do in relationships like cuddle and kissing and just hanging all the time, talking all the time.

[329] But she wasn't ready or open to like having a relationship or really just admitting that she wanted to or that she was open to telling her mom because she was afraid that her mom was not going to be accepting.

[330] Oh, boy.

[331] Oh, boy.

[332] So that's kind of the start.

[333] Her mom is also one of the kindest, but also one of the strictest people that I know as well.

[334] So we go into me going to school at that kind of midway point where we're halfway in between everything, I guess.

[335] And we continue that for a while.

[336] I come home and actually visit them almost every weekend while I'm at school and stay at their house.

[337] You're missing all the action on Del Playa.

[338] Exactly.

[339] I was actually okay with that, to be honest.

[340] Okay.

[341] Good.

[342] So it just kind of goes, I guess, up and down for almost a year where there's a breaking point for me where I kind of told her like, hey, I can't do this anymore because it's really tearing at my heart that we're in kind of this state of limbo.

[343] And I know that, you know, you're not necessarily feeling the same way that I am now, which is totally okay.

[344] But feeling that way and not having it reciprocated while still seeing her all the time is just really hard.

[345] Oh, it's brutal.

[346] So we had that conversation.

[347] She literally cried the entire night, cried so much that she threw up, which then led me to change my mind and say, okay, we'll kind of just keep going and I'll suffer through it.

[348] And this lasted for about a year until she finally decided that.

[349] that she was also in love with me and we were talking about our future and everything like that.

[350] But she was still scared to tell people, again, mostly because her mom, she still lived at home with her mom.

[351] Her dad hadn't been in the picture.

[352] So she was very close with her mom.

[353] And there was just that whole problem with the dynamic where she felt she had to lie to her and didn't want to.

[354] Really quick, is your cool uncle pulling you aside and going like, hey, Cody, I see what's happening here.

[355] You're in love with.

[356] No, my mom did.

[357] And my dad did.

[358] And that actually posed some problems during that year period because when my dad asked me, he asked me straight up and I told him.

[359] And when I told Victoria that I told him, she was really pissed at me. And I was like, look, I'm doing all I can for you.

[360] I'm not going to lie to my dad if he's asking me about this.

[361] And it's something that supports me. Yeah.

[362] But yeah, my mom just had kind of, I guess, you know, mother's intuition.

[363] What's up guys?

[364] It's your girl Kiki.

[365] And my podcast is back with a new season.

[366] And let me tell you It's too good, and I'm diving into the brains of entertainment's best and brightest, okay?

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[369] I mean the likes of Amy Pollard, Kell Mitchell, Vivica Fox, the list goes on.

[370] So follow, watch, and listen to Baby.

[371] This is Kiki Palmer on the Wondery app or wherever you get your podcast.

[372] We've all been there.

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[381] So anyways, you've never been there like a year and a half.

[382] We're at the point where I think we're in a relationship other than the fact that we haven't told people.

[383] And I'm at her house for the weekend before Thanksgiving.

[384] What what happened is there was a guest bedroom but I would stay in and usually we would wait until like everyone went to sleep and then I would sneak from my bedroom over to her bedroom not for anything sexual but just to have time with her alone because otherwise I was with her and her family the whole time and we couldn't be how we wanted to be together in front of them so I was in her room when we thought everyone was asleep and then frantic knocking at the door it's like one or something in the morning and it's her mom and her sister and she had locked her door so they didn't just immediately get in, but also she never locks her door.

[385] This was like a thing in their house, like none of them ever did.

[386] And I had no idea what to do is what I am.

[387] I jumped out of the bed and like I went to the closet, but like the door, like the door lock wasn't good.

[388] It got open.

[389] They saw me. It was terrible.

[390] Like, legit, like, yeah, I can laugh about it now.

[391] But at the time, it was so terrible.

[392] I didn't know what to say.

[393] I had so many feelings running through me at once.

[394] The mom feels betrayed.

[395] I'm trusting you to.

[396] stay here all the time and you have ulterior motives and well we didn't even get to that part dachs because instead it was just her yelling at me in like outright anger and i got thrown out of the house didn't really get a chance to say anything did the girl say anything we kind of got split up like i got brought downstairs with all of my stuff and got sat down at the table and just got talked or yelled at for an hour and i'm not blaming them per se like it was a weird circumstance for all of us clearly.

[397] But yeah, I just kind of got yelled at.

[398] I got pushed out the door.

[399] I texted her that night and just kind of tried to console her because I also know that she was freaking out.

[400] I was feeling terrible.

[401] I was so jittery.

[402] I remember calling my dad.

[403] It was at that point, like two or three in the morning as I was driving home.

[404] And I could barely talk.

[405] The next time I saw her again was one of her family reunions several years later because she broke up with maybe a text about a month after that.

[406] Oh my gosh.

[407] Jeez.

[408] Yeah.

[409] It's tough because obviously there's a long time period.

[410] in this.

[411] There's a lot of ups and downs.

[412] So the context is when we did get to that point of like we're in a relationship, we were talking about marriage.

[413] We were talking about kids.

[414] I was graduating early so that I could get a job to, you know, support us and so that we can move in together.

[415] And when she broke up with me via text, I flipped out and got super depressed.

[416] And it was a really tough time.

[417] It was definitely the toughest time in my life.

[418] It was also the best learning experience.

[419] But as I said, she's still part of my family.

[420] We have family reunions.

[421] I still see her.

[422] She's so weird.

[423] Is she married now or anything?

[424] Yeah, I learned that we definitely weren't the right people for each other because she was, it was either engaged or married within a year after we broke up.

[425] I'm assuming it was engaged because that makes more sense.

[426] But I didn't date anyone until somewhere between three or four years afterwards.

[427] I just had no desire to.

[428] This is heartbreaking.

[429] Yeah.

[430] That's heartbreaking because there's no reason.

[431] Who cares?

[432] To your point, that I did finally get to sit down with my aunt and my uncle, maybe a year or two after it happened.

[433] I had sent them a letter like a month afterwards, just trying to kind of explain what happened in my part and my peace and everything that didn't apparently go over well.

[434] I didn't get a response.

[435] And when I told them, everything that I just told you guys and kind of explained where I was coming from, how much it meant to me, that it was real, all these things.

[436] Her mom was crying by the end and telling me that if she wished she had known that at the time because if she had that things might have been different.

[437] She just thought there was a wolf in the hen house.

[438] Yes, exactly.

[439] And I felt like I never got the platform to tell her that there wasn't one, which I wanted to.

[440] Yeah.

[441] But when she told me that, it was all the more devastating.

[442] I have beef with Victoria.

[443] I feel like she should have talked to her mom.

[444] I have a little beef with her, too.

[445] I do, too.

[446] Yeah.

[447] Yeah, I have a good relationship now with my uncle, with my aunt, even with my cousin Olivia.

[448] I don't have them with Victoria.

[449] And the reason is I just need to have a conversation about what happened.

[450] It's not because I want to get on her face about it.

[451] It's not because I still have feelings.

[452] but because I'm someone who wants to have real conversations who wants to know where we stand and having that void in the relationship where there was like a black box and I don't know what happened in the house because I didn't hear from her until she broke up with me and I certainly didn't hear from her afterwards.

[453] So I don't know what went through her mind and everything was real for me and maybe it wasn't for her, but because we haven't had that conversation, I just can't talk to her about the weather or whatever, you know, and she's not willing to have that conversation.

[454] So when I see her, I just don't interact with her, but I talk with everyone else.

[455] I love her husband.

[456] Her husband's great.

[457] He's a good guy too.

[458] He's at the reunions that I hang out with him.

[459] So it's just totally strange, bizarre thing.

[460] I'm projecting, but I have one of these scenarios where I had a girlfriend in high school.

[461] She cheated on me. I broke up with her.

[462] A bunch of crazy shit went down.

[463] I had to go meet with her father.

[464] It was suggested she gets some help.

[465] I was a part of that.

[466] She then hated my guts.

[467] And then I didn't talk to her for 10 years.

[468] And having it so unresolved for me gave it a pretty big wait like I definitely felt like I was more in love with her because of that scenario and then I did reconnect with her same thing she was married at that point and then as I saw her as an adult I was like oh it's just a person we would have never worked out all this stuff but because it was so dramatic the way everything ended I do know for that period where I hadn't had any contact with her it felt like shit was that the person because I didn't get to find out there's something really cruel about something not being able to run a natural course yeah and I'll say this too, like, just the person that I am, and I know this about myself, I just want to know why.

[469] And if I know the why, I'm going to be kind of okay with the what, like, with whatever happens.

[470] Because at least I understand.

[471] And so that's all I was asking for and, like, wanting to have a conversation.

[472] If I were you and I had been the exact same situation you were in, what I really need to know from her is, was it as heartbreaking for you or was that a fine outcome and you got to get out of something?

[473] Or was she ever as in it as you were?

[474] Right.

[475] I would need to know that so that I could kind of file it one way or another in my head.

[476] I agree with you.

[477] I will say that, and kind of what I mentioned before, I do feel in some sense I have that answer given that she was engaged to someone else within a year and is so married with him and has kids with him and all these things.

[478] So I've always used that in my brain to say I have an answer and that allowed me to move on many, many years ago.

[479] Cody, that's a heartbreaking story.

[480] There probably is an impact there.

[481] It does seem like because I had the feelings I have with her, And I haven't had those feelings since.

[482] It can be hard for me to reconcile when I want to go all in on a relationship because I knew before.

[483] It was really easy with her to know because even though I had a lot of reasons as to why I shouldn't, I had what felt to me the one reason that mattered as to why I should.

[484] And things are almost flipped now where, you know, I've gone out with amazing women who would check off all the boxes.

[485] If I did that sort of thing in my brain, we have fun times together.

[486] It can make you a pessimist.

[487] I think.

[488] To have known, like, great love and then to not have it, it's easy to get like, well, that was that.

[489] Yeah.

[490] It can.

[491] And I try to stay positive.

[492] I like to think I'm a positive person.

[493] And so I'm still 30 years young.

[494] So there's still time.

[495] Oh, boy.

[496] Well, that was a heavy one.

[497] Yeah.

[498] Thanks for sharing that.

[499] Thanks for asking the question.

[500] I think it's cool that you guys started doing this.

[501] Thank you so much, Cody.

[502] Have a blast in Plyadel Karma.

[503] Yeah, really, really nice to meet you.

[504] You guys too.

[505] Thank you.

[506] Oh, okay.

[507] Can you hear us?

[508] Yes.

[509] Wonderful.

[510] Hi.

[511] Hi, Dax.

[512] Hi, Monica.

[513] How are you?

[514] So good.

[515] How are you?

[516] I'm good.

[517] Should I be using a code name for you or can I call you Stephen?

[518] Stephen is great.

[519] Okay.

[520] Okay.

[521] I didn't know if this was something you were illegally embroiled in currently with your forbidden love.

[522] So we're very curious what forbidden love you either experience or are currently experiencing.

[523] Well, I did.

[524] kind of a fact check on this.

[525] And I can't quite place the exact year, but let's say it happened in about the year 2000.

[526] Okay, great.

[527] Turn of the century.

[528] Yeah, turn of the century.

[529] Y2K.

[530] Moni's mom's panicking right now, trying to update software.

[531] I'm in Tennessee watching a Dave Coe concert.

[532] Aaron's getting thrown out.

[533] Okay, we've got the context.

[534] So we know where we are.

[535] Yeah.

[536] So I'm living in Seattle at this point.

[537] I moved up here in 97.

[538] From?

[539] Actually, from Los Angeles.

[540] Oh, wow.

[541] Okay.

[542] I mean, I'm a West Coast kid.

[543] So, you know, San Diego, Los Angeles, Berkeley, and now Seattle.

[544] So I have friends in many of those cities, and we devised a trip to Las Vegas.

[545] And it was in celebration, actually, of some friends of ours, David and Mariel, who were getting married.

[546] And it wasn't exactly like a staghandu.

[547] We weren't that organized.

[548] We were just getting together in Vegas to celebrate our friends and have some fun.

[549] So I, in some Some other of my friends stayed in the Mirage Hotel.

[550] What is also there is Siegfried and Roy's Secret Garden.

[551] Oh.

[552] Uh -huh.

[553] Talk about forbidden love.

[554] Well, I mean, it's tropical.

[555] We were there hanging out, and the Secret Garden has two sort of parts to it.

[556] One part is the above ground where there's a habitat for, like, white tigers and bangle tigers.

[557] I think there's an African elephant, white lions.

[558] And then there's a whole sort of nautical aspect where they have a giant dolphinarium.

[559] Dolphinarium.

[560] Yeah.

[561] You went to Berkeley.

[562] That's why you were in Berkeley.

[563] It's true.

[564] And I loved it.

[565] I love Berkeley.

[566] Dolphinarium.

[567] No, dolphin area.

[568] Is it, did you say dolphin area or dolphinarium?

[569] I think the term for a habitat for dolphins is dolphinarium.

[570] Yeah, Monica.

[571] Oh, I'm sorry, Dax.

[572] I'm sorry.

[573] That's why he says.

[574] old guy, he went to Berkeley.

[575] Okay, okay, dolphinarium.

[576] I'm so thrilled.

[577] The fact that we don't know that is embarrassing for how much we talk about dolphins.

[578] Please continue, Stephen, I'm sorry.

[579] So my friends, Donald and Lisa and I, they're like my good buddies, they still live in Los Angeles.

[580] We were wandering around the habitat, and they kind of wandered in one direction, and I wandered in another direction.

[581] And I ended up wandering into this sort of underground area of the dolphin tank, which is enormous, that has big, big windows.

[582] So you can see into the tank.

[583] And it's kind of damp and drippy down there.

[584] I went down and I was just standing underneath looking into the big tank.

[585] And while I'm standing there, up swims a dolphin.

[586] And the dolphin stops in front of me vertically so that the two of us are just looking at each other.

[587] Oh my God.

[588] And he's like virtually bipedal at this point if he were on land.

[589] Correct.

[590] He's arranged himself exactly the same way that I am, so that we are, in fact, looking one another in the eyes.

[591] And it's interesting because at that moment, I did say, this is a male dolphin.

[592] I had absolutely no factual evidence of that.

[593] It's just what I felt.

[594] The two of us started just looking at each other, and we looked at each other, and we looked at each other, and we looked at each other.

[595] And we just were not breaking our gaze.

[596] We were just like, wow, locked together.

[597] I mean, I lost track of time.

[598] The feelings you're having staring at this creature are either A. I'm connecting with this thing intellectually, that's wild or soul level, or you're feeling sexual towards it.

[599] Both.

[600] All of it.

[601] Yeah, it was all of it.

[602] And it kind of happened in like stages where like the first thought that sort of floated up in my head was, wow, this is a non -human person.

[603] Oh.

[604] Oh, right.

[605] Uh -huh.

[606] We're here together.

[607] And I've never had that thought before about an animal other than a human.

[608] It was like a profound, like, wow, this is a sentient creature.

[609] Yeah, he's checking me out.

[610] He's curious about me. Yeah, and I'm looking at him and we're just sharing this moment.

[611] But then, like, as we kept looking at each other, the best way I can describe it is, do you know that feeling when you have a really intimate moment with someone you love and you're in their eyes and they're in your eyes and I'm in your eyes and you're in my eyes?

[612] It's all one.

[613] That's what happens.

[614] That's what happened next.

[615] Wow.

[616] Transcendence.

[617] Yeah, it was just floating together.

[618] And that happened for a while.

[619] And then the last thought I had, you know, kind of in the experience was, wow, I have an enormous boner right now.

[620] Oh, wow.

[621] Oh, my goodness.

[622] Hot dog.

[623] Wow.

[624] It was like the whole package.

[625] Oh, my gosh.

[626] And were you surprised by this?

[627] Totally.

[628] I mean, I didn't see it coming.

[629] Yeah.

[630] I mean, you know, it's like, wow.

[631] I just walked down here and had this incredible experience with this incredible creature.

[632] Really quick.

[633] This probably isn't relevant, but I feel like I'm curious.

[634] Are you gay or straight?

[635] I'm gay.

[636] Okay.

[637] Kind of relevant, I feel like, yeah.

[638] Because of the male dolphin part?

[639] Because the male male, yeah.

[640] Like, if I think you felt the male male, male.

[641] Yeah, I do have to call myself on that just as an aside that I had no factual evidence for that.

[642] It's just what I felt.

[643] You just felt a male energy.

[644] I felt a male energy.

[645] You didn't see its penis.

[646] No, I didn't see it's penis.

[647] I didn't have any, like, visual confirmation of that.

[648] It's what I felt.

[649] And then what happened next was from behind me, someone said, wow.

[650] And it was my friends, Don and Lisa.

[651] They had walked down into the same place where I was and were standing there, dumbstruck, watching me and the dolphin.

[652] Oh, my God.

[653] And seeing what we were experiencing together.

[654] And finally, Lisa couldn't stop herself.

[655] She was like, wow.

[656] Very soon after that, the dolphin had a moment where it kind of shook its head and looked up and then swam away.

[657] And what I realized at that moment is the dolphin has to breathe.

[658] Holy shit.

[659] I was assuming it was bummed that now your pals were there, but that, of course, is it.

[660] Yeah, I don't think it was because my pals were there because we never really broke eyes.

[661] It just kind of pulled back and shook its head and nose a bit and then swam right for the surface.

[662] I looked into it.

[663] They can hold their breath for up to 20 minutes.

[664] And usually they don't hold their breath more than five minutes.

[665] Uh -huh.

[666] Did it come back down?

[667] No. Oh, my God.

[668] This is like a closing doors moment.

[669] Wow.

[670] Sliding doors?

[671] Sliding doors.

[672] Thank you, Monica.

[673] What's that reference?

[674] It's a link later movie, is it, Monica?

[675] No. Are you talking about sliding doors where her life would have changed?

[676] Yeah.

[677] If she got on a subway or something or a train.

[678] Yeah.

[679] It's two different versions of her life, whether she gets on this train or doesn't get on this train, basically, like makes the subway or doesn't make the subway.

[680] You see the two different versions of her life.

[681] That's what the movie is showing.

[682] Yes.

[683] And now colloquially, I think people know, like, a sliding door moment is like, do you jump off the train at the person you just saw on the platform, you know, because you locked eyes or do you just stay on the train?

[684] And what could have been?

[685] That's kind of now what it comes to mean, I think.

[686] Yeah.

[687] Okay.

[688] Did you go back?

[689] That same afternoon, I went back and I looked around and then I looked around up top, but I didn't see the dolphin and it was like, wow, it's done.

[690] Wow.

[691] Oh, my God.

[692] What an experience.

[693] Those dolphins are hit it and quit it, those fuckers.

[694] Well, you know what?

[695] We'll always have Vegas.

[696] You know?

[697] Fuck, that's an incredible story.

[698] Boy, I have so many really quick follow questions, but like, is it just that dolphin or you like when you find yourself at a dolphinarium are you like fuck i want to see if i can connect with another one or it's just in your mind that was this little snapshot of something incredibly rare and weird and special and that was that or do you think it's like an option again for me that was a one shot incredibly rare incredibly special it happened that was that i'm me he was him we had our experience and that happened interesting follow -up though a few years later I went down to Los Angeles to hang out with my friends Dawn and Lisa and we went to the beach and while we were on the beach a whole bunch of dolphins swam by.

[699] Whoa.

[700] A pot.

[701] What?

[702] Like a whole pot of them.

[703] And they looked at me and they were like, Steve.

[704] They were teasing you.

[705] Yeah, I mean, they were like, come on.

[706] I mean, the dolphins, they're here.

[707] Yeah, yeah.

[708] We never see them here.

[709] We come here all the time and now you're here.

[710] Probably coincident.

[711] It's very sim.

[712] Minimally, it's simulation.

[713] minimally it's sim we can agree on that oh man stephen what a great story thank you for sharing that i wish there were a snapshot of the two of you i can see it so in my mind so cinematic it's virtually that story too the gamo do toro movie of a few years back yeah when that movie came out i was all over it i bet i was really like oh yeah this happened to me mm -hmm yeah what was that called Lady in the Water.

[714] The Shape of Water.

[715] Lady in the Water.

[716] That sounds like a horror movie.

[717] I think there was probably a horror movie called that.

[718] Wait, do you think about him a lot?

[719] It was 22 years ago.

[720] Yeah, but still.

[721] He comes back to me frequently.

[722] Yeah.

[723] It's such a beautiful, special, exceptional memory of such an amazing moment that I feel was a privilege.

[724] And it doesn't embarrass me or anything.

[725] It's just like, wow, that was amazing.

[726] Yeah.

[727] You know, I would also compare it to, because we're primed for the mermaid paradigm you kind of had a mermaid experience yeah you guys can't be together you can't live underwater he can't hang out at Costco yeah I mean like at the end of the shape of water I was jealous of her because she got to turn into the creature oh my god would you have done it I might have I mean in that moment yeah why not let's go for it we already know what this reality's like let's try this one out yeah oh man special.

[728] Yeah, what an awesome story, Steve.

[729] I'm so glad you shared it with us.

[730] Thank you.

[731] I'll be seeing you down the road.

[732] Okay.

[733] I look forward to it.

[734] Maybe I'll be on the inside of the aquarium.

[735] There you go.

[736] Take care.

[737] You too.

[738] Bye.

[739] Bye.

[740] Bye.

[741] Wow.

[742] Wow.

[743] A dolphin asparagus.

[744] Literally dolphin asparagus.

[745] Do you want to sing a tune or something?

[746] We know a theme song.

[747] Oh.

[748] Okay.

[749] Great.

[750] We don't have a thing song for this new show, so here I go, go, go.

[751] We're going to ask some random questions, and with the help of armcherry's, we'll get some suggestions.

[752] On the flyer rhyme dish, enjoy.

[753] Follow armchair expert on the Wondry app, Amazon music, or wherever you get your podcasts.

[754] You can listen to every episode of Armchair Expert early and add.

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