S5 E5: I Can't Control What He'll Do to You | Kelly

[0] Wondry Plus subscribers can listen to something was wrong early and ad -free right now.

[1] Join Wondry Plus in the Wondry app or on Apple Podcasts.

[2] I'm Dan Tversky.

[3] In 2011, something strange began to happen at a high school in upstate New York.

[4] A mystery illness, bizarre symptoms, and spreading fast.

[5] What's the answer?

[6] And what do you do if they tell you it's all in your head?

[7] Hysterical.

[8] A new podcast from Wondry and Pineapple Street Studios.

[9] Binge all episodes of hysterical early and ad -free on Wondery Plus.

[10] Something Was Wrong is intended for mature audiences.

[11] Many episodes discuss topics that can be triggering, such as emotional and physical abuse, suicide, and murder.

[12] Please take caution when listening.

[13] I am not a therapist or a doctor.

[14] Opinions expressed by guests of the show do not necessarily represent the views of this podcast.

[15] If you or someone you know is being abused, please contact the National Domestic Violence Hotline at 1 -800 -799 -7233.

[16] If you or someone you love is experiencing a suicidal crisis or thoughts of suicide, please call the National Suicide Prevention Lifeline at 1 -800 -273 -8255.

[17] Thank you.

[18] Were you required, as the youth pastor's wife, to work for the church or the restaurant or the venue for free or were you paid for the time that you spent volunteering?

[19] You mentioned you worked in the nursery and things like that.

[20] I volunteered in the nursery for a very long time, but eventually I did acquire a paid position.

[21] Underpaid, but I didn't really care about that.

[22] The only issue, no, I can't say the only issue because it is a major issue.

[23] My paycheck after I was married didn't go to me. My paycheck went under my husband, under his paycheck.

[24] I'm sorry?

[25] Because, yes, it went under his paycheck.

[26] It's horrible.

[27] I don't know why I agreed to this.

[28] Did you have a W -2 that you filled out?

[29] I did not.

[30] So my wages that I earned, he tacked on to his wages in order to boost his credit score.

[31] And for whatever reason, I was convinced that this was an acceptable thing.

[32] You think you know me, you don't know me as an employer.

[33] Very bad.

[34] Okay, that needs more context.

[35] One of the things that Julia highlighted was that there was that there was a lot of yelling in the church, workplace, in the office environment.

[36] Is that something you witnessed or you heard about from your mom and sister who also worked at the church?

[37] I heard about it more than I experienced it because I was not in the office all that often.

[38] But when he did get mad, he was very good at pointing fingers back at the person who brought up an issue.

[39] Very, very skilled at that, making people feel so small, so, so, So small.

[40] Can you speak to when you worked at the restaurant?

[41] Was that a pay that also was going on your husband's paycheck?

[42] Well, yes, my husband.

[43] It was going into our joint account that I no longer had access to after we separated.

[44] I pulled out my most recent paychecks and then he took the rest.

[45] I didn't really care all that much about the income that I got from the restaurant because I would doing it as a favor.

[46] And so the money I was getting was, you know, helpful, but I didn't care about it.

[47] At the end of the tax year, I got a W -2 from the restaurant.

[48] And mind you, I had worked for him not that much, but a Friday and Saturday here and there for, you know, five, six hours, maybe less, maybe four or five hours, a night as a hostess.

[49] And so you would think that, you would think that that would be at least a few hundred dollars on the W -2.

[50] No, no. The W -2 told me that I earned $29 .50.

[51] $29 total?

[52] $29 total.

[53] I never investigated because it did not seem worth it mentally and emotionally for me to pursue that.

[54] So I just left it.

[55] So that was interesting to me. I gave him initially the benefit of the doubt that maybe it was a mistake and I just didn't pursue.

[56] But I think that it might not have been a mistake.

[57] This spiritual abuse stuff we haven't gotten into yet because the marital abuse was so prevalent in my experience that everything else was kind of overshadowed.

[58] But the way that my ex preached was exceedingly un -Christian.

[59] And listen, I'm not a Christian myself right now either, but I have spent my entire life in the church, and I do understand it pretty well.

[60] He, his sermons, quite often, didn't even mention Jesus, would barely have a Bible verse.

[61] And if it did, it was a self -serving message.

[62] He very much prized his reputation.

[63] his image above anything else.

[64] So all of the messages that he gave were very much, oh, look at me, I'm awesome.

[65] Now, to be fair, a lot of that was a, I mean, I'm giving him a lot of leeway with this because I try to be compassionate.

[66] But a lot of his messaging to himself was in order to build up his self -esteem after it had been torn down by his parents in childhood.

[67] So I will grant him that.

[68] he needs therapy, and this isn't an excuse.

[69] His favorite phrase is, I'm awesome, because of all of his past trauma, but it came across exceedingly egocentric.

[70] All of his sermons came across the same way, and it was actually to the point where he viewed himself as next to God.

[71] It's a really common saying among Christians that, you know, I'm God's favorite.

[72] It's cute.

[73] It really means that every person is special to God, and I love it.

[74] It's wonderful.

[75] But he genuinely believed that not only was he God's favorite, like number one favorite, that that meant that everyone else was below him in God's eyes.

[76] Going into how he spoke to the youth group and the messages that he used for them, he prized work above all else.

[77] And if you were not able to provide work for him, you were useless to him.

[78] Now, any students that might be listening to this who think that that's where your value system comes from, let me tell you that it is skewed and it is wrong.

[79] and you are valuable just for being yourself and nobody gets to determine your value based on the work or the freaking usefulness that you bring to the group.

[80] You are useful on your own.

[81] You don't need to do anything to prove that.

[82] And this man was immoral in making students feel like they were useless unless they could provide him with work.

[83] I came up with a little spiel that I had memorized to tell parents when they asked what was going on in the youth group.

[84] Because my spouse did not necessarily preach, I mean, I don't know quite how to say it because the Bible is up to so much interpretation.

[85] But he definitely did not.

[86] preach a biblical worldview by any stretch.

[87] The phrases that I would use to describe what was going on in our youth group, what was being taught, was parents would approach me and say, I don't feel like my kids are connecting with God all that much, and I would launch into this defense of our youth group, defense of my husband's actions, and say, you know, we're really working on character development right now, and this is because there's a lot of students in the group that are not Christian that don't have a Christian background.

[88] So we're focusing on building up their self -esteem and helping them get those basic character traits before we dive deeper into the Bible.

[89] This is what I would tell parents in the church.

[90] I came up with this by myself because you didn't know what else to say.

[91] You didn't know what else to say because I similarly was like actually he's not preaching the Bible.

[92] He is preaching a very self -centric limited worldview script from the Bible.

[93] I think the thing you spoke about that jumps out to me is that the parents were concerned that he never even used the word Jesus during his sermons.

[94] When your entire religion is supposed to be centered around Christ who is Jesus, how does one navigate not even bringing that person that the religion is named after and based upon?

[95] I don't.

[96] Oh yeah.

[97] I started recording his messages every week so that I could get him to listen to them back.

[98] The goal that I told him was so that he could become a better speaker.

[99] The real goal was to be able to review them and make sure that I wasn't crazy in thinking he didn't talk about Jesus the whole time because I started pointing it out to him, hey, you didn't even open your Bible, and he would say, what do you mean?

[100] Of course I did.

[101] So then I started recording to prove to myself that I was.

[102] was not insane and to show him that I was not insane.

[103] He surrounded himself with leadership, adult leadership, that followed his vision, which I think is a good thing to do.

[104] You need people who are on the same page, but the way that he did it was he picked people who wouldn't disagree with him or call him out.

[105] There were a couple of times that Couples, spouses, joined the leadership team, and they carried something different.

[106] I remember one couple came in with such a passion for seeing junior high and high school kids succeed and learn about Jesus, about themselves, all of it.

[107] They came in with ideas, and they immediately connected with the students, and they were really well liked by all of us.

[108] and my spouse found reasons that they actually weren't a good fit.

[109] Same with another more recent couple.

[110] They came in with, it's like they had their eyes wide open from the moment they started.

[111] And because of that, my spouse kept them at a distance.

[112] From the moment that they started helping in the youth group, he was very dismissive of them to me and would say, oh, they're just here for little while.

[113] I'm sure that they will find out that they don't like us and they will leave.

[114] It turns out that they did leave.

[115] It's a little bit challenging because I don't actually feel like I was spiritually abused, but the spiritual disconnect between what you profess to believe in the Bible and your actions was really jarring.

[116] We dated for five months before we got engaged and it was only 11 months total from when we got together to when we got married.

[117] And then how long has it been since, how long has it, how long were you married and how long has it been since you've divorced?

[118] We were married a little bit over two years.

[119] And that was almost two years ago.

[120] I left him on the night of my 23rd birthday.

[121] As a present to yourself, I assume.

[122] As a present to myself, yeah.

[123] Yeah.

[124] No, it had been a very terrible day, and I just planned to stay the night at my mom's house for the night or a couple.

[125] And I was not invited back.

[126] So, thank you for him for trying to be manipulative and get me to make some concessions.

[127] And then I just decided, fine, if you're not going to invite me back, that's fine.

[128] I don't want to.

[129] One of the things that gaslighters love to do is start arguments and then ghost people or break off contact with them abruptly as a manipulation tactic to get the other party to fold first and come back to them with apologies.

[130] Did you experience any of that pattern before you finally decided?

[131] A little bit?

[132] Our adventure in separation was a little more complicated than what I just described.

[133] We went to go see a counselor for a little while, and he was very back and forth with what he would express in those sessions.

[134] First, it was, I love you and I want you back.

[135] And then it was, you're abusive to me, and you hurt me, and I never want to see you again.

[136] And then it was, well, I think God can redeem this.

[137] and then actually know you're trash and very, very back and forth.

[138] One of the things you talked to me about before was that the counselor that you saw wasn't specifically affiliated with the church, but was essentially a friend of the church.

[139] How long were you in counseling?

[140] And what was that experience like for you being in counseling with your abuser?

[141] That was the most horrific experience of my life, actually.

[142] I would rate that as more traumatic than the entire marriage, and the marriage was pretty traumatic.

[143] The counselor that we saw, well, my ex had chosen him, despite my very specific assertion that we should see somebody who didn't have any sort of connection to us, because his concern, his main concern, was his reputation.

[144] I had been barred from speaking to people in my life openly.

[145] And so all of the counselors that I had seen previously were people from our life that he had directed me to and also told me, you know, get help for your problems, but don't you dare say a bad word about me. So I insisted that we see somebody who was not connected to us and allowed him to choose that person, which he did.

[146] and it was only a couple of weeks into the sessions that I realized how much this man was connected to us.

[147] He attended the church, tithed to the church.

[148] He was also a member of Lance's business and frequently went to that restaurant.

[149] He was intimately connected to our lives.

[150] And so I felt like I could not be honest, and I expressed that to our counselor.

[151] And instead of doing the ethical thing and saying, you know what, you're right, this is a conflict of interest, I can see that you are feeling conflicted about being honest with me. And so I will refer you to somebody else.

[152] He did not do that.

[153] He minimized my response.

[154] He minimized my previous trauma in therapy.

[155] He expressed to me that he could in fact be impartial and told me, yes, reveal everything to me, I want to know all.

[156] And that was a bad choice.

[157] That was a very bad choice of my part.

[158] He ended up violating HIPAA after I shared something with him about Lance.

[159] And he went and told Lance.

[160] Is this a licensed counselor?

[161] Yes.

[162] Yes, he is.

[163] And then you mentioned you saw a female counselor.

[164] So you saw a total of two counselors together and basically both had some sort of affiliation with the church?

[165] Yes.

[166] We also saw Lance together as a couple's counselor for a little while because my ex thought that Lance would be on his side and tell me that I am horrible, but Lance did not say that.

[167] And so my ex said, never mind, we don't need to see him.

[168] I can't imagine how painful that would be considering some of the things, the types of abuse that you experienced within your marriage the fact that any counselor would sweep the behavior away and also not recommend that you see another counselor after you've expressed your sort of feeling of being unable to be honest.

[169] It's extremely concerning to me that that is a licensed counselor.

[170] Like you said, that's illegal.

[171] Yeah, it was very poor advice from him as well.

[172] I didn't begin and to classify it as rape until after we were separated.

[173] Actually, the first I had, the first time that I heard it described specifically as rape was after a counseling session in which I revealed to the counselor and to my spouse that I didn't feel appreciated during sex and described rape.

[174] After that session, my ex came to me and with tears in his eyes and said, how could you say that about me?

[175] It sounds like you were raped.

[176] It sounds like you just described that I raped you.

[177] And I had not associated that word to my experience until he brought it up.

[178] and in the moment I recall thinking well yeah it felt like rape but not being willing to say yes you did rape me so instead as he's crying that I felt like I had been raped I apologized for making it sound like that and consoled him as he cried over the accusation I'm so sorry what did the counts was this the female counselor that you saw or the male counselor?

[179] The male counselor.

[180] Can you talk about what his response was to you sharing this information in counseling?

[181] I think he offered me a tissue first.

[182] Well, I described it to him privately and then we talked about it another session together with the three of us.

[183] Did he at any time advise you that you had rights and that if you felt like you were being sexually assaulted you could contact the police?

[184] He did not because he didn't describe it as rape.

[185] He just described it.

[186] He felt that it was, oh God, how to describe it?

[187] Because it's so convoluted and so such a limited worldview and so not compassionate toward survivors.

[188] His response to me was that my husband wasn't doing his job to pleasure me. And he, needed to do better.

[189] Not that I had been victimized or that what he did was wrong and hurtful, but just that he wasn't doing his job well enough.

[190] So they're both deciding whether or not you were raped despite you basically describing to them that you were raped.

[191] Yes.

[192] And he also had this extra worldview about why a relationship was breaking.

[193] down.

[194] So one of the secrets that I was made to keep through my whole relationship was that my spouse and I never acquired a marriage license.

[195] And so finally feeling emboldened to share that piece of my history and get it off of my chest with this counselor, he was immediately, he's like, oh, yes, that's why you're having so many issues because you're outside of God's will.

[196] So not, he's not responsible for any of that.

[197] That's God.

[198] It is a breakdown in our relationship because we do not have God's approval.

[199] Yes, that is how he described it.

[200] I want to share a little bit about my situation right now as it stands, if that's okay.

[201] Absolutely.

[202] My ex and I still both co -own the two cars that we bought together before we separated.

[203] and I've been making the payments on my own since we separated.

[204] I'm financially able to do so, thank goodness, and so he hasn't had a leg on which to stand in his efforts to remove the car from my possession.

[205] When I left the house permanently, I failed to collect my spare car keys.

[206] so now my ex is holding those over my head and saying it that if I step out of line or don't comply with him, he will come and take my car, which I've looked up the laws surrounding, and he's within his legal right to do so because it's his car as well.

[207] As long as it is not on private property, well, I believe he could take it from a driveway, but if it's in a garage, he can't because that would be trespassing.

[208] But I decided that I was going to stand up to his threats, and I told him that were he to come and try to take my car, I would have absolutely no hesitation in exposing everything that he had done to me publicly, which I'm kind of doing now.

[209] So there's my leverage, but whatever.

[210] I'm Dan Tibersky.

[211] In 2011, something strange began to happen at the high school in Leroy, New York.

[212] I was like at my locker and she came up to me and she was like stuttering super bad.

[213] I'm like, stop fucking around.

[214] She's like, I can't.

[215] A mystery illness, bizarre symptoms and spreading fast.

[216] It's like doubling and tripling and it's all these girls.

[217] With a diagnosis, the state tried to keep on the down low.

[218] Everybody thought I was holding something back.

[219] Well, you were holding something back intentionally.

[220] Yeah, yeah, well, yeah.

[221] Yeah, it's hysteria.

[222] It's all in your head.

[223] It's not physical.

[224] Oh, my gosh, you're exaggerating.

[225] Is this the largest mass hysteria since the witches of Salem?

[226] Or is it something else entirely?

[227] Something's wrong here.

[228] Something's not right.

[229] Leroy was the new date line and everyone was trying to solve the murder.

[230] A new limited series from Wondery and Pineapple Street Studios, Hysterical.

[231] Follow Hysterical on the Wondery app or wherever you get your podcasts.

[232] You can binge all episodes of Hysterical early and ad -free right now by joining Wondry Plus.

[233] Scammers are best known for living the high life until they're forced to trade it all in for handcuffs and an orange jumpsuit once they're finally caught.

[234] I'm Sachi Cole.

[235] And I'm Sarah Haggy.

[236] And we're the host of scam influencers, a weekly podcast from Wondery that takes you along the twists and turns of some of the most infamous scams of all time, the impact on victims and what's left once a facade falls away.

[237] We've covered stories like a Shark Tank certified entrepreneur who left the show with an investment, but soon faced mounting bills.

[238] an active lawsuit followed by Larry King and no real product to push.

[239] He then began to prey on vulnerable women instead, selling the idea of a future together while stealing from them behind their backs.

[240] To the infamous scams of Real Housewives stars like Teresa Judice, what should have proven to be a major downfall only seemed to solidify her place in the Real Housewives Hall of Fame.

[241] Follow scam influencers on the Wondry app or wherever you get your podcasts.

[242] You can listen to Scamfluencers early and ad -free right now on Wondry Plus.

[243] That is important to the story because in counseling, he attempted to browbeat me into giving him money on the off chance that I would decide to stop making car payments or that I would die, and he would be left with the financial burden of my car.

[244] So as we're sitting there, trying to hammer out the deal, we've officially decided we are going to separate and now we're just talking about splitting assets.

[245] at this point.

[246] Oh, it's so interesting as well to note that we never got a divorce because we never really got married.

[247] We never acquired a marriage license.

[248] So our wedding was just a social thing, getting married before God, I guess.

[249] I'm not sure how to describe it, but it felt lazy.

[250] Was this because he didn't want to get legally married for some reason?

[251] This was because he had recently been adopted and his name change had not gone through yet.

[252] So rather than getting a marriage license and then having to change your names twice, we were going to wait until the paperwork came in for his name change and then get a marriage license and do the courthouse thing afterward.

[253] For whatever reason, his name change never came.

[254] Interesting.

[255] It never came.

[256] So we went two years of basically cohabitating under the pretense that we were married.

[257] And then after we separated, I noticed on our joint car insurance that his name had changed like two weeks after I left him.

[258] And so I, did I call him or send him?

[259] I don't remember.

[260] But anyway, I talked to him about, isn't it hilarious that I asked you for two years when your name change was going to happen and you told me, I just don't know.

[261] And then two weeks after I leave you, it comes in and you change your name legally.

[262] That's hilarious.

[263] Interesting.

[264] So anyway, our splitting of assets was more along the lines of which things he was willing to give me that we had bought together because I had no ground to stand.

[265] on for what was legally mine in the house necessarily since we weren't legally married.

[266] So we were trying to split things up, and he had the bright idea of setting up a mutual fund so that I could put two and a half months worth of income into this account that both of us could access, $5 ,000, on the off chance that I die or stop making carpet.

[267] payments.

[268] And he would consider that a good faith arrangement of how I wouldn't screw him over financially.

[269] So still like not having deconstructed that I was being abused, I thought that sounds iffy, but if it will make you happy, I will do it.

[270] So I talked to my parents about it and they said, hell fucking no, don't do that.

[271] Thank God for parents.

[272] Thank God for parents.

[273] Sometimes.

[274] Sometimes they really work out.

[275] Sometimes it works.

[276] And so I started to think about how that was an unfair arrangement because I, the burden was on me to provide him with security.

[277] When his car also has my name on it, he is equally likely to die or stop making car payments.

[278] And he offered me no security.

[279] And looking at it now, I am so.

[280] angry at that counselor for sitting there in his comfortable chair and noticing.

[281] Seeing that I was being abused financially, he sat there in his chair and mediated the conditions of my continued abuse.

[282] From his counseling perspective, that is an incredible moral failing.

[283] That could potentially affect his own property and his own ability to make money.

[284] Your abuse could literally financially affect him?

[285] Yes.

[286] So I eventually decided I'm not going to provide you with my hard -earned money so that you feel better.

[287] It's not going to happen.

[288] And it was at that time that I decided I'm not going back to this counselor and I'm not going to be speaking to my ex anymore.

[289] So I let him know that I'm not coming back.

[290] I let him know I'm not giving him money.

[291] And it was actually radio silence after that, which I didn't really expect.

[292] But I called the counselor before I officially quit counseling with him.

[293] And I told him that I was not going to follow through with our agreement.

[294] Thank goodness I hadn't signed any papers yet because they were really pushing me to do that, the both of them.

[295] and I told him that I'm not going to I'm not going to do it and he took a deep breath and sighed and said well if you don't do this I can't control what he will do to you and that felt in the moment like a threat of sorts and I was immediately very put off by the statement I I don't remember what I said in response but but I ended the phone call pretty shortly after and have not spoken to him since.

[296] It felt extremely inappropriate, extremely inappropriate.

[297] Like, I am expressing that I'm uncomfortable with the arrangement.

[298] I'm expressing that I feel like my abuse is continuing.

[299] And he says, well, you're going to get what's coming to you if you don't comply.

[300] Wow, I am horrified.

[301] Can you summarize how you feel?

[302] felt after that conversation because I am filled with rage thinking about it.

[303] I had to talk to my family a lot about that conversation to confirm that what I was feeling was valid.

[304] Since I had gone through a marriage in which my feelings were invalidated consistently, I had to check in all the time to ask whether I was on the right track.

[305] And very, very luckily, my family is incredible.

[306] I relied on them so much for support afterward.

[307] And going to specifically my stepdad, who's a very kind and generous and thoughtful individual, he in particular was enraged and expressed to me that those words were not okay, the actions were not okay, and that I had every right to be upset.

[308] And I trust my stepdad's views so much because I know that he does not speak without thinking very deeply.

[309] And he laid out all of the facts in a line for me to look at and said, this is not right, this is not right, this is not right.

[310] And here's the big picture.

[311] Now you have all the information and you can make the choice for yourself to put up with it or don't.

[312] You know?

[313] I'm so glad you have the support of your family, and I'm so thankful that you had that experience of validation from another male and someone standing up for your rights and saying this is not okay, because it's absolutely not okay.

[314] Under any circumstances, I'm just horrified.

[315] I visited our apartment after maybe a month of being separated, and we sat down to talk.

[316] Next time.

[317] Something was wrong me, is written, recorded, edited and produced by me, Tiffany Reetz.

[318] Music by Gladrags.

[319] Thank you so much to each and every survivor for sharing their story.

[320] If you'd like to support the growth of the podcast, you can leave us a five -star review on iTunes, support the podcast on patreon .com, share the podcast with your family and friends, or support our sponsors.

[321] Websites and resources mentioned on this episode can be found linked in the episode notes.

[322] Follow me on Instagram at Looky Boo.

[323] L -O -O -K -I -E -B -O -O.

[324] Thank you so much.

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[328] She struck him with her motor vehicle.

[329] She had been under the influence and she left him there.

[330] In January 2022, local woman Karen Reid was in.

[331] implicated in the mysterious death of her boyfriend, Boston police officer John O 'Keefe.

[332] It was alleged that after an innocent night out for drinks with friends, Karen and John got into a lover's quarrel en route to the next location.

[333] What happens next?

[334] Depends on who you ask.

[335] Was it a crime of passion?

[336] If you believe the prosecution, it's because the evidence was so compelling.

[337] This was clearly an intentional act.

[338] And his cause of death was blunt force trauma with hypothermia.

[339] Or a corrupt police cover -up.

[340] If you believe the defense theory, however, this was all a cover -up to prevent one of their own from going down.

[341] Everyone had an opinion.

[342] And after the 10 -week trial, the jury could not come to a unanimous decision.

[343] To end in a mistrial, it's just a confirmation of just how complicated this case is.

[344] Law and crime presents the most in -depth analysis to date of the sensational case in Karen.

[345] You can listen to Karen exclusively with Wondry Plus.

[346] Join Wondry Plus in the Wondry app, Apple Podcasts, or Spotify.