Jim Gaffigan

[0] Welcome, welcome, welcome to armchair expert.

[1] I'm Jim Gaffigan, and I'm with Monica Mouse, and our guest is Dax Sheppard.

[2] Oh, my God.

[3] What a chaos.

[4] That's all in a blender.

[5] No, Jim Gaffigan will make you laugh again.

[6] That's your saying.

[7] Well, it's not my saying.

[8] It's Dan Ferguson's saying.

[9] From Conan O 'Brien.

[10] From Conan O 'Brien.

[11] One of my favorite producers of all time.

[12] But Jim Gaffin, we'll make you laugh again.

[13] He made us laugh again and again.

[14] And again and again.

[15] he's so funny.

[16] He's a Grammy Award -nominated stand -up comedian, actor, writer, and producer.

[17] He's had a lot of incredibly successful stand -up specials beyond the pale, Mr. Universe Obsessed, Cinco, and Noble Ape.

[18] He's got a new special, which is going to be Amazon Prime's first original comedy special called Quality Time, out now on Amazon Prime, and a new movie, American Dreamer.

[19] So please laugh again with Jim Gaff again.

[20] But before you commence all the laughing, I do want to announce that armed chair experts going on the road again.

[21] We're going to have a live show from Nashville on Saturday, November 2nd at Andrew Jackson, Monica.

[22] You've met him, right?

[23] I know, Andrew Jackson.

[24] Monica, you've met him, right?

[25] I know.

[26] We're good friends.

[27] I think there's a rumor about him that he had a huge wheel of cheese installed at the White House so that when people came to tour it, they could have some cheese.

[28] Yeah, maybe you can fact check that in an episode.

[29] I hope it's real.

[30] I love cheese.

[31] Yeah, apparently it was an enormous wheel of cheese.

[32] Anyways, that's neither here nor there.

[33] We will be in Nashville on November 2nd.

[34] Tickets go on sale Friday, September 27th at 10 a .m. Nashville time.

[35] You can visit our website at www.

[36] www .armchairexpertpod .com for the ticket link.

[37] We hope to see you in Nashville.

[38] Wondry Plus subscribers can listen to Armchair Expert early and add free right now.

[39] Join Wondry Plus in the Wondry app or on Apple Podcasts.

[40] Or you can listen for free wherever you get your podcast.

[41] And how do you two know each other besides the romance?

[42] Yeah, mainly the romance.

[43] The romance was first.

[44] Same friendship circle.

[45] Yes.

[46] Despite the 12 -year difference in age.

[47] Massive gap in age.

[48] Who's younger?

[49] That would be mentally.

[50] And then she wanted to pick up some work.

[51] so she started babysitting one of our children.

[52] Then she came on to work full -time babysitting when we had a second child or nannine.

[53] And then Kristen started asking her to help her schedule.

[54] Then we discovered she's a brilliant writer.

[55] Then she started writing everything for Kristen.

[56] Then she and I started this podcast together a year and a half ago.

[57] But I like to claim credit for originally recognizing the genius back in the friendship circle.

[58] Oh, that's nice.

[59] Yeah, you should.

[60] Jim Gaffigan is Daniel Ferguson from the old Conan years used to say, get Jim Gaff again and you'll laugh again.

[61] That was his saying.

[62] That was the same behind the scenes when you do talk shows.

[63] You're like one of the most dependable, consistent, great talk show guests.

[64] Oh my gosh.

[65] You know this about yourself.

[66] You must.

[67] Well, I, you know, I try to be consistent.

[68] I think it's important.

[69] You know, there's a strange pressure when you're on those shows.

[70] It's like, I remember going on Letterman, and he would sometimes...

[71] As a guest or doing stand -up.

[72] As a guest.

[73] Right.

[74] And he would just look at me, because I got to know him, but he would give me a look of, like, go.

[75] Right.

[76] And some of it would be, you know, I got to know him a little bit.

[77] You know, I watched his show my entire life.

[78] And I could see when he was in a bad mood.

[79] And when he was in a bad mood, he'd be like, like, just go.

[80] You'd be funny.

[81] Yeah.

[82] I'm going to check out for a second.

[83] Yeah.

[84] It's like, you know, because it's like those talk show hosts, you know, sometimes dealing with the audience, it's a conversation.

[85] And sometimes the conversation, they're not enjoying it.

[86] Sure, sure.

[87] So they look to the guest.

[88] It's fascinating to see the unfair evaporation of power that position had.

[89] You know, when I started in stand -up in the early 1800s, there was no like appearing on it was you john wilkes boo it was me john wugsbooth a fantastic a great acting family not a clean comic like you but but a great comic he was very dirty you know he did stuff that was slightly racist yeah but you know we would pal around with the tie cop and but um but the power of that show and the impact, you know, like even when there wasn't social media, you could sell tickets being on a late night show.

[90] And then now, podcasts, what I'm trying to say is that you're really powerful.

[91] Good.

[92] I was hoping that all roads would lead to an evaluation of my power.

[93] But I will say you actually, you were really at the end of when that could happen, like where you could go on Letterman or Johnny Carson or Leno and overnight become a name.

[94] You were probably the last chapter of that, don't you think?

[95] Well, I feel as though people coming to see me was the result of Comedy Central, like the peak of Comedy Central when Chappelle and John Stewart were these anchor shows.

[96] And when cable viewership was probably at its peak, like every dorm room when Beyond the Pale on my first special aired was turned to Comedy Central.

[97] Like, when I went to college, they didn't have cable.

[98] Like, you could have cable if you were rich.

[99] Or if there was cable in a dorm situation, it would be on MTV, you know, watching videos.

[100] But, like, now it's like college dorm rooms.

[101] They don't have screens in the sitting area.

[102] They have their own screens.

[103] Mm -hmm.

[104] In their hand.

[105] Yeah.

[106] And although, yes, so probably peak viewership and everything for you and the biggest boost to your touring was probably your first comedy special on Comedy Central.

[107] Yes.

[108] absolutely but don't you think being on letterman played a big role in opening the door to comedy central absolutely you were anointed if you got on letterman and you did well and you know i did my appearance on letterman and after that appearance then they were like we want to do a development deal with you and so it was just like wow and you had tried for six years to get on to letterman yes i tried forever and i was the last of my peers or my generation of comedy buddies to get on a late night show.

[109] Like, I literally had to come to the conclusion.

[110] I might never achieve any success in stand -up comedy, but I truly love doing it.

[111] So therefore, I'm just going to do it and not have an expectation that I would have any success.

[112] Do you know, you're one of the only people I've talked to that had the exact same thought as I did, which was, I'm not going to make it.

[113] I'm just preventing a bad regret.

[114] Like, I will hate myself if I don't pursue this thing.

[115] But at year nine, when, you know, peers of mine who went to the same college are buying speedboats and, like, cabins and Big Bear, I have nothing.

[116] And I'm like, wow, probably not going to happen, but I can't imagine wanting to succeed at something else.

[117] I had so much, well, I had a taste of it.

[118] And I, you know, I wanted, I was so lost in my early 20s.

[119] Like, I studied finance in college.

[120] Well, yeah, you have a really interesting road en route to doing stand -up.

[121] which It was not one of those things where I grew up You're from the Midwest too Yes and in fact We grew up in the same house We grew up in the same house Didn't bump into each other And so you were on your way out To go to college But no you grew up in northern Indiana Very close to Lake Michigan Yes We were just there Monica and I And Wobbywob And my wife and kids And we ran into a place Real close to where you grew up Stevensville Do you know St. Joseph, Michigan?

[122] Yeah, yeah, I'm going there.

[123] My niece is getting married there, so I'm going to be going there.

[124] Oh, yeah.

[125] It's so beautiful, isn't it?

[126] Yeah.

[127] And you grew up just south of all the sand dunes that are along Lake Michigan.

[128] Yeah, well, right in Indiana dunes.

[129] So it was like where I grew up in northwest Indiana, there was people from Chicago would drive through Indiana to get to beautiful Michigan.

[130] No one would stay in Indiana.

[131] Let's be fair.

[132] They would throw a bag or two of McDonald's out.

[133] the window in route.

[134] It was the road.

[135] Indiana was the road to Michigan.

[136] But now Indiana Dunes very prestigious.

[137] Oh, is it?

[138] Have they, like, built up that area?

[139] It's gained a lot of prestige.

[140] Like, I think there was a New York Times article.

[141] Oh, my goodness.

[142] So, therefore, it makes it an important place.

[143] It is weird that it's identical in all ways, all measurable ways, to southern western Michigan and eastern southern Illinois.

[144] But I think it's all fast.

[145] I mean, this is where I'm a nerd on this stuff.

[146] but when I was a kid, Michigan was the star of the Midwest.

[147] Wow.

[148] You have to understand.

[149] The city of Detroit has lost 70 % of its population.

[150] You have to understand it was the fifth largest city in the country.

[151] And I grew up in a Rust Belt area, economic devastation.

[152] So are your parents from the South originally?

[153] Did they migrate north?

[154] No, they're from Iowa and Illinois.

[155] Okay.

[156] But Michigan was a real, like, it had all the manufacturing jobs.

[157] Yes.

[158] My grandparents left Kentucky to come up for those jobs.

[159] Oh, that's interesting.

[160] Yeah, we were just talking about it at lunch.

[161] So we're white trash together.

[162] Oh, 100%.

[163] Yeah.

[164] In fact, a lot of these...

[165] I'm from Georgia.

[166] I'm trash, too.

[167] Yeah, but not white.

[168] But you're a fancy trash.

[169] You're a different type of trash.

[170] Oh, okay.

[171] And her mom's a computer program and her dad is an engineer.

[172] Okay, fine.

[173] There's nothing trash about that.

[174] Fine, fine.

[175] There's no, like, I mean, your family did move north at one point, but quite a bit north.

[176] They did.

[177] But, like, how many generations, like, my father was the first one to go to college and his family?

[178] Mm -hmm.

[179] So, like, it's that, like, when I said that I wanted to be a comedian, there was a little bit of, like, do you know how long it took us to get to the middle class?

[180] Yeah.

[181] It took us a long time to get here.

[182] Like, we were coal miners, and we were.

[183] you know really kind of bar people you know it's like it took us a while yeah give your body to the career yeah and there's nothing left of the body at the end of the career it's crazy yeah and you're you're the youngest of six i am but when we look at these models you know yeah they hold pretty true when you have friends and you're like find out their birth order to me it seems to generally hold true i don't even know where you put number six it's like a baby on a baby on a baby so Were you like a mega baby?

[184] I went through, I did research on this when I was in my 20s.

[185] And supposedly there's one theory that the family dynamic is only through four kids and then it repeats.

[186] I would buy that.

[187] Oh, that's interesting.

[188] Yeah.

[189] So then it's...

[190] The fifth born is like a firstborn somehow.

[191] So, yeah.

[192] So like the fifth born is more responsible.

[193] So essentially it's two kids.

[194] So then I'm the youngest of those two kids.

[195] Okay.

[196] So I don't know.

[197] I don't know.

[198] That was a book I read when I was 23 in my white trash town.

[199] I say that would love in my heart.

[200] What was the name of the town?

[201] Well, a couple.

[202] I was, but my formative years in Highland and Milford, Michigan, which is all generally people were employed by the big three in some capacity, generally blue collar, 30 minutes out of Detroit.

[203] Oh, yeah.

[204] So Detroit area.

[205] But it is interestingly right where the suburbs end and then like cornfield starts.

[206] Yeah, that's the same where I was.

[207] Okay.

[208] So you got proper, proper hillbillies.

[209] Like kids got on the bus was shit all over their boots because they've been up since 4 .30 clean in a barn.

[210] Well, there was, you know, look, I remember there were summers where I would go to a party, one party I would be in a trailer, and the next party, I would be sitting on a bail of hay.

[211] Like, I remember sitting on a bail of hay going, you guys were sitting on a bail of hay and we could see Chicago in the distance.

[212] And I would try and convince my friends, let's drive to Chicago.

[213] And they're like, oh, I don't know.

[214] I don't know.

[215] So that was going to be one of my questions, but let me hold on to that just for one second, because back to the birth order thing.

[216] Yeah.

[217] In my town, when there was more than three boys in a family, the fourth was definitely going to jail or juvie.

[218] I mean, they were crazy because to compete with those other older four boys, they just got progressively crazier and crazier.

[219] Oh, that's interesting.

[220] What was the male -female breakdown of these six?

[221] It was four boys and two girls, but the two oldest were the girls.

[222] Okay, so it was really four boys in a row.

[223] It was four boys, but it's, you know, I mean, I've thought a lot about this.

[224] It's interesting because in, because, you know, I have this new special, but I'm always writing a new one.

[225] So in my new material, I've been talking about, like, my upbringing.

[226] The craziness, like, I was the youngest, but also I have three boys, too, and they're absolutely crazy.

[227] Uh -huh.

[228] And I look at them and I'm like, I was never that crazy.

[229] Oh, okay.

[230] So you guys were.

[231] Not that crazy.

[232] I was definitely highly impressionable, but my oldest brother, he was the black sheep of the family.

[233] Okay.

[234] He was the outlier.

[235] So, like, my dad was the first one to go to college, and they were kind of this Irish Catholic family that wanted to be kind of Kennedy -like.

[236] Sure.

[237] And so my brother was like, the first car he got was a pickup.

[238] Oh, he went the other way.

[239] So he totally, he rebelled by going, no, this is what I am.

[240] I'm country.

[241] And so, I'm country.

[242] Like dipping.

[243] You know, like he was, he dipped, I dipped.

[244] We all, you know, like it's Indiana.

[245] You're dipping.

[246] Yes, you are.

[247] And so.

[248] Can I tell you the very first time I chewed tobacco was detasseling corn and white pigeon Indiana and one of the other kids.

[249] All the 14 -year -old kids all had a serious chewing tobacco habit and none of the parents cared.

[250] And my cousin and I started like, hey, well, yeah, let's try that.

[251] And that's where I started in Indiana.

[252] By the way, did you get an incredible high?

[253] I was started with the Redmond or the beech nut.

[254] which is wad of tobacco in the cheek and no i thought oh this is great this is very manageable and then my crew leader who was like a 38 year old dude who loved 38 special and was a stud he gave me some copenhagen and i ended up on my back just staring up at the cornstocks going like when did i get here how long have i been laying here and yeah it was very disoriented no the first time i did dip was with my brothers and it's like such i never thought i'd talk about this out of my guess it's like uh is that I was with them, and my older brother, Mike, said, spit every time you taste something or you will get sick.

[255] Uh -huh.

[256] And so I kept spit.

[257] It's so funny, even though you're from Georgia, she has that look on her face like, it's so.

[258] Well, look, I mean, can we just, you're dipping right now.

[259] Yes, it's it.

[260] And you dip a lot.

[261] Yes.

[262] So I had quit for seven years.

[263] I stupidly found my way back while trying to quit other nesting.

[264] Now I've been back and forth, month on, month off.

[265] You know, I'm addicted to the nicotine gum.

[266] I'm addicted to all the forms.

[267] nicotine.

[268] So here's the lozenges.

[269] I have the gum, and I'm just trying not to smoke.

[270] It's been 15 years.

[271] But is it the nicotine or is it the ritual?

[272] Or both?

[273] Or does it got to be one or the other?

[274] Yeah.

[275] It's, it's so interesting.

[276] Well, let's talk about this.

[277] So you've talked a little bit about, you know, we're talking about like a highly addictive personality, right?

[278] Yeah.

[279] And I'm somebody who deals with in my eating is like, you know, it's one of the pieces of my comedy.

[280] But it's really is addictive behavior.

[281] Right.

[282] So as a parent, aren't you terrified?

[283] Terrified.

[284] Well.

[285] Or do you think that like, oh, no, it's not going to happen?

[286] No. I mean, my current estimation is that one of the two of them will definitely be in a treatment center at some point.

[287] And I think it's just a part of a whole suite of behavior.

[288] And I like a lot of that behavior.

[289] And I guess I'm cool with the reality that to get that, you might have that as well.

[290] it's interesting do you do you do you of course without singling out one of your kids do you feel like one and or more of them have your predilection for obsessive i don't my wife when we were dating it was a joke like oh we're both crazy if we have kids if we get married our kids will be crazy like it was this running joke yeah and our first kid is she's like an angel then the rest of them just crazy and i've got five And so it is one of those things where, I mean, I grew up in this Irish Catholic family where I was literally making pouring drinks for my dad when I was 10.

[291] Sure.

[292] I was like, you want a scotch.

[293] Here you go, dad.

[294] You know what I mean?

[295] I was getting a pack.

[296] I was sent to the grocery store to buy cigarettes when I was eight.

[297] Yeah.

[298] So it's like, and I don't say that like I'm so wounded by that.

[299] I'm just saying that like the experience that my children have, you know, just like also like, you.

[300] you know, dealing with depression and anger and stuff like that.

[301] Like, when I was growing up, that was like part of being a boy is that you were angry.

[302] Sure, sure.

[303] Whereas now, you know, like, I even joke around about it in my act.

[304] It's like, my dad never went to a parent -teacher conference.

[305] My dad didn't know I went to school.

[306] So it's like there's a level of involvement, which is so dramatically different, but how much of it is nature and how much of it is nurture?

[307] I don't know.

[308] Right.

[309] And, you know, almost every debate we end up having on here with, like, the professors that come in and stuff is like, it's definitely some, you know, some ratio and no one knows.

[310] Right.

[311] And one month, it's pointing more and more to nurture and then one month it's nature.

[312] You know, depending on what study came out that month.

[313] But did you see three identical strangers?

[314] Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[315] I mean, I, look, I love that movie, but there is part of me that's like documentaries, you know, you construct.

[316] a narrative.

[317] Oh, yeah.

[318] You know, it's, it's how Nazis use propaganda.

[319] Do you know what I mean?

[320] It's how, you know, we motivated our troops in World War II to believe that the Japanese were monsters.

[321] Do you know what I mean?

[322] It is.

[323] So, like, I do sit there and I look at documentaries and every now and then I'm like, how much are they crafting this?

[324] Oh, yeah.

[325] Do you know what I mean?

[326] I even feel that way even in I'm somebody who consumes a lot of news and I always sit there and try and cut it in half and I go if I cut it in half and I still think that I'm like that's pretty bad do I mean like in this day that we live in it's like if you cut all the bad news in half you cut the school shootings in half it's still horrifying yeah yeah yeah it's still rough it's still very rough I'll tell you the moment I had watching documentaries which made me admit that was who killed the electric car.

[327] Now, I happen to have the very unique experience of having worked for General Motors for 14 years, so I know what happens to all cars that are in a press fleet.

[328] They all end up getting smashed.

[329] They all get put in the crusher because it's cheaper to get that tax write off for full value than sell a car with miles on it with an extended warranty.

[330] They do that with clothing, too.

[331] Yes.

[332] So I've driven many cars to the crusher in my youth.

[333] And the whole smoking gun of that documentary who killed the electric car is they catch like aerial photograph of them putting the electric car into a crusher to destroy the evidence.

[334] And I was like, wow, if I didn't know a lot about this, I would be buying in hook, line, and sinker.

[335] Like, well, that's red -handed.

[336] I'm watching them drive the thing into the crusher and make it disappear.

[337] Yeah.

[338] So that was the time where I was like, oh, maybe I need to be a hair more critical about my conclusions I accept from these.

[339] But I'm a junkie anyways for documentaries.

[340] I just love them.

[341] Love it.

[342] Okay.

[343] Back to Indiana.

[344] Yeah.

[345] Now, just to bring everyone up to speed.

[346] Do you remember the first time we met?

[347] I do, not to put you on the spot.

[348] Was it on the airplane?

[349] Yes, it was on the airplane.

[350] And you and I were seated next to each other on a long flight from L .A. to New York.

[351] Yeah.

[352] And in my mind, I start with insecurity.

[353] I'm like, well, I recognize him.

[354] I doubt he recognizes me. Yeah.

[355] And then I think...

[356] It's a story of my life, by the way.

[357] Everyone's life.

[358] Everyone's doing that, unless, well, with the exception of some egos.

[359] Hopefully Brad Pitt's, like, they know who I am.

[360] This person knows who I am.

[361] But at any rate, I think you started right off with, you said hi or something.

[362] I said hi, as I like your stuff.

[363] And then you quoted a tweet of mine back to me. Oh, wow.

[364] You said, I am an owner of many guns, but I also wish they would all go away.

[365] Or something like that.

[366] You had remembered some gun tweet of mine.

[367] Yeah.

[368] And then we just shot the shit, I think effortlessly, for five hours.

[369] I really enjoyed sitting next to you.

[370] and I've always had kind of like a great feeling about you ever since.

[371] What I was shocked to learn about you is like football was your life early on, yeah?

[372] Yeah, I mean, well, it's interesting because also being a parent, because I think I was raised to believe that sports is what kept me out of trouble.

[373] Sports is where I learned about community and the importance of teamwork.

[374] And then I turned and I've got my kids and I also know that, you know, you know, can't force them to do anything.

[375] So like, particularly my two older ones, I was like, all right, we're going to do soccer, we're going to do this, we're going to do that.

[376] And one of them kind of got into it.

[377] The other one just deeply resented every kind of athletic move.

[378] So it did make me think, like, were athletics as important and positive the experience was, was it just because my older brother loved football?

[379] Sure.

[380] Do you know what I mean?

[381] It's like, because I did a lot of things that he did i mean i know that have my childhood my mother dressed us the same you know he was essentially an irish twin you know so it's weird because i have this you know like there's the answer i would give if i was talking on a sports podcast and then there's also like because i feel as though you know i'm a creative person but i feel like it was not encouraged and i'm sure it's the same with you No one I grew up with was anywhere close to the entertainment industry.

[382] Maybe you did know.

[383] No, no. But like my town, the closest thing was the marching band.

[384] Sure.

[385] Or that Gary, Indiana was semi -close.

[386] Yeah.

[387] And that was kind of, but it was, you know, I remember seeing John Mellencamp on S &L when I was little.

[388] I remember watching David Letterman and thinking, oh, who did they?

[389] know to like I just didn't think it was because these are in Indiana as well right yeah I didn't think it was a realistic pursuit mm -hmm it was a kind of a pipe dream it was kind of like being let's get real we I live in Los Angeles I have two kids both their parents are in show business and I still would think their chances are very nil oh it's yeah you know what I'm saying like and we're as is connected as you could be so of course if I was a parent in Michigan I'd be like yeah that's cute you are funny but let's get Real.

[390] Oh, well, you know, I had this conversation with someone recently.

[391] Like, dead poet society, how, you know, I know that the dad was a bad guy, but he was kind of being cautious.

[392] What did he say?

[393] He just didn't want them to get swept up in all this poetry.

[394] Do you know what I mean?

[395] And the pursuit of being an actor and then I don't even remember the movie.

[396] Didn't that guy kill himself or something like that?

[397] He's like, I want to be an actor.

[398] If I can't be an actor.

[399] If I can't be.

[400] an actor i'm killing myself right first of all that's horrible right you know but it's like the dad's like you lose all the roles you're not alive to audition for that that that old axiom it's like because i think there was also this belief that show people were kind of like grifters and and uh but like we're we grew up it was just like no you don't have a shot right you don't have a shot yes you're gonna be penniless you could take you could take a bus to l -a and be a prostitute.

[401] Yeah, that's true.

[402] That's where everyone was going to end up, for sure, or addicted to drugs.

[403] Which my case was the reality.

[404] But you had to be good at football in high school because you ended up playing in college, which, to my understanding, is very hard.

[405] But I walked on at Purdue.

[406] I don't want to misrepresent it.

[407] Like, you know, I was a football star and I had a scholarship.

[408] Yeah.

[409] And then when I went to Georgetown, it was Division III.

[410] And, you know, when I quit, I was starting.

[411] but it was it was division three like there are really good high school teams that can beat some division oh really yeah okay in what position were you playing i was center that means you snap the ball i know very little about football yeah so you would snap the ball and you are taking the first hit basically i mean everyone's coming through you yeah do you ever freak out that you may have CTE or anything i mean there's probably i mean yeah there were there were plenty of headaches that I just dealt with.

[412] Sure.

[413] Bluriness of vision.

[414] But there's, you know, linemen are, they're not getting that long hit that a receiver.

[415] That's true.

[416] No one's going 20 miles an hour.

[417] They're also like 300 pounds plus.

[418] Yeah, they're big people.

[419] Yeah.

[420] And when I quit, I was just, I didn't know what I wanted to do.

[421] I just remember, like, I remember like my first job out of college.

[422] Well, really quick, you got a degree in finance, right?

[423] In finance.

[424] because I was essentially, you know, raised like, you should do this?

[425] And I'm like, I don't know.

[426] Should I do that?

[427] And so I got this degree in finance, and I got a job in Tampa as a legal consultant where I would calculate law claims.

[428] It sounds fascinating.

[429] At 22.

[430] At 22.

[431] And you're in Tampa.

[432] And I was in Tampa.

[433] And I remember, this shows you how old I am.

[434] I wrote an episode of Miami Vice.

[435] Oh, wonderful.

[436] I wrote an episode of Miami Vice.

[437] You're very close to it at that point.

[438] And I was like, you know what?

[439] I'm going to portray myself as the drug lord.

[440] Oh, right, an episode.

[441] Because, by the way, everyone in the entertainment industry is delusional.

[442] So, like, yeah, it starts with delusion.

[443] Very much delusional at this point, and still delusional.

[444] But I remember I had this mini -cassette recorder that I would talk into.

[445] And I would say, I don't know what I'm going to do.

[446] Because I essentially followed the rules that everyone was supposed to do.

[447] I studied hard, I went to a good college, I did the major you're supposed to, I was making decent money, and I was miserable.

[448] Mm -hmm.

[449] And I was like, I got a single at this time?

[450] I was single.

[451] Okay.

[452] Because a good woman could have got you through that.

[453] A good woman could have been a real detriment to your overall future at that moment, right?

[454] You know, I don't think that's true.

[455] Okay.

[456] And that's not just, maybe I'm not enough of a romantic, but I think that I'm so happy doing.

[457] stand -up and acting like people that retire are like I'm not doing it anymore I'm like what are you talking about it's not as if I'm doing it for the money like coming up with an idea as much as you might wake up and go I got to do this podcast there's when you're done with it you've created something and maybe you've helped someone but like more it's the creative juice the creative fulfillment and so like that's when I was 22 I didn't know what I wanted to do but I knew that there was this creative outlet that was really empty right and so you're just kind of angsty and in in uncomfortable yeah miserable and are you drinking a lot then are you doing anything to alleviate that i was working out a lot oh you were okay you must have had like really powerful thighs i have chicken legs but as a center i was in great shape and i did have a girlfriend at the time who i think she was so i was 22 i think she was like 33 oh good for you and she was and it was one of those things where I never brought up how old I was.

[458] Okay.

[459] And then she would talk about her brother who was like 24 and she'd be like he's so immature and all that stuff.

[460] Oh wow.

[461] And then she found out my age and she was very frustrated.

[462] Okay.

[463] But sounds like it's a little bit on her.

[464] She could have asked you.

[465] Yeah, but you know I could have been more forthright.

[466] Although in her defense, have you seen these college football players, they look, even when I watch college, I'm like, these guys still look older than me, even though they're 25 years younger than me. They just look, they have beards and shit, and they're humongous.

[467] It's a little misleading.

[468] But she assumed.

[469] She did.

[470] She made some of something.

[471] But I, you know, I could have clarified a couple times.

[472] You knew better than to tell her, which lets us know everything we need to know.

[473] I knew better.

[474] Yes.

[475] I knew that she was And when you go to her home and stuff?

[476] Yes.

[477] Okay.

[478] She owned a home.

[479] Was she divorced?

[480] No. She was a single, successful person, and I was What a mature relationship?

[481] I lived in an apartment and And we went, we met at the gym, and then, it's so funny, I haven't even thought about this.

[482] And then, but we would go to this fancy restaurant.

[483] Drink wine?

[484] Yeah, drink wine.

[485] And like, I love this.

[486] It was like the first time, I was like, this French food's good.

[487] There's like a romance novel.

[488] I'm coming from, you know, I'm coming from college where I was like eating mac and cheese.

[489] I was like, this stuff's good.

[490] Yeah, it's flavorful.

[491] But she was great, but I was miserable.

[492] Can I ask a really low bro question?

[493] Was she very advanced?

[494] sexually at that point?

[495] Like, I just imagine being 22 and settling up with a 33 -year -old homeowner, and I just feel like she'd be very confident.

[496] Yeah, I'm sure that she was probably like, this guy's pretty lame.

[497] But...

[498] Wish she could put these big thighs into it.

[499] Jesus.

[500] And I do shows in Tampa, and I'm like, I wonder if she's...

[501] Sure, sure.

[502] Well, now she's in her 60s.

[503] Yeah.

[504] Oh, there's one more low -brow question.

[505] Because I'm just now putting myself in her shoes.

[506] If I'm 33, I meet this 22 -year -old book.

[507] lying to myself intentionally and acting like he's 28.

[508] I would say I've always looked older.

[509] I believe that.

[510] I believe you.

[511] Like when I was, you know, like, you know, you get scripts all the time.

[512] Like, it's like you get a script and they're like, like, I was going to do this movie this summer, but it coincided with a family vacation where I would play a grandpa.

[513] Oh, geez.

[514] And I was like, like, it's in the script.

[515] It's like, he's a grandpa and he's there with his grandma.

[516] He's there with his wife.

[517] And I'm like, and but like, as a character actor, actor.

[518] You've dealt with enough of this You've dealt with enough of like His ugly friend I guess I'm auditioning to be the ugly friend Oh yeah it's a real demoralizing process You become very self -aware I remember when I was on that 70s show And my niece who is getting married again In Michigan in October She was a little girl and she was like Why do you play a nerdy guy?

[519] Oh sure She was like why are you playing a nerdy guy And I'm like what's wrong with that that's the funniest character to play yeah and she's like but you should be cool don't you want to be cool and I'm like I just want to work well first of all yes I would love to be cool that ship sailed and now I want to make a living and now I want to play a complex interesting character yes stay tuned for more armchair expert if you dare what's up guys this your girl Kiki and my podcast is back with a new season, and let me tell you, it's too good.

[520] And I'm diving into the brains of entertainment's best and brightest, okay?

[521] Every episode, I bring on a friend and have a real conversation.

[522] And I don't mean just friends.

[523] I mean the likes of Amy Poehler, Kel Mitchell, Vivica Fox, the list goes on.

[524] So follow, watch, and listen to Baby.

[525] This is Kiki Palmer on the Wondery app, or wherever you get your podcast.

[526] We've all been there.

[527] Turning to the internet to self -diagnose our inexplicable pains, debilitating body aches, sudden fevers and strange rashes.

[528] Though our minds tend to spiral to worst -case scenarios, it's usually nothing, but for an unlucky few, these unsuspecting symptoms can start the clock ticking on a terrifying medical mystery.

[529] Like the unexplainable death of a retired firefighter, whose body was found at home by his son, except it looked like he had been cremated, or the time when an entire town started jumping from buildings and seeing tigers on their ceilings.

[530] Hey, listeners, it's Mr. Ballin here, and I'm here to tell you about my podcast.

[531] It's called Mr. Ballin's Medical Mysteries.

[532] Each terrifying true story will be sure to keep you up at night.

[533] Follow Mr. Ballin's medical mysteries wherever you get your podcasts.

[534] Prime members can listen early and ad free on Amazon music.

[535] But back to her.

[536] Yeah.

[537] Now that you reflect back on it, or was there like an inordinate amount of request that you like pick her up or anything?

[538] Oh, lifting up.

[539] Yeah.

[540] Like if I'm her and I think.

[541] I see this strong buck right out of college in the football program.

[542] I'm like, I'm going to be in the air the whole time for this.

[543] Do you see what I'm saying, Monica, a little bit?

[544] I remember her at the gym.

[545] She was in amazing shape herself.

[546] Okay, so she might have picked you up.

[547] It was, you know, and by the way, when I was leaving for New York, she's like, you're just going to move to New York and get fat.

[548] And she was right.

[549] What a kind thing for her to say to a 22 -year -old.

[550] But I did find what I wanted to do in New York.

[551] I didn't know what I wanted to do, but I knew that I would figure it out in New York.

[552] Okay, so you leave Tampa after how many years?

[553] I was there just a year.

[554] Okay.

[555] I have to imagine too lonely other than because...

[556] Oh, very brutal.

[557] Yeah.

[558] Very brutal.

[559] You didn't say, were you drinking a lot to just deal with it?

[560] Not too much because I don't drink and drive.

[561] So it's like none of that.

[562] Well, you missed out.

[563] Yeah.

[564] There was a whole era you were allowed to do.

[565] Oh, yeah.

[566] Yes.

[567] The first half of every work shift was like guys explaining, I don't know all the fuck I got home.

[568] And everyone was, that was a great story back then.

[569] My father, there would be like, yeah, he was, he drove home, drunk, and he dented the car.

[570] And it wasn't kind of like how embarrassing.

[571] It was like, yeah, that's what happens.

[572] Yes.

[573] My dad, he was a tremendous car salesman.

[574] And Ford had this competition.

[575] Whoever sold the most Ford trucks in a year got a free LTT.

[576] And my father got three free LTDs over the course of like four years.

[577] And he rolled all three of these LTDs within the first few months of owning them.

[578] We had totaled LTDs that were brand new, like 600 miles on him, in our front yard, because he'd get shitface and put it in a ditch and end up upside down.

[579] And again, none of the neighbors were like, why the hell that, you know, everyone was doing it.

[580] It's so interesting that as a culture, we essentially eliminated drunk driving.

[581] It is completely socially unacceptable to do it.

[582] Thank God, yeah.

[583] And there's other stuff where like, can't figure that one out.

[584] You know what I mean?

[585] Right.

[586] And it was, I don't know.

[587] That's why I'm running for president, because I'm going to solve this.

[588] I can't wait for you to do it.

[589] Take your time, though, because I like kind of a long, like, you know, multi -episode arc. Yeah.

[590] I don't want you to do it like day 10 of being in office.

[591] Yeah.

[592] Just give me some drama along the way.

[593] I'm going to do it around, you know, re -election.

[594] Okay.

[595] You pop in at the last minute.

[596] Then I'm just blame it.

[597] I'm like, I can't get it done.

[598] These people.

[599] So you move up to New York and do you go there with a job opportunity in finance?

[600] I had a friend from college who helped me get a job in advertising.

[601] Oh, right, advertising.

[602] And I was an account guy, so I was a suit guy.

[603] And so, like, my progression to creativity was very slow.

[604] I was an account guy, and then I worked in advertising, and eventually I had this boss, and she was like, I don't know if I should fire you or make you a copywriter.

[605] She was an amazing woman.

[606] And she goes, I'm going to make you a copywriter.

[607] And so, like, this incredible gift, I had already started stand -up.

[608] Like, I was trying to get fired.

[609] And she goes, I'm going to make you a copywriter.

[610] So then being a copywriter, I learned a lot about writing and efficiency of writing.

[611] And, I mean, advertising is brutal.

[612] And then eventually I got laid off.

[613] They had to wake me up to lay me off in advertising because I would...

[614] You were out at night doing both acting classes and stand -up, correct?

[615] Yes.

[616] I would leave work, go to an acting class, and then I would go and hang out.

[617] and do stand -up and i would have to go on much later at night and then i would sometimes sleep in and or i would make it in and then i would shut my door and i would sleep of sure and i would smoke you used to smoke at work yeah yeah i used to smoke on stage people like there's videos of me smoking doing stand -up and my wife discovered them and she's like what what are you doing yeah it looks crazy now right it's just insane yeah i would be doing a 10 -minute sat and I would be smoking a cigarette.

[618] Well, think of Dennis Leary.

[619] Think of, you know, just one after another, bang, bang, bang, yeah.

[620] Just insane.

[621] Always one lit.

[622] Now, if I have this right, your first seven years doing stand -up, you're trying a bunch of different things.

[623] Yes, yeah.

[624] In your road to becoming you and finding, I guess, your voice, what acts did you try on?

[625] I would say that, you know, trying on all these things, but the biggest hurdle was overwhelming stage fright dramatic stage fright like I was so jealous of my friends that had a bar mitzvah because I knew that a bar mitzvah you gave a speech and you gave and you killed everyone kills at their bar mitzvah so I was always jealous but I was mostly dealing with stage fright so I would try on different things I would try angry I would try energetic I would so like first time I did stand up it's on the DVD not that anyone buys DVDs anymore of Beyond the Pill I put my first set on there and it's essentially what I do right now but I thought that I had to do something else so I did political I did impressions right I did impressions who did you do because when I read that I immediately of course want to hear you do someone you did Jimmy Stewart would talk like that's a little bit you gotta understand your money's not in bills Potter's not selling Potter's buying I'm definitely going to try that when I get home But What other ones Monica welcome to your new Hell What to say that word You're doing an impression at Jeremy Stewart now No one even knows who he is It's the most useless impression Because who knows Maybe I'm doing it better maybe you're Oh wow Wow.

[626] You talk like this, and then you talk like that.

[627] Oh, that's nice.

[628] And so, but I did a lot of my, like, even when I was a little kid, I did an impression of my dad.

[629] Mm -hmm.

[630] So.

[631] Do you guys have similar voices?

[632] No, my dad.

[633] He smoked a lot more.

[634] Oh, wow.

[635] It was much deeper.

[636] And is it, what's your name, Dix?

[637] Dick's Shephead.

[638] Yeah.

[639] Dix Shepard.

[640] Yep.

[641] Shepard.

[642] Yeah.

[643] What's your name again?

[644] Mike.

[645] Oh, Mike.

[646] Okay, not Mike, oh, Mike.

[647] You can call me Mike.

[648] Okay, I'll do that because the tenor of your voice has me a little scared.

[649] What the hell is wrong with the yard?

[650] What is your name?

[651] Monica.

[652] Monica sounds exotic.

[653] So it's interesting.

[654] How did you get on with your dad?

[655] I mean, it was complex because I think that I, and I see it in my children, kind of this, How old are your kids?

[656] Four and six, and they're both girls.

[657] Okay, so, yeah.

[658] But, like, there's kind of like this developmental age where children get caught up.

[659] It's like the injustice.

[660] Like, why do I have to go to bed?

[661] Like, I see my eight -year -old getting into this.

[662] He's like, you're not the boss of me. And then you're like, I am the boss.

[663] And they're like, but you work for mom.

[664] And so it's, but, like, for my father, I was definitely always questioning authority.

[665] And my siblings and my mom was like, you're not going to change him.

[666] And I'm like, I don't care if I change him.

[667] This is wrong.

[668] And so it was very much that.

[669] And it was, I wouldn't say it was combative, but it was, it's so strange because it was one of those things where he was of a different era.

[670] I mean, your dad was from a different era too, where it was dad's home.

[671] I did an episode of the Jim Gaffigan show.

[672] My wife actually wrote it and directed the episode, but it's all about my dad.

[673] I played my dad, and then my son played me. Oh, no kidding.

[674] It was, it's a, it's called the Mike Africa.

[675] That could almost be like an hour session in a therapy room.

[676] Yeah, like where you were playing.

[677] And by the way, my son, who is amazing, who also has a little bit of me, like, don't tell me what to do.

[678] And because people don't think that I'm like that, but I'm very much have a problem with authority.

[679] Yeah.

[680] very much.

[681] And, you know, people are like, oh, you're the clean comic.

[682] But it's like, I still resent authority.

[683] Sure.

[684] And so, like, I even sometimes think, like, the fact that even the normalcy of being a comedian, I rebel against.

[685] Right.

[686] As a comedian, you're not supposed to do this.

[687] You're supposed to do this and this.

[688] And I inherently kind of go against that.

[689] Like, I resent, I'm kind of resistant to groups.

[690] Like, I have friends, but, like, it's like, we're all going to go to a Yankees game.

[691] I'm like, I'm not going.

[692] Do you know, it's a strange thing.

[693] Sure, sure.

[694] So it's almost like you just have this punk rock strain for no real objective.

[695] Obviously, it's not punk rock.

[696] But you know what I'm saying?

[697] But, yes, I totally do.

[698] It's a little bit.

[699] But I wonder, so my, my, when I really drill into it, it's, it's, or maybe I'm just telling myself this, but I feel like from a very young age, I was like, why do we all do this?

[700] So church, the fact that you were Catholic, I used to have to go to Catholic service with my grandparents, and I was just like, for me, it felt like madness.

[701] And why is everyone agreeing to this?

[702] And no one likes it.

[703] And if they say they like it, their line, and why is everyone ignoring that no one wants to be here?

[704] But everyone, you know, I was consumed by those thoughts.

[705] Or why on earth is this new stepdad going to tell us how we go to bed now?

[706] This doesn't make sense.

[707] I just, you had a very hard time getting with the program.

[708] Let's get to my detriment.

[709] Let me, let me break some of the.

[710] this down because I actually think that I mean I'm a comedian which is kind of by nature kind of suspicious and cynical and questioning and so like I lived across from the church I eventually got married in and you know like when I was dating my girlfriend who then became my wife and she was she was kind of Catholic not as Catholic as she became I was very kind of like, come on, exactly what you're saying.

[711] But the individual path to all of this, to your recovery, to my belief system, to her, you know, exotic dancing, it is all very unique.

[712] You know, recovery in itself, the idea of a higher power, isn't that?

[713] I mean, obviously, everyone has their own definition of a higher power.

[714] But that is, like, the failings of the Catholic Church, the bureaucracy, the horrible, horrible things that have occurred because of that name are human failings.

[715] That is not the personal philosophy that I adhere to.

[716] The personal philosophy that I hear to, which is the equivalent of a higher power, I would think.

[717] is something very personal.

[718] You know what I mean?

[719] And it's weird.

[720] And like I said earlier, I almost wonder if it's my way of saying, you know, what the most rebellious thing to do is to, like, say I believe in God.

[721] Because it sounds anti -intellectual.

[722] And it's characterized as anti -intellectual.

[723] But it is, you know, my personal journey to that, which I never thought I would.

[724] I lived across from this church for 15 years.

[725] You never went in it.

[726] and then i ended up getting married in it right and as a kid it would have been contrary to not accept it all but now as a working comedian it's probably quite contrary to be into it yeah and so by the way it's also complex it's not as if i don't doubt all of it it's not as if uh i don't cringe at the news articles it's not as if i don't see the hypocrisy of it all you know for me it's how i keep in touch with a certain level of humility It's like, if you talk to me in a week, my association with it would be different.

[727] I mean, my wife almost died, and it's like...

[728] Of what?

[729] Of a brain tumor.

[730] Oh, my goodness.

[731] I think that humans, you know, we kind of have these moments of where people are dying, and we behave completely differently.

[732] You know, like friends that are devout atheists are like, I'm praying for genie.

[733] And I didn't sit there.

[734] and go, hey, I thought you were an atheist.

[735] I mean?

[736] Because it's, you know, I also understand that people choosing not to believe in something is something very valuable.

[737] They should be able to do that.

[738] But I do think that it's everyone's individual journey, as long as you don't push that shit on someone else.

[739] Yeah, or legislate it.

[740] But when I was the same kid that was in church going, this is the worst thing ever.

[741] Yeah, yeah.

[742] This is like a meeting of people with bad breath.

[743] What are we doing here?

[744] Yes.

[745] So, but some of it is, I don't know.

[746] It is interesting.

[747] Now, I can say, like, so for me, meetings, that's basically my inroad to recognizing the value of coming together as a community.

[748] I get a ton out of that fellowship, right?

[749] Like, I can see the value of community.

[750] I think, you know, evolutionarily, we've got a lot of evidence that we're a social animal that should be gathering in that fashion.

[751] So that I find immense joy in, and I can see the value of it.

[752] And the higher power thing for me is simply something makes the sun come up and go down.

[753] It's not me. But that's as far as I'll take out.

[754] But when you say God grant me this one I do except the things I cannot change and the courage of change.

[755] Who is that?

[756] It's nobody.

[757] It's nobody.

[758] No, me personally, I believe that I know when I'm in self -will.

[759] I know it.

[760] I can feel it.

[761] I know when I'm trying to bend the rest of the world around me to fit into my will.

[762] I don't actually need God to tell me when that is.

[763] But would you say you're atheist or agnostic?

[764] I say I'm atheist.

[765] Now, would I be delighted if I looked in my backyard and Jesus was levitating?

[766] It doesn't have to be Jesus, but like, but what you're describing, I think, by the way, I can't believe this is that one.

[767] I just want to promote my amateur question.

[768] But I think that there's...

[769] By the way, can I also say something?

[770] Yeah.

[771] These are the conversations that I love.

[772] Me too.

[773] That's why I love comedians.

[774] Because I have friends that are Occupy Wall Street.

[775] I have friends that...

[776] I have a friend who works at Fox News.

[777] Uh -huh.

[778] And it's like, even I say that and people are like, really?

[779] But the thing is, it's like, I like different opinions.

[780] Yeah.

[781] I'm not seeking orthodoxy or agreement.

[782] No, I'd be bored out of my mind.

[783] Right.

[784] If you thought the exact same way I did, I wouldn't want to talk to you.

[785] But, like, I do think that there is something about the questioning.

[786] It's like, I think that humans, because we're touching on the same thing, whether there is someone in that position of higher power.

[787] It's about a powerlessness, right?

[788] Yes, I believe in humility and powerlessness.

[789] And when I am frustrated and angry, I'm angry because I believe I somehow.

[790] have control over this situation and that's the that's where all the uncomfortableness comes from that's where the set but when i'm in touch with the fact that i should be focusing on gratitude that's when i feel happier uh me too and when i recognize i'm one of seven billion ants that are literally trying to stay busy until we die right that's what's happening well it's Staying busy.

[791] Prozac also helps, too.

[792] Well, one thing I was going to say, because you asked if he was an atheist or agnostic, which atheism is as definitive as a devout believer.

[793] Well, I don't believe that.

[794] So, yes, in some ways, I agree with you.

[795] But I think in other ways, people are, some people that are, I think it's a big spectrum, let's say that.

[796] And I think there's a big sector of agnostics that are like, I know something's out there, but I don't know what.

[797] Right.

[798] So I'm not there.

[799] Because I don't believe there's something out there.

[800] But also they're saying I don't know.

[801] But I'm not arrogant enough to think that I might not be proven wrong.

[802] I simply don't know.

[803] And it's leaning to me if I evaluate the proof that there's nothing there.

[804] I just, here's what I wanted to say.

[805] It's like, can we all agree that human beings have this generation by generation arrogance that is so baffling?

[806] Like, they used to put leeches on people to hear.

[807] them.

[808] Those were the smartest people in society.

[809] They're like, you know what?

[810] We're going to do it.

[811] We're going to bleed this person.

[812] That was the smartest thing of that day.

[813] Right.

[814] And so when we have this belief that we have figured it out, no one wants to say, I don't know.

[815] Right.

[816] I'm very comfortable saying I don't know.

[817] Yeah.

[818] Yeah.

[819] I think that's why we're running together as president.

[820] Yes.

[821] Wait, I have a question.

[822] Was there a shift, like an actual moment where you were like, I'm going to walk into the church or i'm gonna well you know it's not you know it's weird because it's so loaded because i used to have jokes about how the catholic church is like being a cubs fan it's just now the cubs won the world series so it's like you know it doesn't matter but some of it for me is i need the idea is not so much that someone or something can forgive me but that something's on my side here let me draw this analogy.

[823] I think also talking about a faith or a belief system is just as ineffective as listing the topics of a comedy special because if you list the topics of a comedy special, it sounds stupid.

[824] Right.

[825] Like, oh, you got to watch Seinfeld.

[826] It's about traffic and then tied.

[827] And then it talks about appendix.

[828] Yeah.

[829] You know what I mean?

[830] It's like it sounds horrible.

[831] So my personal understanding, some of it is forgiveness like i had to get to the point where i've done bad things i've murdered people right no i've done bad things and instead of like in this cycle of kind of like i'm a bad person therefore i can do other bad things i had to be like no you know what i am going to embrace the fact that i can be forgiven for things all right right so so we have a very similar hope for people right which is you said I've done bad things.

[832] I do bad things.

[833] I currently do bad things.

[834] I'm going to do bad things until I'm dead.

[835] Right.

[836] And I've done horrendous things in the past when I was an addict.

[837] But I would argue that because everyone's lying, they deal in shame and they can't wait to shame someone, whether it's a neighbor or someone in the community or social media or public, that because there's no safe haven for being flawed that we had to have this bigger being that was benevolent and could forgive us and actually I think it's a it's a medication for treating the symptom you know I feel like by creating this safe place in a church where you go into the box and you say I fucked my sister -in -law and I blah blah blah yeah which everyone needs I think I think that's only a result of the fact that everyone's full of shit and afraid to live out loud about that it's flawed and messy and fucked up.

[838] And I don't think sequestering it helps for eradicating it.

[839] You know what I'm saying?

[840] Yeah.

[841] It's almost like we have a secret place to go admit our sins.

[842] But I think that's only because there's no safe place to do it in real life.

[843] Well, you know, there is also something.

[844] I think that being from a small town in the Midwest, and there is part of me, like, and I don't know as a Midwestern or a Georgian that you were like, they're not just flyover areas.

[845] They're perfectly normal people that are not idiots.

[846] And so, like, all I wanted to do when I was a kid was leave Indiana.

[847] That's all I wanted to do.

[848] And I got to New York, and I realized immediately how Midwestern I was.

[849] Sure, sure.

[850] I walked on stage and people were like, Midwestern.

[851] And I'm like, what?

[852] And so there is part of me that also I do think, because we're talking a little bit about shaming and stuff like that, I do think there is this arrogance and condescension to the middle class, and I would almost say the working class, you know, and being a successful guy who has children, I'm like sitting there going, if I smell any condescension to someone who didn't go to college or like maybe has a belief system that you think is silly, don't ever go there because I am those people.

[853] And I bring that up in this kind of age when you're describing kind of the shame thing that I think that we live in this age where indirectly there is a shaming going on of working class people.

[854] There's a shaming of people that if you don't have the exact same belief systems, which because of fortune and the miracle of our lives we've been exposed to, that I think that there is this shaming of like, oh, Nebraska.

[855] Oh, my God, Nebraska.

[856] Uh -huh.

[857] That is, like, if they were talking about an ethnic group, it would not be accepted.

[858] Sure, sure.

[859] But there is, like, when I first moved to New York, they're like, oh, all the people from the South are racist.

[860] Mm -hmm.

[861] And I'm like, really, have you gone 10 minutes outside of New York City?

[862] Because it's not that different.

[863] Right.

[864] And by the way, in the South, I don't run into constant racism.

[865] By the way, in the south, they're going, oh, in New York, everyone's rude.

[866] So I don't think anyone's got a monopoly on generalizing, stereotyping, xenophobia.

[867] One is coming from a more arrogant place, for sure, like a nose up.

[868] Yeah.

[869] They're uneducated.

[870] If they just knew this, they'd think like I do.

[871] I totally agree that that exists and happens broadly.

[872] Stay tuned for more armchair experts, if you dare.

[873] Well, because you just said you have a friend that works for Fox News and you're like, oh, I get shit for that.

[874] Similarly, I was on a sitcom the last year and a half called The Ranch, which is a right -wing sitcom.

[875] It's a right -leaning sitcom, yeah.

[876] Oh, really?

[877] And what's so funny is, well, that's where I'm going with this.

[878] I have had numerous actor friends of mine say, wow, I don't know if I could do that.

[879] And I've said, yeah, but remember when I told you I got offered to play Jeffrey Donald, You were pumped for me. Like, oh, yeah, that'd be fucking awesome, play a serial killer.

[880] And I'm like, think how you've elevated.

[881] How important you've made politics is that it'd be more soothing for me to play a serial killer than someone who's right to center.

[882] That's a little crazy.

[883] So the premise of that show is that you gave up the city and you moved to the, to Nebraska.

[884] No, no, no, no. Bless this mess is not right wing.

[885] I'm also on a show on Netflix called The Ranch with Sam Elliott and Ashton Coucher.

[886] And that is definitely right leaning.

[887] It is.

[888] Yes.

[889] There's Hillary jokes.

[890] There's, you know, it's very pro -gun.

[891] It's very pro.

[892] Don't tread on me. You know, it's...

[893] That's interesting.

[894] I don't know that anyone's politics are that.

[895] I think they all decided people on the right deserve a sitcom, too, and I happen to agree with that.

[896] Of course.

[897] Yes.

[898] So I'm happy to entertain anyone who finds my brand of entertainment pleasing.

[899] By the way, here, let me also bring something up, and let me plug my Amazon special.

[900] Yes.

[901] I can nerd out about this for hours, but, like, there is something that occurred.

[902] Stand -up comedy used to be the great big stars of stand -up comedy were not for everyone, but for most of us.

[903] It was Chris Rock.

[904] No one had anything in common.

[905] They weren't a black kid from Brooklyn that went to a white high school, but they were like, he's great.

[906] Jerry Seinfeld, Jewish kid from Long Island.

[907] no one had that experience but now it's getting to like people are like i just want the comedian that's exactly like me right right right right and i think it's insane and the thing that i think is really scary is that as i've seen stand -up comedy become kind of much more of a college -educated kind of like thing there you know like when i started there was well there's a big big social movement aspect to it now yeah and there was something about i was the only college kid like i remember people going oh college you know you and your college humor right even though i'm from like you know a town of 300 you know but so the point is is that like if you look at comedians like there was the blue collar guys but like who's the the comedian that represents what the blue collar guys did yes they can't have access i mean it's not some grand plan it's just like well Like, Roseanne probably wouldn't be made today because Roseanne, forget about her.

[908] The most recent iteration, yeah, yeah, yeah.

[909] But like the whole notion of her being this working class hero, I think that people would be like, oh, wait a minute, that might be, that's, you know, what if they're communicating Christian values?

[910] You know, we don't want them to push that thing that's masking the patriarchy.

[911] do you know what I mean it's just I think there's an interesting time that maybe in a couple years we're going to look back and go you know there's nothing wrong with a different point of view I see both sides of the argument very clearly and I agree I think both sides have really good points one is you have this huge platform as an entertainer and you should be trying to make the world a better place yeah so that I totally agree with I myself have been guilty of it many times I have used my voice and then at the other time there is also this deep arrogance that I'm a comedian, but I should also be a political pundit.

[912] It's like, it's okay if you're just a comedian.

[913] There's some real talented people handling the political punditine.

[914] Yeah.

[915] You know what I'm saying?

[916] Go ahead and let Bill Maher do what Bill Maher does.

[917] Or Seth Myers, yeah.

[918] Yeah, yeah, there's a cadre of really smart political science type people commenting right now.

[919] So it's not as if if I don't use my voice, it's not out there.

[920] In fact, it's probably being more well articulated than I'm going to be able to do.

[921] But there is, so there is some arrogance that I have to be involved in every single thing.

[922] Why don't you just make people laugh?

[923] And then with your friends, you can tell them everything you think.

[924] So I'm on both sides of it.

[925] I say this a lot on here.

[926] Had Twitter been a thing before Philadelphia came out with Tom Hanks, and Tom Hanks, let's say, had been crazy vocal about some left -leaning stuff, and he would have lost half of the audience.

[927] And then so half the audience wouldn't have seen.

[928] Philadelphia and change their entire opinion about HIV and AIDS.

[929] So it's like I see the value of him having been inclusive to everyone so that everyone will go see a movie that would be normally just labeled a lefty movie.

[930] Yeah.

[931] I mean that also feels like prehistoric times, but yeah, I do think, I guess the point I'm getting to is that I'm a 90s comedian.

[932] You should have people in your audience that have different viewpoints.

[933] Do you know what I mean?

[934] Like, I used to, like, love the fact that there was the lesbian couple sitting next to the Mormon family.

[935] And now there, I feel like there's kind of like, oh, my God, there's right -winger guys that like your stand -up.

[936] I'm like, does that mean I'm doing something wrong?

[937] Right, yes.

[938] Do you what I'm saying?

[939] Yes, yes.

[940] It's just, I think there is.

[941] It just got elevated beyond all other.

[942] It's because everything's so extreme right now that people think the right -wing people are trying to take away other.

[943] people's rights.

[944] It's not just like different viewpoints where it used to be just like, oh, this person believes something different than me. Now it's like this person wants my gay friend to not get married or this person.

[945] It's become so personal and a manipulation of people's identities and rights.

[946] It's so fascinating.

[947] It's a fascinating time.

[948] By the way, so we're dealing with this Teflon president, who's the most Teflon president we've ever had.

[949] Because we know during Obama's presidency.

[950] He started off where he opposed gay marriage.

[951] And I just think it's interesting how some people don't get and believe me, I love Obama.

[952] So my point is not that like he was against it, but I'm saying he's allowed.

[953] Whereas like some people are like Joe Biden in 1963 said this and you're like, I just feel like it's fascinating.

[954] I'm not commenting.

[955] I'm not choosing a side.

[956] I'm just fascinated that some people get away with stuff.

[957] So, like, here's an example.

[958] I love Colbert.

[959] He had Spicer do a bit at when he hosted the Grammys or the Emmys.

[960] Oh, yes, yes, yes.

[961] I know about this.

[962] It was one of those things where I was like, oh, wow, that's going to backfire.

[963] Nothing happened.

[964] I don't know if it was because he had built up so much goodwill, but.

[965] It's like, he got away with it.

[966] Jimmy Fallon tossles Trump's hair.

[967] And people still want him killed.

[968] And I'm like, I just think that.

[969] And I did a whole episode of my TV show about how the zeitgeist or like there is this group mentality that just decides, we're going after Anne Hathaway for no reason at all.

[970] Yeah.

[971] Because you want an academy.

[972] Now, I don't know Anne Hathaway.

[973] Maybe some of it.

[974] And maybe I'm not up on whatever she did.

[975] Her transgressions.

[976] You know, maybe she got her haircut and people got upset about that.

[977] But it is just fascinating how some people can get away with stuff.

[978] And some people can't do anything right.

[979] Yeah.

[980] I feel like that's Gwyneth Paltrow.

[981] Like, no matter what she does, half the country is going to be like, that entitled, stuck up elitist bitch.

[982] It's like, hold on.

[983] She said she wants to eat organic green.

[984] Right.

[985] Hold on.

[986] There's got to be a worse thing someone could do than want to eat organic greens.

[987] It's fascinating because there is also what makes that?

[988] What makes someone, by the way, your wife is really famous, really famous who's been on like numerous television shows that are the top of discussion.

[989] She's escaped any blowback, right?

[990] Oh, yeah.

[991] Well, bottom line, I think your physicality.

[992] is almost everything.

[993] It's like somehow Kristen's beautiful and pretty and yet not triggering.

[994] And not threatening.

[995] Yes, it's like Gwyneth, like maybe if Kristen was 5 '10, she's a pretty white girl too.

[996] Yes, she's a pretty honky.

[997] Yeah.

[998] And, but if she was 5 '10, I don't know.

[999] Maybe it goes another way.

[1000] Oh, that's interesting.

[1001] Similar to the Colbert thing, though, with Kristen, because she is constantly putting out goodness.

[1002] Like, she's a charitable person.

[1003] She's built the goodwill.

[1004] She has.

[1005] I think that's a big element of it.

[1006] Like, with Colbert, no one thinks, like, wait, has he turned?

[1007] Like, everyone knows his stance.

[1008] Yeah, but, you know, like, there's both right and left.

[1009] There are these purity tests.

[1010] Oh, yeah, yeah.

[1011] That constantly happen.

[1012] But, but do you find, so here's what I find.

[1013] I read stuff on Twitter.

[1014] I read the stuff from the right on Twitter, and I read the stuff on the left on Twitter.

[1015] And then I convince myself that that's the best.

[1016] position of the left and right.

[1017] And then I get around my liberal friends, and we talk about these issues.

[1018] And no one thinks on the left the way we are being portrayed.

[1019] So I have to extend the same benevolence to the right and assume that the right's getting together.

[1020] And they're going, I don't think that our message reflects who we are.

[1021] I really do think both sides have been hijacked by the fringe 5%.

[1022] And it appears that that's everyone's message.

[1023] But I just, I'm never, I'm regularly reading something I find completely incomprehensible.

[1024] And then I'm, I'm never talking to somebody where I can't understand where they're coming from.

[1025] Well, I feel as though that applies to the entire state of Florida.

[1026] Like, I think that the entire, obviously, Florida is a wonderful place.

[1027] Sure, sure.

[1028] It's a wonderful place with different, vibrant cities.

[1029] But when they interview anyone, it's almost kind of like they do it on purpose.

[1030] They're like, we've got to find someone in Florida to deal with Trayvon Martin's death.

[1031] Yeah, find someone.

[1032] I've been recently bit by an alligator.

[1033] They don't find.

[1034] They don't go into like this intelligent, diverse fabric, which is Florida.

[1035] Never seen the club owner of Miami guy interviewed or professor from the University of Miami.

[1036] It's just some guy walking down a street that has no teeth.

[1037] Yeah.

[1038] Okay.

[1039] So I want to quickly blow through a little bit of your career, which is impressive.

[1040] And I wanted to ask you if you get triggered by one thing.

[1041] I just thought about it.

[1042] So, you know, as we said, you went from, you know, being an accountant of some type to being a copyrighter, advertiser, working on your comedy career, getting eventually on Letterman.

[1043] That really kind of starts opening the door.

[1044] I assume you start touring and more and more people are showing up.

[1045] And then you eventually get a special, Beyond the Pails number one, the most watched comedy special of the year, right?

[1046] Yeah, maybe.

[1047] It definitely had a big impact.

[1048] Okay.

[1049] And now you start touring to what are the size audiences after that?

[1050] Are you like in the three to five thousand range?

[1051] Not right away.

[1052] Okay.

[1053] But it gets up there.

[1054] Because here's what I would have thought.

[1055] I took myself back to when we met on that airplane.

[1056] And I bet that was probably 2012ish or something.

[1057] Yeah.

[1058] Somewhere in there.

[1059] And I think if I were you, again, I'm probably more insecure than you.

[1060] I'd be like, these actors, I sit next to these actors and maybe they have a billboard somewhere in sunset.

[1061] But I'm fucking playing 200 dates a year, and I'm crushing.

[1062] I'm making so much more money than these guys.

[1063] Does that ever cross your mind?

[1064] Well, I wouldn't say that that specifically, but what does cross my mind and what is, you know, like every now and then the industry magazines will do a thing on comedy.

[1065] And first of all, everyone who's written an article on comedy, there have been good.

[1066] articles but i think it was entertainment weekly did a thing or the hollywood reporter did a thing like comedy power brokers sure and obviously it's all subjective we work in a very perception driven business but what was so amazing they left out dave chappelle who literally could sell out like if you goes i'm going to do the staples center at two in the morning people would be like we'll see you there Dave.

[1067] 100 %.

[1068] They didn't have him.

[1069] They didn't have Jerry Seinfeld, who's comedians in cars is the most important show for comedy in the past eight years.

[1070] They didn't have Chris Rock, who's kind of like been an enormous star over decades, who can, you know, do stand up, direct a movie.

[1071] He's redoing the Saw movies.

[1072] He's going to be the lead in Fargo.

[1073] No mention of Chris Rock.

[1074] And then no mention of Joe Rock.

[1075] Rogan, who obviously is the biggest thing in podcast world.

[1076] Oh, yeah, yeah.

[1077] There's plenty of people that should be on it.

[1078] Yes, but it was, it sounds like what you're saying.

[1079] It was very politically weighted.

[1080] It was just also kind of, it just felt very lazy.

[1081] It's like, how can you not have these people on it?

[1082] Yeah.

[1083] It would be kind of like saying great television stars of the 70s and not saying Carol Burnett.

[1084] Right.

[1085] It's just absurd.

[1086] Yeah.

[1087] Well, you know, I got to say I did sketch comedy and improv my whole time in L .A. So I was pretty ignorant onto the stand -up world.

[1088] It was not until I did a movie with Dane Cook.

[1089] Yeah.

[1090] And then I thought, leading up to it, oh, I should watch his tourgasm show on HBO.

[1091] And then I was like, why is this guy on a private plane?

[1092] Like, none of my actor friends are flying to work on a private plane.

[1093] And then I happened to read an article that he had made like $29 million touring that year or something.

[1094] And that was, that's late in the game.

[1095] Like, I realized that in 2006.

[1096] So I was like, oh, okay, this is a different industry than I knew it was.

[1097] But I guess I just mean I can imagine some supporting actor, nominated Academy Award actor on a plane next to Larry the Cable Guy thinking, who's this loser?

[1098] And the guy's making $50 million.

[1099] There's something about that that I think is just kind of funny in our business.

[1100] Yeah, no, it is.

[1101] because here's what I was also going to say is that I don't begrudge that actor I you know it's like one of the things that like I've gotten some films over the past couple years but it's taken a long time because it used to be like I used to describe it on an airplane everyone in coach knew who I was but no one in first class so it's like all the producers sat in first class and had no idea who I was but then their kids got old enough to tell them who I am.

[1102] Mm -hmm.

[1103] Okay, so let me just go through a couple things.

[1104] So 2012, you do Mr. Universe.

[1105] Yeah.

[1106] And you get nominated for a Grammy.

[1107] Yeah.

[1108] And now, I mean, it makes sense in that people put out comedy albums.

[1109] It's just, I can't imagine.

[1110] Could you have ever imagined like, oh, yeah, I'm going to get a Grammy?

[1111] I'm going to, it's not what you associate with comedy.

[1112] You go there and it's usher and all these, like.

[1113] No, I went there.

[1114] Not last year, but the year before, they had all the comedians come.

[1115] Okay.

[1116] And we all knew Chappelle was going to win.

[1117] Yeah.

[1118] But it was...

[1119] By the way, he should.

[1120] Yeah, of course.

[1121] Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[1122] And so it's like, it is rather absurd because it is, you know, it is Usher and, you know, the Despacito guy.

[1123] And everyone...

[1124] Ferrell.

[1125] I'm kind of like, I talk about being lazy.

[1126] Yeah.

[1127] So it is kind of an odd mix, but it is the recording industry.

[1128] Street.

[1129] Then you did Obsessed, right?

[1130] Yes.

[1131] And that two was the most watched that year.

[1132] And then you did a tour and that tour and did it end at Madison Square Garden?

[1133] It might have.

[1134] It might have.

[1135] Yeah.

[1136] So that is a big tour, right?

[1137] It's huge.

[1138] How many dates did you do?

[1139] I mean, it varies.

[1140] I never stop.

[1141] I'll tape a special and then I'll sign, you know, like the special will come out later and during that time I'll be coming up with new material so i'm always when i'm doing a show the audience is always seeing an hour of new a material okay great because we just had this debate we were wondering like now that so um so aziz just had his special come out which we watched and loved yeah and then we were like well now he's at this huge special and he's in the zeitgeist right now and i bet he could sell out every place right now conventionally would he just go and do that routine that was on netflix it depends So a lot, some comedians, I would say most normal comedians, tape a special, they might do a couple more weeks, and then once the special airs, because there's an unspoken agreement with the audience that you're going to show up with new material.

[1142] Yeah.

[1143] And if it's on Netflix, everyone has seen it.

[1144] Yes.

[1145] But, you know, there's different reasons.

[1146] But let's just say, I saw Raw.

[1147] I loved it.

[1148] I saw all of Chris Rocks.

[1149] If he wanted to tour and do one of those, I'd be there.

[1150] I want to see him do the same.

[1151] thing again.

[1152] Yeah, you know, man. But why, you just watch it on TV at your house again.

[1153] But I also watch it like 10 times in a row.

[1154] I used to watch those specials over and over again.

[1155] You can kill with old material, but will they come back again?

[1156] A second time.

[1157] So some of the element of stand -up, I think, is the surprise of it.

[1158] Mm -hmm.

[1159] And so that's not to say that there aren't old bits that people want to hear that I might do in an encore.

[1160] but there is an unspoken agreement it's new stuff is your hot pockets routine your most famous routine probably probably and what's the premise that you thought it was a it's felt like an s &l commercial i thought it was an s &l sketch i you know i sincerely was like this is like the commercial was so bad i was like this got to be right this seems like a sketch uh -huh when hot pockets first came out it was that bad you know like sometimes hearing aid commercials you're like really you're using that take oh yeah you know so well the one that they made fun of eventually on john oliver a lot is the the the cathing commercial have you seen the cowboy cath here's i'm going to jump to the best part of it is there's a guy talking about he doesn't want to be in pain when he casts and he's using cat yes decathed but he's using it as a verb like when i cath which i don't even know if that's grammatically allowed but here's the best part the guy is clearly in his late 70s maybe even 80 right And the commercial starts with him going, I've been cowboying for 20 years.

[1161] And I don't like to be in pain when a cath.

[1162] That's how it starts.

[1163] And you just blow by that, right?

[1164] And about the 80th time we saw it, I said, wait, this guy started cowboying in his 60s?

[1165] Like, what do you mean he's been cowboying for 20 years?

[1166] He's 80.

[1167] That's so funny.

[1168] Like, did no one look at the actor and the copy and go, oh, wait, we've got to say he's been cowboying for 50 years.

[1169] Well, you know what?

[1170] It's so interesting.

[1171] Because I think of a different catheter commercial.

[1172] Oh, you've got your own favorite.

[1173] My catheter commercial is like the guy talking about, he goes, I had no idea there were so many catheters, and then he gets on a plane.

[1174] Oh.

[1175] Do you guys know that?

[1176] No, no. Yeah, that's the catheter commercial I know.

[1177] I don't know the cowboy cats.

[1178] And he's overwhelmed with the amount of choice in the cat market.

[1179] He goes, I had no idea.

[1180] And they sent him all these different types of catheters.

[1181] Oh.

[1182] Meanwhile, I didn't know what a catheter was.

[1183] until I had my appendix out and afterwards they're like let us know if it hurts your pee and I'm like why would it hurt?

[1184] And they're like because we inserted a catheter and I was like oh that's what it is uh -huh and it's just a long tube up your penis right?

[1185] It's and it goes into your bladder even yeah.

[1186] I mean what the yeah and apparently people are doing this on their own I'm not even sure what metal are doing it all the time enough people are doing it that there's many brands on the air There's many brands, and there's different cath commercials, one of which you don't know about and one of which I don't know about.

[1187] Yeah, that's amazing.

[1188] Wait, Hot Pockets.

[1189] Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[1190] Sorry, Hot Pockets.

[1191] So, yes, I do recall the commercial, and the jingle right was Hot Pockets.

[1192] Yes.

[1193] Right.

[1194] The story is like I did it as a couple jokes at Carolines, and I was like, no one's going to know what this is.

[1195] This is before Hot Pockets, the brand took off.

[1196] Right.

[1197] And I was like, no one in New York City, you know, like...

[1198] Yeah, you're eating a nice restaurant.

[1199] Or you can get a piece of pizza.

[1200] You don't need to microwave a hot time.

[1201] And no one's even in their fucking apartment in New York.

[1202] No. Everyone's living in a rat hole.

[1203] I got to get out of it.

[1204] I was like, so no one...

[1205] And then a friend of mine who is from Alabama, he's like, no, that's really funny.

[1206] And so then I started doing it on the road.

[1207] And then I don't know.

[1208] And then it just kept growing.

[1209] And then they keep introducing new ones.

[1210] Right.

[1211] Well, they won't stop.

[1212] By the way, I had a spell where I did consume a lot of those when you were single, right?

[1213] Well, no, I had a girlfriend, but we were both broke and we'd eat anything.

[1214] We drank a lot.

[1215] We didn't give a shit.

[1216] You know, I regularly think.

[1217] I used to eat like 12 with those 7 -Eleven hot dogs a week.

[1218] And I feel like a million dollars.

[1219] Now I eat almost perfect.

[1220] Now you walk by a 7 -Eleven, you feel bad.

[1221] Absolutely.

[1222] Now, I love the title, Dad Is That the Name?

[1223] Yeah, yeah.

[1224] So Jim wrote a book called Dad is Fat.

[1225] yes you've written a few books yeah two books two books what's the other one uh food a love story food a love story so in food is very common topic well clearly we just said hot pockets yeah yeah so you're really just kind of owning an addiction right i mean you're owning like like most a lot of my jokes were about when i was fucked up the stupid things i did i don't know what the numbers are but i got to imagine a lot of people wrestle with food issues yeah in general right yeah so Just tell me about your approach to going, you know what, I'm going to talk about this thing that I do think about a lot.

[1226] I mean, just to present a caveat, whatever that means, is that I would say probably 25 % of the seven specials I've done is food material.

[1227] Oh, okay.

[1228] But it is a consistent theme.

[1229] But like in the last three specials, not so much.

[1230] But it's a very interesting point that you bring up.

[1231] obviously it's a you know you can call obesity an epidemic in America it is something that most of us are consumed with yeah and it is universal so it you don't have to take a lot of time explaining I can talk about it I can have a lot of different points of view on it I don't have to explain it I think that was was really appealing about it well what's interesting is besides like vegetarians, vegans, generally people aren't attaching their identity to what they eat.

[1232] No. Whereas they are attaching their identity to their political position, their socioeconomic position.

[1233] So they're easily triggered.

[1234] Like you making fun of something could be inadvertently making fun of their identity.

[1235] But in this case, until recently, people didn't really go, I'm a pizza eater.

[1236] Yeah.

[1237] I'm a fried chicken eater.

[1238] Well, by the way, let me also say that I do believe, like it wouldn't, surprise me if you tell me that you're vegan or that you're vegan or that I was for one year of my life because I do think that is the future I do think it's undeniable like just as like the moral the morals are clear it's it's just very obvious that like I don't drink soda like when I was a kid I mean by the way all my kids all they want to do is drink so sure but when you become a conscious adult you're like this is stupid.

[1239] This is just all calories and sugar and it's making me fat, so I'm not going to drink it.

[1240] So I do think that, like, just as cigarettes, then soda, I think it's inevitably moving towards meat and even fried food.

[1241] Like, I think fried food is pretty insane.

[1242] It's pretty insane that we're literally eating things that are just deep fried.

[1243] And, you know, it might even get to the point where it's, like, corn.

[1244] Like, corn is not great for you.

[1245] And I'm from the Midwest, and I don't want the corn manufacturers to be mad.

[1246] corn lobby.

[1247] But I, you know, the thing that I identify with food is that it's universal.

[1248] And I think everyone struggles with it.

[1249] Oh, I do too.

[1250] You know, whether you're trying to like not deal with arthritis, because you're, you like a guy with the ailments of a grandmother, it's not like, it's everyone.

[1251] By the way, when I did dad as fat, I wasn't fat.

[1252] It was my son thought I was fat.

[1253] My son, who was six at the time, thought I was fat.

[1254] Now I'm fat.

[1255] When I did Food a Love Story, which is all about food, my obsession with food, I would write about different foods that I would try when on the road.

[1256] And then I started doing research.

[1257] And then I created this behavior of eating.

[1258] So it's almost kind of self -fulfilling.

[1259] Right, right.

[1260] Well, now listen, this is one of the risks I always am aware of when I talk to people.

[1261] And by the way, I said this right to his face, so I'm not being.

[1262] mean.

[1263] But Jay Leno, he has kind of a narrative, as we all have, but his narrative is like, I've never swam in my pool, I'll never take a vacation, who am I to think I should just be not working, right?

[1264] Which I get it.

[1265] It's a relatable narrative.

[1266] And then I even said, like, at what point do you become a victim of your own narrative?

[1267] Like, you should swim in your pool and you should go on vacation.

[1268] Like, I get the whole thing, but at the same time, no, go on vacation and swim in your pool.

[1269] So, well, you know, it is interesting because there are people that are like, Jim, if you lost 30 pounds, you'd lose your act.

[1270] Well, it's like it's a new act every year and a half.

[1271] So it's like, but I think that there is this.

[1272] You craft a persona, basically.

[1273] You craft a persona and you, well, it's point of view.

[1274] Uh -huh.

[1275] And the reality is, is people change their point of view.

[1276] I'm not saying that you're going to go back to drinking.

[1277] I'm saying that you're going to evolve.

[1278] Yeah.

[1279] You in 10 years might have different opinions and which goes back to my point that this arrogance that humans think that we have it all figured out when our views evolve.

[1280] Hopefully, yeah.

[1281] And it's not necessarily for better or worse.

[1282] It's just different.

[1283] But do you feel like whereas a normal person never has to contemplate whether or not their audience is going to join them on this evolution, you would be irresponsible not to wonder, is this new direction I'm going and going to alienate?

[1284] here's the thing what makes your friendship or your relationship with your wife so dynamic it's that you're challenging each other there's there's still some mystery there's some surprise there's and the thing her approval of me is not a foregone conclusion and i value that and by the way it's it's probably harder to acquire yeah and so the thing about stand -up the comedian with the audience is you have to check challenge them.

[1285] Like, I have a friend, Todd Glass, who occasionally will open for me, and he's like, you're always purifying your audience.

[1286] Like, you'll say, you'll have a joke in there that will say, hey, this is who I am.

[1287] I think that we live in this age of this exhibitionist, voyeuristic era, where you have to reveal something, which, by the way, is why podcasts are so popular, is because people are revealing things and people are funny.

[1288] You know, authenticity is so, cherished so but my point with the stand -up is that you have to challenge like the great friends you have they will challenge you and they'll say do you really believe that or you know that's bullshit dax you don't really believe that and you might go fuck you but then you're like you know what yeah maybe you're right and so like having you know on my seventh special or touring into a city like Atlantic City for the 13th year in a row with new material is that that audience knows that I'm going to be funny there's also an expectation that I'm going to surprise them a little bit maybe I'm not going to do magic tricks but I'm going to talk about something yeah I'm going to talk about something that maybe makes them uncomfortable but maybe opens up a little bit now it sounds like I'm overpromising I'm just saying like you have to evolve.

[1289] I think the best example of it is Stern.

[1290] It's like if you compare the show today to 25 years ago, you can't even compare the two.

[1291] And I think so many of the people argue with about Stern, they're arguing from when he was on terrestrial radio the last time they heard him 20 years ago.

[1292] We don't like that guy, right?

[1293] He threw bologna at girls' asses?

[1294] And I'm like, I can't defend that.

[1295] But it's been a long time that he threw bologna at someone's ass.

[1296] By the way, it's, and he's also somebody that has a Teflon ability.

[1297] Like, have you lined up his crimes?

[1298] Mm -hmm.

[1299] Oh, sure, sure, sure.

[1300] But I'll tell you what the whole thing is, is we're just really, I think, drawn to hypocrisy.

[1301] So he's never purported to be some pillar of morality.

[1302] We're not tearing the robe off of him.

[1303] You know what I'm saying?

[1304] It's like he's owned his shittiness in a way that there's no story there.

[1305] Well, I think that might be true, but I think that there's, an additional Teflon ability that things don't stick to him.

[1306] Sure.

[1307] Things don't stick to him.

[1308] And it's a very unique person.

[1309] I'm not complimenting it or criticizing it.

[1310] I'm just saying some people get away with murder.

[1311] Oh, sure.

[1312] And other people, they're like, look at that shirt they wore.

[1313] Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[1314] We're never going to forgive them.

[1315] Absolutely.

[1316] Okay, so you have a bunch of stuff coming out.

[1317] You've been a very busy beaver.

[1318] Yes.

[1319] You have a movie on August 2nd called Them That Follow.

[1320] I was right to guess that it's a little bit dark.

[1321] It's dark.

[1322] It's dark.

[1323] It's about a religious cult.

[1324] It's a Pentecostal snake healing church set in Appalachia.

[1325] I'm going to mispronounce it.

[1326] And I play the husband of Olivia Coleman.

[1327] Her career seems to be going all right.

[1328] And Walton Goggins is in it playing the minute.

[1329] and so it's a pretty it's it's an amazing cast there's so many amazing people and that comes out in la on august second national august ninth and then august 16th is amazon you have a comedy special it's their first comedy special first comedy special and it's called quality time quality time okay now now the big thing is american dreamer on september 20th yes it's the movie that i want directors and producers to see so that they can go, oh, wow, he can act.

[1330] Yes, yes, yes.

[1331] That is what I want to happen.

[1332] Who do you play in that?

[1333] I play a ride share driver in Norfolk, Virginia, who is kind of down on his luck and who ends up driving around a drug dealer.

[1334] You know, some people are ride share drivers.

[1335] It's kind of like a side hustle or whatever.

[1336] And then there's some ride share drivers that are crazy.

[1337] And so I'm more of the lad.

[1338] Okay.

[1339] I'm this guy, Cam.

[1340] And so it is, it's a, it's a larger look at entitlement, like white entitlement and stuff like that.

[1341] And so there's a lot of heavy, heavy stuff that happens in it.

[1342] That's one of the topics I'm most fascinated by.

[1343] Yeah, it's the white male entitlement.

[1344] It's really interesting.

[1345] Because playing this guy, you know, I mean, acting, particularly where you're playing this character that is so complex and you sit there and you go, I want people on board for the first 20 minutes and then I want to plant the seed it's in the script but you want to plant the seed oh wait a minute maybe this should I be rooting for this guy and then by the last act you're like I can't believe I ever like this guy you know the driving force of this character is he can't believe he has to deal with this stuff right which is just that encompasses entitlement yeah well if you grow up hearing your whole life you could be president and you know there's some kind of expectation yeah that when not met it's guys can't even understand it it's incomprehensible yeah i'm not supposed to be and by the way it's in you know it's weird also portraying someone like this you have to not have any doubts about his decision -making process so it's so fun to shoot it and then you get done and someone's like i can't believe your character did that.

[1346] In your mind, you're going, that's all he could do.

[1347] Yeah, yeah, I start defending.

[1348] We're so, like, I'm so crazy.

[1349] I'm like, what's wrong with that?

[1350] Yes, yes, yes.

[1351] But you end up defending this insane behavior.

[1352] Well, in order to play, this is well -worn, everyone knows.

[1353] But, yeah, to play a serial killer successfully, you can't be in judgment of the serial killer.

[1354] It'll be two -dimensional, yeah.

[1355] No serial killer thinks they're a bad guy.

[1356] They think they're a great guy Like when I read it I was like This is an amazing opportunity Because no one's gonna think That I'm gonna go there Right When it screened at the L .A. film festival To like see people kind of like Just kind of like physically turning Like I can't Why would you do that?

[1357] Right.

[1358] Do you know what I mean?

[1359] And then also horrendous things happening And then he just kind of goes on Because by the way that's what happens in life is what happens in life is horrible things happen and the world continues to spin well Jim we're going to see all the things we're going to see them that follow we're going to watch quality time on Amazon and then we're going to go to a movie theater and eat some popcorn on September 20th and watch American Dreamer we're going to support you you're a lovable kind person thank you I recommend anyone who's planning a trans American flight from L .A. to New York, you're not, you can't find a better seat partner than Jim Gaff again.

[1360] Oh, thanks.

[1361] And then we held hands during most of the flight.

[1362] During the turbulence.

[1363] Because it was scary.

[1364] It's very scary.

[1365] And then I feel safe.

[1366] I told Jim that I would be capable of landing the plane.

[1367] I'm sure you did.

[1368] He did not feel any safer than you do when I offer.

[1369] There you go.

[1370] Well, Jim, thanks for coming.

[1371] Thank you for having me. And here's where like the podcast music comes in.

[1372] Da -da -da -da -da -da -da -da.

[1373] That's our song, yeah.

[1374] This is our song, is da -da -da -da -da -da -da -da.

[1375] We played the bird dance.

[1376] We found out the bird song was in public domain, so we just grabbed it.

[1377] All right, I love you, Jim.

[1378] Thank you.

[1379] All right.

[1380] And now my favorite part of the show, the fact -check with my soulmate, Monica Padman.

[1381] Hi.

[1382] Hi.

[1383] Oh, it seems like you were going to do a song.

[1384] Yeah.

[1385] What happened just now?

[1386] Well, I don't know.

[1387] Is there a song you want to hear?

[1388] No, it just, you looked at your phone and looked like you were looking for a song and then you started and then there was no song.

[1389] And then it looked at you with, like, really surprised eyes.

[1390] Right.

[1391] I was just looking at my phone to make sure there was no family emergency before we launched in.

[1392] Got it.

[1393] And then I was thinking, I like so many songs.

[1394] What song would I even sing?

[1395] Too many songs.

[1396] Too many songs to pick.

[1397] I guess I should start by updating people with my H &R Block situation.

[1398] Oh, yes.

[1399] Let's do that.

[1400] Because more has happened.

[1401] Oh boy.

[1402] Oh, boy.

[1403] We are going to get sued.

[1404] I can feel it.

[1405] Let's do it.

[1406] How?

[1407] We can't get sued.

[1408] We can't.

[1409] Well, look at Oprah got sued for that beef thing, remember?

[1410] Okay, but Oprah didn't have an experience with the beef and then talk about it.

[1411] She just said like, oh.

[1412] Ew, beef.

[1413] Yeah, beef.

[1414] Well, I think it had something to do with mad cow, right?

[1415] Dr. Phil was involved in that case.

[1416] Yes.

[1417] Well, that's how they met.

[1418] That's how they met.

[1419] Yeah.

[1420] No, but I'm just talking about a personal experience that was horrible.

[1421] And I got to tell people because.

[1422] What are you laughing at?

[1423] Because I love you.

[1424] That's why I laugh with you.

[1425] No. Why are you laughing?

[1426] Why are you laughing?

[1427] Because you think it's silly for me to talk about this.

[1428] No, I think you...

[1429] And hear my grievance.

[1430] No, no. I think you're a determined little fucker and I find it amusing when you are determined.

[1431] Okay, so here's what happened.

[1432] So after last time, couldn't get them online.

[1433] They said, you need to go to a location.

[1434] have them printed out, which I'm like, great.

[1435] So I look on the website.

[1436] I see a location close by.

[1437] I drive there.

[1438] It's closed.

[1439] Like shut down.

[1440] Oh, out of biz.

[1441] Yeah.

[1442] Well, what I assume happens is that pops back up during tax season.

[1443] Oh, that would make sense.

[1444] Yeah, because I don't have to get a ton of business in May. In September, which it is now.

[1445] Okay.

[1446] Anyway, I went there.

[1447] I was like, okay, that's fine.

[1448] And then I look up another location, also pretty close by.

[1449] Drive there.

[1450] Also shut down.

[1451] At this point, I'm frustrated.

[1452] Of course you are.

[1453] Really quick.

[1454] Why don't you call?

[1455] After the first, like, fool me one, shame on you, H &R Block.

[1456] Full me twice, shame on.

[1457] It's still shame on H &R Block because it's on their website.

[1458] Okay, okay.

[1459] Okay.

[1460] So after those two, I call.

[1461] Okay.

[1462] The third one.

[1463] And I kind of tell her the whole story, but I'm like, vulnerable.

[1464] I was like, I need help.

[1465] That's a great way to do it.

[1466] I really need help.

[1467] This is extremely time sensitive.

[1468] and I'm scared.

[1469] Help me. And so she said, okay, so there's one open on Wilshire, not close.

[1470] Okay.

[1471] So I said, okay, I drive there.

[1472] Mm -hmm.

[1473] Go up, closed.

[1474] Uh -oh.

[1475] Not shut down, but closed.

[1476] Okay.

[1477] What time of day was this?

[1478] This was 10 .30 or 11.

[1479] A .m. I mean, that is prime time something should be open.

[1480] Correct.

[1481] Then I started crying.

[1482] Oh, okay.

[1483] And then I called again.

[1484] Uh -huh.

[1485] And I'm also like in weird part.

[1486] I feel so weird.

[1487] I'm like driving all over the city and lost.

[1488] You're kind of like Veronica Mars right now.

[1489] No. Veronica has control.

[1490] Oh, okay.

[1491] Yeah, you're right.

[1492] I was out of control.

[1493] But you're like going to all these places trying to get these documents.

[1494] That part of it's a little gumshoey.

[1495] That's true.

[1496] That's true.

[1497] And I needed something.

[1498] I couldn't get it.

[1499] And it was my stuff.

[1500] Yeah.

[1501] So that felt like.

[1502] They have my stuff and I can't get it.

[1503] Yep.

[1504] So anyway, so then I was crying.

[1505] Then I called again and then I said, okay, this all happened.

[1506] Then I just called.

[1507] She just sent me here.

[1508] Yeah.

[1509] And she was like, oh, that's not open until five.

[1510] And I was like, excuse me. Oh, my God.

[1511] They're open at 5 p .m. Yes.

[1512] Also, what?

[1513] What a weird shift.

[1514] Oh, my gosh.

[1515] I need this now.

[1516] And she's like, okay, there's this one.

[1517] And she gave some address.

[1518] And I was like, okay, are they open now?

[1519] And she was like, well, I don't know what time it is there, but they open at 12.

[1520] I was like, okay, it's 10 .30.

[1521] So they don't.

[1522] So she's like, okay, there's one here in Glendale, which by the way, Glendale is the one you went to first?

[1523] No, it should have been the one I went to first.

[1524] Yeah.

[1525] It's close to where we are.

[1526] That's right.

[1527] But then it's 30 minutes from where I am currently when I make this phone call.

[1528] So then I have to drive 30 minutes to Glendale.

[1529] I'm walking up and I'm just like, what's it going to, what's happening?

[1530] What's it going to be?

[1531] So then I open up the door.

[1532] There's two ladies in there.

[1533] The whole thing is kind of shut down, but there's two ladies in there.

[1534] And I was like, oh, I'm so happy to see a real person.

[1535] I have had all this experience.

[1536] She's like, oh, well, did you try to log on to your account?

[1537] And I was like, yes, that's the first thing I tried to do.

[1538] And she was like, oh, well, I'm supposed to charge you $25 for printing this because they want people to use the website.

[1539] And I was like, uh -huh.

[1540] So anyway, she prints the stuff out for me. Thank goodness.

[1541] I like her, although I was like, I'm here.

[1542] I'm going to read to you everything I need.

[1543] Yeah.

[1544] And I did.

[1545] And I was like, what about this part?

[1546] Do you have this?

[1547] And she's like, no, that's something for you to do on your own.

[1548] That is in the packet.

[1549] Uh -huh.

[1550] So she, so no, point is, I'm just saying, I mean, I don't know.

[1551] Really what's going on is I started to think about businesses.

[1552] And I was like, hmm, this is fascinating.

[1553] Like, once you get so huge.

[1554] This is what I was kind of saying the other day.

[1555] You remember what I was saying?

[1556] I feel bad for people who.

[1557] But I don't feel bad because I, I know, you feel bad for the creators of H &R block, because now their company has people.

[1558] They were probably, well, they had to have been very meticulous hard workers to have built a business that was successful.

[1559] I mean, they almost had to have been.

[1560] Of course.

[1561] I know.

[1562] I feel like once you get too big, this is like the same with like cable providers.

[1563] I won't say which one specifically I'm thinking of so we don't get sued.

[1564] But once you're talking to someone in Minnesota on the phone and then you hang up and you can never, ever, ever talk to that person again.

[1565] Right.

[1566] I hate that you can't reach the person.

[1567] No one's accountable.

[1568] And they have like one piece of information.

[1569] You have to retell the whole thing over.

[1570] It's like this starts to get so maddening.

[1571] And they're not incentivized to help you.

[1572] They're not.

[1573] That's tricky.

[1574] One person in Minnesota, you hang up callback thing in North Dakota.

[1575] With my prescription provider.

[1576] I know.

[1577] It's like I would talk to 12 different people.

[1578] They'd all tell me they were going to do something and they'd literally know one would do it.

[1579] I know.

[1580] It's so frustrating.

[1581] Can I drive there and.

[1582] manually do it myself.

[1583] I know.

[1584] But then you complained and you got it fixed.

[1585] Yeah.

[1586] That's right.

[1587] You're right.

[1588] Are our general expectations just too high?

[1589] Would life be more peaceful if we were like, oh, we should expect shittiness?

[1590] No. I'm sorry.

[1591] I'm sorry.

[1592] I'll never expect shittiness.

[1593] I think that's.

[1594] But then you're just like, you're really delighted when someone does something above and beyond.

[1595] I've said this on here before.

[1596] I'm very aware of my extreme privilege that because I'm on TV.

[1597] When I go to Starbucks, they actually are helpful.

[1598] Yes.

[1599] And I realize how nice this world would be if everyone was treated like they could potentially shit talk you and ruin your company.

[1600] Well, that is why it's so exceptional when you deal regularly with a company that is exemplary, like Costco.

[1601] Whatever model they have, every company should be copying.

[1602] Every experience is positive.

[1603] They really do the thing they're going to say.

[1604] It's remarkable.

[1605] It is.

[1606] It's remarkable.

[1607] It is.

[1608] But at the same time you go to McDonald's, and you know the people are making seven bucks, and I can't expect them to give a fuck.

[1609] I wouldn't give a fuck for seven bucks.

[1610] Yeah, I mean, look, I get it.

[1611] And I don't know.

[1612] But you're, you know, you're a harder worker than me across the board, I think.

[1613] If I have some ownership of something, I'm a very hard worker.

[1614] Like, if I'm directing or writing or anything that I feel invested in, then I'm, I think I have a crazy good work, I think.

[1615] But when I'm working for the man, I have a hard time giving a shit.

[1616] So I guess all I'm saying is I can relate.

[1617] Yeah, I guess.

[1618] I'm sorry.

[1619] Anyway, we're going to move on from them.

[1620] That's the end of that story because I'm never, ever, ever, ever going back there.

[1621] No, I'm not.

[1622] But you got all your stuff?

[1623] Yeah, I've been looking at a home.

[1624] Uh -huh.

[1625] And that's what all this is about.

[1626] It's so serendipitous because it's literally across the street from our new house, which is so exciting.

[1627] It's a very exciting prospect.

[1628] I'm so excited for you.

[1629] I know it's stressful for you, but from the.

[1630] outside who's not dealing with it.

[1631] I'm so excited for Wabiwob who's in us.

[1632] It's so exciting.

[1633] To see people I love getting the things they set out to get.

[1634] It's wonderful.

[1635] Thank you.

[1636] Yeah.

[1637] All right.

[1638] Forget Jim.

[1639] Sorry, Jim.

[1640] There really isn't that much about Jim.

[1641] I hope Jim doesn't isn't sponsored by H &R Block.

[1642] Can you imagine what if he'd be for him?

[1643] He's a spokesperson.

[1644] What if he could be the voiceover?

[1645] Jimmy.

[1646] Jimmy Jammer.

[1647] He was fun.

[1648] Yeah, he's a sweetheart.

[1649] Yeah.

[1650] And you met him on an airplane.

[1651] I met him on an airplane.

[1652] And you enjoyed him.

[1653] And it was one of those things.

[1654] It's always this weird reindeer dance.

[1655] You're trying to figure out if you know one another.

[1656] And maybe it's all in my head.

[1657] We've gone through this.

[1658] Yeah.

[1659] But it's always in my head.

[1660] I'm like, I know them.

[1661] I'll start.

[1662] That's nice.

[1663] Yeah.

[1664] I'll generally, yeah.

[1665] Yeah.

[1666] I was on the flight home from New York on Monday night.

[1667] So stressful.

[1668] So I told you I left my first.

[1669] phone.

[1670] Oh, do you want to tell everyone what happened?

[1671] Yes.

[1672] I would say one of the cornerstones of my self -esteem is that I don't ever lose stuff.

[1673] You've heard me brag about it many times.

[1674] You do take pride in that.

[1675] And I'm hard on people who regularly lose stuff.

[1676] I'm like, I'm always like, here's the thing.

[1677] You pick four spots in the house you set your phone on.

[1678] That's it.

[1679] You're only allowed to put it down four places and then you'll never lose it.

[1680] Blah, blah, blah, blah.

[1681] Well, I fucking left it in the car.

[1682] And I got through security.

[1683] And I went to on, I always put, I take my phone on my pocket.

[1684] I put it in my backpack to put it through the belt went to do that where the fuck's my phone and i was tsa pre so it took me one second to go through security i leave and i'm literally it's like my brain doesn't work i'm like what do i do i don't know any phone numbers what was the driver holy shit how do i can't call anyone i'm going to ask a stranger for their phone what what numbers will even put into the phone i don't know anyone's number and all of a sudden i was like my i packs i have my i packs in my backpack yes take my ipacks out start emailing frantically to um adam your publicist who knew the driver information Yeah.

[1685] He's not responding.

[1686] I tried to FaceTime him.

[1687] He doesn't even know I have an iPax with this weird phone number.

[1688] So I'm thinking, oh, my God, he's probably thinks some weirdos got his number trying not FaceTime him.

[1689] I do this over and over and over again.

[1690] I burn up about 10 minutes.

[1691] And I'm panicking because I know the driver is moving away from me, like one of these thought experiments.

[1692] I've left a train station going eastbound.

[1693] He's left westbound.

[1694] And so I finally think, oh, my God.

[1695] And I think, okay, I'm going to email Dobbin, my agent's assistant.

[1696] Okay.

[1697] Dobbin doesn't know anything about this trip to New York.

[1698] Not involved at all in my publicity.

[1699] Yeah.

[1700] But just as a Hail Mary pass, email Dobbin, I'm so fucked.

[1701] I just lost my phone, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah.

[1702] I have no info to give Dobbin.

[1703] Some of Dobbin works a miracle, gets on the phone with the driver.

[1704] The driver has now, it's been 18 minutes.

[1705] Let me back up.

[1706] I did Seth Myers, and we were already racing for me to get to my flight.

[1707] So I was already stressed getting to JFK.

[1708] So now the driver's gone, 18 minutes, the wrong direction, gets the driver to turn around.

[1709] Now, what a fucking inconvenience.

[1710] He thought he was off work.

[1711] He has a five -year -old kid.

[1712] He had turned around.

[1713] Anyways, Dobbin says, the driver will be there in 18 minutes.

[1714] So now I'm just staring at my watch.

[1715] Okay.

[1716] So 18 minutes puts me at like, I'll have virtually eight minutes before the plane door shuts.

[1717] And at a certain point, I'm like, I might just have to leave my phone in New York because I have to work in the morning.

[1718] and bless this mess.

[1719] So anyways, driver pulls up.

[1720] And in my calculations, I'm like, all right, I'll get back through security in five minutes, TSA pre.

[1721] I get my phone.

[1722] I go back into the airport.

[1723] They've shut down TSA pre in the 30 minutes that I've been out there on the curb.

[1724] I get in the normal line.

[1725] There's 25 people.

[1726] I'm just panicking.

[1727] I hate this.

[1728] Oh, buddy.

[1729] It's so awful.

[1730] Yeah.

[1731] Anywho, I make it clearly.

[1732] Did you tell anyone like, ah?

[1733] I crossed my mind.

[1734] I so wanted to do it.

[1735] And then, again, there's way more upsides of being on TV.

[1736] But this was the one where I was like, they're all going to just think, because I'm on TV, I'm allowed to cut the line.

[1737] But who cares at that point?

[1738] You're probably right, but I got self -conscious that people will think I'm entitled.

[1739] So anyways, I make it through.

[1740] I get on the plane.

[1741] My heart rate was probably 175.

[1742] I sit down.

[1743] Long, long way to tell you that the guy from Dawson's Creek was on the airplane.

[1744] James Vanderby.

[1745] Not the beach.

[1746] Joshua Jackson was on.

[1747] And we locked eyes once or twice.

[1748] And I tried to send a very clear message like, hey, man, I know you're Joshua Jackson.

[1749] And that was a long way to tell you.

[1750] I saw another celebrity on an airplane.

[1751] Oh, but you guys didn't really chat.

[1752] We didn't chat.

[1753] I was not in a chatting move.

[1754] What if people are like, cool for the complaint session.

[1755] I thought I was getting a fact check.

[1756] The fact check is for us to chat.

[1757] Yeah, I don't know how many people can listen to.

[1758] us to catch up because I don't see you now that I'm shooting so much.

[1759] I know.

[1760] I miss you.

[1761] I miss you.

[1762] And I really look forward to these fact check so we can check in on what's going on.

[1763] Me too.

[1764] Maybe the fact check is more about checking in.

[1765] Oh.

[1766] Yeah.

[1767] It's more of a check in.

[1768] Yeah.

[1769] I like that.

[1770] Yeah.

[1771] I like that.

[1772] Okay.

[1773] So Jim, so he said growing up, Michigan was a star of the Midwest.

[1774] And he said Detroit was a fifth largest city in the country now lost 70 % of its population.

[1775] So, um, Detroit has been going through a considerable reduction in population.

[1776] The city has lost over 60 % of its population since 1950.

[1777] Mm -hmm.

[1778] Okay, so we talked about atheism versus being agnostic.

[1779] Mm -hmm.

[1780] Because I feel like you gave a definition of agnostic that was still kind of spiritual.

[1781] Like, you don't think you're agnostic because you think there's...

[1782] I don't.

[1783] I think people that are agnostic think there is something they don't know what.

[1784] No. Okay.

[1785] So I already knew this because of Eric coming to my religion teacher who I loved.

[1786] Who you're hot for.

[1787] Agnostic.

[1788] I'll just read the definition.

[1789] Please.

[1790] A person who believes that nothing is known or can be known of the existence or nature of God or of anything beyond material phenomena.

[1791] A person who claims neither faith nor disbelief in God.

[1792] So it's just saying I do not know.

[1793] Right.

[1794] But also they don't claim disbelief.

[1795] Exactly.

[1796] Yeah.

[1797] But you.

[1798] I have disbelief.

[1799] I do.

[1800] But disbelief meaning they're saying I don't, I don't believe in God and I don't not believe in God.

[1801] And I say I do not believe in God.

[1802] I definitively say that.

[1803] And I also say I'd be thrilled to find out I'm wrong.

[1804] Right.

[1805] Yeah, I think that'd be the greatest.

[1806] There would be the best I told you so would be coming from God's mouth.

[1807] Right.

[1808] Yeah.

[1809] Okay, so you're saying you are definitive on that.

[1810] Yeah, I don't think there's a supreme until.

[1811] to the universe, which does not exclude me from spirituality or at least my definition of spirituality.

[1812] Because I think there's something, there's some human thing.

[1813] Yeah.

[1814] That is shareable and I think there's transcendent experiences and I've had them.

[1815] I think I'm more just agnostic.

[1816] Yeah.

[1817] And really only because on principle kind of, I feel like...

[1818] It's arrogant to say there is.

[1819] Yeah, it is.

[1820] Because to me it's arrogant to say there is.

[1821] And then it's to me equal.

[1822] To me, it's the same.

[1823] You're making a definitive declaration on whether or not something we just don't know.

[1824] Well, not to split hairs, but I also am not declaring there isn't one.

[1825] I don't believe there's one, but I'm not declaring there isn't one.

[1826] You know what I'm saying?

[1827] I'm not going around going.

[1828] There isn't to God.

[1829] I don't tell anyone there isn't.

[1830] I don't think there's a god and this would be my analogy is there an invisible elephant in this room I don't believe there is one okay it's unknowable really if there's an invisible elephant in this room yeah I feel like for me it's in the high 90s that the evidence was just there's not an invisible elephant in this room I would say the same I would say most likely not but I don't know for sure Mm -hmm.

[1831] Mm -hmm.

[1832] Mm. I don't know for sure.

[1833] I just am I'm more weighted into the fact that I don't think there is.

[1834] Right.

[1835] Right.

[1836] It might be a little mental trick I play though.

[1837] Yeah.

[1838] Yeah.

[1839] Like I might, I might not want to be driven nuts by the trying to figure it out.

[1840] So I'm just like, fuck it.

[1841] I'm planting a flag here.

[1842] Yeah.

[1843] That there isn't and then I'm done thinking about it.

[1844] That's probably normal.

[1845] Because I think a lot of agnostic people are also searchers.

[1846] Like they haven't found anything they believe in, but they're still searching.

[1847] And I'm not searching.

[1848] know if that's true what would we call those people like they they think there's something but they don't know what it is Jewish I don't know I I also there's like these definitions are so there's like three options and that's not the case yeah that's the other thing is like yeah we want there to be something definitive yeah some human being wrote that sentence yeah of course yeah decided that these are the buckets yeah but I think you can be like, I don't know, and that's fine.

[1849] Like, that's kind of how I feel.

[1850] I mean, I definitely, I definitely lean more towards, I don't think so.

[1851] But I also feel very strongly that there's something going on.

[1852] Uh -huh.

[1853] I've had too many, just too many experiences in life where things have happened that I've thought about, yes, too many.

[1854] Yeah, I've had those two.

[1855] But I just go like, yeah, I don't know why or what cause that.

[1856] And I know it'll be a waste of time to try to figure it out.

[1857] Yeah, I feel that way too.

[1858] Yeah.

[1859] But I don't think that's, I don't know that that's fully not believing, though.

[1860] And, you know, and also, can I tell you another thing I don't believe in?

[1861] Although I do believe it's the best current theory.

[1862] What?

[1863] Is the Big Bang.

[1864] Like, I understand it.

[1865] I understand the mechanics behind why that's a theory.

[1866] And that it all holds that the universe is expanding so clearly it started from somewhere.

[1867] Yet I don't believe in the Big Bang.

[1868] Because my mind can't compute what the void was before the big bang.

[1869] I'm like, well, that's the same as God to me. I agree.

[1870] Yeah.

[1871] And I also, again, I don't really care all that much.

[1872] I don't either.

[1873] I don't really give a shit.

[1874] There's no solution people can pitch to me that actually alleviates my discomfort in thinking about it.

[1875] Yeah.

[1876] Meaning if you say there's a God, I'm just as curious as where God came from.

[1877] I'm so limited with my thought process being a paradigm where everything is created and then dies.

[1878] Yeah.

[1879] That it's not even, it doesn't calm me to think there is a God forever because where the fuck did that thing come from?

[1880] Sure.

[1881] Yeah.

[1882] It's a bit of a cycle or wormhole.

[1883] Speaking of cycles.

[1884] Black hole.

[1885] You're not on yours.

[1886] I'm not on my cycle.

[1887] I know, I know.

[1888] You seem shocked.

[1889] I always think you and mother have the same cycle, but you don't.

[1890] We don't.

[1891] Anyway.

[1892] So something I definitely should have said in the moment.

[1893] moment.

[1894] And I didn't.

[1895] And I didn't because I mostly agreed with his point.

[1896] So I didn't really want to derail the conversation into this element of it.

[1897] He said that there's shaming about like different parts of the country and that there's elitism on the coast.

[1898] So he said there's a shaming of parts of the country.

[1899] People say, oh, all the people from the south are racist.

[1900] And then he's like, really, have you gone 10 minutes outside of New York City?

[1901] Because it's not that different.

[1902] And by the way, in the South, I don't run into constant racism.

[1903] So I agree, ultimately, but also, come on.

[1904] Of course you don't run into constant racism.

[1905] Where would you run into it?

[1906] Well, I will say this, not to defend that, but I will say, I have been in areas.

[1907] I went and saw Nate on a movie on the bayou.

[1908] And this dude who drove around, he had helped locate.

[1909] location scout, whatever.

[1910] He's kind of like a local businessman and fixer kind of guy.

[1911] Yeah.

[1912] And I spent the afternoon with him.

[1913] He showed me some alligators and stuff.

[1914] Mm -hmm.

[1915] And the comfort by which he started dropping the N -bomb told me it was a little, it was a little bit of a clue that there's something systemic because he's not even nervous that I might have an issue with that.

[1916] Right.

[1917] That's true.

[1918] It's kind of like the real bit of racism in the Rodney King beating wasn't the four officers striking him.

[1919] It was the 12 officers that lied in their report.

[1920] That just tells you that the whole system is fucked.

[1921] Yes.

[1922] So in that way, I can understand how you can, you can as a fellow white person.

[1923] Of course.

[1924] They'll kind of let you in on their racism.

[1925] You can observe it for sure.

[1926] Yes.

[1927] And like there's such a big difference.

[1928] you're not going to feel you're not going to be the person that when you walk into a restaurant you can feel being treated a certain way or looked at a certain way so anyway I just wanted to make that clear in case anyone heard it and was like why didn't you say anything and that's why I didn't because I liked the general gist of what he was saying oh okay so you talk about the cath the cowboy catheter catheter cowboy I've been cowboying for 20 years yep we talk about that And then he was like, no, I don't know that, but I know another catheter commercial, remember?

[1929] Yes, I do.

[1930] Okay, found it.

[1931] Is it great?

[1932] Yeah.

[1933] It's called the Liberator Catherter Commercial.

[1934] Which nothing could be less liberating than having a fucking calf.

[1935] It's like called the Liberator handcuffs.

[1936] Liberator brand handcuffs.

[1937] Do you use catheters?

[1938] Are you using the catheter that's really best for you?

[1939] I don't know.

[1940] Oh, yeah.

[1941] For years.

[1942] I'd been using one kind of catheter, and I never knew that there were other really great catheters available until Liberator sent me samples to try.

[1943] If I had not tried the samples from Liberator, I might never have found the perfect catheter for me. Liberator Medical sent me a catheter that was easier for me to use right out of the package.

[1944] I even used them in my airplane and carry four or five and be gone to the whole day.

[1945] And now that I've felt, oh, he's doing aeroback for me, acrobatic.

[1946] Oh, his plane's turning sideways.

[1947] There are so many innovative catheters to upgrade to.

[1948] Call Liberator Medical for your free personalized sample pack.

[1949] Get the best catheter for you.

[1950] And I just want to apologize to anyone who has to use a catheter.

[1951] I bet it's a real pain in the ass.

[1952] We're not laughing at you, but I am laughing at the production value of most catheter commercials.

[1953] Honestly, guys.

[1954] Get it together.

[1955] It doesn't make you want to use the product all that much.

[1956] No, it doesn't.

[1957] I mean, he does do some really kick -ass acrobatic things in an airplane afterwards, but in general, you're not aspiring to be that gentleman.

[1958] No. You know, my dad had a catheter for a little bit.

[1959] Oh, he did?

[1960] He had like some issue, prostate.

[1961] Oh, he had a prostate thing.

[1962] I think it was enlarged or something.

[1963] No, he almost died.

[1964] Whoa, whoa.

[1965] They were like in Florida.

[1966] They were driving home, but it's like eight hours and he wasn't peeing.

[1967] He couldn't pee.

[1968] He wasn't peeing for like days.

[1969] Like father like daughter.

[1970] I know.

[1971] But he recognized it was a problem.

[1972] And then they went to the hospital and it was like they were.

[1973] He was folded the max.

[1974] Yeah.

[1975] They were like, this is really dangerous.

[1976] Oh my goodness.

[1977] Maybe your prostate is enlarged.

[1978] Maybe.

[1979] You need a digital rectal exam to see if it's enlarged.

[1980] I just don't drink enough water.

[1981] I wish you did.

[1982] Me too.

[1983] Although we had a guest on recently that told me that she just learned that drinking water is bad for you.

[1984] Oh, come on now.

[1985] Come on.

[1986] I don't want to laugh because she probably knows.

[1987] I'm sure we'll have an expert on soon enough that does tell us that.

[1988] I know.

[1989] Maybe water's bad for you.

[1990] Maybe not.

[1991] Water don't sue us.

[1992] That's all the facts.

[1993] Yeah.

[1994] Will you come over tonight?

[1995] Sure.

[1996] Yeah.

[1997] Yeah.

[1998] I have plans.

[1999] Okay.

[2000] Think about how easy it will be if I live across the street.

[2001] Oh, my God.

[2002] We've got to get Elon Musk to build us a tunnel.

[2003] Yeah.

[2004] He's got that boring company.

[2005] He could probably bang it out in a weekend.

[2006] I can't wait.

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