eff won: Christian Horner Debrief

[0] Welcome, welcome, welcome to F1 with DRS.

[1] This is a bonus episode on the armchair expert feed.

[2] Because we got an interview with an incredible team principal, the maybe second most winningness team principle in Formula One, Christian Horner.

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[8] There is video for this interview and for this intro.

[9] Please enjoy.

[10] Well, you know it is on the race weekend.

[11] First of all, everyone's busy, understandably, and everyone's got something to do.

[12] It's not like you're trying to stop and chat with a stranger for 25 minutes.

[13] It's just not ideal.

[14] Yeah.

[15] So this is fantastic.

[16] I'm so grateful that you came.

[17] So we were just talking about Disney.

[18] language is important.

[19] So did you have a favorite ride?

[20] I enjoyed the, we went on the race, you know, that is in cars.

[21] Yes, yes, yes, yes.

[22] Oh, my God, cars is incredible.

[23] Yeah, the world.

[24] The world and everything.

[25] And then suddenly you went up in a race and my kids got super excited about that.

[26] So I got excited about it.

[27] Did you win or lose?

[28] Unfortunately, we finished second.

[29] Yeah.

[30] Well, there's only two cars.

[31] So it's a euphemism to say.

[32] Yeah, exactly.

[33] Yeah, I would say that one's.

[34] top ride for me. All Star Wars stuff was cool.

[35] That's incredible when you walk in and they have the actual, like you feel like you're on the deck.

[36] Exactly.

[37] Yeah, exactly.

[38] You know, it's old fashion, but I really love it is Indiana Jones.

[39] Did you do that one?

[40] We did that.

[41] That was cool.

[42] And Pirates of the Caribbean they loved.

[43] You got to do that.

[44] Jethra, who lives in England.

[45] He's never been on Pirates of the Caribbean.

[46] You don't understand.

[47] This is the most important ride.

[48] You haven't lived unless you've been on.

[49] If I were a billionaire, I'd build one.

[50] You would too.

[51] Yeah, absolutely.

[52] Oh, wonderful.

[53] This is great, because I tell people that and they think I'm nuts.

[54] But I think Michael Jackson built one.

[55] Have you ever heard this room?

[56] Oh, really?

[57] No, I didn't hear that.

[58] I've heard at Neverland, that ranch, he had Pirates of the Caribbean.

[59] But the person I was talking to didn't realize that the movie series had been based on the ride.

[60] Yes.

[61] Yes, I went to Florida in 1983.

[62] Okay.

[63] I went on Pirates of the Caribbean there in Disney World.

[64] Yeah, yeah.

[65] You were what, not 10?

[66] 9.

[67] I was about 10, yeah.

[68] And so same age of my daughter now.

[69] Oh, yeah.

[70] And so I was trying to explain that this was all pre.

[71] the film this was pre the movie right and there wasn't anything cool so to see just like the people the women chasing the pirates with the broom in a circle was like a big technological breakdown so yeah how did your kids take it because there's so many great offerings now like they're they leave the star wars thing that's insane it's like driving somehow AI is driving the fucking yeah my my six -year -old flew the millennia and falcon that was his life is complete yeah and then you got to put them in a little boat and float by some some bounty some treasure where we came face -to -face with like a squad of stormtroopers, that was, it was like, Daddy, can we, can we go now?

[72] Oh, good, he got scared.

[73] He got probably scared.

[74] When Kylo Ren came in as well, it was like, oh, my God.

[75] We're in trouble.

[76] Yeah, exactly.

[77] And he's six?

[78] He's six.

[79] He's a January birthday?

[80] He's a January birthday.

[81] What day?

[82] 21st.

[83] Damn it.

[84] I thought we'd be soulmates.

[85] When are you?

[86] I'm the second.

[87] Argue it's the worst birthday in the world because it's the day after New Year's, everyone's made resolutions.

[88] No one wants to drink at your party or eat.

[89] you know and do they always combine this is Christmas and birthday present exactly it's a fucking racket your aunts and uncles tell you like oh we got you something even bigger but it's the same thing your brother i'm in november you see i'm mid -november so i get it the other side yes although this year it's in Vegas for the race you'll be there on your birthday i'm going to be there i'm going to be 50 in Vegas oh my god are you planning something spectacular or your wife the the race has been put on in honor of my birthday oh my god that makes so much sense i think a lot of People are scratching their head of how this came together.

[90] Yeah, it's to celebrate my 50th.

[91] That makes so much sense.

[92] So you're from, the town you're from I've never heard of, I'm embarrassed to say.

[93] Uh -huh.

[94] Which one did you look at?

[95] Lemington Spa.

[96] Leamington Spa.

[97] How far out of London is that?

[98] That's about an hour and a half north.

[99] So it's about as central UK as you can get.

[100] Think Shakespeare.

[101] That's the next town.

[102] Stratford.

[103] Okay, so you and I share this in common, which is I grew up in Detroit.

[104] My whole family's automotive industry.

[105] Yeah.

[106] My mother worked at General Motors at the Proving Grounds.

[107] okay.

[108] Dad sold cars.

[109] Yeah.

[110] And your granddad worked at Standard.

[111] Yeah.

[112] Yeah, yeah.

[113] So he was in the motor industry.

[114] He started as an apprentice.

[115] No shit.

[116] In what year?

[117] Like 50s or?

[118] No, my granddad was, that would have been pre -war.

[119] Then my father, he did his apprenticeship at Standard.

[120] And he was in the automotive industry, but as a, it's like an agent working between suppliers and the industry.

[121] And we used to go to Detroit because he had a couple of clients out there.

[122] Oh, no kidding.

[123] So we ended up going there to...

[124] Not as fun as your trip to Disneyland.

[125] Not as fun, but we went up to the lakes.

[126] I went to Mackinac Island.

[127] I went to Mackinac Island.

[128] You're at a bicycle around?

[129] Yeah.

[130] It's a good memory.

[131] So we used to end up going up there as kids.

[132] The two claims of fame for Mackin Island is it had the world's largest porch in the world at the Maconaw Hotel.

[133] And then, yeah, you can ride a bike around it.

[134] Yeah.

[135] And I remember driving, I hadn't got a lot.

[136] In the UK, you can't get a license until you're 17.

[137] And I ended up driving a car in Detroit.

[138] And I ended up driving a car in Detroit.

[139] And at 16 years of age.

[140] yeah, I was.

[141] Do you remember what car it was?

[142] It was a Lincoln town car.

[143] Oh, baby.

[144] It was like a boat.

[145] In what year?

[146] About 1990, yeah.

[147] That's the apex year.

[148] Other than my 67 Lincoln Continental, you fast forward, that's the town car you can drive.

[149] Okay, yeah, yeah.

[150] That was like a boat to be, you know, it was unbelievable.

[151] Yeah, five -liter V -8, real -wheel drive.

[152] Yeah.

[153] So what age did you start in Cardi?

[154] Well, I fell in love with speed because I grew up watching, you know, things like the full guy in the 18.

[155] Let's talk about the fall guy for one second.

[156] When's the last time you've watched videos on YouTube of the fall guy?

[157] Oh, Craig, it must be years and years.

[158] I really encourage you to because, as you probably saw when you walked in, I'm super into off road racing.

[159] And you know, the average suspension travel on like that raptor out there.

[160] It's like 18, 20 inches.

[161] Yeah.

[162] That fucking GMC, he was driving in like three inches of travel.

[163] And he launched that.

[164] He was flying.

[165] Oh, my God.

[166] He would jump like 12 feet in the air.

[167] Absolutely.

[168] You must go and watch it because what you see is the, when it.

[169] lands, it just bounces for a long, long time.

[170] They must have gone through quite a few trucks.

[171] They, I don't think any of the trucks made it through any of the jumps, much like the General League.

[172] Okay, so we were raised on the same shit.

[173] So I grew up watching all that stuff, and I was just obsessed with speed and I wanted a race and cannibal runs.

[174] And cannibal, oh my God, yeah, the cannibal run, all that stuff.

[175] Oh, so, so yeah, I wanted, I was always fascinated by speed.

[176] And it was actually my mom that we found this go car, this motorized go car in the back the uh a newspaper and for my 11th birthday i twisted her arm twisted her arm and we bought this old thing out the back of the newspaper and it was to drive originally around the garden around the yard that we had so she bought it for me and it was it was super cheap and it was really old um but it was too low it was an old racing go car it was too low to go around the garden okay and so my dad knew of a go cart track that was i know about 10 miles from where we lived and suddenly we took it up there and Suddenly, I discovered this whole world that you could race these things.

[177] Right.

[178] But let's also say at 11, you're already five years behind.

[179] At that stage, no. No. The earliest you could race was 12 at that point.

[180] Oh, okay.

[181] So, yeah.

[182] I guess now all our drivers are they...

[183] Now it's basically straight out of the womb you're in a, you're able to drive a car.

[184] Yeah, I have a 10 -year -old daughter and I told her like, hey, you're kind of four years behind.

[185] Yeah, you're behind the curve now.

[186] Yeah, you're behind the curve now.

[187] We've got to go hard now if we're going to do this.

[188] So I started racing when I was 12 years of.

[189] And it was just all I wanted to do.

[190] I had an engine in my bedroom, you know?

[191] Yeah, absolutely.

[192] Were they two -stroke 125s at that point?

[193] No, they were two -stroke 100 CC.

[194] Okay, right, right, right.

[195] And shifter or?

[196] No, centrifugal clutch and just accelerator and brake.

[197] So, and it was fantastic.

[198] Yes.

[199] And did you immediately have an aptitude or did you feel like you had to catch up to the...

[200] No, I got into it pretty quickly and I was just like, it was just, Suddenly my life was just obsessed with with carting.

[201] And if I wasn't in a car, I was drawing it or cleaning it or, you know, the school at that point.

[202] Were you small as a kid?

[203] Yeah, I was pretty small.

[204] So I imagine you looked small out there racing to your parents.

[205] And I read this thing that racing drivers were no higher than five for eight.

[206] Yes.

[207] And so I had a chart on the wall and I was willing myself to be short.

[208] Oh, no kidding.

[209] Because my brother was quite tall and I was thinking, I don't want to grow up like him.

[210] So I didn't want my feet to grow.

[211] I didn't, you know, I became obsessed about the age of 13 of not wanting to grow too quickly.

[212] Right, right.

[213] So, but it was a lot of fun.

[214] And as a family, you know, weekends were taken up.

[215] We'd go into a racetrack.

[216] We'd pack the car up, the cart in the back and so on.

[217] And my dad was the mechanic.

[218] He was.

[219] He was the mechanic initially until I was in the lead of a race.

[220] And he hadn't done the engine clamps up properly.

[221] Okay.

[222] And the engine fell off when I was in the lead.

[223] So after that point, I'd done well enough.

[224] a couple of teams said, why doesn't he come and drive for us?

[225] Okay, so that's when you get sponsored.

[226] Yeah.

[227] As a driver.

[228] This is 91.

[229] This is before 89 was the first year.

[230] Oh, it is.

[231] Sponsored, yeah.

[232] Yeah, because I did have a question if dad was pushing you into it or supportive or tolerant.

[233] Like, which of those three best is.

[234] I would say between tolerant and supportive.

[235] Okay.

[236] So it's like, where's this going?

[237] But at the same time, you know, as parents, they always, they always encourage us, you know, follow your dreams.

[238] Go for what, go for what you want.

[239] And in racing, I had something that, you know, suddenly I had a connection with him that he was, you know, he was interested.

[240] He must have loved it as well, right?

[241] Yeah, yeah.

[242] And so I raced in 1989 in the junior carting world championship.

[243] And I raced against Max Verstappen's mom.

[244] No. Yeah.

[245] No way.

[246] Absolutely.

[247] She was a champion, right?

[248] She was top 10 in the world at that point.

[249] She was fantastic.

[250] That's so cool.

[251] And then drivers like Jan Magnuson, Kevin Magnuson's father and Physic Keller and Yon.

[252] Trulley.

[253] And there was some really competitive guys, Daria Frankeetie.

[254] Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[255] I love that you were against Max's mom.

[256] Yeah.

[257] Did she beat you?

[258] Yes, she did.

[259] Yeah, yeah.

[260] Yeah, yeah.

[261] How crazy that you're now working with her son.

[262] I mean, I'm a trippy way.

[263] When we met when we were 13, I don't think any fuss could have predicted that.

[264] No, completely unimaginable at that point.

[265] Like, you know what, I bet in 30 years you'll have this boy.

[266] He'll be a phenom and I'm going to be his boss.

[267] That's where all this is at.

[268] You have two brothers.

[269] I got two brothers.

[270] I'm the middle of three.

[271] So my older born is a sense of one.

[272] He's a lawyer.

[273] Okay.

[274] He's smart.

[275] And so he's, yeah, he was the golden child at school, you know, did all the exams properly and everything.

[276] I was the one that was, you know, school was like a social thing for me. Right.

[277] And then my younger brother is completely wild.

[278] That is the always the pattern with three boys now.

[279] Yeah.

[280] The baby brother is the scariest brother of all brothers.

[281] He is.

[282] He's just moved to L .A., so be careful.

[283] Oh, yeah.

[284] And what does he do?

[285] He runs an events business.

[286] He's got a big events thing.

[287] So they do a lot of it.

[288] Actually, he's doing a lot of work with McLaren at the moment.

[289] He's doing all their Las Vegas entertainment and everything.

[290] Okay.

[291] I don't know about that.

[292] I know.

[293] Exactly.

[294] That's exactly what I told them.

[295] Yeah.

[296] The house divided.

[297] Yeah.

[298] There must be a point that your parents go, okay, wow, he's going to go all in on this.

[299] And that's obviously going to make it impossible for him to go to uni or start a normal career.

[300] Are they nervous at that juncture?

[301] Like I guess you join the Formula 3 first?

[302] Oh, I went Formula Rena.

[303] I want a scholarship where Renault said we'll take the top three British karting guys and we'll give them a scholarship to move from carting into car racing.

[304] And that was when I was 18 years of age.

[305] So my mom and dad, they wanted me to go to university.

[306] So they insisted that I get a place at university.

[307] So I just filled out the form for some completely random university somewhere in Wales that I've never heard of with no intention.

[308] Okay, just room and board.

[309] It was just ticking the box.

[310] And then off, I left school at 18 and what I wanted to be was a race car driver.

[311] And I guess they're out of the picture at that point, but were they scared for you?

[312] They were, yeah, they had their concerns.

[313] Yeah.

[314] I mean, forget the actual physical threat.

[315] Just the lifetime career anxiety.

[316] Well, they did a deal with me. They said, look, take a year out because you could do that between school and university.

[317] So I said, take a year out and see where this goes.

[318] But you've got a place at university that you can go back to.

[319] That was the deal.

[320] They just wanted a safety map.

[321] So yeah, exactly, exactly.

[322] I still haven't gone yet.

[323] Well, life's long.

[324] It's short and long.

[325] Yeah.

[326] You know, we don't know.

[327] Toto's sending lots of people to Harvard, it seems like.

[328] Somehow I think if you want to exploit that over tenuous that relationship is maybe he could get you enrolled there.

[329] Well, the funny thing is both my brothers went through universities and got degrees and so on.

[330] And then I get given an honor.

[331] doctorate from Cranfield University in the UK, which they say, you never did a day.

[332] You know, we worked our asses off in university and suddenly you've got a doctorate.

[333] Yeah.

[334] I'm one of the few actors without a honorary doctorate degree.

[335] And I've even given a commencement speech, so I don't know why I didn't.

[336] I must have to shit the bet on it and then they didn't give it to me or something.

[337] But I guess if we fast forward, you do climb the ladder of racing.

[338] You do well your first season with Renault.

[339] You win a race.

[340] Yeah, exactly.

[341] one rookie.

[342] I beat a guy Pedro de la Rosa that ended up in Formula One.

[343] I won my first race.

[344] And suddenly that you start to get a bit of hype around you.

[345] Like, this is the new kid and he's, you know, he's looking promising.

[346] So I got picked up by Lotus at the time in the Formula One team.

[347] And my mom and dad were away somewhere.

[348] They put a contract in me for, it was like a five -year contractor, basically sign my life away.

[349] And they said, if you don't sign this now, we're going to give it to the next guy but this gave me a stepping stone into Formula 3 so I signed this contract and signed up for them to drive in Formula 3 and Lotus were they were on the up they had Johnny Herbert and Alex Zanardi as their race drivers you're going to be disappointed with my knowledge on this just I want to be up front about it I'm one of the posers who fell in love with the sport with Drive and Survive I'm slowly learning Yeah of course I knew Santa I knew Schumacher Okay, so I'm throwing names that you have no idea who they are.

[350] Right, but I did know some of the cardy ones.

[351] So I am gathering it, but I just want to be very forthcoming.

[352] But Zanardi came over here.

[353] He was pretty successful.

[354] He won the Champ Car series.

[355] And unfortunately, he lost his legs in a horrible accident at the loud -sitz ring.

[356] But anyway, they were the drivers at the time.

[357] And they enabled me to drive that car, that Formula One car, as a test driver.

[358] Oh, really?

[359] So I did a little bit of testing in 1993.

[360] that was.

[361] And I finished second in the championship.

[362] And I'm still, this is my goal and dream.

[363] And you know, when you can visualize yourself, I could see, you know, I was just visualizing myself being a, a Grand Prix driver.

[364] Well, that's what I was most curious about what your internal confidence was at that time.

[365] There's the presenting confidence.

[366] Yeah.

[367] And then there's the home at night in bed, maybe.

[368] But you were at that stage, you thought I'm going to do this.

[369] I lack the presenting confidence, but I had this, I could just visualize my, I thought, yeah, I'm going to do it one day, I'm going to do it, and blah, blah, but the problem is the higher you rise, the harder it, the harder it gets, the more competition and the cars get faster and suddenly danger becomes prevalent, you know, and suddenly racing then up in a Formula two cars and having driven a Formula One, I'm like, wow, this thing is like, you can.

[370] It's getting serious.

[371] It's serious.

[372] You could seriously mess your hair up in this.

[373] Yeah.

[374] So, and I suppose there was something in me that then, started to build in a little bit of a little doubt a bit of doubt and a bit of a safety factor particularly in some of the high speed corners would it be fair to describe this is or this would be my guess i've only raced like i raced the super trafeo series no real down force right so i've never experienced real down force my guess would be as you're ramping up in these cars and the downforce is getting more and more it's almost like an exponential curve of commitment yeah where it's like a lot of turns you go, well, the car's not going to work unless I enter this turn at 1 .30.

[375] But I got to get to 1 .30 for the car to work.

[376] And getting brain and foot to connect at that point, I had a damper in between.

[377] And in the slow speed corners, you could be as quick as anybody because there's less risk.

[378] But suddenly you're, you're herring down a straight at over 200 miles an hour.

[379] And you're coming up to the corner that everybody's telling you that's flat out.

[380] Flat.

[381] And And your brain is computing this and going, that doesn't look flat out to me. And your heart's saying, no, come on, let's get on with it.

[382] Yes.

[383] But my breath is a leap of faith to think the car will stick.

[384] Exactly.

[385] But my brain would often overrule my heart and say, come on, let's build a margin in here.

[386] Yeah, let's live to see tomorrow.

[387] Yeah, exactly.

[388] And then you end up building up to it.

[389] And they're really good guys.

[390] They've just got a natural aptitude for it, a complete inner confidence in themselves, a feeling of their car.

[391] and they don't have to build up to it.

[392] They just go and do it.

[393] Right.

[394] And that's something I've seen from when I was driving with the good guys as well that they just go and do it and they don't need to build up.

[395] They don't need a session.

[396] They don't need to...

[397] They hop in and go.

[398] They just go.

[399] And I had this very vivid moment where I was running in Formula 3 ,000, which is now the Formula 2 equivalent.

[400] And there was a driver you might have heard of this one, where I'm Pablo Montoya.

[401] Yes, yes.

[402] I'm glad this story's true because I was wondering if it was a popular.

[403] I know a Colombian super fast driver.

[404] And we were at Esterrival.

[405] before the season, I was track in Portugal.

[406] And Esteril is a long straight, and the old school track used to have two very fast right -hand corners.

[407] And there'd be a barrier that was about 20 meters from the track.

[408] And they were sort of like a sixth gear corner, so we're talking 160, 170 mile now.

[409] Yeah, yeah.

[410] And I'm coming out of the pit lane that filters onto the track, and Montoya comes, herring pass, and he commits to this right -hand turn.

[411] And I can just see the car is moving and dancing around and the rim is trying to pop through the sidewall of the tire.

[412] And he's on opposite lock.

[413] And he's got his right foot absolutely planted.

[414] In the kitchen.

[415] And I just knew at that point, I can't do that.

[416] I cannot.

[417] I couldn't either have the confidence or the skill or the bravery to commit to that corner in the way he did.

[418] So I knew prior to that season, look, as far as I'm going to go with that.

[419] I was honest with myself to say, look, I'm not even going to try and carve a career out in another category.

[420] I'm going to need to do something because I don't want to go to a university.

[421] Right, right, right.

[422] You know, I need to earn a living.

[423] Yeah.

[424] And I've created this team.

[425] At this point, you started the team that you're driving for Arden.

[426] That's right.

[427] Okay.

[428] So I want to spend two seconds on that decision because you're saying it like it's, it was obvious to you in the moment.

[429] that you were able to accept that.

[430] But there wasn't like, that's a very hard, especially if you start at 12 or 11.

[431] Yeah.

[432] For 10 years now, your identities, that's where I'm going.

[433] This is what I'm going to do.

[434] Life makes sense to me because I'm in pursuit of this.

[435] This is an enormous, this is like my identity shatters.

[436] It's back to the drawing board.

[437] Who am I?

[438] Where am I going?

[439] Yeah.

[440] Was it brutal that decision?

[441] It was brutal, but it also had another route.

[442] And having created this team.

[443] Yeah.

[444] Because motor racing survives on sponsorship.

[445] And as a young driver coming up, it's dependent in many cases on the sponsorship that you can generate and you have to go to a team and you buy a ride.

[446] And I had a certain amount of money not to go to a top team.

[447] And I thought, I don't want to go to a shitty team.

[448] I may as well buy the car myself, employ an engineer and a couple of mechanics.

[449] And at least I got the car at the end of the year rather than a set of overalls and some pictures.

[450] Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[451] And so really, starting the team was a means to an end for me to go racing.

[452] You already started seeing the backup plan, simultaneous to that.

[453] Well, not at that point.

[454] When I started the team, it was like, okay, this is the most cost -effective way for me to get to Formula 2.

[455] But then having seen the Montoya effect, I'd like, okay, I need a plan B here.

[456] And the plan B would be maybe I could build this team up and I could run this team and I can stay in the sport.

[457] And rather than, and be honest with myself.

[458] And it was like, don't kid yourself.

[459] If I can't play at the highest level, I don't want to, you know, I don't want to play.

[460] I'm going to, going to do something else.

[461] Yeah.

[462] And at this point, you're in Formula 3 ,000.

[463] Yeah, that's right.

[464] Which was a league as an answer to Formula 2 because Formula 2 had become so expensive.

[465] Yeah, Formula 2, I don't know what happened with the name, but they renamed it Formula 3 ,000 at that point.

[466] And that was like the finishing school for Formula 1.

[467] It was the understudy.

[468] It would follow the tour round on about, about, eight or 10 tracks.

[469] And, yeah, so that was the final, the final step before Formula One.

[470] I mean, obviously you reflect back at this age and go, had I stayed that course, I would have never actually been a champion.

[471] Yeah.

[472] And by some surrendering of this original goal, I become a champion six times over.

[473] Yeah.

[474] It's kind of wild.

[475] It is.

[476] But I, and in those early days with the team, you know, I had to take some massive, massive risks because, you know, suddenly you're responsible for employing people.

[477] Yes.

[478] And that suddenly was like a big, you know, responsibility at 24, 25 years of age.

[479] And how about you out on the town trying to scrounge together money from sponsors?

[480] That's an entirely different skill set.

[481] So you've got to hustle and you've got to sell yourself and you've got to raise the money.

[482] And suddenly, you have a responsibility to make sure every Friday, you know, the 10 guys that were in the team were all paid.

[483] and their mortgages and their livelihood, you know, depended on me. And if I crashed the car, I could either afford to repair the car or pay the mechanics, but I couldn't do both.

[484] Right, right.

[485] And so suddenly, you know, that responsibility became a, you know, a real burden.

[486] How did you handle the pressure of that?

[487] I think, again, you build in another safety factor of I cannot afford to crash.

[488] And so for me, it was very clear that I was going to need to stop.

[489] But as well, you know, when you're running a team, a small business like that was very hand to mouth.

[490] You know, I was living off credit cards.

[491] I was maxed out at the bank.

[492] Yeah.

[493] I was depending on so many things coming.

[494] The smallest thing could have tip me, tip me over the edge.

[495] My guess is you're good at managing stress, but even if you're good at it, does that time seem, well, obviously, nostalgia helps.

[496] But does that period seem wonderful in your mind?

[497] Or does it seem like, oh, my God, I barely lived through that.

[498] That was so stressful.

[499] I think it was a great education for me and it was for sure it was stressful and I was booking the hotels I was doing the tax returns I'm doing the payroll I'm washing the truck I'm doing all the buying used trailers off the helmet Marco yeah exactly and you know I was having a hustle to make this thing happen and get the money and so on and what was it like to be in your life at that time if you were a girlfriend or a friend if I'm a girlfriend in Port of you I had a girlfriend at the time and I remember her mother going you need to be thinking of being with somebody else.

[500] Right.

[501] There's no room for you in this.

[502] You need a guy with a proper job.

[503] There's going to be able to get a mortgage, going to buy a house.

[504] Yes.

[505] First paycheck I ever got.

[506] I went and bought a Porsche.

[507] I've shown no responsibility of that at this point of thing.

[508] I was thinking, do you know what?

[509] If all goes wrong, then at least I've given it a go.

[510] I've just recently watched the Beckham documentary.

[511] Have you watched it?

[512] I went to the premiere.

[513] Fantastic.

[514] Whoa.

[515] I got to be, again, we don't know about football here.

[516] No. I don't know about Beckham.

[517] Yeah.

[518] I know he's gorgeous and super popular.

[519] I don't know that he's as good as he is.

[520] I think maybe he's just, he's so good looking that he's, that's why he's so famous.

[521] Oh, he's a legend.

[522] Oh, what a fucking legend.

[523] Also, I loved how honestly he was he's like, I got $50 ,000 from Adidas.

[524] I went immediately and bought an M3.

[525] Yeah.

[526] All of the money.

[527] My first, I remember I got 60 ,000 pounds as a, out of a deal when I stopped racing.

[528] And the first thing I did was going to buy a car.

[529] And that was when the girlfriend had me. So, although by that told her to dump me, but the funny thing was that when I was, when I was driving, I had a sponsor and they, they made cakes.

[530] They made like celebration cakes that they were selling to a supermarket.

[531] And they said that we've got, we've signed two licenses, one with a cartoon character called Dennis the Menace to make these cakes with Dennis Menace on.

[532] And we signed one with this, this girl band, you know, called the Spice Girls.

[533] But we think that Dennis the Menace cake is going to.

[534] That's the money in the bank.

[535] So put the dentist and menace on your car.

[536] No. So I had Dennis and the menace on my car.

[537] And they said, if the cake sales go okay, we can pay you a little bit more money.

[538] Yeah.

[539] And so anyway, they started selling the cakes.

[540] And I remember getting a call and saying, look, the cake sales are going well.

[541] But wow, the gold cakes are flying.

[542] So we can actually pay you a little bit more money.

[543] So indirectly, my wife, you know, a very early age was impacting your ability to buy.

[544] She contributed to my career.

[545] Yeah.

[546] Another weird like Max's mom moment.

[547] Yeah.

[548] You just don't know where all these threads are going to weave together.

[549] What skills are you picking up in that like hard scrabble scrounging for every part and in sponsorship?

[550] Like what is becoming obvious to you?

[551] Because you guys go on to win in 2000, what, three you win the championship?

[552] 2002, four.

[553] Yeah, three years in a row, won it three years in a row.

[554] And you're not, you cannot be the most well -funded team.

[555] No, we weren't.

[556] And 2002, I was, we were properly on the limit.

[557] But I thought, do you know what, if it's shit or bust, I got to put a driver that can be capable of winning it.

[558] And, of course, the good guys never have any money.

[559] So I took this driver out of Formula One, a check guy.

[560] And he won the championship that year.

[561] He beat a driver, Sebastian Bordeaux that came over here.

[562] And then he got excluded for being a thousand, a thousand percent over the, illegal drug limit.

[563] Yeah, on what drug?

[564] Oh, marijuana.

[565] Oh, really?

[566] Yeah, yeah.

[567] Which is so ironic, because that isn't going to help anybody drive a car fast.

[568] No. They should, in fact, you should get more points if you're bound to be heavily.

[569] It was the first ever drugs case in, in motorsport.

[570] And so anyway, I managed to.

[571] I was expecting you to, as soon as I read that, I was like, I can't wait to find out what drug he was on.

[572] He must have been on speed or he was.

[573] It was a guy, as a guy from the Czech Republic.

[574] I spoke to his manager.

[575] I said, we got a bit of a problem.

[576] He's tested positive for a drugs test.

[577] And his manager said, well, he must have inhaled it.

[578] You know, he's been in a club, something like that.

[579] And he was kind of fungal.

[580] And so, anyway, he made three of his employees sit in a room while three others sort of blew smoke at them and then go and get tested.

[581] And this was like part of his, part of his defense.

[582] And other than having sore eyes, they didn't even register.

[583] So then it turned out that the guy had been taking a medication for some back spasms from a big crash that he had in Japan and he had a check trainer that was just giving him these pills.

[584] And it was THY -H -G.

[585] Yeah, he'd been on it for years.

[586] Oh, wow.

[587] But.

[588] And he won.

[589] He won.

[590] Yeah, he won the championship.

[591] I think of a fucking great he'd be uninjured and sharp.

[592] And then I got him a drive with Newman Hasse.

[593] Okay.

[594] And as soon as the drug thing came out, bang, they pulled everything.

[595] They did.

[596] And they gave it to the other guy.

[597] So he should have won that year.

[598] But that put us on the on the map as a winning team.

[599] team and I won it the next year in 2003, and then we've really dominated in 2004.

[600] So in that period, what had you figured out you were great at?

[601] What was the thing you were doing that you could recognize in yourself?

[602] You have to explain this underdog story of three years in a row.

[603] There must be something you tell yourself, like, okay, this is my knack.

[604] Well, I think it was a few things.

[605] One was having been in the cop, it was understanding some of the motions that a driver goes through.

[606] So being able in a small way to be able to relate to the driver.

[607] It's to get the most out of them, to give an arm around the shoulder.

[608] And driving like in any sport, it's all about confidence as well.

[609] And when you're, when you're sat in the car, it can be a very lonely place.

[610] And when you're looking out, you want to know that the people around you, that they believe in you, that they're not just going through the motions.

[611] And so it was setting, creating an environment that was fun, but that was serious and competitive and hungry.

[612] Yeah.

[613] And we're all in it together and we're a team and we take on the rest of the world with the underdog.

[614] Yeah, yeah.

[615] But, you know, let's punch above our way.

[616] A lot of what you do, as I was thinking about talking to, really, really parallels directors of movies.

[617] And so often the great directors are the ones who've acted themselves.

[618] They understand the insecurity of doing a job where 100 people look at you and you fail at the job 12 times in a row before you get it right.

[619] That's like an important experience to have.

[620] So imagine being a driver helps enormously.

[621] Yeah, so it gave me a great education in that.

[622] And then in terms of, even with a Formula 3 ,000 team, even though there was only 20 people in that team, it was about getting the best engineers, but also sometimes the best guys are some kind of awkward in some way.

[623] Oh, sure.

[624] Yeah.

[625] The engineers, you know, uh, most of the great slightly autistic in some way for sure.

[626] For sure.

[627] So it was learning how to get a diverse group of people to work together as, as one team.

[628] Yeah.

[629] And, and that's what we managed to do.

[630] And I felt that, you know, that was a skill set.

[631] I had was in recognizing people's strengths and weaknesses and being able to to really hopefully get the best out of them.

[632] It's such a mental experience, isn't it?

[633] Yeah, it's totally.

[634] I'm trying to think like if tennis always appears to me to be like maybe apex mental.

[635] You watch some of these players just like break down at some point or lose the momentum and it's just tangible.

[636] Would we say driving on that same level or a little less?

[637] Yeah, you can say it's on that.

[638] I mean, we've got exactly that going on at the moment with check i know i know and it's such a heartbreaking thing yeah and we all want to see him you know do the best that he can but i think since miami it's been been tough for him because he started the year so well yeah he won two races one two races he's right there in the championship we go to miami he gets an open goal because max got a penalty not penalty but red flags and different situations meant that he was outside the top 10 in qualifying and yeah at that point would have been an open goal for Checo and by the 12th lap or something, you know, Max is ahead of him.

[639] And I think that's a demoralizing.

[640] Banks, I think that then created the questions.

[641] Yeah.

[642] And then we went to Monaco.

[643] He tried too hard.

[644] He crashed in practice.

[645] Then you're on the back foot.

[646] And then you end up in poker, we'd say like, he's just on tilt now.

[647] He's like, he's driving on tilt.

[648] And it's kind of obvious.

[649] And it's truly heartbreaking.

[650] I think if there's any driver, well, there's two drivers everyone roots for.

[651] He and Yuki.

[652] Yeah.

[653] He will love fucking Yuki, myself included.

[654] My kids love Yuki.

[655] I mean, yeah, unbelievable.

[656] I think he should be in movies when this is all over.

[657] He's so likable.

[658] He came over to the UK to learn English and drive an English team that was based on the outskirts of London.

[659] And they are something like out of a movie from Snatch or like a Guy Ritchie movie.

[660] So, you know, this little Japanese guy thought that motherfucker or the word fuck was just part of the English language, part of the English vocabulary.

[661] How good he not?

[662] So he gets in a Formula One car, and his very first test, he's going, I got to understand you, motherfucker.

[663] And did he really say that?

[664] Or, you know, it was hilarious.

[665] Oh, it is wonderful.

[666] What seems obvious about you and what is appealing about you, or at least what it seems like in Drive to Survivor, is you love these dudes.

[667] You do.

[668] I mean, I think the testament to that, and the only person I'm really friends with in Formula One is Daniel.

[669] Yeah.

[670] We're buddies.

[671] I think there's a lot of people in your position that would have not invited him back into the family that maybe would have felt that he turned his back on the family.

[672] And I think it shows your colors so much that you were first to go, let's get you back in the family.

[673] Yeah, Daniel, I mean, look, Daniel's a great guy.

[674] Oh, what a do.

[675] Very badly advised in his earlier career.

[676] And everybody fucks up at some point.

[677] And I think he recognized that he made a mistake.

[678] Yeah.

[679] He had not good advice around him at the point that he left up.

[680] us.

[681] And he could see that Max was growing and probably didn't realize just how good he was going to be.

[682] Yeah.

[683] Having spent a few years outside of the family, suddenly realized that, whoa, actually what I had was really good.

[684] Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[685] And it's like when you break up with the girl and you're, oh, fuck me. That dude's with her.

[686] That was pretty good.

[687] So, and it was horrible to see it just get worse and worse and worse.

[688] And it was actually this time last year in Mexico that I sat down with him in my hotel room and I said, look, you need a complete reset.

[689] You know, take a year out.

[690] Come back to us.

[691] We've got a bunch of sponsors and a lot of marketing stuff.

[692] Which, by the way, he's such a win for you guys.

[693] Like I look at, you know, he went over to Dearborn and he was hanging out with Jim Farley.

[694] And then I know Jim Farley.

[695] And then Jim's like, oh my God, that Ricardo guy is the greatest.

[696] And I'm like, he's the dream.

[697] Send him anywhere.

[698] He can be so useful to a team in that capacity.

[699] And he's another confidence driver.

[700] When he's got his mojo, he is one of the fastest guys on the grid.

[701] He's lethal.

[702] He has the magic thing that people have or they don't have, in my opinion, which is there are winners and there's not winners.

[703] I don't know what that is.

[704] Jordan was won.

[705] We have a bunch of examples.

[706] And if you look at his career all in totality, not great, but he has won many races.

[707] He has.

[708] People spend careers never winning a race.

[709] And he came to us.

[710] I mean, he was one of the juniors.

[711] I remember going to watch him in Formula 3.

[712] and so on.

[713] He really stood out and very smooth, very, you know, just great, natural, kind of an elegant driver.

[714] Yeah, almost like a Roger Federer kind of style behind the wheel.

[715] Very, very classic.

[716] Yeah, light touch.

[717] Very light touch.

[718] Great, great, great skill.

[719] And then he came, he came through the system.

[720] We had Sebastian Vettel, a four -time world champion.

[721] Yeah, Beast.

[722] Yeah.

[723] Mark Weber retired.

[724] We taught Daniel as the junior with no expectation on him.

[725] And he started kicking Fettles' ass.

[726] And he was coming out.

[727] He won three races in 2014 when we didn't have far, had far from the best engine.

[728] Yeah.

[729] And Sebastian never won a race that year.

[730] See, this is the thing.

[731] Or even his time at McLaren, it sucked for him.

[732] Yeah.

[733] But also he's the only one that won a race into McLaren.

[734] And for a long time, that.

[735] Yeah.

[736] And Renner, we put in some great performances.

[737] And I think he's, again, he's another confidence guy.

[738] He's got to feel, he's got to feel a love.

[739] He's got to feel comfortable in the environment that he's in, and some of his races for us were absolutely outstanding.

[740] It's really interesting for me to go back now and watch that first season of Drive to survive, because that's at the apex of the Max Daniel stuff, right?

[741] That's right.

[742] And it's not obvious at that moment.

[743] I don't know how you know this stuff.

[744] Yeah.

[745] It's not at that point, if you're asked, a thousand people are asked to judge who's a faster driver.

[746] Who knows?

[747] It's a coin flip.

[748] But Max is a fucking phenom.

[749] I mean, he's a...

[750] And it was obvious at that stage he was coming.

[751] Yeah.

[752] And he was growing.

[753] He's so young.

[754] And so young.

[755] And you could see just the raw talent.

[756] It just needed polishing a bit.

[757] Yeah.

[758] So we gave Max a contract at the beginning of that year in 18 to secure his future.

[759] Yeah.

[760] And Daniel, I remember being upset at the time.

[761] He suddenly felt that, hang on, I don't want to be the support act here.

[762] Yeah, yeah.

[763] And I could tell he was starting to, you know, think of being a bigger fish in a, in a leather pond.

[764] Yeah.

[765] And he got a lot of noise in his ear and that this is the match show.

[766] Well, money's all.

[767] also on the table too.

[768] I thought he was also on the table.

[769] But I remember, I spoke to our owner, Dietrich Madershitz before the Austrian Grand Prix, and I said, look, he's looking a bit marginal with Daniel.

[770] Will you, can you just show him some love?

[771] Because, you know, Helmut, obviously, very pro max, but I think if you could just balance things out, just let him know that you want him.

[772] No problem, I'll speak to him.

[773] So he took him upstairs after the race in, in Austria, and they were gone for well over an hour.

[774] And then they re - To the point where you're saying you get nervous?

[775] Shit, whatever.

[776] Yeah, this should have been a 15 -minute pep talk.

[777] And then they re -emer, they reappear both with smiles on their faces.

[778] And Dietrich comes up to me. I said, well, how did it go?

[779] And he said, yeah, no problem.

[780] It's not even a, it's not even a question.

[781] I said, well, what did you agree with him?

[782] And he said, I said, I said, I was like, wow, do you know what we, do you know what we pay Max?

[783] He went, how much do we pay Max?

[784] And so I gave him the number.

[785] And he said, who the fuck agreed to that?

[786] And I said, well, you did.

[787] And he's like, oh, that's a lot of money.

[788] That's too much money to be too.

[789] And then he went, he said, no, he's a great guy.

[790] Let's do it.

[791] Oh, wow.

[792] Give him the same deal that Max has.

[793] So his agent was obviously jumping through hoops at the time.

[794] And that was for a two -year deal, for a two -year deal.

[795] And then we went off to Germany, to the race.

[796] and his engine blew up because the big issue was the engine at that time.

[797] Yeah, you had the Renault motors, yeah.

[798] And the engine kept letting him down, laying him down.

[799] And then from there we went to Hungary and we got all the paperwork sorted out and this and then his manager came to me and said, look, Daniel's really nervous about the engine situation because we're going to change to Honda.

[800] He'll do one year.

[801] I thought, wow, okay, that's not really what we talked about because in six months we're just going to be having the same conversation.

[802] Right.

[803] So I remember, you know, went back to Detroit.

[804] spoke to Dietrich.

[805] And he said, look, he's about relationships.

[806] It's not about, it's not about contracts or contracting.

[807] If he wants a year, give him a year.

[808] So at this point, he's got everything he would want.

[809] Everything he would want.

[810] Yeah, yeah.

[811] And then he was doing a test for us after the Hungarian race.

[812] And it was like, okay, Daniel, he'll sign the paperwork on, you know, Monday.

[813] And suddenly Monday goes.

[814] And he's in the car on Tuesday.

[815] And I'm saying, I'm starting to smell a little bit of a rat here, because this is an enormous deal.

[816] You'd have thought he'd have been in a rush to sign this contract.

[817] And he didn't sign it before he got in the car in the morning.

[818] And then, oh, he's going to sign it at lunchtime and all that didn't happen.

[819] And then, oh, he's had to get out of the car and go straight to the airport because he's flying here to L .A. He'll call you when he gets to L .A. So I'm smelling.

[820] Yeah, you know you're about to get broken.

[821] If your girlfriend didn't show up to lunch, then dinner, and then she's...

[822] Exactly.

[823] Yeah, you go, I know it's going.

[824] So he rings me. And I was in the car.

[825] car.

[826] I had, I was, Jerry was in the car with me. And he said, look, I've just got off the plane.

[827] I've arrived in LA.

[828] I've been thinking all the flight the way here.

[829] I'm not going to sign the contract.

[830] I'm going to take another contract.

[831] I was like, wow, okay, have you got, have Mercedes or Ferrari come through with something?

[832] And he went, no, I'm going to sign for Renault.

[833] The manufacturers of the motor, I hate.

[834] The engine that's just let him down for the last two years.

[835] And I'm like, I was convinced.

[836] I was convinced he, because Daniel, you know, he's got to sense.

[837] He's a human.

[838] Yes, he's really funny.

[839] He's taking the piss here.

[840] He's definitely, I was like, come on.

[841] Because it is kind of a punchline after the season you had the notion that you would go to a reno.

[842] It's kind of a most obvious joking.

[843] There's no way you're going to rent.

[844] Stop fucking about.

[845] Tell me to sign the contract.

[846] There's any demon's not going to be running a rental motor next year.

[847] It's Renno.

[848] And so after about 10 minutes, he finally persuaded me that he had gone so he was going to go to Reno.

[849] And it's like, you know, it was disappointing.

[850] But again, I want to, I want to applaud you.

[851] A lot of people that go through that.

[852] experience.

[853] Yeah.

[854] Go, all right, fuck you.

[855] Yeah.

[856] You know.

[857] And there was an element of that.

[858] Good luck.

[859] And I'm going to enjoy when this doesn't work out for you.

[860] And that's not you.

[861] There was an element of that at the time thinking, you know what, okay, go and suck on the lemon for a bit.

[862] Yeah.

[863] And then actually, it was during the pandemic.

[864] You remember he called me and he said, Christian, I hate to say this to you, but you were absolutely right.

[865] And I apologize.

[866] And so on.

[867] And yeah, you know, we just we've always had a good relation.

[868] He's a good guy.

[869] He was just badly advised at the time.

[870] Yeah.

[871] The other thing that's relevant, obviously, there's so many rumors about like, what'll happen to Checo?

[872] Who comes to Red Bull?

[873] Blah, blah, blah.

[874] And when we're all talking about it on the show, it's like, I don't even wish that role for anyone.

[875] If I love a driver, let's say Charles.

[876] I love Charles.

[877] I think he's brilliant.

[878] I wish he were on a different team.

[879] I had no desire to watch Charles come and get beat by max every week and be a second driver well it's just like driving next to terminator i mean it's it's just it's a very it's a thankless job he is he is a generational talent and then some right it's crazy you've had two of those drivers because veddle will also go down in the history books right sebastian was a wonderful driver and yeah we're very lucky to have had two guys in in that category but i think max even takes it to another dimension i think so i think like what's ahead is still going to be.

[880] I mean, he's quite stunning what he's done and is doing.

[881] And look, to be his teammate is the hardest job in the pit lane.

[882] Completely.

[883] Yes, the person that you're competing against is the fastest guy to do it for 30 years or whatever we want to say.

[884] Yeah.

[885] So even if you're driving at your apex, you're going to be 0 .3 behind him.

[886] And his soul destroying on, he broke the young teammates that he had come in.

[887] And we took Checo because he's got that bit of experience.

[888] He's got, he's a pretty rounded individual.

[889] And is it fair to say, I think like, say, 2021.

[890] Checkaway had such a role.

[891] Yeah.

[892] The car wasn't as good as Mercedes.

[893] No. And he got to help Max.

[894] Absolutely.

[895] I mean, the quality of the last race is like without stunning.

[896] It's stunning.

[897] Yeah.

[898] I've never seen someone fall in their sword in that manner, like just a hero.

[899] Yeah.

[900] So it was a thankful job at the beginning.

[901] Yeah.

[902] But now we've transitioned into the car's dominant.

[903] Yeah.

[904] And it's just like you want to show up and finish second or even worse, you don't finish second.

[905] And everyone knows you should.

[906] Yeah.

[907] It's a rough.

[908] It's a, it's a rough.

[909] It's a, it's a, rough.

[910] It's tough and it's such a judgmental sport that you're as good as your last race in in so many respects.

[911] And I think that, you know, Checo bought a bunch of experience.

[912] And he said, look, he's a tough, tough operator.

[913] He's got mental resilience that.

[914] He's a last person other than Max, I want to try to pass.

[915] Yeah.

[916] He's a racer.

[917] Yes, he will die.

[918] He will fucking die.

[919] He's not a qualifier, but he's an absolute racer.

[920] I totally agree.

[921] He's so fun to watch battle.

[922] He's fearless.

[923] Yeah.

[924] So he has an identity.

[925] He has an identity.

[926] He will.

[927] He will fucking.

[928] He's a that's still great.

[929] Absolutely.

[930] And I think that, you know, Checo has done a great job next to Max during the last three years because when you're looking at the data of what Max is doing, and you've only got to, if you look at a race like Japan, the very first lap that Max does out of the pits is two seconds quicker than the rest of the field.

[931] And you're looking at that data and you're thinking, how has he done that?

[932] Yeah.

[933] How has he done that?

[934] And so often, you know, that will happen.

[935] And I think the problem is for Checo, he's trying to compare himself to Max.

[936] And what he needs to do is forget about Max.

[937] And just focus on himself.

[938] Don't even look at his data.

[939] Don't even look at just, just focus on being the best you can be.

[940] And, you know, as we saw earlier in the years, sometimes that can be good enough.

[941] Absolutely.

[942] But you look at, or again, I don't know the guy, but what appeared to be how much Botas was enjoying that role, it was terrible on him.

[943] Yeah.

[944] It was not fun for him to be racing with Lewis in that car.

[945] No. Or if you go back against, you know, Seno or his.

[946] his teammates or Schumacher.

[947] Yeah, it's demoralizing.

[948] Yeah, you know, you can see there's a pattern with those guys that have just destroyed their teammates.

[949] You know, teammates that are all very capable drivers.

[950] Yes.

[951] Yeah, the person that comes in, they have to enter, I think.

[952] Yeah.

[953] Wanting to retire, having finished second many, many years in a row.

[954] You see, Chekko was out, you know, 2020, he was done.

[955] And I remember we were struggling at the time with Alex Albon, because he, come in too soon.

[956] And we just needed somebody.

[957] Can I just say none of my business?

[958] He's the guy I would want in the second seat.

[959] Yeah, he's brilliant.

[960] He's so good.

[961] He's fantastic.

[962] And he deserves to be flying.

[963] And he did a fantastic job for us when he stepped down as to be test driver.

[964] He never complained.

[965] He never moaned.

[966] He put in the hours.

[967] And I was really happy.

[968] I was able to find him a seat in Williams.

[969] Yeah.

[970] And he was.

[971] He overdrides that car every week.

[972] He's demonstrating what is, you know, he's found his form.

[973] he's got the experience now.

[974] He's toughened for sure.

[975] Yeah.

[976] And, you know, he's a hot property again.

[977] And, you know, Checo at the time, at the end of 20, he just won that race in Bahrain from the back of the grid.

[978] And it was like, you know, we need somebody with a chunk of experience that can bring another dimension to being Max's teammate.

[979] And, yeah, he certainly did that in 21.

[980] And he's been a big part of the success the last few years.

[981] Yeah, it wasn't obvious to me when you guys hired him.

[982] but as I watched him race and I realized, oh, this is the ideal teammate for Max.

[983] How do you, again, you take Vettel.

[984] You've now got to be the boss of, again, two of the greatest drivers to ever drive.

[985] I presume their personalities are different.

[986] Totally diametrically opposite.

[987] Okay, great.

[988] In which ways?

[989] Sebastian is very much the analytical German into every single detail would be at the track until 11 o 'clock at night, challenging data.

[990] his after race debrief it'd take him half an hour just to do the formation lap before the race he even started he was just driven and he had a very good mechanical mind perfection and you know very Germanic in the way that he went about organizing his life and he'd read the Michael Schumacher school of motor racing and that was how he was going to live live his life yeah and Max is just different max huge huge natural ability, not really that interested in all the detail.

[991] He will give you what he needs to go faster.

[992] And that's it.

[993] What are my limitations?

[994] Yeah.

[995] I can feel, I'm in perfect concert with this thing and I can tell you what feels wrong to me. That's what I need.

[996] Just saw that out and I'll go quicker.

[997] Saw that problem out and he does go quicker.

[998] Right.

[999] And you know when you strap with me and you're going to get 110%.

[1000] He's a guy that hates testing.

[1001] You know, he's testing for him is like a waste of a day.

[1002] He's just a racer.

[1003] He just wants to race.

[1004] And if he's not racing in the real world, he's racing in the virtual world.

[1005] That's insane.

[1006] And he'll give you 110 % but he expects 110%.

[1007] Yeah.

[1008] I think you guys are great partners.

[1009] So, yeah, just, but then when he takes the helmet off, he's the nicest young guy you could ever meet, very unassuming, doesn't want to.

[1010] He's shy, right?

[1011] He's shy.

[1012] He's naturally shy.

[1013] He doesn't want to be.

[1014] Fame sits uncomfortably with him.

[1015] Yeah.

[1016] He's not a diva or anything like that.

[1017] He's just one of the boys.

[1018] It's interesting, as I've met the other drivers and I, of course, gather gossip about all of them.

[1019] And every time I hear these stories, the kind of resounding unanimous feedback is like everyone loves Max.

[1020] Everyone tells me Max is actually the sweetest guy off the track.

[1021] Yeah.

[1022] And shy and nice.

[1023] He's just a good guy.

[1024] And he's a fun guy.

[1025] And he's old school as well.

[1026] in, you know, he won the championship in Qatar, and I said, okay, let's get the whole team together.

[1027] We'll just have a couple of drinks.

[1028] It's not every day you win a world championship, and it was unusual to win it on a Saturday.

[1029] Right, yeah.

[1030] And we got a Grand Prix, by the way, in 42 degrees on Sunday, so everybody needs to be in bed at a sensible time.

[1031] Yeah, yeah.

[1032] Yeah, Max is five gin and tonics in, and it's like, guys, we need to stop bed, right?

[1033] Everybody needs to go to bed now.

[1034] So everybody was, you know, hanging on Sunday.

[1035] They, you know, we got all the drivers passing out with a heat.

[1036] I think Max was on some kind of detox.

[1037] Yes, yeah.

[1038] Listen to me. Listen to me. And you don't have to comment on this.

[1039] But many times over the years I've been watching, I was like, Max might do better hungover.

[1040] This is now another challenge he can overcome.

[1041] So he, you know, he trains hard.

[1042] He takes it all very, very seriously.

[1043] But he's just got such huge ability, such huge.

[1044] I've never met a driver with as much self -confidence or self -belief.

[1045] You know.

[1046] It's infectious.

[1047] When you're watching him and you see him go for something, you just believe, you believe, as the, you're almost not even afraid for him.

[1048] You're like, oh, it's infectious.

[1049] He can do anything he wants.

[1050] He's like a dog with a bone.

[1051] And you see his helmet in the mirror.

[1052] You know he's going to have a go.

[1053] You just know he's coming.

[1054] One of my other preoccupations with Max is watching all of the OCD things he does, which is very fascinating.

[1055] Watch him put his gloves on the thing and he's got to adjust those three times.

[1056] When he takes his helmet, he's got to do that.

[1057] There was the tear off strip just stuck to the front of the car and he could not let it go.

[1058] You had to fucking pull it off while he was driving.

[1059] That stuff interests me so much.

[1060] But we all have those things.

[1061] I mean, I've had that since I was driving.

[1062] I mean, I have a lucky toilet at each track.

[1063] I'll always approach the drivers from the right -hand side on the grid.

[1064] I'll always stand in the garage for the start of a Grand Prix.

[1065] You know, so there's little things that I think, I don't so much think they're superstitions, is they're just ways of getting you into your.

[1066] I've heard a lot of athletes tell me you control all the things you can control.

[1067] before you get to the thing you ultimately can't control.

[1068] That's kind of what's driving it.

[1069] I'm sure there's a lot of them.

[1070] Yeah, it's like every, I'm going to control every element until the uncontrollable starts.

[1071] What have you learned over the, how long have you guys been together now, seven years?

[1072] Max, since 2016, yeah.

[1073] Seven years.

[1074] How have you adjusted how you communicate with him and help him?

[1075] Have you figured some stuff out along the way?

[1076] Well, he's evolved so much because when he came to us, he was a teenager.

[1077] He was like 17 years of age.

[1078] Insane.

[1079] He had a dream debut, he won on his debut.

[1080] Fucking unreal.

[1081] bang you know he's arrived and he's the most intricate and a relationship is with the engineer because the engineer is the closest you're ever going to get to a to a coach he's living and breathing the data he's he's the only one with you he's the only one with you he's in the car he can see how hard you're pushing the throttle the brakes he's seeing all he can even sense your mood by what he's seeing in the yeah in the data and so he's he's he's totally it's a marriage it's a marriage And he's totally in tune with what is going on with his driver in the car.

[1082] Now, Max is a bit like a thoroughbred racehorse.

[1083] You know, he's high strong or what would we say?

[1084] He's, you know, he's definitely red -blooded and, you know, he definitely can rev pretty quick.

[1085] Yeah, yeah.

[1086] And it takes a strong character to not take any of that personally.

[1087] To not take that personally and to be able to channel it.

[1088] And so the relationship that he has with Jampera or GP is his race engine.

[1089] They've been together since day one.

[1090] and GP joined us to be Sebastian Vettel's engineer.

[1091] Okay.

[1092] And then Sebastian left and he ended up as Danny Kivyat's engineer for a year.

[1093] And then Maxx joined.

[1094] And that relationship has just developed and developed a bit like a marriage.

[1095] It's becoming very fun to listen to on the telecast.

[1096] To the point that it's like...

[1097] Because he's thrown some jabs back occasionally when you can feel it's the right time.

[1098] And you'll probably only get in half of it.

[1099] So this is going on constantly between the two of them.

[1100] where they're jabbing at each other, even in the garage and blah on the stuff that you can't hear that's on our close circuit.

[1101] And there's just this banter or this total trust as well between the two of them.

[1102] I remember at Silverstone this year, Max drove out of the pit lane and he clipped the pit wall and he damaged the front wing.

[1103] Yeah, yeah.

[1104] It was the only incident all year.

[1105] And they had to pull him back in the grid.

[1106] And his engineer said, Max, what happened there?

[1107] And I lent to him on the pit wall.

[1108] I said, look, GP, he's just hit the pit wall.

[1109] And he came back to me and he said, yeah, I know.

[1110] I just want to hear him set.

[1111] I want him to admit.

[1112] I want him to admit that he's driven our car.

[1113] The flawless person is flawed.

[1114] So they've got that kind of, you know, banter.

[1115] And respect is the most important thing.

[1116] There's a big respect between that.

[1117] But you personally, ultimately, it's all rolling downhill from you.

[1118] Yeah.

[1119] Let me also say to you, I thought.

[1120] I thought Austin was a really beautiful display of the team.

[1121] So often it's Max, you know, like Max gets so much credit.

[1122] We know that cars great.

[1123] That's kind of Adrian Newey, we all go, fuck this guy, Adrian Newey.

[1124] He's got more championships than anybody, which by the way, you brought him.

[1125] So hats off to you, you brought him to the team.

[1126] It's not always on display, but I would say Austin was incredible, where you're watching this race and you're going, everyone, okay, they're on a one stop, they're ahead, how's this going to work?

[1127] And similar to that confidence you have as if you were watching Max, when you guys, when you guys You guys switch to two -stop, or I don't know that you switch, but when you commit to two -stop, everyone I'm watching was like, that's not going to work.

[1128] They're this amount of time.

[1129] You know, everyone's trying to calculate in their head.

[1130] Yeah.

[1131] And I literally go, there's no way they're wrong.

[1132] There's no way they're wrong.

[1133] Like, that's how confident.

[1134] I think that's how well the team is working, where I go, if I got to bet who's right here, it's them.

[1135] And you guys were.

[1136] I thought it was a really great moment for the team in Austin.

[1137] No, absolutely.

[1138] And I think, you know, as a race team, we've always been an attacking race team.

[1139] We've always, you know, we've pitted from the leads to take better tires to make sure that rather than having a protecting track position, we're on the right tires at the right time.

[1140] And I think as a race team, our mantra has always been, you know, no risk, no fun.

[1141] You also have maintained this underdog thing, which is crazy, even though at this point.

[1142] Even though we're winning a chunk of races.

[1143] You know, that's the way we've always gone racing.

[1144] And that's something that we've embodied with throughout the team is, come on, we can take this on.

[1145] And we can do this.

[1146] We can achieve this.

[1147] Who should we credit for that strat?

[1148] Who deserves the credit for the impeccable strategy all season?

[1149] Oracle.

[1150] Wonderful.

[1151] And specifically Ellis.

[1152] I just say he in particular.

[1153] So, no, we get some great software, but it's as good as the numbers you put into it.

[1154] And it's something that's, you know, Hannah gets a lot of credit, but she's just one of a team and and you know will Courtney her boss and and the other strategist Steve Knowles and so on you know everybody works as a team and and they'll put options in front of me and and then yeah how involved are you in those oh how much involved I want I'm if you like we have a chain of command and and the strategists will I'm working most with the strategist through the race so they will present options to me at any point in time if a safety car comes out now what we're going to do?

[1155] Are we going to split the cars?

[1156] We're going to pit both?

[1157] Are we going to double stack?

[1158] And sometimes these decisions have to be made in about eight seconds.

[1159] Yeah, yeah.

[1160] And I'm constantly challenging them, what if, what if, what if?

[1161] And they're constantly coming up with scenarios in front of me. So it's very much a team effort.

[1162] If you had to give a percentage to how confident you are, let's say, Austin, when you make the decision for the two stop, are we at 60 % confident?

[1163] Are we at 51 %?

[1164] I think in terms of confidence of running our fastest race, we're at 90%.

[1165] Okay.

[1166] When you make those decisions, you're not like super stressed that.

[1167] No. So in Austin, we're 90 % confident that's our best race.

[1168] Well, we don't know what's going to happen is how are the others going to react?

[1169] What are they going to be?

[1170] Well, they reacted poorly.

[1171] Exactly.

[1172] And so Mercedes sort of set off on another journey and then they aborted.

[1173] And then that immediately puts them in sort of no man's land.

[1174] And so, yeah, they ended up on a better tire at the end of the race, but they hadn't got the track position at that point in time listen you're reluctant to own your own gifts but i'm going to keep pushing so another thing i'm curious is how you kept your optimism between you went you guys win four as a team yeah and then you just watch mercedes went for eight fucking years that was tough how do you stay optimistic hungry and focused in that much defeat well i felt a responsibility and i had a belief that we just needed to address the elements that were causing the issue.

[1175] And we went from winning, you know, 10, 11, 12, 13, 4 on the bounce.

[1176] And then a massive regulation change to the engine.

[1177] And our engine supply completely missed the target.

[1178] And at that point, you know, Vettel leaves because of the engine.

[1179] Adrian came very close to leaving.

[1180] He was within about half an hour of signing.

[1181] Well, I've been told he kind of just went on a soft retirement.

[1182] He stayed, but he started working on other cars and stuff.

[1183] Ferrari came hard for him.

[1184] And he was, and they promised him the world, you can have a Hollywood lifestyle, fly into the factory for Monaco every day and not pay any tax and you can design a road car and this, that, the other.

[1185] And I managed to persuade him to stay by saying, look, we'll do a road car.

[1186] If you want to do a road car, we'll do a road car.

[1187] He said, well, how?

[1188] I said, well, I have no idea, but we'll find a way.

[1189] We'll make it happen.

[1190] And through the relationship that we had with Aster Martin and so on, their CEO, I went to Andy Palmer and said, look, we've got to arguably the best designer of all the time.

[1191] You've got a great brand.

[1192] We're not going to finance the car, but it would make sense to bring these two things together.

[1193] And that's literally in a pub in England.

[1194] That's how it happened.

[1195] Oh, wow.

[1196] Similar to your relationship with Ford now.

[1197] When I interviewed Jim, he's like, I looked around and I was like, we need Arrow bad for this electric movement.

[1198] Yeah.

[1199] How do I get Arrow?

[1200] Yeah, exactly.

[1201] And I think it was able to, it enabled Adrian to fulfill his ambition.

[1202] It kept him in the team.

[1203] and it was not losing sight of, guys, you know, we just need to sort out, if we can sort the engine issue out, you know, we'll be back in a winning position.

[1204] So maybe it was helpful that it was so obvious what your shortcoming was.

[1205] It was, but it wasn't obvious the way out.

[1206] Right.

[1207] The way out wasn't obvious.

[1208] But at least maybe you could hold under some confidence going, well, that's the thing.

[1209] It's not a mystery what we have to solve.

[1210] But the problem was everybody got used to winning and suddenly you're not winning.

[1211] and nobody likes that.

[1212] So whether it was in the team, suddenly the questions we lost Vettel, even the owners were saying, maybe we'll sell the team.

[1213] Right.

[1214] We'll sell the Audi.

[1215] Morale is just in the toilet.

[1216] You know, so the shareholders for the first time ever, Dietrich was starting to say, we can't do this.

[1217] We need an OEM.

[1218] Yeah, blah, blah.

[1219] So then thankfully, Dieselgate came along and it stopped that deal.

[1220] Right.

[1221] But we came that close to being Audi.

[1222] Oh, wow.

[1223] And then Honda came.

[1224] along.

[1225] And it was a bit of a risk, but it was a calculated risk because we did a season with Toro Rosso, what is out for Tori first.

[1226] I could see the engine was getting better and better, and the Honda guys, they had as much invested as we did for it to work.

[1227] And we could see the product was coming.

[1228] Their heritage in the sport was fantastic.

[1229] Yeah.

[1230] And we decided to go for it.

[1231] Yeah.

[1232] And it all came good.

[1233] How scary is that decision?

[1234] Well, it was sort of nothing to lose, really because the engine was no worse than the Renault and they got a lot more commitment that they were prepared to make.

[1235] So the safe option would have been to stay with what we knew with the Renault guys promising us every year is going to be better.

[1236] Yeah.

[1237] And they're still in the same situation now.

[1238] Whereas Honda, you know, they backed it up by investing.

[1239] By investing.

[1240] And they knew when they got Red Bull as a partner that the expectation was sky high.

[1241] Yeah, it's championships.

[1242] And then suddenly, you know, they came back in a Formula One.

[1243] They never scored a podium.

[1244] First race were on the podium by race nine we're winning right you know we won in austria uh and we went on to win three races for them that year and then suddenly you know the momentum you find to find the momentum yeah is it challenging to have the role you have with say max's dad so close in the scene uh well he's not actually that close he's not he's just there he's visual okay but in terms of it was very clear from the word go that the contract was with max yes you know and and he was welcome to to be a supportive dad.

[1245] And to be honest, we've never, ever had an issue.

[1246] He's never advised.

[1247] With him, I'm sure he's advises Max, you know, behind the scenes and so on.

[1248] But he's been very supportive of Max.

[1249] He's been, yeah, you know, compared to some of the motor racing dads that we've had over the years, he's actually been very, very good to deal with and very easy to have around.

[1250] Yeah.

[1251] Not the smiliest guy.

[1252] Oh, he's a pretty scary looking guy, especially if you're Sergio Perez and he just won in Azerbaijan.

[1253] What's the drive to survive impact on your life?

[1254] And I'm particular interested, again, I'm in a relationship where we're both recognized.

[1255] Okay.

[1256] Her more than me. She's far more famous.

[1257] Right.

[1258] Clearly for a while, you're more invisible than your wife.

[1259] Yeah, for sure.

[1260] And then the show comes along, and I got to imagine you're traveling around the world.

[1261] That's not crazy.

[1262] All of a sudden, like, normal people know you.

[1263] Not just race junkies.

[1264] It's not.

[1265] So, yeah.

[1266] I mean, before Drive Survive, anybody that followed Formula One, yes, you're a name, but you were a name in that paddock and then you leave the paddock and you go back into an anonymity.

[1267] And if you leave the bubble, you leave the bubble.

[1268] You're big in the bubble, but outside the bubble, you know what.

[1269] It's kind of perfect.

[1270] Yeah, exactly.

[1271] It was absolutely perfect.

[1272] And of course, my wife, you know, being in the biggest gold band of all time, has grown up under the media spotlight with people going through a bins and, you know, all the stuff that you're not aware of.

[1273] And, and suddenly They're hacking phones in England.

[1274] I mean, they're fucking brutal.

[1275] There's all kinds of shit.

[1276] Anyway, Drive to Survive comes along and things just go bananas.

[1277] And, you know, it used to be we come into the U .S. And they go, are you Ginger Spice?

[1278] Can I have a photo with you?

[1279] Yeah, yeah.

[1280] Now it's like, are you the dude from Drive to Survive?

[1281] And I like, no, he's much taller than I am.

[1282] And it's amazing.

[1283] I mean, even going around Disneyland the other day.

[1284] I'm sure.

[1285] The amount of people that are, and we were unknown in the U .S. previously, but now, you know, it's unbelievable.

[1286] Even in Santa Monica down on the pier yesterday, we went down there, and it's the amount of people following Formula One is just gone off.

[1287] It's like five -axed in the U .S. It's unbelievable.

[1288] Yeah, if you think of Austin, what was it, this last race was like 420 ,000 fans.

[1289] Five years ago, it was 90 ,000 or 105 ,000.

[1290] It's enormous.

[1291] Exactly.

[1292] I've never seen a show that's more powerful to a sport.

[1293] It's transformed the sport.

[1294] It's transformed the sport.

[1295] It's transformed the business.

[1296] Yeah.

[1297] We've got so many American partners now.

[1298] I mean, Ford Motor Company without Drive to Survive would not be in the former one.

[1299] Oh, fucking Ryan Reynolds buying.

[1300] Larry Ellison.

[1301] Yeah.

[1302] Would not be in Formula One without Drive survive.

[1303] Totally.

[1304] Do you have a good deal of gratitude for it?

[1305] There's some purists that I don't think love the arrival of me and all the other.

[1306] So I have a huge amount of gratitude for it's changed it around, but also a responsibility that we bought all this new fan base in a young fan base, a female fan base.

[1307] Yeah, they love the drivers.

[1308] So suddenly like my 17 year old daughter is, thinks you're cool.

[1309] It's suddenly I've gone up in the cool scale.

[1310] Yes, congratulations.

[1311] You know, so, um, and she's following all the drivers, Yuki or Charles LeClerc or Max or, you know, Alex or whoever.

[1312] Um, and suddenly Formula one is, uh, you know, it's cool.

[1313] Yes.

[1314] Um, and it's bought this whole new following in.

[1315] And And of course, it sits uncomfortably with some, but what you've got to remember is that drives a vibe is a documentary.

[1316] And it's a bit like the Kardashians on wheels.

[1317] You know, it's given you a glimpse behind the scenes into some of the personalities and the struggles.

[1318] And it's not just about the engineering and the sport.

[1319] It's about life, you know, lifestyle.

[1320] And so it's giving, it's just opening that, you know, lid into the world of Formula One.

[1321] You know what I think they've done a great job doing is showing all the drama that happens from third.

[1322] place to 20th.

[1323] But that's to me the thing that they shown a light on where you're like, oh, this is heartbreaking.

[1324] Yeah.

[1325] The stakes to get seventh are huge.

[1326] For many teams to get a 10th, that's everything.

[1327] And knowing how much is going on as opposed to just who won, I think has been really great for the story.

[1328] And suddenly you meet characters like Guntherstein.

[1329] Oh, yes.

[1330] I mean, how scary is he?

[1331] I mean, he used to work for us.

[1332] I had to fire him.

[1333] I mean, how scary was that?

[1334] Sure.

[1335] Did he take it well?

[1336] Well, not really.

[1337] So it's been transformational for the sport.

[1338] Did you have any judgment of your wife for how she handled the attention that now that you've had the attention, you've had to reformulate what your judgment was?

[1339] Absolutely, because she'd grown up in that spotlight.

[1340] Yeah.

[1341] And so she was very protective of private time and so on.

[1342] And, you know, particularly family time and so on.

[1343] And suddenly, bang, you know, this thing turns up.

[1344] and it changes, diametrically, it changes everything.

[1345] Yeah.

[1346] And you started appreciating her boundaries.

[1347] Absolutely.

[1348] You suddenly appreciate, okay, there's a bit of a, you know, a cape that you have to put on a security cape to just protect.

[1349] Just to protect the people that you love.

[1350] Yeah, who haven't volunteered.

[1351] Yeah, exactly.

[1352] They didn't sign up to dad having a selfie every three yards in Disneyland.

[1353] Yes, yes.

[1354] Okay.

[1355] Rapid Fire.

[1356] What is wrong with Ferrari?

[1357] They have the manufacturing prowess.

[1358] They have the budget.

[1359] They have the drivers.

[1360] Do you look at that team and think to yourself, I could go in there and fucking change something.

[1361] Like, I think the biggest problem for this is a national team.

[1362] And that is its problem.

[1363] It needs to get back to being a race team.

[1364] What do you mean by a national team?

[1365] You know, it's an Italian institute.

[1366] And there's too many probably people at the top end that everybody has an input and has a say from the outside.

[1367] looking in, one of our strengths is that we're, you know, we move quickly.

[1368] We make decisions and we stick to them and we just, if we make the wrong decision, we change the decision.

[1369] Right.

[1370] You're nimble.

[1371] And I think for Ferrari, the newspapers have such an influence on, you know, what happens there.

[1372] So, you know, it's a lot of pressure being at, being at Ferrari.

[1373] When you're hearing Lewis act like he will not act like state that he's never seen a car that was so dominant.

[1374] When we have like data that he is qualified people by two seconds.

[1375] Yeah.

[1376] What is, how do you take that?

[1377] I feel that he's got selective memory.

[1378] Sure, sure.

[1379] So, you know, some of the winning that they did in that period was just obscene.

[1380] Yes.

[1381] We've had a good run for a couple of years.

[1382] But the one guy that shouldn't be saying that, I would think is Lewis.

[1383] He's about the only person that can't be mad that some team is dominant.

[1384] Absolutely.

[1385] Absolutely.

[1386] There's been this enormous.

[1387] interest, as we just talked about, will drive to survive.

[1388] It's like, who knows how many X it has gone up in the sport.

[1389] There is concern that people get bored because Red Bull's so dominant.

[1390] Yeah.

[1391] Is this something that I can't imagine you have space to worry about, but is it something that crosses your mind?

[1392] Or do you think, because I guess another solution would be like, no one wants to see a great team make themselves shitty so that the sports more interesting.

[1393] But one of the solutions would be like putting someone with Max that might win some races, at least we're seeing some battles between teammates.

[1394] Is it something that concerns you at all?

[1395] Are you just, hey, I'm winning fucking Constructors' Championships?

[1396] Well, look, my job is to make sure we're winning.

[1397] That's my job.

[1398] And look, 21 was the biggest fight in the history of the sport.

[1399] It was just heavyweight from the first race to the final in Abu Dhabi, where the two drivers ended up saying points.

[1400] Unreal to a 0 .5, right?

[1401] And that year aged me physically.

[1402] Basically.

[1403] I bet.

[1404] So the last couple of years it's been kind of pleasant that they've been slightly less stressful.

[1405] But what you can guarantee is that the field is going to converge.

[1406] And it's only a matter of time.

[1407] And you can already see that happening.

[1408] Meaning like the further away from the new changes we get, people start figuring it out.

[1409] So what will happen is 24, 25, you're going to see the field come much closer.

[1410] Starting to see it a little bit here at the end of this season.

[1411] And the cars, there's things that we see on the McLaren thing.

[1412] Okay, we recognize that.

[1413] That looks up a lot like our solution.

[1414] Very familiar.

[1415] But that's the way Formula One works.

[1416] And next year, a lot of the cars will look the same, I'm sure, because there'll be that convergence.

[1417] Yeah.

[1418] Now, it'll spread again in 26 when the new regs come out.

[1419] But for the next couple of years, it's going to converge.

[1420] So therefore, for us sticking two alphas in the car, you take a of a Stapin and a Hamilton, that is never going to work.

[1421] That would ruin your team.

[1422] Because then you, yeah, you kill your own team.

[1423] Yeah, yeah.

[1424] You need to have a dynamic in the team where the drivers are driving for the team, not just themselves.

[1425] Right.

[1426] And otherwise, it can become so divisive.

[1427] If I was you, I would not feel compelled to bring in a Charles or someone.

[1428] No, absolutely not.

[1429] We want strength and depth.

[1430] And we need to make sure that when those guys come and they're coming, you can see that we're ready to take them on.

[1431] And as a team, we're strong and we're solid.

[1432] What year do you think you'll have to start thinking?

[1433] about the new max we're very far off from that right i mean we're i mean back six years out from that two weeks ago turned 26 years of age so um you know he's still he's still you know very early in his career but you know we have constantly investing in youth and talent we got some kids as young as 13 and racing and carting and how much attention do you pay to that i pay a a reasonable about it's mainly helmets uh domain he's done such a great job in in scouting young talent and developing it and, you know, bringing it through, that that's, you know, his main baby.

[1434] But of course, we're keeping an eye on the youngsters and how they're developing and training and coming through the ranks.

[1435] Yeah.

[1436] Well, this has been such a blast, Christian.

[1437] I can't wait to bump into you again at a race in the near future.

[1438] You're going to be in Vegas?

[1439] I will be in Vegas.

[1440] I am.

[1441] You're coming to my birthday then.

[1442] I'm coming to you.

[1443] I will, I will present the cake to you.

[1444] I'm going to dig up a Dennis the Menace cake.

[1445] Thank you.

[1446] That event is going to be insane.

[1447] It will be nuts.

[1448] Okay, two seconds on that.

[1449] And it can go either going, I'm either going to witness the biggest shit show ever put on, the most expensive shit show ever put on.

[1450] Yeah.

[1451] Or I'm going to watch the most epic thing ever put it.

[1452] Yeah, exactly.

[1453] It's either going to be the biggest sporting event on the planet this year or Or one for the record books.

[1454] Exactly.

[1455] I mean, we're embracing it fully with we're all in.

[1456] And we got a few surprises.

[1457] Will you go out on the track?

[1458] Yeah, for sure.

[1459] You will.

[1460] I saw Max on the simulator there the other day.

[1461] Oh, they have it built out.

[1462] We've built it in our sim at the in the factory and seeing him drive around there.

[1463] Through Las Vegas.

[1464] It's scary.

[1465] And it's fast.

[1466] Is it?

[1467] It is so fast.

[1468] What do you think they're going to hit on Las Vegas Boulevard?

[1469] Oh.

[1470] Unbelievable.

[1471] I mean, it is properly quick.

[1472] I think second only to having a race in Manhattan.

[1473] This is like second, only to that.

[1474] It's going to be so cool, I think, but I think it's going to be because it's going to be a bit cold in the evening.

[1475] Yes, it's a night race is going to be cold.

[1476] I think the tires could be really tricky.

[1477] It could be 50.

[1478] That could be a massive curveball for the whole weekend with the tires, with the teams.

[1479] Could almost be like rain, yeah.

[1480] Yeah, absolutely.

[1481] Yeah.

[1482] Oh, so exciting.

[1483] Cool.

[1484] Well, Christian, thank you so much.

[1485] I hope I get to bump into you on that birthday weekend, and we'll talk again soon.

[1486] Thank you very much.