332 - I'm Phoebe Judge

[0] This is exactly right.

[1] Hello.

[2] And welcome to my favorite murder.

[3] That's Georgia Hardstark.

[4] And that's Karen Kilgariff.

[5] And I'm Phoebe Judge.

[6] This is criminal.

[7] Yes.

[8] And I'm Phoebe Judge.

[9] And this is also criminal.

[10] Phoebe, when everybody did impressions of you, how did you receive that?

[11] Well, it was really funny because people would do impressions.

[12] I mean, I thought it was really funny.

[13] But it's interesting what people do impressions.

[14] impressions.

[15] People do impressions of me reading ads.

[16] So support the criminal comes from Stamps .com.

[17] You know, people think I say calm, C -O -M, oddly.

[18] Or another one people would say, he's like, I got my dad a Casper mattress and he loved it.

[19] You know, so, you know, I thought it was good, you know, because I'm a little understated in my endorsements of things.

[20] And so, sure.

[21] Some of them are really good.

[22] And some of them are men with like Australian accents, but really leaning into trying to sound like, I mean, it's never going to work, but you can tell they're really giving it a go.

[23] Yeah.

[24] We actually have a compilation.

[25] We put together a compilation.

[26] It's about three minutes, and it's just different people saying, I'm Phoebe Judd and doing impressions.

[27] Oh, I love it.

[28] Now you can add yourself to that compilation because you were doing an impression of yourself doing a stamps .com.

[29] That's right.

[30] Meta.

[31] Meta.

[32] You know, it would be great is I would love just a whole podcast.

[33] I'm pitching you a podcast right now.

[34] I'm just you reading one -star Yelp reviews of restaurants, which I would listen to that, right?

[35] Absolutely.

[36] Disgusting.

[37] Horrible.

[38] Is that just me?

[39] That's like a really niche.

[40] That's niche.

[41] Horrible, period.

[42] Yes, completely.

[43] The worst night of my life.

[44] Yeah.

[45] I came here for the pizza, but the service was terrible.

[46] I'm Phoebe Judge.

[47] And this was Papa Jones.

[48] Karen.

[49] Maybe it's Karen's a new podcast.

[50] Can I say, too, that last time you were on the podcast, everyone thought that you sang the fabulous word, mother fuck, people thought it was Karen doing it.

[51] So I would just like to go on record and say that you yourself did utter those words.

[52] It wasn't Karen's impression.

[53] It was Phoebe Judge who said, motherfucker.

[54] I own it.

[55] I'm Phoebe Judge.

[56] I'm Phoebe Judge.

[57] Motherfuck.

[58] It was me. It was me. she's holding her hand on a Bible right now.

[59] This is an oath that she is taking.

[60] She's holding up a newspaper with the date on it.

[61] Yes, exactly.

[62] It was so wonderful to have you, obviously.

[63] We had the best time last time.

[64] And of course, all of the listeners, all of our audiences, I believe, which there's a gigantic crossover, were truly thrilled.

[65] I mean, like people really got excited.

[66] So thank you so much for doing it.

[67] Now I feel like I'm talking like you.

[68] So thank you so much for doing that.

[69] But no, it was such a fun thing to have you tell us a story.

[70] Yeah.

[71] I was so happy to come on and I was so happy that it didn't tank.

[72] Yeah.

[73] That people seem to enjoy it.

[74] And it's really fun to get to find these stories and tell you both these stories.

[75] All the stories that we're coming up with to talk to about are things that we just really love and think are just wild stories and haven't been able to do yet.

[76] Yeah.

[77] That's such a great like, yeah, crossover idea.

[78] because, you know, we're a little loose, loosey -goosey here on my favorite murder.

[79] The opposite of criminal, I would say.

[80] You know, the opposite of professional, I think, is what they called us in the New York Times.

[81] No, I'm just kidding.

[82] Well, and also the way she just said that, it really seems like Phoebe has a lot of stories waiting for us.

[83] Like, this is something that can continue on if we play our cards right and maybe don't do impressions of her the entire time.

[84] But can we close with one, one -star review of a restaurant?

[85] Like, can I just, I think it'd be pretty great.

[86] But this time's exciting because we don't know the story you're going to tell us.

[87] Last time, you know, we got to read it.

[88] It was really exciting.

[89] We got to ask you the questions because we know what's going on.

[90] But this time we all decided, let's just, we're going to go on cold.

[91] Pure surprise.

[92] So we have no idea what story you're telling us.

[93] Okay.

[94] Well, I think it's a wild one.

[95] And I'll just start.

[96] And if you find yourself curious about anything, tell me, jump in.

[97] But I'll begin.

[98] Okay.

[99] I love it.

[100] On February 1st, 1957, Northeast Airlines Flight 823 was scheduled to leave from LaGuardia to Miami.

[101] It was snowy and cold in New York.

[102] Passengers boarded the plane, though, at 240 in the afternoon.

[103] There was a snowstorm going on, but not enough to make them delay the flight right then.

[104] They got on the plane and weather was bad, and they were delayed.

[105] One of the things that was going on is that there were snow and ice on the wings of the plane.

[106] and they had to wait while the plane was scraped and de -iced.

[107] We all, I think, have spent time, like, waiting on the tarmac while that thing comes over and sprays the body of the plane.

[108] In the 50s, they used ethylene glycol or antifreeze.

[109] They just sprayed it all over the plane.

[110] It was pretty rudimentary stuff.

[111] I mean, it still might be, but it's always seemed like that to me. You know, I just like, is this going to work, like, when the thing's coming and spraying the windows?

[112] Yeah.

[113] But that hadn't always been the case.

[114] It started in the 1950s that states established these regulations, that you had to get the frost and snow off of the wings and the propellers.

[115] I mean, before that, it was kind of dry and take off if you can, but it was just about this time that they were regulating and that this had to be done.

[116] So they were working on getting the ice and snow off of the plane.

[117] At that point, it had been, you know, a couple of hours, and the passengers were let off the plane at 4 .30.

[118] Finally, they said, okay, get off the plane, go wait at the gate.

[119] We'll come back when we're all set.

[120] The plane was pretty full.

[121] It was also pretty heavy.

[122] It was something like 98 ,700 pounds, which was just about 260 pounds under the maximum allowed weight for takeoff.

[123] And this plane was a DC -6.

[124] So it was kind of a common passenger plane, first known as an Army transport plane, and Northeast Airlines had actually leased this plane from the Army just a few weeks earlier.

[125] So the plane is heavy, but the ice is off the wings, And at 6 o 'clock, just before 6 o 'clock, they start to reboard the flight.

[126] It had 90 passengers.

[127] It was piloted by a captain named Alva Marsh and co -pilited by a man named George Dixwell.

[128] There was a flight engineer on board, and there were three flight attendants.

[129] So that's 95 people are on board this plane.

[130] It takes off right after 6 p .m. And all of them are smoking.

[131] And having martinis.

[132] Right?

[133] I mean, let's be honest.

[134] Yeah.

[135] And the plane taxis, LaGuardia, I don't know, I've always thought landing at LaGuardia feels very scary because it feels like a very short runway, the water is all around you, and I always, like, how are we, you kind of circle around the city, and then it's like, are we going to get down?

[136] So I know kind of that LaGuardia little runway.

[137] Yeah.

[138] The plane takes off less than a minute after takeoff.

[139] Flight 823 crashes into a patch of trees.

[140] It's been up in the air so short amount of time that investigators said that the pilot barely had time to scream out grounds coming up when the plane crashes.

[141] Oh, God.

[142] The plane's left wing had been shorn off and the left engine was torn out.

[143] And when the plane hit the ground, it immediately caught fire and the cabin was starting to fill with smoke because of that hole where the engine had been ripped off.

[144] And probably because it just took off, the gas was full, right?

[145] Is that a thing?

[146] Absolutely.

[147] Yeah.

[148] Well, what they say is in plane crashes, they say no flame, no fuel.

[149] So the reason oftentimes that a plane will catch fire is because it has fuel.

[150] And if you run out of fuel and you crash, you usually don't have any fire.

[151] Ah, okay.

[152] There's nothing to burn up, really.

[153] Right, right.

[154] The plane goes down only a three -fourths of a mile from LaGuardia, a minute after takeoff.

[155] And the plane crashes on Rikers Island.

[156] Oh.

[157] Rikers Island is an island, and it's all.

[158] also a prison.

[159] The plane crashes.

[160] Many of the emergency exits on board when the plane crashes are jammed shut.

[161] The flight attendants are trying to direct passengers to any open exits.

[162] Some passengers are trying to pry open jammed windows with axes.

[163] They're trying to go through broken windows.

[164] It means a really horrible scene.

[165] There are reports that passengers were trampling each other to get off the plane.

[166] One man wrote about this, Alvin Moscow, and he said that one woman would bear the imprint of a man's shoe on her back for months after the crash.

[167] Oh my God.

[168] Just horrible scene of chaos.

[169] Yeah.

[170] And it had landed on Rikers Island.

[171] Rikers Island, most people just think sometimes say like Rikers, you know, and they think it's a prison, but it is an island in the East River of New York.

[172] And it was owned by a family called the Rikers until 1884.

[173] And then the city of New York bought it from them.

[174] I think that the city was expanding a lot.

[175] They thought it was going to be kind of an area for trash.

[176] Nothing happened, though, until the 1920s when construction of this building began.

[177] Rikers became 26 buildings with seven cell blocks, room for 2 ,500 or more inmates.

[178] There was an administration building, mess halls, chapels, hospitals, because it had to be self -contained.

[179] I mean, it was a prison, but it had to be in its own world because it was an island.

[180] Today, there's a bridge to the island.

[181] It's called the Rikers Island Bridge.

[182] It was built in 1966, just a few years after the plane crash.

[183] It cost $10 million to build, and a newspaper article from the Daily News that year talked about how it would provide easy access for fire and police and ambulances to Rikers Island.

[184] But before that, there was only ferry access to the island.

[185] That night, it was after six o 'clock, just after six o 'clock, dark, you would assume, in February, freezing cold, snow all over the ground.

[186] There were 28 officers on duty at Rikers.

[187] the deputy warden, a man named James Harrison.

[188] The only way he described the crash was the brightest light.

[189] And he told this Alvin Moscow who wrote about the crash, he said that his biggest fear had always been a plane crash on Rikers because LaGuardia was so close and the runway was precarious.

[190] And he just thought that this might happen someday.

[191] There was one inmate who said that the impact was so great that it shook the prison walls.

[192] It was after dinner time, you'd assume, a lot of the inmates were sitting around playing cards or, I would assume, not in their cells yet because they wouldn't have had to go to bed.

[193] And they talked about how the flames from the crash were so great, but even greater, because they were reflected on the white snow.

[194] And so you could just see this red coming through the small windows of the prison.

[195] When the deputy warden realized that this had been a plane crash, this explosion was a plane crash, he also realized that they were on an island.

[196] and there was no one coming to help.

[197] And so he ordered the inmates to go and help.

[198] He opened the doors and said, we've got to go and help these people.

[199] It was a terrible scene.

[200] A desk officer kind of, I think, said, we can't just open the doors to this prison.

[201] And the warden said, it doesn't matter, we have to help.

[202] So the inmates went out into the freezing cold, no jackets on with some searchlights, and they started pulling people out of the wreckage.

[203] I think that there were inmates that had been assigned, to snow removal, so some of them were kind of on call, but I think it pretty much was all hands on deck.

[204] Yeah.

[205] The inmates went rushing towards the plane, and they started pulling people out into the prison to just get out of the cold.

[206] Some were brought to the infirmary.

[207] Others were brought to the houses of prison chaplains.

[208] This is a lot of people.

[209] The prison reception room was used for triage, and inmates didn't have anything, but they were handing out water and like applying Vaseline to people who had been burned.

[210] Were people really hurt?

[211] I mean, Obviously, it's a plane crash, but people were, a number of people had already died on the plane.

[212] People were on fire.

[213] Horrendous quotes about people trying to get out of this burning capsule and throwing themselves into the snow banks to just try and put the flames out.

[214] There was only one fire engine on the island also.

[215] And one inmate, his name was Donald Lotto, went and got it and drove it up and just started trying to put out the flames as best he could.

[216] could.

[217] And I think there's a lot of accounts of different things that these men did to help the victims of the plane crash.

[218] But there was one passenger.

[219] His name was Kenneth Cronin.

[220] He was in shock.

[221] You know, this had just happened to him.

[222] He remembered an inmate applying Vaseline to his wife's burns on her face.

[223] And she said, how do I look to this inmate?

[224] And he replied, you look fine, just fine.

[225] And I think one of the reasons that Kenneth Cronin was a little out of it was that he had been flying with his wife on the plane and his two sons, a two -year -old and a six -week -old.

[226] And when the plane crashed, it was so hot on the plane.

[227] And things were on fire and people were on fire that this father, Kenneth, had thrown his six -week -old baby out of the plane.

[228] You know, the baby was going to burn.

[229] And the only thing he could do.

[230] And the baby landed in a snowbank.

[231] And then there was all of the chaos of getting out of the plane.

[232] And he was rushed in with his wife.

[233] And he assumed that his baby had died of hypothermia, of exposure.

[234] And it was only two days later that he found out that one inmate had found the little baby the six -week -old and had kept it warm and they were reunited with this baby in the hospital.

[235] And this little baby, Mark, is alive, survived and was interviewed, you know, as an adult and said, if that inmate hadn't saved me, I'd be, I mean, I'd be dead.

[236] Yeah.

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[256] Goodbye.

[257] So there's just a tremendous amount of chaos.

[258] And again, there was little help from the NYPD from any fire department because they were on an island.

[259] An hour after the plane crash happened, ferries from Rikers Island started to bring in survivors.

[260] There isn't much ability to get big equipment to Rikers, and so you couldn't just start shipping over fire trucks and things.

[261] These survivors were treated at the prison by prisoners, by inmates.

[262] and then slowly started to be brought off the island and they would go to hospitals there to receive further care.

[263] The fire burned for two hours in the airplane.

[264] It was said that the plane looked like just you've seen what you'd think a plane would look like after a massive crash.

[265] By 1 a .m., all the survivors were taken to hospitals around the city and 20 people, 20 of the 95 people, died on the plane.

[266] Wow.

[267] At the end of the night, after hours of pulling people out of this bird, burning plane and helping them afterwards, all of the inmates return to their cells.

[268] And none had attempted to escape.

[269] None had done anything, but just try to help for hours.

[270] And then just probably exhausted, walked back into their cells and, you know, locked up.

[271] Wow.

[272] There was a correction officer.

[273] His name is John Howard, and he said, it's a quote.

[274] He said, I'd say all the inmates did more than was called for.

[275] The way the flames were going, you didn't know whether the tanks would blow up while you were that close.

[276] Yeah.

[277] There seemed to be no hesitation, really, from these men who, they just rushed out and they did whatever they could.

[278] I mean, really smart of the warden to make that decision.

[279] But also, like, a real gamble that then, like, kind of what a beautiful payoff, which is he basically said, we've got to do something.

[280] And those inmates agreed.

[281] Yeah, I mean, and it didn't seem for me to the accounts that you read that these were inmates that were saying, no, you go, you know, or doing it because they were directed by their warden.

[282] But rather doing it because they're here.

[283] humans and there were babies burning.

[284] The captain of the flight, Alva Marsh, he'd been with Northeast Airlines for 19 years.

[285] And before this flight, he'd been in two other accidents a few years earlier.

[286] No one had died in those accidents.

[287] One, he was like failing to pay attention as his co -pilot was approaching LaGuardia and the plane crashed into Flushing Bay.

[288] Another time, there was a propeller malfunction while he was flying.

[289] And when he was interviewed after the crash, the Captain, Captain Marsh said, you know, I just, I couldn't get her up.

[290] It was like she had no power.

[291] None of the instruments were showing any power and she wouldn't go up.

[292] And I was moving so fast that, you know, I could feel something was wrong, but I knew we didn't have the lift.

[293] We weren't going to clear the trees.

[294] After the investigations, I'd assume a few weeks later, a month later, the Civil Aeronautics Board, and that was the precursor to the National Transportation Safety Board, which does all of the investigations now.

[295] They determined that the probable cause of the accident was actually the captain's failure to properly monitor and observe his flight instruments and keep control of the aircraft.

[296] And the investigation determined that after the takeoff, the plane had taken a very sharp, 119 -degree turn to the left, and that's what ended up crashing it into Rikers.

[297] And after this, Captain Marsh was assigned to desk duty, I assume, for the rest of his career.

[298] Yeah.

[299] Did they think he was intoxicated?

[300] or he just wasn't paying, who doesn't pay attention when they're flying?

[301] I don't know what the rules.

[302] You know, now it's very strict.

[303] Yeah.

[304] I think it's 18 hours, 12 hours for pilots.

[305] I mean, I know that they're testing all the time, but I would assume in the 70s regulations were much more lax.

[306] Yeah, for sure.

[307] You know, over the years, LaGuardia's been operating for 71 years.

[308] They've been 14 crashes at LaGuardia.

[309] There's been something like 28 crashes at JFK.

[310] And just one month earlier than this, so in January of 1957, a passenger plane in California was taking off for a test flight and slammed mid -air with a fighter jet.

[311] And both of the planes exploded and rained down on a middle school.

[312] So people were like thinking about, you know, when that happens, I mean, we hear about plane crashes in other parts of the world, but it's actually very rare to have plane crashes, of course, here.

[313] And when you hear about them, you think about them for a while because passenger crashes are pretty rare here.

[314] So I can imagine that was kind of fresh in people's minds, this horrific, and then this happens a month later.

[315] Yeah.

[316] So 20 people died in this crash, and many others were burned and injured.

[317] And then, a month later, in March of 1957, the Commissioner of Corrections and the governor of New York commuted the sentences for 46 inmates who had helped rescue the people from this plane crash.

[318] Karen's going to cry.

[319] I was positive.

[320] Well, because I thought the thing, that usually happens, it feels like when this is what you want to be hearing, is it something else like someone got in trouble or they figure something else out that goes the opposite direction as opposed to rewarding heroes for being heroic?

[321] And even then it's like you get, you know, Salisbury steak for dinner.

[322] It's something that's actually not that great.

[323] That idea that that heroism is like basically saying, you did your time.

[324] Yeah.

[325] You sacrificed yourself.

[326] Yeah, and didn't take advantage by trying to escape.

[327] You just helped.

[328] You were just another person helping another person.

[329] Yes.

[330] And selflessly, like, truly to your own risk.

[331] Yeah, 22 were actually freed in March.

[332] And the remaining inmates had their sentences reduced by as much as six months.

[333] So I think depending on how long or the severity of the reason that you were there.

[334] But they were all given recognition for this heroic rescue.

[335] 40 Department of Corrections workers received, you know, old.

[336] awards as well.

[337] And the deputy warden received a medal of honor for him thinking, it doesn't matter, open the doors.

[338] We've got people dying out here.

[339] Yeah.

[340] That was one of the things I was so drawn to in this story was not just that there's a plane crash on Rikers, but that these inmates helped so much, but then there was a reward for them.

[341] Yeah.

[342] They did something good and someone recognized that.

[343] But it's not the only time that inmates have helped in situations.

[344] I was interested in that and so started looking into other times just this past December, December 12th, inmates from a county jail in Kentucky were working at a products factory.

[345] You know, sometimes if you are in lower security, you go out to work as shifts at a different and then come back to the jail.

[346] They were working at a scented candle factory and four tornadoes came up in the area in Kentucky.

[347] I think there were bad tornadoes in Kentucky in December.

[348] The roof collapsed of this candle factory.

[349] It was chaos again.

[350] And the inmates were running in and out just trying to get people out of the collapsed building.

[351] Someone at the candle factory said they were helping.

[352] And to see inmates, because you know they could have used that moment to try to run away or anything, they did not.

[353] They were there.

[354] They were helping us.

[355] And that's something where these men really could have.

[356] They weren't on an island.

[357] They really could have just gone.

[358] But yes.

[359] They help.

[360] They save people in a candle factory.

[361] So it does happen.

[362] You know, I think it probably happens more that's reported.

[363] But I also, you know, thinking about this idea of escaping.

[364] I mean, we like Alcatraz, another famous prison on an island.

[365] Rikers being on an island makes it very difficult for escape attempts to occur.

[366] But people do try to escape from Rikers Island.

[367] The first escape, they think, happened in 1935.

[368] A man named Walter Zell, he was serving a sentence for larceny.

[369] He escaped Rikers through a coal shoot and he dove straight into the East River and he was caught by a lighthouse keeper because he couldn't handle the currents.

[370] And so this lighthouse keeper swept him up a quarter of a mile away and he went right back to jail.

[371] In 1976, seven inmates escaped their jail cells.

[372] They sawed through the bars of the cells and made dummies of clothing to fool the guards.

[373] They are eventually found.

[374] There's stories of people, you know, just trying to sneak out, poses guards and get out.

[375] And because it's an island, it's really actually hard because the minute you get into the water, you've got to be able to swim.

[376] And I don't know many people are strong enough to handle the currents.

[377] In October 1970s, Tenon mates escaped again by pillow and sheet dummies, which is how the famous Alcatraz escape happened.

[378] Yeah, that's what I was going to say is I wonder if they saw escape from Alcatraz and knew that from the movie that that was a way to do it.

[379] Well, that was a really famous.

[380] Have you ever been to Alcatraz to see the dummies with the real hair?

[381] Yeah.

[382] I'm from Northern California.

[383] So the Alcatraz field trip is basically standardized for all, like, I think junior high age kids.

[384] And you go and they put you in solitary confinement for one minute.

[385] Do they close the door?

[386] So it's a real experience?

[387] I believe so.

[388] I can't imagine they do that anymore, but that was.

[389] Yeah, but it was the 70s, you know, or early 80s.

[390] But yeah, it's basically.

[391] Basically, they're like, just so you know, this is what it's like, and they shut the door.

[392] It's just like.

[393] Oh, my God.

[394] That's some scared straight right there.

[395] Yes.

[396] I went to Georgia a few years ago to interview the sister of the men who had never been found who escaped from Alcatraz.

[397] Oh.

[398] And she was this old woman.

[399] I think she was in her 80s.

[400] And she had never given up hope that her brothers were still alive.

[401] And she had paintings that they had painted her and sent her all over her house.

[402] They had never reached out really to her.

[403] but she was convinced that they had shown up for their parents' funeral and stood in the back.

[404] Right.

[405] Love that idea.

[406] Love that idea.

[407] I think they made it.

[408] Yeah, I do too, because you couldn't reach out to your sister.

[409] Like, that's the first place, right, that the cops would look for you.

[410] So they're smart enough to escape from Alcatraz.

[411] They're smart enough not to give themselves up that way that I'm sure people usually get caught.

[412] Right.

[413] I would think.

[414] And still to this day, because that case is an open case.

[415] There is still an official in California who is assigned to continue to search for these two men.

[416] It is an open case.

[417] There are still leads coming in all the time.

[418] Now, I think it would be odd if these men were still alive, just their ages now.

[419] But, yeah, he's there.

[420] He's working on it.

[421] I think he's a little annoyed by it because I think it's to deal with probably a lot of people writing in and saying.

[422] But I don't think that there is a statute of limitations on prison escape.

[423] Right.

[424] I think that if you are searched for until you are found or declared dead, I've never heard of them just stopping.

[425] Well, it's been 20 years good for him, you know.

[426] Right.

[427] He did a good enough job.

[428] He made it.

[429] So they're basically, they have somebody to search to get the confirmation, like that at this point probably it's the confirmation that they're dead as opposed to like an active search.

[430] Do you think?

[431] I can't remember the ages that the men would be.

[432] They would be very old at the this point.

[433] Yeah.

[434] But their sister is still alive or was still alive a couple years ago.

[435] So they would be old men at this point.

[436] But I think he's still, whatever actively searching, I think that that means that he has to follow up on leads when they come in.

[437] And there are still leads that come in all the time because this case is so well known, the Alcatraz Escape case.

[438] Yeah.

[439] Some 20 -year -old's going to put her DNA, you know, in Ancestry .com one day.

[440] And it's going to be like, you're a great uncle is wanted by the police.

[441] Is playing chess in the park with his brother?

[442] And they're both wearing little mustaches.

[443] So no one recognizes.

[444] I mean, because I don't know if you've ever been or seen the San Francisco Bay.

[445] It's freezing cold.

[446] It's like only the fattest seals can survive out there, it seems like.

[447] So the idea that if they did make it, to me, it is like, it's kind of earned freedom because it's super human that they actually were able to swim across the bay.

[448] like that and land somewhere living.

[449] I mean, it takes a lot of courage.

[450] Everyone who's tried to escape from Alcatraz or escape from, I don't know about, Rikers has been caught or in Alcatraz drown.

[451] No one's been able to make the swim.

[452] I've always been interested in, and I guess you have a lot of time if you're in prison, but just the elaborate details that a lot of these prison escapes have to do months and months of chipping away at bars or filing down or making plans, making clothes, making dummies, you know, paper machet heads.

[453] And sometimes it's easy.

[454] You know, we did an episode about a woman who helped a prisoner escape from a prison.

[455] And, you know, she smuggled them out in a dog crate.

[456] So you can do it that way.

[457] Yeah.

[458] And not have to swim.

[459] If you haven't heard that episode of Criminal, it's truly amazing.

[460] I mean, it's wild.

[461] It's truly amazing.

[462] And what a story.

[463] Like, because it's such a nice idea, right?

[464] She was the person that was bringing dogs in for the inmates to have and to basically almost like therapeutically, right?

[465] Yeah, to train these younger dogs, puppies, how to be service dogs, and because an inmate has time, they can really keep this dog with them 24 hours a day and give it a lot of attention.

[466] And I think it happens all over the country.

[467] There are these programs.

[468] And Toby, was the name of the woman, was running this program, and fell in love with an inmate.

[469] Oh, no. And she had never done anything in her life that was bad before.

[470] and she was kind of in a sad marriage and he didn't care about her and this inmate maybe he pretended he did but she needed it so when this idea came up she went for it and they ended up getting caught when I talked to her the way she talks about it it isn't with guilt and it isn't with embarrassment it's rather just I can't believe I did that I can't believe I could have been so stupid what was I thinking in this way that if I asked one of you your reactions to doing something like that I think as normal people, you would say the same thing.

[471] Like, I can't tell you what happened to me. But wow.

[472] Yeah.

[473] She just got herself wrapped up in something that I don't think she ever saw.

[474] Right.

[475] Right.

[476] And she got to kind of talk, like the firsthand aspect of it, I think, kind of floored you because it's one thing to talk about people that do that.

[477] But like, that she actually was there talking about the program, talking about going there and the feeling of helping inmates or like it benefited both sides, basically.

[478] The whole program.

[479] so it was almost around these good feelings.

[480] It wasn't like she was there to, you know, shake her finger at people or whatever.

[481] It was almost like it's rehabilitative.

[482] So then she gets to believe that it's actually working on this prisoner and he's on board.

[483] Yeah, and he's manipulating her in the meantime.

[484] I think for people who just like follow the law and, you know, live their normal lives, don't realize how easy it is to start to believe, you know, have someone convince you that this is a noble thing or a great idea.

[485] and, you know, you go along with it when people are really charming, you know, you believe their bullshit, I guess.

[486] Well, it happened, you know, Dana Mora a couple years ago where the guard smuggled out the two men.

[487] Right.

[488] I followed that story.

[489] Remember, because the men were on the run for weeks, was it?

[490] And in the woods and we were kind of following along real time.

[491] And then it just happened again with the prison guard who ended, you know, that, I mean, women taking these men, I mean, maybe not always being used by these men and risking their lives.

[492] lives.

[493] I mean, it happens.

[494] Right.

[495] Well, and the idea, I think, because it kind of goes back to the first story where those prisoners proved that there is like goodness in everyone and there is that nobility of humankind type idea that these women aren't dumb for believing in that because it's been the scented candle factory worker slash prisoners who it's like, how much more do you want to believe in humankind than hearing a story like, like that.

[496] So it's like, why wouldn't they believe?

[497] Especially if you've got one guy right there telling you that that's what's happening, you know?

[498] Yeah.

[499] And for Rikers, I think Rikers is such a notorious name now.

[500] You know, you hear Rikers Island, you hear Rikers and people think, oh, that's the prison, you know, New York.

[501] I don't think people know that it's a real island or that it's that close to Manhattan.

[502] But in the 50s, the conditions weren't as bad, but Rikers is a miserable place.

[503] Yeah.

[504] You know, since the 1970s, there have been reports about the conditions there that have been overcrowding abuse by officers, terrible living conditions.

[505] In 2021, 15 people died on Rikers because they couldn't get the COVID crisis under control and they were totally understaffed.

[506] I think it's more than five occasions in the past 18 months.

[507] Incarcerated people there were supposedly supposed to be confined or supervised have been allowed to just commit violent acts on other incarcerated people, but just like it's a free -for -all.

[508] It's a really problematic place.

[509] And it's actually, I think, in 2017, New York announced a plan to shut it down, slowly over the next decade, kind of take people out of Rikers.

[510] But the abuse that's gone on at the hands of guards and the overcrowding at Rikers, you'd want to get out of there.

[511] Yeah.

[512] Yeah.

[513] It's not a great place.

[514] It's a pretty hard place to be.

[515] So that's the story of this plane crash that happened that was a terrible plane crash, but also crashed in the most, it's hard to think that it crashed on Rikers Island.

[516] I mean, it could have crashed right.

[517] They are, it could have crashed in the river.

[518] It could have crashed.

[519] I mean, that would, and if that prison warden had not said we have to help, it doesn't matter that these men are supposed to be locked up.

[520] They're humans dying.

[521] Many more probably would have.

[522] Totally.

[523] For sure.

[524] It's a really beautiful story of like the human spirit.

[525] Also, it's the thing of when it all comes down to it, if you're given this extraordinary opportunity to simply help, what would you actually do?

[526] There's a lot of people that would have absolutely stayed in their cell and been like, no thanks.

[527] I'm not going near that.

[528] And there's a nobility and a real, like, a deep down courage that those men, I mean, like the idea that some of them got.

[529] their sentences commuted because people actually recognized what a true sacrifice that was to run to not a burning car, a burning plane, gigantic plane.

[530] I mean, it's just unbelievable.

[531] And also, this is one of those kinds of things.

[532] How have we not heard this story before?

[533] I know.

[534] Never heard of this.

[535] I've never heard it.

[536] Because I thought you were going to say there was a plane crash And it crashed above, I believe it was either Brooklyn or Queens in the 50s.

[537] And people fell from the sky.

[538] Do you have ever heard of that one?

[539] No. I thought you were about to tell that story.

[540] Oh, it's crazy and I don't know it well enough.

[541] I was going to do it at one of our live shows.

[542] And then it was just like, this is totally horrible.

[543] But there was a boy who survived and was like picked up by a family.

[544] But then I think he ended up dying in the hospital.

[545] And as I was reading it, I was just like, this isn't like yours, this story today.

[546] is such the great version of it because I was like oh this is such a awful story and then it's like wait a second this is not the same story in the least and then it's actually an incredibly beautiful story yeah how has this not become a movie yet it's got to star Nicholas Cage of course I don't know if there's been a television you know it kind of feels like a made for TV movie more than like a big screen yeah kind of feels like a movie that would be made in the like late 70s or 80s I don't know why it feels like that time frame of when they would make this type of movie?

[547] We get Tom Selleck, but he grows out a full beard.

[548] So it's the magnateaum mustache goes to a full beard, right?

[549] And then he's in all denim.

[550] He's there because he's just a bank robber.

[551] He's a good guy.

[552] Good guy, bad guy.

[553] It would be really cool to hear about those individual men.

[554] Yeah.

[555] What their backgrounds were.

[556] That's one of the hard things is being able to find someone who can still talk about this.

[557] One of the men who was incarcerated who's still alive and helped or prison guards or there are survivors from the plane crash like mark the six -week -old baby who was left right not left he was saved probably by his father by being thrown into the snowbank but it's really hard to just find someone to tell this story yeah but it's one that we've really wanted to tell because it's one of those stories where you keep it in your pocket and when the conversation gets dull you can just say did you know that there was once a plane crash on rikers island and the you know it's one of those, it doesn't have to be very long, but it's just a little something if the conversation gets boring.

[558] It's something that's actually truly amazing.

[559] Also, now I'm thinking, Phoebe, what if there was a spin -off where from these episodes, people call in or write in and tell you, I am a survivor or I do know survivor, and then you relaunch it for criminal.

[560] Like, it's a criminal workshop.

[561] I would love that.

[562] To get the word out.

[563] Well, if anyone here has knew anyone had a family member that helped with the rescue.

[564] I would, you know, anybody who is a survivor of the crash, I mean, it's such an interesting story.

[565] Yeah.

[566] Okay.

[567] I just put in Rikers Plain Crash in our Gmail and literally one email has been sent to us saying you guys should cover this story.

[568] So that's how little known it is.

[569] That's crazy.

[570] Yeah.

[571] Well, you do have the podcast, Phoebe Reads a Mystery, which I freaking love.

[572] People just want to hear your voice, do anything.

[573] Well, because I've been listening to Phoebe reading Moby Dick because I have a long car ride.

[574] And I was trying to read Moby Dick myself, hard copy.

[575] But it was that kind of thing where I just kept falling.

[576] I would get through three pages and then fall asleep.

[577] And then I was like, oh, this is the perfect solution so I can still hear it.

[578] And then it's Phoebe reading it to me. That's great.

[579] But are you falling asleep as you're hearing me?

[580] Because I've always thought Phoebe reads a mystery is really just like a free sleep app.

[581] You know, yeah.

[582] Taking on Moby Dick, it really was my white whale.

[583] It's intimidating to look at the size of the book and just read it, but reading out loud, I had no idea how long it takes to read something out loud.

[584] I mean, as you know, you know, you read scripts and things, but wow, wow, wow, yeah.

[585] Yeah, and so I just finished Moby Dick, and it felt I finished it and I was waiting for someone to say congratulations.

[586] I was thinking for someone to throw me a little party or give me a little award or something.

[587] It's an undertaking, for sure.

[588] It really felt like a journey, like a voyage.

[589] Like I'd been on the whaling voyage myself, a four -year to the South Pacific.

[590] Yeah.

[591] And it's also, it is a very dense, like, I think that was the other reason I kept falling asleep.

[592] It's, of course, amazing writing.

[593] It's the reason it's a classic.

[594] But it's very dense.

[595] And it's very, like, specific.

[596] So, yeah, you deserve a little trophy.

[597] You deserve your sentence to be commuted for finishing that.

[598] For getting through the 14 chapters about the different parts of whale blubber.

[599] Yes.

[600] And how you burn it down.

[601] Oh, my gosh.

[602] Just the ship description alone at the beginning, yes.

[603] That's right.

[604] Entirely.

[605] I love it.

[606] And then you also have, this is love, and that's a show about whatever love means.

[607] The love show is basically the criminal show.

[608] I mean, there's nothing, because we've taken this wide definition of the word, time.

[609] We've done the same thing with love.

[610] And so a lot of times we'll pitch a story.

[611] And we did this morning.

[612] We were talking and someone said, well, is that for criminal or love?

[613] It could be for both.

[614] I mean, that happens to a lot because the stories are sometimes so interchangeable.

[615] Yeah.

[616] Well, we really appreciate you doing this with us once again.

[617] It's a delight.

[618] It really is so nice to be able to do this with you.

[619] Phoebe, thank you so much.

[620] Thank you.

[621] Anytime you have a story that you come across that you're like, this is for the gals.

[622] come on.

[623] Oh, she already said, she already said she has a bunch, so we're holding her to this entirely.

[624] That's right.

[625] It's so fun to just be able to talk and tell it and have a conversation about it because you just get to say what you want and think about it in real time.

[626] And a lot of times we have scripts and edits and things.

[627] And this is such a pleasure to just be able to come and get to talk to you and tell you the story.

[628] And I hope it was a good one.

[629] Always.

[630] I loved it.

[631] Amazing.

[632] Beautiful.

[633] It was great.

[634] Beautiful.

[635] It was really amazing.

[636] Well, thank you.

[637] both.

[638] Oh, I hope people write in with stories that would be so exciting.

[639] My great -grandfather, that kind of thing, please let us know.

[640] Yes.

[641] Oh, I'd love it.

[642] Thank you, Phoebe Judge.

[643] You're the best.

[644] Thank you, Phoebe.

[645] Thanks for having me on again.

[646] Elvis, do you want a cookie?

[647] This has been an exactly right production.

[648] Our senior producers are Hannah Kyle Crichton and Natalie Wren.

[649] Our producer is Alejandra Keck.

[650] This episode was engineered and mixed by Andrew Eepin.

[651] Email your hometowns and fucking hurrays to My Favorite Murder at gmail .com.

[652] Follow the show on Instagram and Facebook at My Favorite Murder and on Twitter at MyFave Murder.

[653] Goodbye.

[654] Follow My Favorite Murder on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, or wherever you like to listen so you don't miss an episode.

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