Flightless Bird: Chocolate

[0] Just quickly, before we get into today's episode, after this episode, we're taking a break for about a month, because I'm going to New Zealand for a little holiday.

[1] The flightless bird returns.

[2] I'm going to try and record some audio while I'm there.

[3] I always like recording reverse flightless birds.

[4] But yeah, so we will be back in August.

[5] In the meantime, enjoy this episode.

[6] I'm David Farrier, in New Zealand, accidentally marooned in America, and I want to figure out what makes this country tick.

[7] Since I've been in America, I've had to come.

[8] come to terms with America's chocolate.

[9] Wow, Hershey bars, Mr. Goodbar, Kit Katz, Rolos, watch em what call it, Reese's all my favorites, let's go get some more.

[10] Let me be very clear.

[11] American chocolate is a lot different to non -American chocolate, and I'm finding it very hard to make the adjustment.

[12] Putting it simply, to my taste buds, New Zealand chocolate just tastes way better.

[13] Putting it bluntly, American chocolate tastes bad.

[14] I wondered if I was the only one thinking this, considering the North American chocolate market is valued at a whopping $40 billion.

[15] Then I got a message.

[16] It was in my DMs on Instagram.

[17] It said, American chocolate is shit.

[18] The smell of puke when you open a bag of Hershey's kisses, vomit emoji.

[19] I looked at that vomit emoji, and I felt seen.

[20] Here was a random internet user that understood my dilemma.

[21] Why does American chocolate taste like puke?

[22] So, get ready to open a Mars bar, a Snickers, a Hershey's chocolate kiss, because this is the chocolate episode.

[23] Flyness.

[24] Flyless bird touchdown in America.

[25] I'm a flyless bird touchdown in America.

[26] Oh, God.

[27] Are we going to get sued?

[28] No, it's fine.

[29] We're safe.

[30] Big chocolate's going to come for you.

[31] Big chocolate.

[32] Yeah, this is...

[33] I'm a bit worried.

[34] Yeah, as long as we say occasionally alleged, we're going to be fine.

[35] Alleged is the key thing.

[36] You say a statement that could be defamatory.

[37] Oh, what just happened?

[38] Speaking of gross puke...

[39] What just happened?

[40] This water tastes bad.

[41] Or...

[42] I thought you got a hair in your coffee or something.

[43] Ew.

[44] Okay, maybe do a little wash. Do you want me to get your water?

[45] Do you get a water to wash it out?

[46] I thought maybe you got a hair in your coffee or something.

[47] Yeah, it looked like a hair.

[48] We were pulling out.

[49] That's not what it was.

[50] That's how I feel when I taste American chocolate.

[51] Oh, God.

[52] Disgusting.

[53] Okay.

[54] Awful.

[55] Tell me what you, on first taste, you taste vomit?

[56] It tastes off.

[57] Like what?

[58] I need more info.

[59] It tastes off.

[60] I mean, I've been growing up in the land of luxury.

[61] I've been growing up in New Zealand.

[62] If I take a trip to New Zealand, whenever I come back, I will have a suitcase that is just full of New Zealand chocolate.

[63] Yes.

[64] So I've got Wittaker's in there.

[65] That's our main good chocolate right now, I would say.

[66] Cadbury used to be our thing, but they changed their recipe a bit.

[67] Oh.

[68] But once you've tasted New Zealand chocolate, you just don't go back.

[69] But what I find strange is I've occasionally bought you guys New Zealand chocolate.

[70] You have.

[71] I think for you, that's the disgusting chocolate, because you haven't reacted all that well.

[72] Well, listen, it definitely wasn't disgusting.

[73] It was good.

[74] It was very good.

[75] But did I think it was astronomically?

[76] better?

[77] No. Did you think it was better, though?

[78] You're like, this chocolate tastes better than this rancid American stuff I've grown up with.

[79] I really don't remember the last time I've eaten that kind of chocolate.

[80] The Halloween candy chocolate.

[81] You're not eating it.

[82] I haven't eaten that in a long time, but I do love chocolate and I eat a lot of it, but I mainly eat it.

[83] It'll be in a brownie or something.

[84] Well, sure, but even if I eat a bar, it's like a nice bar from Whole Foods.

[85] You're an up market gal.

[86] And I wonder.

[87] Watching into Air One, you're getting a $20 tiny little crumb of chocolate and you're going, you know, I've been eating an Arawan burrito every day for the past two weeks.

[88] It does not surprise me. It's so good.

[89] Good.

[90] I had a smoothie from there and it was really good.

[91] We should do it an Aeroon episode.

[92] We have to.

[93] We must.

[94] I think that's a whole other phenomenon.

[95] Okay.

[96] So I wonder if you did any research on this or if you were just looking at like big chocolate, which I think you were.

[97] I wonder how the artisan chocolate compares to New Zealand chocolate.

[98] And I bet that's way more comparable, which is why when I tasted yours, it didn't taste extremely good.

[99] You're right.

[100] So you haven't been eating the chocolate kisses.

[101] You've been an era one.

[102] You've been dining on the most luxurious chocolates that America has to offer.

[103] So when I come in with my sort of middle of the road, New Zealand chocolate, it tastes sort of similar.

[104] So for you, the Whitaker's is equivalent to our big chocolate.

[105] That's the norm.

[106] Yeah, God, imagine what a really fancy New Zealand chocolate would taste like.

[107] When I go back, I'm going to go back in about a month, and I'm going to look for some high -end shit.

[108] Try to get one $30 plus.

[109] Okay.

[110] Oh, God.

[111] Do you agree with the person that wrote in alleging that when you open a bag of Hershey's chocolate, you were greeted with a smell a little bit like vomit?

[112] Well, this is why you should have brought it Because I've never experienced it I'm an idiot for not bringing props Because we could have opened it That would have been such a good podcast It would have been really good for the show You could have probably been dry retching Because it would have been such an awful smell No, I've had a bajillion in my life And I've never thought that Incredible, okay I haven't either You're American That's why you're so used to this is What it's like you don't notice You know no different In Chicago there's a chocolate factory downtown and you can smell chocolate throughout the entire city.

[113] Oh, heaven.

[114] All the time.

[115] I wonder if that'll smell like vomit to you.

[116] Look, it is a specific problem that's alleged against Hershey's, that it's a particular thing, which is what I get into into the documentary today.

[117] I want to get to the bottom of this.

[118] Okay.

[119] Should we launch in?

[120] Let's launch in.

[121] I'm curious.

[122] I want to know more.

[123] It's a journey.

[124] Because chocolate shouldn't smell like vomit.

[125] Okay, but...

[126] Allegedly.

[127] It's also subjective.

[128] Yeah.

[129] What is your vomit smell like?

[130] Well, look, let's get into the dock and we'll find out.

[131] We won't find out what my vomit tastes like disgusting.

[132] I opened up my Instagram DMs again and read the message that kicked this whole episode off.

[133] I got it about three months ago, so I had to do a lot of scrolling.

[134] It's always nice to hear from listeners of this show, but this message had really struck me. I felt seen.

[135] The smell of puk when you open a bag of Hershey's Kisses vomit emoji.

[136] They had a point.

[137] Hershey's did smell to me like some fresh spew.

[138] Not really, really bad spew, not hot meaty spew, but the kind of lightest spew of a small toddler.

[139] Why?

[140] I went to the Hershey's website and found a list of common inquiries.

[141] Which Hershey's chocolates are vegan?

[142] Where is it made?

[143] How big is a Hershey's bar?

[144] Some of the answers were kind of interesting.

[145] Like the answer to when was the first Hershey's chocolate bar invented?

[146] Well, the first Hershey's milk chocolate bar.

[147] bar was sold in 1900 by Milton S. Hershey.

[148] The classic Hershey's milk chocolate bar has been referred to as the Great American Chocolate Bar.

[149] But in that whole Q &A, there was nothing about the smell of vomit.

[150] In fact, the last question listed was, why does Hershey's chocolate taste so good?

[151] Their answer to that one, Hershey's has a delicious, unique taste because of the farm -fresh milk that's used.

[152] Hershey's milk chocolate is one of the only milk chocolate brands in the world that still uses fresh milk in its production, giving it a distinctive taste.

[153] Fresh milk is the last thing I think about when I taste or smell Hershey's chocolate.

[154] And it was around this time I got an email from a Hershey's insider.

[155] They must have sensed my curiosity through the ether and had gotten in touch.

[156] They were a former Hershey's worker who had a theory about what was going on.

[157] She said she never signed any NDAs, so it was okay to talk.

[158] I can hear you so clearly, where are we?

[159] Where are you?

[160] I'm in New York.

[161] This line is the clearest line I've had in a very long time.

[162] Let's cut to the chase.

[163] You got in touch because you used to work, where?

[164] I used to work at Hershey.

[165] So if you're not familiar, they're one of the biggest manufacturers of chocolate in the United States.

[166] And then Mars is the other one.

[167] So they're like the big two.

[168] Oh, it's like Coca -Cola and Pepsi.

[169] Exactly.

[170] Most of the chocolate bars in America are made by one of the two.

[171] like Kit Kat, Reeses, Hershey, Payday, those are all made by Hershey, and then Snickers, M &Ms, those are all made by Mars.

[172] Mars was founded 113 years ago in 1911, but Hershey's came a whole 17 years earlier in 1894.

[173] And ever since, Hershey's has kept a tight grip on the American Sweet Tooth.

[174] Along the way, it's gobbled up other brands, each deal worth hundreds of millions of dollars.

[175] It bought Dots' home -style pretzels and a deal rumored to be over a billion dollars.

[176] I worked in sales.

[177] My territory was rural Virginia, so I was going into grocery stores and convenience stores in rural Virginia and setting up displays and working with the ordering managers to order more product.

[178] The way she tells it, Mars was always in the firing line, a battle almost as old as America itself.

[179] I mean, there was a lot of drama in the field about the Mars.

[180] Mars salespeople.

[181] So, like, I was encouraged to take Mars product off the shelf and throw it in the garbage and replace it with Hershey product.

[182] Crazy stuff like that.

[183] Seriously?

[184] Yeah.

[185] I don't know if they still do it.

[186] This is back in 2009.

[187] I'm old now, but the Hershey bars have a clear expiration date on them, but the Mars bars don't.

[188] If you look at, like, a Snickers bar or like a bag of M &Ms, they don't have an expiration date on them.

[189] It's like a code, so you need to know what the code means in order to decipher.

[190] And it's not really an expiration.

[191] It's a Best Buy.

[192] So we knew what the code was.

[193] So if I noticed there was a bunch of Mars product on a shelf that was expired or passed its Best Buy date, I would tell them, throw it out, and order more of the Hershey product to replace it.

[194] So it was like the Candy Wars.

[195] I should mention, just to legally protect myself from Flightless Bird, all of this is allegedly, allegedly, allegedly, allegedly.

[196] And with that statement, I'm reminded of what this episode is all.

[197] all about the mystery of the strange taste, the strange odor of Hershey's chocolate.

[198] Tell me what you learned about the flavor of Hershey's and why it's put in the chocolate.

[199] Yes, so basically Milton S. Hershey was the founder of Hershey chocolate, and he, I believe, was one of the first to start making milk chocolate.

[200] And they used milk, obviously, in milk chocolate.

[201] but refrigerated trucks were not invented or of technology of that time.

[202] So by the time the trucks got to the factory, the milk was spoiled.

[203] So they were actually producing milk chocolate with spoiled milk, but no one really knew or noticed.

[204] And then eventually when refrigerated trucks started being used commercially in the United States, the milk wasn't spoiled anymore.

[205] and customers noticed a difference and didn't like the way the chocolate tasted anymore.

[206] So, according to my source, Hershey's did something to make the milk taste spoiled again.

[207] Is it spoiled or spoiled?

[208] I'm going with spoiled.

[209] I believe in the 80s, they developed this flavoring that is an artificial flavor that tastes like spoiled milk.

[210] I consulted some other emails I'd gotten over the course of my investigation, all with allegations of this artificial flavor.

[211] I used to work for Hershey's and learned that Hershey bars and many other brands of chocolate are made with a flavoring to mimic spoiled, Red One.

[212] So just over time, Americans just slowly learned to love this taste of spoiled milk.

[213] Yeah, and I mean, there's a lot of different food items in the US that taste much differently than in other countries, which I'm sure you've experienced it as well.

[214] But something was bugging me. All of this talk of flavoring being added to mimic putrefying milk, it was all just a lead.

[215] a state of mind that was starting to make me feel uneasy.

[216] I didn't want alleged.

[217] I wanted facts.

[218] I did some googling and found an article in the Daily Mail had gone viral years ago claiming that buturic acid is added to Hershey's chocolate, buturic acid which is also found in rancid butter, parmesan cheese, and yes, and vomit.

[219] Now the Daily Mail is definitely not trustworthy and it was a headline that was then repeated by the Huffington Post just last year.

[220] Reading further down in that Huffington Post piece, they had gotten comment from Hershey's, who said there'd been a lot of urban legends and inaccurate and just plain false reporting on the brand's chocolate over the years.

[221] Hershey's then outright said they do not add buturic acid to our chocolate.

[222] What the hell was going on?

[223] There was no denying the smell of spew, the gentle aroma of vomit, but with no added flavouring to cause it, what was happening?

[224] I'd have to dig deeper.

[225] I'd have to talk to someone deep in the world of flavor.

[226] So I know you asked me if I had anyone, you know, any contacts that work in the industry that you could interview.

[227] And I do, but I don't talk to her anymore.

[228] Oh, what happened?

[229] We had a major falling out.

[230] I was learning in the world of American chocolate.

[231] There was drama at nearly every turn.

[232] Well, the reason I mentioned that is because she actually went to the Culinary Institute of America.

[233] and she specialised in confections.

[234] So she actually worked in research and development at Mars while I was working in sales at Hershey.

[235] This sounded like a perfect contact, but I was never going to get it.

[236] What was it over?

[237] A person, a thing, an event?

[238] She basically was throwing herself at every male figure in my life sexually.

[239] And I just could not tolerate it anymore.

[240] Allegedly, all allegedly, of course.

[241] I felt stumped.

[242] I didn't know where to turn next.

[243] All hope was lost.

[244] Stay tuned for more flightless bird.

[245] We'll be right back after a word from our sponsors.

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[285] All these twists and turns.

[286] There's a lot happening.

[287] It's been very clear.

[288] So far, I've discovered nothing is added to mimic the flavor of spoiled milk.

[289] That's a myth that's been going around forever.

[290] I think my insider had gotten on board with that myth and was just recounting something that's been told throughout the ages.

[291] Right.

[292] This idea that something has been added specifically to cause that flavor.

[293] And we know now that's not the truth.

[294] Because it was the butyric acid rumor.

[295] The bituric acid rumor that that was added.

[296] Well, this is interesting because ding, ding, ding this morning before I got here, I was making my tea.

[297] I did not.

[298] But I was making my tea and I make it English style.

[299] Beautiful.

[300] So I add milk.

[301] How do you make a tea as an American?

[302] I'm just curious if it differs to how I'd make it in New Zealand.

[303] Well, I use a kettle now.

[304] Beautiful.

[305] And I let the tea bag steep for about three to five minutes.

[306] minutes.

[307] And I take it out.

[308] And then I add a little milk.

[309] Great.

[310] And then I stir it up.

[311] Yeah, I do it the impatient way, which is like a toddler.

[312] I put the tea bag and I slam it around with a spoon grinding into the sides.

[313] To get it squished out.

[314] You get all to squished out.

[315] Terrible.

[316] Milk in, a bit of sugar.

[317] I'm away.

[318] Yeah.

[319] Terrible way to make tea.

[320] Yeah.

[321] You want it to steed.

[322] Yeah.

[323] Got no patience.

[324] I don't do sugar in it.

[325] But anyway, so when I took out the milk, I always smell it.

[326] It's just a habit.

[327] As soon as you open it, you smell it, you smell it.

[328] You out of the milk and I was like, huh, maybe on the edge.

[329] It was really hard to tell.

[330] Did you have an expiry date on the cadden?

[331] Yes, and I'm not even close.

[332] Okay, miles away.

[333] The weird thing is that I've noticed about my milk lately is the expiration dates much further.

[334] It used to be like you had like a week.

[335] Yeah, so I'm so curious about this.

[336] I feel like I've noticed the same thing as well.

[337] Yeah.

[338] And I don't know what is happening.

[339] I don't know what is happening either.

[340] Are they just stocking where we're shopping with fresher milk?

[341] So at outlasts, like, you know, what we used to.

[342] But you'd think if it was fresher, it would actually be, you'd have a smaller amount of time.

[343] Normally, because there's less, like, chemicals and preservatives.

[344] You're thinking from a chemical perspective.

[345] Milk used to be, like, the expiration day would be, like, a week.

[346] A couple of days away.

[347] Holy shit, I've got to drink this really quickly.

[348] Yes.

[349] So what did you do?

[350] Your little sniff?

[351] It smelled bad.

[352] Yeah, so I did a little sniff.

[353] It was like, oh, God, maybe.

[354] But I think it's fine.

[355] Maybe it's the refrigerator, so I, like, moved it into another room and was smelling.

[356] It was a whole thing.

[357] And I ended up putting it in the tea, mixed it up, and I didn't drink it.

[358] I got too scared.

[359] There's nothing worse than the slightly off taste of a dairy product.

[360] I mean, talk about spew.

[361] Yeah, it's no good.

[362] One of the joys of if you're having oat or almond, all these other milks is the, expiry days, years away.

[363] Yeah, exactly.

[364] That shit can just sit around forever.

[365] I know.

[366] But anyways, this is all very ding dingy because we're talking about spoiled milk.

[367] This is so weird to me because I bet Reese's are top three most consumed candy in America.

[368] It's popular.

[369] It's massive.

[370] So, I mean, that's what I find so fascinating.

[371] Despite this odd smell, let's say it's odd.

[372] That's kind of the word that Hershey's would use.

[373] It's a smell, not a taste or both.

[374] Well, this is always sort of getting to just smell and taste.

[375] That's sort of a linked thing, aren't they?

[376] If you're smelling a bit of vom, then it's going to factor into the taste a little bit.

[377] But you smell it first.

[378] It hits me like a brick in the face when I open a bag.

[379] Yeah, it's a really odd thing.

[380] And I know I'm not going crazy because I have talked to so many people that have this exact same reaction.

[381] Huh.

[382] But yeah, so many rumors.

[383] I really love that Hershey's is kind of vague in the way they talk about it.

[384] But definitely no additive.

[385] that's a myth that we can throw out.

[386] Interesting.

[387] So, look, I'm going to march on with my journey.

[388] Okay.

[389] We've got to get to the bottom of where this vom comes from.

[390] As you'll recall from part one, I'd had a contact dangled in front of me, someone who'd worked in the world of chocolate R &D at Hershey's biggest competitor, Mars.

[391] But, as it tends to do sometimes, sex had gotten in the way.

[392] What was it over?

[393] A person, a thing, an event?

[394] She basically was throwing herself at every male figure.

[395] you're in my life sexually, and I just could not tolerate it anymore.

[396] But I realized all hope was not lost.

[397] To get to the bottom of this Hershey's mystery, I'd simply need to find another expert in flavor.

[398] It didn't matter if they didn't work for Hershey's or Mars.

[399] In fact, the answers would be more free of bias if they didn't.

[400] I'm Barb Stuckey.

[401] I'm the chief innovation and marketing officer at Mattson, and we are a Silicon Valley -based food and beverage innovation firm.

[402] We work with clients ranging from a guy with an idea to some of the world's largest global companies.

[403] And we help them come up with new product ideas and then we formulate the products and commercialize them.

[404] Barb Stucky has also written an entire book about flavor and food called taste, surprising stories and science about why food tastes good.

[405] As I say this, I've just ordered it on Amazon and I can't wait to read it.

[406] I ended up there?

[407] It's a long story, but I was kind of raised in a Chinese restaurant.

[408] So years and years ago, because I'm quite old now, I hung out in my friend Stacey Chen's parents' Chinese restaurant and I just became obsessed with food at a very, very early age.

[409] Barb was hired at Mattson 27 years ago, a job she threw herself into with reckless abandon.

[410] I wanted to teach myself everything there was to know about taste and flavor and all the senses.

[411] People think so much about what they enjoy.

[412] They know what foods they like.

[413] They know what flavors they like.

[414] But I think it's very rare for people to think about why they like that thing or how that flavor got to be what it is, right?

[415] That is so true.

[416] And when I'm teaching my fundamentals of taste class, I like to say that when people eat something and they say they either like it or don't like it, That is judgment and it has no role in what we do at Mattson when we're being professional tasters because what we're trying to do is really think diagnostically about what we're experiencing using all five of our senses.

[417] And from that, then we can make decisions on how to make it better.

[418] The judgment of I like it, I don't, it's disgusting, it's great.

[419] That doesn't really help when you're developing a food.

[420] So yeah, people don't spend a lot of time thinking about it.

[421] I wish they spent more.

[422] What do you think is one of the biggest misconceptions that people have about taste?

[423] Well, I think people think about taste as something that happens on their tongue.

[424] And that is technically true.

[425] It also happens throughout your entire cavity inside your mouth, the back of your throat, but it's not just taste that gives us our experience of food.

[426] It's all the other senses together.

[427] So when we put food in our mouth, we also experience smell and we also experience texture.

[428] And you can't separate those things.

[429] So that concept of taste, using your taste sense, aroma using your smell sense, and texture using your feeling sense, those three things come together to form what we call flavor.

[430] And flavor is very different than each one of those senses.

[431] I actually got really distracted in this interview, and we just talked for ages about her job and what she does.

[432] I sort of pictured all the foods I liked, the candy I enjoyed, the chips, the ice cream, and got to thinking about how it ended up so tasty.

[433] It's largely thanks to people like Barb.

[434] When we're in the lab, creating things, we also talk about layers of flavor and layering flavor on so that you don't have something that's really one -dimensional.

[435] And the more complicated and more dimensions and more layers and more balance, the more you get to something that is really, really craveable.

[436] And that can be in categories from soft, to beverage, to chocolate and everything.

[437] I mean, even a dish you get at a restaurant, they've thought really deeply about how those ingredients come together to create this multi -sensory experience that has layers and layers, and it comes to you over time.

[438] I wondered about who taste -tested new products.

[439] She said it depends on the size of the company.

[440] A giant company like General Mills or Heinz might get 150 consumers to try a thing at various stages.

[441] It might be in a controlled setting around a boardroom table, or some testers might take it home to try it with their family.

[442] A smaller company, well, it might just be the boss that tastes it and a couple of their friends.

[443] She said taste buds also vary depending on where in America you live.

[444] Generally, what you want to do is testing in different market areas because there are subtle nuances between them.

[445] In the southeast, for example, they're much more tolerant of sweetness, and you could serve something there, and then go up to Seattle, and it would bomb because it's too sweet.

[446] So it does vary.

[447] We talked and we talked, but it was time to get back to my driving central pressing question.

[448] Do you have any insight into this whole Hershey's theory that I keep hearing about?

[449] Well, first of all, let me confess.

[450] I grew up in Northern Maryland, which is just south of Hershey, Pennsylvania.

[451] So I spent my childhood going to Hershey Park, and the entire city smells like Hershey Chocolate.

[452] So it's the chocolate I grew up with, so for me it's very comforting.

[453] But yes, I understand, because I do think very diagnostically and technically about flavor, I do understand that there is a very specific flavor in it.

[454] What she says next is familiar, a theory I'd heard before.

[455] That comes from butyric acid, which is something that comes from the milk, because most of Hershey's chocolate is milk chocolate.

[456] So what you get in a Hershey's milk chocolate is you get the cocoa, the sugar, which you get in other chocolates, but you get a spoiled milk kind of experience.

[457] And you're right to say vomiting.

[458] And this is a very, very technical descriptor.

[459] So baby vomit, baby spit up.

[460] That is often used to describe that butyric acid flavor, which some people call it goatey or animalistic, and it's very pronounced in Hershey.

[461] Why in God's name would they inject that particular flavor?

[462] Because everything you've just described to me, it doesn't sound great.

[463] Her answer?

[464] Well, I've been thinking about this a lot, and I think it's probably as close to the truth as we're ever going to get.

[465] Well, I don't think they injected it.

[466] I think that they kind of cultivated it, if you will.

[467] If you think about it, it's not that different than making yogurt out of milk.

[468] It's just spoiling it a little.

[469] So fermenting it a little.

[470] And that gives you a unique profile for sure.

[471] It's very ownable.

[472] It's very recognizable.

[473] You can close your eyes and somebody can put a little Hershey's kiss in your mouth and you know right away, right away that it's Hershey's.

[474] Yeah, because you had a bit of vomit in your mouth.

[475] Yeah.

[476] No chunks, though, hopefully.

[477] To repeat, her theory is that this isn't some flavor that's added, as per the daily mails allegations, rather it's just built into the process of making the chocolate.

[478] It comes from the fats and the milk.

[479] The story goes that it was done to create a signature flavor, somewhere short of yogurt and sour cream, and you get a little bit of that fermenty flavor.

[480] And she makes it clear that this signature flavor, is still around today because Hershey's, and therefore America, they like this flavor, they like this smell.

[481] It was the plan all along.

[482] Well, maybe not quite the plan.

[483] I'm not sure that that's the whole truth, to be honest.

[484] I have my own belief that usually things like this in the food world happen because something went wrong or something went right in a way that nobody really understood.

[485] And this is probably about someone who came over from Europe and was making chocolate in a new place with new milk and new cocoa and they just stumbled upon something that seemed to be different and ownable.

[486] Maybe that's what this all comes down to.

[487] Like so many things in life, good and bad, we sort of just stumble onto them.

[488] With my questions mostly answered, I wondered what decades in the food and flavor industry had taught Barb.

[489] And it turns out she's less concerned about the flavors of food, including the gentle hint of baby vomit, and more about how we're eating food.

[490] Because really, who cares about the flavor if we're not even taking the time to truly savor it?

[491] My takeaway is that everyone is going to eat food.

[492] And normally we're just shoveling it in, throwing it down our gullet.

[493] And if you're going to eat it anyway, don't you want to experience more of what it's bringing to you?

[494] more of the sensory experience.

[495] So what I wish is that people would slow down and appreciate every bite by really thinking about it, thinking about how it was made, who made it, where it came from, why I like this or why I don't like this, and what is it giving me, who sacrificed for this.

[496] I feel like we'd be more in tune with our food, and we just get more sensory pleasure out of it.

[497] and with no additional calories.

[498] Stay tuned for more flightless bird.

[499] We'll be right back after a word from our sponsors.

[500] This episode of Flightless Bird is brought to you by booking .com, booking dot year.

[501] It's finally time for summer travel, and I am pumped because I like traveling.

[502] I like traveling for myself, and I like traveling for this show.

[503] Yes, it is so fun.

[504] I do get very excited about summer travel.

[505] Which is your favorite place to travel to in America that's not going home?

[506] Like, where would you?

[507] New York.

[508] New York.

[509] I think I am going to go back in the summer.

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[519] support for flightless bird comes from quince now whenever i'm gearing up from my next trip somewhere for flightless bird deciding what to bring is always so stressful mainly because i only like to take carry on and so i have to like get my stuff into one tiny little bag because i don't want to check anything in the clothes i have either don't fit they're worn out or don't match but then i discovered quince it's now my go -to for high -quality vacation essentials i'll be packing for any trips coming up.

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[524] I love them so much.

[525] I need to get on those because, uh, yeah, I've now heard about these and noted.

[526] Noted, noted, noted.

[527] Especially when you go back to New Zealand, because you've got to fit a lot of stuff.

[528] This New Zealand trip is going to be very stressful.

[529] I'm going to get those cubes.

[530] Also, all quince items are priced 50 to 80 % less than similar.

[531] brands and look you might not be an expert at maths but that is pretty darn good and they also work with factories that use safe ethical and responsible manufacturing practices and premium fabrics and finishes and that i really love so pack your bags with high quality essentials from quince go to quince .com slash bird for free shipping on your order and 365 day returns that's q you i ncee dot com slash bird to get free shipping and 365 day returns quince dot com slash bird i loved her so much she was so smart she was so smart that book taste literally just arrived this morning i'd hope to have read it before we were recording up here but i'm going to read it sounds good yes she's smart okay wow so so many theories and look just quickly i think it's my theory Hershey's secretly loves all this.

[532] Because this conversation, we're not the first to have it.

[533] If you Google this, it's everywhere.

[534] And Hershey's never gives a really clear answer.

[535] They're always a little bit vague.

[536] Well, of course.

[537] And this all kind of like keeps popping up in a really fun way.

[538] Well, do you like sour cream?

[539] Love sour cream.

[540] And do you like yogurt?

[541] I guzzle down yogurt.

[542] You do?

[543] So you do like a fermented taste.

[544] I love it.

[545] Give me fermented everything.

[546] but not in my chock.

[547] Yeah.

[548] I like my chock just to be sugary and cocoay, no fermentation.

[549] That's just me, but other people, and obviously a lot of Americans, disagree.

[550] Or we just are used to that.

[551] Yeah, that's what it is.

[552] That's what it is.

[553] That's what it is.

[554] They like to call it, which I really love this.

[555] That's where they put it.

[556] I should also know I did reach out to Hershey's for comment.

[557] I gave them a deadline.

[558] I said this is what the episode talks about.

[559] I ran past them what they had already told to the Huff Post last year.

[560] and just zilch, nothing.

[561] Okay.

[562] If Hershey's wants to get in touch, please reach out because I want to hear from you.

[563] Yeah.

[564] I mean, I think sort of what we got down to was they have a process of curating their chocolate.

[565] Yeah.

[566] And in it, there is something they do specifically, not the eturic acid, but something in the way they're processing the milk that is creating that taste.

[567] Completely.

[568] Yeah, nothing is being added separately to be like, oh, we've got to add this flavor.

[569] It just happens naturally in the process.

[570] And around that has come up all that other law we heard, like, back in the day, they didn't have refrigerated trucks and all that stuff.

[571] That's just a theory.

[572] It's all theories we don't know.

[573] Yeah.

[574] But also, I kind of like that they use real milk.

[575] Oh, it's great.

[576] I'm kind of surprised.

[577] I would think with a big company like that, you would not use a real product.

[578] You'd use some sort of powder or something.

[579] It's the American way, right?

[580] Yeah.

[581] I also love the idea that there's, I never really thought about.

[582] the chocolate wars between those two giant companies.

[583] Also love this.

[584] That could be a movie.

[585] I mean, it's all Netflix doing at the moment.

[586] It's just making like how these got made things.

[587] Yes.

[588] But yeah, I like there's a chocolate war going on.

[589] I like the whole towns in America and areas of towns that just stink of chocolate.

[590] Oh, I want to live there.

[591] I'm jealous of you, Rob.

[592] It was pretty great to wake up in the morning and just smell chocolate throughout the city.

[593] Oh, my God.

[594] Heaven.

[595] Do you think the rates of diabetes in that area would be higher?

[596] Because if you wake up, yeah, and you're smelling sugar, I assume something happens psychologically where you start craving sugar more than others.

[597] I wouldn't be able to deal with it.

[598] I mean, I eat so much sweet stuff.

[599] I've stopped myself buying chocolate and cookies and stuff at the supermarket because I've got no off switch.

[600] You know this about me. I've eaten stuff that I mean to bring into you sometimes because I just get greedy and want to eat it.

[601] The donuts, you keep eating them before you bring them to people.

[602] I also want to admit that I felt a bit guilty when she was saying at the end about savoring food because I'm one of those people, if I could just guzzle my food up through a straw, I would.

[603] Really?

[604] Yeah, like we have a thing in New Zealand called Complan, which is, it's marketed as like, you can live on this.

[605] This powder has everything you need.

[606] We have something similar.

[607] Yeah, they're everywhere, right?

[608] These, like, drinks.

[609] Chocolate Complan in New Zealand, my death row meal would probably be.

[610] be a fresh comp plan and a straw, and I would just slurp that back.

[611] I even threw a stage when I was about 13.

[612] After school, it was just comp plan down my gullet.

[613] My point is, I don't appreciate taking my time with food, which is I think the opposite to both Rob and yourself, because especially like an ally, people love that process.

[614] I don't have that sophistication.

[615] But you like food, right?

[616] Yeah, I like eating.

[617] I don't like chewing that much.

[618] Like, I don't love it.

[619] And to be honest, sometimes you get dinner fatigue in this city, especially, because people are always going out, which is nice.

[620] Like, people want to go and eat and be social.

[621] Sometimes I'm like, I'm fuck, I'm sick of sitting around a table waiting for like the entrees, the main, the dessert.

[622] Can we get the check?

[623] That feeling in America, you've been sitting for four hours at a dinner.

[624] You're fucking exhausted.

[625] You want to go home.

[626] Wow.

[627] So, like, bring me the check.

[628] In Europe, It's times 12.

[629] The whole point is when you go to dinner is to be there for a long time.

[630] Yeah.

[631] They don't bring the check fast.

[632] They're not trying to turn tables.

[633] In America, it's much faster, yeah.

[634] Oh, my God.

[635] Rob, you had your mouth open there.

[636] I've taken you to enough nice dinners.

[637] Can you not savor the food differently when it's that?

[638] I try.

[639] And, like, I see, because it's like, I feel like when you invite me to a dinner, it's like that feeling when I try and show someone a movie I love, I'm sitting there and I'm just.

[640] just hoping they love it.

[641] I'm learning slowly, but in the back of my mind, I have to be honest Rob, sometimes when I'm sitting in a meal, I'm like, I could have done this in three minutes if it was comp plan.

[642] I could have slurped it back.

[643] I'd be full.

[644] Well, you're missing the point.

[645] Right.

[646] That's not the point.

[647] The point isn't the food.

[648] It's the experience and the people and the, you just don't want to talk to your friends.

[649] Maybe sometimes I'm antisocial.

[650] It's an element of that, but it's also, I don't know, the whole savoring food thing.

[651] I think is a little bit lost to me sometimes.

[652] Yeah, that's okay.

[653] At least you know it about yourself and you can talk to your therapist about it.

[654] When I come back from New Zealand, I'm going to bring fancy chocolate for you both.

[655] And I'm going to bring a big box of comp plan.

[656] Ew, that's unnecessary.

[657] Maybe for you, you can do that.

[658] That's unnecessary.

[659] Is it marketed as a weight loss?

[660] No, it's not weight loss.

[661] My memory of comp plan is you can live on this shit.

[662] Don't worry about eating.

[663] Have combat.

[664] Like, Soylent was the thing here, right, that they went through.

[665] That was like a big thing here for a while, right?

[666] We had Slim Fast is exactly what it sounds like.

[667] Yeah, Slim Fast.

[668] It drinks, it shakes.

[669] Oh, my God.

[670] But Slim Fast is marketed as a weight loss.

[671] Yeah, you drink this instead of having a meal.

[672] Yeah.

[673] And I just say for the record, I definitely don't endorse the Compan Life.

[674] We should be eating whole foods all the rest.

[675] We absolutely should be.

[676] I'm just saying I so easily swing in.

[677] that terrible direction if left my own devices.

[678] Because you just want to be efficient.

[679] Kind of.

[680] It's a bit like the board game thing where I get impatient with rules we explained.

[681] I think it's impatience.

[682] If there's toast in the toaster, I'm always popping it up early to see if it's done.

[683] Oh my God.

[684] Maybe you do have ADHD.

[685] Oh, no, I do.

[686] I've been diagnosed.

[687] You did get diagnosed?

[688] Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

[689] You went to a clinic and went through all these tests.

[690] What do they ask?

[691] Just a lot of questions about your.

[692] day and often to do with like your work and your personal life and task completion and how you feel emotionally about different things.

[693] So many questions.

[694] I should add that here in Los Angeles specifically it is so easy to get diagnosed.

[695] I'd say almost too easy.

[696] In New Zealand it's the opposite where there are huge waiting cues.

[697] It's so expensive to get a diagnosis.

[698] So there'll be a ton of people in New Zealand that have ADHD and can't get in front of someone to get any kind of drugs.

[699] So yeah, I'm figuring out.

[700] I'm experimenting with medications now.

[701] I've tried a second one.

[702] It's a matter of getting that balance of the focus.

[703] Yeah.

[704] But not too, I guess, intense would be the word.

[705] Right.

[706] But yeah, I'm figuring that out.

[707] But yeah, that toast is being popped up.

[708] That makes sense.

[709] There's like an efficiency of timing and impatience.

[710] Yeah.

[711] I just get a bit agitated easily by waiting, I think.

[712] There might just be a shitty personality as well.

[713] No, oh, no. Everyone's different, but I do love to savor a meal.

[714] Yeah.

[715] It's my favorite thing, really.

[716] Yeah, well, maybe savor a Hershey's chocolate kiss next time you get a backup.

[717] Maybe when you come back and you bring the New Zealand chocolate, we'll do a blind taste test.

[718] Taste test.

[719] Yes.

[720] With fancy American.

[721] Fancy American, New Zealand.

[722] Fancy New Zealand.

[723] And big chocolate American.

[724] Really, really good.

[725] I love this so much.

[726] Okay, we're done.

[727] That's perfect.

[728] I reckon when we do that, the Hershey's difference, that unique sort of vibe will be...

[729] We'll stick out.

[730] I had a period of maybe like six weeks when I was 13 where I was fully addicted to Hershey's kisses.

[731] Oh, right.

[732] I just like had to have one in my mouth at all times.

[733] Oh, incredible.

[734] Yeah.

[735] There are sighs where it feels like it's not too.

[736] much, right?

[737] It's just a little thing.

[738] And so you keep kind of having them.

[739] And you could kind of let it dissolve, a little bit of chewing it.

[740] It became an obsession.

[741] I think I had that same phase, too.

[742] I mean, sugar is addictive, right?

[743] Like, that's just straight up true.

[744] So I'm sure after a few days of me just being like, oh, I'm eating a bunch of these, then I, like, could not stop.

[745] Yeah.

[746] I sort of missed the marketing of the Hershey's Kiss.

[747] Is it like...

[748] Very love base Valentine's Day.

[749] It is Valentine's -y.

[750] Yes.

[751] Like, this.

[752] This is a romantic treat for a partner kind of a deal.

[753] Even though it looks like a small turd, which is very ironic.

[754] Allegedly.

[755] It's allegedly looks like a poo emoji.

[756] To me, it looks like a small turd.

[757] What's the deal with the wrapping?

[758] There's a little thing at the top that you pull, and that pulls the wrapping off?

[759] Yeah.

[760] Yeah.

[761] Like America, it's so good.

[762] Yeah, the Hershey's Kiss.

[763] I am a big fan of the Reese's piece by the cup.

[764] I like a peanut buttery thing Or the cup Oh the big cup I like that big peanut buttery center So it doesn't bother you the taste The peanut butter overpowers The baby bomb vibes And so I'm guzzling that shit up But again I can't buy that Because I will just eat any chocolate in front of me I ate at all Would you eat a bunch of Hershey's kisses?

[765] You would eat that even though that repulses you?

[766] I can do it I'm just not happy about it Wow Calvin's been sneaking chocolate lately, too.

[767] Has he?

[768] Like yesterday, he went in to get changed into shorts and ate chocolate and brushed his teeth and came back outside.

[769] Do you caught him?

[770] Natalie caught him, yeah.

[771] Just chocolate all over his face.

[772] I love it because kids can't quite cover it up.

[773] He brushed his teeth to cover it up.

[774] Yeah, and then she found a Milky Way in his bed the night before.

[775] Oh.

[776] Wait, where is he getting it?

[777] We've got like a pantry drawer that's got his, like, candy that he gets on the weekend.

[778] Okay, so how did he deal with it when you.

[779] raise it.

[780] Did he go into denial?

[781] No, he admitted it.

[782] He knew he was caught.

[783] And did he cry?

[784] No, he didn't cry.

[785] We just had to tell him that he can't do that.

[786] Wow.

[787] I love a wing kids, there's so many studies around it, but when they find out that they can lie and that they can change the truth because it just opens up this whole new world.

[788] Well, yeah, I can't eat that chocolate and I can just say I didn't.

[789] And no one will know and I can keep doing.

[790] And brush my teeth.

[791] Yeah.

[792] That was smart.

[793] Yeah.

[794] It was.

[795] Really, really, really smart.

[796] Yeah, there's a real pushing of the boundaries that happen.

[797] You forget as kids.

[798] That's the point of being a kid is understanding where the boundaries are.

[799] I do wish we could go back in time to our first lie.

[800] Oh, my God.

[801] I wonder what it was.

[802] Because it would have been this hugely exciting thing to try out.

[803] It's the first time you start to bend reality.

[804] I can just create my own version and that's great because I can eat chocolate all the time.

[805] Oh.

[806] My first lie would have been so lame.

[807] All of them are.

[808] If you're smart.

[809] Real badass.

[810] Yeah, I killed my system.

[811] Your probably had something to do with your tunnel.

[812] It would have been the tunnel.

[813] Yeah.

[814] Have you been digging in the backyard again?

[815] Yeah.

[816] I got to it all over you.

[817] It's like, no, I haven't been digging.

[818] No, I didn't.

[819] Oh, my tunnel.

[820] You miss it.

[821] Yeah, it was like a comfort thing.

[822] It was like just being in a little enclosed space, you know?

[823] It's like I like a weighted blanket.

[824] Yeah.

[825] Yeah.

[826] That's ADHD.

[827] Yeah, it probably is.

[828] I mean, it probably is.

[829] All these different things, yeah.

[830] Did you keep chocolate in your tunnel?

[831] No, there was no food in there.

[832] That's good.

[833] Because the mice and stuff would find it.

[834] Exactly.

[835] Yeah, I didn't want a tunnel full of mice.

[836] It was like, it was a clean tunnel.

[837] Oh, God.

[838] Well, this was fun.

[839] This was very interesting.

[840] TBD and what's the other acronym?

[841] TBC.

[842] TBCC.

[843] To be continued with our taste.

[844] taste test, yeah.

[845] And more American, this American, same?

[846] I think we're all more American.

[847] We'll learn something.

[848] Yeah, big time.

[849] Okay, good.

[850] Congratulations.

[851] Bye.