The Diary Of A CEO with Steven Bartlett XX
[0] I couldn't scream loud enough.
[1] There's nothing I could do to make it go away or to make them stop.
[2] I didn't...
[3] Are you okay talking about this?
[4] Um...
[5] Can we take a break?
[6] Mia Khalifa.
[7] Mia Khalifa.
[8] Mia Khalifa.
[9] I'm Sarah.
[10] I'm Sarah fucking Joe.
[11] Sarah Joe.
[12] The former adult film star...
[13] Now business owner and social media activists.
[14] With over 50 million followers.
[15] Where should this story start?
[16] Through a lot of conflict in Lebanon, and then I moved to America, and I was bullied for being Middle Eastern.
[17] It was around the time of 9 -11.
[18] That was pretty difficult.
[19] Made a lot of choices that I can't take back.
[20] Your husband, when you're 18 years old, is encouraging you towards the adult entertainment industry.
[21] What did they stand to gain from that?
[22] Fetishization.
[23] I fucked up because I signed a contract that says in perpetuity on it.
[24] Do you know how dangerous and predatory that is?
[25] When was your anxiety at its highest?
[26] The company going after me publicly.
[27] The major production companies prey on vulnerable young women.
[28] Didn't shower, didn't brush my teeth, didn't eat, didn't leave my bed.
[29] It's following me for the rest of my life.
[30] But I am not the sum of the things I've been through or the adversities I've faced.
[31] For people that are really struggling, how did you get out of that phase?
[32] Where should this story start?
[33] Where does your story start?
[34] up.
[35] What is the most sort of pertinent moment that you recall from your memory that is shaped the woman that is sat in front of me today?
[36] It honestly feels like the last year or two.
[37] That's that's where my life started and where I should start because the woman that's in front of you right now has been a work in progress and is still a work in progress.
[38] And I feel like I've been my like my most authentic and purest form of myself in the past year or two.
[39] Like the closer to today we get, the more secure I feel in who I am and who that person is.
[40] But obviously there was a lot of other things that happened to get me to this point.
[41] But yeah, to answer that question, like a year or two.
[42] Let's start at the end then, which is today.
[43] Yeah.
[44] Why?
[45] Why the closer we are to today, the more authentic you feel to yourself?
[46] Why?
[47] I'm, I'm, I I'm going after the things I actually want and I'm growing into my confidence and the self -assurance that I've gained from from doing the things I love and accomplishing my goals has formed who I am and it feels really good and it feels very validating and it's just it's never clicked before and they always say like oh the confidence is the key to everything confidence will unlock everything for you and I never really understood that because it's like okay where the fuck does the confidence come from how do you just simply get confident.
[48] And I have grown to realize that confidence comes from just accomplishing things that you want to accomplish and being proud of yourself.
[49] And that pride makes you feel confident.
[50] Like I feel confident even when I mess up now.
[51] Whereas if I messed up five, six, ten years ago, it would send me into a pit of shame, a really unhealthy, just downward spiral that would get me nowhere.
[52] Did you ever imagine being here?
[53] Did you ever imagine being in the state you currently are today, happiness, confidence, et cetera, et cetera?
[54] And I don't want to put words in your mouth there in terms of the word happiness, but the place you are today in the recent, over the last 10 years, did you imagine you would get to this point Or did this seem unimaginable?
[55] It seemed unimaginable for a while, but my mental health was also not as strong as it is today.
[56] There was a lot of periods in my life where I couldn't see past 48 hours, let alone 10 years.
[57] It was very day -to -day for a while.
[58] And I think that's why I'm so confident.
[59] Because right now, if you ask me what I can see in 10 years, I feel like I can answer that.
[60] I know what I want.
[61] I know what my goals are and what I want to accomplish.
[62] So, yeah.
[63] Even in interviews five years ago when they would ask me, where do you see yourself in five years?
[64] I would always say, I have no fucking clue.
[65] I don't know where I see myself next week.
[66] And what changed?
[67] Taking risks, honestly.
[68] Just taking a few risks here and there and seeing them play out for the better and learning from my mistakes and learning what I want and saying no to a lot of things to get to what I want, like job opportunities and things that didn't really align with what I thought I wanted in a year or two or five years or even 10 years as like my confidence started to grow and I started to actually see life plans for myself.
[69] Taking taking risks and walking away from those risks, either having them play out for the better or um learning from the mistakes and learning oh this didn't work this is what i need to do next time oh this didn't work i crossed my own i i i crossed a boundary of mine and now i don't feel good now i know this is past where i should be pushing myself um a lot of trial and error confidence confidence is a through line throughout your story um take me back to your earliest memories of lacking in confidence.
[70] Yeah.
[71] And where, because, you know, I came to this country from Botswana and Africa when I was a young, young boy.
[72] And I struggled, I think we both struggled with being accepted by the culture we had arrived in.
[73] Me and Plymouth, only black kid, curly hair, trying to figure out why my hair's not straight, relaxing it chemically all the time.
[74] Why were there only black family in this all -white school, et cetera, et cetera.
[75] And then that battle with like the lack of enoughness.
[76] not feeling like I was enough and what I did to try and make myself feel like I was enough.
[77] But take me back to your story at the earliest moment where you struggled with not feeling like you were enough or confident enough.
[78] I mean, it's not even coming to America.
[79] It's being in Lebanon.
[80] There was colorism there.
[81] I was the darkest one in my family.
[82] There was colorism at the school that I was at.
[83] I felt like a bit of an outsider because I was darker than what the beauty standard for a Lebanese girl is, which is light hair, light skin, light her skin, all of undertones, dark hair, green eyes.
[84] Like that's the epitome of a beautiful woman in Lebanon.
[85] And then I moved to America and that just got, it went to the extreme side of that.
[86] I was definitely one of the darkest kids.
[87] I was bullied for being Middle Eastern.
[88] It was around the time of 9 -11.
[89] That was pretty difficult, especially since it was in Washington, D .C. in Washington, D .C. was heavily impacted by 9 -11.
[90] The Pentagon was hit.
[91] New York is not that far from us.
[92] It's about four hours.
[93] Like so many people in my school either had family and parents that worked at the Pentagon.
[94] It was a lot of bullying that then turned into internalized racism.
[95] And all I wanted to do from then forward, like you said, you wanted to relax your hair.
[96] You wanted to, you wanted to assimilate and fit in.
[97] And I also wanted the same thing.
[98] And I just held that in and it turned into internalized racism.
[99] How did that go for, because I often reflect and I'm, I think it's taken me time to look back in hindsight and realize what I was feeling versus in the moment you're kind of just in a state of like defense.
[100] It's like how do I get through today?
[101] How do I get these people to like me versus, you know, and I look back and think, no man, you had so much shame.
[102] Like you were carrying around shame and insecurity.
[103] how did that girl at that time so you how are you at this point seven 10 11 um 8 9 8 9 okay and how how were you aware of your feelings i guess is the question yeah yeah yeah very much so i think i think yeah i've always been an introvert and um very aware of of what i was going through and angsty and even like going into my teen years.
[104] I've always been aware of the fact that I, what I was feeling is shame or what I was feeling is, I'm not feeling like I'm enough.
[105] I feel like, yes, I've always been aware of that feeling.
[106] There was also confusion with it, but I think self -awareness has been.
[107] prevalent the whole time what was your relationship like with yourself in those teen years i was very hard on myself um i was very angry at myself for not fitting in and for not being a certain way and um yeah just i did not like myself i didn't like the reflection in the mirror and me not liking the reflection in the mirror obviously affected my my self -esteem, everything.
[108] So in turn, I also didn't like the choices that I was making, which made me not only hate the reflection, but hate the person that I was with at the end of the day.
[109] The choices you're making.
[110] Yeah.
[111] I think insecurity leads you to, leads you to do things for validation that you otherwise wouldn't if you were securing yourself or if you respected yourself or if you loved yourself.
[112] Like relationship choices, relationship choices, lifestyle choices anything anything what what are some of those so in the context of relationships from doing this conversation with multiple people i've started to sort of piece dots together around if your self -esteem is lacking you might become a people pleaser yeah in your in your work so you might you know be exploited by your work and you might not get what you deserve in your job is there anything else that you've seen as a symptom or a consequence of having real low self -esteem that people might be able to relate to like for you so much it's such a broad spectrum because you can either turn into a people pleaser or you can turn into an insufferable a people -pleaser on the surface level everyone loves a people -pleaser they they want to please everybody but the downside of a people -pleaser is they want to please everybody they have no boundaries with themselves or with other people they don't respect their own They don't respect others' boundaries.
[113] If they're people -pleasing person A and what person B wants goes against what person A wants, they will find a way to please both of them.
[114] So a people -pleaser also turns into someone who lies, someone who deceived, someone who is a habitual boundary crosser with themselves and with other people.
[115] Like, there's a spectrum to it.
[116] I would say it was definitely a people -pleaser.
[117] I also sought validation from from people who's looking back on it now, whose opinion I probably shouldn't have respected back then, let alone today.
[118] So that is, that was a downside.
[119] Made a lot of choices that I can't take back, porn being one of the biggest ones, but I feel like that wasn't even the first one.
[120] The first one was getting into a relationship.
[121] that I never should have been in with someone who was extremely abusive, extremely dangerous in the sense that looking back on it and having the self -awareness and being able to call it what it was is grooming.
[122] It was just a relationship that I feel like a lot of girls get into when they're in their late teens.
[123] what does that happen what do you mean how this really getting into a relationship when you're roughly 18 years old wasn't it the relationship started when I was 16 okay then went until I was about 20 and this person was significantly older than you yes yes the age difference was how to play in that dynamic my low self -esteem had a play in that dynamic um everything was just kind of like 16 yeah This person's double your age?
[124] No, no, no. It was about a 10 -year age difference.
[125] And at 16, what were you, when you looked forward to your future, had you asked yourself that question about, you know, what happens in 10 years' time?
[126] Oh, no. No, I wouldn't have known what happened in a week's time.
[127] It was, I mean, I got talked into eloping to Las Vegas four days after my 18th birthday.
[128] So if you asked me where I see myself in five years, I don't know.
[129] I would have looked at you with doe eyes and said, I don't know, and then looked over at him.
[130] Where do you see me in five years?
[131] Like, I didn't have a sense of self, so I attached myself to someone who was more than happy to abuse that and someone who could see that and see someone easily manipulatable.
[132] Yeah.
[133] But at the same time, eager to play.
[134] please.
[135] So yeah, it was just the perfect storm.
[136] Perfect storm.
[137] Yeah.
[138] You got married at 18.
[139] Yeah.
[140] Even that is uncommon to say the least.
[141] Yeah.
[142] Do not recommend it.
[143] So when you say that this, you know, this person clearly took advantage of several things that were present in you, whether that was low self -esteem or, you know, just general inexperience and naivety of being a young, a young woman.
[144] Which direction in life did they push you towards?
[145] Do they push you towards becoming a really good partner to them?
[146] Or did they push you in a professional direction?
[147] Or was it, did they pull you towards themselves?
[148] Yeah, it was, there was no encouragement.
[149] There was no pushing towards anything.
[150] It was an extremely unhealthy relationship.
[151] And I even feel weird calling it a relationship because the dynamic was not one of a relationship.
[152] It was more one of someone who saw a toy to play with.
[153] They were, the industry they were in is probably not the one that you're thinking of.
[154] They were in the army.
[155] So it wasn't even, it had nothing to do with the porn industry, but it also had everything to do with it.
[156] They were the ones who kind of put that whole world in front of me and encouraged it.
[157] And they encouraged it.
[158] Oh, very much so.
[159] Your husband.
[160] Yeah.
[161] I struggle to understand this.
[162] So your husband, when you're 18 years old, is encouraging you towards the adult entertainment industry?
[163] It started off as just online.
[164] But then eventually, yeah, when I was asked to, to, I was given a business card and told to think about it.
[165] went home.
[166] I left it off and the consensus was, you should do it.
[167] I think it would be great.
[168] That's what I mean.
[169] Okay.
[170] So you're, I read this story.
[171] You were out, out at lunch somewhere.
[172] Someone, a guy walks up to you when you're how old?
[173] 20.
[174] And gives you a business card and says, if you ever want to consider getting into the adult entertainment industry, here's my number.
[175] You take that home.
[176] I was wondering this when I read, read about that part of your story.
[177] What happened post that business card?
[178] you know because i was i think much she was married so you know i've got a partner my my girlfriend comes home and says a man's come up to me in the street and giving me a card and made me an offer like that um my i'm gonna be honest my natural disposition would be to like fucking burn the card yeah like well they were also unhealthy had mental health issues that i don't know if they've ever addressed but it's a sickness and they were not the right but what The whole point of this is when your relationship with yourself isn't right, you are not going to find the right person.
[179] You're not going to choose the right person.
[180] You're not going to choose someone who wants the best for you or will bring the best out of you because you don't want that for yourself.
[181] What were they getting out of it?
[182] You're doing that, you accepting the invitation from that business card.
[183] What did they stand to gain from that?
[184] Fetishization.
[185] Really?
[186] That was it.
[187] Yeah.
[188] or anything like that for them.
[189] Do you forgive that person?
[190] No, I forgive myself.
[191] Yeah?
[192] Do you think there's a need to forgive people in life?
[193] I think you need to forgive yourself for, if someone has crossed your boundary, you need to forgive yourself for letting that happen, for giving them a position in your life to hurt you like that.
[194] Me telling you that wasn't to explain or shift blame, it was to give context as to where I was mentally.
[195] How did you, from that point onwards, from 20 years onwards then for the next couple of years, when you look back at the mere Sarah.
[196] Sarah?
[197] Yeah.
[198] Do you prefer to be called Sarah?
[199] Yeah.
[200] But it also, it's not, I don't take offense to it.
[201] I did, I did a while ago, but I don't take offense to it or I don't feel like my name's actually Sarah.
[202] It's either or.
[203] You prefer to be called Sarah?
[204] I do.
[205] Yeah?
[206] Yeah.
[207] Okay.
[208] So that's Sarah through that period of your life, characterized by low self -esteem, people around her capitalizing on that in various different ways you in your own words not knowing better at that time in your life at that point in your life 20 21 22 you go and study right so you you study at university again with the aim of pursuing some kind of academic or professional pursuit and what was that history history yeah didn't really see even then I didn't see like a like a future doing anything I just thought I really enjoy studying history felt like watching a movie like I'm enamored with like it it's my favorite subject it felt like the easiest thing um the second easiest thing is like psychology oh I love psychology yeah exactly they're the interesting ones they're the juicy they're the juicy majors um I didn't see myself doing anything other than whatever I had going on the next week and then I guess the furthest I thought ahead was I guess I'll work in archives or work in a museum or something.
[209] I didn't have a plan like, oh, I want to be a teacher or something.
[210] I've heard you talk about weight loss and weight related issues attached to the self -esteem conversation.
[211] What role did your weight play in all of this and the self -esteem and the confidence and body image issues and all of that?
[212] I think a pretty large one.
[213] My weight now still fluctuates.
[214] And the more that I've worked on myself in therapy, the less that bothers me and my and affects my relationship with myself.
[215] So even in the months where I feel like I do not look like myself, I don't feel like myself, I've let myself go a little bit.
[216] It doesn't affect me the way it used to 10 years ago.
[217] I don't fall.
[218] Yeah, I don't let it get to me as much anymore, but it did for a very long time because it was, I weighed like 60 pounds more than this, which is a lot.
[219] That's a huge amount of weight to lose.
[220] Yeah.
[221] I read that the ways that you lost that weight were slightly troubling.
[222] Yeah.
[223] I mean, I wasn't eating well.
[224] I wasn't exercising well.
[225] I had unhealthy habits.
[226] I was young.
[227] Therapy.
[228] You went to therapy.
[229] That's helped you get to where you are today.
[230] What role has therapy played in your life?
[231] And when did you first start going to therapy?
[232] Oh, the biggest role.
[233] 2016?
[234] Yeah.
[235] The biggest role.
[236] I don't, I mean, I'm still in therapy.
[237] I don't see myself ever stopping, really.
[238] I cycle out therapist.
[239] It's like, yeah, I love it.
[240] I love feeling like, okay, I'm ready, I'm ready for a first start.
[241] I'm ready for someone new.
[242] I'm ready for a new perspective.
[243] It's a way to keep me grounded.
[244] Every week I have to sit down and analyze myself, my thoughts, my past.
[245] Like, I have to dig down and actually come face to face with the decisions I've made, the, my ways of thinking, my, my, my, my relationship with myself.
[246] Like, there's accountability with therapy.
[247] And I think that's the biggest impact.
[248] I guess accountability.
[249] Yeah.
[250] What are the, what, when you've dug down and sought to understand yourself, what are some of the key takeaways you've taken from, from therapy?
[251] As it, so when I think about that question, if I was to be on the receiving end of it, one of the first things that comes to mind is actually my, my ongoing evolution of understanding why I was so, avoidant in relationships, like always running away from any woman, even if I pursued her and then she turned and said, okay, let's be boyfriend and girlfriend.
[252] I would just bounce.
[253] And I had this sort of like toxic model of like what love was from my parents.
[254] But then also all the shame and insecurities.
[255] Like I think I'm ambitious.
[256] No, I'm being dragged by this need to be enough, right?
[257] So those are kind of the two two top line ideas that I took away from my experience with sort of introspection.
[258] Are there any like big picture ideas that you've taken away from therapy that were epiphany moments, connected dots?
[259] That's a loaded question because I'm so grateful for all of the information I've learned about myself.
[260] Like the dots I've been able to connect, like how being triggered by something a friend of mine says is actually related to the way that I felt like the way that I felt ostracized on the playground when no one wanted to play with me. And like one little thing, even though they didn't mean it that way or or even had any malicious intent behind it.
[261] has then taken me back to that 12 -year -old girl who just feels so alone and doesn't know what she did wrong and just wants to people please.
[262] And I think the best part of therapy is within a split.
[263] Yeah.
[264] Have you seen that so Raven.
[265] No. It's this show with Raven Simone on the Disney channel when we were growing up.
[266] And she has these visions.
[267] She's a psychic.
[268] And she just like stares off into space and then she zooms out and then she zooms back in and no time has gone.
[269] But she saw maybe 30 minute vision play out but she comes back and it's been like a split second and that's how that's what therapy feels like it takes me back and I analyze that moment and I understand that that moment is not this moment and my friend cares about me and she's not actually trying to make me feel like no one wants to play with me on the playground just because she said you can come if you want and not I want you to come you know what I mean um I think that's that's the magic behind therapy.
[270] It gives you time traveling superpowers.
[271] Has it, has it changed your perception of the period of your life where you enter the adult entertainment industry?
[272] Has it, has it changed your perception how you yeah.
[273] Absolutely.
[274] I spent so much time wondering why did I do this?
[275] This is not me. I was in it for such a short amount of time and the entire time I was doing it I was also asking myself every day, why am I doing this?
[276] What is wrong with me?
[277] What is wrong with me?
[278] That's like the number one question.
[279] And I know what was wrong with me. I had low self -esteem.
[280] I had no boundaries with myself.
[281] I didn't respect myself.
[282] I didn't like myself.
[283] So many things were wrong with me and all of these things anyone can work on.
[284] It's hard.
[285] It is hard, though.
[286] It's hard.
[287] Once you become self -aware, there's no going back.
[288] I think I cried more in the first two years of being in therapy than I ever did going through anything I did in my in my in my in my in my life in my adolescence and my early teens and anything this is why a lot of people don't go to therapy it's hard it's hard that self -awareness is like I mean it's it's it no and especially once you start realizing things about people in your life that you've kind of put rose -colored glasses on for all your life to make up excuses or to kind of change the situation in your head so that you don't actually have to face what the reality or the fact that, wow, this is actually a really situation.
[289] This person that I love who's supposed to support me, who's supposed to be there for me, was actually not that great in hindsight, not even in hindsight, in 2020 site, in actual vision.
[290] And the shedding that takes place when you become...
[291] Shetting, that's a great word.
[292] Yeah, that's great.
[293] That's exactly how it feels.
[294] Slowly letting these little pieces go.
[295] What's interesting is when I read about your life post the adult entertainment industry, which was only a couple of months anyway, all in all, you sounded incredibly isolated.
[296] So when I think about the word shedding, I think of all these people that you're letting go.
[297] But in that period, you sounded like you were alone.
[298] I remember the story of you going to Austin and meeting your friend on Twitter, all those kinds of things.
[299] Take me to that period then.
[300] So you make the decision that that career is not for you.
[301] what happens the next you know the next day week month post that fucking loneliness i was living in an efficiency in an efficiency is not even a studio it's where this rug cuts off to that wall that is wider than what it was but definitely the length my toilet my my bathroom sink was also my kitchen sink there was no stove there was a broken window that i had tape over and there was only one window It was like, it was, it's a room.
[302] I think they're popular in South Florida or like, I don't think you have them here because I don't think they're legal to like sell as living spaces.
[303] Um, very lonely, extremely lonely.
[304] But at that point in my life, loneliness was better than what I was doing before.
[305] And that I think was the start of the tiniest, tiniest, tiniest, tiniest bit of confidence.
[306] That gave me the confidence to take the risk of.
[307] moving to Austin and starting a new life.
[308] And I was so lonely, I was so broke, I was so lost, I was so confused, but all I was completely 100 % sure of was, I don't want to do porn.
[309] I've never wanted to do porn.
[310] I'm never going to go back to that.
[311] And standing firm on my ground in my morals, in my boundaries, in just everything, that was like the tiniest glimmer of confidence starting to grow.
[312] standing firm in my boundaries, even if I didn't know that was a boundary.
[313] I couldn't pinpoint it.
[314] I couldn't call it that.
[315] I didn't know what it was.
[316] I didn't have the verbiage or the knowledge or the self -awareness to call it what it was.
[317] But that was how it started.
[318] I would not.
[319] If I hadn't moved to Austin, I wouldn't have started therapy.
[320] I wouldn't have.
[321] That was the domino effect in a positive way in my life.
[322] It could have gone a completely other way.
[323] And it does for so many people.
[324] And I'm so, so, so grateful that I was able to get out.
[325] That first domino falling, which took you to Austin in that new direction, was there a catalyst?
[326] Was there something that pushed that domino?
[327] Because I noticed that in the sort of timeline of events, you then at the same time, separate from your partner around a similar time.
[328] And then you leave the adult entertainment industry.
[329] Was there a catalyst?
[330] Because those two things, those two decisions are huge decisions and they feel correlated.
[331] They feel like they're attached.
[332] I had nothing to lose and I think that I also knew I need to get the fuck out of Miami I was in Miami at the time and it was where everything happened and I just did not want to be there anymore it was it felt daunting it felt like walls closing in on me everywhere I went Was there like a catalyst day though something that happens that makes you go fat or was it just slowly?
[333] Yeah it was I mean it was the day I met my best friend on Twitter I didn't meet her that day on Twitter her and I had been following each other for a while she was posts memes I like them, vice versa.
[334] She, her and I were talking about something.
[335] Oh, she said I'm looking for a roommate.
[336] I'm asking around the office for a roommate.
[337] And I said, what if I moved to Austin?
[338] I don't want to live in Miami anymore.
[339] And then I started looking up, how do you move states?
[340] Like, what does it take?
[341] What does it require?
[342] What paperwork do I need for my dogs?
[343] Like, all of that stuff.
[344] And then within a month, I was packed up and moved.
[345] And was there a catalyst for you deciding to leave the adult entertainment industry, even though you were there for a couple of months.
[346] Was there anything?
[347] I think it was how overwhelming everything became so fast.
[348] Ah, okay.
[349] Like that was the reality check.
[350] It was like, it was like a light, like they, when they turn the lights on at the club at four in the morning, like, whoa, the floors are sticky and nothing looks the same.
[351] This is not what I signed up for.
[352] It's not what I expected.
[353] I fucked up.
[354] That's not a typical experience for an actress in that industry.
[355] No, not at all.
[356] atypical experience because you went from obscurity to to number one in an industry in in weeks yeah so you you got hit by a fucking truck yeah okay that makes sense okay you become a paralegal yeah for a very short period of time like six months tell me all about that nothing really much to say it was for an insurance defense firm it was pretty boring and it was very much like like corporate the insurance company that they represented was it was geico so it was like a very boring thing and it was it was just paper pushing um it was really weird to work there especially since that was my first job where i did it i i did the application and i went into it thinking this is the shift this is this is me putting me a caliphah behind me and this is me like trying to be a real human um did not work everyone in the office recognized me It was a very uncomfortable work environment, not because anyone was overtly inappropriate.
[357] It was just simply being in an office, knowing anyone who walked through did a double take.
[358] And it's like, are you?
[359] So that was uncomfortable.
[360] And then after that, I worked at a construction company just doing bookkeeping and office work.
[361] And same thing.
[362] I would have to go on a job site.
[363] And the owner of the company just, made it so I like I I can't go on job sites it was a distraction it was not a good idea it was people would be that in that situation people would be inappropriate sometimes but yeah I I started to feel like a burden in the office is where I was and I hated that feeling and I was actually sitting at that construction job in the office when I was talking to rachel and the DMs like I'm going to move to Austin let's do it.
[364] anxiety.
[365] Yeah.
[366] Has that been a big part of your life for much of your life?
[367] Yes, very much so.
[368] And I think that has been prevalent from the very beginning.
[369] The very beginning is since you're a kid or a teenager.
[370] Yeah, probably even in utero.
[371] I mean, my parents grew up in the civil war in Lebanon.
[372] And I lived through a lot of conflict in Lebanon, whether it be civil or the surrounding countries or whatever.
[373] But we left for a reason and it's because it was dangerous.
[374] So I think I've always had that like I jump when I hear a noise I jump when someone who's been in the room for four hours with me speaks even though they haven't because they haven't spoken in 10 minutes like I get scared like I I'm a jumpy person probably because of that when was your anxiety at its highest 2019 2020 okay so that's post Austin oh yeah yeah it was when it was post everything but it was in the midst of the porn company going after me publicly and re -releasing things and digging up footage that was corrupted in 2012, in 2013, whenever it was shot and releasing it like it was new and that coming back into the new cycle and them just being extremely abusive and exerting and proving that they still have control over.
[375] me because I signed a contract that says in perpetuity on it your life had had started to move oh yeah I was married again married again 2019 your where are you living at this point I was living in LA um yeah I was living in LA I was doing my own thing I was starting to figure out what it was I wanted to do and and where I like things were really good that year it was it was the year I had that little cameo in that incredible show Rami that was that was really that was a huge moment for me and I'm so grateful for that moment and I'm so upset that that moment was kind of overshadowed by all of the negativity that came from the the porn company in the subsequent months the porn company and coming after you and attacking you not something you would expect from a company?
[376] A billion dollar company at that.
[377] Yeah, it goes to show you how petty and personal it is because the people who are behind it aren't, aren't exactly the CEOs.
[378] It's the board pseudo producers who don't like that I'm out here talking about my experience.
[379] It's very much individual.
[380] not the company, but these individuals do have the power to speak on the company's behalf.
[381] What are they threatened by?
[382] I think they're threatened by, like you said earlier, most people in my position aren't in my position because they, this is the outcome that the girls want who enter the industry, most of them, who entered the commercial porn industry or the mainstream porn industry.
[383] They want the fame.
[384] They want the infamy.
[385] They want all of that.
[386] And I think for the first time, these individuals are experiencing someone who is fully aware of what was happening and is fully aware of what is and isn't ethical and has the platform and the resources to speak on all of those things.
[387] What is your opinion of the industry now?
[388] I have a very unfavorable opinion.
[389] opinion on it.
[390] But I do think that there are ethical and unethical ways that you can support sex workers and consume porn.
[391] As someone who is a creator or as someone who is simply a consumer, there are ethical ways to do it.
[392] Granted, any company has its downsides, like even OnlyFans, has trouble policing and regulating the people who are on their site and the, Every company has its downsides, but I would say that the major production porn companies are all predatory and abusive and unethical and prey on vulnerable young women.
[393] And even me saying this, I already know that some of the responses back are going to be from women in the industry that say, no, it's not.
[394] No, it's not.
[395] It's great.
[396] It's fantastic.
[397] Everyone is so nice.
[398] I love this company.
[399] I love working with I love all of this and to be honest with you I think that that rhetoric is grooming I think that if you're going to enter the industry and you're going to be an advocate for it it has to it has to come with a caveat and that caveat needs to be you shouldn't enter the industry unless you've already kind of been in the industry it shouldn't be a first option for you like that shouldn't be something that you simply go into because you like it think about it more wait on it more the age to go into the industry should not be 18 you're putting contracts in front of 18 year old girls that have the words in perpetuity on them do you know how dangerous and predatory that is these are three four five page contracts Jesus Christ I mean any contract when you're 18 years old although it's like the legal verb it's jargon it's literally another language I was thinking about Miranda rights.
[400] We don't really have like Miranda right.
[401] We have our own version of it here.
[402] But you do think God Save the Queen?
[403] I've never been arrested.
[404] I'll let you know.
[405] But you get read your Miranda.
[406] I watch all of these like a US crime interrogation videos.
[407] It's like how I fall asleep.
[408] Don't worry about it.
[409] Wow.
[410] But I see them being read.
[411] Let's go back to anxiety.
[412] Yeah.
[413] I see them being read their Miranda rights before they get interrogated and then they get offered a lawyer.
[414] Yeah.
[415] Seems like maybe from what you're saying, that's not a bad idea.
[416] if there was some kind of like implications clearly stated to people that are considering entering the porn industry at a young age and the opportunity to have a lawyer or at least legal representation to impartially explain as a third party the potential implications for better or for worse you know i don't think that's ever going to be possible unless the laws change around what around around the rights that they have it's just those two words in perpetuity it's In perpetuity, what vicious words.
[417] Yeah, not forever, not in your lifetime, not in our lifetime, in perpetuity of all lifetimes in all existence.
[418] Who needs that much control over a young woman's body?
[419] They still own the website with your name, with your...
[420] Yeah.
[421] There's nothing you can do to have that website taken down.
[422] I mean, there is, but it's a very expensive lawsuit.
[423] against a billion dollar corporation.
[424] It's a conglomerate.
[425] They also own, Bang Bros isn't the only company under that umbrella.
[426] It's a very, it's a very wide reach.
[427] The peak of your anxiety, 2019, 2020, if I was a flower on the wall inside your apartment, wherever you were living back then, what would I have seen?
[428] What would I observed?
[429] Didn't shower, didn't brush my teeth, didn't eat, didn't leave my bed, was crying all the time.
[430] time I would open my phone I felt I felt like I felt like a prisoner in my own body and in the world more so not just in my own body because I I didn't I couldn't scream loud enough there's nothing I could do to make it go away or to make them stop honestly the worst part about it was I knew that if I if I went on and actually spoke about how how much it impacted me, that's what they would want.
[431] That's exactly what they would want.
[432] They were very annoyed that I started naming them by name.
[433] And that's when everything started.
[434] These individuals value their privacy more than anything in the world.
[435] And it's because of all of the unethical and immoral things that they've done throughout their careers in this industry.
[436] So they all go by aliens.
[437] as too being called out by their legal government names was not something they took kindly to and that is why they chose to release the video that the footage was corrupted of 10 years ago that's that was a pornographic video yeah okay so they started releasing more videos because she was speaking out against them and they started doing a variety of other attacks making like mini Instagram documentary yeah clips of you which I thought I find it I mean, you'd expect, like, a jealous, bitter X to be doing something like that.
[438] That's exactly what they are.
[439] You know, not a corporation.
[440] That's exactly what they are, a jealous, bitter X. I look at all the decisions I've made in my life, and I think about, you know, being 18 and deciding to do this or that or 25 and doing this and fucking up at that.
[441] And you people look back and they say, there's always a silver lining.
[442] Is there a silver lining?
[443] Yeah.
[444] I'm really funny.
[445] Trauma makes you funny.
[446] built character no of course there's a silver lining i'm sitting in front of you today happier than i've ever been i've i am not the sum of the things i've been through or the adversities i've faced i'm not the silver lining is fucking happened it's over with it's not over with actually it's following me for the rest of my life but i am no longer in the mental space that i was back then And so it's over with for me. And you get to make your silver lining.
[447] Yeah.
[448] And that's what I feel like you've done is you've made a silver lining.
[449] Because there's clearly, you could have gone several ways.
[450] Yes, that's true.
[451] What are the ways you could have gone?
[452] I was acting on instinct.
[453] There wasn't a time when I sat down and thought, what do I want with my life?
[454] I needed a job, so I acted on instinct.
[455] I applied to things that I felt like I could do.
[456] I'm good at paperwork.
[457] I'm good at, I'm good at, I'm good at, just administrative things.
[458] I like being left alone, so I didn't want a job where I was working with a, like I was always acting on instinct.
[459] There was never really a plan.
[460] What felt right?
[461] It felt right in the moment to get an office job.
[462] It felt right in the moment to leave that one and go to another one.
[463] It felt right in the moment to leave everything and move to Austin.
[464] It felt right in the moment in Austin to, well, actually, I had a very, that was the first time in my life where I started forming a core group of friends and people who were still my life to this day um and they were the ones who convinced me not convinced me but kind of encouraged me to go to therapy depression another word different to anxiety in many respects people often characterize it with like thoughts of the past and they think of anxiety as worries of the future um depression's another word that i read a few times throughout your story again is that something that's kind of been with you throughout life or is that was that post moving to Miami.
[465] It was really that 2019, 2020.
[466] Oh really?
[467] Yeah.
[468] Yeah.
[469] I went on Lexa Pro.
[470] I went like that was when I mean maybe I was depressed but it was never diagnosed.
[471] I had two therapy sessions a week and a psychiatrist and I was on Lexa Pro I was on propranol.
[472] I was on beta blockers, everything for anxiety, depression all of that.
[473] All of that.
[474] That was in 2019, 2020, when everything started to kind of get rehashed and I felt like the things, I'm very, very grateful to be out of the depths of my depression.
[475] But something that does keep me up at night, anxiety -wise, is where things are headed with AI and deep fakes and things like that.
[476] because that feeling of of being violated all over again and having no control.
[477] Like, it's like trying to run in a dream.
[478] As hard as you try, it's impossible.
[479] And it's a very daunting feeling and you feel claustrophobic and you feel like you're trying to breathe underwater and all these really, really awful things that are out of your control.
[480] That's what that feels like.
[481] And I try not to think about it for too long.
[482] But the AI stuff feels like that the deep fake stuff yeah okay that it's fucking terrifying yeah were people worried about you 2019 did you have people around you that were worried about you at that point i did i did i'm very grateful i did because i'm trying to think of this this step people take when they go and have therapy or they go to the doctor and say listen something's wrong with me you're at home this stuff's happening online this porn company are targeting you what is the what is the what was the catalyst in that moment to make you go do or I need to go get help.
[483] Oh, I was still in therapy.
[484] Yeah, and my therapist said, you need a psychiatrist.
[485] Really?
[486] Yeah, he said, I'm diet, like, you need a psychiatrist.
[487] I can't prescribe you antidepressants.
[488] You need a psychiatrist.
[489] Here's some recommendations.
[490] Again, so what's life like?
[491] I joined a TV show.
[492] So things change for me. You know, people start stopping you in the street and coming up to you in the gym and stuff.
[493] And, you know, I like, you know, it comes with, territory of what I did.
[494] I was well aware of what I was getting into.
[495] Also, I joined the TV show and I was like 28, 29.
[496] So you kind of like, you're probably a bit more prepared mentally for things and you understand the world a bit better and you're not trying to impress people as much as I was when I was younger.
[497] But it was still an adjustment, to say the least.
[498] What was life like for you?
[499] That post -Miamy period, you're now moving on with your life.
[500] You're trying to, you know, this porn company come for you.
[501] What is life like day to day when you go to the coffee shop?
[502] I'm kind of glad you asked that because it's a huge to what it is now, even though it's kind of still the same.
[503] I would get recognized and I would get come up to and I would get asked to like take a photo with someone all the time.
[504] But my reaction to it is completely different than than it is now.
[505] I would want to crawl into a hole and hide away and be ashamed.
[506] I was I was so embarrassed.
[507] I felt like a like a warm feeling in my stomach.
[508] Like I had just been punched or like I just found out I was being cheated on or something.
[509] It's just a very painful visceral reaction to be recognized and to know what you're being recognized for.
[510] And it wasn't until I started to accomplish other things and I started to be proud of things that I've that I've done and things that I've kind of shifted and diverted into in my career.
[511] So those first few months to a year in Austin, I felt very, I had a lot of social anxiety and I didn't go out much because I didn't want to be recognized.
[512] I felt like I just didn't want to be recognized.
[513] I didn't want to be looked at.
[514] I didn't want to be perceived.
[515] I didn't want to leave my house.
[516] None of that.
[517] Is that a form of like self -hatred?
[518] Because you're like, no, because no, because it was more so the people who were coming up to me. College guys, like men, you know?
[519] It, it, it, it, It just made me uncomfortable because I knew why they knew me. And it wasn't until I started accomplishing things that I was actually proud of that that changed.
[520] I didn't feel that same like gut -wrenching, visceral feeling of shame when I would hear the name Mia or or get called in the street or anything like that.
[521] Like I, the more I accomplished, the more proud I was of what I've built and what I've changed and all of these things that I've done, the more comfortable I got with being.
[522] being recognized because inherently people were recognizing me for other things.
[523] Women started to recognize me. Everything kind of shifted.
[524] The more that I do and continue to do, the more, the more, the more that changes.
[525] Like I rarely get come, like I get come up to more by, by women now than by men.
[526] And I love that.
[527] What was that path out of the, there's a book I, from a psychiatrist I had on this podcast called The Path Out of the Jungle.
[528] For you, what was the, that's path through the jungle, sorry, but.
[529] What was the path out of the jungle for you, that 2019 depression period?
[530] Like, how did you, for people that might be in that situation right now where they're really struggling, what was, was it just time?
[531] Was it community support?
[532] Was it the medication?
[533] How did you get out of that phase?
[534] Everything.
[535] All of that combined.
[536] All of that combined, truly.
[537] I don't think I could have done it without, shout out to Lexa Pro, without the LexaPro, without my support system, without my job, without people in my job encouraging me to, to, to, to, to, to pursue what I want to do and to not let fear of of having something taken away from me or having something.
[538] You had that fear of having it taken away from you?
[539] Yeah, of course.
[540] Of course.
[541] They're constantly threatening me even using the name Mia Khalifa.
[542] They're threatening you using the name Mia Khalifa.
[543] They think they have ownership of it.
[544] Okay.
[545] Which they do not.
[546] It's my dog's name.
[547] And they tried to convince me not to use Khalifa because they said, no one's going to know how to spell it.
[548] But yeah, I'm constantly in fear of they're a billion dollar corporation.
[549] Yeah.
[550] The amount of lawsuits that they field on a daily basis, they're being sued right now by a company that does MLB trading cards because they're trying to do trading cards of actresses.
[551] You're married around that time, right?
[552] Yeah.
[553] A lot of what I read said that that marriage had fallen apart because the attention you were getting was difficult for your partner.
[554] I don't know about that.
[555] He's also.
[556] Famous?
[557] No, no. Well, he's a very popular chef.
[558] But no, that that was more of irreconcilable differences.
[559] No, I'm just kidding.
[560] It was a lot.
[561] We were in therapy for a year.
[562] Okay.
[563] An entire year.
[564] We tried.
[565] We were separated for.
[566] three months I lived at an Airbnb I moved out of the house like we we tried it was more so it just very much came down to we got married very too early we got married too soon before we actually knew each other we got married in the honeymoon phase and um we were just very different TikTok you've become a TikTok sensation I don't like to spend too much time on TikTok because you know I'll end up not doing anything with my life I spent too long on there because it's really addictive.
[567] But I went through your TikToks.
[568] You're a comedian.
[569] Oh my God.
[570] It's the trauma.
[571] No, but you know, but you are.
[572] You're incredibly successful on TikTok.
[573] I think that TikTok is my favorite app.
[574] And I think that I'm very lucky that TikTok is just, it's where I spend the most time.
[575] I kind of just get it.
[576] I get it.
[577] It was very easy for me. I love TikTok.
[578] So suits your personality.
[579] Yeah.
[580] You've cultivated a group of people there, a huge group of people, almost like 30 million people or something crazy um who love that side of sarah yeah the women on on on on my ticot are amazing i'm very very grateful for the community of women that i found on there you the second ago you said about 10 years time plans for 10 years time you said now you have an answer what is the answer the answer is two car garage decent backyard um um Um, three very successful still operating companies that I'm very heavily involved in still.
[581] I don't plan on retiring anytime soon.
[582] And hopefully a kid on the way.
[583] Ooh.
[584] In order to have a kid.
[585] Now, there's a couple of routes to having a kid.
[586] That's not true.
[587] In order to have a kid, you can adopt one.
[588] You can steal one or you can have your own.
[589] All, you know, all of these paths.
[590] I mean, I'm sure there might be a fourth path that I'm not.
[591] Yeah, I wouldn't mind stealing a four -year -old, someone who's already, like, into cartoons and stuff.
[592] So maybe that's the route I go by, I go for.
[593] Are you, are you in a relationship now?
[594] No. You know, you're single?
[595] Yes.
[596] How are you finding that?
[597] I talk a lot about my guess about relationships and how dating in the modern world is really, really tough.
[598] It is tough.
[599] It sucks, especially for a certain generation, I think, got caught between, like, the digital world and like the analog world.
[600] Yeah.
[601] Do you find it tough?
[602] Obviously, people know who you are.
[603] You're famous.
[604] You're super famous.
[605] You've got like 16 million followers plus.
[606] Do you find it tough to date?
[607] Very, very, but I'm also not trying.
[608] I've been a serial monogamous for a while.
[609] I got out of a long -term, long -ish -term relationship a few months ago.
[610] But, yeah, it's difficult.
[611] It's difficult, but I also haven't tried, but I'm, I don't know what I'm expecting.
[612] I haven't gone into the dating world in maybe six years.
[613] I've been in long -term relationships.
[614] What would make a great partner for Sarah?
[615] What would they have to have?
[616] What would be the jigsaw shape?
[617] Emotional intelligence and a good relationship with their therapist and with therapy in general.
[618] Someone who's constantly working on themselves and is self -aware and understands the ebbs and flows of life and emotions and how it's not always going to be even keel, how it'll oscillate.
[619] but also light doesn't necessarily mean go from good to toxic it means go from good to needing a little more support than you normally have men are not necessarily the best at emotional intelligence but i'm not ruling out women yeah good good and business three businesses the business the jewelry brand can you tell me all about your jewelry brand and um the inspiration for that and your vision for that um i'm really really excited to launch it it's called chaeton it's It's, the inspiration is every woman who I've ever admired, every Arab girl who chooses yellow gold over white gold, every just women in general, huge inspiration behind it.
[620] It's body jewelry for the most part, but it's also lifestyle.
[621] It will launch imminently.
[622] And, yeah.
[623] Why did you choose jewelry?
[624] Because I love it.
[625] I was custom making the things that I wanted that I couldn't find easily.
[626] Hand lariots and foot lariots and belly chains and bra chains and all of this stuff was extremely hard to find.
[627] So I was custom making it and paying a lot for it.
[628] So I'm very excited to put out something that is extremely delicate and precious and beautiful, but also affordable you know when you think about like the ingredient ingredients list of your own happiness right now in your life what is on that list of ingredients what are the like factors that need to be present for you to feel like stable and um full i would say 70 % alone time interesting 20 % time surrounded by people who energize and recharge me and 10 % 10 % 10 % just if something feels right do it follow your instinct but like I'm kind of scared of my instinct a little too sometimes even though yeah 10 % just listen to your gut and going back to the start of the conversation this is because you feel closest to knowing who who you are yeah yeah the most secure in the decisions I make on a daily basis and who are you I'm sarah I'm sarah fucking Joe And who's Sarah Joe?
[629] Sarah is unapologetic and not fearless, pretty fearful, but I think that's a good thing, cautious, cautious and secure.
[630] Okay, so unapologetic.
[631] And then the second one was not fearless, pretty fearful.
[632] Yeah, but in a good way, cautious, cautious.
[633] Cautious, okay.
[634] The unapologetic part, I get that.
[635] I sense that from you.
[636] Where did that come from?
[637] Rihanna.
[638] Rihanna, no, really, that came from Rihanna.
[639] Oh, absolutely, yeah, yeah.
[640] She has a whole album called Unapologetic, and that is what I base my, my personality off of.
[641] Why?
[642] What do you mean why?
[643] Why did you choose to bait there's so many different albums Rihanna's made or?
[644] Oh, that's, that's the one that just exude, that's the one that kind of, that was her, that was her shift also.
[645] That was her moment of now I know who I am and I'm unapologetic about it.
[646] it might not be the bubblegum pop girl you thought i was or wanted me to be this is who i am and this is the person who's not going anywhere is that a stark contrast from the sarah i would have met had i met you at like 18 like if i'd like put that 18 year old sarah there and i had them both side by side i'm guessing sarah 18 wouldn't be unapologetic no what can you describe how her her vibe would have been sat here today shriveled insecure quite it probably or too loud just because insecurity screams not not someone well actually no that is someone who I would want to be around because I I feel empathy for her and I forgive her and the journey to unapologetic was from what I've gone and so far based on the evidence you got from going out and doing things and proving shit to yourself yeah that's so important I was going to say this at the start of the conversation this idea of confidence people don't know how you said it like how do you get confidence like where does it come from how do I buy one But from your own experiences, it's the evidence you gain from doing shit that changes your beliefs.
[647] Exactly.
[648] It's all evidence.
[649] Yeah.
[650] You have evidence for, like, low confidence is negative evidence.
[651] Yeah.
[652] And the confidence you've built over the last couple of years is from doing really cool shit.
[653] Yeah.
[654] We have a closing tradition on this podcast where the last guest leaves a question for the next guest.
[655] Okay.
[656] And they leave it written in this diary.
[657] Oh.
[658] Aristotle said, give me the child at seven and I'll show you.
[659] the man or won't is it true that the first seven years of your life make you who you are i think they have a huge impact just psychology speaking psychologically i think those are very formative years yeah seven years old you could have um whispered some words into sarah zia what would those words have been you're amazing you're enough you're perfect Thank you so much, ma 'am.
[660] Thank you.
[661] Sarah.
[662] Yeah, that's okay.
[663] Learning about your story and really like the reaction to the mistakes you made when you were younger is incredibly inspiring for me because we all make decisions, especially in our young years that, you know, through naivety or other or coercion or whatever it might be, we're not necessarily, you know, we wouldn't make those decisions again.
[664] And the way you've responded to that and built the life that you're building now off the back of that and the audience you've built around TikTok and so.
[665] social media around your personality and your humor is incredibly hope inspiring.
[666] It gives me a lot of hope that regardless of, you know, the steps I make in my life, there will be, there's a way through, there's a way through the jungle.
[667] And that's what your story represents to me. It's an incredibly inspiring one and you're, yeah, you're an inspiration for that very reason.
[668] Thank you.
[669] Thank you.
[670] I appreciate that.