Judd Apatow

[0] Hi, my name is Judd Apatow.

[1] And I don't feel hopeful about being Conan O 'Brien's friend.

[2] Holy school, hear the yell, back to school, ring the bell, brandy shoes, walking loose, climb the fence, books and pens, I can tell that we are going to be friends.

[3] Yes, I can tell that we are going to be friends Hello there and welcome to Conan O 'Brien needs a friend The little engine that could, just trucking along.

[4] Yeah, we were the underdollins.

[5] They said it couldn't be done.

[6] They said after 26 years in television, there's no way.

[7] And I said, I'll show you.

[8] Yeah.

[9] And then they said, why are you yelling at your father?

[10] I'm joined as always.

[11] by my loyal assistant.

[12] You are a loyal, Sona.

[13] Yeah, I need to be.

[14] I just bought a house.

[15] That's right.

[16] Sona just bought a house with her husband TAC.

[17] Yes.

[18] And this is your first house that you've owned.

[19] Yes.

[20] Well, you're an adult now.

[21] Yeah.

[22] So I got to, you know, you have to just keep going for another 30 years.

[23] Who me?

[24] Yeah, till I pay it off because I can't work anywhere else.

[25] Well, that would put me way past my life expectancy.

[26] So I'm just telling you, I'm just being honest.

[27] And I also, I live, I sort of, one of those guys that lives on the edge, so I might not go the distance.

[28] No, you do not.

[29] What are you talking about?

[30] You're one of the most cautious people I've ever.

[31] What are you talking about?

[32] I'm a madman.

[33] I'm a daredevil.

[34] No, I'm not.

[35] You know you're not.

[36] It's okay.

[37] No, I like to think that I, I'm a, you know, edgy guy.

[38] Matt, Matt, Gourley is also here.

[39] You're the producer and engineer.

[40] I'm just saying you're the engineer.

[41] I don't think you.

[42] Are you really the engineer?

[43] I'm not at all the engineers.

[44] Yeah, but I don't know what Will does.

[45] He's the engineer.

[46] Is he, though?

[47] He is.

[48] Will's always in the background, and I've never seen him adjust to dial.

[49] He doesn't have a microphone.

[50] He's always adjusting.

[51] Do you have a microphone available, Will, that you can talk into?

[52] Let me explain what Will looks like.

[53] Will looks like a backwoodsman with a trim beard, but he does look like someone who just participated in a barn raising.

[54] Oh, boy.

[55] and now I'm told you're an engineer I swear to God I thought you were back there doing like a Civil War sketch for posterity We were doing it since like 2018 I think Yeah Well my heart is with you right now He's right Well no first of all I will thank you I didn't realize you were the engineer I thought you were here as a fan Kind of a creepy fan Who showed up Showed up every week And just stared at me through the booth But I'm realizing now Occasionally I do see you adjust to dial or something.

[56] From an engineer's point of view, Will, and again, I'll picture it.

[57] He is wearing a denim shirt, a trim beard, very late 19th century haircut.

[58] Looks like someone who may have tried to assassinate Garfield in a train station.

[59] Will Beckton, if I may use your last name.

[60] As an assassin, you'll need a middle name.

[61] Do you have a middle name?

[62] McEwen.

[63] Okay, Will McEwen Bechden.

[64] Oh, that does sound assassinating.

[65] Yeah, it really does.

[66] Yeah, when you add that, yeah.

[67] Will McEwen -Becton attempted to assassinate President Garfield, but failed when the derringer he was holding melted in his hand because it was made of chocolate.

[68] He's not even a good assassin.

[69] Not even a good assassin.

[70] Will, from an engineer's standpoint, how do you think the show is going?

[71] Not creatively, but from the engineering standpoint, how are the levels?

[72] The levels are fine.

[73] Okay.

[74] What a prick.

[75] Do you, do you, is my voice tough on the dials?

[76] Do you ever have to kind of ride me down a little bit because of my, my irritating, reedy voice?

[77] There's some dynamic range.

[78] All right, want to talk about that?

[79] There's some lows and some highs.

[80] Yeah, as all great singers have.

[81] I can go low, I can go low, and I can go ha.

[82] I mean, that's a dynamic.

[83] range.

[84] Treat me like a fool.

[85] Treat me cruel but love me. You know, that's a song we can't clear.

[86] So good luck getting that in there.

[87] Will you pay the Elvis Presley estate whatever it cost to play that song?

[88] I forgot that you can't pay for it because you only have Confederate money.

[89] It's not your fault, Will.

[90] But I'm glad that you think from an engineering standpoint of view, this is going well.

[91] From that point of view, this is going fine.

[92] Okay.

[93] All right.

[94] He's stressing it.

[95] God.

[96] Damn.

[97] Talk to me after Will.

[98] I have some coping.

[99] Now, I'm curious.

[100] How do you, Matt Goreley, the producer?

[101] How do you interact with the engineer Will Bechton?

[102] Well, after a session, Will sends me the files.

[103] And then I do.

[104] He sends me the files.

[105] My precious files.

[106] Can't you make it sound a little cooler?

[107] He sends me the show?

[108] He sends me the episode.

[109] We're doing a podcast.

[110] There's no way to make this cool.

[111] They're files.

[112] You can definitely, see, that's the problem with podcasts.

[113] As you guys have all accepted that it's nerdy, we could make it cooler than it is.

[114] Say, after we've wrapped an episode, I get the episode and I manipulate it.

[115] Will drives it to me on a motorcycle delivered in saddlebags, leather saddlebags.

[116] Is it like a Royal Enfield motorcycle, the one that killed Lawrence of Arabia?

[117] It's exactly that one.

[118] Yeah, and it has a little side car.

[119] Yeah.

[120] And just a little World War I Jersey.

[121] soldiers in the side car.

[122] Yeah, and Will is wearing goggles and he speeds it to you and he takes it to your house.

[123] Well, it's not a house, it's a bunker.

[124] Yeah, to your bunker.

[125] It's a bunker.

[126] And he gets it to you and he has to dodge shells.

[127] It's like 1917 on the way.

[128] It's all in one shot and he gets you the episode and you take it out of the lead canister and then you put it on the old reel to reel and send it out to the Americas.

[129] I send it pneumatic tube like at home people.

[130] That's what I want to think about the show.

[131] So next time I ask you, don't go, Hmm, he emails me the files.

[132] I don't think I did that.

[133] That's what you did.

[134] Dropbox, yeah, yeah.

[135] It's Dropbox, yeah.

[136] Dropbox.

[137] The show business I grew up in, and I know I'm an older gentleman, but the show business I grew up in was like, you could smell the popcorn.

[138] Everyone had the face paint on, you know?

[139] What?

[140] Grease paint?

[141] Grease paint?

[142] Yeah.

[143] Face paint, like from a child's party.

[144] What are you talking about?

[145] We all, back then I grew up, when I grew up, You could feel the tap shoes going up the wooden stairs as people ascended getting ready to do the big review.

[146] That's the kind of show business I always wanted to be in.

[147] And now I find myself in this sterile environment with a guy who's like, Files, and a late 19th century dust bowl farmer is twiddling some dials.

[148] I mean, the joy is gone.

[149] Let's get show business back into podcasts.

[150] Don't you think?

[151] Yeah, I'm all for that.

[152] Wow.

[153] Let's do it.

[154] Okay, that's better.

[155] Yeah.

[156] There you go.

[157] Fuck you.

[158] Okay.

[159] What the hell was that?

[160] Hey man, you asked for it.

[161] They never said that in a Mickey Rooney movie.

[162] Go screw.

[163] Let's do a show.

[164] Yeah, we could do it.

[165] Yeah, says Judy Garwin.

[166] Fuck yeah, says Mickey Rooney.

[167] We're going to fucking do the shit.

[168] Mitt, Codd.

[169] Mickey, come here.

[170] What, what happened?

[171] Anyway, I just want to make sure that show business, let's bring real old -fashioned show business.

[172] For any way that we could get the sound of like popping corn and crowds milling around in an audience.

[173] Right now, lay it under here.

[174] We'll do that.

[175] Yeah, something like that would be nice.

[176] Like an old film projector.

[177] Yes, the crowd's coming.

[178] They're taking off their hats and putting them in their laps and setting down and they're getting ready to watch the show.

[179] Okay, well, that will happen and has happened now.

[180] Okay.

[181] I like it.

[182] I like that we're in show business now.

[183] We did it.

[184] And Will, thank you for being such a good engineer.

[185] You clearly do a great job.

[186] Thanks for good things.

[187] You have to understand Will's a little stunned Doesn't get to the big city often This is a huge deal for him See all these blinking lights Will I want to jump in front of this bullet Somehow like pull out a handkerchief Or I'm sure, yeah, pull out a handkerchief I'm sure you have a handkerchief on you I know, we've talked about it Yes, I'm sure you do Well, you know, enough dilly -dallion And enough shilly -shallying There's no time to waste We must get on with the show And what a show it is That's right, gang My guest today is a writer, director, and producer of some of the most well -known comedies of the last two decades.

[188] His movies include Knocked Up, Super Bad, the 40 -year -old Virgin, and The Big Sick.

[189] He also worked on the Larry Sanders Show and now has a book.

[190] It's Gary Shandling's book, honoring legendary comedian and his mentor, Gary Shandling.

[191] I'm very excited to talk to this gentleman.

[192] Jud Appetow is here.

[193] Hey, Judd.

[194] I have to say, I walked in, and I saw you today, and sometimes you seem miserable.

[195] I do today.

[196] I do.

[197] I am today.

[198] Today I am, yeah.

[199] Are you really miserable?

[200] You just seem miserable.

[201] Oh, no, no. It's happening.

[202] It's happening right now.

[203] Is there anything you want to talk about that I could help you with?

[204] Well, you know, sometimes, I don't know if you've been through this, you're working through creative problems, and you have a day where you realize that maybe you're wrong about everything and deserve nothing in your life and you're a fraud and you're about to have an epic worldwide use.

[205] humiliation and then you walk in and there's Conan and you can't hide it you try to hide it no i saw it right away uh first of all cannot relate to what you're talking about okay i've never made a comedic error or a creative error in my life it's been i was thinking about this the other day i for me a string of i mean day to day just massive successes so what you say falls on deaf ears as far as i'm concerned understand you've been here a million times not here in this studio, but you've been in this place mentally a million times.

[206] And it still doesn't go away.

[207] That is the beauty of making anything is that no matter how many times you've succeeded, you do not feel that it increases your chances of succeeding again.

[208] And all the success gives you no self -esteem.

[209] That's the surprise.

[210] The lack of self -esteem off of success.

[211] I remember I was at a restaurant.

[212] We bumped it to somebody.

[213] I mean, it was literally like Stephen's Spielberg, but it wasn't, but someone like that.

[214] And they said the nicest things to me that a person could say to me, the things as a child you would dream that an idol would say to you.

[215] Right.

[216] And when they walked away, I said to Leszay, I should never be insecure ever again because that just happened.

[217] And five minutes later, I sunk back down.

[218] And I realized it doesn't hold.

[219] It doesn't hold.

[220] No. No. The best way can describe it is that if someone walked up to you and they had a vape pen that dispensed self -esteem.

[221] Yes.

[222] And they took a long big pull and then blew that bubble gum flavored self -esteem into your face.

[223] And for like, I would say as long as you can smell that bubble gum for, that's how long you feel it.

[224] And then it dissolves or it goes away.

[225] A writer can get in my face about, even jokingly, about one of their pieces that just did well.

[226] And I can instantly access one from 25 years ago that missed the mark.

[227] And they'll just, they'll laugh, but they're also just stunned that I can remember Yoda Plummer.

[228] But now you're still going to do baby Yoda Plummer.

[229] Now, yeah, yeah, now it'll have to be baby Yoda Plummer.

[230] But it's just, it's just absolutely, uh, they don't know how sick we are, really.

[231] I'm just going to cover the sound of your straw going into your very rich, chocolatey drink that you're about to have.

[232] I call it the fuel, the ice -planded mocha fuel.

[233] Yeah.

[234] Yeah, that's 8 ,000 calories of just pure sugar.

[235] I'm going to be so focused and then get home and then it's just two hours of diarrhea, but it's worth it.

[236] A sweet, creamy diarrhea.

[237] Oh, God.

[238] An attractive diarrhea.

[239] Yeah.

[240] Oh, my God.

[241] It doesn't change the shape.

[242] As diaries go, it is a fantastic diarrhea.

[243] And Starbucks, we thank you.

[244] You started to cheer up a bit when we were talking about other comedians.

[245] And I thought we should just, you know, we were talking about Sandler.

[246] And Sandler's a really good example.

[247] Adam Sandler's a really good example of a guy who's just had, he has never rested on a laurel for like a half a second.

[248] And just always looks like a man who, I think, I think they're on to me. You know, I think they got to.

[249] And I think you're another guy is the same thing.

[250] It's hard not to be that way because I feel like most people don't realize that in their jobs, when they fail, it isn't a massive public humiliation.

[251] You could screw up, you know, change in an oil filter at work.

[252] And you're like, okay, I'm going to redo that.

[253] You don't have the entire world calling you an asshole.

[254] And so it's just very different.

[255] The states.

[256] I don't, I don't, there was never a time in your career where everybody called you an asshole.

[257] asshole.

[258] I think you have a prism in the front of your brain.

[259] It would probably show up in a cat scan.

[260] There's a prism large in the front of your brain.

[261] And when input comes in, it gets refracted nine different ways.

[262] And you get this crazy rainbow of misery that's not accurate.

[263] I totally.

[264] The whole world has never called you an asshole.

[265] Because I think when you're young, you think, God, if I could get everyone to like me and appreciate me, I won't feel bad about myself.

[266] and then when it happens, you feel just as bad about yourself.

[267] He's like, damn it, it didn't work at all.

[268] And that's the strange part.

[269] But I think what's good about it is it's like why Sandler's great in Uncut Gems.

[270] It's because there's no part of him that feels comfortable with anything that's happened.

[271] So his level of effort on Uncut Gems is the same as how obsessed he was doing his third set at the comic strip.

[272] Right.

[273] Because he can't feel it, and most of us can't feel it, or we would, you know, stop.

[274] You have a unique understanding of this because as a young, young guy, you were hanging around with Sandler, Shandling, Jim Carrey.

[275] You were around all these people, some of them before they were famous, like you were around Sandler before anybody knew who he was.

[276] And so you've seen them from the very beginning all through the process.

[277] Yeah.

[278] And you know that fame and getting recognized and having a lot of money doesn't change a fucking thing.

[279] Well, also you have your friends from school who are not in show business.

[280] And sometimes you just go, I think they seem way happier than us.

[281] They're like, hey, I'm going to Fire Island this weekend.

[282] And then we're going to go to the Yankee game.

[283] And then I'm going to go visit the kids at school.

[284] And you feel the lack of stress and tension.

[285] And you know they have work stress and, you know, the things they need to do.

[286] do to keep their lives going, but you don't feel the filter.

[287] Yeah.

[288] Because I think when you're in creative arts in any way, every second of the day, you feel like I could be working fixing something.

[289] Yes.

[290] And that's a weird feeling that I think a lot of people, you know, they check out.

[291] You know, if you're a chef, you check out and then you go do what you're going to do.

[292] You're not like going, you know, there's probably a joke in there somewhere if I could figure out how to punch that scene up.

[293] And as a writer, every second of the day, you could be writing.

[294] So you either feel like you're writing or you're neglecting writing.

[295] Right.

[296] And it's just a strange thing.

[297] And you try to shake it off and you focus and you learn to meditate and you go to hot yoga or whatever you think is going to change it.

[298] But ultimately, in the middle of hot yoga, you're like, you could bring them in for 80 yard.

[299] Well, I can add a joke on the back of his head.

[300] And it's just a strange life.

[301] I had someone recommend during a particularly difficult time in my life that I'd, I try meditation.

[302] And I tried so hard.

[303] And I failed consistently because my head is, imagine one of those baskets that just spins around with ping pong balls in it at a lottery where they're going to pick one out.

[304] It's just constantly spinning around and all those ping pongs are like, some of them are joyous and have good ideas, but a lot of them are also incredibly negative and it's all rattling around.

[305] I could not sit still.

[306] I remember in the Gary Shandling documentary where they, show him talking to Ricky Jervais.

[307] Yeah.

[308] And Gary says, you know, you should, you know, use silence.

[309] You know, he's trying to get him to be quiet.

[310] He was irritated at Ricky Jervais because Ricky Jervais sort of surprised him in his kitchen for something he was shooting.

[311] And you can see that Gary's really rattled by it.

[312] And Ricky, it's very awkward.

[313] Ricky's trying to have fun in the moment with it.

[314] And Gary's very upset.

[315] And then he keeps saying to him, you should use silence to Ricky.

[316] Jervais, you should try using silence.

[317] And what he's basically saying he's shut the fuck up.

[318] But you should try silence as such a nice way of saying it.

[319] And also a very, you know, Gary way of saying it.

[320] Yeah.

[321] And it's a fascinating moment because Gary was, by the way, I have a book.

[322] It's Gary Chandling's book if you're interested in such things.

[323] But Gary said, I'll do an interview with you for your TV show where you interview famous comedy people.

[324] But I want to interview you for the DVD extras for the Larry Sanders show.

[325] And I guess the agreement was that they would.

[326] do Gary's interview first, and then he would do whatever Ricky wanted, and also don't come in the house until I get home.

[327] And he gets home, and they're all set up.

[328] And that's not necessarily Ricky's fault.

[329] He may not even know any of this.

[330] But Gary instantly gets all negative and worked up.

[331] And he feels betrayed and hijacked.

[332] And it's way out of proportion with what's happening.

[333] But in the moment, Gary decides to out awkward Ricky Jervais.

[334] Yeah.

[335] It was almost like he was saying, oh, you think you're the office awkward guy?

[336] Let me show you how awkward works.

[337] And he creates a scenario that is maybe the most awkward thing you've ever witnessed.

[338] And then I found a camera that Gary, it was one of Carrie's camera, man, had some video of this moment, which wasn't in the DVD extras or in Ricky's show, which is of Gary telling him, like, you should use silence in your work, trying to get Ricky to not talk.

[339] And then Ricky kept saying, like, I can't.

[340] I don't understand.

[341] And he was having the experience that you are talking about, which I have had every day for the last 27 years.

[342] I read through like a bunch of my old journals the other day.

[343] I swear every entry is me going, you really should meditate.

[344] You should meditate.

[345] You'd feel better if you've meditated.

[346] God, your inner voice is so annoying.

[347] You should try meditating.

[348] That's why I don't meditate.

[349] That's why you don't meditate.

[350] Now you're doing it.

[351] You're getting to a very Zen place.

[352] Ed Wynne is my inner voice.

[353] Or the waiter from the I Love Lucy.

[354] Oh, Lucille.

[355] Yeah, that's your problem.

[356] We just identified it.

[357] It's your inner voice.

[358] If your inner voice, if you could get Samuel L. Jackson to dub your inner voice, I think you'd be in a better place.

[359] I hate my essence.

[360] That's what I've learned.

[361] When I get to pure quiet and it's only me and no one is there, I'm like, fuck that guy.

[362] Shut the fuck up.

[363] That's your true self.

[364] That's my true self.

[365] Just a piece of shit.

[366] I, uh, it's so funny you bring that up because I have all these journals that I've found.

[367] And they're all so annoyingly self -helpy.

[368] Like, it's all like, tomorrow you'll eat nothing.

[369] And you'll run on a machine for six hours.

[370] And, you know, you'll get down.

[371] It's just, what?

[372] And it, and it's like, that's 1995.

[373] Wait, 1998.

[374] Here's an entry from 2014.

[375] Here's one from 2019.

[376] And it's just a litany.

[377] And then I come to work, and Sona will back me up on this.

[378] There's this guy that sits right near Sona, David hopping, and he's just happy.

[379] Yeah.

[380] And he's really happy.

[381] And every time I come in, I'm just like, David, what's up?

[382] And he's like, I went to Disneyland.

[383] And it was really fun.

[384] I'm with some friends.

[385] Then we went and saw a movie.

[386] And then we went, oh, the next day we went to this room.

[387] Then we went back to Disneyland.

[388] and I'm like, oh, you went to Disneyland, did you?

[389] You have a good time riding around the teacups?

[390] You're so mad at it.

[391] I'm so mad at him.

[392] For loving life.

[393] For loving life.

[394] Yeah.

[395] Jealous.

[396] I mean, jealous.

[397] Because, I mean, I always wonder where that comes from because I think it's a form of hypervigilance.

[398] I think that when you come from certain backgrounds or family strife, it clicks on some part of your brain that's like, you better fucking pay attention.

[399] or shit is going down.

[400] It's like watching the door in the restaurant to see if like gunmen are going to come in, you know?

[401] Like you're just hypervigilant.

[402] So it's not even like, it's not happy.

[403] It's just like, if I just like get old giggly talking about my Disney Day, I'm going to miss the thing that's going to chop my head off.

[404] And so you're just fucking focused every fucking second.

[405] And that's the thing I'm always trying to get rid of.

[406] And it is very hard.

[407] Only watching 90 Day fiancé helps.

[408] Does that really help you?

[409] Is that bring you to a...

[410] Maybe it does.

[411] Maybe 90 -day fiancé is your happy place.

[412] I'm like, at least I don't have to convince this woman to marry me so I can get in the country.

[413] Do you find this, though?

[414] I mean, you might be joking.

[415] I don't know.

[416] That might actually be your show, but, you know, the show that you love.

[417] But I am so happy watching things that don't have anything to do with comedy.

[418] Yes.

[419] I like things where I don't have to, like, oh, I see the seam in the workmanship, or I see, oh, they're doing that, okay.

[420] I like to be transported, and if it's comedy, I might not be transported.

[421] It doesn't mean all comedy, obviously, but I just, I could get triggered.

[422] So the thing that's not going to trigger me is an absurd reality show or a documentary about a terrible murderer in the 1950s.

[423] A great documentary about Hitler on meth.

[424] Yeah.

[425] Right?

[426] They were all on meth.

[427] on meth.

[428] That's what we know.

[429] Yeah, and then you can't admit to your friends, like, that show you've had for seven years, I've never seen one second of it.

[430] Because I'd rather watch Hitler on meth.

[431] Yeah.

[432] Well, you know, we're surrounded by all these people that make comedy.

[433] And they all are churning out comedy and they're doing comedy specials.

[434] And there's this sense that we're all supposed to be watching all of it.

[435] But if you look at my cue, it's always like you may also like, and then it's just swastikas.

[436] It's just, and I don't mean in a, please take that the right way, ladies and gentlemen, but it's all like Hitler, Carpentry, Hitler, when he went on vacation, like anything about Hitler or Stalin or any of those people.

[437] And it makes me, I look at that and I think, what kind of monster am I?

[438] I love it too.

[439] I'll watch, I'll get like Shoah, and then I'll go, oh, I'll read something like, oh, the guy who made Shoah made all these other documentaries because he had so much stuff that he then made a whole bunch of other.

[440] the documentaries with the extra footage and then there's there's a documentary about the guy who made show up showing him how how he made show up which actually has an incredible scene where he would pretend he was like from some magazine and interview some Nazi and hiding in Argentina and then they figured it out that he was fake and they beat him almost to death that's like in this documentary about uh and i think it's good because it makes us root for the good guys like yeah we like to know what the bad guys do right so that we can fight them.

[441] So I think of it's part of our preparation for future wars.

[442] Yes, yes, yes.

[443] Thank you for making me feel better about my really dark viewing habits.

[444] You just reminded me, I just, I always remember moments of humiliation and shame.

[445] And when you mentioned Shoa, I remember when I was in college going to the movie theater and the movie's done and it's a multiplex.

[446] And I come out and I see a bunch of my friends coming out and they're, they were all weeping from their movie.

[447] And I said, what did you guys just see?

[448] And they said, we just saw Shoah.

[449] And they're just like, they're...

[450] Claude Lansman's Shoah, 10 hours.

[451] And they're like, weeping.

[452] And you were walking out of...

[453] No, and here it is.

[454] They said, what did you see?

[455] And I said, Rambo 2.

[456] I just...

[457] I still think about that occasionally.

[458] Whenever someone brings up Shoah, I remember that I was watching the least good of the Rambo movies.

[459] Not even the original rant.

[460] I was watching the one where they're like, can we get a little more out of this?

[461] Can we get a little extra mileage?

[462] And literally the wall my cinema shared on the other side, Shoa was going on.

[463] And I'm watching Sylvester Stallone just blow people up.

[464] You did a beautiful thing.

[465] Every time, many times I've run into you, I've said when Gary Shandling passed away, you did such a lovely thing, which is you put together this incredible memorial for him, which we all attended, and it was just great.

[466] And then you made this fantastic documentary about Gary, and now you've got this book, which is entitled, it's Gary Shandling's book, which is out right now, and it's fantastic.

[467] I think the reason this sort of relates to our overarching conversation is, is that you were mentored by Gary, who was very generous to you, and then you've turned around and paid it forward.

[468] With all these people that you found, whether it's Lena Dunham or Amy Schumer or Seth Rogen, James Franco, you find these people and you say, hey, they're not there yet, but I'm going to put a light on them, which I think is a mitzvah, to use my people's term.

[469] You really are into all aspects of Jewish life, from the Holocaust documentaries to using the word mitzvah.

[470] Well, Mitzvah was used.

[471] That word came up a lot in Rambo too.

[472] People keep thanking Rambo for things.

[473] And he goes like, it's a Mitzvah.

[474] I mean, I always look at it like I'm just a comedy fan.

[475] And as a kid, I would obsessively watch the Mike Douglas show.

[476] And every once in a while, there'd be a new comic.

[477] And I would track them the way a kid would track an athlete.

[478] Like, oh, my God, who's that Michael Keaton guy?

[479] I need to be doing stand -up.

[480] And then I'd hear, oh, he's got a TV show with Jim Ballet.

[481] luci and then suddenly i'd be watching working stiffs and then that it gets canceled immediately i'm like oh he's got this this movie night shift and i would track them so i always think of it more like like that it's just now i see people and i think oh i like them i wish they were in a movie i don't know if people will give them one maybe i can try to help make it happen but it's more like i want to see the movie it's funny because i was going through my diaries just the other day hadn't in like years and like in 2002 it just said connected to nothing maybe I should make a movie with Seth Rogen as the lead which you know coming off of undeclared being canceled and it wasn't like the most obvious thought like wait I think he should be the star of a major motion picture but in my head as a fan I just thought I think that's the funniest of everybody right now I wonder what that would be and that and that just continues I mean I just finished a movie with Pete David.

[482] And we met him five years ago when he was a kid.

[483] And I thought, well, that's clearly a guy that could carry these movies.

[484] Even as a 19 -year -old, it was pretty obvious.

[485] I was talking to John Mullaney and Pete Davidson came up.

[486] And I was saying, yeah, what is it about Pete Davidson?

[487] Because he does have this aura.

[488] And I can't quite identify what it is.

[489] And he was saying, John Mullaney was saying he really feels like he's like a young Sinatra.

[490] Like if you see footage of Sinatra that's funny.

[491] In 1944 Sinatra has this kind of it's slightly twitchy but menacing but also vulnerable like it's this whole package that you just go like who's that guy who is that guy?

[492] I don't know who that guy is but and I don't really know Pete Davidson's stand -up you know I'm always reading about something that happened after he did his stand -up or this incredibly beautiful woman he was seen with before the standup or after the standup, but I don't really know his work.

[493] Well, he's one of those people.

[494] He doesn't know how to not be completely raw and honest and tell you exactly what's in his head at any moment.

[495] Right.

[496] There's just no censor whatsoever.

[497] It's just a live feed from his brain.

[498] That sounds terrifying.

[499] I don't think I want to, I don't think I want to meet him now.

[500] I mean, it makes, like, you know, his acting and his comedy like really immediate and funny.

[501] And I actually think of him more in a way as like an expression of a lot of the way kids feel today.

[502] There's a lot of anxiety and pressure and depression.

[503] And they're struggling in a way that's different than we did as kids.

[504] And it's hard to know exactly what the source of it is.

[505] But he feels that, you know, probably more than most people because he's gone through more than most people.

[506] But I think people relate to this vibration he puts off, which is I'm struggling.

[507] I'm trying to laugh and have.

[508] fun and be a good guy, but it's hard.

[509] Like, life's hard, and I'm really trying to figure it out.

[510] And I think that's why a lot of kids feel.

[511] Yeah, so that's why there's this connection.

[512] He represents, in some way, what's happening in the zeitgeist.

[513] Yeah, you can...

[514] Which is a word I throw around, but I never really understand what it means.

[515] Yes, yes.

[516] You know, one of my favorite things I forgot to mention in the documentary, but it's also in the book, is you talking specifically about Gary being on your show.

[517] bombing and what it felt like to watch it and be a part of it and be in it i was in it yeah gary was in a bad place in his life and i think in his health although i don't even think he knew it yet and uh he came on my show and he had all of these as you know he always had notes always had notes and papers and he's backstage and i remembered reading basically what we were going to talk about in a rough outline form and it was just going to all be hilarious and then he had thrown all of it out yes on the way to the show on the way to the show and he had all these papers and he was flipping through them and I could see just wild scratchings and scrawlings on them and he was saying yeah maybe maybe instead of that I'm not going to do that instead maybe but what if you just but also and I put my hands on his shoulders and I just said Gary it's just me it's just me and it's just like this is not you going on Johnny Carson for the first time and it's make or break.

[518] I was trying to say this really doesn't matter in your life.

[519] But he came out and he was so in his head and he kept looking at himself in the monitor and commenting on how he looked and how he wasn't, what will people say about how I look?

[520] And it just the whole thing.

[521] And I was trying to help him, but I couldn't.

[522] And I was right there and I'm the host.

[523] and I felt like it's my job as the host to make everybody look great and I couldn't do it.

[524] And it was really painful.

[525] And so you brought that up.

[526] Well, it is.

[527] You've now brought me into a miserable pit.

[528] I remember Steve Carell was on Jimmy Kimmel and he did his first talk show appearance.

[529] I don't know if it was for the 40 -year -old Virgin or maybe it was for the office, which aired just before the four -year -old.

[530] Real Virgin came out, and he was nervous, and he just started sweating.

[531] But sweating like Albert Brooks level broadcast news in life, but not even like an exaggeration.

[532] Like, it was like a level of sweat you've never, ever seen before.

[533] And we're watching it, and we're like, is Kimmel going to mention the sweat?

[534] Like, is he going to acknowledge it?

[535] And the audience is tightening up, and it's just, it's way too much sweat.

[536] And then Steve finally, like, commented, like, I'm sweating a lot.

[537] And Jimmy Kim was like, oh, my God, thank you for saying it.

[538] And, like, it popped the moment, but it was like one of those where you're like, oh, no. I've seen that happen up close.

[539] Yeah, we're always that guy no matter what.

[540] Like, I saw Levitz.

[541] I may have told you the story on your show once, but I saw Levitts at this party.

[542] And he looked great.

[543] I'm like, John, you look great.

[544] He's like, yeah, I'm using this new shampoo, control GX.

[545] You shampoo your hand, it makes it a little darker.

[546] And then if you want it darker, you just shampoo it again.

[547] And then when you like it, you stop using it.

[548] and so of course I got to shampoo and I used way too much of it my hair went jet black I looked like Paul Manafort I literally looked like Paul Manafort and then I was like why am I taking fashion advice from John Levitts but I've always embraced like I am not cool I cannot I still dress like I'm 13 years old I don't like you know sometimes people they pick a look like suddenly like Wes Anderson looks like Tom Wolfe or something and it works and then we have friends like that Paul Feig suddenly is wearing three piece suits in a top hat and I'm always like what would that be?

[549] What would I become Euro trash or what is my look and I've given up?

[550] I'm like nope, it's eighth grade at Siazacet high school.

[551] That's all it is.

[552] I can't be cool.

[553] It's not going to happen.

[554] I'm just always amazed at like there's people like Jeff Goldblum who he'll just decide that he's going to dress like a crooner in the 1920s and and wear glasses that were made in Germany in 1850 and do it and it's all like of course yes hurrah Jeff Coleman and it works he pulls it off we can't do that no it looks so and it and it sucks though that if we did that it would look so crazy like I have friends who are actors they'll have completely gray hair and then I'll see him like a month later and they have just like black hair and then you see him next year they've like red hair and no one blinks.

[555] Like, I guess, like, I'm a chameleon.

[556] I can change.

[557] I can be anything.

[558] And I'm like, I'm slowly turning into Santa Claus.

[559] But if I suddenly went black hair, I look nuts.

[560] Like, I look completely crazy.

[561] So I have to, like, accept my decay.

[562] I can't be like Dick Clark, like, with black hair at 85 years old.

[563] Right.

[564] And it sucks.

[565] I'm kind of fascinated with what would happen if I had a, let's say I had a two -month hayatus from my show for whatever reason.

[566] and I went and got a lot of stuff done to my face would people say stuff to me?

[567] That's a tough thing.

[568] I don't know that you would say that.

[569] People don't say it to Simon Cowell and America's got talent.

[570] You know, he did that and suddenly his face is completely different and it's not like a contestant's like, you don't like what I did?

[571] Your face looks fucking nuts, man. Who are you to judge creative choices?

[572] Your eyes have been pulled to either side of your head, Cowell.

[573] No, but I just would dare.

[574] I want to do it almost to just then see who's going to have the courage to come up to me and go like, what did you do?

[575] Well, comedians would do it, but I don't know if they would do it on air.

[576] But I respect people trying.

[577] Like, for me, like, I like the Simon Cowell does it.

[578] Like, I'm kind of jealous at the ease to take those risks.

[579] And, you know, I feel bad for people who get plastic surgery because sometimes it doesn't work.

[580] Like, some people, it must be terrifying.

[581] to go under the knife knowing, like, there is a chance for the rest of my life.

[582] I look nuts.

[583] Right.

[584] Here we go.

[585] I just always think whoever, if you're in comedy, you can't do it.

[586] I mean, I think that's my feeling is that if you're in comedy, you can't, no one's ever looked at me like, hmm, he's a drill treat for the eyes.

[587] I've got to check out my Conan O 'Brien.

[588] You're like, that's not, and so if I'm cutting into muscles that I use, to try and make people laugh and then suddenly I look a little better but I'm frozen.

[589] I don't know.

[590] It may be helpful to us to look weirder.

[591] I'll do it.

[592] I'll do it.

[593] I'll do it.

[594] We like old Phil Silvers more than young Phil Silvers.

[595] Like as we decay, we get that weird you know, like Lou Jacoby face and maybe it's better for us.

[596] I like that you say decay because it's true as opposed to as we age.

[597] I'm going to start saying to older people.

[598] You're further in your decay.

[599] You're more advanced in your decay.

[600] Yes.

[601] And just see how they take it.

[602] Yeah, no, I always see it as decay because you feel it like, okay, we're on the other side.

[603] We're slowly going down.

[604] I'm not sure how slow I can make this, but clearly we're in falling apart mode.

[605] Right.

[606] Yes.

[607] Yeah.

[608] But again, that's just my very specific Jewish perspective of reality.

[609] Although I have been going to the gym a lot lately.

[610] I could tell.

[611] which I hate, and I found a way to be as strong as I've ever been while remaining equally as fat.

[612] So I'm like, I'm like, I'm muscles, but I'm equally as out of control with eating and fat.

[613] So you just, do you eat your feelings?

[614] When you're nervous about a project or a movie, what is your go -to?

[615] Would you eat a whole bun cake?

[616] Would you drink molasses, black -strap molasses out of a jug?

[617] Well, like, sometimes at the office, there's some place they make little bun cakes.

[618] And so someone will send them to the office.

[619] us.

[620] And just every time I pass a refrigerator, I will eat one.

[621] So by the end of the day, I've had 11 mini bun cakes.

[622] But yesterday I was, I was feeling down.

[623] And while just talking to the editor, I did three quarters of a pint of fish food, Ben and Jerry's ice cream, but so fast.

[624] It was so fast that I had to say to the editor, while you said that I ate three quarters of a pint of ice cream.

[625] And then I didn't eat like the last inch.

[626] And it was so fast.

[627] So proud.

[628] So proud that I put it back with an enchiland.

[629] What, do you eat quickly?

[630] So fast.

[631] Okay.

[632] My wife and I go to war about this because she's like, I'm sitting here in the restaurant, eating, staring at your empty plate for way too long.

[633] So I've had to, what I do now is I'll eat really fast and then leave like three things on the plate to create the illusion for my wife that I'm not done, but really I'm done.

[634] Sona, tell Judd, how I eat.

[635] It's shockingly fast.

[636] I mean, within seconds, an entire same.

[637] Sandwich will be scarfed.

[638] And joyless.

[639] So, no joy at all.

[640] No joy.

[641] You're hating it when you eat it.

[642] Yeah, it's, uh, and you're not a food guy.

[643] No. And I've, I have to admit, my wife, when we go someplace, she's like looking online and she's seeing which is the really good food.

[644] And I'm thinking, it doesn't matter.

[645] I'm going to put stuff in the hole in my head.

[646] And I'm going to shove it in as fast as I can.

[647] And then we're going to go back.

[648] home and I'm going to look for Hitler on Netflix.

[649] You know, that's all, what does, you know.

[650] That's the difference.

[651] That's how we know you're not a Jew, this food part of this conversation.

[652] Because for me, and me and Sandler have these talks all the time.

[653] Like when we talk about eating, we'll reminisce about eating.

[654] We're like, oh, God, you remember when we lived together?

[655] We would go to Red Lobster.

[656] Oh, that was so good.

[657] We had no money and we spent it all on Red Lobster.

[658] And we thought it was.

[659] fancy and now we've eaten everywhere in the world and it was better than everything in the world.

[660] It's hilarious.

[661] But we love it so much because it's like it's a great way to shame yourself because you know you're hurting yourself.

[662] You can numb yourself.

[663] You're rewarding yourself.

[664] It's very hard to like unravel the food issues if you have them.

[665] You know, as like a kid of divorce I used to go home and make hamburgers.

[666] We had like a little kitchen island that had a grill on it.

[667] So I'd be like 13 at home making cheeseburgers for myself.

[668] watching the Merv Griffin show turning it into like the most fun event ever watching like Michael Winslow do sound effects on the Merv Griffin show but so to me that was like a joyous escape so now when I see a hamburger I'm hardwired that this is like the best moment of my life How old were you when your parents got divorced because that was a seminal?

[669] And that was like the atom bomb blast of Oh yeah because they never got along again ever like they broke up but they never worked it out.

[670] They fought until they both had no money, and they really never said, like, yeah, we took that too far.

[671] Like, it just went on.

[672] It threw college, after college.

[673] And so it wasn't something that was like a year or two event.

[674] It was a, you know, a lifetime event.

[675] Right.

[676] So that's clearly the, okay, comedy will fix this.

[677] I'll go into comedy.

[678] I'll go into comedy.

[679] I'm going to get a job.

[680] I mean, it made me feel like, I'm going to get out of here.

[681] I'm going to get a job.

[682] I'm going to, like, create my own safer space.

[683] Yeah.

[684] Which was weird.

[685] You know, you're not supposed to be worrying about getting a job when you're 14 and you're, like, plotting your attack on Hollywood.

[686] But like, when you're just nervous, you're like, I mean, you could either, like, become a pothead or go hunt down Howie Mandel to interview him for your high school radio show.

[687] You know, like, that's the two choices.

[688] You interviewed some, for your high school radio show, you interviewed some big names.

[689] Oh, yeah.

[690] Crazy.

[691] I mean, I, well, one of the best ones was John Candy.

[692] I went to see, to the new show.

[693] Yeah.

[694] So I have to learn Michael's left Saturday Night Live for a few years.

[695] He did the new show.

[696] I remember.

[697] And John Candy was a cast member.

[698] And I did like, you know, I'm not going to brag, but I did Willie Tyler and Lester.

[699] At the same time.

[700] At the same time.

[701] Yeah.

[702] I did George Kirby.

[703] You know, I went deep.

[704] I went George Kirby.

[705] I went Guido Sarducci.

[706] I was, you know, I was going one by one.

[707] Well, I got to spend, in 1985, I got to spend a day with John Candy because I was in college and I hoodwinked into him into coming in and visiting our Human Magazine in college.

[708] And I spent the entire day with him.

[709] And it's one of the greatest experiences in my life.

[710] He was everything I wanted him to be.

[711] He was funny, like, as if he were in a sketch, he was funny.

[712] and took me around.

[713] I mean, I was supposed to be showing him around, and he's like, kid, kid, come here, you with me, kid.

[714] And it was just like, oh, my God, he's Johnny Leroux.

[715] It was the greatest experience.

[716] I'll always have that.

[717] That's a great scam of college.

[718] Yes.

[719] You give awards to people to get them to hang out with you.

[720] Yes, and the awards are meaningless, as much as they are in this town.

[721] Like National Lampoon, I mean, Harvard Lampoon, you'd do hasty puddings every year.

[722] Oh, yeah.

[723] Who else came when you were there?

[724] Let's see, we got, oh, Cosby.

[725] Very well.

[726] I've talked about this a lot, but we got, this was back when the Cosby show was just taking off, and we got Cosby to come.

[727] And so I picked him up at the airport, and my dad's really fucked up station wagon that my dad bought from a motel.

[728] So it's, yeah.

[729] And it said, it said, Pine Lodge Inn on the side and had a painting of a pine tree, and it was a crappy fucked up Ford station wagon that had just been it was a real beater and I didn't know about getting a limo so I picked up Bill Cosby who was wearing a tuxedo and flew in on a private jet and he landed at Butler Aviation at Logan Airport which I'll never forget because it was burned into my mind I've got to get to Butler Aviation and I picked him up and he couldn't believe he had to get in that car and for years in a nice way like a funny way or like he's actually furious I think he was was actually way put off and I used to tell this story with great shame and now that he's in prison for these horrendous crimes suddenly I looked like I was way ahead of the curve I looked like you know I knew he was up to something so he had to pay did he go backseat or front seat he went back seat and found and found a big Mac styrofoam rapper in the back and held it up and said and what would this be And I'm like, oh, don't worry about that.

[730] My brother Neil went to McDonald's.

[731] He actually works there, so he gets the Big Macs for free.

[732] We'll be there in about 40 minutes.

[733] I wouldn't touch the door if I were you, Mr. Cosby.

[734] It just flies open sometimes.

[735] And what was the conversation, though?

[736] I mean, let's really dig down into this.

[737] I know.

[738] It was, I don't remember.

[739] I remembered being so, it was so wrong.

[740] and on so many levels.

[741] And I think we literally did go by a bowling trophy and saw off the bowling ball.

[742] So it looked like a man was presenting you with comedy, but it was really a guy bowling, and we had sawed off the bowling ball.

[743] And what would he do?

[744] Would he have to do a speech or accept something?

[745] And it was then that I realized what a rhythm comic he is because I was standing behind him and I think I was like 18 or something and I was realizing and I was standing behind him, nothing he's saying is making sense.

[746] But he's killing.

[747] So he went out.

[748] out there, and it was just that he's such a great rhythm performer.

[749] You know, he could change his pitch, and so it was so musical.

[750] And so he went out there, and he's a huge star, and you saw, oh, if you have great rhythm and you're a massive star, you can go out there.

[751] And literally, it was just like, dasm -de -s -slauze -boo, and people were just going crazy.

[752] And they go, remember, don't be a Junebug, be a Biggle -Boo, and people were going nuts and going, he's right, he's right.

[753] And I was the whole time standing behind him going, I see.

[754] Well, the weird thing is he discovered Sandler.

[755] I didn't know that.

[756] Cosby discovered Sandler?

[757] Sandler goes to a dinner.

[758] I'm sure he's told this story before with Anthony Quinn's family because he was friends with Anthony Quinn's son.

[759] And Cosby was there.

[760] And then Cosby got a kick out of him and put him on the Cosby Show.

[761] I mean, he was on five episodes of the Cosby Show.

[762] That was right.

[763] That was his start.

[764] That was before MTV, I think.

[765] Yeah.

[766] And me and Sandler noticed that.

[767] it was all rhythm comedy when we were kids and we lived together and it was one of the things that we used to do around the apartment all the time was like impressions of Cosby for very long periods of time because we realized that it was just the rhythm so he'd just be like you know I tell this joke where I used the word asshole I only say it once I only use the word once in the act and he gets such a big laugh that I go home I make myself a sandwich I watch a TV show and I come back and they still be laughing Yeah.

[768] And we would just do that all the time.

[769] Just talk.

[770] And then she's making the cake.

[771] And the kids are looking at me. And they're like, oh, no, dad made us eat the cake.

[772] And it's so weird to have so much love for somebody.

[773] Yes.

[774] And then have him be the devil.

[775] It's a very strange experience because it's like, you don't even want to say it like, I got into comedy because of him.

[776] Right.

[777] And then you find out, oh, no. And what does it mean that I loved him so much?

[778] My mom, because there was a lot of kids, there were six kids, and we all had to kind of go to bed around the same time.

[779] So she'd just put us all in bed on the same, we were all on the same floor, you know, on the same level of the house, and she would just put us all in these different rooms, and then she would put a Cosby record on.

[780] Yeah.

[781] And also a new heart, but Cosby.

[782] A chicken heart monster bit.

[783] It is very strange every now and then I stop myself and go, he's in prison for one of the worst things anybody can ever do.

[784] That's stunning to me. You just think about it.

[785] Also, because comedy, I think, was our safe place.

[786] Like, the world is scary.

[787] And so we go to this world with comedians and they're all nice and they're our friends and we love making people happy.

[788] So it's weird to think that the place that's our escape actually has dangerous people in it.

[789] Like, that's the mind fuck of it.

[790] It is, oh, no, my little island, you know, has bad stuff also.

[791] And it's not rational to think that the world of comedy wouldn't also have that.

[792] that.

[793] Because every profession has bad people.

[794] Also, in a way, yeah.

[795] Also, comedy might have more bad people in it than other professions.

[796] Yeah.

[797] You and I have both had the experience without naming names of just working with people who are very talented and absolutely miserable.

[798] I'm going to name the names.

[799] Paul Lindge.

[800] Paul Lynn.

[801] Because, you know, I go to this therapist and one of his theories, which is not his theory, but, the thing that people believe is that the brain wants to remember bad stuff to keep you safe.

[802] Yes.

[803] So I have that story, you know, I tell this on my stand -up special about having to do a toast to Mel Brooks.

[804] Yeah.

[805] All these people are going up before me like Sarah Silverman.

[806] Billy Crystal does a, he sings like 11 songs from Mel Brooks movies and TV shows and Martin Short and comes out.

[807] And I had a panic attack and I left.

[808] I literally left.

[809] I turned to my daughter.

[810] I'm like, I'm really.

[811] nervous and she goes, let's get out of here.

[812] That's so funny because the person you're with is supposed to go, no, no, no, you're great and you're supposed, but to have the person with you go, let's get out of here.

[813] She's like, dad, you're white.

[814] You look white as it goes.

[815] Are you having a heart attack?

[816] And I literally found the first AD of like, I think you have enough content.

[817] I'm going.

[818] And I left and I just, I completely got taken over by the panic of bombing in front of like Mel Brooks and Sasha Baron Cohen.

[819] Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[820] Just everyone was there.

[821] It was like thousands of people.

[822] And since that I've prepared much differently, I just wasn't that prepared for what I was going to do.

[823] But Mel Brooks is also like sewn into your brain from birth.

[824] Like, this is the guy.

[825] Right.

[826] It's one of those, you look up funny in the dictionary.

[827] Yeah.

[828] And his picture just won't be there because it'll just be the definition.

[829] It'll just be the definition of funny.

[830] I mean, I don't want anyone looking in the dictionary because it's just going to be the definition.

[831] I went with Bill Hader to visit him.

[832] You know, every once in a while, I'll go visit him just to bug him.

[833] I don't know him that well, but I would just show up anyway out of worship.

[834] And I brought Bill Hater and he couldn't be nicer and funnier.

[835] And then we're leaving.

[836] And as he walks us out, he goes, come again.

[837] But not for a while.

[838] Like four to six months.

[839] And as we walked to the car, he waited outside.

[840] watched us walk for a long time and he's so funny you know he's just watching us walk and he's just still there you turn around he's still there and then we turn around and he just goes get the fuck out of here All right well I've kept you here way too long and I do apologize but I love talking to you this is great this is really great and it will never you'll never be heard I'm having this destroyed as it should be keep it pure if it's really It's just for now, man. It's just for this moment.

[841] This is a moment.

[842] Don't monetize this shit, Conan.

[843] Oh, trust me. We have not.

[844] Driving a Kia on the way home.

[845] Thank you so much for doing this.

[846] This is really cool.

[847] Thank you.

[848] Okay, let me explain what's happening right now.

[849] We are actually at my house.

[850] We're in the basement of my house where it's nice and quiet.

[851] And it's Sona and I. And we had to tape some ads that needed to go out.

[852] And then I realized, hey, we're here without our producer, Matt Gourley.

[853] So this is our chance to dish on Matt Gourley while he's not here.

[854] Now, don't get me wrong.

[855] I love GORLS.

[856] Gorils.

[857] That's what I call him, G -R -L -R -L -Z.

[858] Some of your nicknames...

[859] What?

[860] They're not great.

[861] G -O -U -R -Z.

[862] With a Z?

[863] Okay.

[864] It's Gorils.

[865] Anyway, he's not here So this is our chance to talk about him Dish Sip a little tea Is that what the kids say now?

[866] Oh my God What do they say?

[867] I don't know honestly I've heard my daughter say it Is it sip a little tea?

[868] You know what?

[869] Isn't it spill the tea?

[870] Why would you spill the tea?

[871] Well, that's because you're dishing You're dishing some hot goss If you've got something to add here He doesn't have a microphone I know, but you can just lean in and say What is it, Blay?

[872] Yeah, I think it's like Or you say something and you say like And that's the tea And that's the tea.

[873] Yeah, the tea is like, The goss.

[874] I like saying let's brew the tea.

[875] Oh, man. Let's brew the tea or let's let the tea steep.

[876] Those aren't good.

[877] Let's let the tea steep.

[878] Then we'll use some sort of mesh to keep all little detritus out of the cup.

[879] And then we'll pour the tea into the cup and enjoy the tea, hence gossip.

[880] Do you like my way of saying it?

[881] It's so long.

[882] Well, it's a process.

[883] Doesn't it take so long?

[884] Can you just say spill the tea?

[885] Not, that's not what the way I like to say it.

[886] Okay, I'm sorry.

[887] Let us brew the tea, let it steep so the nutrients and flavors from within the leaf can become part of the broth, then strain a aforementioned tea, extracting with mesh, all detritus, and then sip the tea as it goes from warm to, you know you're laughing.

[888] then you're always putting the microphone away, denying me of the one thing I really need, which is laughter.

[889] You need it so badly.

[890] Yes, I do.

[891] You're like, a drug addict, and that's the drug.

[892] Oh, I was going to say, like, Tinkerbell, but I remember you made that analogy in the documentary you shot 10 years ago where you're like Tinkerbell, like you need applause or else you die.

[893] Yeah, yeah.

[894] Without laughter and applause, I die.

[895] I'm sorry, I move the microphone away from me. If someone's not laughing at me, then I don't exist.

[896] Well, not only did you, I'm laughing, but you need it to.

[897] make sure people knew I was laughing at you.

[898] Also, if I haven't made someone laugh within a 24 -hour period, it means I never did exist.

[899] All my past history is erased.

[900] It's a weird thing.

[901] It's sort of like, what's that movie with Leonardo DiCaprio where buildings fold into themselves?

[902] The Revenant?

[903] Yeah.

[904] Yeah, the Revenant.

[905] Remember in The Revenant how skyscrapers fold in on themselves?

[906] Yeah.

[907] I'm sorry.

[908] Come on.

[909] Okay.

[910] So anyway.

[911] Inception.

[912] Inception.

[913] What the hell?

[914] Be nice to me. Gorley's not here.

[915] Okay.

[916] Let's talk.

[917] This is our chance.

[918] Let's spill the tea on girls.

[919] Yeah.

[920] Let's brew, we're moved to try to drink said tea and then spill said tea if there's any left over after we drink it on girls.

[921] Now listen, I love the guy and he does an amazing job.

[922] You know, he's like considered a god in the podcast world.

[923] I know.

[924] And he does, oh, look, you can tell where.

[925] in my house because someone's ringing the bell.

[926] Who is it?

[927] It's probably Gourley.

[928] Gourley probably knows we met without him.

[929] And he's at, he's, he has a censor.

[930] They're talking.

[931] So he probably got into his vintage sob.

[932] And anyway, but he's not here.

[933] And I just want to say, I do love the guy.

[934] He's, he's a maestro.

[935] Yeah.

[936] Do you think that it's wrong that we're talking about him when he's not here to stick up for himself?

[937] No, no, no, no, no. That's the best time to talk about people.

[938] Behind their back.

[939] Yes, yes.

[940] I grew up Irish Catholic, as you all know, and I grew up in a family where you never confronted anybody at all.

[941] You just don't.

[942] What you do is you wait until they're out of the room.

[943] Don't you think that that's wrong and that you should talk to someone directly?

[944] Oh, it's terribly wrong.

[945] Oh, okay, okay.

[946] But you want to continue doing it.

[947] It's, I mean, there are a lot of things that are wrong that we keep doing, right?

[948] Right.

[949] I still eat pizza.

[950] I'm not supposed to eat pizza.

[951] Pizza's amazing.

[952] No, it's terrible and it's wrong.

[953] But this is the best time to talk about Gorley because he can't stand up for himself.

[954] Because when people defend themselves, it's just a waste of time.

[955] It's a time wasteer.

[956] What does that even mean?

[957] It means that when someone says, wait a minute, you just said that.

[958] I'd like to defend myself.

[959] That's all time wasted.

[960] Right?

[961] So in your perfect world, you just go after someone.

[962] They don't stick up for themselves.

[963] They can't.

[964] They're not there.

[965] And they're, oh, you're awful.

[966] That's awful.

[967] So anyway, goarly, yeah, he's.

[968] Does it upset you that he's so popular in the podcast world and you just started off in this business?

[969] Not really.

[970] It doesn't really bother me. I have, I'm very good at reverting to my own narcissism.

[971] My narcissism saves me. It's like Iron Man's, you know, shell.

[972] So you're saying it's good you're a narcissist.

[973] Well, yeah.

[974] Narcists do pretty, have you looked at the news?

[975] lately.

[976] Narcissists are killing it.

[977] Narcissists are killing it out there.

[978] But anyway, so no, Gorley, he does it.

[979] Let's list his positives quickly and then move on to the good stuff.

[980] He's really nice.

[981] He's very nice.

[982] He's very friendly.

[983] He's an affable chap.

[984] He's funny.

[985] He's got a lovely, funny, beautiful wife.

[986] Yes.

[987] He seems to be good at a lot of things.

[988] He made like these beautiful craftsman style lamps that looked like they were made by, I mean, a professional.

[989] you know he's handy handy he's handy and then i just think that he um you know he sometimes gets in my grill you've seen him do that yes which is you know what for someone who's known you for not that long it's actually impressive that he he does that he he he fights back yeah i think in the early episodes of this show goarly didn't know he was like oh my god this guy's coming after me you know and let's face it i am um you know a known figure in the world okay sort of like a, uh, whatever, I don't know, Gandhi or, uh, oh my God.

[990] Well, I'm just listing people that are also known.

[991] That's not, right?

[992] Well, or Betty Crocker.

[993] What?

[994] Well, one.

[995] Come on.

[996] Didn't eat enough and one.

[997] Oh, there's Corley trying to get in again to stop me from relating.

[998] Girlie now wants in.

[999] Can you hear that?

[1000] Girlie wants in because he knows I'm about to list Betty Crocker and Gandhi in this same sentence.

[1001] Oh, my God.

[1002] My point is.

[1003] What is the point?

[1004] Really.

[1005] I just wanted to...

[1006] You want to make fun of Gourley when he's not here.

[1007] Yeah, and you know what I'm realizing right now?

[1008] It's not as fun when he's not here.

[1009] There you go.

[1010] Isn't that nice?

[1011] Because I can't see his face contorting in...

[1012] It's not like he looks like he's enraged.

[1013] Yeah.

[1014] But he gets this constipated look when I'm going after him.

[1015] Oh, no. Yeah, he does.

[1016] And he's not here.

[1017] And that makes it less fun.

[1018] And so I'm not going to stop because of moral reasons.

[1019] Okay.

[1020] I'm stopping because I...

[1021] I like to see my victim as I attack.

[1022] So we learned a valuable lesson here.

[1023] Which was?

[1024] Which is, it's, you know, you usually like to talk about someone behind their back.

[1025] But if you do that, you can't see them.

[1026] Feel pain.

[1027] Feel.

[1028] Oh, my God.

[1029] Oh, my God.

[1030] This worked out.

[1031] You've really matured.

[1032] I think I took a big step here.

[1033] Sona.

[1034] Thank you.

[1035] Oh, good.

[1036] I'm glad.

[1037] See, there is some value to meeting in my basement.

[1038] and talking a little bit about goarly and learning how to say, drink the tea.

[1039] Spill the tea.

[1040] Oh, no. Your version of Spill the Tea is probably not going to catch on.

[1041] You'll see.

[1042] It's going to be everywhere.

[1043] Oh, yeah?

[1044] Okay.

[1045] All right.

[1046] 16 -year -old girls everywhere are going to be saying, oh, my God, broo the tea, and then remove the detritus with mesh.

[1047] Then let it cool and then sip.

[1048] All right.

[1049] Okay.

[1050] All right.

[1051] We should get out of the basement.

[1052] I want to go home.

[1053] You want to go home.

[1054] Conan O 'Brien needs a friend.

[1055] With Sonamov Sessian and Conan O 'Brien as himself.

[1056] Produced by me, Matt Goreley.

[1057] Executive produced by Adam Sacks and Jeff Ross at Team Coco and Colin Anderson and Chris Bannon at Earwolf.

[1058] Theme song by The White Stripes.

[1059] Incidental music by Jimmy Vivino.

[1060] Our supervising producer is Aaron Blayert, and our associate talent producer is Jennifer Samples.

[1061] The show is engineered by Will Bechtin.

[1062] You can rate and review this show on Apple Podcasts, and you might find your review featured on a future episode.

[1063] Got a question for Conan?

[1064] Call the Team Coco hotline at 323 -451 -2821 and leave a message.

[1065] It too could be featured on a future episode.

[1066] And if you haven't already, please subscribe to Conan O 'Brien needs a friend on Apple Podcasts, Stitcher, or wherever find podcast.

[1067] are downloaded.

[1068] This has been a Team Coco production in association with Earwolf.