298 - Feelings In Real Time

[0] This is exactly right.

[1] Welcome to my favorite murder.

[2] That's Georgia Hard Star.

[3] That's Karen Kilgariff.

[4] And this is a true crime comedy podcast where we cover cases, true crime stories, recent, historical.

[5] And we also make live observations about the world around us.

[6] Ooh, I like that.

[7] Description.

[8] Thank you.

[9] It's from a play.

[10] Is your monologue?

[11] Are you auditioning?

[12] Yes.

[13] this is um i have one dramatic and one comedic have ever had to do that oh yeah that's what i did all in i was a theater major before i flunked out of college right and i have i never told you the story of you had to audition you got in as a theater major but then you had to audition for all the directors of all the fall season plays and musicals so you had to go and do a monologue house of blue leaves Thanks for asking.

[14] I was going to ask.

[15] And then you had to sing a song.

[16] Oh, God.

[17] So I went and got the sheet music.

[18] What good is sitting alone?

[19] Are you serious?

[20] No. Oh, man, I was hoping I was right.

[21] You were feeling the psychic.

[22] Yeah.

[23] No, I tried to sing what I did for love from I believe a chorus line.

[24] Oh, yeah.

[25] I went and made my sister drive me over to Tower Music in Sacramento and got the sheet music.

[26] Wow.

[27] But I didn't play the piano or know anyone who did, so I just gave the piano player at the place, the sheet music.

[28] And then he, you know, played the first couple chords for me and looked like, is that okay?

[29] And I said, oh, that's too high.

[30] Can you make it lower?

[31] And he goes, no, I can't transpose all of this right here sitting here.

[32] And I was like, oh, okay.

[33] Oh, I get it.

[34] So I was like, all right, well.

[35] And so it was like, kiss today, goodbye.

[36] It starts there.

[37] And then at the end, it's like, won't forget, can't regret.

[38] And it's so fucking high that I started.

[39] laughing as I was singing it and I was like up on my toes and like my shoulders as high as possible they were all fucking laughing their asses off so it was a comedic it was it turned out it wasn't supposed to be comedic it was supposed to be very moving and beautiful but and I also sang like Annie I just was imitating Andrea McCartle which is how I learned how to sing yeah so uh you know I mean I didn't get a part but oh man I was hoping you get the lead roll just out of pity Not pity.

[40] Karen can improvise.

[41] Look, she can take a bad situation, turn it on its head.

[42] I turned to that piano player.

[43] I said, amateur.

[44] And then I turned around and said, let's do this thing.

[45] What about you?

[46] Did you ever audition for plays?

[47] I auditioned for like a student film.

[48] Ooh.

[49] In the back of that Cuban coffee shop on sunset and Silver Lake.

[50] The El Tropical.

[51] Yes.

[52] When I was like 19 had the shittiest headshot.

[53] it was like resume and so I didn't know how to write a resume a and B didn't have one for acting in any fucking way so you lied I don't even think I I said I forgot my resume smart perfect and there's no such thing as I can't email to you no there's no email it's the 90s it's the fucking 90s did a monologue from 200 cigarettes remember that yeah I don't know what did you watch the movie and write down what someone said.

[54] I did exactly that.

[55] I think it was a Martha Plumpton quote.

[56] She did a whole thing when no one came to her party.

[57] I'm so sick of him, 199 cigarettes, that kind of stuff.

[58] I got 199 cigarette problems.

[59] And you're one more.

[60] And you're one extra.

[61] And that's why they call it 200 cigarette.

[62] Then you turn to the rest of the cafe.

[63] Yeah.

[64] 200 cigarettes.

[65] That's right.

[66] It's 1999.

[67] And here we go.

[68] I didn't get the part, obviously.

[69] Did you get to be in it at all?

[70] No, I think they were like, oh, she's an amateur.

[71] Oh, he tried.

[72] That little thing.

[73] And it turned out that director was Quentin Tarantino.

[74] So I just did extra, became an extra instead.

[75] You were just going to get in there and work your way up.

[76] That's right.

[77] And here you are.

[78] And VD, thank you.

[79] It took me to be to 40 to get to do it and I did it.

[80] Yeah.

[81] That's showbiz, baby.

[82] Yep.

[83] It's the middle age when it really hits the good stuff.

[84] Yeah, because you're not a stupid idiot anymore.

[85] more.

[86] Sweet, sweetheart.

[87] I mean that in the sweetest way.

[88] But you're a stupid idiot right now when you're like 35 and lower.

[89] Yeah.

[90] Sorry.

[91] Thank you are.

[92] No shit.

[93] Sorry, Stephen.

[94] Hey, Steven's in the room with us.

[95] Stevens here in the room.

[96] Hello.

[97] I'm very excited to be here.

[98] It's so weird.

[99] This is our first time as a threesome back together since the COVID started.

[100] Yeah.

[101] It feels good.

[102] It feels good to to me too, Stephen.

[103] Thanks for coming up.

[104] Of course.

[105] I mean, it's almost like I purposely forgot my equipment just to get Steve I needed to figure out a way to get Stephen in the room so I forgot pretty much all my equipment you did it I did it was very sweet of you thank you you're welcome she cares about you very nice um anything to go over before we start yeah I have a couple quick cold case updates oh great that two does have been identified both from cases that we've done So one of the victims, the unnamed victims of Alaska serial killer Robert Hansen, who you covered, has been identified.

[106] The Baker, right?

[107] The Baker, right?

[108] Her name is Ms. Robin Pelke.

[109] So I'm glad she has her name back.

[110] Yeah.

[111] And then another one is one of Gacy's victims.

[112] I just saw that article.

[113] Yeah.

[114] So I saw it on the Fall Line podcast, Instagram, that his name is Francis W. Wayne Alexander, and he's from Chicago, Illinois, and he's finally been, after all this fucking time, it looks like in 1978 is when he was discovered and he's finally been identified.

[115] Wow.

[116] I know.

[117] Love that they were still working on that.

[118] They got it done.

[119] It's so important to give these does their names back and their history and their identity.

[120] So their families actually have at least an end to the story and a way to process their grief.

[121] Totally.

[122] That's, thanks.

[123] that's good news yeah in how horrible in tragedy bill i mean yeah how it how it always is it seems like yeah you have anything good news good news or bad news well i have to say that i started watching a series so and i've talked to other people about this too there's something now the addiction left over from quarantine is i want a series a television series with several seasons so that i've something to return to at night, like a, like a ritual almost.

[124] Yeah, like a familiar, reliable, relaxing ritual.

[125] Got it.

[126] And I have been watching a lot of comedies because I've needed it.

[127] Sure.

[128] I found this one that I love so much.

[129] And it's called W1A.

[130] It's a BBC series that has three seasons.

[131] It stars Hugh Bonneville, the dad from Downton Abbey.

[132] Okay.

[133] That they call him Dad.

[134] Joe, what am I saying?

[135] It has, oh, wait, sorry, because I actually printed up this cast because it's, it really is a cast of, like, all the great British actors.

[136] Yeah.

[137] And it's about executives at the BBC, you know, it's very satirical.

[138] Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[139] But very hilarious.

[140] And one of the people in it is an actress name Monica Dolan.

[141] I know that name.

[142] Yes, because she played Rose White.

[143] West inappropriate adult that fucking unbelievably disturbing it's about the Fred and Rosed West that Dominic I want to say Monaghan but that's not the right name the guy from the wire okay who nobody could believe was actually British the dark care guy keep telling me things as if I'm going to get it like you're so generous to me that as if I've ever gotten a name in my fucking life when we've done this and you and also it's always i'm sure to you obscure whereas to me i'm like it's the stars of british television and you're like uh -huh i try to play along but here's the thing about okay so uh monica dolin plays rose west in appropriate adult if you haven't seen appropriate adult it is the true crime story of when fred west got arrested for the murders that the west the West's as a couple committed they murdered uh i think it was over 10 young women horrible horrible story and they buried them yeah in their house near in the backyard yeah horrifying so monica dolin plays rose west and she is so disturbing yeah and so horrifying like you don't forget it and she ended up she won a bafta for best supporting actress for that role but in w1a she plays she plays the senior communications officer named Tracy Pritchard, who's Welsh.

[144] And she starts every sentence by going, I'm not trying to be funny or anything.

[145] And it is so hilarious.

[146] She's super serious, but she is so funny.

[147] Okay.

[148] And there's all these other people in it that you know from all of your favorite British television.

[149] Me, WNA.

[150] W1A.

[151] Okay.

[152] It's a great workplace comedy, but it's also very much like it's so culturally British that it felt like I was.

[153] A cozy Pendleton, wrapping yourself up in a cozy Pendleton.

[154] In British culture and accent.

[155] That's right.

[156] Yeah.

[157] I have a show to suggest totally not funny and completely on a left -hand turn signal with a signal.

[158] With no signal, L .A. style?

[159] Yeah.

[160] Dope sick on Hulu.

[161] Wow.

[162] It's based off this book that's true.

[163] But this is like dramatized.

[164] And it's Michael fucking Keaton who's like so incredible.

[165] but it's the story of how OxyContin was fucking tricked into the mainstream and how evil the Sackler family is and how fucking evil like it is that OxyContin was even fucking introduced into the society.

[166] And so it's all, it's Caitlin Devere, who I'm such a huge fan of, and Michael fucking Keaton.

[167] Oh, and fucking Peter Sarsgaard with the worst to pay I've ever fucking seen.

[168] I mean, it's distracting.

[169] Great.

[170] Just let the man be bald.

[171] Like, it's sexy.

[172] Is he bald?

[173] In this photo, he is.

[174] Oh, yes.

[175] I find it very sexy.

[176] Obviously, my husband is without hair.

[177] Oh, we over here at the My Favorite Burner podcast are number one fan of bald men.

[178] That's right.

[179] And people across the nation.

[180] When you start turning down guys because they're losing their hair because they're short, you're missing out on a whole population of good people.

[181] You know, you are a dummy.

[182] Me?

[183] No. That sounded like you disagreed with me. I was doing a callback to you calling people under 35 dummies.

[184] Maybe I'm just reading too much Reddit.

[185] I'm just like, you know what you are?

[186] A dummy.

[187] Sorry, this is another left turn with no signal.

[188] We refuse to let people know where we're going.

[189] Dope sick.

[190] Dope sick.

[191] I'm going to watch that.

[192] Excellent.

[193] Sad, depressing.

[194] Good.

[195] yeah there's so much there's so much of that out there these days but you know what i'm going to switch this to a book that i've read recently my therapist recommended it i told my therapist i was having lots of um like feelings real time which i'm not used to and do not approve of or like in any way and she was like oh i that it's so good that's so good to hear it sounds like is it yeah she's like oh your vulnerability is catching up with you it's very good it's going to keep you in the moment.

[196] She goes, here's the book you have to read.

[197] It's called The Whole Language, the Power of Extravagant Tenderness by Gregory Doyle.

[198] So Father Gregory Doyle is the priest who started the Homeboy Industries Foundation.

[199] It's the most successful gang intervention program in the world.

[200] Amazing.

[201] And he started it right there in Boyle Heights in Los Angeles.

[202] And a lot of in L .A. kind of know his work or are even slightly familiar with the kind of work he's been doing.

[203] You have to read, or the audiobook is even better because Father Gregory is the one that's narrating it.

[204] So he's telling his own stories of just and they go from, oh my God, it's like I just was crying the entire time because there are these beautiful stories of like people trying to turn their lives around, redemption, forgiveness, people who are in rival gangs working side by side and putting their differences aside and putting their lives together.

[205] Yeah.

[206] And it's just beautiful.

[207] I couldn't believe how amazing this book was.

[208] Sounds like a lot of hope, which I think we need right now.

[209] For sure.

[210] If you're in a especially sensitive place or even in a dark place, I promise you, listen to this book.

[211] It's so great to hear him talking.

[212] Yeah, okay, I'm going to download it.

[213] It just gives you really an amazing sense of perspective.

[214] and also you just it's all these stories about people who are trying who are just trying against all odds and succeeding and it's really beautiful okay I'm fucking on it it's great say the name of it again it's called the whole language the power of extravagant tenderness and it's just kind of about you know he is a Catholic priest obviously he's a Jesuit priest but he's his whole thing is just kind of about God as a loving accepting God and not this kind of weird way people who are quote unquote religious like to use the concept of God against each other and to other people and to keep them out and how the point of all of it is to include people and let them redeem themselves.

[215] It's very, it's really eye -opening, especially in a lot of the stuff that we talk about.

[216] It's so easy to be up on like, you know, our high horse or way the fuck away from any truth of what people's lives are like when they get into crime.

[217] Right.

[218] Although we're usually talking about serial killers, which is a completely different thing.

[219] I think joining a gang is so much more nuanced than I think what people expected and think and have these judgments over it.

[220] It's really coming from a place of trauma and lack of options.

[221] Yeah, hard lives and yeah.

[222] Yeah.

[223] So I love that.

[224] As someone who's not even religious, I love that.

[225] I love the AA kind of thing of you have to find a higher power.

[226] It doesn't have to be God.

[227] I think so many people need that and good for them and who might argue that.

[228] Right.

[229] Hope.

[230] It's so important.

[231] Yeah, it really is.

[232] These days especially, I think it's like the whole vibe behind this book is really moving and really kind of feels like it actually could change things.

[233] It's really cool.

[234] Right.

[235] Speaking of changing things, I want to change the subject and talk about exactly right?

[236] I really hate that segue so much.

[237] You love it.

[238] No. It's corn ball.

[239] Come on.

[240] You're a dummy.

[241] you meant it that time that's what it sounds like when you mean it and I should have known it's just louder that's all uh Nick Terry put up a new MFM animated it's Halloween based it's fucking hilarious it's based off of a hometown episode I mean go to our YouTube exactly right media channel to check it out and all the fucking Nick Terry's are up there too yes oh and also we have now in the merch store we have magnetic poetry kids And I never before has a magnetic poetry kit had the word fuck in it so many times.

[242] I apologize to everyone in my family, in my extended family.

[243] But it's hilarious.

[244] They were getting it for Christmas.

[245] Denton sent me one.

[246] And I was just like, this is, this is what kind of poems do you write with the word fuck in it that many times?

[247] And all our animals names are in it too, which is great.

[248] And a bunch of the quotes up that, you know, that you know and love from the podcaster.

[249] in there.

[250] It's pretty funny.

[251] I think you could do something.

[252] And then so tag us on Instagram when you do post something.

[253] And then the most exciting thing that we have to announce to you is we're starting a brand new.

[254] It's basically a new minisode and it's the new series Celebrity Hometowns.

[255] So basically we get our famous friends to come on and tell us their hometowns and we kick it off with NBC Dateline's legendary host, Josh Mankowitz.

[256] Josh Mankowitz is so rad.

[257] He's totally a friend of the family.

[258] And so he's so, he's so fun to talk to.

[259] He's fascinating.

[260] The story he tells on this minisode is freaking awesome.

[261] We could have talked to him for hours about it.

[262] And we have some great ones coming up.

[263] We have a bunch of really cool people.

[264] So the newest Celebrity Hometown started in your feed yesterday.

[265] And we'll continue through the end of the year.

[266] We're super excited.

[267] It's all on Wednesdays.

[268] And yeah, what a fun.

[269] It's just an extra episode, really, an extra minisode.

[270] So be sure to rate, review, and subscribe to these.

[271] It really helps us out.

[272] And also follow exactly right on Instagram, Twitter and Facebook for updates on all of our shows.

[273] All right.

[274] Business portion.

[275] Boom.

[276] Done.

[277] Boom.

[278] I think I should pee real quick.

[279] Do it.

[280] Are you mad?

[281] I called you a dummy?

[282] No, I think you're a dummy for calling me a dummy.

[283] Perfect.

[284] Now we're even.

[285] Karen, you know I'm all about vintage shopping.

[286] Absolutely.

[287] And when you say vintage, you mean when you physically drive to a store and actually purchase something with cash?

[288] Exactly.

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[301] Important note, that promo code is all lowercase.

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[303] today.

[304] That's shopify .com slash murder.

[305] Goodbye.

[306] It's you.

[307] Well, here we go.

[308] As you know, this weekend is spookey Halloween.

[309] Trademark.

[310] Trademark.

[311] So, I thought it'd be fun to do a spooky themed story.

[312] So this is the mysterious death of Edgar Allan Poe.

[313] Even just got visible chills.

[314] Yeah.

[315] Yeah.

[316] You know about this?

[317] His mysterious death.

[318] Was it the thing where he buried his heart under the floor and then he kept hearing it beating?

[319] No, that's a different.

[320] That's another story.

[321] That's a different part of author's death.

[322] The sources I use today are the Smithsonian Magazine, the Edgar Allan Poe House and Museum, the Edgar Allen Poe Society of Baltimore, a PBS American Masters documentary, which I highly recommend, and the Poe Museum.

[323] So, as you know, there's so much out there about Edgar Allan Poe.

[324] There are multiple biographies about him that are over 600 pages long.

[325] So there's a lot to say about him.

[326] And I have 600 pages of info about him right now.

[327] Let me sit back.

[328] Settle it.

[329] No, I'm just going to go over some basics and then get to the mysterious death.

[330] So let me tell you, let me tell you a little bit about Edgar Allan Poe.

[331] Okay.

[332] On January 19th, 1809, Edgar, which is a great fucking name, it should come back, don't you think?

[333] Nope.

[334] Is born to parents Eliza and David Poe.

[335] Eliza was a well -known actress at the time.

[336] And they have three kids together and then David abandons her and the family, which is shitty.

[337] And then by the time Edgar is almost three, his beloved mother dies of tuberculosis at just 24.

[338] years old.

[339] Oh, no. I know.

[340] So, number one in him being a macabre, right?

[341] Yeah.

[342] First hit.

[343] Luckily, an, quote, elite upper class couple, John and Francis Allen take Edgar in.

[344] Hence, Edgar Allen.

[345] Oh, got it.

[346] He adores his really kind foster mom, but his foster dad is a fucking hard -ass dick who never really accepts Edgar as his, like, Ken. He moves with them to Richmond, Virginia, and his name becomes Edgar Allan Poe.

[347] But he doesn't actually ever use the name Alan himself because of his hatred of his foster dad.

[348] So actually, when he writes letters and signs them, it's Edgar Poe, which is interesting.

[349] So he's intelligent and rebellious.

[350] He begins writing poetry at a young age by 17.

[351] He's engaged to marry a woman name Elmira Royster.

[352] But he's also set to attend the University of Virginia in Charlottesville.

[353] Elmira swear she'll wait for Poe to finish college, you know, as you do when you're young and in love.

[354] So he heads off to college and soon finds out he doesn't have enough money to pay for college because his stepdad's like, or his foster dad's like, fuck you, why should I fucking pay for it?

[355] So Edgar Allan Poe goes into gambling debt trying to earn money to pay for college.

[356] He isn't able to earn enough.

[357] He becomes like creditors coming after him, bad people coming after him.

[358] So he moves back to Richmond.

[359] Once he's home, Elmira, he finds out it had broken her promise.

[360] So yet another heartbreak.

[361] She was engaged to someone else.

[362] Heartbroken, Poe moves to Boston, and there he eventually publishes his first book of poetry, Tamerlane and other poems.

[363] After a two -year stint in the army and even joining and quitting West Point for a while.

[364] At 22, he moves to Baltimore, did I already say that, where he lives with relatives, including his aunt Maria Clem and her daughter, Virginia.

[365] He's actually happy here finding a real sense of family in his relatives.

[366] During his four years in Baltimore in the early 1830s, he switches from poems to short stories.

[367] So this is the Gothic, like Victorian era where the culture of death is pretty normal.

[368] It's romanticized.

[369] People were dropping dead all the time from sudden illness or slowly withering away from TB and women died in childbirth regularly and so did their babies.

[370] So it's a time period where death is really the norm.

[371] And you see a lot of those portraits of people, of dead people before they're buried, you know, those creepy ones we all see.

[372] Yeah.

[373] Memento morays.

[374] So little mementos of the dead.

[375] Like you get like a ring that has the dead.

[376] person's braided hair in it, which you can still find on like Etsy.

[377] And elaborate Gothic cemeteries become the norm.

[378] So there's that macabre feeling in the air.

[379] And so stories that he writes that are super macabre just flourish.

[380] So Poe publishes his first horror story, which leads to him accepting an offer to be a writer for the periodicals, the Southern literary messenger in Richmond, in which he kind of gets to do whatever he wants.

[381] And once he settled in Richie, Poe's aunt that he had lived with Maria Clem and cousin Virginia move in with him.

[382] Does he marry his cousin?

[383] Sure.

[384] Is she 13 and he's 27?

[385] Oh.

[386] Of course all that happens.

[387] What a time.

[388] What a terrible time for 13 -year -olds.

[389] So in 1837, Poe leaves the messenger, moves to Philadelphia, publishes many of his famous pieces at this point, like the telltale heart, the pit and The Pendulum, the murders in the Rue Morg, which is the world's first modern detective story.

[390] In 1845, Poe publishes his most famous work, The Raven.

[391] It's an overnight success, and he becomes a household name.

[392] He's invited to take on literary clients and give lectures, and he's the first American writer to live completely off the money he makes writing.

[393] Wow.

[394] I know.

[395] He becomes like a famous fucking author.

[396] Obviously, that's what I just said.

[397] according to the Poe Museum quote Poe wrote in many genres but his contribution to horror is what makes him famous today Poe revolutionized the genre he was one of the first to involve deep intuitive psychological horror sadly two years after the Raven is published Poe's wife 15 year old Virginia I know dies of tuberculosis he never recovers from her death having lost the person he relies on for mental and emotional support so all these women in his life, his foster mother from before had died, just all these tragedies in his life.

[398] He moves back to Richmond.

[399] And there he starts, remember old Elmira who had a name?

[400] Yeah.

[401] He starts seeing her again.

[402] Oh, yeah.

[403] She broke up with the...

[404] They both were widowed.

[405] Oh, okay.

[406] So they were like, hey, what's up?

[407] Yeah.

[408] Let's rekindle this thing.

[409] In 1849, they get engaged.

[410] On September 27th, 1849, Poe leaves Richmond, heads to New York.

[411] He's going to grab his aunt Maria Clem, who he still, of course, loves and bring her back to Richmond for the wedding.

[412] The day after leaving Richmond, Poe's boat arrives in Baltimore.

[413] However, he doesn't ever make it to Philadelphia or New York because tragedy strikes.

[414] Mysterious tragedy.

[415] How does that sound?

[416] Mysterious tragedy befalls him.

[417] Befalls him.

[418] On October 3rd, a local election day, a man named Joseph Walker finds 40 -year -old Poe lying in a gutter outside of Baltimore polling site slash tavern.

[419] At this time, taverns are used as polling locations, and voters are rewarded for their vote with alcohol.

[420] Hey.

[421] I mean, get into the poll any way you can.

[422] And then shots.

[423] Shots, shots for everybody.

[424] Shots, shot, shots.

[425] According to the Smithsonian magazine, when Walker finds him, Poe is, quote, delirious, semi -conscious, and unable to move.

[426] And instead of his usual, like, fancy black wool suit, he's dressed in shabby, second -hand clothes, including a coat that's ripped, stained, faded, and ill -fitting.

[427] His pants are in the same condition, and his shoes are worn out at the heels, almost like someone switched his clothing on him.

[428] To top it all off, Poe is wearing a tattered palm leaf hat for some reason, which he never wore.

[429] Walker asked Poe if there's anyone who he can call to help him and Paul probably call on call he hands him a cell phone and says I am a time traveler tell no one of this exchange Poe gets enough energy to say the name Joseph E. Snodgrass another great name so Walker calls him he's a magazine editor who has like medical training as well Snodgrass arrives and sees that Poe is in bad shape Poe's taken by carriage to the hospital.

[430] He's delirious.

[431] He's in and out of consciousness for the next few days.

[432] And he's sometimes he's alert.

[433] Sometimes he's just screaming into the air.

[434] So delirious.

[435] However, he is never alert enough to tell anyone what led him to be wearing different clothes and be in the gutter.

[436] And on October 7th, Poe dies.

[437] But what caused his death, Karen?

[438] It seems like no one really knows for sure.

[439] In articles from the time of his death, There's only one reference to a cause.

[440] The Baltimore Clipper reported that he died from congestion of the brain, basically swelling of the brain.

[441] And according to the Edgar Allen Poe Society of Baltimore, death certificates weren't required at the time.

[442] And it doesn't see that anyone filed one for Poe.

[443] So swelling of the brain is commonly ruled as the cause of death for someone when the examiner was unsure of what really happened.

[444] So, yeah, cool, technology.

[445] Yeah.

[446] With all that being said, there are many people who refuse to believe swelling killed the famous mystery writer.

[447] Instead, they believe the truth lies in one of at least 26 published theories.

[448] I'm going to cover every single one.

[449] I do it.

[450] I'm going to sit back.

[451] I'm going to cover a few of them.

[452] Many theories involved alcohol.

[453] So it was well documented that Poe couldn't handle his liquor.

[454] He'd get like shit face staggering off just one drink.

[455] Oh.

[456] However, any theorist blaming alcohol considered.

[457] that months before he died, he also became, like, big in the temperance movement.

[458] So he wasn't a drinker.

[459] So him having died from alcohol seems unlikely.

[460] But the most likely reason people started assuming Poe died from alcohol abuse was due to this dude, Joseph Snodgrass.

[461] He used Poe's death as a way to spread the temperance movement himself.

[462] So he traveled the country and gave talks where he, like, exaggerated the story of Poe's death and blamed it on alcohol.

[463] The people who were with Poe on his final days agree that alcohol was involved, but they're unsure of, like, how he got to that point since he didn't drink.

[464] And it also fails to explain his five -day disappearance or the fact that he had his clothes changed.

[465] Right.

[466] So samples of Poe's hair were tested recently to see if he was drinking before his death.

[467] And the results showed that he had low levels of lead in his body, meaning that he was most likely sober when he died.

[468] Then one of the first theories to stray from alcohol came from biographer E. Oaks Smith.

[469] In 1867, she wrote an article where she theorized that he was the victim of a beating.

[470] She called that like ruffians maybe beat him up to avenge that he possibly had beat up a woman himself.

[471] But there's no proof of that at all.

[472] And then there are other theories around medical problems.

[473] Colora is one of the big ones.

[474] Also, when people, hose hair was tested for lead, scientists look for mercury as well.

[475] And they found that he had elevated levels of mercury in the months before he died, which makes sense because in July of 1849, after he was exposed to a cholera epidemic in Philadelphia, a doctor prescribed him like mercury chloride, which would have given mercury poisoning.

[476] It feels like back then with a mystery like this, there are so many things that could kill you, like.

[477] Legit, legit theories.

[478] Yeah, like, wasn't there, there was a thing where, like, the color green, they would dye dresses with the color green that would poison you if you wore the dress.

[479] Yeah.

[480] Or wallpaper that was a certain color green.

[481] I don't know if that was in the United States or in England.

[482] But, I mean, like, it just seemed like, like, Mercury was like, oh, do you have a toothache here?

[483] Yeah.

[484] It's also the character of the Mad Hatter.

[485] There were Mad Hatters because of, what was it, the glue they used?

[486] to make hats, made them go fucking insane.

[487] Yeah, it wasn't the safest era.

[488] There wasn't a lot of workplace safety protocols.

[489] No, is your baby crying or lethargic?

[490] Give him some cocaine for babies.

[491] And it would also explain the hallucinations in delirium before he died.

[492] But some say it's possible that Poe had a brain tumor.

[493] So 26 years after he died, Poe's coffin was dug up so it could be relocated to a different part of the cemetery.

[494] his coffin was in bad shape and so when the workers tried to move it the coffin fell apart which you know that kind of probably did on purpose because some scientists gave him some money to be like we want to we want to look at his body yeah hey why don't you drop his coffin then that makes me think of did you watch the most recent season of i think you should leave it's the tim roans yes when he has coffin drops coffin drops right it's the reality show the like prank reality show where yeah where bodies just fall out of the bottom of coffins.

[495] Coffin flops or coffin drops, Stephen?

[496] And why are they all naked?

[497] Yeah, they're all naked.

[498] So insane.

[499] It's so stupid.

[500] It's coffin flop.

[501] Coffin flop.

[502] Coffin flop.

[503] So, okay, so his remains fall out.

[504] Super fun.

[505] And when a skull was picked up, there's a mass rolling around inside of it.

[506] And at first they were like, oh, this is the brain.

[507] But no, the brain's like the first thing to deteriorate.

[508] And so one doctor speculated that the mass could have been like a calcified tumor.

[509] Still, it just seems like that, like from afar, a theory like that after with a body that had been buried in a while isn't super reliable.

[510] You know what?

[511] A mass is a hard mass also called a rock sometimes.

[512] Yes.

[513] I mean.

[514] Other theories include tuberculosis, pneumonia, epilepsy, diabetes, even rabies.

[515] Hmm.

[516] But the most sinister theory.

[517] for this spooky Halloween is that Poe was murdered.

[518] This comes from the author John Evangelist Walsh who believes that the brothers of Poe's fiancé Elmira killed him.

[519] He thinks that Poe did make it to Philadelphia but was ambushed by Elmira's brothers who told them not to marry their sister and so he was so scared that he disguised himself in a new outfit to like thwart them and hidden Philadelphia and then went back to Richmond so he could marry El Maira, but in Baltimore, her brothers found him, beat the shit out of him, and forced him to get shit -faced knowing that he couldn't drink, and that's what led to him dying in a gutter.

[520] That's very involved.

[521] It is very complicated.

[522] Yeah.

[523] But it would, yeah, no. The most commonly accepted theory is that Poe was a victim of cooping.

[524] Now, this to me is the fucking, I've always just been so troubled by this idea.

[525] I've never heard of this.

[526] Okay.

[527] Cooping, according to the Smithsonian Magazine, was an actual method of voter fraud practiced by gangs in the 19th century.

[528] So this is a known thing that would happen.

[529] And he was found outside of a tavern, which was a polling place.

[530] So basically, they'd take a victim.

[531] The victim would be kidnapped, forced to go vote.

[532] And then they'd get their reward of a drink.

[533] They would make them drink that.

[534] Then they would change them the guy into a disguise so he could go back and vote again.

[535] And so these would be hired by politicians to make sure they got more votes, essentially.

[536] But they would force them to drink every time, which doesn't, I mean, just that doesn't seem like it.

[537] But that's what they did.

[538] It's like undisputed it.

[539] You know what it makes me think of is like then if the person's drunk, they're automatically, there's not a lot of empathy.

[540] It's the same thing as when you've heard of like stories where people get kidnapped and then they shoot them up with drugs.

[541] So it's like, well, you're a drug user.

[542] so what you say doesn't have any merit.

[543] Right.

[544] Or you're more pliable and less able to do whatever they say.

[545] And yeah, he's more easily confused.

[546] Yeah.

[547] I mean, that seems right on the money with all the details of what you've described.

[548] Exactly.

[549] And it was a known thing.

[550] It wasn't just a made -up, you know, theory.

[551] So many cooping victims would consume tons of alcohol since they were voting multiple times.

[552] And once the coopers were done with the voters, they just let them wander off completely shit -faced.

[553] So if he had more than one drink, he was totally screwed.

[554] So he could have died from alcohol poisoning because he had been kidnapped by Coopers.

[555] Many think this theory is plausible because the gutter was he was found and was outside the polling site.

[556] And it was a polling site where Coopers were known to bring victims.

[557] Not to mention Poe was found on an election day.

[558] So but in the end, Poe's cause of death, like what most people think is that it was swelling of the brain.

[559] But who knows why, you know?

[560] And it seems that many people want Poe's death to be mysterious, you know, because of his work.

[561] And he's still an icon.

[562] His story has completely changed literary word.

[563] And dying from brain swelling just isn't that romantic.

[564] Yeah.

[565] For someone as legendary is Edgar Allan Poe.

[566] But one last mystery, just to keep it on that note, the attending physician, Dr. John J. Morgan, said that the night before he died in his delirium, he called repeatedly, out for someone named Reynolds.

[567] But to this day, the identity of this person named Reynolds remains a mystery.

[568] Ooh.

[569] That is the mysterious death of Edgar Allen Poe.

[570] Wow, that's good.

[571] Yeah.

[572] I knew nothing of any of it.

[573] Oh.

[574] You're such a literary master.

[575] Yeah.

[576] Clearly.

[577] I mean, no, that's fascinating.

[578] Yeah.

[579] Also, just that idea of like, all, now we have to add cooping to all the ways you could die back then.

[580] What a shitty way to die.

[581] What a time.

[582] Yeah, what a time.

[583] Just roving gangs, you know, in their fucking cool clothes.

[584] Yeah, it's like, was it gangs of New York?

[585] Or it's just like, the rabbits.

[586] We're the rabbits.

[587] That's a great movie.

[588] Well, my story has nothing to do with your story whatsoever.

[589] I can't connect it or do an interesting segue.

[590] Good.

[591] There it was.

[592] Yeah.

[593] But it is, it's a story most people have heard about, but I didn't know any details of.

[594] So this is the case of Sintoya Brown.

[595] Okay.

[596] Sources for this, Wikipedia, an NPR article by Bobby Allen, a New York Times article by Christine Hauser, Time article by Katie Riley, Lainey Barron wrote an article for Time magazine or Time .com.

[597] Sharon Lynn Pruitt wrote an article for oxygen.

[598] Mahita Gajanan wrote an article for Time.

[599] Rebecca Seals wrote a BBC news article, Samantha Max wrote an article for the WPLN News, Nashville Public Radio, and John Garcia wrote an article for the Tennessean, and all of those articles have very long titles, so I figured I would just cite this source and the journalist, and then you can go and look this up.

[600] Okay, so this starts with the murder of Johnny Allen.

[601] So on the night of August 6, 2004, 16 -year -old Sintoya Brown stands in the parking lot of a sonic drive -in in Nashville, Tennessee, when she's approached by 43 -year -old Johnny Michael Allen.

[602] Allen is an Army veteran turned real estate agent who also serves as a youth pastor at the Lakewood Baptist Church, where he's also started a homeless ministry.

[603] But tonight, he is propositioning a 16 -year -old girl for sex.

[604] I think I know this one.

[605] Yeah.

[606] So Johnny Allen asked Sintoya if she's hungry and if she's, quote, up for any action.

[607] They agree on a price of $150, and Sintoya gets into his truck.

[608] But instead of going to a local motel, which is the standard practice, and in fact, Sintoya lived at a motel with her pimp and boyfriend.

[609] Instead, Alan takes Sintoya to his home.

[610] And once they're there, he shows her his very large gun collection, telling her that he used to be a sharpshooter in the army.

[611] She would later go on to say that she felt that this display was very threatening, but that's impossible to prove because she's the only one that was there.

[612] The two eat together, they watch TV, and then according to Sintoya, Alan takes her to his bedroom where he, quote, grabs her in between her legs real hard.

[613] So basically, he initiates sex very violently.

[614] She already feels threatened.

[615] It then turns violent.

[616] He reaches under the bed for something.

[617] She will later go on to testify.

[618] And Sintoya believes that what he's reaching for is a gun.

[619] So she pulls a 40 caliber handgun out of her purse and she shoots him in the back of the head.

[620] Oh my God.

[621] She's just 16.

[622] 16 years old.

[623] So she then grabs the cash that's in his wallet.

[624] She takes two of his guns, jumps in his truck, and drives away.

[625] She gets to a Walmart parking lot and ditches his truck there.

[626] She then hitches a ride with someone back to her home at the In -Town Suites Motel.

[627] And that's where her pimp, Garian L. McLaughin, whose nickname is Cutthroat, is waiting.

[628] So the next morning, August 7, 2004, the police come to the motel room, and Sintoya is arrested and charged with first -degree murder, aggravated robbery, and a legal possession of a handgun.

[629] Three months later, on November 14, 2004, a judge rules that 16 -year -old Sintoya can be tried as an adult, claiming that she is too dangerous to be tried in the juvenile court system.

[630] Jesus.

[631] So, Sintoya never denies killing Allen, but she argues that she did it in self -defense.

[632] The prosecution claims that Sintoya planned to rob and kill him all along.

[633] Their first piece of evidence is the forensics report that shows Allen's body was positioned laying on the bed and that his hands were interlocked behind his head, which contradicts her claim that he was reaching under the bed when she shot him.

[634] The prosecution also introduces Sintoya's August 14, 2004 psych evaluation into evidence.

[635] It states that while at the Western Mental Health Institute, Sintoya asked to call her adoptive mother, but the nurse would not let her.

[636] And then, according to this nurse's account, Sintoya responds by leaping over the desk, grabbing this nurse by her hair, hitting her, and saying, quote, I shot that man in the back of the head one time, bitch, I'm going to shoot you in the back of the head three times.

[637] I'd love to hear your blood spatter on the wall, end quote.

[638] And another hospital employee corroborates this story in court.

[639] So they also present allegations that Sintoya told a fellow inmate that she killed out.

[640] Allen, quote, just to see how it felt to kill somebody, and that she even wrote a note confessing to the crime.

[641] A forensic document examiner tells the court that they believe the note was indeed written by Sintoya's hand.

[642] But the defense paints a much different picture.

[643] They argue that Johnny Allen was not the good man of faith that his friends and family believed him to be, but that he was a predator who exploited and threatened underage sex workers.

[644] They claim her shooting was a clear -cut act of self -defense so the defense has several witnesses whose experiences with alan corroborate this dark side of him how one woman who once went on a date with alan testifies that after accepting invitation to go back to his home he began to kiss her and when she told him she didn't want to have sex he raped her the defense also has a story from a 17 -year -old girl who says that allan frequented the restaurant where she worked, but he was so inappropriate and basically creepy with the young waitresses that she and her co -workers would argue over who had to go to his table.

[645] Oh, God.

[646] And once he left her a note on the back of a business card saying, quote, you're gorgeous, I'd love to take you out sometime, so let me know.

[647] The judge, however, doesn't let this witness testify in front of the jury calling her testimony irrelevant to the case.

[648] I'm sorry.

[649] Sintoya Brown does not take it.

[650] the sand during her own trial.

[651] And when it ends in August of 2006, Sintoya Brown is found guilty of first degree murder and aggravated robbery.

[652] So in October of 2006, she's sentenced to life with the possibility of parole after serving at least 51 years.

[653] Jesus.

[654] So the possibility of parole when she's 67.

[655] She's placed in a maximum security prison, the Tennessee prison for women in Nashville.

[656] So we'll go into her background a little bit.

[657] but Sintoya Brown was born on January 29th, 1988 in Fort Campbell, Kentucky to a 16 -year -old young mother.

[658] And her mother's birth was the result of a rape that her mother, Sintoya's grandmother, had endured.

[659] Oh, my God.

[660] So she had a hard life from the beginning.

[661] Sintoya's mother struggles with alcoholism and addiction to crack cocaine.

[662] And she drank while she was pregnant with Sintoya, giving Sintoya feel alcohol syndrome.

[663] because Sintoya's father is not around and because her mother is in and out of prison Sintoya is put up for adoption so she's placed in a loving supportive home but the trauma of her early childhood is more than she or her adoptive family can manage as a minor Sintoya commits various crimes and she's taken into the custody of the Department of Children's Services from April 2001 through September 2003 she's placed in various youth development centers around Tennessee and she almost always runs away.

[664] She's found, returned.

[665] And then finally, she eventually just escapes entirely.

[666] And by August 2004, she's living on the streets of Nashville.

[667] And that's when she meets cutthroat, a pimp with a long criminal history of his own, including drug use, assault, and rape.

[668] He claims Sintoya as his own.

[669] He beats and rapes her into submission and then traffics her for sex as a minor while the two live together in their motel room at the in -town suites.

[670] God.

[671] Okay, so while Sintoya is in prison for this murder, she earns her GED through an in -prison schooling program in March of 2005.

[672] She's also described as a model prisoner.

[673] And then in 2010, or between 2010 and 2011, a documentary filmmaker named Daniel Berman contacts Sintoya, He's been following her case since her arrest, and he wants to profile her for a PBS special.

[674] So she agrees, and in March of 2011, the film, Me Facing Life, Cintoya's story, airs, and it gives Cintoya the chance to present her side of the story to the public.

[675] The documentary, which aired nationally, brings more attention to Centoya's case.

[676] With the new information about her background being brought to light, her defense attorneys push for a new trial in November of 2012.

[677] They hope to use the fact of her fetal alcohol syndrome and the abuse she's suffered as a child to make the case that she is also a victim.

[678] Yeah.

[679] The attempt is unsuccessful.

[680] In jail, Sintoya focuses on her studies and in December of 2015, she earns an associate degree in liberal arts through Lipscomb University's prison schooling program.

[681] She has a 4 .0 GPA.

[682] Wow.

[683] Yeah.

[684] Later in May of 2019, she gets her bachelor's of professional studies in organizations.

[685] leadership from the same school, and again, with a 4 .0.

[686] Jesus.

[687] I know.

[688] She also uses her experience to mentor other young girls who are in prison.

[689] Wow.

[690] So in between 2016 and 2017, Dan Berman releases another documentary.

[691] This time it's a seven -part series in partnership with PBS and a reporter for the Tennessean named Anita Wadwani.

[692] And this series is called Sentencing Children, in which, um, they follow up on Sintoya's case.

[693] This time, it's right, this basically, this documentary comes out right as the Me Too movement is really starting to gain ground, both in Hollywood and on social media.

[694] And the release of sentencing children helps Sintoya's case again get support, but this time from celebrities.

[695] So Kim Kardashian, Rihanna, and LeBron James are all retweeting and, and like, promote.

[696] promoting the hashtag free Sintoya Brown.

[697] So basically her whole story goes viral and people really start paying attention.

[698] So petitions calling for her release gained hundreds of thousands of signatures nearing the end of his term, Tennessee governor Bill Halsam starts feeling the pressure to grant Sintoya clemency.

[699] Wow.

[700] So the push for commuting Sintoya's sentence gains legal footing in June of 2012 with the U .S. Supreme Court ruling that prohibits giving life sentences without.

[701] parole to minors yeah so even though Sintoya was technically eligible for parole after 51 years that five -decade weight is deemed unreasonable yeah so given the mounting pressure the Tennessee Supreme Court holds a public hearing on May 28th 2018 for Sintoya's clemency petition now this is incredibly rare yeah only 2 % of people in that position ever get this kind of second chance.

[702] So at the hearing, a long list of people testify Sintoya's defense.

[703] Her fellow inmates vouch for her good character.

[704] Her professors from Lipscomb University say what a great student she's been.

[705] Prison staff attest to her good behavior.

[706] Even the prosecutor who put her behind bars, Preston Ship, comes forward to speak on her behalf.

[707] Wow.

[708] Unprecedented.

[709] So the few people who testify against her at this hearing, include a friend of Johnny Allen's and the lead detective on this case, Detective Charles Robinson.

[710] He says, Robinson says, that she still presents a danger to society and that there's, quote, no evidence of her being trafficked as a child.

[711] If you have a pimp when you're 16, that's evidence.

[712] You live in a motel.

[713] You live on the streets.

[714] With a guy named cutthroat.

[715] so by the end of the hearing the parole board is split evenly in three with two members in favor of granting her immediate clemency two in favor of reducing her sentence so that she's eligible for parole in 25 years rather than 51 years and then two flat out denying any change in her sentence with the split decision leaving things up in the air advocates for centoya push the Tennessee Supreme court to commute her sentence on the grounds that it violates the ruling that was made in June of 2012, which prohibits life sentences with no parole for juveniles.

[716] But on December 6, 2018, the court rules that because there is a chance for parole after 51 years, it still falls within the legal guidelines of the statute.

[717] But the public outcry for Sintoya's freedom continues, and Governor Halsem gets an overwhelming number of phone calls and letters calling for him to grant executive clemency before his term is up in 2019.

[718] Detective Charles Robinson writes to Halsem, urging him again not to grant clemency.

[719] In his seven -page letter, he writes, Sintoya Brown did not commit this murder because she was a child sex slave, as her advocates would like you to believe, Sintoya Brown's motive for murdering Johnny Allen in his sleep was robbery.

[720] But the support and the evidence for Sintoya far outweighs the naysayers, and on January 7th, 2019, Governor Halsem commutes her sentence to 15 years.

[721] So he says that she'll have 10 years of supervised parole, but on August 7th, 2019, exactly 15 years from the day of her arrest, Sintoya Brown is released from prison.

[722] Wow.

[723] Noting the, quote, extraordinary steps Ms. Brown has taken to rebuild her life, Halsem states that, quote, society is better off with Sintoya.

[724] out of prison.

[725] Oh, my God.

[726] Okay, so in the immediate aftermath, Sintoya limits her interviews, making only a few public statements.

[727] She says, quote, I look forward to using my experience to help other women and girls suffering abuse and exploitation.

[728] Then a few months after her release, she's interviewed by the Today Show, by CBS News, and by the Associated Press.

[729] She also writes a memoir that's published in October of 2019 with the hope that it might lead to meaningful criminal justice reform.

[730] Since her case hit the national news, Tennessee has changed its laws so that there's no longer legal consideration for the term child prostitute.

[731] Anyone under age who is engaging in sex work is now considered a victim of child sex trafficking and will be treated as such even when they commit a crime.

[732] Oh my God.

[733] Yeah.

[734] So it actually did like the whole thing actually did like basically events change.

[735] Yeah.

[736] So Yasmin Vafa from Rights for Girls, which is an organization that fights against the sexual abuse to prison pipeline, notes that Sintoya's case is a, quote, really important reminder that we have to take a very nuanced approach to issues around criminal and juvenile justice reform.

[737] We have to understand the histories and backgrounds of young women and girls and what it is that's actually propelling them into this system.

[738] Right.

[739] A Netflix documentary is released in April of 2020 that's about Sintoya, but she did not authorize it.

[740] And she didn't, she was very unhappy at its lack of focus on criminal justice reform.

[741] Wow.

[742] Today, Sintoya lives with her husband, Jamie Long, and they've started a nonprofit called the Foundation for Justice, Freedom, and Mercy, which works to empower those who might be exploited by the criminal justice system.

[743] Sintoya Brown will remain on parole until 2029.

[744] So this past February, Sintoya gave a talk at the University of Tennessee, which was covered by the school newspaper, the UT Daily Beacon, and an article written by the editor -in -chief, Alexander DeMarco.

[745] And this is a quote from that article.

[746] Quote, Brown's journey in the judicial system is not a rarity.

[747] Oftentimes, a child's introduction into the juvenile court system begins through school.

[748] Then the choice to send that child to a facility, such as a juvenile prison rather than enroll them in preventative programs only furthers the child's involvement with the legal system and then Sintoya Brown is quoted as saying at this talk stop always thinking that you have to put a kid in a facility that should be the last resort facilities are horrible they are horrible so the first time Sintoya Brown was arrested was when she was 12 years old and that charge was for skipping school What the fuck?

[749] And she was immediately sent to a juvenile facility.

[750] No. Okay.

[751] So that's the story that I wanted to do and wanted to cover.

[752] Yeah.

[753] But what's fascinating is a couple weeks ago, ProPublica, the website ProPublica.

[754] They published a very disturbing story by journalists Maribah Knight from Nashville Public Radio and Ken Armstrong from a reporter for ProPublica.

[755] And it took place in Rutherford County, Tennessee, in April of 2016.

[756] So police officers went to Hobgood Elementary School and they arrested four little girls, a sixth grader, two fourth graders and a third grader who had been seen in the background of a YouTube video of an after school fight.

[757] So there was little boys fighting, a five -year -old and a six -year -old trying to fight an older boy.

[758] And then there was some kids standing around and some of them are yelling, no, no, no, don't do it.

[759] But basically they decided to try to arrest all the children in this video.

[760] All of these little girls were black.

[761] The youngest one was eight years old.

[762] Jesus.

[763] And the charge they were arrested on was, quote, criminal responsibility for the conduct of another.

[764] And that is not an actual charge.

[765] Okay.

[766] So, of course, there was uproar over.

[767] this decision to arrest these children at school.

[768] A couple of them were actually handcuffed.

[769] One little girl threw up.

[770] One drop to her knees.

[771] Like complete trauma.

[772] Yeah.

[773] Eleven children and all were arrested for being identified in this fight video.

[774] This is all in the pro -publica article.

[775] Yeah.

[776] They were able to identify these children because they found one of the kids whose name they knew.

[777] And they went and said, no one's going to get in trouble.

[778] Just tell us who else is standing around in this circle so we can we can basically tell them not to do this anymore so the one kid was tricked into giving names of all the other children in the video and then they were all arrested by the cops like at school one of the cops was wearing like a flack jacket like they were actually they were criminals yes so basically 11 children and all were arrested for being identified and they all eventually sued in federal court and got settlement.

[779] Basically, it got worked out.

[780] You have to read this article, though.

[781] I will, yeah.

[782] It's unbelievable the way this story, like, shakes out.

[783] And what you come to find is this shocking statistic that's that these reporters uncovered.

[784] So this is from the article, quote, among cases referred to juvenile court, the statewide average in Tennessee for how often children were locked up was 5%.

[785] In Rutherford County, it was 48%.

[786] Holy shit.

[787] So Rutherford County also detains children from other counties in Tennessee, and they charge $175 a day.

[788] Fucking racket.

[789] Lynn Duke, who runs Rutherford's County's juvenile detention center, once said at a public meeting, quote, if we have empty beds, we fill them with a paying customer.

[790] End quote.

[791] So there was also in this article a statistic about the county's budget.

[792] In 2005, the budget for juvenile services, including court and detention center staff, was a little under a million dollars, $9602 ,44.

[793] By 2020, it had jumped to almost $4 million.

[794] Holy shit.

[795] In Tennessee, Davidson County, where Sintoya Brown lived, and Rutherford County, where this story took place, share a border.

[796] And so basically there is a business that's taking place.

[797] This is the for -profit jail system.

[798] Oh, yeah.

[799] That's starting with children and people are making a profit and happily making a profit by sending children through these juvenile facilities.

[800] And especially at -risk children who are already living these trauma -filled lives of little to no possibility.

[801] Well, and what it seems like in this article is the only reason these kids, the 11 that were arrested in this video, the only reason they, all of this became an uproar is because all these parents were like, what in the hell do you think you're doing?

[802] Right.

[803] And they had people to advocate for them.

[804] Sintoya Brown skipped school, got arrested, went to a juvenile facility, and was in the pipeline.

[805] And that is the harrowing case of Sintoya Brown.

[806] amazing I had did not know all that information that is fucked up it's really dark but I think everybody has to read because now the pro public article came out on October 8th okay and definitely like I retweeted it lots of people engaged with it it was I don't know if it went viral per se but when you read the whole article because it is a long read and it's basically they start talking about this there's a judge in that county that is basically has this system set up this woman who's been who got voted in and has been there for like 20 years and they have rationalized how that basically for truancy for like they basically have decided why they get to arrest black children and get and like it's quote they've decided it's for their own good right it's they've rationalized all this well meanwhile all the numbers are saying is they're all making a ton of money off of it And it is, it's the kind of thing that, like, you know, this is the criminal justice reform issue that, like, we don't talk about stuff like that because serial killers are serial killers.

[807] That's like the specified kind of area that I got true crime.

[808] That's true, that you think of as true crime.

[809] And what I think is kind of amazing in 2020, in, you know, currently is how much that's changing where it's like you, whatever you're.

[810] interest might be in the can you believe Ted Bundy got away with it for so long it's now everyone's kind of turning their eyes to the rest of criminal justice and like all those murderinos we've met who are like I'm getting into criminal justice right because of this interest it's like people have to get into these systems and start making change amazing because the idea that people make money off of children going to juvie is insanely fucked up well they make money it because It's a revolving door, so then they become criminals as adults, and the for -profit prison just continues to make money.

[811] It's a fucking self -perpetuating system.

[812] I mean, honestly, as someone who was a 13 -year -old meth user in suburbia and white, I am very fucking aware of my privilege that when I got caught with it, I was given the option by the police officer.

[813] my mom was given the option to go to rehab and if I didn't go directly to rehab I had to go into Juvie.

[814] And it's like that I know that decision would not have been hers to make had I not been in a suburb and white.

[815] Yeah.

[816] A hundred percent, you know.

[817] And then when I went to rehab, it was all, you know, underprivileged girls.

[818] Well, also it makes me think of like the whole story of Sintoya's like her case and all the people that were testifying against her, who would test.

[819] justify for her right she's a she's a she's an underage sex worker who's been in the system and has a record right so it's almost like the the justification and the rationale is already there of like oh she's she started bad and she got worse right it's like if she stays out she's going to continue to do bad things very incredible for sharing that thank you so much yeah yeah so important uh yeah So it was upsetting as that story is we thought it would be a good idea to donate to rights for girls.

[820] So we're going to be sending them $10 ,000 to help them out with their very important work to try to make a difference with such an incredible and overwhelming issue that we have in this country.

[821] Yep.

[822] Awesome.

[823] All right.

[824] Well, thank you guys so much for listening.

[825] We, as always, appreciate you coming around.

[826] We appreciate you.

[827] We appreciate you.

[828] We appreciate you coming around, sticking around.

[829] sticking it out listening to our stories and yes sticking around for our left constant left turns yeah and uh you know stay sexy and don't get murdered goodbye goodbye Elvis do you want a cookie this has been an exactly right production our producer is Hannah Kyle Kreiton associate producer Alejandra Keck engineer and mixer Steven Ray Morris researchers J. Elias and Haley Gray send us your hometowns and your fucking hoorays at my favorite murder at gmail .com and follow the show on instagram and facebook at my favorite murder and twitter at my fave murder and for more information about this podcast our live shows merch or to join the fancult go to my favorite murder dot com rate review and subscribe