The Jordan B. Peterson Podcast XX
[0] Hello and welcome to season four, episode 49 of the Jordan Peterson podcast.
[1] In today's episode, Dad spoke with Mohamedu Old Slahi, a Mauritanian who was held by the U .S. for 14 years without charge or trial at Guantanamo Bay.
[2] If you've heard of the Mauritanian movie, then this episode will give you an exclusive insight into the torture sessions he endured, the depression he went through, and how he journaled up until the moment he was released.
[3] And that was part of what got him out of Guantanamo Bay.
[4] I had Mohamedu on my podcast and had to get him on dads.
[5] This is a story everyone should hear.
[6] This is one of the most positive people out there.
[7] If you're feeling sorry for yourself about something and you want a reminder of why that's not helpful, give this guy a listen.
[8] I hope you guys have a good week and enjoy the episode.
[9] If you do enjoy it, please remember to hit subscribe.
[10] This episode is brought to you by Helix.
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[40] I'm speaking today with Muhammad Uld Salahi, born December 21, 1970, who spent 14 years in Guantanamo Bay without being charged, arriving August 4th, 2002, released October 17th, 2016.
[41] He wrote a memoir in 2015 while still imprisoned.
[42] The U .S. government declassified it in 2012 with numerous redactions.
[43] It was the first work by a still -imprisoned Guantanamo detainee, published in 2015, became a international bestseller.
[44] It details Salahi's experience of being force -fed seawater, sexually molested, subjected to a mock execution, repeatedly beaten, kicked and smashed across the face, and all -spiced with threats that his mother would be brought to Guantanamo and gang raped.
[45] Prison officials prevented Salahi from receiving a copy of his published book.
[46] The Mauritania, a film adaptation of the memoir, was released on February 12th this year, directed by Kevin McDonald and starring Jody Foster to hire Rahim, Benedict Cumberbatch, and Shaline Woodley.
[47] He's been living in Mauritania since his release.
[48] He reattained his passport last year and has been attempting to gain permission to travel, not least to Germany to see his son.
[49] Thank you so much for inviting me today in your program, and I feel truly honored to talk to you and to your audience.
[50] My name is Mohamedu al -Silahi.
[51] I come from Mauritania.
[52] I was born in the south.
[53] My father was a camel herded.
[54] I don't know any father of mine who wasn't a camel herder of sort.
[55] And my dream was to grow, to be a camel herder, just like my father.
[56] But this dream was cut short because of the successive drought that hit the country in the 70s and the 80s.
[57] So all our camels died out.
[58] So died, I mean.
[59] And we had only very few that couldn't succeed.
[60] sustain the life of a big family.
[61] So we are 12 siblings from the same father and the same mother.
[62] So my mother decided single -handedly to move the family against the will of my father near the city for the children to find jobs and just to make a livelihood because my father was hanging on a dream that would never materialize.
[63] So he was living in this fantasy that he could recuperate, but that's...
[64] How many camels did your father have?
[65] And you were living in a rural area at that point, obviously.
[66] Yes.
[67] So I heard...
[68] So when I...
[69] The thing I remember, it's like a dozen, a little bit of a dozen.
[70] And then they became fewer and fewer.
[71] So when my father died, when I was 11, we had only like several, maybe three, four.
[72] And how did you survive?
[73] I mean, how is it possible for a family of that size to survive with that limited supply of livestock?
[74] What else was the family doing in order to keep everything together?
[75] So my father, my mother, decided that the kids need to abandon.
[76] this lifestyle and find jobs in the cities.
[77] So my oldest brother went to Senegal across the border.
[78] We were just at the border, southern border, to Senegal.
[79] And I was seven at that time.
[80] This was 78.
[81] And then the other kids found a job at bakeries and just to make ends meet.
[82] So we have the same plate.
[83] So we all contribute.
[84] They couldn't find a job for me because I was very weak and very small.
[85] Then the second best thing, they sent me to school.
[86] And it was by accident, and I didn't have a birth certificate.
[87] So we went to the school, the principal said he doesn't have birth certificate, but I accept him.
[88] And I want you to give me birth certificate.
[89] That's why you see my birth certificate has different, like, birth dates, sometimes no birthday, sometime, 35th, sometimes, 24th, sometime, 21st, sometime 1 -1.
[90] So anyway, and then I fell in love with school because I just loved it.
[91] And I remember this very hot day, very hot.
[92] When we say hot in Mauritania, it's really hot.
[93] And the school was, I just went the other day and I measured the distance.
[94] It was about two kilometers, that is over one mile.
[95] And I used to walk this distance back and forth twice a day because we have the morning class from 8 to 12 and the afternoon class from 3 to 5.
[96] So meaning I walk every day at least 8 kilometers, about 6 miles every day.
[97] and I didn't have shoes and I remember running and then my feet burn like beyond description then I would go to structures and the few trees to cool them down and then on my way this our neighbor which was like doing well she stopped me and started scolding me telling me why didn't you wear your shoes and then started telling me this is really bad and you should always wear your shoes and I was burning she was talking to me and I was burning and I was too ashamed Jordan to tell her that I didn't have money to buy shows my family was so poor we just came from the countryside and she just kept scolding me so I agreed to go back to my home and then pretend that I wear shoes, but instead I took another route where I avoided this woman.
[98] That's how we did.
[99] It's like I rarely ate meat because it didn't have money.
[100] And so, but I did well in school, even though like my family never asked me how I did.
[101] They didn't even understand the concept of passing from one class to the next.
[102] Were you the only sibling who went to school?
[103] Yes, me and the older one.
[104] And what kind of education did your parents have?
[105] Aside from Bedouin education, none.
[106] So Bedouin education where you learn how to read, to write, or like homeschooling, which is automatic.
[107] When I went to school, I know how to read and write because that's because we were like a book tribe, you know, a tribe that, you know, because you have in Mauritania like the tribes that carry weapons and the tribe that carry the books.
[108] So we carried the books.
[109] And what's the distinction between those two, what's the distinction between those tribes?
[110] I mean, obviously, books and weapons, but I've never heard that distinction drawn before.
[111] So what does that mean exactly?
[112] So it means it's like kind of a caste system that disappeared, but I saw it in my lifetime.
[113] So some tribes carry weapons and like build this emirate.
[114] Like they collect taxes and they provide security.
[115] and they, like, protect the borders.
[116] And some tribes, they don't carry weapons.
[117] They just carry the books.
[118] And then they take this religious leadership where they, like, organized religious ceremony, like marriage, like divorce, like jurisprudence, like kind of an unofficial judiciary.
[119] I see.
[120] And so there's no separation between those.
[121] functions in some sense and having the books.
[122] And what books?
[123] What are the characteristic books?
[124] Yes.
[125] So what we learn is mostly like grammar, Arabic grammar, and the Greek philosophy and religion, Quran, and the tradition, what we call hadif.
[126] And that's it.
[127] That's the extent of it, no languages, et cetera, et cetera.
[128] And what's the Greek philosophy?
[129] And you said that was taught at home?
[130] Yes, all of it.
[131] And so what did you learn about Greek philosophy?
[132] It seems like a rather strange intermingling.
[133] So how does that come about the mixture of Greek philosophy and education according to the Quran, let's say?
[134] Well, Jordan, so I didn't advance in this homeschooling to get to Greek philosophy because you have to be old enough.
[135] So the Islamic jurisprudence is based on what they call usul.
[136] And usul is derived from Greek philosophy.
[137] So the whole jurisprudence is derived from the logic of the Greeks.
[138] And we have already this discussion that in order to modernize our jurisprudence, Islamic jurisprudence, we have to learn Leibniz.
[139] And we have to learn about Einstein.
[140] We have to learn Descartes.
[141] because the Greek philosophy on which this whole Islam jurisprudence is built is outdated, obviously.
[142] And so.
[143] So, okay, so back to your schooling.
[144] So you came into the city.
[145] You couldn't find a job specifically.
[146] So you were sent off to school.
[147] And what kind of school was that?
[148] What did you learn there?
[149] And was it like a standard classroom that sort of, I mean a standard Western classroom?
[150] How was it organized?
[151] And what did you learn?
[152] So it was a French school system that the government inherited from the French colonial time and it was just different than the school system I'm used to at home because at home I can learn at my own pace and there are no test you know, you just learn what you want and then for as long as you want, which was much more advanced and much more better for me. But the school system, it was so much the French school system, there are so much pressure.
[153] So I had like very strict curriculum and I have to go with it even though if it's like quicker, I have to keep pace.
[154] And if it's like too slow, I have to wait.
[155] So I cannot, like, learn with my own pace.
[156] And so, and I did well, actually.
[157] So I was always number one until I graduated.
[158] Never was I number two.
[159] And I used, like, what I learned at home, you know, and it was a big advantage for me. And so as soon as I finished high school, I received a scholarship from Germany, you know.
[160] This is like wild.
[161] I'm a Bedwin.
[162] Right.
[163] Yeah.
[164] Did you even know what it meant at that point to receive a scholarship from Germany?
[165] No. It was all by accident, pure accident, because I really wanted to go to France because I loved, like, France, because there is so much advertisement.
[166] and I watch like French TV I like French music like what's her name I mean my name Melody Somatine what's her name again I forgot her name you know Mon Ami La Rose it's very known Yes Yes Yes, EDFPAF.
[167] Yeah, I love it.
[168] This is a great movie made of EDFPF's life.
[169] It's a brilliant movie, yes.
[170] Yeah, so I want France.
[171] This is all advertisement, you know, and the magazines.
[172] So I want to go to France, but I...
[173] Did you enjoy the French school?
[174] Did you enjoy the French school system?
[175] Or was it hard on you?
[176] You did well.
[177] So what was it like as an experience?
[178] I enjoyed a lot.
[179] But, you know, I enjoyed...
[180] I went to two schools at the same time.
[181] So I went to the traditional Koran school and the French school.
[182] I went to the Koran school because I loved the friendship in the mosque, you know, like what you would call in Canada Sunday school.
[183] I don't know whether you have it, but Americans always talk about.
[184] So I love this Sunday school because I have so much freedom so I can do whatever I want and there is no pressure whatsoever.
[185] And ironically, the thing I learned in the Sunday school, I mean, in the mosque, I retain them to this day because I chose to learn them.
[186] You know, and in the French school, yes, there was like some kind of pressure, especially during the test.
[187] I don't like tests.
[188] I think tests are the worst thing that the Western civilization has come up with.
[189] I don't think tests are horrible.
[190] Why should I test anyone?
[191] If you don't want to learn something, just don't learn it, you know.
[192] And if I was responsible for the system in my country, I would do away my first day with tests.
[193] No test.
[194] You just learn as you want.
[195] And if you are a doctor, you just go to the hospital and work in the hospital.
[196] Your senior doctors would know whether you are qualified or not.
[197] If you are a computer engineer, you just go find someone to show them what you learn, and then they will give you a job, and they will see whether you can do the job.
[198] Because test is not indicative of anything.
[199] Well, you had intrinsic motivation, obviously, and you loved to learn.
[200] So it was probably superfluous for you to have the pressure added.
[201] So you got a scholarship to Germany.
[202] What happened as a consequence?
[203] So it was 1988.
[204] I was only 70.
[205] And it was the first time any member of my family ever traveled abroad.
[206] Aside from Senegal, Senegal is just, it's very close.
[207] It was the first time any member of my family ever boarded a plane.
[208] It was, you know, it was amazing.
[209] And I, remember when the plane took off, I was frantically reading Quran.
[210] Because I memorized the Quran to this day.
[211] I know every single page.
[212] And this student who already went to France said, are you scared?
[213] I didn't know my answer, what was my answer, but actually I was scared.
[214] But I'm sure I told him I wasn't scared.
[215] Well, it's not surprising.
[216] I mean, first of all, you were on a plane for the first time and you're not familiar with them and then you're going to a completely foreign country and no one in your family has ever done that and tell me about the tribe you said you were from again from the from the tribe that was focused on books what's the tribal organization it's beyond the family obviously what what does it look like so a tribe is kind of a small country like the tribe a tribe is a family name so you have your tribe that's your family so if you are sick they will provide you if you get in trouble with another tribe they will go to the tribe and they will make peace if there is money that needs to pay they would pay the money let's say if you kill someone you know buy me, mistake.
[217] So your tribe will pay for the family who lost that person, you know, as like a kind of insurance.
[218] And I always say in Mauritania, we should adopt this tribal system, but the country should be one single tribe, just like in Canada.
[219] Canada is a big tribe because the Canadian state is the one that provides you with health insurance.
[220] they have set up insurance, damage insurance, to pay.
[221] And if you kill someone by mistake, your insurance pays, i .e., your tribe.
[222] And I think that's the best way I could describe what a tribe.
[223] I think it's...
[224] How many people would compose the tribe that you belonged to?
[225] How large was it about?
[226] I really, I don't have any scientific number, but I would say when I was growing up, I would like randomly say 100 ,000.
[227] And how many tribes are there in Mauritania?
[228] Do you know?
[229] A lot, a lot of tribe in all shape and form.
[230] Not only the warrior tribe, you have the warrior tribe, you have the book tribe, i .e. Zawai, and you have the all.
[231] almost serving tribes, like the tribe who provide services, like artists, this is like almost an independent tribe.
[232] And all they do is just like entertainment.
[233] And you have, unfortunately, I have to admit, we had slaves.
[234] They just like serve.
[235] You know, you own them and they serve you.
[236] In I think 81, this was abolished, you know, but we need to face up.
[237] to this horrific past and just...
[238] Well, we all have a lot of horrific past to face up to.
[239] Yes, unfortunately.
[240] Yes, unfortunately.
[241] Well, hopefully we can do better.
[242] That's the plan, right?
[243] So, all right, so you got on the plane and you read the Quran on the plane and you made it to Germany?
[244] You must have, it's no wonder you were afraid.
[245] I mean, what did you think was waiting for you there?
[246] So I had no clue.
[247] You know, I like surprises.
[248] Because when I was sitting like with one of the people in the studio, and then someone asked me, so what are you going to talk to Jordan about?
[249] I said, I have no clue.
[250] And then said, and I said, I don't care, whatever.
[251] And I like surprises.
[252] And I'm very curious, you know, just like you.
[253] And so we arrived in Paris because.
[254] I had to change there.
[255] There was no direct flight to Frankfurt.
[256] So I changed them.
[257] The first thing I saw in Paris, and I'm ashamed to say this, everything was clean.
[258] And everybody was wearing very tight clothes and everything was in place.
[259] And the woman were wearing very nice clothes.
[260] Everything was.
[261] And of course, that was the impression.
[262] Later on, I noticed that the clothes are really not very comfortable, you know, for some reason because the boo -boo and the African loose clothes were worn for a reason.
[263] And so I took my plane.
[264] I had, I had, I had, I had, I had, 80, I had in my pocket about $12.
[265] 12 or 13 dollars that the money that my family gave to me as a pocket money 12 or 13 and 18 francs 80 francs and so i took my plane and we arrived like 11 p .m in Frankfurt i did not speak english i did not speak German.
[266] So I came there and then they stamped my passport.
[267] And then for some reason with just everything, they showed me the hotel where I spent the night.
[268] And then it was Sheraton.
[269] For the first time Jordan, I sat in a room alone.
[270] And that was very scary because my family was big.
[271] My family was very loud.
[272] And every time, at every moment, someone is watching you.
[273] Right.
[274] So you were alone for the first time in a foreign country where you didn't speak the language.
[275] Yes, and alone physically with no one.
[276] Yes, right.
[277] Right.
[278] I understand.
[279] And that was very scary to me. And because I, in a very weird way, my privacy was defined by the people around it because they were my cocoon, you know, because I trust them.
[280] I'm not afraid of them.
[281] I could do everything in front of them.
[282] But now I'm alone.
[283] It was like the people I'm used to were filled with ghosts, but I'm afraid of ghosts.
[284] And then I took a shower and I did like just everyone.
[285] I love the towels.
[286] I love the small teeny tiny soup.
[287] I stole everything.
[288] I put it in my back.
[289] That was my first.
[290] theft and so I fell asleep watching German TV I didn't understand anything and then a friend of mine who came with me whose family is a little bit richer and they used to go to Paris not him he came knocked at my daughter said Muhammad do you know we can eat for free this is a hotel I said really I said yes he took me to the elevator.
[291] Last night I took elevator, but I was so tired.
[292] I didn't pay attention to this like miracle.
[293] You know, something that small room that you get into and then it stops.
[294] It's very disorientating because I didn't know how many stairs I made up and down.
[295] And then we went to this buffet very huge with a lot of people, white, people, European people by and large and I'm a small Bedouin and then there was everything.
[296] Eggs, all types of bread, marmalade, all kinds of teas.
[297] But this was the proverbial German dikval der Val.
[298] The torture of too many choices.
[299] I only use to in Mauritania, tea and bread.
[300] And when we were like, doing really good, they give me butter in my bread and marmalade, really good stuff.
[301] So this all was new.
[302] And I was telling myself, I need to eat something because I would look foolish and I would look strange if I don't eat something.
[303] Then I choose eggs because I know how to eat eggs.
[304] Or at least I thought.
[305] And then I sat there, I felt like everyone was looking at me everyone put everything down and I was the scene and then I broke the eggs it was not cooked very well and I hate half cooked eggs we say in Mauritania we say in Mauritania I found myself with thorny twigs between my legs so I couldn't move forward and neither could I move back.
[306] And so I thought, I need to get out of this place.
[307] And then I hid the egg somewhere and I drink that it was horrible.
[308] It was Lipton.
[309] I hate Lipton, you know.
[310] You know, I love my tea being very well cooked and very well brood, you know, because this is tasteless to me, like, you know, a bag.
[311] and hot water, there is no taste to it.
[312] So all that food, you got half -cooked eggs and bad tea.
[313] Talking about bad luck.
[314] And then we took the plane to the city of Zarbruchen at the border of Senegal, very close to Metz.
[315] No, no, Strasbourg.
[316] And so we took a small plane, and because a small plane was really very wobbly, I thought, God want to punish me. Now this plane is going to crash because I stole the soap from the hotel.
[317] And then I was really, so I was like praying frantically and I promised myself, I took upon myself, never to steal anything anymore.
[318] You know, if I survived this very bumpy ride.
[319] And we arrived at Zarbrican.
[320] I started the language.
[321] studied and I graduated in telecommunication microelectronics a few years later.
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[345] How many years?
[346] How many years did you study there?
[347] I stayed in Germany 12 years.
[348] I studied and I worked.
[349] And you picked up German and English there or just German when you were there?
[350] Just German.
[351] I picked English mostly in prison.
[352] So, okay, what happened in Germany?
[353] What happened in Germany?
[354] You got your degree?
[355] Was it a technical?
[356] What educational institute was it that you attended?
[357] I attended, I will say the name.
[358] It's very long, very boring.
[359] Gerhard Mercator University of Duisbourg.
[360] Now it's called University of Duisburg, Essen.
[361] And I studied microelectronics telecommunication.
[362] That is a very fancy way to say that you can program and you can, like, set up computer networks.
[363] And how did you choose that?
[364] How did you choose your course of study?
[365] Peer pressure.
[366] I wanted to be a pilot, but I had problems during my first year.
[367] And my friends told me that this is useless because in Mauritania back then we had a fleet of two airplanes, in whole Mauritania, two airplanes.
[368] And this is only like rich kids, they could go and make this pilot license.
[369] And I wouldn't have a job.
[370] They said the future is like microelectronics and so.
[371] And I just wanted to study that because my friends told me that in general.
[372] And how did you make friends there and how long did it take you?
[373] And what was your family?
[374] How were you communicating with your family?
[375] yeah we didn't have what's up i can't tell you that much and like we only had this phone but we didn't have a phone at home so i had to call my brother at work and tell him that i'm doing well and then he relayed the message to the family because we didn't have a phone at home that was in the early 90s and were you lonesome were you excited like how is your life when you got to Germany?
[376] You know, I was, you know, most of the time I was very depressed because of the cold and, and, and.
[377] Because of the cold.
[378] Because of the cold.
[379] Because of the cold.
[380] Uh -huh.
[381] You know, and, you know, I went through a lot of depression because of, you know, my, you know, Germany is a lot of very, they have very, very distinct look to them.
[382] And I looked different.
[383] And that did not help me a lot.
[384] General people are very nice people.
[385] But whenever I went to places and so, especially when I travel back and forth, they always put me on special screening.
[386] And I hated myself.
[387] And, you know, I was very young.
[388] And I always looked in the mirror and said, you know, I'm really a very bad person.
[389] because why did they pick me from all those people, you know?
[390] And so what did you make of that?
[391] What was your explanation for that?
[392] I mean, you said you thought you were a bad person.
[393] Was there, but did you experience, you said that the Germans were nice people, but you talked about this screening.
[394] So did you experience other forms of treatment that made you feel that way?
[395] Or was it primarily the airport screening?
[396] Not only.
[397] Also, when you look for a job, you know, during, the like vacation they always prefer like native German which I mean I kind of understand but this all like I'm not giving any value judgment to any of this Jordan I'm just telling you how I felt I felt I have I had very low self -esteem and then I started to completely neglect myself neglect like what I were, which made the things.
[398] Was it because you were alone?
[399] I mean, you know, you said you hadn't been alone.
[400] And now all of a sudden you were basically on your own in this strange country.
[401] I mean, how much of being detached from your family and your tribe for that matter?
[402] Do you think contributed to your depression?
[403] And the darkness, perhaps, and the cold, all of these things.
[404] Yes, a lot.
[405] Your family is the one that gives you.
[406] self -esteem.
[407] My mother is the one who tells me, you have value.
[408] You are a good person.
[409] You are a very important person.
[410] And that's, I have always to be reminded of who I am.
[411] And in Germany, I tend to forget, you know, who I am and I tend to forget those people value me. My mother values me no matter what.
[412] And it's like all, every time is a wake up call, okay, I'm a very important person to my family, you know, to my surrounding.
[413] And I always remember this eerie music at airport.
[414] Martha Otto Heinrich Emil.
[415] Marta Emil, Dora Otto Ulrich, Ulrich, Otto Ulrich, Ludwish, Dora, Zickfried, Ludvich, Anton, Heinrich, Ida. He sees the German code to spell my name over the phone.
[416] So to see whether I'm a wanted person.
[417] And this is very hurtful to me. And my life would not get any better.
[418] And I tell you why, because we need to mention the elephant in the room here.
[419] why did the United States arrest me kidnapping why were they interested in?
[420] Yes, well, we definitely want to get to that.
[421] Yes, so if you want, I can go ahead and tell you.
[422] Well, so we've got, you're in Germany, you've been there a number of years, so sure, let's progress with the story.
[423] That story was, I would say, three minutes, phone call that completely changed my life.
[424] I would never be talking to you if it hadn't been for that phone call.
[425] So I was like, I wasn't doing very well.
[426] So I'm not saying, oh, I was doing very well and then this phone call.
[427] So I was like, you know, I was like struggling in my marriage, you know, and I was looking for jobs because, you know, like I told you, I wasn't German.
[428] and so, and it was very hard.
[429] And my papers were not, I didn't have like the green card that I was still waiting to get my green card.
[430] And I just got it actually when I had this phone call.
[431] I just, my life started to get really good.
[432] And the phone rang.
[433] I was living in Friedrich Ebert Strasser.
[434] I remember.
[435] and I picked it up.
[436] It was my brother, my ex -brother -in -law.
[437] And he asked me, he said, my father is very sick and I need your help.
[438] I said, of course.
[439] He said, I have some money, but I cannot transfer it.
[440] But I can send it to you to Germany because, and then you can send it to my father.
[441] I said, no problem.
[442] I think it was about $5 ,000.
[443] If I remember, a lot of money.
[444] And that's it.
[445] That was the phone call.
[446] He sent me the money.
[447] And I took it physically and I gave it to some of the people who come back and forth do commerce in Germany and I know.
[448] And, but there was a problem with this phone call.
[449] This phone call was conducted from a mobile satellite phone that belonged to the late Osama bin Laden.
[450] And my brother -in -law was a close friend to Osama bin Laden.
[451] So the American, you know, put one and one together and they assumed that I was up to no good because Osama bin Laden back then already declared war against the United States, against innocent people of the United States.
[452] I was not aware of any of this.
[453] No, I was aware of the problem.
[454] And when they investigated, when I was taken into custody, but no, no, I'm forwarding really too fast.
[455] So the money was sent to you and you distributed to some people to get it to your friend's father.
[456] That's what happened.
[457] Correct.
[458] That's it.
[459] So the money trail was very clear where the money landed.
[460] because I was not the only person he contacted that day.
[461] He did two phone calls I know of.
[462] He contacted me and he contacted the person who would receive the money in Mauritania.
[463] Do you think he had any sense that he was putting you in danger?
[464] To be perfectly honest, it's very hard to read what was in his mind, but he put me, he completely changed my life.
[465] in a very negative way.
[466] Right, well, and you did say that his father was ill. And so obviously he was, at least in principle, motivated to help his father.
[467] So perhaps that was obscuring his vision.
[468] I mean, did he know that, did he, do you think he knew that there was a possibility that using telecommunication equipment that was associated with bin Laden might not be such a good thing for you?
[469] I mean, maybe he didn't.
[470] I'm just curious what you think.
[471] He took very, he did not consult me. So he made this decision for me, that's for sure.
[472] And I don't think that he thought that the phone was even tapped.
[473] Right.
[474] But he did it now that some people who were sitting with Osama al -Den day in, day out, were working with the CIA.
[475] Very close, very close friends of Osama bin Laden.
[476] were transmitting information to the CIA, you know.
[477] And he was very blinded, I guess.
[478] And I have to mention, he was investigated, and he is now freeman, and they did not find any connection with him and any, like, wrongdoing.
[479] I see, I see.
[480] He was just associate of Osama al -Nadden.
[481] They were, like, friends, but he did not engage with him in any of, in any attacks.
[482] or anything.
[483] So I just need to mention that.
[484] Okay.
[485] Now, you also mentioned that you were married.
[486] So you got married in Germany?
[487] Yes.
[488] My wife, my ex -wife is a Palestinian German.
[489] And, you know, at that, and I wasn't like doing well in my marriage, so I have to say that.
[490] And, you know, I don't know whether you ever found yourself in a relationship where you don't want to get out of it because you don't want to bear the shame of being the person who is responsible for breaking up, you know, the relationship.
[491] But you didn't want the relationship somehow.
[492] I was in that very bad situation, you know.
[493] Right.
[494] So you had a couple of things that weren't going so well.
[495] So you were depressed about your situation in Germany.
[496] and your marriage wasn't going well.
[497] And then this phone call came and you, you transmitted the money.
[498] What happened after that?
[499] That everything went downhill.
[500] So this was like late 98, early 99.
[501] So the police, I was not arrested.
[502] I was never interrogated.
[503] I was never held.
[504] I was never invited by the police.
[505] Never.
[506] So German found no ground to arrest me or to even question but they went to our imam that is like the priest the equivalent of a priest in church and they found so they made an appointment with the imam and they told him this one of the people who come to your mask is being investigated and then he was laughing and when they showed me the pixie he told me later on he said this guy wouldn't hurt a fly I know him very well.
[507] They said, that's maybe, we may even agree with you, but a very powerful country is interested in him.
[508] And this was like almost a tip of that I should be careful not to travel.
[509] But I freaked out.
[510] And then I had a friend.
[511] You heard this from the imam?
[512] Did he tell, told you this had happened?
[513] And so what did you think when he told you that?
[514] Actually, I wasn't surprised because my family already called me. Because when I was called this, he also called my other cousin who would receive the money.
[515] My cousin was arrested immediately and put in prison for two months.
[516] So my family knew that he was being wanted.
[517] He was wanted.
[518] And they told me never to receive any phone calls from him and not to accept his phone call.
[519] not to accept to interact with him.
[520] So I wasn't surprised, actually.
[521] Right.
[522] You knew something was up and not something good.
[523] Yes, yes.
[524] And who got arrested?
[525] Was it the person you delivered the money to or the person who sent the money?
[526] No, the person whom I delivered the money to.
[527] The other person was never arrested, ever.
[528] And was the person who received the money arrested in Germany?
[529] No, no, no, no. Germany is a country ruled by law.
[530] They don't arrest you.
[531] He was arrested in Mauritania because at least back then it was, he didn't respect the proper legal procedure.
[532] And because the U .S. government sent two notice, one to Mauritania and one to Germany.
[533] Germany says we cannot arrest him without evidence.
[534] Mauritania said, we arrest him.
[535] That's the difference.
[536] So you received the money in Germany.
[537] Did you give the money to this person in Germany?
[538] And then he went back to Mauritania.
[539] No, no, I sent it to him.
[540] So I sent to him to what they call loosely howell.
[541] So you give to a person in Germany, the person person called his family or his associates to give the money in Mauritania because.
[542] I see.
[543] Okay.
[544] I get it.
[545] They change, you know, they change money, currency.
[546] Okay.
[547] So you used a service that moved money?
[548] Yes, absolutely.
[549] Absolutely, that's it.
[550] So I freaked out.
[551] And I said, I need to live Germany.
[552] I cannot live in a place where people think I'm a bad person.
[553] And then, you know, I did.
[554] So my friend lived in Montreal, Mojson, his name is Mojson.
[555] He's five years, my senior.
[556] He finished his study at the same university.
[557] We became very good friends.
[558] And he moved to Canada.
[559] And he was working and living in Canada.
[560] He was Canadian.
[561] He became Canadian citizen when I arrived.
[562] And he told me Canada is a very good country.
[563] You have what you study is very wanted.
[564] And you can apply.
[565] And I applied.
[566] I had this as a plan B. And I was accepted right away.
[567] You know, because they need a lot of IT people.
[568] and so on and so forth.
[569] And then I said, I'm moving to Canada, joining my friends.
[570] And in November of 99, I purchased one -way ticket, and I moved to Canada.
[571] As luck had it, in December, 15th of December, a person by the name of Ahmed Rassam tried to cross the Canadian -U
[572].S.