Mel C: The Harsh Reality Of Being In The World’s Biggest Girl Band

[0] Before we start, I've got to be honest with you about something.

[1] When we recorded this episode with Mel C, it was honestly one of the most moving, heartbreaking, inspiring, revealing conversations I've ever had on this podcast.

[2] And I've been looking forward to sharing this conversation with you for some time now.

[3] And then we had an incident where one of our hard drives was stolen and we lost the audio for Mel's mic.

[4] which is really, really heartbreaking because of all the episodes to lose the audio for, for it to be this one, has been very hard to deal with.

[5] And I think I want to start by apologising to Mel because she came here, she shared her story in such a profound, vulnerable way.

[6] And I've carried the sense of guilt because when people come here, not only they're giving us their time, but they're giving us their story.

[7] And for some people, as is the case in this conversation, it's the first time that that story has been shared in this way.

[8] So I've been really struggling with that, but because it was such a profound story, and to make sure we honor all of that which Mel gave us by coming here, we spent a lot of time fixing the audio we do have, which actually comes from one of the cameras that's rolling, not from the microphone in front of her.

[9] We've worked with a specialist to try and repair the audio as much as we possibly can.

[10] And this is one of the episodes where I'm asking you for a favour, which is to stay with us.

[11] I know it's not always easy to listen to audio when it's not as crisp as this audio sounds.

[12] right now.

[13] But there's a story underneath the lack of clarity in the audio, the lack of crispness in the audio that needs to be heard.

[14] It's one of the most amazing stories we've ever shared.

[15] And so I hope you enjoy this episode.

[16] And we've put many, many, many, many, many, many, many measures in place to make sure that we never lose any audio or any footage ever again.

[17] In this case, it was out of our control.

[18] But this episode is worth it.

[19] So we're putting it out anyway, you're going to enjoy it.

[20] There's an element of guilt attached to my success.

[21] It was joyless.

[22] You know, because I had a secret, and it was killing me. The early days of the Spice Girls were the best, and I feel blessed.

[23] But with it has been some really tough times.

[24] It was fucking dramatic how it went down.

[25] The tabloid media were brutal.

[26] We all got cold, terrible, horrible things.

[27] Did you notice a change in yourself at all after that?

[28] Definitely.

[29] That was the catalyst.

[30] Why?

[31] I became very, very ill. I couldn't control my eating.

[32] I was struggling to get out of bed.

[33] It was kidding me. I think, did becoming famous ruin my life?

[34] Did it ruin me?

[35] Sometimes I question it.

[36] And, yeah, that's my head.

[37] I might need a bit.

[38] Without further ado, I'm Stephen Bartlett.

[39] And this is the Dyer of a CEO.

[40] I hope nobody's listening.

[41] But if you are, then please keep this to yourself.

[42] When I sit here with people, I always try and figure out the best starting point.

[43] I always know I'm going to start at the very beginning.

[44] But with you, when I was reading for your story, it was quite clear to me that the things that shaped you started at a very, very young age.

[45] I'm talking when you were two, three, and four years old.

[46] So can you take me right back to the very start?

[47] I'm guessing that's like sort of 1976 -ish.

[48] It is.

[49] And you're right.

[50] You know, things that happened to me when I was a toddler really defined a lot of who I became.

[51] I grew up just outside Liverpool and I was born in, sitting split up.

[52] My parents and I lived in a place called Brain Hill.

[53] And they divorced when I was, I think I was about three years old.

[54] And my life kind of quite quickly changed, you know, lots of young people would.

[55] be affected like that.

[56] And yeah, that was where the story began, I think, me developing this need to succeed.

[57] When you say your life changed, give me a colour to what that means for you.

[58] So I was living quite comfortably with mum and dad, you know, the kind of happy archetypal family life.

[59] And my mum, we left.

[60] Me and my mum left and we went to live with my grandparents.

[61] and then we went to live in quite a different area.

[62] It was still only about 13 minutes away.

[63] But it was quite different.

[64] We went into cancer accommodation and quite quickly my mum was in a new relationship so there was this new guy around and it was just kind of, you know, looking back, it was just very different to the world I entered into when I first turned upon this planet.

[65] What was your family's sort of economic situation throughout this journey?

[66] Was it, were you a working class family or?

[67] Absolutely, yeah.

[68] I mean, my family, which is still are, you know, very working class, you know, through the generations.

[69] And my mum and dad were doing, you know, they were doing COVID.

[70] We had a lovely semi -detached house in a, in a nice suburb of, you know, Liverpool.

[71] And obviously, with my mum leaving dad as today, you know, lots of couples find that it is very difficult to, to start again.

[72] And so we were, yeah, going into a situation where it was hard for mum to make ends meet.

[73] So it was, yeah, it was, it was quite a tough area to be, um, to be grown at it.

[74] Where was your dad?

[75] So dad was in the house.

[76] In the house you'd been raised in for this first few years.

[77] And then after, I think a couple of years, he went travelling and, um, yeah, and then he went to work abroad, actually.

[78] So I've always seen a lot of my dad, but there were periods of times when he was away.

[79] So, um, yeah, so it was a bit of a shakeup quite early.

[80] They're formative years, aren't they?

[81] And you're that little.

[82] You don't think about it because as a child, your life is your life.

[83] But I think when you start to think about who you are and how you became that person, you start to, you just kind of pinpoint maybe little moments that put you on that track.

[84] So when you look back to that experience of your parents separating at a very young age and your life shifting.

[85] And in hindsight, what impact did that have on you?

[86] Like when you look back and connect those dots, you can go, oh, that's the reason for that.

[87] I think it kind of confused me. I think as a young person to have my location change, you know, to be taken from the family home.

[88] And obviously, I'm tired.

[89] So I didn't understand them.

[90] I didn't understand adult relationships.

[91] I didn't understand why it was happening.

[92] So these little series of events and then, you know, I have a new, I've got a stepdad and then I had a new sibling and then I had stepbrothers and so there was just quite a lot of big things happening in my little world and it made me just kind of confused to like where I belongs, who I was, how I fitted in to that new dynamic and you know as I got older and my dad you married and I have this incredible.

[93] family is very complicated and it's huge and I have half siblings and step -siblings and step -parents and and it's lovely but I think for me being the only child of my mum and dad sometimes made me feel a little bit of a spare part and I think that's what made me feel like I had to make myself a place in the world and my own place in the world and I think also it was about kind of earning the love of these people I kind of felt like I had to prove that I was worthy of existence.

[94] It sounds well as dramatic, but I think as a young person, you, I mean, especially going through my teenage years, you question all everything, don't you?

[95] You know, why we're here?

[96] And a lot of that for me was like, do I deserve to be here?

[97] And so I had to make myself worthy of being here.

[98] And you think that started because of your parent's separation and in this new context of these other siblings that were, felt maybe belonged more than, Yeah, right.

[99] I think especially when, you know, both my parents remarried and they both really happily remarried and gone on to have my children and I love my parents and I love my step -parents and all of my siblings.

[100] But for me, I sometimes feel quite a little and I think that is what propelled me and some of the issues I went on to have in later life.

[101] You know, for good and for bad.

[102] You know, I think there's been real benefits to those feelings and to me very determined, very conscientious, but also it's maybe very hard on myself and a little bit of a perfectionist.

[103] One of the things that I was quite surprised to read was this almost contradiction between you really looked up to your dad.

[104] I think you wrote your book that you almost worshipped him, but then when he left, it was almost like there wasn't a reaction from you.

[105] Yeah.

[106] I know, it's so strange to me. It's hardly that young, isn't it?

[107] Because your own memories are such little tiny snippets, you remember, and we all remember them, truth.

[108] But for my dad, you know, I did, I put him on a pedestal, and I still do, you know, he's my hero, and he always will be.

[109] But yeah, he went away, and he went away for his own reasons, and as an adult completely understand that, you know, and he needed to do that.

[110] But yeah, I kind of shut down, I think.

[111] And I think how kind of I have learned in my life, which has been really useful in my career, that I can have these incredibly intense, emotional feelings, things, but they have to be buried, not help me. But it helps all, so maybe.

[112] In the short time.

[113] Yeah.

[114] Yeah, but I think if you, if your knowledge, you know, you have the knowledge that you do that, I think that can help in just maybe not doing it or trying to do it too much.

[115] Is that the first time you kind of recall those early years where you think you might have just buried a set of emotions and not address them, that blocking out of it just to keep on keeping on.

[116] Yeah, I think some of it is my personality, but I think some of it was circumstance that I kind of, I don't like to rock the boat.

[117] I don't want to cause people problems.

[118] I want to always make sure everybody's over pay.

[119] And I think that's a lot to do with worthiness, and they're feeling unworthy potentially.

[120] Just so I'm completely clear in my own mind, because I don't want to make any assumptions.

[121] That feeling of not feeling worthiness came from that dysfunctional family dynamic.

[122] That's the first sort of hint you have of it.

[123] I think so.

[124] I get looking back, you know, I grew up in the 1780s and for me, in the environment I was in at that time, it was really unusual that parents separated.

[125] All of my friendship group, they had, to me, what I saw as the Huffy family, you know, the family unit.

[126] And I long for them.

[127] and I didn't have that and it made me different.

[128] And obviously, you know, far forward to today and I think it's probably rarer to have the family unit, you know, life has changed so much.

[129] So that's how it affected me at the time.

[130] It made me feel like, yeah, an outsider and a bit strange.

[131] You moved to Roncorn with your mother, which is where the council estate is where you lived.

[132] That area isn't a good area back then.

[133] Yeah, you know, I mean, Runcorn is, it's like a satellite town of Liverpool and lots of people, you know, it's kind of like Overspril, and lots of people were out there.

[134] And this particular estate that we got housed in was, it was built and it was, obviously there were so many families that needed to be housed, very much like today.

[135] And it was this, like, a bizarre architecture.

[136] We have these huge round windows and then there were houses, but we used to call them the Lego house.

[137] because they were like blue and yellow it was you know I suppose at the time it seemed very fold thinking but I think unfortunately you know it was it was one of those environments of which there are still many um where you know problems can occur because it's it's kind of set up there are you know there's just opportunities I suppose for people to be quite discreet and there was you know lots of people there who were struggling and it was I think it was knocked down.

[138] I think they started knuckle it down in about 1980 because it just kind of got yeah, too run down, I think.

[139] When you look back on your father's decision to leave, is there any feelings of like, I don't know, animosity towards that decision for him to leave your life?

[140] I understand the separation, but for him to then be absent, seems like it was, from reading your book, a catalyst moment for other things to then happen.

[141] Has there ever been any animosity towards when you reflected on it as you grew up?

[142] No. Really?

[143] No, they really have.

[144] Because I think, you know, just that thing of being a kid and your life is your life.

[145] So it's just that you get told something like, oh, okay then.

[146] And I think when I became a parent and I think about my daughter and obviously I work away and not, you know.

[147] But I just, yeah, it's weird.

[148] I don't think you really fully, I don't think you haven't.

[149] understand your parents, but I think you get a much better understanding of them when you become a parent, you know, but at the end of the day, I think as a child, you look up to these adults thinking, you know, they know how everything should be and how everything should be done.

[150] And then when you become an adult, you're like, you know, I'm 15 a year and a half and I still haven't got a clue.

[151] So, and I still feel like a child, you know, and my mother said, they're like a teenager.

[152] And it's like, can I get them now?

[153] We're all just trying to figure it out throughout our lives, you know.

[154] I don't think we haven't get to that age or a girl yet.

[155] I've got it now.

[156] Dancing.

[157] Seemed to be your first love as I was reading through your story.

[158] Where did that show up?

[159] Where did dancing come from?

[160] You know, I think like so many young kids, you have this moment where you went to ballet or disco or whatever.

[161] The local, you know, it was in the local club or whatever.

[162] And I went on to ballet and cat when I was so little, I can't even remember.

[163] But it must have struck a chord with me because when we moved to Ron Khan, it was, there was no way mom could afford for me to do dance classes.

[164] So I had this period of time without it.

[165] We moved to witness when I was, I think I was 8 years old, and that's when I picked up dancing again.

[166] And I think I'd really, like, bugged my mum for years.

[167] I want to go back.

[168] I want to go back.

[169] And I did sports at school.

[170] You know, I'm just very active.

[171] I think with probably one of those kids who never sat still.

[172] You know, I was always outside.

[173] I had.

[174] It was always upside down or kicking a ball or something.

[175] And dancing for me, it was just a way of expressing myself and a freedom.

[176] And it was almost like a safe place.

[177] Like many performers, and I'm sure you've spoken to people who were like this, but that I'm quite shy in certain aspects of my life, maybe like in a social aspect.

[178] And, you know, being at school, I came a head down.

[179] I wasn't very academic.

[180] I did okay.

[181] But when I was dancing, when I was doing something creative and being able to express myself, I felt very confident and free and alive.

[182] So, yeah, dancing school was where I really felt in my element.

[183] So you became a very obsessive dancer, practiser, very meticulous.

[184] Yeah, I think there's something about classical ballet on the training of that, which there's a lot of discipline.

[185] And it just really works for me. And even now, you know, I have to have an awareness.

[186] of this, that it's to have those parameters and to have that discipline makes me feel safe.

[187] I don't really know where that comes from, but I am very hard on myself.

[188] And I kind of, I think I'm a little bit of a workaholic because I feel like when I'm in a workspace and I'm being very disciplined, that I'm safe.

[189] One would guess that if parameters and discipline and that structure makes you feel safe, then there might have been a time where a lack of parameters made you feel unsafe or a lack of a foundation made you feel unsafe.

[190] Absolutely.

[191] I'm sure.

[192] I'm sure.

[193] I think there was a lot of, you know, my mom's a performer.

[194] And, you know, it's so weird now because obviously I find myself in a similar position, but she'd be away, an orphan lot.

[195] But there'd be times when I'd be staying with other people or, you know, having babysitters.

[196] And, you know, maybe there was a little bit of instability.

[197] felt there and that would definitely make sense a bit of instability is this are you talking to talking about your nanny yeah yeah there was a little period of time where yeah my mum had employed someone to look after me who um you know she felt was was great person should the role but unfortunately you know the girl she was maybe a little bit too young to take on that responsibility and had kind of moved to me out of our home and I'd moved in with her mum and yeah it was a little bit shady but yeah as soon as mum found out she put an end to it but I think I was very quiet about it because I was so little I think I would only about five so um I chose not to tell her probably didn't want to rock the boats what weren't you telling her um but that I wasn't at home and that I wasn't being taken care of by the girl she didn't probably to take care of me that feels like a a way of saying something that is a little less light in reality.

[198] Well, you know, again, I was so young.

[199] It was, I don't think it's something I've got old that I felt that's, that was probably something that would affect you in a big way.

[200] But at the time, it was just my life.

[201] You recite this moment of just waiting for this person that was meant to be taking care of you, just not showing up on many occasions and you having to wait outside and weeing your pants at one point because you were waiting outside so long.

[202] And yeah, I remember getting back from school and we had these, you know, down concrete steps up to the flat door and no one was home and, yeah, just busting for the toilet.

[203] And yeah, I worked myself and luckily that the neighbour came home and she took me in and kind of cleaned me up.

[204] And yeah, so that's, I mean, again, I was so young, there's just these little flashes of memories of those things.

[205] I think I think when you're when you're young you maybe don't it's not that those I think about my own life like it's not that those things don't aren't impacting you it's you don't you're not really aware of the impact they're having or the stories that they're they're making you right about yourself and about your situation and then obviously oftentimes it seems that we including myself then see the consequences of it and in hindsight have to piece sort of piece together where that came from but that's I mean when I when I read that in your book I would is, I mean, that's almost like criminal negligence to treat a child in such a way.

[206] And I think about the departure of your father, your mum then departing to go and pursue her career.

[207] And then you're ultimately ending up on these steps, you know, urinating your underwear because of this negligent nanny.

[208] And that's, you know, that's where I think, oh, that is, you know, that must have been formative to some degree.

[209] Yeah.

[210] I mean, you know, I'm a big believer in therapy and I've been having it for many years.

[211] And probably I only started to do that because of my time with the Spice Girls and how much the head fuck that was.

[212] But it's really interesting because you do look at your habits and the things that you do are why you do them.

[213] And so much of it comes back to your childhood.

[214] Dancing was your first love.

[215] You become very disciplined at that.

[216] And eventually off you go to study in London.

[217] And that's where you find singing.

[218] Yeah.

[219] Which you hadn't, had you been doing it before?

[220] You know, because my mum was a singer and she had deals in the 70s, she had a couple of record deals with different bands, but, you know, it hadn't worked out the way she would have liked it to.

[221] You know, she'd be great, but didn't get to those heights that all of us performers to get.

[222] So I just knew growing up, it's really, really hard.

[223] Working in the music industry is really difficult.

[224] So, you know, my young brain goes, okay, I want to be a pop star, but it's really hard.

[225] So I love dancing and I love singing, so theatre, because I love musical theatre as well.

[226] I was to perform girls' college and I was pursuing that and I'd sung a little bit, but I just, I never really had confidence in my voice, but there was this like weird thing of, it just gave me so much joy to be more joy than dancing.

[227] I was in college, I was in my second year and we had these competitions that would happen every year and I was singing a song and it was the first time I just had a moment with an audience where I just really felt this energy, this transaction between myself and men and it was when I was singing and that was it for me that was the moment it was like it is singing that is it, that is what I have to do.

[228] So eventually you and 400 other young women respond to a advert in a magazine.

[229] What was that advert?

[230] Okay, so what I saw to the stage in the newspaper was when you leave performing girls' college, you're a actor or a dancer, a singer, whatever, you go to your auditions, the stage is where you find your auditions.

[231] Find myself at an audition and didn't want to be out, handed a flyer for a girl band, and I'm like, that's it.

[232] And that's what I'm going to do.

[233] You get handed a flyer, a lot of people have been, handed that flyer.

[234] Did you know then that you would, you said that's it, that's what I want to do?

[235] Did you know then that you wanted to be in a girl band or did you mean that's it, I'm going to apply and I think that's more befitting of what I, where I want to go?

[236] It's hard to know exactly because of what's happened since then.

[237] Yeah, yeah, yeah, of course.

[238] But my telling of the story is, I mean, I just had a really strong feeling at that time that I was going to, whatever this thing was.

[239] I was going to be a part of it and it was going to be something incredible what did that fly say I think it said something like are you 18 to 24 I think like the wording of it streetwise can dance sing fun loving I don't know but it was just basically an audition an open audition anyone come along put the girl band together music management and yeah I went along to that audition And how did that go?

[240] It went well.

[241] I was recalled, we had to dance, and then we were recalled to sing, and then we were all sent away, and then we were called back.

[242] But when we were called back, I was ill, and I couldn't speak, let alone sing.

[243] So, yeah, I missed my first opportunity of being in this band.

[244] You missed your first opportunity?

[245] Yeah, so I was really sick.

[246] I kept getting heartitis, and I was really poorly when the recall happened.

[247] happened.

[248] And so I begged my mum to call him and just say, give Melanie a week.

[249] I get better.

[250] She should come and sing for you.

[251] Well, they were like, no, we've already chosen the girls.

[252] I'm afraid.

[253] It's a notice town.

[254] And there was lots of auditions that were known.

[255] So it was like, oh, well, wasn't there to be.

[256] But then a couple of weeks after that, I got called to say, somebody hasn't worked out.

[257] We'd like to see Melody again.

[258] And then that was my chance getting the band Christ that is a pivotal phone call yeah it's bizarre yeah and I think I often think about the other girls who had potential because that still wasn't the five that everybody got to know you know there was I think there were three girls from the beginning of the band being put together who didn't end up being part of the fan a line up the spice out.

[259] It's funny, isn't it?

[260] When you think back even being handed that flyer, you think, what path would I have walked potentially if that person that day hadn't given me that flyer?

[261] It's a really strange thought, isn't it?

[262] It's a sliding doors moment, isn't it?

[263] But I really, because often in interviews you'll be asked, oh, if you didn't do this, you do?

[264] And I'm like, I have no clue.

[265] Funny.

[266] I think about it because there was an early, early point in my career where I got a phone call saying a day before saying this 16 year old kid that was meant to be speaking at this event, had dropped out last minute, and could I get to London, I had no money, I ended up bunking on the megabus.

[267] This 16 year old kid had just sold his business for 30 million, so they needed like a young entrepreneur last minute, found me because I was on some website at 3am, asked me to come.

[268] And that sent me off in my career.

[269] It was where I got my investors from, that one talk.

[270] I think if they hadn't asked me to be there, how would my life have been different.

[271] And the weird thought, which we never consider, is that maybe I would have been happier.

[272] Have you ever, have you ever thought that?

[273] Often, yeah.

[274] You know, I, I wouldn't change my life.

[275] Obviously, I'm so proud of the things that I've achieved and I have an incredible life and I absolutely do my passion.

[276] You know, that's my, I've just had a weekend of it, you know, three shows over the weekend and I feel blessed but with it has been some really tough time and sometimes I do I do think wow I think did becoming famous ruin my life did it ruin me sometimes I question it's a hard one to answer isn't it because you don't know the alternative so you can't but I think the thing is it like you know it's also important isn't to remember we're on a journey right what's the destination the destination's death we didn't know just we've enjoyed this journey and I remember the early days of the spice girls were the best before we've released anything we had the most fun because it was this excitement what's going to happen you know what can it be and then when it happened it was incredible but there's a lot of freshies that come along with it so everything starts to change in those early years then so before you've released any music you stumbled around trying to find management for a while right and then you recount stories in your book about some like dickheads that's made some just like awful comments to you can you tell me about that that comment was his name chick oh chick yeah so he was a financial backer so when we we were first put together by a management team and we were with them maybe for about a year and chick was um Yeah, the financial backer of these original managers.

[277] And he'd commented on the size of my tharys, which was something that really shook me. Because I went to a performing arts college, which was predominantly a dancing college.

[278] And, you know, the body image was an issue there.

[279] There were girls with eating disorders.

[280] I'd been, you know, I'd been a witness to that in my life.

[281] But, yeah, it never really did me personally.

[282] And, you know, I'm a teenager, probably on a little bit of weight, moving away from home, not really eating as well, going down the pub.

[283] And it was a little bit, but it was never something that really bothered me. It was just, well, I'll come up after a little bit, lose a few pounds.

[284] But somebody actually commented on the way I looked when I was going into a career with so much of it is about how you look really affected me. Did he make that comment in front of people?

[285] He made that comment in front of the other guys.

[286] There's something about when you're trying to fit in, when someone points at something which makes you different or that might make you feel like you don't fit in.

[287] And from just listening to your early years where fitting in and feeling worthy was so important to you, for someone to then in a group of people, where you belong, that band, to say, this is why you don't fit, essentially.

[288] with that comment, I can't think of anything more more hurtful for one's self -esteem.

[289] Especially the young person, because, you know, I think about it.

[290] I was probably 19 at that point, which at the time you felt you're all grown up in back to college, growing up into the big wide world.

[291] You're a child.

[292] You know, you're still, you've been so vulnerable.

[293] Well, Victoria said to you that he had said comments to her about her weight as well or her appearance.

[294] Yeah.

[295] I think, you know, it was very much at that time.

[296] Me like, you know, I went to dance college, so teachers would say, you need to insweigh, you know, what's that stomach do there?

[297] I mean, I've spoken to dances recently about the culture of that because, you know, recently there was a lot, there's people that talked about in the gymnastics world.

[298] Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah.

[299] And there was definitely a culture within dance, which was very cruel and heartless and shaming, body shame, which is changing.

[300] But, you know, dance teachers, there are some really lovely nurturing ones out there.

[301] But some of the best dance teachers are horrible.

[302] You know, I mean, carrot and the stick, isn't it?

[303] It's quite an old -fashioned way, but it worked in some ways, but it's very damaging.

[304] Did it change your behaviour, that comment from him?

[305] Did you notice a change in yourself at all after that?

[306] Definitely.

[307] That was the catalyst.

[308] That was the catalyst for me to, it was like a wake -up call.

[309] It was like, if I want to do this, if I want to be a pop star, and you have your own, this was like the mentees as well.

[310] So it was, you know, body image was a very different thing there.

[311] We have found, God, there's so much more body positivity now, you know.

[312] But back then, it was all about being stick thin.

[313] And I felt, well, if I'm going to do this, I have to fit the mold.

[314] And so then that was, it was just, it was a gradual thing, but it was like the eating and the exercising.

[315] And that's when, that's when it began.

[316] Yeah.

[317] from a comment like that, which you probably didn't get a second thought, you know?

[318] Isn't that crazy?

[319] It's crazy.

[320] We never really appreciate that one comment can have such a profound impact and change someone's, um, the trajectory of their health or their well -being in such a significant way.

[321] Just one comment.

[322] Yeah.

[323] Just a few words.

[324] Yeah.

[325] You know, I think it's a bit of a trigger, isn't it?

[326] You know, so that happened.

[327] And I think obviously I was feeling vulnerable and it naps your confidence.

[328] confidence.

[329] But then it's kind of, I think it's like a little chain of events that leads you down that road.

[330] Right.

[331] You know?

[332] So that maybe was the little start of it.

[333] It united about it.

[334] The first domino to fall.

[335] Yeah.

[336] Yeah.

[337] On that journey trying to find new management, you, you stumbled across Simon Cowell as well and he, he must hate when you recount this story because.

[338] It's so funny because he, this is a thing, right?

[339] And brother of your members things differently.

[340] Because he remembers, he said yes, but we said them to him.

[341] So basically, we got to the point where we were going to record companies.

[342] We were looking for a record deal, so we left the original manager.

[343] And we had some demos, demo tapes.

[344] And we were going through our meeting managers, meeting record labels.

[345] And most people were very positive.

[346] We got very positive reactions.

[347] But we remember Samin saying, he was interesting.

[348] Yeah, but he recounted it differently.

[349] So that's pretty, isn't it?

[350] Because obviously, then, it was the 90s.

[351] He was a record company.

[352] He wasn't known to the wide public.

[353] At this point, when you're going around trying to find management, how are you, like, providing for yourselves?

[354] Where's the money coming from to sustain the band?

[355] And was there ever a moment where you thought, fuck this?

[356] I'm going to.

[357] No. No. Never, no, never.

[358] So when people with our original management, they did give us like a little bit good money.

[359] They put us up in a house.

[360] I think they go with about £60 a week, which, because we weren't paying for our accommodation, at the time we could make ends meet but when we left them I think I went to stay with a friend back in sick up where I'd been to college so I was like staying in her to spare wheel and then there was a period of time where Melanie and Jerry were homeless they were doing a little bit of sofa surfing yeah and Eva went home to her mum's place in Finchley and Victoria was back at her mum's place up in Hertfordshire so yeah I think it was so lovely I remember we go to Eva's mum's place and she'd do load a toast for us and nothing timpio and that would be bread first and yeah we were just we never thought it was never an option to give up we were on this journey and we were going to make it happen how long was that period between you leaving your initial management ultimately when you found simon fuller and you know that kind of it began with virgin how long was that how big was that gap it wasn't as long as a year at the beginning of year it was maybe about eight months or site.

[361] We had somebody who was, you know, very kindly looking after us.

[362] So what we'd done before, we left our original management.

[363] We talked our original management into putting on a ship.

[364] So we did that.

[365] And then we met some writers and producers and publishers.

[366] And we made some contact.

[367] And we kind of knew all the he really regulatory.

[368] But we just thought they saw out with them.

[369] And we did that.

[370] And so we pursued that.

[371] And we were with Mark Fox, who was head of publishing at BNG at the time and he kind of took us under his wing and would take us out for dinners and you've got us to meet people and that kind of got us on our load and then you met Simon Fuller talk to me about that and how that changed things yeah it was really interesting because we'd been it's so funny isn't it we really did take mastered into our own hands and we talk about auditioning like you know we were this unknown girl band everyone was telling us girl bands don't work but we were out there going right is this manager good enough for us and so we just we just have a feature that we've got something very special and we're not going to undersell it or ourselves and which is wonderful you know even if any of us had any doubts about it we were like no this is the way it is and i think that real determination synchronmindedness is a really important part of succeeding it's like no there's no doubt this will not fail so we went out there and met these people and mark fox is introducing us to some writers, we met Matt and Biff, who we wrote wannabe, and two become one, and Beaving Forever.

[372] And we also met absolute who we wrote, who do you think you are too much with those guys.

[373] And they were managed by a guy called Pete, and he was in Simon's offices.

[374] And Simon heard the music and wanted to meet us.

[375] So he was the first person who approached us.

[376] And eventually you signed with Virgin.

[377] Virgin Records.

[378] We gave everyone the run around.

[379] We gave everyone the run around.

[380] and we got the money up and up and up and up as you could in those days and we had just loved Virgin.

[381] It was an incredible team and we just had so much fun with them.

[382] They'd really shared our vision.

[383] Great A &R, actually, you know, obviously Spice was such a great album as is Spice World.

[384] So yeah, it was like a match made in heaven.

[385] You recount that moment that Simon Fuller gave you your first 10K check, I believe.

[386] And this is before.

[387] you've released any music right so this is like a signing bonus so we got like um you get a advance when you you know when you let times you're not so much these days it's changed so much but yeah you get the chance and we hadn't seen like what we would deem is proper money and that was proper money for all them zeros what did you do with it um i think you know what i did with my first one no i don't but you not okay first thing i did i do know you went I mean, I have some night shoes.

[388] I mean, I have a lot.

[389] You think I so much, chair, right?

[390] I remember, like, being in my own -this -can -stir -well in this party, give me a chair, pretend that I haven't looked at it.

[391] I'll wait down to Oxon Street, Jenny Sports, and I bought the Nike Air Macs that I've been, like, I've had my eye on for weeks.

[392] I've made it.

[393] And what did you do with the rest?

[394] Just leave in the bank.

[395] What did you do with the rest?

[396] I think I paid for some driving lesson.

[397] Yeah, I paid for my rent.

[398] And I think pretty much when you get in advance, whether it's with the becker company or publishing, it's your living expectus, you know, and you're a young artist and we've not released anything.

[399] That's kind of what it goes on.

[400] How quickly did things move from the point of getting that check on that stairwell to wannabe, the first single?

[401] Taking off.

[402] How quickly was that?

[403] gosh you're really testing my memory now I think I want to say it was around Christmas time when we got the check and then Warnaby was released in July of 96 so maybe about six months six months it's not it's not very long time is it it's not and it's from what I read the WANB didn't take a long time to record either for a single no it was definitely under half an hour.

[404] We kind of disagree.

[405] Was it 15 minutes?

[406] Was it 20 minutes?

[407] I mean, it was kind of thrown together?

[408] Was it ever going to be a song?

[409] We weren't sure.

[410] We were just kind of being sinny.

[411] And Matt and Biff, who are incredible, just obviously made it into something which it went to number one in 37 countries.

[412] I mean, I don't think I even knew there was 37 countries.

[413] So what?

[414] That's crazy.

[415] Yeah.

[416] What does that feel?

[417] feel like.

[418] So you release that single, then you start getting the murmurs, the noise, the world starts vibrating a little bit.

[419] What is that, what is that like?

[420] We had big ideas.

[421] We probably had big ideas above our station before we should have done, but it helped us.

[422] Our original manager, I was like, don't get too big for your boots.

[423] You know, you haven't done anything yet.

[424] You need, you've got work to do.

[425] We're like, we know we've got work to do, but we've got something to express and we are going to make this happen.

[426] So we were always like we felt we were very important and very special.

[427] And when other people started to think that too, one of we was released, it was still early days, but we released our album in Japan because at the time there was no internet.

[428] So artists would release music in different territories at different times so you could kind of catch up with yourself with your promo.

[429] You were able to do it.

[430] I'd like to say you had time to do it about, hey, there's only seven days in a week.

[431] Our schedule was insane.

[432] But we started in Japan and one of you went to number one, why have we were in Japan?

[433] So we didn't really get a sense of what was happening at home.

[434] And I think when we flew back to the UK, we were in Japan for our two weeks.

[435] When we, when we flew back, everything had changed.

[436] And that was it when it was when people really did start recognizing us in the street.

[437] Yeah, it all started to it.

[438] yeah increase at that point and how did that feel at first it was so exciting it was kind of like it's always like you put in a like in a catapult you know we're doing all this way doing all this way you know and then you're gone and you're just on this like oh and it really was I was trying to make sure I had the dates right before because when I was looking at the amount of time from that first single to the number one albums and the meteoric global superstardom it feels like this much time I was like I'm sure I've got the date it's wrong there must be like a decade like typo somewhere because it was just a couple of years it's you know it's not even a fault in years right one of who's released in July 1997 Jeremy left the back in the spring of 98 where we were two shows short of our European leg of the tour so it wasn't a full few years that the we're together doing the thing, you know?

[439] That's mad.

[440] I don't understand that.

[441] We got together in 94.

[442] That's when we all first met.

[443] So together a couple of years beforehand.

[444] But yeah, by 98, spring of 98, Jeremy had gone.

[445] We went on to do our US leg if the tour was a full piece.

[446] We come back.

[447] Menly in Victoria had their babies.

[448] So obviously everything started to change by that point.

[449] It was a very different chapter in the lives of the Spariscope that found it.

[450] In my head, the Spice Girls weren't like two decades.

[451] Maybe that's why.

[452] Maybe the music lasted, obviously.

[453] But when I was reading, it was like two years, I was like, what?

[454] How is that possible?

[455] How is...

[456] Two albums and a movie and a world tour.

[457] And yeah.

[458] And all those MTV music videos that were playing in my house constantly, because of my sister.

[459] Yeah, blame your sister.

[460] I listened to a couple of the odd CD when no one was in the house.

[461] That's my podcast.

[462] We can edit that out.

[463] But when you think about why you were successful, because there were a lot of other girl bands at that time, and there were even other girl bands that had a similar fundamental message of empowerment.

[464] And as you call it, girl power.

[465] I think you can't say that anymore.

[466] I think that's a bit of a people don't like me using the word girl.

[467] But girl power and feminism and female empowerment.

[468] Why, in hindsight, do you think that you broke through and these others who were there before you and in some situations were much better placed why did you win?

[469] I think the stars were in alignment whatever the magic was with that dynamic that we are so different that we are quite strong in our individuality that we made the decision to dress how we each felt comfortable you know girl bands before us had coordinated their look or had a certain look, and we realized that didn't work for us.

[470] We wanted to make pop music.

[471] We loved pop music.

[472] We loved so many genres, but we felt like there was a space for a female band.

[473] You know, we kind of looked at bands like, take that, and new kids on the bot.

[474] And there was no girl bands doing that.

[475] And that's what we wanted to do.

[476] And I just think just all those other elements, a lot of them accidental, you know, are nicknames, which we never came up with.

[477] It wasn't a marketing idea.

[478] It was Top of the Pops Magazine, Peter Lorraine, who was edited them at the time, just that would be really fun to give us some nicknames.

[479] And they stuck and they became part of the brand, you know, and they still live on to this day.

[480] I mean, in the US, we're known mainly by our nicknames.

[481] So, yeah, it just starts, like I say.

[482] It feels like they were just in alignment.

[483] It was meant to be.

[484] We had this idea that something was going to have.

[485] but I think it was running in stars.

[486] Timing seems to be quite important in hindsight as well.

[487] When you think about where the world was, was it ready for this message?

[488] Was it ready for a band like this?

[489] Because, you know, if you'd been maybe 10 years earlier, maybe it wouldn't have worked out or 10 years later.

[490] But there's, it's funny, the case of timing.

[491] And then even when you think back to being handed that flyer, the timing of that, and it's quite serendipitous and, you know, the butterfly effect of just these, these things linking up and it can be quite spooky.

[492] Yeah, it really is.

[493] You know, you're right.

[494] At the time, the 90s, it was a period of growth in the UK.

[495] You know, it was quite a positive time for the country.

[496] We just kind of come out of the grudging in this music.

[497] Indy was big here.

[498] And, you know, we can't, you know, say, oh, you know, you're well from female empowerment, yes.

[499] We brought that.

[500] This was something that was bubbling and moving.

[501] and changing and we were just really fortunate that we hit it at a time when more and more people were getting on it you know and I think because you know people often talk about feminism with the spice girls and it's like we feel like you know we were young we had a point to prove we wanted to be a girl band for girls and we wanted to talk about female empowerment and how girls could do whatever they wanted to do no one was telling us we couldn't do something and it enabled us to take feminism and make it more, you know, palatable to the young audience.

[502] You know, we had fans of three years of age.

[503] A pop band or a music act did never happen before.

[504] You know, and even now, you know, it's amazing.

[505] I do these shows and I go out and I do show those stuff and I do cover the Spice Girl songs and there's so many young kids in the audience loving and re -up with discovering the Spice Girls.

[506] And it's incredible.

[507] It's still patches their own.

[508] that pressure though people often talk about the pressure of being in a band but the pressure of being in a girl band at that time especially when even you know the media were very vicious and there wasn't an awareness around the impact of words on mental well -being and how that can impact people strikes me as being an even more difficult time than today of being in well we have social media now which is also an exacerbating factor but talk to me about the the pressure of public scrutiny back then on young women.

[509] You're right, you know, the tabloid media were brutal.

[510] I think things have improved.

[511] Not that much.

[512] I mean, it is quite shocking now when I look back of articles from the 90s and North East, just like the wording that was used.

[513] I think they're just a bit more sneaky with it now.

[514] You know, we're still saying the same things, but in a slight in a different way.

[515] But back then it was just, I mean, I got called.

[516] we all got colds, but terrible, horrible things.

[517] And as a young person, I think for anyone, and you're right, you know, the generation now have social media to deal with it, which I think is equally as damaging, if not more so in many ways, because you can't escape it.

[518] Can you, you know, your phone is, I wake up for anything I do, look at my phone.

[519] Luckily now I have the skin of a rhino.

[520] I think so if anyone's saying anything negative about me, you know, I can, I can use.

[521] me, push it up.

[522] But yeah, back then it was, I was trying to go out of us.

[523] You know, who am I?

[524] These people are telling me I'm listening.

[525] You know, they're criticising me. I'm, I'm not talented enough.

[526] I'm not pretty enough.

[527] And stupid.

[528] I'm a loud mouth and this.

[529] And it's like, who am I?

[530] Am I, who will want to be?

[531] Am I who they tell me I am?

[532] Should I be who they want me to be?

[533] it's so confusing and that was I think another you know we were talking about these different elements that got me because I became very very ill around 2000 and you know the eating and the exercising and from chicks' words and certain things that had happened being photographed constantly but being commented constantly was a big factor in that journey your demean a change when I mentioned that it looked like it genuinely I could see how that that phase of your life had impacted you just from the the change in your much of yeah it's I don't think anyone can ever you know it's really hard you know because I'm always in this place where there's it I'm always in this place where there's an element of guilt attached to my success and I think that's exacerbating.

[534] by people going, were you famous?

[535] You know, you put yourself in that position.

[536] And something I explore in the book is, you know, people who want to be famous, probably other people least what quite to deal with it because, you know, we're looking for exception and love and adoration and to be that vulnerable and to put yourself in that position only to be criticized is a bad combination.

[537] And I think, you know, with the tabloid media, as it was back then, I mean, it's horrific.

[538] I mean, I've looked again recently because, you know, there's been certain reasons why I've been having to read old articles.

[539] I launched it, I mean, I don't want to jump forward too far.

[540] Good to story, but I did suffer with a couple of eating disorders.

[541] one of them being binge eating disorder.

[542] I was very depressed and I gained so weight that I've been under weight for a long long time and my body was just like it was just a reaction it was like I am starved of any notion it's you heal me feed me and you know obviously the big change in that made me gain weight and it wasn't in an enormous amount of weight I think I went from a size probably about a size as opposed it just sounds like a lot if you say like a size six to a size 14.

[543] But then in size 14, I don't think it's even the average size of women in the UK.

[544] And they call me sumo space.

[545] I mean, how disgusting is that?

[546] So whoever this person is, I'm not going to say it's a guy.

[547] And maybe it was, maybe it wasn't, the other department was, but they thought it was appropriate to call a young woman who actually had been open because she kind of felt she'd have to be about her issues and it was okay to call her sumo space how sick is that it's really fucked up isn't it I mean working with hands and you know what things happened in the world but in this in my world at that time when that happened it was devastating gosh it's disgusting isn't it they couldn't do it now they couldn't do that now But like I say, it's all a bit reading between the lines now, isn't it?

[548] You were so young then as well.

[549] You were, you know, you're in your teen years, but you're still a child at that age.

[550] And as you say, learning who you are and what you mean.

[551] Was there a moment where you realize that, so that first comment from Chick sends you, changes your behavior?

[552] Was there a moment where you look back on and go, that was maybe this, not the second catalyst moment, but my behavior took a really sharp turn there in terms of like exercise and obsessing over food and fitting in.

[553] Yeah, I think it was, it was more when we were in the public eye, being photographed, doing lots of photo shoot.

[554] Yeah, you know, sort of it's linked to a need of control, isn't it?

[555] Because things at that point felt very much out of our control.

[556] Even though we, you know, we wanted to take this thing, you know, in our own hands and we wanted to make it happen.

[557] I think because when things with the Spice Girls became an over -success festival, which was very quick after the release of wannabe were flying on over the world, you're in a bubble, you're in this crazy bubble, and it's great, you're having an amazing talent.

[558] Well, you can't do things on your own terms anymore, but you can control what you put in your mouth, or you can be in the gym where people only view out because I don't bother a she's in the gym.

[559] You write about how you turn into a robot.

[560] Mm -hmm.

[561] What do you mean by a robot?

[562] Okay, so I think I found it the only way I could survive the experience with by switching off my feelings.

[563] I had to eat a certain way.

[564] I had to exercise a certain amount.

[565] And I couldn't not do it.

[566] So I had to switch off any of those like human emotions or any of those, just even listening to my own body, there was a task.

[567] I had to be done and I had to complete it and robot and must do it.

[568] And that was kind of my inner dialogue.

[569] And you recount this day of reciting some reciting that well -being on a running machine, which I found almost quite unnerving and quite strange, looking in the mirror and telling yourself that you're a robot.

[570] That actually happened.

[571] You were looking at it.

[572] I can completely remember being in the gym right now.

[573] I'm in the treadmill, I'm in the middle of where I've treadmills.

[574] and yeah that was that was my way of coping to that shut down shut off just like just this body is just a piece of machinery that will do what it has to do and there was no there was no choice that was the thing there was no choice that was the way it had to be and it wasn't until i had which by you know i i imagine was a break in 2000 when i just you know i hit back bottom and And that's when I can't fell up because the robot wasn't working anymore.

[575] Have you, when you think back at that young girl, how do you feel about her as an, as an, as an, you know, much more mature person now?

[576] How do you feel about that young girl that was going through that?

[577] Could we stand to the floor.

[578] Actually, like, you know, it was the most incredible time of my life and the hardest.

[579] and as much as I enjoyed it, it was joyless, you know, because I hadn't seen cut.

[580] And I was dealing with what I had to deal with.

[581] And living my dream and said, time, it was, it's a, it's a, it's a hell fuck, is what it is, because I don't change anything.

[582] I changed that.

[583] I changed that I became the victim of an eating disorder and exercising obsessively.

[584] I rushed that like to me. so I could have fully enjoyed the wonderful things that happened to me 100%.

[585] You know, life isn't perfect.

[586] There's all those issues, there's always things we have to overcome.

[587] But it was fucking dramatic in how it went down.

[588] What would you say to her if you could speak to her?

[589] I say sorry.

[590] I do.

[591] I sure I'm sorry, but I did that to have.

[592] Yeah, I think I've been angry as well.

[593] I think I've aimed, I know other people.

[594] but I think as an other I can talk about for the actions and you know I don't understand I'm bitter and twisted but don't you hear the word people or you know the tabloid media I don't want to bitch and around about the tabloid media but you know they'd probably need to be bitched and round about because they've been disgraced and but yeah I just I I just sorry I should regret you're actually what would you say sorry to her for.

[595] It's a point of three.

[596] I think her to reopen after.

[597] And she was like, I can listen.

[598] I haven't a guilty attached to what I was representing for what was really going on behind those.

[599] And you know what?

[600] I'm such an honest person.

[601] I can't lie.

[602] I'm stover by the lying.

[603] I feel so dishonest if I'm not burying myself to people.

[604] But I was living now.

[605] And that's probably the hardest part of it.

[606] That secret, the secret you're referring to is the eating disorder and the obsessive exercising, right?

[607] The secret you were keeping.

[608] When you say eating disorder, are you referring to the binge eating disorder?

[609] That was, did that come after?

[610] That was a lady, yeah.

[611] So, you know, and the weird thing is actually, as you put it like that, it's like, I was ending the iPhone, so wow.

[612] You know, because there is a little voice that goes, He can't carry on like this, but then the other votes, the bigger voice goes, yeah, I'm got a choice.

[613] And the first eating disorder, I started to, just to eat less, small portions, and then I started to eliminate food groups to a put, because I was terrified of, and then I was terrified of carbs, and then I wouldn't have banana because it's got too much sugar in it.

[614] I mean, I do not even know how I survived, and I think often now I get so exhausted.

[615] I think it's probably two years of being well -nourished.

[616] I lived on fruit and vegetables for about two years.

[617] And I was underweight, my period stopped.

[618] You know, I kind of, I've always wanted to be a month.

[619] But I had no choice but to live this life I was living and I was jeopardising the chance of being a month.

[620] How quickly is that?

[621] Just this compulsion.

[622] And then it all comes to a head in 2000 when there...

[623] Yeah.

[624] I think like a lot of, and I'm going to say a lot of women, but a lot of people really hate their bodies.

[625] You know, we, oh, I hate this.

[626] Or we used to get asked in interviews.

[627] But, you know, what's your favorite?

[628] They wonder what you call them, like, your favorite attribute or whatever.

[629] You know, what, what do you, what do you like least about yourself?

[630] You know, what?

[631] Stupid fucking questions.

[632] Why would you say?

[633] Why would you ever say?

[634] Never be negative in an interview.

[635] I never pull people towards your vulnerability.

[636] You didn't know what I hate my short, stubby legs.

[637] You know what I mean?

[638] Just really just really focus on them.

[639] But yeah, I hated myself.

[640] I was never good enough.

[641] Nothing's good enough.

[642] Women do this all the time.

[643] We pull ourselves apart, you know.

[644] I'm not funny enough, I'm not clever enough, me not pretty enough, I'm not sexy enough.

[645] All these things.

[646] I mean, fuck, this body is amazing.

[647] And I spent all of those years just hating it because it was what I wanted it to be.

[648] but you are not your body.

[649] You know, I was talking about this weekend.

[650] I lost an older sibling a few years ago.

[651] And we were talking about when people pass and, you know, and suddenly he died of cancer and we know in the last ages people with cancer, it's awful to see him in that way.

[652] But I don't remember him in that way.

[653] I remember the essence of him.

[654] I remember how funny he was and how naughty he was.

[655] And it's not.

[656] I don't remember anything physical You know And it's just we just need to get away From this physical being What defalions us What defiance us?

[657] We are so much more than that And I've completely forgotten what the question was But I just got called No, no, so powerful And it was linked to all of that sort of suppression And self -abandonment coming to a head In 2020, 2000 Yeah Yeah, so exactly And I'd spent you I'd trying to make myself small, you know, fit into the form that I should be to be doing the thing that I'm doing.

[658] And it was kidding me. And this is why I started talking about my body because I'm so grateful to my body because it took over.

[659] And it said to me, we can't do this anymore.

[660] You're not doing this anymore.

[661] We are taking the control away from you.

[662] And it was very restrictive with my eating and being in the Mexico, I started bingy thinking.

[663] Because my body, it couldn't help anymore.

[664] It wasn't getting enough fuel.

[665] And I was depressed.

[666] I didn't ever was depressed.

[667] I had nowhere.

[668] That never even crossed my mum that I had depression.

[669] I just knew I'd lost control over my eating and freaked me out because it was all about the way I look.

[670] You know, it was, it was vanity.

[671] I was like, I'm eating.

[672] I'm eating low.

[673] And, you know, I feel very grateful.

[674] I was never bulimic.

[675] I tried.

[676] I couldn't make myself sick.

[677] And I'm so grateful for that because I know it's a really difficult illness to recover from.

[678] So I was getting bigger and bigger and bigger and bigger because I was eating more and more and more.

[679] And then that was, it was the vanity that took me to the doctors, as well as being really fucking scared because I didn't know what was going on.

[680] And I was struggling to get out of bed.

[681] And that was when I was diagnosed with depression.

[682] And that was my first step.

[683] remote recovery.

[684] You go to that doctor who ultimately diagnoses you with depression.

[685] Can you remember that day vividly?

[686] I do.

[687] I remember sitting opposite in his death.

[688] And I think I said everything out loud for the first time, by my eating, about crying and not being able to do that.

[689] I mean, I didn't have the words.

[690] I didn't know what anxiety was.

[691] I didn't know what depression was.

[692] What did you say to him?

[693] Just because I want to get a color of what the symptoms were that you hadn't yourself pinpointed as well i was i was tired all the time i couldn't control my eating i mean i was i i told about myself because sometimes i'd catch myself in mid -binge it was so it's such a compulsive thing i'd like yeah i'd just be in the middle of just eating and i'd be like you know and anyone and there's suddenly i know lots of people have these issues it's like a cycle because you do it and then you hate yourself so you do it again and then you just eat just keeps, you know, getting worse and worse to the point where I had to go to the doctor.

[694] But I felt like I was losing my mind.

[695] I felt like I was actually going mad.

[696] And I didn't have the right words.

[697] And I know they are not the wrong words that we used.

[698] But those were the words I had.

[699] Yeah.

[700] And he said, but first of all, we have to do with me abrasion.

[701] And I was like, this weight was just lifted from her shoulders because it was like, oh, we're going to talk a name.

[702] It's something that can be true.

[703] It's something you can recover from.

[704] And that was the beginning of a very, very long journey.

[705] Very, very long journey.

[706] A very long journey.

[707] I think I've still run that journey, to be honest.

[708] I don't think, I think depression is always there.

[709] It's always waiting in the wings.

[710] It's not nearly to me. But it is for me anyway.

[711] But I'm quite good at just keeping it at bay.

[712] You learn the tricks and the tools to keep it at bay.

[713] describe, I believe, the fear of that looming depression or, you know, I guess the fear of going back to former ways or finding yourself in that situation as being quite a scary thing.

[714] Is it a scary thing, something you're scared of?

[715] I don't want to mischaracterise your words there, but is it something that sits at the back of your mind in terms of you know that you fear there might be, it's like a catalyst.

[716] There could be one thing that could...

[717] Yeah, the thing I fear the most is depression.

[718] Because, you know, I've always felt like there's a fire in my belly.

[719] And even, you know, mostly at my lowest of points, I can go, this will pass.

[720] We can do this.

[721] But there were times within my depression where I had doubted back.

[722] and yeah that's my friend i'm like you should admit it for a good to she's yeah my biggest fear is it's that you know really overwhelming the depression where you doubt if you can make it true beyond it you had do you had those moments post mainly where you didn't think you'd be there was doubt whether you'd be able to make it through a moment Is this post -leaving the Spice Girls predominantly or was their moments throughout the experience where It's never, we've never efficient to go to the Spice Girls.

[723] Oh, really?

[724] Yeah.

[725] We topped that decision because there was so much press, you know, interest in us at the time.

[726] So, you know, I was really, really struggling.

[727] We were working on Forever, which is the third album as a full piece without Jerry.

[728] And I worked on my son and records.

[729] And I was having a really, really hard time.

[730] and it was too much.

[731] I found the environment too much and I think the girls knew me too well.

[732] You know, I was dealing with these demons, these inner demons and they could just read me like a book and I just didn't want to be in their company because I had to do with it myself, you know?

[733] So I did want to leave the band, but we took the decision to never efficiently split up because we didn't want the press intrusion.

[734] We were 10 -5.

[735] I mean, I looked at once on a TV show, I did a show with Frank Skinner and I used past tense I said when I was a spice girl or whatever the wording I used was and the press jumped on it and there was camera crews like from half a minute and they chased me down the road and yeah and it was just like we couldn't none of us could face and the beauty of that is now we kind of feel like at the time we needed separation you know we'd be like this our lives have been so intertwined that we needed that space but now we've had time to do that and grow and become individuals and mums and and have these separate lives we can come back together and we really enjoy each other and respect each other so we quite like that we've never slept you've been always with spice girls when people say former spice girl i'm a former spice girl i am a spice girl and we will always all these spice girls even think totally which you didn't answer to the turn lady she's to the very, very important part of that shit.

[736] 2019, you know, you recount in your book about how coming back together was actually really pleasant experience and it taught you a lot about your previous time together in the Spice Girls.

[737] But let's start with the point about Victoria then.

[738] A lot of, a lot was written about that.

[739] Obviously, when press do interviews, they're trying to twist your words and find something, wow, how can we turn them against each other?

[740] Like, that's what, that's the game, right?

[741] So how did you all feel when, you know, you knew that Victoria wasn't coming back to the group and you were going to be doing it as a full.

[742] Yeah, there was a few feelings about that because obviously they were gutted.

[743] But you would be.

[744] You wanted to go, totally want to be.

[745] And we were scared because we go, are people going to want us as a four piece in a different configuration?

[746] And the thing is, you know, let's not, you know, well, let's be honest here, Victoria is a huge international icon.

[747] You know, she has gone on to be something in her own great, you know, in their fashion world, in the world of celebrities.

[748] She's much bigger than the others of us individually.

[749] I don't think anything's as big as the spice girls.

[750] You know, we all feel like.

[751] But without her, it's like, we can't take her seriously.

[752] So, yeah, so there was different feelings around it.

[753] The wonderful thing about it was she was very supportive and it was really important for us to make sure she was, so she was involved creatively.

[754] You know, we wanted us to sound.

[755] and everything got.

[756] We wanted her to know effectively what we were going to do.

[757] And it was such an incredible experience.

[758] It felt like she was part of it anyway.

[759] Why didn't you, I didn't, I missed the story at that time, but why didn't she want to be, what was her public statement?

[760] What was the reason?

[761] The public statement is because of family and commitments.

[762] Okay.

[763] Which is completely, you know, understandable.

[764] But I think, you know, on a more personal level, and I think this has been said, I don't think she'd mind me saying, when we did the Olympics in 2012, young she had a really hard time okay it was she was petrified I mean we were all bloody petrified but to the point was worth it yeah yeah but I think it was so you know it was you tell a lot of anxiety and online like performance that she was like you know what girls and put them at empty cheetah um away so yeah so we totally go you know we respected her decision and but yeah we're still sad about it but you know what we went on to have the most successful toll we've ever done with her blessing sadly without her but we did it and it was incredible and it really is truly some of my happiest spice girl's memory one of the things that I wish I'd ask Liam Payne when I spoke to him about one direction and the group dynamic and then what happens when the group are no longer making music at the time I don't want to say split up because that is a bit loaded but when they're no longer together is what happens in the outside world in the media is people then start comparing the post -band successes and I think this can be very very toxic because you're then being compared against in the case of like one direction these four five other individuals you're then sort of measured your life then becomes measured against who did the best after it was measured during as you talk about in magazines where they said who is the hottest and who is the this yeah exactly but then post you've got you know as it relates to one direction you've got harry styles who is just you know untouchable untouchable and i and i and i wonder like no matter how how amazing the objective success is of like another member are they they're always compared to this person how true is that in your case um yeah it's true it's so hard it's so hard to go on and and become a solo artist because you like this is what like really draws me mad about the media right they told you things you already know it's like you know just in you they just want the spice girls I know um but no I mean that isn't totally true but yeah you're right it's really really hard because you get compared so much within the band and then post the band but it's like you know you have you have to have this logical brain don't you where you go how do you measure success You know, for me, the areas of my life, I am so happy and so successful.

[765] And then there are this, they need a bit of work.

[766] But I think as a funny grown adult, you have to go, stop comparing yourself.

[767] You know, other people might want to do it, but you can't do me. We all do it.

[768] We all look on Instagram.

[769] We're going to look at all that works amazing.

[770] Bullshit.

[771] No one's life is amazing.

[772] Nothing is right here.

[773] There's been going on.

[774] So I think, yeah, it's just we go off.

[775] don't be on a little tangent sometimes, but it's just to just come back home and, yeah, concentrate on the important things.

[776] When you went on that, the reunion tour, what did you learn about your former experience from that tour?

[777] I meant it was a shame that we couldn't fully appreciate it at the time because, and you're never going to change history, and you're never going to change things in moving forward, because it's so chaotic and you at the time, that you'll just be a little bit of survivalment.

[778] You know, you just kind of, it's going to emotions.

[779] You know, I meet younger artists now, like, I'd be lucky enough to meet me Alice a few times.

[780] And I can, I'll relate to her so much.

[781] I think I saw her perform at Shugwas Bush Empire, and she was already way too big to be playing that incredible venue.

[782] And all these predominantly teenage girls were screaming for her, screaming uptared, and singing her songs, and it just made me go right.

[783] back to the Spice Girl shows.

[784] I know she's very different as an artist, but I just kind of felt this kinship with her.

[785] And so at times, I just look at her and I kind of feel like I know what she's feeling and what she's coming through.

[786] So whenever I have the opportunity to see her, I just kind of have this little connect with her, which is like, why does that make you emotional?

[787] Because this incredible thing happens to you and it's hard to appreciate it because it's so intense, you know.

[788] Because that experience was so tumultuous for you, because there were so many difficulties, as you approached the reunion, was their fear of, you know, the former issues, as well as the good times, but also the bad times coming with that.

[789] Always.

[790] Whenever us girls get together, there's little triggers, you know, and I'm scared, but I have to face them because, you know, I've learned to experience of the other things I've gone on to do with the girls.

[791] we reunited in 2007 the Olympics 2019 faced the fear and actually beautiful things happen so yeah and you know we're much more mindful of each other now as well because you know everyone had their shit to deal with you know it wasn't paying so many so many for anyone was that too much of the reason you were inspired to write your book it totally was I mean sometimes I still question it I'm still questioning and get us asleep I just bet I started to be like my story's incredible you know I'm just I'm just a girl I'm a normal girl from the northwest working class background and I have achieved my dreams and I go on to work in this industry work as an international artist I mean it blows my mind when I think about what I've achieved what I'd continue to go on to do and I want to inspire people and I've gosh I've had hard times you know times when I thought I don't know if I can carry on.

[792] I don't know if I can carry on in this industry.

[793] I don't know if I can carry on in this life, but I've done it.

[794] And I just really hope that people can read this book and have a laugh.

[795] You know, there's been some funny bits, there's some great memories, but being inspired and I also have had some hope within it because, you know, I have, I personally for me, feel like I've been at back bottom at a time but I've worked some of my back up to like feeling okay and feeling great sometimes so yeah I know I know people lots of people struggle with some of their issue that fact to deal with why what stops you from writing this book sooner fear but scared a bit scared to go back to those times I knew it was going to be hard it was actually harder really yeah and recording the audio book which is something i definitely wanted to do that's a lot it's a lot because i think to write those words is one thing but then to speak them is something else and you can be interviewed and talk about the situation but kind of going through it chronologically is really really draining wow you've just been right um reading the audio book out in a studio you sit there alone in these um audio book recordings in a small room is that has that same experience and you read through this this book that you've just written um what was the hardest part for you to read i'm only halfway through okay i haven't even that's really tough but you know what's weird i wonder if you're advanced to sometimes it's the things you don't expect to get you, get you.

[796] But I got really upset the other day when I started reading a part.

[797] I probably remember which bit it was, but it really surprised me. Because I know there's like chapter 14, like ingrained in my brain chapter 14 is when I talk about like eating disorders and depression and and that, the really lowest point at my life.

[798] I know that's going to be hard to read.

[799] I've not got there yet.

[800] but yeah some of the other points have been quite emotional and is that part hard to read and recount now because because of those feelings you described earlier where you have the sadness for that younger version of yourself and you also said anger is that why it's hard to even read it out now I'm curious to see how I'm going to do on Chapter 13 because I think I've built up like this resilience to rate as well because I have spoken quite openly in the media about depression and eating disorders and I actually started talking about it probably before I was ready because at the time I felt like you know being a spice girl it felt like it was your duty that our lives were in the public domain and it was such a great time because there were so many things going on you know there was so much exposed about myself and other people in the entertainment industry and there's a phone hacking there were so many secrets and things that probably would never have made the papers but you know they were listening to people's messages we know that this is a fact so yeah there was this I felt that I had to spill my gut and I was still very ill you know I wasn't anywhere near on the road to uncovering you know it was just the very beginning for me so I've had to bend up the earth this wall around me so I wonder whether I can speak about that now and it not affect me emotionally.

[801] I'm curious to see.

[802] Is that all a good thing?

[803] I think it's a necessary thing.

[804] You know?

[805] Yeah.

[806] I think some of the other points in the book, you know, talking about my childhood and my parents.

[807] And they're quite new things.

[808] Not really discussed them ever before.

[809] So they're quite hard.

[810] And also, it's affected with the people.

[811] That's what's been held about this book.

[812] It's not just about.

[813] That's like fame.

[814] right?

[815] Dane just doesn't happen to you, does it?

[816] It happens to everybody around you.

[817] And they do not ask for it with their bad, bad them.

[818] So, and then the guilt kicks in again.

[819] There's a sort of guilt that touch to fame, I think.

[820] Where is your line in terms of sharing stuff?

[821] This is something that I always think about.

[822] Obviously, I have a podcast.

[823] So I talk a lot about my childhood and all the things that happened.

[824] And I've always wondered, you know, there's being transparent and honest because it will help others that have gone through that experience.

[825] And that's really important.

[826] and that's how we all learn you saying one thing can quite literally save lives.

[827] But where is your personal line in terms of, because you kind of alluded to it there where there's things where you just can't, maybe it's not the right time or...

[828] I think, you know, what's really important with this book is it's my story and it's in my words and it's my perspective.

[829] And I think the line for me is, you know, it's not my place to tell other people's stories.

[830] And, you know, to the point of hurting other people.

[831] That's, I can't, I couldn't live with myself.

[832] But I know sometimes we hurt people unintentionally.

[833] So that's probably my sheer around the book coming out now.

[834] Isn't it my intention to hurt anybody?

[835] I've tried to be very careful.

[836] But obviously, like your poem's reading and you feel about things, you know, that's going to hurt.

[837] One of the things as well that fascinated me was your relationship with, with money, you know, and this suggestion that you had almost guilt for your success.

[838] I've heard that a few times on this podcast, and it always seems to come from people that have a working class background.

[839] Can you tell me about that from your perspective?

[840] I think for me, it's, you know, all around me, all of my family, all of my friends' families, everybody worked really hard, really hard, whatever, you know, world day working, it could be manual labour, it can be, you know, I mean, my dad, God bless him, he's in his 70s, he's still travelling around the world, like a young man, doing this crazy job, doing super long hours, and, you know, my dad loves his job, but it's, you know, it's a necessity to work that hard to put food on the table, to paint the bills, right?

[841] I, my, my work can be hard.

[842] It can be grueling.

[843] But I go on stage and I sing and it's my and I'm very lucky to do it.

[844] And sometimes I could maybe earn in a day what people in my family might earn in a year, you know?

[845] And so the skills it's housed.

[846] When, um, when you think about the, the thing that made you successful the first time around, you, you talk about it a lot that, and I talk about it as well, that insecurities were one of my biggest drivers.

[847] They were this you know you're trying to fill some kind of void and you end up it ends up resulting in perfectionism and overworking and all those things how do you control that sort of those inner insecurities that i could probably ask this question in a different way those things that drove you then which ultimately are quite unhealthy and toxic and end up creating a lack of balance in one's life how do you stop those things driving you now how do you stop being toxic driven You know, I think it had to be aged, does that for you?

[848] Because you're so exhausted.

[849] Right, yeah.

[850] We've got the energy.

[851] You're right.

[852] To be that, you know, I think the thing is, you know, we live in there, don't we?

[853] And I'm a mum now.

[854] So I have a different set of priorities.

[855] I love my work.

[856] Sometimes I get the balance completely wrong.

[857] You know, I'm with the book and everything, my workload is huge right now.

[858] It's a school holidays, you know.

[859] I'm not around enough for my daughter, so it's eating me up inside.

[860] but you know I I will find the time and we've got holiday funded and I think it's just kind of you're running from past mistakes that you know be driven but not to the point where it's detrimental the biggest mistake I made as a young person was I believed other people knew better than I did no one knows better than you about you just listen and it's so beautiful I've been to a shaman's weekend with like really young people in front of me and I just look at them and I just think that all into the essence of you you know because I think when you're at kids and obviously people have different circumstances but this essence of you has all the answers it's all you need you know and then life comes in and just like makes it all a bit out of balance so I just like really encouraging people to just really you know trust that instinct I'm really I've been really I've been thinking a lot about that lately I've been thinking because when I go up on stage and I try and give people advice you know sometimes people will often and sometimes overcomplicate the answer.

[861] But as I've looked back at my own life and what I'm hearing from you as well is that I knew the answer the whole whole time, but there was a narrative that persuaded me to ignore it.

[862] So sometimes that can be your immigrant parents telling you to go and become a doctor or a lawyer when you really want to just dance.

[863] And so you kind of place their narrative over the top of your own feeling.

[864] And then the other one can sometimes be social media, which tells you that you should be an X or a Y or Zed.

[865] But inside of you, you, I think it's really liberating to consider that you might already have all the answers if you just listened and tuned out these other voices.

[866] Easier said than done.

[867] Super easier said than done.

[868] Almost impossible.

[869] Yeah.

[870] And I think the thing is as well, it's like, because you think, it can't be that.

[871] Yeah.

[872] Yeah.

[873] Yeah.

[874] Yeah.

[875] Maybe.

[876] Maybe.

[877] Especially if the answer is happiness.

[878] If it is material success, then maybe you should go and be a doctor.

[879] But if it is happiness, which I think is the answer in the long time.

[880] If you don't want to avoid a mid -life crisis when you're in your doctor's suit at 40, and you go, what the fuck am I doing here?

[881] Whatever.

[882] Maybe that is the approach to take.

[883] But someone say, lighten the series of chapters, right?

[884] So what's right at one point?

[885] Like change.

[886] So I think that's, you know, that is the thing as well.

[887] It's like, okay, a decision might be made and you're following a path.

[888] And then at some point, you're like, you know what, this is working for me anymore so you can change.

[889] I think that's, I think that's one powerful to know.

[890] I mean, it's fucking scary.

[891] And not everybody has the look.

[892] You've just going, I'm going to change, right?

[893] I'm going to get, I want to change.

[894] You know, we've got to you, whatever.

[895] And I think what's powerful is, truly, you have the power.

[896] You just got to find a way to do it.

[897] Yeah.

[898] The practical way to.

[899] I think that's the most important thing.

[900] One of the other things I wanted to ask you about is when I reflect on my own early upbringing with my parents and the model of love that they think, taught me. Not all great.

[901] What impact did the model of relationships and the separation of your parents have on your own model of a relationship in love, if any?

[902] I think the biggest impact about my parents' relationship and breakdown of their relationship and my child to tell me is that I yearn for a family.

[903] I yearn for that security.

[904] And I have a little girl.

[905] I have a little girl.

[906] I'm not with her dad.

[907] And that was really difficult because I didn't want from my little girl what had come to me. So yeah, I think I'm always, I'm always looking for that environment that I don't feel like I've ever really had.

[908] We have got one last question for you.

[909] So the last guest asks a question for the next guest, but they don't know who they're asking the question to.

[910] So they write a question in the book.

[911] I don't see it on my mother's life.

[912] I don't see it until I open the book.

[913] That was the last question.

[914] Okay.

[915] Here we go.

[916] This is interesting because it's a question we've been asked once before.

[917] So it's interesting that it's come up twice.

[918] What is a pain that you enjoy having?

[919] Oh, okay.

[920] This is interesting.

[921] I've had a little emotional turmoil recently.

[922] And I was in the gym and I was stretching to the point where it hurts, but it felt good.

[923] And I think sometimes, and this is a little bit so calmy, I think, like physical pain sometimes would alleviate.

[924] Like, you know, when I'm exercising to the point of it hurting can help with my emotional pain.

[925] You know, exercise is a really interesting thing because, you know, obviously I have a difficult relationship with it in a sense because I used to exercise.

[926] acceptedly, which I don't anymore but I do exercise a lot and I do it for my head more so than my body at times you know, it's really, really important to me but I can feel so low and so tired and so lethargic and I can go to the gym and I'm a changed person in that, you know, it's like it's a miracle drug right?

[927] It's the endorphins, the serotonally meth -produced, whatever happens it's like when people say to me, oh you know, How do you encourage people to do exercise?

[928] And it's like, listen, just go.

[929] No pressure.

[930] Say, I'll do 10, 50 minutes.

[931] And I bet you're there for an hour.

[932] I completely agree.

[933] That is, when I was first, when that first, when that question first came into this book, my immediate response was exercise.

[934] And I've never really thought.

[935] I was always curious as to whether there was an element of like escapism there as well.

[936] And I'm always conscious about escaping issues or, and then when you refrained at, when you described it then as you're going through an emotional pain and the pain of the exercise almost helps to relieve that it's quite a curious thing because I understand the endorphins and all the chemicals and stuff but the pain itself being a medicine is an interesting concept yeah the other thing I think with exercises because you say about it because I view running sometimes like that thing is running away you know if you're running no one can catch you you're running you're running right but it also much you're going present you know when you are running you are present and I've actually done a problem solving when I've been running.

[937] Had some like the epiphanies as well and so it's, I think exercises, you know, we were built to move.

[938] Let's do it.

[939] Melanie, thank you so much.

[940] Thank you so much.

[941] Thank you so much.

[942] And your book is truly important.

[943] I think that's the best way to describe it because the depth of your honesty and the uniqueness of your experience means that it offers so much to so many people And even someone that obviously, I mean, there's probably not, there's probably almost no one on planet Earth that can relate to the experience itself.

[944] But the lessons that are within your book and the lessons that you've managed to pull out of those experiences are lessons that we can all use to change our life.

[945] And I said to you before we started recording that I usually don't make that many notes and I just, I made way too many.

[946] And it's really because I had so, I gained so much from reading it about, you know, even my own life, having not walked in your shoes that really helped me in so.

[947] many ways.

[948] And I know that everyone listening to it is going to gain so much from it.

[949] But I also really have to specifically thank you for your honesty around the eating disorders and your depression because that will quite literally save people's lives.

[950] And you may never see it.

[951] You may never, you know, get to hear directly from those people.

[952] But I assure you of that.

[953] It's definitely, definitely will.

[954] So.

[955] Well, I thank you so much for saying that because I've been honest in the interview to say that I still fear releasing this book.

[956] But you know what?

[957] If it, If that is the case and to hear that from you, then I feel good about it and getting it out there.

[958] Thank you.