256 - Live at the Fillmore in Detroit, MI (2017)

[0] This is exactly right.

[1] It has a new obsession.

[2] I'd like to tell you guys about it.

[3] It's this fucking flag that the Mitten Murderino's made us.

[4] She hasn't put it down since we got here.

[5] There's something about a flag, everybody.

[6] It doesn't matter what size it is.

[7] All right.

[8] I feel like I went to Yale in the 50s.

[9] She suddenly started doing fucking stage work.

[10] What do they call it?

[11] when you walk around the stage?

[12] Space work.

[13] That was when we stopped doing live shows.

[14] Hi, everybody.

[15] Sorry about the flag stuff.

[16] I just don't like anything, so when I actually like something, it's so exciting.

[17] Everything sucks, and I hate it, and then I'm like, oh, my God.

[18] That was a flag bit of the show.

[19] I'm drunk off that flag.

[20] I'd like to address my fishnet tight marks on my legs because last, thank you, last show I was like, these tights, they're so rad, they're spanks and tights and tites and by the end of the show they were like down to here, they had like rolled to here.

[21] So I went backstage and just fucking ripped them off.

[22] But they cost too much to throw away, so I'm like, I'll wear them again someday.

[23] just not on stage where I kept doing this thing and then I think I flashed everyone on accident too and I did it once so.

[24] You're saving them for a special occasion like at a party where you can pull them up the whole time or something like that, right?

[25] Right, amongst friends.

[26] I also normally, sorry, normally we wear fancy dresses because we get to do shows in these awesome theaters so we like to dress for the occasion.

[27] When we arrived at the show tonight, I turned to Georgia very sincere.

[28] dearly and said, I forgot my dress.

[29] At the hotel.

[30] Forgot my dress at the hotel.

[31] And then for a second, I think Vince was like, do you want me to go back and get it?

[32] And then I was like, oh, no, because I forgot to buy shoes entirely.

[33] So like, even if you'd want to get the dress, I would have had to wear these with the dress.

[34] And it all fell apart.

[35] And then I was like, yeah, I'm going to wear this weird Gap shirt then.

[36] I was like, you're dressed like a goth already.

[37] Right.

[38] The only rule, because there's no rules because we made it all up.

[39] is you have to wear black.

[40] So fucking wear what you're wearing.

[41] So I was still within the boundaries of the contract that we have about outfit.

[42] She was like, what if we wear it already now?

[43] And I'm not kidding, you had a like 1970s sweater that had pink hearts on it.

[44] And it looked like something, what's her face from Twin Peaks would be wearing?

[45] Audrey?

[46] I'm going to wear my dress still, but you're in black so you can totally wear it.

[47] Yeah.

[48] No, I think it worked out fine.

[49] But I did leave on my shitty shoes in solidarity.

[50] Yeah.

[51] And for comfort reasons.

[52] So, take a look at these.

[53] If you've never heard the podcast before, this is the kind of heart -wrenching stuff we talk about the entire time.

[54] This is my favorite murder, the True Crime Comedy Podcast.

[55] Thank you.

[56] Welcome.

[57] That's Karen Kiel Kare.

[58] And that's Georgia Hard Star.

[59] Thank you.

[60] I thought we were going to both do it.

[61] It was a flag cue.

[62] Flag cue.

[63] Wait, tell them the story about your discovery mid -j -j - Mid -show, last show.

[64] You know how some episodes I think of something really stupid and then just scream it in the middle because I get so excited about it?

[65] Well, this time Karen was telling her murder story and like something happened where someone was like, and then they did this thing and it's like clearly, and I went to go red flag and then I just instead went, like a fucking idiot.

[66] And also didn't explain it right away.

[67] It just seemed like I was just waving the flag in a really inappropriate time.

[68] Wait a second, red flag.

[69] I was just like, are you listening to me at all?

[70] We're supposed to be doing a show together.

[71] I ate a cony dog.

[72] Oh, that's right.

[73] Vince brought, I was in the hotel, my murder of Vince comes to the hotel and he's like, cony dogs.

[74] And I'm like, rad.

[75] And he bought a next door and I was like, go give it to Karen.

[76] And he goes, she doesn't want one.

[77] Well, hold on.

[78] No, I'm sorry.

[79] I did not need to throw you under the bus.

[80] No, no, no, you didn't.

[81] But when I got the text from Vince, it was, do you want me to bring you a cony dog?

[82] Which to me, in my mind, I was like, they're at a cony dog place.

[83] together and Vince, they're wondering if they want to bring it back and then the idea of that is like do you want to eat a coney dog alone in your hotel room in the dark?

[84] Like we know you always do.

[85] Of course not all have this apple.

[86] We didn't invite you to get the coney dog with us.

[87] It was a couple's only coney dog out of it.

[88] Couples only cony dog, which is very rude.

[89] And then secondly, do you want to eat in the dark with the curtains closed?

[90] I mean, yes.

[91] The answer is yes.

[92] I'm not going to tell you about it.

[93] I'm going to pretend like I have some self -control over my own.

[94] I mean, yeah.

[95] I wish you had just said in the text, I'm bringing Georgia.

[96] And then I'd be like, fucking bring me three.

[97] Oh, man, it's still in the hotel room out in this paper bag with trash on it.

[98] You're welcome when we get back.

[99] I have been, I just wanted you to describe to the people who already know, but, you know, Georgia used to be a host on the food network.

[100] And so she's kind of, yeah, she's kind of a food expert.

[101] And so I was like, I want you to tell me about the coney dog, but not normally.

[102] I need you to tell me like you would if you were on your food network show.

[103] And I have seven years training.

[104] Okay.

[105] American county dog in Detroit, Michigan.

[106] Actually, can you, okay, can you say it again, but say American coney dog in Michigan.

[107] Say it again and say it again and don't, leave off the state.

[108] Okay, that's like a weird controlling producer that's just trying to fuck with you.

[109] Right.

[110] And she's like, put down the fucking flag.

[111] You take a bite.

[112] you get this snap, and then you just get the crunch of the onions and the soft doughy, pillowy bread, bread, hot dog bun, and it's just delicious.

[113] And for the next three to four days, your fingers smell like cony dogs.

[114] No joke.

[115] I've showered, I've washed my hands multiple times because I have ADD, and they still smell like cony dogs.

[116] Is that the end of the Food Network segment?

[117] Yeah.

[118] You just go down and start talking about all these weird things you do with your coney dogs?

[119] And this is why I got fired from the I didn't get fired.

[120] What if the Food Network like the first person in history, they fired me?

[121] Yes.

[122] No, they didn't.

[123] They're like, we usually don't do this.

[124] We let people get super drunk on camera, but you you got to go.

[125] Yeah.

[126] It was really good, you guys.

[127] And he wanted me to tell everyone that he would normally go to the other conny dog place, not American Lafayette, but they only accepted cash and he didn't have cash on them, but apparently everyone gets angry at each other about what cony dog place to go to.

[128] Yeah.

[129] It's very important.

[130] We understand.

[131] It's crucial.

[132] It was good.

[133] I mean, Vince claims to be from here, so you have to prove it.

[134] You can't just go to whatever Coney Dog.

[135] Well, you know he's from here because he'll hold up his hand and point to a place that he says we're going to.

[136] But I fucking swear to God every time he points at the same place, like he's fucking with me. Because I'm like, well, where are we going to go, you know, on this day?

[137] Because we came early to go on the shopping.

[138] He's like, well, so we're actually going to go here.

[139] and, like, points at his hand, and I go, uh -huh, okay, cool.

[140] I have no fucking clue what he's talking about, and I don't want to tell him.

[141] He's here under my control.

[142] What?

[143] Okay, because, you know, we normally go here, and, oh, uh, the mitten, the mitten.

[144] I'm from Southern California.

[145] This is Southern California, actually.

[146] We're from down here.

[147] We're from over here on the coast.

[148] Well, you're not down by the elbow, Sandy Ago.

[149] Gross.

[150] I don't want to steal your rad joke, but this is where.

[151] we're from.

[152] We're actually from here.

[153] Right here.

[154] Right at the tip of that one is where I'm most used to being.

[155] That was Karen.

[156] I don't want to take credit for that incredible joke.

[157] And I won't.

[158] And I refuse to.

[159] Oh, we got a gift.

[160] Did you bring it?

[161] Oh, fuck.

[162] I didn't bring it.

[163] Did we bring that bag?

[164] Is the bag there?

[165] No. Okay.

[166] Well, we'll just describe it.

[167] We'll just describe it.

[168] Don't worry about it.

[169] No, no, no, Vince.

[170] Mental, no. Okay, so one of the people that worked here came up and they said, someone that's going to be at the next show brought you this gift, but they're so excited they need you to have it now.

[171] And he said, and I, they showed me a picture of it, so I knew what was in it.

[172] And he goes, and it's really awesome.

[173] And then we pull the tissue off the top of the bag.

[174] And out comes, what looks kind of like a bowling trophy, but that's been very, very adjusted.

[175] And the bottom...

[176] I brought it.

[177] So the...

[178] Thanks, man. I thought the verbal was way better.

[179] So there it is.

[180] And on the bottom, it says, the fucking word is trophy.

[181] And there's some arms and some eyes and some hair.

[182] Troffies.

[183] This guy's carrying a knife, and then he's got a head in his other hand.

[184] Made this.

[185] Oh, Julie Rose, Kelly Lynch, Melissa Lynch, you talented motherfucker!

[186] The Lynch, Kelly Rose and the Lynch sisters, delivering it once again.

[187] I mean, if all gifts could help us this way, like, send us a gift that shows us how to correctly pronounce city names, that'd be great.

[188] I don't know if it would be like dinner mats or something.

[189] That would be great.

[190] That was amazing.

[191] That's amazing.

[192] Now we have a pneumonic aid.

[193] Yeah.

[194] So we'll always remember.

[195] Trophy.

[196] Should we sit down?

[197] Wait, first we need to talk to the boyfriends who've been forced to come here.

[198] I think it's important.

[199] There's people who already don't know what's going on, and we haven't even really talked about anything.

[200] And I know that that's very alienating, and now we're going to sit down and talk true crime and make jokes.

[201] It's all very bewildering, and we understand.

[202] We just want to know that you're our friends, too, and we care about the old.

[203] Oilers and stuff, whatever you like.

[204] We also like that, too.

[205] What?

[206] Oilers?

[207] The Oilers?

[208] The lions?

[209] The Red Wings?

[210] It's right here.

[211] It's here.

[212] It's right here.

[213] And then you go, oh.

[214] What was the, we were in some state, and I was like, what's your guys's baseball team, the alligators or whatever?

[215] I said like the snakes.

[216] The rattlesnakes.

[217] The rattlesnakes.

[218] It wasn't the.

[219] rattlesnakes.

[220] It was like the pirate.

[221] I don't know where.

[222] It doesn't exist.

[223] We don't know where we are.

[224] Anyhow.

[225] That's our way of saying hi.

[226] We pretend to be nice and then we insult you twice.

[227] That's how you do it.

[228] The thing, this is a true crime comedy podcast.

[229] Also when we sit down, guys and ladies who don't know who we are, they're going to applaud and it's weird.

[230] And then when we say what murders were doing.

[231] I don't know.

[232] And we sit down and nothing happens.

[233] They're like, why are they warning us about things that don't?

[234] I know.

[235] Well, now you know.

[236] Now you know to applaud.

[237] What if it never happened before?

[238] And I just really wanted to be applauded while I said...

[239] No, applause!

[240] Pandering.

[241] It doesn't make a ton of sense.

[242] We forgot something.

[243] There was like a second wave of even more intense cheering.

[244] Did Stephen pull his shirt up or something?

[245] What was that?

[246] He's wearing my spanks.

[247] He's like, George, I thought it'd be funny.

[248] Steven's here.

[249] Steven's here.

[250] It's great to have Stephen at the live shows.

[251] He's a very grounding presence.

[252] We always like to have his mustache around.

[253] It's just nice.

[254] And then people get so genuinely excited for Stephen the podcast producer.

[255] It's like a whole new area of celebrity that has not existed before.

[256] No. We had no idea.

[257] And like, yeah, we'd have to go.

[258] Karen, you know I'm all about vintage shopping.

[259] Absolutely.

[260] And when you say vintage, you mean when you physically drive to a store.

[261] and actually purchase something with cash.

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[278] Goodbye.

[279] Are you ready to do this thing?

[280] I'm ready.

[281] Yeah, it looks like it.

[282] George's first this show.

[283] Yeah, I'm first.

[284] It's her turn.

[285] So I hold the flag.

[286] Well, it's my turn.

[287] This is the turn flag.

[288] The whole time.

[289] Or I can hold it, and then when you're done, I'll go like this.

[290] Uh -huh.

[291] A flourish.

[292] To show that I'm done.

[293] That's all I've ever wanted in my life.

[294] All right.

[295] Well, this is the story of the death of Robin Bowes.

[296] Okay.

[297] July 30th, 2002, in the town of Zeeland, Michigan.

[298] Oh, is this old Zealand?

[299] I've been to New Zealand.

[300] I was like, if I say, it's spelled Z -E -E -L -N -D, if I say this wrong.

[301] Because you know they like pronounce it.

[302] Differently, it's called Ziland, and then I get yelled at.

[303] Yeah.

[304] But it's spelled Zeland.

[305] Every time.

[306] Thank you.

[307] It's about 180 miles from here.

[308] Great.

[309] It's up over here.

[310] It's here.

[311] It's here.

[312] It's the rare pinky city that no one, does anyone ever go like, hey?

[313] It wasn't actually a question.

[314] Thank you so much.

[315] I found my.

[316] Okay.

[317] This is like when you read the Torah, you have to have like a special pointer because you can't touch it.

[318] So now I can't read.

[319] you should go down to your local temple and be like, I have a new idea, Rabbi, you're going to love the Torah again.

[320] And they're like, you're not Jewish anymore.

[321] Get the fuck out of here.

[322] We haven't seen you for 25 years.

[323] And we read your tweets.

[324] Oh my God, what if your home temple was like, we're so disappointed in your Twitter presence?

[325] I, J .C., I need you to love me. Um, mom, mom, mom.

[326] Okay, about 180 miles.

[327] So, the morning of July 2, 2002, neighbors noticed smoke coming from the, um, Boo's family residence, B -O -E -S.

[328] And firefighters get to the house, they battle the flames and not realize that anyone was in the house.

[329] Oh.

[330] And then a short time later, they discovered the body of 14 -year -old high school freshman Robin Bowes in her bedroom.

[331] Robin died of smoke inhalation and what looked like a blast of fire that had caused her eyebrows and hairs to be singed.

[332] And she was face down inside her bedroom door.

[333] Karen Robin's mother was the last to leave that house that morning around 8 .55 in the morning.

[334] And she went and picked up her friend to go shopping in Grand Rapids a few minutes before nine.

[335] Everyone loves it.

[336] Just five minutes before the fire started is when she picked up her friend.

[337] A few minutes after Karen and her friend arrived at the shopping center in Grand Rapids, around 930, they receive a call informing Karen of the fire.

[338] So they rush home.

[339] She has to be given a shot of Valium to keep her from running inside of the house.

[340] Fuck, yeah, she does.

[341] She knew her daughter was inside of hers.

[342] Yes, of course.

[343] On the sidewalk, they give her a shot of Valium.

[344] Isn't that insane?

[345] I mean, it's great.

[346] Yeah.

[347] The idea that that woman even had to go through that is a nightmare.

[348] She could just be like, give me the Valium.

[349] Firefires begin to search the house.

[350] Sorry, quick idea.

[351] Just EpiPen style volume shots.

[352] For the age we're in and the time we're in and the, wouldn't it be nice?

[353] Don't they have lollipops?

[354] Valium lollipopop.

[355] I think they have like crazy narcotic lollipops.

[356] There was definitely an episode of intervention.

[357] I swear to God.

[358] Where someone was eating Valium lollipops?

[359] They were just constantly sucking on Valium lollipops, which I didn't even know is a thing.

[360] I don't even know.

[361] They just don't work on me. Any kind of thing, I'm just like, gina, I don't know how people can actually want to do that.

[362] I mean, I feel like any pill that's lollipop size is going to work on me. I'm going to let it.

[363] I'm going to let it.

[364] Do you remember the one in intervention where the woman sat in a folding chair in her garage smoking and taking pills all day.

[365] That thing filled me with such intense anxiety because I was like, this is absolutely going to happen to me. There was like nothing about it that I couldn't see doing.

[366] You related to every little bitty part of it.

[367] She couldn't smoke inside her own house, which is good.

[368] So she'd go into the garage with the door shut and a folding, one of those like, from the drugstore folding chairs, and then people would have, to come out and visit her in the garage while she was just fucking pilled out and just like chain smoking Virginia slams.

[369] And I was like, this is my future.

[370] There's no way I'm not going to do this.

[371] I relate in every way to like, when you're so overwhelmed that you're like, what about absolute stillness and being high all the time as a solution?

[372] In a beach chair.

[373] In a beach chair.

[374] In a beach chair.

[375] Go on.

[376] Hopefully that woman got the help you needed.

[377] Let's just do this episode about intervention episodes, because I've got 10 more I need to talk about.

[378] There was one where the girl started drinking in the bathroom during the intervention.

[379] Do you remember that?

[380] She's like, hold on a second, I have to go to the bathroom, and she's fucking, as if no one was going to know.

[381] I'm such an alcoholic.

[382] It's insane.

[383] We were both addicts.

[384] We're not making fun.

[385] No. We're living it.

[386] It's tough because a lot of times, like a flask really does seem like the salutes.

[387] Yep.

[388] And it is.

[389] Sometimes it is.

[390] Did you see the dude who was going to a festival recently, and so he went, and you can't bring your own alcohol in.

[391] So we went to the festival grounds three weeks early and buried a bottle of vodka.

[392] What?

[393] And everyone's like, yeah, guy, good idea.

[394] And you're like, stop drinking.

[395] Dude.

[396] The solution is to stop drinking.

[397] Dude, when's the last time you paid a bill on time, but you're fucking burying a bottle three weeks early?

[398] Yeah.

[399] Like, no judgments.

[400] This guy clearly is smart and crafty.

[401] Use it for good.

[402] I love him.

[403] Save babies.

[404] All right.

[405] So Valium, that's where that started.

[406] Oh, yeah.

[407] It started because an awful thing happened.

[408] Right, let's get back.

[409] Yeah.

[410] Let's sink back down.

[411] We're sinking back.

[412] Okay.

[413] So firefighters begin to search the house just to do a once -round thinking, you know, obviously it was an accident, but they have to do some investigation.

[414] They, oh, I've heard, they found, okay, forgot to if I can mention this part.

[415] So you know how I hate I hate false confession Well this is from the confession tapes The new TV show?

[416] Yeah the new Netflix TV show Yeah I'm meant to tell you guys that This case is from that?

[417] This case So I watch the whole thing about it And so they get into the house And they go into her room Where most of the fire had happened There in the hallway And in the middle, I mean a photo In the middle of the fucking room There's a five gallon gas can in the middle of her bedroom.

[418] Here it is.

[419] Take a look at this, mother fucking shit.

[420] Oh, shit.

[421] In the middle, that's in the middle of her bedroom.

[422] Yeah.

[423] Why is it there?

[424] I kind of like that they're like the black boxes of fires where you'd think that would burn really quickly because it's what's filled with gas.

[425] Right.

[426] But it's like, no, I'm here to tell a story.

[427] Guess what?

[428] You're not getting away with shit.

[429] And the reason I'm doing this case, even though I fucking, false confession, stress me out so much that I had to turn the show off initially and have a panic attack real quick before I went back to it.

[430] See, and then your EpiPen Valium would have, I mean, imagine.

[431] Where's my lollipop?

[432] The reason is because this is the only one where I was I'm so conflicted about what actually happened.

[433] All the other ones it was like, well obviously this is a false confession and they didn't do it.

[434] This one, I don't freaking know.

[435] And so I need your help with telling me why there's a fucking gas can at the middle of the bedroom.

[436] in a minute.

[437] In the meantime, oh, and in the show, the firefighter who found the gas can was like, whoa, he picks it up, there's video of it, slashes it around, and he's like, and my dad, who was the fire chief, I turned around and say to him, whoa, look at this.

[438] And he says, and my dad said, throw it out the window.

[439] But I knew that would be a bad idea, so I left it.

[440] And then they just, like, moved on to the next scene.

[441] And I was like, your dad should be fire?

[442] He's like, I know that it'd be a bad idea, so I call the fire investigators instead.

[443] Throw it out the window.

[444] I'm sure there's a reason for that.

[445] As the daughter of a fireman, I would just like to say, that's classic fireman move.

[446] Like, get that thing out of here.

[447] It's all very...

[448] Maybe he was like, an ember's going to spark it again.

[449] Maybe it was actually really smart, and the sun was kind of done.

[450] There might have been logic behind it, but there also could have been that thing where, like, if you have a parent who's a fireman, you know, like, they will not turn the heater on in the winter.

[451] Like, there's just a certain personality style where it's like, it's a, all very like, I'll take care of this.

[452] Throw it out the window.

[453] Or I'm just like, all right, I don't have to listen to you anymore.

[454] Okay.

[455] But I could be wrong about this guy.

[456] We're usually not.

[457] Investigators are called to the scene.

[458] They initially, and a lot of people still suspect that Robin committed suicide in this manner.

[459] But by the next day, and initially investigators said too, but by the next day they brought in Karen, the mother for questioning.

[460] She came involuntarily, didn't ask for a lawyer, so it wasn't given her right, Miranda rights.

[461] She was given a lie detector test, which she was told she failed miserably.

[462] So at this point, investigators mentioned the gas can to her, and she tells them that it had been missing for two weeks.

[463] This is like their family gas can.

[464] I don't know if that's a thing in Michigan.

[465] It has its own chair, every Thanksgiving.

[466] Well, when you live here, you have a family gas can.

[467] People here love gas can.

[468] I miss that.

[469] I was talking so much.

[470] That was funny.

[471] Thanks.

[472] Thanks, Georgia.

[473] So it had gone missing, and there had been like a fire, like a little bonfire looking thing.

[474] I'd start in the backyard a couple weeks before the fire in the house.

[475] So they were like maybe the neighborhood boys got it.

[476] And we're starting, you know, just having camping fires.

[477] I don't know.

[478] But as soon as she, as soon as they said to her, so there was a missing gas can, Karen says, find it in her bedroom did you but and that's one of the things that like the prosecutors eventually like boom but it's also like she she knows her daughter died in a fire she knows her as a missing gas can and then they say to her there was a missing gas can she's like putting it together worst case scenario right so that is the obvious next step so it's like ah frustrating did that okay after 16 hours of an investigation 16 hours i'm sorry interrogation oh oh you know what i mean yes she insisted she didn't know anything that happened.

[479] They have all this video footage in the confession tapes.

[480] Her neighbor and friend, she went to church with him.

[481] She babysat his kids.

[482] Their kids went to school together and were friends.

[483] Chief only shows up to talk to her.

[484] He's the chief.

[485] So she's like...

[486] The police chief?

[487] The police chief.

[488] No, I thought maybe that fire chief had come back and be like, you know what?

[489] Take that lie detector machine and throw it out the window.

[490] So at this point, it's like 10 hours into the investigation and she's starting to question herself and And you can see that she's trying to help because she doesn't understand what's going on.

[491] And the biggest thing to her is that she trusts the lie detector test more than she trusts her own memory.

[492] So she starts saying things like, I don't think I did it.

[493] I don't know if I don't think I did it.

[494] And when he walks in the room in the video, she goes, apparently I did it.

[495] And he goes, why?

[496] And she says, because of the lie detector test.

[497] So they're like, she did it and we need her to confess.

[498] So they're interrogating her.

[499] she doesn't believe her own memory.

[500] And her fucking daughter, she's grieving her daughter from the day before she died, out of her mind.

[501] Out of her daughter's dead.

[502] So they told her they found gas on her shoes and clothes, which I still don't know if it's true or not.

[503] They told her they have her fingerprints on the gas can.

[504] They say...

[505] Her gas can.

[506] The fire started right when she left the house, which is true.

[507] I mean, it's crazy how quickly it started.

[508] But that's also exactly when if a person wanted to start it, they would wait until she left the house.

[509] Right.

[510] And that her husband was upset, too, thinking that maybe she knew more than she was saying.

[511] So they're telling her this.

[512] And then they do the old, if you did do it, how would it have happened?

[513] Which is always the way to get people to explain a scenario that then they buy.

[514] And she said, I don't know, maybe I dreamed it at some point.

[515] And then they said, if you did dream it, how would that have happened?

[516] where you sleepwalking or in a dream state, how about your unconscious mind?

[517] And she starts to believe that she did it by mistake because she says there's no way she'd have done it on purpose.

[518] So she has no idea.

[519] She says maybe she had gone into Robbins' room that morning.

[520] Here's a scenario.

[521] And she slept to find the phone, saw the gas can.

[522] Maybe she had sloshed around to see what was in there and then maybe had lit a candle in her room.

[523] Right.

[524] She's just trying to put something together.

[525] Yeah, here's the only scenario that if it was my fault, here's how that would have happened.

[526] And then, so they find out that Karen and Robin had a strained, some say, stormy relationship ever since Robin turned 14, which is like, hi, I was, remember all the drug shit we were talking about?

[527] I mean, I mean, hi.

[528] She introduced me to the 14 -year -old that likes their mom, and I'll be like, hey, liar, what's up?

[529] Yeah.

[530] How's it going?

[531] Also, like, and we've talked about this on the podcast, from the age, as a latchkey kid, from the age of 7 to 14, I played with fire in the house constantly.

[532] That was kind of my pastime How fun that was to light things on fire And see how it paper burned Or like I once took tea in a paper towel And I wanted to smoke it And so I lit it on fire To smoke in front of the And it quickly caught on fire You lit the bed on fire When I was five, everyone knows about it With her mom home My mom was on the phone And she didn't pay enough attention to me So I lit the bed on fire It worked, it worked We do what we must But we've got to smoke a tea cigarette.

[533] Tea paper towel cigarette.

[534] I believe it was chamomile.

[535] It's epic.

[536] Ew.

[537] How did I know how to roll a job?

[538] God, you know what?

[539] I didn't.

[540] I bet I used tape on it too.

[541] Yeah.

[542] I bet I tried to smoke a taped paper towel with loose tea inside of it.

[543] Loose camomile tea.

[544] That's it anything.

[545] Where were the parents?

[546] Okay.

[547] Can Mr. O 'Connell tell us?

[548] Jerry, what the fuck were you people doing in the 80s when you weren't raising all of your children?

[549] Okay.

[550] Can you please?

[551] So they said that at 14, she began to rebel and hang out with a bad crowd.

[552] Karen admitted to her husband there were times that she hated Robin and that Robin had treated her like shit.

[553] Which, yeah, how many times have you?

[554] That's, yeah, having a teenager.

[555] It came out, so Robin's diary was in the room and not burned.

[556] So in the diary, it turned out that Robin wrote about having called Child Protective Services.

[557] on her father because he threw a piece of metal at her that didn't hit her in the head, but was close to her head.

[558] And the night before the fire, Wayne and Robin had gotten into a huge fight.

[559] So the family was supposed to go, I think, the next day or that weekend, away for a memorial weekend.

[560] And Robin didn't want to go.

[561] She was supposed to start a new job waitressing, so she wanted to come home early, and they were having a huge fight over that.

[562] Like, who wants to go camping with your family when you're 14?

[563] Right.

[564] And so...

[565] Or do anything with your family.

[566] I mean, stand near them.

[567] with them.

[568] So she said that they got in a huge fight and that Wayne, the father had kicked in the door and she wrote in her diary that she was scared.

[569] So they go to trial.

[570] Here we go.

[571] John D. With the mother's admission?

[572] Yeah.

[573] Based on that interrogation.

[574] Yeah, based on the confession.

[575] Do you know why they didn't look into the father and it was only the mother?

[576] So this guy, John D. Hahn, H -A -A -N, he wrote the fire investigation book.

[577] He wrote it.

[578] the book, used in fire investigation I wrote.

[579] He's the final word in fire investigation?

[580] Well, that's what he says.

[581] What does he say about throwing stuff out the window?

[582] Is there a chapter about...

[583] Did anyone read the book?

[584] Is what the question is.

[585] Well, he refers to it as the Bible of Fire Investigations, and he's one of those characters that you and I would be like, that I was like, oh, this guy, you know what I mean?

[586] Sure.

[587] Because he does admit later that he had to recount, recant his expert testimony in past cases, one of which is because the data had changed where three children were killed in a fire and the mother was charged with the murder based on his expert witness testimony.

[588] Uh -oh.

[589] Yeah.

[590] So, there we go.

[591] Okay, so, um, they conclude, he concludes that the fire started, so here's what they think.

[592] The fire started right outside the bedroom in the hallway with the door almost closed, that Karen had sprinkled gasoline all over the hallway, which was kind of like a closed -off, no window hallway.

[593] you know, like the 1980s of the house, those kinds of thing.

[594] Yeah.

[595] And that there was gasoline poured outside the door, and then the gas can was left there.

[596] And so what happened was in their mind that Robin woke up, saw smoke, so opened her bedroom door, at which time the oxygen fueled the fire, and it exploded in her face.

[597] That was there saying, because there was no gasoline, I don't know.

[598] Okay.

[599] It's just like there's so many sides to the story.

[600] David Smith is the defense arson expert says there was no gasoline spread in the hallway at all there was no traces of gasoline only in Robin's room and that possibly Robin had spread the gasoline intending to leave before it caught fire maybe to try to get out of going out of town or to get back at her family or because she was pissed off but maybe that ignited from a candle or a match and there was a photo there was like matches all over her floor like she lit candles and incense and shit as you do as a you meditate.

[601] I didn't know what meditating was.

[602] As a rebellious team.

[603] You put the doors on and you meditate.

[604] Okay.

[605] Okay, so here's what he said, and this is so fucked up.

[606] So there were no burns on the underside of her chin, and he says that matches someone leaning, a right -handed person leaning forward and looking down.

[607] Yeah.

[608] Because it protects here.

[609] And then basically it just went up into her face.

[610] That's what they're saying.

[611] Okay.

[612] Maybe by the fumes.

[613] So, veteran fire dog, Rhonda.

[614] Fire dog?

[615] Mm -hmm.

[616] Rhonda.

[617] Oh.

[618] I wish I had a photo of her.

[619] Fuck, I'm sorry.

[620] I bet she's a Delmation.

[621] She's not.

[622] She's like a black lab.

[623] Yeah, I don't know if they do Dalmatians anymore.

[624] So Rhonda comes into the house, and she, Rhonda's a dog, zeroes in on an overturned chair in the parents' room.

[625] and that had traces of gasoline on it that no one else, none of the fire investigators had even noticed.

[626] So if the dog hadn't been in there, they wouldn't have found that.

[627] And the other thing, it's so weird, okay, so maybe Robin did accidentally do it, and that's what I was thinking initially.

[628] But then I found out that Robin was in her underwear, had no shoes on, and I was thinking, wouldn't she, if she were planning on lighting this fire, wouldn't she have packed a bag, including her diary that was found out?

[629] Like, she wouldn't have left that on mind.

[630] No, she wouldn't have left it out, that's for sure.

[631] We would have had a bag, a ghost.

[632] bag, as they call it.

[633] And she would have had clothes on.

[634] So that's super weird.

[635] Also, during the polygraph test, Karen had admitted to having a fair a few years prior, the judge ruled it in admissible, but the jury had already heard it.

[636] So that kind of gave them pause about her.

[637] And then that turned Wayne against her husband, and he testified that she had snapped and he sought a divorce from her during the trial.

[638] Karen was convicted of first -degree murder for setting the fire.

[639] Wow.

[640] She was sentenced to life in prison without parole.

[641] And a lot of the jurors said that what sold them was that John D. Hand, the fire investigator, book writer, was so, like, line by line of line of what exactly happened and was so sure of everything that he was saying that to them, he had a good story.

[642] I said his story was better.

[643] And the other dude, David Smith, was like, I'm not going to conclusively say anything because you just nobody knows, and so because there were other possibilities around there, they didn't believe him.

[644] Yeah.

[645] So, sentenced to life in prison without parole, she has appealed the case to the point where she has no more appeals left.

[646] Then she maintains her innocence from prison.

[647] She's been there for 15 years.

[648] She's 61 years old now.

[649] And Kelly Lodenberg, who created the confession tapes and directs all the episodes, she's convinced that Karen didn't kill her daughter.

[650] The Innocence Project reports that 28 % of its 351 clients who were convicted of crimes only to be exonerated by DNA involved false confessions.

[651] I just don't know what happened and it's driving me crazy.

[652] It's one of those Jean -Bene things where it's like there's a couple different things that make sense to me and none of them make sense all the way.

[653] Yeah, you can track, you can kind of track any storyline that's happening.

[654] Because the fire expert reminds me of that blood spatter guy from the staircase.

[655] where that guy was like the same thing of talking very exacting and scientifically about this blood spatter only then a couple years later to have all of that evidence get overturned because it's total bullshit and he was making shit up he was literally like making making up these theories about blood spatter none of it was actually scientifically proven well it's just so crazy that I don't want to I have an idea of what I think happened or like what like two scenarios that I think could have happened.

[656] But either way, it's like she just reasonable doubt of these two, these options that were given in the trial, maybe she, even if I don't, I'm not convinced she didn't do it.

[657] There's reasonable doubt.

[658] There's reasonable doubt.

[659] And also, the worst part is than considering the fact, if she truly is innocent, she lost her child, she lost her, she just basically lost everything in this insane circumstance.

[660] Yeah.

[661] Oh, you can wave that now.

[662] So that's the story of Robin Booze.

[663] Wow.

[664] That's rough.

[665] Yeah.

[666] All right.

[667] Well, my murderer, I'm going to talk about a man named Lowell Amos here from Detroit.

[668] Most of the research from the story I'm about to tell you, I got from a website called the Malifactors Register.

[669] And it was written by a guy named Mark Gribbon.

[670] Okay, so I'm going to take you now back to December 9.

[671] 1994, 52 -year -old former General Motors plant manager, Lowell Amos, and his 37 -year -old wife, Roberta Maui Amos, are here in town attending a company executive party at the Athenian Hotel.

[672] And they go back to their suite at 1230 and start doing Coke.

[673] This is a very Coke -based story.

[674] This episode is brought you by drugs.

[675] Remember that one on intervention where the guys?

[676] was super addicted to coke and he looked like a like a surfer like he was he looked like he still had it together but he slept on the roofs of different hotels that he snuck into what again I was sitting there going I'm going to do this someday like you get one duvet and then you get like a chaise lounge by the pool he would sleep by the pool and then when people from the hotel found him he looked legit enough so he'd be like I'm in room 473 and they'd be like sorry sir I just love sleeping under the stars of the water tower.

[677] Okay.

[678] So they go back to their room to do Coke with a female friend.

[679] And this female friend later says that when she left the Amos' room at 4 .30 a. Imagine the conversations they were having in that non -smoking hotel room that they were absolutely smoking in the whole entire time.

[680] Coke is the worst because you just talk to people you would never normally talk to.

[681] Yeah.

[682] And you try to start a baby.

[683] with them.

[684] It's insanity.

[685] All right.

[686] So she says...

[687] I absolutely see the face of like a child in the front row, sorry.

[688] Don't do drugs.

[689] It's probably a gorgeous older lady who uses really good lotion.

[690] That's true.

[691] Don't worry about it.

[692] You don't know what you see.

[693] Okay, so when this friend leaves, she later says that Roberta seemed tired and groggy like she had been drinking and she was about to pass out.

[694] but that Lowell was jumpy and talkative.

[695] Had a lot of ideas about restaurants he wanted to start.

[696] You know, Coke stuff.

[697] Four hours later at 8 .30 a .m., an executive named Bert Crabtree.

[698] Classic.

[699] He is actually from Mad Men, but he went into this murder specifically.

[700] Bert, what's up?

[701] so Burt gets a panicked phone call from Lowell who's saying you have to come down to my room right now and he's freaking out.

[702] So Burt gets another and I think these guys ended up being that they worked at this company that Lowell Amos was associated with because I was like who would do, if somebody called my hotel room after a party and was like, get down here, I'd be like, or go fuck yourself, there's all these options.

[703] Because no matter what.

[704] I know the one I'm taking.

[705] Like are you out of your mind?

[706] Like the best possibility is he wants you to help him clean the room.

[707] Like that sucks.

[708] That's, yeah, and that's best case scenario.

[709] That's the best case scenario is fucking beer camps.

[710] Get down here right now and you're just like, I'll see you at the breakfast buffet, friends.

[711] Like, I was just at a crazy party.

[712] Okay, so, but Bert being the Bert crab tree that he is, goes down with another employee or guest from that party named Daniel Porcasi.

[713] And they go down to Amos's room.

[714] And when they get there, Lowell tells them, Roberta died in an accident.

[715] And he asked them for help cleaning up before the police come.

[716] Oh, yeah.

[717] Touch everything.

[718] Yeah.

[719] But also aid and abet this crime that may or may not have happened.

[720] Yeah.

[721] So Amos tells them he had gone to sleep.

[722] And when he woke up later, Roberta was dead.

[723] But they're both chilled by the way he explains this to him.

[724] Because he says to, he just says to them very coldly, she's laying there in the other room, cold is a mackerel.

[725] Oh, when mackerel's cold?

[726] I think they're quite cold when they come out of this dream.

[727] Okay.

[728] Yeah, it's a fish.

[729] That's when he, oh, he's.

[730] I mean, they're not, fish don't get that hot.

[731] He's guilty.

[732] That is a red flag.

[733] It's saying something stupid like that.

[734] So then, Lowell Amos asks Daniel to take his sport coat for him.

[735] And so he's like, sounds great, doesn't question it apparently, grabs it, throws it over, no, Dan, not Bert.

[736] Burt would never fucking do that.

[737] Burt's like, I don't want your coat, I'm out of here.

[738] I've got a big project due tomorrow.

[739] So on his way, driving home, Daniel Percasi looks inside the breast pocket of the coat, and he finds a small black leather case.

[740] And inside the case, there's a syringe with no needle and a foul -smelling washcloth.

[741] Ew.

[742] Fowl -smelling washcloth.

[743] Like, you don't want to hear those words.

[744] No. No. And, like, in what way?

[745] Then I'm just like this.

[746] Could it be mold?

[747] There's nothing worse when you go to wash your face, and somebody had left it on the ground, then put it in the washer, then left in the washer for two days, then put it in the dryer.

[748] And you're like, sweet, it's every kind of mold now on my face.

[749] Could have been that.

[750] And then there's also the thing of, like, a washcloth that smells bad, and then a foul -smelling washcloth just sounds so much worse.

[751] Fowl.

[752] Fowl smelling.

[753] It smelled like the evil of men.

[754] Or maybe it smelled like ducks.

[755] Get it?

[756] Yes, it's a foul pun, right?

[757] Yes.

[758] Give it up to her.

[759] I think I heard the first time that Mr. O 'Connell laughed was just my stupid dad pun.

[760] The dad's dad joke of all time.

[761] It really was.

[762] He was like, I hated this, and now I'm on board.

[763] Sweetie.

[764] Do more duck jokes.

[765] That's what I came here for.

[766] Why can't you talk about nice things?

[767] Why does he have a southern accent?

[768] Okay.

[769] Later on, Lowell Amos took his coat back, and then after that, the small leather case in its contents disappeared.

[770] Yeah.

[771] Okay.

[772] When he's interviewed by police, Lowell Amos explains, he and Roberta had engaged in sexual games involving cocaine.

[773] He claims that she was still doing.

[774] it when he fell asleep.

[775] According to Kim, she couldn't snort Coke because she had a sinus problem, and that he said that she took it inside her body, and that's how, that's the sexual games part is that she took Coke through her vagina.

[776] No. It's true.

[777] Somebody wooed for the vagina.

[778] That's very, very feminist of you.

[779] But police are confused by this story because, and as we all are, because they'd been doing Coke for four hours.

[780] And he's like, and then I fell asleep.

[781] No, you fucking didn't.

[782] No, you didn't.

[783] Yeah.

[784] You'd watch QVC before you would have fallen asleep, my friend.

[785] It doesn't happen.

[786] Then, if he did fall asleep, when Roberta started having seizures because she had, as he claimed, OD'd on Coke, that would have woken him up, probably.

[787] But none of that happened.

[788] He was out like a light.

[789] Well, baby, don't wake the baby.

[790] And then when the room's processed by crime scene investigators, they find Coke on the bed linen, including the part that's tucked under the mattress.

[791] What?

[792] Yeah.

[793] So they were just like throwing it in the air.

[794] They're throwing it and snorting in the air because they're super rich.

[795] I don't know.

[796] They're like, it's a raining Coke.

[797] Everybody.

[798] It's truly snowing, finally.

[799] But I think also the tucked under the mattress thing is like they cleaned shit up and, oh, okay, you knew that.

[800] You knew that.

[801] Oh, yeah, but it's more fun to think that.

[802] It's more fun to think people throw cocaine up in the air to do it.

[803] It is.

[804] Now I want to do that really badly.

[805] Confetti.

[806] Yeah, they cut it really big.

[807] Yeah.

[808] Like you're snorting your own ticker tape parade.

[809] Come on.

[810] Okay.

[811] When the cops go to talk to Roberta's mother, Roberta's mother's like, she does not do drugs.

[812] She's never done drugs in her life.

[813] That's not her style.

[814] And the cops are like, mm -hmm.

[815] and but then when they the anonymous female friend that did the coke with them for the first four hours her account of Roberta being groggy and almost falling asleep is not what people act like as you may or may not know when they're on cocaine they stay up and watch QVC that's right and they order and they order and they call again and say how much they like the necklace what are the people that call to say how much they like the necklace what oh yeah Come on.

[816] We've got...

[817] We've got...

[818] Debra on the line.

[819] How are you liking your necklace?

[820] Ladies, I love this necklace.

[821] It goes right on my clavicle, and it is unlike any necklace I've ever bought on television.

[822] Now, did your husband buy it for you?

[823] For your birthday?

[824] No, no, no, no. I'm on so much coke.

[825] I bought it myself.

[826] I bought seven.

[827] And I'm wearing all of them right now.

[828] And I'm licking the phone.

[829] Also, in addition...

[830] so they all of it smells bad to the cops they're like this guy is dirty and we know it smells foul it smells what foul it does the cops are like i smell a duck they're using the i smell a pig joke that's used against them and they're using against somebody else because that's how we make ourselves feel better yeah quack quack m motherfucker did you say quack quack motherfucker But I said it quietly because I wasn't sure because it's so stupid.

[831] That's when you double down and say it loudly.

[832] I could.

[833] I was going, all right.

[834] You'll get there.

[835] I'm going to have you doing like solid stand -up sets by the end of this tour.

[836] Quack, quack, quack.

[837] I just put quack, quack, quack, motherfucker.

[838] Okay.

[839] So they hate him.

[840] They're like, this guy's dirty.

[841] We don't have any evidence to arrest him.

[842] We have to put him under surveillance.

[843] Two days.

[844] after his wife's death, Lowell is seen having a $1 ,000 dinner with two women that he later then has menagerie with.

[845] Two days after the death of his wife?

[846] 48 hours, and he's like, this grief is killing me. I've got to eat, and I got to fuck two women, like, immediately.

[847] Wow.

[848] So then Roberta's autopsy report comes back, and the Wayne County Medical Examiner reports that Roberta did, have cocaine in her system, but the problem was she had 15 times the amount that's typically seen in a cocaine overdose.

[849] Shit.

[850] She had so much coke in her system that half of the drugs hadn't even been broken down yet.

[851] There were also traces of cocaine found inside her vagina, but none on her body externally.

[852] Also, the bed sheets were slightly soiled, but her body was perfectly clean.

[853] A forensic scientist, Dr. Phyllis Good found lipstick and toothmarks on a pillow case.

[854] What does that mean?

[855] What does it mean?

[856] That means someone fucking put a pillow over her face.

[857] Sorry.

[858] Oh my God.

[859] But Roberta wasn't wearing makeup when the cops found her.

[860] And all of this adds up to this idea that her body was washed in between the time that she died.

[861] Please tell me, Bert and Dan didn't fucking help wash her body.

[862] I don't know.

[863] I'm not sure.

[864] Okay.

[865] But these are the theories where it's like there's nothing on her outside.

[866] She's completely very clean.

[867] So the police talk to Roberta's friends and find out that she was afraid of Lowell and she was planning to leave him because she knew he was seeing other women.

[868] But they couldn't figure out a motive because he didn't stand to gain anything financially from her death.

[869] So it wasn't a clear -cut case until they start looking into Lowell.

[870] Amos's past.

[871] Okay.

[872] Right?

[873] It turns out this wasn't the first time Lowell Amos was a widower.

[874] Uh -huh.

[875] Before Roberta, he had been married to a woman named Carolyn Lawrence.

[876] They lived in Middletown in Indiana.

[877] And according to their friends, Lowell and Carolyn, that's right, heads up, middle town.

[878] According to friends, Lowell and Carolyn argued frequently about doing the dishes, about him not being home enough.

[879] No. She was mad at him.

[880] I thought you were telling me that those things and I was like, so the fuck what?

[881] Dishes.

[882] I was doing a call and response and not letting you answer me. About doing the dishes?

[883] No. I didn't know.

[884] Yeah.

[885] I think I was right to skip it.

[886] Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[887] She was mad at her husband because he kept taking out huge life insurance policies on her.

[888] Yeah.

[889] That would piss me on.

[890] I mean, I think I'd get pretty mad about it.

[891] fuck yeah so when he refuses to cancel them she ends up kicking him out yeah get away from me good move um and that was in 1987 poor Vince like we actually can never take a life insurance policy out because I would just freak the fuck out even it's like legitimate you're supposed to do that yeah you have according to your like accountants yep she's like no we can't you'll never do it poor guy no I'm terrified what if I do it I want to say in front of everyone right now if Karen takes a life insurance follows the out on me, it's not my signature.

[892] Okay?

[893] We'll see.

[894] You guys all have to testify at the trial.

[895] It's a pretty easy signature to forge.

[896] You've all seen it.

[897] Okay.

[898] So, Carolyn kicks him out of the house because of the insurance problem, that, you know, that issue that you have with every boyfriend.

[899] So this is 1987.

[900] Lowell goes and moves in with a 76 -year -old mother, Mary Tolls.

[901] A few weeks later, Mary is brought into the emergency room.

[902] there's no diagnosis they send her home three days later she dies so lowell calls caroline and is like my mother died so she comes over to the house his mother's house to go see him and she finds him throwing all of his belongings into a car and when she asks him what he's doing he says i don't want anybody to know that i moved into my mother's house and she's like that's what you're worried about right now that's that was his main concern um see he didn't want to seem like a nerd um so she lets him move back in with her.

[903] I mean.

[904] So because his mother, Mary, was 76 years old, no autopsy is performed on her and the authorities presume that she died of natural causes.

[905] Therefore, Lowell inherits more than a million dollars.

[906] More than a million.

[907] How the fuck?

[908] So, nine months later, Carolyn Amos is found dead in her bathroom.

[909] Lowell's statement to the police is that he had taken her a glass full of wine, um, to the bathroom where she was blow -drying her hair next to a full bathtub of water.

[910] Why would that?

[911] Okay.

[912] I mean.

[913] Go on.

[914] We've all seen the sticker on the blow -dryer over all of our lives.

[915] I feel like all of our lives.

[916] We stared at that sticker.

[917] Yeah.

[918] And we've looked at the sticker and said, who the fuck would blow dry their hair in the bathtub or near a bathtub full of water?

[919] It's stupid.

[920] Well, apparently he's claiming that she did the one thing.

[921] That's like flushing a feminine hygiene product down the toilet.

[922] No one does it anymore.

[923] We've seen the signs.

[924] Oh, God, I love.

[925] Three people in here are like, fuck, wait, what?

[926] You're not supposed to.

[927] I didn't know.

[928] There's a speaker in the bathroom and a girl's like, what?

[929] She starts crying.

[930] Aw.

[931] Okay, so.

[932] So later, Lowell's statement of the police, he finds her dead in the bath.

[933] electricated and no cause of death is ever determined and the wine glass that he claimed to have brought up to her was not in the bathroom it was down in the dishwasher the dishwasher having been run so it was perfectly clean with not a trace of anything on it lowell received eight hundred thousand dollars from her insurance policies holy shit yes so then in an m night chamelon style twist oh my god oh my god even further what it turns out that Carolyn started out as Amos' mistress.

[934] He had been cheating on his first wife, Sondra, with Carolyn.

[935] Holy shit.

[936] But in 1979, Sondra was found dead in her bathroom.

[937] Stop it.

[938] I can't.

[939] There's more papers.

[940] Okay, so they lived in Anderson, Indiana, and a neighbor that's, you're the same lady from before.

[941] fucking cheering for cities.

[942] I don't mean it.

[943] So they had a neighbor when they lived in Anderson named Connie Alexander and she told police that on the night of Sandra's death Sandra was at her house.

[944] They were drinking beer together chatting and Sandra went home around 11 and then a few hours later there's a knock at the door.

[945] I'm scared.

[946] And Connie answers it.

[947] It's Sandra's little children.

[948] Oh no, no. And they say, something's wrong with mommy, and the ambulance is stuck in the snow.

[949] So Connie's husband runs out, helps dig the ambulance out of the snow, and they take Sondra to the hospital, but she dies.

[950] What the fuck?

[951] So when Connie hears that she died or was dead, she goes over to Lowell's house to check in on him, and she finds him burning something in the fireplace.

[952] but she doesn't know what it is.

[953] Lowell's statements of the police at the time was that Sondra had mixed wine with a sedative collapsed and hit her head in the bathroom.

[954] The cause of her death was ruled indeterminate and Amos received a $350 ,000 insurance payout.

[955] Jesus.

[956] And then, almost immediately, same year, he marries Carolyn.

[957] Whoa.

[958] So on November 8, 1996, Lowell Amos was arrested for the murder of Roberta.

[959] Due to a 1994 change in Michigan law, the prosecution was allowed to enter all of these previous facts about his life and his murders.

[960] Yes, so amazing.

[961] And thank God.

[962] So they could introduce all those facts into trial.

[963] Prosecutors also argued that although Lowell lacked a financial motive for killing Roberta, as he had for his other three wives, I mean his two wives and his mother, his fucking own mother.

[964] His marriage was about to end.

[965] Roberta actually had already bought her own house, and she had told family and friends that she wanted Lull out of her life.

[966] And the prosecution theorized that he killed her because he could not stand that rejection.

[967] He was always the one that was making the women go away.

[968] He was always the one that was in charge of that.

[969] And the fact that somebody was leaving him and had already taken off, they theorized that he couldn't handle that.

[970] They said that he first, gave her a glass of wine with two crushed sedatives in it, which is reflective of that woman's story that she seemed groggy.

[971] And then when she passed out, he injected her vagina with the cocaine dissolved in water.

[972] Wow.

[973] And then smothered her with a pillow when she began to convulse.

[974] On October 24, 1996, Lowell Amos was convicted of premeditated murder and murder using a toxic substance on November 4th, 1996, he was sentenced to life in prison without the possibility of parole.

[975] When his sentence was read, he said to the judge who was apparently a little bit young, if you can imagine the fucking brass balls on this guy, he says to the judge, you're a young judge, I hope this is the first time and the last time you have to sentence an innocent man. Oh, what a dick.

[976] But Judge Jeffrey Collins was unmoved, is what this article said.

[977] He described Amos as a dangerous killer without a conscience, and he was quoted as saying, Thank God for the safety of our community, you will be locked up for the rest of your natural days.

[978] No charges were ever brought in the cases of Mary Tolls, Carolyn Lawrence, or Sandra Hurd.

[979] And if you want to see a dramatized version of the story, it just told you, it was the subject of a 2006 lifetime movie called Black Widower.

[980] That's Lowell Amos, everybody.

[981] Wow.

[982] Good job.

[983] If he's talking about insurance, that's a red flag.

[984] Look out.

[985] If he keeps on handing you glasses of wine with white shit in it, that's a red flag.

[986] There's no tune to this song.

[987] I'm just, I'm working, I'm improvving it.

[988] If the mortar and pestle is always in the dishwasher, that's a red flag.

[989] That's a fucking red flag right there.

[990] You know what I'm saying?

[991] If he kills his mother, that's a red flag.

[992] This is true.

[993] This is true.

[994] Hey, it's time for a hometown merge.

[995] In a very special moment, I get a shoes.

[996] Oh, it's so fun to see you all.

[997] So listen.

[998] I get to pick someone.

[999] This doesn't happen a lot.

[1000] This better be good.

[1001] There's a certain kind of way.

[1002] No, sorry, behind it.

[1003] It needs to be concise.

[1004] No, no, no, no. Wait, her, but maybe both of you.

[1005] Yeah, yeah.

[1006] Sorry, yes.

[1007] Did you just pick seven people?

[1008] This way, yeah.

[1009] No, no, wait.

[1010] Oh, no, her.

[1011] I'm sorry.

[1012] Fuck, I'm never doing this again.

[1013] Sorry.

[1014] This is why I don't do this.

[1015] I'm sorry.

[1016] I'm going to hug her after the show.

[1017] Hi, Crystal.

[1018] Hi, Krista.

[1019] Crystal.

[1020] Crystal.

[1021] You have to take sense.

[1022] Come out here.

[1023] Your fabulous pants.

[1024] Crystal, where are you from?

[1025] I'm from Detroit.

[1026] Yeah.

[1027] Show us on the thing where the...

[1028] Just point.

[1029] Wrong hit.

[1030] Wrong hands.

[1031] Yep, that's where Vince always points.

[1032] Right down there.

[1033] Right down there.

[1034] Okay.

[1035] Got it.

[1036] Everyone knows.

[1037] You are here.

[1038] You are here.

[1039] Okay.

[1040] Okay.

[1041] Okay, what's your hometown?

[1042] So this is a family murder.

[1043] Oh, wow.

[1044] It's really fucked up.

[1045] She goes, I know.

[1046] I know.

[1047] Okay.

[1048] So, it's two murders over two years.

[1049] Well, several murders.

[1050] Whatever the case.

[1051] Two or seven?

[1052] Four.

[1053] I thought you said seven.

[1054] So it starts with one year, my cousin, on his birthday.

[1055] He's like an amazing artist.

[1056] Whatever.

[1057] He's celebrating.

[1058] It's amazing.

[1059] And then my cousin, who's a police officer, gets a call like, oh, there's a body in the river.

[1060] And she goes, investigates, they pull the body out, it's my cousin.

[1061] Wait, so the police officer...

[1062] Is my cousin.

[1063] And then had to pull their own cousin.

[1064] And the body is our soul, our cousin.

[1065] Sorry, and your police officer cousin is a woman?

[1066] Yes.

[1067] That's awesome.

[1068] Okay.

[1069] Yes.

[1070] That's just, that's exciting.

[1071] That's exciting.

[1072] Yes, that is exciting.

[1073] But also, this is horrible.

[1074] Okay, go.

[1075] Sorry.

[1076] Yes.

[1077] So, they pull him out.

[1078] They don't know what fucking happened.

[1079] He's dead.

[1080] it's awful.

[1081] His roommate was with him.

[1082] He's like, they're like, what happened?

[1083] He's like, we were drinking.

[1084] And then he's like, I want to hang out by myself.

[1085] So he leaves.

[1086] And then he's dead.

[1087] So we're like, oh, no, no. This seems sketchy.

[1088] Whatever the case.

[1089] My uncle, his dad is like, you know what, it's hard.

[1090] I don't want to fuck with it.

[1091] Just let's move on.

[1092] The next year, my cousin, his brother of the dead person, he's going to come.

[1093] He's going to He's getting his master's degree.

[1094] He's in Atlanta.

[1095] He comes back.

[1096] He's like, this is weird.

[1097] Whatever the case, he does whatever he needs to do.

[1098] He gets a CCW for some random reason.

[1099] What's that?

[1100] A concealed weapons license.

[1101] Oh, okay.

[1102] So now he's like...

[1103] When you say that he says this is weird, like he, his life was weird for him?

[1104] No, he wanted my uncle to investigate more what happened with his brother.

[1105] Okay.

[1106] But my uncle was like, I'm sad.

[1107] My son's dead.

[1108] I don't have to ignore it.

[1109] I just want to move on.

[1110] It's over.

[1111] I don't want to investigate anymore.

[1112] Okay.

[1113] So my cousin's like, whatever.

[1114] So years later, I met this part, not years later, a year later.

[1115] I met a party randomly for someone I don't know.

[1116] That's near the here nor there.

[1117] Was it fun?

[1118] It was funnish.

[1119] It was a surprise party for somebody I didn't know.

[1120] So awkward.

[1121] You're like, surprise I'm here.

[1122] Surprise.

[1123] I don't know.

[1124] It was kind of.

[1125] My friend's like, oh, we're having a party, but only four people are here.

[1126] Can you come?

[1127] Oh, no. It was free drinks and food.

[1128] Oh, and yes.

[1129] I came.

[1130] Okay.

[1131] So anyway.

[1132] Okay.

[1133] So I came.

[1134] It was fun.

[1135] We had drinks.

[1136] And I'm leaving and my aunt calls and she's like, hey, what are you doing?

[1137] And I'm like, I'm driving to a date.

[1138] She's like, well, can you pull over?

[1139] And I'm like, what do you mean?

[1140] She's like, no, seriously, pull over.

[1141] So I pull over.

[1142] Turns out my other cousin, the brother of the person who died the year before, that morning, it's a Sunday.

[1143] It's a Sunday.

[1144] It's.

[1145] It's three days after Thanksgiving.

[1146] He goes to the neighbor's house.

[1147] He's like, knocks on the door.

[1148] The neighbor wife answers.

[1149] She's like, what's going on?

[1150] He's like, hey, turn that music down.

[1151] She's like, we're not playing any music.

[1152] He's like, yes, you are.

[1153] So she's like, no, I'm not.

[1154] She goes to get her husband.

[1155] Her husband comes back.

[1156] My cousin shoots the husband down on the front porch.

[1157] Oh, my God.

[1158] So then he goes back into their house.

[1159] and he shoots my uncle.

[1160] The uncle who didn't want to investigate?

[1161] The uncle who didn't want to investigate.

[1162] His father.

[1163] His father.

[1164] His father kills him.

[1165] So the wife obviously calls a police.

[1166] My cousin goes into the basement.

[1167] They're in a standoff with the police for several hours.

[1168] And then my cousin kills himself.

[1169] Wow.

[1170] It's fucking awful.

[1171] So my aunt's telling me this on the phone while I'm on the way to a date with this dude.

[1172] date canceled no the day wasn't canceled I really needed a drink after that okay that's fair I'm not married I'm divorced okay okay oh my god it was the summer of Stevens not that Stephen I dated an old Stephen a young Steven and then the third Stephen that I was going on the date with I found out that night was fucking married holy thing that's a bad night Jesus, it wasn't Friday the 13th.

[1173] Oh, my God.

[1174] It should have been.

[1175] It was Thanksgiving.

[1176] Is there our investigation into the first cousin, or is it just...

[1177] We never really figured out what happened.

[1178] He just...

[1179] I'm so sorry.

[1180] It was really sad, but...

[1181] I broke up with that, Stephen.

[1182] To make matters worse.

[1183] So that part was good.

[1184] Oh, Crystal.

[1185] I mean, that was very healthy.

[1186] It was.

[1187] And we commend you for that.

[1188] Yeah.

[1189] what's silver lining this shit yeah crystal everyone give crystal oh my god thank you I mean right I'll steal that yeah you don't get to keep that that's not your prize for having a good hometown murder crystal I want to apologize for the fact that I clearly have a pointing issue and just this is how I point in one person and I apologize to the wonderful ladies I clearly pointed at too No, that was a great pick.

[1190] You nailed it.

[1191] You nailed it.

[1192] Great job.

[1193] Oh my God, Detroit.

[1194] We just got to do two amazing shows with you guys.

[1195] Thank you so much.

[1196] Thank you.

[1197] It's ridiculous that we get to do this at all.

[1198] We have the best time.

[1199] It's so fun.

[1200] And it's because you guys support us so much.

[1201] Thank you.

[1202] We really, really love each and every one of you.

[1203] I don't know what the fuck I'm saying.

[1204] Thank you guys for coming.

[1205] Thanks for waiting in that long line, potentially in the rain.

[1206] It was raining for five minutes?

[1207] Thank you guys for coming.

[1208] Again, fucking Mitten Mortarinos.

[1209] You guys are awesome.

[1210] You're amazing.

[1211] Thank you for the flags.

[1212] Stay sexy.

[1213] And stop!