The Daily Presents “Caliphate,” Chapter 5

[0] from the New York Times and the team that brought you the daily.

[1] This is Caliphate.

[2] On July 4th, 2014, Abu Bakr al -Baghdadi, the leader of the Islamic State, arrives in Western Mosul in a convoy of cars in great secrecy.

[3] I remember residents telling me that all of the streets were roped off suddenly.

[4] They didn't know why.

[5] He walks into the historic Al -Norri Mosque, a famous mosque in Western Mosul.

[6] The mosque is full.

[7] because it's Friday and the congregation is waiting for the Friday sermon and then Baghdadi ascends the pedestal to a little podium he approaches the microphone and he declares the caliphate This is what Al -Qaeda This is what Al -Qaeda had planned for for years and had never succeeded in doing.

[8] And waffekhom, and makkenham, to achieve their gaietyam.

[9] In this moment, on this day, Fasarrao illan al -Qaitha and Tansi Bimam.

[10] ISIS did it.

[11] By the way, I forgot to ask you, the day when one Baghdaddy stood at the pulpit at the mosque in Mosul and announced the caliphate, where were you?

[12] I was in Syria that time.

[13] In what city?

[14] I was in Manwidge.

[15] And do you remember that day?

[16] Yes, there was a lot of celebrations that day.

[17] They celebrated.

[18] It was throughout the night, they just would have sweets handed out, food, free food.

[19] Restaurants would be giving up free food.

[20] They'd be hugging each other, you know.

[21] The ISIS fighters themselves would be in the city, gloating about their victories and everything and how they helped create this dream.

[22] Chapter 5.

[23] The Heart.

[24] So, Rufmini, this is the dream.

[25] the arrival at long last of the state.

[26] Right.

[27] I mean, this dream of an Islamic homeland is what is responsible in a way for bringing in people from all across the world.

[28] 40 ,000 ended up flooding through the doors of the caliphate to join ISIS, to join this community, and to help build this Islamic promised land.

[29] Okay, I guess we'll start from here.

[30] These are the Syrian ones.

[31] You took these yourself?

[32] Yeah, this was a...

[33] on the Euphrates, edge of the Euphrates.

[34] Who are those guys?

[35] These guys are all...

[36] You took that picture?

[37] Yeah, fellow fighters.

[38] They're police officers with us.

[39] This guy was from, what's it called?

[40] Finland?

[41] These guys were local Tunisians.

[42] This is where you cliff dive?

[43] That's like the beach edge.

[44] You guys are like swimming around playing on the beach, like on your day off.

[45] Is that with this?

[46] Yeah.

[47] We were just chilling.

[48] This is the one video I have of me. That's you?

[49] Yeah.

[50] What are you doing?

[51] Just firing a gun.

[52] Is that your Glock?

[53] Yeah, that's my personal glove.

[54] Let me see if I can record it.

[55] And I slowed it down to him just for effects.

[56] And who's shooting this video of you shooting a gun to the Euphrates?

[57] Oh, that's a buddy of mine who's videoing me, and then that's me. Oh, my God, what's this?

[58] Oh, they're just, they're not throwing a dead body.

[59] That's a friend, and they're throwing him into the water.

[60] Okay, God.

[61] And this is one of my other pictures that I have to.

[62] That's me. That's you?

[63] And yeah, that's Monib.

[64] Oh, wow.

[65] That's beautiful.

[66] Thank you.

[67] Is he all?

[68] I think he died.

[69] He went to the front lines and I haven't heard from him after that.

[70] I could tell maybe he wasn't going to come back.

[71] He wasn't cut out for that.

[72] I see.

[73] Did you keep in touch with him for a while?

[74] No, no. This is why I kept telling you, like, I missed him so much.

[75] I literally had to cut everything off.

[76] I couldn't even say goodbye.

[77] Yeah.

[78] So at a certain point you decide that you want to quit.

[79] Yeah.

[80] Can you, can you, was there one moment or a series of moments?

[81] The second time I did the kill, I killed someone.

[82] This guy was a drug dealer.

[83] I had to stab him in the heart.

[84] Why did you have to do that?

[85] That's his punishment.

[86] And why were you chosen to do this?

[87] Is, um, I was, I was just about ready to go to Ryathe.

[88] They needed me, they were kind of preparing.

[89] me. So I was due to go into that training a couple weeks from that time.

[90] Yeah.

[91] They just had to vet me one more time.

[92] People were watching?

[93] Yeah, including my superiors and other fighters and locals.

[94] Who else was there watching?

[95] There'd be other Hispas, like, you know, new guys, you know, regular streets people would watch.

[96] A lot of kids watch.

[97] How old was he working?

[98] I think he's...

[99] 30 -something in his 30s.

[100] He was wearing an orange jumpsuit, a light beard, cut face like square.

[101] He was blindfolded.

[102] It was like a black leather, rubbery type blindfold.

[103] We tied his hands with this wire thing.

[104] Did you mask your face?

[105] Yeah, I did.

[106] I had masked my face.

[107] Did it help to have that?

[108] Oh, yeah, yeah.

[109] No one could see your face.

[110] It helped a lot.

[111] they're like you know the guy just like talks to the crowd addresses them what's about to happen and I'm just trying to build up the the courage to do it after that I stabbed him the blood was just it was warm and it sprayed everywhere and the guy cried was crying and screaming he did not die after the first time the second time or so he probably he just flunched over.

[112] That was...

[113] How hard is it to put a knife into somebody?

[114] It's hard.

[115] I had to stab him multiple times.

[116] And then we put him up on a cross and I had to leave the dagger in his heart.

[117] And then there was a sign that said it had a code on it and like 1 -66 drugs and alcohol type of It just, at the time, it just, at the time, it just felt disgusting, but numb at the same time, like gloomy -ish.

[118] I just instantly thought I'm a cycle killer now.

[119] Like, what the hell did I just do?

[120] That night, I just, I couldn't sleep at all.

[121] I stayed up all night.

[122] I got really sick again.

[123] And I just kept thinking of the guy.

[124] I can still feel having my hand on his shoulder.

[125] On his shoulder?

[126] Yeah, I just...

[127] Yeah, holding him.

[128] I was pushing him into the knife, too.

[129] I could still feel that.

[130] I could, you know, stabbing someone in the heart like that, I just kept replaying the action of my hand going there.

[131] I just kept thinking of different things.

[132] There was a rush of thoughts in my head.

[133] I stabbed him.

[134] The blood was just everywhere.

[135] What the hell did I just do?

[136] I'm a cycle killer now.

[137] I didn't give him a chance to repent.

[138] I stabbed him.

[139] If I die after doing something like this, how will I face God?

[140] No, no, no, no. What the hell did I just do?

[141] Then I started thinking of my family, what if they were here?

[142] What if that had to be my dad?

[143] You're basically killing your own parents in a way.

[144] Maybe that jihad that I'm doing right now is the wrong type of jihad.

[145] Maybe, no, this isn't it.

[146] This isn't the right leg for me. During that week, it was just me being depressed.

[147] I only worked for like two days that week.

[148] Did your superiors notice that you're a moot?

[149] They did.

[150] Yeah.

[151] They would talk to me about it.

[152] They'd come and talk.

[153] They'd have like other guys come and talk to me. You know, guys who'd live with me who knew me very well.

[154] Can you just explain as best as you understand it?

[155] Yeah.

[156] What is happening to Husefa?

[157] So he tells us that at this point, he's in his dorm room.

[158] He's moping around, depressed, having a hard time recovering from, what he just did.

[159] And ISIS starts to parade a number of people in front of him.

[160] A commander comes in to tell him to buck up.

[161] And then a bunch of fighters that he knows and that I think he looked up to who had become frontline fighters come to see him.

[162] Like, oh, yeah, it's a good thing you did that.

[163] I wish I was in your position.

[164] You have such an honor to do that.

[165] Everything.

[166] They tried to convince me that what I did was good.

[167] I'd be like, but the way I killed him, stabbing him in the heart, what kind of punishment is that?

[168] I've never heard of it.

[169] You know, they're like, no, for these guys, we have to put laws into our own hand.

[170] These guys have become so far from Islam.

[171] After everything that we have learned about how ISIS operates, namely that we are not the lawgivers.

[172] Allah is the ultimate lawgiver.

[173] Taohido Hakimaya?

[174] Taohita Hakimia, right?

[175] Taohita Hakimia.

[176] So the very concepts that brought him to this place are now being violated.

[177] And the explanations that they're giving him aren't lining up.

[178] It was becoming from increasingly, like, from a savior force coming in and, you know, guiding them, helping them live, putting good standards of life to something that's trying to control them completely and telling them that they're the wrong type of Muslims.

[179] You know, it became from some happy, like, I guess happy place to an all of a sudden dictatorship.

[180] And I've seen this time and again.

[181] That is what I saw with Jesse Morton, who was an Al -Qaeda recruiter, how he pulled himself out.

[182] It's what Muban Sheikh has said was his experience.

[183] He's a Canadian who tried to join the Taliban.

[184] And defector after defector, I have seen this process.

[185] And that is, I think, one of the most important takeaways.

[186] Because if we take the time to listen to these people, what we learn is that it is belief that brought them to this place.

[187] But it is also belief that brings them out.

[188] It is the contradictions, the hypocrisy, and the moments in time.

[189] when the Islamic State does not live up to its theological message that finally propels people like Husefa to leave.

[190] But Muneb, the Australian guy?

[191] So right as he's sitting with these doubts, he says his buddy Muneb walks in.

[192] His name was Muneb.

[193] He was young like me too.

[194] Muneb was in the same training course as him.

[195] I could tell he was not a guy who would tell on you or anything.

[196] He was a really chill guy, and I miss him so much right now.

[197] And he feels comfortable enough to share with him the doubts that he's feeling.

[198] Yeah.

[199] And so what did you tell him?

[200] I tell him all my doubts.

[201] I'm like, you know, I don't feel comfortable with killing any of that.

[202] I tell him about my family history and how I'm not that type of guy.

[203] You know, like if I die after doing something like this, how will I face God, you know?

[204] And it's just making me feel really sick.

[205] And he'd share that.

[206] He'd tell me about himself.

[207] and everything.

[208] He's like how he has his doubts.

[209] He was more of a guy like, yeah, but I really did leave everything behind so I can't go back.

[210] And he was the one who actually gave me the idea that you could possibly go back.

[211] You could run from here and just leave.

[212] So he said, I can't go back because he had problems.

[213] But you realize that your family loves you.

[214] Yeah, that I could go back.

[215] I have somewhere to go back to it.

[216] How common is this, that?

[217] somebody would escape from inside the caliphate?

[218] So it's not common.

[219] Obviously, when you go there, you know, you've left what they call, ooh, let me look this up, one second.

[220] You've left what they call Dar al -Kufr, which means the land of the infidels, and you've gone to Dar al -Islam, which is the land of Islam.

[221] And you're supposed to be shutting one door, right, and not turning around and going back, But people did escape.

[222] We know that, quite literally, thousands have escaped, right?

[223] Thousands of people.

[224] Thousands have escaped.

[225] So as you're hearing him explain his particular escape story.

[226] So I considered walking.

[227] It sounds like other stories I've heard.

[228] But it's a desert.

[229] Right.

[230] I packed up my stuff and...

[231] Getting out of ISIS -controlled territory is not easy.

[232] I had to steal a motorcycle.

[233] And then from there, I just straight hauled it out.

[234] You're trying to get past checkpoints?

[235] I knew which way to take and where.

[236] they'd have their weakest checkpoint.

[237] Without being detected by ISIS.

[238] My heart was pounding at this point.

[239] I was so scared.

[240] Their subterfuge.

[241] They stopped me. There's lying to people.

[242] I told them just patrolling around the city.

[243] Hiding in the bushes.

[244] I'd take off my shirt and just lie flat on the ground.

[245] That kind of thing.

[246] And they're all, pretty much all of them.

[247] They're trying to get to Turkey.

[248] And I got a hold of these eight agencies, right?

[249] Okay.

[250] That's the most logical border to go through because once you're in Turkey...

[251] The girl that I met, she was an American.

[252] You're basically in an extension of Europe.

[253] And she's the one who ultimately took me to Turkish border.

[254] So I went to Istanbul and I finally called my parents and they were libid.

[255] My mom's just like, she just started crying.

[256] She's like, you're alive.

[257] I thought you were dead.

[258] I thought I'd lost my son this and then.

[259] There was just like a bunch of emotions.

[260] It was really emotional.

[261] I even started crying a lot.

[262] But I'm like, Mom, I'm sorry.

[263] I couldn't do this thing where I couldn't take it.

[264] I was wrong.

[265] I should have listened to you and everything.

[266] It's just not right.

[267] I saw it for first hand now.

[268] What's it going to give me?

[269] They're the furthest thing away from Islam.

[270] I'd rather follow what you guys were teaching me and everything.

[271] You know, it was just an hour and a half, two hour call.

[272] And then they're like, okay, so you can't come back to Canada.

[273] You're going to be arrested because you have, you have.

[274] There's no way to explain your disappearance, that I go to Pakistan and stay there.

[275] So I stayed in Istanbul for a bit and finally booked my flight back to Pakistan where my grandparents were already, they were waiting for me. When I've met them, yeah, my grandfather just didn't talk to me at all.

[276] He just ignored the fact that I was right there.

[277] My grandmother was more worried about me and everything.

[278] She was crying and just hugging me. so my parents actually booked me the ticket from here they booked it from a travel agent here and they sent it to me on email did you not worry about what would happen at immigration I was I was but I dressed in a way that didn't make me look suspicious and my beard was in a style not like a full -on beard there's two guards on each side of the gate and then they just like look through your password where you're coming from and that's when I told them okay I came from Pakistan, they're like, oh, okay, how long were you there?

[279] Ten months.

[280] Why were you there for ten months?

[281] I told university and everything.

[282] They're like, okay.

[283] And I said it in a way, I guess, that it didn't make you seem like I was lying.

[284] And I was telling the truth.

[285] I guess it was a sugar -coded version, but I was still telling the truth.

[286] When I got back, I had to face the reprisals for my parents, obviously.

[287] But first told me what happened at the airport.

[288] Ah, yeah.

[289] My mom and my sister picked me up.

[290] and they just, you know, they hugged me and they started crying.

[291] They couldn't believe it.

[292] I was really skinny, like scratches on my face, a lot more scratches on my face.

[293] You know, anytime I'd just drop dead soon, that's what I looked like.

[294] And then we went home.

[295] And my mom, she wouldn't leave my side.

[296] She just, she'd keep me in the kitchen with her while cooking dinner.

[297] And, you know, I'd have to sleep on the ground of their room.

[298] Do you think that they've been able to forgive you?

[299] my mom probably not I don't think my mom can ever forgive me for what I told her about killing and everything I see yeah about what I've done she never expected that yeah that I'd ever do something like that and my dad probably not either I put them through a lot and it's time I make it up to them now and and do you think that there's a chance you could go back to that ideology and to that life of violence no no I cannot at all I can't no I've come too far from it and you know there's too much here that I have to give up now.

[300] Like I've struggled so much to reintegrate myself so there's no point in throwing that out all over again and going back to that ideology something that's not right, it's not right.

[301] Have you thought of turning yourself in as a way to kind of try to just, you know, break with it for good and not and not?

[302] I don't think I could turn myself in.

[303] because I, if turn, I mean, it's scary what they'd do to me. I don't want to be in a prison.

[304] I don't want to be cut off again from the outside world.

[305] Even no matter how much you're against it now, how much you hate it.

[306] You still did what you did.

[307] So it's, I'd have never thought of turning myself in.

[308] I would turn myself in not to the police, but to religious community leaders.

[309] I'd rather turn myself into it and I'd rather turn myself into it.

[310] them what I'd done.

[311] I think we've kept you long enough.

[312] I don't want you to get a trouble with mom.

[313] Yes.

[314] She's definitely going to ask what I was, what I was doing.

[315] For the next few weeks, you'll be here.

[316] You'll be having a good night, relax and everything.

[317] You go you back, right?

[318] That's yours.

[319] Yeah.

[320] Okay.

[321] Okay.

[322] Thank you again.

[323] Thank you.

[324] All right.

[325] For the next few weeks, you'll be hearing Caliphate unfold on the daily every Saturday.

[326] with Chapter 6 coming next Saturday, May 26th.

[327] We're also releasing Caliphate as a standalone series and we're publishing new episodes on Thursday afternoons two days before you'll hear them on the daily.

[328] So if you want to listen early, you can subscribe to the series by searching for Caliphate on Apple Podcasts, Stitcher, or wherever you listen.

[329] And for time subscribers, we're making episodes available a full week early.

[330] So if you're a subscriber, Chapter 6 is available right now at NYTimes .com slash caliphate.

[331] That's NYTimes .com slash C -A -L -I -P -H -A -T -E.

[332] If you've been looking for a reason to subscribe, now might be a good time.