Frank Lampard Finally Speaks Out About What REALLY Happened At Chelsea (E264)

[0] When you get that call, had you known the context, the behind the scenes, that unhealthy culture, honestly, do you think you would have made a different decision?

[1] I think I can say this.

[2] Frank Lampas!

[3] I read that your dad was the biggest influence on your career, and then I read a separate quote saying, sometimes I hated him.

[4] You know, my dad was a tough man. Pushed me very hard on the football front, and it got probably a bit too much.

[5] The fear of failure was a huge driving force.

[6] That made me what I was and gave me the career I got in the end.

[7] Chelsea fans will be listening to this because they want to get your opinion.

[8] on what's just happened.

[9] Because since you've left, we've not really heard from you.

[10] I came back here because this was an opportunity to come to Chelsea, a club close to my heart.

[11] But I could see in training the level wasn't enough.

[12] The size of the squad with players that will test you and question you.

[13] Questioning you.

[14] And then Chelsea spends more money than anyone's ever spent in a window.

[15] It seemed like chaos.

[16] I could see that the players were ready for the season to finish.

[17] But low standards are a symptom of something further upstream that's happened.

[18] You know, we didn't get the results or wanted.

[19] And I know a lot of the reasons why.

[20] Like what?

[21] So, one moment occurred in your life that really tested you at a much deeper level, the passing of your mother.

[22] And while you were playing at the very, very highest level, I was a mummy's boy.

[23] I lost the closest person to me, you know, everything to me, the emotional support.

[24] I want to say something more, you know, I couldn't.

[25] What would you want to say?

[26] Frank is a legend.

[27] There's absolutely no denying that.

[28] But so much has happened in recent times in his life as a man. that unanswered questions remain.

[29] And I wanted to have a conversation with Frank, an honest, open conversation to see if we could get to the bottom of some of those unanswered questions.

[30] What was happening behind the scenes?

[31] How did it actually feel for Frank?

[32] Is anyone to blame?

[33] What does Frank want to do next?

[34] In how and what caused Frank to be the man that he is?

[35] and that's maybe the most fascinating question of all because there's some things that Frank has just never talked about before but he's made the decision to talk about them today and if you have unanswered questions I don't think you will at the end of this episode how are you doing?

[36] Really well, thank you there's always a short and a long answer to that isn't that I was waiting for your second rate for that what's the long version of that no i'm doing really well i'm um i'm currently uh on a break i suppose from working which is a pleasure in ways because i um obviously the work as a the manager uh i was i'm going to say premier league manager but any manager in football is intense um so at the moment i'm on a break is sort of holiday time for me a little bit family time um and probably when i'm out of work i learned this when i left chelsea actually um it was i had a year out after that and i and i really learned to try to improve my appreciation of when you're out of work you're fortunate enough to be able to be out of work wherever that circumstances but try and enjoy your family and be very very present so at the minute i'm pretty present at home which is a good thing hopefully for my children and wife and uh i'm in a pretty good place i remember my my brain would often drift off when i had my time out of work um and i'm I would think about things professionally, so I'd think about things that I could be doing or you'd think back to the past.

[37] When you're having those moments where your kids are running around and you have a moment where your brain drifts off to work, what are the subjects that your brain starts thinking about professionally?

[38] You think a lot in management about people.

[39] So if I reflect on situations like leaving Chelsea or leaving Everton and those things, there are a lot of things that are out of your control.

[40] You get to a point where you kind of can get probably 70 % of them and lock them away and kind of I'm right with that you know results you can't control but 70 % you kind of you're okay with and there's 30 % that you kind of niggles at you that's how I am and a lot of those things and you become manager and maybe sort of like people things I think there's tactics and all these things are huge in a modern game and I'm certainly a coach I'm not a manager but when it comes to managing 25 30 players managing a building because you are the figure head of a building when you're the head coach or manager I think sometimes when you're reflecting you can reflect on things did i have that was that interaction right would i have dealt with that right could i dealt with it differently and hindsight is like the best best thing you know it's so simple to sit there with hindsight and think you know i should have done that so i suppose i have moments where i go over things like that but they're all with a with a yearning to sort of be a bit better or learn that you might have done something wrong or actually you come to a conclusion no i maybe did it right so you know i dip in and out of that stuff um and that probably is you know as i say i wouldn't say i'm the only one but i certainly am someone that is you You know, I can never control one of those moments come.

[41] I can be now pushing the swing, you know, with my head.

[42] And then my mind goes back to something, go things ahead to something.

[43] And, you know, that probably means that I'm absolutely invested in what I do.

[44] Yeah, I can relate to all of that.

[45] I think anybody can.

[46] And I also really like your analogy of once you get to like 70 % peace with something, it's kind of resolved as much as you know.

[47] And then there's other things which feel kind of unresolved, I guess.

[48] Or there's more wisdom to garner from those experiences.

[49] Well, I think if you don't get to peace with the 70%, I think you can get yourself in a bit of a mess.

[50] You know, I think you can go over everything and correct yourself and then what is the answer going forward.

[51] So I think kind of understanding what you are and then go, no, no, that was fine.

[52] Whatever the result, for a win or for a loss.

[53] I've had games as a coach and as a player where we've won a game and I know I've got something wrong in the game but you take the plaud it's afterwards but inside I know I've got it wrong.

[54] I've had games that we've lost and you get criticism from the outside and I know my prep was right, you know, in my head.

[55] So I think those sort of things you can kind of stack up and go, no, well, that's fine.

[56] there's always the 30 % and we'll always strive for it and it might be less i don't know 30 % sounds a big number when i say sometimes it's 10 % to try and make you as good as you can be so i kind of go over that stuff because when you're out of work when you're not working and you don't know in football you don't know what your next gig is you know it's very hard to jump too far into the future because everything looks different there so how can you stack yourself up as good as you can now i want to get into all of that but i i want to take a step back because i think um I feel like there's more I need to understand about who you are as a person and your characters and your character and really the, the foundations you're built upon to understand all of these things, the things we're going to talk about.

[57] So what do I, what do I need to know about Frank Lampard in terms of the influences and the experiences that shaped your character, the character of the man that sat in front of me?

[58] Because, you know, I've spoken to a lot of people about you in preparation of this conversation.

[59] No, no, but they all, they all seem to sing from the exact same hymn sheet.

[60] They all say, everyone says you're just a wonderful man, like a really good, solid gentleman.

[61] And it's, people don't know this, but we weren't meant to have this conversation before.

[62] Yeah.

[63] But you've just been a total class act in even not being able to come last time because of, you know, reasons outside of your control.

[64] The way you conduct yourself, you just conduct yourself as a real gentleman.

[65] And then in terms of your mentality, when I was reading through your early years, it's clear that there was this real obsession to be better.

[66] I mean, Harry Rednapp said, Harry Rednapp said that you were the, the, hardest training, hardest working person he's ever worked with when you're a young man. Tell me, what do I, why is Frank Lampard the way he is?

[67] I grew up in, in Rompford, in Essex.

[68] So I will call it probably a middle class upbringing in terms of my dad had been a professional footballer.

[69] And so I went through a pretty comfortable upbringing where I was down to school every day, aspiring to do pretty well at school, training pretty much every day and playing at the weekends.

[70] So after school, we were going to train Tottenham and Arsenal and West Ham.

[71] At one point, I was trying little three.

[72] You could in those days.

[73] Now it's different.

[74] I was playing cricket.

[75] I was playing for Essex as a child.

[76] So that was on Monday night having nets at Chelmsford.

[77] And then on Sunday, Saturday went to school because I was going to school on Saturday, so I was devastated with it at the time as a real word.

[78] But that was how the school worked.

[79] And on Sundays I played.

[80] So my week was so busy, but it was content, very content.

[81] In terms of a relationship of my family, I had a dad who, was pushed me very hard on the football front very very hard he was quite a hard task master what does that mean in reality um that means that probably when i was probably started kicking the ball when i was like four or maybe it seems like a walk but you know like remembering my early days would be four or five and then so that was me in terms of i loved the football um but probably by the time i was eight or nine i was probably getting like coached or pushed in in what the 15 or 16 year old might be when they're sort of going into an academy at Westam say where I ended up as in work on your weaknesses go over the park you need to have more stamina your left foot's not good enough your agility's not good enough so I was like used to put down the the cushions in the front room and had me doing reaction for a ball against the one reacting jump I'm a kid I loved it don't get me wrong but there were times when I didn't love it and it got probably a bit too much I'm not going to cry about it because it made me what I was and gave me the career I got in the end And then on the other flip of that So I had that pushy kind of thing And so after a game on a Sunday We would lose and I would get He would give me some criticism on the way home And I would be a bit emotional And fortunately for me When I think about sort of Fate and how things work together To maybe get you to where you got You end up being My mother was the flip The emotional support The you know Arm round you The quiet word I was a mummy's boy And that was completely my upbringing And so, as I say, it was pretty comfortable.

[82] And in the end, it led to me leaving school with my GCSEs, getting decent grades, and then going to sign on as a YTS at the time, an apprentice at West Ham.

[83] I read that quote about your father.

[84] I think it was in The Independent, that your dad was the biggest influence on your career.

[85] And then I read a separate quote saying that, I have an awful lot to thank him for, but sometimes I hated him.

[86] Yeah.

[87] I stick by that quite.

[88] I think you'll probably find it a lot in stories similar to mine and in the modern day I think it's changed because I think parents now the thing with my story then in a different era was it felt pretty organic my dad had played he saw probably a bit of talent in me and pushed and drove in an old school way I want you to be a player son and it was like I think he found a new sense of pride in pushing me there now I think some parents get excited about the bright lights that may be and they pushed their children and I think that's another story but I think mine was real you know my dad was a tough man is a tough man and he pushed me and I remember being over a park and it was raining and it was crossing balls for me to head heading's never been a strength of mine then and now so it never throughout my career and I couldn't you know I couldn't connect I was missing them and he was shouting at me and I remember sort of stomping off and being emotional about it and those things stick in my head and again they were the building blocks of myself as a person.

[89] So, you know, this isn't a sub -story.

[90] It's just a reality of what I went through.

[91] As I said, I had a lot of other comfort, so other people don't have it as good.

[92] And it was without that, who knows, in a football sense, if I'd have got to where I got.

[93] And how does that, what relationship does that make you have with your work and progress and self -improvement at that very young age?

[94] Because you sign at West Ham, when you're, what, 14 years oldish?

[95] 15, maybe.

[96] Yeah, 15.

[97] And I mean, as I said, I had read that Harry Rednapp quote that you outworked everybody else.

[98] Yeah.

[99] What is your relationship with your work from that very young age?

[100] Well, I'm sort of really interested in this kind of nature virtues nurture thing.

[101] What was in me already was ingrained in me maybe to be this kind of very work ethicy kind of person.

[102] I think I had, you know, physical capacity.

[103] I was a chubby kid, to be fair.

[104] I was quite chubby.

[105] I do cheeks, curtains.

[106] as you had in those days.

[107] And I remember, like, I know I needed to get fitter and get stronger.

[108] So, and then being pushed by my dad, particularly, and encouraged by my mum, probably gave me this real desire to, and an understanding that if you don't work, you're not going to get there.

[109] And that, you know, that's what I would try and pass on to my children now.

[110] But it really stuck and it became me. So by the time of being, you know, 16, as I remember, it probably been at West Ham, my early years, I'd probably been forced into a bit by my dad but I took it on board so you know I wanted to get faster so he put me in running spikes and I had to run after training go and run over the back and I used to hide my spikes go out the backs I didn't want the other players to see me because I felt embarrassed I'd go in on days off I would practice extra shooting I would do everything I could to to improve and it probably was looking back a desire to be the best and I was never the best I was probably like the second or third best kid in pretty much every team that I played in and whatever I did cricket or football but I had a real desire to and I also had a fear of failure and as much as that doesn't sound like a nice driving force it can be a really strong driving force I think where did that fear of failure come from I don't know I don't know I think it's in my makeup maybe I don't know it's probably just how I am I probably have it still these days I think it can be really positive it was in my footballing career and it carried on throughout probably still in my management career it can probably be the flip of that in my life because if I feel of failing something i won't approach it and i that's me i don't want that you know my wife will always christine jokes with me when we go on holiday and you want a paddle board or something i'm like i'm not going near that because i know i'm going to fall off a lot you know and so she will laugh at me so i'm like you paddleboard i'll lay on the beach or i'll lay on the lilo or something like that i actually used a paddleboard as a lilo that's like that's the joke but in the biggest sense in my life you know that fear of failure is and as it can probably maybe make me uh not try things that i should do but in terms of my footballing career, the fear of failure was a huge driving force.

[111] And I don't think it's a bad thing because I think there's a certain humility to it.

[112] And my mum would certainly have been the driver of me as a young person to stay.

[113] Stay humble, son.

[114] Stay humble.

[115] Never get too higher.

[116] Stay there and you'll be fine in your own head.

[117] So I think I had a real understanding of my weaknesses.

[118] And I thought, well, if I can work on these constantly.

[119] And then I started to see results, really step by step.

[120] Sometimes you go back, you go forward a few.

[121] But I can certainly so looking back at my career from start to finish I didn't leave anything on the table in terms of work ethic and training I don't want to sound like an absolute machine there'll be days when you get older where you come off it a bit or you start to find life affection in different ways but I when I look at my peers in football I certainly had a training ethic that at least right at the top where others can say the same maybe but I felt that I mean that's the Harry Rednapp quote he says that during his career he never met anyone that trained as hard as Frank, he would be out there on a winter's day practicing, shooting for hours, left foot, right foot, et cetera, et cetera.

[122] That fear of failure, though, I can see how it becomes a driving force and makes you stay out there on a winter's day, left foot, right foot, and leaving no stone unturned.

[123] But with all these things, there comes, there comes a more a cost on the other side of the coin, right?

[124] And you, I mean, you talked about the paddleboard thing, which is that like, kind of, if I don't do it, then I won't fail.

[125] But one of the things that I was assuming is it would also make you quite a chronic overthinker.

[126] Yeah.

[127] Because I think people that have that fear of failure, they try and think their way through a situation before it happens.

[128] Yeah.

[129] Typically, what is the cost of having that fear of failure?

[130] Well, the overthinking thing is maybe a cost.

[131] And I think that can be a positive too, but I think it can be quite taxing on yourself, you know, for anyone who thinks like that.

[132] And, you know, sometimes I would, I've tried to make myself, you know, not an overthinker.

[133] However you do that, I don't know, because I've not found a solution to that one because um i think that's when you are that it's in you so um probably the the the negative or downsides have been probably a bit taxing to myself but i think you learn to live with that too and i think you understand it i think it's um something that i'll never master and um it can probably cause you into over -complicating situations like you're saying about i don't want to get into that but if you do get into something and you're really overthinking you have to get into something, I now try and step back and simplify it and say stop overthinking it, simplify it because for me, anything in life, if you can simplify the basics, you probably get quicker to the solution.

[134] So that one's just a struggle that I put up with.

[135] But as I say, I think it's just part of my makeup.

[136] If I wasn't an overthinking, if I didn't have that sort of obsessive, sort of perfectionist training drive, I wouldn't have got to where I got to because I was not Lionel Messi, who has got this God -given talent that's there.

[137] Like wherever my talent was on the spectrum, I needed to push it and I constantly tried to.

[138] How do you enjoy the process if you're overthinking?

[139] I weirdly like, I've really grown to like the stress of what it brings.

[140] And that's, you might start thinking I'm a strange person.

[141] I don't know, but I loved stressful training, you know, to put it on a physical side, for instance.

[142] I loved like that feeling of like almost feeling sick on a preseason run or, you know, really intense training sessions.

[143] I really enjoyed that.

[144] Maybe not always in the moment, but when you get to the end of it, you go, I got through that and that was so intense and hard.

[145] And maybe in life sometimes I set myself challenges and maybe I'll make it more complicated than I should, but I don't mind that stuff.

[146] And that's probably when I started off talking about that relax when you with your children.

[147] I think I'm still juggling that one.

[148] And I think probably a lot of people are.

[149] I don't know.

[150] I think being overthink is not something unique to me. It's completely everywhere.

[151] But I don't know what else to say and that's why I am.

[152] That enjoying the pain, like the preseason run, if you feel sick, then you feel good about yourself.

[153] Yeah.

[154] Why?

[155] I don't know.

[156] I mean, I went to the gym this morning and I really didn't want to go and I bought the dog and the time limits getting shorter.

[157] I'm going to go and I don't want to go, but I'm going to go in because I know the buzz that will get off afterwards.

[158] And that's kind of my drug and it always has been.

[159] And, you know, it probably starts from all those early days of, you know, you must work hard, you must push yourself.

[160] You must be as fit as you can be.

[161] And it probably just stuck.

[162] and it's probably a bit of a lifer for me but I do thankfully I enjoy the stress of hard work and physical but less now I've finished you know now it's more to not get too unhealthy and unfit whereas when I was training and playing even when I finished playing for a couple of years if I went for a 5K I need to beat my 5K PB I have to try and beat it now when I do a 5K I'm just going to complete it you know and I'm completing it in like 20 or 30 seconds less So I've dropped that one slightly And maybe I transfer it into other parts of my life, I guess When you finish your football in Korea You know, there's many options you had Punditry I mean, I'm just talking about the typical path That footballers, sometimes they just go into business Yeah, a few of them go into coaching and stay in football But you made the decision to stay in football Why?

[163] And was there anything else that was tempting you?

[164] Well, I did punditry for a year So I spent a year working mainly on BT And doing some different things, BBC, I did a few bits and I really enjoyed it.

[165] It was great.

[166] I was working a lot with Rhea Ferdinand, Stephen Gerard, Jake Humphrey, who had them recently, and just really good people.

[167] And it was like a step in the game and a step of retired so I can do other stuff.

[168] You know, the life of a pundit is, you know, much easier than the manager.

[169] We all know that.

[170] So I kind of put my eggs in both baskets at that point.

[171] I did that and I did my coaching badges.

[172] And I wanted to kind of see how I felt a little bit.

[173] And I didn't want to be a manager in my 20s.

[174] When I got to my 30s, I was like, that's interesting.

[175] People managers.

[176] What are they dealing with?

[177] I just thought about myself in my 20s more.

[178] And then when I finished, I did my coaching badges, I started to quite like it.

[179] And then I got an offer out of the blue to go and manage Derby, Derby County.

[180] The owner, Mel Morris, kind of went out on a bit of a limb.

[181] He was speaking to Harry Rednapp, who's my uncle.

[182] Harry said, speak to Frank.

[183] We sat for two hours in Chelsea in a hotel, and he offered me the job.

[184] And it was like, Kristen has a sound, and it's like jump and the net will appear.

[185] and we sat in my front room and I was like I'm doing my coaching badges but this is a proper job I go to Derby they've got some problems and it's going to be a difficult job or whatever as all jobs are and I jumped why that inner probably drive that I have in a desire it wasn't something that I am an overthinker so that probably made that process that those couple of days where I had to make a decision really intense but at the same time I like a challenge I love a challenge and as much as I enjoy punditry it was you know it's it's challenging you want to do it well you want to do it like you know the top boys do it you have to put everything into it and do it really well um but i i was when i wanted more i wanted to to get on the grass i wanted to work with players i wanted to try and improve players i wanted to see if i could do it it's probably more if i'm on it's probably can i do it and can i you know do something and i was probably naive at the time because the minute i walked into derby i was like wow this is different you know i've got hold them, I am now holding the meeting rather than one of the 25 players sitting, listening.

[186] And as much as you can think, hey, I'll do that.

[187] The minute you walk in and you see those 25 faces, and then you walk to say, hello to Jeanette, who's your secretary and this one and the player liaison, I'm like, oh shit, have I got to manage all this as well?

[188] And you do, you have to sort of, you know, the building is yours to kind of set the tone.

[189] So that first year, some of it was good.

[190] You know what?

[191] I think sometimes in management, a great manager said to me this.

[192] He said, and he was old.

[193] He was old.

[194] And he said to me, I think I was a better manager when I was young in many, many ways.

[195] He said because as I got older, I started to really sort of overthink things and become a little bit more cynical and, you know, you kind of go over these things.

[196] And when I was young, I just make decisions and I was kind of free to do it.

[197] Now, I think there's a balance to that.

[198] Experience is obviously clear and clearly help as you go along.

[199] You learn from mistakes.

[200] But I understood his point when he said that because I walked into Derby Fresh and I made a lot of mistakes because you always will.

[201] But I also had a freshness and a balance and a feeling.

[202] inside me that was kind of like I want to take this on and even though those moments of fear you know that kind of when you feel like a bit of imposter syndrome should I be doing this and you've got hired it like I remember having the whistle for the first day in front of in the training pitch going I'm going to blow this at the end of training and I've been used to hearing that coach this sounds so stupid I've been used to hearing coaches go end of the session stop I was like what kind of whistle I didn't want to do like a little you know I remember going so let alone like I've got a pick You could see them set the tactics and set the tone.

[203] I was about all those little things.

[204] And I think if they're honest, I think, you know, people in business yourself have all had those, the most simple things where you're sitting there going, wow, that little basic thing that I didn't consider is now in my head.

[205] So I had a lot of those.

[206] And it was, you know, we got to the playoff final.

[207] We got to Wembley.

[208] We lost a final against Haston Villa to get to the Premier League.

[209] And I was so disappointed for the club of Derby and the owner had given me, you know, put everything into me. And we'd had a really good year and got there.

[210] And we lost it.

[211] But in terms of that first year of management, yeah, my drive took me into it.

[212] And it was just a huge learning curve and it was a really enjoyable year.

[213] Imposter syndrome, I mean, that's somewhat linked to, I guess, your fear of failure.

[214] Have you, how does, we talk a lot about imposter syndrome on this podcast.

[215] Because it's a, it's a two, it's a double -sided thing.

[216] On one hand, you have that feeling of, which I can recall when I became a dragon on dragon's den and I'm sat next to Peter Jones and Deborah Meadon.

[217] Peter Jones has been there for 21 seasons since the beginning.

[218] Deborah Medan's been there for 17 and I feel like I've just walked into the TV like your little whistle thing was me like how do I say I'm out exactly yeah but being at peace with that like how have you dealt with that in your career because you went from being a pundit to managing a club that was trying to get promotion to then Chelsea these are huge leaps forward yeah huge leaps forward I think I probably managed to get coping mechanisms along the way that have put that to the side And in simple sense, I've become much more confident in myself, away from work, actually, at home, much more content in myself.

[219] Again, it probably comes back to being really settled in a relationship.

[220] I am 45 now, I just turned.

[221] But in the workplace as well, I've, that first year, I remember filling it a lot.

[222] And when I moved to Chelsea, like, it should be a huge move, it's a huge jump to the Champions League club.

[223] Even though I knew the club very well, it was a huge jump to deal with players of a different stature, etc. But I found that imposterous syndrome thing much less.

[224] And I had just had coping mechanisms where I could kind of just go, okay, you're nervous taking this meeting because you're a bit out of your comfort zone.

[225] You've got to be critical of a player.

[226] So you're going to go in on someone.

[227] You're going to show a video of the game the other day.

[228] And it's like, that's not a comfortable thing to do always.

[229] And I just probably have found mechanisms to be able to go, right, you almost go into the character.

[230] I don't know, I'm going to sound like an actor too much.

[231] But you go, no, I'm just going to go into it.

[232] And the more I think you do that, the better.

[233] you can be at coping with that thing.

[234] And then you just kind of also have to get a realization that, you know, you can feel a bit like that.

[235] You can feel a little bit like, I'm out of my comfort zone.

[236] You can make mistakes.

[237] I think showing that you can make a mistake in front of a group of players is not the worst thing.

[238] You know, they're there to, like the players will get it.

[239] You made the smallest mistake.

[240] One of those 25 at least is going to go, well, that when he said that, you know.

[241] But I think you've got to come to peace with that.

[242] And you can even joke about it after the event because you'll keep making them.

[243] So I'll probably come to terms of being able to deal with that side of it, I think.

[244] I was thinking then as you're speaking actually about my experience being a dragon and one of the things I've always wondered about players when they go from being a player to a manager and especially when they've been managed under a legend of a manager so like I was thinking about Ollie Oli Gona Solshare and Salix Ferguson how hard is it to like be yourself versus be the successful manager that you saw win because even when I became a dragon I think for the first two years for sure I was trying to be a dragon, not being Steve.

[245] Yeah, yeah.

[246] And that's a journey, but do you understand the question I'm asking?

[247] I completely get it.

[248] I get asked it a lot.

[249] And I'm not in exactly the way you get asked, but I get asked it by football journalists and say, so what did you take out of all your managers you play and all this stuff?

[250] And, you know, just to jump to one would be Jose Marino.

[251] It's a good one to jump to because he had a huge effect on my career, as many did.

[252] But he came and probably elevated me in my playing career to a different level.

[253] And what I learned from Jose, and as I then went on to managers after that was the thing that impressed me about Jose there was a real authentic nature to him like when he was self -confident, over -confident kind of brash Jose that's him, you know, that was him and you know, maybe he's playing up a bit now and again but I saw him behind the scenes and then when I've worked with other managers that maybe were probably striving to be something like that and I think after Jose there were a generation of managers that were a bit like, okay, I'm going to wear this, I'm going to wear the scarf and I'm going to tie it, you know, or act a bit kind of, you know, say those things he used to say.

[254] I does say.

[255] And I didn't buy it as such.

[256] And even from outside when you're watching managers, you know, you have that impression.

[257] So I think probably you go, okay, can I take things from all these managers for my journalist question?

[258] Yeah, I did from some and not from others, blah, blah, blah.

[259] But when you come to it, you have to be yourself because you get found out.

[260] And you're probably right in my early days.

[261] I also did that.

[262] I did my first meeting at Derby again was like, right, I'm an ex -player.

[263] So anyone who wants to knock on my door, come and see me and I'll, you know, tell you the truth and we'll have it out or, you know, I'll give you the answer that you want.

[264] And I remember, like, the first three weeks, they kept knocking on the door.

[265] I was like, I had to do another meeting.

[266] So, lads, if you're going to knock on my door, come to me with, like, facts of why you should play.

[267] You know, how's your training?

[268] You know, come with something.

[269] I don't want you just, like, I didn't play on Saturday, Monday morning.

[270] It's like five on the door knocking.

[271] And, you know, open policy in a door is good.

[272] But at the same time, it was like, those are, like, learning curves for me. Like, I probably said that, that phrase because I thought I needed to say it.

[273] Right.

[274] You know what I mean?

[275] Because there's a play.

[276] It's a really cool things.

[277] I want the manager to be able to speak to me all the time.

[278] And when I said it, I was like saying what I thought I should say.

[279] And then, you know, you learn a little lesson.

[280] You know, my door hopefully is still open now.

[281] But at the same time, I was probably playing the part of a manager.

[282] And then you kind of go, what's real to me here?

[283] You know, like, do I have to say that?

[284] Is there another way of saying it or whatever?

[285] And that kind of brings me to a question, which is, wouldn't it therefore have been great for you to go and learn those lessons when the stakes weren't so high?

[286] Because even the stakes are super high at Derby because you're figuring out Frank the manager there Yeah And sometimes you don't want to be at the poker table playing with real money Yeah But that's my life You know, I know what you're saying And I think as a as a I think I can say this I think as an English ex -player Stephen Gerard, others that are played at a high level You know, I played a hundred times Our country, etc. I think the culture in this country is to sort of say, right now you're a manager You're going on your stripes there because being a player of that level doesn't mean you're going to be a manager.

[287] So I think that could have been a route where you can kind of get a lot of play.

[288] A fair play, he went down to Division 2 and he's showing what he's doing and there's a process.

[289] The reality is that path wasn't for me. And Mel Mel Morris asked me to take the derby job.

[290] It was a question.

[291] Yeah, challenge.

[292] Yes, please.

[293] I'll take the challenge.

[294] You know, when I had one year there and Chelsea came to me, it was a difficult time.

[295] I had a transfer ban.

[296] You know, Ed and Hazel was leaving.

[297] It was a real transition.

[298] Young players, what's going to be there next year?

[299] I think probably some big managers have turned it down.

[300] I know that.

[301] So it was like, yeah, you know what?

[302] Challenge, I'll take it.

[303] So, you know, I don't want to try and recreate the past.

[304] I think, why didn't I do that?

[305] Because, you know, I've managed in four years of management.

[306] I've had some experience.

[307] And for all the, you know, you'll always get criticism.

[308] You know, you leave Chelsea, people will criticize you.

[309] You go to Everton, you stay up, you get relegated.

[310] People will criticize you.

[311] But at the same time, I am resilient enough to deal with all that stuff now.

[312] That's been probably the beauty of having a long career in football.

[313] And so my thing is I can manage Derby, I can go and manage Chelsea and do it to a good level as well because I've had successes as well as when it hasn't gone so well.

[314] I mean, that's the modern day manager.

[315] So I think I probably crammed in a lot of work in four years and working at a high -end level with players that will test you and question you because Champions League players question you.

[316] So it's just my path.

[317] The, I mean, that's it.

[318] So Champions League players questioning you.

[319] you don't ever assume that happens.

[320] I mean, I don't know a ton about what goes on in the foot in the room, but...

[321] Yeah, no, I think when I say that, I think in the modern day player, particularly, I think in previous series it probably would have been more vocal and, you know, but now the modern day player, they have a good understanding of the game.

[322] A lot of them have been coached in academies very, very well to a high level.

[323] When they get to the top, they also, when you, you know, setting out tactics, they have questions for you.

[324] And you have to buy into that because, you know, the reality is what you want is them to understand what you want or sometimes they say something you go okay we might change that you know or whatever it might be and i think when you get to the to the top level in football you have to understand that that's there now there's a they have to understand you're the boss and you have to make that very clear um but at the same time there will be lots of players that we challenge you what would you mean by that boss come to you what but what about if that happens you know and you get a lot more of that and you i remember reading pep guadal once said that even if you don't know the answer pretend that you know the answer i was going to say that And, you know, so you, there is a version of that because, you know, when you're getting things thrown at you, sometimes it's like, you know, football is an active game.

[325] And I think sometimes in the modern day we look at, you know, on Monday night football, you see, after the event, you know, they should have done this, or people are imagining what, you know, Pep Guardiola or Juergen Klopp or fantastic coaches are doing.

[326] And it must be this amazing, complicated thing.

[327] For sure, they're amazing coaches.

[328] But it's an active game.

[329] So if you can give a good message, then the rest is down to the players at the same time.

[330] So you just have to prep them as well as you can.

[331] will challenge it.

[332] That got me thinking about when I sat with Jamie Carrago and he was telling me about all the managers he had had above him when he was playing at Liverpool and then hearing from all the United players, Nanny and Ever and Gary and Rio about what Sir Alex was like and then reading through all of the managers that you've worked under.

[333] I mean, there's so many of them from Jose to Angelotti, so many of them.

[334] I mean, there was one period where I mean, the managers were being sacked every six months, it feels like at Chelsea.

[335] and the thing I garnered from all of them is that there is actually not a successful blueprint to being a successful manager there's not like a blueprint there's not a way to be a successful manager some of them are tacticians some of them are man managers is that accurate it's very accurate I agree with that and Chelsea is a bit of a unique example because in my time there they change manager a lot as you say and I don't think that's the most productive way to run a business in an idle way in terms of football because in an ideal way you kind of go with trust in this man Let's work with it.

[336] Here's the idea.

[337] We're going to go with it.

[338] And of course, it's the prerogative of the owners to change that.

[339] What we did have at the time was a fantastic unit within the dressing room of high talent, high personality that led the dressing room.

[340] So we had a great team and a great squad.

[341] And when I say that, we had a spying of players of John Terry, myself, Peter Check, did he a job, or Ashley Cole.

[342] I could go on.

[343] And there were personalities that sometimes would clash, but we knew our place.

[344] We knew we could rely on him.

[345] I knew that I would run for him and he would run for him.

[346] for me and we also had high talent of a player that would did he had droll but would score in every final pretty much so I think we kind of like bridge that gap of changing managers and so I think when you come back to the question of you know great managers I think sometimes it's it's the case of compromising way of what you're working with you have to get the people skills right and that's the first thing I learned as a manager of the difference from playing is that you have to deal with people you've got to try and inspire every player within that group and inspire the collective so every player will have a different motivation it might be money for one it might be i want to be the best striker in the world it might be i want to be in front of him because i don't like him whatever that is you try and tap into and i think the greatest of managers my opinion and i played under as you say a lot and i'm trying to be one is that they give you something that you believe in that you can strive for and you all buy into and it's and it's and sometimes it's a messy process you know you watch man city lift that treble just now and you lift the champion league there will be so many things we don't know behind the scenes this players unhappy, Pep had to do this, all these things that come together and give you that amazing moment.

[347] And I had that as Chelsea's a player.

[348] And so if you to say, go on, tell me what are great managers and me to go, here's an answer for you in one minute.

[349] It's like impossible to say.

[350] Man management, that's what all the United players said about Sir Alex.

[351] It's the only thing that they all are completely agree on.

[352] They would say he was the best man manager.

[353] And an inconsistent leader, which is an interesting concept.

[354] And what I mean by inconsistent leader is he would treat Gary in a different way, to Nanny, to Evra.

[355] And they all told me this stories.

[356] And Rio as well told me about when Sir Alex brought that bottle of whiskey to his ill grandfather's bedside.

[357] And Rio doesn't know how he knew the favorite brand of whiskey and how he knew his granddad was ill. Gary told me he used to tap him on the shoulder and say, think about your grandfather's shrapnel, which is still in his shoulder when you go out there today.

[358] That kind of bespoke, tailored approach to leadership, which seems to be Sir Alex Ferguson's highest accolade.

[359] Sure.

[360] And I think that runs into the modern diet.

[361] that we get very caught up in tactics and rightly so the game's moved on from those days tactically but those people and you'll know yourself you know inspiring people and as you say to be bespoke and kind of individualize it and look within the group and have moments because you know if you ask me about my career you go like frank what do you remember out of those 20 years like would you remember the meeting where Jose you know played you a bit higher up I wouldn't you said do you remember the time that Jose said those words to you that inspired you and it could be like one sentence.

[362] I go, yeah, I remember that.

[363] You know what I mean?

[364] Like things that stick with me that I remember that made me go, I'm going to, I'm going to run for this man. He's going to make me better, you know, and I had that.

[365] And I think so what you just said there about Sir Alex Ferguson, I think the great managers have.

[366] You look at, and they have it in different styles.

[367] Pepe Gadiola, Yogan Klopp, everyone will have a different style of that.

[368] And that's a huge part to their success, I think.

[369] What do you like as a manager?

[370] If you had to do like a self -assessment.

[371] I think you got, you got asked somebody else that.

[372] I don't know.

[373] I know, I know, I try and be, close to the players, as I say, my open door thing.

[374] But at the same time, I think I try and find a balance.

[375] I think the important thing for me was when I became a manager was to not expect anybody, any player, to see it how I saw it, or train how I trained, or whatever, you know, for good or for bad.

[376] And that's, I think, a bit of a skill which Sir Alex probably had perfectly.

[377] So I try and be as close to the players.

[378] I try and learn all the time.

[379] I'm a coach.

[380] I want a coach on the pitch.

[381] I think my biggest pleasure is coaching.

[382] and improving players and particularly young players and I've had the you know the fortune to work with some really good young players at Derby I had Mason Mount Harry Wilson for Cairo Tamori and then at Chelsea obviously Tommy Abraham Extra Ones and Anthony Gordon etc so I think they are the real sponges that are a real pleasure to work with and I love that part of it being able to speak to them and you do find and it's a reality and I remember being an older play you're a bit more cynical when you're younger player they're like a blank canvas and you can you know pushed them and try and pushed them and that so i'm probably quite intense with the younger players um i try and be as i say inclusive and i'm always trying to learn um and and trying just trying to be me it's a hard answer that one i think you'd have to ask you know maybe a member of staff or a player i pick the right player because you probably get different answers because when you work with i worked at chelps recently with 30 players i pick you pick 11 for a game and like eight subs and the subs eight outfield subs the subs don't really like you because they're not starting let alone the other 10 you know so So it's a really hard balance for the modern squad to get that.

[383] But you have to try and make it inclusive because if you're going to get anywhere, you've got to go all together.

[384] And that was one of the problems probably in Chelsea this season, 30 players, it's not possible to manage that.

[385] Well, and maybe this is even more difficult question.

[386] What are you trying to work on then?

[387] What are the areas as a leader, as a manager you're trying to work on?

[388] Because I can think for myself, I can think of a number of areas where I go, do you know what, that is still somewhere where I have a recurring, when I reflect in hindsight, I go, fuck, I need to get better.

[389] what is that for you quite a few things i would say because um the overthinker thing comes in again i'm a bit of a perfectionist so you know i always want to try and improve um you know my tactical and the personal touch and those things but i think when i came away from chelpsi i realized i needed to delegate time better that was something i was certainly not great at i've got you you have your staff for a reason they're there to support you and at times they'll be better than you at certain things so give them it you know and give them that you obviously oversee that thing and I probably spent a lot of time trying to be across everything, whereas really I probably could have come back from that and save my own energy.

[390] So I think I certainly try and improve that side.

[391] I did between Chelsea and Everton for sure to try and save that.

[392] I can be pretty overreactive sometimes if I see things I don't like in terms of, and when I say that, it's always effort or standards.

[393] And I think that's one of the things I'm biggest on, is that if you're going to make a mistake in the game, I've got no problem with that.

[394] if you are going to not run for your team, mate, if you're not going to train through the week with an idea that when I train on Monday, that's got a direct relation to what Saturday's gonna look like.

[395] If that feeling isn't there, then I probably can either get upset with the player or maybe kind of distance the player.

[396] And I think when you're working with a group, you have to be careful at that one because not every player has your mentality.

[397] So you have to either try and bring them up to the party, or if not, then they're gonna have to not be there if you're gonna have success as far as I see it.

[398] And that sounds really harsh, but it's one of those things where you, You go, if you can work in a team and you're going to take it to exactly where you want it to be, out of that squad of 25, if you've got that kind of, I remember, the managers would say this, you could have, you know, there's your six or seven, you know we're going to get every day.

[399] We're going to train, they're going to come in, they're going to be so active every day.

[400] You're going to have the middle group or somewhere in the middle.

[401] You're going to have the ones that may be, I'm just coming to training.

[402] You know, or, you know, I'm a bit sore today.

[403] You know, that sounds simplistic to say it.

[404] But you have to try and work if you want to work in a full direction and go, okay, those six are with me right you try and garner them those are the ones that can kind of pass the message those ones in the middle okay can we keep pushing and working between me and the staff to try and improve them and then the ones that are there come on can we help them can they come with us if not you have to speak to the club and that's where a club has to be aligned to go okay if you want to go in that direction and we're with you okay we'll work that out and that becomes a recruitment or players leaving the club i mean that's you know that's that's that's a reality that has to be and that's the reality of business as well um uh i've just finished in this book in it talks about these three lines and basically says if everybody in think about a person in your team and if everybody in the team represented their cultural values right which is what you're talking about with your six disciples there if everybody represented the cultural values would the bar would the overall bar be raised or lowered and you'll have some people who would imagine if everyone was like them like them like a frank you know a frank lampard or a january how high that the cultural values would be raised and then you have other people where if everyone was like them you'd be relegated yeah and and what to do with those three cohorts of bar raisers maintainers and bar lowerers and that's kind of what i that's a good way of putting it i mean i and i think the i think the bar raises can take some time to raise the bar but the bar lauras can get you very quickly yeah yeah that's kind of my experience because that kind of when that kind of that toxicity or whatever it is you know like this why are we doing this train why do we have to do or whatever, that kind of negativity, which can slip in, can be really contagious.

[405] And in a winning sport, and as much as we're talking here about great managers, winning is everything, you know.

[406] And that's obviously relative to if you're a Man City or in Everton.

[407] Everton will win kind of 35, 40 % of games at best at the moment.

[408] And you know that.

[409] So you know that they're going to be 65 or so percent of weeks, whereas not that great, the bar lowerers can go, and they lower it quickly.

[410] Whereas, you know, if you can get the razors to take control, then I think generally you can kind of get there.

[411] So it's a really important thing.

[412] That's probably one of the interesting things that, as I say, the transition from player to manager trying to get that.

[413] Because whether you were one of the barraises or you're in the middle group or the lower group, when you become a manager, it doesn't matter what you were.

[414] You've got to kind of get that, get the scripts of what it is and kind of just push.

[415] So that's something that I think we're trying to improve on everything all the time.

[416] And coming away sometimes gives you nice time to have perspective and just kind of go, I'm going to put it in line a little bit, and it looks a bit different to what I thought before that experience.

[417] Yeah, this is, I mean, I guess this is why some of the greatest managers of all time, they hold on to their Gary Nevels and their, you know, their disciples.

[418] Yeah.

[419] And I spoke into Gary about this.

[420] Gary said to me, in fact, when we were filming Jagansdown recently, he said for those last two years, Sir Alex kept me there because of my impact on the dressing room.

[421] Yeah.

[422] Not my impact on the pitch, but on the dressing room.

[423] I could keep the standard high.

[424] In the modern world, I was reading the stats, managers are getting fired quicker than ever.

[425] sure and it almost it must be so difficult to establish authority when the player's aware that the manager's going to be the one to be taken out if things don't go well in business it's not like that right as a CEO because I own the company and I am the manager so if there's if there's behavior underneath me that's toxic and contagious I can act yeah the center of authorities with me yeah whereas it seems like in a club the center of authority is really like the chairman and the owner, sometimes the manager manages to get there.

[426] But in the modern world, we don't let managers last long enough to build that authority.

[427] No. And that's the tough world of it is.

[428] And I think, you know, you probably have to earn the right as a manager to get to a club, maybe when you look at the perfect models right at the top.

[429] You know, Manchester City is a good one to talk about.

[430] Now, I work with the City Group.

[431] I had one year playing there.

[432] And I could see when I was there, they hadn't arrived at that point, but I could see with the stability from above and how it run and the vision, it was like, they were going to get somewhere because they had a great structure and it wasn't like it was going to get pulled and pushed and pulled for you know a small period of time as we're going to get there and then they hired pep you know they had a not difficult first year but the first year was kind of him finding his way i need this i need this and then he's fantastic coach and they have great players but if you don't have that aligned thing where as you said the most important person at the club in the modern day in my opinion is the owner and it is the structure at the top because they really they set the tone maybe it's financially maybe it's with the sporting directors and recruitment because you will be as a good as the players you recruit a great manager again I don't want to sit here and drop names it said to me it was when we finished it um my first season at everton we just stayed up skin of our teeth and he was like rang me to say congratulations he went frank don't rest 80 percent of your work for next season will be done in the next month so it was recruitment so like 20 percent will be what you do next year and now the 80 percent is like bringing the right players so i think you know like that that alignment as i keep saying there is something that you know If you can get an owner and there are great owners and there are great sporting directors and recruitment and the manager and the manager is so critical to it.

[433] But when you look at last season, 13 managers left their club, I think it's 13, out of 20 clubs.

[434] And you're talking about, you know, Antonio Conte and you're talking about Thomas Tuchat, you know, managers had huge successes.

[435] It shows you that the landscape's changed to the point where the manager will be culpable.

[436] And I think you have to come, you have to be at peace with that.

[437] But you have to try and get to the point very quickly, where you have success and that's tough because winning is and the modern world of social media and reaction is like get him out you know get the next one in you know sometimes maybe they're right maybe the manager is culpable but other times there are there are many things and to come back to your original point about players and those stalwarts and the Gary Nevels and the James Milner at Liverpool in the last whatever years you know people in the outside I think is very easy to look at the superstars and Mo Salas and that I can guarantee you and I know this first hand from speaking to people people like James Milner and Jordan Henderson have absolutely set the tone of that club for the last whatever years during great success and if you don't have that kind of those drivers within that top six or eight I think it's very hard to sustain success or get success and again back to my Chelsea days we had that naturally and we were actually quite diverse so it was like John Terry was like the real captain like heart on his sleeve you could see it every day I was probably like more quiet but like a trainer and standards and myself and trying to hope that that would bring people with us.

[438] DDA was this sort of charismatic from the Ivory Coast and kind of brought in, you know, that section of the dressing room and he took a pet a check spoke five languages.

[439] Ashley Cole was such a nice lad and this, you know, best left back the country, probably ever seen.

[440] So we had this amazing group.

[441] And like if others aren't going to follow that, then very quickly it was like, you're not going to make it.

[442] Regardless of the manager change, it's like you won't survive the dressing room.

[443] And that's kind of how it was.

[444] It reminded me of a quote that I've said on this podcast before, which is when the culture is strong, the new people become the culture.

[445] And when the culture's weak, the culture becomes the new people.

[446] Right.

[447] Because when you have that core of disciples, someone coming in, they'll stand out so much if they don't fit in with you, Didier, Frank, et cetera, that they'll instantly be expelled.

[448] But when the culture's weak, someone will come in and they'll actually influence the dynamics.

[449] And that's when you're really, from my experience in business, is when you're really, really screwed.

[450] No, that's interesting because I think in football as well, because it's so topical, there's so much conversation around it.

[451] I managed Chelsea for seven weeks, I think I did, and I spoke a lot about standards, and I was saying standards too much.

[452] I saw you say it in every post -match.

[453] Yeah, I know, and it wasn't like, not trying to be clever and go, I'm just going to, this is my line now, standards, but it was like, it was very evident to me when I walked in because, you know, having worked at Chelsea as a coach before and as a player, I do know the standards, I do know that.

[454] And this is not a direct criticism of the players either, because when I look at the player's situations where they were and I understood it had been a long year.

[455] I walked in with 10 games to go.

[456] They've been there for the whole season, and a lot of players were not playing.

[457] They were probably going to leave, which we're seeing now, whether they were going to leave, or the club wanted to them leave or they or they hadn't been playing with the previous managers.

[458] And I could see in training that the level wasn't enough.

[459] It wasn't enough to go and get a result, you know, whoever you might want to say, Brentford at home or, let alone Rio Madrid.

[460] It wasn't enough.

[461] And I can say this now because I said this to the players.

[462] And again, it's not an individual criticism of the players, because I also, when you're trying to say, you want to be a manager, you have to have a personal understanding of like human nature.

[463] If I'm a player that's not been playing for the last seven months and I think I'm leaving in four weeks time, I'm probably gonna struggle to motivate that player.

[464] You know, I'm not, I haven't got a magic wand to motivate that player.

[465] So I think it was that probably my biggest learning out of Chelsea was when you talk about standards and culture, I think people go, he talks about his standards, you know, what he talks about his culture.

[466] And I, you know, maybe I had to catch myself on and not say every interview, but at the same time it was, you don't have a building block of standards, then that winning culture that everyone goes, what's winning culture?

[467] You go, well, let me, I'll try and explain it to you, but it has to start with a basic standard, and which for me is always like trained to a level where you're going to push your team, mate, he's going to push you, and then we're going to be as competitive as it can be.

[468] We don't have to win.

[469] Not every team can win.

[470] You know, this Manchester City pretty much win the league every year at the minute.

[471] So what's success for everybody else?

[472] For Brighton, it's coming six, whatever.

[473] For Newcastle, it's like, wow, Champions League.

[474] That's huge success.

[475] So everyone has a version, but my guess is those teams that have overperformed, outperformed, they've got something there, which is a basic standard that they're just build on.

[476] And, you know, to be fair to Chelsea, they're in a position now where that needs to be worked on again.

[477] It's a transitional time.

[478] That brings me to the quote you said after your Newcastle game, which was the standards collectively have dropped.

[479] I can be honest now, because it's your last game.

[480] I might not see them for some time anymore.

[481] But low standards are a symptom of something further upstream that's happened.

[482] And we saw this at Manchester United.

[483] I'm a big man United fan.

[484] I've seen a decade, five years of just like chaos where we've got these amazing players, but one plus one equals 1 .5.

[485] We call it dis -economies of scale.

[486] In great culture, one plus one equals three, you know, where you can make great average players together play the football of their lives.

[487] The furthest upstream thing, where did the standard start to slip?

[488] What is the thing that happens in a club like Chelsea in your experience when you went back there that had caused that dropping of standards, which we now saw on the pitch with your sort the 10 games there.

[489] Well, I think when I was tongue in cheek, by the way, when I said, I'm not going to see them again because it was a bit like, as I say, I wouldn't say if hadn't said it to them, and I said a few times, but the position of it was that, and I think the biggest thing about the standards thing was the size of the squad.

[490] It was the motivation of players that you're going to not play or you're out of the Champions League squad or these things like, it's like asking, you know, one of you, I don't know, you maybe love doing this.

[491] This is like one of your great moments.

[492] I want to sit and you want to speak to all these fantastic people that you speak to.

[493] Thanks for your prep, Steve.

[494] And now Peter Jones is going to do it.

[495] You know what I mean?

[496] Cheers.

[497] How long are you going to go with that?

[498] And I think in football, that's a challenge with 20 or so players, which is the modern squad.

[499] But with Chelsea, it's got very big to the point where this is how I felt, where I can say, you know, I'm not criticising that player for a dropping standards.

[500] I want to try and get something out of him because I had a short period.

[501] I want to try and get something out of him.

[502] try but then when you actually look at it you kind of go yeah but he's had this for a long time where he's not playing so he's not now being competitive with that player who is playing so that player's pretty comfortable too because he's not pushing him so you kind of get this thing where you're like you know we probably took it for granted in some of my better days at chelso when we were successful of like this kind of thing it works you know it wasn't even a thing you said you know you didn't have to sort of have a meeting every day and go you know one of those standards culture you know nice pie chart and that's what that is it was almost like this is what we do and at the minute sometimes for whatever reason is a transition of maybe new ownership you know not everything was perfect before the new ownership I was there before the new ownership as well like to find consistency as Chelsea would really want of winning Premier League titles and challenging has been a good few years now so I think that getting the squad right being able probably a fresh voice as a manager coming in now who's obviously a fantastic manager with a great record to come in and this is the way and now the squad looks compact you're going to compete with each other and try and create a great environment.

[503] Everyone needs a great environment to have success.

[504] You cannot have a success with that team spirit and togetherness.

[505] So when I got there, I could just see that the spirit and the togetherness was not there.

[506] And it was nothing bad.

[507] You know, like it was not bad to go through the week.

[508] I could just see like you have to train elite to be elite.

[509] You have to.

[510] And that's not, you know, in the modern day players play every few days sometimes.

[511] When I say that, it's not like show me how many sprints you can do every day.

[512] It's like, okay, if we're doing prep tomorrow, give me that intensity of thought about what, what this is for you and let me sit in your face but then at chelsea when you did that you had to go right if i want to really focus on the 10 or 11 for tomorrow that means i've got to have like 18 players over there and you kind of saw the body language as they walked off some of them that they were like again because they've been having it all season some of them so i on a human level i completely understood and in the end it was like i came back here because obviously this was an opportunity to come to my club you know chelsea a club close to my heart but as soon as i got in i I realized that probably I thought, you know what, 30 players, I can motivate in six, seven weeks because it's not like a long -term thing.

[513] I can come in and be fresh.

[514] But in terms of when I came in, I noticed very quickly that some players are probably thinking about the season's going to peter out and what's the future going to look like.

[515] And that was a difficult situation, be fair.

[516] It never crossed my mind that the size of the squad has such a big impact, but it makes perfect sense because you need that sort of healthy competition.

[517] And I believe your first team was, was it 32?

[518] players yeah which is more than you're allowed to register for the premier league or champions league so you had this kind of surplus of a lot of players a few a few are always injured probably you know so that comes down a bit but it's a surplus and it's a surplus of um yeah the the the makeup of the squad is international players generally because if there were a couple of young players but when you try and build a squad it would be like this is you know this is my core kind of 15 or 16 and then you go and maybe these these two experienced players that might need to play really and then we've got these kids that are waiting and they're that just happy to be there, they want to play, they're going to be training.

[519] And if you give them an opportunity, they'll be like.

[520] But when you have like international players in a big number, then of course, you know, you're telling internationals you've got to stay at home.

[521] It's not, it's not easy.

[522] And, you know, to have the conversation every Friday with them and get them lined up coming in is also not easy for your own energy, do you know what I mean?

[523] So I, that's not easy.

[524] I don't care how, what kind of a man manager you are.

[525] Like, it's like, next, you're not playing.

[526] Next, you're not playing.

[527] You know, like, whatever you have.

[528] you try and box that up to a player eventually they'll probably go of i know i'm not playing you know like stop telling me this shit do you know what i mean so i think you know that was an interesting the learning curve for me like an interim job is is what it is and i kept getting asked you know people it was kind of frustrating at the time was like are you finding this so hard and you find this hard i was like you know what i'm back home in the club that i love you know a fantastic training guy i'm doing everything i can in this job to try and improve it but there were i knew behind the scenes there are a lot of things you know myself and my staff we want to improve But we want to coach, you want to, when you lack those basics, and as I say, I think there's an understanding in the club that it has to change now.

[529] I think it has to, it has to change.

[530] Then if you like those basics, then it's really hard to get where you want to get to.

[531] How does that happen, though?

[532] So there's these 32 players.

[533] And then Chelsea spends more money than it.

[534] I think anyone's ever spent in a window in that sort of January window.

[535] You bring in all of these players on these long contracts, which I've never heard before.

[536] I think it was like eight -year contracts.

[537] And they're all like class, amazing individual players.

[538] Is that because the new owner doesn't understand those dynamics of football?

[539] Because that's what it seemed like for me. I thought either this is a genius or an idiot.

[540] Yeah.

[541] You know, I don't want to criticize anyone like on a personal level.

[542] But as a fan looking and I go, signing these players on eight -year contracts, they're great players spending all this money, the impact on culture when you just throw stars in at such quantity.

[543] it looked like inexperience and naivety.

[544] I think that's understood now in terms of what it's meant with those 30 players and I think you've seen that now and already I think, I'm six, seven, eight players have left.

[545] So I think that the intentions are certainly good.

[546] I know that because I work.

[547] The owners gave me an opportunity to go in there and I had a good relationship with them.

[548] Their intentions to do a good job at Chelsea are amazing.

[549] They want to take the club and be the best.

[550] You know, they have great intentions.

[551] So now I think those younger players, now with a new voice, a new manager, the squad come in tight, so I think they'll have a greater chance to show what they've got anyway.

[552] And they're talented players.

[553] And, you know, I remember being in Chelsea when Edin Hazard arrived, the preseason, it was like, is this kid, I was a bit lazy looking, you know, and he was a bit kind of strolling around.

[554] Is this kid definitely, and then that first season, it was like, I know, he's really good.

[555] And then on the second and Thursday, like, no, this kid's one of the best players, the Premier League's scene, whatever.

[556] Tierra Marie, Didio Droop, but, like, you can go through all these.

[557] players who are like absolute legends now if you're asking you know those five six seven players to come in and hit a ground running in a difficult moment for the club it's understandable so i think as a chelsea fan you know you look at it and kind of go right okay that that that is positive there's talent there okay it needs to be worked with now i'm sure that you can see the squads getting trimmed and as i can say hand on the heart the intentions of the owners is absolutely you know they've spent that money because they want to do well now if they're going to address the situation a bit That's their strategy going forward.

[558] But I do think, you know, you'll see players like Enzo Fernandez, Mudrick and these players, Maduiki, young players, they're going to develop and they're going to be big players for the club.

[559] You have to get the structure right and the strategy right going forward.

[560] What's a, my thing is that adding like, I don't know, six or seven of these players all at once, pretty much halfway through the season in a squad that's already struggling to figure out who it is under Graham Potter.

[561] It begs the question.

[562] Like who's doing the recruitment here?

[563] Because at other clubs, it's a much more strategic, it seems like a much more strategic and intentional and football -driven approach to recruitment.

[564] Whereas from what I saw at Chelsea, and I have actually spoken to some people at Chelsea who are involved in recruitment, it seemed like chaos.

[565] Yeah, I mean, I wasn't there for that period.

[566] Right.

[567] So that was in, I got there in April and like, so January was the last window and obviously they spent last summer.

[568] But I think the change of ownership.

[569] and then obviously some people moved on who were in the hierarchy of the club and so there was changes so there was a big change of structure so i think you have to give um some time and some leeway for the process and i and they certainly now are sporting directors and recruitment people in there having worked with them who are very talented very hungry you know good to go and i think now it will be um up to them to take the club forward they haven't signed bad players I think there's maybe the strategy of bringing them all in at that time, you know, looks a bit excitable at the minute as in terms of there's a lot of players for success.

[570] But I think probably there's a long game and I think there's a plan.

[571] And I think probably most huge clubs like Chelsea have had a version of what this period is, Manchester United, you mentioned there, Arsenal for quite a long time, Liverpool for periods, you know, so I think we have to give, definitely, I think to overjudge now when I think they have signed some good players would be to be over -critical.

[572] I think at the moment, I think the proof will be now how these players develop once now it feels a bit more settled going forward.

[573] I think that's all true.

[574] I think what's the optimal way for player recruitment to happen in your opinion?

[575] Because you often hear about these stories of where an owner will take charge of a club and then they'll just decide who they want, which is probably what I'd be like if I was an owner.

[576] I think I would, like football manager, I think I'd just buy who I want to buy, who I think looks good.

[577] Manchester United suffered with that.

[578] It felt like our decisions were commercial decisions as opposed to football.

[579] footballing decisions, then when Eric Tenhuggs come in, it feels a bit more like it's football decisions.

[580] But in your opinion, and then I did speak to some people at Chelsea because I actually went to, I was invited to sit with Richard Arnold and a couple of the Manchester United executives.

[581] And when we played Chelsea at Old Trafford, I was in the director's box.

[582] Okay.

[583] So I sat with the, like, the new sporting director at Chelsea.

[584] Yeah.

[585] And he said there's now two sporting directors, I believe.

[586] Yeah.

[587] So it's interesting to talk to them.

[588] But what is about the optimal way for recruitment to happen, in your opinion?

[589] Well, I think you have to understand what you want the philosophy and the identity of the club to be.

[590] So, for instance, I think Manchester City are quite firm in the idea when they, the Pep Guadio has come in and the sporting directors have worked at Barcelona previously with him, that this is how we want to play.

[591] This is a manager that's going to deliver that style.

[592] So here's how we recruit for that style.

[593] Chelsea's always been a bit different for me the beautiful game the tick attack as you call it Man City has not been Chelsea style it's been more of a winning machine in a different kind of way in my day was more of a powerful team that was probably were good on the eye but we were not that kind of you know past past past we were like powerful and effective so I think you have to understand what you want to be and once you get to that point you probably the first thing is to recruit a coach that works within that and you know that's the kind of coach you want because this is want to be those conversations during an interview process and then once you get to that point i think the recruitment has to be joined up depending on how active the owner wants to be and i i respect and appreciate active owners it's their clubs they're prerogative and then the sporting directors and the manager and then obviously recruitment which brings all the data analysis into the picture and it has to be joined up and you have to be all very confident by the time you want to bring in a player that you're going yeah this is the player we want to bring in there are always one or two or three options because you may not get target number one but I think you have to be able to recruit for the style that you want to be so the coach really has to have a big buy into that as well but you as a coach in the modern day you understand the process I appreciate being aligned and having other people not just responsible for who you're bringing in but also like giving me something that I don't know I'm not there siphon through the data you know they have to show you that data and here's the reasons why the videos people that have watched them and also the personality of the player because not to say you're going to sign, you know, 10 James Milner's because their character is amazing and their professionalism, but you need to know that they're going to come in and the dress room is going to, they're going to be good for the dressing room and they're going to help in terms of how you drive forward in terms of their personality.

[594] One of the key questions I want to answer and I wanted to ask you today is like, how would you have, what would have had to happen to avoid the situation where you had that unhealthy culture at Chelsea behind the scenes?

[595] And those, when you came back in as the interim, what would have what could you have done to avoid that happening say you're in the you know if you could in hindsight have a wand and and correct things that were done i get the first point which was about smaller squad size um what else what else avoids that me from my from my first day in you're you're a um a genie and you can knowing what you know about the what you inherited there what would have had to be done previously to avoid you inheriting that smaller squad is the first thing that I got.

[596] Yeah, a smaller squad.

[597] I mean, some things are just a bit, you know, like there are phases, you know, and I think Chelsea, they won the Champions League.

[598] I left.

[599] They won the Champions League like three or four months after I left.

[600] And at that point, you kind of go, okay, where's the next move?

[601] And you kind of go, how was recruitment then, how, what things worked then?

[602] And maybe some players left during that period.

[603] Maybe in terms of recruitment you wanted to bring in, maybe some people would be like the future in terms of the I when I was at Chelsea before I wanted to bring in Declan Rice I was like this this kid's going to be the the captain of Chelsea for the next you know 10 years it didn't happen but anyway but I think in terms of those things it's hard for me to sit here and kind of dissect you know other people's work in that period in between you know like I would have maybe had an idea it wasn't my idea because I'd already left the club so maybe like when I came in it was it's not it's really hard for me to kind of dissect all those moves You know, I came into what I came into.

[604] So, you know, that's, I think it'd probably be a little bit casual for me to kind of go.

[605] They should have done this.

[606] You know, like, in high, it's a hindsighty one that's.

[607] Yeah, it's kind of me wondering just because I've been a Man United fan and I've seen that happen.

[608] And I saw obviously Sir Alex Ferguson leave.

[609] And then we just had these 10 years of what I describe as like confused chaos.

[610] And I'm trying to figure out almost like how in a Sir Alex Ferguson situation, how he, we could have avoided that if at all possible.

[611] Yeah.

[612] I mean, it's such a big figure.

[613] That's difficult, isn't it?

[614] I agree.

[615] I don't know enough about Manchester.

[616] but I can understand why after Sir Alex leaving and also pivotal players will probably come into the end of their time do at the same time as him leaving to replace that and keep moving forward there might have been mistakes soon it's not my thing but I can understand why it feels like a long period for a club the size of Manchester United but it just shows you that I think that how cutthroat and fast moving this Premier League is because if you come off the gas gas in terms of recruitment or whatever or you have a bad time climbing back up there People think, oh, yeah, you know, Chelsea, you've been in the Champions League again next year.

[617] Or Arsenal, you'll be there.

[618] Like, Arsenal had to work a long time to come back and challenge for the league last year with a lot of work.

[619] And, you know, people were criticising, like, Mikhailo Teter in the beginning.

[620] And now, you know, they've worked together and stuck together and recruited really well.

[621] And now they're ready to go.

[622] So, I mean, it's not, I don't think we should expect, even you being a Manchester United fan or me having a Chelsea head on that next year, it's going to be great.

[623] Like, everyone else is moving forward, too, you know.

[624] when you get that call the interim call you've just left everton yeah um you're out of work um grand pot has been released from his responsibilities what's going through your head when they say we want you to come back in and take an interim manager role if i was a fly on the wall and when that phone call happens um you nearly were yeah we were going to do this so i know yeah yeah I mean I wasn't going to tell the story but no I could tell it for you I was coming to meet you and I rang you to say sorry I'm going to become Chelsea manager that meeting they you know people arrived at my house that afternoon so well just to be clear you didn't tell me that exactly you said I can't come and I can't tell you why then I told you after yeah then you told me after but I'm not an idiot so I kind of inferred maybe but okay so anyway I mean no I think probably that it's normal that I consider everything and you know I probably considered it as in And firstly, it's a club very close to my heart, as I said before.

[625] A challenge of working, and it was like we had two games against Rio Madrid, and we had the seasons to pan out.

[626] It had a difficult running, so I was fully aware of that.

[627] And I don't know, maybe like, you know, I do love a challenge.

[628] If that challenge had been probably any other club other than Chelsea, I probably would have said no. I was very happy to be at home as such in that period.

[629] I wasn't fighting to get a job at that period.

[630] So it was probably a bit of head and heart.

[631] I'm not sure what probably, heart probably was a bit more substantial in this one than the head because I suppose if you look back, again, we're in that hindsight position, but, you know, what were my, what were my positive outcomes, what are my negative ones?

[632] The minute we didn't get through against Rio Madrid, which probably a lot of people would have bet on, you're kind of into that zone of end of season and what are you playing for as a club like Chelsea, and that's not the normal Chelsea, should be playing to something.

[633] And in the end, we played for not so much.

[634] And of course, another reason my motivation come down.

[635] So I probably could have been a bit more ahead of the game in that.

[636] Whether that would have changed my mind, I don't have a regret about doing it.

[637] I went back there.

[638] If people from the outside want to, you know, criticize or have a view on it from the outside for six or seven weeks' work, I've got no problem with that.

[639] I worked at Chelsea before.

[640] I worked at other clubs.

[641] And, you know, it's another experience.

[642] It wasn't my most favorite experience in my footballing career.

[643] I won't lie, but it's an experience.

[644] And I have learned out of it.

[645] Not so much, but I've mentioned a few of the things.

[646] your favorite experience did you enjoy it be honest um i enjoyed the first few weeks i felt like i was back at cobb and i know so many people there i was like into the challenge in the middle bit i probably started to understand more that there's there's a lack of you know what we've spoken about um and then in the last week we had manse city away manchester united away in newcastle at home as i running and i was like okay let's get through this week because I could see that the players were ready for the season to finish.

[647] You know, again, some of it I've got on a human level.

[648] Does that not hurt you to some degree, like, because you love this club so much and you're a winner.

[649] And if you see these players have checked out, you know, it's not just they're checking out on you as a manager, but they're checking out on the club that you love.

[650] Yeah, as a general, as a general, it didn't hurt me because I haven't worked in football for a period and I've been a player a long time.

[651] I've seen a lot of these instances.

[652] and I'm not holding the players to my standard as such and a lot of them I did know the backstory and the side stories I could get that they were moving on so you know if the players moving on they might just not they might not be ready for those last few games they might have a bit of an issue or something and you know but there's no way that you can accept that there's no but but is it well put it this way I don't want to I don't want to come here and shout too much because in a short period it's hard for me to make too many statements what I will say is that I think I understood I understood the role of being interim and I understood that probably there was not much there's certainly not much the game for me saying that was so bad or that was so bad now because when I look back I'll probably just try and take my own thing out of it and I don't want to go there.

[653] I didn't work long enough with the players to be the other one going and I can't believe that happened at the end of the season.

[654] You know, I walked into a position with some of them a bit disenchanted or whatever and I'm not going to tell that that player that you shouldn't feel like this way.

[655] I'll try and drive them and drive them amongst the group, but it's not for me to because a lot of players will sit with a couple of players sat with me and said listen i'm going to be leaving in the summer i'm finding it a bit difficult i'm like i get that i'm not going to change that in four weeks or whatever so no so what was the objective then in the in the four weeks when you're thinking about when you realize that what was the sort of behind the scenes context do your objective shifts and shifts slightly and go okay success here looks now looks like this for me yeah in reality and i didn't get that because it would be results you know because everyone would would judge me on results.

[656] So in terms of me, it would be success here to have got better results in that period of time and come through their working at a high level club again.

[657] You know, it's extreme pressures.

[658] It's the media, it's the players.

[659] It's everything is trying to get results in games.

[660] And in some games we competed against Rio Madrid, we competed against Manchester City, we competed.

[661] But, you know, that wasn't to be.

[662] But that was my version of success.

[663] But, you know, football is not that simple, you know.

[664] So many journalists ask you after if you kind of, like, regret taking the job.

[665] and your answer has always been like, no, because I've learned a lot.

[666] It's your club, it's Chelsea.

[667] However, had you known the context, and this is only something we can know in hindsight, we can't know it in foresight, if there was some magic genie that could have shown you the context, the behind the scenes, the dynamics, the 32 players, the culture, honestly, do you think you would have made a different decision?

[668] Because I think I would have.

[669] Yeah.

[670] But we don't have hindsight, obviously.

[671] It's a magical thing, Matt.

[672] Yeah, but I think probably, And you might think I'm wrong for some of this, but you would probably be taking some emotion out of it from my point and also just how I am about the challenge of going into that.

[673] So if you say, all the context is here, Frank, but you're not going to know what the results are yet.

[674] But here's all the context.

[675] You know, this player is disenchanted.

[676] I kind of knew that.

[677] This is how it's working.

[678] I would be like, okay, this is what I've got to work with.

[679] Can I get results?

[680] And whether I was misguided in my own thoughts, I probably would have gone, yeah, I would do that.

[681] If I've got to be honest, it's too easy for me to say I would.

[682] wouldn't have done it for that.

[683] And nobody gave me that what you said.

[684] I mean, if you had that in an ideal world.

[685] I understand what you're saying.

[686] And again, that's why people might look at it.

[687] I don't, I generally don't have a problem with, you know, someone.

[688] I would possibly have a view from the outside and someone doing what I did.

[689] I don't think it's like changed the world.

[690] I think my, I play for 13 years at Chelsea.

[691] I've coached them before in the Champions League for two years on the truck.

[692] Like, I don't think that whether people want to have a view on me, I don't worry about that.

[693] I went back for that challenge of that period.

[694] And, you know, we didn't get the results or wanted.

[695] I know a lot of the.

[696] I know a lot of reasons why I'll take the responsibility for my reasons why and and that was it you know I don't have a big issue with it it's like because it's Chelsea's so topical you manage Chelsea one of the biggest clubs in the world and it's one of the clubs that takes so much especially in the roman of bramwich is so much interest because there's a turnover you like lose one or two games and it's like oh what's happening here so you know it's I'm big enough and strong enough to handle that stuff so you would have having seen the context you would have backed yourself regardless I don't know regardless that sounds like I'm thinking I'm some superman that turned out not to be superman.

[697] Do you know what I mean?

[698] I don't, I don't, I don't know.

[699] You're asking me, it's so hypothetical.

[700] The season ends eventually.

[701] Relief?

[702] Relieved in any way?

[703] How do you feel in the end?

[704] The last, as I said, the last couple of weeks were quite tough because it was seeing out of season.

[705] That's not, for someone like me and for a club like Chelsea, like it's not a nice place to be.

[706] You know, I want to challenge for things.

[707] And that's not nice.

[708] So relief, probably, yeah, because I knew it would end and it ended and it wasn't that nice a time.

[709] Time to have holidays that I'd planned before, yeah, for sure.

[710] And time to reflect.

[711] And I haven't got a huge amount of reflections on it.

[712] You know, a lot of people have, but I haven't.

[713] I've got more reflections on the year at Everton and 18 months at Chelsea before and Derby.

[714] This period was so abstract in a way for me. That interim role was so different that I can't put it into a context of like, I wish I'd go on a meeting.

[715] On day one, if I'd have done a meeting about culture, I think it would have changed.

[716] Like, I don't know, it wouldn't have changed.

[717] You know, but if my tactics were slightly different in that game, I don't believe it would have changed.

[718] And me overthinker would definitely think that if it was there.

[719] So, you know, I might be right or wrong.

[720] But so I don't, so relief and a feeling of like, I wish that had gone better.

[721] You know, that's human nature.

[722] You know, I wanted it to be better because I'm a Chelsea person, you know.

[723] The Chelsea fans are fantastic with me. In this modern world, I'm not saying flick online, you'll find everyone fantastic.

[724] But in terms of Stanford Bridge, I think there's an understanding at the moment.

[725] The club's not where he wants to be.

[726] And Chelsea fans actually pretty good with that.

[727] There's some other clubs that would be like, we lost at home.

[728] to Brentford 2 -0 and like there'll be some clubs that would be fans that would be a bit more vocal they were actually pretty good i think you know that they're waiting to see something better this year but they've also Chelsea fans watch the team in the second division in the 80s and and seen some struggles over the years you know the older fan and so i do think that the success that they've enjoyed as a club for these 20 years or so there's a real appreciation of it and you know they don't want to go on forever but i do think they understand it's a difficult moment i certainly felt that at Stamford Bridge.

[729] Yeah, they were super, they were chanting your name even at Old Trafford when I was there, even though the score line wasn't great.

[730] And I actually do think that the Chelsea fans have understood that the new ownership, what you said, to their intentions are good.

[731] Yeah.

[732] And I think they can respect.

[733] They've bought really good players.

[734] There's a transitional moment, but I think they will appreciate that.

[735] All of that stuff, all of that noise online, Christine, you, family, you mentioned scrolling online.

[736] How does one keep those two worlds apart so that you can focus on your job without letting the outside world in too much whereas have you got a strategy I don't scroll too much you don't scroll at all very very occasionally do you have the apps the social networking apps and stuff of Instagram right yeah which I'm not very I have an Instagram page but I'm not very active on it's just not really me so I don't really scroll for like nosiness you know what's everyone up to and you know a few friends and stuff or whatever but I don't actively do it because I'll say I don't have the time to do it in terms of myself.

[737] It's just not something like anyone else wants to show themselves, you know, sunbathing or in a gym, that's their prerogative.

[738] I've got no problem with that.

[739] I just, for me, it's just not something I do.

[740] And then too, that's a nice line.

[741] I'm quite a boxer in my life.

[742] When I said that, I mean, I box off things.

[743] And when I want to box off, I don't want to hear that, you know, what some fan and son -and -so is going to say about me here and flick on the comments from a Chelsea post.

[744] I would just flick by that.

[745] I try and stay aware of media because I think I do press conferences every four days you have to understand what the tone is of what maybe people are writing about you or the journalists.

[746] How do you do that?

[747] Have you got like someone that comes and briefs you in the morning?

[748] Yeah.

[749] And they tell you what you need to know.

[750] Okay.

[751] Yes.

[752] And I would tap into it a bit in the week whether I'm flicking on certain websites through the week and I wouldn't obviously go into, as I said, into the story, into the comments.

[753] I would kind of go into the story.

[754] Because you've got to be across things.

[755] I would do that.

[756] think it's very unhealthy to scroll like i found that as a play my playing career missed out the social media came in towards the end and i'm so thankful that we used to just have the newspapers given it's like three out of ten when we played for england and we got knocked out of the world cup and that was hard looking at the paper to see what they gave you and that was the version of that and then the social media so i i don't envy the modern player as a manager i think it's a bit different i'm not in a place where i scroll so i don't envy these younger players men and women now that are coming through and have sort of household names and it's getting so much attention and so much of it's negative.

[757] I think it's incredible that we've got to that stage that there's that amount of hate for, it's so easy to be hateful.

[758] And my, my, my, I would try and say to the young players, don't look at it, but the minute the game finishes, they're flicking and it's, it's difficult.

[759] In your professional career, what has been, what do you kind of count down as the hardest moment in terms of scrutiny?

[760] And your professional.

[761] and like your playing career and your managerial career what is what has been the hardest moment for you playing for England really yeah 2006 the 2006 World Cup I think I had write the record for shots at goal without scoring classic wasn't they disallowed one that should have gone in that was in 2010 okay so 2006 I think I had like 32 shots or something I went in as England player at the year I'd had a good year or two playing for England so I'd got myself in there and was becoming you know you know in a fiction and a team and then I went there having scored some goals in the lead up scoring at Chelsea and just had a tournament wearing it and it wouldn't go in for me and then that played on my mind in games i was like second guessing myself a little bit in the game and probably off the back of that there's a lot of criticism um for myself for some others i remember us chelsea boys getting a lot of criticism for the next six months every away game that we went to it was like you let your country down the song how does that compare to being a manager in terms of criticism i found it harder as a player know whether it's just maturity um because uh as a player i don't know maybe it's in my 20s um i found it harder as a manager i think it's a it's a different version of criticism and um i think as a player you i don't know why i found it harder if i'm a fly on the wall after a bad defeat what do i see you probably see a bit of a of a face you know and and a going over the situation kind of face and it's different I have certain games that they will affect you and it might not be the one you'd expect you know the Manchester United you talked about there we lost 4 -1 was in that one might be different because I kind of know where we're at this season of Petering out you know we play some good stuff whatever and there might be another game that you know we'd really lost and it really affected me because maybe think something I did or should have done or a substitution so on those bad ones you would see the face and you know like I kind of go into my show it's not like I'm soaking in my bedroom I'm a big boy, you know, but you know, maybe have a glass of wine, stew on it, don't get to bed until quite late.

[762] And then you have to go again, you know, like it's a great sort of adage that you can, people go, you learn more from defeat.

[763] You don't feel like that straight away, but you have to be big enough to go over the game again.

[764] What's the strategy now?

[765] What's the solution to that?

[766] What do we do wrong?

[767] And that's what it is.

[768] You can't get too down, but we're all human.

[769] When you were 29 years old, one such moment occurred in your life that really, I think, from your own words tested you at a much deeper level you described yourself as being a zombie for a year after the passing of your mother she died at 58 years old um while you were playing and while you were playing at the very very highest level that for me struck when i was reading through the way you described that moment in your life struck me as a real sort of destabilizing moment in terms of focus and all of those things the question that i um the question that i had is how as a player when you're playing at the highest level and you have something like that happen, how do you show up and maintain those standards and be Frank Lampard?

[770] That's probably what I meant when I said zombie because it became autopilot.

[771] And I think when you talk about mental health, that's the one time that I've been challenged to the extreme with it.

[772] And a lot of people go through this.

[773] And that was the really interesting thing I found because I have some perspective now these years later is that when it happens to you, and it's unexpected.

[774] It's very sudden for me. You've never thought about that kind of thing happening before.

[775] The only thing I'll say is this.

[776] I was a mummy's boy, as I've said before.

[777] So I used to have these weird moments.

[778] I don't know if you had them.

[779] I had them sometimes when I think about death, and I kind of go, oh God, when you die, there's nothing.

[780] And it hits me in the stomach for about four seconds.

[781] I'm driving along.

[782] There's nothing.

[783] There's absolutely nothing.

[784] And then you go, I don't worry, you've got to go to, and life carries on.

[785] And I used to have that with my mum.

[786] I don't know what it was probably reliance I had on her.

[787] She was like, I was so like mommy's boy, you know, growing up.

[788] But I remember as I got a little bit older, like to my teens, and I was like, imagine mom wasn't there for a moment.

[789] And there was a panic for like 10 seconds.

[790] I remember them.

[791] And then because of it was 29, as you say, and it was very sudden.

[792] I was in a hotel that we used to stay at pregame.

[793] We were playing Wigan in the evening at home.

[794] I got a call from my sister telling me that she'd fell ill. And then I was like, I kind of, okay, just going to hospital.

[795] Okay, that's a bit dangerous.

[796] So I went to sleep for me. I didn't sleep, supposedly would sleep.

[797] I was kind of laying there a bit like tossing and I couldn't get off.

[798] I'm angsty.

[799] I got another call.

[800] And as we get on the bus to go to Stanford Bridge, he's like two a mile.

[801] I get the call that, no, no, she's getting much worse.

[802] So I'm like, right, I'm in Frank.

[803] I'm a sportsman, go and do your job mode.

[804] And then I just kind of broke a bit on the coach.

[805] Kind of what I meant, I felt myself go gray.

[806] And someone said to me, I didn't gray, but I felt myself go like, oh, anyway, got to the stadium, said to the manager, manager this is what's happening and he was like go so i was like in my tractsuit drive over to east london mum's in hospital so when i get there mum's now in the verge of going into intensive care so she's got the stuff on and stuff and i walk in i'm in my track suit and my mom had the oxygen mask on and she hadn't been speaking so she's taken really ill in a day and she lifted a mask and said to me what you're doing here so i'm in my chelsea tractsuit and i didn't know what to say because i didn't want to go you know I'm here because this is a really bad situation I mean I'm just here to see you mum you know and then sort of put the mask back on and then she was really and then they kind of wheeled her in she held my hand which I'll never forget and then she went in and was put into intensive care so that was a one week process of my mum in intensive care so she started to get better and then a few of the family would kind of get not excited about it but it was like it's progress you know mom's out she'd been on every machine possible And I'm still having to think about going into work.

[807] I can't remember if I trained in that period.

[808] I can't remember that week.

[809] It's like a blur.

[810] I just remember being at home a lot, you know, really, you know, in a bad way.

[811] And then we had Champions League games coming up against Liverpool.

[812] I played one away.

[813] I came back.

[814] Mum was getting a bit better.

[815] And then we got the phone call that she passed away.

[816] She had a brain hemorrhage.

[817] But just as she was getting better, everyone was excited.

[818] She passed away there and then.

[819] So it was like the biggest devastation I have.

[820] I can't explain, and as I say, years later, I realize that this happens to so many other people.

[821] And when you're a young man who hadn't really lost anyone, you don't have that real feeling of what that is.

[822] And I lost a person that was the closest person to me, you know, everything to me. And I'll never forget the feeling of my stomach.

[823] If I talk about it, I get it instantly again.

[824] And I lost, you know, what was my best friend, the person that had given me all that kind of emotion stuff I'd spoken about, the warmth, and the sudden feeling that someone's not, not going to be with you like it doesn't compare to anything when you're that close um so you know in terms of work after that probably some of it if i look back i probably go maybe i should have just come out of it like life is bigger than that but it was like my probably a tiny coping mechanism for me we played a game against liverpool the second leg and i scored a penalty we won the game now we're getting sent to the championship final and i remember sitting and dressed him afterwards and I had this almighty, like, sense of fatigue and, you know, body and mental fatigue.

[825] And I went home and sort of opened a beer and I couldn't even drink it.

[826] I went to bed.

[827] And it was like, it's like everything came out of me then of like a week or two of full blast of of this pain, you know, it's this complete pain.

[828] And then you lose your best friend and the person that, you know, I've still got a number in my phone and I've still got a couple of voice note things.

[829] We were never a big family for videos and stuff.

[830] And I wish we were.

[831] The only thing I have is my mum's sister is Sandra, Sandra Rednapp, Harry Rednap's wife.

[832] And every time I speak to Sandra, I hear my mum.

[833] They look very similar.

[834] They sound very similar.

[835] And it's like in the first period, it was painful now.

[836] It's kind of nice, you know, because that's a memory for me. But the, you know, it's the feeling of grief, you know, it catches up on me now and again many years later.

[837] I think I probably had a year.

[838] I was single.

[839] I was like, probably drinking a little bit.

[840] I was playing fantastic football.

[841] a really good year of football was weird and then i met christian and thank god christian came along around that time because i was a little bit you know not not right in that period so it was a it was a it was a really um obviously you know anybody who loses someone so close to them but she was so big in my life and was such a balance in my life and then you know that sudden thing is just terrible do did you process that because it sounds like because you had football commitments back to back to back that there wasn't really an opportunity to like sit and yeah i don't know i mean i've been through the experience and um that zombie thing i talk about is like i i couldn't comprehend it i felt empty and weak but i had a a job to do and the job was so second i certainly wasn't trying to be a hero i just didn't know what if i think if i'd have laid around all day i would have really taken more of a hit it was almost like getting up and going to work in that period and having something to aim for was just almost like that's what i should do and then i definitely took the hit later on for that i definitely took a kind of deferred moments of grief and i talk about them like i say there it could be anything that would be um a couple of glasses of wine and something said at a dinner table a moment of someone else and i feel bad about this talking about their mother or something you know and they're talking glowingly about their mother and and you kind of get hit you know um or another parents birthday like crazy things i've got no right to be upset about if you know what i mean but just hits me and you kind of and i that sort of get on with it like hard nose get on with it son kind of feel feel which is stuck with me there was the one time i remember being absolutely broken and tested on that because i had no and i got some anger as well i remember i remember having road rage a couple of times literally the few days after i pulled out in my drive and it was a chelsea game so i wasn't playing it because of what's happened but i was at home I was driving to go and see my sister or something.

[842] Someone sort of drove across me and I got out of the car and I went for them.

[843] And it was a Chelsea fan.

[844] He went, Frank, calm down.

[845] I was like, sorry.

[846] And I had these moments of anger in a period afterwards.

[847] It would just come out of me out of nowhere.

[848] I wouldn't say that they've stuck with me from now, but it definitely changed me as a person.

[849] I don't know how to explain it, but it definitely made me have a different take on things and be a bit more, I don't know if ruthless is the word, but more, you know that thing about kind of like cutting out some people that were in your life that you maybe would have on with, I just kind of took a little bit more of a direct approach in my life after that, amongst some serious moments of grief within it.

[850] You know, it's a tough, the only benefit, it sounds really warped.

[851] I said this to someone the other day.

[852] The only benefit is that now, you know, I don't have to go through that again.

[853] That sounds really strange.

[854] It was such a tough period for me that the only thing now when I see, you know, Christine's family are there and other people around me have friends and family.

[855] and I miss my mum so much, like, every day.

[856] And this time goes by, of course, things balance out.

[857] But I can't envisage ever going through that pain again about what I did because my mum was the only person.

[858] Now Christine is obviously that person in my life and my children, of course.

[859] But in terms of what she meant to me at that time, the only thing is like I can go, that is so painful, I really couldn't go through that again now.

[860] It's a weird way of looking at, and I hope that doesn't sound strange.

[861] It's just processing it was too difficult.

[862] And it's almost like, it was almost, it's like a dream.

[863] My life was never supposed to be like that in my head.

[864] You know, my mom was 58 and I felt like she was quite old.

[865] And now I started doing the math, I'm 44.

[866] You know, and you kind of go, it wasn't old.

[867] You know, like I was 29 and a mom felt a bit older at a point now.

[868] It's like she should be mid -70s now.

[869] And, you know, as I said, the sudden nature of it meant you couldn't speak to her as well, which was like, as I've got older, I've realized that my mom would have known exactly how I felt about her.

[870] But at the time, it was like, I want to say something more you know I couldn't you want to say something more just like thank you do know I mean like thanks to um for being the balance for being the one um who you know in those tough moments when my dad was being harsh or something there for being the one that would when I was crying in the bath after a game and coming and knocking on the door it's like for making me food you know things a great mother does she just was that you know my mom was there to sort of It might be sound old school now, but she was a hairdresser by trade who then became a house wife and a mother.

[871] And, you know, for everything that was gone on in my family life and lots of things have, she was always the one that was like the real stand -up one.

[872] I look back now and I understand it even more that she had the ethics and everything about her.

[873] And then I would love to just be able to say that.

[874] You know, it's like those, you know, an emotional song can get you going?

[875] It's like, can I speak to her one more time to say, here's a monologue for you?

[876] you know like just to to hear it but with time i definitely have got more strength in the fact that she knew that and that's that's it and when everyone i speak to you says that you are that class act you are the you're kind you're empathetic and all of that now i know where that's come that comes no no i don't know listen i i i knew you were going to ask me this because i've seen you you know it wouldn't you know it's part of my story and i didn't want to cry i'm surprised i haven't um but because i've cried probably enough at different times um it's um it's almost something like it is strangely therapeutic to speak about it and this is very public and that's not normally how i am and very private our lives christian are very private it's how we like to live and sometimes when those moments where i say they're really grief -stricken moments over a glass of wine i kind of feel better after them because that's probably what i held in when i was like hitting that penalty and and people giving you huge plot remember when you're that penalty when your mummer just died as if it was like a hero moment it wasn't it was me just kind of going i got to try and do this and and do my job and then these moments now sometimes are quite therapeutic if i'm honest but it's uh you know especially for other people that have gone through that and much worse you know a lot of worse things can happen in different ways but until you feel that loss you know i remember i actually remember thinking when i lost mom it was like a couple of my friends lost their parents when they were younger and i remember then thinking i've never really broached that subject with them you know a couple of my friends are like 14 and lost i met at school like that age who had already lost their parent or were in the process and i never really kind of went and they were like 14 i was 29 and i'd never even not thought about it but you know you kind of go sorry mate and then you move on you go imagine what's you know all the things and i had to process it 29 is slightly different but those things so it you know life kicks you sometimes and that was the biggest kick i think i'll i've had till this point you know and hopefully um for a long time do you talk about your emotions with christine yeah i do i do i think i'm quite good about that she will say to me sometimes i'm quite closed yeah for that stuff and then that kind of kicks me into talking about it because we're really good at that aren't they yeah my girlfriend's really good at that yeah no they're really good and i don't mind she sees me going into the zone kind of thing sometimes and she's like what's bothering you i go oh well it's this you know it's probably something that's irrelevant or something, but is that the first answer you'll give because mine's usually nothing.

[877] Yeah, I'll do that too.

[878] No, I definitely do that too.

[879] It's right.

[880] Because no one opens in the box.

[881] no, it's true.

[882] But it's good.

[883] I think, I definitely want to come across as this, you know, like I said, like this, get on with it thing.

[884] It's certainly not me. I look at myself as being, you know, the balance again of my mother was that one that she gave me that kind of empathy.

[885] I associate all the empathy with my mother that I had because that's how she was always with me. So when I, you know, it's just I also have a mechanism that kind of keeps it there but it's definitely inside and you know maybe children also help with that because when you see your child and their smiles and their sort of innocent nature and how they are i think that also helps you become a little bit more emotional because you start to care about that more than pretty much anything else which is which has also been a beautiful thing what's the future like for you frank what do you think i don't know i'm much i'm very it's hard to know a lot of people can say to me oh you should you know get into punditry it's easy put your feet up do Well, you know, that's, and it's certainly, I get my enjoyment.

[886] I get my, gets my blood flow and is working and being a coach.

[887] So that's what I want to do.

[888] And I'm in no immediate rush to do it.

[889] The reality is off the back of Everton and Chelsea, it's probably time for me to take my time anyway because of what opportunity there might be out there.

[890] There may be no opportunity.

[891] There may be something that comes up that I want to look at and say, does that work for me on all purposes?

[892] Because I get your point with the Chelsea one.

[893] like did you really need to take that and the the jobs i've taken have been quite challenging and a lot are i'm not saying i'm going to be given this like here you go this is going to be great so i would try and try and choose well without sounding too picky because you know i will want to work um and in the meantime do the things that made me happy which is being around my family i like to travel it's like the one thing that i um really like to spend my money on but you know is when i when i travel i want to go better than home and if i don't go better than home i'll i've got a nice house so you know so i we we love that so i'll you know use the time to travel a bit be with the family and my children spend more time my elder daughters are doing a levels in gcccc now and be be around that and that's nice and sometimes you know i think that's good for me because i am so driven it's like i feel like i should work i should work and actually sometimes you're actually in 45 and i've done a right in my life maybe i don't need need to work and that and that's not a bad place to be.

[894] I'm fortunate.

[895] I don't, I have gratitude for that.

[896] So at the moment, it's the gratitude of that, enjoy it, and then try and work again.

[897] And what will be, what would be your sort of decision -making framework when people call and they say, what about this job or what about this?

[898] What's the, how would you decide whether it's worth taking the, well, it's hard to say, but from my experience, I would want to make sure, I would want to have conversations to find out what the job is.

[899] And I can't, I can't sit here, feel this way and talk to you about being aligned and they need to feel the way that I'll be the coach and they're going to do this and work together and probably take another job where it doesn't feel aligned you know I shouldn't do that so I'd want to have a conversation and be like what what can I do for you I have to sell myself clearly that's the point but what can how will it work together and maybe get something that feels a bit like and I don't mind all work you know in the UK anywhere I would travel if an opportunity came up I would certainly prioritise a bit of family to make sure that it's something that works for my family.

[900] Ideally, so I don't know.

[901] I don't know about that one.

[902] Everyone seems to be going there.

[903] They do.

[904] They do.

[905] I mean, I would prefer to stay in the UK for sure.

[906] And I don't mind.

[907] I went and lived in Everton for a year, lives in Derby for a year.

[908] I miss my family a lot, but you have to, you know, make those big decisions.

[909] We're fortunate in ways.

[910] But we'll, I'll see.

[911] I'll see what comes up.

[912] It's hard to call before it comes.

[913] If we sit here in 10 years time in this chapter, this next sort of 10 years, this next decade has been a success what does that look like what would have had to have happened for it to have been a success this next decade well 55 year old frank and me 55 well i'm here so that's good at 55 i think my you know obviously the family to be well and healthy you understand that more when you hit for me it was hitting probably faulty health and understanding and maybe you check yourself more on those things and lifestyle and then um to be hopefully have managed and had success coaching you know that's that's what I want to do.

[914] I can't see what it looks like, but I would love to be able to show myself consistently in a job and what I can do.

[915] I haven't had that opportunity yet for whether that was me or whatever the circumstance of been to do that.

[916] So I'm very determined to do it.

[917] I'm good like that.

[918] I'm determined and I'll like to work.

[919] Like anyone who knows me will know that.

[920] Regardless of what my career has been, if you put it in front of me, I'll tackle it head on.

[921] And then, you know, I'm always trying to improve.

[922] So hopefully in 10 years, I can show you that.

[923] there's got to be a part of you that wants to go back to Chelsea someday knowing if I know you hard the way I know you there's got to be a part of you inside you that's like you know one day I'll I'll go back it's funny you know like you talk about should you have taken that job I reckon if you'd have asked me that before going back I might have said no as in not like I don't want to go back to Chelsea but I would have certainly seen myself no no like that's chapters done as a coach but now I've been back I would think about it even more and it's strange and I and I I think, you know, the fact that the ownership has changed at Chelsea and it's going in a different direction.

[924] I think it can be a really positive thing for the club.

[925] I think people might not see that now, but I think it really can.

[926] But obviously, I have a lot to do to be part of that ever.

[927] But like, I don't, you have to make a clear decision.

[928] When we, I play 13 years of Chelsea, I said I'm never playing anywhere else.

[929] I end up playing at Man City.

[930] Some people criticise me for that.

[931] It's fine.

[932] I didn't expect it, but Man City was an amazing experience.

[933] I went to New York City.

[934] It was an amazing experience.

[935] When you become a manager, you can't say, I'm going to be Chelsea.

[936] Chelsea manager, I'm going to be this.

[937] You have to take the journey because those are the rules for all of us.

[938] You know, you can be, you know, a success for a moment at Everton.

[939] Everyone goes, well, then you stay up and then you're next job.

[940] What is it?

[941] And I would, you know, I've respect for so many big clubs that, you know, there are certain clubs I wouldn't manage.

[942] I'm not going to declare them because that just sounds like cheap.

[943] But I think it's important.

[944] I respect my time that Chelsea's a player and what the club means to me. But I don't see it as the be on end.

[945] But, as I say, having been back there, it did re -light a fire.

[946] I left Chelsea in COVID as a manager.

[947] I didn't have any fans my last period.

[948] So I kind of walked out like a little bit through the back door in a sense.

[949] And this time it felt different.

[950] And that wasn't a great period.

[951] But it is still a huge club for me. So maybe.

[952] I'm really excited to watch what happens next.

[953] Thank you.

[954] You did a great job at Derby.

[955] Obviously, then you got Chelsea into the Champions League, I think finished fourth that season under a transfer ban.

[956] And then you kept Everton up on the last day of the season, which again, most people had kind of counted Everton out.

[957] So obviously there was that interim period.

[958] I look, it's funny, because I'm going to be honest.

[959] So I, when we were made to have this podcast last time, then you called me and said, listen, I can't come, can't tell you why.

[960] And I kind of put two and two together and figured it was the job.

[961] I looked at that and thought, I don't know, at Chelsea 11th or 12th at the moment, like what's the worst that can happen, really?

[962] What I didn't know is the back context.

[963] So if I was in your shoes, in hindsight, And we don't have hindsight in the moment.

[964] I would have probably, I would have not taken the job if I was in that situation.

[965] But in foresight, I definitely would have.

[966] 100%.

[967] For all the reasons you said, if Manchester United called me now, I'll take the job.

[968] Yeah.

[969] And I have no experience.

[970] So, but I think what we're going to, I'm really excited to see what we see next from you and your sort of managerial career because, I mean, the experience you've had, warts and all, is worth a ton.

[971] Yeah.

[972] You know, at all different levels, all different phases, transitional, relegation battles, that is worth more than a lot of successes are worth.

[973] And you've had that in a short window of time.

[974] So really, really excited about your next chapter, whenever it comes.

[975] Thank you.

[976] Is there anything at all you would say to Chelsea fans that are watching this now that are, that would love to, you know, Chelsea fans will be listening to this because they want to get a, your opinion on what's just happened, but they probably want to get your opinion on like what you think the future looks like, I guess.

[977] And also, I think a lot of them do you want to like check in on you?

[978] Because since you've left, we've not really heard from you in such context.

[979] Yeah, and I've enjoyed that.

[980] I've enjoyed not speaking.

[981] It's been nice.

[982] No, I think for Chelsea fans, I would say that in terms of what do I think is next, I listened to Poshasino spoke yesterday.

[983] It was his first press conference.

[984] And he spoke very well.

[985] And he spoke about bringing a unity at the training ground and a family fill and then winning, which is Chelsea DNA.

[986] So I think they've got a really good manager in charge.

[987] And I think the players will definitely develop with their, you know, as they develop naturally, they're good players, young players.

[988] There has to be some patience in putting that together because I think that has to be clear.

[989] And the owners have a big intention.

[990] So I think as things settle, it may not be straight away, but I think that there's a really positive future for the club.

[991] And I was in it and it was tough, but I know how quickly things can change if you get the strategy right.

[992] In terms of me, I'm absolutely fine.

[993] And I'd certainly appreciate the support I had from, as I said, majority, a lot of fans that would, you know, contact me or be at Stamford Bridge.

[994] And for anybody that was on the other side of that, was like, why is Frank back in the job?

[995] I think they, maybe I've explained some of my part in it today and some of the challenges.

[996] I'll always take responsibility.

[997] I wouldn't walk back into that challenge without sort of saying, this might not go, right, and what's my responsibility?

[998] So, but Chelsea's always a huge club.

[999] And as I say, I never went back to Chelsea until three days before I went and took the interim job manager.

[1000] and I went to Liverpool game and ended up having a conversation.

[1001] And it was a difficult period for me for some reason.

[1002] I left in COVID, as I say, and I moved on to Everton.

[1003] And it reignited that kind of feeling being back at Stamford Bridge.

[1004] I have to say, not that I lost it.

[1005] It just reignited it.

[1006] And, you know, so to Chelsea fans, I know, I'm fine.

[1007] I'm fine.

[1008] I appreciate their support, even my playing career.

[1009] It's nice when you finish playing because your playing career is there.

[1010] And I can look back on it with a lot of pleasure for a lot of the good moments.

[1011] when you're in it it's like what's next and you're sort of like always challenging yourself when you finish you kind of go yeah you know that was good that was all right there's a lot of good stuff so there were good times and I was very thankful to be part of a of a great club and we'll see you gave mason mount his start yes I think he's a great signing for your yeah that's what's I was going to say thank you for that he's fantastic why is he why is he leaving Chelsea he's born and born and bread isn't he yeah I think it's a complicated one and in the end I think it's he's got a year left on his contract what I'll say about Mason is all the things I spoke about there you talk about like modern players and how the game's changed he's a throwback to the attitude and the commitment and the quality that was the beauty of working with Mason was that he gave you so much in terms of his effort every day anything you'd ask him to do it was like yeah and he kind of got it and I think any great player has to have that kind of intelligence and that desire about them you know like what do you need me to do i've got it and i'll do it i'll repeat it and also quality so in terms of what he'll bring to manchester united it won't just be what mason brings he will bring loads of talent but he's just going to go and levels around him yeah i i think so and and don't let me wrong there barraises already there with bruno fanandez rassum but he will absolutely fit in with it if you're trying to build which you're saying you a group mentality of a team and you know players are just going to give everything and have talent which top team needs he fits it so i've seen some like sort of alternative reaction to that it's like oh yeah mason mount's a good boy i'm why would you pay that for him mason mount is going to be a fantastic player there my opinion it's really nice to know because actually i was a bit on the fence in regards of don't really know the character of the man but i have heard from inside altrafford that eric tenhard eric tenhaug is really ultra focused on exactly what you've said above everything else he's focused on that like core values so casimirro um bruno etc etc and so it's nice to know that Mason is a yeah he is a barraiser yeah why is he leaving do you know um seeking a different challenge or is it no I don't think so I think probably Mason would have envisaged two years ago that he'd stay at Chelsea for a lot of his career I just think circumstances his contract situation um I know he's got a big love for Chelsea um also in the modern day you know I think more than more than even in my day players do move and I don't think you know for the challenge of moving now it's come to that for Mason personally is a good challenge for him.

[1012] I would have liked to send him to start at Chelsea because I think he would have been central to it but it didn't happen.

[1013] We have a closing tradition on this podcast where the last guest leaves a question for the next guest and I have to say this is the longest question that has ever been left for anyone else.

[1014] It's quite abstract as well so we're both going to have to kind of figure this one out but the question is you're going to be surprised by this.

[1015] When broken down to its roots or origin the word enthusiasm begins with N Theos, which means with God, for people who have not identified something which they are truly passionate about pursuing, can you suggest a way to cultivate that enthusiasm?

[1016] That is a bizarre to make.

[1017] So I think the real question here is just in this line here, which is for people who haven't identified something which they are truly passionate about pursuing, how do they go about that?

[1018] Wow.

[1019] Thanks for that one.

[1020] Yeah.

[1021] That's a stitch episode.

[1022] I don't know.

[1023] This is a good point, actually, because my daughter's now, my oldest daughter is getting her A -level results this summer.

[1024] It's talking about uni, but she doesn't really know what she wants to do.

[1025] And I actually felt not bad.

[1026] I went to school, obviously, but my pathway, looking back, was like, fortunately, it was that.

[1027] I didn't have to think about much else.

[1028] And so I haven't got any big answers for it.

[1029] And also, like, from a modern woman, you know, where is the path?

[1030] What does she want to do?

[1031] I ask that question if she's not sure.

[1032] which is completely understandable.

[1033] So for me, I think for her, if you're flipping it there, maybe whether it's a passion or not, but my thing, and it probably goes back to my roots, is to the work ethic thing is what I say to it, is to get out there and get in the workplace and meet people.

[1034] Because I think in the modern world with my daughters are so engrossed in social media, they have a lot of answers about life, you know, a lot of answers.

[1035] And I'm like, okay, I don't agree with that one, but I'll let that one go.

[1036] agree with that and then I start to feel like a dinosaur but I do think that they kind of get caught up in that and all the answers are there and I go okay we're going to do then and they go I don't know and you kind of go okay well fine you've got all this information is the modern world but what are you going to do go out and get a weekend job if you're going to go out and to experience what the real world is like rather than this alternative world that you're slightly looking at and then I think something might ignite it so that was my and again that's probably as deep as I could go because I don't care where it is you could be in the coffee shops you could be in this shop or that shop or whatever but um this is my daughter's story obviously so it was more about getting out and meeting people and i guess probably and and to bring that question back to me myself going out of my comfort zone and leaving chelsea to go to manchester city and then live in new york for two years ignited a million things in me and none of them were like big hobbies or something like it was just like wow there's a different world a different culture people who approach things with positivity and energy that i've never seen in england And it changed my approach.

[1037] So maybe my answer would be come out of your comfort zone and do something which is different.

[1038] I was fortunate to do it.

[1039] I worked there.

[1040] But I was living in probably what for me is possibly the best city in the world.

[1041] And it changed me as a person.

[1042] So maybe to get the passion, try something, take yourself out of the comfort zone.

[1043] And it might just appear for you.

[1044] Makes perfect sense.

[1045] And I think, yeah, exactly what I heard there is that often we, when we're too within familiarity, we're not going to get the inspiration of what might be our passion if we're searching for it.

[1046] but going to a New York or just getting out into the world and having experiences can lead us there.

[1047] Frank, thank you so much for your time today.

[1048] And thank you for doing this.

[1049] Because I want to say, like, you are a man of your word.

[1050] Because we were going to do this last time.

[1051] And you could have easily not done it.

[1052] But you messaged me and said, I want to get that back on because I said I would.

[1053] And again, that's just another example of you just being a class act.

[1054] The whole process of you can canceling last time because you got the Chelsea job and then coming back.

[1055] You've just been an absolute class act.

[1056] Thank you.

[1057] You're a man where no one can question your integrity and your principles.

[1058] And then on top of that, I see a man who is incredibly keen to work and do well in whatever he applies himself to.

[1059] And because of that, you've led this fantastic career, both as a professional football player and as a manager, which is, I think, you're just halfway through.

[1060] And there's this whole new season as you get up to, you know, 45 years time, you're going to be 90.

[1061] And I'm so excited to watch that story unfold because of all the wisdom you've garnered in the last 45.

[1062] So thank you for being an inspiration to me, for giving me so many great memories in football as an England player less so as a Chelsea player because you guys were really fucking good through that period but it's a real honour to get to know you and thank you for all your wisdom thank you very much thank you thank you