The Diary Of A CEO with Steven Bartlett XX
[0] I think it's actually still kind of hard for me to talk about.
[1] But I am down to go there.
[2] Your square chin makes me feel safe.
[3] Jonathan Van Ness!
[4] Woo!
[5] Comedian and beauty stylist, you know from queer eyes.
[6] With our nation, honey!
[7] The conversation starts on a cornfield and rural Illinois.
[8] Being a queer, feminine child is hard.
[9] There was sexual abuse and there was bullying, but all that trauma came back in the most self -destructive era.
[10] I had my face in a plate of Coke.
[11] Then I discovered sex work.
[12] I got HIV.
[13] I put myself in so many really dangerous situations.
[14] Someone pulled a gun on you.
[15] Uh -huh.
[16] Take me into that moment.
[17] We start out hairdresser, and now your name is on the marquee of Radio City.
[18] Schedule's been crazy.
[19] How are you feeling?
[20] Grateful, and at the same time, really frustrated.
[21] I just see so much transphobic garbage all over the place.
[22] People really think that there's little kids going to school as a boy and coming home as a girl.
[23] This is really serious, and so this has been a really hard time.
[24] And I think being a public figure who is constantly expected to be a ray of from sunshine, it can be challenging.
[25] But why I've been able to get to where I am is like, because I think I'm resilient.
[26] I have been able to sit with a lot of shame and like a lot of heartbreak and still be joyful.
[27] Can you talk about your trauma without becoming your trauma?
[28] Do I get to ask the question of the next person?
[29] Yes, and also they'll be turned into cards that people will play with their families and stuff.
[30] Oh, so it can't be what's the sluttiest thing you've ever done.
[31] Jonathan Van Ness's story is an impossible story, coming from a place of sexual abuse, sex work, depression and despair to becoming the leader in his industry.
[32] The story you're about to hear is not only hilarious because that is what Jonathan is, but it's also the evidence that you might need that passion and resilience will take you to the place that you want to go to.
[33] This conversation is going to make you laugh.
[34] It's one of the more real conversations I've ever had with, anyone on this podcast because Jonathan doesn't hold back.
[35] His story is heart -wrenching.
[36] It is unthinkable and it's incredibly important.
[37] Over the last couple of months, there's been this huge rise in the conversation around trans rights and there's been a huge rise in transphobia.
[38] You've probably seen it.
[39] Today I'm going to ask him about that.
[40] Where has it come from?
[41] What is the truth?
[42] And if you're someone like me that feels quite uncomfortable about the narratives we're seeing in the world, what can we do about it?
[43] How can we help?
[44] It's time to have that uncomfortable conversation.
[45] Where do we need to begin this conversation to understand you?
[46] The conversation starts on a cornfield and rural Illinois in the late 80s, darling.
[47] what happens next oh um well i went to school my i come from a broadcasting family and like a family of journalists my i grew up my mom uh worked in the local newspaper and advertising and my dad worked in the tv station uh so that's kind of where it started i was born in 1987 and i think that was like another really interesting time in queer history and what was to come for the next few years, being that it was like the height of the height of the AIDS crisis.
[48] And I think understanding, not understanding that, but being a very queer, a feminine small child in that time, there was so much like anti -queer vitri all then, which I didn't like know that's what it was called, but I felt it.
[49] And it's so it's interesting being like this age now and having like this renaissance, not in the Beyonce way of like such anti -queer sentiment.
[50] five years old when your parents separate.
[51] Mm -hmm.
[52] What's that like for you?
[53] I actually just had a joke about this in my new set.
[54] My first reaction was, like, can I have the ring?
[55] Like, my brothers were really devastated.
[56] I just was, like, all about that diamond.
[57] Like, I've always loved jewelry.
[58] I was like, oh, my God, that would look great with my G -Oads.
[59] So I didn't really understand, like, any sort of, like, emotional implication from, like, my parents' divorce.
[60] Love my dad, love my mom.
[61] But I was like, kind of, I think I was like maybe too young to fully understand.
[62] I do think that it ultimately set me on like, um, like my stepdad and I, I, my mom started dating him when I was like six.
[63] And I write a lot about him in my first book over the top.
[64] Um, his name was Steve.
[65] And so ultimately he taught me so much about what it is to be a good person, what it is to have integrity, what it is to ask for help.
[66] Um, he had been sober for 28 years when he died in 2012.
[67] And he was like, and my dad are both really important to me. But, But Steve and my dad, like, were really good, um, you know, role models in my life in a lot of ways.
[68] And, but it took me like, from like six to like 16 to like like Steve.
[69] Uh, but then I eventually like really, you know, loved Steve and appreciated him so much for all the things that he taught me. Oh, thank you.
[70] Stay out.
[71] Just for context, the shoulder thing is, uh, do want to explain Jonathan?
[72] Yes, it's like this gorgeous, like little like tube dress honey.
[73] And what it can give you is this like turtle neck moment but that's giving me too much restriction it is pride so we need the shoulder out because it's really like this isini yaki moment that's like the shoulders meant to peekaboo is that issy misaki yeah that's beautiful pretty right yeah i want to scream in the microphone i just get so excited talking about dresses so he's just told us to contingent on this interview was us letting him know whatever the the the uh isy maziyaki number just slides a little too high it we've got to remind him to slide it down so if we say shoulder that's what we mean um how did you get on with your peers when you're that age.
[74] Did you feel like you fit fit it in per se?
[75] No, no. Um, but I did have some really good friends and some people who I, I think I know, I knew really early that friendship was really important.
[76] So I always had like some really close friends.
[77] Um, but a lot of times I think there was like, you know, quite a bit of like widespread bullying.
[78] But I think that that really hit a fever pitch like more like, you know, like sixth grade, like post sixth grade like maybe pre that there was like little murmurings and like a little bit of weirdness but I think kids are like so young at that age that they're not really like or at least in my case it wasn't like that horrific um bullying wise at the time it was more like post sixth grade I feel like but also it's like so funny I just noticed this like part of me that's like like being 36 and still talking about it like I feel like because I have processed so much of it and I've worked so hard on letting go of a lot of that and um so like for me it doesn't really hold a lot of like like bernay brown she talks about like you know can you talk about your trauma without becoming your trauma and I think in like I think it's actually still kind of hard for me to talk about like I have this like harder part that kind of comes up and is like oh like I just don't like going there but I am down to go there your square chin makes me feel safe but yeah you know what I'm saying well you you take me there you take me to where you want to go because I am in my own experience only black kid in a normal white school I grew up in Devon in the southwest which is like the countryside so I remember the feelings of just constant because it's a small town as well and you're different this constant feeling of almost a constant state of fight like my body was always in fight or flight almost just like subtly and I read I read hints of that in your story but please do tell me what your experience was no that totally that absolutely resonates I think I also write a lot about like this idea that like a lot of like joy and like happiness can coexist with grief and like shame like these emotions don't necessarily like invalidate each other so even though I did have a lot of hardships and there was abuse and there was bullying and there was a lot of othering like I think that's why I'm still so obsessed with figure skating and gymnastics like when figure skating and gymnastics was on the TV I was the happiest person of all time like none of the other things mattered so I think those kind of moments of like escapism like were these really healing moments why even now as an adult like those types of things are so exciting for me and I'm just like so into it because it I think it like it strikes at like that core memory of like just being really into something else um which I'm glad I'm still into that even though I'm like more into my life now than I wasn't obviously like I did get out of there and I did like you know a lot of my dreams came true the escapism what in that situation what were you escaping from feeling like really I mean I was like I said a really queer kid in a very like cis het world so my hometown is like my family was like quite well known in my hometown and i was really like unabashedly myself and so there was a lot of like feedback from that as i got older so i think that was like a lot of and i also was you know abused i'm survivor sexual abuse so there was like i would hear about like other kids and like you know whether it was like poverty or like see it on the news like kids or like even just like kids at school like you there's like kids at school who like clearly are going through it and like do not have the access to the resources that you have.
[79] But meanwhile, I was like definitely having people call me faggot, definitely being sexually abused.
[80] And I remember thinking like, oh, I'm glad I don't have it as bad as like, you know, so it's like it's interesting how like our perspective like is like just so funny.
[81] It's like when you're a kid, you just don't have anything to compare it to.
[82] But looking back to it on it, I'm like, I think of my little inner child and like all the things that My nickname growing up was Jack, like, what he went through.
[83] And I'm like, oh, my God, honey, that was, like, so intense.
[84] You know, like, just growing up, like, there and having, yeah, it's intense.
[85] You've been really open about the incident of sexual abuse that you've experienced and how that had a sort of cascading impact on the rest of your life.
[86] Is there a point where you, where someone around you highlights the significance of that to you at that age?
[87] No. I think that the problem with, like, sexual abuse is so many, and I, you know, I don't, like, blame anyone for this because it's just, like, what happens, that there's such this, like, an, um, insistence on, like, not talking about it.
[88] You know, like, like, don't let anyone find out.
[89] And I understand that because, like, you, like, it's like, you just don't want people to find out, like, whether it's, like, bringing shame on the church or bringing shame on, like, why didn't anyone prevent this?
[90] so it's like it I don't think it was like I think we just all wanted to like just get through it and I don't think any like there's so much shame and stigma tied up in sexual abuse that I think when it happens you're but at the same time like my mom was really wanted to deal with things like in a very head on way and like really wanted it was like therapy like we got to like once she knew she was like fuck like we got it like but then there was like other forces and like other people and you know our life.
[91] that were like I don't think and whether that was like church leaders or other people that were like I don't think that's really you know like what happens if you talk you really want your kid to be like you know so they're in especially like small rural spaces and I think that's part of what makes me so angry when we think about um you know when people would say you know that trans people are you know groomers or drag queens or like all this idea that queer people are groomers like there is so much sexual abuse in churches there is so much sexual abuse in rural communities and urban communities and all the communities.
[92] And when you look at the statistics, most often, it is like a man that you know.
[93] It is like a man in the family, a man in the church, a friend of the family.
[94] It's someone that you know.
[95] It's like not random queer people.
[96] And I just think part of why we have these like fantastical ideas of like these threats to our kids is because of the thing that I was just speaking about that like we don't talk about what really happens because we want to keep it private.
[97] We want to keep things really inside.
[98] And so when you're like, When you're drawing, like it just, it makes it, and also it's like this like smoke and mirrors thing.
[99] When you're saying that it's one thing, it's like gaslighting really from this whole other thing, which in this case is like the pervasive sexual abuse in churches and, you know, in families and communities that is just so, you know, not spoken about.
[100] And we're over here talking about drag queens and trans people.
[101] you said they that your mother was very proactive with going to therapy and things like that which is an incredible thing yeah so lucky for the time so especially because even now that's quite seen as being quite a progressive thing to do yeah but but back then when you're 16 years old for that to be one of the first sort of suggestions to take you to therapy seems to be honey I was in therapy when I was five I remember like my parents got divorced like I remember like being in therapy when I was so little that like I had to like look up in my mom like this like holding her hand you know what I'm saying like because when they got to divorce we went to like family therapy so like therapy was always very normalized for me and my mom um it's just like one of the things i just am so grateful to her for that she like normalized therapy like thank god i don't think i'd be alive without if she hadn't done that what about if i'd asked that that 16 year of you what are you going to do when you're older i always knew i wanted to do hair really like but i think my family was like you need to go to college so i was like maybe i was like i'll be a lawyer or something but then i was like you girl you can't be a lawyer you're gonna i love doing hair i think i knew i wanted to hair.
[102] Yeah.
[103] Yeah.
[104] I think about my teenage years and I think I didn't know the impact.
[105] I used the word formative at the start.
[106] I didn't know how I'd been formed until I was an adult and I saw like patterns playing out.
[107] What were the prints sort of that left on you from your earliest years that stayed with you as an adult?
[108] I think my fur, like I went, I think one of my big first phases of like wanting to understand more about like uh like my trauma or like my story it was like at cartoulli and a new earth and the power of now and like 2008 or nine it was like when Oprah was talking about him and I was like who's this Eckartoli honey and then I read the power of now and a new earth and I was like um ego I don't have an ego what's he talking about and I was like oh that's like the story that we tell ourselves I was like so like my stories that I'm like this like gay kid from this little town and I was like abused and like this and that I love cheer and I love to like really I'm like the observer of that like I'm not really that I'm like this like that was like when I started to learn about like what meditation was and what stillness was and that really gave me a lot of healing and kind of like clarity and then I that didn't last that long because I did eventually get addicted to meth like not that long after that so but thank God I had that introduction to that sort of healing at that time because I was able to come back to it.
[109] So that, and then I think, so then my stepdad got really sick, the one I was talking about earlier, Steve, he was diagnosed with cancer in like 2009, and I was really far away.
[110] I was like living in L .A. They were in Illinois.
[111] And I was in a really, you know, difficult working situation.
[112] I was like in my first serious relationship.
[113] And then all of those, all that trauma manifesting, itself was came back in terms of like um my sexual compulsivity so I'm like in love for the first time and I just like was having such a hard time like in my first relationship like just cheating nonstop and being like which I talk a lot about in my first book um and so that was when I was like okay I really need help like I don't know like so I'd had that versatile introduction to healing with like Eckhart you know solo 21 22 then Steve gets sick he ultimately dies and then it's after that that I'm like really need help and that's like when I get into therapy that's when I um start to get into 12 step myself uh which I I think being a non -binary queen anything that's too much this or that's like so sobriety was like oh I just like I don't want to be totally sober but I did get a lot of healing there um so I'm kind of a harm reduction queen but so all through my 20s I think and I don't think that we ever get to a place as much as I wish that we would where you're just like uh dealt with my trauma it's like in a box I never have to look at it again I never have to deal with it again and I think it's interesting the way you that your circumstances change and then your trauma or your you know that baggage or your ego as Eckhart refers to it will like manifest itself in different ways but I hope that we get or I hope I get better at like not identifying with the trauma or the ego like when it's like being a nightmare even though that's like also a constant struggle like ask my husband like where the fuck is my eyeliner you went to um university right mm -hmm first semester you dropped out like I did.
[114] Why did you drop out?
[115] I got really bad grades and then I got addicted to drugs.
[116] And then I realized that I wanted to be a hairdresser.
[117] So what was I going to waste all that time and money for?
[118] Was university or college, I think they called it in the US, the first time you got addicted to drugs?
[119] Was that the first time you started to seriously sort of experiment with drugs?
[120] Does weed count?
[121] Not really.
[122] Then no. Yes.
[123] Yes.
[124] Then it was.
[125] Like I had smoked weed, but that was the first time that I ever did like, really intense drugs you were away from home though right you're away from this the small town the issues of your your teen years at that point so what was um what was that context and environment like well my mom was so right she was like honey you're too young and i was like get fucked i'm leaving and honey i was so too young like i just immediately just had my face and a plate of coke like the first time i saw cocaine i was like like the first time i was like saw like i was like that's ecstasy give me six um and the next thing i knew you know because like like my parents got me like that like thing that you get at university like the little like campus like card for the food so they're like your foods paid for your dorms paid for like you really don't need very much money honey like so like my mom gave me like $300 a month because like everything else was paid for right like what else could you fucking mean like I didn't have to work like because like they did everything right like so cool right like so but I was like well how am I supposed to get all messed up on drugs all the time if I only have $300 like that math isn't working.
[126] so right like that's like that's like two days you know if you're really going out with your friends um so then i just was like then i discovered like sex work and then i was like oh next thing i knew i was like pulling tricks to like um get drugs so that i could do more drugs and then after doing that for a few months i was like and i dropped out of college like through that um i was like um because my mom had cut me off by then i was like mommy um i was sorry i'm like literally selling my body like I feel scared like can you just put some money in the checking account like I'll drive the car home I'll be like I'll just come I'll kind of I'll be back in three days can you just I'm scared and she was like Jesus yes I'm my baby and so she did that poor mom right um and so she did that cutely though like right before that I found this kitten in the hood of a car um who was my first bug the first and honest to God I write about him too like he really gave me like the will to like like not be a sex worker and because at first it was like for funsies for to just get drugs for partying right then once i got cut off it was like no like i don't want to go back home and like show that i fucked up so i just need to like figure it out but like that was really not where i wanted to be it wasn't like i was like doing sex work from a place of empowerment i was doing it from like a place of like deep trauma like wanting validation trying to support a drug habit like it was not a good place for like an 18 year old to be I was like, it was really, like, I put myself in so many really dangerous situations.
[127] Someone pulled a gun on you, right?
[128] Uh -huh.
[129] Yeah, it was really, like, really, really dangerous situations.
[130] Um, and so, yeah, that was like, I mean, I look back at some of the things that happened, and I honestly can't believe that I made it, because it was really, like, so touch and go in a lot of situations, like, one little thing different, and it could have, like, so many situations, but that's true of anyone, but it was really, you know, traumatizing.
[131] But so I find this little cat.
[132] And I realized when I find this little cat, I was like, I want to raise this little cat.
[133] He was like this little black cat in the hood of this car.
[134] And, um, but that really was like so super healing for me. And I think that started like, I'm such a little like animal parent.
[135] I have like five cats and three dogs now with my husband.
[136] And that I really think it was just like such a huge like turning point.
[137] Like just like falling like just falling in love with like cats and dogs.
[138] are just like so healing.
[139] Finding a little cat in the boot of a car seems to be trivial, but it's not, is it?
[140] Because really what I heard there is in a moment where you were in a bit of a desperate situation, that cat gave you a reason and a purpose.
[141] Yeah, no. Yes.
[142] And then it has continued to be like a huge source of like joy and like grounding like in my life that is like really so not trivial.
[143] Like really, really was a huge turning point.
[144] So if you go to hair school.
[145] Yeah.
[146] Where did you go L .A.?
[147] the evaded institute at minneapolis oh minneapolis yeah and how did that go for you cute i got better there i got better there and then i um and then i moved back to arizona after i finished school so i only lived there for about a year um in my mind i felt like my first experience in arizona because that's where i went to college was like this failure and i really wanted to like go back and do better and like not have it be a failure um and so i moved back and then that was like a really cute time.
[148] Like I got to like I like worked for myself the first time.
[149] I had like my own chair at a salon.
[150] Um, and that made me kind of feel like responsible for like the first time and like I turned 21 in that time.
[151] And then after a few years of that, I was like I felt like I couldn't really cut myself out of a paper bag.
[152] Like I felt like I was in a good hairdresser.
[153] All I knew how to do was like chunky Kelly Clarkson highlights like circa like breakaway 2004.
[154] You know what I'm saying?
[155] So then I wanted to move to LA and work at a really good salon and have a devil worst product experience.
[156] So I did.
[157] So then I moved to LA and then that's when I like really like figured out how to do better hair because I got a good job at assisting at a salon.
[158] That was really good.
[159] And how were you doing at that time?
[160] How are you doing on a personal level?
[161] Yeah.
[162] Like not.
[163] You're 22 years old.
[164] Yeah.
[165] Like I think it was I was I was like handling the move to LA pretty well up until my stepdad got sick and then it was like and then like my little like healing era came to like a screeching halt.
[166] also the relationship it was like falling in love and my stepdad's diagnosis like together like yeah much all my trauma got triggered in was bad was there something in in hindsight that you think could have been done to stop the stepdad's illness situation resulting in destructive behavior was there was there was there was a therapy needed or a conversation or was there was it a lack of a support network or something that could have kind of caught you in a moment where you were you were falling without really knowing you were falling no well i don't think so because i i realized that i was like doing things sexually at that time that like i regretted and like i didn't feel good about myself afterwards and that's how i was kind of like oh i think this is like a problem and then um and that also kind of started happening like right after i met like my like my first love and so and i told him about it i was honest with him i got help um So he knew I got a therapist at that time.
[167] But, like, ultimately, like, I wasn't ready to deal with it.
[168] And so, no, I think that was kind of an interesting lesson of, like, you can have all the support in the world.
[169] But if you're not ready to, like, sit with your stuff, like, nothing's going to move you.
[170] But it wasn't until he left me and Steve died that I, and I got HIV.
[171] that I was like, okay, I really want to, like, not do this anymore.
[172] And that was when I ultimately, like, was able to get better.
[173] But I needed to really, I did it with a lot of support, but I needed to hit rock bottom and then get the support.
[174] I hear that a lot, you know.
[175] I hear this.
[176] I remember approaching, got a friend who was in the public spotlight, and I was trying to figure out how I could help them because they clearly were art in a difficult.
[177] situation so I approached their management and said what can I do to be a supportive in the situation their management said to me we've been here quite a few times and in fact until the person wants to make a change they won't and often you have to let the person hit rock bottom before change will happen and I remember at first hearing that being really uncomfortable with that the idea that you have to kind of let someone get there on their own and even if the route to there is downward first before it's up.
[178] It feels really hard to accept, I guess, especially when you love the person.
[179] Do you think that's true?
[180] Yeah.
[181] But my step that always said, you know, like not every, like, well, he, this is like all 12 step, like well -known 12 -step phraseology, but like every bottom has a basement.
[182] So I can always get worse.
[183] And also like you don't have to ride the elevator to the bottom.
[184] So like not every, like everyone's rock bottoms like look different.
[185] Like it doesn't mean that you have to like, It doesn't mean someone's going to bite it necessarily.
[186] I mean, they might, but some people are just like, ooh, I got like a DUI and that was enough.
[187] Okay.
[188] Other people are like, you know, everyone's bottom looks different.
[189] Some people don't survive their bottoms.
[190] Sex addiction.
[191] Something we don't talk about enough.
[192] We talk about drug addiction, alcohol addiction.
[193] We even talk about social media addiction and screen addiction, but having a conversation about sex addiction seems to be.
[194] harder than all of the aforementioned forms of addiction.
[195] I remember having Terry Cruz on the podcast when we're in LA and him telling me that he had a porn addiction and it was destroying his life.
[196] On the surface, someone might find it hard to understand how something like that can destroy one's life.
[197] You talk about having a sex addiction and going on a sex addiction course, I believe during that time when you roughly ran the LA time.
[198] What impact was it having on your life?
[199] and your relationships.
[200] Well, it's interesting because I think if, if I'm correct, I think that, like, sex addiction, like, is not, like, a recognized addiction in, like, the DSD, whatever.
[201] DSM.
[202] Yeah, DSM.
[203] But it's, whereas, like, you know, other ones are.
[204] So the effects I was having on my life was, like, obviously, I got HIV.
[205] And, but even before that, like, I was already, like, going to meetings and I'd already been to rehab twice before I got HIV.
[206] so um like a sex rehab no they were like well one was one had like a sex uh compel like a sexual compulsivity like course like within the program and then the other one that i went to i found like an outpatient that did that work so i could like i went there like you know during the day from like this other rehab i had to be like an in a resourceful queen um but ultimately it's like a process addiction you know whether it's like gambling food like sex it's like it was like a process addiction so the way that um it was affecting my life was like just you know doing things that i regretted um i describe a lot of like disassociated behavior like this like inability to like just get off like couldn't get off the phone couldn't stop cruising like i just felt like i wasn't like fess it would like like that firefighter was like so blended in my driver's seat like I couldn't I couldn't get centered self like into the goddamn car when you say cruising you mean you were like searching yeah it's like a queer queer term for like what like gays do when you're like yeah whether it's like you're cruising on grinder or you're like at a bathhouse or you're like whatever you're doing can you tell me about that journey so at some point you realize that you've got sexual compulsivity at some point it becomes a problem in your life and you lose your partner in this case and there's you know you realize that you've lost control of that and then at some point you get to a stage of healing where you become aware and you understand where the origin of this sexual compulsivity that third point understanding the origins of that sexual compulsivity when was that and how did that happen well you know it's interesting I think it's it's um that reminds me of this thing that this one guy in rehab said he said like not knowing why he was an alcoholic is not what made him crazy, it was needing to know why he was an alcoholic is what made him crazy.
[207] So I think it's a lot.
[208] And that was actually a huge disappointment for me. And I think we put way too much emphasis on like trying to like understand your origin story.
[209] Because like once I understood my origin story and it was like really clear as day and like I'd done all my work and I'd done like all of this processing and like all of the memories came back.
[210] And like I already had all the memories.
[211] But then like there was just certain things that I was able to connect and like really understand very clearly.
[212] I was still left with.
[213] the scarring and I was still left with the patterns like I still once I knew it wasn't like I was like oh well now I don't want to fuck 20 strangers anymore like it wasn't like that like all of that pattern and all of that like you know feels insecure once validation won't stop until they get the validation then they feel insecure again for doing the thing and then it like it's just a cycle that like repeats itself all the time and we talk about that in sexual compulsivity it's like the trigger and then like the trigger to do the thing and then you start cruising for the thing and then you do the thing and then the shame from the thing just makes you go right back into it so it's just this like cycle so um really it was just like understanding through so much like repetition of hurting myself like there's like oh I don't really want to do this I don't feel better after I do this like I think I'm going to but then I don't and um so it was really just like through continually like really hurting myself and then going back to therapy like falling off the horace getting back on like and also like Matthew.
[214] use has a huge part to do with this for a lot of queer people at least and i mean there are straight people as well but i think it's probably like lesser numbers um because of like you know the whole like meth and sex like scene which is you know quite prevalent in queer communities um so it's not quite prevalent but it's like prevalent it happens and so i think once the further away that i was able to get from meth the easier it was for me to heal from because also it's like and i talk a lot about this of my new show fun and sleddy it's like um Sexuality isn't bad.
[215] Like, sexuality is good.
[216] Expressing our sexuality is good.
[217] It's lack of consent.
[218] It's abuse.
[219] It's manipulation.
[220] It's doing things that you regret.
[221] Those are the things that are not good.
[222] But, you know, decoupling that and, like, kind of understanding that and understanding, like, are you doing this because you have a trauma response?
[223] And so you're doing this or you do this because you really, really want to do it.
[224] So there's like a whole, you know, conversation about like sex positivity to be had here, too.
[225] And, you know, a lot of people are really opposed to the idea of sexual compulsivity or sex addiction because they're like, that's really not sex positive.
[226] And maybe it's, you know, X, Y, Z or whatever.
[227] But for me, I think it's way more important to recognize that, like, in my case, it was, I didn't feel good.
[228] And now I feel better.
[229] And I know a lot of people like myself who were able to, like, you know, come more into a space of healing and more into a space of, like, balance with their, like, sexual self.
[230] So.
[231] but again just like anything that's never like all the way just like done and dusted like you're always in conversation with yourself and with your trauma and your behavior and like how you want to regulate that or express that I would also be remiss to say like I mean I already had a lot of healing prior to meeting my husband and I think that's part of like why I even like met him you know universally speaking anyway because I had done that work but having a husband who I can be open with and honest with and who you know doesn't judge me for the things that I've been through and he can like create a safe space for you know to hold my stuff with me is really helpful as well.
[232] I was just chatting to some friends this um this weekend Friday about how we I was trying to figure out because one of my the people that I was with the three of them they're all single.
[233] Um, they're seeking not to be single.
[234] And I was I was saying to them that I found the right person in my life when I was not necessarily the completed version of myself, but I had to do a lot of work to even find that jigsaw piece that matched me as a different -shaped jigsaw piece.
[235] Like I had to do a lot of work.
[236] And I wasn't all the way there because I do feel like you go on a journey with that partner, but you have to kind of be aiming in the same direction at least.
[237] So I guess my question to you, this is a bit of a tangent is what do you think about that, about like the season where we find the right person?
[238] How much work do we have to do on ourselves to be ready when we meet?
[239] that person um there's this other type of therapy that i love called pact therapy which stands for like the psychobiological approach to couples therapy which was um invented by dr stan takken so he created packed therapy and so he talks about an insecure functioning relationship and a secure functioning relationship so earlier when i was speaking about my mom and my stepdad and i was like that secure functioning relationship my first relationship was an insecure functioning relationship with my first partner that in conjunction with like my stepdad's illness and then just being like 24 and 25 out of my window of tolerance could not handle firefighters were activated all fucked up you know like my life kind of so that's that so but stan says that you can an insecure functioning relationship can turn into a function a secure functioning one if both parties want it if they're both willing to like work on themselves work on the relationship and also stan says that like a lot of um brokenness or like trauma in oneself can actually really be healed through that sort of like couples therapy.
[240] So I don't know if you really have to be like a more full that whole thing of like two fully formed circles need to make the chain because like if you're a fragmented how are you like you're going to make a fuck up.
[241] So I think I think we actually it pisses me off when people to get too much into that like relational expert stuff because like just like we all have our own experience like every relationship has its own experience.
[242] So we can like pull from some like you know what's that called like uh like we can pull from some like data of or like but like not real day like just like oratory like data of just people talking about it and telling us things and well my friend this and my friend that but like ultimately I think that like there is there's like a different path for everyone to find like their relationship and whether or not it starts and I also think even in my marriage like I feel like we've had moments that we got married after like six months like in the middle of a fucking pandemic like it was you know it was wow it was a weird time you know because we just started saying I love you and then borders shut down and then I was like if we want to keep I don't know if I can just not get fucked by you for like years and like a respiratory pandemic like I like you know like I think I need you to like get over here but he was British and I'm American and so we just like let's see what happens and then once you get to the end of that SDA visa or whatever it's like either got to get married and so it wasn't the way I think either of us ever imagined that like we would get married but like we are so happy I'm so glad that we did we've learned so much of about each other we're like it's like I'm so happy that we did but like when I was little I don't know if I was like imagining that would like I'd get married like a backyard like with only a judge because like you know no one's family could be there because there's no you know what I mean so something beautiful about that though no it was amazing and I'm like so happy that we did it but I just think everyone can have like a different like a pro and just because you've had this or that or like everyone just has like their own way and I think that's like cool movies fuck us up there don't they?
[243] Yes, they really do.
[244] You know, it's got to be a movies.
[245] Expectation, expectation, expectation.
[246] And then that kills happiness and makes us confuse real with, you know, I don't know, some other shit.
[247] And that's a really great answer.
[248] It's a really great answer.
[249] We do.
[250] We try and work out the perfect formula for things too much in life.
[251] But there is really no perfection when you're dealing with such complex organisms.
[252] Yes.
[253] Forming complex relationships.
[254] So you move to, is it St. Louis?
[255] Yeah, St. Louis.
[256] St. Louis, when you were 25?
[257] Mm -hmm.
[258] What was that about?
[259] Why did you leave L .A.?
[260] Um, wanted to be closer to my stepdad.
[261] And so, uh, yeah, that was my.
[262] And also because I was like, couldn't stop.
[263] I was like, L .A. is why I can't stop doing drugs and having sex with strangers.
[264] Even though I love this person so much.
[265] Like, well, it's, and then unfortunately, as my stepdad always said, no matter where you go, there you are.
[266] So obviously leaving L .A. didn't fix anything.
[267] And then he actually passed away, like, three weeks after we left L .A. and got to St. Louis.
[268] So it was like bad on bad.
[269] And then I really, really freaked out.
[270] Like, then I was, that was like the most self -destructive era.
[271] Take me into that moment.
[272] Well, one too.
[273] Fine.
[274] It's in the book.
[275] Yeah, I read, I read, um, I read, I read, I read that that was a very difficult time for you.
[276] Um, Because I also just think that, like, we don't need to, like, I don't need to, like, war story, which is, like, what we call it in rehab.
[277] Like, when you talk about, like, the worst thing.
[278] I mean, there's a way that you can do it, like, with respect and, like, not speak, you know, to, like, I was doing this much things and these drugs.
[279] And, but, like, I also, you know, in protecting my energy, like, I've been on an international tour for 10 days.
[280] Like, I've given myself so much into, like, my new show, like, which has just been, I'm so proud of it.
[281] It's, like, my third, like, hour of comedy.
[282] But, like, I'm not all the way.
[283] in a space where, like, I want to speak to that part in my life right now.
[284] So I'm just going to set a really loving boundaries.
[285] So I don't really want to chat about it.
[286] That's fine.
[287] I respect that a lot.
[288] Thanks, honey.
[289] What do I, if I, if I, when's the next significant moment in your life then?
[290] So you, that, that, Stephen is his name?
[291] Steve.
[292] Steve passes away.
[293] Cause is a series of issues in your life.
[294] You move back to L .A. Mm -hmm.
[295] Did you ever think TV and media would be part of your?
[296] Not in this way.
[297] No. And how exciting that that, like, it was such, like, a curveball.
[298] But, no, I mean, I just was, like, accidentally telling a really talented producer, an actress and comedian friend of mine, who was a client about Game of Thrones.
[299] And I was like, have you seen this show?
[300] It's like this and it's that.
[301] And, like, I did a little impromptu recap of it as I was, like, doing her hair.
[302] And when I was done, she was like, that's a series.
[303] And so then we did Gay of Thrones.
[304] That was, like, December of 12.
[305] And then the next year we started doing Gay of Thrones that, like, March.
[306] And then K of Thrones came out and it was meant to be like one episode.
[307] But then we got Alfie Allen for our second episode.
[308] And then Funny or Die was like, keep doing this.
[309] And so then I went really from being like a hairdresser to learning on the job how to be a performer, how to like improv, how to deliver scripted lines, how to write, how to produce.
[310] I mean, I was writing and producing and didn't even know that that's what I was doing because I was doing it on the job.
[311] so like I just learned like this whole new skill set kind of like over the years like for like three months a year like I would do Gay of Thrones and I just like kind of slow and then after doing Gay of Thrones for two years I was like oh this is so fun I want to do this more and so then that's when I started my podcast getting curious and then I got to like learn how to produce that and learn how to research for that and book clients for that I mean I think I did like the first 50 episodes with like myself and a sound engineer but I was like booking it myself like it was like I was like just learning like all these things that I had never really done and so then I really started to get like stung by that B and I was like I want to do this more and I always have loved doing hair but I was like I want to be I want to write more I want to be more on camera I want to like I want to do this more often and then in 2018 the queer I was actually not 18 it was 2017 I read that the reboot was happening and they were casting for it and I was like this is my moment like this is what I've been waiting for like this is the vehicle like I always loved queer eye growing up my grandparents and I would watch it together it was like I'm ready and then I went to that audition and that audition was literally like the scene in mean girls when they're all at the fountain and everyone's like tackling each other um it was like that except for everyone was like being really sweet and I remember like this one creator of the show like his eyes like I said this like funny thing and I was like okay you need to be like you are on gay of thrones all times like you need to be on 15 and you just say fucking one -liners all the time like just be the funniest you have ever even thought about being for the next 48 hours capish like that's what I was saying like in my head and I did like I was just like and I just was like so on why you you know I think so I I not me darling well I have my suspicions but I for you to you know It wasn't just an audition, even the stuff you were doing with, was it funny or die, wasn't it, the channel back then?
[312] Yeah, Gay of Thrones.
[313] Yeah.
[314] Yeah.
[315] Um, do you ever pause and think, like, what is it about you that made you really successful in Gay of Thrones and then really successful in Queer Eye?
[316] What is it about you in your own assessment?
[317] I don't know.
[318] Really?
[319] I really don't.
[320] Because I think it could have been a million people.
[321] I think that I have, I think I'm resilient.
[322] I think that I have been told no so many times and didn't turn around and go back.
[323] I like found a different way.
[324] I think that's really important.
[325] We've got resilience.
[326] But, you know, just from meeting you now, you have a remarkable talent for wit and humor.
[327] You're very funny.
[328] And you have a very unforgettable personality.
[329] You're like, you're an unbelievable energy.
[330] and no i'm no but i'm i'm jen you know i think you're no but you know you i'm so i can't do what you do and i've i've only met you for like i don't know an hour or so and i can't be i'm not as hilarious and witty and i don't i don't i can't almost describe it that some people just have like a really engaging personality and you have that you have that like energy that's a huge part of it surely your success um because you're you know especially on team I don't know.
[331] I really don't.
[332] Like, I see people like I have, I don't know people that make me laugh that I think are way funnier than me. Like way funnier, way more witty, way more like unforgettable personalities.
[333] But like, I think that a lot of the people who I'm thinking of like had some message from the like in their lives where like they were like either or like their moment hasn't happened yet.
[334] It's one of the two.
[335] Yeah, yeah.
[336] But I think for a lot of people that like maybe like backed away or like we're like I don't want to like because like I, it's.
[337] because actually in retrospect like I really is not just I think that like oh I didn't chase my dream I actually really did chase this like with Gay of Thrones you know like I like I wanted more than Gay of Throne I mean Gay of Thrones started in 2013 and I didn't book Queer Eye until 2017 and then there was no knowing if queer I was going to work or not until like 2018 so I mean 2013 was 10 years ago like I've been at this for a long time and so and there was like so many setbacks like so many setbacks through that.
[338] time.
[339] Your authentic self, I've sat here with a lot of people in TV and TV and media can often make us, it can incentivize us to become a, like, not a character, but like, and I sat here with Jake Humphreys and a wonderful lady called Fern Cotton, who are TV presenters.
[340] I love Fern.
[341] Oh, you know Fern.
[342] Yeah.
[343] So Fern told me on the podcast that she spent 10 years as a TV presenter and she, I think, realized at some point that she was living outside of herself.
[344] And at least she wasn't able to reflect the full array of her, who she was.
[345] And that resulted in panic attacks and other sort of psychological issues she had.
[346] And it's made, and now she's so successful doing Happy Place where she's able to be herself.
[347] So this conversation around like being your authentic self, being the pathway to your greatest success, what is your take on that?
[348] This idea of like showing up as yourself regardless of the temptations or disincentivizations or incentivizations to be something else.
[349] How important to you has been being yourself regardless?
[350] it's such because like even like because I totally understand but even that feels like I don't think like what is like all the way authentic what's like all the way yourself because I always get leery when we're like because like if if the alternative is like I don't think that there's such things that being like all the way yourself or not yourself at all like like so I think it's like a spectrum like everything is kind of really much more of like a spectrum than it is like a binary.
[351] like choice so and like when she was saying with fern it was like you know she's like a tv presenter but she couldn't show like the fullness of herself so like that's why i wrote over the top because i and i think and love that's where i say like or no it's an over the top i say they're like i love an episode of queer i just as much as the next person but if i can't tell you my full truth and tell you who i really am then like i can't help other people like me and i actually can't even be myself and then the whole crux of over the top is and what i ask in the book is like would you still want to have a selfie with me like would you still love me if you knew my whole story.
[352] And so that's, you know, and then I say and love that story that the resounding answer that I got from so many people was yes.
[353] You know, I do still love you.
[354] And like in most cases it was like even more so.
[355] But were there parts?
[356] I think we always have parts of ourselves that are informed by external factors.
[357] Like if I didn't get feedback from people when I go like, when I say something funny that that, if I didn't get positive feedback from that, would I still be making all those jokes?
[358] like so does that mean I'm not really you know what I'm saying like every every way that we show up in the world is because of like our socialization our relationships like our communities like I don't think that that makes you like it's really like your relationship with yourself and I don't think that like I don't think that there's like authentic and like inauthentic there's like sometimes I'm more like this because of this thing and sometimes I'm more like that because of that thing you know what I mean perfect makes perfect sense that's so interesting but it is the truth and you know i think is actually more authentic is like being able to like speak to what you're actually feeling like in the moment like i feel like earlier when we were saying like um like i literally caught myself i was like oh like you know bray brown says can you talk about your trauma without becoming your trauma and i was like literally laying that up because i was feeling vulnerable with you i was and i didn't like it so i was like oh yeah i totally can like i can't like i can totally speak and it like doesn't really hurt me so i don't really want to talk about it that much because it's like but then it's like actually that was really a protector part that was coming up because i want to talk about it and I felt like I was going to become my trauma like because I am a little tired and I am a little run down like after the last two weeks like I've worked my fucking ass off for these last two weeks and another thing that's interesting that I don't really want to talk about but when I was originally supposed to when we were going to do this the last time I had like a really close family member die super young super out of the blue like which we don't but she got strep throat and died in four days my sister -in -law and so that's why I wasn't in the United Kingdom which I also didn't ever talk about publicly because it's like not anything I wanted to talk about but like it's I think really what being authentic is is having the courage and like the vulnerability to say like this is what I'm going through like this is like actually the thought that I actually had in my head like when I was about to try to lie to you like this is really what it was and like for me it's like sometimes it's like if you come up to me for a selfie and like especially on that day like with Leslie my sister -in -law like I wasn't taking selfies it wasn't in a good mood when my cat fell out of a window, and you asked me for a selfie, I wasn't going to take a selfie.
[359] And sometimes I'll be like, yeah, like, let's just, like, let's do it.
[360] But then sometimes, but, you know, normally if my life is okay and I'm not going through like some horrific trauma, that's not the energy I give you when you want a selfie.
[361] I'm like, yeah, girl, like, it's like, let's do it.
[362] But sometimes I'm not always like that.
[363] And so I think that's really what's authentic is saying that, like, just because you always see me, like, or the two episodes of Queer Eye that you saw me five years ago and you remember me saying some funny, quippy things, what's really authentic is me being able to be like, that's not always who I am.
[364] And there's actually like a fuller picture there.
[365] So I feel like that is like what authentic is.
[366] But there have been moments like where I was probably like totally someone asking for a selfie and it's like, sure, girl, let's do it.
[367] And on the inside, I was like, I want to die.
[368] Like I don't feel good.
[369] I feel awful.
[370] And then the expectation of someone that I need to perform that for them constantly, no matter what's going on, that shit wears me out, which is why I can't do it all the time.
[371] so like that's yeah I like I just think authenticity is like this like buzzword that we use when like really what it is is like are you willing to like be open about like what you need like what your experience is like what someone's like expecting of you regardless of how the external world might respond positively or negatively to that yeah gosh then if that is the definition of authenticity it's even harder than I thought because authenticity is it's often portrayed is just like like being being your personality warts and all being that you know my personality is slightly weird in certain ways being that regardless of company but in the definition you've described there it's like boundaries and like staying true to myself regardless of the consequences of that externally which is as you say I have tired days I have days when I'm in a bad mood when I'm when I need some space where I don't want anyone to talk to me and on those days expressing that is authenticity.
[372] I love that.
[373] How are you feeling?
[374] Now?
[375] Yeah, you know, your schedule's been crazy.
[376] You've been doing a lot of work lately.
[377] How are you feeling?
[378] Um, look, I feel, I feel really grateful, and at the same time, I feel really frustrated.
[379] Um, and that's the best way I can explain it right now.
[380] I'm going through a lot of grief.
[381] I just lost my sister and lost.
[382] two months ago.
[383] I'm watching my nephews, like, grow up, you know, dealing with unimaginable grief.
[384] I'm watching my brother deal with unimaginable loss.
[385] So talking about, you know, how I'm feeling and it's just, this has been a really hard time.
[386] And I think balancing your private life with being a public figure who is constantly expected to be a ray of fucking sunshine, no matter what is going on, it can be challenging.
[387] um so i love my hairline i love what i get to do with jvian hair i love that i get to be a comedian i love that when i want to like do a show i can like there's people that want to come see my comedy like comedy has been so healing for me and it's like one place in my career where i get to be irreverent and i get to like i feel like i'm the most myself on stage i think that's like the most accurate and unfiltered like version of who I am is like on stage but I think like any artist when you like like I just been burning the candle at both ends for the last like 10 days so like in this very moment in my life like actually this particular moment I feel frustrated and grieving um when I zoom out a little bit and give voice to that frustration and now I can like sit with this or like longer than actually like tell like give a larger answer um I feel, like, actually it's the same.
[388] I feel grateful and frustrated.
[389] Like, Dylan Mulvaney is a really good friend of mine.
[390] I love her so much.
[391] I've, like, watch what's happened to her in the press for the last few months.
[392] I'm, like, so frustrated.
[393] I just see so much, like, just absolute garbage, like, just transphobic garbage all over the place.
[394] I see really not very many folks really interrogating their beliefs around their transphobia, interrogating, like, where are they getting their information?
[395] and then even understanding like our transphobia that we experience in our culture is like really truly rooted in like white supremacy and colonialism and this conversation goes back like 400 years and so that's like a really big systemic thing but then living in a state where like this woman literally just lost her life because this guy thought that she looked queer like there are kids that like their families are like moving like they can't like they can't like their kids who like if they have already started their transition and they're like if they're you know 16 year old and they're a sophomore in high school and they've been living and their gender identity since they were like a five year old kid they've been on puberty blockers when they were you know little they had a concert of doctors and their family who cares about them and loves them deeply help them transition because if they didn't transition in some cases not all cases but some cases like these kids will have such an intense gender dysphoria that they can commit suicide.
[396] They can do things that can truly never be reversed.
[397] And so we have these people making these hyperbolic claims about protecting children and about protecting children for making irreversible decisions, bathrooms, fairness in sports, all these things when trans people make up at most like 2 % of the population.
[398] Like gun violence is out of control, education's out of control, like people don't have access to the food, to the health care.
[399] I mean, my book's been, banned like my book like peanut goes for the gold like they're talking about banning i mean like this is really serious and so like it's just frustrating i'm grateful but i think to like have had a lot of my dreams come true like i said earlier but then in this like environment of like where you feel like oh my god like if one person decides that like something that i said or did they can like i mean you literally because so much of the transphobia that we read about like when you read like if you read an article about what happened to Dylan, like the way that people just speak about trans people and non -binary people, like the quotations, the inferred like threats or like not believing that we are who we say that we are.
[400] But then like how that actually has like been taken farther now to like revoking health care, like, you know, limiting access to health care, calling health care child abuse.
[401] It's just really frustrating because it's such like a gigantic conversation that there's a lot of nuance and a lot of people have been exposed to misinformation and disinformation and disinformation don't really understand and so then and then I'm in this position of like like how do I balance like what I'm seeing happening to friends and people who I love and then like running a business and trying to grow my business and then with this backdrop of all this fucked up shit it's hard so I'm like you know I'm grateful like and I'm also like a hairdresser who loves doing hair like I love.
[402] love good products.
[403] Like, I'm someone who in my 20s, like, I would overdraft my checking account to get the shampoo and conditioner that I wanted.
[404] Like, I, because I know when your hair feels good, like, when you feel good about how you look, like, you just feel so much better.
[405] And I would literally choose, like, products over food all the time in my 20s.
[406] And so I wanted to make products that are clean and, but ultimately, like, more than clean.
[407] Like, I really wanted to make products that work really, really, really well that don't cost, like, $100 for a shampoo and conditioner.
[408] Like, I just wanted to make really highly functional products that work on people's hair, the hairdressers love, and that people love that they can actually afford.
[409] And I'm so passionate about it, but, like, there's a lot of times that I can't even think about the cool things that I've done, because I'm like, literally, like, if you read comments right now, but who cares about a comment?
[410] I don't really care about comments.
[411] I care about, like, what's happened in my state, like, in Texas.
[412] Like, I mean, they're, like, like, this, like, drag band that was just past, like, I'm performing in Texas in Austin in December.
[413] Like, I have to make sure, like, there used to be able to be, like, now, in this show.
[414] fun and slutty.
[415] I wouldn't want kids there anyway.
[416] It is like an adult show.
[417] But like it is like there is like I'm like there was there's a law that they were talking about that would like just force people to wear clothes of their like biological sex in public.
[418] That law didn't pass.
[419] There's a conversation around it.
[420] The way that we're like trending and heading.
[421] And any time where you like talk about like limiting a whole group's ability to like, you know, access like information, health care.
[422] education or just like their exposure to public under the guise of like protecting kids like historically we've really seen that a lot of times like against so many marginalized groups so I think anytime when that starts happening we all really need to be super leery especially because like sex abuse is such a huge issue and it is happening in families and in churches and it's happening in schools I'll tell you where it's not happening is it drag queen brunch okay it's not happening there um not happening in health care clinics.
[423] Well, maybe it could be in some places like I don't, you know, but really it's like it is not happening in gender affirming care and it ain't happening at drag queen brunches.
[424] A dentist or, you know, some doctor might put you under some, those things happen with these crazy fucking cishead doctors who you find out we're like, you know, impregnating their fucking patients or like that is what, so maybe that, but like in gender affirming care and in drag queen brunch, it's not child abuse.
[425] Where's this?
[426] Because I've noticed this what feels like quite a tectonic shift in transphobic narratives over the last couple of months in particular, it seems to have been this ground.
[427] And I can't figure out where it's come from.
[428] I was saying to this to you earlier on.
[429] But if I don't know where it's come from, I don't really know.
[430] Part of it is conservative think tanks.
[431] So when Biden won in 2020, and we saw this in Virginia because the Virginia House of Delegates by one vote stayed Republican and then because they have off cycle elections in Virginia as told 2019 it flips back to Democrats and then 2021 it reverses again and goes back to Republicans and the issue that they really use there was bathrooms and trans rights because the Democratic controlled legislator in that 19 session had done some things on trans rights and they threw these conservative think tanks, because a lot of times Virginia, because it has off years, like they use that as like a bellwether to like test things, like just on both sides, like Democrats and Republicans, but they were throwing everything at the wall.
[432] Abortion, hell, no, they don't want that.
[433] That's not going well for them right now because most people support the right to abortion.
[434] So for Republicans, like that's not a winning thing right now.
[435] But the thing that in gay marriage, that's not really a huge thing anymore because most people support gay marriage.
[436] But when they threw trans rights, when they threw biological males, competing against women in sports, robbing, you know, your sweet, pretty little white girl of her, you know, hard -earned sporting opportunities.
[437] That stuck.
[438] That stuck hardcore.
[439] That got people fucking circling the wagons, honey.
[440] So that is when we really started to see.
[441] And when you were like, oh, it's just in these last three months, it has not just been in these last three months.
[442] That's because of the way that elections work and because we just had a midterm election in November of last year.
[443] And then they don't take office.
[444] until January and then it takes months and months for things to get through committee and stuff.
[445] All of this shit has been in the works.
[446] We've all been talking about this.
[447] If you look at my getting curious that was canceled on Netflix last fucking year, there's a whole episode about this.
[448] And it talks about the anti -drag bills up until 2022.
[449] As compared to that time, we have four times more at that time.
[450] And the graph was like this.
[451] So it isn't new.
[452] And it just takes a minute.
[453] But I think another thing that we're seeing is that like, you know how you were saying like, oh, the line or like the, the thing of like the tiger's coming for you run away from the tiger so that's like negativity bias versus like positive positive bias that's why a story of like someone getting murdered or someone getting abused is going to go way farther than like you know the good news network story you know it's your negativity bias so that's the other thing is that like because we have so much fear mongering around trans issues right now um that's also part of like why like it feels like it's going so much farther because people really are actually thinking that people really think that there's like little kids going and getting hysterectomies like going to school as a boy and coming home as a girl having like full you know what I mean like people actually had been convinced that like there's little teeny children who are making you know permanent medical decisions with no parental supervision with no medical supervision people really think that's true another huge issue that we're up against right now is that there's so much disinformation around like the fact that actually like biological sex is in and of itself a spectrum like that's that's not even a binary.
[454] Like, do you know what intersex is?
[455] Do I?
[456] Yeah.
[457] No, I don't.
[458] So that's the I, an LGBTQIA.
[459] There is like six intersex, there's six, my friend Alicia Rothweigel is an amazing intersex activist.
[460] Her book is coming out.
[461] It's called Inverse Cowgirl.
[462] She also just helped produce a movie that just came out that is called everybody.
[463] But statistics show that up to 2%, I've interviewed her on getting curious if you ever want to listen to it.
[464] But up to 2 % of our population is inter, and you should actually have her on this podcast because she's fucking major.
[465] but 2 % of our population is intersex.
[466] We don't test everyone that's born for what our chromosomes are.
[467] So there's X, X, X, Y, but then there's also a variation that's X, X, Y. There's also some, there's, like, these multiple variations.
[468] There's six main ones that qualify someone as intersex.
[469] And so what happens is, and is that, like, if a kid is born intersex, doctors, they don't even mark that down.
[470] Like, they will take the kid, they talk to the parent, and they say, like, whatever the genitalia most appears as, And literally one thing that I have learned and have been told is, like, doctors will literally say it's easier to dig a hole than build a pole.
[471] So most people that are born intersex, they will make into someone that looks biologically female.
[472] But these people will have to take hormones for their entire life.
[473] They have to have genital surgery, like on their genitals when they are babies.
[474] I'm talking like, operate on their genitals when they're babies.
[475] And then when they're kids.
[476] And then they have to wear expanders when their kids, like their parents have to teach them how to wear expanders so they will have a vagina.
[477] that looks like other people's vaginas.
[478] So kids currently, up to 2 % of people.
[479] Now, when you say that to transphobes, they'll say like, oh, well, actually, that study was wrong, and it's only 0 .02 people.
[480] It's not 2%.
[481] It's 0 .2.
[482] In either way, 2 % of the population of 7 billion, that's hundreds of millions of people who have intersex characteristics.
[483] Of 0 .2, that's still millions and millions of people with intersex characteristics.
[484] And there's a lot of people who look like they're men who are actually walking around here with X, X, X, Y chromosomes.
[485] A lot of men who can't have kids, it's actually because they have, they are intersex.
[486] So intersex people exist all over the place.
[487] Like intersex is a real thing.
[488] The idea of biological sex being a binary isn't even true.
[489] And if you talk to biologists, they will tell you exactly what I'm telling you.
[490] And it's interesting in a lot of these anti -trans bills for kids, intersex kids are specifically carved out.
[491] So in these bills, it says you can't commit, no general mutilation, no hormones, your kid must be the biological sex that they were born unless they are intersex.
[492] And then we must do genital surgery.
[493] We must prescribe hormones.
[494] We must enforce the binary.
[495] So that's, and I'm, if you think I'm being hyperbolic right now, not you or just anyone watching, like, do this research.
[496] Look up what intersex is.
[497] Can I ask you a really important question?
[498] that I've been mulling over in my head and I'm going to be on I think there'll be a lot of people that are mulling this question in their head which is how can I be a and I'm not even sure if this is the right word but how can I be a better ally?
[499] Um I think everyone needs to realize uh I think the ally talk is a little bit garbage because it ally implies that like this doesn't affect me but because I care about you I'm going to fight against this yeah but actually these trans this transphobia affects everyone like it affects everyone um it affects cisgender women.
[500] Um it affects cisgender women.
[501] Because, like, even now, like, there's little girls who, like, they're wanting to, like, there's this, like, little girls soccer team in Utah where this one team beat the other team and the parents of the kids who got beaten accused the other girls of being transgender.
[502] And they were, like, that's why they got beaten.
[503] So, like, as we start to, like, incentivize, you know, checking kids' genitals and checking, like, to make sure that you're who you say you are and, like, and really, like, villainize this idea of transness, it starts, like, it's going to affect everyone.
[504] Like, so if it doesn't affect you now, it's, like, We already lost our right to reproductive health care because the right to reproductive health care in the United States goes hand in hand with its bodily autonomy.
[505] So whether you're talking about determining what your body does reproductively or determining what your body does as far as your gender expression, like they go hand in hand.
[506] And it's all about control.
[507] So that control affects everyone.
[508] So I think we need to like, ally ship, I think is like, oh, like I'm going to do this.
[509] Like even though it doesn't affect me, I'm going to be your ally.
[510] At least that's how I feel about it.
[511] Like that's like how when I think of it, but really it's like we need people to understand that like if you're white racism, It doesn't affect you in the same way that it does for a person of color, but you shouldn't be like, I'm going to do you a solid and be an ally.
[512] You should do it.
[513] You should be in that fight because an injustice anywhere is an injustice everywhere, and it will affect you.
[514] And actually, the racism and the transphobia and the homophobia and the misogyny and the way that we are like so, like, don't talk about disabled people and what they need or people with disabilities, the disabled community is like all.
[515] this does is like keeps money in the most powerful people the most powerful people's hands like we all need to really come together and like like to me it's like the corporate greed like that's really what is like causing so much of this and then like corporate greed because so much of that is like made by Republicans they're like look over here it's trans people look over here it's gay people look over here it's it's um it's food stamps like they're being lazy like that's why you know those people are being lazy these people don't even work these people are fucking crazy with their trans their kids are running around like you don't I mean so it's just a lot of like smoke and mirrors now as far as hair care we're obsessed with Javian hair is definitely gorgeous can I just say can I just say on this your team said to me before you arrived they said we've we've worked with a few people but nobody's ever been so deeply obsessed in the product and been authentically obsessed in the product as you have so I've went through and I've had a little sample of all of them they are the most exquisitely exquisitely smelling products I've ever thank you have the wonderful of ingesting nasally well done I heard this is breaking records.
[516] Thanks.
[517] Um, pre -washed cup oil is amazing.
[518] Well, I think for me, I really love formulas.
[519] I love formulas that work on all hair types.
[520] Um, so for us, I'm really big on like the amount of product.
[521] Like if your hair is finer in density, you're going to use a little bit less.
[522] If your hair is quite thick in density, like a lot of hair per square inch, you're going to use a little bit more.
[523] Um, that's an amazing heat protectant right there that has niacinamide and charged lemon protein in it.
[524] So it's, it has no hold.
[525] So that's amazing for people who just like want to put a little bit of nourishment in their hair, but it also has great heat protection.
[526] Even if you don't style your hair with a blow dryer or a curling iron, you're still experiencing heat from your body heat in the sun.
[527] So it's just a great hair hydrator, but no hold.
[528] If you wanted for you, if you wanted to like bring out your waves a little bit, we don't have any air dry cream in there, but it's over there in the boat.
[529] Yeah, air dry cream, you could like put on your waves when your hair is wet and then like run your little like, I saw it's the foam.
[530] No, it's a cream, air dry cream.
[531] But you can like really like take that out with like your little wave brush and really just like get like bring out your waves um you could do like a sponge roller with that um i love our little air dry cream it's great for textured hair it's really great for like one eight through four c that's on damage that's great for anyone who's got like highlights heat damage swimming a lot you've sold me and i'm i can't wait for my head i hope you love it we'll send some to you and your partner oh we've got a huge bag here thank you so much you're so welcome we have a closing tradition where the last guest leaves a question for the yes who's your next one who's your next one what about your life do you think is abominable normal and why.
[532] Oh, okay.
[533] Um, whatever, hmm.
[534] Maybe like my five cats, three dogs and seven chickens.
[535] And that's like maybe more animals than most people have, but I get so much joy from my family.
[536] And I don't know if I really want human babies.
[537] I love my fur babies.
[538] So maybe that's, that's, I think why it's, my life is so fun.
[539] Do I get to ask the question of the next person?
[540] Yes.
[541] But do I get to know who the next person is?
[542] I just have to ask a random question as someone I don't even know.
[543] Yes, and also they'll be turned into cards that people will play with their families and stuff.
[544] Oh, fuck.
[545] So it can't be what's the sluggiest thing you're done.