Lin-Manuel Miranda

[0] Hi, my name is Lynn Manuel Miranda.

[1] And I feel great about being Conan O 'Brien's friend.

[2] You sort of messed up my last name.

[3] O 'Brien?

[4] It's O 'Brien.

[5] O 'Brien.

[6] I'm French.

[7] All is here, hear the yell, back to school, ring the bell, brand new shoes, walking loose, climb the fence, books and pens, I can tell that we are going to be friends.

[8] So I can tell that we are going to be friends.

[9] Hey there, and welcome to Conan O 'Brien Meads a Friend.

[10] This is the podcast that is, well, it's just a joy to do.

[11] I love doing it, where I get to talk to people I really admire.

[12] People I'd like to be my friend if they would agree to do so.

[13] And I'm always joined by two people who either add or detract.

[14] I'm not sure.

[15] We've done some internal investigation.

[16] we've found mostly negatives.

[17] But they're here, and what are you going to do?

[18] First is my assistant, Sonam of Sessian.

[19] Hi.

[20] How are you, Sona?

[21] You know, I got the giggles.

[22] You got the giggles.

[23] I do.

[24] I'm sorry.

[25] Matt and I have the giggles as well.

[26] Big time.

[27] Now, you guys laugh because you, let's get this out in the open.

[28] You laugh because sometimes I say, let's record the podcast, and then you think I take too long a pause before I say hello and welcome.

[29] Well, it's not like you come in and go, let's record the podcast.

[30] We're set to go, and you go, ready?

[31] And then it's like 60 seconds of silence, and we're sitting there.

[32] And it's so their anticipation.

[33] That's my method.

[34] Oh, it's good.

[35] It just makes us laugh.

[36] Do you think, it's almost like you think I'm setting the bar too high.

[37] I make everyone be quiet, and I like 60 seconds of pure silence.

[38] And then I lean into the mic dramatically and I say, hello there and welcome.

[39] Yeah, it's so casual.

[40] There's such a buildup for this.

[41] You know what I love is the disparity between the amount of time and preparation and silence and then just, well, hi, how are you?

[42] It's Brian, there's nothing.

[43] It reminds me when my, like, parents would pray at a dinner table and you're not supposed to laugh at that moment, you know.

[44] Right.

[45] So you laugh when other people are observing God?

[46] Is that what you do?

[47] You find that laughable when others thank a higher power for what they have in their life?

[48] No, just how you're not supposed to laugh at that moment.

[49] Sure, yeah.

[50] I guess we all chuckle with that for gratitude.

[51] You're a terrible man, Gourley.

[52] Terrible.

[53] Let's pray.

[54] Let's pray.

[55] Sona, you look nice today.

[56] You're wearing a nice summary dress.

[57] You do look nice.

[58] Yeah, it's like a peasant dress.

[59] It's like a long...

[60] It's like a bohemian dress.

[61] It's very flowy and comfortable.

[62] Is that an Armenian...

[63] What I'm saying is that some...

[64] No, no, this is a question.

[65] Why is that watch it?

[66] This is me asking you, do you...

[67] Are there clothes, is there clothing?

[68] Why is this me watch it?

[69] You know why.

[70] No, I don't know why.

[71] I'm asking, I'm curious about your culture.

[72] I have taken you to Armenia.

[73] Did I not?

[74] You did.

[75] Okay.

[76] I took you to Armenia.

[77] We did a great show there.

[78] I'm just curious.

[79] Do you have any clothes that are Armenian that you put on for your parents to celebrate Armenia?

[80] And then, and I would wear it to a podcast recording.

[81] I don't know.

[82] Is that what you're asking me?

[83] Yeah.

[84] I just, I looked at that long, flowy dress and I thought maybe that's, uh, Armenian.

[85] No, this is not traditional Armenian clothing.

[86] This is just a dress.

[87] Right.

[88] That's just like A & Taylor or B. Dalton's or...

[89] What is happening?

[90] I'm taking a stab at.

[91] I don't know any dress names, but I'm just...

[92] A bookstore.

[93] I just went for it.

[94] What is that?

[95] You know, raspberries or...

[96] I mean, I just...

[97] So B. Dalton is...

[98] Yeah, that's a bookstore.

[99] I don't know anything about what people...

[100] Oh, my God, that's good.

[101] Is this sharper image sweater you got on?

[102] What's that?

[103] Is that a Black and Decker?

[104] What is that?

[105] It's like GameStop t -shirt.

[106] I'm just curious.

[107] I don't know.

[108] I don't know.

[109] But I think Ann Taylor might have been right.

[110] Ann Taylor was right.

[111] You know why I know Ann Taylor?

[112] Do you know why I know Ann Taylor?

[113] Why?

[114] Because I remembered when I was in college once and I heard two girls fighting like through the next, you know, through the, it was a thin wall in college.

[115] and I heard these two girls who were roommates fighting and one had more money than the other and the one that was poor was saying, I can't afford all the nice things you have.

[116] I can't get dresses from Anne Taylor.

[117] And I just remembered that being drilled into my head.

[118] I didn't even know.

[119] And to this day when someone, the name Ann Taylor comes up, I think, Ann Taylor.

[120] I couldn't get books from B. Dalton.

[121] Right.

[122] I couldn't get tools in black and dagger.

[123] So, well, I'm...

[124] Yeah, Anne Taylor's too classy for me. I don't wear Aunt Taylor.

[125] Yeah.

[126] And Gorley, you look, you look nice.

[127] You do.

[128] You dress very nicely.

[129] Thank you.

[130] You're wearing sort of a light summer suit.

[131] It's nice.

[132] It's very...

[133] It's not true.

[134] It is true.

[135] It's a light...

[136] It's a light...

[137] It's the suit that Atticus Finch wore...

[138] Gregory Peck wore.

[139] Yeah.

[140] It's a three -piece.

[141] It's nice.

[142] No, no. Often, you can't picture Gorley, but he's often dressed as sort of a genteel southern lawyer in the 1940s.

[143] Yeah.

[144] Ladies and gentlemen of the jury.

[145] Yeah.

[146] I come in.

[147] Yeah.

[148] I do wish I had a searsucker suit, though.

[149] I know you mock me for these kind of things, but that's one that I'll wear.

[150] Do you have a pipe?

[151] You look like a guy that might have a pipe.

[152] The only reason I have a pipe is...

[153] Do you have a pipe?

[154] Wait.

[155] Wait.

[156] Do you have a pipe?

[157] Wait.

[158] Answer the question first.

[159] Yes.

[160] You have a pipe?

[161] It was my grandfather's pipe.

[162] Oh, sure.

[163] Yeah.

[164] Of course it was your grandfather's pipe.

[165] You have a pipe.

[166] I knew it.

[167] Doesn't he look like he has a pipe?

[168] It's my grandfather's pipe.

[169] It was given to me. I didn't go get it on a quest.

[170] What do you mean your grandfather's pipe?

[171] It was something that was in your grandfather's mouth and it was given to you?

[172] Yeah, but that's like the same as getting like your grandfather's flask.

[173] Or his teeth.

[174] Oh, I wish.

[175] Have you ever smoked out of it?

[176] No. Oh, come on.

[177] Are you going to?

[178] I've never smoked a pipe like a, you know, a pipe pipe.

[179] You will, you will.

[180] You know.

[181] Yeah, what you got there now?

[182] Well, I was just thinking.

[183] He's smiley now.

[184] The look on Sona's face is like, do he want to go down there?

[185] Gorley's getting a little smiley, which usually means trouble.

[186] Which got there, Gorley.

[187] Nothing.

[188] He almost went for his gun, but he didn't draw.

[189] No, I didn't.

[190] Coward.

[191] Okay.

[192] I'm excited about today's show.

[193] Sona's wearing her Armenian dress.

[194] Gourley is wearing a white sear sucker suit, and he's fanning himself.

[195] Oh, my.

[196] My guest this week, I'm very excited about.

[197] They don't get much bigger than this, I got to tell you.

[198] That's right.

[199] No. My guess this week has, what did you say?

[200] I agreed with you.

[201] I said, nope.

[202] Oh, I think you said no. I did say no. They don't get much bigger than that.

[203] No. Okay.

[204] They don't not get bigger.

[205] What's that?

[206] Double negative?

[207] Not even.

[208] They don't not.

[209] Not even, don't not get no bigger.

[210] My guess this week has won an Emmy, a Grammy, a Tony, a Poetzer Prize.

[211] What else can you win?

[212] Podcast Award.

[213] There aren't any.

[214] He's an actor, composer, playwright, and producer.

[215] He's also the creator of one of the most successful musicals of all -time Hamilton.

[216] If you don't know who he is by now, you're a fool.

[217] He's currently working on the movie adaptation of his hit musical in the Heights.

[218] We are thrilled that we are joined today by the brilliant Lynn.

[219] Manuel Miranda.

[220] Welcome, sir.

[221] I've been looking forward to talking to you on the podcast because we have so much in common.

[222] Indeed.

[223] We are both the sons of Puerto Rican parents.

[224] Indeed.

[225] And we both wrote Hamilton.

[226] And in that way, I'm surprised we haven't really talked before.

[227] It's weird.

[228] It's a little weird that we haven't talked.

[229] My Hamilton, I wrote first.

[230] It was not successful.

[231] I then wrote a musical about Hamilton Fish, the Secretary of State in the late 1890s.

[232] That went nowhere.

[233] It went nowhere.

[234] It went nowhere.

[235] And I tried rapping.

[236] That was a mistake.

[237] Sona, you can tell.

[238] I try rapping every now and then.

[239] It's awful.

[240] Okay, that's enough.

[241] It is the worst.

[242] rapping I've ever heard.

[243] It's so bad.

[244] I mean, you asked her to jump in and she jumped in.

[245] Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[246] I immediately regretted it.

[247] I immediately at the at the ready.

[248] Awful rapping.

[249] One of the things that I immediately struck when I met you is you have such a great sense of humor and you're so funny and I realized that that's a skill you probably developed when you were a kid.

[250] Yeah.

[251] Because that's what has to happen.

[252] It's a survival instinct.

[253] It's, yes.

[254] And this is a, I thought this would be a good starting off point, which is when you're growing up and your kid and your instant.

[255] secure, at least that was my situation, and then you realize, wait, I do have this one thing.

[256] I'm going to see what it's worth and develop it.

[257] What was that like for you?

[258] Yeah, for me, it was, it was interesting.

[259] I got, I sort of won the lotto when I was five.

[260] I got into this, like, magnet public school called Hunter for smart kids.

[261] And I walked in there and realized, oh, these kids are a lot smarter than me. I went from like a nursery school uptown where I was the only kid who knew how to read.

[262] And I would like have like quiet time while I had like my own playtime while they were all learning cat bat at and I was like, I'm over here putting on a show for myself.

[263] Yeah, I'm Einstein because I know how to say cat and bat.

[264] Exactly.

[265] And then I went to this school where you know, I remember telemoodic discussions on the existence of Santa Claus and like literally I have this memory of like a six -year -old being like what's so unrealistic about a guy who helps people and gets them presents and maybe it's not one guy, but like really like doing like a hardcore justification.

[266] Fascinating.

[267] This guy's making some good points.

[268] Yeah.

[269] And I realize that like being funny is like the only currency to keep up when you are like sort of treading water to stay afloat, I think intellectually.

[270] I was like, oh, but I can be funny.

[271] And that's the only currency that matters among smart kids.

[272] I found out earlier, I was interested in girls early on.

[273] but I had no skills in any other department.

[274] It was literally going through a checklist of athlete, no. You know, I'm this, I'm super good looking and, you know, no. I was going through the list and it was just no, no, no, no, no. Sense of humor, so I doubled down on that.

[275] And I found that that was sort of my way of trying to have some game.

[276] But then, of course, whenever a girl was slightly interested, I didn't know what to do.

[277] You know, I don't know if you used it.

[278] I mean, do you have good game?

[279] Did you have game back in the day with the ladies?

[280] I mean, I know.

[281] I was a theater kid.

[282] I mean, theater kid, again, it's similar to what you said in terms of like finding your lane and doubling down on it.

[283] And for me, that was theater.

[284] We had sort of the sixth grade play, which was every kind of grade had to be in this musical, even if you did not care at all about musicals.

[285] And I think they ran out of eight.

[286] appropriate musicals by the time I reached sixth grade.

[287] So we did 20 -minute versions of Oklahoma, bye -bye Bertie, Peter Pan, a mashup of the Wizard of Oz and the Wiz, West Side Story, and Fiddler on the roof.

[288] And I got cast as Conrad Bertie.

[289] And I don't know if you're familiar with that show.

[290] By -bye, By -Burdy, yeah.

[291] That's, he's Elvis.

[292] And so, like, suddenly all, I'm 12 years old and three feet even.

[293] And suddenly all the girls and boys have to faint when I sing.

[294] Like, it's in the script that they paint.

[295] And I was like, well, why would anyone do anything else for a living?

[296] It's fantastic.

[297] What was your Elvis like at that age?

[298] I had the curled lip down.

[299] I like, I remember, I don't know if you did this, but like, I remember working on my facial expressions because I was like, I'm going to be an actor one day.

[300] And I'll need to know all of them.

[301] I thought the more facial expressions you had, the better an actor you were.

[302] And so I remember like literally holding my lip in place until I could develop the muscles that curled it.

[303] Oh, wow.

[304] You are curling it amazing.

[305] well right now.

[306] Like there's fishing line attached to the end of your lift.

[307] That's crazy.

[308] That is a sixth grade, before sixth grade summer honed skill.

[309] Same with the eyebrow.

[310] Same with the arched eyebrow.

[311] Like I remember holding it in place until I knew what muscles kept it up.

[312] That's intense.

[313] I was a very lonely child.

[314] So you walked around for a while.

[315] You walked around for a while as Elvis thinking this is going to work.

[316] Yeah.

[317] And I got cast as that part.

[318] And then the fact that like girls I had crushes on, girls who had never knew I existed, it had to faint.

[319] There was 40 kids in my class.

[320] And I'm going, if you're really sincere, and I'd move my hips, and then they would fall.

[321] If you're real sincere.

[322] And I was like, this is the greatest moment of my life.

[323] And it's in the script.

[324] Right.

[325] And then sadly, you left the auditorium and was trying it on real people.

[326] Yeah, it didn't work so well.

[327] You have epilepsy.

[328] He has epilepsy.

[329] Get him some medicine.

[330] He's going to be okay.

[331] But then, but that was my lane.

[332] And so I started auditioning for shows in middle school in high school.

[333] And I think being a theater kid is like, it's such a, it's such a magic bullet in high school because you get to meet friends from different grades.

[334] So like the drama of your grade, you can take a break from it.

[335] You can go, oh, I can go hang out with my older friends who I was in a play with.

[336] Or I could like hang out with these younger friends because the world is feeling too real.

[337] And so, and then you learn to collaborate.

[338] You learn to like make something bigger than yourself and all that's.

[339] stuff.

[340] The issue I had, and I think it hurt me when I sort of experimented or dabbled it all in theater, was my only interest was in being funny.

[341] And I was always thought, I'm really impressed with people that you can do both.

[342] You know what I mean?

[343] I know you can be, you can be really funny, but you can also access real emotions.

[344] And I thought, well, I just, I don't know, that's, that's, I cannot do it.

[345] Couldn't do it if you put a gun to my head.

[346] Really?

[347] Yeah.

[348] I can't.

[349] I'm a broken man. Well, this is over.

[350] That's all I really wanted to do was get you in here and tell you that there's a piece missing in me and now it's your problem now you have to...

[351] I'll carry that around for the rest of my life.

[352] The rest of your life.

[353] You've said that songs can...

[354] And this is...

[355] A lot of people say that songs affect them, music affects them, but even as a little kid, there's certain songs that you could hear and you would become openly emotional.

[356] Yeah.

[357] Bridge over troubled water or something like you.

[358] Yeah, my parents tell the story that that would play and I would just as a baby I would like burst into tears.

[359] Bridge over troubled water.

[360] I remember being devastated at Stevie Wonders I just called to say I love you, which is a nice song.

[361] It's a ballad.

[362] But if you listen to the lyrics and you're, think of it from a little kid's perspective.

[363] No New Year's Day.

[364] What?

[365] To celebrate.

[366] No like candy.

[367] Like no, no first of spring.

[368] What?

[369] No song to sing.

[370] In fact, it's just another ordinary day.

[371] Oh, fuck.

[372] And then, like, I couldn't make it to the turn where it's like, but I love you.

[373] Right.

[374] No, you couldn't get that far.

[375] It's all over.

[376] And I would just burst into tears at no New Year's Day.

[377] I started a three -year -old in the corner eating, drinking gin and crying.

[378] Yeah.

[379] It's just a list of, like, shit going away.

[380] It's like Twitter today.

[381] You know, it's funny, too, is that you don't, yeah, you don't.

[382] Also, I don't think a lot of kids, I mean, I wasn't even aware of listening to lyrics that intent.

[383] Like, you were really listening to the lyrics.

[384] I think so.

[385] I think a lot of times I wasn't.

[386] I wasn't listening to lyrics so much as just singing the song.

[387] And the song could be horribly sad, but if I like the melody, I was just like, hey, ha, ha, ha, ha.

[388] And then I would happily sing a song about, you know, people starving to death in Ireland.

[389] Right.

[390] And in a sort of chipper.

[391] Well, I mean, some of the happiest, the most joy songs to sing are deadly depressing Irish drinking songs where, like, the content is like, wait a minute.

[392] What are we singing about?

[393] Right.

[394] And that's a thing in Latin music, too, that I love.

[395] Sometimes it'll be, like, the bounciest, happiest meeting in the world.

[396] But it's actually a song about, like, the terrible medical condition.

[397] in the Dominican Republic.

[398] And you're like, wait a minute.

[399] I just stopped shaking my hips and listen to the words for the first time.

[400] This tune is burning up the charts.

[401] No, I'm gonna make goes to square.

[402] What?

[403] That's fantastic.

[404] Something that I also am very fascinated by is the concept, and I've talked about it before on the podcast, but this very popular and kind of hackneyed concept that great work comes from suffering and depression, and I have always, battled with that because I've thought, really?

[405] I used to really believe in probably in a Catholic way that I needed to suffer a lot and feel terrible in order to make something good.

[406] Yeah, I'm a recovering Catholic too.

[407] I know that sentiment very well.

[408] But I know you're aware of the sentiment, but I do feel like a lot of great, you've produced a lot of great work and that it hasn't necessarily come from a miserable place for you.

[409] Is that right?

[410] Well, I think that there's two different things.

[411] There is accessing what you need to access to create your work, and that can come from the saddest part of you, the angriest part of you.

[412] And then there's the working conditions under which you're creating this work.

[413] And I think that's where we confuse things.

[414] You know, I think that when I realized Hamilton was what I was going to write about and I was stuck with him and his ghost was going to haunt me until I wrote it whole out, I realized I was going to have to go to some very dark places with inside myself to find the things to write that story.

[415] And you can look at that as an opportunity.

[416] Oh, like, I can have an affair, but I don't really have to have an affair.

[417] and fuck up my marriage, but I can write about it and write about the guilt of that and how horrible that feels, losing a child.

[418] I mean, all the worst things happen to Hamilton, in addition to some wonderful things that happen.

[419] And you can access that in a safe way if you're writing about it.

[420] You can go there emotionally.

[421] You can figure out what that feels like and then write it down.

[422] I think where a lot of artists get confused is they think that they need to literally suffer.

[423] Yes.

[424] You can go, you know, this is where I'm very grateful that my mom was a psychologist and realized I was doing this no matter what because she not only sort of gave me the it's all grist for the mill speech a million times as a kid like oh you're sad like good remember how this feels you're going to be a writer right so you're going to have to access this again someday and like kind of peppering that in and she also used that to get me to do shit I didn't want to do like no you're going to take out the trash you're a writer right you're going to have to know how this feels take out the fucking trash um so it also became a way of getting me do things I didn't want to do as a child.

[425] You're going to go to the 7 -Eleven and you're going to take that payday bar.

[426] Because you need to know what it's like to steal.

[427] Now go do it.

[428] Yeah, now go feel alive.

[429] Bring mommy your payday.

[430] But the other part of that is I think people all, there's this myth of creative tension creating great art too.

[431] And I think that's horseshit.

[432] I get really stressed out and sad and eat when I am in a situation where I'm fighting with my collaborators.

[433] I feel really lucky that I found Tommy Cale who really believes that like we don't have to kill ourselves in each other to make great art. Like we can just get in the room and have spirited debate to be sure, but like make the same thing and like just get marching in the same order.

[434] And I think that's, I think a lot of people bring that myth to destructive ends in their work.

[435] I think a lot of it too, frankly, is people that have ability, have talent, but they happen to mean miserable people.

[436] And that doesn't really have anything to do with their ability to create.

[437] And so the two get conflated.

[438] So people say, well, he's a terrible asshole and a misanthrope, but he wrote a great musical.

[439] What's the great Lorne Michael's joke that he always tells?

[440] Like, you know, the patient is sick.

[441] My brother thinks he's a chicken.

[442] I would take him to the hospital, but I need the eggs.

[443] I need the eggs, yeah.

[444] Right.

[445] Which is, you know, can justify all manner of bad behavior.

[446] Right.

[447] And I think that is something that I don't know.

[448] I've been like on a personal crusade to to people can do good work and be nice and should be expected to be nice and if they're not nice you need to tell them hey that wasn't very nice well I wouldn't I'd have someone do it and if they didn't do it I'd tear him a new asshole you found out that rhyming was your superpower I rhyme all the time but I'd say it's horrible it's terrible right sona yes yeah he does some of the worst raps I've ever heard.

[449] I don't know if I mentioned that yet.

[450] Yeah, you said, okay.

[451] You can take a really great song and just ruin it.

[452] I love, and I love to do it.

[453] Were you like a Tom Lear, Weird Al guy growing up?

[454] Did you like parody music?

[455] Because Weird Al was really essential for me. Yeah, yeah.

[456] I know Weird Al was huge for you.

[457] I'm a bit older.

[458] I wasn't as much into Weird Al and into parody songs when I was a kid.

[459] But I loved, I can't remember lyrics, but I love to sing.

[460] you know comically and so I just make up my own lyrics and I've always done it and I don't I will happily sing like a song that's you know like whatever number one on the music charts but I absolutely have no idea what the lyrics are but doesn't stop me and I'll rhyme I'll work in B Foujou and Superman and all this stuff that's just random much I've never heard that word said out loud before I've only read it on menus Bfajouz yeah I always say what are you going to do?

[461] My favorite food in the cafeteria is beef, how's ju.

[462] And, I mean, these songs are just absolutely stupid, and I sing them with great conviction and drive people around me insane.

[463] But you realized early on, you call rhyme one of your superpowers.

[464] Like, you figured out, like, as kind of a power that you had.

[465] Yeah, well, it was, but, like, one I worked really hard at.

[466] Like I said, like, Woodout was my guy.

[467] Like, I remember loving the Michael Jackson song bad and then hearing the Weird Al song, fat, and be like, this sounds exactly like the other song, but it's funnier.

[468] Like, if so facto, this is a better song.

[469] Michael Jackson missed an opportunity here.

[470] Yeah, I mean, he teed it up, but Weird Al knocked it out.

[471] And that's kind of how I feel about half to two -thirds of Weird Al's parody.

[472] I'm like, yeah, I probably, I've still never heard the kinks as Lola.

[473] I've only heard Yoda.

[474] I can't imagine Lola will surpass it.

[475] That's just kind of wrong.

[476] But I think I always, I really enjoyed.

[477] one, I think when you grow up loving weird owl, you learn that genre is fluid and that like you can work in any genre and that's just instrumentation and you learn to love different kinds of music because he parodies lots of different kinds of music.

[478] And also you just learn to have fun with words.

[479] Like you fall in love with words and how they sit on music and how the right words and the right place can be fucking hilarious.

[480] Right.

[481] So that was, you know, I'm really grateful for that.

[482] But the rhyming thing, I'm also like a little younger than hip -hop music.

[483] There was never a time it didn't.

[484] exist in my life.

[485] And so, you know, I was listening to it constantly growing up.

[486] And then it's funny, like musical theater and hip -hop see rhyme fundamentally differently.

[487] Like hip -hop C -slant rhyme and the unexpected rhyme as like, that's like the win.

[488] If like you don't go moon -June, you do some crazy other word, it's like, ah, whereas like, you know, if you have it even slightly off -rime musical theater purists, we'll be like, well, that's not a pure rhyme.

[489] And yet...

[490] It's not Moon June.

[491] They expect Moon June.

[492] Yeah, but also, like, I think that what musical theater purists have right is that when it comes to, like, humor, a pure rhyme will, like, land a punchline better than, like, a off rhyme.

[493] Like, if it's an off rhyme, you're like, eh, you didn't really get it.

[494] But, like, you know, I just saw Kiss Me Kate yesterday, and that brush up your Shakespeare in the way Cole Porter fucks with words to make rhymes with Troilus and Cressida.

[495] I mean, there's so much joy in that in making it really rhyme.

[496] I've thought more about this than most people and I'm rambling now.

[497] No, I think it's I'm going to check my notes but I think it's paid off for you.

[498] Yes, it has.

[499] Yes, I see that you've had some success, it says here.

[500] You know, you talk about these different songs that mean different things to you and you, one of them is under pressure the collaboration between David Bowie and Queen.

[501] And I'm curious, like, what is it particularly about that song that gets to you?

[502] Is it the way it's...

[503] Because I've always had an observation about that song and a friend of mine and I were talking about it not long ago and we were...

[504] The beginning, early part of that song the stuff Freddie Mercury is doing is borderline insane.

[505] Yeah.

[506] You know?

[507] There's no reason it should work.

[508] Yes, yes.

[509] And it is...

[510] It's like an accidental miracle of that song.

[511] Right, right.

[512] And the more you read about it, the more you realize they were just fucking around in the studio until they got it.

[513] I didn't know that.

[514] I don't even know that right now.

[515] And, well, again, my first introduction was Vanilla Ice's Ice Baby to that, basically.

[516] I was working at Sound Out Live when Vanilla Ice Came on and did Ice Ice Baby.

[517] And I remembered writers saying, this is terrible.

[518] It's this white punk co -opting.

[519] And I said, guys, guys, give him a chance.

[520] He may be the formative artist.

[521] He flows like a harpoon daily and nightly.

[522] Flowing like a harpoon.

[523] That's what he does.

[524] It's what he does.

[525] But I remember it sounding to people like, maybe he's going to be like the formative.

[526] Oh, no. No, he's just, no. We won't, we'll see him again in a reality show.

[527] It was that and Ninja Turtles too, and then that was that.

[528] But yeah, so I knew the baseline first.

[529] And then I heard the song for the first time, and I just burst into tears every time the David Bowie song.

[530] And I think it's because the beginning sounds, I've thought about it a lot.

[531] So do you really want like an intent?

[532] I do.

[533] That's what we're here for.

[534] Yeah.

[535] Okay, so first of all, you're right.

[536] Freddie Mercury is literally going do -do -do -b -b -b -b -b -b -b -b -b -b -b -h.

[537] Like, it's straight -up scatting.

[538] But he's also saying, but -a -b -b -b -bub.

[539] And then he goes, okay.

[540] And you're like, what?

[541] And I literally thought, like, when he goes, okay, I'm like, if I was the sound engineer, I'd be like, okay, we're taking that out.

[542] Yeah, but he says, people on the streets.

[543] And so, okay, that's been established.

[544] People on the streets.

[545] I don't know what that means and what context.

[546] Are they marching?

[547] Are they sleeping there?

[548] Right.

[549] But he says it really early.

[550] So by the time, Bowie comes in at the end, it's a reprise.

[551] Ah, okay.

[552] You're actually, he's actually, he's actually what he wrote in that section, because love such an old -fashioned word and loved it.

[553] That's fantastic, by the way.

[554] It's, he's actually talking about what you've been hearing the whole song.

[555] Yes.

[556] And that, like, it's about people on the margins of society, and it's about, like, living and surviving under that pressure.

[557] And he brings it all together in this crazy.

[558] cascading ascending melody that doesn't seem to end like you think it's going to end and it doesn't love dares you to are you don't care for the people on the are we done edge of the night so we're now at the people of the edge of the night we know what they were singing about in the beginning and love dares you to care you know it's like and it just keeps going and it builds up all of this and so it just wrecks me every time because it starts so innocuously Well, I responded to this because I saw that that was an important song for you, and I have these lists of songs that I can access when I run, when I'm running on a treadmill, and if I really want to crank it up, and I am done, I mean, I've run for 40 minutes, I'm really tired, I've been running pretty hard, I will access that song.

[559] I will access that song on my Spotify, and suddenly that song starts, and I have superhuman powers.

[560] Yeah.

[561] Because of that song.

[562] and it's big, what you're talking about, that ascending, incessant, it's growing, it's growing, and I've found sometimes I'm like, look down when I'm done, when the song is over and my heart rate is like 198, you know?

[563] People are resuscitating me with paddles.

[564] I don't want to give it all to Bowie, too, because also Freddie Mercury is singing, why don't we give love one more chance, like, as if, like, tomorrow is not coming, there's something so powerful about that, about the vocalist, and that leading into the final Bowie thesis that is like, it's this like raw emotion and then this, like, brilliant intellect on this ascending melody that's just, how'd they get there from dung, dung, dung, dung, dung.

[565] Yeah.

[566] Like, how'd they get from dung, dung, to that?

[567] It's like a little symphony in one pop song.

[568] It's crazy.

[569] It's the beginning part.

[570] Yeah.

[571] I've ever heard the isolated vocal?

[572] There's a you two of just the isolated vocals and it just...

[573] Oh, no, I haven't.

[574] It's amazing.

[575] You'll be so happy.

[576] It's amazing.

[577] You've heard it.

[578] I'm sorry.

[579] I'm jumping in again.

[580] It's amazing.

[581] You're terrible at rapping and it is amazing.

[582] My two contributions.

[583] Coden's terrible or rapping in those isolated vocals.

[584] Thanks for mentioning that again.

[585] Sona, we're going to take a quick break and just make very little money.

[586] We'll be right back.

[587] Hey, okay.

[588] We're back.

[589] Yeah, I think you were worried about going into under pressure because you thought this is going to get too intense.

[590] And I have found in my brief time on this earth, very young, that when people are talking about something they're passionate, about, you always get good stuff.

[591] And it can be, you might think, well, do we really want a deep dive on this?

[592] No. But also, it's thoughts that I have never really said out loud.

[593] It's the thoughts I've had when I'm listening to Under Pressure on the Run, like when I'm like, rewinding it and be like, why is this making me cry?

[594] Because I think it's important to examine that.

[595] I think as an artist, it's important to look at the things you love and, like, the art that you think is total shit, being like, why do I hate this so much?

[596] Like, I think is, again, if you cultivate that part of your brain, that's like, you find your own taste.

[597] And I think that's the hardest part.

[598] Here's one of the problems with it is that I sometimes get too much into watching things I hate to take it apart and realizing that I'm picking it a scab.

[599] You know, the famous hate watching and, hey, let's hate watch this.

[600] Isn't it awful?

[601] Isn't it terrible?

[602] And then I do think that if there isn't indeed an afterlife, the first thing they do is show you how much of it your life you spent hate watching something.

[603] You know what I mean?

[604] As like a damning, like you realize you watch the original oceans 11 150 times just because some of the edits are so poor right you're like I know I shouldn't have done that I apologize but yeah Frank Sinatra the reason I some of the things fascinate me and my brother Luke is that Frank Sinatra ran the set and he just wanted to be done when he was done and he had the director had no power over him so literally there are moments It's all first takes and there's moments in a wood movie there's a there's moments where Joey Bishop will say his line out of order he'll start to say his line realize that he's saying it in the wrong order someone else then says their line then he re -says his line and they kept it in the film because when they were done they were like Frank was like we're done we're out and then someone would say well Frank we actually need to I said we're out well you know what's so delicious about that is when he did guys and dolls Brando knew that about him and Brando would fuck up on purpose just to make him because he wasn't at the point he wasn't at Ocean's 11 rat pack era yet he was still like young skinny Frank and he had to work within the system and Brando's a huge star and Brando's a huge star and he wanted to play Sky Masterson but they gave him Nathan Detroit so watch the scene when he's like they're trying to do the bet of the cider versus the strudel Snacho wants to kill Brando because Brenda's like I fucked that up going to do the gun like he's doing it's like I don't remember the line I'm so sorry Frank and Frank is just like his like eyes are bulging out of his head the whole scene.

[605] You know what amazes me about that movie is when you're watching the great scene, come on, you're rocking the boat.

[606] Yeah, yeah, Stubby K, sit down your rock in the boat and you're watching that.

[607] Frank Sinatra is in the background.

[608] I know.

[609] When else you're going to see Frank Sinatra in the background as one of 30 people doing a supporting chorus part?

[610] And that's one of the things that just blows me away about But that was a moment in time when you could put Frank Sinatra, who was a huge star.

[611] But because Brando's in the film and everyone needs to service this incredible musical, he gets stuck.

[612] Hey, Frank, you're in the background and you're just playing support.

[613] For kids who have no idea what the fuck we're talking about, it's like that one scene in end game where they're all standing there.

[614] You're like, holy cow, this is an expensive scene for them all to be in frame.

[615] These are all big stars in their own right.

[616] And there's Frank Sinatra just like sitting up and sitting sitting and standing.

[617] in time.

[618] And for those of you who don't know who Frank Sinatra is, you know, there's a Pikachu.

[619] Help me out here.

[620] How do I get this?

[621] Squirtle.

[622] Are you talking about Detective Pikachu?

[623] Sure, yeah.

[624] Oh.

[625] And you're using that to tell people about Frank Sinatra.

[626] I'm trying to, as Lynn Manuel is doing, I'm trying to bring it into the...

[627] Just say he was famous.

[628] You know, in Fortnight, you know, when you're in a hang glider and you've got the machine gun.

[629] Stop.

[630] That's sort of Frank Sinatra.

[631] Detective Pikachu is basically the man with a golden arm.

[632] Let's break down most 20th century pop culture this way.

[633] So I had the pleasure of talking to Michelle Obama a couple of times.

[634] And recently, she was on the podcast.

[635] And I just love this moment I asked her about it.

[636] I don't think we talked about it on the podcast.

[637] But when you performed at the White House and you performed, you were working on Hamilton and you performed for the Obamas and she said now what is this about and you pretty much said well it's a it's a rap musical multicultural exploration of Ron Chernaus Hamilton book I don't think I said it like that I'm putting a little mustard on the ball but you said that and she was like yeah good luck with that and I just I love you pitching it to the coolest couple in America and they're like okay good luck yeah and I love too that you had to, when you announced what it was, people thought it was a joke and you had to say, please just hear me out.

[638] You hear, I mean, the 10th anniversary of me performing that was like on Sunday, so a lot of people posted it online and I watched it again recently.

[639] I don't think there is more footage of me being frightened or footage of me being more frightened than I was in that moment because you see me introduce it, everyone laughs, and I scream, you laugh, but it's true!

[640] In a Milhausian voice And I'm suddenly like I really The whole time I'm performing it I'm looking around for like the Apollo Sandman To sweep me off the stage I'd never perform that song in public Only my wife and Alex Lackmore My accompanist had heard the song But I also thought If it doesn't work in this room I'll like put it in a drawer And I'll try something else Who tries something out for the first time In front of the president and the first lady Who does that?

[641] Conrad Birdie It was also They said We'd love for you to perform something From In The Heights Which is my first show I said Unless you have something On the American experience And I did So I was like I mean if these 16 bars About Alexander Hamilton Don't work here And really that's all it was Then maybe this is dumb Maybe this is a dumb idea But I thought they worked I thought they were some of my best writing And I just needed to get out in front of it And then it worked really well So you left that room knowing, okay, I got this, I've got it.

[642] Yeah, it really, I mean, basically what has happened with the show happened in miniature in that room.

[643] It went like, oh my God, this kid's crazy to like wrapped attention on the story because the story is compelling.

[644] You know, it doesn't need mustard on the ball for me to be compelling, but it's like, oh, I didn't know all that happened to Alexander Hamilton.

[645] Oh, you're the guy who shot him and you're in.

[646] And so I watched that happen in miniature And what's you know This is a part of the story I don't tell often But then like I got made fun of on the Daily Show the next day Yeah Like John Stewart was like did like a bit about like spoken word poetry And he did the like you know like that And like just like and like it was the first You know I love the daily show And it was the first time I've been on the other side of a clip Where they literally show me going My name is Alexander Hamilton And they cut to John Stewart And like enormous laughter So, like, the laughter part of it got amplified.

[647] That clip should be burned.

[648] But he's very apologetic after he saw the show many, many years later.

[649] But it was also, but I knew what happened in the room.

[650] So that didn't deter me. Like, it hurt to be a punchline on TV, but I was like, I know what the song did in the room.

[651] I know what that chemical reaction was.

[652] Yes.

[653] And that was enough to keep me writing.

[654] You know, that was the performance at the White House was such a rare case of like, I'd only written that one song.

[655] I didn't have a second Hamilton song to show anyone.

[656] It was just that opportunity happened, and I presented it at that opportunity.

[657] But, you know, to continue writing, it was, again, you're trying to please the room you're in and you're trying to make sure it feels good in that room because you can't anticipate what the world's going to think.

[658] You just have no control over that.

[659] I think this is hard for people to understand sometimes, but you can't be thinking about when you're creating Hamilton or you're creating anything, You just have to, if you get into that space of making that thing, you cannot lose your mind over how is this going to look on a billboard in Times Square.

[660] How is this going to look, you know, how is this going to look when it's blown up, you know, 150 ,000 times?

[661] You have to just stay in the thing.

[662] And now I sound like David Mamet, but you have to stay in the thing and just do it.

[663] And the only stuff, that's all I've ever done is just get in a little space, make something, and then later on, it's an abstraction that, no, no, I got, people saw it on YouTube, people saw it on television, people saw it wherever they saw it, they saw it in China, they saw it someplace, and they liked it.

[664] That's an abstraction.

[665] You have to just stick into that, in that thing.

[666] And I think a lot of people, a lot of young people who say would be very influenced by you, they sometimes put the, I want to be famous first.

[667] And if that's the goal, I'm sure you've had many people say that to you.

[668] They're interested in the fame part.

[669] They're interested in what they see that you got.

[670] And they don't realize that you started from this very insular small place.

[671] And that was not the goal.

[672] Yeah, no, absolutely.

[673] And do you also, listen, musicals just take too fucking long.

[674] Like, if you want to get famous, like, don't write musicals.

[675] That's a bad return on your investment.

[676] They take about five to seven years and one in five make their money back.

[677] Maybe that's probably a high figure.

[678] That seems very high.

[679] That's probably generous.

[680] So you have to be okay with this thing closing on opening night.

[681] You have to be okay enough with what you're making that you're like, all right, if this closes opening night, I got better at what I know how to do.

[682] I'm really proud of what we made.

[683] I learned something.

[684] Like, you have to have reasons that are, because you have no control over the rest of it.

[685] You only have control over the thing you are creating.

[686] One of the sort of main messages or ideas behind Hamilton is the legacy of what you leave behind.

[687] and that's clearly something that resonates with you.

[688] No New Year's Day.

[689] And originally that was, you actually did jam that into Hamilton and then you got into some copyright issues.

[690] It was good that they got involved and they took it out.

[691] And then under pressure was in Hamilton for a while.

[692] Remember when Hamilton was under all that pressure to form a centralized bank?

[693] Absolutely.

[694] And then he went, Buh -da -up, that day!

[695] Yeah, I replaced that with non -stop.

[696] but yeah I do think something about this sounds quaint sometimes when you try and talk about it but I've always been obsessed with having a body of work like here's some stuff I made that's mine and I think I can honestly say that's all I ever wanted it's nice to be able to have people in a restaurant say you look taller in person you know I guess and get a reservation but most of it the gravy is that It's just gravy.

[697] It isn't, it is the, having a body of work.

[698] And I get the sense from you that that is your religion almost, is to make this stuff and craft it and make it just the way.

[699] And then know that it's out there.

[700] And that must give you immense, I don't know, just satisfaction.

[701] Yeah, it does.

[702] And it's, it's funny because it is very, that part is so nice.

[703] You always want to fast forward to that part.

[704] We're like, fast forward to the part we're like, I made the thing, here's the thing, but my wife was much smarter than me, always reminds me you're happiest when you've just finished writing.

[705] It's not actually when you're on stage, it's actually when you come into the room from the other room being like, listen to this, and nothing can happen until my wife listens to, you know, like, I need you to listen to this.

[706] It's done and it's done.

[707] And that's the best feeling, and it's the hardest one to hold on to when you've just created a thing.

[708] and in the middle of it in working it out whether it's a song or whether it's a scene or whether it's an act you know the actual making of it is the best part of it and holding on to that because I think one of the themes of Hamilton with regards to legacy is that you don't even control that you know every single one of Hamilton's enemies became president it was you know it was Jefferson then it was Madison And then there was John Quincy Adams.

[709] Oh, no, it's James Monroe, who he almost got into a duel with.

[710] He thought James Monroe leaked the Reynolds papers.

[711] And then John Quincy Adams, the son of the beloved John Adams.

[712] So that's four people who were just not either going to talk shit about him or not talk about him at all.

[713] And so even though he accomplished all this stuff, you know, he was when I picked up that, you know, it's different now.

[714] But when I picked up that biography, all I knew was that he died in a duel.

[715] and he's on the 10 I didn't know any of that other stuff What's fascinating to me and I'm an American history buff and I had read about Hamilton prior to the musical and I had actually seen his Is it in Nevis?

[716] I had been to Nevis and dragged Yeah, the house with the sign that says Yes, my girlfriend at the time to like, we've got to go see Alexander Hamilton's home and she had the appropriate response which was like or we could go to the beach.

[717] Do they serve drinks there?

[718] And they did not.

[719] But I was aware of him, but what's interesting is that you have single -handedly, I think I was somewhere and there was like a statue of Alexander Hamilton and people were gathered around it like it was a statue of, you know, it was here in New York and somewhere there's a statue or Abbas has Alexander Hamilton's name on it and people were gathered around it taking pictures and stuff and I thought this didn't happen before Hamilton, the musical.

[720] It just, it didn't happen.

[721] It's in one fell stroke.

[722] And I don't think, I mean, it's revenge is a dish best serve cold, but you think about all of his enemies and I don't think there's going to be any smash hit musicals about them.

[723] Well, there have been two musicals about Ben Franklin.

[724] That's why I didn't put him in.

[725] I was like, he's had his time.

[726] There have been, there's a musical about Jefferson, I believe.

[727] 1776 exists 1776 yeah so you know they've had they've all had at bats yeah they've had at bats yeah sorry but it's I think what that speaks to is the way art sort of makes us empathize in a totally different way the moving thing to me is that Angelica Skyler Church's gravestone which was like unmarked a Trinity Church is now marked because we mentioned it in the finale of the thing and people, I think a lot of people were showing up the Trinity Church being like, well, where's Angelica's headstone?

[728] And that's a detail I only knew from Ron's book and I, that's the line that made me cry when I was writing it.

[729] I mean, here's it, like, there are people who cry at the end of that finale.

[730] It's pretty fucking relentless, but no one cried harder than me as I was writing it because I was just taking facts from like the last chapter of Cherenhouse book and be like, an orphanage.

[731] And my, wife, who is a scientist and lawyer, was just sort of looking at me like, do you want water or something?

[732] I was like, no, this is how it has to come out.

[733] Like, I was in labor.

[734] Like, and my dog is like, and I'm like, and then she's buried next to him.

[735] But she was never with him.

[736] Wow.

[737] You write out loud.

[738] It's a lot of ugly, it's a lot of ugly cry to get you to ugly cry.

[739] Wow.

[740] Wow.

[741] Well, God bless.

[742] these people in our lives that help us out my wife is fantastic at constantly reminding me how my machine works and occasionally doesn't work and just very when I'm getting intent she's like uh -huh yeah this is what you do yeah this is what you do well you just finished you know you're about to go back to work so you're making yourself hate yourself so you can generate that that's just that thing that you do yeah and it was just yeah exactly she's and it's very helpful to have someone say It is.

[743] I've read the warranty for the Conan or the Conan product.

[744] I'm the one who read the instruction manual.

[745] I have the instruction manual.

[746] It says right here that this is what you do in these situations.

[747] And I go, oh, yeah.

[748] Yeah, my wife is like, you can stop having that argument in your head and just go on to the next thing.

[749] Now, I met you a couple times now, and you're such a genuinely nice person and you have everything in perspective.

[750] There had to be, on some level, the success.

[751] the insane success of Hamilton did that put you back on your heels a little bit do you know what I mean because there was this period of time that I think is still ongoing where people like oh my God and bowing down in a way that is beautiful but for an egomaniacal freak would seem like well of course this is what I deserve but for you was as any of it get to be difficult or strange to handle I had a couple of very unique advantages.

[752] Tommy Kale will joke to you.

[753] Lynn has been famous in his own mind his entire life and everyone else has just caught up.

[754] That's his joke on it and it's only partly true.

[755] Like really since Conrad Bird again.

[756] Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[757] But also, I think that because it happened, by the time it happened, I was like married and with a kid and pretty much knew who I was.

[758] Like if this had happened on my first show, you know, in my 20s, I don't know that I would, but I already, I already knew what I wanted to be doing with my life.

[759] And so when you know that, the crazy offers and the crazy things that come at you when that level of success happens, I have like a filter and a support system that knows, like, well, you don't want to do that.

[760] It sounds crazy, and 12 -year -old you might have wanted to do that, or 22 -year -old you might have wanted to do that.

[761] But, you know, that's not going to help you with what you're doing.

[762] Like, you're writing, you're like the Disney songs right now, and you want to start writing your next show, and you want to survive this year of 70, seven shows a week.

[763] Yeah.

[764] Is that going to help you?

[765] And so, and so I think one thing was actually doing a show, seven shows a week, you can't go out every night.

[766] I couldn't go and say yes to half of the offers that were coming because I had a two show day the next day.

[767] So that kept me humble and grounded.

[768] Like literally your focus is so much on your health when you're doing a Broadway run.

[769] And two, like, I know who I was and I have friends around me who know who I am.

[770] Like, I remember coming home from a meeting with a pretty famous director who wanted to direct to me in a Super Bowl commercial that year in 2016.

[771] And it was a car commercial, and the pitch was like, you're getting out of the Rogers and you throw your jacket over your shoulder and you get into this brand name car and drive off.

[772] And I sort of said it to my wife and I told her who the director was who pitched it to me. And she was like, Lynn, you don't even have a car.

[773] You don't know how to drive.

[774] Yeah, I'm one of the rare city kids who actually does have their license, but I was like, yeah, I don't have a car.

[775] I'm not going to do that commercial.

[776] Yeah.

[777] I'm not going to do that Super Bowl commercial.

[778] That's, I would laugh at me. Yes.

[779] I read somewhere that you like to compare yourself at your age to what other people accomplished at the same age.

[780] I think that's an affliction, many of us share.

[781] Yes.

[782] And I had this crazy, it occurred to me because I'm a big Lincoln buff.

[783] And you always think of Lincoln dying as like this old, he's old Lincoln.

[784] and he's, you know, he's the aging, whizzined, wrinkled, bearded, you know, and he's, and I just turned in April the same age that Lincoln was when he died.

[785] How old was he when he died?

[786] He's 56.

[787] Oh, wow.

[788] And I was like, what?

[789] How is that?

[790] No, he was, I'm the young, sprightly, carrot -topped quixter of late night.

[791] I'm the sprite.

[792] I'm the laughing Lepricornil late night.

[793] And suddenly I'm like, no. your old man Lincoln of comedy yeah well as someone who grew up Catholic I mean there's like when you hit 33 you were like oh shit yeah Jesus year Jesus that's the year that's the Jesus year yeah that's the Jesus year can I outlast the Jesus year yeah for me it was like 27 the 27 club like it's sort of like I have like mile markers of like when people died who like accomplished incredible things the Beatles like quit before they were 30 they did everything they did did before they were 30.

[794] So it's like, we're all fucked.

[795] Like, none of us can matter up to that.

[796] Well, the Beatles ruin it for everybody.

[797] Yes.

[798] The Beatles fuck up the curve so bad.

[799] Yeah, if you're going for like, you know, maybe I'm doing my bad.

[800] No, no, no, no. They were...

[801] Don't compare yourself to the Beatles.

[802] Yes.

[803] Way lies madness.

[804] Yeah, it's...

[805] But there were four of them.

[806] And you've now done that for other people.

[807] Because now other people are going to be like, I didn't, Len Manuel Miranda, Ronald, Hamilton, when he was, you know, I haven't done that yet.

[808] And Andrew Lloyd Weber had written three musicals by the time he was 21.

[809] Right.

[810] Again, fucked up the curve.

[811] Serial killers have done their best work.

[812] Oh, my God.

[813] Well, they do.

[814] Before they're 35.

[815] It's a young man's game.

[816] It's a young man's game.

[817] I just was so delighted when you said that you were up for doing this podcast because it's a very different format from the show.

[818] I didn't know when I got into doing a podcast what it was I would be able to explore or how is this going to be different than television.

[819] and you're the perfect example of why I'm delighted to fly to New York and sit in a studio and get a chance to just go down the mind shaft and experience your remarkable brain firsthand over like a nice quiet period of time.

[820] It's a thrill for me. Oh, thank you.

[821] Likewise.

[822] I'm such a long -time fan of yours, and it's just a dream to get to talk to you for real, for real.

[823] You did something so sweet.

[824] I have a hard time ever accepting that I've done anything.

[825] I'm just, that's my default setting.

[826] And when I saw Hamilton at the end, at the curtain call, I never think people can see me and you saw me. You're very tall.

[827] Yeah, I'm very tall.

[828] I forget that.

[829] And you did the quick little string dance that I, you know, do where I pretend I have invisible strings type.

[830] You did that for me looking right at me and I couldn't believe it.

[831] Because I just had this remarkable experience seeing Hamilton for the first time And then you saw me and you did this little thing And it got it just It was such a sweet Well is a live theater the fucking best It is Because that could not have happened if I'd made a TV show And then just reached out and did the string dance for you You could have you could have made everyone endure that Just because you knew that I'd be watching it And I'm so such an egomaniac That I think that would be appropriate That if you did Then Hamilton the movie it should end with a string dance because you know that I'll be in one of the theaters seeing it.

[832] Well, God bless you.

[833] Thank you for everything on behalf of everybody in the world who likes goodness.

[834] Thank you.

[835] Thank you, Conan.

[836] Dream Compture talking to you.

[837] I should mention that for quite a while now, Matt Goreley has been on hiatus.

[838] You've been on vacation.

[839] Where'd you go, Matt?

[840] I went to Thailand for a wedding.

[841] Yeah.

[842] We taped some great podcasts while you were gone.

[843] I missed.

[844] I was so sad to miss this.

[845] What did you miss?

[846] You missed Newhart?

[847] I was so, so sad to miss Newhart.

[848] I almost came back early.

[849] You missed Newhart, you missed Howard Stern.

[850] And Lynn Manuel Miranda.

[851] All of Lynn, Manuel Miranda.

[852] You missed a lot of great ones.

[853] Yeah, and you know, it's interesting.

[854] It felt like the podcast really soared.

[855] It just, it took off.

[856] Really?

[857] Yeah, we got a lot of...

[858] I listened and it seemed to be missing something substantial.

[859] What do you think it was missing?

[860] I don't want to say it.

[861] We did miss you.

[862] I know I rib you.

[863] Yeah, I miss you.

[864] We did miss you, girl.

[865] You add, you are the secret sauce.

[866] No. I like to call you.

[867] Not a good sauce, but a secret.

[868] It's like when someone spits in a soup, it's a secret, but no one's thrilled about it.

[869] You are the secret sauce.

[870] You're a good man. We did miss you.

[871] And I'm glad you're back.

[872] Thank you.

[873] Thank you.

[874] I did notice something, though.

[875] Did you listen to them?

[876] Yeah, I did.

[877] Okay.

[878] Yeah, I noticed that I was still on the podcast.

[879] Ah, yes.

[880] Okay And we had taped some segments ahead of time for the end But in the intro Which I wasn't there for I was still in those intros Okay, let me explain what happened Yeah, yeah, I'd like to hear Because we are, this show is all about honesty I just said that It's not true Which actually defeats the purpose of me saying It's all about honesty I didn't want people to feel that a piece was missing I respect that, yeah Okay, so in the moment I asked Adam Sacks if he would pretend to be you and so let's see if we can Adam's here right now let's see if we can recreate that moment I would say and I'm also joined by Matt Gourley Matt how are you?

[881] Hi That's what Sacks did Wait a minute That's Sacks Do it again The face is the thing that You didn't know I did the face No He does your face too Hi Hi You make me sound like I'm 12 years old Well basically That's how I see you Hi That's how I see you Matt Now what was really fun is he did that the first time and we got away with it.

[882] Second time, I couldn't help it.

[883] I had to push it.

[884] So I think I was like...

[885] It was torture.

[886] It was torture.

[887] I think I said to Adam and how are you?

[888] And he did.

[889] Hi.

[890] And then I went, yeah, but really, how are you?

[891] What's going on?

[892] And then you were laughing really hard, but you also had to...

[893] Oh, I was really confident in my high.

[894] I feel like I have the high on lockdown.

[895] The high is, you got it, yeah.

[896] But the wheels come off when I have to do anything more than high.

[897] I knew that.

[898] And I know that you knew that, and I could see in your eyes that you smelled blood.

[899] I smelled blood, so I think I forced you to talk more.

[900] Yeah, I think we might even have it.

[901] Do you want to play a little clip?

[902] Yeah, let's play.

[903] You can always wave me off if you think this opener is just terrible.

[904] It's great.

[905] Really?

[906] Mm -hmm.

[907] Thanks, Gwarlene.

[908] Joined here by my trustee assistant, Sona Mousessian.

[909] How are you, Sona?

[910] I'm doing very well.

[911] Thank you.

[912] And, of course, Matt Gorsley's here.

[913] Hi.

[914] Matt is quite a sharp dresser He is.

[915] Yeah, you're looking very sharp Matt.

[916] He's wearing suspenders, which is weird.

[917] Sorry.

[918] He's such a...

[919] What do you call it?

[920] What's the nickname for it?

[921] Not a hipster.

[922] He's kind of a hip.

[923] Okay.

[924] Come on, girl, you have this coming.

[925] You wore suspenders today.

[926] And a wool cap.

[927] I'm so sorry.

[928] He has a wool cap and suspenders and he's got a little pipe.

[929] He's got one of those Mircham pipes tucked into his pocket.

[930] You're really, ridiculous person.

[931] It's a tiny pipe.

[932] Okay, it is a tiny pipe.

[933] Anyway, the fact that he's not defending himself is just a sign that we're right.

[934] Yeah, I think so.

[935] And he's wrong.

[936] Let's get to the show, shall we?

[937] Okay.

[938] Wow.

[939] You should probably take a lawn.

[940] The wheels are way off at this point.

[941] Gorely, you're sounding a little hoarse.

[942] God, he's like a little wood creature.

[943] I know.

[944] I've never heard him take it like this before.

[945] Clearly.

[946] Can I say something?

[947] Okay, I just love how Sona, first of all, fantastic job.

[948] of churning on goarly.

[949] I'm so sorry.

[950] The minute he leaves.

[951] I'm so ashamed.

[952] And then laying on wool cap.

[953] I mean, we made you look like a fool.

[954] Can I say something?

[955] A very close friend of mine, shout out to Daniel Michikoff, came over and he said, I can't believe you let them do that without.

[956] Usually you fire back.

[957] Like, you really let them give it to you.

[958] Yes, yes.

[959] He bought it.

[960] He believed it.

[961] Wow.

[962] And I went, what are you talking about?

[963] No, that wasn't me. You couldn't tell.

[964] I thought that was very clear.

[965] No, it was not clear.

[966] Wow.

[967] Very good job.

[968] Tip of the cap to Adam Sacks for also selling out an old friend in Man Gourley.

[969] I know where I stand here.

[970] Look, you're back, and we're glad to have you back.

[971] I'm glad to be back.

[972] Because you're an important member of the team.

[973] And if something were to happen to you, would get someone else immediately and things would just sail along, but you'd still be missed eventually.

[974] Yeah, I appreciate that.

[975] And same here.

[976] And even though you guys all...

[977] What's that?

[978] You think, same here.

[979] You think I could be replaced?

[980] No, I mean, I agree that I could be replaced.

[981] Oh, that's terrible.

[982] Don't put yourself down like that.

[983] You could not be replaced.

[984] You can't be replaced.

[985] Yeah, thanks.

[986] I'm so sorry that I piled on.

[987] Yeah, I know.

[988] I don't know.

[989] You guys really, the three of you took, I was gone for a little bit and you really went to time.

[990] It was a long time to leave for a wedding.

[991] The show must go on.

[992] Yeah.

[993] Now, I forgive you guys, not that you're apologizing, but I do.

[994] We're not.

[995] We're not apologizing.

[996] But still, I forgive you.

[997] Okay.

[998] Yeah.

[999] Well, we're all together, and I will say this about this podcast.

[1000] We will always strive for honesty here.

[1001] We will.

[1002] Oh, my God.

[1003] We will.

[1004] We will.

[1005] journalists of the highest order and we will always strive to bring you the truth and so if there is any deception we will come clean um i want to make sure if any of you feel that there are issues you want to bring up oh god that you tell me because i want this to be a an honest environment you're the last person i would bring issues up with it's not a safe place to do that no it would be you would just make fun of both of us i'm not going to set myself up for that are you kidding no way it doesn't sound like, I feel like the person you're describing is not the person I think I am.

[1006] Yeah, I think that's true.

[1007] I think of myself as a supportive person who listens.

[1008] And I don't take cheap shots or anything like that.

[1009] No. You know?

[1010] Well, what else do we talk about?

[1011] You want to do a quick, you guys close your eyes and then you can tell whether it's me or Adam speaking.

[1012] Okay, go ahead.

[1013] Ready?

[1014] Okay.

[1015] Hi.

[1016] Oh, that's Shirley Temple.

[1017] I think that, I don't know.

[1018] Wait.

[1019] No, no, go again.

[1020] Same person or just whatever.

[1021] Okay.

[1022] Hi.

[1023] That's Adam.

[1024] That's Adam.

[1025] Hi.

[1026] That's Gordley.

[1027] That's Matt.

[1028] Hi.

[1029] That's Adam.

[1030] Hi.

[1031] That's Matt.

[1032] Hold on.

[1033] We got to get better at this.

[1034] Yeah, I think the fact that you're going.

[1035] It's like you're playing a lame game of ping pong.

[1036] Did it ever occur to you that maybe, One of you would go twice in a row.

[1037] Didn't occur to me. Wow.

[1038] Me either.

[1039] You guys are absurd.

[1040] That was a terrible.

[1041] That was terrible.

[1042] That was not well thought out.

[1043] You go, then I'll go.

[1044] We're going to fool them.

[1045] You go, then I'll go.

[1046] Then you go.

[1047] We were in it for a while.

[1048] That's Matt.

[1049] That's Adam.

[1050] That's Adam.

[1051] You know what I love?

[1052] This is just a terrible, like this is a jeopardy for really dumb people.

[1053] Yeah.

[1054] And the prize is nothing.

[1055] Here we go.

[1056] Hi.

[1057] Adam.

[1058] Yeah, I think that's Adam.

[1059] Hi.

[1060] That's Adam.

[1061] No, I knew you were going to do it twice.

[1062] Yeah, you just are now doing it.

[1063] We're just suggested you try a strategy.

[1064] We're not the best psychological games.

[1065] Can I just quickly apologize to anyone who's listening right now who's driving?

[1066] This might put you to sleep.

[1067] just pull over the side of the road and if you can you should probably switch to a different podcast because this is a disaster This is so dumb This is a new Sona and I have our eyes closed and you two idiots are going Hi, hi, hi, hi, hi, hi, hi, hi and somehow this is one of my favorite moments we've ever done.

[1068] This is, this is fun I mean we live in a world where there's 3D incredible CGI.

[1069] And we are huddled around microphones.

[1070] I've crawled back to the lowest form of show business.

[1071] Close your eyes.

[1072] Hi.

[1073] Hi.

[1074] Hi.

[1075] Will's losing it.

[1076] Will is losing it.

[1077] Will is crying.

[1078] Will is crying.

[1079] We're pushing the medium, man. We're pushing the medium.

[1080] We're taking chances, man. We're taking chances.

[1081] Well, I'm proud of us.

[1082] I think we, why don't it get so quiet?

[1083] You guys aren't usually that attentive to me. I think we're just, like, thought maybe you'd deliver a positive moment and we're like, this can't be real.

[1084] Oh, no, it wasn't real.

[1085] Okay.

[1086] No, I would never praise us.

[1087] I would praise myself, but not us as a group.

[1088] Yeah.

[1089] What?

[1090] I'd praise myself.

[1091] I would.

[1092] But not us as a group.

[1093] That's, that's, that's.

[1094] We're an awful thing to say.

[1095] It's kind of That's my I don't know That's probably my philosophy in life I will praise myself Now we're being honest Here we go, we did We're back together as a family Yep The three And I'm not going to say amigosos The one amigo And then the two people That the Amigo knows Kind of who work for the Amigo How about the one Amigo And then the two people who get You literally, you can't be one Amigo You need to have a friend To be a friend We're the friends.

[1096] You're just the bandito.

[1097] Yeah.

[1098] You hang on to our friendship.

[1099] So you're the two amigos and I'm the bandito?

[1100] No, I am the Amigo and you're the two people that work for one Amigo.

[1101] No, I think Matt and I are the friends.

[1102] And out of the beneficence and generosity of the Amigo, you two have living since you are able to be sustained.

[1103] That's the kind of Amigo I am.

[1104] You're the evil rancher.

[1105] You're the villain.

[1106] All right.

[1107] Let's go.

[1108] Let's go.

[1109] Listen, you wanted content, I gave you content.

[1110] Hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey.

[1111] People are thinking they're listening to a Japanese game show.

[1112] Conan O 'Brien needs a friend with Sonam of Sessian and Conan O 'Brien as himself.

[1113] Produced by me, Matt Goreley.

[1114] Executive produced by Adam Sacks and Jeff Ross at Team Coco, and Chris Bannon and Colin Anderson at Earwolf.

[1115] Special thanks to Jack White for the theme song.

[1116] Incidental music by Jimmy Vivino.

[1117] Our supervising producer is Aaron Blair and the show is engineered by Will Bechton.

[1118] You can rate and review this show on Apple Podcasts and you might find your review featured on a future episode.

[1119] Got a question for Conan?

[1120] Call the Team Coco hotline at 323 -151 -2821 and leave a message.

[1121] It too could be featured on a future episode.

[1122] And if you haven't already, please subscribe to Conan Brian needs a friend on Apple Podcasts or wherever fine podcasts are downloaded.

[1123] This has been a Team Coco production in association with Earwolf.