294 - Was It A Sandwich?

[0] This is exactly right.

[1] Welcome to my favorite murder.

[2] That's Georgia Hardstock.

[3] That's Karen Kilgaris.

[4] And we're here to talk to you about some important stuff having to do with multi -level marketing.

[5] That's right.

[6] Are you ready?

[7] Do you know your warranty is almost expired?

[8] If you buy this one pair of leggings is the only print of this that I have in stock for the next couple hours.

[9] Oh, yeah.

[10] Karen has a whole box of those out in the garage.

[11] If you put them on all at once.

[12] They look amazing.

[13] It's get attention at your next book club.

[14] Do it.

[15] Hey, are you reading any books?

[16] Yes.

[17] We got sent a box.

[18] Yeah, this is a problem because I don't have anything near me. But we got sent a box of books by a listener who works in a bookstore and sent us a bunch of books that was like deadstock from their true crime section.

[19] Totally.

[20] You get some too?

[21] Yeah.

[22] Asia was like, I'm going to give you half and you half, Karen, and you guys can figure it out.

[23] And so I have like a bunch of John Walsh vintage book and like some Ann Rule in there.

[24] Totally.

[25] Yeah.

[26] So right now I'm reading a book about one of the first women who went searching for missing people essentially in the 70s and 80s.

[27] No way.

[28] Yeah, started a search and rescue and then went into basically.

[29] became a private detective and started, you know, for hire going to look for people who are missing.

[30] Wow.

[31] That's incredible.

[32] The book is called Finder, the true story of a private investigator.

[33] And it's by Marilyn Green.

[34] She's the Finder.

[35] Wow.

[36] And Gary Provost.

[37] So you're going to cover her one day, do you think?

[38] I mean, yes, probably because there's, it's one of those things where it's just her career.

[39] So she talks about all these different cases that she's been involved in.

[40] So there's definitely lots to choose from in there.

[41] I was just going to try to see when it was published.

[42] Because this is totally the kind of book that would be on my mom's nightstand.

[43] Yeah, that you'd sneak.

[44] It was published in 1988.

[45] Aw.

[46] The year I graduated from high school.

[47] Aw.

[48] Anyway, pretty fascinating.

[49] I mean, it was one of those kind of things where I was trying to read Moby Dick.

[50] I think I told you that.

[51] That's right.

[52] Very dense book.

[53] Hard pass.

[54] Hard pass.

[55] I loved trying to read it.

[56] And it's the kind of thing where I just, I'm pretty sure I have ADD.

[57] I would have to pull a piece of paper down line by line so that I can read forward and scan and do a bunch of shit.

[58] But then after a while, it wasn't, it almost felt like I was getting into bed and starting homework assignment.

[59] Yeah.

[60] These are the kind of books where I read until I can't keep my eyes open anymore.

[61] That reminds me of when I was in high school and I was like declaring myself an atheist.

[62] so I was like, hey, but if you're going to be an atheist, you have to be informed.

[63] So I made myself try to read the Bible.

[64] No. No. That was confusing.

[65] I did not get very far.

[66] Here's the thing.

[67] It's really old.

[68] So old.

[69] And there's a ton of numbers in there, which is not like normal books.

[70] And it's like fucking learn basic grammar.

[71] You know what I mean?

[72] Oh.

[73] Smyth and doth and smiting this and smiting it off.

[74] The Lord.

[75] no thank you so i just decided to just be an atheist that doesn't know a lot about the bible instead i mean you know you can just be like it's more of a conceptual thing but if you can bring me some pieces of the bible that you think i'd love i'm open to it you could do it that way can you jump around let me a part your favorite part of the bible and i'll jump around i don't think it's chronological i think you can jump around and just go from psalms to fucking revelations make it happen for yourself that's right i studied the Torah in hebrew school i've done a enough, you know?

[76] Wow.

[77] I mean, you're, you're, you're kind of a biblical scholar.

[78] Kind of right.

[79] I'm basically a biblical doctor right now.

[80] Tad, can I ask you a question?

[81] I'm not trying to question you having said.

[82] You just studied the Torah.

[83] Yeah.

[84] Am I wrong in thinking that the Torah is the Old Testament?

[85] Yeah.

[86] Part one.

[87] So, okay, it's not a different Jewish book.

[88] No. The Torah is the Old Testament.

[89] Yeah.

[90] It's the Bible.

[91] Yeah.

[92] It's, that's okay.

[93] Yeah.

[94] So I was going to try to read part two, and I just couldn't get there.

[95] Nobody likes, you know, of what's the word I'm terrible for?

[96] Yes, thank you, shit.

[97] Sequels always drop the ball.

[98] The Bible, electric boogaloo.

[99] I mean, it's such a downer at the end.

[100] They kill him.

[101] What are you reading besides the Bible these days?

[102] I have my book.

[103] I'm on my bed right now.

[104] So I'm reading a book called The World Gives.

[105] Way by Marissa Levine and it's a total sci -fi end -of -the -world apocalypse book.

[106] Perfect.

[107] About like a thousand years in the future, we had to escape Earth on a pod and there are like different cast systems and like suddenly there's a rip in the side of the fucking ship that is now Earth and end of the world.

[108] It's really good.

[109] You know I love a good apocalypse.

[110] Yeah.

[111] it's for some reason these days apocalypse stories are very satisfying and they really are doing it well it's nice when you're living in one to have someone to be like is this possibly what could happen because right it would be just nice to have any kind of guy yeah yeah yeah well here's an here's something to to counteract that apocalyptic vibe great um also mercury's in retrograde oh is again shit um or it's about to be but uh not I try not to get too specific about that, but I have to give credit where credit is due because at T .C. Liddell or Little on Twitter, they let me know that season two of love on the spectrum had begun, which is an amazing Netflix series about people who are on the autism spectrum or who are neurodivergent, I believe is a term.

[112] And they are trying, they're trying to date some for the first time in their adult lives.

[113] season one was probably a year ago in the pandemic unbelievable beautiful Australian television making season two is just as good a lot of the people are back again it's beautiful beautiful television but it will break it will break you emotionally like you have to you know you can't be coming off something hard and then go into love on the spectrum because you'll just be a mess for days you'll just cry the whole time at the end of it it's got a big heart it's a really big hearted show right and it's also kind of like it's the thing where I think a lot of people who like to believe that they are not neurodivergent although bring me bring me the person that isn't but a lot of people watch that show and think oh look at them that's their experience and what you as you watch a show you realize everything they're saying and everything they're worried about and everything they're excited about that's what everyone is like when it comes to love totally it's the same across the board so it's like it's actually a show about you you're watching yourself try to be vulnerable and try to be authentic and um a lot of the people on this show are so good at it they're so themselves yeah their concern is just i'm going to be myself i hope they like me as opposed to a lot of people who are just like well mask number 16 will go on and then we'll see how this goes yeah or you get through your whole life in a mask instead of having to be your authentic self and never find true love because you just don't have the capabilities to be a hundred percent authentic and assume or hope someone will love you for that reason.

[114] It's very like it gets to the heart of a lot of things it's real sensitive TV viewing.

[115] It's real good, real good.

[116] I'll watch it.

[117] The only thing that's been in my house lately we've just evolved into this point of all we watch are Guy Fieri shows.

[118] That's all we watch now.

[119] He's like...

[120] Diner's drives and drive -thrus and dive -ins?

[121] All of those things.

[122] Guy's grocery games is another great one that we're big fans.

[123] Is it like a game show?

[124] It's like, yeah.

[125] So he has this like fake grocery store set up and chef contestants come on and it's like, okay, you have to make me a, you know, spicy lunch with these parameters and then it's like supermarket sweeps where they have to run through the fucking grocery store picking out all the things.

[126] Yes.

[127] You know, with like hardcore parameters, like added in last minute.

[128] It's just like a really fun game show.

[129] Like, I have gluten issues.

[130] Make me a dish.

[131] Yeah, exactly.

[132] Or now you have to use this one ingredient.

[133] You have to use saracha and your dessert.

[134] Go.

[135] Yeah.

[136] It's fun.

[137] Oh, that sounds fun.

[138] Yeah.

[139] That and then we watched Cat Williams till like two in the morning.

[140] Oh, the other night.

[141] The funniest.

[142] The funniest.

[143] His first special we watched.

[144] It was a dream.

[145] A dream.

[146] He's a genius.

[147] is that the one where he does that thing where he has a DJ'd give the cue every day I'm hustling hustling and he keeps being like different scenarios of that.

[148] He's in green he looks like a hilarious leprechaun that man is such a good stand -up comic he is such it's just amazing someone I saw people talking about him on Twitter one time saying you will almost never see a comic open because I think they were talking about his most recent special you'll never see a comic open up and start doing local jokes and kill totally that almost never happens but this guy because it's the one where he filmed it in Florida I believe and he was just doing like you know Florida jokes and I like wherever they were I can't remember what city but it was amazing and you didn't have to right you don't didn't have to know to know.

[149] And like, he's that good.

[150] The audience is loving it so much that you're enjoying it with them because even if you don't understand, like even if you've never been to a waffle house, you can understand his joke about a fucking waffle house.

[151] Like, it makes sense.

[152] You get the, he paints the picture perfectly for you.

[153] Kat Williams.

[154] Everyone just sit and fucking watch his documentary.

[155] I mean, watch the, watch the master.

[156] There's a, I think we're supposed to tease this.

[157] There's a brand new Nick Terry, um, animated.

[158] that is on the exactly right media YouTube page you can go right now and watch it it's a classic he is a comedy genius it's got nothing to do with us he just takes some like little snippet of a thing we say in this case I disagree it's all us no he's so good he's so good this one is about this is from a hometown it should be it's about a can of peaches and a dick And it's just the funniest.

[159] What more do you need?

[160] What more do you need?

[161] It's the funniest video.

[162] What's our YouTube account?

[163] Exactly right media.

[164] Exactly right media.

[165] Okay.

[166] You said that already.

[167] Good.

[168] Will you please also subscribe to our channel?

[169] It helps.

[170] It helps.

[171] Everything helps.

[172] Subscribing to things, being a part of things, showing up.

[173] Yeah.

[174] Telling a friend.

[175] It also helps.

[176] High fiving.

[177] All of it.

[178] Pictures of your animals.

[179] Just whatever you need.

[180] Yeah.

[181] now about all of it yeah um anything else should we just get this thing started no yeah let's get this started jesus is that a record for the quickest intro maybe you know we're back into recording again so things are things are moving along it's like every i it feels like we finish one recording and we turn around and here we go yes it's happening again and the imbalance of what i'm doing in my life versus how much we're recording is really going to start showing pretty soon.

[182] Right.

[183] Yeah, when we actually could leave the house regularly, have lives, do things, talk to people.

[184] We, the recording, the intros would be 45 minutes.

[185] Yeah, but there were things to say.

[186] This 15 minutes reflects the lack of things that are happening in our fucking lives.

[187] And literally everyone's like, we like it that way.

[188] Stop talking.

[189] Just tell the fucking story.

[190] Okay.

[191] All right.

[192] Fine.

[193] I will.

[194] I'm first.

[195] Right?

[196] Yep.

[197] Okay.

[198] Karen, you know I'm all about vintage shopping.

[199] Absolutely.

[200] And when you say vintage, you mean when you physically drive to a store and actually purchase something with cash.

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[216] That's Shopify .com slash murder.

[217] Goodbye.

[218] All right.

[219] So this week's story, as they always do, is going to stick with me for the rest of my life.

[220] Partly because it's a story.

[221] it's just a tragedy that could had so many opportunities to be avoided and there were so many missteps and mishandlings and then on top of that the families of the victims had to fight for justice.

[222] So this is the story of the highest death toll in British sporting history, the Hillsborough disaster.

[223] Oh, God.

[224] I know, I know.

[225] I've seen, I've seen, I think, video of this.

[226] I think.

[227] There's a 30 for 30 about.

[228] it, which is great.

[229] So my sources today are, there's like a bunch of BBC news staff articles, of course.

[230] There's a BBC podcast about it.

[231] There's a YouTube video about it.

[232] And then there's actually the report of the Hillsborough independent panel.

[233] I also watch the Sky News documentary, the 30 for 30 and a Britannica article.

[234] And of course, Wikipedia.

[235] So there is a myriad of reasons why this disaster occurred and there are all these like little and big things that added up to this day that made it so that so many people lost their lives.

[236] So like if you had taken one of those or two of those little things out of the equation, it might not have been such a huge disaster.

[237] So let me go through.

[238] Let's start with going through the day.

[239] So Saturday, April 15th, 1989, the Football Association Cup is holding the semifference.

[240] my final match between Liverpool and Nottingham Forest, and it's being held at the Hillsborough Stadium in Sheffield, South Yorkshire, England.

[241] So I guess you and I have been to a football match, a soccer match in England when we were there last time.

[242] Yes, we were.

[243] It was incredible.

[244] And so just as everyone knows, soccer or football, as it's known, in England, is huge.

[245] It's like the biggest thing.

[246] It's our baseball and football put together.

[247] Families go, like, you live in a town and, like, that's your team.

[248] And you're just like, you're just like, it's the same as here with baseball or football.

[249] Like, that is your home team.

[250] And you will wear stupid cheese hats and paint your body and like buy all the things because you're so obsessed with them.

[251] It's your life.

[252] It's like part of the life and culture there.

[253] And one of the things when we were at that game, you and me and Vince, after our London show, this songs, the chants.

[254] There was a whole like, uh, yeah, everyone has a chance.

[255] And it's really big groups of people all knowing the words to those songs and cheering and doing it.

[256] It's really, it's moving to the point of being a little bit scary.

[257] It's powerful.

[258] It's very powerful.

[259] And it is like it is this huge, you know, we went in.

[260] There's people are, it's like when you go into a baseball game and you walk down to get to the stadium.

[261] and you feel that huge rush and it's so exciting.

[262] It's that but like happy, excited British people.

[263] So it's just like this surge.

[264] We should probably say for the most part British men.

[265] I don't, yes.

[266] I think you and I and maybe three other gals were there.

[267] That's right.

[268] To me. But it is this like, it's their culture.

[269] It's what they do.

[270] You go to these matches.

[271] You support these clubs and you yell at other people about how they're wrong about supporting their clubs and depending on where you're from.

[272] You know what I mean?

[273] Yep.

[274] So British people are going to get real mad at me for this one.

[275] You're just explaining sports.

[276] I am.

[277] Just the concept of sports.

[278] And you're not going to believe it.

[279] There's snacks and beer there.

[280] And clapping.

[281] And clapping.

[282] And there's a ball on the field.

[283] There's players doing things to the ball.

[284] It's really exciting.

[285] Yeah.

[286] But I do think there's like a fervor there about their football that doesn't really translate to like maybe our football is the closest right right okay so so this is the game between the Liverpool club and the Nottingham Forest Club it's being held in Sheffield which so it's kind of like an even playing field because it's neither of the town neither of the team's town south Yorkshire so this is the semifinals so it's the second biggest game ever obviously the finals being the biggest makes sense so anyone with a ticket is super stoked to go.

[287] It's a beautiful sunny, warm day, perfect weather.

[288] The match is sold out.

[289] More than 54 ,000 fans are expected to enter Hillsborough Stadium before the 3 p .m. kickoff.

[290] And so due to what's known as football hooliganism, which basically means people get drunk and fight and beat up the other team's players or whatever, Liverpool fans are entered through a separate entrance than the Nottingham Forest fans.

[291] It's just two different sides of the stadium.

[292] When we went, we sat in a part for people who weren't fans of either team or just, like, spectators.

[293] Is that true?

[294] Yeah.

[295] But you could see that, like, this team over here was singing for, I think it was Manchester.

[296] We were there for, like, they are seated in different sections.

[297] So that there's cops that are posted down the stairs to keep people in their sections.

[298] That's right.

[299] Or to protect people, like the away team.

[300] Yeah.

[301] That's right.

[302] That's right.

[303] Okay.

[304] So the entrance for the Liverpool ticket holders is on what's known as Leppings Lane.

[305] It's the street on one side of the stadium.

[306] So over 10 ,000 people have tickets for that area.

[307] It's the standing room only section known as the terrace.

[308] So all these 10 ,000 fans can only enter through this Leppings Lane entrance and it only has seven turnstiles for 10 ,000 people trying to get there before 3 o 'clock.

[309] So clearly that's.

[310] inadequate to begin with.

[311] Once they're through the turnstiles, then fans make their way to the terrace pens or to the sections, either through a tunnel that's right in front of them or two less obvious side entrances that you can't even see.

[312] When you walk through the turnstiles, you just see this one entrance and you think, well, this must be the way to go to all of them.

[313] But it's not.

[314] The terrace itself, where the standing room only section is, it's basically just like shallow concrete steps.

[315] So it's like a little, you know, you stand, there's a step down, there's step down, there's step down.

[316] And then there's barriers, like every few steps to keep people from like pushing forward.

[317] So then there are also lateral fences dividing the terrace into pens.

[318] So you can't like it's not like a whole thing.

[319] It's like this is a pen for a thousand people.

[320] This one next to its pen for a thousand people.

[321] You can't go between them.

[322] It's basically like an animal pen.

[323] It's like clearly a bad design when you just.

[324] look at it.

[325] And there's only, and the only exits are through the back.

[326] So if you go in and get to the front, you can't just turn around and go back if they're totally full.

[327] Right.

[328] And then there's also a fence in the front to prevent people from going on to the field.

[329] And at the front of each pen located on the perimeter fence, there's a small gate, but it's locked.

[330] By two o 'clock, just over 2 ,000 fans have entered the terrace.

[331] And most of them are in pens three and four, which is the one that you walk forward into.

[332] They have capacities of 1 ,1 ,100 people.

[333] And one of the other reasons they're most popular, aside from being able to just walk right into them, is that they're directly behind the goal.

[334] So they're like incredible seats.

[335] Oh, yeah.

[336] It's an incredible spot to be.

[337] But there's no security.

[338] There's no staff telling any of the fans where to go or using the crowd control to make sure, like, you don't have to just walk down this hallway.

[339] You can actually go over there.

[340] There should be people telling everyone where to go to disperse the crowd.

[341] properly.

[342] By 2 .15, a large crowd is gathering outside Lepping's Lane by the turnstiles trying to get through them.

[343] So there's only 30 minutes left until kickoff.

[344] And there's just over 4 ,300 fans that have made it through the turnstile.

[345] And there's another 5 ,000 still waiting their turn to get through those seven turnstiles.

[346] An announcement is made over the loudspeaker asking the fans in those two pens, three and four to move forward or spread out sideways or to move to a different pen but there's no way for them to do it.

[347] They'd have to backtrack and go out through the back exits where people are pushing their way in.

[348] So it's not that easy.

[349] By 235, there's so many people in Leppings Lane that fans are pressed against the turnstile and they become difficult to even operate and people start to be jammed up just in the turnstiles alone.

[350] And there's video of this.

[351] It's, yeah.

[352] Inside the stadium, the pens three and four are reaching capacity already.

[353] Police officers discussed delaying the game until all the fans have made it to the terrace, but it's dismissed.

[354] That idea is dismissed.

[355] Instead, at 2 .52 p .m., Yorkshire Police Chief Superintendent David Duckenfield, who had little experience policing soccer matches.

[356] He gives the order to open the exit gate that's right next to the turnstiles, but they normally would have opened to let people leave.

[357] Open it, just let people in so we can relieve this crowding.

[358] So the gate stays open for about five minutes, but it's enough time to let a huge surge of fans into the stadium at once.

[359] So this is kind of the tipping point, it seems.

[360] Like, there's so many errors that have already been made and so many problems with, you know, policing the crowd.

[361] But this seems like the surge that tips everything over.

[362] So around 2 ,000 fans now start walking to the terrace via that tunnel that's already almost at capacity.

[363] Completely unaware that they'll be forced into Penn's three and four.

[364] and as the tunnel quickly fills with fans, the people in the front of the pens start to get pushed up against that gate behind the goal.

[365] This is making me panic.

[366] And I don't think I'm a person that's like that, like has claustrophobia or anything easily.

[367] But this idea of being stuck in a crowd, like an unmanaged crowd, really upsets me. I fucking hate the idea.

[368] I think that's why I, a couple times when I was watching video and like the documentaries, is I got lightheaded.

[369] This is what I do have problems with claustrophobia and crowd.

[370] And so I don't think, but I don't think anyone needs to have a fear of that to understand how terrifyingness is.

[371] Yeah, this is horrible.

[372] And I think this is one of the many reasons that this one is just like, it sticks with you.

[373] It reminds me of the one you did of the Who concert.

[374] Was that right?

[375] Yep.

[376] Same fucking story.

[377] Yeah.

[378] I mean, it's just horrible.

[379] Yeah.

[380] So now that the gate was opened, this surge of people were able to come in.

[381] Around 2 ,000 fans now start walking to the terrace via the tunnel.

[382] They're totally unaware that they'll be forced into pens three and four, which are already packed.

[383] So people in the front of the pens start to get pushed against the front gate, you know, where there's a locked door and then the wall is really high.

[384] And it's like, you know, when fences at the top are turned in so that people can't climb over them just because of hooliganism, you know, but no one thought about safety clearly exactly well yeah they're more concerned with keeping people off the pitch right yeah hey you know the word pitch i pay attention when we go to things in london i'm impressed so some fans start escaping by climbing over the side fences to get into the pens that are next to them where there's like nobody in them by the way like if there had been some kind of crowd control this would have never happened oh no you mean that the things right next to them are empty are like almost empty but and like they're the kind of walls that it's like you'd have to be a strong young person to be able to climb that fence like I as a 41 year old woman would never be able to yank myself up there but I think people are helping each other boosting each other out to get to the side pens but then at 254 as all these people are making their way in the players go on to the field and so fans in the stadium start cheering which means the people who are going down the tunnels think something's happening and starting and so we're So they start pushing forward even more, like an excitement.

[385] And so that happens again when the game starts at 259.

[386] And then again, five minutes later, when Liverpool takes a shot at the goal, so everyone goes wild.

[387] So even more people start pushing their way in down that tunnel.

[388] Yeah, it's terrifying.

[389] So there's just this surge of people moving forward.

[390] At this point, one of the crush barriers, which is basically just a metal rail to keep people like, you know, here's a little group of people.

[391] here's a little grip, like one of those metal rails collapses under the weight of all the people, which just tells you how crazy.

[392] Like, it's a metal fucking railing in concrete.

[393] Oh.

[394] So that thing collapses, which means a bunch of people topple forward again.

[395] So on to the people in the front.

[396] I know.

[397] This is terrifying.

[398] And more increased pressure on those in the front of the pens.

[399] So fans are beginning to be so crushed, they can't breathe.

[400] and those in the front are losing consciousness.

[401] Oh, my God.

[402] I know.

[403] As Penn's 3 and 4 continue to fill to the brim, and you can see it in these videos, it's like this swaying surge of humans.

[404] Like some people you can tell don't really know what's going on, and they're like cheering for the team thinking this is normal.

[405] Some people you can tell are being knocked off their feet, and so they're like trying to control it, but it's just this wave of humans.

[406] Yeah, at this point, there's too many people to have like one guy go.

[407] hold on this or that everyone go there's people in the front who can't breathe like there's just it's so many people so as they fill the police officers interpret the crowd being unruly instead of actually being filled to capacity so they think there's quote signs of potential disorder and consequently the cops were slow to realize that spectators being crushed injured and killed they thought they were just being hooligans fans screamed to police officers to like from over the gate to unlock the front gate, but the police do nothing, quote, they just seem transfixed.

[408] Like, they didn't know what was going on.

[409] There's nobody in charge telling them how to handle a situation like this.

[410] They've never been prepped for safety, only how to control hooligans, not for, like, fan safety.

[411] Fans try to escape the pen any way they can.

[412] So people in the upper tiers in the level ahead above them, which is like the height of two or three people.

[413] So the people in the pen start lifting other people up.

[414] to the rafters above them and those people lean over and just pull them to safety and it's it's heart wrenching to see that happen horrifying like all all the fans are realizing something is not fucking right and are trying to save each other and help each other and the police at one point think it's hooliganism and they think that they're trying to get onto the field so they start pushing them back down into the pen no yeah it's ugly it's fucking horrible So, yeah, they think that the fans are trying to rush the field when really they're just trying to get to fucking safety.

[415] Yeah.

[416] At 306 p .m., police finally realize people in Penn's three and four are being crushed and tell the referee to stop the game, finally.

[417] Eventually, the small locked gates at the front of the pens are open and fans start cascading out.

[418] I looked it up about there's like a article.

[419] I think it's the Guardian that tells you times, estimated times when people died.

[420] And it's estimated the first person may have died at 257, meaning by 306 p .m. When the police finally realized what was actually going on and unlocked the gate, it had been like 10 minutes of people dying before the authorities intervened.

[421] Meanwhile, okay, this is fucked up too.

[422] There's just a huge game, right?

[423] Like, this is a semifinals, which means people at home are watching the game live on TV.

[424] and listening to it on the radio.

[425] Meaning the people whose family and friends are at this game in the fucking, they know they're in standing room only, are listening and watching this fucking happen.

[426] Oh my God.

[427] Yeah.

[428] So hundreds of people are able to make it out of the pens and onto the field.

[429] Many fans start helping rescue others who are still stuck or are injured because no ambulances had arrived since no authority figures had called them.

[430] Like it took them a while to realize what was even going on and the ambulance too.

[431] were kind of negligent and saying, like, well, we can't send that many ambulances, like what, and they weren't told the enormity of the situation.

[432] So they're still not there.

[433] So fans start ripping down like the advertisements and using them as stretchers to carry the injured to, um, across the field of the gymnasium hoping that they can receive medical attention there.

[434] So like this is not fucking hooligans.

[435] These are fans trying to help save each other.

[436] Yeah.

[437] Yeah, it's truly like, that's all you have is the kindness of the strangers around you.

[438] Totally.

[439] If you're like, if your ribs got crushed and you can't breathe.

[440] Yeah, exactly.

[441] At 315, an ambulance finally makes its way through the crowd.

[442] Depends three and four, one ambulance.

[443] Another ambulance shows up.

[444] Clearly, it's nowhere near enough to help.

[445] Eventually, the gymnasium becomes the makeshift morgue.

[446] Because only 14 of the fans who lost their lives.

[447] were ever even able to make it to the hospital.

[448] That's how long, like, they could have been saved if they had gotten to the hospital, but because there was no ambulances there to take them, only 14 made it.

[449] In total, 96 men, women, and children lost their lives that day.

[450] Oh, my God.

[451] I know.

[452] I only was thinking about men.

[453] I didn't, I did not think about.

[454] Of course there were kids there.

[455] The youngest victim was 10 years old.

[456] Oh, my God.

[457] You bring your kids to the game.

[458] The oldest victims was 67.

[459] You bring your grandpa brings.

[460] Yes, the tradition.

[461] It's tradition.

[462] I mean, like, oh, God, this is horrible.

[463] Two, like, teenage sisters were killed together.

[464] Like, there's an article on ITV news of how and when all 96 victims died.

[465] And it tells you a little bit about each of the victim.

[466] If you want to check that out.

[467] But, yeah, it's, you know, it's heartbreaking.

[468] It's just normal people.

[469] and they went that day with their friends to see this really exciting game that they've probably seen a million like it their whole lives and did not expect this, obviously.

[470] Yeah.

[471] So South Yorkshire police officials, including the chief constable of South Yorkshire police, Peter Wright, are immediately like that evening start casting blame on the fans and the victims themselves.

[472] They allege that they were drunk and disorderly, In fact, Duckenfield, the Yorkshire Police Chief Superintendent David Duckenfield, claims that the fans had forced open that gate, the exit gate, not that he had actually ordered it open to relieve the crowds.

[473] So he lies and says that they were so disorderly, they broke it open.

[474] The media and tabloid outlets start running with this angle that the Liverpool fans are to blame for everything.

[475] They say they broke into the stadium and caused an inrush.

[476] Independs 3 and 4, which caused the fatal crushing.

[477] And also that people who didn't have tickets were part of the reason there were so many people there, which isn't true.

[478] This story is broadcast internationally.

[479] This is the angle that goes out.

[480] And this is the explanation in everyone's minds immediately, which is, you know, the explanation that ends up sticking is whatever comes out first.

[481] On April 19th, the fucking tabloid, the sun publishes a blasphemous front.

[482] page article titled The Truth, which details how Liverpool fans had, quote, assaulted and urinated on police officers who were trying to resuscitate the dying, stolen, like, pickpocketed the dead, and verbally and sexually abused an unconscious woman.

[483] Like, they were, like, just blasting out these rumors.

[484] None of it.

[485] Straight up lies.

[486] Straight up lies that it turns out later were told to them and, like, facilitated by the higher ups.

[487] oh no yeah actually it's later found out that the daughter of chief inspector of south yorkshire police david sumner was one of the people who put in an anonymous tip that she had heard that someone in the crowd like tried to sexually assault a unconscious woman god that's dirty i mean that is very really gross.

[488] That is like, here's a thing.

[489] Accountability really fucks people up sometimes.

[490] It's just like, here's a thing.

[491] If you did wrong and there's a tragedy, what you do is you say you're sorry, you take accountability and then you fucking piece out.

[492] Yeah.

[493] And you take your pension or whatever because.

[494] Or your punishment.

[495] Or your punishment because you shouldn't be in charge anymore because you are on the clock.

[496] you're the one getting the money for being the big guy so something fucks up like that idea has slowly left a kind of humanity where it's just like no you're right go sew some shit in the tabloids that will solve it yeah we can't take accountability for this even though it happened at our fucking stadium on TV on TV with our fucking police force and our security and our ambulance and 96 96 people don't accidentally fucking die.

[497] Like that's not a thing unless it's a legitimate accident, which is even that is so hard to like pin down on what that is because they're still people accountable.

[498] Don't die at a soccer game.

[499] Right.

[500] Right.

[501] All right.

[502] So within days of the disaster, Lord Justice Taylor is appointed to inquire into the events and to quote, make recommendations about the needs of crowd control and safety at sport offense.

[503] On August 1st, 1989, he publishes his report, which concludes that the fans were not responsible for the disaster and the, quote, real cause was overcrowding and the main reason was the failure of police control.

[504] So finally, someone is acknowledging that, but it doesn't last, so I don't cheer yet.

[505] Taylor criticizes senior officers for not closing pens three and four after gate C had been opened and not doing this caused a blunder of the first magnitude, quote.

[506] Taylor points to match commander, chief superintendent, David Duckenfield, for failing to give orders or, quote, exert any control when the disaster occurred.

[507] So not only did he say that he wanted gate C open to get the crowd in, he didn't tell the officers on the ground that he had done that.

[508] So they also thought that this was just a surge of people breaking the door down.

[509] So he lied to everyone about it.

[510] Wow.

[511] Because of his inaction, the police had a, quote, sluggish reaction.

[512] and response which hindered the rescue of dying fans.

[513] Taylor also points to Deckenfield for leading many officials to believe the fans were responsible.

[514] He says, quote, this was not only untruthful.

[515] It also, quote, initiated a vilification campaign directed towards Liverpool fans.

[516] So the whole, you know, society was like, fuck you.

[517] You guys caused this in a way saying you deserve this.

[518] And meanwhile, those who are hurt and dead and the families are having to like fight again.

[519] society blaming them or like yeah this this concept that gets floated because i what i remember from that just like you know the most the remotest files of remembering the story was the picture of people trying to the other fans trying to lift the fans out of that that whole thing and the idea that that's it's like sewing the story that people aren't good right and that's being sewn by people who aren't good.

[520] The people on the ground and the people that were going through it actually displayed the ultimate humanitarian, I care about my fellow man type of thing.

[521] They were doing everything they could.

[522] And that this isn't supposed to happen here.

[523] Another thing that's really disturbing is a lot of these tabloids put photos on the covers of the close -up of people getting crushed against the fence.

[524] So you can see recognizable faces of people possibly already dead.

[525] It's really fucking troubling.

[526] Okay.

[527] So he found that only a small minority of fans had even been drinking, but they didn't cause the overcrowding and there was no hooliganism.

[528] So what follows is decades of the families of the victims being put through hell to try to get justice and answers and for someone to take fucking accountability.

[529] In 1990, the Crown Prosecution Service decides there is insufficient evidence to justify criminal proceedings against anybody from any organizations for any offense arising out of the deaths.

[530] So it's just like, boop, out of sight, out of mind.

[531] Stop fucking worrying about it.

[532] In 1991, an inquest jury returns a verdict of accidental death, meaning it was just a fucking accident.

[533] In 1997, when another inquest is requested, then Prime Minister, it's later found out, Tony Blair, made a note across the paperwork saying, why?

[534] What's the point?

[535] Ooh.

[536] Yeah.

[537] So 20 years go by.

[538] And then in 2009, then labor ministers Andy Burnham and Maria Eagle finally resolve to call for all documents relating to the disaster to be published.

[539] In January 2010, the home security appoints the Hillsborough Independent Panel to do three things.

[540] Investigate the disaster, disclose documents about the disaster and its aftermath, and produce a report.

[541] So finally, in September 2012, the panel publishes its report and a website containing 450 ,000, thousand pages of material.

[542] The panel concludes that the main cause of the disaster was an overall, quote, lack of police control.

[543] Other factors like crowd safety, customs and practices, and the response of police and emergency services also played a part.

[544] It says that as many as 41 deaths could have been averted by better rescue efforts alone.

[545] The 41 human beings.

[546] Some of the findings that were on the day of the disaster, police officers and stewards were only worried about crowd management, not safety.

[547] And they were so busy making sure no hooliganism was going on that they failed to realize all the fatal mistakes, lack of communication between those on Leppings Lane and those inside the stadium.

[548] Just a complete failure and breakdown of, you know, crowd response and crowd control and safety.

[549] It also comes out, police officers who were there that day were discouraged from telling their true account of what they witnessed, giving like false reports and testimony.

[550] 116 officer statements about the incident were changed to remove unfavorable comments about how the South Yorkshire police handled the situation.

[551] For example, the word chaotic was removed from any paperwork.

[552] So it was not to seem like they had anything to do with it.

[553] Following the panel's report, a second coroner's inquest is finally held.

[554] The first one took place in 1991.

[555] And after hearing very biased evidence, the jury found that all victims had died accidentally.

[556] But at the end of the second inquest, the jury finds that all victims were, quote, unlawfully killed, which means someone is responsible for this.

[557] Following the second inquest, six people are charged with various offenses in relation to the Hillsborough disaster.

[558] The most serious of the charges goes to Duck and Field.

[559] He's charged with the 95 counts of manslaughter by gross negligence.

[560] Sadly, after two trials, he's acquitted, leaving the family members of the victim's devastating.

[561] stated and angry over the egregious lack of accountability.

[562] Leader of the House of Commons, Jacob Rees -Mogg, says that the lack of accountability over Hillsborough is, quote, the greatest scandal of British policing of our lifetimes.

[563] Multiple members of parliament call for laws to be changed, quote, to prevent another catastrophic failure of justice.

[564] So like, let's avoid both this kind of disaster from happening again, but let's also make sure that there's some.

[565] accountability if something like this happens again as well by changing the laws like it's just failure after failure because it is a second disaster it's like this horrible thing happens to these people and then the second disaster is they're blamed just picture it your loved one is smashed against a fence on the cover of some fucking piece of shit tabloid like uh it's just it's like a horrible situation and then they went and made it as bad as they possibly could And one of the interviews with a victim's sister, she says that that night they had to go identify her brother's body.

[566] And then they just kept them at the police station like with the people like in a random room, not even treating them like they were victims.

[567] They treated them like troublemakers, like the families of the victims.

[568] Right.

[569] Because they're those, the police are seeing this thing explode in front of them of like, oh, no, all these people have a voice.

[570] All these people are going.

[571] to this is all going to like settle down and then they're going to see what happened and it's that thing of like we fucked up we fucked up we fucked up like don't don't say sorry or you're taking accountability for it or don't be yeah exactly just keep deflecting oh it's it's really ugly really evil so while the families still hope for justice that could possibly never come they maybe find solace and knowing that people haven't forgotten the victims for one thing Rupert Murdoch's The Sun that was so blasphemous and terrible has been completely boycotted in Liverpool.

[572] So it's been 30 fucking years since that happened and people in Liverpool refuse to buy it.

[573] A lot of shops refuse to sell it.

[574] They're just like, fuck you.

[575] It's pretty amazing banning together to just completely tells Robert Murdoch to fuck off.

[576] That makes sense because I'm pretty sure it was the son.

[577] There was a story I did and I had an article from it and several people let me know on Twitter like it's garbage you should not be ever referring to because it's like that kind of stuff over here it's all you know I don't know it's it's seen we see it in a national inquire kind of way where it's like it's so obvious that it's fake right tabloids over here have a goofy kind of you know like bat boy You think of it as this, like, this ridiculous silly thing.

[578] Exactly.

[579] And not as like, well, nowadays.

[580] Not the daily paper.

[581] Yeah, but nowadays you rely upon.

[582] Fake news is just the norm now.

[583] But I think back then it was taken at face value.

[584] Who knows?

[585] There are also nearly 20 memorials erected in memory of the victims.

[586] On the anniversary of the disaster, flags are flown at half -mast.

[587] And many people hold moments of silence or visit memorials to pay their respects for the 96 innocent victims.

[588] of the Hillsborough disaster.

[589] And that is the highest death toll in British sporting history, the Hillsborough disaster.

[590] That's, here's why I love what that you did that story is because in my mind, the hooliganism element of that story is what stuck out.

[591] Is like, is what I kind of had it labeled under.

[592] Yeah.

[593] But it was also such a kind of distant thing.

[594] It was just like, oh, man, they're out of control.

[595] Right.

[596] The idea that it was turned around onto the victims as being like basically they got what they deserve is so disgusting.

[597] Yeah.

[598] It looks like a crowd rioting, but it's fucking not.

[599] Yeah.

[600] Wow.

[601] Great job.

[602] Thank you.

[603] Here's what's interesting.

[604] My story also takes place in foggy old England town.

[605] Oh, all right.

[606] And it's fascinating.

[607] to me. It involves several of the things I find fascinating.

[608] This is the story.

[609] We'll just, oh, so there's no spoilers.

[610] I'll just say this is the story of the Lindo woman.

[611] Okay.

[612] So, so the sources for this, um, science history .org.

[613] There's an article called Bodies in the Bog, the Lindo Mysteries by Dave Samet and Chantel Craig, the beauty who wed a beast, uh, from the Liverpool Echo newspaper, unearthing the living dead from the male.

[614] and Guardian.

[615] Europe's famed bog bodies are starting to reveal their secrets by Joshua Levine and Smithsonian Magazine.

[616] I actually went down a real Smithsonian Magazine.

[617] I bet.

[618] As there's so many, there's like, as they're discovering stuff, they're just, they're doing the things of like looking into the stomachs and being like, now this, this was here and they're trying to figure out if they were human sacrifices, were they drugged beforehand so that it wasn't such a negative experience.

[619] But then, you know, it's also like what do they what did they have on their on their persons like what was in their pockets and what was what were they buried with kind of a thing.

[620] So cool.

[621] The Britishmuseum .org has a web page called Curators comments that there's great information on.

[622] And then of course there's the Linda woman's Wikipedia page.

[623] Very cool.

[624] This takes place in northwest England.

[625] So in Cheshire County, there's a 1500 acre bog called.

[626] lindo moss and it formed after the ice from the last ice age melted about 11 ,000 years ago and the wet acidic conditions of the swampy land leads to the formation of peat, which is decomposed vegetable matter.

[627] And so when you cut and dry out peat and peat moss, it serves as fuel or mineral -rich soil for crops.

[628] I love a good peat bog or good bog.

[629] So like creepy and like so creepy mysterious well and back in the like the druid times right they believed that bogs were where because it's basically bogs take place there's no there can't be trees around so it's like under an open sky there's water and land mixed together in this mysterious ways and sometimes the bog would release gases and the gases mixed with any kind of a low -lying fog would look like sparkles and people thought they were fairies.

[630] Sure.

[631] And so for a long time, people believed that bogs were like a place, like a portal to another world.

[632] Because that's where, right?

[633] It makes me think of the labyrinth.

[634] I don't know why.

[635] Like a boggy, creepy.

[636] Yes, like somewhere where like a hero and a unicorn would get stuck.

[637] Totally.

[638] And maybe and try to make it out.

[639] Right.

[640] Or the never -ending story.

[641] Yeah.

[642] sure so essentially the in the 1400s and the 1500s the locals would dig for pete and first they'd do it by hand which made me think of the hilarious scene from monny python's holy grail where it's like i'm not a man i'm a woman you know the thing where the the guy he's like i'm your king and they're like they're just digging in the mud that is what people did yeah because Because they used it to, they used it like coal, and they also used it for their crops.

[643] So they would dig by hand, then later, after the Industrial Revolution, by mechanical excavators, to be sold and used for fuel and soil.

[644] So on May 13, 1983, two peat diggers, Andy Mould, and Stephen Dooley, they're manning one of these excavation conveyor belts when they see a round object sticking out of the peat.

[645] So they think it must be an old soccer ball, so they take it off the belts.

[646] But when they clean off the dirt, they see it's actually a human skull.

[647] It's missing a jaw bone.

[648] But other than that, it's almost an intact human head.

[649] There's still hair, skin, and even an eyeball in one sock.

[650] Oh, my God.

[651] So they immediately alert their manager, a man named Ken Harwood, and Ken calls the police.

[652] So basically, they do some forensic testing.

[653] And they learn, the authorities learn the school.

[654] most likely belong to a woman who was being between 30 and 50 years old.

[655] And immediately, the cops think of a case that has been like basically in the area and gone cold and unsolved for a really long time.

[656] And it's the 161 disappearance of a woman named Malika de Fernandez.

[657] So the investigators had always suspected that her husband, Peter Rhine Bart, had murdered her, but because they'd never found her body, they couldn't prove anything, and the case had been cold for 23 years.

[658] So now they think they've got their big break.

[659] So in the 1950s, we'll talk about Malika first and her husband.

[660] So in the 50s, 32 -year -old Malika Maria D. Fernandez is working as a portrait artist, and she works part -time as a waitress at a coffee shop in Manchester, probably a tea shop but I want you to understand what I'm talking about so I'll say a coffee shop thank you so one even appreciate you right right mm -hmm that's called supporting you that's called translating for you so one evening in 1959 she's serving tea to an executive for the British Overseas Corporation and his name is Peter Ryan Bart the two quickly hit it off in less than two hours after meeting.

[661] Peter proposes to Malika.

[662] What?

[663] And they get married four days later.

[664] No. Yes.

[665] Okay.

[666] Here's the thing.

[667] This is not love at first sight like we'd want to believe it is.

[668] Because it's kind of more of a business arrangement.

[669] Peter is actually gay.

[670] Oh.

[671] But at this time in England, being openly gay is against the law.

[672] And it would remain illegal in England until until 1967.

[673] So if anyone found out that Peter was living as a gay man, he could lose his job, he could face jail time.

[674] So basically, marrying Malika provides the cover that he needs while he meets secretly with his real lover in real life, a man named Philip Clark.

[675] And for Malika, being married to a kind of a rich airline employee means that she can get cheap airline tickets and she can travel much more, which is something she loves to do.

[676] do.

[677] So it works for both of them.

[678] Yeah.

[679] It only lasts a couple months.

[680] Peter and Malika get a divorce by the end of 1959.

[681] And Peter and Philip moved to a cottage in the affluent Manchester suburb of Wilmslow.

[682] But Malika stays in touch and according to Peter, she regularly hits him up for money.

[683] So sometime in 1960, 1961, Malika goes missing.

[684] And when police eventually tracked down or last known movements, they learned Malika had recently paid a visit to Peter's Cottage.

[685] When they go to question him about her and her whereabouts, he denies knowing anything about her disappearance.

[686] And he explains that Malika is an avid traveler, so she could actually be anywhere.

[687] But the investigators are very suspicious.

[688] So they search Peter's Cottage and they dig up the surrounding yard around the cottage, but they don't find anything.

[689] There's no evidence to hold Peter on.

[690] He's free to go about his life.

[691] And between 1961 and 1963, he moves all around England making a sizable living from his catering business.

[692] He also owns several coffee shops and fish and chip shops.

[693] And he rents out a guest home.

[694] So he's basically took his money from his fancy airline job.

[695] And now he's, you know, figured out ways to make more money.

[696] So as Peter makes a comfortable living for himself in this new chapter of his life, Malika's case goes cold.

[697] So he, Peter, eventually settles in Portsmouth along England's South Coast in 1963.

[698] So 12 years later, Peter meets a man named Paul Corrigan, and they begin to run a cabaret club together called the Northcote Hotel.

[699] And they make a bunch of money on it.

[700] And Peter actually has enough money to buy more real estate.

[701] He even buys an apartment in Malta.

[702] So he's doing very well for himself.

[703] But these two men are not just business partners.

[704] They have actually a very dark connection because when they're not managing this nightclub, they roam the streets of Portsmouth looking for young boys to kidnap and sexually assaults.

[705] What?

[706] Yes.

[707] When they're finally caught and arrested in 1977, they're both sentenced to seven years in prison.

[708] And they only serve four.

[709] They're, so they're both released in January of 1981.

[710] Okay, so Paul Corrigan's freedom doesn't last long because just one year after his release from jail, he kidnaps, rapes, tortures, and kills a 13 -year -old boy named John Haddon.

[711] So Paul Corgan's arrested soon after, and he returns to prison with a life sentence.

[712] So that story in and of itself and on its own is crazy and horrifying.

[713] that basically these two would turn out to be like violent pedophiles find each other and then yeah it's horrible Paul Gorgon ends up going to jail for the rest of his life though but when he basically is arrested he immediately is like hey just so you know when I was in jail Peter Ryan Bart told me that he killed his wife Malika D. Fernandez so the police track Peter down.

[714] He now lives in Knightsbridge in London, and they question him again, but again, he denies having anything to do with Malik's disappearance, and there is no evidence except for a child murderer's word to go on, so there's nothing that the authorities can do, and Peter remains free.

[715] But all of that changes two years later on May 13, 1983, with this discovery of the skull in the Lindo Moss bog.

[716] So basically, they find this head and the investigators remember this guy, know that he was, you know, basically a contemporary of Paul Corrigan, this monster person.

[717] And they're like, this, this guy, being around this woman who has just disappeared off the face of the earth, cannot be good.

[718] Like, this is not, you know, this is not a good guy.

[719] So investigators once again track down Peter Reinhbart about a month after the skull is found.

[720] So this time they finally have evidence.

[721] They have a body.

[722] When they inform Peter that a woman's body has been found that matches the description of Malika, he finally confesses to murdering his ex -wife.

[723] He tells police, quote, it's been so long I thought I would never be found out.

[724] So in his statement to police, Peter says that Malika came over to his cottage sometime around 161, 60 or 61.

[725] No one's sure about that date.

[726] but that she was demanding money and she was threatening that if he doesn't pay her that she's going to out him to the world as a gay man. So he would lose his job and he would probably get arrested or at least be, you know, in the police's eye.

[727] Yeah.

[728] So this is all according to Peters as one -sided story.

[729] But basically he says a fight breaks out and he says, quote, something just boiled over inside me. He says he strangled Malika to death.

[730] He dismembered her.

[731] and then he tried to burn her remains.

[732] But when that didn't work, he placed her body parts in sacks and buried them out in the bog near the edge of his property.

[733] So basically, now the investigators take this confession.

[734] They go back to Lindo Moss, and they try to find the rest of Malika's remains.

[735] But after a thorough search, they don't find anything.

[736] And this gnaw is at the lead detective.

[737] His name is Detective Inspector George Abbott.

[738] He's got enough evidence to put Peter away, but he still sends the skull to the lab at Oxford University in October 1983 to take a closer look at it.

[739] And when the lab results come back several weeks later, investigators are stunned by what they learn.

[740] Radiocarbon dating shows that the skull could not have belonged to Malika D. Fernandez because it's more than 17 centuries old.

[741] And it dates back to the year 250 AD.

[742] Holy shit.

[743] Okay.

[744] So now I'm going to get to talk to you about one of truly a thing in the world that I think is the most fascinating, which are bog bodies.

[745] Bodies in the bog, baby.

[746] Bodies in the bog, right?

[747] Fascinating.

[748] So if you have ever read National Geographic magazine while you waited for your parents to be done at a dinner party, you know about bog bodies like I do.

[749] Mm -hmm.

[750] So, but I'm going to, I'll give you a little walk here now.

[751] Jay did this research.

[752] He did an amazing job.

[753] And I was like, please make the Bog -Barty part as long as you want to because I find it fascinating.

[754] I'm obsessed.

[755] I'm so, I'm so excited about this.

[756] Okay, good.

[757] So for the last few hundred years, the incredibly well -preserved bodies of men and women from thousands of years ago have been discovered in Denmark, in the Netherlands, in Ireland, in the UK, in northern Germany, and even in North America.

[758] America.

[759] And the one thing that they all have in common is that they were found in bogs.

[760] But not just any kind of bog will preserve a human body.

[761] There are four primary factors that make up the perfect conditions.

[762] First of all, the bog must have a specific type of moss called spagnum moss.

[763] Okay.

[764] Definitely pronouncing that wrong.

[765] Second, the bog has to be moist year round.

[766] It can't dry out at any time.

[767] And third, the bog soil must remain at a maximum temperature of 39 degrees when the body is buried and the average annual temperature of the region has to stay below 50 degrees so basically now here's the this is kind of detailed part but it's pretty fascinating so this spagnum moss is very specific kind of moss it sits on top of a watery surface of the bog and it makes the water way more acidic than normal and that acidity destroys the minerals that would otherwise contaminant the water and live moss dies.

[768] It sinks to the bottom of the water.

[769] It undergoes its own decaying process.

[770] That dead moss breaks down.

[771] It releases sugars and humic acids.

[772] And then the remaining live moss on top acts as a sort of seal.

[773] So it protects the body beneath from any sort of outside interference.

[774] Wow.

[775] So like a perfect, this like perfect stew for preserving a body.

[776] Yes.

[777] And those conditions create a preservation matter that's more efficient than the mummification process used in ancient Egypt.

[778] Wow.

[779] Mostly because it's nature doing it and it's accidental.

[780] Sure.

[781] But instead of decaying normally, bog bodies kept in these conditions, they end up tanning like leather.

[782] And even human hair can remain intact, although it turns this coppery red color.

[783] So when they first found bog bodies, they thought the people were redheaded.

[784] And then they like, science slowly revealed that it was not just these like redheaded people being sacrificed by their tribe or whatever.

[785] Sure.

[786] It's just what the bog is doing.

[787] So one of the most famous bog bodies, and this is the got this is the bog body that was featured in National Geographic or at least the first one I ever saw.

[788] Yeah.

[789] And it's the Tolland man of Denmark.

[790] He was discovered in 1950, but his body dated back to the fourth century BC.

[791] in the pre -Roman Iron Age.

[792] The Tallinn man is so well preserved that he looks like a silvery gray old man who's sleeping in the fetal position.

[793] But he has all the features of his face, the skin on his face.

[794] He even has like a three -day beard growth.

[795] It's so detailed for someone that from that long ago.

[796] It's unbelievable.

[797] And it looks like he's been spray -painted dark silver.

[798] Yeah.

[799] It's really the tin man kind of.

[800] kind of?

[801] Yes, except for dark.

[802] The tin part would be darker.

[803] Okay.

[804] And he literally looks like he's sleeping and he kind of looks like he's smiling.

[805] Okay, I've seen this for sure.

[806] As a kid, how terrified were you when you saw that?

[807] No, I loved it.

[808] You did?

[809] Well, because, yes, like all the, the skin is kept on.

[810] Yeah.

[811] And there's internal organs and stuff in them.

[812] They have actually, they've done autopsies of bog bodies and, like, dissect and seen the brains and stuff and gone through.

[813] And, like, that's, you know, on the Tolland man, his stomach and intestinal tract were intact.

[814] Oh, my God.

[815] And they figured out what he ate that day.

[816] Like, that's how intact this human being was from so long ago.

[817] It's just so fascinating.

[818] Was it a sandwich?

[819] Did he have a sandwich?

[820] It was burnt porridge.

[821] No. Yes.

[822] Oh, my God.

[823] Yes.

[824] It's, so basically, here's the, another fascinating aspect.

[825] He has a leather garret.

[826] around his neck.

[827] So it suggests the possibility he was murdered.

[828] Or he was a human sacrifice.

[829] And this is a common feature in bog bodies.

[830] Many are found with evidence of blunt force trauma, suffocation, slashed throats.

[831] And it's basically because archaeologists can't know what they were doing right before, they were put in the bog.

[832] They can't tell because some sacrifice, like the, there's some, some bog body.

[833] are what they call triple killed where they're like stabbed and and they say that's very common for ritual sacrifice and it makes sense if it were ritual sacrifice because if the temperatures were that low it must have meant they probably were like it losing crops or they you know what I mean they were sacrificing to whoever putting bodies in the bog because the thinking back then was they got so much from the bog by being able to use the peat in all those different ways that they had to give back.

[834] So they've found weapons in bogs.

[835] They've found ancient, they found a book from like, yes, they've found stuff in there and plus bodies.

[836] So it isn't necessarily just people trying to hide a murder victim or whatever.

[837] They think they were used kind of ritualistically because they were seen as these places between worlds.

[838] And as like, as someone is obsessed with with metal detecting, this is my fucking dream.

[839] Can you imagine?

[840] Right?

[841] Right.

[842] Does a metal detector work on a bog?

[843] Probably not.

[844] I would wonder, because it has to be, it's like damp and mucky.

[845] It's just like a big, it's like a pond that somebody filled with dirt.

[846] Yeah.

[847] But like straw.

[848] Yeah.

[849] Anyway, we're moss, I guess.

[850] We're scientists.

[851] We're scientists.

[852] That's not the confusing part.

[853] You're a bog doctor.

[854] That's why.

[855] Thank you for asking that question.

[856] So it made it look like I just know this stuff off the top of my head and not that it's just the next sentence on the page of like, um, he'd eaten porridge 12 to 24 hours before he dead.

[857] Oh, you just knew that.

[858] I couldn't believe it.

[859] Gosh, she's so educated.

[860] Okay.

[861] So this, of course, then it goes wide, right?

[862] That it's like, oh, this, this skull that was found is from thousands of years ago.

[863] Which is very important and, you know, archaeologically significant.

[864] And so of course, Peter Ryan Bart recants his detailed confession about how he killed his brief wife I just see him like tugging on his collar going uh oh yes I didn't even have to it's kind of the perfect like for this to happen to anybody yeah this guy seems to be the kind of person that's like that's really awesome that this it's a terrible misunderstanding yes and usually it's a it's a tragedy but it In this case, this guy, it's perfect.

[865] You belong in another fucking present, dude.

[866] Okay.

[867] So now he's armed with this new spin on his previous confession story.

[868] So he heads to trial on December 11, 1983.

[869] And on the second day of the trial, Peter takes the stand and tells the court that he saw Malika in June of 1960 or 61.

[870] The beginning of his story remains the same.

[871] Malika stopped by the cottage that he shared with his male partner in Wimslow and asked, Peter for money he said no then the new account is when he refused to pay she not only threatened to expose his homosexuality but she also quote lunged at his face with her long fingernails and quote so he claims he acted in self -defense grabbing her by the shoulders and shaking her and the next thing he knew she was dead Jesus basically when he's questioned about what he did with the body at this point he says quote I was terrified and I could not think clearly the only thing that came to mind was to hide her.

[872] So he takes an axe, chops her up, buries her remains in a drainage ditch along the edge of Lindo Moss, just 300 yards from his cottage.

[873] So the trial lasts three days, and on December 14th, 1983, after a three -hour deliberation, the jury finds 57 -year -old Peter Reindbart guilty of murder of Malika Maria D. Fernandez 23 years after.

[874] after her death.

[875] Wow.

[876] And he's sentenced to life in prison.

[877] So he goes to prison.

[878] Finally, a cold case is closed.

[879] Basically, a year later, this same peatigger, Andy Mold, yet again, makes another disturbing discovery in Lindo Moss.

[880] He pulls what he thinks is a piece of wood off of a conveyor belt.

[881] But then after they clean it off, he realizes, and the worker see, it has toenails.

[882] So the crew realizes they've just found a human leg and once again they call the police who come, they shut the work site down and they're hoping that they're finding Malika's remains.

[883] But meanwhile Cheshire County archaeologist Rick Turner catches wind about this discovery so he goes down to Lindo Moss and in addition to that leg they end up finding a flap of skin which then leads them to the discovery of the rest of this body and when the remains are sent out for radiocarbon testing again it's another ancient bog body they determined that these body parts belong to a man in his early 20s he was about 5 '6 he weighed anywhere from 132 to 143 pounds he had neatly manicured fingernails and his facial hair had been cut with shears so they knew that he was probably a wealthy person yeah And they basically dubbed him the Lindo Man or Lindo 2.

[884] So the woman's skull was Lindo 1.

[885] This is Lindo 2.

[886] And this would not be the last body found at Lindo Moss.

[887] In 1987, a third headless body, Lindo 3 is discovered.

[888] It's also found to be from the Iron Age.

[889] And there are theories that the skull from Lindo 1 that was originally found belongs to the Lindo 3 body.

[890] either that there's a whole other fucking head down there somewhere I mean it's crazy dig it all up I want to see everything down there drain the bog drain the bogs so further inspection of Lindo Man shows that he was murdered that there's blows to the head they think it was by axe a blunt object broke his neck and one of his ribs and the skin on this body is so well preserved that you can even see markings on his neck from a possible hanging or strangulation.

[891] And on top of that, his throat was sliced ear to ear.

[892] So this is one of the situations where they believe that's the sign of a human sacrifice.

[893] Or it could have been an execution because I feel like back then and the, you know, they'd overkill.

[894] They'd torture you.

[895] So it could have been like an execution.

[896] I mean, sure.

[897] It could really be anything.

[898] Yeah.

[899] But they also overkill for human sacrifice.

[900] Right.

[901] So, you know.

[902] Yeah, because they would, you know, they would, if you were, there were a lot of archaeologists that believe that these were criminals.

[903] Right.

[904] Because they would always hang criminals.

[905] And then, but that, then there's other people who say, but the bog was like this sacred place.

[906] So it was actually an honor to be put in like the, the Lindo man, he was clearly rich.

[907] Oh, I see.

[908] Like his clothes contained fibers that weren't from the area.

[909] So he had probably had money.

[910] And this was probably, there's theories that being placed there meant that it was an honor.

[911] Right.

[912] Iron age shit.

[913] It's hard to relate to now.

[914] So today, Lindo Man's remains are held at the British Museum in London.

[915] And after being removed from the bog and studied, Lindo Man was submerged in a chemical called polyethylene glycol which prevented him from from drying out basically you know what the lindo man looks like if the picture that i saw was him it looks a lot like the the cover of that one radio head album oh it's kind of like it looks a little bit like that where he's he's not silvery the lindo man is uh is kind of a yellow heat it has that kind of tanned yeah um tanned look.

[916] So even though they made all those discoveries of these additional bodies, to this day, Malika D. Fernandez's remains have never been found.

[917] And that is the story of the murder of Malika D. Fernandez and the discovery of the bog body, the Lindo Man. Karen, that's one of those stories where I'm like, damn, I wish I had picked that one before you had because I like it so much.

[918] Well, I'm like, how come I didn't know about this one when we were doing shows in the UK?

[919] Totally.

[920] It's a perfect, because, I mean, it's a story within a story within a story.

[921] It is.

[922] It's crazy.

[923] Oh, it's so weird that we both did UK stories or England stories.

[924] Great job.

[925] That was an adventure, like a fucked up adventure.

[926] So fucked up.

[927] Yeah.

[928] So fucked up.

[929] Is it time to do some fucking hooray?

[930] Let's do some fucking hoorays.

[931] Let's do it.

[932] Okay, this first one's from Dreya Girl on Instagram.

[933] Are we still doing fucking arrays?

[934] We don't know.

[935] We don't know.

[936] We don't know either.

[937] Biggest fucking hooray ever.

[938] All of my student loans have been forgiven.

[939] I can finally start the home buying process and I have waited years to find a forever house for me and my kids.

[940] So blessed fucking hooray.

[941] Wow.

[942] Thank God.

[943] Yeah.

[944] Forgive those loans.

[945] Okay.

[946] This is from Kayla O 'Hare on Twitter.

[947] She's at JubeCube.

[948] She says, My fucking hurry is when I was younger, my mom would tell me that I was the first grandchild born after the death of my grandfather, and I helped pull my Nan Alice out of her funk.

[949] And now, 36 years later, on October 4th, my nan is turning 100.

[950] Oh, Nan Alice, happy birthday.

[951] Oh, my God.

[952] A hundred.

[953] A hundred years old.

[954] What a badass you are.

[955] That's so rad.

[956] Okay.

[957] This one is from the fan cult.

[958] My fucking array this week is that my two best friends on this earth married each other in the privacy of their front yard.

[959] The ceremony was planned within one week and had to be kept a secret as their parents don't approve of gay marriage.

[960] While sad and difficult for both of them, I've never seen two people happier together and more healthy before.

[961] See and Elise, I love you.

[962] I support you.

[963] be my sisters and I will always relish in being part of your chosen family together.

[964] Fucking array for honest love, Christina and Atlanta.

[965] Oh, I know.

[966] I love that.

[967] I know, chosen family.

[968] That's just, I love that saying so much.

[969] Yeah, I mean, there's a lot of people that have to live that way and really make the best of it in that way where it's like, you know, I've been, I have a gigantic family and extended family.

[970] have been to tons of weddings.

[971] And if you're at a wedding where everyone is so stoked for the two people getting married and the love is real, I mean, that's the point of having families.

[972] Yeah.

[973] So whether you're quote unquote real or, you know, chosen family, whatever, it's like they're the ones doing it right.

[974] Totally.

[975] It's so beautiful.

[976] Congratulations, you guys.

[977] Yeah, congratulations.

[978] With this.

[979] After three years of people.

[980] after three years of people asking me what I wanted for Christmas, my birthday Mother's Day, etc. And me telling them a fan cult membership, I finally said, fuck it, and I bought my own.

[981] I'm probably way more excited than I should be, but oh well, it makes me happy, and that's all that matters.

[982] Honestly, after my only sister passed away unexpectedly in 2018, my new motto is that life is too short to not do what makes me happy.

[983] So there.

[984] Stay sexy and buy your own happy.

[985] Venus.

[986] Heidi and Wyoming.

[987] Hi.

[988] You're beautiful.

[989] Thank you.

[990] Thank you for your support.

[991] We appreciate you.

[992] And we're starting to do more videos and do more stuff for the fan cult because we've, you know, when we took our break, we took our break from everything.

[993] Yeah.

[994] So we're just starting to get that stuff fired up again.

[995] And we're very excited to be doing it.

[996] So Heidi, welcome, you know, we're glad you're with us.

[997] We're glad you're all with us.

[998] what a bunch of badasses our listeners are and we're so fucking honored every time every single time I meet one I met a few when I was in Santa Barbara over the weekend and every single fucking time they're rad women like every time okay this one uh says hey Karen Georgia and everyone with paws and mustaches my fucking array this week is that I'm finally after four years of trying getting treatment for my borderline personality disorder and also out of the relationship that was making it worse.

[999] Y 'all have helped me countless times when I didn't feel like I had anyone to turn to.

[1000] I would just turn on your podcast and have something other to focus on than my raging mental health disorders.

[1001] Thank you for helping me and many others, Zyla.

[1002] And then it says, an 18 year old who has seen Beetlejuice.

[1003] Zyla, congratulations.

[1004] I'm so, it makes me so happy to hear that you're taking care of business.

[1005] amazing.

[1006] Yeah.

[1007] That's the first fucking step, man, is just to like try.

[1008] Get in there.

[1009] Yeah.

[1010] Do the work.

[1011] Got it.

[1012] You might as well.

[1013] That's right.

[1014] Yeah.

[1015] Very brave.

[1016] Yes.

[1017] Okay.

[1018] Let's see.

[1019] This one's from the fan cult forum.

[1020] It's from Kim's of FPC.

[1021] And it says, so this year I started to become a court appointed special advocate, which basically is like big brothers, big sisters, but for kids in foster care.

[1022] And my role is to get to know my kid so I can tell the court what she wants and needs after months of training and then waiting to find out who my kid would be i finally got assigned a teenage girl to be my casa kid when i went to meet her and was i was warned she was shy and slow to open up while i was making small talk i asked her what her favorite tv show was and her response accident suicide murder immediately i asked if she had seen the paul Holes episodes.

[1023] And of course, she had and we immediately began fan -girling.

[1024] My fucking hooray is that our mutual love of Paul Holes and curiosity about true crime seemed to get her out of her shell and she's opening up to me more.

[1025] Thank you, Karen and Georgia, for introducing me to Paul Holes and giving me something to break the ice with a kid who is normally hesitant to trust adults.

[1026] Oh, my God.

[1027] I love it.

[1028] That got me. Did it get you?

[1029] That got me. Well, it's such, it's such important work.

[1030] So thank you Kim's of FPC for doing that work and for making the effort to connect with that kid.

[1031] That's one of those jobs that I think are so important for people to know about because you think of fostering and you're like, well, I don't have room or time in my life to foster, but there's little things you can do within the foster care system to help kids that aren't these huge undertakings.

[1032] It's that the ad, what is it called again?

[1033] Court appointed special advocate.

[1034] Right.

[1035] So that you can do that that isn't as big of a commitment, but it's still so necessary and important.

[1036] So I fucking love that.

[1037] And I love that she was able to connect over true crime.

[1038] That's great.

[1039] And over our love also of Paul Holes, which just by the way, Paul Holes is coming out with a book, his first like biographical book called Unmasked, My Life Solving America's Cold Cases.

[1040] So awesome.

[1041] So congrats Paul.

[1042] It's rad.

[1043] Mr. Paul Holes.

[1044] Well, thanks for listening, you guys.

[1045] Thanks for sending us in.

[1046] Send us your fucking hurries any way you can.

[1047] And, yeah, thanks for being a part of this, you know, this conversation.

[1048] This sometimes depressing, sometimes horrifying, but oftentimes fun conversation.

[1049] Sometimes uplifting, too.

[1050] Who to thunk it in a true crime murder podcast.

[1051] Yeah, we try.

[1052] We do our best.

[1053] We do our best.

[1054] All right.

[1055] Stay sexy.

[1056] And don't get murdered.

[1057] Goodbye.

[1058] Elvis, do you want a cookie?

[1059] This has been an exactly right production.

[1060] Our producer is Hannah Kyle Crichton.

[1061] Associate producer Alejandra Keck.

[1062] Engineer and mixer.

[1063] Stephen.

[1064] Ray Morris.

[1065] Researchers, Jay Elias and Haley Gray.

[1066] Send us your hometowns and your fucking hoorays at my favorite murder at gmail .com.

[1067] And follow the show on Instagram and Facebook at My Favorite Murder and Twitter.

[1068] at my fave murder.

[1069] And for more information about this podcast, our live shows, merch, or to join the fan cult, go to my favoritemerder .com.

[1070] Rate review and subscribe.