335 - Black and Missing with Natalie and Derrica Wilson

[0] This is exactly right.

[1] And welcome to my favorite murder.

[2] That's Georgia Hard Star.

[3] That's Karen Gilgara.

[4] We have a very special episode today.

[5] We're very honored to have these guests with us for the past 14 years.

[6] These two women have dedicated their lives to searching for missing people of color whose cases have gone cold or were never investigated in the first place.

[7] They're the founders of the Black and Missing Foundation.

[8] And their work has led to the resolution of over 400 missing persons cases.

[9] And their story was made into an HBO.

[10] series called Black and Missing, and that just won the best new documentary series at the Independent Spirit Awards this year.

[11] So please welcome Natalie Wilson and Derricka Wilson.

[12] Hello, thank you for having us.

[13] Yes, thank you.

[14] Yes, thanks for being here.

[15] So excited and honored to have you both here and to discuss your incredible work that you guys are doing.

[16] But first, can we be superficial and say, did you get to go to the Independent Spirit Awards yourselves or did you watch it on TV?

[17] Yeah, we didn't get to go to that, but recently we went to L .A. for the Gracies.

[18] And oh my God, it was such an amazing experience.

[19] What happened?

[20] Will you tell us about it?

[21] You know, just being able to be honored to accept the award for the directors of the HBO docu -series Black and Missing.

[22] And to meet people that we have seen, you know, and have always wanted to meet and work with to see them.

[23] It was just, it was an amazing experience.

[24] So who'd you get to meet?

[25] So we met Tamron Hall.

[26] We met Ava Duvenir.

[27] We met Holly Robinson Pete and she was the mistress of ceremony.

[28] And Derek will tell you, I was fanning out.

[29] I saw Maria Taylor.

[30] And my husband and I, we watch her and we've seen her, you know, grow in the instance.

[31] and the challenges that she faced.

[32] And to just meet her in person was amazing.

[33] Like I said, I normally don't fan out, but I was fanning out.

[34] She was fanning out.

[35] I was shocked.

[36] Yes.

[37] Out of everyone that we met, I think, I was like, oh, my God, Maria Taylor.

[38] And then she's such a nice person because she said, let's FaceTime your husband.

[39] And we were both screaming like, oh, my God, yes.

[40] So it was great.

[41] I am here to tell you that I have known Natalie for like 20 years.

[42] We're a sister -in -law, and I've never seen her act like that before.

[43] I was shocked.

[44] I was like, who was this woman and what did she do to my sister -in -law?

[45] I love it.

[46] There's nothing better than meeting a person who makes you lose your cool.

[47] That's such a next -level, exciting experience, right?

[48] It was.

[49] And I think, again, it was just from seeing her grow when she first, started in sports and to hear about some of the things that she had to go through.

[50] And we were rooting for her, praying for her, and just, you know, wanted her to do well.

[51] So to see her there, it's like, oh, my gosh.

[52] Wow.

[53] Love that.

[54] And then to be winners yourselves at a thing like that where there's people all around you that you recognize and then you're the ones being honored as well.

[55] And I think that's still trying to resonate.

[56] I know for me personally, You know, we didn't get into this for the accolades.

[57] I mean, we are very passionate about our work.

[58] And for us to look at these incredible women for the graces who are being honored and to watch them on television and to see their stories and to be inspired and to actually have the opportunity to share the same space.

[59] And for them to embrace us, you know, as we have embraced them for many years, it's really, it's really overwhelming.

[60] overwhelming.

[61] I bet.

[62] Yeah.

[63] It seems really special because I think for both of you and for a lot of people who have these passions and then they work their butts off and that's all they do all the time.

[64] And then to be able to stop and look around and see the people who are so passionate about what you're doing as well in person at an award show must be a special feeling, I would imagine.

[65] Absolutely.

[66] Yeah.

[67] And again, it's about partnerships.

[68] So to see them there and wanting them to work alongside.

[69] us, you know, to get that opportunity to continue to spread awareness about this issue because they have, you know, huge platforms.

[70] And they have that network that can help us, you know, find some of these missing individuals.

[71] Well, that's the thing that in watching the show that I thought was such an amazing, fateful combination it feels like for two sisters -in -law, Natalie, you have a PR background.

[72] Like you worked for over a decade, still do, right?

[73] In PR.

[74] Correct.

[75] And Derricka, you're the first black female police officer in Falls Church, Virginia, in the police department there.

[76] And then you come together to basically start solving this problem of missing black people whose cases just get ignored by the media.

[77] I mean, it seems so faithful that two of you have these specialty skills that really punch through the average family that's just trying to fly.

[78] a neighborhood and ask questions and do foot searches.

[79] How did you guys get together and say this is something we have to start doing?

[80] Well, I'll tell you a little bit about the inspiration behind the Black and Missing Foundation.

[81] It started around the case of Tamika Houston, who went missing from Derricka's hometown of Spartanburg, South Carolina.

[82] And we read how her family, particularly her aunt, who's in public relations, really struggled to get that national media coverage around her disappearance.

[83] Weeks later, Lori Hacken went missing, and she dominated the news cycle.

[84] A year later, Natalie Holloway went missing.

[85] She dominated the news cycle.

[86] And sadly, Tamika's aunt contacted those same reporters, same networks, same programs, and there was no interest in Tamika's story at all.

[87] So when Derek and I decided to do some research on this issue, we found that 30 % of all persons missing were of color.

[88] and particularly black men.

[89] So we decided, why not us?

[90] We need to utilize our professions.

[91] As you mentioned, I'm in media relations, public relations, Derrick's and law enforcement.

[92] And those are the two critical professions needed to bring awareness to this issue.

[93] And if you fast forward to today, 40 % of all persons missing are of color.

[94] And we've been pounding the pavement and sounding the alarm for 14 ,000, years that this is an issue and we need help to find them and to bring them home.

[95] But what keeps us motivated and keeps us going are these families that are desperately searching for their missing loved ones.

[96] And oftentimes they say, you are our last resort.

[97] We don't know what to do.

[98] So we're holding their hand and we're working alongside them through this process.

[99] I remember there was a mother In St. Louis, when we first got started, she didn't know what to do.

[100] Her daughter was missing.

[101] She contacted the media, law enforcement.

[102] We contacted the media and law enforcement.

[103] And, you know, there were so many challenges.

[104] But we kept pushing.

[105] And finally, one of the news media outlets said, you know, I'll cover the story.

[106] So that's what we're trying to do, bring about visibility because it brings about change.

[107] And it could help someone to be recovered quite quickly.

[108] quickly.

[109] Yeah.

[110] And that pressure.

[111] I mean, there's families who just, they just don't know who to call because oftentimes we know that like the pressure on the investigators to keep working or to try harder or to double down, that has to come from somewhere.

[112] And if it's just a parent or a spouse that is just trying to find someone, that one person can't do it by themselves.

[113] You're right.

[114] They can.

[115] Absolutely.

[116] And I think it's equally important for everyone to understand law enforcement, they are the gatekeepers and they have to be held accountable.

[117] You know, when these families are going to them, they have a responsibility to take these police reports to actually investigate the case.

[118] You know, sadly, missing persons isn't considered a priority.

[119] So there's not enough resources that are dedicated to the missing person unit.

[120] You can have police departments across this country and they may have one or two detectives assigned to the case.

[121] And those one or two detectives could be handling anywhere between five and 800 cases.

[122] So again, with that medium pressure, it applies pressure to law enforcement to dedicate more resources.

[123] And ultimately, it is our hope that these missing person units are viewed as the homicide units within the police departments because it is an issue.

[124] You know, again, as Natalie stated, 40 % of missing persons are persons of color.

[125] Although we know the numbers are much higher than that, you know, and we're talking about report it.

[126] That's the key word.

[127] When you think about the statistics that are out there that the FBI shares, you know, you have a population that is classified with the white community.

[128] And I'm speaking of the Hispanic community, although 25 % of Hispanics identify as Latino Black.

[129] What are some of the misconceptions do you think among law enforcement, speaking of them, and the media as well?

[130] that prevent missing people of color from getting that attention?

[131] Well, one issue that we see with law enforcement is that oftentimes when our children are reported missing, law enforcement classify them as runaways.

[132] We know runaways do not receive the Amber Alert.

[133] Quite frankly, there's no sense of urgency.

[134] I mean, look at society right now.

[135] If you were to go on social media and you see a flyer that says missing and a flyer that says runaway, the messaging is not created equal.

[136] And there's this perception that, you know, when a child runs away, whatever happens to him or her, they brought it on themselves because they ran away.

[137] But we have to dig a little deeper because if they are running away, we need to understand what are they running from and who are they running too?

[138] Because one in every four child that actually runs away is solicited for sex.

[139] Yeah.

[140] And in regards to the media, we know that there needs to be more diversity in the newsrooms so that the stories are fair.

[141] And we say, less is more.

[142] So less of one individual, and cover more of these cases, it will increase the chance of a recovery.

[143] And oftentimes, I think that our cases, our children, our adults are seen as criminals.

[144] Our children are adultified.

[145] They're not seen as victims by the media.

[146] And that's how the story is told.

[147] So the stories are really lopsided.

[148] And truly, race should not be a barrier to media coverage.

[149] Where you live, your zip code should not be a barrier to media coverage.

[150] Your income level should not be a barrier to media coverage.

[151] And that's what we're trying to do, is change the narrative that these are not thugs.

[152] They're not criminals.

[153] They are valuable members of our community.

[154] And they're mothers, their fathers, there are children, there are grandparents, they are our neighbors.

[155] And we can no longer turn a blind's eye on this issue.

[156] But I will say that we have come a long way.

[157] And we now have media partners, national media partners.

[158] And we've been called into the newsrooms to say, how can we work together and how can we do a better job in covering these cases?

[159] So we're seeing some traction.

[160] We believe that we're moving in the right direction, but we still have a lot of work to do.

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[180] Goodbye.

[181] In the show, I think it was episode two.

[182] I think it was Akea who went missing and she was pregnant.

[183] Am I right about her name?

[184] Yes, Akeia Egleston.

[185] Akea Egleston.

[186] And when you guys show up there, people start talking about how the police said that they went by and took statements or something, but someone told the story of finding her ID or her ATM card in the bushes right outside her front door.

[187] So it's like if they went there at all, how hard could they have looked to not have found something that important right outside her door?

[188] I just have to be honest, I was just really surprised by where it just seemed like.

[189] Like, wow, that's underserving on a level that I had no idea about.

[190] Well, to even take it a step further, and it really is frustrating for these families in the episode, it shows that we went to the police department also, which is directly across the street from where Akea went missing, and to speak to three uniform officers, including the commander, who had no knowledge that Akea was missing from across the street, that right there is, I don't even want to use the word, but it was, it was ridiculous.

[191] It was, it's bullshit.

[192] And I said, and I'm trying to be, because every time I think about that, because I served.

[193] And I think law enforcement need to understand that we are public servants.

[194] We work for the public.

[195] The public does not work for us.

[196] And when I look at Akea's case, and there are so many Akeas out there, I mean, I see my daughter.

[197] I mean, I see my daughter.

[198] I see my nieces.

[199] I see my cousins, my sister.

[200] And if it was my family member, I would want the gatekeepers to take an interest.

[201] So how could you even expect anyone else to take an interest if they're not even interested in it?

[202] They're responding to calls across the street for where she went missing, not knowing that she's missing.

[203] Wonder if she went to the door when they knocked on someone else's door and she was being coerced or threatened.

[204] They could have encountered her.

[205] So I think it really boils back down to enhancing the training, you know, the cultural diversity, the sensitivity, that's critical.

[206] And to also add on Akeas case, the docu -series had a huge impact because then law enforcement arrested her boyfriend or the baby's father.

[207] So it shows the pressure that that docu -series had on Baltimore County Police Department that they added resources to the case so that there can be some type of resolution.

[208] So again, that's why media coverage, these television programs, this visibility is so important.

[209] Well, it's interesting, too, because I believe your volunteer, Derek Butler, whose sister went missing.

[210] Yes.

[211] So his sister went missing, and they tried and tried, and he pounded the pavement and did everything he could to get an investigation going.

[212] And when they finally did, and they finally start looking into it, this man, who was her, I believe, boyfriend at the time, his first wife had gone missing.

[213] It was like they had unraveled this whole case and this whole profile of a person who had a history of violence against women, a history of potentially murder.

[214] And this could have been the reason he got caught instead of something that just got waved away.

[215] that was an unbelievable story and then the idea that he is volunteering with your foundation and he's the person there when this is happening to another family and he's saying to people like the woman said it was so heartbreaking of like I'm afraid I'm going to forget what she looks like and he went you won't you won't because it's not someone pandering it's not someone patting someone on the shoulder it's a person saying I know exactly how you feel right now I mean, that just seems, what a difference that probably makes for people.

[216] What an amazing thing to be able to watch you guys do that work because I think that's the kind of thing you wouldn't, I wouldn't have exposure to other than that.

[217] And Derek, the brilliance of Derek is that he utilized the media to get traction on his sister's case.

[218] Because MPD initially, you know, blamed Derek that he had something to do with his sister's case.

[219] And he kept fighting.

[220] He kept advocating for his sister and used the media, used, I don't want to say used, but maximized the media coverage, maximize the reporters, the relationships with reporters who were interested in the case.

[221] And it brought about change.

[222] And Derek, as you said, has been advocating.

[223] He's on our board.

[224] And he's been helping us to help these families.

[225] He's been priceless to us.

[226] And he's been priceless to us.

[227] and he's not selfish.

[228] He wants to use his experience to help others.

[229] And he has a wealth of knowledge.

[230] He lived this.

[231] And he's trying to help others get through it.

[232] Yeah, it's beautiful.

[233] It's really beautiful.

[234] It's like you can take a negative and then take action with it.

[235] It's very inspiring.

[236] So, wait, how did this series actually come about?

[237] So in 2017, Natalie and I, we were honored at Black Girls Rock, on BET, and we ended up winning the Community Change Agent Award.

[238] And Soledad O 'Brien, who is the executive producer of the show, and such a wonderful journalist and very inspiring and moved by our work, she wanted to help tell the stories of these families that we're working with.

[239] So that's really how it all came about.

[240] If you ask her, she will say something a little different, saying that she had to follow her knees and beg us.

[241] I don't recall that.

[242] I don't recall that ever happening.

[243] I love that, first of all, it's more awards.

[244] So clearly you guys must have very large mantles with all your awards that you win.

[245] I love Soledad O 'Brien.

[246] She's on Twitter.

[247] She's so good and smart.

[248] The stuff she posts is just so badass and cool.

[249] Yes, she is.

[250] Since the series came out.

[251] Have more positives happened?

[252] Yeah, Kishay Jacobs.

[253] There's been also some traction in her case.

[254] Richmond Police Department, they've added or provided a new detective, fresh eyes to look at her case.

[255] So, you know, again, there's a lot of positivity from this docu series because of the visibility.

[256] And it's changing conversations in the newsrooms and law enforcement.

[257] and even the community, because like Soledad said, how can we all work together alongside you all to get this work done, to bring visibility to these cases?

[258] Because we all play a vital role.

[259] And just to add on to what Natalie stated, law enforcement, they are now viewing us as allies.

[260] You know, we're not trying to step on their toes.

[261] We want to be a resource for them, understanding that there is a lack of resources when it comes to the missing persons unit.

[262] And for us to be able to hold these families' hand, for them to understand what's needed, what are the next steps.

[263] And so that is something that we're able to provide to them.

[264] And oftentimes the families will reach out to us before they even reach out to law enforcement.

[265] But, you know, of course, we help bridge that gap because we're not naive in knowing that there is a lack of trust when it comes to the minority community and law enforcement.

[266] So for us to be able to at least take them by the hands, walk them through this process.

[267] And even when their loved one has been found, you know, it's so important for people to understand that the person that went missing is not the same person who returns home.

[268] You know, there are other resources that these families need.

[269] So these families become our family.

[270] And we don't stop once their loved one has been found.

[271] or once, sadly, you know, the outcome wasn't what was expected.

[272] We still continue to support these families.

[273] Wow.

[274] What a beautiful service.

[275] Thank you.

[276] To your community.

[277] Don't you do?

[278] It's so impressive.

[279] Thank you.

[280] It makes so much sense.

[281] It's almost like planning for the future of how can we develop services for people who go through these traumatic experiences.

[282] And it isn't just down to evidence, no evidence, attention, no attention, or whatever, because clearly some of these cases are connected to sex trafficking, which is obviously a huge problem in this country.

[283] There's so many things that are involved here as opposed to just one -off, missing person, oh, it's a runaway, and it feels like it's moving toward kind of the bigger picture of how can we improve all of this and actually make a real change.

[284] One thing that, you know, I can say that I'm proud about the dokey series is that it gives the general public a glimpse into not only what these families are facing and the issues that they go through, but what got them there in the first place.

[285] And I think being proactive is the most important thing that you can do.

[286] How do we prevent them from going missing?

[287] So we know that there is a correlation with missing persons and domestic violence, mental health, human trafficking.

[288] What should we be doing as a community, as a nation, to prevent those individuals from falling victim in these situations?

[289] And I think that's an even deeper conversation.

[290] And we're also seeing, as you mentioned earlier, a lot of systemic issues that are causing individuals to disappear or to become victims of sex trafficking, mental health issues.

[291] You know, housing, education, economics, income.

[292] There's so many systemic issues that we need to take a look at.

[293] Relisha Rudd was featured in a docu -series.

[294] She and her family were homeless.

[295] And, you know, homelessness plays a great role in our children being victims of sex trafficking because they have to survive.

[296] And the pimps know that.

[297] And they know that their punishment for sex trafficking.

[298] trafficking a young girl or young man is not as harsh as their white counterpart.

[299] Right.

[300] So as elected leaders, as our community, we need to do a better job in delving deeper into these systemic issues that are affecting our community at a greater rate.

[301] And what I learned from the series is black women specifically, their lives are, what was the statistic?

[302] it was like 40 % more likely to be killed.

[303] Four times more likely, yes.

[304] Four times, sorry.

[305] Four times more likely to be killed than any other American.

[306] And then on top of that, they are expected to hold the family together.

[307] No matter what their family is going through, they have to be the rock.

[308] And yet they're under this pressure and under this threat.

[309] I mean, I just like all of that, it's putting the picture together.

[310] It's pretty amazing.

[311] And that's what we're trying to do, change the narrative.

[312] Again, you can no longer turn a blind's eye because this issue hasn't affected you personally.

[313] It affects us all as a nation, and we all have to play a role.

[314] We all have resources or something that we can do.

[315] If you see a profile come across your computer or through social media, don't disregard it.

[316] You know, share it within your network.

[317] Help it to go viral.

[318] be our digital milk carton because someone knows something and we just need one person to come forward with information that could provide closure or answers for a family.

[319] So let's all do our part.

[320] Can't say that enough.

[321] Let's all help us find us.

[322] Yep.

[323] Yep, that's your hashtag, right?

[324] Help us find us.

[325] It is.

[326] Yes.

[327] So in the episode two of the series, the concept of the missing white woman syndrome is discussed.

[328] And I think as true crime, consumers, a lot of our listeners know about that.

[329] But you want to kind of touch on that a little more and discuss what that means and how we can, as true crime, consumers can really pay attention to that.

[330] Certainly, I can start.

[331] When you think about the missing white woman syndrome, immediately you think about Natalie Holloway, Lacey Peterson, Chandra Levy, Kaylee Anthony, Elizabeth Smart, and Gabby Petito.

[332] And those names just roll off my tongue, right?

[333] You know, many listeners out there, they don't know about Daniel Robinson.

[334] They don't know about Akeo Eggleston, Ariana Fitz, Relisha Rudd, Kishay Jacobs, because they're not getting that same awareness.

[335] And we're not trying to dishonor any community.

[336] We're just trying to even the playing field.

[337] And sadly, every so often, there's this media upset.

[338] session over attractive white female with blonde hair and blue eyes.

[339] And yet these other families are really fighting an uphill battle to even get law enforcement to take the case seriously, much less even get the media to profile their missing loved one on the 5 or 10 o 'clock news cycle for 30 seconds.

[340] And so as Natalie said, we are really trying to change that narrative less is more.

[341] you know, less of one race and more of everyone else, just really greater the chances of a reunion.

[342] Because the unknown is just so devastating.

[343] You know, not knowing if your loved one is hungry, if they're cold, if they're being mistreated, if they're going to walk through the front door again.

[344] And the way we try to get our community to even connect, to fill that empathy with these families, because we hope that no one ever have to experience anything like this.

[345] But imagine misplacing your car keys or your cell phone.

[346] Your anxiety is through the roof.

[347] You're panicking because you don't know, right?

[348] Now, multiply that times a billion is really unthinkable, is undescribable.

[349] It's unimaginable when someone is facing every single day, not knowing where their loved one is.

[350] And from a media perspective, again, going back to, to the narrative of how our missing are viewed or portrayed.

[351] You know, they are not seen as victims.

[352] And if you look at Akea Eggleston, I mean, they kept going back to the neighborhood that she lived.

[353] And, you know, this story was, you know, she's poor, she's impoverished, she's a mother at a young age.

[354] And that has nothing to do with it.

[355] This woman is missing.

[356] She's eight months pregnant.

[357] Let's focus on her and trying to bring her home.

[358] And what we're noticing, sometimes the images that the media would use, they're not compelling or they're images that would make the community say, you know what, yeah, he deserved it or she deserves it.

[359] So we just have to be mindful of the images and the narratives that we're putting out there because it really impacts the behavior.

[360] of our community with them searching for dismissing individuals.

[361] Yeah.

[362] And if I can just add one thing, I remember we were speaking with some media partners.

[363] And I recall Natalie's saying to them when they were like, well, what can we do?

[364] And she said, you know, don't wait for the story to be trendy.

[365] You break the news.

[366] And I think if more of these outlets will break the news, I think it would allow families to reunite much quicker.

[367] It will apply the pressure to law enforcement to dedicate more.

[368] more resources and we can close these cases.

[369] I also noticed that the young woman who actually was found and she had autism.

[370] Kennedy, hi.

[371] Kennedy, that's right.

[372] Kennedy, hi.

[373] Her story, it changed as I was watching it by hearing that she had autism.

[374] Like, it was this slow personification of not just a missing teen, not just a girl and you see her in a picture and there's kind of nothing to attach to it.

[375] suddenly it's oh this is really important she has autism there's something to this that's like building the real person around it and getting through to that idea of here's the mother and here's the concern and actually giving it that chance to be the story conveyed as this is a real person just like somebody that might be in your family that idea that it's scary but i do feel like in that moment i realized that my own desensitization because then when i learned she had autism.

[376] It was like, oh, oh, that's really scary.

[377] And it's like, that should be the feeling every time.

[378] That was just kind of mind -blowing in that moment where it's like, yeah, you need this story to be told so that you can hook into it and know that you're talking about this real person.

[379] Absolutely.

[380] That was a teachable moment, you know, because children, they're vulnerable regardless, right?

[381] But when you add on the layer of having a disability, that should not be at the forefront, all the resources still should be dedicated to finding the missing child and no one should have to walk around with a stamp on their forehead.

[382] And so that case is very near and dear to me personally as well as a mother of a child with a disability and how relaxed law enforcement was.

[383] And I think it's also that teachable moment where not every disability is visible.

[384] Sometimes people would look and think and assume that everything is normal.

[385] Just like the officer in Kennedy's case, he was interviewed and it was shown in episode one.

[386] He was like, you know, to go to the school that she went to, you have to be incredibly smart.

[387] You know, I didn't know anything about autism.

[388] Well, she shouldn't have to walk around and broadcast that she has a disability.

[389] You should at least dedicate the resources and finding her.

[390] Yeah.

[391] And I really like what you just said to our community, the law enforcement media are desensitized about, you know, about this issue.

[392] And Kennedy's case took place in 2017.

[393] We, 22, we recently had cases similar to that where law enforcement basically, you know what, your child is laid up with some man. Like how desensitizing, you know, insensitive is your common?

[394] So it's still happening today that law enforcement still isn't taking these cases seriously.

[395] And as a result, so much time has gone by and clues and it's making it harder and harder to find these missing individuals.

[396] Yeah.

[397] Right.

[398] And that's so important too with the piece of the media coverage.

[399] That takes months to track down an outlet that will cover a case.

[400] That's of months gone.

[401] So that's why it's so important, right, for the media to immediately be proactive.

[402] Absolutely.

[403] That's true.

[404] But we also, social media is vital for us too.

[405] Again, we can't always wait on that 5 and 10 o 'clock news cycle.

[406] And Natalie and I, we travel to New York often on the accellar from Washington, D .C. And we are in New York in two and a half hours.

[407] So when you put that in perspective of a person that may go missing at 12 noon, they could be in New York.

[408] They can be in Boston.

[409] They can be anywhere before the media circuit even picks up the story.

[410] But yet, we have to reach people where they are.

[411] And so many people have devices, whether it's their cell phones, their iPads, laptop.

[412] They are always in touch.

[413] And so we have to go where they are and utilizing our platforms and our community as our digital milk carton has been vital for the success of reuniting.

[414] so many families together.

[415] And media coverage is vital.

[416] Again, it's bringing about that awareness.

[417] A couple of weeks ago in the D .C. area, we had two young girls who were missing, and we were able to get them that media coverage.

[418] They were missing for 10 days.

[419] And because of that media partnership, we were able to work with law enforcement and the community to bring them home.

[420] So media is vital, and we're so grateful for the media partners that we can tap into immediately, not only in the D .C. area, but nationally to help cover these cases.

[421] Yeah, there was one part where, and I think it was the part where you were trying to get coverage for the self -defense class that you guys were holding for the community, and you were just trying to call around to say, hey, can we just get a little coverage on this so that people come?

[422] Because how great would that be if a bunch of people knew that there were these self -defense classes and the way the person kind of weirdly talked around it and then was like not maybe not today and I just it was like you just kind of hung up the phone and went like mm -hmm and I was like thank God like that to me having a PR person where and I can't imagine if we were actually talking about a loved one of mine where I would be so angry I would be so reactive I would be so like you know it'd be so hard not to yell.

[423] It'd be so hard not to be emotional about stuff like that.

[424] And I was just like, oh, that's why this is so perfect.

[425] She is the classic PR person that's like, thank you very much.

[426] I will talk to you again tomorrow.

[427] Like, I will be back.

[428] Well, you know, we've been through that.

[429] So that wasn't the first, no, we go through that all the time.

[430] But I will say that same media outlet after the docu -series, guess what?

[431] They're our media partners.

[432] So I can solve them and say, hey, you know, I need your cuff, and they're like, okay, how can I help?

[433] So it's building relationships.

[434] And again, we know that every case, every activity or event that we have will not get media coverage, but we are building those relationships so that the important ones and the most critical ones, we can get it out there immediately.

[435] And people, I think, want to do good.

[436] Many people want to do good.

[437] And nobody wants to see themselves as the people that are gatekeeping and keeping.

[438] keeping things out.

[439] Nobody wants to be that person in the whole story.

[440] You know, like to go back and be able to say, can we change that?

[441] We drop the ball there is great.

[442] It's a great opportunity for them to be like, yeah, we are going to do it differently from here on out.

[443] And one of the reporters who recognized his station, I don't know how he did, but he recognized his station, he called me and he said, if you had called me, that would have never happened.

[444] And it wouldn't happen again.

[445] And I promise you that I'm always available to help.

[446] So it didn't work then, but it's working out now.

[447] Yeah.

[448] But we never allow any of that to discourage us because, again, we are focused on these families.

[449] So this is so much bigger than us.

[450] This is a movement.

[451] And we're on this journey to help us find us.

[452] And anyone that wants to join along and we're gaining traction and we're gaining those partnerships, as Natalie stated with the media, law enforcement.

[453] I mean, even just today, law enforcement, they're sending us press releases and bulletins of missing persons and they're like, can you please share on your platforms?

[454] And that's what we need because it takes all of us.

[455] It takes all of us.

[456] Law enforcement, the media, and the community.

[457] What's your proudest or some of your proudest achievements that have come about because of the work with your foundation?

[458] Um, let's see.

[459] That's not what I'm trying to think.

[460] That's kind of a thinker, yeah.

[461] I think we just do.

[462] I mean, we, so I'm going to go back to the whole Gracie's theme for one second.

[463] Mm -hmm.

[464] It was such an honor to enjoy in that moment because this is heavy, right?

[465] And so we celebrate those small successes, but we know.

[466] that there's another call that's waiting on a return call, and we're back into the weeks.

[467] You know what I mean?

[468] So we try to celebrate that split second, but then we're still going.

[469] And it's really hard to think about for me, like, what really is the proudest moment?

[470] I feel that, you know, we just celebrated our 14 -year anniversary, and we were looking at each other, like, wow, it's been 14 years, you know?

[471] But I just think that, again, people understanding and recognizing that, you know, we are two women, we're wives, we're mothers, just trying to make a difference.

[472] And I've always said, you know, if there's an issue, you must be willing to be the change.

[473] And I just look at us, we're trying to be the change that our community needs.

[474] For me, it's every time I get a media partnership, like, yes, I sell.

[475] a bit because it was a lot of hard work.

[476] And every time someone is found because of our efforts, I'm really proud of that.

[477] Because people don't know what we go through behind the scenes.

[478] And, you know, mentioned the young ladies that were missing for 10 days in the D .C. area.

[479] I remember her family saying, we call those same stations and no one would cover us.

[480] But when we called, they were on it right away.

[481] So just being able to do that.

[482] And, you know, it's our hope that we make black and missing so effective and so relevant that it lives beyond us.

[483] And that's what we're working to do.

[484] So just all of our hard work, tears, just frustration, when it turns into something positive, I'm like, yes, we did it.

[485] Let's move on to the next thing.

[486] It's such a legacy.

[487] There's one part in the show where they show you guys from like a People magazine article that seemed like it was from a while ago where I was like, oh, I think that was early days.

[488] That was like...

[489] It was early.

[490] Because I was heavy.

[491] I was heavy.

[492] You know that was early.

[493] We all like to go through many, many looks in our lives and many different shapes.

[494] I myself am an enjoyer of many shapes.

[495] but you know this isn't new this series coming out isn't the beginning of your work it's basically recording this body of work that has been done with no awards has been done with no cameras has been done just showing up and getting it done and it's really unbelievable it's just like congratulations on doing it and just being the real deal it's pretty breathtaking thank you thank you thank you so much yes we really appreciate that yeah so what do you guys do because it is so heavy what do you guys do for work life balance like what do you do for fun and to you know when you need to blow off steam be honest be honest okay so for me um two things that i'm doing i'm Caribbean i listen to my soak of music it grounds me It lifts me up.

[496] It empowers me. I don't know what it is about it, but it takes me back to a place where I know that I can do this work.

[497] I know that I have everything within me and it keeps me going.

[498] And most recently what I've started to do is I'm not looking at my phone before 7 o 'clock because families were calling and I'm not being insensitive or anything like that, but I have to fill my cup up.

[499] in order to help them.

[500] But they're like, my loved one was just found murdered, or someone's trying to kill me, or just all of this heavy, you know, information.

[501] And I'm like, I cannot.

[502] I can no longer respond before seven.

[503] I have to gather myself, do my prayer, meditation, and get my mind together, and then move forward in helping the family, because it was becoming very heavy for me. morning person, I'm up at four, and I'm working it out.

[504] But those messages really set the tone, not only for the day, but sometimes for the entire week to, you know, when you hear someone, my son was just found murdered.

[505] I mean, and some of the stories are very graphic.

[506] And it just was weighing on me too much.

[507] So I've made a concerted effort to not look at my phone before 7 o 'clock, 7 a .m. She's taking entire days off.

[508] And so I'm from South Carolina.

[509] I grew up in church, and so I'm always listening to my gospel, where it will minister to my heart, my soul.

[510] I can cry it out, and then I'm ready to tackle the world.

[511] Like Natalie, I have set boundaries, so I'm the late out.

[512] So we also mix well, too, because she's the early bird, and I'm the one that's burning the midnight oil.

[513] But setting boundaries, especially because we are a national organization and we are so hands -on.

[514] And people are on different time zones.

[515] And our phones ring off the hook.

[516] So I had to set some limits to, especially my phone is ringing at 11 p .m. You know, my time.

[517] And it's, you know, like eight or nine, someone else's time.

[518] But, you know, again, I'm a family -oriented person.

[519] And so I love spending time in my family.

[520] I love laughing, comedy, because it really is heavy.

[521] It's heavy.

[522] I don't watch a lot of television.

[523] I don't like the news anymore because it's depressing.

[524] These stories can be depressing enough.

[525] It really is heavy.

[526] But, you know, we're doing it.

[527] We have to keep going.

[528] These families, they rely on us.

[529] So it's where we are.

[530] Yeah.

[531] You recently released a children's book.

[532] I did.

[533] Matter of fact, I was at a school today.

[534] I wrote a book, a children's book.

[535] It's called Finan Sierra, and I really wanted to meet the children where they are.

[536] So part of my history as a police officer in Falls Church, I used to go into the schools.

[537] I was a certified dare officer.

[538] I also taught the game curriculum as well.

[539] So, you know, there's this perception, especially when I was a police officer, I would go into a store or show up for a call.

[540] And a parent will always say to their child, you know, if you're misbehaving, you know, that officer's going to arrest you.

[541] And I really think it sends a negative message, especially in our community.

[542] Again, we're still battling that, you know, that lack of trust.

[543] But I want to be able to utilize my passion and to be able to help them.

[544] And what we're seeing, especially with the organization, there are so many children that are victims of human trafficking, really wanted to tailor that message.

[545] in a book that's relatable, that they can identify themselves, that representation.

[546] And there was some subliminal messages throughout the book that I'm glad that people have been able to pick up on because they were like, oh, you know, and I look at the book, I look at the diversity on the police force.

[547] I look at the flyer of the little girl who was missing, although it said that she went with this man, you know, because I want the message to be clear that this child is missing.

[548] She's not a runaway.

[549] So it was those.

[550] little hidden messages that I wanted to be very pronounced and really sparked that discussion that should really start at home.

[551] But being able to go out into the schools and teach it and talk to the kids about it, it's been rewarding as well.

[552] Yeah, that's amazing.

[553] Writing a book is hard, so we congratulate you because it's a huge endeavor.

[554] It's a big deal.

[555] Finding Sierra by Derica Wilson by that book, if you can.

[556] Thank you.

[557] Thank you so much for talking to us today.

[558] We're just big fans of the work that you're doing and the strength and the smarts that it takes to get it done.

[559] So, congratulations.

[560] So if you haven't already, please watch the award -winning, multi -award winning, four -part documentary series Black and Missing.

[561] It's streaming on HBO Max.

[562] The hashtag, Help Us, find us, is on Instagram, and their handle is at Black and Missing FDN.

[563] And if you want to learn more about the Black and Missing Foundation, go to their website.

[564] website, which is black and missing, ink .com.

[565] And while you're there, you can make a tax deductible donation to ensure that the work that Natalie and Derricka are doing can continue to help find black and missing people in this country.

[566] George and I would like to make a donation to your foundation because we're so proud of the work you do.

[567] We're going to make a $25 ,000 donation to you guys to help you out.

[568] Thank you.

[569] Wow.

[570] We know.

[571] We're just, we're in awe.

[572] We're part of the media.

[573] We want to help.

[574] We really believe in what you do.

[575] And when we're really happy to be able to give you a platform.

[576] Thank you so much.

[577] Thank you.

[578] Thank you.

[579] And thank you.

[580] Yes.

[581] Thank you for that donation and for using your platform.

[582] Absolutely.

[583] To bring awareness to this issue.

[584] And, you know, your viewers, they can help.

[585] You know, it's about our community.

[586] coming together.

[587] So thank you so much from the organization and the families that we serve.

[588] I'm speechless.

[589] So thank you.

[590] I am too.

[591] Didn't expect it.

[592] Thank you.

[593] Well, we're in awe of you and the work you do and we're just honored to have you talk to us today.

[594] And anytime you want to come back on and share stories, we would love to have you.

[595] We'd love to talk to you again.

[596] Thank you.

[597] Thank you very much.

[598] Thank you.

[599] Absolutely.

[600] You made my weekend.

[601] Oh, listen.

[602] I am never speechless and I'm sitting here.

[603] And I'm like We didn't mean to drop that on you because we like to donate to the things that we talk about you know and so normally we just do it and we're only talking to each other this is the first time we've had to tell people directly to their face that we were going to do it and it's just like, ew, it's kind of creepy it's like it feels like Okay, this is like when I met Maria Taylor I'm like, okay.

[604] And you know what?

[605] And I'm so glad this is just the audio and not the video, because if anyone was to see us right now, but thank you so much.

[606] Thank you.

[607] Thank you.

[608] Thank you.

[609] Yes.

[610] You guys are the ones that deserve the thanks.

[611] And for all your work is just so important.

[612] Thank you.

[613] And for every listener out there, last thing I would like to say is that, you know, missing persons isn't a black issue.

[614] It's not a white issue.

[615] It is a American issue.

[616] It's a human issue.

[617] And it takes all of us.

[618] So we all play a part.

[619] Yeah, perfectly put.

[620] Thank you so much, you guys.

[621] Thank you.

[622] Thank you.

[623] Have a great weekend.

[624] Yes.

[625] You too.

[626] Absolutely.

[627] Look, I'm still sweating.

[628] Okay.

[629] I'm still.

[630] Thank you.

[631] Elvis, do you want a cookie?

[632] This has been an exactly right production.

[633] Our senior producers are Hannah Kyle Pryton and Natalie Wren.

[634] is Alejandra Keck.

[635] This episode was engineered and mixed by Andrew Eepin.

[636] Email your hometowns and fucking hoorays to My Favorite Murder at gmail .com.

[637] Follow the show on Instagram and Facebook at My Favorite Murder and on Twitter at My Fave Murder.

[638] Goodbye.

[639] Follow My Favorite Murder on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, or wherever you like to listen so you don't miss an episode.

[640] If you like what you hear, rate and review the show.

[641] Visit exactly right store .com to purchase My Favorite Murder merch.