#242 – Ben Askren: Wrestling and MMA

[0] The following is a conversation with Ben Ascran, wrestler, M .M .A. fighter, and a brilliant, opinionated, and fun personality in the world of martial arts.

[1] And yes, he occasionally likes to talk a little trash.

[2] Given his wild online antics and his boxing match with Jake Paul, some people may forget just how dominant he was in the sport of wrestling and in MMA for most of his career.

[3] In wrestling, he is a two -time NCAA Division I national champion and four -time finalist.

[4] In mixed martial arts, he went undefeated for 10 years with a record of 19 -0 before losing to Jorge Mazvedal with the flying knee that caught everyone by surprise.

[5] He's also into cryptocurrency, this golf, and is the co -host of Flow Wrestling Radio Live.

[6] And now onto the full ad reads, As always, no ads in the middle.

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[72] This is the Lex Friedman podcast, and here is my conversation with Ben Ascran.

[73] Before we talk about your incredible wrestling career, your MMA career, let me ask you.

[74] I have to ask you.

[75] What did you think about the Jake Paul versus Tyrone Woodley fight?

[76] Well, I thought, I mean, I'm obviously biased.

[77] I thought Tyrone won.

[78] I had five rounds of three.

[79] And again, maybe this is my bias in the way I was seeing it.

[80] I thought he was more effective with the striking and he was more aggressive.

[81] No, Jake had more volume.

[82] But that was the only thing I would give him.

[83] And I guess a lot of people just didn't see it that way.

[84] They thought he landed more significantly more punches.

[85] I just didn't think I really did any damage.

[86] it was a split decision split decision yeah were you surprised well it's the thing so the thing I said when I went in to fight him I said we don't really maybe he's good maybe he's not we really have no idea to this point you know and so I knew Tyron was a lot better boxing than I was and so I thought okay tyrant's I think it's a good likelihood that Tyrant beats him up but there's a chance that Jake's kind of good at this and I think that's kind of what played out is he's kind of good at it even if you saw it the way i saw it he still was impressive in his showing and he's obviously put a lot of time into it so he's he's not bad we'll say that much you know but isn't it surprising to you that like uh elite level athlete combat athlete lost to somebody who just takes it really seriously but is nevertheless not elite level um hmm but i think boxing is a really specific rule set uh so we'll speak about tyrant not myself had good striking, but obviously it was his first boxing match ever.

[87] And within mixed martial arts, you have the fear of the takedown and the fear of the kick and fear of other things to go along with the punching.

[88] And so if you look at Tyran throughout his memory, a lot of times what set up his punches were like level change fakes at a takedown.

[89] They dropped, boom, and then something comes over the top, right?

[90] So there's many more elements to worry about mixed martial arts, whereas boxing, there's only one.

[91] it was his first fight.

[92] Yes, I thought Tyrant was going to win.

[93] I thought this was going to happen.

[94] But like I said, I mean, it's pretty evident that Jake's.

[95] He's not bad at boxing.

[96] He's pretty solid, you know?

[97] He gets in there and works hard at it, I guess.

[98] Out of ten times, how many times do you think Jake wins?

[99] I guess Tyrant?

[100] I guess Tyron.

[101] Hmm.

[102] They fight again and again and again, like iterative.

[103] Yeah.

[104] So, I mean, part of the thing is, okay, so Jake's Corner said you need a knockout going into the eighth round, right?

[105] And so I think they thought maybe they're trying to motivate him, but I don't see it that way because if they were actually thought that he was winning, why would they encourage him to take a dumb risk when Tyrant has clearly his knockout power, right?

[106] It's a really stupid coaching philosophy if that's what you're thinking.

[107] So you obviously are thinking, hey, this is actually in the balance.

[108] It's competitive.

[109] And I feel like Tyrant thought maybe he was winning and didn't have the urgency necessary.

[110] And so I think there's a chance he turns it up a lot.

[111] man i would want to watch them again before i i so yeah i had i had this problem with my personality here's my personality lex um i have an issue with not being able to give really exact answers so i hate giving you an answer that like i don't feel like is 100 % calculated yeah so um i would like to see them go once more because i would like to see hey can tyrant if because if tyrant can turn the pace and j can't handle it then i think it's an eight one or nine too right um if it goes the exact same way and maybe tyrant was a close split decision i'm saying oh well that's probably me close every single time we're probably going to get a five to five type of thing you know so it's like i feel like out of one match it's not totally indicative of what the future is going to look like i feel like tyrant would get a knockout and then you would still be in the same place like not not knowing not know what to predict yeah okay so your fight with jake paul yeah looking back you have a little bit of time now how did you analyze that fight?

[112] Well, I mean, the fight specifically, I got cracked with an overhand right, so I mean, it kind of sucks.

[113] I would say, you know, and this is where I really don't care, and everyone's like, why would you get to turn your reputation?

[114] It's like, well, I wanted to do it.

[115] I had an enjoyable time training and in the buildup.

[116] Obviously, I wasn't skillful enough to get the win.

[117] But even despite the fact that I know it's going to happen, happen if someone asked me to do it again i probably would have done it again you know and so the way i was thinking about when i was deciding whether to do or not because i got the offer it's like okay is this money it can't change my life yeah it could right it's not going to double my net worth but it's it's going to add significantly make my life easier number two is like when i was in high school we used to do boxing matches for free just because we thought it was fun we didn't have something going on friday night me and my buddies would get together and we had some boxing goes by basing and we is enjoyable and now they're paying me a whole bunch of money yeah sure i'll do it would you do you think if you got the rematch if you did the rematch would you what are the odds you win okay let's probably not very good i think he's pretty good actually and i'm not very good and that was probably at a low point for me because so when i started training for that i was like 215 pounds which is the heaviest head of bed i came off my hip surgery i literally like when i said yes like i'll do it like I had literally started working out like the week before for the first time in my you know instance of surgery because I wasn't able to do anything so could I could I perform better yeah but now after watching him box tiring like if you ask me Ben can you beat tyrant probably probably not I don't think I can beat tyrant so boxing yeah so my chances of beating him you know and watching that card it's like damn like kind of be fun to box someone who I know sucks who I know it can beat that That's what would be fun, you know?

[118] Because, like, the training, the preparation was fun.

[119] But then obviously, I got my butt kicked.

[120] That sucked.

[121] You know, can I swear on this podcast?

[122] Yeah, of course.

[123] Okay, well, I was going to drop an F -bob.

[124] I wasn't quite sure.

[125] I think that sucked is a swear.

[126] No, no, no. You could drop all of the F -bombs you want.

[127] So preparation -wise, do you think you were more prepared for that fight or the Jordan Borrell's exhibition?

[128] I mean, like, how did you approach it?

[129] mentally you know um well the burroughs thing i i obviously it's okay so when i retired the first time in 2017 burroughs was the only current like we'll say really elite level wrestling that i never trained with um i was really good friends with the Nebraska's head as coach still am and i said hey i just i'm gonna pay my own way i want to come down to train with jordan because i want to see what it feels like you know i want to i want to get in there and mix it up i mix it up with david taylor and kyle dake i mean there's just something about wrestling that i love and so i flew myself down there in January of 2018, and I spent four days training with Jordan.

[130] It was a really good time.

[131] It gave me some great insight into how he thinks and, you know, what a great champion is.

[132] What was it like training with him?

[133] Like what, can you get some insights?

[134] Yeah, of course.

[135] Like what the, like how hard is the live training?

[136] Is it more drilling?

[137] Is it technical?

[138] Like, how does his, it seems like his style is very different than yours.

[139] So how does that match up in the room in terms of like what you learn?

[140] from each other that kind of thing we went full live for one i think was like a 12 or 15 minute ago where it was just go wrestle um we did a bunch of simulated live but obviously he he had so i was a senior in college when he was a freshman in Nebraska and so we our teams had dueled each other he was obviously a lot smaller at that point in time um but he had he had followed my career and so when i went in there it was like hey i know you're really good at this position what about this position what are you trying to do how exactly does it work and then let's wrestle there you know and then hey what about this position and so you know we would spend 30 to 40 minutes talking about that position on the ground or i it was like uh one was a chest strap it wasn't my headlock one was uh i don't know really it's called the what we called the lightning dump but it's a lightning dump yeah i was my buddy's name was lightning luke smith in high school and he was the first person i saw do it so usually want to see someone do something that i name that move after them got it um i know right great name it's a good name so So, yeah, but so what I said with that is like, he was still trying to be the best in the world.

[141] I was just trying to go work out with Joan Burroughs because I enjoy wrestling.

[142] Is like someone who, at that point, when he has five world titles at that four or five at that point a lot.

[143] And so I used it in my high school kids.

[144] It's like, hey, this is the guy who's the best in the world who's bringing someone in and saying, well, how do I do this?

[145] How do I do that?

[146] What about this?

[147] What about that?

[148] And so the level of inquisitiveness, that's a hard word, inquisitiveness he has, is really impressive.

[149] And then it's obvious why he got to the level he did because he's figuring out all these little situations.

[150] And that's honestly one of the biggest things.

[151] I think wrestlers, a lot of wrestlers fail to do as they get older.

[152] Even when they get to early college age, they say this is my style.

[153] This is what I do.

[154] I'm going to lift and work out hard.

[155] And I'm not going to add anything to my game.

[156] You know, whereas you've seen many progressions in Jordan Burroughs game.

[157] He just made his 10th world team.

[158] And, you know, if you have a really keen eye, you've been able to watch him change, you know.

[159] I've been watching him since 2007.

[160] He's changed so much and obviously still maintained a world -class level almost the entire time.

[161] When you say change, like what changed?

[162] Because he's got that double leg.

[163] But there's not going to have a doubling anymore.

[164] Was that?

[165] He, like, hit his double leg for the first time because Alex Deirdrej, he hadn't hit in years.

[166] Yeah, so that's like, when people think about Jordan they think about the double leg.

[167] Because in his early years, fire, he had a great double leg, right?

[168] And even so in those years, I would say the biggest thing with Jordan Bro's double leg wasn't his level of explosiveness.

[169] It was his level of persistence.

[170] He would shoot and shoot and shoot and shoot.

[171] And a lot of times it would be from fun, creative angles and out of scramble, boom, all things on you, you know?

[172] And it was just, he was just super persistent with it.

[173] And I think that was probably the key.

[174] And then you saw, you know, when he came out to one of the first world championship in 2011, it was kind of that type of mentality.

[175] And then shortly after then, obviously everyone was starting to lower their stance being lower.

[176] And he developed a really good, like, mantis go behind series where he would go one way the other way.

[177] Then he started developing a really good, like, low single ankle pick type thing, you know.

[178] And then his hand fighting got really tremendous, like 15, 16, 17.

[179] His hand fighting was really good.

[180] And now I just commented at the 21 trials, like a few of the defensive sequences he got into is like, holy shit.

[181] Like just not from an athletic standpoint, from a technical standpoint, the things he were doing was just tremendous.

[182] So I've seen him as someone like who's continued to reinvent themselves over the course of the last 10, 12 years.

[183] Especially in the, as a junior and senior in college, you're exceptionally dominant.

[184] Yeah.

[185] If you were to face him at the peak, both of your peaks of NCAA wrestling, could you, could you beat him?

[186] And if you can beat him, of course, you can beat him.

[187] Yeah.

[188] How do you solve the Jordan Burroughs public?

[189] Well, so for a folks style wrestling standpoint.

[190] folk style yeah folks so you know he he had some competitive matches his junior senior year he had a two one win over uh or maybe it's three two over michael chanler who is my teammate who's fighting you see now he had a two and win over title called well um so i think you can glean some insight into that you know he got ridden he got so mad about this up on a podcast so during crono we had to make up all kinds of bullshit to talk about yeah and we were doing like the last 10 years best 165s and i said kyle dake would ride him for over a minute oh wow he got so mad you want to come on the podcast the next day so hopefully he doesn't listen to this like fuck you man you know um but when was this this is during corona corona last year he got mad i we were talking about we were before the trials yeah correct yeah so um you know michael channel wrote him for two minutes plus and that was his junior year not a senior year sure right but it's close um so i think there's some things there i think the interesting thing would be if if i would have stuck around right so i chose to go into mixed martial arts after a dozen eight i would have been 74 he would have been 74, so we would head to wrestle.

[191] And then I think that the freestyle Jordan Burroughs puzzle is a lot more difficult to solve than the folk style Jordan Burroughs puzzle.

[192] And I think, I don't think he would, I think he would acknowledge that he's much better at freestyle than he was at folk style.

[193] You know, although he was very good, he's better.

[194] This is like raw speed explosiveness, present the problem to you?

[195] Well, so he was never, I mean, he didn't really excel on the mat in kind of either style.

[196] In freestyle, he has got some good lace transitions.

[197] but in folks that like his whole like in his entire college career I think he has like 10 pins which is almost nothing you know so he was gaining no value off the top position he was good enough on most people to get off bottom without it being an issue but it wasn't like oh my gosh this is an area where we really have to be careful there's a lot of things here you know it's just he wasn't gaining value there whereas in freestyle he I don't want to say never but the amount of times he gets turned is incredibly rare very very rare and he does have like late transition so he gets a lot of points there so and obviously freestyle is it can be geared way more in the neutral position right where we're only doing takedown so yeah were you surprised that he lost to dake and the trials to Kyle Dake oh Kyle's so so he's so good right I mean I think I think his performance the Olympics was uh was his loss then was was shocking to I mean we never seen that happened to Kyle Dake you know he's been a guy who's competed with Jordan Burr was forever and obviously he was on the losing side for a while and now he's on the winning side but I think a lot of people thought it was a coin flip and I think actually Kyle Digg made it feel like it's not a coin flip it now to me it feels like Kyle Dake is going to win that match significantly more times than he isn't is what it feels like yeah I forgot which trials it was was it four years ago or Kyle Dake threw him like he he you saw inklings of of like, oh, wow, there might be eventually a changing of the guard.

[198] Yeah.

[199] So 13, Kyle came out and he had the one throw, but then he lost one of the matches decisively.

[200] And then he was hurt in 14.

[201] And in 16, Kyle Dig actually went up to 86 kilograms.

[202] So actually in 16, at the trials we had, so Jake Herbert was number one seat.

[203] He was former, as Guy Russell, I was a former world silver medalist.

[204] So you had David Taylor, who had not made a team.

[205] yet, who is now a world champion, Olympic champion.

[206] You had Kyle Dake in the bracket, who was a two -time world champion now.

[207] And you had Jayden Cox in the bracket who had not made any teams yet, but is now, what, a four -time world medals, two -time world champion.

[208] So, and then obviously, Jayden came out on top of that, won his first Olympic medal, Olympic bronze medal.

[209] So Kyle didn't wrestle Jordan in 16.

[210] And Kyle's contention the whole time, and they argued about this.

[211] So I actually did a little bit of backstabbing.

[212] It was not, it's not, that's not, that's not.

[213] And both of them were just one?

[214] I didn't tell any of them.

[215] Okay, so Jordan got mad.

[216] So we talked about this fake match for in Corona, right?

[217] Yeah.

[218] We had to make, we had to make up something to talk about.

[219] Yeah, there's obviously no matches.

[220] So we talk about this fake match and do you stand behind that statement, by the way?

[221] Listen, here's what I said.

[222] Kyle Dick's fourth time I'd say champion.

[223] Yes, I said, you got to pick a, you got to pick a winner.

[224] I said, Kyle Dick wins 2 -1 on a minute and six ride time, which, I mean, is literally, we're talking as close as it gets, as close as it gets for Kyle Dick, because of four -time NCAA champion.

[225] I'm sorry.

[226] Sorry, were we talking over Jordan Burroughs.

[227] Over Jordan Burroughs.

[228] In a folks now match.

[229] In a folks -out match.

[230] Hypothetical.

[231] Completely hypothetical.

[232] Now or in college?

[233] In college.

[234] Both have met their peaks at 165 pounds.

[235] So completely hypothetical.

[236] And so Jordan called in.

[237] He was all pissed at me for picking Kyle Dake.

[238] He wants to come on the next day and argue his point.

[239] So I said, F that.

[240] That's dumb.

[241] We need to pick a winner.

[242] We had to do something hypothetical.

[243] So that I called Kyle Dake and I said, Kyle.

[244] Jordan's going to come on and argue his case in the morning.

[245] If he's going to do that, why don't you come in and argue your case?

[246] So no one else knew Kyle was coming on the podcast.

[247] So they both show up and they went at it.

[248] But one of the contentions Kyle had for years, and there's still this rule, if you win a world -level medal, the following year, you sit out until the very end of the American trials.

[249] And they do a best two or three.

[250] So every time previously that Kyle had wrestled Jordan, he had a, come through a tournament on Saturday.

[251] Okay, probably three matches.

[252] And then on Sunday, he would wrestle Jordan and best two out of three, right?

[253] So his contention was, I'm only wrestling Jordan at a disadvantage because I have to compete on Saturday and then competing on, which it's a fair argument.

[254] It really is.

[255] But I also see USA Wrestling's point is like if someone wins a world medal, we're going to reward them because we want that person on the team again.

[256] It's crazy, though, that you're like Kyle Dake had to wrestle because he's not wrestling bums in that division.

[257] Yeah.

[258] And, yeah, I don't know.

[259] I don't know how wrestlers do it because you have to go to war like three matches and then face Jordan Burroughs.

[260] Yeah, especially a few of those years with, you know, day cad, the name Andrew Howell, but there was a really competitive matches.

[261] David Taylor had really competitive matches with him.

[262] Isaiah Martinez even got in there at Dieringer.

[263] So he had some really competitive matches before he ever got to Jordan Burroughs.

[264] So I never answered your initial question was how did I feel?

[265] So the Jordan Burroughs match, I was not in wrestling shape at all, meaning.

[266] Wrestling's heavily dependent, especially neutral positions, heavily dependent on timing and other things.

[267] I was wrestling very, very minimally because I started fighting again.

[268] So like my athletic shape was great, but it was mainly for fighting.

[269] I wasn't wrestling.

[270] So I think they were actually trying to do Burroughs dake at beat the streets.

[271] It's the biggest fundraiser in wrestling every single year.

[272] In New York.

[273] In New York City.

[274] They usually raised like a million.

[275] they started all these programs in New York City which I really wonder what they're doing with the money now because they probably can't have the kids wrestling because New York's crazy.

[276] I think New York figures out a way what to do with the money.

[277] Hence Michael Mal's complaining that they're corrupt and all that.

[278] But it goes to the beat the street's organization who then starts the clubs in New York.

[279] So I don't know what to do the money.

[280] Anyway, so I was called like, I don't know, two weeks before the event and said, hey, you know, someone was to wrestle Jordan Burroughs that fell out.

[281] Would you wrestle him?

[282] I said, yeah, sure, why not?

[283] You know?

[284] And it's like, listen, I train with them for four days the year before.

[285] I had a pretty good idea how the match was going to go.

[286] It wasn't going to go so well for me. But it's like, okay, you're missing a main event.

[287] I can bring, because of where I met right now in my life, I can bring a lot of attention to wrestling.

[288] I can help you guys raise a bunch of money for beat the streets.

[289] My goal is, I thought I could get one takedown or turn on him was kind of my goal for the match.

[290] I didn't get there.

[291] He went kind of hard.

[292] He went hard.

[293] yeah that asshole can give me a point yeah that that I said this is bullshit you're I told him you're the match like this is bullshit you're fucking going too hard right now yeah I'm not a wrestle I'm not a wrestling I'm a fighter I'm coming in here so yeah so I had a really good idea I mean we wrestled together I think in it and he'll probably get mad because I think in the live go we did like the 12 or 15 minutes I think I actually scored a take down in that I believe maybe or maybe it was a turn he'll probably say no I didn't but whatever yeah so I I knew what was going to happen I I knew what the outcome would it's going to be i knew i could probably hope i can stay competitive and maybe you know lose like 10 to or something like yeah well let's walk back because i think uh i originally brought it up in terms of how prepared were you against uh jake paul versus uh jurner burroughs yeah so did you prepare for jake cardio wise yeah i i worked yeah i did but it was i told you i started training for my i mean once once i had my hip surgery yeah they said uh you know for the first six weeks, you can't even walk.

[294] And it was hard for me to listen to him because by week four and a half, five, I was feeling pretty good.

[295] I want to get into my crutches.

[296] But I'm like, you know what?

[297] This is for the rest of my life.

[298] And if you get the real hip replacement, there's no wrestling.

[299] There's no nothing.

[300] Right?

[301] So that's the next step.

[302] So, okay, I'm going to take this year.

[303] So I do my crush with the six weeks.

[304] The next six weeks, it's still like really low weight bearing, can't, yes, do anything, you know?

[305] So then I get done with the three months, which is like January.

[306] and I'm like, okay, I should start working out.

[307] So I started riding a bike a little bit.

[308] And then, okay, now I'm fucking fat.

[309] I'm going to get in better shape because I haven't been able to do anything.

[310] So I'm actually starting out.

[311] And then that happened, right?

[312] So I'm like, okay, well, now I got three months.

[313] And it gives me a good reason to get back in shape.

[314] And, you know, I knew I wasn't going to be a full -time boxer.

[315] So it's like, how do I put a boxing camp together?

[316] So I found, you know, I had my old teammate Mike Rhodes.

[317] He came up and kind of lived.

[318] with me ish kind of thing for three months uh i found a couple this guy canine out of michigan he came over three weeks he was great i went to freddie roach for a week so i kind of like you know try to get him good as ideas as i could and my thought was like okay well if this dude sucks i can just be tough and you know block a few punches get him tired and then beat him up if he's good that's probably not much of my do about in the next three months because i'm i'm i was never good at boxing in the first place all of my stand -up in mixed martial arts was predicated on how do I get through the two or three punches that are going to come at me in the time I need to get a hold of them you know it's only you only have to make two or three of the miss and then boom you're on top of them at least for me um that was all my striking was predicated on it wasn't about hey I'm going to damage on the feet in order to make something else happen it was like how do I clear this barrier get a hold of you and if you I actually did the math one time I think I got to take down if you include the knockout round against mas vedal I got to take down in every round except two.

[319] So it was like, it was like 53 out of 55 rounds.

[320] In MMA, I got a take down.

[321] Wow.

[322] Somewhere in there.

[323] Okay.

[324] So you're hunting the take down once you, once you get your hands on them, you get the take down.

[325] Yeah.

[326] Okay.

[327] But the incredible thing about you, I just recently talked, spent a couple of days with Jimmy Pedro.

[328] And he talked about his guys and just champions in general, hating to lose more than they love winning.

[329] and the way you talked about losing, you lost very few times in your career, like later, you were dominating both the wrestling and MMA.

[330] But the way you took these losses against people that are, I don't know, below elite level.

[331] It's fair.

[332] I was going to get pissy, but it's completely fair.

[333] I thought he was a bum too.

[334] No, that's not what I meant.

[335] Oh, man, I'm in trouble.

[336] It's okay.

[337] No, it's good.

[338] No, no, no, but like, what can you, explain the psychology behind that like the what is there a system behind this is their philosophy behind this well so i i wasn't very good in the beginning and i think i think that's where all starts from so i didn't start getting good until the age of like 13 i started at five i probably started competing more at age 10 11 didn't really get good till 13 it's still at 13 i'm i'm saying i'm great i'm getting better right i'm pretty good um so actually i've actually i have i have writing this book on sports psych but this it's i got well i got someone to write it for me kind of thing because i've had this philosophy for years that there's there has to be this balance between two things right so on the one hand in this category on the one hand you have hating to lose a great champion has to hate to lose like you said right but on this other hand you have to have someone who seeks out challenges right because if you don't have that you're never going to reach your full potential either and so you have to balance these two balls at the same time right and and and and And so, like, for me, I always, and this is maybe because I wasn't good, but I was always like, let me go find the best people to wrestle all the time.

[339] Let me go find.

[340] I would like literally, like, seven days grade when I was starting to get better.

[341] It was like, and this was there on the internet.

[342] Well, there was no one was using the internet.

[343] It was like a wrestling magazine.

[344] And like, hey, dad, there's a tournament here.

[345] I think that, are the kids going to be there?

[346] Can you take me two hours across the state today, please?

[347] You would wrestle, like, in competition against them.

[348] In competition.

[349] Yeah, yeah, in competition.

[350] Hey, I heard there's this tournament.

[351] Here's the magazine.

[352] as this tournament, hey, Dad, will you take me over there tomorrow?

[353] You weren't trying to win, you were trying to get the experience?

[354] I was trying to wrestle the best guys.

[355] Maybe I win, maybe I lose.

[356] When you used to do a competition, there's no guarantee of a win or a loss.

[357] You're just doing competition, right?

[358] So I wanted to go, I wanted to challenge myself against the best guys, of which I thought maybe I could come out on top, right?

[359] So like eighth grade year, I won way, way, you know, I probably won a lot of lost a handful of times in the state of Wisconsin.

[360] It's probably really, really minimal the amount of times I lost, you know?

[361] but it was just about getting the challenge and it's like some kids and not kids in my club because I'll push them very hard on this are scared of challenging themselves they like being the big fish in the small pond they're not willing to go say I want to go get that guy and I want to get that guy and I want to get that guy and so that's like so I think that's part of it for me is like I always just love the challenge I enjoyed competing thoroughly right and I understood from a young age because it wasn't very good losing is a part of it you're not always going to win and that was kind of it It's like, hey, sometimes, you know, and for my MMMA career, I never planned it to go that way.

[362] But, yeah, I didn't lose for nine years.

[363] And, like, that's pretty rare.

[364] I didn't plan for that to happen.

[365] That was just what happened.

[366] Okay, but you also didn't lose, like, the second part of your college career.

[367] My 87, I won my last 87 matches.

[368] Yeah.

[369] So that didn't come along with the hatred of losing?

[370] You just...

[371] I don't like losing.

[372] I still don't like it.

[373] Yeah.

[374] Yeah, I would have much other...

[375] Okay.

[376] But you don't, you don't seem to kind of shrug it off a little bit.

[377] Okay, so like specifically with these two instances that you bring up.

[378] With the Mazvedal, it feels definitely, so, okay.

[379] All right, let's go deep.

[380] Let's go deep.

[381] So the Mazvedal one, it feels different because.

[382] So, whoa, wait, wait, wait, wait, for people who don't know, okay.

[383] Mazvedal loss was your first loss.

[384] First loss in MMA.

[385] Yeah.

[386] Yeah.

[387] And, I mean, it was a dramatic loss.

[388] Very dramatic.

[389] And there was this kind of build -up as you were potentially one of the greats of all time coming into this fight.

[390] And so there's pressure, all of that.

[391] So, I mean, I was thoroughly enjoying it.

[392] I didn't feel the pressure.

[393] So the Mazvito fight is, he got one fucking move on me. It's not like he beat me. And if we do that again, I think I win.

[394] At that point in my life, for sure, I think I win way, way, way more times than I live.

[395] lose.

[396] He knew that too.

[397] That's why he didn't want to sound the bottom agreement.

[398] That's why I had to taunt him and why he got so mad because I had to continue to taunt him in order to get him to sign, right?

[399] So that one hurt because, as if people don't know, I may make sure, I'll just go through fast.

[400] I did three fights in like smaller leagues.

[401] I got signed by Bellator.

[402] I was unafeated for three and a half years.

[403] I was nine and oh.

[404] When I got done with that in 2012, 12, 2013, at that point in my head, I was just going to transition to the UFC because that's where you go.

[405] I was ranked like six in the world.

[406] I hadn't really had a competitive match at the end of the Bellator thing.

[407] And Dana White, for a reason is still unknown to me. We still haven't had this conversation.

[408] I wish I could ask him.

[409] I should ask him sometime, chose to refuse me any entry into UFC.

[410] He just said, I went to his office, and he literally said, we're not interested.

[411] we're not going to make you an offer did you did you mention something to about him about the that that was a year before that that was a year before that that might play a role in it i think so uh yes what happened the year before that was uh i called him a liar which but listen i'm right on this one because he said you can't test for drugs because i'm i'm all natural which you could tell by my physique um and i was always put off by the fact that so many people cheated and i i was very vocal about that.

[412] And so he had made some statement like, oh, well, there's no way you can test.

[413] I said, bullshit.

[414] Very specifically, I said, USADA does it for all other sports worldwide, you can do it.

[415] And then it was funny because I hired Usada a couple years later.

[416] So I think he took some offense to that.

[417] But that was like a year and almost a year and half, I think somewhere later.

[418] It's not like he holds a grudge or anything.

[419] Yeah.

[420] So I literally go to Vegas.

[421] It's a long story.

[422] You can read about it other places.

[423] So I got released from a belt.

[424] It was not like this is a negotiation.

[425] I got released from my belt or contract.

[426] I said, I'm out of here.

[427] I'm going to go to the UFC.

[428] I go to Vegas, and then I was told, hey, there's no offer for you.

[429] Tough shit, you know.

[430] So then I ended up signing with one championship.

[431] I spent, what, three and a half years there.

[432] I won the belt in my second fight and retained the title the entire time.

[433] And then I just, I get dominating people.

[434] Yeah, I didn't have a competitive fight.

[435] And so I retired 18.

[436] know, never, never get, and for someone who loves a challenge, never getting to really challenge myself was incredibly frustrating.

[437] And I left the door open.

[438] I said, if I ever get the chance to prove him this world, I'd love to come back.

[439] So somehow a year later, I get traded.

[440] Trades have never happened.

[441] This is the one and only trade ever.

[442] I got, I've been retired for a year.

[443] I got traded.

[444] I get to come back.

[445] I fight Robbie Lawler the first fight.

[446] I win.

[447] And then essentially they're saying, okay, if you fight, you know, if you beat George, you're going to get the title against Marty and it's like this is this is what I've been working for the entire I've been trying to prove I was the best part of the world for the last 10 years and I have I've not been afforded this opportunity um so when I lost to George that was that was hard because I it was something that I had waited for for a really really long time it was something that I you know I thought I could compete for it I never got the opportunity to do so that one was hard um at the same time from like just a competitive logistic and it's like he got me with one move it wasn't like he beat my ass for 15 minutes and I got beat a bunch of different ways so that was like fuck like if I get it again I could have done it but I'm not they're not gonna let me have it again it's not like wrestling where you could go the next year or the next week or whatever you know you lose a big tens you go to nationals two weeks later does that loss change you in any way your psychology I don't I don't think so it's the first loss I mean had I had a longer MMA career post that there definitely would have been a lot of time spent getting better at the entry point to the takedown, right?

[448] Which I'd already spent time there.

[449] I hate making excuses, but yeah, the hip, the hinging of my hip, what I couldn't do was preventing me from doing some things.

[450] And it's why, if you look at the fight, I'm like bent over as they go for the double leg.

[451] So what happened for people who don't know, you went in for a double leg, and he went, he did a flying knee and it caught you well.

[452] Specifically, the way he did that knee was kind of different than the way anyone had thrown flying knees before.

[453] or most people go more just from a stand straight vertical, whereas he took a few running steps and went more, you know, the trajectory of the angle was different.

[454] So I think that's kind of probably why it caught, you know, I think a lot of things in combat, well, probably everything, but I focus specific in combat, have been subconsciously.

[455] Like, our brain is reading what's coming at us and lost times it's stuff we've seen before so we can judge how to move correctly.

[456] And you misread because it's something you haven't seen it for.

[457] Had not seen him come at that specific angle.

[458] Yeah.

[459] So that loss was really hard.

[460] With the Burroughs won, I told you, I knew I was going to lose.

[461] So it was like, whatever.

[462] You know, I'm taking this because I want to put the sport of wrestling out there in a big way.

[463] I want to help them raise a lot of money.

[464] We sold up Madison Square Garden, Hulu Theater, and we raised a whole bunch of money.

[465] So my goals were accomplished.

[466] Jake Paul fight, I took it because they paid me all the much money, and I thought it was going to be fun.

[467] Did I have any illusion?

[468] I was a great boxer, no illusions whatsoever.

[469] Would I have preferred to win?

[470] Absolutely.

[471] But, you know, like I told everyone, whether I win or lose on Saturday night, I'm going to be back coaching wrestling on Monday because that's what I enjoy doing, and I was back coaching wrestling on Monday.

[472] And once in a while, these middle school kids give me a little bit shit about it.

[473] That's it.

[474] That's about it.

[475] Where were you in terms of your shape and how you felt in the Mazadal fight?

[476] would you say you're on the i mean it's a difficult question to ask of of a world class athlete but like were you past peak oh yeah yeah and so i don't know i don't know why guys like to lie about that i mean the peak for me was really evidently in my late 20s um and maybe they are all fueled by extra supplements i don't know but for me that that was evident but you get this so you get this crosshair where um you're if you're smart like you know, like I mentioned John Burroughs was, you're still gaining wisdom, you're gaining a lot of things, right?

[477] And so while your physicality may go down, your overall skill level still may be rising, especially in MMA because people usually start later because they're gaining wisdom, strategy, all of the, maybe more tools in their toolbox, right?

[478] They're getting all these things.

[479] So their actual competitive peak, despite their athletic peak going down, might still be a few years past that, right?

[480] Because these things are crossing.

[481] No, so I thought I was great.

[482] obviously the hip was an issue um it's funny because so that i knew i had a lot of pain here and i knew it was because of this and it was like okay whenever i'm done i'll just get it taken care of whatever uh but i every time i train i would have pain kind of like all up my back and the day after the surgery i woke up and there was no pain on the right side of my surgery is on the left side there's no pain on my back i'm like that's fucking weird like every morning i wake up there's a lot of pain there you know um like okay well i'm on pain pills maybe it'll maybe it'll come back tomorrow and this that's really never never been back since my oh wow so it was weird because it was like this i thought this was affecting this but it was affecting all the way across my whole back so you know if i if i if i if i i don't know this is going to change the competitive outcome whatsoever if i had known how good the hip replacement was going to be i would have done it the second i retired from one championship in November of 2017, I would have my hip surgery scheduled for December 1.

[483] Just from a lifestyle standpoint, I could only sleep in one position.

[484] There's a lot of things I couldn't do.

[485] I was in a lot of pain.

[486] So I would have done that a lot earlier.

[487] But no, from my athletic point, I was ready to eat.

[488] This shit goes wrong sometimes.

[489] I don't know how to ask this, but, you know, Joe Rogan, me, had a sense about you similar to, like, Fador, that you are potentially one of the greatest ever.

[490] Yeah.

[491] Does it hurt that you're not in the discussion now of being in the top 10 of all time?

[492] I didn't prove it.

[493] I don't deserve it.

[494] Be it.

[495] I mean...

[496] But I didn't prove it.

[497] I mean, so it's like, had I somehow gotten to convince Dana White and convince him in 2013 to make me an offer, and I didn't even need a good offer, I needed any offer.

[498] Had I gotten the offer then, maybe the outcome's different, right?

[499] But given, I would never expect anyone to think of me that way.

[500] I didn't prove it.

[501] I know what I was, and I'm good with that.

[502] And, yeah, other people never got to see that.

[503] Do you think, well, you can't know fully, right?

[504] Do you think if you went to the UFC at that time instead of won championship?

[505] I think it would have had a lot of success.

[506] Yeah, I mean, there's obviously certain guys, there's a lot of guys I've trained with that I had a lot of really good results against.

[507] and um who was the walter weight at that tyrant was a champion for a long time there so i was around tyrant was a champion anthony was a champion at lightweight i was you know the same gym as him and we had a lot of people coming through yeah i did you face tyron would i have fought him i don't think so i mean so he was still the champion when i came into dFC and we said no we were not going to fight all right hey so he can't change history right so once something happens you got to accept for what it is and move forward and and obviously hope you can continue to keep accomplishing great things which for me obviously my athletic career is over so now it's going to be through my wrestling academies and you know who knows what else i get get into oh you might do exhibition matches all that kind of stuff right wrestling and stuff no uh i don't think so so here's my thing with the wrestling matches is like just for fun if you said hey ben just for fun yeah would you love to go wrestle someone yeah i would I would, right?

[508] I love wrestling.

[509] I get in there.

[510] You know, I love, like, so one of my guys has gotten to be pretty good.

[511] He's in college.

[512] He got him, Keegan O'Toole.

[513] He just won a junior world title this year.

[514] And so when I'm doing private lessons, I have such a thing about the development of the athlete.

[515] Sometimes I can wrestle hard, but most of the time it's like, I'm just going to help them with whatever they need help with.

[516] And it's still wrestling, and it's fun, but it's helping them.

[517] You know, for like, for Keegan comes back this summer and he's trained for the general world title.

[518] So to be able to just shake hands sometimes and say, like, ass you try to kick my ass you know like just to go like yeah it's a good feel it's so much fun and i don't get to do that very much so if you said ben would you love to do some matches and the answer is yeah the problem unfortunately for me and maybe you can talk me off a light here is like because of where i've gotten to my career if i choose to do wrestling match it it's going to people are going to be really excited about it's going to pull up and it's like i just want to wrestle just to wrestle i'd rather just like go in a room where no one can watch and just wrestle I just enjoy it well you could also wrestle so there's different kinds of wrestling there's wrestling with it's an event and like you know there's a build -up and an announcement yeah and you can also do like uh kabib style like in the room there's cameras and you're kind of going it's like kabib does that no in uh marcell did that he wop my ass a few yeah exactly i mean i've seen kabb some videos okay it's not like set up it's just people going hard and then it's more fun Yeah.

[519] You know, and it's, it's also more, like, presenting the beauty of the sport.

[520] Yeah, for sure.

[521] And, like, and there's no winning or losing really in that context.

[522] Yeah, yeah.

[523] Like, you're just, you're always joking around a little bit, even when you go super hard.

[524] So I feel like, especially in the modern day with the internet, that's a compelling way to do.

[525] So I've thought about, this is the one thing I thought about doing, because I told you about my buddy was the content thing.

[526] It's called Rock Finn.

[527] I thought about doing, you know, the old, really famous Gracie challenge.

[528] Yeah.

[529] Okay.

[530] So I thought about doing the Ascran challenge.

[531] Do you want to hear my rule set?

[532] Yeah, let's go.

[533] I'm not sure I'm going to do this.

[534] People are going to show up to your, like in Wisconsin.

[535] I have to select you.

[536] I'll start with a thousand bucks, right?

[537] All right.

[538] 30 minutes.

[539] You pin me or I pin you.

[540] That's it.

[541] No points, no nothing.

[542] We just wrestle.

[543] Camera, that's it, right?

[544] It's camera in the room.

[545] Maybe there's a refree because we don't want there to be content over the pin.

[546] Just one pin.

[547] Just one pin.

[548] 30 minutes, 30 minutes, okay?

[549] If I pin you, you don't get shit, you go home, right?

[550] Every person I pin it goes up by $1 ,000, $2 ,000, $3 ,000, $4 ,000 ,000, and so on.

[551] If you make it the distance and I don't pin you and you don't pin me, I'll pay for your travel and give you $500.

[552] Right?

[553] Just a kind of consolation price for showing up.

[554] If you pin me, you get whatever the jackpot is.

[555] Wait, who's adding to the jackpot?

[556] I am.

[557] It's my money.

[558] But then what's the incentive to keep winning for you?

[559] Because the jackpot is going to keep money.

[560] Some content somewhere and people would watch it.

[561] Oh, so you're going to make money.

[562] Yeah, so you'd make money that way.

[563] But it's not exponentially growing, right?

[564] It's just going up by like...

[565] Yeah, I really think there's probably only a couple people that could pin me. So I would just not choose those people or wait till I get a really larger audience and people get really excited.

[566] In that case, I'm making a lot of money.

[567] So what do you think how many matches would go with you?

[568] Like, Caldick shows up.

[569] I don't think he could pin me. I mean, like, so Jordan Burroughs could beat me, but he can't pin me. He was never a pinner.

[570] Yeah.

[571] He ain't going to pin me. there's only a few people who have the skill level to do so right it takes a lot because so pinning was one of my specialties i had the fourth most of all time and i won the pinning award the last two years um so and then even down on points and just pin them this actually one of the issues i have with jiu jih Tzu and the point system and the eddie bravo thing i actually think eddie bravo things kind of people get so mad at me sorry jitu i think it's bullshit and you want me to tell you why it's bullshit yeah so like if jordan bruro's whoops my ass and the score is 16 to two but he can't pin me then i get to go to overtime and get a cradle on him i'm probably going to pin him so i'm better than jordan burroughs no they ain't right he just wop my ass do you know what i'm saying like if we can go to the whole because they do submission only so if jordan bros beats me up for what's the eight minutes 10 minutes i don't know what's the length of an adie bravo match yeah i don't know something like that yeah so we go 10 me and jorne bros go 10 minutes he's going to outscore me significantly but he will not pin me i promise you that Okay, so now we go to the overtime.

[572] Strong words, but yeah.

[573] He won't wait, Jordan Brose is not going to, he's going to beat me. I will give you that.

[574] Kyle Dake won't pin you either.

[575] No. They will both beat me on points very badly.

[576] Now, David Taylor, he might pin me because he's a very good pinner also.

[577] They'll beat me very badly.

[578] They will not pin me. But now we get to overtime and we get to pick like, right?

[579] So in a Bravo, you get a rear -negated choke or an arm bar.

[580] Okay, give me a cradle.

[581] I'll probably pin them, okay, a good cradle.

[582] you can say cradle or maybe give them hands they're probably not going to pin me right maybe maybe there's a chance but probably not because that's just not their specialty so for people who don't know the Eddie Eddie Bravo thing is uh when it goes into overtime you get a dominant position on a person and you get to yeah basically put them in a cradle this is the wrestling equivalent yeah but you uh take their back maybe an arm bar yeah wrestling arm bar yeah so and i don't think that's very fair because if someone whoops your ass they whoop your ass and then you know and so i think the reason why jujitsu people accept that rule set is that i don't think i think they know this but would admit it i don't think their their point scoring system adequately rewards what people value so like in wrestling we value takedowns because it gets closer to the pin and the the most valuable scoring is a near fall near to the pin because that's the ultimate goal to sport whereas in jihitsu for example like if i were to get a takedown uh so like if i went to gordon ryan and he just didn't pull guard i would probably get the takedown now if somehow he didn't submit me which he probably would right but say he got got close to like 12 submissions but somehow i slipped out of all of them now i win two zero like that's ridiculous like he should very clearly win because he almost submitted you know what i'm saying like there and i and i realized the difficulty i realize the difficulty in rewarding near submissions but that is the most valuable thing is getting close to finishing the match and in most competitions they don't actually reward that but okay so this this isn't about the sport this This is about the Ben Ascran challenge that we're talking about.

[583] Okay, why 30 minutes?

[584] Why not unlimited time?

[585] Hmm.

[586] Why go until whenever?

[587] Well, because then it's just a cardio thing because at some point, then someone would just have to fall over dead, right?

[588] There's no more skill level involved.

[589] It's just who can stand up the longest.

[590] You honestly don't think.

[591] 30 minutes is a cardio thing, too.

[592] How do you think that's actually going to look?

[593] Kyle Day going against you for 30 minutes.

[594] So it's going to be kind of boring.

[595] morning, for the most part.

[596] What position are you going to be stuck in?

[597] Well, you can't, but you just can't have a gigantic amount of action for 30 minutes.

[598] So I relate to, because some of my kids, when I'm teaching them wrestling, they're like, well, but I can't do that for seven minutes.

[599] And I'm like, well, you know, say if I had you do hang cleans at a relatively heavy weight as hard as you could, you're not going to last seven minutes.

[600] You're going to, your pace will slow down, right?

[601] So my thing is like, well, your pace doesn't step to step here because I'm wrestling, you're competing at someone.

[602] So if you're here at 100 and you go to 80, but they go to 70, that's great.

[603] And then you go to 60, but they go to 40, this is even better, right?

[604] Because the gap is growing.

[605] So we don't necessarily, if we get tired, that's fine.

[606] If they get more tired, that's better.

[607] So I think most people would know that so they would kind of slow it down.

[608] But, yeah, I think in 30, I mean, I've wrestled 30 minute goes.

[609] I've wrestled an hour long go.

[610] you're not going to get so tired you're going to fall over in that time period but at some point if it's unlimited someone will get so tired or dehydrated that they're just going to freaking fall over yeah but you think what about making it exciting and dynamic you think the other person is always going to be going for the pin and thereby make a dynamic well if they're working that hard then they might exhaust themselves right and and obviously then if you're being that dynamic then you're adding risk to yourself too because you are, you know, doing that.

[611] Well, I love this.

[612] This is a great idea.

[613] Well, I figure I'd rack up like 20 pins against bums, you know, or not as great people in the beginning.

[614] And then I would start bringing in better people because they would be enticed by, you know, $20 ,000, the possibility to win.

[615] And not much fanfare, just the camera and just the local.

[616] That's it.

[617] In my wrestling room.

[618] Yeah, yeah, like the Gracie Challenge.

[619] Yes.

[620] Yeah.

[621] And so then maybe you have like, you know, for most people, you have someone edit like the 90 seconds of the most fun things that happen and then you can watch the entire 30 minutes if you want to.

[622] I mean I think most people if they're not really, really elite, I'm probably going to pin them.

[623] If they're not really elite.

[624] So, yeah, but I don't know.

[625] That's something I've been thinking about.

[626] This has just been like fun for me to think about.

[627] Obviously it plays in my skill sets because my cardio is good and my pinning is good also.

[628] So, yeah.

[629] So like you said, You weren't very good in your early days until 13, 14.

[630] What was the switch?

[631] You started to dominate people.

[632] In your college career, you dominated.

[633] And obviously, you stopped losing at some point.

[634] Yeah.

[635] So, well, I would say, so even when I didn't lose in collegiate competition, I would go in the summers and try to make the world team.

[636] So I would lose some, not a lot, right, minimally.

[637] Okay, so when I'm five, I start playing all sports.

[638] It's like, I know you moved to America at what age?

[639] 13.

[640] Okay, so five, at least I don't know what it was for you, but in America, at my age, you usually play like a sport every season, right?

[641] So that's what I did in the beginning.

[642] I had minimal success in wrestling.

[643] I was kind of chunky.

[644] And then in fifth grade, I don't, and I can't tell you, I want to be better.

[645] And I told my parents, and it's funny because now I look at other 11 -year -olds and very few of them are this mature.

[646] And I actually think emotional maturity is kind of, kind of one of the key indicators of how long -term success is someone's going to be.

[647] And in age 11, I said, I don't want to play baseball.

[648] And I like baseball, but I don't want to play baseball because I want to wrestle more because I'm going to get better at wrestling.

[649] So age 11, I quit baseball so I could wrestle in a club for March, April, and May. Because that was all that existed at that point in time.

[650] You couldn't wrestle in June, July, or any of those other months.

[651] What was that desire to get better?

[652] What is that?

[653] So it's not about winning.

[654] I don't know where it came from.

[655] I just want to get better.

[656] I want to be good at this.

[657] I want to be good at this.

[658] So when you're looking at kids now, as a coach, you're looking for that.

[659] Somebody who says, you know what, I kind of suck.

[660] I want to get better.

[661] And I want to try to also inspire that.

[662] I mean, honestly, I think as a coach, that's probably my biggest job is to get a kid and get them to believe I can do this.

[663] Because if I can do this, I can do that.

[664] I can do that too, right?

[665] And there's so many kids who unfortunately have, like, shitty parents or bad teachers that tell them, you suck, you can't be anything, right?

[666] So I think my biggest goal as a coach is to get someone to believe they can do it.

[667] So actually some of the ones that believe they can do it, they're the most fun, but they're not the ones who need it the most, right?

[668] The ones who think they can are the ones that need me the most.

[669] Yeah.

[670] Because they need someone to, let's go.

[671] So I don't know what inspired me. I'm not sure.

[672] So age 11, fifth grade, I quit.

[673] So then I started having more success, you know, where I'm like, say, placing at the state tournament.

[674] In high school.

[675] So you, right.

[676] fifth so sixth grade i placed like the state local youth state tournament you know so i'm like having more success um seventh grade was the first year i won the youth state tournament um so i'm getting better eighth grade i actually feel like i got pretty good but like when i went to the national tournaments i was still having really minimal success my freshman year i decided to quit football same reason it's like well i need to put more time into this my parents we got my dad luckily got a mat in my basement so you know there's no so we have a year -round club and our impetus was that we didn't have this opportunity to go to a club year round so we had a mat in my basement had to go find hey you want to come wrestle yeah to find partners for myself what'd you do did you drill did you uh live wrestle what'd you do in that basement so actually i think you'll enjoy this i think the start of my scrambling was was kind of based around that so i got kind of i think it's probably my freshman sophomore i'm kind of the years are a little fuzzy right it's been a while um but probably my freshman sophomore junior year i found two kids who were really consistent who would come out like you would come out on he would come out on a tuesday and this dude would come out on a wednesday right and they would come every week and they were they were really consistent partners for me to have in the summer but they weren't nearly as good as me they were way worse so it's like okay how do i how do i make this kind of like fun and compelling for them to come back so if i just whoop their ass they're not going to come back you know so it was like i would let them get as close as they could as i think thought they could do a takedown before not getting it and then tried to like escape or get out so obviously if i let them get really close sometimes they get it you know so they're they're enjoying it i don't know if they ever knew i was doing this right i have no idea um and that that was kind of like the start because i had to figure my way out of bad positions because i had to try to make it entertaining for them where they still got something out of it and they wanted to come back the next week and i also got something out of it yeah i love this yeah because that relationship is so important with that like that I've had a few drilling partners training partners that were really important to my life and I always wondered why it's difficult why it's so difficult to find them yeah like I if anyone's listening to this I'm looking for a judo person in the Austin area actually getting the reps with people is hard even in jiu jihitsu that it's just like people want to do the fun stuff they don't want to really put in the work and it takes a certain kind of personality.

[677] And then you also have to make it fun for the other person, just like you said, if there's a skill mismatch, but also if you have an interest mismatch in terms of the amount of drilling you want to do, all that kind of stuff.

[678] You have to figure out ways to make it fun.

[679] It's tricky.

[680] So you did.

[681] So, yeah, I think I did that, and no one told me. I get frustrated because now we have, you know, just in my academy, we probably have 50, 60 high school kids only that are year -round, They're year -round.

[682] You know, maybe they're not consistent in the summer or whatever, but they're there.

[683] So when they don't have a great partner, they start whining.

[684] It's like, you little bitches.

[685] Like, you know, some days they get really mad about it because it's like, I had no partners.

[686] I had to find freaking two partners come twice a week.

[687] You guys, there's still 22 people in the room.

[688] I'm sorry there's not the perfect partner for you, but like, go work out with that dude.

[689] Yeah.

[690] You know?

[691] And get, yeah.

[692] So what was the switch that changed?

[693] Or was this gradual?

[694] Gradual.

[695] Okay.

[696] Yeah.

[697] So, let's do it.

[698] So ninth grade, I quit football because I want to get really serious.

[699] What position football?

[700] I was actually a nose tackle.

[701] But at that point, so I was also, the other thing I kind of left over here, I was really fat growing up.

[702] In sixth grade, I also decided, okay, I'm really fat.

[703] And if I want to be competitive wrestling, I shouldn't be fat because weight matters.

[704] I went from 130 pounds to 100 pounds in sixth grade.

[705] So by the time I was a freshman, I was 119.

[706] So I still wasn't as heavy as it was in sixth grade.

[707] So I was pretty small too, but I was also slow, unfortunately.

[708] So they put me a nose tackle.

[709] I like the compativeness.

[710] I was decent at it.

[711] So that's where you wrestle 119?

[712] My freshman year, yeah.

[713] So, yeah.

[714] So then I still, I would start having a lot of success statewide, but not nationally.

[715] It's my national success income to, like, my junior year in high school.

[716] But yeah, I was like grinding and getting better the whole time.

[717] And then senior year, I started having a lot of success nationally and I got recruited.

[718] And then, but then even when my freshman year of college, this is where I love competing, I would go every weekend because I knew, if you take the emotions out of competition, All it is is seeing your failures, acknowledging them, and then figuring out what you need to work on, right?

[719] If we take all the emotion out of it, that's what it is.

[720] So I wrestled 50 matches as a redshirt freshman, which is incredibly rare.

[721] I had 10 losses.

[722] So it's not like to not so great guys, you know?

[723] So like my skill level still at that point was not that great.

[724] And then the next year I came out and I made the NCAA finals.

[725] So my, I made a gigantic jump in that redshirt year to the real freshman year.

[726] So a few questions.

[727] Where did the funk style of wrestling, the creative style get developed, at which stage?

[728] So I think, like, looking retroactively, there was no intention to start when I was in high school with those kids.

[729] But I think that's kind of like what was happening, right?

[730] So what I would really say is I had one influential coach, my retro year of college, named Mike Ironman, great guy.

[731] But then the second thing was it was just out of necessity.

[732] I had this burning desire to be the best.

[733] And when I was getting my ass kicked every day in the room, because we had, you know, the tireman was there.

[734] We had All -American 157.

[735] We had All -American at 184.

[736] So I wasn't having a ton of success.

[737] And very quickly, I realized from like a more traditional athletic perspective, strength and speed, I couldn't keep up with anyone.

[738] I was way worse.

[739] So it's like, okay, fuck, how do I do this?

[740] You know, I want to do this.

[741] How do I do this?

[742] There's got to be a way.

[743] You know, so Mike Ironman showed me a couple things, but then it was just like this creative expansion for the next, you know, say three to five years.

[744] And then even now it's like, I don't know, there's something, and maybe you feel this way about judo or there's something that's like fun about the way the body moves and works and exploring something new and thinking about, hey, wrestling's been happening at a relative high level for, we'll say, 80 to 90 years in America.

[745] And there's still new things being developed.

[746] And so when you see something, you're like, oh, damn, like, that's great.

[747] Or like, Jason Nolp, man, if they have to win Dixie, I'm like, how did I not think of that shit?

[748] Like, why did I think of that?

[749] I should have thought of that, you know?

[750] So there's just, like, obsession with the sport or wrestling and, you know, positions where I actually think sometimes think I wouldn't have been distracted by my smartphones.

[751] Maybe I wouldn't have been because I was so obsessed, but maybe.

[752] But, you know, some days I couldn't finish the single leg on this specific person or maybe they maybe they were finished.

[753] on me and it was like go home and i just fucking obsessed about that one position like okay how do what what am i missing here and and not just accepting like that whatever the coach says the answer but like what am i missing what ways can my body move that no one's told me it can move yet where can my arms go right where can i do all these things and so i would just obsess about these things and then you know sometimes you come in the next thing you say oh well maybe this you know and maybe it works maybe it doesn't Maybe it works twice and it doesn't work the next time.

[754] And so you kind of like have this creative process and it's like, you know, there's a lot of things that are on the cutting room floor that never made it to the light because you thought they'd be good and they failed and they sucked.

[755] And then, you know, to the point where like my senior year, I got to this point where the people, then they were just figures, figures would wrestle in my head about positions I was thinking about.

[756] I wouldn't tell them what to do.

[757] They would just go in my head.

[758] And then like some of, oh, fuck, wait, that's it.

[759] That's it.

[760] That just happened.

[761] And that's the move, and then I'd go try to practice.

[762] And sure enough, boom, that's the move.

[763] That's exactly where you have Alpha Zero playing, learning chess.

[764] You have, it's called self -plays.

[765] You have, what, did the figures have, like, a clear?

[766] No cases.

[767] They were just like, did they have a human form, or is it just like stick figures, essentially?

[768] It was not like, yeah, it was not like humans.

[769] It was more like stick figures.

[770] It wouldn't stick figures exactly like they were.

[771] They had some volume.

[772] Yeah, it was like a gray person.

[773] and they had, you know, three dimensions, essentially, because I had to see how the things moved.

[774] And, yeah.

[775] I mean, this is exactly what Open AI and DeepMind at Google.

[776] I don't know if you've seen, but there's something called reinforcement learning in artificial intelligence where you have, like, they've done it for, like, sumo wrestling.

[777] You have, like, you have these two stick figures that don't even know how to get up at first.

[778] And they figure out how to stand in their two feet, and then they figure out how to push the other person off of the pedestal.

[779] But what about like when you look at the Boston Dynamics, sometimes they have trouble with like jumping and balancing into other stuff?

[780] So are they doing that same program or no?

[781] No, no, no. This, everything Boston Dynamics is doing is hard -coded.

[782] So it's not learning all the sophisticated movements and strategies like high -level.

[783] strategies and movement that's all something that boston dynamics does not do and if it does it like the parkour stuff that's all hard -coded in oh the people like project and think like these robots have like discovered like how to move in sophisticated ways they haven't well that's what when you and john were talking about the the grappling robot yeah i mean the one thing i was i was obsessing about in my head is that with the chess right if a chess piece move right the horse can move like an L right it can only move like an L it doesn't matter if it moves at two meters per second or seven meters per second it can only it can only move there right whereas like a single leg I can shoot a single leg with many different velocities I can shoot at different angles I can shoot with different amounts of force right I can shoot with my my head up versus my head I mean right all these things are gonna matter we're talking about a human being defending the single leg all of those things are gonna matter and and that's where human human beings who wrestle are calculating those things subconsciously.

[784] They're obviously not consciously calculating in their head, oh, the force is coming at me at this, so I need to do that, right?

[785] They're doing it because.

[786] But see, the thing is, so you would absolutely, if you're doing a robot that you're wrestling, you're going to have to constrain the speed at which it moves and the power that it's able to deliver.

[787] So that presumably there'll be the limitation.

[788] So then it'll be just the same exactly as a human.

[789] But then, but it's like even, so if we go human, max force for Jordan bro's double max force right that's the highest that's the highest we get and then we go down from there even with even within that it's like sometimes I can shoot single leg with a maximum force of I don't say we'll say 20 is a number right I don't know I shoot at 20 because I feel sometimes I shoot at 15 sometimes I shoot at 12 right because you you feel something in your opponent that makes you do differently so they would have to learn how and then you know all these different things and sometimes maybe I clamp a little hard So the robot would have to learn all these different incoming inputs to the system and then create this reaction.

[790] Oh, no, no, 100%.

[791] So this would be all continuous.

[792] So unlike chess, it would not, it's just chess is discreet.

[793] There's, it's one.

[794] You move.

[795] It's a very specific set of moves.

[796] Now here you would, those are all variables.

[797] You control and they're continuous variable.

[798] So the speed, the force, there's actuators.

[799] So there's all these joints, right?

[800] Yeah.

[801] But you can move.

[802] I mean, it's just an optimization problem.

[803] It's kind of fascinating.

[804] So I've been fascinated thinking about it since you guys talked about it.

[805] It was a long time ago.

[806] I listened to it probably three to four weeks going up.

[807] I've kind of been like obsessing about it ever since.

[808] Yeah, it just changes when.

[809] So unlike boxing, for example, or striking, you know, once you grab a hold of somebody, you're now one body.

[810] So it's very complicated.

[811] it's not just shooting a double leg without like maybe doing like like faking a double leg and then shooting the double leg that's very doable with robotics but then like doing a clinch and from there doing like a Russian tie like that that's I think it's way harder than people realize in terms of how many things are involved like the force of the grip the leverage you're providing with all the different parts of the shoulder and the arm and the torso So the twist, how much of your weight are you allocating, like, leaning on the other person, like taking weight off of one of your legs and the other leg, all of that.

[812] I think that's a really interesting thing about humans is we're able to do all of this calculation.

[813] Subconsciously.

[814] Yeah, subconsciously.

[815] Yeah, and that's what I've been thinking about is, like, how many things, even these high school athletes who are, like, getting medium good, are subconsciously thinking about all the time, or not even thinking about reacting to, But then even like for me, I'm, you know, I'm a few Ursumag do better than some of these kids that player.

[816] And so when I go like super hard, it's like I can feel their weight moving the wrong direction.

[817] And so for me to off balance them or trip them or whatever is kind of easy sometimes, you know, because they're not feeling it the right way, right?

[818] Or their timing is just a little bit off or the way they're grabbing the hip, maybe they should be up a little higher, right?

[819] These really small things.

[820] Yeah, I think that's all easy to take advantage of a robot.

[821] It's just, there's so many things.

[822] The big problem is ethically, I don't know how many people are willing to train with a robot because you're going to get hurt.

[823] Well, couldn't you make a robot train with the robot or no?

[824] Yes, but then it's expensive.

[825] So, because they're going to get...

[826] Put the padding on that thing.

[827] I know, but then it's not, you know, it's...

[828] Then, you're not capturing the full...

[829] Why can't you put like some rubber coating?

[830] on them right you know something for that effect you could i mean that you could yeah you could i mean you're talking about robots that are these are humanoid robots so we're talking about 500 ,000 million dollars robots so you would have to be motivated to spend a lot of money to spend a lot of money because you have to have them wrestle for like a lot to get better yeah to get better yeah and then And the open question is, how long does it take to get good enough to be a human?

[831] I don't think we understand, I don't know, I don't think you understand how hard wrestling is.

[832] Yeah.

[833] Like, is it a really hard problem?

[834] Like, what's harder, chess or wrestling?

[835] Wrestling by far.

[836] It's not even close.

[837] That's, yeah, that's the sense.

[838] So, because there's an infinite amount of moves, right, and possibility.

[839] So once I shoot the single leg, now you have.

[840] X amount of choices.

[841] Once you make your choice, now I have a choice, X amount of choices.

[842] Now you have X amount of choices in the defense.

[843] And we can just keep going back and forth, right?

[844] And this number becomes...

[845] Yeah, but the same happens with chess.

[846] Correct.

[847] But then in wrestling, you have to make these movements very instantaneously, right?

[848] Because I should have saying, like, I'm not going to wait and say, what's your defense?

[849] Yeah.

[850] Right?

[851] To be instantaneously.

[852] And then also, again, based on the force and the vectors and the angles, you have to calculate that and adjust.

[853] So really, you know, if you're saying, why I can you should just say, like it's not like moving the chest is not one move right it's if you want to talk about different forces and stuff it could be hundreds or thousands of different moves based on how hard i shoot it the angle the direction all of those things yeah but wait a minute so robots can do this kind of stuff really fast you what i people probably know the physiology of this but it's the the reaction speed for a human is maybe a hundred milliseconds up like that i don't know from sensation to to like from the the signal traveling up to your brain and down i don't know what that number is but uh robots certainly could do it way faster it you would actually have to like constraint the speed well so the robots already killing the chess people right so yeah theoretically they could eventually beat wrestlers but you asked what was hard of wrestling or chess yeah i think wrestling is because of the time component in it and then the and and the physicality of you know is it this force or that force you know because if if i'm going to say say we're in a seatbelt side by side right a wrestling seatbelt not in jiu -jitsu based on the pressure you're giving me I might do a bunch of different things right and so like to an untrained eye they might both look like the same thing from you to a trained feel it's like well in one case it's really evident I should go this one another case is really evident I should go that way so the other thing to consider just like with chess the AI systems so human versus human play a certain way together they actually haven't considered a really large number of strategies that AI systems discover.

[854] So one possibility with a robot, they'll discover certain ties and certain takedown.

[855] That's what I'm saying.

[856] That, like, will dominate no matter what the human does.

[857] You think that, so you think there's that, so I mean, I'm talking about the wrestling so fun is there's, even after 80 to 90 years, there's this continuous evolution.

[858] So you think some like low single type thing, like John Smith type of situation.

[859] Well, like a downbot go behind is something that has really, I would say really in the last five -ish years, really been involved what's it go behind down block go behind so when you should well they is head inside or head outside matters but there's one for both you shoot at me essentially I take my leg like boom and that so that was kind of in existence when I was in college right you down block them and you stop but usually you hit on this side of their head right and now immediately as you shoot I attack that shoulder and then I start hitting a go behind on you right and so like that in its current incarnation it absolutely wasn't wrong I was in college I would say it probably became popular five to seven years ago.

[860] So yeah, there's these big things that are happening.

[861] Now I really want a robot because I want to be ahead of the game.

[862] I want to know what I'm missing.

[863] I mean, one interesting thing you have with Alpha Zero that plays chess is it sacrifices pieces much more than humans do.

[864] So it will give you a piece.

[865] And not only does it give you a piece, it will wait a bunch of moves before it makes you pay.

[866] Because it knows that that's better for the long term long term so like humans rarely sacrificed without getting the piece back like two or three moves after uh alpha zero can wait like five moves so so basically you'll have potentially with wrestling you might have a a robot that like puts itself in bad positions but in a certain kind of way then that will actually lure the opponent in to trap exactly how much that based on well you basically narrow one one thing to do is you narrow the set of choices you put yourself in a bad position but it narrows a set of choices for them because they're not used to it yeah they're not used to it and and then you you drag them into uh into your yeah so but there's also the problem is there's mechanical issues like it's actually just difficult to build robots that uh are able to sense because we have sensation throughout our body yeah it's just difficult to build that kind of robot.

[867] It's expensive.

[868] You start talking about multi -million dollars, and then people start asking questions, why did you invest all of this money?

[869] I don't see what moves they do.

[870] Duh.

[871] Hello?

[872] It could be a better investment.

[873] Okay.

[874] So I mentioned John Smith.

[875] He is, if people don't know, one of the great wrestlers, wrestling coaches ever.

[876] He's also creative like you.

[877] He spoke really highly of you.

[878] What do you think about that guy?

[879] Did you guys ever work together?

[880] Not really.

[881] So you know what?

[882] When I was a senior and I had the people wrestling in my head, I was lucky enough to be doing, I was pretty much graduated.

[883] So I did an independent study with the sports I call.

[884] I was potentially going to a grad school for sports psych.

[885] Well, I actually did nine credits and then I decided I didn't want to do it anymore.

[886] I continued learning on my own.

[887] But I had an independent study with the guy who's head of USA track and field sports psych.

[888] So I guess so the other, here was the class was I got to go sit down and talk with him for an hour and he was like fascinated by me. So he didn't really make him to homework it was like the greatest three credits ever we just talked it was i learned so much it was so awesome um but so i started so one time it came up i had these robot or people wrestling in my head you know and he said well who else do you think i said i bet john smith happened so i went and got john smith number i called him and said hey you ever had these people wrestling in your head and he said yeah but soon they stopped coaching they went away same thing happened to me soon they started coaching they went away so if i really force myself now and i'm like you know i see something in practice.

[889] And it's really a higher level because high school wrestling, I don't want to make you guys feel bad, but it's like it's a little bit lower level, right?

[890] So if like Keegan, for example, who won the journey, if he's struggling with a problem or ask me a question and I can force myself to like see the bodies moving and think about it again, you know, kind of like I was in the early age, but it won't just, it won't just flow there anymore.

[891] So he said it went away and for me it went away also.

[892] By the way, if you can pause on the on the bodies in your head, what like how are they generating new ideas are they just kind of i don't know you tell me so it's just they're just like scrambling in your head it would be specifically based on a problem i was struggling with or a specific position you know kind of it goes in for single and then and then go from there yeah so i'm sitting in geography class and you know i don't have to work that hard because it's easy right and yeah i'm just sitting there like kind of acting like i'm looking at the board and these guys are wrestling and I'm watching them wrestle and yeah sometimes they come up with a really good solution is there somebody you uh looked up to style -wise not gable john smith yeah all these like like legend status people probably gable or it's a cable um john smith after the fact so the problem with wrestling in my era was you couldn't watch it there was no there's no access right it wasn't it wasn't really available even if you want to say go find a bunch of john spitz mat they're kind hard to find right there's a couple of them on youtube but i've obviously seen all of those but in in my era there was there really wasn't any of it so it was hard to be a fan of something and that's why wrestling has his the fans are going like this because now you know you flip on the flow app and you can watch uh you know something that's happening in europe right we can do this easily so we can be a fan of people um so now i'm more a fan of wrestling than i was then because there just was no access so now i can watch someone i like and say oh shit like that guy's wrestling Like, oh, boom, I flip my phone on.

[893] I watch them wrestle, you know, that type of thing.

[894] You know, on a quick rant, it's really frustrating that you can't watch the Olympics.

[895] Oh, my God.

[896] It's so frustrating.

[897] I've been, I think I'm going to go to war.

[898] Go to NBC's headquarters.

[899] I'll go with you.

[900] You got a soldier here.

[901] I was talking to Jimmy, Jimmy Pedro.

[902] He was surprised with this, too.

[903] Most matches, you can't see.

[904] Even you talk about, like, a comeback, Gable Steeleason.

[905] You can't see the full match.

[906] You get like a crappy highlight.

[907] So the two biggest things in really the three.

[908] The NCAA championship is on ASPN.

[909] Yeah.

[910] The Olympic trials are on NBC and the Olympics are NBC.

[911] And these companies are so big, they don't have a department dedicated to selling their rights to that footage, right?

[912] So the rights to wrestling footage, which no one really cares all that much about, except a niche are the exact same as track and field or basketball in the Olympics.

[913] So, yes, all of this stuff is completely inaccessible to us.

[914] The NCAAs, the Olympic trials, and the Olympics, you can't go watch old film on it.

[915] It sucks.

[916] Yeah, old or current film.

[917] Yeah.

[918] So you can't even watch the Gable match?

[919] The Gable Steelers, no. They did a, you know, they do something that annoys the fuck out of me. What?

[920] Okay.

[921] They, they do like a three or two minute highlight.

[922] So it's like they capture the most important thing.

[923] but it's all about the build -up.

[924] Yeah, yeah.

[925] It's like that very beginning when you step on the mat and the nerves and you walk out and like that.

[926] I mean, I don't know.

[927] You miss, then when the triumph happens or the heartbreak happens, it has that much more power.

[928] Yeah, if you want to go to war with NBC or ESPN, I'm happy to join that.

[929] This is bullshit.

[930] IOC.

[931] Well, I mean, does the IFC on those?

[932] is selling that for the Olympics is the one that's making well so NBC broadcast so they obviously have the live rights you would think they would have recorded if they I mean they're the ones recording it you would think they keep the rights when you think no no I they're getting a license of it they're getting exclusive like license but like the you know for example I've had this talk to Travis Stevens the J -Doh player and there's a really sort of famous match.

[933] It's a heartbreak in his career from 2012 Olympics where he goes against a German Ole Bischoff, whatever.

[934] It's a 20 -minute match to go to war.

[935] And that's not available anywhere, but it's uploaded on YouTube and set to private.

[936] The reason I know this is on the IOC channel.

[937] So they've uploaded all of these matches.

[938] They haven't put it up.

[939] So actually, so my Olympic match, the one I won, got put public.

[940] And, And so I don't know if it was private.

[941] It got put up on YouTube.

[942] I was alerted to it the week of my Jake Paul fight.

[943] It was so dumb.

[944] I'm like, why?

[945] This is everything 13 years later.

[946] This is bullshit.

[947] Like, this should have been up.

[948] So, I mean, okay, so what about Olympic trials footage?

[949] That has to be the USOC then or NBC.

[950] So I know, like, okay, so I know Flow, right?

[951] Because I work for them.

[952] I know if Flow buys your event or whatever, right?

[953] They buy the rights.

[954] Generally in the contract, they'll have rights to both live stream.

[955] and then use that footage at any point moving forward.

[956] So those matches live on Flo's website.

[957] That's why I would be surprised that if NBC didn't have something similar.

[958] Flo does a pretty good job of providing like a place where you can watch all these matches.

[959] NBC does not.

[960] Does not, yeah.

[961] And also there's an argument with Flo as well, but certainly with Olympics.

[962] There's a difference between what Flo does and what the Olympics represent.

[963] What do you mean by that?

[964] Like, it feels like the Olympics, which is what the charter says, should be as accessible as possible.

[965] Yes, that's true.

[966] Like, you should really lower the barrier for entry for the Olympics.

[967] You know that's what the charter says, but those people in the IOC, those, these are the worst people ever.

[968] Yeah.

[969] They're very bad.

[970] Well, they're not bad.

[971] They just lost touch of the dream they once had when they joined the IOC.

[972] Well, I would argue, I would argue all the way back that these are rich fat cats who, like, I get so mad about the NCAA, which finally, now got rid of this bullshit term amateurism.

[973] It's like, well, there's some holy grail where you can't make money to be an amateur athlete, but the people who own the IOC or the people who own the institutions, college institutions are making boatloads of money off of you.

[974] That's crap.

[975] So you competed, like you said, at the 2008 Olympics.

[976] Did you believe you can win gold?

[977] Yeah, absolutely.

[978] So your mental game was on point.

[979] Yeah, I was ready.

[980] So what went wrong?

[981] That wasn't good enough.

[982] That was what I said.

[983] Yeah.

[984] Yeah, I mean, so at that point in time, it was my first year of international competition.

[985] So when I came out in 2007, it was my first time making 74 kilograms, which is pretty small for me. I had some failures, but then quickly I turned that around, and I was having success in America.

[986] I was beating everyone.

[987] I don't want to say easy, but, yeah, I was doing really well.

[988] I went international one time and there was one match I got cheated on the Russians, they're cheaters I think she was Ukraine, not Russia I lost one real match where I actually lost and it was to Dennis Sargouche who would go on to win three world titles but he was behind the T of that year and it was competitive you know so I knew okay I'm like I'm going with the best guys in the world I beat a bunch of other guys who were good and had passed decent results so I knew I was like right there unfortunately I ran this guy Ivan Fondora and in I had someone who's got scouting reports for him actually my high school coach who now coaches for our academy John Messamerich and Fondor was the worst stylistic matchup I got him um and I lost him second round so I just I wasn't good enough I you know I had I decided to keep wrestling I probably would have gotten better but at that point in time this wasn't in the cards so in your division was like you said Sateev and vice Sotiv um That guy is special.

[989] He's very special.

[990] So that would be my other guy that you asked earlier who I enjoyed watching.

[991] And that was a guy, again, it was kind of after the fact because it was hard to access footage.

[992] But he was a lot of fun to watch.

[993] What do you think made him great?

[994] A lot of people talked about him as potentially one of the greatest ever.

[995] Absolutely.

[996] So he won six and three, six worlds, nine, six worlds three Olympics, nine total, which is only one or two people above that.

[997] Um, so again, it was, it was hard to watch any live footage of him, but from what I've seen, his, his, his feel is different.

[998] He was just ahead of his time and the feel and the touch he had for certain moves and different things, because obviously, physically he's kind of unimposing.

[999] He's, um, you know, taller in skinnier, which is, you know, it can work in wrestling, but it is by less represented.

[1000] Um, yeah, he was special.

[1001] So good.

[1002] Do you, uh, take any inspiration from, let's talk about death.

[1003] Dagestan in general.

[1004] What do you think makes those wrestlers great?

[1005] Yeah, it's fascinating.

[1006] Have you read the book, The Talent Code?

[1007] Yeah, it's great.

[1008] And that kind of talks about these talent hotspots all around the world.

[1009] So now, obviously, with our wrestling academies, we try to take some lessons from that and apply it.

[1010] I got to assume they didn't cover Dagestan in that book specifically, but I got to assume a lot of the same principles that are in that book apply to Dagestan and wrestling, right?

[1011] They did South Korea and women.

[1012] Golf, they did Curacao and Baseball, right?

[1013] They picked a lot of these other places that were really elite.

[1014] I think it's maybe Moscow and women's tennis also.

[1015] So I think all these things that make any group great organization is probably the same things that's happening there.

[1016] Well, the hardship, I mean, is there something specific about wrestling that can create so many great champions?

[1017] From that area, so obviously they all love, like it's a big deal, that wrestling.

[1018] It's specifically is a big deal there.

[1019] You know, they do Samba also, obviously.

[1020] So that's part of it is a lot of the kids are doing it.

[1021] They obviously are rough tumble, tough life.

[1022] Getting a lot of fights.

[1023] And then I think that also that a lot of them, it is a way out, right?

[1024] They're the elite level athletes in that part of the world from my understanding are really well compensated compared to what the average person makes and they're treated really well.

[1025] So people see it as a way out.

[1026] Whereas like, and then honestly, if America's getting better, but in 2008, the reason I went to do MMA was because I didn't want to be poor with my whole life.

[1027] You know what I'm saying?

[1028] It sucks.

[1029] It's like, well, I don't want to make $20 ,000 for the next 48 years.

[1030] So I'm going to go do something else.

[1031] If I could have made, even I need to be rich, right?

[1032] If I could have made $100 ,000 or $70 ,000 wrestling, I probably would have kept wrestling.

[1033] So I think it's those factors.

[1034] And obviously now they have a really like a bunch of really good people in one area.

[1035] So there's probably, and it's been going on for a long time.

[1036] So there's probably been a bunch of like adults and coaches that are coming back.

[1037] helping that progress so yeah a lot of those things that happen so i'm definitely gonna travel there to talk to him because i can speak russian that makes it makes it makes it very um makes me uniquely qualified to uh my brother can't my brother can't yeah okay like a little bit of russian your brother can yeah okay like a little bit like uh squares and no no no no like he would oh man don't don't me over so i think he would be able to have a conversation with you i think Okay.

[1038] Probably not like you.

[1039] What's the reason you know is Russian?

[1040] I don't know why he got obsessed with languages, and so his college degree is actually, what do they call, interdiscs, where you have three minors.

[1041] So he had a minor in Russian, a minor in Spanish and maybe Japanese.

[1042] I'm messing up.

[1043] It's definitely Russian and Spanish are for sure.

[1044] I don't know what the third one is.

[1045] No, but, yeah, Afghanistan, it's really fascinating.

[1046] But the emphasis on technique, the lighter drill, like they don't really go super hard yeah and i only spent a couple so i was there i was in vladikovka's in 2008 that was where the world cup was we had to train there for like two days afterwards so um i didn't get to dig deep did to dig deep into what was going on or anything but yeah i mean i think sparring has sparring is very beneficial for wrestling um not like sparring m ms we fight right sparring in wrestling is so I always just describe it to be really simple if we're drilling it's relatively zero percent resistance if we're going as hard as we can that's 100 percent there's all this gray area in the middle that's sparring right and so you know if you have a good relationship like you know especially calling me and my brother we can just go and we know where each other's at we don't have to talk about it right but like in my wrestling call I'll say okay hey I want you guys to go 50 % in this position or I want the high crotch guy I want him to shoot and this is for him so I want him to go 70 and the defensive guy I want you to go 40 so you're not you're not supposed to be trying to win here you're going to go a little later I want you give it give him some looks you know um so I think it has really taken hold in America I think it's really beneficial for success and I think that's I mean America is doing better than we've ever done the store well that's 70 and 40 that's like an art form to find that right place because uh like what the the really good people I've trained with they go much closer to 100 percent speed wise or like but would that like forcing things the way you would when you're going.

[1047] It's some weird combination of things that like if you truly earn a technique then you're given that technique.

[1048] Yeah, yeah.

[1049] But like if you don't, you don't.

[1050] And then it becomes much less injury prone.

[1051] It becomes somehow more fun, more dynamic.

[1052] You don't get stuck in positions.

[1053] It's just a lot of movement.

[1054] Yeah, the one thing, so you and John talked about, you know, like different ways to learn and get better.

[1055] And so I think John, obviously, innovated within the sport of Jiu -Jitsu.

[1056] And so for us, and maybe there's just a differentiator for us.

[1057] I think about it.

[1058] So sorry to interrupt.

[1059] You have this academy and you send me this plan, they have a really well thought through plan for how to develop a good wrestler.

[1060] So I think it's, for me, there's four categories, right?

[1061] There's the teaching, which is like, you don't know shit.

[1062] You're coming in and I'm showing you the move, and you're literally going out there, and you're trying to me that's not even drilling that's like teaching like you're trying to learn something so obviously in someone's earlier periods they're spending a lot of time in that phase because they literally don't even know how to move their bodies the right way once you learn the skill then there's the drilling because you need to you absolutely have to get those reps to become really proficient in that movement and then the sparring and then the live right and so like i think obviously by the time you get to the kind of, I don't say, end point, right, but further on, the time you spend teaching is so, I don't want to say, I'm sorry, in the learning teaching phase is not insignificant, but it's so much smaller because to someone who's really good who have coach for 10 years, I don't have to give this big, long, drawn on explanation.

[1063] I just have to say, hey, move your hand a little differently, right?

[1064] Or just do this, right?

[1065] We don't have to spend any time there.

[1066] So I think that's like something that consumes for the younger kids, say, five through 12 or 13, we're consuming a massive amount of time there on that teaching learning phase and then as we get older that time wanes a lot but that makes total sense right yeah it's funny because when you look at like jiu jitsu schools they spend a lot of time in the teaching learning and then the live it feels like there's not enough drilling I like how you draw a distinction there because it feels it feels like you're always starting from scratch like people have like very crappy short -term memory like they're not like the way teaching is done is you show a technique from scratch and it seems disjoint it is for sure especially if you have a class that's been with you for a while yeah you don't have to start from scratch you can say hey let's focus on this one little thing here yeah or let's after we do this let's do that you know and you kind of start putting it all together and then with jujitsu the thing that I really struggle with was was a couple things it was and this is not speaking for all the just gym, my personal experience through the sport.

[1067] And I actually found my, so when I unretired, I found someone really great that I loved.

[1068] And I really wish, it was Mark Lehman.

[1069] I don't know if you know him at all.

[1070] I wish I would have found him earlier because he was just tremendous.

[1071] But number one, there's no drilling.

[1072] So it's like in wrestling, I can boil down to, I can probably name you the best six moves, right?

[1073] So we need, as younger people, single leg, right?

[1074] Single leg's going to be the most proficient takedown.

[1075] It always has been, I don't know, probably always will be unless they figure out something different.

[1076] The robot.

[1077] The robot figures out different.

[1078] We're going to shoot a lot of single legs.

[1079] Why?

[1080] Because everyone's going to do that, right?

[1081] We're going to shoot a lot of single legs.

[1082] So just like say an arm bar or some type of sweep, right?

[1083] Why can't we go get 50 reps there?

[1084] Hey, I mean, by the time I've been in your jitza school for two years, I better know a fucking arm bar.

[1085] I better know what.

[1086] So don't spend 10 minutes teaching me. Just tell me to go hit 50 reps. And then if why don't I'm hitting my reps, if there's some.

[1087] something I'm doing wrong, then just say, hey, Ben, move you a little bit that way, or raise your hips up a little more, right?

[1088] Like, correct, as you're drilling, so you're getting all these reps at it, so you're becoming more proficient.

[1089] And then the other thing I really struggled with was, to your point, during live, so many times it's just this five minute, go, go, go.

[1090] And that's not the most efficient way to learn, because when you have two people, especially when they're focused on winning, and you say, go, they're going to go to whatever they do best.

[1091] Well, if I'm trying to make you good at something, I don't want you doing what you do best all the time.

[1092] I need you doing some other things, right?

[1093] If you have a great single leg, but you can't shoot to the other side of their body, we need to work on that, right?

[1094] You need to start shooting the other side.

[1095] There's some sense that you, it's not like you should be told what to work on, but you should be told to work on the thing that you want to work on, meaning, because I don't know, maybe you can comment on this, but, you know, everybody develops a different game as you get better and better.

[1096] There's a set of things you need to be working on.

[1097] So I actually have like when I especially when I'm like training very seriously I'll have a specific technique that I have in mind and I have a sheet of paper on the side where I literally my head keep count off how many times I put myself in that position and pulled off the technique and that's all I care about yeah and like training so I'll just whatever it is if it's a guillotine it's a guillotine arm drag arm drag but I want to make sure I don't I love numbers so I'll say like I'll make sure I get 50 arm drags and I'm not getting off the mat until I do and that you know if it takes drilling or live contest uh so in this in the thing I'm described me right now is the live contest okay got but drilling obviously drilling so I feel I can't find a drilling part like it's so hard to find drilling partners even so boring it's it's annoying to me that this is boring and there's nothing more annoying to me than the look of boredom on another the person's face when we're drilling yeah it's like do you really think drilling's that beneficial to you because you said it's a job yes yes yes you think so I'm an idiot but yes why why am I am I an idiot or why it's really beneficial well let's go with who's your pleases why is it so beneficial um I think for me it's there's a meditative aspect to it where the more you drill the more you start noticing the details really let me Let me push back a little bit here.

[1098] I'm not going to push back all the way because every time if I was wrestling, I won't have crutching like whatever, right?

[1099] But even so say like at a high level when I'm really wrestling 10 years ago, even during that drill portion, if we talk about the resistance of our opponent from 0 to 100, it's very likely that my partner at that point, because people I'm really comfortable with, they're probably at least going 20 or 30, right?

[1100] They're probably giving me a certain look with the sprawl or, you know, I got to get through their hands.

[1101] If I don't set it up right, they might put their arm down, right?

[1102] So it's like we are drilling because we're wrestling at a really low resistance level, but there's a little bit of sparring.

[1103] Oh, yeah, yeah, the 20%, you know?

[1104] The 20, yeah.

[1105] Yeah, so that's not really drilling.

[1106] I think it's drilling.

[1107] I think literally you're shooting and I'm just, boom, I'm like you show me your dummy, boom, boom, boom, boom, type of thing, you know?

[1108] No, it's very hard to be a dummy that doesn't do 20%.

[1109] You're going to do 20%, yeah.

[1110] So yes, that's 20%, but that's like sparring a little bit then.

[1111] no but they're not really resisting they're just giving you the right frame they're giving you the right movement and they're being an intelligent dummy essentially I mean but also like the really important component of this is you pick the techniques for which is beneficial if the technique is has dynamic elements to you don't want to be doing that with I'm saying like there's certain moves and I like those moves and I select the game base in those moves So are you drilling to get better?

[1112] Are you drilling just to work out?

[1113] No, to get better.

[1114] That's what I'm trying to tell you.

[1115] I believe you can become like exceptionally good very fast by drilling.

[1116] But how?

[1117] First of all, let me ask you an empirical question.

[1118] Have you actually drilled 10 ,000 times?

[1119] Absolutely millions.

[1120] You haven't drilled millions.

[1121] Hundreds of thousands likely.

[1122] I think you're just saying numbers.

[1123] I don't think you know what a hundred thousand.

[1124] It's way more than 10 ,000.

[1125] I don't think you know what 100 ,000 feels like.

[1126] There was a 10 -year period where I wrestled every single day.

[1127] That's 3 ,000 days.

[1128] So you're telling me 10 ,000, that's only three of them a day.

[1129] I do way more than that.

[1130] Three of them?

[1131] I probably did 30 of them a day.

[1132] That's 100 ,000.

[1133] Yeah.

[1134] Hundreds of thousands.

[1135] I doubt you get 30 a day for particular.

[1136] I did.

[1137] For sure, 100%.

[1138] There's no doubt.

[1139] All right.

[1140] Because some days I might do 100, right?

[1141] So 30 is not very many.

[1142] Especially if we count all reps, if we're counting drilling and lots.

[1143] So, like, our college coach would make us just drill a lot, and I always hated it.

[1144] So I would rebel and just kind of give a little spar.

[1145] You, you shoot a high crotch.

[1146] We'll start.

[1147] Coach, I want to drill high crotch.

[1148] Okay, we'll start.

[1149] You shoot the high crotch.

[1150] That's great.

[1151] Then I'm going to sit the corner.

[1152] I'm going to give you my hip.

[1153] Or I'm going to, you know, I'm going to try something.

[1154] So then you have to react.

[1155] And I would argue that all skill level past, like, the beginner stuff is, is some necessity of that, right?

[1156] I'm going to do, then what are you going to do?

[1157] It's back and forth.

[1158] I should a single leg, what are you going to do?

[1159] high crotch, when you do, and you have to start unconsciously programming these things in your head because if you're conscious to think about it, it's going to be too slow to actually hit it at math, right?

[1160] But the drilling is the unconscious programming.

[1161] But the simple movement, the first simple movement, the first simple movement, that single leg or the high crotch or arm drag, whatever.

[1162] Like, I feel like the amount you're going to get better at it is so minuscule compared to the amount you're going to gain at doing other things around it.

[1163] You see?

[1164] No, but that's the key word.

[1165] You feel.

[1166] okay that's your opinion if we did a if we did a study on it that i would be proven correct no perhaps so first of all your brain as an exceptionally creative combat athlete it's clear that you don't like the boredom of drilling like it's obvious that you that you have like you're such a creative energy that you're just not going to be somebody who's going to enjoy that so enjoyment is probably having an active mind is really important so the the the the question is do you have the kind of makeup that has an active mind during a drilling on a dummy and I have that mind like that I can really think okay so if you're uh let's pick a technique what technique do you want drill a lot I would doing jih Tzu or wrestling whatever you want um it's hard to describe with words but certain guard passes uh let me let me think just the guard pass okay so you have a guard pass and you get it to be as a nine and a half out of ten right just from a technical standpoint.

[1167] Don't you think you need some resistance to feel?

[1168] Because essentially all benefit after that is going to be, what are they going to try to do to me?

[1169] And if they ship that way, do I need to sink here or move there?

[1170] So it's like, I actually think we're agreeing, but maybe terminology wise.

[1171] Well, the split is the important thing, like how much of each.

[1172] So I think it is spark.

[1173] I think it's a very light touch spar is what you're talking about, which is, in my opinion, really isn't drilling.

[1174] And it's because drilling past the basic proficiency, I don't think brings much value.

[1175] But that's what I'm trying to tell you is I think it does.

[1176] I think doing that same movement, I think you begin to learn more over time.

[1177] Like you're saying once you get the basic proficiency, then there's diminishing returns.

[1178] I don't think so.

[1179] I don't think so.

[1180] I think everything has diminishing returns when you're learning a technique.

[1181] But with something as complex as wrestling.

[1182] or grappling, if you can have way more gains over here, why focus on going from a 9 .7 to a 9 .8?

[1183] If this other area, if you're spending so much time here that there's other areas left unexplored and you can make gigantic gains over there.

[1184] No, but you're going to lose.

[1185] I think a lot depends on your style.

[1186] I think a lot is determined by how good you are at one thing.

[1187] So if you want to become a master of a particular thing and then make your whole game where it's all pulled into that system, then, I don't know.

[1188] I think one is to a small number.

[1189] Yeah, small.

[1190] I feel like you can't be easily this, like, I, yeah, you want, you want to, you want to create funnels, funnels, right, where everything goes into a few positions, and then it's all feel.

[1191] And then it's all feel.

[1192] You can get, like, drilling on a dummy, 80 % of the time and 20 % of the time live rolling with people worse than you, like a little bit worse than you or a lot worse than you.

[1193] So I definitely think, so my buildup would be teach, so we're talking a complex technique, right?

[1194] So by the time we're talking about, we'll say a late high school kid who's pretty proficient, he's probably done the drilling part.

[1195] So then now it's like, okay, if I want to get something new to you, I'll probably tell you, you'll probably be able to do the basic premise within five to ten minutes if they're good, right?

[1196] do this, okay, they do it.

[1197] Then it's like, okay, so now here, from here, what are we going to do?

[1198] We want to go light sparring, so I know you have success because I need you to complete the task in order to give it better at it.

[1199] That's something a lot of people in wrestling mess up is they just want to go as a toughest person.

[1200] But if you go to the toughest person, you're not going to actually execute or any skills.

[1201] You're going to get a workout, and I need you execute because I need to get good at this in order to get good at it.

[1202] You have to get all the way through the technique.

[1203] Why do you need them to complete just so they gain confidence in the technique or they go through all the way through?

[1204] Like if I said, learn a high crotch when you're drilling with stop halfway every time, but you're not actually going to be able to do it because you're going to stop, you're not able to feel.

[1205] So, you know, try it on someone spar lightly, get it, do it on someone who's not as good as you get it, then kind of work your way up the ladder so you can get it on someone your own skillable or maybe better than you, right, in a live competition.

[1206] So it's like, I don't know, I feel like that basic drilling, like, so a kid like Kegan, who I probably a few times, like, I feel like if there's something new, I could literally tell I'm like, this is what I want you to do, and he's such a great feel like he could go drill it proficiently within probably a minute or two.

[1207] But then to hit it on someone high level, that's going to take quite a while longer.

[1208] And that's a mix of drilling and sparring on people a little bit worse than you.

[1209] Yeah, and then equal and the better.

[1210] Yeah, because there's just, with grappling, right, there's such like a feel component to the pressure, the movement, all these things.

[1211] And there's still, like I said, there's so many things you can throw at someone out of one position, not just moves, but moves at different levels of force or whatever.

[1212] Are you and these kids developing like a big picture strategy of like what are the main setups and takedowns and just like a whole system?

[1213] So we, you know, I kind of send you our technique book, right?

[1214] And how we kind of go at, approach it.

[1215] So I think in wrestling, you're going to need, you're going to need a handful of things just off the word go right you're going to so i think on our feet i need to build take the side of the body i need to build take that side of the body i need to be able to bring you underneath me i need to be able to go around you right now we can accomplish those different ways but we should have all of those weapons if we're going to be really good some way right um so if i neglect one of those so if i neglect the ability to say pull you down right front headlock you um now if i have a good shot and you're smart you're just going to lower your stance so my shot is not going to be as successful and i have the inability to pull you down right so i kind of need all of those so i can as they get better i can point those things out um on bottom my folks out bottom there's certain things like you have to be good at leg right defense right you have to i mean at high level or you're just good you're going to when you get it in you're just getting stuck there not going to be able to escape um but besides that yeah there's a there's a multitude things that you can choose from and i'm going to depending on your body style uh and what you're good and bad at i'm going to probably develop something a little different i might give you hey you do the quad pod you'd be better than knee slide whatever um yeah top kind of same thing i have to ask you ball kabib so i remember a while ago rogan said that uh that's a perfect fight uh yeah for kibb you are so let me ask two questions the first do you think you can beat him in an mma match when you're at your peak yeah i i don't like uh yeah i mean it's one those people who people like will get really mad at me if i say yes Yes, but yeah, I mean, how would you do it?

[1216] How would you solve that puzzle?

[1217] Yeah.

[1218] I mean, we would grapple, and I think I would be better than him.

[1219] But, you know, as I feel weird saying, because people, like, yeah, right, you're full shit, you know.

[1220] And but that's no one out grappled them, right?

[1221] I mean, nobody did.

[1222] And maybe I'm wrong in this, but I, if we'll get the best possible candidates, I'm definitely one of them.

[1223] And then obviously, I have a small size advantage, too.

[1224] So in a wrestling match, so we can just reduce that MMA.

[1225] match to a wrestling match, what do you think is the right strategy on him?

[1226] Do you understand his style, his wrestling style, the pressure he applies?

[1227] Do you understand how the hell he makes that happen?

[1228] Yeah, I mean, he never, unfortunately, fought any real, who I would say really, really high -level wrestlers.

[1229] I was actually really disappointed how bad Justin Gage's wrestling was, because Justin Gage had some solid success, but his wrestling was really bad in that fight.

[1230] Gage had success in C -WA?

[1231] Yeah, I think he was seventh play.

[1232] maybe or so somewhere he was definitely all -American uh it was lower though um so yeah i would i would like to see how he dealt with someone who was like a who i think oh man this guy's a really high -level wrestler because you know we saw and this is early in his career but you know glace and tebow did give him some issues earlier in his career um so i would like to see him in that situation and see how he does i would love it like you know like i'd say i just love wrestling and grappling like yeah i'd love this someone said hey uh ben you know could be wants to roll with you okay I'm there tomorrow it sounds like a blast let's go it's probably competitive as hell yeah you're still competitive I know when to be and when not to be like you know save from going to the high school kids are not going to be competitive because then I'm just being a dick how would you take him down what what we're talking about real wrestling like wrestling wrestling wrestling wrestling I would probably try to text single legs and stuff single legs yeah haven't okay no no I mean I've no honestly I don't have the slightest clue.

[1233] I'd feel him out.

[1234] But single leg's my best take on.

[1235] People talk about his wrestling being really good.

[1236] People that trained with him.

[1237] So, okay, so I grilled someone.

[1238] I will not say who on the Ed Ruth thing, because Ed Ruth is very elite at folks -style wrestling.

[1239] He never became that great at fighting, unfortunately.

[1240] Wait, Ed Ruth wrestled Khabib?

[1241] They were on the same team for a while, yeah.

[1242] Okay.

[1243] And there was rumors that Kibib beat him up.

[1244] And I said, I sure can't believe that.

[1245] And I've heard that that was, If they were just straight wrestling, Ed would get slightly the better of it.

[1246] Well, Ed was just like one of the greats.

[1247] He's great.

[1248] He's really good.

[1249] Yeah.

[1250] So that was what I heard.

[1251] But in an MMA setting, because of all the tools that Khabib would get him.

[1252] I don't know.

[1253] But I agree.

[1254] I agree with Rogan on this one.

[1255] That would have been good to see.

[1256] Yeah, I'm fun.

[1257] So, yeah, if Kibb wants to work out, I'd love it.

[1258] I love wrestling and grappling.

[1259] I don't do much of Jitsu because I don't have time for it anymore.

[1260] I'm at the wrestling kids.

[1261] like every single day.

[1262] But I love jih Tzu, well, I did it.

[1263] And, you know, if I didn't have wrestling academy that probably would still be doing Jiu -tzu.

[1264] Yeah, you did well in Jiu -Jitsu as well.

[1265] But let me ask you a ridiculous question.

[1266] Who's the greatest of all -time, freestyle or folk style?

[1267] Oh, wrestling.

[1268] Wrestling.

[1269] Hmm.

[1270] Well, I will say my knowledge passed like the year 2000 is really not that great.

[1271] In which direction?

[1272] Sorry, after 2000.

[1273] No, no, before.

[1274] Because you can't find any film or anything.

[1275] you know and so you hear of all so you need evidence you need direct evidence I want to be able to watch them and see them and feel the times and feel their opponents and you know all those things to really like I hate giving bad answers you know so I would there's just not enough footage of any of those people you know we took we go back to someone like Alexander Medved like you can't find footage you can't find anything on him you know it's like who is you wrestling I'm not sure so um post 2000 I think and obviously just freestyle so um americans russian chtiaf has the probably the best argument post two thousand i think sad julyev um if he had the russian tank beat that guy is yeah so who's who's better snider or sud julya so said julya just wanted the olympics i understand this i understand how that works but there's pretty close right not really not not that match but in general the matchup so well so kyle won the first one in 17 said julya pinned him the following year but then kyle lost and took bronze in 19 and then just lost i don't want to say fairly decisively but it was it was six to three and it was a late takedown he kind of gave it up and maybe if it was really competitive maybe it wouldn't have um they're going to wrestle again in like two weeks here so that you know yeah you i mean you have to say sedge alive at this point there's nothing else to say unless kyle proves us otherwise yeah not enough people talk about sedge alive okay well you think that guy should go to M .M .A. I think Kyle should go to M .M .A. Some of these guys.

[1276] Yeah, they're making enough money in wrestling where they don't really feel the need to.

[1277] It's terrifying, though.

[1278] It's a heavyweight.

[1279] It's like, it could be, but heavy weight.

[1280] Well, I don't know if you remember, do you remember Belal Mockoff?

[1281] So, Belal Mockoff actually was the Russian representative in both styles of 2016, Greclan freestyle.

[1282] And he was, to my knowledge, the only person the UFC's ever signed that was zero in modern era, signed that was zero and zero.

[1283] And they, and he was, and they, And he actually never ended up fighting.

[1284] But weird, right?

[1285] So, yeah.

[1286] Motivation.

[1287] I don't know what the story is.

[1288] Sometimes out of Russia, I mean, maybe you have better sources than I do.

[1289] Sometimes it feels like dudes just disappear.

[1290] Like they're a world champ or a little big champ and then all of a sudden, you're like, wait.

[1291] Yeah.

[1292] Where do you go?

[1293] You talk shit about Russia earlier in the conversation.

[1294] Oh, what did I say?

[1295] I forgot, but I think.

[1296] Steroids.

[1297] I think somebody's going to show up to your door.

[1298] I'm worried.

[1299] I honestly, I've said enough bad things where I would be kind of looking over my shoulder if I wanted to say that's I for one loved the Russians what about Icarus how does that make you feel what about it it's fake news oh really I'm just kidding it's propaganda maybe it is I don't know I don't know if it is anymore yeah you know it's troublesome man I hate cheating in all of its forms any other like recaps from the Olympics of 2020 Tokyo that stood out to you Gable Stevens and like anything like that yeah no I think America's coming to the point where we're going to compete with Russia every single year in wrestling, which obviously, you know, long, long time ago, many, many years we did, you know, we were great.

[1300] And then kind of after that Soviet Union period, I think there was a lot of poverty in that area and that kind of led the wrestling team going down a little bit.

[1301] And then obviously a lot of those regions, the way they found oil and gas in the Caspian Sea, I believe.

[1302] And they've been really kind of on the upswing for the last 20 years.

[1303] And now America really since 2012 has been on the upswing and wrestling, and we're kind of really competing with them, and they're not sending a couple of their best guys to, so for those who don't know, the Olympics, we've got moved back to the year.

[1304] So they are hosting the World 2021 World Championships, despite the fact that we just had the Olympics two months ago.

[1305] So it's happening next week in Oslo, Norway.

[1306] So, like, Russia's not sending their number one at 57 and number one 65.

[1307] So it's like, America's probably going to win, I think.

[1308] I don't want to guarantee anything, but there's a really good chance.

[1309] If Dave Taylor, all those guys competing?

[1310] America gave any of the Olympians that meddled the opportunity to not even have to wrestle off.

[1311] They just got to keep the spot since there's two months later if they meddled.

[1312] So the only one who's not as Gable.

[1313] Gable is moving on.

[1314] We have a pretty good guy behind him named Nick Westowsky.

[1315] He was a world medalist.

[1316] But then he's a Burles filled in the 79 spot.

[1317] Jane Cox filled in the 92 spot, who's a world champion also.

[1318] So we have a...

[1319] It's a hell of a team.

[1320] Pretty good squad, yeah.

[1321] Pretty good squad.

[1322] Pretty happy.

[1323] So given your run in Bellator and one championship, that was like one of the most dominant runs in MMA, what would you say was like key to your dominance in that long undefeated streak?

[1324] Huh.

[1325] Consistency would be one.

[1326] The fact that I lived and trained the same way, no matter where my life was, whereas a lot of fighters, once they start making money for the first time, they have all these obligations and they travel, and they really enjoy making money and that's kind of why some of them fall off.

[1327] So you had like the same process like the same camp and my house.

[1328] I didn't vacation everything just no you know and so that was a big part of it.

[1329] Obviously the style thing is like no one could, there was only a few people who could stop my style and I think I continue to get better as a mixed martial artist and I wasn't as innovative in mixed martial artists.

[1330] martial arts but there was a handful of things that I innovated you're specifically in the top position where I spent a lot of time where it was just like there was just once I got on top of you it was like in a spider web and there was just kind of no way out you know you never felt the certain things I was doing and so people just they gave up eventually how's the level of wrestling in m .m .a would you say so I saw somewhere like champions the most popular martial art for current UFC champions are all wrestling.

[1331] So we just lost a bunch of the belts.

[1332] Wrestling as a sport, right?

[1333] But yeah, at one point we had, I think it was eight of nine maybe or something to that effect.

[1334] And I think it's not just wrestling, not just the actual martial art of wrestling that contributes to our success in mixed martial arts, but other things like the way we're systemized.

[1335] So most kids of each have less says have went through the high school program and the college program and they know how to show up on time and they know how to work hard so when they go to ATT or AKA or wherever they know how to show up on time and they know how to work hard and that's going to get you a really long way just those two things right not even the techniques it's just the discipline those things then I think you throw on top of the fact that most of us have competed 1 ,500 to 2 ,000 times probably by the time we get to 20 something like that's a huge advantage too most of these other people from other disciplines maybe have competed 100 if that right so we have this competitive process down really really really really well um plus the way cut the way cut there's all these things right the factor into it um i think the fact that we're really open -minded like i think if you would i don't pick on jujitsu again but like how many jiu jitsu guys have became highly proficient in wrestling versus how many wrestling guys have became highly proficient in jiu jitsu i think that number swings one way and not that much the other way you know so we're open to adapting and learning and and for some reason like jiu -jitsu people how many of them have got high -level wrestling or even mediocre level wrestling the number's really small like they refuse to it's really frustrating like why won't they do this is obviously part of it you know if like i don't pick on specific guys but there's certain guys in the history of m -ma where you're like listen man i mean damien may who who's my last fight is a great example of somebody actually did get proficient wrestling right but there's some of these jihitsu guys was like, if you just got on top, you would submit him.

[1336] Why can't you learn a freaking take down?

[1337] Like, holy moly.

[1338] Like, just learn how to take someone down.

[1339] Once you get them down, they will not get up, and you win the fight.

[1340] Like, it's so easy, you know, but they refuse.

[1341] How complicated is that journey?

[1342] So, like, Donna Heard that you mentioned, Craig Jones.

[1343] They're big on wrestling as part of Jitsu now.

[1344] Yeah.

[1345] Like, wrestling, not just on the feet, but wrestling from the bottom coming up and all that kind of stuff.

[1346] So how difficult Does that whole skill set, would you say, for jihitsu person to learn?

[1347] Not that hard.

[1348] If they really put their mind to it, because they already, like, when you grapple, and this is any grappling art, like, there's a certain part of it that you kind of get, and it can, it might not be the exact same thing, but you understand how your body moves and how to feel certain pressures, and you can adapt yourself pretty quickly, you know?

[1349] So I don't think it would be, I think there's just a certain level of stubbornness where they didn't want to, certain people didn't want to do it for whatever reason.

[1350] And I think a lot of times in MMA, it's the, I'm so macho, I can stand and bang thing, you know, where they want to, you know, show how macho they are.

[1351] But yeah, that was a frustrating one that they, there's a lot of wrestlers who became highly proficient in jujitsu and really adapted and it doesn't go the other way.

[1352] And then I guess the other thing there too is they can both steal from each other, right?

[1353] As any, as any martial art can steal from another.

[1354] And like, I feel like jih T jitsu didn't do enough stealing from.

[1355] wrestling like they should have looked at all the wrestling possible and said well why why don't we steal that and that and that you know and like hey let's take that over and maybe we'd make a little tweak because it's different but there's something we can definitely use there so like in wrestling for example you know there's a one -arm kiotene in jih Tzu right okay so there's a move call it well it's got a hundred and it's like the oldest move in wrestling because it's what they did the cows where they go around the chin and they throw them on the back I don't know okay sorry did you just ask me what I call that one yeah Would you take a cow and grab it by the...

[1356] No, but in wrestling, in wrestling.

[1357] I don't know.

[1358] Okay, we call...

[1359] Are you putting it under?

[1360] Yeah, so you can grab their chin and then you go under their arm and then throw them on their back.

[1361] Okay, gotcha, yeah.

[1362] Yeah, so we call that the honey badger, but it's got...

[1363] Honey badger.

[1364] Different names, wherever you go.

[1365] It's got different names.

[1366] So I would always, I would say, like, pre -jit -to, I was average at it.

[1367] Like, I could do it.

[1368] But against good people, you'd never get it for...

[1369] Oh, I'll tell you what example.

[1370] because they would get the back of their head up and they were too strong where you couldn't collapse them by going over their neck because the forces weren't right.

[1371] So then in jihitsu you learned the one -armed guillotine where you grab their chin and this is more of running along the side of their head and then you go here and you choke them, right?

[1372] Much more efficient way to move their head because the fulcrum is way down here and their head can move into that, right?

[1373] So once I learned that in jiu -jitsu, I'm like, wait, I can do this in wrestling.

[1374] So now once I learn how to grab their chin the right way and I do the Honey Badger, no one ever gets out.

[1375] I just had to steal that Jiu -Jitsu, put it in wrestling, and boom, there we go.

[1376] But very few people steal any direction.

[1377] That takes creativity.

[1378] Really?

[1379] And open -mindedness.

[1380] It's so easy because it's already done.

[1381] You just got to steal that.

[1382] I mean, same with Judo.

[1383] If you're a Ghi Jih Tizu person, there's so much stuff in Judo that's ripe for the stealing.

[1384] Because judo is much more emphasizes explosive moves on the transition.

[1385] which is something jihadistice does not do because you mean from the takedown to from the takedown but also just in general just in the transition the concept of transition the um like jihis is very much about like we're in this position then we're in this position then we're in this position yeah the judo is much more in when there's chaos of any kind yeah that's when you need to strike and to learn that I mean that's why people like Travis Seans and judoka when they go to jihita they can dominate but just the people should steal that too stubborn yeah but so is ever wrestlers are stubborn too no way it would never be any stubborn wrestlers well i mean i was surprised it you know all these coaches john smith dan gabo they don't really have interest in mma or jihitsu and so on like but you would think somebody like a john smith would like put on a white belt and roll around yeah i think he's just too focused on you know he's a coached But he's a coach and what he's doing.

[1386] Yeah, I mean, yeah, I think if you take him when he's younger, he would have a lot of fun.

[1387] We actually have a really good wrestler making his MMA debut tomorrow.

[1388] I don't know if you, Bo Nickel, I'm sure you've heard of him.

[1389] It's very high level.

[1390] I think he's going to have a lot of success.

[1391] I mean, some people might say that, like, jihitsu makes you a little comfortable being in your back.

[1392] And for a wrestler that could be, like, really bad.

[1393] I hate that take.

[1394] Yeah, but that's the Dan Gable take.

[1395] It's so stupid.

[1396] It's so stupid.

[1397] God sakes, we know the fucking rules.

[1398] Just, wrestling, you don't go to your back.

[1399] In jih Tzu, you can.

[1400] It's like, whatever.

[1401] Yeah.

[1402] You know, but like, so jih Tjutsu, for example, so I coached, as at Rufus, I coached the wrestling for a long, now three, four, five years.

[1403] So I've been taking a jih Tzu guy and teaching them a wrestling technique where you needed to use your feet.

[1404] To teach you jutsu guys, so easy.

[1405] So simple, because they were to understand the concept, butterfly guard, et cetera, et cetera, et cetera, To take a wrestling.

[1406] wrestler who's never done any of it and teach him how to use his feet oh my guy it's such a beast it's so hard you know because they just that's not a weapon they're thinking about using so it's like we understand the rule it's like freestyle folks are wrestling freestyle for them the mat I can lock my hands you don't see people lock on their hands all the time of focusel just because they did freestyle it's like they get it there's a rule they understand it so the notion that somebody comes from on your back but pinning that's like a it has a special meaning yeah I actually think think so jihitsu you you don't actually want to be right flat flat very often right you i always wondered this because i did a couple of catch wrestling tournaments uh -huh and i did i would put myself in butterfly guard and i wasn't going against good people so which is why i was doing all these things but i wondered if you could create a system of wrestling where you're butterfly guard so i think there's there's a few places where i use it But so specifically the elevator series, which my main seat is up bottom.

[1407] It is not a butterfly guard.

[1408] It's a butterfly guard like grip with your foot.

[1409] So I boom.

[1410] I go here.

[1411] I catch your leg with my foot.

[1412] Boom.

[1413] And I elevate you over, right?

[1414] And then also sometimes like, I think Kagan does this too from watching me, but like a double leg.

[1415] Sometimes if I'm accepting, so freestyle obviously you're going to give a point you in a minute, focus out, accepting that you've already got me. And as I go down, I'm just going to butterfly guard you up, you know, and then I'm going to try to.

[1416] flip my hip back to the mat and get it up in a wizard position like i've used that quite a few times where it is kind of like a bailout mechanism that gives me back to maybe not a great position but obviously much better than being taken down beautiful yeah let me ask you quickly about crypto because you're also you have a you have a show you uh you have a lot of interest of cryptocurrency why are you interested in cryptocurrency is it just a financial investment or is their philosophy that attracts you to it.

[1417] So I, my friend told me about it in 2017.

[1418] I was actually, I went to, I was, I was, my friend met me in Shanghai.

[1419] I fought in one championship.

[1420] And he told me, and the second he told me, I'm like, I'm so in.

[1421] Because I had read Ron Paul and the Fed, I had read, I, you know, kind of had an understanding how the Fed is unfair.

[1422] And so we told him about crypto, this decentralized system that no one has control over.

[1423] It just made sense.

[1424] And so, like, we have the podcast, we have, say, Michael Sayler on it.

[1425] And I love the way he said it's like, who do you trust more with your money?

[1426] Do you trust the politicians or do you trust engineers?

[1427] I think that's an easy choice.

[1428] I don't even think, I don't even think I have to think about that.

[1429] I don't trust politicians, no matter what country they come from China, America, wherever, I don't trust them.

[1430] So what about in 2017, what was it, Bitcoin?

[1431] Are you, what do you find?

[1432] Which ones do you find interesting?

[1433] there's all kinds of ideas so there's the more sort of primal mechanism of proof of work and Bitcoin and then there's smart contracts ideas and there's all kinds of innovations across the different So I can't say I'm in super deep where I understand the technical components of a lot of them I understand what Bitcoin can do for people and so that's probably the one I focus the most on and I actually I think I was talking about I was trying to convince Michael to talk about because he hates it also way dinner last night and i think most of the main problems bitcoin solves people in america are so american -centric they don't understand it so like high levels of inflation that hasn't happened in what's started to happen it hasn't happened in america in a long time right but someone in venezuela was like oh i get that you know or remittance payments right remittance payments to you see it so i saw this in um when i was spent all the time in singapore Singapore is obviously a really wealthy country and so you'd have internet Asian workers or Filipino and they would all go on Sundays, they would go to these places to ship stuff back to their families and through Western Union, Western Union gouges the shit out of these people.

[1434] I mean, they're taking 8, 10, 12 % of whatever they're sending.

[1435] Then it takes five days and the person's going to pick it up, whereas Bitcoin, I can send you Bitcoin person to person, right?

[1436] So like American people don't understand that.

[1437] American people don't really understand the unbanked, right?

[1438] A decent portion of the world is unbanked.

[1439] They don't have access to it.

[1440] And a much, much, much smaller portion of the world doesn't have access to internet.

[1441] So if I can put a mobile wallet on your phone and we can send money person to person.

[1442] So there's a whole bunch of those problems where Americans don't really think about that are really obvious that this solves.

[1443] So I think that's the key one.

[1444] Obviously, the fact that the value goes up is really outstanding also.

[1445] But if you look at it, I got in in 2017.

[1446] So I got to watch it go up.

[1447] I didn't sell shit at the top, really stupid.

[1448] it.

[1449] And then the majority of my time was spent through the bear market.

[1450] And so I had to love it for the principles that it provided, not the fact that I actually lost money in the beginning and now I'm way up.

[1451] But yeah.

[1452] So I, you're just holding.

[1453] Just holding.

[1454] I think at the top of this bull market, I'll probably sell a very small portion.

[1455] Oh, you mean like right now there's a bull market?

[1456] Yeah.

[1457] Most people think, say, in the next 36 months will be at the top of the market.

[1458] So probably when that happens, I'll probably sell a little bit.

[1459] you got a huddle it then you got a hot well yeah so i well i don't here's i i am so my pod one of my podcast co -host he's he's like super rich like uber rich so he has lost touch with the every man yeah so here's my argument to him it's really simple um and listen i'm doing well for myself in life but if say someone buys a bitcoin right one bitcoin at five thousand dollars which it was last year and this bitcoin goes from five thousand dollars to two hundred thousand dollars which is you know right around what a lot of people think the peak is going to be.

[1460] They bought one Bitcoin.

[1461] And they're living in a $200 ,000 house.

[1462] So to take half of that, right, you started with $5 ,000 of the Bitcoin to sell half a Bitcoin for $100 ,000 and pay off your house, your remaining house payment, that's life changing to someone.

[1463] It really is.

[1464] And so you still have a Bitcoin.

[1465] So if Bitcoin goes to a million, you're still going to have half a million.

[1466] And you're going to feel really, really rich with it half a million dollars because you bought it for $2 ,500, you know?

[1467] yeah so yeah so i would encourage anyone who's not uber rich to if you have huge profits take a little bit of them because it could change your life and if you hold it and it goes down you're going to feel the pain of that like so it sometimes if you're more constrained financially it's much more psychologically difficult to ride the ups and downs yeah it is for sure so they have these really fascinating things in bitcoin actually said the guy on one of the main guys on our podcast It's called on -chain metrics.

[1468] So all wallet transactions are visible, you know.

[1469] And so they have all these fun categories.

[1470] So I actually, I think you say you don't like numbers, but.

[1471] I like numbers.

[1472] Oh, you love numbers.

[1473] I love numbers.

[1474] So I love numbers also.

[1475] So they have all these different categories.

[1476] Like you can see how long a wallet has held a Bitcoin, right?

[1477] Or how many bitcoins are in a certain wallet.

[1478] And so what they've seen during this, the downturn, right?

[1479] So April, it kind of peaked and went down is that the whales are still buys.

[1480] the whales of people of a thousand or more are still buying.

[1481] They've said the main group of sellers is the ones who held it from zero to three months.

[1482] So like they don't have money.

[1483] They bought it because they thought it was going up and I was like, oh shit, I got to sell it.

[1484] Whereas anyone's head out for a long time is generally still holding money.

[1485] That's interesting.

[1486] That's a good indicator for the whole space.

[1487] Yeah.

[1488] Well, let me ask you for some advice.

[1489] You've been through one heck of a career, one heck of a life.

[1490] What advice would you give to a young person today?

[1491] Well, Wrestling, I think wrestling is really a microcosm of what your life's going to be.

[1492] And that's why one of the things I stress the kids is like, if we can go through this now and you figure, I have a couple kids who are struggling with certain things around.

[1493] If you can figure out this now and wrestling, it's going to be a lot better to figure out now and get over this mental hump than when you're 32 and you have two kids and, right, and your job's not going well.

[1494] It's going to be a lot worse.

[1495] It could be a lot more painful then.

[1496] Let's, let's fucking figure it out now.

[1497] So a lot of these things, a lot of these lessons we can learn from wrestling, whether it's persistence or perseverance or work ethic or, you know, I said wrestlers show up on time and they work hard, right?

[1498] These things, if we can learn these things at an early age, those are generally, those characteristics will generally carry on throughout our life.

[1499] And those are things that are going to make us really successful.

[1500] So, you know, I would say find a great coach, someone who's going to spend a lot of time and put a lot of time into you and make sure they have a lot of wisdom and steal all the wisdom that you can from them.

[1501] And then if you can be successful at one thing, generally whatever that recipe was that took you to be successful with that apply it to everything else right apply it to the rest of your life apply it to getting a wife that you enjoy apply it to living in a place you want to live doing a job you want to do right there's so many possibilities and you just have to be bold enough to go take those chances it's interesting because like early on in life is when you have much more time like people don't realize this time to learn the lessons like somehow later in life you get busier responsibilities and all that kind of stuff.

[1502] Like high school is a magical time in college.

[1503] There's so much time to learn.

[1504] Well, you didn't even have kids yet.

[1505] Yeah, I don't have kids.

[1506] It still fills up.

[1507] Well, no, I on purpose.

[1508] And I did something that many people don't seem to be able to do.

[1509] I walked away from a lot of responsibilities just by saying goodbye.

[1510] Oh, okay.

[1511] But, you know, meetings.

[1512] Like, everybody around me at MIT was like meetings filled.

[1513] the day and they have more projects and you do a great job and you become successful and then the more meetings fill the day and more responsibilities as opposed to like wait a minute do i want to be involved in all these things uh and instead do i want to find one or two things to really focus on and that's what i choose but like that it becomes harder and harder and harder as to get older.

[1514] No, well, I mean, I'm sure, and also the more success you have, you become sought after other places, too.

[1515] I'm sure that's happening with you.

[1516] And it's hard to keep saying, no, no, no. It is saying no's hard.

[1517] Yeah.

[1518] You're known for roasting people with a single boom roasted line.

[1519] So any ideas, maybe you want to mention malice, but any ideas come to mind when you look at me?

[1520] Man, I did, you know what?

[1521] If I was going to boom, roast someone, I would want to.

[1522] to kind of like research their career and dissect them and figure out their biggest negative.

[1523] Get to the core.

[1524] And I didn't have that notion with you.

[1525] I figured, I got a general sense of, okay, he's really successfully super sharp.

[1526] He's really interested in some really interesting things.

[1527] I bet we'll have a great conversation, but I had no intention to roast you.

[1528] Yeah, there you go.

[1529] What about malice?

[1530] You had dinner with him last night.

[1531] Hmm, for him.

[1532] Oh, man. How'd you get to know him, by the way?

[1533] Twitter.

[1534] Just Twitter.

[1535] Where's the most magical place in the world, right?

[1536] I always tell me it's the greatest source of information if you know how to use it.

[1537] He's insane on Twitter, actually.

[1538] So I had to unfollow him on Twitter because he...

[1539] It was too intense.

[1540] It was too much.

[1541] No, it's too much.

[1542] It fills up.

[1543] Like, I want to be able to consume the content.

[1544] So if I want to see something he says, I can go to his page, right?

[1545] But it's just too much for my timeline.

[1546] I want to be able to consume who I follow.

[1547] So I try to not follow a lot of people because I want to be able to consume them.

[1548] And he was too much.

[1549] He fights the trolls, which I don't know why you would ever.

[1550] fight the trolls there's just too many of them well he's the troll himself he's like the big troll fighting the little trolls he's the king troll there's a million of them so even if you kill if you kill a hundred thousand there's still not a thousand left they just keep on he's got to ignore them it's the like the night walker or whatever yeah well I'll take it because you had nothing you couldn't rose gsp out of respect too so I'm just going to take that as a sign of respect what are you to say bad about gsp now I try to roast his hair like why is you trying to grow hair now after all these years He looked good bald.

[1551] Everyone loved him with his head shaved.

[1552] Now it looks kind of strange.

[1553] It's like, why you got hair now?

[1554] Well, it was one of the more surreal moments of my life is, so he was here, and he wore a black suit and tie.

[1555] Oh, really?

[1556] Yeah, we did the podcast with him, just mirror image of me. And then we also did, I haven't released it yet, but just a video together, and I was doing martial art stuff in a suit and tie.

[1557] That was quite, that's like, that's like certain moments in your life or just like, I can't believe I was part of that.

[1558] Yeah, with GSP, so yeah, I don't think I have anything to roast him about.

[1559] I mean, maybe the Matt Sarah thing would be the one that you could get them with, you know?

[1560] But I would be, I would be really fascinated to like really dig deep from a sports psychology standpoint because he always talks about how much fear he had when he was competing.

[1561] And I find that to be interesting because obviously, so it's almost like, to me, it's almost like, was he successful despite that, not because, of that right and because anxiety usually is it really negative performance for the majority of people and what was it about him that the anxiety wasn't super negative you know what I'm saying like yeah it's it's very interesting I wonder that too so I have I wonder that about him but I have a huge amount of anxiety interact and especially with people just about everything yeah I wonder if that's helpful or or not it feels it like it's very helpful I think so I so okay I think in two So I think probably your everyday life, okay, is different than like in a performance or a competition.

[1562] It's, you have to be like super in the moment of what you're doing.

[1563] So anything that's pulling you away, like, oh my gosh, you know, high school kids, right, that coach.

[1564] Oh my gosh, my, that girl's in the stands.

[1565] And if I get beat, then, and they're actively thinking about this other thing when this is going on.

[1566] And I need 100 % of your focus right here.

[1567] He's never, I don't think he has anxiety in the ring.

[1568] the point i think like i have the same thing like if i have a really high performance thing that i have to do uh i don't know a lecture in front of a lot of people yeah that'd be a great example that there's huge amount of anxiety weeks ahead days ahead hours ahead so you have a system to get rid of it then as you perform maybe but it's just the body gets rid of it somehow yeah there's not a system subconscious system yeah it's so you don't you don't actually have anxiety while you are performing.

[1569] So then that problem somehow, that problem has solved itself, right?

[1570] The problem is when the anxiety is actually happening while the wrestling match is happening, that's the real issue.

[1571] Yeah, but it like sneaks in there too.

[1572] That's the difference in MMA in wrestling is there's no breaks in wrestling, right?

[1573] Yes.

[1574] I guess there is, you can look at the crowd a little bit, like you can look, so maybe.

[1575] A lot of bounds, maybe.

[1576] But like there's other things we have to perform well there's more breaks like a lecture you can catch yourself thinking like in this conversation you know yeah like I'll upset a bunch of stuff where I think why the hell did you say that that's dumb right that that's the anxiety because there's a pause and that that that could be I don't know I think it just pushes me to be better but maybe I could be way better if I let go that it's scary to think that GSB if you let go of that but he he didn't even better or did he have a root like you're saying like you don't necessarily feel those so I think certain people that I've coached like they would describe how they would feel literally during the wrestling match right and you're saying like during the speech performance it's mostly gone and that's so that's it would be interesting to see if like he talked a lot about that but if it was all the way somehow gone and it means he would have a mechanism for it so like I had a really bad performance my freshman year of high school at nationals because I had I had the ability to be anxious and one of my coaches talked about like And a lot of A -type personalities are kind of that way, you know, because they're trying to consider all possibilities at the same time.

[1577] And while we're actually performing or competing, it's negative performance, right?

[1578] So he said he would always, leading up to the match within, say, an hour, his thing was talking about fishing.

[1579] He would get someone talking about fishing with him because it would stop him thinking about the match and being uber anxious.

[1580] So I kind of really took that to heart and it really helped me as I would always have someone to talk to and just goof around about whatever.

[1581] So I'm not thinking about this thing.

[1582] And then once I step in, it's time to go.

[1583] So I didn't have this, like, anxious buildup.

[1584] Now it's not for me. I took it away.

[1585] But like me, you know, like you said, you have a way to get it away, obviously.

[1586] Yeah, I guess there's a little tricks you come up with.

[1587] Yeah, you start thinking about it's not fishing.

[1588] Maybe I should try the fishing thing.

[1589] I hate fishing.

[1590] So boring.

[1591] Well, maybe it's good to think about that.

[1592] All right, Ben, this is, like I told you, I'm a big fan.

[1593] I'm a big fan of your wrestling, you're fighting, your personality.

[1594] Thank you for coming down.

[1595] Thank you for talking today.

[1596] It's a huge honor.

[1597] Bam, let's go wrestle.

[1598] Thanks for listening to this conversation with Ben Ascran.

[1599] To support this podcast, please check out our sponsors in the description.

[1600] And now, let me leave you with some words from Muhammad Ali.

[1601] Only a man who knows what it is like to be defeated can reach down to the bottom of his soul and come up with an extra ounce of power it takes to win when the men match is even.

[1602] Thank you for listening and hope to see you next time.