Emmy Rossum

[0] Welcome, welcome, welcome to armchair expert.

[1] I'm Dan Shepard, and I'm joined by Dan Mouse.

[2] I have kind of some news, I guess.

[3] Oh, my gosh.

[4] That just reminded me. This is not prepared or planned.

[5] This is off script.

[6] Welcome, welcome, welcome was the winner of our new tagline bracket.

[7] Honestly, if you would have had to predict, that would have been one of my lowest predictions of what would have won.

[8] The runner up maybe was the humanist of being messy.

[9] So now we have to legally change all of our documents and stuff.

[10] No, we don't.

[11] But armcherry's voted.

[12] You guys have spoken.

[13] And now it's not the messiness of being human, although it will maybe remain that way in previously written literature.

[14] That's too lazy to change.

[15] But from now on, it's a show about welcome, welcome, welcome.

[16] That's right.

[17] It's reflective of our show.

[18] Well, whatever the armcheries want, I want, okay?

[19] Because I'm an armcherry.

[20] That's my vote.

[21] Welcome, welcome.

[22] Now do I have to change, though, the greeting for the show?

[23] to humanness of being messy.

[24] Yeah, I think we're contractually obligated to swap them.

[25] Flip it.

[26] Okay, so now it's flipped.

[27] Why?

[28] Well, because Welcome, Welcome, Malcolm used to exist as the greeting.

[29] But now it's the description of the shows.

[30] It can only be in one place.

[31] Yeah.

[32] Do the math.

[33] Poor Emmy Rossum.

[34] She didn't even know she was going to be ensnared in this.

[35] Welcome, welcome, welcome.

[36] Emmy Rossum is here.

[37] She is an actor.

[38] She's a singer and a producer.

[39] She, of course, spent many years on Shakespeare.

[40] gameless, probably biggest hit on Showtime ever.

[41] Big, big show.

[42] Big show.

[43] Big boy show.

[44] Big show.

[45] Big show for big boys and girls.

[46] And the Phantom of the Opera, which we talk about, the day after tomorrow, Mystic River.

[47] And she is in a new show on Peacock called Angeline.

[48] It is out May 19th.

[49] And it explores perhaps one of the most fascinating characters in Los Angeles pop culture.

[50] If you don't know who Angelene is, you're going to be intrigued.

[51] This is a very interesting story.

[52] This is a person that's probably maybe the most famous.

[53] person in Los Angeles.

[54] Yeah.

[55] She is a celebrity.

[56] She's not an actor, a musician.

[57] Right.

[58] But she's enormously famous and she has a pink corvette.

[59] That's a one spoiler.

[60] Please enjoy Emmy Rossum.

[61] Wondry Plus subscribers can listen to Armchair expert early and ad free right now.

[62] Join Wondry Plus in the Wondry app or on Apple Podcasts.

[63] Or you can listen for free wherever you get your podcasts.

[64] Oh, my God, you got gifts.

[65] What just happened?

[66] This is a first for us.

[67] We don't give gifts.

[68] Well, I actually didn't come for you guys today.

[69] That doesn't surprise either of us.

[70] I came for your wife because I'm a really big fan of her book.

[71] Oh, purple people.

[72] Purple people.

[73] Oh, no kidding.

[74] I read her book every single night to my daughter, who's 10 months old.

[75] Right.

[76] And I don't know who gave me the book.

[77] You know, when you have a kid, people give you things, And suddenly you're just like, I don't know where all this stuff came from.

[78] Thank God, right?

[79] Because it really does take a village and you have no idea what you're doing.

[80] So she just gravitated towards this book and I was reading it.

[81] And so this is actually my first trip away from my kid.

[82] I've never been away from her before.

[83] And so I explained this trip to her, like she understands.

[84] Sure.

[85] I was like, hey, so I have to go to L .A. Because I actually am going to meet the writer of this book's husband.

[86] That's how I explain.

[87] So abstract.

[88] Yeah.

[89] I think even being one of the players in that story, I got confused at some point.

[90] Yeah, exactly.

[91] So this is the first trip.

[92] Yes.

[93] Okay, I'm wondering if you fall into this pattern that my wife and I do.

[94] So when I travel, I'm fine.

[95] Like first week, I don't really care.

[96] I'm not missing anybody.

[97] Don't give a shit.

[98] Week two, I'm like, I don't want to be alive.

[99] I got to get home, right?

[100] And hers is the opposite.

[101] Like first week is miserable.

[102] And then come week two or three, we have kids?

[103] It flips.

[104] So are you like an immediate pang?

[105] I guess you're just in, what, 48 hours?

[106] It's a little selfish maybe.

[107] If I have something to actually keep me focused, then I'm fine.

[108] Yeah.

[109] But if I like have a lot of time on my hands, I'm suddenly like no idea what to do.

[110] Yeah.

[111] I was just kind of transfixed by your eyes.

[112] The size and scope of them and the roundness of them.

[113] are overwhelming.

[114] And then they got just a little dewy.

[115] Yeah, because I was choking.

[116] Yes, you were hanging on by a thread.

[117] But I'm grateful for it.

[118] I'm sure it wasn't pleasurable for you, but for the audience here.

[119] For me, it got really, like, mesmerizing.

[120] Were you noticing the whole transition?

[121] I was getting codependent and scared.

[122] Oh, right, but she was worried.

[123] Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

[124] Okay.

[125] Yeah, I think that's why children like me because I'm like a little cartoon character.

[126] Yes.

[127] Kids just gravitate towards you.

[128] you're on the scene?

[129] Always have.

[130] Yeah.

[131] Did you always want kids?

[132] Theoretically, but not with the kind of immediacy that I kind of woke up one day with.

[133] Right.

[134] Okay.

[135] You kind of woke up and you're like, it's now.

[136] Yeah.

[137] And then I put it off a couple years.

[138] Right, right.

[139] Because of the industry that we're in, it just never felt like the right time.

[140] And then pandemic.

[141] And then I was like, well, if not now.

[142] Exactly.

[143] Why not?

[144] But I do have a question about that because I'm in the beginning steps of egg freezing.

[145] And I've no idea.

[146] Like I'm like, I don't know if I'm ever going to use those.

[147] I don't know if I want them, but it's like insurance, you know?

[148] So what clicked?

[149] Like, do you think it was in you?

[150] Do you think it was the relationship you're in?

[151] What changed when you woke up that day?

[152] I think I got over my own fear.

[153] I'm a perfectionist in everything I do.

[154] I'm my worst critic.

[155] Trust me. Like, I read Twitter, right?

[156] So I read all of that stuff.

[157] If those people think they're hurting me. They don't have a quarter or a tenth of the napalm that I could possibly explode on myself.

[158] Right?

[159] Like so nice try at Mr. Gross dude 27.

[160] Like you can't hurt me because I am so much harder on myself, right?

[161] And I think one day I just woke up realizing this is something that people do everywhere.

[162] And like I am worthy of having this experience and I'm not going to be perfect at it.

[163] And just because I'm not going to be perfect at it doesn't mean I shouldn't try to be perfect at it.

[164] No. Yeah.

[165] So I think whereas in my work I run towards things that terrify me, I think in my life, I don't have nearly the kind of hubris that I have in my work.

[166] In my work, I love things that scare me. And in my life, I am very slow to make decisions, usually.

[167] Boy, there's a lot of nuggets right there.

[168] You just gave him so much food.

[169] Okay, I've got like three follow -up questions.

[170] One, do you think it was at all intimidating, recognizing that your mother, she did it by herself?

[171] That's a Herculean task and she was employed.

[172] This is great because I have no idea how you feel about your mother.

[173] I love my mother.

[174] Okay, great.

[175] Me too.

[176] Obsessed.

[177] Single mother, same sit.

[178] Yeah, my mom and I FaceTimed already twice this morning.

[179] Right, right, right.

[180] So in some weird way, Like, that can be a blessing and a curse.

[181] If you have terrible parents who phoned it in, you're like, yeah, I think I can do this.

[182] But if you have kind of like a superhero mom, it can be like, fuck, can I do the thing she did?

[183] Was there any of that?

[184] Like, was the bar just really high?

[185] You saw the dedication she had the time available for you.

[186] Yeah, sacrifice probably.

[187] I don't know.

[188] I mean, it's really interesting in terms of like parental philosophy because there's so much more therapy going on now than was 30, 40 years.

[189] ago.

[190] So I think the ways in which we are aiming to kind of curate the way we message to our kids is so focused and deliberate and kind and open.

[191] And I feel like there was just a loose parenting style.

[192] Loosey goosey.

[193] Or kind of like this is the way we were raised.

[194] So that's the way we're going to do it.

[195] Right.

[196] We don't need to be better necessarily.

[197] We don't need to have like so much anxiety of messing up our kids because like everybody's messed up.

[198] It's all going to be messed up.

[199] But my mom is a fabulous mother.

[200] She's also an incredibly creative, brilliant woman who was an incredibly celebrated photographer and artist.

[201] My mom waited until she was almost 40 to have me. I don't know.

[202] Yeah.

[203] We're going to figure that out today.

[204] Okay, great.

[205] Yeah, yeah.

[206] When you leave here, you're going to have like an ironclad answer.

[207] Okay, my next thought was, you're a Wunderkin.

[208] Like, I don't think in researching someone other than Ronan Farrow...

[209] Also a New Yorker.

[210] Yes.

[211] I don't think I've come across such a Wunderkin as you.

[212] I don't even know the meaning of that word, so I don't think I'm a wonder kid.

[213] I know you do.

[214] I know you do.

[215] It's a wonderful kid.

[216] It's like impossibly successful child.

[217] Yeah, it's like a doogie Houser.

[218] Douglas Houser, MD.

[219] Okay.

[220] You know, you're feeling me. Yeah, because Ronan was in college in Columbia, maybe.

[221] Yeah, he was like a child at college.

[222] That's a vunderkin.

[223] So here's my other theory I'm going to hit you with.

[224] We should just stop there because I feel like you're making me sound great.

[225] So I should just not undermine anything.

[226] Well.

[227] It's all down.

[228] From there.

[229] No, it'll be a coin.

[230] So one side of the coin is Wunderkin.

[231] Okay.

[232] Yeah.

[233] Overachiever.

[234] Incredible.

[235] So people understand the caliber of Vunderkid and you are.

[236] You became a part of the Metropolitan Opera as a chorus singer at what, seven?

[237] Mm -hmm.

[238] Yeah.

[239] Okay.

[240] And then you were there for five years you sang behind Poverati and all these different people, right?

[241] And then I'll fast forward, you leave school.

[242] You're like, this is enough for me. Not exactly.

[243] Okay.

[244] But for the sake of the Reader's Digest person.

[245] The TLDR.

[246] Oh, what does that same?

[247] Too long didn't read.

[248] Oh, damn.

[249] Oh, I like that.

[250] Ding, ding, ding.

[251] Okay.

[252] Like, give me the 4 -1 -1 because it's too long.

[253] I'm not going to read the article.

[254] Just give me the logline and I'll metabolize it.

[255] TLDR.

[256] Headlines.

[257] Yes, I'll synthesize it and I'll create my own article, which I'm doing now.

[258] But yes, and then you do this online Stanford graduation certificate, whatever.

[259] You get your diploma at 15.

[260] What?

[261] You're in Columbia at what, 15, 16?

[262] Or when do you get to Columbia?

[263] Like continuing studies.

[264] But, yeah, I'm in there with adults.

[265] Right.

[266] And you've already done 100 movies.

[267] you are on a soap opera at 11 years old.

[268] Yeah.

[269] So you're a Wonderkin.

[270] The other thing I would just suggest is that clearly you can have control of that space.

[271] Or you couldn't have kept doing the things you were doing.

[272] Like you could control your voice.

[273] You sang happy birthday and 12, what is it, 12 octaves?

[274] Keys.

[275] I don't even know.

[276] Yeah, so you could do that, right?

[277] You had enormous control over your voice.

[278] And then I assume on stage you feel like you have a ton of control.

[279] You're good at executing the thing that's in your mind.

[280] I was really good at playing pretend.

[281] You're downplaying.

[282] You can't accidentally just keep getting in all these things.

[283] You're good at it.

[284] To be good at it, you have to have kind of control of yourself in those situations.

[285] I think that you have to, and I really believe this about anything.

[286] I think, at least for me, how it works, is I have to academically understand something so well and know it so well that I can go and have fun with it.

[287] then I can just play pretend and I can forget all the learning and just be in it.

[288] But yeah, I was raised in like a classically rigid environment with training that was rigid.

[289] That was, these are the notes on the piece of paper.

[290] They are black and white.

[291] It is a musical, there's a musical signature.

[292] It's not new math.

[293] It's not the Star Spangled banner with a million riffs that like, it's not expressive.

[294] You're singing it the way it was intended, the way Puccini wrote it.

[295] You're not going to pick your nose.

[296] It is mathematic.

[297] The notes are math.

[298] It's all on a scale.

[299] And that was my best subject in school, too.

[300] It was.

[301] Yeah.

[302] That makes sense.

[303] And you can achieve perfection in those.

[304] Well, I think what's nice is that it's not rated on a curve.

[305] Exactly.

[306] Like, you get it right or you get it wrong.

[307] Yeah.

[308] It's like once I wrote an essay for something when I was like in third or fourth grade and the teacher was like, this was very interesting and gave me a C. And I was like, what?

[309] Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[310] Like clearly that was your euphemism for I did not enjoy this essay.

[311] It was not well -written, right?

[312] It was maybe interestingly not good.

[313] But I don't know.

[314] I liked the rigidity of that.

[315] You're so smart.

[316] You know where I'm going with this.

[317] I don't, actually.

[318] Oh, okay.

[319] Was I a deeply troubled child on the inside?

[320] No, but again, I'm a child of a single mom.

[321] It's a different experience in that there's not the stability of two people.

[322] I wanted to be impressive.

[323] Okay, there we go.

[324] There we go.

[325] I knew that my mother was a great artist.

[326] I wanted to be worthy and impressive at being her child.

[327] Oh, for sure.

[328] I like that.

[329] I don't think that was at all intentional.

[330] But I knew that my mother valued art. And I knew that my mother valued the classical arts.

[331] I mean, I grew up like going to the museums.

[332] I mean, I loved natural history.

[333] And I wanted to play soccer, too.

[334] But, like, I never had the same love of soccer or tennis or anything like I did classical arts.

[335] And I wanted to be a ballerina, too, first.

[336] But my hips sucked.

[337] How does one's hips suck?

[338] They don't turn out the way they're supposed to.

[339] It wasn't the way my body works.

[340] Right.

[341] And I had this other talent.

[342] And I love doing that.

[343] And I really liked playing pretend.

[344] I really liked going out on stage and putting on costumes.

[345] I liked being different than other kids.

[346] I always felt different.

[347] Well, that's where I was going.

[348] So I was going to ask if the other aspects of your life, because it wasn't prescriptive, you couldn't study it, you couldn't master it.

[349] It was just free for all chaos.

[350] You can't really steer it all real life if that was kind of a refuge from that.

[351] I never felt like my childhood was chaos at all.

[352] What was it like being in school?

[353] as a child actor.

[354] Oh, well, I started singing at the opera in second grade because a music teacher actually in music class at school suggested that I go audition there as an extracurricular.

[355] And what started as an extracurricular became kind of a gig.

[356] Five to ten bucks a night.

[357] So she was like 20 bucks.

[358] Kids are now unionized, thank God.

[359] But we weren't back then.

[360] And, I mean, I was in an academically rigid environment in like a prep school.

[361] And then I was in the classical music world, which was an incredibly rigid environment.

[362] And at home, I had a single mom who was an artist.

[363] But it was never chaos.

[364] I mean, my mom would travel.

[365] I meant more like social interactions at school.

[366] How did those go?

[367] Well, I went to a really fancy school.

[368] You did.

[369] Okay.

[370] Oh, okay.

[371] But I was one of the only children with a single parent in my grade.

[372] And that in 1990, when I showed up there, there were some unchoice words that were communicated to me, unintentionally by other students.

[373] Sure.

[374] Probably how it was messaged to them by their parents about kind of my home life and me not knowing who my father was or where I was from or who I was.

[375] But I loved school.

[376] The school was incredibly encouraging of my talent and was in fact the place that sent me to the opera to find this extracurricular when everyone else was doing soccer and ballet and other things and the most interesting thing about this school is that they really hyper -focus on the kids and try to help the kid find what it is they really love.

[377] Yeah, that's lovely.

[378] And so unintentionally, they ended up helping me find that.

[379] And it ended up taking up so much of my time that I then ended up having to leave that school and do my schooling online.

[380] But I was never bullied at school.

[381] I was never hazed at school.

[382] Nothing like that.

[383] I was just the kid that lived in a studio apartment with my mom and shared a bathroom and all of my mom's salary went to sending me to this school.

[384] Well, so in my Michigan neighborhood, We were, I want to say, the only single mom on the block.

[385] There were kids who weren't allowed to hang out with me. Their parents didn't want them at my house because God knows what was happening over there.

[386] Similarly, my mom could not afford this neighborhood we were in.

[387] It was like scraping and scrounging.

[388] So I personally had a little bit of less than.

[389] I had a little bit of, oh, everyone thinks I'm trashy because there's three kids and no dad around.

[390] And then so for me, I deeply desired to take control of that scenario in some way.

[391] I couldn't control the judgment of all these neighbors or how the parents looked at us.

[392] And so for me, it started as writing like, I can create this whole world.

[393] And in this world, that thing doesn't exist or even I'm getting the upper hand on that thing.

[394] That's what I mean kind of by chaos.

[395] I probably didn't say it specifically enough.

[396] I suppose for me, I think I felt more chaos inside.

[397] I think I felt that I didn't have a lot of context for who I was and I liked finding myself in scenes where I could express the intensity of feeling that I felt inside within the parameters of a safe environment.

[398] Not to be too corny, but also if you're kind of struggling with who you are in this whole thing, someone tells you this character is homeless.

[399] They're this.

[400] They're a gymnast.

[401] It's like, ooh, I can click into the same thing.

[402] that's already defined.

[403] Yeah, I think also certain people are just born with like a very intense amount of feeling.

[404] Oh, yeah, yeah.

[405] I live with three of them.

[406] Yeah.

[407] I was just that person.

[408] I call it very osmotic.

[409] Oh, osmotic.

[410] Like I have osmosis with other people.

[411] So if other people are feeling something around me, I'm feeling it too.

[412] Yeah.

[413] Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

[414] I'm surprised my wife and you aren't better friends.

[415] We should be.

[416] You should.

[417] She too was trained operatically as a child.

[418] She's an incredible singer.

[419] She said the same about you last night.

[420] I'm embarrassed to say, I didn't even though you signed.

[421] Me either.

[422] And then I always run it by her.

[423] I'm like, do you know what Emmy?

[424] Oh, yeah.

[425] Is she a good singer?

[426] Oh, she's an incredible singer.

[427] She was in fan of the opera.

[428] She just ran through your credits and she's like, yeah, she's an outstanding singer.

[429] And I get the real, real.

[430] Of course.

[431] It had to gone the other way.

[432] I just would never brought this up.

[433] I think I felt like my feelings were kind of like a little bit of like monkey brain.

[434] They would like ping pong around in my body.

[435] And I liked having a very specific outlet to be able to put them.

[436] It was like when you feel so much inside and somebody goes, okay, but between nine to five, you get to go to a place where you get to feel all those things and just get them all out and then you get to go home.

[437] I think for a lot of boys, that's sports.

[438] They don't know what to do with this cavemany desire to destroy everything around that.

[439] Someone puts a ball in their hand.

[440] They're like, oh, do this.

[441] Yeah.

[442] But also going back to you saying you wanted to be impressive because of your mom, it also seems like maybe you wanted to be impressive because if you're in this.

[443] school and you're the only one with a single mother.

[444] There's probably some subconscious thing happening of like, yeah, you're looking down on me, but I'm better than all of you.

[445] Like you want to prove that you're worthy of being there.

[446] Even now, I don't feel honestly as impressive as most of the women that I went to school with.

[447] No. They're brilliant.

[448] They have startups.

[449] They work at Goldman and sacks.

[450] They run VCs.

[451] Like, they can talk about things that I have, I don't know Bitcoin.

[452] Like, I don't know what they're, I don't understand those words.

[453] It's a different language.

[454] I don't understand.

[455] It's just not my language.

[456] And yet, I can hang out with them.

[457] And by the way, four or five of my closest friends are my friends from kindergarten.

[458] Oh, that's so cool.

[459] I live across the street from one of them.

[460] I live half a mile from another one.

[461] We're all so close.

[462] And I always feel like I'm trying to prove myself to myself somehow.

[463] Did you have any chip on your shoulder about money?

[464] If you've heard more than one episode, you would know I have this big class warfare thing happening in my head all the time.

[465] And it's ridiculous.

[466] Say more about that.

[467] Give me the TLDR.

[468] Yeah, I'm going to hit you with the TLDR.

[469] We were broke and everyone else seemed to have everything.

[470] Very easily, I feel like people are trying to demonstrate I'm low class or something.

[471] It's all in my head.

[472] I recognize it.

[473] But it's kind of a residual thing about rich people and people who are super entitled.

[474] I feel like I have a very real fear of not having because it's not rational.

[475] I don't think there's any amount of money that could ever make me feel safe.

[476] It's like kind of like a moving mark, right?

[477] Because it's not real.

[478] You just have to keep yourself afraid so you don't get comfortable.

[479] So you make a number and then you get there and then you're like, so that must not have been what safety is.

[480] I couldn't agree more.

[481] My wife will even say, like, hey, hon, you know, you pass that thing and you seem to be more scared.

[482] Like, yeah, yeah.

[483] That's what made me recognize.

[484] Like, oh, it's a fear, which means it's not rational by any means.

[485] And then there's nothing objective I can throw at it to combat it.

[486] I just at some point have to convince myself I'm safe and things are fine.

[487] Yeah, I guess it's interesting for me because my daughter will grow up in a different way than I did.

[488] Yeah.

[489] She'll hopefully, God willing, have two loving parents.

[490] She'll have stability.

[491] But I, wonder what that experience will be like for her because my mom and I shared a toilet until I was 17.

[492] Yeah, yeah.

[493] I'm so happy that you don't have a door here to your toilet because I felt quite comfortable because I'm honestly more comfortable using the bathroom with the door open.

[494] Yeah, I could live here the rest of my life.

[495] Right.

[496] I got a fridge.

[497] I got a fucking running water.

[498] We're good.

[499] But all I can say is in the grand scheme of things, how I define success is really, can I go into the grocery store and not look at any prices.

[500] Oh, yeah.

[501] That is a great benchmark.

[502] If I can go in and be like, I want this yogurt and I'm not going to look at what it costs.

[503] You're not going to price compare with the other brands.

[504] Or like, I want this steak tonight.

[505] We're going to eat this.

[506] Yeah, yeah.

[507] That to me is like, you've made it.

[508] You hit the number.

[509] You're good.

[510] Mine is don't look at the gas price.

[511] Oh, well, you should look at it now.

[512] Well, I'm aware of it.

[513] But what I'm saying is the first 10 years in L .A. when I was broke, it killed me that gas price.

[514] So when I can fill up and I'm not too concerned.

[515] I'm like, oh, baby.

[516] This is good.

[517] Or for me, and then ordering pizza, which was this huge luxury.

[518] I never did.

[519] But every time I order pizza, I'm like, that's right, girl.

[520] Can I tell you I once got called by the credit card company because someone somehow got my credit card number and ordered pizza?

[521] And that's how they knew it wasn't me. Oh, because you don't order pizza.

[522] I literally never ordered pizza.

[523] Okay.

[524] Now, so what I'm really curious about when I discover that you're of underkin.

[525] I'm feeling very self -conscious that you are.

[526] It's a huge compliment.

[527] No, it's so funny because I just constantly think I'm, like, not achieving enough.

[528] Sure.

[529] So the fact that, like, people deem me as that.

[530] That's a trait of a wonderkin.

[531] It is.

[532] Very vunderkin of you.

[533] It's very on brand for vundercins.

[534] How do you feel about Ronan Farrow?

[535] I think Ronan Farrow is incredible.

[536] Me too.

[537] Absolutely incredible.

[538] He's a vunderkin.

[539] So just imagine how you're looking at Ronan Farrow, and I'm looking at you in the same way.

[540] And then I have some follow -up questions about that.

[541] Okay.

[542] You're just going to have to accept.

[543] That's how I look at you.

[544] you how do you not burn out like i'm looking at how much work you've done by the time you're like 18 or 20 and you've already won awards right like you've already picked up a critic's choice you've already been nominated for a golden globe by 22 three something like that i had a period where i kind of didn't do much for about a year and a half two years where i tried to muddle my way through what age was that in between what movies 20 and 22 before the start of shameless after I did some pretty big movies.

[545] Okay, right.

[546] I was getting out of a not very good relationship and kind of living in L .A. by myself, going out a lot.

[547] Oh, here we go.

[548] Not to an unhealthy extent.

[549] Could we argue that you were like trying to have your teenage years maybe?

[550] Because I don't think you had them.

[551] I mean, I had a fake ID when I was 14 in New York and was out at clubs till 2 in the morning, drinking, smoking.

[552] Okay.

[553] It did it all.

[554] Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[555] I did everything, Wonderkind.

[556] I went hard on all fronts.

[557] It wasn't like I was like some goody two shoes.

[558] He was like in the classical music environment.

[559] I was like doing that but at the same time like going for it.

[560] Yeah.

[561] I wouldn't do it when I was working because I treated that with utmost respect.

[562] Yeah.

[563] And honor.

[564] But when I wasn't working, I was drinking and hanging out and at clubs and 1415 and I would like go by a cute top and tight jeans.

[565] Sure, the whole nine.

[566] Yeah.

[567] I would argue you needed to blow off some fucking steam.

[568] Like, you're not going to say it, but you sang in six different languages.

[569] Yeah, but for me, that wasn't like a big deal.

[570] I have a very intense audio memory.

[571] Like, I don't remember anything visually.

[572] Right.

[573] I'm not a visual person.

[574] I'm a total audio person.

[575] So if someone speaks and I listen to it, I can pretty much repeat it.

[576] If somebody says something to me in an argument, I'll remember it 16 years later.

[577] I can just replay it in my head.

[578] So, yeah, so repeating in different languages or anything like that, to me, it felt quite natural.

[579] That's a lot of work for a kid.

[580] And you're also picking up your high school diploma and you're popping into some philosophy classes and whatnot at Columbia.

[581] There's a lot going on.

[582] Yeah, I did a lot of things for short periods very intensely and at a high level.

[583] Okay.

[584] Phantom of the Opera.

[585] That's like the first enormous.

[586] Is that accurate?

[587] You were in Mystic River and Day After Tomorrow.

[588] Right.

[589] And then Phantom of the Opera.

[590] But for me, Phantom of the Opera, now this is like you started singing and you transitioned into acting.

[591] And then it's Andrew Lloyd Weber.

[592] It's all these things.

[593] That has to be like the kind of pinnacle to that point.

[594] Yeah.

[595] I was a scary time.

[596] I was very intimidated during the whole process.

[597] You audition for him at his house?

[598] First I met with Joel Schumacher at his house.

[599] This was in L .A. And then he said, we are screen testing in New York on Saturday.

[600] You're going to be there and you're going to sing a song from Phenomen the Opera.

[601] And Andrew's not going to be there.

[602] It's going to be me and the other actor who's in it.

[603] You're going to perform.

[604] We're going to put you in full hair and makeup.

[605] And there's going to be a set, just you and a piano.

[606] Just stand there and sing the song.

[607] I had actually never heard the music for Phantom of the Opera.

[608] Did not know it.

[609] Me either.

[610] Crash course in four days of learning those songs.

[611] And I didn't realize that the big run at the end of the song was not supposed to be staccato.

[612] I just didn't read music.

[613] I'm not a visual person.

[614] Right.

[615] So I just did it as sticado because I thought that would be interesting.

[616] Didn't realize it's supposed to be legato.

[617] In any case, they ended up liking it and doing it.

[618] It was kind of like it.

[619] a mistake that like people thought was a brilliant intentional choice, but like I literally just didn't know any better.

[620] So that's how I ended up doing it.

[621] And then after that, I was called to Andrew Lloyd Webber's house along with one other young woman who was auditioning.

[622] I ended up getting the role.

[623] Spoiler alert.

[624] Right.

[625] But the big screen test that we did the weekend prior was like six or seven girls.

[626] It was in an old studio in New York that was not soundproofed.

[627] I got there at like nine in the morning for like five hours of hair and makeup.

[628] Oh my God.

[629] And I could hear all of the other girls saying.

[630] And I could see them passing me in the hall and I knew who they were.

[631] And I knew I was last.

[632] And for me, I had this in my head that if I was last, they didn't save a lot of room for me at the end of the day.

[633] And it was like a foregone conclusion in my head that I had actually come into the process quite late.

[634] Okay.

[635] And I just assumed I was the backup, backup, backup.

[636] Right.

[637] But that can be helpful now.

[638] No. I was so scared of that audition.

[639] which is on YouTube now.

[640] And I can see how scared I am in the audition.

[641] Like, I'm literally shaking.

[642] I can barely sing the song.

[643] But it's so right for the character because she's terrified, basically the entire movie.

[644] And I remember just crying the night before just saying to my mom in our studio apartment, like, I don't think I can do this.

[645] I think this is too much pressure.

[646] And she was just like, go do it.

[647] And then we'll go get ice cream.

[648] And like, we'll just watch a movie and it'll be over.

[649] We'll share the bathroom.

[650] Yeah.

[651] We'll sit on the toilet together.

[652] But just like do it and get it over with.

[653] And for me, that's kind of what it was.

[654] I just knew going into it, I wasn't getting it.

[655] And then when I found out that it was me and the other woman and we were going for the callback, I figured again, I was second choice.

[656] And then I found out I was second choice.

[657] She got the job.

[658] Oh, she did.

[659] Oh, my God.

[660] Congratulations to her.

[661] And then she couldn't do it.

[662] And I ended up getting the job.

[663] But this is a brilliant actress who made musicals after that.

[664] Who's wonderful.

[665] Yeah.

[666] By the way, I just want to say, I like when I've convinced myself I can't get it.

[667] Because then I'm like, there's nothing at stake here.

[668] I'm going to, like, do the thing I want to do.

[669] Yeah, that was the same thing with Shameless because I was told that they thought I was, like, to Phantom of the Opera.

[670] Okay, sure.

[671] So I could never play that kind of rough and tumble character.

[672] I always kind of do best when I'm the underdog.

[673] So it's like, when I come in here and you tell me I'm a wonderkind, I'm like, no, I can only eat it on the underdog.

[674] Let me rephrase you're a piece of shit.

[675] Great.

[676] I'm so comfortable.

[677] A real hat.

[678] You sat in your apartment, your whole life, waiting for people to knock at the door and go.

[679] So, Emmy, would you like to be in Phantom of the Opera?

[680] I guess.

[681] First of all, how old is Andrew Lloyd Weber?

[682] I don't know, but not young at the time.

[683] I know so little about this world, so I'm just owning my ignorance on it.

[684] Right.

[685] So my hunch is you're going up to see, like, Mr. Burns, in my mind.

[686] Yeah.

[687] And I'm imagining it's like a castle somewhere.

[688] It's not.

[689] It's an apartment on Central Park West.

[690] Oh, okay.

[691] So it was a short ride.

[692] Yeah.

[693] Oh, damn it.

[694] I was picturing you, like, in the back of a town car as a young woman, and then the gates open.

[695] It's like in a high rise.

[696] It's like Halloween.

[697] No. Okay.

[698] Is it weird to go into someone's house and do it, or is it more comfortable?

[699] I don't know.

[700] I was honestly just.

[701] And a blackout?

[702] Totally.

[703] And like a total panic K -hole.

[704] Right.

[705] Once you get something, does it...

[706] Nope.

[707] Still no. Nope.

[708] I mean, I sob even shooting this new show, Angelene, like cry the first 40 nights.

[709] Really?

[710] Because you don't feel like you're doing a good job?

[711] Correct.

[712] Wow.

[713] I feel like I don't know what I'm doing.

[714] I'm not prepared enough.

[715] I think it's just part of my process.

[716] What makes you feel like you are doing enough?

[717] Is it other people telling you you are?

[718] No. That doesn't work.

[719] No. No, somehow that makes it worse.

[720] Is there anything that you're like, oh, fuck, yeah, I stuck the landing on that one?

[721] Are you able to, in retrospect, see that you've succeeded?

[722] Especially with this new character that I played because she presents visually nothing like me. I think there was a real liberation for that in me. Yeah, yeah.

[723] But there was so much that was so familiar about the character of Christine and Phantom of the Opera to who I really was, somebody that was raised in a classical music environment, somebody that was fatherless and searching, somebody that was like always looking for the validation from older men.

[724] Like, I think there was a lot that was very, very familiar there to me. So I don't think there was the liberation that I felt in the disguise of somebody like the shameless character or like the Angeline character.

[725] me yeah well i'm gonna get to angeline because you're fucking crazy good in that if they didn't put your name on it there's no way i would know that was you playing her thanks yeah yeah i'm sure you'll figure out a way to twist that into something negative no i'm not trying to i'm trying to get better at being okay with things going okay right the way i've found some peace is just to remind myself it doesn't fucking matter at all and i think everything matters yeah which is great that's why you're so talented, but I would argue you could be just as good and effective, recognizing that and then none of it means a goddamn thing.

[726] I will say now having my daughter.

[727] Exactly.

[728] There is incredible peace in the presence of a moment and not imagining what that moment could have been if it could have been better or different or worse or how it will be perceived.

[729] She demands my attention and my presence and loves me. And by the way, all she needs is, Your presence completely she doesn't need you to do it perfect just needs me to lay on the floor On your lamest day and hold this rattle that's what she wants and that's it and that's great I mean I will also say I think there's a certain level of like darkness and anxiety that I Experience around my work because I'm sourcing some kind of feeling I think I need for the work Right and now that I have children there's really no amount of terror that can possibly compare To all the ways my brain can tell me that the child could hurt herself or die at literally any moment, right?

[730] So now I can just use that.

[731] Yes, yes, yes, yes.

[732] No need to contort myself because we live high up in the sky of a building and every window is a terrifying moment.

[733] Oh, that's me. Like, I used to go hiking across the street all the time.

[734] I didn't think much about Mountain Lions.

[735] And now every single walk, the whole walk with the family.

[736] There's something that could eat my child.

[737] I'm planning my defense.

[738] Stay tuned for more armchair expert.

[739] If you dare.

[740] What's up, guys, it's your girl Kiki, and my podcast is back with a new season, and let me tell you, it's too good.

[741] And I'm diving into the brains of entertainment's best and brightest, okay?

[742] Every episode, I bring on a friend and have a real conversation.

[743] And I don't mean just friends.

[744] I mean the likes of Amy Polar, Kell Mitchell, Vivica Fox, the list goes on.

[745] So follow, watch, and listen to Baby.

[746] This is Kiki Palmer on the Wondery app or wherever you get your podcast.

[747] We've all been there.

[748] Turning to the internet to self -diagnose our inexplicable pains, debilitating body aches, sudden fevers, and strange rashes.

[749] Though our minds tend to spiral to worst -case scenarios, it's usually nothing, but for an unlucky few, these unsuspecting symptoms can start the clock ticking on a terrifying medical mystery.

[750] Like the unexplainable death of a retired firefighter, whose body was found at home by his son, except it looked like he had been cremated, or the time when an entire town started joking.

[751] jumping from buildings and seeing tigers on their ceilings.

[752] Hey, listeners, it's Mr. Ballin here, and I'm here to tell you about my podcast.

[753] It's called Mr. Ballin's Medical Mysteries.

[754] Each terrifying true story will be sure to keep you up at night.

[755] Follow Mr. Ballin's Medical Mysteries wherever you get your podcasts.

[756] Prime members can listen early and ad -free on Amazon Music.

[757] I'm curious about not having a dad and not knowing your dad.

[758] I do now.

[759] You do now?

[760] Yeah.

[761] Growing up like that, if that made you feel like I need a man in my life, or I definitely don't need a man in my life.

[762] I think it made me feel I needed a dad.

[763] It wasn't like a one -to -one thing.

[764] Did you date older guys?

[765] Sometimes.

[766] Sometimes I dated younger guys.

[767] Sometimes I dated older guys.

[768] Full spectrum.

[769] Yeah.

[770] I really have always loved companionship.

[771] Yeah.

[772] And I've always loved very intense connection.

[773] And it didn't matter really how old the person was.

[774] Sometimes they were famous.

[775] Sometimes they were not famous.

[776] I've dated journalists, I've dated rock stars.

[777] I've dated people that were unemployed.

[778] I've dated people that were waiters and people that were billionaires.

[779] And for me, it's always about some kind of energetic smiz.

[780] Ooh, smiz.

[781] Smiz.

[782] That's a new word for us.

[783] It's how I kind of describe that smizzy feeling when you meet somebody and zzzze.

[784] Oh, like butterflyy.

[785] Buzzing.

[786] It's like some kind of like, ooh, energy that you feel when you meet somebody.

[787] Electricity.

[788] Sure.

[789] Could you articulate generally what type of person?

[790] triggers the zizz smiz smiz i want to get it right somebody that's intense okay usually they have some kind of intensity about them interesting because you're pretty intense we would say yeah i think so i'm imagining you at a first date with one of these smiz people i didn't usually have like first dates okay we'll skip ahead to the fifth dinner together okay and i pictured the eye contact like imagine the waiter walking up to you and your smiz partner and going like holy fire They're mind melding.

[791] I'm going to step away and give them a second.

[792] Yeah, because I imagine if you connect with someone, it's because there's a deeper thing.

[793] My relationships always moved really fast.

[794] There we go.

[795] There was never really a fifth date.

[796] It was kind of like a first date and then we lived together for three years.

[797] They were kind of all like that.

[798] Do you think your love addictie at all?

[799] I've never investigated it or had it diagnosed.

[800] Right.

[801] Here's how I define it for myself.

[802] I have been able to regulate my internal feelings with external relationships.

[803] quite well.

[804] I can get pretty high on them.

[805] I can get very intense into them.

[806] I can get whirlwindy in it and the love bubble can be intense.

[807] That's kind of my pattern.

[808] I mean, I had a very, very close, very intense relationship with my mother.

[809] So that was the kind of relationship that I was, I think, have been trying to recreate.

[810] And the partner that I ended up with, my husband, not unlike my mother, wildly successful, creative, very ambitious, hungry person, but was not at all the success that he is now when we met.

[811] And he's always had a very specific belief that that was his trajectory, even when nobody else could see that that was in the cards for him.

[812] It's not so one to one that, like, not having a dad made me want to date older men, not having a dad made me have to find a therapist who's my dad's age.

[813] that I can text at any time.

[814] Yeah, and I don't even mean older.

[815] I mean, like, were you seeking a man who could take care of you or nurture you or something like that?

[816] I think I was probably seeking love on a much greater scale.

[817] I think I was probably seeking love and validation through performance and thinking that if I could escape into a character and those characters could be loved, then by virtue of the fact that I had a connection to those things that were loved, that I was loved to.

[818] For sure.

[819] My mother worked so many hours and had three kids.

[820] So when she wasn't working, we'd get in bed and we'd spent all day, Saturday, snuggling.

[821] And it was that.

[822] It was like, okay, it's on.

[823] And we're going to soak it all up for the rest of the week.

[824] I mean, that's one of the aspects that has made me into that.

[825] Of wanting that kind of connection.

[826] Yeah, the like, let's spend the whole three days in bed, connected, snuggling, reassuring.

[827] And then off out into the world with that in the back pocket.

[828] and then do your thing and then come back.

[829] Almost like you're recharging?

[830] Yes.

[831] That's nice.

[832] Okay.

[833] You had done a bunch of movies and then you do shameless.

[834] And this is kind of early into the days of movie stars doing shows and there's cachet in shows.

[835] I think it's a little, for lack of a better word, ballsy or brave.

[836] It was the beginning of the Renaissance of television?

[837] Exactly.

[838] Was that decision hard for you?

[839] Not at all calculated.

[840] Not.

[841] No. Does like William H. Macy help that scenario?

[842] No. I'm not thinking about it in terms of any kind of calculation.

[843] I'm just thinking that I'm not seeing roles that I want.

[844] I'm not seeing things that are challenging me. Like, I like things to be hard.

[845] That level of focus weirdly like quiets my nervous system.

[846] I like to be terrified of something in my work.

[847] I like to not know if I can pull it off or not.

[848] And I loved the character.

[849] It was obviously like a completely different kind of world than I grew up in.

[850] Yeah, like to be honest, if I'm a show creator, show runner, I'm a casting person.

[851] And I'm like, oh, you grew up in Manhattan and you went.

[852] to a private school, for me, you're out.

[853] So in that way, I could imagine it being extra intriguing to leave such a different area and succeed in that one.

[854] I think there was a rawness to the character that I felt was easy for me to access inside, but not something that I had ever been encouraged to explore or expose in characters before.

[855] In all of the films that I had done before that, There was an intentional effort to polish the character in a way that that's who the character was on the page.

[856] And that's not who this character was.

[857] Well, even the things you were in were really cinematic.

[858] So they were really, really produced, choreograph, visually perfect.

[859] So, yeah, I mean, even mechanically how this show was executed is so different from everything you had done visually.

[860] I know you don't like visuals.

[861] No, no, no, I do.

[862] It's just not how I learned things.

[863] Right.

[864] Did you have a learning disability?

[865] I don't think so.

[866] I don't know, but can we give me one?

[867] Because I like to struggle.

[868] Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[869] It's a better story.

[870] You were blind until you were 11, right?

[871] Isn't that what I read?

[872] Yeah, I think I connected with the poignancy of the character.

[873] I connected with everything she felt she had to prove, everything she had on her shoulders.

[874] And I connected with the, like, the ferocity of the way that she loves.

[875] And I was really interested in appearing in a very unglossy way.

[876] And I was highly interested and motivated to explore female sexuality in a way that wasn't really being explored on TV as much or in film, certainly in America.

[877] Well, what was the archetype that you think only existed and how did this one differ?

[878] A lot of times there would be kind of sex scenes with like movie stars with their bras on.

[879] Uh -huh, sure.

[880] And there were these kind of sex scenes that were like, you know, the camera fades out the window.

[881] And it was kind of like there was this lens of shame on female pleasure and enjoyment.

[882] And I really liked the idea of this character who we could learn about her emotional life more through her sexual encounters.

[883] Sure.

[884] Scenes that feature sex acts can be sometimes even more revealing than just dialogue scenes.

[885] And so it's very interesting because, like, I have a sex scene that I'm.

[886] about to go do in a couple weeks.

[887] And when I'm talking with my acting coach, because I have a lot of teachers, I believe in teachers.

[888] I have a vocal coach.

[889] I have a acting coach.

[890] I have a movement coach.

[891] Monica, I will be submitting to be one of your teachers at the end of this.

[892] Thank you so much.

[893] I can teach you about building an engine.

[894] I love it.

[895] By the way, I'll probably take you up on this.

[896] I will need to become the best engine builder after this.

[897] I think we talk about like this sexing that we're going to do, that this is the answer to a deep thirst.

[898] We describe the sex, so it's not just mechanical.

[899] It's this sex scene that should feel like a small prayer is being answered.

[900] Sure, sure.

[901] Like, that's what that moment feels like for that character.

[902] It's not just an orgasm, right?

[903] Because there can be, they can be a little peak, there could be a huge peak.

[904] There can be a toe -shattering climax, right?

[905] There can be a sex that's like just great and then you want to get up and go on with your day.

[906] Or there can be that moment where it's so earth -shattering and it's almost like, gives you a reason to exist in that very moment.

[907] There's a true intimacy that existed.

[908] Or like gives you hope in a way.

[909] Humbles you.

[910] You could almost cry at the perfection of it all.

[911] Monster ball?

[912] Yes.

[913] Yes.

[914] It's saying something about a human experience and sex is something that deserves to be looked at, not through the guise of shame.

[915] And I'm not somebody who has the easiest relationship with sex either, which is why I think I find it so interesting in my work as well.

[916] I think that I really move towards these kinds of moments.

[917] You want the sex scene to actually be an integral plot point.

[918] Like, we're seeing it because something happened to the character in this moment that's worth you seeing.

[919] That's crucial to their arc and to the story of this human being's life and existence.

[920] Did you like shame?

[921] Not to get confusing, but the movie's shame.

[922] I feel like I saw it.

[923] The Fastbender.

[924] Okay, for me, that movie was like earth -shattering, because the sex scenes were kind know what we're talking about, which is like, it's a wide.

[925] Oh, yeah, there was a lot of penis in that, right?

[926] There sure was.

[927] Yeah, I think I saw it.

[928] Well, I like that part of it, for sure.

[929] But anyways, they would just be these wides, right?

[930] And you'd see the whole thing unfold.

[931] And it would slowly get closer and closer and closer throughout it.

[932] And that's the first sex scenes I've ever seen in a movie that gave me the mirror neurons of having sex.

[933] I'm like, oh, this is the whole thing, the kind of explosion, the movement, everything.

[934] And I was like, oh, they did it.

[935] And actually all the tricks, all the camera moves, all the angles, all that shit actually makes it not real.

[936] Okay, moving on.

[937] Can we talk about negotiating at the end of seven?

[938] I assume you said I'm not going back unless I'm getting paid equal.

[939] Or is that an uncomfortable topic?

[940] It's not uncomfortable now.

[941] Initially, when you sign these deals there for five or six years, I think my first deal was for six.

[942] They approached me after year two or three and asked for instead of six to add a year.

[943] And when they did that, they renegotiated my deal.

[944] And I think we threw it out there at the time that really what we were looking for was pay equity because by the time it was the third or fourth season, it had become clear that my role and that of Bill Macy's were equal.

[945] That was not something that was granted to us at that time.

[946] But I was happy to continue the show.

[947] I loved everyone that I worked with, and I loved the show.

[948] And I loved what we were doing.

[949] And I felt that it was important.

[950] And then at the end of a couple more seasons, they came back and asked to extend again.

[951] And it was at that time that I entered into this kind of very year -long private negotiation with the studio saying that that's kind of what we wanted.

[952] Over the course of that year, I definitely wavered.

[953] There were lots of moments where I wanted to cave, where I questioned what we were doing.

[954] Who was your megalith during that period?

[955] What was your Gibraltar that you would lean on in those moments?

[956] My lawyer, my agent.

[957] They were unified in their...

[958] Oh, yeah.

[959] They felt very strongly that there were other people in our industry that had asked for that and gotten it and that we could too.

[960] And they were surprised that we weren't getting it.

[961] Prior to you doing that, the conversation in those situations went like this.

[962] Oh, this actress did this six years ago and they replaced her.

[963] This actress did it and they canceled the show.

[964] What you had in front of you was a mountain of evidence that doing this would result in something terrible.

[965] And you're a big, big part of the ball rolling in the opposite direction.

[966] So now when my wife is negotiating or another woman's negotiating, they'll go, Emmy did this and she got it.

[967] Yeah.

[968] It's really fucking huge.

[969] It is huge.

[970] Sorry.

[971] No. No, not so nice.

[972] Thank you is what we should be saying.

[973] For everyone that did it after you, it got that much easier because you were the proof that it could be done and it should be done.

[974] It's not that you want to that.

[975] It's that you deserved that.

[976] It was so surprising and scary because one day I just opened up Twitter and it was trending.

[977] Oh, sure.

[978] And that's how I found out that a private negotiation was somehow made public.

[979] Of course.

[980] And I was terrified.

[981] One of the tactics at a certain point is for the studio to let it out there that this person's asking for this much because they know in America, the rest of America, people go, what the fuck?

[982] She was already making that.

[983] She's so unhappy.

[984] And they'll lose the whole message, which is like, it doesn't have anything to do with that.

[985] It's if I'm leading the show as much as someone else, I should be getting the same thing.

[986] But it's easy for them to shock people with numbers that everyone else would be grateful for.

[987] It's a strategy.

[988] I'm not saying that that was them, but I've seen it happen with other studios and other actresses.

[989] Yeah, I guess after that happened, it was resolved relatively quickly, which was surprising.

[990] Yeah.

[991] How quickly it happened after that and the outpouring of support.

[992] Your business is private, right?

[993] Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[994] Like, you have a private contract and then suddenly it's public and everyone knows.

[995] and that's like really uncomfortable.

[996] Sure.

[997] Money's is just a dicey conversation, period.

[998] I'm hugely relieved and grateful that we got it.

[999] I'm hugely grateful to be part of this kind of tumbleweed that is growing and carrying steam.

[1000] And sadly, my story is not unique.

[1001] It's not unique because I'm a woman.

[1002] It's not unique in my industry.

[1003] It's not unique to my industry.

[1004] And that disparity becomes even more stark when you factor in age, race, identity.

[1005] sexuality, body size.

[1006] It extends to everything in a way that is terrifying.

[1007] You're right.

[1008] You could plot it and chart it.

[1009] And all those things you just listed, you would just watch it go incrementally down.

[1010] But I think that just goes to show how we judge things in our society.

[1011] Yeah, yeah.

[1012] What we value.

[1013] Because we don't have a salary, right?

[1014] Our salary goes up from year and down to the next year.

[1015] And sometimes it disappears.

[1016] Yeah.

[1017] And sometimes I'll go a year where I'll make almost nothing.

[1018] And then the next year I'll have a windfall.

[1019] It'll be great.

[1020] But I try not to attach my worth to net income because it can be pretty easy to do that and to allow yourself to be defined one way or another.

[1021] We don't have another metric for value.

[1022] Can I quantify my happiness and myself worth this year and what I learned this year?

[1023] How good of a parent I was or a friend or a child or citizen.

[1024] Podcast guest.

[1025] She'll put that on the list, I'm sure.

[1026] Okay, Angeline, I didn't know what you were promoting.

[1027] I then watched the show.

[1028] I just need to paint the picture for folks who don't live in Los Angeles.

[1029] To live in Los Angeles is to have eaten at In -N -Out Burger, to have stood in line at Pinks for a hot dog.

[1030] And it's to have seen billboards of this woman, Angeline.

[1031] I've been here for 27 years, and I've seen the billboards my whole life.

[1032] And when there's a spotting of her.

[1033] So there's a woman who has billboards, Angelene, and it has a phone number for her management, maybe.

[1034] It's a phone number.

[1035] And then she cruises around town in a pink corvette.

[1036] And I have had the luxury and privilege.

[1037] of seeing her a few times.

[1038] And it is always like I'm watching Harrison Ford ride a horse down Franklin Avenue.

[1039] Like, I'm so thrilled when I spot her.

[1040] How much time have you lived in L .A. or not lived in L .A.?

[1041] I came out here for the first time when I was about 12 to audition for pilot season.

[1042] I lived in a tiny apartment above Sunset Plaza, actually in a studio apartment that had one time been owned by Axel Rose.

[1043] And definitely had his bathtub.

[1044] So I was pretty excited about that.

[1045] Sweet job.

[1046] Every time you're in there washing up.

[1047] I thought I was like pretty rad.

[1048] I think on one of the first trips to L .A. for pilot season that I was auditioning that I looked out of the window of my mom's Hertz rental car on the way to like some pilot season audition that I invariably didn't get and saw an Angeline Billboard.

[1049] And so above me was this blonde, voluptuous, imagine a Barbie doll, a very sexualized, scantily clad.

[1050] Barbie doll posed in what would have then been considered a very alluring, provocative pose.

[1051] But now it just would be called an Instagram stance.

[1052] And she was high above everyone.

[1053] And I was immediately drawn to her.

[1054] She was everything that I was not.

[1055] She was empowered in her sexuality.

[1056] Seemingly quite confident.

[1057] Powerful, confident, alluring, mysterious.

[1058] Like I saw a bunch of billboards for her.

[1059] And then I started asking people.

[1060] Who is this woman, Angeline?

[1061] And can I add one element to that, which is like, it's not a show she's promoting.

[1062] So it's not like, look at me, I have a show.

[1063] She's not promoting a product.

[1064] So really what is implicit in it, too, is the level of confidence, which is like, I'm the thing.

[1065] Well, that's what's so brilliant about her.

[1066] She's such a trailblazer.

[1067] Like, she came onto the scene in the 80s.

[1068] She put herself on billboards.

[1069] She got hundreds of billboards around L .A. At a certain point, she had a wall at the corner of Hollywood and Vine that was 10 stories tall.

[1070] And she was advertising her.

[1071] herself.

[1072] She believed that she could be famous and get the love of the world, not from something that she did, but from just who she was.

[1073] Oh, well, when you frame it that way, yeah, it's like before reality and all that stuff.

[1074] I mean, she invented, she was like 20 years too early.

[1075] The influencer.

[1076] Yeah.

[1077] Wow.

[1078] Yeah.

[1079] She's the original influencer.

[1080] She was the first person that got paid to do personal appearances.

[1081] Oh, so she did monetize it.

[1082] Oh, yeah.

[1083] She sells merch.

[1084] She sells t -shirts with her face on it.

[1085] Right.

[1086] She's the original.

[1087] I'm going to sell skim.

[1088] underwear and I'm going to have pink cars and I'm going to be this attention bubble and I'm going to get the love of the world.

[1089] Okay, not to divert ourselves, but do you know who Dennis Woodruff is?

[1090] That sounds very familiar.

[1091] So Dennis Woodruff was the much less flashy version.

[1092] Not Radio Man. No, I know Radio Man. I love Radio Man. Dennis Woodruff, similarly, he drove around town since I've ever lived here in a Cadillac with all this imagery all over the Cadillac, hire Dennis Woodruff, number, all these photos of him and different things.

[1093] And he, too, is kind of a mythical legendary to the point where Madonna went on a date with Dennis Woodruff.

[1094] Isn't that awesome?

[1095] Like at the height of her superpowers, I think is like, I see you Dennis Woodruff, which I dig.

[1096] Anyways, I just wanted if you also knew about Dennis Woodruff, because basically in LA we have two kind of mythical characters.

[1097] Well, no, because in L .A. we have a gazillion.

[1098] I think that's why it's bizarre and fascinating that she stood out and was able to do it.

[1099] Because if you're someone who comes to L .A. to visit, you're looking for a celebrity to spot.

[1100] And she's made herself that.

[1101] Like, if you see Angeline, you're like, oh, my God, I saw her.

[1102] Yeah.

[1103] It's also, like, kind of good luck.

[1104] You get a smiz from it, right?

[1105] You get a smith from seeing her.

[1106] Yeah, for sure.

[1107] Get very, very excited.

[1108] People had, like, wildly different stories about who she was, where she was from, right?

[1109] Some people would be like, oh, she's not even a real person.

[1110] She's from space.

[1111] Some people would be like, oh, she's from Ohio.

[1112] She's a small town girl from Idaho.

[1113] Some people would be like, oh, you know there's like 12 Angelines.

[1114] You can just like rent them out for a party or they replace them all the time.

[1115] The one I had always heard and I was prone to believe it, which is like, oh, this woman has a billionaire or a very rich husband who paid for all the billboards.

[1116] Yeah.

[1117] Was I wrong in that?

[1118] Well, we didn't get there.

[1119] To watch the second episode.

[1120] Oh.

[1121] Okay, okay.

[1122] No, she's a real business woman and she found a way to get all these billboards of herself that was not based on a sexual relationship at all.

[1123] Right.

[1124] It's way smarter than that.

[1125] She's a brilliant marketer.

[1126] She's quite a brilliant, brilliant, brilliant human being.

[1127] Right.

[1128] So the person we just described, it's like platinum blonde hair, it's head to toe pink.

[1129] It's, if I can say this in a tasteful way, like some adjustments to the face, to the breasts, and then you play her.

[1130] It's like Marilyn Monroe meets Barbie doll, meets Hello Kitty, hot pink explosion, pom -poms in the hair, it's hot, tight, like shorter skirts, tighter shirts, some cheetah, high shoes, tiny little hips, like tight gate, fast walk, nails, lips, tits, energy, like all of it.

[1131] And it's high octane.

[1132] Oh, big time.

[1133] And it has a, we'll sell you a t -shirt, give you like spiritual guru guidance, hand you a crystal for like positivity and energy, give you a gift of like a tea bag that she has in her car, like, your Starjeeling tea bag, but also buy this $150.

[1134] t -shirt and away in my hot pink corvette that is so noisy and is so attentiony.

[1135] As you just said, people thought she might be an alien.

[1136] I thought she was married to a billionaire.

[1137] Everyone had all these stories.

[1138] And for as famous as she was, and this shocks me about her actually, is that she didn't do press.

[1139] Certainly a million people wanted to get to the bottom of who she was.

[1140] And she just didn't do that.

[1141] That's so inconsistent with what I would guess.

[1142] I would imagine she'd want to be on every single talk show and sit for every interview.

[1143] She did some.

[1144] She did yeah she never kind of contradicted any of the narratives about her because they think with her she talks about herself as a rorschach test or a mirror that whatever you see in her is your truth and says more about you than it does about her that's how the pilot opens is you saying you're not a parrot right you're not going to do the voice yeah you're not going to do the voice damn it's incredible again you would have no fucking clue you could watch the whole thing and be like i don't know who played her i think Angelene did played her, but they took her back in time.

[1145] Well, I don't even think I'm necessarily playing her.

[1146] I'm definitely not trying to define her.

[1147] It's not a biopic.

[1148] It's not one of these, like, based on a true story.

[1149] For me, I'm much more interested in investigating everything that you're talking about.

[1150] It's the contradiction of all those stories and how those conflicting narratives build kind of a fame machine.

[1151] Yes.

[1152] And this kind of kaleidoscopic narrative and invest.

[1153] of what is identity?

[1154] Are we some facts about us?

[1155] Especially as a famous person as an icon, what an icon does is serve to speak to the person that they are inspiring at that moment.

[1156] And they are serving something based on what that person needs.

[1157] Right.

[1158] So I have heard all these stories throughout my childhood about this mythical Los Angeles icon.

[1159] And then there's constantly more stories being added to it.

[1160] And then the Hollywood reporter, apparently like, quote unquote, solves the mystery.

[1161] Was this in 97?

[1162] What year was this thing right?

[1163] This is 2017.

[1164] Oh, 2017.

[1165] What came out in 97?

[1166] There was some...

[1167] There's a documentary about her, like a Robinson and Divorat doc that she was in that's fascinating.

[1168] That's on YouTube.

[1169] Oh.

[1170] That's one of the only short form docs that was ever completed about her.

[1171] That's wonderful and fascinating.

[1172] And you're right.

[1173] It challenges like stereotypes and identity because you look at her and pejoratives come to mind.

[1174] You just make some assumption.

[1175] And what you find out immediately in the show is like she's been driving the whole time, which is fascinating.

[1176] Oh, she's in the driver's seat.

[1177] Literally.

[1178] Yeah, yeah.

[1179] And then what's also fascinating is there's a broader comment on life today versus life in the 80s, which is she's the last moment you could do this.

[1180] You could show up in L .A. and say, I'm X, Y, or Z. It's kind of like Tommy Waiso from the room.

[1181] It's like, who fucking knows or is he Romanian?

[1182] Is he this or that?

[1183] It's very similar.

[1184] Like, you could at that time really just re -reesome.

[1185] define yourself in the way that probably is lost today.

[1186] There'll be some paper trial on the internet of all people going forward that would be easy to disprove their narrative.

[1187] But she lived free from that.

[1188] Yeah.

[1189] I think now there's a focus on overcommunication, which I've probably done on this interview, right?

[1190] Talked about all these things that probably said too much.

[1191] No, I would argue this interview is an antidote to that, because you're talking about a curated thing, I think.

[1192] I think why people are drawn to podcasts is we've been getting photographs in 140 character summations of the person, which is curated.

[1193] And this you can only curate for like the first 10 minutes.

[1194] You get exhausted and you just start being yourself.

[1195] I actually think this is like part of the solution.

[1196] It's interesting because like Instagram and the visual mediums that we're in where these images are so curated and filtered, the way that we communicate our praise and approval on them is literally by double -tapping and putting hearts on them, literally sending love.

[1197] Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[1198] And I think that is a form of love addiction, of attention addiction.

[1199] Big time.

[1200] And that's a part of the story that moves me. You're a producer on it.

[1201] Were you involved from the get?

[1202] Did you, like, go and pitch this show?

[1203] Yeah.

[1204] Yeah.

[1205] I read the article when it broke on Twitter and it sparked this seed of an idea of should and can the mystery of a person ever be solved.

[1206] Who has control of a narrative and who gets the right to tell your story?

[1207] And are we a collection of facts or do we get to determine our identity based on how we feel we are inside?

[1208] Yeah.

[1209] I think I was hungry at that time to have more ownership of the things that I was part of and I was watching my husband to kind of create shows that were deeply resonant for him and felt so meaningful to him.

[1210] And I wanted that.

[1211] And I read this article and I started thinking about all the stories that I had heard about her as a child and what she represented to me. It just struck me as like, well, I'm sure no one will ever give me the opportunity to actually go make this thing, right?

[1212] Because if they were casting a character that was kind of based on the idea of a woman like Angeline, no one would be like Emmy.

[1213] Barbie.

[1214] You might be my last phone call.

[1215] The age span from this is from 17 to present day.

[1216] Right.

[1217] How old is she currently?

[1218] I won't say.

[1219] Okay, great.

[1220] She doesn't believe in age.

[1221] Sure.

[1222] It's a construct.

[1223] That's fair.

[1224] Stay tuned for more armchair expert, if you dare.

[1225] You've met her then for this project.

[1226] Was she involved?

[1227] Okay.

[1228] You have to walk a real tightrope for this project because there's the obvious appeal of her, right?

[1229] Which is a little gawkery.

[1230] It's a little rubbernecky.

[1231] I have it.

[1232] And then you recognize a couple of truths.

[1233] One, if you're going to commit to playing this person for 10 episodes or however many, you personally have to take it seriously and you have to care about.

[1234] her and then you want to be kind to her and also expose the other things a normal biopic where it's like oh you're going to play babe ruth it's like okay we're going to celebrate this guy we're going to talk about three of the shitty things he did and then we're going to wrap it up right it's like a perfect formula for it but when you're starting with someone's outside image is already i'm saying it's not you but someone might think like oh she's a joke you're not going to make 10 episodes of a show roasting someone as being a joke you would never do that you want to actually explore it but you also have to acknowledge the heightened absurdity of the whole thing, which is like pink corvette and all this stuff.

[1235] So that's a tightrope.

[1236] Was that challenging to find your lane into that?

[1237] You want to be respectful and you also want to give everyone what they want.

[1238] Yeah.

[1239] I mean, I think the most interesting thing about Angeline is that she understands that people will underestimate her based on her appearance.

[1240] And I think she knows that's her power.

[1241] She's really quite brilliant.

[1242] I think she's profound.

[1243] I think she's deep.

[1244] And I think if you read some of the things that she said or written, there's such a tenderness and a profoundness to her.

[1245] One of the things that inspired my character of Angelene, which is loosely based on her, is her love of the Barbie doll.

[1246] She says that she loves the Barbie doll.

[1247] She idolizes the Barbie doll and would like to be like the Barbie doll because the Barbie doll feels no pain.

[1248] You can stick her with things and she doesn't hurt.

[1249] She can't get cancer.

[1250] She can't die.

[1251] She's invulnerable.

[1252] And wouldn't that'd be nice never to hurt?

[1253] And what was her vet called?

[1254] Her star vet.

[1255] Yeah, I have one too.

[1256] I have a little tiny pink corvette plastic star vet that someone got me, the little toy.

[1257] It's so great.

[1258] So I think that there's a childlikeness to her.

[1259] When you meet her, she has incredible hummingbird energy.

[1260] Oh, sure, sure, sure, sure.

[1261] Very intense, fluttery.

[1262] Phrenetic.

[1263] Much more kind of focused than that.

[1264] She's a workhorse is what I met, right?

[1265] Yeah.

[1266] I met her at the Hollywood Roosevelt Hotel.

[1267] Firstly, I Got there 15 minutes early, like the good student that I am.

[1268] And she arrived on time, but then I could see out the window.

[1269] She spent an hour selling merch in the parking lot.

[1270] That's great.

[1271] Which I loved because I just got to, like, watch.

[1272] You probably learned a little bit more about her then.

[1273] Yeah, just being a voyeur.

[1274] But she sat down and she put her napkin on the chair, and then she sat on the napkin.

[1275] Oh, wow.

[1276] And she said, so, why do you have such a hard on to play me?

[1277] Wow.

[1278] And I was just like, okay.

[1279] That's so awesome.

[1280] I'm incredibly impressed by her.

[1281] I think she's done the impossible.

[1282] She's been able to maintain her allure and her celebrity for decades in a town that's incredibly fickle.

[1283] And she's done that by not refuting any of the stories.

[1284] And I think that's so interesting.

[1285] And to your point, if you guys both got out of the Corvette, like you're famous, people are going to walk right the fuck past you.

[1286] If I have dinner with her, everyone's going to be staring at her, not me. I mean, she is enormously famous.

[1287] in this town.

[1288] Like, her and Schwarzenegger are out.

[1289] I don't know who gets more looks.

[1290] And that was her goal.

[1291] So it's like a success story.

[1292] Yeah.

[1293] I've met Barack Obama, Buzz Aldrin.

[1294] I was shaking, nervous, almost crying to meet her.

[1295] Right, right, right, right.

[1296] Like, by that point, I'd read and seen everything she had done.

[1297] She has meditation tapes that I had memorized.

[1298] Uh -huh.

[1299] And we had, like, long, in -depth, very complicated conversations about Eckhart Toll and Alan Watts and philosophy and she's an incredibly deep, interesting woman.

[1300] So interesting.

[1301] Is she single or we're not allowed to know?

[1302] We didn't get that personal, but I assume so.

[1303] It's very Tammy Faye.

[1304] Oh, did you see it?

[1305] Yeah.

[1306] She's brilliant.

[1307] It's similar.

[1308] It's like this person, there's stereotypes and there's all of this outwardness, but there's a brilliance in there.

[1309] And it's just so fascinating.

[1310] Yeah, I kind of was watching it going like, oh, yeah, women have often had the upper hand than the dudes thought they did and it's kind of comical.

[1311] Yeah, I think it's kind of her way of gaining control in like a patriarchal society.

[1312] Are we allowed to say because of course we want everyone to watch the entire thing, Angelene, which is going to be available on Peacock on May 19th.

[1313] At any right, she was from Poland.

[1314] Her parents are Holocaust survivors.

[1315] According to the Hollywood reporter.

[1316] She refutes that or she doesn't even acknowledge the question.

[1317] She would tell me that I would never deny anything.

[1318] I got you.

[1319] Because that would hurt the mystery.

[1320] Right.

[1321] So according to the Hollywood reported, though, to me, that makes the story that much more endearing.

[1322] Like, I know what it's like to grow up in Detroit and look at Hollywood from the outside.

[1323] But then you add the layer of growing up in Poland, perhaps, with Holocaust survivor parents, looking at America first is already this kind of weird fantasy land.

[1324] And then the capital of fantasy land is Hollywood.

[1325] what a difference from where she perhaps started and where she ended up.

[1326] It's crazy.

[1327] Well, I will say she describes herself that what you see in her and the story that you make in your head about her is more important than what it actually is.

[1328] So for me, reading that story, I'm a Jew, thinking about a woman for whom that might have been part of a story.

[1329] I think there's a real resonance.

[1330] The story that I read in the Hollywood Reporter, be it true or not, it really moved me. Yes.

[1331] And it was the seed of something profound for me because owning my own Jewishness, Judaism as part of my identity in America now, in the world now, there's a danger to it.

[1332] And it's something that I've wrestled with as well.

[1333] Right.

[1334] That part of that story was interesting to me. Yeah.

[1335] There is like a really cool message, which is ultimately you do decide exactly who you want to be.

[1336] Like, it's very empowering.

[1337] The one I'm inclined to like and believe is that she came from Poland and her parents were Holocaust survivors.

[1338] And here she is in Hollywood and everyone in Hollywood knows her.

[1339] So me coming from a dirt road in Michigan and moving here, like, of course, that's the one that appeals to me greatly.

[1340] And having had a very traumatic childhood with a bunch of different shit, I got to decide, no, no, I'm going to do this and I'm going to do that.

[1341] And then I did it.

[1342] So, of course, that's the thing that attracts me to her story.

[1343] is the one I'm attracted to and myself.

[1344] I suppose I like the narrative that all of them are true and none of them are true.

[1345] I like the idea that the mythology of this icon is so much more profound and complex by the crowdsourced kind of Wikipedia nature of it all and that we live in a society where contradictions are allowed to exist.

[1346] And we're at this important moment we're like we're really digging into identity right now and how do you define it and who gets to define it.

[1347] Gender.

[1348] Right.

[1349] And I think it's so fascinating.

[1350] There's a lot there.

[1351] Yeah, yeah.

[1352] Well, I just want to end on saying that you're incredible in it.

[1353] It's such a fucking, again, I can't say it enough.

[1354] Just I wouldn't know.

[1355] I would have no fucking clue.

[1356] I've had that a few times.

[1357] One being vice when I'm watching the Dick Cheney movie.

[1358] And I'm looking at Christian Bale.

[1359] I don't know.

[1360] There's a thing on the internet where people are showing Christian Bale and Kristen Bell and they keep mixing up.

[1361] Then it's Christian Bale.

[1362] Anyways, I watched that.

[1363] And after like 14 seconds, it had never occurred to me that it was Christian Bale again.

[1364] It was just like, oh, wow, fucking they got Cheney to act in a movie.

[1365] This is incredible.

[1366] And you had to see you and all that stuff, they did a great job on it.

[1367] And it's really cool.

[1368] I would want you to feel proud, but you're not going to.

[1369] I do.

[1370] Oh, good, good, good, good, good.

[1371] I do.

[1372] Okay, good.

[1373] I feel that what we made was totally bizarre.

[1374] And I like it.

[1375] Let me throw a hypothetical at you.

[1376] Okay.

[1377] It's a billionaire, like a cabillionaire.

[1378] Let's say the Sultan of Brunei, okay?

[1379] Oh.

[1380] You get a call, your manager, your agent, they call you and they go, this is so weird.

[1381] Will you go to the Sultan of Brunei's birthday party as Angeline for $600 million?

[1382] I would be like, no, you should call Angeline the numbers on the billboard.

[1383] And also nobody should go to the Sultan of Brunez's birthday party because they probably do terrible things there.

[1384] Well, let's reverse.

[1385] Not at the birthday party, but in those kinds of countries.

[1386] Let's reverse it.

[1387] Okay.

[1388] You're my agent.

[1389] Okay.

[1390] And Sultan of Brunei wants.

[1391] They want you to perform at the Super Bowl as Angeline.

[1392] Okay, that would be a better way to get you to say yes.

[1393] But no, this is the exact same scenario, but you're my agent and they want me to play Frito from idiocracy at the birthday party.

[1394] Go ahead.

[1395] Hit me. Hey, Emmy, what's up?

[1396] Hey, so we want you to do the idiocracy thing at the Sultan of Brunei's birthday party.

[1397] We have $600 million for you.

[1398] Oh, my God.

[1399] Well, first, yes.

[1400] They won't provide airfare or any.

[1401] kind of green room you got to get yourself there okay and put yourself up i think i misunderstood you did you did you say it was 600 million i did i did of their currency or ours u .s dollars u .s dollars okay you know what yes okay you're just like yes remember when money doesn't give you safety i know but maybe 600 million would no i would love to know one day we'll interview jeff Bezos, and we'll ask if he feels safe.

[1402] It's conceivable that he doesn't.

[1403] Yeah.

[1404] Because it's a fear.

[1405] I don't know.

[1406] I met him a couple times.

[1407] Does he feel financially secure?

[1408] Couldn't tell you.

[1409] We didn't get into it.

[1410] I didn't ask him.

[1411] I mean, this has been a total pleasure.

[1412] I thank you so much on your very short trip.

[1413] By the way, and away from your child, you shouldn't be doing this.

[1414] You should be fucking out one of those nightclubs you loved.

[1415] No, I told you.

[1416] That's how I explained the trip to her.

[1417] Checked.

[1418] It's done.

[1419] It's rage time.

[1420] Have one rage night.

[1421] Well, I have all of my purple people's stickers here in her wife's book.

[1422] So I'm really excited.

[1423] This is a great cross -promotion.

[1424] This is what we would call an in -show advertisement, which we don't normally sell.

[1425] I love that she had a bunch of swag just laying around.

[1426] And guess what?

[1427] I just kind of lost an argument, which is like there's all this stuff all around the house.

[1428] So I'm like, does this need to be here?

[1429] What's going to happen?

[1430] We're going to have a book sale here?

[1431] By God, it worked out.

[1432] It worked out.

[1433] I love it.

[1434] Well, thanks for coming.

[1435] I hope you enjoyed yourself.

[1436] And I hope the next time.

[1437] you do another crazy character.

[1438] You'll come back.

[1439] I won't chat about that.

[1440] I like that.

[1441] All right.

[1442] Vunderkin.

[1443] And now my favorite part of the show, the fact check with my soulmate Monica Padman.

[1444] Hey.

[1445] Have you noticed how good Delta's buy is?

[1446] Bye.

[1447] You know, the younger generation just does everything better.

[1448] In fact, while we're on the topic, I got to send you this really quick.

[1449] Okay.

[1450] I just want you to watch it.

[1451] Oh, I just got it.

[1452] Oh, my God.

[1453] we went to in and out on a date her and I and we took the link in which was really fun she got this in and out hat so she put this in and out hat on i don't know where she's getting it i don't know what's prompting it but she said can you take some pictures of me and i go yeah so then she starts throwing up like signs like west side all these different hand signals and she's even in this thing i just said monica she's like squatting down and shaking her shoulders and throwing some gang signs and it's just how does she know how to do this like i couldn't do it do it as good as she's doing.

[1454] She's making like a tough face.

[1455] Yeah, tough guys.

[1456] She's got her little in -and -out cap on paper hat.

[1457] We had a whole photo shoot.

[1458] I've got probably 40 pictures of her on my Lincoln throwing gang signs.

[1459] We're in the in -and -out parking lot.

[1460] People are watching.

[1461] Of course.

[1462] Excited.

[1463] My only self -consciousness was I was like, they think I have told my little girl, like, get on that car and splay yourself out and throw gang signs.

[1464] Yep.

[1465] I'm just the photographer.

[1466] And I was trying to wrap it up, too.

[1467] I kept going like, okay, we got some great ones.

[1468] And then that was not enough for her.

[1469] What a ham.

[1470] We had so much fun at end and now.

[1471] Because we haven't been out eating in forever.

[1472] Yeah.

[1473] So for Sitch, we were at one of those, you know, they got those little four tops, but they're separated.

[1474] Inside, you mean?

[1475] Inside.

[1476] Yeah.

[1477] We sat in the restaurant.

[1478] And again, so she's only seven, so two years she has not been people watching.

[1479] Yeah.

[1480] So we sit down first next to us, a father -daughter also out.

[1481] they're from Brooklyn and so we started chat went down where you guys there from Brooklyn oh you're in and out chat chat chat then a bigger table opened up so we bounced we bowled on those people okay then there was a table next to us of four folks three dudes from DC and then this woman and Delta who's Polish told me her favorite Polack joke okay and then I said I think you should let these dudes in on it so So then she told these dudes from D .C., they were beside themselves.

[1482] What is the joke?

[1483] How many Polacks does it take to screw in a light bulb?

[1484] You know the answer.

[1485] I forget.

[1486] One to hold the light bulb, two to turn the latter.

[1487] And it's because they're supposed to be stupid?

[1488] Yes, exactly.

[1489] Okay, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

[1490] Yeah.

[1491] But of course, I had to tell these guys before she said, I just want you know she's Polish.

[1492] So she's allowed to.

[1493] Yeah.

[1494] What I really like about that is, she's finally embracing her funniness.

[1495] She's allowing other people to laugh.

[1496] She used to, she mean, she's been funny since literally she's been three months old, but she used to not like it when people would laugh.

[1497] She'd get self -conscious about it.

[1498] Yes, but she couldn't help, but she was just so funny and no one could help but laugh, but that was a hard dynamic because then she'd get upset.

[1499] She thought they were laughing at her, not with her.

[1500] Yes.

[1501] But she now understands her laughing with her.

[1502] And at some point it was like, you're going to have to get over it, like you're funny.

[1503] Yeah, you're not, you can't not be funny.

[1504] Sorry.

[1505] Yeah, sorry.

[1506] Okay, so this is what I was enjoying so much is Lincoln and I have our motorcycle thing.

[1507] Lincoln's not trying to talk to strangers.

[1508] That's not her jam.

[1509] I love talking to strangers.

[1510] And Delta, she loves talking to strangers.

[1511] So I found us there.

[1512] We were at this in and out for like an hour and a half talking with anyone that would sit next to us for a while.

[1513] And I was like, oh, this is our thing.

[1514] Like, we'll go places and just shoot the shit with strangers.

[1515] And I was saying, don't you like people watching?

[1516] She was like, oh, she loved it.

[1517] Yeah.

[1518] So fun to watch people.

[1519] Especially at an in -and -out, man. You're getting every walk of life in there.

[1520] You're making me hungry.

[1521] Did you get animal -style fries?

[1522] I sure did.

[1523] Thought of you.

[1524] Thought of you.

[1525] So good.

[1526] Okay, Emmy.

[1527] Emmy.

[1528] Oh, now it would be a good chance.

[1529] Yeah.

[1530] Just because I've been wanting to.

[1531] Okay.

[1532] Can I play that song?

[1533] Sure.

[1534] So if people listen to the bonus episode of Armchair Anonymous, Rob forced me to sing a song.

[1535] an impromptu song and I sang it it was terrible but then Bob Mervak heard it and then he scored it and it really makes me laugh so I just wanted to play it for everyone okay do want to sing a tune or something for this new show so here I go go and some random questions and with the big it's a suggestion on the fly I rhymedish so stupid it's very funny and the fact that he put that whimsical music on the second one he made it a real song wow should be noted because i was like it sounds good like for i thought no i thought it was bob at first also my my hearing's going it's about as good as your eyesight it's getting as it's getting as good as my eyes like yeah which isn't great i know my aller i think it's allergies or something.

[1536] It sounded like Bob was singing it.

[1537] Oh.

[1538] And turned out it was still you and it's not fixed or auto -tuned or anything.

[1539] I think that's obvious.

[1540] Are you really a really good singer?

[1541] Well, I told you when Bob sent it to Chris and he said, your husband sings in capital all the keys.

[1542] Yeah.

[1543] That's a burn, obviously.

[1544] Depends on how you look at it.

[1545] That's a good point.

[1546] That's a nice point you're making.

[1547] Okay, Emmy.

[1548] So Emmy, is a wonderkin yeah total wonderkin and it reminded me that there was this hilarious picture of ronan pharaoh that just went around that i i sent to you oh it's a little baby at college yes he's at college and he's a small kid he's not a baby baby he is he's like delta sage no well he's like 10 or 11 or something yeah oh my god just stroll in the campus of columbia is that i think that's No, so that's a fact.

[1549] You said that and no. He went to Bard College and then he went to Yale Law School.

[1550] Okay.

[1551] He also went to Center for Talented Youth and Magdalene College.

[1552] Oh, my God.

[1553] Slow down, dude.

[1554] Leave some college for the rest of us.

[1555] How old is Andrew Lloyd Webber?

[1556] He is 74.

[1557] Okay.

[1558] Seventy -four and, I mean, fandom of the opera came out.

[1559] well, the Emmy one came out.

[1560] 2004 is when the movie came out.

[1561] Okay, great.

[1562] So how old was he then?

[1563] 2004, that's 18 years.

[1564] What do you say it was, 74?

[1565] So that's 56.

[1566] Great.

[1567] Does that work?

[1568] Yeah, I'm not even going to test it.

[1569] I think that might be it.

[1570] Speaking of which, the Lincoln had occurred.

[1571] We did the math yesterday when we got to in and out.

[1572] 55 years old.

[1573] Cool.

[1574] I know.

[1575] That's really cool.

[1576] Okay.

[1577] Okay.

[1578] One hilarious thing that happened, and I hope the listeners heard it, you asked her, during her negotiations, you asked, who was your megalith during that time?

[1579] I did.

[1580] Yeah.

[1581] Oh, wow.

[1582] You didn't mean to, I don't think.

[1583] I don't think he was referencing me as much as the Rock at Chabraltar.

[1584] Yeah, because then you said the Gibraltar, but you said Megalith.

[1585] And then I thought maybe you'd want to do some Megalith.

[1586] I'd rather not.

[1587] I'm quite busy.

[1588] What are you doing today, Megalith?

[1589] Why are you so busy?

[1590] I'm at In -N -Out Burger watching this man abuse his child.

[1591] I'm thinking about intervening.

[1592] You should.

[1593] What's he doing?

[1594] He's yelling, sheesh, and bussing.

[1595] I'm confused by it.

[1596] It seems like it's child abuse.

[1597] This can't be right.

[1598] I'm going to intervene.

[1599] No, that car is 55 years old.

[1600] What are you doing?

[1601] It was her idea.

[1602] It appears it was her idea.

[1603] How embarrassing.

[1604] How embussing menage.

[1605] Now, if you'll excuse me, I'm late for a reverse back.

[1606] Okay, you mentioned Radio Man. Oh, yeah.

[1607] But then you guys didn't.

[1608] Yeah, it's worth explaining.

[1609] Yeah.

[1610] Radio Man is a very, very famous fixture in New York City.

[1611] If you are ever, ever filming in New York City, you'll see a man right up on his bicycle.

[1612] He appears to be unhoused.

[1613] That's what it seems like.

[1614] Okay.

[1615] He has a radio.

[1616] That's why he's called that.

[1617] He has a transistor radio.

[1618] He knows every single production that's happening in New York.

[1619] And he's very nice and kind and lucid.

[1620] And he'll say, yeah, well, I was just over on the 75th and whatever.

[1621] Gwyneth Paltrow's filming a blank.

[1622] He's such a staple that everyone talks to him.

[1623] Like, Gwyneth Paltrow will go out and talk with Radio Man. So he's really...

[1624] Wow.

[1625] And he wrote his bicycle from New York when I was dating Kate, Hudson.

[1626] He wrote his fucking bicycle from New York to Boston to go on her set and say hi.

[1627] Oh, my gosh.

[1628] Isn't that incredible?

[1629] And then one time, I swear I have this right, I randomly bumped into Luke Wilson walking down the street in Manhattan.

[1630] And we started talking and then Radio Man rolled up on his bicycle.

[1631] And then Luke was like, hey, Radio Man, what's going on?

[1632] Wow.

[1633] Yeah.

[1634] Cool.

[1635] Yes, he's very cool.

[1636] I bet there's a dock on Radio Man. He's such a staple.

[1637] I have to imagine there's a doc about it.

[1638] Yeah.

[1639] There's a doc about the Bergman here in Los Feliz.

[1640] There is a doc.

[1641] There is.

[1642] Called Radio Man. Oh, conveniently titled.

[1643] Who's Birdman?

[1644] Oh, my God.

[1645] This guy in East L .A., so Los Felus Silver Lake, mostly Silver Lake, he hangs up all these flyers.

[1646] They're all over the map, these flyers.

[1647] They start with, like, don't poison the pigeons.

[1648] He's convinced people are poisoning the pigeons.

[1649] And additionally, he is available for massage therapy.

[1650] Oh.

[1651] And he only does women.

[1652] And it's $7 an hour.

[1653] And he's also an actor that you can hire.

[1654] And it says, contact me at www.

[1655] YouTube .com.

[1656] So every flyer, your urge to contact him at YouTube somehow.

[1657] It's just YouTube .com.

[1658] Oh, wow.

[1659] My favorite person, well, not my favorite.

[1660] There are so many great ones.

[1661] But maybe the most interesting man I've ever met was a camera operator on Parenthood.

[1662] We've talked about him a bunch when we had the Beastie Boys on, Arturo, Scipio, Africano.

[1663] and he would bring me these flyers at great risk because this guy ever sees you taking his flyers down you're in trouble so he would bring them to parenthood and we would just we couldn't get enough of him we'd read them over and over and over again there's so many there's like a little picture of him in a movie he did he's Italian just go to youtube .com and you can watch it and then the massage thing once he branched into massage work that was really wild he's also a bodyguard so he can be a bodyguard and he also can I'm not I don't want to wants to use the word escort, but basically he could be an escort as well.

[1664] Okay.

[1665] Real jack of all trades.

[1666] Sky's the limit.

[1667] And the massage prices were amazing.

[1668] We had this whole thing where we were going to try to rig a room up and have some of the female members of Parenthood who were going to be willing to receive a massage from him just to see like what happens in that sitch.

[1669] And we would be in another room, obviously, in case things got dangerous.

[1670] But everyone was going to end in this.

[1671] It never happened, unfortunately.

[1672] But that would have been great because, A, it could have been a great massage.

[1673] Probably not.

[1674] My guess is no, but we don't know.

[1675] And his name was something Romeo, like his last name was Romeo.

[1676] And he was an Italian stallion.

[1677] Do people know what he looks like or it's just flyers?

[1678] I think someone made a dock on him.

[1679] I'm sure.

[1680] I want to say Arturo told me that there was a dock on him finally.

[1681] Wow.

[1682] So many mythological humans in this world.

[1683] Yeah, enchanted.

[1684] Anytime you have a city over 5 million people, there's going to be some really exciting folks.

[1685] Yeah, some legends.

[1686] there was a Chicago guy named Thax Douglas that he's a Fax?

[1687] Yeah T -H -A -X And all the bands would He would open the show and read a poem that he would write But like Wilka would have him out And all the big bands coming through Yeah same kind of thing Well maybe if we do a show in New York We could interview Radio Man That's a big swing But I would I guess I would try it Um That's it Oh I just realized that was it.

[1688] That was a really unceremonious ending.

[1689] I know because I wrote.

[1690] What did you write?

[1691] I wrote Angeline dash mystery of identity.

[1692] I thought we could like have a conversation about that.

[1693] But then you want to save it for the, I just nah.

[1694] I mean, we can.

[1695] Of course.

[1696] Well, that's what's interesting.

[1697] Like obviously Emmy had a lot of respect for her having played her.

[1698] Yeah.

[1699] But it, and I think she was hesitant.

[1700] to say that maybe that newspaper piece that had been written...

[1701] Hollywood Reporter.

[1702] Hollywood Reporter was accurate.

[1703] But it sounds like consensus when I was doing research is that that is her story.

[1704] She's like from...

[1705] But I guess the hard thing is we can't ever 100 % confirm because she won't 100 % confirm.

[1706] Angelene won't.

[1707] So it's hard to know for certain.

[1708] I'm sure they've done a lot of research.

[1709] So my guess is they...

[1710] I can't imagine the Hollywood reporter.

[1711] Yeah, could have printed all that without being liable.

[1712] That would be my guess.

[1713] too.

[1714] But she likes the idea that there are lots of stories around her.

[1715] She does.

[1716] She would never like sue them.

[1717] Right.

[1718] Because she wants that.

[1719] It's fascinating what we can construct of ourselves.

[1720] Well, talk about the power of making your reality whatever you wanted to be.

[1721] I know.

[1722] Because she is truly one of the most famous Angelinos to ever live.

[1723] She really is.

[1724] Yeah.

[1725] There's something really hopeful about it and then for me there's also a sadness oh big time yeah because you got to ask yourself to be famous for the sake of being famous for me would be empty like to not to be famous without being respected for something I do but but maybe I'm full of shit like when I left Michigan if you just said like you can just be famous like everywhere you go people know you I probably would like that and said sure yeah I don't know I don't work for it but right sure I would that's just like being popular, I guess.

[1726] Everyone wants to be popular.

[1727] I can see the idea of wanting it.

[1728] I don't think the reality of it would be that fulfilling personally.

[1729] But again, that's person to person.

[1730] It also came with a really extreme makeover, which again, I'm sure people have makeovers that extreme and they're totally fine.

[1731] But it does scare me that you would change your wholesale to a Barbie doll, that's why that's the sadness for me is I think if you're dead set on.

[1732] constructing an identity, it's because you are lost.

[1733] Or, yeah, you don't like your current.

[1734] Both are bad.

[1735] You don't feel in touch with that original one, or you don't like it, or you don't want that to be true.

[1736] Like, there's all these options.

[1737] But it's really complicated, right?

[1738] Because the identity you construct might be an artistic powerhouse.

[1739] You know, like it might be a bottomless well of creativity, and yet it is still a persona.

[1740] So, yeah, it just all gets murky.

[1741] I think a lot of performers have a persona.

[1742] Yeah.

[1743] I think anyone naturally is too shy to get up in front of 100 ,000 people and just start saying, look at me, I'll hold your attention for the next two hours.

[1744] That's a pretty bold, even for the most confident person.

[1745] So I think you almost, a persona is required.

[1746] A persona or like an armor or something, but not.

[1747] P persona non grata?

[1748] not a full -blown That's the prestige Living the persona at all times Yeah I just don't think like Have you seen the episode of Euphoria Yet No I'm on two and a half I know I think I know but I think it's in two Where the girl She's depressed Okay And then she's like in her bed And there's all these like You know people there in her head That are like yelling at her and like Be Conno Remember last year when you were that when she, like, was being really bold and had this persona?

[1749] Yeah.

[1750] And they were like, that's confidence.

[1751] And she was like, it wasn't real.

[1752] So that that helps you, but it's not real.

[1753] It's, it doesn't penetrate.

[1754] Okay.

[1755] Rebuttal.

[1756] Okay.

[1757] There's another reality, too, which is like, these parents made you this thing in this situation made you this thing.

[1758] And you might go, well, that was unfair.

[1759] I don't think I really am this person who's terrified all the time and scared of everything, right?

[1760] Yeah.

[1761] And so you go, I'm picking as of tomorrow.

[1762] Yeah.

[1763] So that part, you know, what was real, what wasn't, I don't know.

[1764] You could look at it as like, no, the personas who I am in this, all these crazy situations and circumstances and this mean high school made me this other thing.

[1765] Yeah.

[1766] And really, I'm this thing.

[1767] Watch.

[1768] Yeah.

[1769] And I love that.

[1770] To me, that's getting in touch with your true self or bettering yourself or whatever.

[1771] And it's all slippery.

[1772] They're all right next to each other.

[1773] They are.

[1774] So it's hard to know.

[1775] And I guess it's choice to choice, person to person, whether it's positive or negative.

[1776] It's all in the mix.

[1777] Yeah, I think probably the relevant piece is if the persona fits nicely with the rest of you in your like interpersonal relationships and with your family and your just private life.

[1778] Or if it's incongruous with that.

[1779] you have to somehow make peace with you're this person over there and you're this person here.

[1780] It's fraudulence.

[1781] Yeah.

[1782] And at the same time, that two might be fine.

[1783] Like a lot of comedians are not funny, right?

[1784] They're depressed.

[1785] Yeah, yeah.

[1786] So they have a persona on camera on stage and that at home, they're shy and quiet.

[1787] And that is fine with them.

[1788] Yeah.

[1789] All of it's, it's, it's yummy.

[1790] Yummy submarines do what?

[1791] I wish you guys had tubbies down south.

[1792] Well, it's the best jingle.

[1793] He goes, tubby's submarines, ooh, what?

[1794] Tubby's submarines, ooh, there's no stopping once tubby starts hopping.

[1795] Tubby's submarines.

[1796] Isn't it a sub sandwich place?

[1797] Submarine sandwich place.

[1798] In fact, I think my ex -girlfriend's uncle invented Tubby.

[1799] I think he's Mr. Tubby.

[1800] Okay.

[1801] Okay, for real.

[1802] So it was just like one.

[1803] No, no, there's a chain.

[1804] It's all over Michigan.

[1805] Tubbies.

[1806] Yes.

[1807] Good for him.

[1808] And Tubby sauce is.

[1809] delicious.

[1810] Is it still around?

[1811] It's in our fridge.

[1812] Every time Brooke comes out, Kristen says to her, make sure you grab some tubbies.

[1813] What is it?

[1814] What is Brooke bringing a sauce?

[1815] Yeah, tubby's tubmarine sauce.

[1816] It's like kind of an Italian dressing.

[1817] Oh.

[1818] Yeah.

[1819] But proprietary and special and unique just to tubbies tub marines.

[1820] Tubbson sandwiches.

[1821] Why didn't we have that when we were in Michigan?

[1822] Now I'm, I'm feeling like I lost.

[1823] The tub marine sauce is in our fridge.

[1824] I know, but that's not the whole sandwich.

[1825] And by the way, I think my ex -girlfriend's uncle actually invented Hungry Howie's pizza, which was a big chain.

[1826] Okay.

[1827] Yeah.

[1828] I don't know what's real anymore.

[1829] No, those are both real restaurants.

[1830] Do you like the sound of that, Hungry Howies?

[1831] Yeah.

[1832] Are you making it up?

[1833] No, Hungry Howies is a real manipulative right now or something.

[1834] I promise you hungry howies and tubby -tub marines are real restaurants.

[1835] There's a Hungry Howies in Glendale.

[1836] Holy Howie.

[1837] Home of the original flavored crust pizza.

[1838] That's right.

[1839] Oh, my God.

[1840] It made its way to Los Angeles?

[1841] Congratulations, ex -girlfriend's uncle.

[1842] He made both of those?

[1843] No, I think I must be imagining that he had anything to do with submarines.

[1844] So, legal, had some problems with the poster you did for hungry howies.

[1845] Impossible.

[1846] You claim that free -flavored crust cures baldness.

[1847] Look at the shag.

[1848] The preferred pizza of Cleopatra?

[1849] Prove me wrong, legal.

[1850] And what's this?

[1851] It's less of Feefew Feefew 10 bucks to feed the fam and meal deals that won't burn your budget Now that's an idea Hungry Howies I feel like you wrote that commercial Incredible Pizza Dales Two or 15 It was almost like the Carl's Jr. guy Who was two cool burgers fries Oh yeah And kick.

[1852] Don't bother me. I'm eating.

[1853] And I want to kill that guy.

[1854] Yep.

[1855] Like, you're too cool to eat hamburgers?

[1856] And then?

[1857] Wait, you wanted me to say the sketch I made?

[1858] Yep.

[1859] Okay, so then my friend Josh, Nathan and I, we made a fake Carl's Juniors commercial.

[1860] I might have that on my computer, by the way.

[1861] Your sketch?

[1862] I might.

[1863] Oh.

[1864] Let's just see.

[1865] Yeah.

[1866] And then we could also post it.

[1867] Oh, geez.

[1868] I'd be afraid.

[1869] My favorite thing was making fake commercials.

[1870] Love fake commercials.

[1871] Videos.

[1872] Last place I'll check.

[1873] TV.

[1874] I can't believe it's, I can't imagine it's there, but, uh, oh, you know, it might be here.

[1875] It's store, library, movies.

[1876] I apologize.

[1877] Oh, my.

[1878] Gosh.

[1879] Here it is.

[1880] Oh, my God.

[1881] Okay.

[1882] Oh, my God.

[1883] Oh, my God.

[1884] Burger.

[1885] Cetsups on the ground.

[1886] Fries.

[1887] The kick.

[1888] This is Josh.

[1889] Fries.

[1890] Metallic L .P. Kick.

[1891] Boot.

[1892] Firm.

[1893] Metallica LP, BMX trough.

[1894] It's laboriously long, isn't it?

[1895] Oh, my God.

[1896] There's only one left.

[1897] Fries.

[1898] Metallica LP, BMX Trouf, Trans -A, Miniature.

[1899] New Coke.

[1900] That's what it was.

[1901] We thought the guy was like, basic.

[1902] trying to burn you by telling you what he's doing.

[1903] Yeah, that's hilarious.

[1904] It's worth seeing, so we'll probably post it.

[1905] Oh, will we?

[1906] That's so funny.

[1907] I did this one, too.

[1908] It's completely visual, but I was obsessed with those or gel commercials.

[1909] Oh, uh -huh.

[1910] Because it would fix the people's tooth pain in one second.

[1911] Oh.

[1912] I don't know if you remember those commercials, but it was me everywhere eating, and now I'd go like, ah, and I grab the or gel.

[1913] I'll be like, wait, let me see it.

[1914] I was bummed.

[1915] It's not on here because that's the one actually I would have wanted you to see.

[1916] Yeah, it was just about how quickly you felt better.

[1917] Oh, boy.

[1918] Bear here.

[1919] Nice.

[1920] Love you.

[1921] Love you.

[1922] And I coat.

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