S15 E3: [Alice + John + Naomi] You Wouldn't Believe It

[0] Wondry Plus subscribers can listen to something was wrong early and ad -free right now.

[1] Join Wondry Plus in the Wondry app or on Apple Podcasts.

[2] I'm Dan Tversky.

[3] In 2011, something strange began to happen at a high school in upstate New York.

[4] A mystery illness, bizarre symptoms, and spreading fast.

[5] What's the answer?

[6] And what do you do if they tell you it's all in your head?

[7] Hysterical.

[8] A new podcast from Wondry and Pineapple Street Studios.

[9] Binge all episodes of hysterical early and ad -free on Wondery Plus.

[10] Something was wrong is intended for mature audiences, as it discusses topics that can be upsetting, such as emotional, physical, and sexual violence.

[11] Content warnings for each episode and confidential and free resources for survivors can be found in the episode notes.

[12] Some survivor names have been changed for anonymity purposes.

[13] pseudonyms are given to minors in these stories for their privacy and protection.

[14] Testimony shared by guests on this show is their own and does not necessarily reflect the views of myself, broken cycle media, or wondering.

[15] The podcast or any linked materials should not be construed as medical advice, nor is the information a substitute for professional expertise or treatment.

[16] All persons are considered innocent and less proven guilty in a court of law.

[17] Thank you so much for listening.

[18] Hello.

[19] My name is John and I worked as a colleague of Naomi's for six years.

[20] We had a good working relationship.

[21] She was extremely capable in a demanding environment.

[22] And I think that we sort of synergized well.

[23] Anyway, to that effect, Naomi is in a work context.

[24] There's sort of a professional facade there.

[25] I think Naomi has amusingly related a lot of stories I know her really well at this point so I sort of know what's going on in the background when she behaves a certain way she would probably say that she feels some imposterous syndrome somewhat but I would say she was one of the more skilled people that I've ever worked with in the role that she did where you do need to understand people and their mental health concerns and so on you need to feel to navigate that you need to sort of help with the strategy and stuff with the individuals.

[26] She's very capable of that.

[27] Outside of her competence, she also worked really fast and she could do multiple things at once.

[28] A lot of jobs would get resolved really, really quickly.

[29] But I would say she also has this tremendous sense of humor.

[30] She's certainly capable of having a wildly inappropriate sense of humor.

[31] And I think that when you work with people with mental health concerns, that is sort of a coping that develops.

[32] And it's certainly not that she doesn't care about people.

[33] she really does.

[34] She's very good -humored and very self -deprecating.

[35] Naomi was very well -liked, had a great sense of humor, but sort of kept a leash on it somewhat, and also just was really competent and fast.

[36] That's how I would describe Naomi.

[37] Hi, my name is Naomi, and I met Karina a few years ago when I was working at an agency that provided therapeutic supports for individuals in our community.

[38] Karina came on as a therapist.

[39] and I was working there as a receptionist.

[40] When I first met her, she's beautiful, tall, carried herself really well.

[41] I was really surprised that somebody so bubbly could really tone it down.

[42] I was always very curious how she could tone it down in the therapy session.

[43] We were both in the interview when we interviewed Karina.

[44] There were two candidates in the final round of the interviews.

[45] Neither candidates seemed perfect, but they both seemed decent.

[46] I realize as I tell the story that, and this is going to be true throughout the story, that there are all kinds of things that I think would constitute red flags in an employee that you would have or a coworker that you would have.

[47] And as I look back with hindsight, a lot of things about what was wrong were really, really obvious.

[48] It's a little bit embarrassing to go through and realize that in the moment, I didn't realize what was going on, even though the signs were all there.

[49] But that's just the truth.

[50] Even though there was a lot of evidence, it took us quite a long time, I think because it was a pretty demanding, stressful environment.

[51] That was probably one of the main reasons.

[52] We maybe overlooked these things.

[53] We certainly needed the human resources at the time.

[54] Anyway, and that goes right back to the interview.

[55] So in the interview that we had, I would say it was obvious that Karina was pretty stressed.

[56] I would even say that, oh, you know what, there would seem to be some anxiety in this person, but not such that I would totally rule them out as a good co -worker.

[57] In the interview, I did sort of sense that stress that you get off some people.

[58] I might have assessed that they were the sort of person that has anxiety but still performs well.

[59] There's many of those in the world.

[60] Karina started and everybody in the office loved her.

[61] She was super cool.

[62] She's talking about she's from a different part of the country.

[63] She had a lot of clients.

[64] This agency had a lot of very educated people working for it.

[65] She was sweet.

[66] Karina, she's young.

[67] She's in her 20s.

[68] Tall, beautiful, just really bubbly, has lots of friends, is very confident.

[69] A few weeks after she started at the agency, Steve, the man who owned the agency came over and told me that I needed to cancel all of Karina's appointments for the day because he got a call that she was walking to work and she got hit by a car like a slow driving car and she fractured her arm.

[70] I contacted all of her clients for the week and I canceled her appointments.

[71] I saw her about a week later and she came in and her arm was in a bandage.

[72] And I helped her carry things.

[73] She was coming into the building.

[74] And I was like, oh, don't carry that.

[75] I got this.

[76] She was really nice.

[77] She was like, thank you.

[78] And I brought them to her office.

[79] And for a while after that, she would miss work for little things.

[80] And I always thought that she had a really poor work ethic because this might sound kind of bad, but she came from a really well -off family.

[81] And I thought like, oh, okay, she's never really had to like work, work.

[82] I thought she had this very laissez -faire work ethic.

[83] It was actually a few months after she started at the agency that I was working at.

[84] We went out for drinks with some colleagues of mine.

[85] It was really fun.

[86] We were chatting and it was kind of the first time that her and I hung out one -on -one.

[87] As the night's going on, my colleagues leave and she was like, hey, would you want to stay for another drink and just chat because it's nice talking to you.

[88] I was like, sure.

[89] So we sat and we ordered another drink.

[90] she was talking to me. I know that her background, her family is quite well off.

[91] They live in another part of the country.

[92] Parents or fathers in finance.

[93] I grew up kind of poor, single mom who struggled, and so that's the life that I don't really understand.

[94] I'm a bit more standoffish with people like that because sometimes I'm like, you just don't get it.

[95] You've had everything sort of handed to you.

[96] It was interesting because when we were at the bar, she was talking to me about how, although her parents are really well off, she paid for her school and she went to this private university that cost quite a bit of money, but she assured me she took out student loans and she was paying it off and her parents don't give her anything.

[97] And I was like, oh, cool.

[98] So I was like, you get this.

[99] You're like me kind of because I've never really received a handout and, you know, I have student loans that I'm still paying back as we speak.

[100] She was telling me that a few years earlier, she was in a ski town, a couple of states over, and she didn't have anywhere to stay.

[101] And she told me, at nighttime, she would sneak into this hotel in the ski town, and she would sneak into the banquet hall, and she would sleep underneath the tables in the banquet hall because she didn't have any money.

[102] I thought that was so funny, because that is something I would have done.

[103] And I went on this big trip when I was younger and slept outside because I had no money.

[104] And it was very similar to something that I would have done.

[105] I thought it was so funny.

[106] She was talking to me that night about how another time she was tree planting and she would sleep in a tent, basically on the side of the road.

[107] And then in the morning, she would hide her things and then go back up and tree plant.

[108] I just thought, oh my gosh, okay, you're not this rich girl from this really expensive city.

[109] You know, you get it.

[110] That was the night that I was like, okay, you're not who I thought.

[111] It was so funny because that night she told me when I first met you, I really didn't think that you liked me. I thought you thought I was such a bitch.

[112] You're really cool and you were just really standoffish.

[113] And I was like, yeah, well, I thought you were this rich girl.

[114] And I was like, oh, like, I don't know.

[115] You're actually pretty funny.

[116] The stuff that you're doing or that you did is similar to what I would do.

[117] That's awesome.

[118] That was the night that really kind of solidified our friendship moving forward.

[119] Do you feel like in hindsight that she was reading you and giving those anecdotes to appeal to you and win you over?

[120] 100 ,000 percent.

[121] This was the beginning.

[122] She had months to figure me out and she did.

[123] As time went on, we would hang out at work.

[124] We were more friendly.

[125] I would see her in the reception area and we would chat and gossip, talk about what we did on the weekend.

[126] She would tell me about her dating life.

[127] We became friends.

[128] We're hanging out.

[129] We're going to the gym together a couple times.

[130] We've gone out for drinks a few times.

[131] She's met a couple of my friends.

[132] And a few weeks after we hung out at the bar, I go to a football game.

[133] And at this football game, I'm introduced to her friends, Alice and Quora, and a few others.

[134] Hi, I am Alice.

[135] I met Naomi at a game.

[136] My first impressions of her were...

[137] She came across as a no -bullshit person, which I really value.

[138] It was kind of refreshing, really personable.

[139] We clicked from there.

[140] She was working with Karina, and then Karina at the time was my roommate.

[141] They're people who went to graduate school with her.

[142] We're all chatting and grabbing a drink before the game.

[143] We go to the game and it was really fun and her friends were really fun.

[144] I was super stoked.

[145] I met up with them one more time and it was super cool.

[146] I thought they were really nice.

[147] Originally, I was actually at grad school with Karina.

[148] So we did our master's together.

[149] We weren't super close.

[150] Our friend groups were friendly with each other.

[151] We probably hung out a couple times.

[152] She was in a couple of my classes.

[153] I didn't know her super well.

[154] Then my roommate, who was also a friend at the time, was moving in with her partner.

[155] So I was kind of under a little bit of time pressure to fill an empty room in my apartment.

[156] And I couldn't afford the rent on my own.

[157] So it was a quick decision.

[158] I didn't want to live with a stranger.

[159] Karina was looking for a place as well.

[160] So the timing lined up and she moved in.

[161] I have a bit of a story for this.

[162] I was upstairs.

[163] Our rooms were upstairs in the kitchen and living room.

[164] We're on the main floor.

[165] She had moved in the day before.

[166] So we were going to, I think, order pizza and just have dinner together.

[167] Chat gets to know each other more.

[168] I'm walking down the stairs and I have a direct line of view right to the sink.

[169] And I had this old shitty bottle of vodka that had been there on my bar cart thing for a long time.

[170] I'd never opened it.

[171] And I saw Karina standing at the sink.

[172] filling it with water and I paused on the stairs and I looked at her and I was shocked first.

[173] That was my initial kind of response and that I walked in the rest of the stairs and I think I actually laughed first because I couldn't believe what I was seeing.

[174] I said her name or maybe she turned around when I laughed and we had this interaction of like what are you doing and I don't care about the bottle.

[175] You could have opened it and had whatever and you replaced it.

[176] You don't need to fill it with water and hide.

[177] That was day two, our first evening together.

[178] It would become this whole thing.

[179] I obviously was not aware that it was as big of an issue as it became, but that was my first warning was night two.

[180] I think she said, like, oh my God, I'm so sorry.

[181] I was so worried what you would think.

[182] I don't know if it was shame or anxiety or a wrong.

[183] Whatever, and I clarified, it's fine.

[184] You could just replace it.

[185] It was more about the attempt to hide it and ruin the rest of the bottle.

[186] We talked about it, and I told her what I would have wanted, and she was receptive.

[187] We ate pizza and hung out the rest of the night, but it set the tone.

[188] Karina was planning a hangout one night, and I was like, oh, invite Alice and Cora.

[189] They were fun.

[190] And she was telling me, I don't know, Alice and Cora, they're kind of weird.

[191] And I was like, what do you mean weird?

[192] And she was like, they're just like come from really well -off families.

[193] They're pretty stuck up.

[194] Anytime I meet my friends for like a happy hour drink, they scoff at me because that's really low class.

[195] They only drink coffee and they're stuck up.

[196] I was like, ooh, I don't like that.

[197] I don't like stuck up girls.

[198] That's the worst.

[199] We've all been to high school.

[200] Nobody likes the bitchy girl, that stereotypical bitchy girl.

[201] I was like, oh, I didn't know that.

[202] I didn't get that vibe from them.

[203] So I was like, okay, don't invite them.

[204] I love True Crime podcast.

[205] I actually pay for Wondery Plus.

[206] I subscribe.

[207] I have a couple of patrons that I'm working with.

[208] So she knew that about me. And she was like, hey, do you want to hear something that's like pretty fucked up?

[209] And I was like, always.

[210] She was like, so Alice, she grew up in this really weird cult in this small town, like an hour or two away from the city that we live.

[211] I was like, what?

[212] She grew up in a cult.

[213] And she was like, yeah, she grew up in a cult.

[214] It's like this super religious weird thing.

[215] It was interesting.

[216] We've chatted about it.

[217] And I was like, that's so weird.

[218] I hope she's good.

[219] It was going on this theme that she came and grew up in this weird religious cult.

[220] And she's now really stuck up and only drinks coffee and judges everybody.

[221] And I was like, okay, that makes sense.

[222] I guess that's weird, whatever.

[223] And so I didn't really see them.

[224] them again, those girls.

[225] The triangulation happened quite quickly, but from what I can remember, quite a subtle way.

[226] So little comments and little stories started to get dropped.

[227] She really played off of a bit of a classist stigma type place.

[228] She really tended to focus on the differences, and these were made up differences, right?

[229] She created these narratives for our group of friends versus Naomi.

[230] An example would be that Karina and Naomi would often go for beer and for drinks and in the city that we were in.

[231] That's a lot of the culture and there's great breweries and that's what we do.

[232] Like we hang out that way.

[233] So she started to create these narratives that for myself and our group of friends, we only drank coffee and didn't drink beer and we're kind of snobby and rich as extreme and classist as that.

[234] And then on Naomi's side, it was we go for drinks and we drink beer and we do adventure type stuff.

[235] It was this harsh separation.

[236] And I think she would play the other off of each other.

[237] Like, oh, they're this way, you won't like them.

[238] And she's this way, you won't like her in a way that was completely false.

[239] Karina was with me, at least.

[240] she was always incredibly validating.

[241] She was very good at making whoever was in front of her feel very heard and feel very seen.

[242] It didn't ever feel like I think how you would typically experience this kind of mean girl or catty dynamic.

[243] It felt more looking back now, if she was talking about the other, it felt like she genuinely wanted to work through something.

[244] And maybe that's, you know, you get a bunch of things.

[245] therapist together and maybe we hold it that way.

[246] Maybe we respond to each other that way.

[247] The confusing part, looking back on it, was that it was so calculated and it was so intentional that it was hard to brush off gossip or caddiness.

[248] There was this possessiveness and even further, I think she had to very quickly separate people in her life to protect the lies that she had told.

[249] I don't think Naomi and us could have coexisted because the lies would have come out right away.

[250] I think she used the skill she had of validating and listening and making you feel so seen and so heard, assuming that she was also probably sharing from that place.

[251] I just kind of bought it because I don't walk around my life, assuming that people are that calculated and that controlling.

[252] Scammers are best known for living the high life until they're forced to trade it all in for handcuffs and an orange jumpsuit once they're finally caught.

[253] I'm Sachi Cole.

[254] And I'm Sarah Haggy.

[255] And we're the host of scam influencers, a weekly podcast from Wondery that takes you along the twists and turns of some of the most infamous scams of all time, the impact on victims and what's left once the facade falls away.

[256] We've covered stories like a Shark Tank certified entrepreneur who left the show with an investment, but soon faced mounting bill.

[257] an active lawsuit followed by Larry King and no real product to push.

[258] He then began to prey on vulnerable women instead, selling the idea of a future together while stealing from them behind their backs.

[259] To the infamous scams of Real Housewives stars like Teresa Judice, what should have proven to be a major downfall only seemed to solidify her place in the Real Housewives Hall of Fame.

[260] Follow Scamfluencers on the Wondry app or wherever you get your podcasts.

[261] You can listen to Scamfluencers early and ad -free right now on Wondry Plus.

[262] I'm Dan Tibersky.

[263] In 2011, something strange began to happen at the high school in Leroy, New York.

[264] I was like at my locker and she came up to me and she was like stuttering super bad.

[265] I'm like, stop fucking around.

[266] She's like, I can't.

[267] A mystery illness, bizarre symptoms and spreading fast.

[268] It's like doubling and tripling and it's all these girls.

[269] With a diagnosis, the state tried to keep on the down low.

[270] Everybody thought I was holding something back.

[271] Well, you were holding something back.

[272] Intentionally.

[273] Yeah, yeah.

[274] Well, yeah.

[275] No, it's hysteria.

[276] It's all in your head.

[277] It's not physical.

[278] Oh, my gosh, you're exaggerating.

[279] Is this the largest mass hysteria since the witches of Salem?

[280] Or is it something else entirely?

[281] Something's wrong here.

[282] Something's not right.

[283] Leroy was the new date line and everyone was trying to solve the murder.

[284] A new limited series from Wondery and Pineapple Street Studios, Hysterical.

[285] Follow Hysterical on the Wondery app or wherever you get your podcasts.

[286] You can binge all episodes of Histerical early and ad -free right now by joining Wondry Plus.

[287] A few months later, Karina, she's coming to work.

[288] She's had a few days off for little things.

[289] But all in all, like, we're hanging out.

[290] She's coming to my baseball games.

[291] She's coming to my girls' night at my aunt's house.

[292] We're having a great time.

[293] We hired a personal trainer.

[294] We're going personal training three days a week after work.

[295] It's great.

[296] At three in the morning one day, she texted me. My dad had a heart attack.

[297] I'm frantically packing.

[298] I need to fly home to support my family.

[299] I don't know how my dad's doing.

[300] And I was like, oh my gosh, get out of here, go like, I'm so sorry.

[301] And so she flies back home.

[302] She would text me updates and we'd chat on the phone because by this time, I would say we're very close friends, almost best friend status.

[303] She would call and she's giving me updates.

[304] Her family has this massive house.

[305] And she would be like, oh, we're just about to play pool.

[306] in the games room.

[307] She would send me pictures of the wine cellar, and she's like, the nice thing about being home is I can raid my mom's wine cellar.

[308] Her dad at this point was doing well.

[309] He was recovering.

[310] He was back home.

[311] He needed to just take it easy.

[312] So I was like, okay, that's great.

[313] She was in her hometown for about a week.

[314] For that week, I canceled her clients.

[315] She came home, and about a month later, after that, she called me and left me a voicemail saying that her mom woke up around 3 a .m. and found her dad unconscious in the bathroom.

[316] And I was like, oh my gosh, that's so scary.

[317] Your dad just had a heart attack.

[318] And a month later, he's had a second heart attack.

[319] And he collapsed in the bathroom, which is so dangerous because there's like porcelain everywhere.

[320] She flew home.

[321] We would talk.

[322] I'd ask her how she's doing.

[323] She was really shaken up.

[324] It was really scary for her.

[325] She was telling me how stubborn he was.

[326] He wanted to still complete this five -mile run that he had signed up for.

[327] And she was like, constantly having to tell him to take it easy and I'll do the cooking, dad take it easy.

[328] But he made it through and she came home and it's just like one thing after another, after another, after another of like the most insane stories.

[329] She's a young person who seemed reasonably bright.

[330] And as you'll learn, had this really tremendous history of bad things happening.

[331] She did a pretty good job of eliciting sympathy for herself through these things that she was going through.

[332] She seemed to really suffer from them.

[333] She presented anxiety, and she told these stories that were sympathetic about bad things that happened to her.

[334] But like in between, we were hanging out.

[335] We're going to the gym.

[336] She's coming to the girls' nights.

[337] A few months later, we're hanging out.

[338] We're having a great time.

[339] We're camping, doing some really great things, and we're seeing each other at work.

[340] We've become friends there, and everyone really loves her.

[341] there in the office.

[342] One day she's at work and she comes over to a group of us.

[343] My desk, the reception area, was a bit of a hub for the office.

[344] She looks visibly upset and she says that she just got off the phone with her parents and her grandparents were in a car accident and she needed to fly back because they both died.

[345] And we were shocked.

[346] That's horrific to have.

[347] To have, have both grandparents pass away and a freak car accident is pretty devastating.

[348] We were all gobsmacked and we all gave her a hug.

[349] She was crying and she was like, I just need to leave and we're like, of course, leave.

[350] I would clear her schedule.

[351] She flew home for the funeral and she would call me regularly and she was just so sad.

[352] She was talking to me. The funeral went well.

[353] She was comforted that they died together.

[354] She was telling me, like, at least it was fast and they went together.

[355] I have a bit of comfort in that.

[356] She was describing the dress that she wore to the funeral and what it was like.

[357] I was like, man, I'm so sorry.

[358] You've had such a shit time.

[359] Like, catch a break, Karina.

[360] When she came home, we were walking home together because we lived close by each other and the walk was good exercise after we finished with the gym.

[361] So we would often walk to where we would separate or fork off from each other.

[362] I will never forget this because she turned to me as we were walking and she said, do you want to know how they died?

[363] And I was like, oh, okay, um, sure.

[364] In my head, I'm like, if you need to talk about it, of course.

[365] So I was like, sure, if you want to let me know, that's okay.

[366] I assumed maybe your granddad had a medical emergency, like a stroke or something and lost control of the car.

[367] That's what I said to her.

[368] And she, I will never forget this.

[369] She was walking and she said, yeah, my granddad had a heart attack at the wheel, lost control of the car, and it flipped.

[370] She turned to me and looked me in the eyes and said, and it snapped my grandmother's neck.

[371] And I was like, okay.

[372] I was not expecting that.

[373] I was like, I'm so sorry.

[374] That's horrific.

[375] To be honest, I didn't really know what to say.

[376] I just was like, oh, man, I'm so sorry.

[377] That's so awful.

[378] And we continued walking and talking about it.

[379] And yeah, it was pretty wild.

[380] It was pretty heavy.

[381] I felt really bad for her.

[382] And yeah, it was like a lot.

[383] One morning, me and Karina were going to meet at the gym to do a morning workout with our personal trainer.

[384] It was a weekend.

[385] I'm getting ready to work out.

[386] I'm chatting with the personal trainer.

[387] It comes to our time.

[388] And I was like, oh, she's not here.

[389] I was texting her.

[390] Yeah, are you on your way?

[391] We're getting into the hour, the personal training hour.

[392] She wasn't getting back to me. I tried to call her.

[393] And so my personal trainer was like, okay, well, how about we just do like a solo thing?

[394] And if she shows up, I can always add more activities for you to do.

[395] Okay, cool.

[396] I do the training session.

[397] I'm a bit confused because it's quite expensive to have a personal trainer.

[398] Did she sleep in?

[399] I don't understand.

[400] I checked my phone and she texts me. And she's like, I'm so sorry.

[401] Alice's dad died.

[402] I had to drive her to the small town that she lives.

[403] She is distraught.

[404] So I had to take her because she couldn't drive that far.

[405] And I was like, oh my gosh.

[406] She was like, yeah, I just dropped her off.

[407] But because she is part of this religion cult, she wasn't allowed to be part of the funeral.

[408] So she said, I'm going to drive back.

[409] And whenever Alice is ready to come home, I will go and pick her up.

[410] I felt bad for Alice.

[411] I didn't have the nicest picture of her in my head, but that's hard losing a parent.

[412] I work in an agency with really educated people.

[413] They all are therapists.

[414] Her friends, Alice and Cora, they're all therapists.

[415] They've all gone to graduate school.

[416] Everybody I work with has gone to graduate school.

[417] I was kind of like, wow, Karina, you really really.

[418] really can't catch a break.

[419] There's so many things happening.

[420] And I would look to my colleagues and they didn't question it at all.

[421] And so I think with my imposter syndrome, it really solidified this is normal.

[422] I just kept going with it and didn't question it as much as I would have.

[423] A few months later, so we've been friends for about a year now.

[424] We were going to the beach one day.

[425] We were walking down the hill and she was telling me, hey, you know, like those scars on my back.

[426] I was like, yeah?

[427] And she's like, yeah, well, I've had surgery on my kidneys.

[428] I've had some weird kidney issues throughout my life.

[429] And I need to go in and get some keyhole surgery to remove some scar tissue that they found.

[430] A few weeks later, I saw her and she had some bandages on her back and a medical bracelet.

[431] I was like, how did it go?

[432] and she was like, it was actually, it was pretty good.

[433] It went well.

[434] She recovered.

[435] And a few weeks later, again, we're at the gym.

[436] I got obsessed with protein powder.

[437] I had all these supplements.

[438] And one of the supplements that I was taking was creatine because I was like, yeah, I'm doing this.

[439] I'm going to get so jacked.

[440] I was telling her about it.

[441] I was like, do you want some?

[442] She's like, sure, because I would bring her protein powder with me and we'd have friendship protein shakes when we would walk home.

[443] At one point, I was like, yo, oh, you got to get that creatine dude.

[444] And she's like, okay, can I have someone?

[445] I was like, yeah, because of course I have this giant tub of creatine powder that I've never going to go through.

[446] So I bring her this large bag of croutine.

[447] And I was like, you only need the tiniest amount.

[448] And then all of a sudden, one day I saw her, she did not look good.

[449] I was like, yo, are you good?

[450] Are you okay?

[451] She's like, no, I have this kidney infection.

[452] I had to go to the hospital to get IV antibiotics.

[453] And I was like, oh my gosh, that's so crazy.

[454] Are you okay?

[455] And she's like, I think it was because of the creatine.

[456] I took too much creatine.

[457] And we laughed about it at the time because we would always joke at the gym about becoming so jacked that I would like carry my boyfriend through the threshold of our apartment.

[458] We were going to the beach one day.

[459] And she was like, oh, I just got out from getting my second round of IV antibiotics.

[460] I need to go two more times.

[461] And I was like, oh, man. I hope you're good.

[462] She didn't look good.

[463] She was shaking.

[464] She was sweating.

[465] She had a medical bracelet from the hospital on.

[466] Just to give you a bit of context, too, in terms of we live together.

[467] We had all just graduated, right?

[468] So we were at the beginning of a new career that I found quite challenging to find my place in the therapy world, learn very new boundaries, learn how to manage, stepping into that role, but finding some balance.

[469] with my personal life.

[470] I was in a new relationship and would spend quite a bit of time out of the apartment.

[471] There was a lot of time apart.

[472] And then we would touch down on some evenings and have dinner or go out.

[473] But there was a lot of time in between where I'd be out for the weekend or I wouldn't see her for a couple days just with our schedules.

[474] A lot could get under the radar because I wasn't as present.

[475] How that intensified was I started.

[476] finding little empty dime bags around the apartment, whether it be in the book that she had let me borrow or under the kitchen table, and no judgment towards people that use drugs at all, honestly.

[477] My concern was that is this behavior going on and you're also in this role of being a therapist and how can these things coexist with our set of ethics of basically do as little harm as part.

[478] possible.

[479] There's nuance here, right?

[480] Like we are both human and there's this expectation that we continue to do our own work and we show up in the best way that's available.

[481] There's a lot of intersections there and access to help is really complicated.

[482] But it was this combination of things drinking and we'd find these little bags.

[483] It was some conversations.

[484] I tried to set boundaries around it in terms of how it affected me and concern I had about the role that she was in.

[485] Her family wasn't from the state that we were living in either.

[486] So that made it more complicated.

[487] Ultimately, I think there was a bunch of lies about not being in treatment, even though the place was under my name.

[488] So it was my lease.

[489] And I said with what's going on and what you're doing.

[490] I don't want to live with you if this is not being at least treated, right?

[491] I definitely understand the complexity of working through some of this and the practicality of what that looks like in terms of recovery or harm reduction.

[492] But yeah, it continued.

[493] And I think it got sneakier and sneakier.

[494] Sometimes I would leave early for work in the morning.

[495] One morning, her schedule was even earlier than mine.

[496] So she would get up, go to work.

[497] I would get ready and then go to work.

[498] I forgot something, maybe my phone or something like that back in the apartment.

[499] So I'm walking up the stairs and standing on the other side of the door and I hear this rustling going on.

[500] I unlock open and she is laying on the couch in the living room.

[501] And it was this moment of, and she kind of looked shocked and looked caught.

[502] Ultimately, it was that she had hid out in her room that morning while I was getting ready and wanted me to think that she was at work, but she really wanted.

[503] wasn't.

[504] And I'd kind of caught her in something.

[505] There was a lot of times where I would assume that she wasn't in the apartment because her door would be shut and the lights would be off.

[506] We respected each other's space.

[507] At least I thought that, you know, I'm not going to go into your room and rummage through all your personal shit.

[508] But really, she'd be hiding out there.

[509] I don't know what she was doing with the lights out and the door closed.

[510] And she would be very, very quiet.

[511] But then something would happen and she would actually be home, missing work.

[512] One of the things we would talk about here, chilling, where you would have a glass of wine and she would be talking about her relationships.

[513] They've always been like failed relationships.

[514] Nothing's really ever taken off.

[515] She was telling me about this guy that she was dating and she really liked him.

[516] And she had dated other guys.

[517] But at this point in time, she was dating this guy and she wanted to be in a serious committed relationship so bad.

[518] It wasn't working out, but this one guy she was with, one day, she was so upset.

[519] And she told me, you know, that guy I'm seeing, he just broke up with me. And I was like, oh, really?

[520] What?

[521] That sucks.

[522] What happened?

[523] And she's like, Naomi, it's brutal.

[524] It's so brutal.

[525] I feel like, shit.

[526] And I was like, oh, my gosh, what happened?

[527] Girl, tell me what happened.

[528] She was like, well, basically, we were having sex, and after he finished, he literally just rolled over and was like, get the fuck out of my house and threw her clothes at her and shoved her out the door.

[529] And she was like, I barely dressed.

[530] I was humiliated.

[531] It was so awful.

[532] And I will always remember her slumped over this table that we were sitting at, defeated.

[533] She just looked so defeated.

[534] And I was like, first of all, fuck that guy.

[535] Second of all, we're going out.

[536] The good friend I am, I organized this dinner and drinks.

[537] We were going from bar to bar chatting, and I was like, you're the best, hyping her up because she felt so bad about herself and it was really sad.

[538] We ended up at this really cute tapus restaurant in like a trendy kind of part of town.

[539] We ordered dinner and drinks and we were chilling and she was happy.

[540] She wasn't super wasted.

[541] at one point in the dinner, she needed to get up and use the bathroom where we were sitting.

[542] There wasn't much space between where she needed to get out and where I was sitting.

[543] There was about just over a foot.

[544] And so as she was getting up, she was squeezing her way through the table next to me and my chair.

[545] And I remember looking up to give that, like, do you have enough space?

[546] You good?

[547] and as I looked up at her, she grabbed my face and kissed me and put her tongue in my mouth.

[548] So gnarly.

[549] I, one, shocked.

[550] Two, viscerally still to this day, I'm so grossed out.

[551] Three, I was so grossed out in the moment.

[552] Four, in that moment, I was like, I don't know what to do.

[553] I work with her.

[554] She is well respected.

[555] I felt that was such a overstep of boundaries.

[556] There was never, ever any talk about, there was never any indication that is something that I wanted to happen.

[557] I was in a very serious committed relationship with my now husband.

[558] And there was not one time that that was ever conveyed.

[559] still even thinking about it.

[560] It grosses me out.

[561] It was such a violation.

[562] She was in the bathroom and I was stunned at the table.

[563] I embarrassed.

[564] I called the waitress over.

[565] I paid the bill.

[566] She came out.

[567] Like nothing happened.

[568] Cool, calm.

[569] And I was like, we need to leave.

[570] I got outside.

[571] Thankfully, there was a taxi right there.

[572] I hailed it.

[573] She got in.

[574] I handed the driver 20 bucks and gave her where she lives.

[575] The cab drove off.

[576] and I stood on the street, like, what the fuck just happened?

[577] I texted my boyfriend, and I was like, hey, I need to talk to you when I get home.

[578] I got in my own cab.

[579] I was like, what does this mean?

[580] I work with this person.

[581] Everybody loves her.

[582] I remember getting home and I come in, and I didn't really know what to say, but my partner, I was like, hey, I need to tell you something that's really fucked up.

[583] And he was like, what?

[584] I was like, no, seriously, this is really fucked up.

[585] And he was like, just tell me. And I was like, Karina made out with me at dinner tonight.

[586] I was pretty shocked, but now I understand the reaction because of his history of being cheated on.

[587] He was really upset.

[588] At first, he was upset with me. And I think that's something that compounded still to this day how I feel about it.

[589] Obviously, victims of abuse, they have some guilt.

[590] They feel guilty sometimes.

[591] I really felt in that moment that it was my fault.

[592] He was like, you need to go to work and you need to tell Steve.

[593] I was like, I don't know if I can do that.

[594] Everybody loves her.

[595] What if they don't believe me?

[596] Like, I can't even talk about this right now.

[597] I need to go to bed.

[598] I wake up in the morning and I feel like shit.

[599] I feel so bad.

[600] And she's texting me the next morning, hey, what's up?

[601] How's it going?

[602] I'm not replying.

[603] I can't deal with this.

[604] This is too much.

[605] When the text messages were coming in, she must have known.

[606] There's no way that she didn't know, and she wasn't owning up to it.

[607] She didn't apologize.

[608] I was really hoping that she'd be like, oh, my gosh, I'm so sorry.

[609] But that never happened.

[610] It was, hey, what's up?

[611] How's it going?

[612] What are you up to today?

[613] She would keep texting me, and then eventually later, it was about 4 p .m. So she had been texting me all day, and I was not replying, because I was so weirded out.

[614] didn't know what to do.

[615] And she texted me, hey, are you mad at me?

[616] And then she would text me again.

[617] And I regret this, but I think at this point in time, I was a bit in survival mode of I need to go to work and keep my job and I need to keep the peace.

[618] I texted her back and I said, no, I'm not mad.

[619] I've just been busy, is what I replied.

[620] I remember having to go to work and see her.

[621] And she's just like, oh, hey, acting like nothing happened.

[622] And I was really confused because I was like, you know what happened.

[623] I had to play it cool.

[624] Eventually, my partner, he really wanted me to go to her boss, which is a family friend of mine, Steve.

[625] I wasn't ready to.

[626] I didn't know.

[627] I thought the best thing I can do, maybe she doesn't remember.

[628] Maybe she was so wasted that she has no idea what happened.

[629] At that time, I was very stressed from things outside of work, and I just wanted to keep my workspace as stress -free as possible because I needed my job.

[630] I needed to enjoy going to work.

[631] And I thought, if I blow this up, she's way smarter than me. She's more educated than me. If I blow this up and it goes awry, I won't have a job or I'm not going to enjoy going to work.

[632] I can't do that right now.

[633] So I ignored it.

[634] My boyfriend was upset, and I was like, look, you need to just let me do my thing.

[635] I get that you're upset, but you need to leave me alone about this.

[636] Like, I can't deal with this.

[637] I can't deal with the pressure.

[638] I got pressure from both sides.

[639] I had to put my foot down and I ignored it.

[640] So I left it, and we didn't speak about it.

[641] Thinking back on it now, the implications of her and how much it impacted my life and my future.

[642] She told me the story, and Naomi was very upset by it.

[643] Yeah, she went through the whole thing.

[644] Her telling me the story and her, like, going home and telling her fiancé what had happened and him being upset.

[645] And, yeah, I mean, I certainly heard the story, but I heard it from Naomi.

[646] And Naomi was really upset by it.

[647] My boyfriend's brother flew in to visit from overseas, and we took them on this super beautiful hike, up to this glacier.

[648] I was so excited to show them where we live.

[649] It's quite mountainous and beautiful.

[650] We get to the top.

[651] And my partner was like, let me take a photo of you.

[652] And I was like, oh, okay, cool.

[653] And I'm like eating pepperoni sticks.

[654] All of a sudden, I turn around and he's proposing to me. And I was like, oh, my gosh, this is crazy.

[655] I was so surprised.

[656] To this day, I'm so surprised about this proposal.

[657] Because I thought he would just be like, yo, we're getting married, okay?

[658] that it was so romantic.

[659] I'm not a romantic person, but it was very romantic.

[660] Karina, we're back at work.

[661] Months had gone by the whole weird night at the Tapis restaurant.

[662] It's under the rug.

[663] I've moved on.

[664] I'm still weirded out about it, but I feel okay ignoring it and not addressing it.

[665] There was a really trendy wine bar in a cool part of town, and she was like, hey, one of my friends who I know, through my family has this boutique winery and he's throwing this launch party for this new wine that he made.

[666] I was like, oh, what?

[667] That's cool.

[668] She's like, yeah, it's ticket only, but I'll see if I could grab us some tickets.

[669] Oh, great, cool.

[670] Me, I love a wine.

[671] Sign me up.

[672] She's like, hey, I managed to get two tickets, but you need to wear all white because it's a white wine.

[673] And because it's September, she's like, the theme is white after Labor Day.

[674] And I was like, ooh, cool.

[675] And so I'm getting my white outfit together.

[676] I'm so excited and I'm so scared because I'm going to this cool area of town.

[677] And there's going to be all these bougie people there, fancy, wealthy, like, probably so fashionista vibes.

[678] I'm wearing my Forever 21 sweater and hemmed down white jeans.

[679] I will always remember walking to the door, and my hands were so sweaty, being like, oh, no, I'm going to need to shake hands with people, her friends.

[680] I'm so nervous.

[681] And I walk in, and I'm all of a sudden stumped because no one is wearing white.

[682] I am the only person wearing white.

[683] It was my engagement party, and she threw it for me. I was so surprised.

[684] I've never had birthday parties thrown for me. I think I had one when I was in grade five.

[685] I just remember being shocked at first, being like, what?

[686] And then she's there being like, happy engagement, and all my friends are there.

[687] That was such a good story.

[688] It was so much fun.

[689] They had pictures of me and my partner, and we had wine.

[690] I felt so special.

[691] It really, again, solidified our friendship.

[692] A few months go by, we're chilling.

[693] We are jimming.

[694] Now that I'm getting married, I'm like, I need to be so jacked.

[695] I need to bring my husband in through the threshold of our marital bed, carrying a firefighter style or movie style.

[696] I don't know.

[697] So we were doing that.

[698] We were having such a great time.

[699] I'm at work one day.

[700] We were having a staff meeting about how we can make the office nice or different policies, procedures, and things like that.

[701] So it was me, Steve, and a few other therapists.

[702] it was a mandatory staff meeting and Karina's not there.

[703] So I'm texting her under the table being like, yo, are you alive?

[704] She texted me like an hour later.

[705] Oh my gosh, I'm so sorry.

[706] I totally slept in.

[707] I'm rushing there now.

[708] A little while it goes by.

[709] Steve left.

[710] Everybody left.

[711] The staff meeting was over, but she had to come in because she had clients.

[712] And all of a sudden, Steve calls me and is like, hey, do you know where Karina is?

[713] And I was like, No, she's on her way, though, because I texted her.

[714] Because by this time, of course, it's been a couple years.

[715] Everybody knows we're really good friends.

[716] We hang out on the weekends.

[717] We go camping together.

[718] He said, I just got a phone call from a random person saying that she was in a major car accident and was being taken to the hospital.

[719] I was like, what?

[720] He's like, yeah, he comes back to the office.

[721] And I'm like, hey, Steve, don't worry.

[722] My mom works in one of the major hospitals in our city.

[723] Let me call my mom.

[724] At this point, I was so cocky and confident.

[725] I was like, I got this.

[726] I will find her wherever she is.

[727] I'll figure out what's going on.

[728] I talked to my mom and I said, hey, Karina was just in an accident and we're not sure what hospital she's being taken to, but it was a major accident and could you track?

[729] And she said, sure.

[730] So she hung up the phone.

[731] She went down to check in emergency.

[732] And called me back.

[733] Because this is one of the major hospitals, I thought, okay, she's going to be there.

[734] She called me back and she's like, Karina's not here.

[735] She struck him with her motor vehicle.

[736] She had been under the influence that she left him there.

[737] In January 2022, local woman Karen Reed was implicated in the mysterious death of her boyfriend, Boston police officer John O 'Keefe.

[738] It was alleged that after an innocent night out for drinks with friends, Karen and John got into a lover's quarrel.

[739] en route to the next location.

[740] What happens next depends on who you ask.

[741] Was it a crime of passion?

[742] If you believe the prosecution, it's because the evidence was so compelling.

[743] This was clearly an intentional act.

[744] And his cause of death was blunt force trauma with hypothermia.

[745] Or a corrupt police cover -up.

[746] If you believe the defense theory, however, this was all a cover -up to prevent one of their own from going down.

[747] Everyone had an opinion.

[748] And after the 10 -week trial, the jury could not come to a unanimous decision.

[749] To end in a mistrial, it's just a confirmation of just how complicated this case is.

[750] Law and crime presents the most in -depth analysis to date of the sensational case in Karen.

[751] You can listen to Karen exclusively with Wondery Plus.

[752] Join Wondry Plus in the Wondry app, Apple Podcasts, or Spotify.

[753] And I was like, what?

[754] No, she's got to be there.

[755] She's got to be there.

[756] My mom's like, no, she's not here.

[757] And I even went to go look where the Jane and John Does are when you go in and you don't have any identification and you can't speak.

[758] I was like, what?

[759] Okay.

[760] I hung up the phone.

[761] I called Steve.

[762] And I was like, well, she's not at the main hospital.

[763] We split up the tasks.

[764] He drove to another major hospital in our city.

[765] And I was calling around hospitals.

[766] We have a couple of university hospitals.

[767] We have a couple of smaller hospitals.

[768] and every single one, nope, nope, no, no, no. Near the end of the day, Steve came to the office, and he's almost in tears.

[769] He looked so distraught and so worried, and he was like, I don't know where she is.

[770] I don't know what to do.

[771] And I was like, don't worry, Steve, it's all good.

[772] I got into the car and drove off with a coworker who was dropping me off at home.

[773] And right as we pull up to my place, I got a text message.

[774] And it's her.

[775] And she's like, hey, I'm so sorry.

[776] I'm just getting access to my phone now.

[777] I was like, oh my gosh, what happened?

[778] Where are you?

[779] We've been looking for you all day.

[780] What happened?

[781] And she's like, oh my gosh, you wouldn't believe it.

[782] I got into this major accident.

[783] I'm like, where were you?

[784] I've been looking all over for you.

[785] What the fuck happened?

[786] And she's like, I'm so sorry.

[787] I'm just being released now.

[788] And I was like, what hospital are?

[789] you at?

[790] And she mentions one of the smaller hospitals in our city.

[791] I was like, what?

[792] Karina, I called there.

[793] And she's like, oh, I know.

[794] Instead of Karina Stevenson, they put me under Kieran Stevens.

[795] I was like, what?

[796] And she's like, yeah, it's so weird.

[797] My medical bracelet has the wrong name on it.

[798] I was like, okay, do you want me to come and pick you up?

[799] She's like, no, they're going to drop me off at home.

[800] And at that moment, I was like, hmm, there's something wrong here.

[801] She's like, I can't look at screens.

[802] I have a major concussion.

[803] I need to just go home and sleep.

[804] I thought about this a lot for the next few days.

[805] I talked to my mom.

[806] Things didn't seem right.

[807] And I was like, okay, my mom, I don't know.

[808] There's something wrong.

[809] There's something wrong here.

[810] A few days later, I was so, weirded out about it that I texted Steve.

[811] Steve, I've known for a long time.

[812] He's known me since I was a child.

[813] He's been somewhat of a family friend, and I really trust him.

[814] He's a great person.

[815] I messaged him, and I said, hey, Steve, can we talk?

[816] I really need to talk with you.

[817] He was like, sure, when would suit you?

[818] And I was like, could I call you on my lunch break tomorrow and he's like, yeah, it's been about three or four days since this accident.

[819] Karina's been off work and there's something about it that it doesn't sit right with me. I remember anxiously waiting for this conversation, leaving the office and going to this little hole -in -the -wall restaurant that nobody would find me or hear me. I felt like I was in some weird detective movie where I was like this source that was being hunted down by some intelligence agency with like my hood on.

[820] Here I am in this greasy spoon diner acting like I'm a spy.

[821] I don't know if you know the feeling of being sick with anxiety.

[822] Well, I'm here so anxious and like nauseous.

[823] I'm calling my best friend's boss.

[824] He answers the phone.

[825] He's so nice.

[826] And he's like, what's up?

[827] And I was like, uh, not much.

[828] Um, you know, chilling.

[829] Thank you for giving me this job, but I have some major concerns about Karina.

[830] You have to understand that I am Karina's best friend at this point.

[831] She's helping me plan my wedding.

[832] I'm throwing her her 30th birthday.

[833] We're doing things together.

[834] We hang out every day, basically.

[835] We talk on the phone all of the time.

[836] And here I am going behind her back to her boss and saying, I have some serious concerns about Karina.

[837] Steve's like, what do you mean?

[838] And I was like, well, that accident that she was in, I don't think it happened.

[839] And he was like, what?

[840] And I was like, yeah, I don't think it happened.

[841] There's something wrong here.

[842] The things that she was saying, It doesn't add up.

[843] He was like, what do you mean?

[844] And I was like, well, there is no way they would have put Kieran Stevens on her medical alert.

[845] My boyfriend has gone through some pretty intense medical things.

[846] And my mom works at one of the biggest hospitals in our city.

[847] It just doesn't happen.

[848] I've been in the hospital any time somebody comes to check on you and to administer medication.

[849] They check your chart and they say, what's your name and date of birth?

[850] There's no way that they would have perpetuated a different name.

[851] And if they didn't know what the name was, she would have been a Jane Doe.

[852] And he was like, oh, I'm sure with her concussion, the details are foggy.

[853] And I was like, look, Steve, I feel like shit going behind my friends back to you.

[854] I need you to look into this for me. And if you come back and you tell me that it happened, I will let it go.

[855] I will let it go 100%.

[856] I won't mention it again.

[857] That's next time on something was wrong.

[858] Basically, she was saying, I know what you're doing, fuck you, and I'm just going to mess with you.

[859] Mail me already was really suspicious and was starting to follow up on things.

[860] Check the stories.

[861] And in that moment, I was like, I got you, bitch.

[862] You would never dream that so much of what they say is a lie.

[863] I was like, you need to listen to me. Something is seriously wrong.

[864] She's not telling the truth.

[865] And you need to believe me. Thank you so much for listening.

[866] Until next time, stay safe, friends.

[867] Something Was Wrong is a broken cycle media production.

[868] Created and hosted by me, Tiffany Reese.

[869] If you'd like to support the show further, you can share episodes with your loved ones, leave a positive review or follow Something Was Wrong on Instagram at Something Was Wrong podcast.

[870] Our theme song was composed by Gladrags.

[871] Check out their album, Wonder Under.

[872] Thank you so much.

[873] If you like Something Was Wrong, you can listen early and ad -free right now by joining Wondery Plus in the Wondery app or on Apple Podcasts.

[874] Prime members can listen ad -free on Amazon Music.

[875] Before you go, tell us about it.

[876] yourself by filling out a short survey at Wondery .com slash survey.