The Diary Of A CEO with Steven Bartlett XX
[0] I was fiercely wanted to prove that I could do it all, but I realised quite quickly that doing it all wasn't all was quacked up to be.
[1] Annie Mac.
[2] Annie Mac, a superstar DJ.
[3] Who's been forging her own cult status for nearly 20 years.
[4] Make some noise!
[5] I was a teenager in the 90s, heroin chic, Cape Moss.
[6] It was very hard not to become consumed by what the magazines and the music videos are kind of showing you.
[7] Become obsessed with how much you weigh and what you're eating and all of that.
[8] I really wanted to get out.
[9] I loved music.
[10] I loved talking to people.
[11] I love connecting with people.
[12] What happens when you put music and connections together?
[13] Radio.
[14] Welcome to BBC Radio One.
[15] I was mad ambitious.
[16] I wanted to get bigger.
[17] I wanted to try everything.
[18] I felt like I wanted to prove a point.
[19] There was a lot of pressure being female in what was essentially a man's world.
[20] It's a horrible feeling, isn't it?
[21] When you don't feel like you can do anything good enough.
[22] It became this kind of feeling of the walls closing in.
[23] I should be more great.
[24] for the fact that I'm getting sent brilliant music every week and I get to play this on the radio but I don't feel excited enough for what this is I felt like I didn't want to be needed by so many people anymore get yourself together any come on Jesus Christ is your last link on radio one it takes time to feel at peace with yourself to just walk away for people that are stood there looking into uncertainty can you tell them about how you felt in the lead up to that decision was their fear was their doubt what I've realized now is What do I have to understand about your origin story, where you came from the context in which you were raised to understand the person that's sad in front of me today?
[25] Probably that I grew up around a lot of noise, being the youngest of four.
[26] My mom had four babies in five years.
[27] So we were all very close together.
[28] you know we were I guess I don't know how you would maybe lower middle class I was born in a housing estate my claim to fame was the first baby born in our housing estate semi detached my dad worked in England from Monday to Friday so he was away a lot so my mom kind of raised us in the weeks and I was surrounded by love and because I was the youngest, kind of allowed to grow up without too much fussing, without too much disturbance.
[29] I was allowed to figure out my own likes.
[30] And I was hugely influenced, of course, by my older brothers and sister, and still am.
[31] So I've always been around people.
[32] I've always felt a kind of sense of being part of a group, a big family, which gives you that feeling of safety, I suppose.
[33] The other thing I would say is that I've always, and you kind of notice this as you get older and you go home and you know you regress when you walk in your front door and you become a teenager again, I've always noticed that I am a bit of a pacifist, sorry, a pacifier, a diplomat.
[34] I like to try and keep the room happy.
[35] You know, I like to try and keep the equilibrium between people.
[36] So I'll become a joker.
[37] I become an entertainer.
[38] I kind of, I like to try and.
[39] make people happy.
[40] So that's that's another thing I've noticed.
[41] Was that a useful skill at some point in your life or a required skill, keeping people happy being a pacifier?
[42] I think it's become useful later in life, especially in my professional life, because I literally chose a job that was to be a conduit of joy.
[43] That was my job on Friday nights on radio one for many years.
[44] It's just to spread the kind of magic and joy that, you know, that music can give, you know, euphoric feeling.
[45] I was that messenger.
[46] So I did find a job that led to me making use of that skill.
[47] I suppose if you could call it a skill.
[48] Certainly a skill.
[49] I'm wondering why you were a pacifier though.
[50] Is that something?
[51] I think like just, you know, there was never any like, you know, trauma in our house or anything like that, but it was definitely just a loud, busy house.
[52] And, you know, four teenagers in one house is a lot.
[53] You know, there's loads of arguing and stuff.
[54] So it's easy to take, everyone takes a role when you live in a house like that.
[55] And my role was to keep people sweet, basically.
[56] And as the youngest, it was easy because I was that kind of, you know, I was the one that everyone, I guess, doted on a bit.
[57] So it was easy to play that role.
[58] What influence did your parents individually have on you?
[59] When you look at who you are today, can you see sort of an imprint of either of them?
[60] yeah i'd say i'd say that there's both they're both in me quite a lot my father is an extrovert he loves people he loves his friends he loves chatting to anyone he can chat to so i very much got that off him my mom is really bookish and really smart and very gentle she she kind of she she She parented with real kindness and a real sense of selflessness and just she was just soft and gentle in a way that the more I look at now as a parent I'm just kind of in awe of, especially with four bonkers kids bouncing around the house.
[61] So I don't know.
[62] I think my friends have said there's an element of me that's strong and also an element of me that's sweet.
[63] and I think maybe that's one parent in each of those.
[64] Before you became an adult, what were the things that were you were worrying about?
[65] You know, like I reflect on my childhood and I think about the insecurities, the shame, the trying to fit in in an all -white school and all those things and how that kind of shame had a big role in the path I pursued in my orientation.
[66] What were the things that were occupying your mind when you were under the age of?
[67] 18, the insecurities, the fears of the world, etc. No, I mean, there was so much, you know, corporeal stuff, so much about your body and the change is that your body is going through and were you thin enough and were you skinny enough?
[68] You know, I was born in 78, so I was a teenager in the 90s, you know, heroin chic, Cape Moss, you know, low rider trousers that hung off your hips.
[69] That was, you know, like rib cages on show, all of that.
[70] So, I mean, it was very hard not to become.
[71] consumed by what the, you know, the magazines and, you know, the music videos and all of that are kind of showing you.
[72] So, of course, like, there was shame.
[73] I think in Ireland you grow up around shame.
[74] There's a lot of shame in Ireland as a country.
[75] I think it's kind of passed down generationally.
[76] I was brought up like Protestants.
[77] So I went to kind of a church of Ireland church, but Ireland is, you know, the majority of Ireland is Catholic.
[78] So there's a lot of shame in that.
[79] When I was born, there was no divorce.
[80] There was no abortion.
[81] There was no gay marriage there was nothing like that but in my lifetime i've been incredibly lucky because Ireland has changed hugely irrevocably um and you know publicly voted for all three of those things divorce abortion gay marriage um and it's become a way more kind of outward facing country but i suppose when i was growing up still it felt very closed it wasn't really that outward looking i don't think um so i felt very eager and curious about the world everything i knew about the world was through the face magazine or nm e or tfi friday or you know all the kind of culture that i sucked up um so i was just curious to go and see it basically and get out i really wanted to get out had i asked you um at that time you knew you were going to leave if i'd asked you where you were going to go and what you were going to do, what would you've told me?
[82] Well, I really wanted to be an actress.
[83] That was like my one true love.
[84] And that I kind of put all my eggs in that basket.
[85] Now, I did apply for an acting course in Dublin with this very prestigious university.
[86] It's a Trinity University.
[87] It's a uni that's in normal people.
[88] That's how I call it now.
[89] But I didn't get in.
[90] Spectacularly failed the audition.
[91] That classic kind of went to go and do my speech.
[92] was a soliloquy at the end of Romeo, Julia, and, like, froze, like, couldn't, the words just didn't come, you know, awful.
[93] Went home, chopped all my hair off.
[94] I had hair down to my, like, to my lower back, chopped it all off, came home with hair like that long, gave my mom a plastic bag with my ponytail in it and was like, that's it, my life's over, basically.
[95] I didn't get into the course.
[96] I'm, you know, I was such a drama queen, Steve, clearly.
[97] But my life, at that point, I'd kind of like, I'd done really well, not really well, sorry, was kind of, I was just average.
[98] I did grand in school.
[99] But I, it succeeded at other things.
[100] I was good at sports.
[101] I was in the choir.
[102] I was kind of like proactive and involved in lots of things.
[103] And everything that I'd kind of wanted at that point had gone my way until this point.
[104] And I was like, well, like it's so ironic.
[105] I was actually voted the person most likely to be a movie star in my year.
[106] I was like, it's, it's destined.
[107] I'm going to be a movie.
[108] It's like, this is easy.
[109] I'm just going to walk into this course and do it.
[110] And then just didn't get in.
[111] And it was a real, rejection and something that I hadn't experienced before.
[112] And it was actually my mom who really helped me out of that rut.
[113] She was the first person in her family to go to university.
[114] She went to Queens.
[115] And she suggested I go there and apply through clearing.
[116] And at that point, I was desperate.
[117] I didn't know what else to do.
[118] So I went up to Belfast, which is about two hours north of Dublin on the train.
[119] And I got in there through clearing and did English literature there.
[120] So she helped me find my way out of that ruts.
[121] She was always a very calm presence in the background, always very wise and calm and kind of, when I look back, the more I think about her, the more I think she guided so much of my decisions very quietly, you know, never any pressure or any, you know, just suggesting.
[122] So I did leave home.
[123] I got out.
[124] I went to the island of Ireland, but it was technically another country.
[125] It was the UK.
[126] It was Belfast.
[127] And it felt completely different from the island on you.
[128] And it was completely starting again.
[129] I didn't know anyone.
[130] I was living in halls in this room with someone I never met.
[131] And I had to start from scratch.
[132] And it was kind of cool because it meant that all of the baggage that comes from growing up in Dublin, you know, everyone wants to know what school you go to, oh, do I know your mom?
[133] Does she teach at that school?
[134] You know, all of that is gone.
[135] I was a completely unknown person.
[136] I had a clean slate.
[137] I could build my identity from scratch and figure out exactly who I was in this new world without the kind of, I suppose, not constraints or even baggage, but just without all of that stuff that came with me in Dublin, the family connections, the school, all of that.
[138] So it felt really scary but also really exciting.
[139] And they were, honestly, three of the best years of my whole life.
[140] I've found friends, I've found a new family for myself in that way.
[141] and figured out what I wanted to do slowly over the course of three years, found the career that I wanted, which was radio.
[142] And I always think, like, looking back, you know, sometimes the things that you don't get end up being the best things that you've ever, you know, gotten in a way.
[143] Like if you mess up, if you fail, if you don't get what you want, that can end up being the best thing that ever happened to you.
[144] And that's very much what happened to me. You know, I had one path.
[145] It didn't work.
[146] I had to turn left.
[147] And it meant then that I was able to kind of very slowly and organically feel out how I wanted to live in the world.
[148] What made me happy?
[149] What did I love?
[150] I loved music more than anything.
[151] I loved talking to people.
[152] I loved interacting with people.
[153] I loved connecting with people.
[154] What happens when you put music and connections together?
[155] Radio.
[156] Music radio.
[157] And it was that simple.
[158] such a simple rudimentary equation but I made that I made that equation and I was like okay that's where I'm going to go talk about how failure can redirect you towards something else and I think everybody can relate to that in their own lives but there was a question of my mind because I know how how persistent you are and I know how hardworking you are so why didn't you go back around for another shot at acting why don't you redo the test or go to another college Why did you go off in another direction?
[159] It's a really good question because I asked myself that recently because I actually interviewed Anne -Marie Duff on my podcast and that happened to her.
[160] She didn't get into acting college and she went back and she tried again.
[161] I think that maybe I didn't want it as much as I thought I did.
[162] Basically, like I'd been a lead in the school play and suddenly I was like, that's it, you know, it's destined.
[163] But I hadn't done any acting experience.
[164] I hadn't done any amateur theatrics.
[165] I hadn't done anything like that.
[166] so I think I was feeling a little lost and I think a lot of the time in school there's a pressure to pick a path what are you going to do when you grow up what are you going to be where you know what's your vocation it's ridiculous to ask an 18 year old we know that as adults that life changes life zigzags you you change all the time so like for me it felt like convenient because I had this experience that was good and it's like okay well that to grand, I'll just do that, as opposed to really kind of thinking it through and coming into it.
[167] You're talking there about discovering who you are and also that moment when you're 18 and you've got to kind of pick an identity and it's kind of this unsaid assumption that this is what you're going to be forever, so it feels high pressure.
[168] What have you come to learn generally about these labels we put on ourselves?
[169] I am a lawyer.
[170] I am a actor.
[171] And the, you know, I understand why they're sometimes they help us to fit in.
[172] They help us to be understood.
[173] We put them in our bio and people understand who we are before they meet us, etc. But there can also be a real downside to these to kind of pigeonholing yourself in your own mind as a thing.
[174] Completely.
[175] I couldn't agree more.
[176] I think the world can be terrifying sometimes and I think it's comforting to be able to put a label on yourself and feel like you're part of something, a community, a tribe, a vocationary, you know, thing.
[177] And also to, as you say, to be understood by people.
[178] Prue Leith came on changes and talked about how she very much believes that you should have a revolution every 20 years in your life.
[179] And I'm obsessed with that now.
[180] Because I feel like I'm going through that now, you know, in my 40s.
[181] I'm going through my second revolution.
[182] And I love that idea that you should be able to completely put, you know, obviously there's a privilege in this, you know, I'm not assuming that everyone could just drop their jobs and go and get another one.
[183] But if you are able to afford the space and the time to do that, I think it's so good for being alive to learn.
[184] This is what I figured out.
[185] Everything's about learning, basically.
[186] Everything comes down to learning.
[187] That's when you feel the most alive.
[188] That's when you feel the most stimulated.
[189] That's when you feel most connected to yourself is when you're learning.
[190] So for me, I just want to keep learning.
[191] And very much, with my own experience now, I have two young sons that when they are growing up, I'm going to try and be very open about what they do and encourage them.
[192] I mean, it even happens now with kids, you know, you can't force them to do things.
[193] Can't force your kid to play football if he's not into football.
[194] But if he's decided he really wants to kind of do hip -hop dance, well, come on then, let's go do hip -hop dance.
[195] It's the same as adults.
[196] You can't force yourself to do something.
[197] But if you feel a pull, you should be able to do that.
[198] And the only way you feel those pulls is it be able to listen to yourself.
[199] So you have to check in with yourself.
[200] You have to give yourself the headspace and the time to really allow yourself to listen, to listen to how you feel about life, to listen to when things feel a little wrong or to when you feel unstimulated.
[201] You know, to come down home at the end of a week, a working week, and say, I didn't feel remotely excited or stimulated about what happened that week.
[202] Okay, what can I do to change that?
[203] How can I tweak things?
[204] Do I need to zoom out and really look at my general career?
[205] It's the different things I can do.
[206] It's that.
[207] It's constantly checking in with yourself all the time.
[208] And that can lead to small incremental changes, but also really big, big ones, which I feel very excited by.
[209] It's almost a bit of a paradox that we can become the victim of our own success in that regard.
[210] If we become really good at being a lawyer, then we build a community around us of lawyers and we get known as that we become this identity and then we will almost become somewhat imprisoned by this identity.
[211] Sometimes it's a job title that we were really good at.
[212] We got awards for so now everybody sees us as that.
[213] What in your experience is the cost then of becoming too wrapped up in your own label or identity?
[214] What cost have you experienced in your life?
[215] Is there a psychological cost?
[216] Is it a...
[217] I think it's like, it's...
[218] It's basically the only cost is a feeling of stagnation, I suppose.
[219] You know, like...
[220] And stagnation's maybe a strong word, but everyone will relate to the feeling of the word coasting, right?
[221] When you're coasting.
[222] I guess I was feeling that a little bit at the BBC and especially with DJing.
[223] So there are two very different things, but with the BBC, I felt, I mean, I loved my job and I'm so grateful for it and all of that, but I think I did feel a little coasty.
[224] I felt like I was coasting a bit, you know, and there's a point where you feel like I should be more grateful for the fact that I'm getting sent brilliant music every week and I get to play this on the radio, but I don't feel excited enough for what this is.
[225] I don't feel like I'm serving my audience right now in the right way.
[226] I'm not on their level when it comes to how excited I should be about what this is.
[227] So that was a conscious decision to take myself out of that and be able to have someone replace me who serves them and who are at the peak of their fucking excitement about, you know, that.
[228] And I still love broadcasting and I still want to broadcast, but it would be in a different way.
[229] With regards to DJing, I feel like the problem with DJs that they always say is that the DJs grow up and the crowd stay the same age.
[230] And that's what happens.
[231] You feel yourself growing and growing.
[232] So when I started out DJing, I was flinging myself in the crowd.
[233] I had a problem with crowd surfing.
[234] It was like, stop fucking crowd surfing, Annie.
[235] It was constant.
[236] I'd get, I'd get hammered.
[237] I'd be like hugging people.
[238] We'd have after parties and then after after parties.
[239] I'd get no sleep.
[240] I'd fall asleep in Abitha Airport, face down, waiting for the flight like I had the best time but then life catches up with you when you have kids and you grow up and you have other priorities so fast forward 10 years I'm DJing to people who are the same age but I'm thinking about what I'm going to put in the school lunches the next day right I'm thinking about how much sleep I'm going to have in the pillow on the on the pillow on the way home in the back of this car before my kids wake up at 6 o 'clock and how I'll be able to get through the working day tomorrow I started dividing my time in increments of kind of 15 minutes because I was so stressed out about not being able to have the time to sleep, to rest, to then be a good parent to be able to do my job properly.
[241] It became like this kind of feeling of the walls closing in, you know, just like, I can't please everyone.
[242] So at that point, it was like, I, this isn't sustainable.
[243] It's just not sustainable.
[244] I can't keep doing this.
[245] And I started DJing a lot less because of that.
[246] The world of DJing and dance music and club culture was in the very nature of how it worked, kind of shutting me out because of how I was changing as a person.
[247] But then I kind of opened a door and made it work for me and a lot of other people.
[248] And when I do the before midnight shows, people just come up and say thanks.
[249] They're just like, thank you so much.
[250] Thank you.
[251] Thank you.
[252] I'm 52.
[253] And I feel like I can belong here and I can come out.
[254] And, you know, it's not just people in their 50s.
[255] It's all ages.
[256] It's club kids.
[257] It's mothers and sons.
[258] It's, you know, people in their 70s.
[259] It's, it's the most beautiful atmosphere.
[260] I've never DJed to a crowd like it because they're so kind and open.
[261] And it's not really that druggie.
[262] Everyone's just there.
[263] It's there one night out.
[264] They invest so much in it and they're there to have a good time.
[265] It's nice to know that my own feelings about something were echoed by so many other people.
[266] And, I don't know any other women in their 40s, really, who are doing what I do.
[267] So I was coming at it from a very unique perspective, which is women in their 40s just aren't listened to in music industry.
[268] Music industry is run by men, mostly, right?
[269] So when you have a woman in her 40s, they're kind of forgotten about, right?
[270] I don't think people think about women in their 40s or 50s when it comes to selling music.
[271] And they really should.
[272] It's a big, big industry.
[273] There's a lot of income there.
[274] there's a lot of investment of time they you know there's there's some great taste and uh it's been wonderful to kind of feel like i can give those women a space in in the world of clubbing there's a real i hear a real lesson about creativity but also innovation in that in the sense that when you when you think about creating new things it's very difficult to try and put yourself in the mind of someone who are you you are not sure when when you want to create something thing that is that is going to feel authentic and is going to be original and in demand, you should first create something for yourself under the assumption that there's many more people out there like you.
[275] I couldn't agree more.
[276] And your music is kind of a reflection of that in many ways.
[277] Your style has been a reflection of that.
[278] It's always felt very authentic.
[279] Yeah.
[280] I think that's the key, right, to everything, in my opinion, is authenticity.
[281] And in order to be authentic, you have to trust yourself.
[282] You have to have conviction in your sound.
[283] and you have to trust that your own instinct is the right instinct even if everyone else is telling you something different that's hard and in order to do that you have to really know yourself so I don't know I think at radio my job there was to play music and break bands right you get sent so much music okay now at some point you have to say no to stuff and the grounds of that there's many reasons you can say no you're not the right hype band they don't have enough followers you know they don't have someone from their record label who's nice in me up to play it but actually the decision has to be down essentially to you does this song move you do you feel like this song has got something ideas lyrics sonics that can you know that that elevate it to the point where you feel like moved by it and I suppose there's training in that because it makes you every day every week have to use that mechanism in your mind which is instinct you know what I mean yeah you have to you have to listen to your own instinct so so I was kind of exercising that muscle by default in my job and I guess that's why I'm so happy and just grateful for before midnight because that is an extension of that.
[284] It's me using my instinct and saying, no, I believe in this.
[285] Surely there must be people out there who believe this too.
[286] And it's been amazing.
[287] Instinct is almost, especially in the way you describe it, it's almost a voice inside of you that is whispering to you about what you think and feel and what you truly want.
[288] But then there's this counter -narrative, there's counter -voice, which is usually outside of you.
[289] It can be, oh, well, what if my producer doesn't think that's a good song?
[290] Or what if the listeners don't like it, or what if my parents think I shouldn't be doing this, isn't?
[291] Has your ability to tune into your own instinct to that voice inside of you that informs you kind of before you know yourself consciously, has your ability to tune into that grown over time and with evidence?
[292] Yeah, I think it really has, actually.
[293] I think it really has.
[294] I mean, as well as the radio shows, DJing is a huge amount of that.
[295] It's having the courage to draw for a tune.
[296] that you know the audience don't know and won't recognise, but you still think we'll keep them on the floor.
[297] And again, that is like, it's a really hard exercise and it takes a lot of fearlessness to be able to do that.
[298] And it's very easy to panic and just put on the tune that you know it's going to fill the dance floor.
[299] And I have a folder on my USB called Panic for that is special thing.
[300] So, you know, we all have those.
[301] Every DJ does.
[302] But again, I think that's a really, really good lesson in instinct and a lesson in kind of reading the cred, but also holding firm, holding firm to your own conviction in something's good.
[303] And I think that has grown over the years.
[304] It's grown with confidence.
[305] It's grown with, I suppose, the idea of my shows being successful and my DJ sets being successful.
[306] So as I've become more successful in my career as a result of instinct, of trusting myself and trusting my instincts and my tastes, then obviously, you know, that that feeling grows more firm.
[307] You get less worried about making the wrong decision.
[308] And as your career has progressed, do you feel like if one side of the pendulum is trying to guess what people want from you, in all facets of your life, and the other side of the pendulum is doing what I think is right?
[309] Yeah.
[310] Do you think over the last 10, 20 years of your career, you've moved towards the instinct doing what I think is right?
[311] Definitely.
[312] Yeah.
[313] I'm kind of all there now.
[314] Good.
[315] Which is lovely.
[316] Yeah, it feels really good.
[317] And I think part of my, the big changes that went on in my life in the last couple of years, kind of extricating myself on Radio 1 and doing writing and writing books and taking up podcasting, that's all been about that.
[318] It's all been the kind of nucleus of all of those changes is me saying, what do you want, what do I want, what makes me happy, what is not making me happy, it's all of that, it's all just checking in and doing what I feel is right.
[319] And there's no way I could have made those changes.
[320] just 10 years earlier, or even five years earlier.
[321] It takes time.
[322] It takes time to feel like at peace with yourself enough to just walk away from a career like that and say, no, I'm going to do something completely different now.
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[355] Zooming back then on into that part of your life where you described yourself as having a knot in your stomach.
[356] The quote I read is, I've learned that for the past six years.
[357] I've had a knot in my stomach.
[358] I had no idea it was there until it's gone.
[359] Yeah.
[360] Yeah.
[361] I could relate to that.
[362] Yeah, how?
[363] The feeling, because the broader context of what you were saying there is this feeling that you're like not going to do a good job at pretty much anything at the same time and almost like a building sense of guilt or trying to find a way to slow down time and it's always kind of hanging over you and then you can kind of feel it in your chest.
[364] I mean, that's kind of what I took from it is walking around with a sense of guilt and I just need five more minutes to sleep or to be this or to do well for this person.
[365] Yeah, it's a horrible feeling, isn't it?
[366] when you don't feel like you can do anything good enough.
[367] It's like the absence of peace.
[368] Yeah, it's the opposite of peace.
[369] It's a constant feeling of kind of turbulence in your head, constantly being pushed and pulled.
[370] So when you take that out, again, you know, I was too busy.
[371] I keep talking and I keep going back to it, but I keep talking about checking in with myself.
[372] I was too busy to do that.
[373] I hadn't done that.
[374] I never did that.
[375] I was never like, spiritual or into any of that stuff because I was too busy.
[376] It was like I don't have time for anything apart from just getting up and getting through my day.
[377] My friends used to take the piss out of me because everything was like five minute increments.
[378] They called me. I'd be like, cool, give me the headlines.
[379] How are you?
[380] I don't have time for a full, you know, it was always that.
[381] It was always like, how can we, how can we truncate all of this into a short time as possible so I can move on to the next thing?
[382] And do more.
[383] Yeah, and do more or just like maintain.
[384] I wasn't even about doing more.
[385] It was just maintaining at that point.
[386] So when I made the decision that I was going to leave radio, it's important to know the context of which that happened.
[387] So I didn't just walk away from the career and be like, see you, I'm just going to see what happens.
[388] I obviously took a couple of years to try out some different avenues.
[389] And these were avenues that I felt very passionate about that I really wanted to do.
[390] So one was writing and one was podcasting.
[391] And podcasting was a reaction to the BBC.
[392] It was definitely me being like, I want to own something with regards to my own broadcasting.
[393] I want to control it.
[394] I love the BBC.
[395] I will, you know, fly the flag for the BBC forever.
[396] But it can be very frustrating working for a huge institution because there's so many islands, there's so many departments, it's very hard to get something off the ground.
[397] So I wanted to be a broadcaster outside of the BBC and see how that felt.
[398] So that was podcasting.
[399] And then writing was something that was very much not professional or career -orientated at all.
[400] that was for my soul.
[401] That was like, I want to try and learn something.
[402] I know I loved this.
[403] I want to try and do it again.
[404] And also, I think in retrospect, it was a way of me trying to understand myself because they say that about writing.
[405] Like, writing is a way to know yourself.
[406] So I thought if I wrote, in hindsight, maybe it was a kind of weird subconscious way of me trying to climb out of the panic.
[407] You know, it was kind of like I know if I make myself dedicate time to writing, then I will have to confront myself.
[408] I will have to look in the mirror.
[409] And I know deeply, deep down that there's something wrong, but I just don't have the time to confront it.
[410] So I was doing writing.
[411] I did a course, a six -month course.
[412] I was also doing podcasting that was on top of DJing, on top of doing my five shows a week, on top of everything else that was going on.
[413] So I had two years of total chaos of trying to juggle everything, right?
[414] And it was after those two years when I was like, okay I know enough I know I love writing enough I know I love podcasting enough that I can give these a go I'm going to take myself out of radio now I'm going to take myself out of my what was essentially my day job and give myself the space I need to really pursue these things and that's when they're not left when I made the decision to leave is when they're not left when I called my boss and said I'm out use the words panic and the phrase something wrong to describe the feeling that was kind of underpinning these decisions to go in search of something else to climb you know you said climb out of the panic in in hindsight i've heard you say that in especially from doing your podcast changes you've kind of come to learn that that was in in some respect like a midlife crisis is that accurate i think i mean i'm i think i think i still might be in the midlife crisis i like i feel like something goes on in your 40s where you really are compelled to look back at your life you're halfway through life right so you're like, whoa, what's, what's going to happen for the next half?
[415] So you look back.
[416] You're kind of forced to look in the mirror.
[417] So there was that in a way.
[418] I think, I think at that time, um, I don't know.
[419] I don't know if I would attribute, attribute that directly to like a midlife crisis.
[420] It was more just, it was more just feeling incredibly stressed and burdened and demanded by people.
[421] I felt like so many people needed me. I had a lot of teams.
[422] around me, production teams, management teams had a lot of people around me, a kind of ecosystem of people of which I was in the middle.
[423] I'm sure you relate to that.
[424] And I felt like I didn't want to be needed by so many people anymore.
[425] So my kids themselves were very needy and obviously needed to be needed.
[426] And I wanted to devote most of the needing to them.
[427] And then also I think it can happen to everyone and I think when you're busy and when you are in a situation where you're just keeping things going.
[428] You're just trying to maintain life.
[429] You're trying to keep a business running.
[430] You're trying to keep your job going.
[431] Trying to keep your kids happy.
[432] It's very hard to come out of the chaos and look in.
[433] It's very hard to do that.
[434] So I spent a good from about the age of 30 to about the age of 30, From 40, my entire 30s, it was that.
[435] It was just maintenance.
[436] I was mad, ambitious, don't get me wrong.
[437] I wanted to get bigger.
[438] I wanted to try everything.
[439] And I fiercely wanted to prove that I could do it all.
[440] But when it got to my second kid being about two, I realized quite quickly that I just, doing it all wasn't all was cracked up to be.
[441] And actually, there was different ways to do it.
[442] And what is all of it anyway?
[443] What is doing it all?
[444] I think there's something tremendously powerful in being able, and feminist.
[445] and being able to choose to step away from a high -powered job to look after your kids because it's a choice.
[446] I was very lucky in that it was a choice.
[447] And I still worked.
[448] Don't get me wrong.
[449] I love working.
[450] I will never stop working.
[451] But I just worked in a way that suited me that worked for my life as it was then.
[452] That pivotal decision removes the knot.
[453] But in the lead -up to that decision, was there fear?
[454] I imagine there was a lot of people where I would assume there would be people telling you that, you know, or at least implying that you're making a wrong decision.
[455] Or was, because I asked that question because I can imagine people listening to what you've just said and there stood on the edge of that, that decision themselves.
[456] And they're looking into the darkness thinking, I'll lose my friendship group, I'll lose this, I'll lose that.
[457] It just feels like loss and stepping into uncertainty requires a certain level of courage or conviction or in some cases a certain level of pain.
[458] there's that quote I used to I used to love that said um change happens when the pain of staying the same becomes greater than the pain of making a change so for people that are stood there looking into uncertainty um can you tell can you tell them about how you felt in the lead up to that decision yourself was their fear was their doubt no no and there wasn't because I'd spent two years trying to do the things that I wanted to do behind the scenes and I knew with all my heart that I wanted to write, that writing was, was, it felt like coming home.
[459] It felt like the most wonderful feeling discovering writing again.
[460] And I knew that the podcast had potential to be a business if I had the time to put into it.
[461] So there was this sense of kind of, of knowing that the choices I'd made were right.
[462] I didn't feel scared leaving Radio 1.
[463] I didn't feel scared making that decision because after I, after I made the call to my boss to say I was leaving.
[464] I just felt the most huge sense of relief.
[465] And I always say that you know you've made the right decision as soon as you deliver that decision, you get a feeling afterwards and that feeling tells you whether you've made the right decision or not.
[466] And I knew with that feeling of relief that I'd made the right decision.
[467] And, you know, I'd been there for 17 years, Steve.
[468] You know, it wasn't like, I'd had the most amazing time.
[469] So I didn't feel like I was leaving too soon.
[470] I felt like I'd done my I'd done a good innings you know so if anything I felt at peace and I was just excited I was excited to get the news out excited to move on and move forwards I've always been like that I'm really impulsive I'm really ask any of my friends or my management team and they will say I'm very impatient I'm very impulsive I want things everything to happen now so in a way it was good to have time to make this decision and to have time before it came out to the world to process it, but I genuinely didn't feel fear.
[471] And I would say for anyone who's standing on the precipice of change, the best power you can have is knowledge.
[472] So know what you're stepping into, you know, as much as you can.
[473] And you will feel better and stronger about walking away from what's come before.
[474] Part of the issue, I remember Obama was saying on stage when he spoke in Brazil at this conference I was at, he's, he talked to, about how in his role, when he, you know, when he went to get Osama bin Laden, that compound in Pakistan, is you never have all the information ahead of time.
[475] Never.
[476] But that's what's exciting.
[477] Yeah.
[478] It has to be unknown.
[479] It's terrifying for some people.
[480] Yeah.
[481] A certain type of person is trying to get to 100 % certainty.
[482] Well, we all know.
[483] There's no such thing.
[484] Only in hindsight, you get it.
[485] But I think, I think there's something very life affirming about not knowing everything and something very important about being comfortable in that space of not knowing everything you can't control life you cannot control life as much as you try i have tried it's not possible at some point you have to relinquish control and allow allow yourself to move through life freely without trying to control everything around you and for me stepping into that there was definitely an unknown ahead but i knew enough to know that I was going to be okay in terms of emotionally and psychologically.
[486] And that was okay.
[487] So I agree.
[488] I think fear of the unknown is undeniable and indisputable, but I think it's about allowing that fear to exist, acknowledging it, seeing it, allowing it and, you know, living with it to move forwards.
[489] It's fear sometimes, you know, it's healthy.
[490] It's a human instinct.
[491] It's important to feel it.
[492] 17 years with the Beebe.
[493] You became one of the best DJs, one of the most well -known DJs in the whole of Europe.
[494] Tremendous success.
[495] Why are you?
[496] When you look back and connect the dots, because, you know, there's very few people at that top table.
[497] There's a lot of people that want to be at that top table.
[498] There's a lot of people that would love that are listening to this right now and that would absolutely say they would want to take your career to sit at that table, the table you walked away from.
[499] Why are you?
[500] Well, I think essentially I was different because I was a woman.
[501] There wasn't that many women around when I was starting out in the world of dance music.
[502] So, I mean, there was women.
[503] and I'm by no means kind of saying that there wasn't, but there wasn't very many.
[504] So I think for Radio One, they quite liked this idea of having a young woman join the station and do dance music.
[505] For them, they really liked the fact that I wasn't an expert.
[506] I wasn't tried and tested.
[507] I didn't have a reputation for being a huge global DJ.
[508] They wanted to employ someone that was representative of the audience.
[509] My initial tagline for my first show was like, I'm coming at this from the perspective of the dance.
[510] floor as opposed to the DJ booth.
[511] I'm a fan here.
[512] And then obviously I got the gigs off the back of that and then slowly that transformed into me being a touring DJ and, you know, be the residences and all of that biz.
[513] I do think that at the start of my career, there was kind of, it felt a bit like a phenomenon because at the start, at the front of all my shows, it was women.
[514] It was all girls.
[515] And everyone used to remark on that.
[516] And I used to love that.
[517] So I think there was a feeling of me bringing a different, maybe audience to the table.
[518] I was very amenable.
[519] I was very, you know, ambitious.
[520] I was professional.
[521] I showed up.
[522] I did the work.
[523] I had a great team, an all -female team who worked really hard.
[524] I don't know.
[525] I think I can't tell you more than that, Steve.
[526] I find it really real.
[527] How long was your apprenticeship?
[528] How long did you, from the day you first, you know, DJ'd span a track to when people the world knew your name?
[529] How long was that period?
[530] I mean, like, as in like I used to DJ around my friend's parties and stuff, like just for fun from when I was about 20.
[531] And then I got my show.
[532] on Radio 1 in 2004, so I would have been, yeah, it would have been maybe like three or four years.
[533] Yeah, because when I got my show on Radio 1, people knew my name immediately, which was quite mad.
[534] Quite mad.
[535] Well, it was just mad to be like, even though I'd worked behind the scenes at radio and I'd seen DJs, it was just quite bizarre to be going from the assistant producer, the person who made the tea, to then being like a DJ, get an agent, let's do a photo shoot.
[536] know, it was just like, whoa, it was quite, but actually the biggest shock for me was going from working full time to having one show a week and just being really like, what?
[537] Because I love working, so I was a bit bored.
[538] So I had to find, find a, like, a way to make peace with being freelance, I suppose, and working in my own hours.
[539] Do you think your relationship with your work is healthy?
[540] Good question.
[541] I do now, but it definitely has.
[542] hasn't been in the past.
[543] I've always worked from when I was 15.
[544] I really enjoy working.
[545] I've been hugely ambitious.
[546] So I had a sense of momentum that I felt like I had to, you know, I had to honor.
[547] Why?
[548] I think there was a lot of pressure being female in what was essentially what felt like a man's world so I felt very uh like I wanted to prove that this was possible and that women could DJ and uh we could carry a crowd and we could carry a club night and an events and a festival and a residency all of that biz I felt like I wanted to prove a point basically so there was that but I also loved it so it was kind of a combination of both a lot of the DJs at Radio 1 were really competitive as well so you kind of sense that there's a sense of like wanting to be able to stand and be proud of your lot and what you represent and what you bring to Radio 1 you know so that momentum like carried me all the way through from my mid -20s up to yeah up to being around 40 and then just kind of just so mad like just you know stepping stepping off that train it's just It's just crazy because you ask yourself with these questions, where was all that coming from?
[549] Why did I, why did I want to work so hard?
[550] Who was I trying to prove these things to, you know?
[551] But the fact of the matter is I did enjoy it.
[552] And, you know, I'm not going to sit here and be like, it was awful.
[553] It wasn't.
[554] It was absolutely fucking amazing.
[555] So I'm really grateful for it.
[556] But it was unsustainable?
[557] It was unsustainable for where I was at.
[558] And this is the thing that I've learned is that where I was out in my life.
[559] It didn't work at that time.
[560] But as we know, life changes.
[561] Our situations change all the time.
[562] So I could go back to being a full -time touring DJ in five years and do my Ibiza residencies all over again.
[563] And I quite like having that openness.
[564] This doesn't have to be a closed book now.
[565] I could go back to broadcasting and doing like a daily radio show.
[566] It's about adapting with who you are at that time in your life and what you need.
[567] And that's what I did.
[568] So for me, and it's only really in the last year that I've opened up to everything again I think I'd been so blinkered like that's it now, radio's done I'm going to be a writer I'm going to be a podcaster and I'm going to DJ now and again at the end but now it's like no actually before midnight it's like no I can really I can really flourish as a DJ I can really make this last and blossom into something that's completely different than how I envisioned being a DJ as an older person same with radio I could go back to that and find a whole new way doing radio that feels amazing for who I am at that moment.
[569] So I really like this feeling of everything being open and attainable according to where I'm at in my life.
[570] With all of this chaos, I think is a good word.
[571] Because I think chaos is going back to something you were talking about earlier, the need for something to strive for in a sense of forward momentum.
[572] It's funny, I wrote about how we go through lives thinking we're trying to reach stability, having no goals, everything's sorted.
[573] But really, we're actually trying to stay in case.
[574] And it's kind of a paradox that when we reach stability, we get psychological chaos.
[575] And when we're in chaos, we have stability.
[576] Like when we're striving and when we have goals to complete and things are busy, we're stable.
[577] But with all this chaos that you've chosen over the last, you know, 10 years.
[578] Yeah.
[579] What's your mental health journey been like?
[580] I mean, the mental health journey has been pretty, it's been pretty, okay and I realize how lucky I am to say that you know I feel very grateful that I haven't suffered from depression or anxiety or anything like that in my life weirdly recently like and it's interesting that you talk about this idea of when you stop then kind of you have chaos in your head so I've experienced a bit of that in the last six months and I think that is finally like a year after leaving radio it's all kind of settled down and everything I've wanted to change has changed and life is really safe it's really predictable and i'm a little bit bored so it's like i've had to be like okay you've got everything you want but now you need a bit of chaos again so it's just constant tweaks so i mean i'm going out on the road again there's things that are happening that will we'll scratch that itch it's fine but um i've also felt kind of like hormonally just like you know i'm 44 i'm in perimenopause this is all happening to me now there's a whole different change in life.
[581] They call it the shift.
[582] You know, everything's changing there.
[583] So there's this sense of hormones kind of consuming you and taking over your mental health in a way that if you weren't aware of it can be really scary and frightening and damaging.
[584] So I'm trying to educate myself as much as possible about all of that stuff so that when it hits me, I know what's coming for me, you know, and I know what to do when it comes.
[585] I was talking to Gabby Logan about that in our last Yeah, it's so insidious because it comes, it's so quietly, it kind of creeps in and it creeps in, like as Gabby said, like with moods, you know, you kind of quite, your moods are more extreme, you don't deal with things as well.
[586] You kind of get irritable more, angry or upset easier.
[587] But for me, I felt like, this is the other thing about perimenopause.
[588] It might come and then it will go for six months and then it come back again.
[589] So it's really, there's no regulation to it.
[590] So it's very hard to pinpoint, oh, that's it, you know.
[591] What you have to do is be really across it and document everything and then be able to zoom out and look and be like, why, that, that, that, that, okay, it is.
[592] It's perimenopause.
[593] So that's what I'm kind of doing at the moment.
[594] I'm documenting everything.
[595] But it's like I had a feeling recently of just feeling totally restless.
[596] Like, oh my God, not like insatiable.
[597] Like nothing was, nothing was satisfying me. I couldn't, you know, I would exercise.
[598] I'd see friends.
[599] I'd go out.
[600] I'd be with the kids.
[601] I'd, you know, everything I tried to.
[602] I'd just.
[603] I'd, I'd just could not feel satiated and I did not understand it.
[604] And then I realized that it was a hormonal thing.
[605] So there's so many things that you go through and it's like a weird jigsaw puzzle.
[606] But if you know what you're looking for, it really helps.
[607] And I actually have Devinna McCall to thank for that because she sent me her book and she's been an incredible spokesperson for menopause and perimenopause and just getting information out there to people.
[608] or I think she deserves some sort of, you know, national treasure status.
[609] She's incredible for what she's doing.
[610] I agree.
[611] I think she's amazing.
[612] She DMs me sometimes.
[613] I still freak out because I think.
[614] I'm saying, such a fan.
[615] Oh my God, it's Davina off the deli.
[616] On that point of women -related issues, one of the things I've heard you talk about is tokenism.
[617] Okay.
[618] I read an article you wrote, I'm going to get this date wrong.
[619] Maybe 2014 or 2016 in Vice.
[620] Oh, the Vice article.
[621] Yeah.
[622] How do you feel about the article?
[623] Your reaction was interesting.
[624] I feel at the time I felt it and I meant it.
[625] So what I was arguing about was, you know, a journalist who asked me what it was like to DJ in heels and, you know, kept referring back to the fact that I was a woman when I DJed and I was pissed off about it.
[626] It was like, can you stop asking me about being a woman because you're not asking this to Pete Tong?
[627] You know, you're not asking this to other DJs.
[628] And then there was a thing at the time where it was like this idea of doing like all female nights, you know, like just female only DJ nights.
[629] And I resisted that because at the time I was felt like it didn't feel right to have to put us down to gender as opposed to ability as DJs.
[630] Like why are we, why are you grouping all the women together?
[631] Like just let us all be DJs together, you know.
[632] You're either a good DJ or you're not the end.
[633] There shouldn't be a gender issue.
[634] but obviously over the years with the lack of women in the game it was like I kind of had to like change my mind on that a little bit not change my mind I still don't think that women are like DJs should be assessed with regards to their gender but if we need to have more women in the game then yes we should be encouraging any way that we can do that and if that means putting loads of women on a lineup and reminding people how great women are as DJs then go for you.
[635] it.
[636] So I think for a lot of my early career, it didn't even occur to me that it was, you know, there was, I mean, I knew there was a problem in that there wasn't a lot of women DJs and I was always delighted when there was other women around.
[637] But it didn't occur to me to be an activist about it and to shout about it and to try and bring women through.
[638] There was one turning point I remember when I got asked to DJ at a festival and they wanted me to be a headliner and I looked at the line up and the first 11 lines of names were all men and it was the 12th line where there was a female name and I remember emailing back to promoters who were all guys and saying who I knew and worked with and was like guys like come on what's going on here um and that was the first time I ever kind of answer you know was just like this isn't okay um and then from then it kind of snowballed and I became a lot more vocal about it.
[639] Once it clicked that I actually had a bit of power and I could do something about it, you know.
[640] And it's been a joy to watch because now there's so many amazing women.
[641] They're like killing it.
[642] When you think about the next chapter of your life, if we sat here in 10 years' time and I said, Annie, that was a really successful 10 years.
[643] Or you told me it was a really successful 10 years.
[644] What would have it had to involve for that to be the case?
[645] I mean, this is fascinating because as I've got older, my idea of what success is has completely changed.
[646] Success for me isn't numbers.
[647] It's not tickets sold.
[648] It's not awareness.
[649] It's not algorithms.
[650] It's not anything like that.
[651] Success for me now is personal happiness.
[652] Personal happiness.
[653] Personal happiness is personal happiness.
[654] stems from feeling stimulated, feeling as alive as I possibly can, learning, and also feeling like the people I love are in the best possible way that they can be in terms of living their lives.
[655] So that's success now.
[656] So if you were to tell me, you know, at the end of my 40s that you had a successful decade, for me that would mean that I felt, I felt like a sense of contentment and peace, but also I felt alive.
[657] I always go back to that.
[658] I think writing makes you feel alive because it forces you to put what's there down on paper and it forces you to look at what's in your head and it forces you to figure things out.
[659] I think learning makes you feel alive, it makes your head tick, it challenges you.
[660] So it's that combination of kind of peaceful contentment, but also feeling like pushed and challenged in a way that isn't going to be damaging.
[661] Does that make sense?
[662] Yes, it does.
[663] Okay, good.
[664] Perfect sense.
[665] Right, okay.
[666] Conversely then, if the next 10 years was unsuccessful and you said to yourself, do you know, I made the same mistakes again, yeah, what would that 10 years involve if it was unsuccessful?
[667] and you'd made the same mistakes again.
[668] I think it would be running away with a sense of what I should be doing as opposed to what I actually really want to do.
[669] So let's take this, for example, let's say changes my podcast.
[670] It would be, okay, it's doing well, so I want to double it.
[671] I want to do two more episodes a week.
[672] I want to try and be the biggest best podcast out there.
[673] And I'm kind of doing that without the resources or without the team around me to do it, taking on that responsibility, as opposed to just allowing it to grow kind of slowly as it is.
[674] It would also be DJing way more.
[675] It would be trying to write a book every two years, which I have been doing.
[676] And I don't know if it's just that's sustainable.
[677] And just, yeah, I guess kind of doubling down on all the work I'm doing and trying to be the best and the biggest at what I'm doing, as opposed to doing what I'm doing well and within my means.
[678] we have a closing tradition on this podcast where the last guest leaves a question for the next guest not knowing who they're going to be leaving it for yeah the question that's been left for you is what is the pain you experience in your life that hurt the most but you would not erase in hindsight getting dumped when i was in my 20s yeah getting dumped um it was the biggest kind of kind of experience like that and it was really important for me to know how that felt to be on the receiving end of heartbreak I was incredibly miserable but I climbed out of it and I think it was a real big lesson to know how that felt so yeah getting dumped in my 20s yeah why was it important to know how that felt because I'd always been the dumper I was always that person who kind of was able to up and leave and I'd never been on the other side of that isn't it the most excruciating pain in the world oh god it's just awful it's just ultimate rejection it's kind of very hard to see past it but yeah a lot of the world will know you as Annie Mac but more but more recently um you've really taken hold of your your full name Annie McManus yes reclaimed it Reclaimed.
[679] Why?
[680] Why so?
[681] I don't know.
[682] I just felt like I just, again, I went through this period of change, Steve, where I just like, I wanted to change everything.
[683] I got, it was like, okay, I've changed my job.
[684] Something so huge and what felt quite insurmountable at times to be able to change that empowered me to want to change loads more.
[685] So writing this book, it genuinely, the first book I wrote Mother Mother, it felt like a whole different side of me. It felt like, all of me. There's, you know, when you're, when, when, when, when I'm on the radio, well, first of all, when I'm DJing, no one really gets any of me apart from my music selections on the odd crowd surf if I've drank enough.
[686] But radio, there's also a very limited kind of surface level of me that you get, that you got because I was only able really to talk about music most of the time.
[687] And yes, it's tip bits of your life.
[688] But with this book, it felt like a real kind of some of all of my parts.
[689] So it felt like a disservice to the book to give it that name.
[690] I was also very determined to try and call it by my full name.
[691] In a contrary way, I suppose, my agent at the time would have probably said that like, surely you should just cash in on fact that it's Annie Mac and people know you for that.
[692] But I really didn't want to do that.
[693] I wanted the book to be judged for the writing and for nothing else.
[694] I kind of did it all the way.
[695] I should have started with a memoir and then gone to a book, but I did it all.
[696] I wrote this strange, kind of bleak novel about addiction and grief and a young girl growing up in Belfast, and it was so far removed from any perception of who I was as a kind of professional person.
[697] But I liked that because it kind of set the bar for what I wanted to do with the writing.
[698] I didn't want it to be influenced by anything that had come before.
[699] I wanted to be real and true and authentic to who I was as a person.
[700] So it felt right to give it my full name, my born name.
[701] Well, Annie, I'm really glad you did because I think it's somewhat symbolic of the journey you've been on so clearly in your life and your relationship with your own conviction and creativity and intuition, which is creating ever greater, ever more valuable art as you kind of, the pendulum swings over to intuition and stepping into yourself and understanding who you are.
[702] But I can also tell from the conversations we've had that it's bringing you closer to your sense of like fulfillment in life and balance and all those things, which for many of us, we abandon in the pursuit as we're dragged away by our desire to fit in or momentum or our success or whatever.
[703] And that's created some amazing writing.
[704] It's created amazing new ideas, as you talked about, with your new format that ends at midnight.
[705] And it's very exciting to be on the receiving end of all of that art and creativity.
[706] It's also very inspiring.
[707] Your podcast is amazing.
[708] Thank you so much.
[709] My best friend in the whole world, he peppers me every day.
[710] He says, you need to listen to this episode.
[711] But in this episode, he absolutely loves it.
[712] My friend, Ash, he's my best friend.
[713] And I recommend everybody listening to this to go and check it out.
[714] Because if you love deep conversations, if you love realness and vulnerability, then you definitely will love changes.
[715] Thank you so much, Steve.
[716] And also, like, everything I've talked about has been inspired by talking about change on a weekly basis.
[717] That is empowering, learning from other people and how they change their life.
[718] So I think that's helped me a little bit.
[719] The podcast has helped me to be brave to change.
[720] And me too.
[721] Yeah, yeah.
[722] And yours is one of the real, really important ones out there.
[723] So everybody makes sure you go and listen to that.
[724] I'm excited for your book coming next year.
[725] Thank you, Steve.
[726] I know how terrifying that can be and how much work that is to create something like that.
[727] So, um, thank you.
[728] Thank you for your time.
[729] Thank you for the inspiration.
[730] And, um, I'm, as a fan, I'm excited to see all the, the wonderful things.
[731] Your passion and, um, sort of intuition creates over the next decade.
[732] Well, thank you for the lovely questions.
[733] I can't feel like I just talked at you.
[734] No, that's the point of, yeah.
[735] I'm not here to talk.
[736] People are sick at me. But no. Thank you, Annie.
[737] Thank you.
[738] Thanks.
[739] Quick one.
[740] As you might know, Crafted are one of the sponsors of this podcast, and Crafted are a jewellry brand, and they make really meaningful pieces of jewelry.
[741] The really wonderful thing about crafted jewelry is it's super affordable.
[742] It looks amazing.
[743] The pieces hold tremendous meaning, and they are really well made.
[744] I think I've worn this piece for almost a year.
[745] It hasn't broken, hasn't changed colour, because it's really, really good quality, and it costs roughly 50 quid people will be surprised when they hear that they'd probably assume that all of my jewellery is like solid gold and costs thousands and thousands of pounds but what's the point when you can achieve the exact same effect from a piece of jewellery that's high quality and costs 50 quid that's why have I crafted