Tom Aspinall: The UFC Doesn't Want You To Know This! Jon Jones Wasn't Living Like An Athlete!

[0] I'm the number one heavyweight in the world right now, and I'm scared to fight everybody.

[1] What about Jon Jones?

[2] I'd be an idiot otherwise.

[3] But now that I understand fear and what it does for me, it just fuels me so much in a way that nothing else can.

[4] So I'll be prepared to do whatever I need to do.

[5] But I just don't like what he's doing because I can't function knowing that I trained for a fight and didn't actually fight somebody.

[6] Jon Jones is officially retired.

[7] Tom Aspinall is the heavyweight champion of the UFC.

[8] Did you see this coming?

[9] And do you have any idea when you'll be back in the octagon?

[10] I do, yeah, yeah.

[11] Tom, you're the only ever British heavyweight champion of the UFC.

[12] So what advice can you give young men that are struggling to find that sense of purpose?

[13] It takes years to become an overnight success.

[14] I've been going since I was eight years old and I've been up against so many tests from career -ending injuries to financial struggles to mental struggles.

[15] And at one point, we had three kids at the age of 25 and I had no money.

[16] I mean, my first pro fight, I got 200 quid.

[17] I felt the pressure trying to be a young guy but having all this responsibility on me, having to borrow money from friends.

[18] fine nappies for my kids so I can keep living on this dream.

[19] But outlasting people and consistency is massively underrated.

[20] And in today's day and age, people just have a lot of options.

[21] But that obsessiveness of being 100 % focused on something, you win.

[22] Tom, there's this black box in front of me which contains something which represents a pivotal moment in your career.

[23] What is the story behind this?

[24] It was the most devastating thing that happened in my whole career.

[25] So ahead of showing you that interview which we recorded a while ago, I wanted to call Tom and get his first reaction to the news that he's now the UFC's undisputed heavyweight champion of the world.

[26] So what I'm about to show you is a conversation I had with Tom hours after the news was announced that he's now the undisputed heavyweight champion of the world.

[27] And then I'm going to play the long -form interview that me and Tom had several weeks ago right here in the studio.

[28] Enjoy.

[29] Quick one before we get back to this episode.

[30] Just give me 30 seconds of your time.

[31] Two things I wanted to say.

[32] The first thing is a huge thank you for listening and tuning into the show week after week.

[33] It means the world to all of us and this really is a dream that we absolutely never had and couldn't have imagined getting to this place.

[34] But secondly, it's a dream where we feel like we're only just getting started.

[35] And if you enjoy what we do here, please join the 24 % of people that listen to this podcast regularly and follow us on this app.

[36] here's a promise I'm going to make to you.

[37] I'm going to do everything in my power to make this show as good as I can now and into the future.

[38] We're going to deliver the guests that you want me to speak to and we're going to continue to keep doing all of the things you love about this show.

[39] Thank you.

[40] Tom, did you see this coming?

[41] Yes, but I just didn't expect it.

[42] When it happened, I expected it.

[43] So next week I'm going to Vegas.

[44] I'm going for the, well, they say it's the biggest fight card of the year, a fight card called International Fight Week.

[45] And I knew that I had some news coming on International Fight Week.

[46] We got wind that Jon Jones is going to retire and they're going to announce it on International Fight Week.

[47] But for some reason, they announced it last night.

[48] I don't know what that reason is.

[49] It took me by surprise at least, but they announced it last night.

[50] What was your initial honest gut reaction when you found out he was retiring?

[51] Where were you?

[52] What was your first feeling when you heard that news?

[53] Well, I only knew 100 % actually last night.

[54] It was always like rumours of him retiring.

[55] He's putting stuff out on the media saying that he's retiring.

[56] Because MMA, especially at an elite level, is quite, there's not many people, like you hear rumours a lot.

[57] So I heard rumours from people close to him that he's going to retire and that he's not living like an athlete.

[58] who's fighting at the top level anymore and that he's not interested and he's not in the gym and et cetera.

[59] But I knew that there was going to be a decision made by the UFC coming soon, whether he's going to continue.

[60] And we got it last night for sure.

[61] We finally got it confirmed last night.

[62] So I am very happy to get this part of my career behind me in the rear view mirror now.

[63] But how did you feel?

[64] Because I think from the conversation we had, which we're going to play in a second, it was clear to me that you wanted to have Jon Jones on your record.

[65] You wanted to fight him.

[66] What I really want is the Undisputed title.

[67] That's really what I was chasing the whole time.

[68] I was never really chasing one guy.

[69] Jon Jones was always just a bonus because of the resume that he's got and because of the name that he has and the status that he holds within the sport.

[70] He's so well respected.

[71] I think that would have been a great scalp for me to have.

[72] on my resume.

[73] But ultimately, I was chasing the belt.

[74] I was chasing being the number one heavyweight fighter in the world, which I am.

[75] And I can say that I am now, especially with John not around and he's retired and that's behind us.

[76] But ultimately, the thing that I wanted really was the belt.

[77] The fact that John's left the sport.

[78] Obviously, it would have been better for me career -wise to have that name.

[79] Financially, it would have been great as well.

[80] But the thing that I was ultimately chasing was the heavyweight title.

[81] And how do you think about John's decision?

[82] Do you view it as a strategic dodge or do you view it as a genuine sort of closing of that chapter of his legacy?

[83] I think that he's entitled to do whatever he wants, to be honest.

[84] He's done way more in the sport than I have, so he should do whatever he feels is right.

[85] Speaking as just a fighter here, if it was so public...

[86] For me personally, I don't know if my ego could take it having not done it.

[87] But honestly, that's his prerogative.

[88] I don't hold any ill will against him for it.

[89] And I'm happy to move on with my career now that it's over.

[90] Because you've got to remember, I've not fought for nearly a year now because of this.

[91] And I've been healthy the whole time.

[92] I've been in the gym the whole time.

[93] I've been doing exactly what I'm supposed to do as a high -level operating athlete at the elite level.

[94] So I'm glad that that is behind us now.

[95] Do you in part, I guess, take this as a bit of a compliment that there was such huge public pressure for him to fight you and actually the route that he chose was to retire instead of fighting you?

[96] I mean, that's quite a compliment for someone of John Jones' stature.

[97] I try not to let my ego take control of me. I could see why people would think that.

[98] But to me, it's just like maybe when I've retired, when I've retired myself, which is not going to happen.

[99] in the next couple of years at least.

[100] I'll think about that kind of stuff.

[101] But for right now, it's just like, we've got to focus on another fight.

[102] We've got to get me active.

[103] We've got to get me back out there and doing what I'm supposed to be doing.

[104] Because right now I've been thinking about that whole situation and being held up and frustrated for almost a year.

[105] And it's what I love doing.

[106] I've been held back for the whole time and it's not been very fun, to be honest with you.

[107] So the ego side of my brain is like...

[108] Yeah, I've kind of beaten without fighting him.

[109] And I did say that.

[110] I've said that the whole time that I'm going to retire him without fighting him.

[111] But I don't kind of want to harp on about that, really.

[112] I want to kind of just put that behind me and move forward on my own path now.

[113] I hear you.

[114] And, you know, Jon Jones is an unpredictable individual.

[115] So there's still a possibility that that retirement wasn't a legit retirement and that he might get a bit bored and end up deciding that he wants to come back and fight you.

[116] Is that something that you would consider if that were to happen?

[117] I'm sure with where he's at, he can like jump the queue anytime he wants.

[118] So, you know, this time a year down the line, we'll have another three or four contenders knocking on for a title shot, I'm sure.

[119] But anytime someone like him wants to step up and say, listen, I want to fight again, they're going to get an immediate title shot.

[120] So I'm never going to count that out.

[121] And I'm sure that maybe he's, you know, I'm in a spot in my career where there's not that much footage out there on me. Maybe he sees something on me in the next few fights and he thinks, you know what, I can beat this guy.

[122] I'm going to come back and beat him.

[123] So mentally, I'm never counting that out.

[124] I think the fight is always, it could always pop back up and come back around on me. So that's something that I would obviously accept.

[125] But as I said before, I think a lot of people get it confused over the last kind of 10 months -ish is that I was chasing Jon Jones.

[126] That was never the case.

[127] I was chasing the undisputed heavyweight title.

[128] That's it.

[129] If I do get the opportunity to put Jon Jones on my resume, of course, I'll accept that with open arms.

[130] But if not, I'm content, I'll move forward and I'll create my own legacy without him.

[131] And what has changed overnight?

[132] As a UFC fan, is there anything that I'm unaware of that changes when Dana announces you as the Undisputed?

[133] Does your contract change?

[134] Is there anything that changes other than the fact that you've now got a sort of a clear path and you're now the one being chased, you're no longer chasing?

[135] Well, I was on, because I was an interim champion, because I was a champion in my own right as well.

[136] So I was already getting a lot of the perks that come with being a champion.

[137] Stuff like pay -per -view points is something that you get when you're a champion.

[138] What's that?

[139] Pay -per -view points is where you get a cut of the pay -per -view sales.

[140] Okay.

[141] So I don't want to go into the details of my contracts, of course, but you'll get, if someone pays $60 for a pay -per -view.

[142] you might get $2, you might get $5 per bar, you might get 10 people, different people have different perks in the contract.

[143] So I was already having that because I was a champion in my own right anyway.

[144] But yeah, nothing actually really changes, just the fact that there isn't two belts anymore in the division, which is great.

[145] There's one face, one name and one guy in the division.

[146] And to me, that's what separates MMA from other sports.

[147] other fight sports at least, is that, for example, in boxing, you can have like five, six, seven, eight, even sometimes different organization.

[148] You've got the WBO, the WBC, the IBO, the IBF, and all these different ones that I don't even know about.

[149] And they all have different champions in each organization.

[150] Whereas generally speaking, the number one guy in the world is the UFC champion.

[151] And before John Jones retired, there was two of us in the division, which is a little bit of a strange...

[152] Strange conundrum that I wasn't comfortable being in.

[153] I think that there should be one guy in every division.

[154] And now that John's gone, obviously we didn't get to fight about it, which I would have liked.

[155] But at least there's one guy and I'm happy with that moving forward.

[156] And who's the number one contender now?

[157] You're now being chased, right?

[158] You were doing a little bit of chasing in terms of trying to get that unified.

[159] But who in your mind is the number one contender now for their heavyweight title belt?

[160] Oh, that's...

[161] I'm more than happy being chased.

[162] That's fantastic.

[163] I would rather be the hunted as opposed to the hunter because I've been chased.

[164] I don't like chasing fights.

[165] I like just being the guy and everyone comes to me. That's fantastic.

[166] So most of the time, I've actually fought a lot of the top 10.

[167] One of the guys I've not fought is Cyril Gann, a French guy.

[168] That's a fight that I was, I was actually chasing that fight a few times before he was.

[169] He was ducking and diving around himself a little bit.

[170] So he is due a little bit of a beating off me. I look forward to that.

[171] A couple more guys down the rankings.

[172] A Brazilian guy, Jelton Almeida, I've not fought.

[173] There's a guy I've already beat called Alexander Volkov, who's doing really well for himself as well.

[174] So who knows?

[175] You never know in the heavyweight division.

[176] There's a couple of up -and -coming guys who I've not mentioned as well.

[177] So there's some good fights to be made over the next couple of years for sure.

[178] If I were to say myself, it'd be great to see you fight gone.

[179] in London or in the UK somewhere as your next fight?

[180] Do you have any idea what you're doing next and when you'll be back in the octagon?

[181] I do, but I also want to keep my job.

[182] There's not much I can say on it, to be honest.

[183] Will you be fighting this year?

[184] Yeah, I'm going to be fighting hopefully twice this year.

[185] That's my plan.

[186] I think I've wasted enough time now.

[187] We're looking to get a fight booked quick, and it's looking like it's going to be pretty soon anyway.

[188] And then hopefully, if everything goes well in the first one, I'm uninjured, which is easier said than done, getting through a fight with a guy my size and coming out with no injuries.

[189] But if I can do that, I would like to fight at the end of the year as well.

[190] That would be perfect.

[191] And are you off to training now?

[192] You're flying out to Vegas.

[193] So I'm assuming you're going to the UFC center out there and starting training?

[194] No, so I'm training constantly, regardless if I've got a fight or not.

[195] The only thing that changes for me is basically intensity in the sessions.

[196] But I'm actually going to Vegas for, well...

[197] I am the heavyweight champion of the world, so they're going to want me at the big shows.

[198] So I'm going to be showing my face there, doing a little bit of media and stuff.

[199] I will, of course, be doing a little bit of training.

[200] You know, just different stuff.

[201] I'm working with a new sponsor that I'm going to be with till the end of my career, which is champion.

[202] So I'll be working with them out there and just doing bits for the UFC, meeting fans and doing bits of training, just being around the scene.

[203] And I don't often, to be honest, I'm so routine and I'm so routine based and goal focused that I don't like to leave.

[204] my home routine and training regiment that often.

[205] So when I go to the US and do things like this, I like to do as much in a short space of time as possible so I can get back to my, because I know what I need to do to be good and to win fights.

[206] And that's be at home and be in my routine and be focused.

[207] So I don't like to leave my routine too much and go overseas and do all this other stuff.

[208] So I'll be killing as many birds with one stone in this trip as possible.

[209] You're a family man. Tom, I got a real understanding of that in the conversation that I'm about to play.

[210] Your family are very close to you.

[211] You're a father.

[212] What's the reaction been like with your partner, your kids, your father, your parents over the last couple of hours since you've been crowned as the Undisputed?

[213] To be honest, it didn't really make much of a difference.

[214] I think a lot of people said the same thing outside of my family as well.

[215] It was like you were kind of the champion anyway, because I think the way that Jon Jones played it the last year or so, it just didn't.

[216] A lot of people didn't see him as the unified heavyweight champion anyway.

[217] So I think a lot of people close to me, like I told my kids this morning, they were just like, not bothered at all.

[218] It didn't make the slightest bit of difference.

[219] I said, look, I'm only telling you.

[220] So when your friends tell you at school, you'll know.

[221] And they were like, okay, fair enough.

[222] That was it.

[223] There was no great reaction there.

[224] What did you say to them?

[225] Well, it was just my, it's mainly my oldest son because my...

[226] My twins, they're a little bit too young to really understand.

[227] They've just turned six, so they don't really get it.

[228] But my oldest son's nine, almost.

[229] His friends are following MMA a little bit more, so he kind of is starting thinking it's cool now.

[230] So I told my son, I was like, listen, I'll just let you know, Jon Jones retired.

[231] I'm the undisputed champion now.

[232] I've got, you know, there's one.

[233] And he was just like, oh, okay.

[234] And I was like, I'm just, I know you're not that bothered.

[235] I'm just letting you know.

[236] So if your friends say anything, you know.

[237] And he was like, okay, thanks.

[238] John's probably watching this.

[239] He has undoubtedly had one of the greatest careers in the history of the UFC up there with the likes of Khabib and many of the legends through history.

[240] What would you say to him if he was watching this now?

[241] That's a great question.

[242] I don't know if he will be watching this.

[243] I'm not sure.

[244] But if he is, I think he's had an amazing career and I think he should enjoy the rest of his life.

[245] I think if he truly feels like he's done enough, which...

[246] He keeps saying that he does.

[247] He will be at peace.

[248] He doesn't need me or anybody else to tell him how good he's done.

[249] He'll know it himself.

[250] So I hope that he's enjoying his life, he's enjoying his family and he's celebrating his career because it's been amazing.

[251] Tom, congratulations.

[252] I think I speak on behalf of a lot of Brits and really people all around the world when I say that you're the...

[253] champion i think the ufc especially at the heavyweight division has really been longing for someone who wants to be active someone who is um seeking the biggest fights someone who is willing to fight anybody but also someone that's just really really relatable and i think sends a message to all of all of us that what i'd class as a very normal guy from humble beginnings can reach the very top of the professional pyramid as it relates to sports and entertainment.

[254] So thank you so much for representing the UK in the UFC, especially at the heavyweight level, which we've never had before.

[255] But we'll all be rooting for you for so many reasons, because of who you are, but also because of the exciting way that you've conducted yourself in and outside of the octagon.

[256] I'm going to let you go.

[257] We're going to play the interview now that we recorded a little while ago.

[258] But yeah, going to be watching your career very, very closely and going to be ringside whenever you fight next.

[259] I know there's a lot of people that are going to turn out to support you.

[260] So thank you so much, Tom.

[261] Thank you very much for having me. And if you're there, as always, because we know each other now and I know it's difficult when you know somebody personally.

[262] Anytime I fight, you've got to strap in, be ready for anything because it's heavyweight MMA at the highest level and anything can happen.

[263] So thank you for having me, Stephen, and I look forward to seeing you there.

[264] Thank you.

[265] Tom, if I'd met you when you were a kid and I'd asked you, what do you want to be when you're older?

[266] What would you have said to me?

[267] Well, it depends on the age, of course.

[268] But I think if you would have asked me from the age of being nine years old and above, I would have said that I'm going to be UFC heavyweight champion.

[269] At nine years old?

[270] Yeah.

[271] As soon as I kind of like went to a gym and I realised there's people in this gym who are adults and they don't have a regular job and they're just showing up to the gym every day and fighting every few months and getting money for it.

[272] I was literally...

[273] This is what I want to do.

[274] So take me back.

[275] So where do you come from?

[276] For someone that doesn't know who you are, they don't know your story, they don't know Tom Aspinall's origin.

[277] Where do you come from?

[278] So I'm from a place.

[279] I was born in Salford, which is like Greater Manchester.

[280] And then I moved to a different part of Greater Manchester, a place called Allerton.

[281] There's not a lot of stuff going on there, to be honest.

[282] I mean, it's just like a normal working class blue collar.

[283] Do you know what I mean?

[284] A lot of families, like the parents, work in factories.

[285] They are mechanics.

[286] They are plumbers.

[287] And what were your family in that context?

[288] So my dad originally worked in IT.

[289] He got paid some redundancy money, and then he decided to start teaching grappling full -time, which we're talking, when we're talking like 20 years ago, the grappling...

[290] industry in the UK was non -existent.

[291] And obviously I was quite a...

[292] I was a budding...

[293] I wasn't even like a budding prospect at the time.

[294] I'd had no fights at the time.

[295] But I was training and I was enjoying my training and my dad wanted to spend more time perfecting me to help me do what I enjoy a little bit more.

[296] How come your dad knew how...

[297] About grappling.

[298] Because he's been into martial arts for a lifetime as well.

[299] So was he the inspiration for you to go to the gym the first time and start training?

[300] So it's difficult to say because I had like a bit of a blurred line as to where I started actually training martial arts.

[301] So I started training when I was young.

[302] It was my dad's thing more.

[303] And I just used to go with my dad, like to spend some time with my dad because I didn't really have much else to do.

[304] But I used to always go down to the gym.

[305] And when I started training, there were no like kids classes.

[306] Like now you can go to the end of the road and there'll be an MMA gym with kids classes on with 20 kids in the class.

[307] Like that wasn't my case when I started at eight, nine years old.

[308] Like I used to go to the gym.

[309] There used to be 10, 40 year old guys rolling around on the floor with each other.

[310] And I just used to jump in when there was a smaller guy available otherwise.

[311] I'd just be like kicking the football around the gym or something like that.

[312] Like basically I've grown up in gyms.

[313] But when I actually started training seriously, that was probably when I was like 14, 13, 14, something like that.

[314] And was there ever a moment in those early years where you realised or someone said something to you that you can still remember that proved to you that you were better than normal people at this thing?

[315] I do remember a few instances.

[316] Like I said, I used to train with adults even when I was a child.

[317] I was quite aware, even from being young, that the adults were like taking it easy on me. You know, like they were letting me get position and letting me do certain things on them and they weren't really trying as much.

[318] And I remember feeling like the adults are starting going harder on me. If that makes sense.

[319] Does that make sense?

[320] I remember I used to just have all my own weight in training because the adults a lot of the time were like my dad's friends and his students.

[321] And then I would always be around the gym.

[322] So they'd know me and they'd take it easy and stuff like that.

[323] And then I remember like a couple of the guys who I trained with, like I said, I was like 11, 12 years old.

[324] And I remember a couple of the guys, like it became a lot more physical training.

[325] Like it became a lot more competitive.

[326] Whereas before they were just like letting me do my thing.

[327] Then they started fighting back a little bit more.

[328] And then I remember thinking, well, I must be all right.

[329] Like, if they're trying.

[330] I remember realising that people actually started trying against me and then they finished around and looked like they'd done a workout a little bit rather than just played with a kid, if that makes sense.

[331] And was that...

[332] I'm trying to figure out as well that...

[333] the thing that encouraged you to keep going at that point?

[334] Because at that age, you can end up playing football.

[335] You can end up going and joining in this club.

[336] You can end up focusing on some drama class that you're doing.

[337] But there must have been something that kind of held you in this habit.

[338] I mean, I definitely tried all that stuff.

[339] I definitely, I mean, my area is like quite a big rugby area.

[340] So like rugby league, we play up there.

[341] And I definitely delved in that a little bit.

[342] But I just never really was my thing, you know.

[343] I think because my dad and my brother was...

[344] heavily involved with martial arts.

[345] And that's just where I always felt like safe to a degree is like in the gym.

[346] I know it sounds really weird, but I felt like when you're involved in martial arts, it's almost like there can be 10 guys in the room and they can all be from different backgrounds, male, female.

[347] One guy can be 12 years old.

[348] The other guy can be 65 years old.

[349] One guy's retired.

[350] The other guy's at college.

[351] One guy's black, the other guy's Chinese.

[352] It doesn't matter.

[353] Like when you're in there, none of that matters.

[354] And everyone just respects each other and gets on regardless of like race, gender, age, what the job is.

[355] And none of that stuff matters.

[356] Everyone just respects each other the same.

[357] And I was always like drawn to that more than anything.

[358] That's why I always felt my most comfortable, especially because I was a bit more of a shy kid.

[359] I felt like I could really express myself.

[360] through martial arts and something else about martial arts is like because it's an individual sport it's like always on you if you do well or not and I realised like the more time I put in the more I got out of it like mentally and physically like I would get better the more I did it whereas with team sports especially rugby because that's a team sport I've done the most like there would be games where I personally had had like an amazing game But the team had lost.

[361] And I could see the next guy not trying as hard as me. Or sometimes vice versa.

[362] Sometimes they'd, you know, I'd had a terrible game, but the team had won.

[363] And everyone would be really happy.

[364] And I'd be like, oh, I had a bad game.

[365] And I couldn't, I could never shake that.

[366] I'd always like want to, I always liked.

[367] Control.

[368] Control, yeah.

[369] Being in charge of like my own thing.

[370] MMA in particular is very much that.

[371] It's like.

[372] If you're not putting the work in, like you will get exposed.

[373] You will get your ego checked literally on a daily basis if you're not doing what you need to do.

[374] And I love that.

[375] Like it gives you a sense of like accountability for just your everyday habits, like your thought process, what you're putting in your body, how much recovery you're getting, how many reps are you doing in the gym?

[376] Everything, like everything is accounted for publicly.

[377] And I quite like that.

[378] I quite love that actually.

[379] Your mother in this picture, where does she fit into this picture you've painted for me?

[380] And who is she?

[381] First of all, she is the nicest woman that has ever walked the face of the earth.

[382] I think she is such a lovely person.

[383] Yeah, there is literally, you know, when someone says the term, oh, she's not got, oh, they've not got a bad bone in the body.

[384] That literally applies to my mum.

[385] But as far as, so my last fight that I had, which is in Manchester, my hometown.

[386] That was the first fight that my mum's ever been to.

[387] Really?

[388] And I'm already, like, number one in the world.

[389] I'm like, bloody hell, mum, you've lived it this long.

[390] But, yeah, she just stays away from the MMA side of things.

[391] She is just a mum, which is great.

[392] That's amazing.

[393] She is a really, really lovely person.

[394] Why was that the first fight she'd ever come to?

[395] Because it's scary.

[396] And I...

[397] You didn't want her to come?

[398] No, it's not that I didn't want her to.

[399] I was...

[400] It's never been like her thing.

[401] So I would never be like, oh, mum, can you please come?

[402] Because I know firsthand, even from teammates fighting, how scary it is for me to be in attendance.

[403] So I would never drag along someone who loves me because it's horrendous, to be honest with you.

[404] It's such an unpredictable sport that you just never know.

[405] So I think my mum came because I was like, look, mum.

[406] I don't want to tell you to come or not come, but this is probably the only time I'm ever going to fight in Manchester.

[407] Like, I don't know how many fights I've got left, and I'm under the notion that I would rather retire a little bit too early than a little bit too late because I've seen the way people get late in their career, and I don't want to be like that.

[408] So I'm not saying I'm going to retire anytime soon, but I'm just saying, like, most of my fights are in the US now, and I don't think you'll ever have a chance to see me fight live again.

[409] So I think you should come to this one.

[410] And she came and apparently she enjoyed it.

[411] As you're talking about the role that martial arts has played in your life, it got me thinking about young men in general because young men in general seem to be really struggling at the moment when we look at a lot of the statistics around like suicidal ideation and purposelessness.

[412] And it made me, as you were speaking, I was like, damn, I need to do martial arts.

[413] So if there is young men listening to this that are struggling in their lives in any way, what advice would you give them in terms of martial arts or those early life decisions or even later life decisions about, you know, something that they can do to find that sense of purpose that you so clearly found?

[414] I mean, let me first of all start by saying I would be completely lost without it.

[415] I think everybody should do it, honestly, because I think that it puts your ego in check massively because you constantly, like every time you step onto a mat to train, you're getting hit in the face with reality constantly.

[416] And if you haven't been...

[417] Like, for me, it's like you're getting hit in the face with reality and if you're not consistent, that reality will hit you harder and harder each time.

[418] So it creates a sense of, like, purpose in your life.

[419] You're almost, like, scared.

[420] It's not fear, but it's like you don't want to miss. Because you don't want to get hit with the reality.

[421] You don't want to be inconsistent with your training because you don't want to be hit harder by the reality next time you go.

[422] If that makes sense.

[423] Makes perfect sense.

[424] I just think that it gives you just a massive structure in your life.

[425] And not only that, not to mention the stuff like, look, I'm not going to sit here and talk about crime rates or anything like that because I don't know the statistics.

[426] But I know that in this country especially, crime is pretty high right now.

[427] So my friend who's come with me is upstairs, Charlie.

[428] He does my social media.

[429] And he's also a close friend of mine as well.

[430] And he's a similar age to me. He's 32.

[431] And he's literally just started training because I literally said to him, like, Charlie, I say this to everybody who's not involved in martial arts.

[432] If you need to, and I'm not saying you need to be a world champion, you need to train every, but you need to have a general idea of how to defend yourself if it ever happens.

[433] You don't need to be good.

[434] You don't need to have a fight.

[435] You don't need to be preparing to fight someone in a ring in a cage or whatever.

[436] But I think everybody should be comfortable with the general idea of how to defend themselves if they need to, whether that be if you own a house, if you have children.

[437] if you have a girlfriend or a boyfriend or whatever, if you have somebody who you might need to protect who can't protect herself or something that you might need to protect, you need to have some kind of idea on how to protect that.

[438] That's my opinion.

[439] Because fighting's a scary thing.

[440] At the best it's like, I'm the number one heavyweight in the world right now and I'm scared to fight somebody.

[441] So, like, I wouldn't like to be completely clueless.

[442] because it must be so scary, and I think that I would recommend it to anybody of any age to do some kind of martial arts.

[443] So there's a couple of things you said there which I'm most certainly going to ask you about.

[444] The first thing you said was about how martial arts brings the consequence of a lack of discipline up close, but also increases the consequence.

[445] I was thinking as you were saying that, I was thinking, oh, my God, this is so true, because if I may...

[446] 18 year old guy and I'm sat on the sofa at home doing nothing with my life the consequence of that is quite hard to see in the short term what you're saying is by doing martial arts the consequence becomes weakly and becomes you're going to get your fucking nose broken so that's motivating to get your life together and then the other thing you said is I'm the number one in the world and even I'm scared to fight somebody who?

[447] everybody I don't want to fight anybody I mean, I want to fight professionally.

[448] I love doing that.

[449] But I mean, as far as like a confrontation with somebody, that's the last thing I'm trying to do.

[450] I don't want to do that with anybody.

[451] So you weren't saying that you're scared to fight a particular person?

[452] Well, yeah, yeah.

[453] I mean, yeah, I'm scared to fight everybody.

[454] Yeah.

[455] And I think that for professional combat athletes across the board, whether that's boxing, kickboxing, wrestling, MMA, whatever you're into.

[456] I think that's like a very, very taboo subject is like fear because everybody wants to be this like big man. Like I'm a frigging six foot five, 115 kilo guy with like cauliflower ears and everything, like tattoos, the whole lot.

[457] It's pretty difficult to sit here and say like, I'm scared to fight anybody and like have that and be literally the number one heavyweight in the world.

[458] But kind of the realisation of the fear that I've got.

[459] Now that I understand fear and what it is and what it does for me, it just fuels me so much to do what I do.

[460] In MMA, we have terms like a gym warrior, people call it, like someone who spars in the gym really, really well.

[461] And then they get under the lights and they don't fight anywhere near what they do in the gym.

[462] Now, generally speaking, that is because they don't understand fear properly.

[463] And I think I've got in a place where I completely understand.

[464] that fear fuels me in a way that nothing else can fuel me and I'm completely comfortable with it.

[465] I'm super intrigued by this, so I want to talk about this.

[466] This idea of fear, but also the journey that you've been on with fear.

[467] Yeah.

[468] So have you always been fearful to fight people?

[469] And I think that if you're not, you're either lying to yourself or you're a complete idiot.

[470] Yeah.

[471] I think if you are going to sit in an arena...

[472] And the arena's packed to the rims with 20 plus thousand people.

[473] And there's another guy over the other side of the arena waiting to fight you who's trained for the last 10 weeks.

[474] And you've got to meet him in the centre of the octagon with millions of people watching around the world and know that you can get separated from your own consciousness and you're not scared.

[475] You're either lying to yourself or you're just a complete idiot.

[476] With your mum watching for the first time.

[477] Yeah, I mean, I see you guys do the walkouts and I'm just like, wow.

[478] Yeah, it's crazy.

[479] It's hard to ever comment on someone being good or bad at something that it takes that much courage to do that I've clearly not demonstrated in my own life.

[480] So fear.

[481] So you've always been scared to, you've always had fear when faced with an opponent.

[482] But you also alluded to the fact that there's work that you've done to overcome that fear or to put it into perspective, I guess.

[483] What's that work?

[484] The gym warrior and the guy who's under the lights can be two different people, and I've seen it a lot over the years.

[485] I've seen it so much.

[486] I still see it now.

[487] I still see it all the time.

[488] See, when you train, this is my personal opinion.

[489] This is not facts, but this is my personal opinion.

[490] I would say the training aspect is probably around 80 % physical and 20 % mental, the training aspect.

[491] On fight night, when you are in that arena, and you have got them bright lights beaming down on you and you can hear the crowd going crazy and you know that there's millions of people watching you.

[492] You've got them tiny gloves on.

[493] There's another massive guy stood across from you with his shirt off.

[494] I believe it completely flips and becomes about 80 plus percent mental.

[495] I remember somebody, I actually can't remember who it was, it might have even been on a podcast or something, saying, look, we spend all this time...

[496] preparing physically, because to be an MMA fighter, you have to dedicate a lot of time, and I mean a lot of time to preparing physically.

[497] So that can be, you know, I train around about between three and five hours a day, possibly, on the physical training, and that's not to mention the stretching, the eating, the sleeping, the physio, the saunas, all the other stuff that comes with becoming a good athlete.

[498] So I'm probably dedicating a solid, most of the 24 hours a day, if you're going to...

[499] count sleeping as well, which I believe is a part of being a professional athlete, is dedicated to me becoming the best version, an athlete of myself as possible.

[500] Now you're dedicating all that time to training physically.

[501] How much are you dedicating to mental, the mental aspect?

[502] And if you would ask most fighters, especially at the top level, you're talking top 10 guys in the world.

[503] What do you think is the most important aspect, the physical side or the mental side?

[504] I will guarantee at least 50 % of them guys would say the mental side.

[505] Now, if you're comparing mental and physical, we're spending this much time on the physical side, but this much time on the mental side, next to nothing.

[506] And I could see a massive discrepancy in that, and I wanted to bring the mental side up.

[507] So you're in the mental gym too?

[508] All the time.

[509] And what is that?

[510] A lot of visualisation.

[511] Okay, so talk me through this.

[512] I want as much detail as possible.

[513] Okay, okay.

[514] So I work with a hypnotherapist, which I think is very important.

[515] I write stuff down.

[516] I have stuff where I can see it.

[517] I'll look at that a lot.

[518] Even stuff like, I'm just a massive daydreamer.

[519] Massive daydreamer.

[520] And I can just see in my mind clearly.

[521] This is something that's programmed into me for years and years.

[522] It's almost like mental.

[523] See, in MMA, we have a term, and I don't know if this goes across the board, but we call it drilling.

[524] So, like, if there's a technique, if you're practicing like a one -two and you're doing it repeatedly, you call it drilling.

[525] You're drilling a one -two.

[526] Drilling is like repetition, repetition.

[527] I, like, mentally drill situations.

[528] So when you're talking about the walkout, when I'm physically walking out, mentally I've walked out.

[529] 10 ,000 times before I've actually physically walked out.

[530] So by the time I'm there physically, I've been there so many times mentally that it feels quite normal to me. And then I constantly tell myself that I've got to enjoy it because I'm completely aware now, especially, I'm closer to the end than the beginning now, definitely.

[531] I don't know when I'm going to retire.

[532] I have no plans to retire right now, but I'm definitely closer to the end than the beginning.

[533] And the moments that we have, these walkout moments, These fear moments of being stood in the cage with another guy who stood in the cage with me. And we know that once these officials get out of the ring and they close that cage, we are going to fight.

[534] And someone is going to win or someone's going to lose.

[535] Those are really special moments.

[536] And you have to enjoy them.

[537] Because when I'm 60 years old and hopefully I've got grandkids and I want to be telling them about these special moments and not wishing them away and really, really enjoying them.

[538] And that's something that mentally...

[539] I try and practice being in the moment and enjoying it a lot.

[540] And I feel like a lot of fighters, they're just so stressed about the end result that they can't even focus on enjoying themselves in the right now.

[541] And I know for me personally, when I'm enjoying myself, that's when I do my best.

[542] So I want to enjoy myself.

[543] I want to talk to you about a few things you said there.

[544] You talked about visualisation was what you mentioned first and writing things down.

[545] What kind of things do you write down?

[546] And what's your whole process there?

[547] Because I'm sure there's people at home that would love to understand some of these practices so that they can implement them in their own life.

[548] And then also speak to the value that it's brought to your life doing these kind of things.

[549] You talk about visualisation.

[550] People think about this like weird woo -woo kind of thing, sitting there with crystals on you and weird music and meditating.

[551] It's not like that.

[552] It's as simple as getting a piece of paper, writing down, this week I will do this and enjoy it.

[553] That's as simple as that.

[554] That's all I do.

[555] This year, I will win two fights.

[556] I will enjoy both of them and I will perform to my best.

[557] And just reading it every so often.

[558] And how often do you do that?

[559] Is it something you do at the start of the year or is it?

[560] Just like sporadically, really.

[561] I'm not the kind of guy who goes, right, at the beginning of the year, this is my visualisation board or anything like that.

[562] Not that there's anything wrong with that.

[563] That's just not what I do personally.

[564] When I feel like writing stuff, I'll write it and most of the time I've got it in my bedside table or I've got it somewhere that I can see it and I'll pick it up, I'll read it a few times, the same sentence, I'll put it down and I feel like it's in there.

[565] I wrote recently that things are working for me because I'm in a really weird situation with my career that I've never really been before where there's a lot of politics involved in my kind of next move.

[566] With John Jones.

[567] Yeah, I think I said to you off camera, he's like, usually it's like, right, get off of the fight, work towards the fight, fight, fight's over, little bit of downtime, another fight, work towards that, fight, over, blah, blah, blah.

[568] Whereas now I'm just kind of like a little bit in limbo when I don't know what's happening.

[569] And I'm just like, oh, usually I'm used to having my life mapped out as to when.

[570] I need to dedicate more time to this and what training partners come in there and what I need to focus on.

[571] But now I'm just in a little bit limbo where I don't know really what's going on.

[572] And I wanted to really write down just to solidify that all this is happening.

[573] Because I think when you are in those kind of situations, I know me personally, I start to like conspire in my own, like that everyone's conspiring against me. Like, oh, this is not working out for me. And I start thinking negatively, but...

[574] I think sometimes you've just got to write down, like, this is going to be all right.

[575] Whatever's happening right now, I don't know what it is, and I don't know.

[576] I can't fix it personally because it's nothing to do with me. But I know it's going to end up all right, and it's going to work out for me. So a couple of weeks ago, I remember just writing that down, putting it in the thing next to my bed.

[577] And sometimes when I'm waking up, I'm feeling a bit stressed.

[578] I'll just read it, put it away, and then that's it.

[579] So any moment, maybe today, maybe now, maybe your phone upstairs could have a text message on it from Dana White saying, we're good to go.

[580] Yeah, pretty much.

[581] I am now, like, training.

[582] I mean, I'm always training anyway.

[583] Training's a massive part of my life, but I could get a text at any moment telling me I'm going to fight in six weeks, and that would be amazing.

[584] And it would be the biggest fight of all time.

[585] Yeah, but I don't think that's going to happen because they are giving it that.

[586] It's definitely, in my opinion, there's a few massive fights to be made at the moment in MMA.

[587] But I think as far as thirst from fans, this is the one that people want to see the most.

[588] When I say that, does it make you nervous?

[589] Everything I just said and when I said it was the biggest fight of all time.

[590] I love it.

[591] Yeah?

[592] Yeah, that's what I want to do.

[593] Yeah, that's what I want to be involved with.

[594] Yeah, that's why we do this thing.

[595] I have had a lot of fights that nobody cared about, in all honesty.

[596] I've had a lot of fights.

[597] I think people don't realise, like, they see me and other guys at the top of their division.

[598] You know, we're travelling the world, we're making money, we're winning titles, we're doing all this good stuff.

[599] Honestly, most of my fights, there was 100 people there and I came away with 100 quid cash and nobody gave a shit either way.

[600] Yeah, and that's the realisation of it.

[601] Like, MMA is such a tough sport too.

[602] Like a lot of kids, not a lot of kids, but a lot of parents, if I meet a parent on the street who's kids involved in MMA or whatever, a lot of the time will say like, oh, what advice have you got for that?

[603] And in all honesty, a lot of the time I'm like, have a backup plan because it's so difficult to make any money out of, or any, like, I was saying I'm going to an event tomorrow actually.

[604] It's a local show.

[605] I was a amateur champion on the show.

[606] It's a great show, do you know what I mean?

[607] There'll be a couple of thousand people there tomorrow.

[608] And it's got a big fight card.

[609] Like, there's maybe 20 fights on.

[610] So there's 40 fighters fighting tomorrow night.

[611] I'm going to it.

[612] And I was chatting to my friend last night, actually.

[613] He said, oh, is there anyone decent on the card?

[614] I said, yeah, yeah, there's a couple of guys on.

[615] And he said, oh, will anybody go to the UFC?

[616] And we just got chatting about that and how that looks and how it looks to get in the UFC.

[617] And I said, to be honest with you, if one person out of the 40 can buy a house from MMA, I would be very surprised.

[618] And that's one in 40 decent level.

[619] Like, it's just so hard to make a living out of MMA.

[620] There is absolutely no career path to doing it, really, especially in this country.

[621] Like, it's getting tougher and tougher, and I'm trying to raise as much awareness about MMA as possible.

[622] I want...

[623] to be able to look at guys like me and other guys and be like, if he's making a career out of it, I can.

[624] But it is so hard in this country, that's why I'm doing as much as I can to try and get this thing as mainstream as possible.

[625] I mean, even in the UK, if I think there's been, what, hundreds of thousands of kids that probably practised MMA over the last couple of years, and how many of them really get to the point where they could buy a house from it?

[626] You can name them, like, you...

[627] Conor McGregor, Ian Gary, Paddy Pimlet.

[628] Leon Edwards is another big one.

[629] I mean, there's definitely guys who have made a lot of money out of it and have a good living.

[630] But honestly, I've been around gyms all my life and I would say 95 % of people have never made more than five grand for a fight.

[631] How much were you getting paid throughout your amateur career?

[632] Because you were an amateur fighter up until the point where you basically ran out of people you could fight.

[633] Yeah.

[634] I think he had nine amateur fights, right?

[635] Nine, which at the time was quite a lot.

[636] I would always recommend get as much experience as you can as an amateur before you move on to pro.

[637] But yeah, so as an amateur, I was obviously getting ticket money.

[638] So the way it worked when I was fighting as an amateur, at least, it was like if you would sell a ticket for 30 quid, you would get a fiver of it.

[639] So the promoters would work off that like a little percentage thing going.

[640] So of those nine amateur fights, how much do you think you...

[641] All together?

[642] I was maybe making between 50 and 100 quid a fight.

[643] Okay, so that's nearly a grand.

[644] Yeah, nearly a grand on that.

[645] And then you had a professional run as well.

[646] Was it seven fights as a professional in MMA?

[647] Before I got to the...

[648] I have no idea.

[649] Before I got to the UFC, probably, yeah, maybe seven, yeah.

[650] Got it done as seven.

[651] So I remember my first pro fight, I got 200 quid.

[652] Okay, so you doubled.

[653] Doubled it.

[654] Smashing it.

[655] I was absolutely smashing it then.

[656] So that's, yeah, another...

[657] So you probably made two grand or something there.

[658] And then the UFC pays much better.

[659] Much better.

[660] Much better.

[661] Which is when you can start to make a living from it.

[662] Yeah, I mean, they start off pretty good.

[663] The thing...

[664] I'm really lucky in the fact that I've got a fan -friendly style.

[665] So people want to see me fight, especially heavyweights.

[666] People want to see...

[667] A lot of the people, like, who are not...

[668] They've not got a technically trained eye.

[669] They want to see two guys punching each other and one guy unconscious.

[670] That's the brutality of it and that's the reality of it.

[671] And my style, generally speaking, brings that.

[672] Well, I mean, generally speaking, don't you hold the world record for the average fastest time that a fight ends?

[673] Yes, yeah.

[674] Which is pretty crazy.

[675] I mean, that's why you're such a draw, right?

[676] Because you're knocking everyone out within two minutes on average.

[677] Yep, yep.

[678] I progress through contracts and money quite quickly because of my style, but not everybody does.

[679] So generally speaking, in the UFC, you get what's called show money, which is your money to show up.

[680] Which is, what can you tell me?

[681] Usually it's $10 ,000.

[682] Yeah.

[683] And, I mean, people's contracts are different, but I'm just speaking generally.

[684] People start off at 10 and 10.

[685] They get show money, win money.

[686] So generally speaking, and this varies amongst, you know, if someone's got a career in another big organisation, sometimes they'll sign in for more than that.

[687] But I was coming off a regional show, so I think I either got 10 and 10 or 12 and 12, I can't remember.

[688] But generally speaking, it's like you get your show money, which is between 10 and 15K dollars, and then your win bonus is double your show money usually.

[689] 10 and 10, 12 and 12, 15 and 15.

[690] For how long are you on that contract?

[691] They usually do four fights.

[692] Okay.

[693] But the thing is, they can terminate that at any time.

[694] So if you're in like a fight that's boring, it's a bit of a stinker.

[695] Even if you win, they can just be like, yeah, we're done.

[696] Done with that.

[697] Interesting.

[698] Yeah.

[699] So if it's four fights, you're getting 10 and 10, you could earn, that's 80K.

[700] If you win, you usually go up.

[701] So it'd be like 10 and 10, 12 and 12.

[702] 14 and 14, 16 and 16, something like that.

[703] Okay.

[704] The low end is you can make 80K from those first.

[705] Yeah.

[706] But if you lose, you're just getting 10.

[707] That's the...

[708] Oh, yeah, you can make 40K.

[709] Yeah, and generally speaking, like, if you go 10 and 10, you win.

[710] You go 12 and 12, you win.

[711] You go 14 and 14, but you lose that one, you go back to 12 and 12.

[712] Does that make sense?

[713] Okay.

[714] But if you have an exciting style and the UFC like you...

[715] I'm very lucky because I'm from the UK, and people from the UK get behind the fighters a lot of the time, and I'm very lucky that I've got that myself.

[716] So I did 10 and 10, and then I think 12 and 12, if I remember rightly, and then they re -signed me then because they had two first -round finishes.

[717] So they re -signed me for a bigger contract then, which is great, and then they re -signed me for another four fights, and then you win a couple more in exciting fashion.

[718] You can get bigger contracts.

[719] You don't have to stay for the four.

[720] So, after two fights, you got a new deal?

[721] Yes.

[722] And that drastically changes the money?

[723] Yes.

[724] Yeah.

[725] Like, still in the 10s?

[726] Still in the 10s.

[727] Yeah, yeah, still in the 10s.

[728] Bigger 10s, 50s.

[729] Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[730] Because I thought it was 50.

[731] I thought someone like Ian Gary, who came in from, what's the organization he came in?

[732] Cage Warriors.

[733] Cage Warriors.

[734] I also came in from Cage Warriors.

[735] Oh, okay.

[736] So he must have been, I thought he was on 50.

[737] I mean, he might have been.

[738] It's a different time, though.

[739] Yeah, maybe he was.

[740] I don't know.

[741] Like I say, it varies from person to person.

[742] But from my experience, I came in.

[743] It was either 10 and 10 or 12 and 12.

[744] I can't remember exactly.

[745] And when does the big six -figure show money begin?

[746] So I got a good contract because I took the title fight on two weeks' notice.

[747] So I was in a bit of a position there where I could kind of save the card because there was a title fight on the card.

[748] somebody pulled out, they asked me to step in.

[749] So, you know, I was in a position that the UFC was kind of like needed me a little bit then.

[750] So, but to answer the question, everyone's different with that.

[751] But with the money aspect, it's like when you start becoming popular and winning fights, when people want to see you, basically, that's, it's just as much about, do people want to watch you fight?

[752] That's, that's like a bit, it's not just about winning fights.

[753] Winning fights is...

[754] extremely important, but you've got to make people want to see you.

[755] So that was against Sergei Pavlovich.

[756] That's right.

[757] That was in the end of 2023.

[758] Yes.

[759] November.

[760] And that was your first six -figure payday because you took that massive fight on short notice.

[761] Yes.

[762] It was your biggest payday.

[763] It was my biggest payday.

[764] At the time, I got a bigger one in my last fight.

[765] But it was your biggest payday up until that point.

[766] By far.

[767] By far.

[768] By how much far?

[769] By a...

[770] More than double.

[771] More than double, okay.

[772] And that was a six -figure payday?

[773] Yes.

[774] Okay.

[775] The reason why that's so surprising and interesting is because you were fighting at that point for the interim heavyweight title.

[776] Yeah.

[777] So I'm thinking about those kids back in Salford.

[778] Yeah.

[779] And if they want to get a life -threatening six -figure, because that's what it is, six -figure payday, then the journey that you went on is from the age of, what, seven years old?

[780] Seven, eight, something like that, yeah.

[781] Until you were 30 years old.

[782] Yeah.

[783] So 23 years for you to get a six -figure payday from a heavyweight UFC title.

[784] It's a long time.

[785] It's a lot of work.

[786] Yeah.

[787] It's a whole lot of work.

[788] Yeah.

[789] I was thinking about your story arc. And if you were to like paint it on a graph, like draw on a graph, am I right in thinking it's like...

[790] slow, flat, and then quite sudden.

[791] Oh, yeah, there's a lot of that going on.

[792] They say, don't they, something like it takes years to become an overnight success or whatever, and that's exactly what I'm dealing with, yeah.

[793] Really?

[794] Yeah, it's crazy.

[795] Like you say, I've been going since I was eight years old, and the stuff that I've gone through in that time is unbelievable.

[796] I'm a massive believer in, like, just outlasting people, like just being consistent.

[797] and outlasting people a lot of the time overtakes anything else.

[798] Like there's so many times, and a lot of it is down to my dad as well.

[799] He's like, I wanted to quit and he's just reminded, don't get me wrong, I have quit a couple of times with MMA.

[800] And it's been like, Tom, I think you really need to think about this because you've been spending your whole life doing it.

[801] Like, don't quit now.

[802] You know what I mean?

[803] There's been a lot of that from my dad.

[804] And I think a lot of other dads would have just been like, yeah, you've done enough now.

[805] You've tried your best.

[806] Just leave it at that.

[807] Whereas it's always been, you know, my dad's always believed in me. And my mum as well, not just my dad.

[808] And a lot of close people around me as well, to be honest.

[809] I'm very lucky in that regard that people have pushed me to continue, which is great.

[810] When was the first time you quit?

[811] I've quit quite a lot of times, mate, to be honest.

[812] A lot of different reasons.

[813] Some of the reasons.

[814] Injuries.

[815] Yeah.

[816] Tough.

[817] Very, very tough to deal with injuries as a professional athlete.

[818] Not getting regular fights is also tough.

[819] See, now I'm like, I was complaining to you a minute ago about, I'm not going to fight this, that, and the other.

[820] But I'm going to get a fight.

[821] The thirst from the fans is there.

[822] The UFC want me to fight.

[823] I've got a belt I've got to defend.

[824] We've got to unify this.

[825] There's millions of dollars at stake here.

[826] I'm going to fight soon.

[827] I don't know when it's going to be.

[828] But at one point, nobody cared if I fought or not.

[829] And I had no money.

[830] And that, I think the toughest time for me was, so I had my first kid when I was 23.

[831] My wife was pregnant when she was 22, when we were 22.

[832] I had my first kid at 23.

[833] And then when I was 24, We found out that she was pregnant again, which I'm very happy about, of course.

[834] I don't want to seem like it's a negative thing.

[835] And that we're having twins.

[836] And we had the twins.

[837] Everything's great.

[838] And I had no money.

[839] And I mean, I didn't have any money at all.

[840] And I'm like living on this dream of me. becoming this global superstar with these millions of pounds in the bank and with these titles and travelling.

[841] I'm living on that dream.

[842] But I'm in Atherton, in Greater Manchester.

[843] It's raining outside.

[844] I can't afford to put fuel in my car and I've got three kids upstairs crying.

[845] Do you know what I mean?

[846] That's what I was on.

[847] And I really felt like, at the time, I don't want to say like I'm some big masculine guy or anything, but I felt a little bit...

[848] demasculated, if that's right.

[849] I felt like I'm here with this wife and kids and I ain't providing nothing.

[850] Like, and that was really tough for me mentally at that time where I'm like, how am I going to provide for all these people?

[851] Like, I got to do something else because, and I felt, I don't think that people around me were like, Tom's living in a dream world.

[852] He needs to get a proper job and earn some money for his family and kids.

[853] I don't think people, because there was a lot of people around me who actually believed in the dream as well, which is amazing.

[854] But I felt the pressure.

[855] I felt like people felt like that a little bit, even if they weren't saying it.

[856] So that, I think, for me, was the toughest time for me, I think, is when, just after I've had my kids...

[857] I'm away training every day.

[858] I'm barely spending any time at home.

[859] When I am spending time at home, I'm completely exhausted from training.

[860] The kids have me up all the time.

[861] They're crying.

[862] My wife's not happy.

[863] I've got no money.

[864] I train all this time, go to fight, then it gets cancelled a week before.

[865] Do you know what I mean?

[866] That was really, really tough to deal with at the time.

[867] How do you, from a mental health perspective, how were you during that season of life?

[868] Not great.

[869] Very, very tough.

[870] I think...

[871] First of all, I mean, everybody's different, but having three kids at the age of 25 is quite tough.

[872] I don't think I was, well, I wouldn't change it for the world.

[873] I absolutely love being a dad, love my kids to death.

[874] They're the most important thing in my life.

[875] I wouldn't change it for the world.

[876] But I think now looking back at me like seven years ago, having three children, I don't know how I did it.

[877] It was really, really tough.

[878] Like, I think that's really young and like...

[879] I was very underdeveloped mentally to have that kind of responsibility and raise children and a family and a house and have a wife and try and get my career off the ground.

[880] Like, it was really, really tough at the time.

[881] So I think I was just in survival mode, to be honest with you.

[882] Actually, it's funny you should say, because I've been having these conversations recently with a couple of friends.

[883] It's like, my friend now is having twins.

[884] He just found out.

[885] He asked me, what's it like?

[886] And I said, to be honest with you, I'm going to be really honest because I pride myself as an honest person.

[887] It was the hardest thing I've ever done.

[888] I can't even remember the first year.

[889] And I can't because it was so difficult.

[890] And it wasn't just the twins.

[891] It was also the money situation.

[892] In fact, my career's not going anywhere.

[893] The stress I was under.

[894] Just trying to be a young guy but having all this responsibility on me. But like I said, I absolutely wouldn't change it for the world.

[895] It's literally shaped me into the person that I am today.

[896] And I'm really, really proud of where I am now.

[897] But at the time, it was very tough for me mentally.

[898] Was there a hardest moment that you reflect on?

[899] Because sometimes when we think back to our lives, we can remember like a vivid rock bottom where something happened.

[900] We went to put petrol in the car or when we were alone and our mind started saying dark things to us.

[901] Was there a rock bottom in that period of life?

[902] I was still aware of how lucky I was to have three beautiful children and still be chasing the dream that I was on.

[903] But I think I just hated owing anybody money.

[904] I felt like I just hate going to people and asking them for money.

[905] That was my worst nightmare, and I had to borrow a lot of money off my dad.

[906] I had to borrow some money off friends just to put fuel in the car to get to the gym to be.

[907] living in what I thought at the time was like a make -believe.

[908] I didn't think it was a make -believe dream, but I feel like the people on the outside thought, what is he doing?

[909] What is this guy doing?

[910] He needs to look after his family.

[911] I felt that a lot.

[912] And a lot of that might have just been in my own psyche, to be honest with you.

[913] A lot of it, I don't think, came from my close circle.

[914] But I remember having to borrow money from friends to put fuel in my car.

[915] buying nappies for my kids and stuff like that, just so I can, like, keep living on this dream of having a fight in six weeks, getting 600 quid and being able to give them 20 quid back.

[916] Like, that was, I thought it was tough.

[917] Does that not put a lot of pressure on the relationship?

[918] Because, I mean, bloody hell, relationships are hard enough without twins, another child, and everything else that makes life and relationships difficult.

[919] So it's quite remarkable that, you know...

[920] Being in a relationship is not easy in any regard.

[921] Being in a relationship and sharing your life with somebody isn't easy.

[922] Yeah, it did.

[923] But you know what?

[924] We got through it and we're really strong.

[925] And I'm really happy with the family unit that we've built.

[926] I try and be the best dad that I can be.

[927] That's more important than anything else to me is just spending time and making my kids as good as I can.

[928] And I'm aware that as a dad and as a parent, you can't...

[929] control as such what your kids, you can't mould a kid into what you want it to be.

[930] You can't say like, because I've got three kids and they're all completely different.

[931] They're all brought up exactly the same, but they're all completely different.

[932] And you can never say, this is what my kid's going to be and this is who he's going to be and how he's going to be.

[933] But just to be able to hopefully bring some kind of positive outlook on their life and hopefully give them a positive experience on this earth is what I'm looking to do.

[934] Your partner, you're married to Justina.

[935] Yeah.

[936] Did she understand?

[937] She understands more than anybody.

[938] Yeah, absolutely.

[939] Yeah.

[940] If it wasn't for her, my dad, my mum, a couple of friends around, I would have been, yeah, I would have been a mess.

[941] Absolute mess, yeah.

[942] She was very understanding because I know that most women, they would have been putting the pressure on big time.

[943] Yeah, she was, because when we met, I've been with her since I was 19.

[944] She was 19, also we're the same age.

[945] That was my dream.

[946] From the beginning.

[947] So she like got on board with that.

[948] And she's kept me, she's stopped me from quitting a lot of times as well.

[949] She's stopped me from quitting so many times, yeah.

[950] This sport's tough.

[951] And like I said, there's no, so in football, for example, I know a little bit about football.

[952] You start from a grassroots team as a kid, then you go to an academy and then you can get signed at the age of like 12, 13 and start playing for the under 13s and professional club.

[953] And there's a place where you can go.

[954] And obviously football's a tough game.

[955] They can cut you off like that as well.

[956] But at least there's a career path of what you're going to do and where you're going to go.

[957] Whereas MMA, you're basically shooting in the dark for 95 % of it.

[958] And I'm very lucky to have people like my wife, my family, my mum and dad and the people around me who believe in me as well.

[959] Yeah, I mean, we started talking about this because of that kind of graph of your career where it's kind of flat relative to what then happened and then quick all of a sudden.

[960] And even when you think about the financials, it's like very, very...

[961] And then if you get all the right forces behind you in terms of like personality and timing, and then someone drops out here, you get the interim shot, you win, then things take off.

[962] And it's also remarkable to me that it's happened in such a short period of time relative to how long you've been doing this.

[963] Because when I looked down and I saw that this was 2023, that you got that shot, you're kind of a new face on the scene to some degree relative to some of these other guys.

[964] Definitely, definitely.

[965] I think the new generation is definitely coming in now.

[966] Like the old guard, the old champions are kind of, they're at the back end of the career and now it's time for new guys, which is that's progression.

[967] That's great.

[968] Quick one.

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[976] So Tom, there's this black box in front of me, which contains something which represents a pivotal moment in your career.

[977] What is in the box?

[978] We'll remove the belt.

[979] I mean, it's not, I'll be honest, mate, it's not that exciting.

[980] Interesting.

[981] It probably stinks as well.

[982] You can probably smell it from over there.

[983] I'm okay.

[984] It's clean, actually.

[985] It's not too bad.

[986] This is a knee pad.

[987] Okay.

[988] What is the story behind the knee pad?

[989] Why did you bring that?

[990] So, first of all, I've had a knee problem for a long time.

[991] I started the knee problem when we were talking about the things that we've just been talking about, the financial struggles, and I knew that I was never kind of like one.

[992] Two fights away from getting to the UFC.

[993] So I wanted to train through the knee problems.

[994] Then I got to the UFC.

[995] I'm training.

[996] I fight.

[997] I win.

[998] Oh, my knee's all right.

[999] I'm doing pretty well here.

[1000] I can fight with one knee.

[1001] Fight again.

[1002] I win.

[1003] Then I get a new contract.

[1004] And then...

[1005] They offered me another fight.

[1006] I don't want to say no to the UFC.

[1007] I'm on this roll.

[1008] I've still got this bad knee.

[1009] I'm training with one leg.

[1010] You're training with one leg?

[1011] Yeah, I've trained with one leg for a long time.

[1012] Yeah, pretty much.

[1013] I never kicked with the leg.

[1014] I never went on the knee ever or anything like that.

[1015] Anyway, this kept going and going.

[1016] I was fighting with one leg.

[1017] Then, the most devastating thing that happened in my whole career was my knee just give out in front of 25 ,000 home fans.

[1018] in the auto arena in London, in what was a title eliminator fight.

[1019] So if either of us would have won that fight, we would have got a title shot next.

[1020] So it's a massive fight with title implications.

[1021] And not only did I lose the fight because of the injury, losing the fight is one thing.

[1022] If I go in there, I have a good fight.

[1023] I show off all my training, but I get knocked out, for example.

[1024] Even though I'm going to be sad that I've lost the fight, I am relatively satisfied that I went in there.

[1025] I had a go, came up short.

[1026] I can live with that.

[1027] Whereas with the knee, I went in there, got injured straight away.

[1028] The knee was down.

[1029] I couldn't walk.

[1030] I had surgery, and then...

[1031] I was unsure whether my career was going to be over or not.

[1032] And that was a massive, massive turning point in my life, not just in my career, but in my life.

[1033] That really, really gave me a chance to think and slow down and figure out what's important and what isn't.

[1034] And that all came because of one of the biggest, worst thing that's happened in my life, but one of the most important things as well.

[1035] I got the most growth.

[1036] from that knee injury than I've got from anything else in my life, I think.

[1037] What kind of growth emerged from that?

[1038] At the time, I was doing a lot of things wrong in my personal life and in my professional life.

[1039] Like, I had a lot of people around me that shouldn't have been there.

[1040] I was doing some training sessions and training with people that I shouldn't have really been training with.

[1041] I wasn't living a good lifestyle in terms of diet.

[1042] My recovery, I wasn't 100 % focused and I should have been, but because everything was going so well and I'm a little bit superstitious, I didn't want to change anything because I'm like, well, it's going well.

[1043] I don't want to start changing it.

[1044] And I knew that there was a lot of things wrong.

[1045] I knew that there were people that I shouldn't have been surrounding myself with.

[1046] I knew that there were training sessions that were just wasting my time really and there were toxic people around me that shouldn't have been there and they needed to go, but I didn't want to.

[1047] change everything because it was all going so well.

[1048] And when you talk about like a rock bottom moment, when you sat on the floor of the UFC Octagon in the O2 Arena with your leg up in the air and there's 25 ,000 people who are there for you start leaving the building, it's a bad feeling.

[1049] It's a really bad feeling.

[1050] So that really made me like reassess.

[1051] some of the decisions that I was making at the time.

[1052] And the Tom Aspinall before and after that moment?

[1053] Completely different people.

[1054] I feel like I completely rebuilt myself, not only physically, because I think you can look at me physically in fights before and see a physical change, just in terms of my physique and the way I'm moving around.

[1055] Obviously, I had one leg before and I've got two legs now, which is way better.

[1056] But mentally, the growth has been enormous.

[1057] is that I completely cut out anything negative that was in my life.

[1058] Anything or anyone that wasn't serving me to run parallel with my journey, to becoming the best heavyweight in the world, I completely cut off.

[1059] Why?

[1060] Because I was so superstitious, I think.

[1061] But why was it so important for you to remove those people at that particular moment?

[1062] As an athlete, I needed to...

[1063] And not only as an athlete, as a man, I needed to really slow down.

[1064] Because I was on this, like, fast track.

[1065] It's like I got in the UFC and it was just like, fight, fight, fight.

[1066] And every time it's, like, more and more popular, more interviews, more media, more fame, more money, more this, that.

[1067] And I didn't really have time to, like, assess really what was around me. I didn't have time to, like, start cutting people off and start changing this and tweaking this and doing...

[1068] I just...

[1069] didn't see it because i was on this like i was just going and going and going and when i had that and next minute i'm sat on the couch for six months with this big cut on my leg i can't walk i'm doing physio and doing all the rest of it and um yeah i just feel like as an athlete and a man i really had that time to slow down and really assess my life and be like this isn't working it needs to change that was actually the closest point where I was pretty close to throwing in the towel then, to be honest, on my career.

[1070] Because at that point, I'd not made mega money or anything, but I'd made enough money to be comfortable.

[1071] And I bought a house at that time.

[1072] I'd made some decent money, but nothing life -changing.

[1073] But I'd made enough money to then, I don't know, be living my life to an all right standard for however long.

[1074] And I was like, well, I'm financially comfortable now.

[1075] I've had some fights in the UFC.

[1076] I've had some success.

[1077] I think I was just outside the top five at that time or something, maybe top ten.

[1078] No, I've gone way further than a lot of people have done.

[1079] Maybe I'll just leave it there.

[1080] Was there an element of you that wondered if the public would ever want to see you again?

[1081] Oh, of course.

[1082] Yeah, yeah.

[1083] Of course.

[1084] Yeah, definitely.

[1085] Because I didn't have an actual fight, I felt like people thought I faked the injury or something.

[1086] So I think a lot of people thought...

[1087] He didn't really want to be in there with that opponent.

[1088] Especially my opponent at the time, Curtis Blades, he was running through everybody.

[1089] And I felt like a lot of people were like, Tom just didn't want to fight.

[1090] So I felt very insecure about myself at the time.

[1091] When I came back, I really had a chip on my shoulder and I still got it.

[1092] I want to prove to everybody that I am the best heavyweight in the world.

[1093] You got six months on the sofa.

[1094] Did you read things people are saying?

[1095] I try not to, but I always do.

[1096] I try not to, but...

[1097] Yeah, but I think it's quite healthy in a way, though, as well.

[1098] I think that fuelled me a lot as well, is that people started quitting on me and stuff.

[1099] And a lot of people, even people were like, yeah, you've got a lot of ways to make money now.

[1100] You've already done loads of media.

[1101] You're good on the mic and stuff.

[1102] You can maybe be a pundit and stuff like that.

[1103] For a time, I was like, yeah, maybe I can.

[1104] Maybe I can just be a pundit.

[1105] I've been in there.

[1106] I've main evented a couple of times and stuff.

[1107] I've fought almost the elite level.

[1108] Yeah, maybe I can just do that.

[1109] But then I started reading these negative comments, and I was like, actually, I want to fight.

[1110] What is this?

[1111] Where am I going?

[1112] I'm letting these regular people.

[1113] speak like talk to me and put regular thoughts in my mind and I'm not a regular person so I'm an elite special athlete and I always have that belief in myself that I'm not regular and I don't want to be regular and I can't let regular people tell me how to how to function and I was almost at the point where I was letting regular people tell me how to function and the kind of like online But haters spurred me to be like, nah, I've got to come back and win this title.

[1114] There's no chance this is going to be the end of me. Did it knock your confidence at all?

[1115] No. Even though the nature of the loss, and it's your first and only loss in the UFC, and you went on to beat this guy in a rematch, did it knock your confidence at all, even though it was via injury?

[1116] Yeah.

[1117] No, no, because I was really particular that...

[1118] So there was two things that I really wanted to do.

[1119] After the fight, so I lost to a guy called Curtis Blades.

[1120] That's when he injured my knee.

[1121] In 15 seconds.

[1122] In 15 seconds, yeah, right at the beginning of the fight.

[1123] So I wanted to fight Curtis again.

[1124] That was really important to me is that I fight him again because I can't function as a human being knowing that I trained for a fight and didn't actually fight somebody.

[1125] If I would have lost, at least I can look myself in the mirror and be like, I tried my best.

[1126] That's all I can do.

[1127] But I seriously had unfinished business.

[1128] And the other thing was that the injury happened at the O2 arena, which from anyone from the UK knows that that is like a prestigious arena.

[1129] If you're a UFC fighter and you're English, you want to fight at the O2, especially headline the O2.

[1130] That's an unbelievable experience.

[1131] And I couldn't then.

[1132] never fight at the O2 arena again.

[1133] I had to fight at the O2.

[1134] Like, they were the two things.

[1135] I wanted to fight Blades again and I wanted to fight at the O2 just so I can, like, mentally just tick them two things off and then move forward.

[1136] And I did both of them and I won both fights, so happy with that.

[1137] Jon Jones.

[1138] Yeah.

[1139] How do you feel about him?

[1140] I'm sick of talking about him.

[1141] I bet you are, yeah, because that's what people want to talk about.

[1142] Yeah, yeah, I mean...

[1143] A lot of people now, they think, like, all Tom does is talk about John.

[1144] And it's not the case.

[1145] I don't want to talk about John, but that's all people ask me about.

[1146] Do you know what I mean?

[1147] Like I said before, it's probably one of the most anticipated fights in UFC history, me and John Jones.

[1148] So, obviously, that's the subject that people want to talk about.

[1149] That's what people are interested in.

[1150] So, John is an absolute legend of the sport, to answer that.

[1151] The way I feel about him personally is quite relevant.

[1152] The stuff that he's done in the UFC, he will be absolutely immortal forever.

[1153] He will always be known as one of the best ever.

[1154] And I really, as a mixed martial arts fan, really, really respect what he's done in the sport.

[1155] Are you fearful of fighting him?

[1156] Oh, absolutely.

[1157] Absolutely.

[1158] I mean, I'd be an idiot otherwise.

[1159] He's the best, one of the best ever.

[1160] Put a pair of UFC gloves on.

[1161] And I think, like I say, regardless of what he's done outside the octagon, and for anyone watching who doesn't know, I am referring to these legal issues that he's got, and that's nothing to do with me. I have no idea about any of that.

[1162] I don't know him personally.

[1163] I think inside the octagon, he is 100 % one of the best people to ever do it.

[1164] What do you admire about Jon Jones?

[1165] in terms of his fighting style.

[1166] He's extremely smart, extremely smart.

[1167] The way he goes about his business in the octagon, but also his business outside the octagon and the match -ups that he's chose for himself.

[1168] Very smart, very, very smart.

[1169] The way that he's chose guys who he matches up stylistically really well with.

[1170] or who are well past the prime.

[1171] I think it's genius.

[1172] I think it's absolute genius.

[1173] Are you saying that he's avoided people that might have beaten?

[1174] I'm not saying that.

[1175] I'm saying that he's chose very well, he's chose very, very wisely the right opponents at the right time, which is super smart.

[1176] So to answer your question, yeah, I probably am saying that.

[1177] So what about his...

[1178] You admire that his sort of fighting IQ?

[1179] Yeah, he's one of the smartest fighters to ever fight.

[1180] Really?

[1181] Yeah.

[1182] Explain that to me like I'm a muggle.

[1183] Okay, okay.

[1184] He has a certain way of making fighters fight his style, if that makes sense.

[1185] So he will constantly keep his opponent guessing with kind of like...

[1186] different things.

[1187] He will always have a style that suits him really well and he will force his opponent to fight that way, if that makes sense.

[1188] Yeah, it does.

[1189] I guess it's kind of difficult if you're uneducated on it, but he has his style and he will never come out of that and risk fighting in somebody else's style ever.

[1190] He will constantly force elite guys.

[1191] to fight his style, which is really, really difficult to do in a technical perspective.

[1192] I kind of saw that against Stipe, I thought.

[1193] Yeah, but Stipe's also 42 years old with a million miles on the clock.

[1194] You have to remember that.

[1195] But you are right.

[1196] You're definitely right.

[1197] But from seeing it up close, because I was almost in touching distance at the octagon, Stipe was more than offbeat in that fight in terms of how far he is away from his prime.

[1198] What is it that Jon Jones is doing there?

[1199] Because you see these great athletes who have their own really clearly defined style and you see them get in the ring with Jon Jones and suddenly their style seems to have vanished or they're scared or he's doing something to keep them on the back foot and outside of their zone of comfort so they can never really get into the rhythm so they play his game.

[1200] What is it he's doing there?

[1201] Well, first of all...

[1202] John Jones is a light heavyweight, so he's now moved up to heavy.

[1203] He's had two -fights heavyweight, but traditionally he's a light heavyweight.

[1204] For a light heavyweight, he's extremely long in terms of wingspan and leg length.

[1205] And when you're that much taller, and this is not – I'm not saying anything about it, but most of the guys he's fought are from middleweight coming up.

[1206] So he's generally the taller guy and keeps people at the end of his reach so well.

[1207] Like his distance management is one of the best ever.

[1208] He does that really well.

[1209] And then when he's moved up to heavyweight, he's fought a guy in Cyril Gann who, no disrespect to him, doesn't have a ground game.

[1210] John Jones is one of the best wrestlers ever in MMA.

[1211] And a 42 -year -old Stipe.

[1212] So he's chose really, really well what he does.

[1213] He just uses his distance management and his timing is incredible.

[1214] The way he uses the attributes that he's got is honestly like from somebody who's studied martial arts from, like I said, eight years old.

[1215] It's almost beautiful for me to watch the way he expresses different techniques under that much pressure against elite competition.

[1216] It's amazing to watch.

[1217] He's got an incredible set of skills in that regard because he can kick, he can punch, he can grapple, he can wrestle.

[1218] I think in today's mixed martial arts, everybody has to do all that.

[1219] Arguably, everybody has to be almost elite in everything.

[1220] The thing that he does really well is he does everything on his terms inside the octagon.

[1221] Everybody can do all the stuff that you just listed, punch, kick, elbow, knee, wrestle, grapple, choke, arm bar, whatever.

[1222] But he does it all on his terms, and that is something that is the elite of the elite.

[1223] And like I say, all of us, all of us, and when I say us, I'm talking about the professional MMA fighter who's had one fight to Jon Jones.

[1224] All of us, everything in between that, can do everything really well.

[1225] You have to be able to, to be able to swim.

[1226] But he just does it on his terms when his opponent is not expecting it, and that is unbelievable.

[1227] So you must...

[1228] be thinking about how you stopped that?

[1229] Oh, absolutely.

[1230] Absolutely.

[1231] It's difficult because I don't want to over -obsess about it because there's no contract with my name and his name signed.

[1232] But in the back of my mind when I'm training, of course, I'm thinking about that kind of stuff.

[1233] But I think what I bring to the table is I'm way bigger than anyone he's ever thought.

[1234] I'm close to my prime.

[1235] I don't think I've reached it quite yet.

[1236] I think I've still got maybe a year or so before I get there.

[1237] And I think I'm just...

[1238] I don't want to say I'm athletically gifted because I've definitely put a lot of work into it.

[1239] But I think when it comes to athleticism for a big guy, I think I'm like, I don't want to sound like I'm blowing my own trumpet, but I'm just being real.

[1240] I think that I am like head and shoulders above any other heavyweight.

[1241] And not only that, my decision making, I think that's the difference is like a lot of people, like any heavyweight, put a pair of gloves on them, they can knock anybody out.

[1242] That goes without saying.

[1243] We're massive guys.

[1244] But my decision -making is elite, like elite, elite.

[1245] It's the best, some of the best in MMA.

[1246] And I hate to sit here with a lot of cameras around me and look you in the face and tell you that.

[1247] But it's the honest truth.

[1248] I believe that.

[1249] I'm also almost in my prime.

[1250] I'm hungry.

[1251] And I bring all these physical and technical attributes to the table, which somebody like, for example, Stipe Milchic, who's 11, 12 years older than me. and a million miles on the clock doesn't bring.

[1252] So when people see your fighting style and they hear that you've got the world record for the lowest average time to end fights, just over two minutes, on average, your fights last before you knock the guy out, they're going to be thinking, right, so Tom's strategy here is he's going to storm Jon Jones and throw that hand and knock him out.

[1253] And Jon Jones is going to be thinking the same.

[1254] Jon Jones is going to be like, right, he's going to try and finish me quick.

[1255] That's his game.

[1256] There's literally a world record that says that's his game.

[1257] I love that.

[1258] Like, if people think that's all I bring to the table, like, I like being a bit of a mystery.

[1259] I absolutely love that.

[1260] Like, there's so much of my game that I've not had the opportunity to show yet.

[1261] And I absolutely love it, you know, when people, like, critique the fact that I've not been into the later rounds or maybe I've not got the conditioning that other guys have got or, look, that's not my problem.

[1262] That's the problem of my opponents.

[1263] They can't deal with what I'm throwing.

[1264] I never, ever go out there to finish the fight quick.

[1265] It just happens.

[1266] And that isn't actually an issue for me. That's the issue for the guy standing across the octagon from me because I have never been in a fight where I'm trying to finish, really.

[1267] I'm just trying to go out there, do my thing, see what comes and see what's what like.

[1268] And the fact that people are doubting what I can do.

[1269] And just because they don't know, because they've not seen it with their own eyes, they think I can't do it, which to me is a humongous advantage, humongous advantage.

[1270] Like John, Jones, for example, is known for his film study.

[1271] Like he loves watching his opponent and seeing how they move, seeing the patterns that they bring up.

[1272] And like, good luck doing that with me, mate, because the footage isn't out there.

[1273] And I think that's...

[1274] Also part of the reason why he's not quick to sign any contracts or to agree on anything.

[1275] Yeah, the money's a factor, of course.

[1276] Yeah, he's right at the end of his career and he might want to retire.

[1277] I don't know.

[1278] I don't know how John's mind works, but definitely somewhere it's an insecurity of his that there isn't any footage out there of me that you can watch for longer than three or four minutes.

[1279] And that is just a humongous advantage for me. Massive.

[1280] Because you finish the fight so quick.

[1281] Yeah, yeah.

[1282] Yeah, there's so much of my game that...

[1283] I've not even been close to showing.

[1284] And I'm very excited to surprise some of these guys when I do show it.

[1285] I can't imagine how many times you must have played over in your head.

[1286] You were talking about drilling earlier, that fight.

[1287] Yeah.

[1288] Talk to me about that.

[1289] Yeah, I've definitely played it a lot.

[1290] But I do that with all opponents, even guys in the division right now who have not got any prospects of fighting at the moment.

[1291] I think about that a lot.

[1292] I think about how I match up physically and mentally with them.

[1293] So if you're playing that over in your head, run me through the tape you're playing.

[1294] Well, that's top secret.

[1295] Is that really the case, that there's a particular strategy that you're replaying in your head over and over again?

[1296] Absolutely.

[1297] But there's one thing that I know for sure.

[1298] This is nailed on, guaranteed.

[1299] And this goes for any human being in the world.

[1300] And this has been proved time and time again, even though sometimes I don't believe that it can happen.

[1301] But now I know if I punch a human being in the face as hard as I can and it lands, they will be unconscious.

[1302] I know it because it's been proved at the elite level multiple times.

[1303] So I need one and that's it.

[1304] Well, I wanted to test that.

[1305] So we've got Jack here.

[1306] I won't punch you, Jack.

[1307] Not today.

[1308] Have you had your punch power tested?

[1309] Yeah, I have had it tested.

[1310] There are guys that have more punch power than me on the machine.

[1311] And probably in real life as well, whatever.

[1312] But I think, I don't want to tell you because I don't want people to watch it and know my secrets.

[1313] I punch people when they're not expecting it, and they're the ones that hurt.

[1314] I disguise it in a certain way.

[1315] I do bits on my YouTube channel and stuff about me explaining techniques and doing different things.

[1316] Now I've got something called a school platform, which I know you had Alex Hormosey on the channel as well, who has shares in school.

[1317] I show different techniques and stuff like that, but I'll never show my game, if that makes sense.

[1318] I'll show a generalisation.

[1319] of what to do and strategy and what to focus on and not.

[1320] But my personal game and what I do for my style, I'll never show it because that's something for only me and my coaches to know.

[1321] And when you think about your routine for those six weeks, what advice can you give to an average person about the health routine that you go through to get into elite shape?

[1322] What are the tips and tricks you've learned that you could impart on me as someone that's not necessarily a fighter?

[1323] Well, something that I'm learning as I'm getting a little bit older.

[1324] and I'm not saying I'm old by any chance, by any stretch of the imagination, but as I'm getting older and I'm getting more, I've been training a long time, even though I'm not up there in age, but I can definitely feel more on my body than I used to, especially being a bigger guy, generally we carry more injuries.

[1325] But I think that if you're training, for example, four hours a day, what I've found is doing at least half of that time recovering, is what I'm aiming to do.

[1326] So however the recovery looks to you, whether that's stretching, breathing exercises, sauna, swimming, steam room, jacuzzi, you know, there's a whole, you Google recovery from exercise, there'll be a million things that you can do.

[1327] But I like to try and do 50 % of my training.

[1328] The easiest way I can say is if I'm training for four hours, I try and do two hours worth of recovery.

[1329] And I think that has helped me a lot, not to mention.

[1330] massively, massively underrated.

[1331] And as a heavyweight, I can kind of eat what I want, really, if I want to.

[1332] Oh, really?

[1333] Well, I don't have a...

[1334] The smaller weights, they all have to be under a certain weight.

[1335] So weight cutting is like a big thing in MMA.

[1336] People, they do extreme diets and then cut a lot of water out the last week and try and get, you know, squeeze as much as they can to get under this weight division.

[1337] They weigh in, then they put the weight back on.

[1338] I just have to be over 93 kilos and I do that.

[1339] No problem.

[1340] But doesn't your nutrition have an impact on your performance?

[1341] Of course.

[1342] Of course.

[1343] That's kind of what I'm getting to is, like, it is so important what you put in your body.

[1344] Like, I didn't realise that until I was maybe 28 years old, 27, 28 years old.

[1345] And it needs to be monitored.

[1346] Like, again, going back to writing stuff down, like, write down what you eat in a day.

[1347] and eliminate one thing for the next day and write how you feel.

[1348] That's what I did a lot.

[1349] And now I'm at the point where I will eat similar things at similar times every day because I know how my body functions on that.

[1350] And I know that if I'm doing an intense session there, I need a little bit more carbs before and after.

[1351] And what kind of carbs is something that I've worked out to how I feel before and after.

[1352] And again, it's just a lot of...

[1353] Every person's body is different, so I would never like to sit here and I'm not a nutrition expert and start going on about what people need to eat because that's not my expertise.

[1354] But I know from a personal point of view that writing things down and experimenting, taking this out and adding this in and then writing notes on how you feel and doing that every day has been massive for me. What about sleep?

[1355] You mentioned sleep earlier on.

[1356] I do like to sleep a lot.

[1357] I'm just a big napper.

[1358] If I train in the morning...

[1359] I'm going to sleep straight after.

[1360] And that takes a lot of discipline, you know, like it takes a lot of discipline for me to be like, I'm coming home from training.

[1361] I'm going to shower, eat and sleep.

[1362] And nothing's coming in the way of that.

[1363] Like it takes, especially like with kids.

[1364] Like if I'm coming home and if I've done a two hour session in the morning, I'm coming home, the kids are excited to see me. This guy's...

[1365] wants to play on the Xbox, another one wants to play outside, this one wants a snack, and that one wants to play outside, and then it's just madness.

[1366] And then one of them spilt a drink, you've got to clean this up, and then one wants this on the TV.

[1367] It's just a constant thing for me to then walk in and be like, I'm going to bed.

[1368] I'll be up in an hour and a half.

[1369] You know what I mean?

[1370] That's discipline as well.

[1371] But all these little increments, they just pay off massively.

[1372] Because I talked about ketosis on this podcast and ketones, a brand called Ketone IQ sent me their little product here and it was on my desk when I got to the office.

[1373] I picked it up, it sat on my desk for a couple of weeks, then one day I tried it.

[1374] And honestly, I have not looked back ever since.

[1375] I now have this everywhere I go.

[1376] When I travel all around the world, it's in my hotel room, my team will put it there.

[1377] Before I did the podcast recording today that I've just finished, I had a shot of Ketone IQ.

[1378] And as is always the case, when I fall in love with a product, I called the CEO and asked if I could invest a couple of million quid into their company.

[1379] So I'm now an investor in the company as well as them being a brand sponsor.

[1380] I find it so easy to drop into deep focused work when I've had one of these.

[1381] I would love you to try one and see the impact it has on you, your focus, your productivity and your endurance.

[1382] So if you want to try it today, visit ketone .com slash Stephen for 30 % off your subscription.

[1383] Plus you'll receive a free gift with your second shipment.

[1384] That's ketone .com slash Stephen.

[1385] I'm excited for you.

[1386] I am.

[1387] The hardest conversations are often the ones we avoid.

[1388] But what if you had the right question to start them with?

[1389] Every single guest on the Diary of a CEO has left behind a question in this diary.

[1390] And it's a question designed to challenge, to connect and to go deeper with the next guest.

[1391] And these are all the questions that I have here in my hand.

[1392] On one side, you've got the question that was asked.

[1393] the name of the person who wrote it.

[1394] And on the other side, if you scan that, you can watch the person who came after who answered it.

[1395] 51 questions split across three different levels, the warm -up level, the open -up level, and the deep level.

[1396] So you decide how deep the conversation goes.

[1397] And people play these conversation cards in boardrooms at work, in bedrooms, alone at night, and on first dates, and everywhere in between.

[1398] I'll put a link to the conversation cards in the description below, and you can get yours at thediary .com.

[1399] You mentioned a term earlier on that we didn't go into, which was hypnotherapy.

[1400] Yes.

[1401] For someone that doesn't know what hypnotherapy is, can you give me like a broad idea of what it is and the role that it's played in your life and any evidence you might have seen that it actually works?

[1402] Yeah.

[1403] So I'm going like quite hard on the hypnotherapy now.

[1404] I actually spoke to my hypnotherapist yesterday.

[1405] I'm going to start doing twice a week.

[1406] Why?

[1407] A few different reasons, really, both personal and professional.

[1408] I had a situation recently with my kid where my kid was in hospital and it really kicked off my anxiety massively.

[1409] And since then, I'm struggling to relax a little bit more than I would usually, struggling to switch off.

[1410] So I think that for me personally, again, I don't want to sit here and preach about hypnotherapy because it's not my expertise at all.

[1411] But for me personally, it brings my anxiety down a lot.

[1412] So it helps with that.

[1413] It also helps with sleep.

[1414] It also helps with just being just in a more tranquil place in general.

[1415] And when you add those qualities into what can be a very anxiety -filled sport, I think that's just a massive advantage.

[1416] Not to mention the other stuff that we talked about, like life and just general stressiness as well.

[1417] For someone that doesn't know anything about the hypnotherapy that you do, they might think that it's like, you know, back in the day it was like swinging the thing in front of your face and then you fall asleep and they tell you you're a dog and you bark and stuff.

[1418] I used to be on TV when I was younger.

[1419] But it's not that, is it?

[1420] No. What is it?

[1421] People are going to start thinking it's like, say, some woo -woo thing where you start going unconscious and doing all this.

[1422] It's nothing like that.

[1423] It's like, essentially, you're just in a room.

[1424] The way that I do it, at least.

[1425] I'm in a room with a guy talking to me. I'm completely relaxed, lay down or sat up, doesn't matter, usually with my eyes closed.

[1426] And usually it'll take you through a story of, like, you go into a place, you're walking down a street, or you'll set the scene kind of thing.

[1427] And I used to think I need to listen and focus in on every word he's saying.

[1428] Like, I need to put myself exactly where, you know, follow the story, quote -unquote story, exactly as he's telling me to follow it.

[1429] And I actually spoke to him about it.

[1430] And I was like, I'm struggling to listen for that long.

[1431] Because it goes on like 45 minutes.

[1432] I'm struggling to follow the path that you're leading me down for that long.

[1433] And he's like, listen, don't worry.

[1434] You can be thinking about whatever you want.

[1435] You don't have to follow what I'm telling you.

[1436] He said, because your subconscious is listening all the time.

[1437] It's the same when...

[1438] A couple of times I was, like, fighting to stay awake because I was tired.

[1439] Most of the time I did it after training as well, so I'm tired.

[1440] I'm, like, fighting to stay awake.

[1441] And I said, look, I'm fighting to stay awake.

[1442] I'm, like, getting really tired.

[1443] And he's like, look, if you fall asleep, it doesn't matter.

[1444] Your subconscious is still listening, so it doesn't matter what's going on.

[1445] And a lot of the time I'm just there.

[1446] I'm just, like, chilling out.

[1447] I'm listening to what he's saying, but I'm also drifting off with my own thoughts.

[1448] And I don't know how, again, I'm not, like, a psychologist, hypnotherapist or anything like that, but I only know from my own personal perspective that...

[1449] When it comes to, like, anxiety and positive thinking and just generally being in a better place mentally, I just believe in it a lot.

[1450] I think it really helps me. Anxiety.

[1451] What journey have you been on with your anxiety?

[1452] It's something that I've always kind of dealt with, but I think it's not uncommon to deal with it.

[1453] And I think that a lot of people think it is uncommon.

[1454] Like, I'm a little bit OCD.

[1455] And I think that OCD and anxiety goes hand in hand.

[1456] Like, I think that, and it used to be a lot worse, to be honest.

[1457] I struggled with it when I was a child and still struggle with it now, but it used to be a lot worse when I was younger.

[1458] And how did that manifest?

[1459] At one point, it was like I couldn't sit in a room unless the room was the way I wanted it to look.

[1460] Like, unless the curtains were closed the right way, the drawers were shut perfectly, everything was facing forward.

[1461] the TV was on a certain angle, like, I couldn't rest.

[1462] Oh, really?

[1463] Because of, like, I would think, like, something bad is going to happen unless all that's right.

[1464] But after a while, I kind of grew out of that a little bit and got a hold on it, but it still creeps back, mate, sometimes.

[1465] I try and keep it at bay.

[1466] Does it come out at certain moments when certain things happen?

[1467] Yeah.

[1468] Yeah, it does.

[1469] It gets worse.

[1470] Like I said, I've been through something quite traumatic recently.

[1471] Where am I?

[1472] Son was in hospital and that's a whole other story of its own.

[1473] But at one point we were really concerned about my son's health, really.

[1474] And that was a big traumatic thing for me. And I noticed a lot that my OCD starts to come back and I want to do certain stuff again because my anxiety is creeping up and just got to really try and keep it at bay.

[1475] And anxiety separate to that.

[1476] So your anxiety is...

[1477] always been something in the background in your life, but it flares up in certain situations.

[1478] Yeah.

[1479] So, I mean, I'm in an anxiety -fueled sport.

[1480] So, I think, naturally, there's a lot going on because of that, but it's just something, I think everybody deals with it.

[1481] I don't think I'm uncommon to anybody else.

[1482] I think, especially these days, it's a lot more accepted to be, like, talking about it and stuff.

[1483] It's super common, isn't it?

[1484] Yeah, it's very common.

[1485] Very, very common.

[1486] I think social media, It doesn't help with that, especially for myself.

[1487] I have a thing now I've only done for the last couple of fights where social media has gone from my life when I've got a fight date because there is no chance that I'm thinking about my opponent all day and I'm also scrolling and reading all the comments all day.

[1488] I just won't deal with it.

[1489] And for the next fight, I'm actually going to have a training camp phone where only people who are actually...

[1490] involved in my training camp or personal life.

[1491] And when I say personal life, I'm talking about my wife, my mum and dad.

[1492] And probably that's it.

[1493] I'm going to be involved.

[1494] Like, I don't want to have any outside noise coming in at all.

[1495] Your son's doing OK now?

[1496] Son's doing OK now, yeah.

[1497] Yeah.

[1498] Yeah, thankfully, everything's good.

[1499] Puts things in perspective, doesn't it?

[1500] Honestly, unbelievably.

[1501] Yeah, I mean, it wasn't really, really bad.

[1502] Without going into too many details, but spent a stay in hospital with something that we wasn't sure what it was at first.

[1503] And yeah, massively, absolutely.

[1504] Like nothing else really matters.

[1505] As long as you've got your health and, you know, your family's health, like you're in a pretty good spot, I think, because it's just a horrible place to be in.

[1506] Is this the son that received an autism diagnosis?

[1507] No, this is my, so one of my twins has autism.

[1508] Yeah.

[1509] Yeah, this is the non -autistic.

[1510] Okay.

[1511] Tell me about your son that received the autism diagnosis and the sort of journey you've been on there.

[1512] I think this is really, really important because I've done this podcast a while and I get so many DMs from parents who have an autistic child asking me to talk more about this subject because they just don't feel like the information's out there and there's a number of feelings that they feel.

[1513] I think one of them that I see in my DMs expressed is a bit of guilt.

[1514] to some degree, which is an interesting one, but also just a lack of people talking about the experience.

[1515] So take me on the journey from when that child was born and the path to the diagnosis.

[1516] I mean, I'll give as much detail as possible because, like you say, I think parents need details and there isn't a lot out about it.

[1517] And now for me...

[1518] Recently, like I say, I've been through something traumatic with another one of my kids and the NHS has been absolutely nothing short of unbelievable.

[1519] Like, we were in an emergency situation where we needed emergency treatment and my kid got 24 hours a day looking after while there was an emergency going on and it was unbelievable.

[1520] We came away, me and my wife being like, we are so lucky to live in this country because my wife isn't from this country as well.

[1521] So we both came away being like, we are so lucky to live here in a place where you can get free everything at an emergency level straight away.

[1522] So I'm not trying to throw the NHS under the bus at all, because when there's an emergency, it's amazing.

[1523] That being said, as far as the autistic community, we are being failed.

[1524] And I don't know if that's from the NHS.

[1525] from the government.

[1526] I don't know who that's from.

[1527] But I was in a spot, so my twins are nearly six, they're coming up to six.

[1528] So I was in a spot like, my twins were born and they were born just before the lockdown.

[1529] Then COVID hit, everything, like the world went to shit, as we know.

[1530] And then my kids got in a place where, you know, we had a child before and we're aware that kids hit milestones.

[1531] We've got twins, so they're hitting the milestones at different stages.

[1532] Then we start to notice, like, maybe two years, the kids are maybe two years old.

[1533] We start to notice, like, one kid is a fair bit beyond the other one in terms of speech, in terms of how responsive he is, in terms of eye contact, in terms of, like, we could see something's different.

[1534] But me personally, as a dad, I was kind of like in denial as to, right, this is lockdown's fault.

[1535] This kid is two years old.

[1536] He's been in the house.

[1537] He's been around me, my wife and his two brothers, sometimes grandparents when the government would let us.

[1538] And that's it for like two years.

[1539] He's not in social situations.

[1540] He's not around other kids.

[1541] And that kind of went on for a bit.

[1542] I was kind of like heavily in denial about it, even though now looking back, I could clearly see that things weren't moving normally, especially because he's got this twin and the twin's like, you know, he's moving at a different rate.

[1543] So it was right there in front of my face.

[1544] But I'm just like, in this denial, he'll catch up.

[1545] It's just a lockdown's fault.

[1546] The government's keeping us all locked inside, blah, blah, blah.

[1547] Paddy McGuinness, funny enough, who's a guy from my area, like from a similar area.

[1548] Don't know Paddy at all, never met him.

[1549] But he had this programme and it was about autism.

[1550] And I don't know why one day me and my wife, we sat down and watched this programme.

[1551] And he, I believe, has three autistic children.

[1552] All of his three children are diagnosed with autism.

[1553] So anyway, I'm watching this documentary and he's talking about all the different symptoms because it's a massive spectrum, autism.

[1554] There's a million different things.

[1555] And I'm watching, he's talking about this one kid, he does this.

[1556] This is the way that autism presents himself with this particular kid.

[1557] And in my mind, I'm thinking, my son does do that a little bit.

[1558] And then he's talking about a different kid who also is diagnosed with autism, the way that the child does this.

[1559] And I'm thinking, anyway, he's going through talking about his different children.

[1560] And I'm thinking, wow, my child ticks a lot of these boxes.

[1561] And then I Google it.

[1562] I know nothing about autism at the time, and obviously that is the worst thing you can ever do.

[1563] And I'm going through these symptoms being like, wow, this is...

[1564] I don't know what to do.

[1565] We need to try and get help.

[1566] So anyway, we make a doctor's appointment at the GP, and that is a complete mess.

[1567] It's difficult to get an appointment.

[1568] We go in, they put us on a waiting list.

[1569] Anyway, a year or so goes by.

[1570] The child...

[1571] isn't developing at the speed of his twin.

[1572] We can see this clearly.

[1573] We are worried about what's going on and we don't know what to do.

[1574] Like we are literally, we have no idea about what's going on, how to progress this child, what his future is going to look like.

[1575] We know nothing about autism, me and my wife at the time, absolutely zero about it.

[1576] We don't know.

[1577] It's just so such an, we talk about anxiety.

[1578] Like, you don't know what your child's future is going to look like and how to help him or her on how to progress as a human being.

[1579] That is some of the worst anxiety that you can ever have.

[1580] You've brought this kid to this earth and you can't even point him in the right direction of where to go on how to navigate the way through life.

[1581] And it's a really, really difficult thing.

[1582] Anyway, I go on A Question of Sport, the show.

[1583] Paddy McGuinness is the host.

[1584] Me and Paddy are chatting a little bit after the show, and I said, look, Paddy, if you don't mind me asking, I'll watch your show about autism.

[1585] I said, I'm trying to get my kid diagnosed.

[1586] I've been on the waiting list a year.

[1587] Like, what should we do?

[1588] So anyway, he gives me the number to the specialist.

[1589] I call the specialist.

[1590] We go in for a meeting, long story short, paid for the diagnosis.

[1591] got this kid diagnosed, and now my child is in a mainstream school.

[1592] He has a one -to -one, one -to -one teacher.

[1593] He's getting the help he needs.

[1594] He's doing really well.

[1595] He's progressing.

[1596] How the future's going to look, we don't know.

[1597] We're dealing with it day to day.

[1598] And now I am completely aware that as a person in a good financial situation, I have the ability to do that, is to go.

[1599] pay the money and get that.

[1600] And now there is so many people, so, so many people who, and I mean, I get hundreds of messages about it, hundreds of people stopping me on the street about it because I spoke a little bit about autism, who they are going to the GP, they're going for assessments and they cannot get a diagnosis.

[1601] They're on a three, four, five year waiting list.

[1602] And these kids are getting sent to mainstream schools.

[1603] And the kids are just regressing and regressing and regressing because they don't have any help.

[1604] And the parents of the kids have zero direction and they don't know what to do.

[1605] And we're in a really tough spot with it in this country where, like I said, we've got this amazing NHS.

[1606] I don't know if it's the NHS that's holding this or the government, and I don't know what's causing autism.

[1607] There's a million things out there about vaccinations, about diet, about things that they're watching on TV, about the toys that they play with.

[1608] There's a load of different theories on it.

[1609] Me personally, I don't know what it is, obviously.

[1610] I'm not a specialist with that.

[1611] But I know that autism is getting bigger and bigger each year.

[1612] There's more and more people trying to get diagnosed.

[1613] There's more and more people getting diagnosed.

[1614] And the help just isn't there.

[1615] The help, especially in schools, like I'm so lucky that my son has an amazing one -to -one teacher.

[1616] Every day he goes in, he enjoys school and he progresses a little bit.

[1617] And we know what, we're in a position where we've had help as parents that we know what kind of direction and where to navigate him in sometimes.

[1618] Now, there's so many parents out there who've been on, like I say, three, four, five, six, seven year waiting list.

[1619] Their kids are just getting worse and worse and worse.

[1620] And as a penalty to that, the parents' life are then getting worse and worse and worse.

[1621] And they have absolutely no direction of where to go and what to do.

[1622] And it's a serious, serious crisis that we've got in this country at the moment.

[1623] In this country, there are 700 ,000 autistic adults and children.

[1624] But in the US, roughly 2 .5 % of the US population has been diagnosed with autism.

[1625] and it is four times more common in boys than girls, and there was a 787 % rise in the number of autism diagnoses over the last roughly two decades, which is, on one hand, awareness being higher, so people are going and getting a diagnosis, but some think there might be other factors that are actually increasing the amount of people that are autistic.

[1626] Why, for someone that doesn't understand autism and the process and the plight of a parent that has an autistic child, is the diagnosis so critical?

[1627] Is it because you then get additional support and guidance and you can access that support if you have a diagnosis?

[1628] So I was under the notion that if my kid is diagnosed autistic or not, it doesn't matter.

[1629] That was my original thing.

[1630] It doesn't matter.

[1631] He's still my kid.

[1632] I'm still going to love him.

[1633] I'm still going to guide him through whatever he needs to in life.

[1634] Now, I completely respect anybody who's doing that.

[1635] It has 100 % respect from me and I'm sure everybody else.

[1636] But the biggest issue is, like me personally, I'm a professional athlete.

[1637] It's like I know that for this many hours a day, I need to be in the gym and training.

[1638] When I'm not in the gym, I need to be recovering.

[1639] When I'm not in the gym, I need to be eating the right things.

[1640] And I have this process of things that make me successful.

[1641] That's how I work in my life.

[1642] If you don't have a diagnosis of autism, the only way I can describe it, because I've been there, is you're just kind of like treading water.

[1643] You're just stuck in one place, flailing around and not really knowing how to do them steps and progress your family life and your child's life.

[1644] That's the way that I look at it personally.

[1645] I'm speaking 100 % for myself, but if you've not got a diagnosis, first of all, you're not getting any funding, which, like I said, I'm in a financial position where I don't need any funding.

[1646] But there's a lot of people out there who do need funding.

[1647] And funding looks like outlets for the child, help in school, help at home, help for the parents, help for the friends, sensory rooms in school, sensory toys.

[1648] You know, there's a whole host of things that can help autistic children or autistic people.

[1649] And without that diagnosis, if you're a parent and you don't have that for your child...

[1650] From my personal experience, it feels like you're treading water.

[1651] I feel like I needed a process of these are the steps that we have to take to help my child progress.

[1652] And I think that it's what we need.

[1653] It's not about another number on the statistics that you've read out.

[1654] It's not about that.

[1655] It's not about me saying I've got an autistic child or whatever.

[1656] It's about the help that your child can get.

[1657] And right now, we definitely don't have enough help in this country.

[1658] I heard one of my best friends was diagnosed with autism.

[1659] He's been one of my best friends for a long time.

[1660] He's actually also worked at my company for many, many years.

[1661] And he spoke to me about the sense of relief that he experienced when he got his diagnosis, but also it was kind of like...

[1662] Like you're describing, there was suddenly a sense of direction and understanding.

[1663] Like someone turned the lights on, and with the lights on, he was able to make better decisions.

[1664] And it's not held him back in any way.

[1665] If anything, it's done the opposite.

[1666] It's helped him to understand himself.

[1667] But I think for some of us who don't understand, haven't been through that, we either can't relate, but also we have no...

[1668] no idea that there's additional.

[1669] So I had no idea until you just said it just then that there's additional support given in schools and stuff like that to kids who have that diagnosis.

[1670] So it's critically important.

[1671] And I'm so glad that you share that with us because hopefully there's some people watching in the government, but also parents that can get together and that are presumably getting together to change this.

[1672] Yeah.

[1673] I mean, it's a tough thing for me to talk about because I'm completely aware that there will be people watching this and thinking, who is this knucklehead?

[1674] talking about like autism diagnosis and what the government needs to go through.

[1675] But it's also an experience that I've lived and it's also an experience that I'm still living and that I'm fully aware just from my local area and my circle of friends and people around me that there is a shit ton of people who are in the same boat as I am and need help.

[1676] I feel extremely lucky and grateful that I've got the help and that we are progressing.

[1677] But I know that there's a lot of people who don't and that are struggling.

[1678] So I want to try and speak for those people if I can.

[1679] Thank you for doing that.

[1680] There's a lot of my audience that I can be very, very grateful for that.

[1681] There's something sat next to me on the table here, which is this belt.

[1682] It's very, very heavy.

[1683] I know this is just a replica, but you do have the real one at home.

[1684] And the reason why you only bought me the replica instead of the real thing.

[1685] is because the real thing costs a lot of money, apparently.

[1686] Apparently.

[1687] So I heard rumours online that the real thing actually costs about 300 grand.

[1688] And you have to sign a contract when you receive this belt that if you lose it, then you have to personally pay.

[1689] If it goes missing, I'm paying for it.

[1690] So hopefully that won't happen.

[1691] But it's in a very safe spot.

[1692] It won't go missing.

[1693] I'm not going to ask you where you keep it because there's people listening.

[1694] But what are these flags around it?

[1695] I've actually never seen one before.

[1696] I'm not too sure.

[1697] I know this bit, this bit here.

[1698] The side?

[1699] Yeah.

[1700] So these little stones, whatever they are, you get one of those.

[1701] So they're all, I think, on the real one, the diamonds.

[1702] And this is a, is it a ruby or something?

[1703] A ruby it looks like, yeah.

[1704] You get a ruby when you defend it.

[1705] So I defended it once, so I got one.

[1706] And then, obviously, that fills up the more you do it.

[1707] Oh, so if you defend it one, two, three, four, five, six, seven times, it's going to be all eight rubies.

[1708] It'll be full, yeah.

[1709] Okay, and what does that say there?

[1710] It says UFC 304, Edwards versus Muhammad 2.

[1711] My personal one has my name on it and the proper details, because this is a replica.

[1712] And when you won that interim heavyweight championship, and then you woke up the next day, how did you feel?

[1713] Honestly.

[1714] Well...

[1715] I woke up about three days later.

[1716] Sorry, I didn't sleep for about three days after because I was very excited.

[1717] Yeah, pretty good.

[1718] I mean, I won it in weird circumstances.

[1719] So that fight I took on really short notice.

[1720] I actually wasn't in shape for that fight at all.

[1721] I actually just come back off a stag do.

[1722] So I wasn't in my best shape when I answered that call.

[1723] Was there any anti -climax to it?

[1724] No. No, but there's definitely an anti -climax a little bit to being quote -unquote successful because you still feel the same.

[1725] You still have the same issues as you had before.

[1726] Money, fame and titles doesn't change much in terms of what goes on inside your brain, in my opinion.

[1727] Maybe it does change for some people, but for me, I still have the same struggles as I did before.

[1728] It doesn't change anything in that regard.

[1729] I think when you're younger especially, I don't know, it's like young people, they think that rich people have no problems, and it just isn't true.

[1730] It's just so far from the truth.

[1731] You know that.

[1732] Yeah, well, you know, they say more money, more problems, but it's just a different set of problems than some of the other ones.

[1733] Well, that's it, that's it.

[1734] I mean, at one point, as we spoke about in detail, A big problem of mine was I couldn't pay my rent and I couldn't pay fuel to put in a car.

[1735] That's gone.

[1736] But there's more problems that have arose since that money won't fix.

[1737] Do you know what I mean?

[1738] Are you at all concerned that when your time does come, you want to retire relatively early so you don't get any cognitive issues or have to fight beyond your time?

[1739] Are you at all concerned about what you do next?

[1740] Because we've seen people like Tyson Fury sort of really struggle.

[1741] I am a little bit, to be honest.

[1742] I'd be lying if I said otherwise.

[1743] Just because it takes up so much of my time.

[1744] It takes up so much of my time.

[1745] And the time that I'm not actually physically training, like I'm not in the gym training, I am doing other stuff towards it.

[1746] Even stuff like breathing exercises, I would class as part of my training.

[1747] Stretching, eating right, sleep.

[1748] I would class this all as part of my training routine.

[1749] So when I've not got that...

[1750] what will my life look like?

[1751] I don't know.

[1752] I don't know.

[1753] And that's something, as we spoke about before, and I'm aware that I'm on the second half of my career now.

[1754] When that's done, how does it look?

[1755] And I don't know if anything can ever replace that, in all honesty.

[1756] What about the money side of things?

[1757] So are you having to think now?

[1758] Because what's the average age of a UFC fighter retiring?

[1759] I mean, most people don't even get there.

[1760] But if you do really, really well, you might fight until, if you're really, really lucky, you might do Stipe's age.

[1761] 40 -ish.

[1762] 40, yeah.

[1763] Bigger guys tend to go longer.

[1764] I don't know why that is, but yeah.

[1765] Generally, the heavyweight's usually 40 -ish.

[1766] So how do you think about financial longevity?

[1767] And are you investing your money?

[1768] Have you got people that help you?

[1769] Yeah, I do.

[1770] I do.

[1771] I'm looking to invest all the time.

[1772] I actually...

[1773] My team has actually been really good with that kind of stuff.

[1774] A lot of my, not a lot, but a few of my sponsorships, I actually have shares in business as well as a sponsorship.

[1775] Also, I want to do more stuff.

[1776] I really love the sport of MMA.

[1777] Even though I'm retired from fighting, I'll never be involved.

[1778] I'll never be retired from MMA, if that makes sense.

[1779] I've definitely made mistakes.

[1780] in the media space before, definitely, but I'm learning.

[1781] And I definitely think there's a place for me somewhere in the future to educate people on MMA, however that looks, whether it's punditry, whether it's podcasts, whether it's, I don't know, something somewhere.

[1782] I definitely think that I will give some kind of insight to somebody where people can hopefully learn something from me in that regard.

[1783] I think you're more than capable of doing all of that.

[1784] I'd love to see you.

[1785] give breakdowns.

[1786] I've seen some of the stuff you're doing with school as well.

[1787] Thank you.

[1788] I've also, I don't know why, but they're giving my own show now on TNT Sport as well, Breaking Down Fights.

[1789] So this is a start.

[1790] I'm just getting the foot in the door.

[1791] It's not something that I'm focusing on full time now because I'm obviously really busy with other stuff.

[1792] But when I'm done, that's what I want to do.

[1793] What does your dad think of all of this?

[1794] He's been such a central figure in your life.

[1795] This whole Jon Jones situation, you went in there.

[1796] this belt that sits in front of me here, you must have, like, blown his mind.

[1797] I don't think so.

[1798] Really?

[1799] Yeah, I think that he had this firm belief.

[1800] He believed in me way before I believed in myself, I always say.

[1801] And I think that this is also his dream as well.

[1802] But I don't think for any of us, and this is going to sound super arrogant, but it's the truth, I don't think any of us are surprised by it.

[1803] I think that in some way...

[1804] It was written for us to do it.

[1805] I don't know.

[1806] I can't explain it any more than that.

[1807] I feel like we were both expecting to be here and this is where we are and this is where we're going to be until I'm done.

[1808] Did he ever tell you you were going to be here?

[1809] Yeah.

[1810] What did he say?

[1811] He was never like, you're going to be that, but it was like, look, if you keep doing this, this is where you're going to go.

[1812] If you keep being dedicated to training and keep living your life right and keep focused.

[1813] you can be heavyweight champion in the world.

[1814] And I think that, especially because I'm from like a smaller town, a blue -collar town for sure, a working -class town, that that belief is shut down so much from a young age by not just parents, but other people surrounding in the community.

[1815] Like, listen, maybe don't think you're going to be a Hollywood actor because you're not.

[1816] Maybe...

[1817] Maybe try and be a bit more realistic and do something a bit...

[1818] No. If you think you're going to be a Hollywood actor, you go for it.

[1819] Like, you go 100 % at that and don't let anything waver from where you're going.

[1820] And I think that that is not told to especially the younger generation enough.

[1821] I think that, like I say, I'm from a very, very blue -collar, humble town.

[1822] And from my town...

[1823] There aren't many people who've done anything of great magnitude in terms of sport and otherwise.

[1824] And I think a lot of that, not all of it, of course, but I think a lot of it comes from the mentality of, yeah, maybe don't aim for that.

[1825] Aim for something a bit lower.

[1826] And that shouldn't be encouraged, in my opinion.

[1827] Always your first option should be the highest of the high.

[1828] And if you land any lower...

[1829] then you change the goalpost a little bit.

[1830] But the first thing is shoot as high as you can.

[1831] Are you special?

[1832] Yes.

[1833] Why are you special?

[1834] I think that I have...

[1835] First of all, I think I'm really physically gifted in terms of athleticism.

[1836] But it's something that I have worked on a lot as well.

[1837] I didn't just wake up like this.

[1838] I've definitely worked a lot over the years of it.

[1839] But I think that aside, I think I've got a gift mentally.

[1840] And this has been honed a lot by the people around me through the years.

[1841] Like I said, there's been a lot of people supporting me. But I think I've got a gift to perform really, really well under massive pressure.

[1842] under massive pressure.

[1843] And I don't think, like I say, it's been honed a lot for sure by my dad and the other people around me, definitely.

[1844] But I think that I have a God -given gift or whoever, universe -given gift or whoever you believe in, that I can perform extremely well under the highest pressure situations possible.

[1845] Even though you feel the fear?

[1846] Even though I feel the fear because I accept the fear.

[1847] I bathe in the fear.

[1848] I think...

[1849] That's not the first time you've said that.

[1850] No, it's something that someone told me. It's something that someone told me recently.

[1851] I thought it was funny.

[1852] So when you feel that fear, is there something you say to yourself?

[1853] Is there like a mantra or a system?

[1854] Well, I always say that I used to have two fights.

[1855] I used to be fighting my opponent.

[1856] I used to be fighting myself.

[1857] I used to be trying to block out the fear, trying to like...

[1858] But you know what?

[1859] I just took it on board and accepted that this is going to help me. There's so many examples over the years.

[1860] I like to give this example.

[1861] because this actually happened to one of my close friends.

[1862] So he's putting a wardrobe up, and the wardrobe, it was like a really heavy wardrobe, fell on his kid, who was like not even walking at the time.

[1863] And he's a skinny guy, like he's a small, slight guy.

[1864] He was on his own, and he pulled the wardrobe off the kid, right?

[1865] And then, anyway, everything was fine.

[1866] The kid was fine, everything, whatever.

[1867] Five minutes later, he went to move the wardrobe to another part of the room and realised that he couldn't pick it up.

[1868] And there's only one thing that's made him pick that wardrobe up, and it's fear.

[1869] Fear that that kid is going to get crushed under that really heavy wardrobe.

[1870] And when he actually went to pick the wardrobe up without that, there was no way he could have done it.

[1871] He had to wait till somebody came and help him move the wardrobe across the room.

[1872] There was no way that he could have done it without the fear.

[1873] And there's so many situations, like if you're running for your life...

[1874] 100 % guaranteed that you're running way quicker than you would if you were just running down the street.

[1875] Goes without saying because that fear fuels you in ways that nothing else will.

[1876] And I have accepted that and took it on board and used it to help me. Because as someone that's watched your fights both on screen but in person, one of the things that I remember about you, more so than other fighters I've seen, is how calm you look in the ring.

[1877] And I don't, I'm like, does he just know he's like amazingly good or is there something he's doing?

[1878] Because you kind of look how I look when I get to the office and I don't have some six foot five guy that's trying to kill me. It's all by design though.

[1879] Really?

[1880] By design, yeah.

[1881] So one of my absolute heroes in the sport.

[1882] of MMA is a guy called GSP, George St -Pierre.

[1883] He's one of the best fighters to ever lace up the gloves.

[1884] But not only that, he's one of the best humans as well.

[1885] I'm lucky enough to have met him a few times and had some deep discussions with him.

[1886] And he's someone I've studied a lot, both inside and outside of the octagon over the years.

[1887] And the thing with GSP is he, like me, has always admitted how scared he was.

[1888] And that's something that I've watched countless interviews and podcasts with him and how he talks about it and stuff.

[1889] And he used a method and he actually told me about the method where I'm not sure what the method's called and I don't even know if there's any scientific evidence behind it, but it works for him and it's worked for me on multiple occasions where if you physically present yourself in a way that even if mentally you don't feel like that, like on fight day, for example, the last thing I feel like doing, is smiling, in all honesty.

[1890] I'm not in a smiley mood.

[1891] But when you smile, you feel good, you relax, you enjoy yourself, you're confident.

[1892] So I will walk round fake smiling with my head held high and my shoulders back like there's nothing bothering me in the world.

[1893] Not because there isn't anything bothering me, because trust me, on fight day, there's a lot of stuff bothering me. I have to get in there in front of millions of people and have a fight with someone.

[1894] And it's highly likely.

[1895] that I'm going to be separated from my own consciousness in front of millions of people.

[1896] The last thing I want to do is walk around with a smile on my face, with my shoulders back, with my head up high, being friendly and nice to people and being in a good mood and being relaxed.

[1897] That's the last thing I feel.

[1898] But I purposely walk around like that all day in every situation that I can possibly be in.

[1899] And sooner or later, believe it or not, my mind will actually start to follow my body's lead.

[1900] And it's unbelievable.

[1901] It's unbelievable.

[1902] the way that that can happen.

[1903] And like you say, you'll see me, I'm stood there in the octagon and I am scared to death.

[1904] My opponent is looking at me across the octagon like he wants to kill me. And I'm looking back like I'm in the queue for a sandwich.

[1905] By design.

[1906] By design, I do it.

[1907] The same with the walk to the octagon.

[1908] There's a million people throwing beer on me, shouting in my face, booing me, sticking fingers up in my face, saying that I'm going to die, literally.

[1909] While I'm walking to fight another human being.

[1910] And I look like I've just woke up and taken the dog for a walk.

[1911] By design.

[1912] Because if your body does it, sooner or later, your mind will start to follow.

[1913] And like I say, this is like a bro science thing, probably.

[1914] But this is something that I've experienced a lot myself.

[1915] And it's proven, at least to me and to George as well, that it can be done.

[1916] We have a closing tradition on this podcast where the last guest leaves a question for the next guest not knowing who they're going to be leaving it for.

[1917] This question is hilarious as far as I'm concerned.

[1918] And it kind of reveals who left the question.

[1919] Right.

[1920] The question is, it's weird saying this to you.

[1921] Why don't you work harder?

[1922] That's a good question.

[1923] Who's left that?

[1924] Can you figure it out from what we said?

[1925] No. So this was the last guest.

[1926] I told you I was in America.

[1927] Oh, Mr. Beast.

[1928] Mr. Beast.

[1929] Why don't you work harder?

[1930] That's a good question.

[1931] It's a good question.

[1932] I like to think I work as hard as I can, but I think if everybody looks herself in the mirror, I think everybody could work a bit harder.

[1933] I think I probably like sleep too much is the reason that I don't.

[1934] I think that's the only thing holding me back because when I'm awake, everything's geared towards...

[1935] me being the best that I can be.

[1936] So I think maybe I like sleep a little bit too much.

[1937] Well, sleep makes you work harder.

[1938] It does.

[1939] That's what I thought.

[1940] That's what I thought.

[1941] That's still working hard as far as I'm concerned.

[1942] Tom, thank you so much.

[1943] You are such an incredible inspiration for so many reasons.

[1944] Thank you.

[1945] Mainly because you're so remarkably down to earth, but at the same time able to confidently say on camera, which I, by the way, really, really admire and respect, that you think you're special.

[1946] And I think there's a certain nonchalantness that sometimes people come with because they're trying to be like fake humble.

[1947] But I really respect people that say, no, no, no, I think I'm special.

[1948] And to be able to say that with such humility, but also with such a track record to justify that claim is tremendously inspiring because you come from, as you say, like a blue collar area, you come from a normal place.

[1949] You're a normal guy that has just committed himself to something despite any...

[1950] short -term or medium -term rewards in your life because you loved it and you believed in yourself.

[1951] And I think that, for anybody listening, should be evidence enough that we all have a chance at least something.

[1952] It might not be being the heavyweight champion of the world because you acknowledge you have physical gifts that, you know, myself, I wasn't born with.

[1953] But we can all do something with that obsession, with that focus, with a supporting group of people around us, with the right mentality and with a commitment to it despite...

[1954] the objective reality that we're going through.

[1955] But also I admire you so much because of everything you've said about your child with autism and the work you're doing to push harder to reduce the diagnosis times in the NHS at the moment, which so many parents out there are going to really appreciate.

[1956] And we are all behind you as a nation.

[1957] You're a good guy.

[1958] You'd be the first ever to do, to unify the belts in such a way as a British guy.

[1959] Wouldn't that be something?

[1960] Listen, if anybody can do it, and just saying about the special thing, I wasn't born special.

[1961] And like you said, I am from the most regular background that you can come from.

[1962] And I don't mean to say, I'm not saying I'm special in the fact that I'm better than anybody else because I believe that anybody can be special.

[1963] And I think more people need to believe it.

[1964] You know what I mean?

[1965] I think that more people, if they work hard enough and don't quit on themselves, they can be special as well.

[1966] And I think we'll leave it at that.

[1967] Amen.

[1968] Thank you so much, Tom.

[1969] Thank you.

[1970] Two things I wanted to say.

[1971] The first thing is a huge thank you for listening and tuning into the show week after week.

[1972] It means the world to all of us.

[1973] And this really is a dream that we absolutely never had and couldn't have imagined getting to this place.

[1974] But secondly, it's a dream where we feel like we're only just getting started.

[1975] And if you enjoy what we do here, please join the 24 % of people that listen to this podcast regularly and follow us on this app.

[1976] Here's a promise I'm going to make to you.

[1977] I'm going to do everything in my power to make this show as good as I can now and into the future.

[1978] We're going to deliver the guests that you want me to speak to and we're going to continue to keep doing all of the things you love about this show.

[1979] Thank you.