Rewind with Karen & Georgia - Episode 9: Color Me Nine

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[1] This episode is brought to you by FX's American Sports Story, Aaron Hernandez.

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[8] Listen up.

[9] I'm Lisa Trager.

[10] And I'm Kara Clank, and we're the hosts of the True Crime Comedy podcast, That's Messed Up, an SVU podcast.

[11] Every Tuesday, we break down an episode of Law and Order SVU, the true crime it's based on, and we chat with an actor from the episode.

[12] Over the past few years, we've chatted with series icons like Beatty Wong, Kelly Giddish, Danny Pino, and guest stars like Padget Brewster and Matthew Lillard.

[13] And just like an SVU marathon, you can jump in anywhere.

[14] Don't miss new episodes every Tuesday.

[15] Follow that's messed up.

[16] up an SVU podcast wherever you get your podcasts.

[17] Dun -dun!

[18] Hello.

[19] And welcome to Rewind with Karen and Georgia.

[20] This is episode nine.

[21] This is our new weekly bonus episode where we go back to the early days, the early Halcyon days of my favorite murder, and comment on the way we were.

[22] We were young.

[23] We were innocent.

[24] We were free.

[25] It was so 2016.

[26] We're going to reflect on all the things that have changed, give you case updates, and basically, you know, we'll treat this like a high school yearbook, but of podcasting.

[27] Like a high school reunion yearbook.

[28] Yeah.

[29] Yeah.

[30] And so it's time to rewind to episode nine called Color Me Nine.

[31] That's a good one.

[32] From Friday, March 25th, 2016.

[33] So get your nosy neighbor and your meanest teacher from high school and your favorite mail carrier and invite them all to this party because now we all get to be day one listeners.

[34] But also shout out to real day one.

[35] listeners because we love you.

[36] We and you were there first.

[37] I know, we know.

[38] So let's listen to the intro of episode nine where we discussed the podcast we're listening to the status of our, ugh, RIP Facebook group.

[39] RIP, and more.

[40] 1 ,500 people in the Facebook group is so precious.

[41] That's a lot of people.

[42] It was for a beginning.

[43] It was very shocking, I think, to us.

[44] This is going to be a confession that I've never confessed to you.

[45] I probably told you at the time, but nobody else.

[46] When the Facebook page was that small, I'd get up in the morning to kind of look at what was happening.

[47] And if people posted lame memes, I would delete them.

[48] Karen Kilgariff, did I make you a moderator?

[49] Yeah, I was on there.

[50] Okay.

[51] I was on there.

[52] And because it turned into this thing where it was like people were, they were just lame.

[53] So it was like some people would post stuff that was amazing and great and really funny.

[54] What would be on the chopping block?

[55] Well, if the same meme got posted over and over again, I was just like, this is.

[56] has been done, and it's from three days ago.

[57] It's like when people tag you in the same sinkhole nowadays over and over again.

[58] You're like, I've seen it, I swear.

[59] We've seen it.

[60] We've seen it.

[61] But also, I think those memes that looked like they were from that one app where it was the white block letters and it was just something where I was just like, all right, we need the quality to be a little bit higher here.

[62] Okay, you should want to clean it up a little bit.

[63] I really did see it as my own Facebook page back then, where I'm like, I don't want this shit on my Facebook page.

[64] But then people would come on and be like, who's deleting my thing?

[65] and get all crazy.

[66] They call it a dirty delete.

[67] And they get so fucking mad.

[68] And it's like, read the room, aka the Facebook page, it's already there.

[69] Also, but also, what a fun confession.

[70] I love that.

[71] If you were mad because you got dirty deleted, it was me. That's amazing.

[72] I'm so glad I finally know that.

[73] Isn't this the kind of Easter egg people are looking for in these Rewind episodes?

[74] I think so.

[75] You can just see our numbers going up, up, up, up.

[76] Also, in this episode, we talk about the fact.

[77] that the Facebook group suggested a drinking game.

[78] Maybe the first, my favorite murder drinking game of many, because there's been more.

[79] It's whenever I gasp or say, holy shit, you take a shot.

[80] And when you sing a regular word in conversation, which I, so, I want you to do it, but it's not going to be natural if you do it.

[81] I'll try to, I'll try to fold one in in this episode.

[82] I would love that.

[83] Okay.

[84] Because I just, yeah, I don't want to, like, put you on the spot because when you do it, it's just very, like, unexpected, you know what I mean?

[85] I literally just did it in a meeting.

[86] you were in.

[87] I don't remember.

[88] Yeah, I remember when I said, thank you to our fucked up families for letting us make stuff while we're stressed out.

[89] Yes.

[90] Yes.

[91] That was something.

[92] No, that was it.

[93] That's an example.

[94] See, it's not as good.

[95] It's not, you build it up, then you actually do it.

[96] Surprise me. Murder, murder, murder.

[97] Oh, you're ready for some minute.

[98] You should look up synonyms for murder.

[99] Okay.

[100] podcast.

[101] Okay.

[102] Oh, for the titles of the podcast?

[103] No, no, just in general so we don't say that word as much.

[104] Oh, right.

[105] Yeah.

[106] Being taken out violently.

[107] Assassinations.

[108] What are we going to name this episode, do you think?

[109] It's number nine.

[110] Yeah.

[111] Nine.

[112] Non -lives.

[113] That's pretty much how this goes.

[114] Spitballing.

[115] It doesn't get better after that.

[116] Never.

[117] Welcome, everybody.

[118] to my favorite murder.

[119] Hi.

[120] That's Georgia Hart Stark.

[121] That's Karen Kilgariff.

[122] I said it like I wasn't sure.

[123] I know.

[124] That's George.

[125] Georgia, right?

[126] Georgia Hartshars?

[127] The worst is when someone misspels your name in a professional setting when they should absolutely spell your name correctly.

[128] Right, Karen Kilgariff with a complicated last name?

[129] Yes.

[130] That's happening many times.

[131] Also the worst is when people say your last name, who you've known for years and you realize that they always thought was Kilgaris or Kilgaraff or Kilgarath.

[132] When you're like, well, I wish you knew me more.

[133] I know.

[134] Hard stock.

[135] What the fuck?

[136] Hard and stark are two very simple words.

[137] And yet somehow next to each other, people freak the fuck out.

[138] People freak out.

[139] Although I do do that thing where when I see somebody that I know for sure, like if I ran into Dustin in a bar, I would, in my mind, I'd go, hi, Dustin.

[140] And when I would go to say it.

[141] What if I'm wrong?

[142] Yes.

[143] Oh, my God.

[144] I do that.

[145] to you, except when I see someone that I for sure know, like Dustin, I'll scream their name in front of them because I'm so excited that I know them.

[146] You know what I mean?

[147] Like, you want the credit?

[148] Yeah, because normally I'm like, I know who you are.

[149] Yeah.

[150] But I don't think I do.

[151] And I'm the kind of person that if I mess it up and the person's like, don't worry about it.

[152] I won't stop talking about it.

[153] Right.

[154] Or worrying about it.

[155] Right.

[156] People call me Allie sometimes and I'm like, it's okay.

[157] It's not okay.

[158] It's okay.

[159] But it's not.

[160] Well, I mean, you should at least get one letter.

[161] right, the first letter, totally, is all I ask.

[162] I love that you have that we're killing your name too.

[163] Oh, me too.

[164] I find it intimidates people.

[165] Yeah, we both have kind of like hardcore badass last name.

[166] You have a, like yours is reminiscent of Charles Starkweather, the famous spree killer.

[167] Sure.

[168] That we're not talking about on this episode, but that we.

[169] Okay, we know what I don't talk about up top before we start our favorite murders.

[170] Before we start this bullshit?

[171] Yeah.

[172] Is someone knows something?

[173] the podcast.

[174] Yes.

[175] Are you, I texted you the other day because I knew you were driving.

[176] I was in New York.

[177] I was flying.

[178] Oh, nice.

[179] Yeah.

[180] And I was like, so you got to listen to this.

[181] Yep.

[182] And I did.

[183] All of them?

[184] Well, there were only three.

[185] Right.

[186] There's a new one.

[187] Oh, is there really good.

[188] Yeah.

[189] I'll listen to it out of my drive home.

[190] So this is, I didn't realize that when I started listening, but it's like, it's, the entire season of this podcast is about one topic.

[191] Yeah.

[192] Should I read the description?

[193] Sure.

[194] Because it's good.

[195] It's fucking great.

[196] On June 12th, 1972, five -year -old Adrian McNaughton wandered away from his family at a lake in eastern Ontario and disappeared without a trace and season one if someone knows something host David Riggin who grew up in the area goes back and search for answers and I had heard of this case and I had never cared because I was like he got eaten by bears clearly but no the more he goes into it like that's what I like about it is you make up a thing you hear facts from him and then you go what's that guy or it's this thing and then he keeps laying down hard facts that he goes out and looks at himself so there's really recordings of him walking in the woods, testing the echo, talking to people who have never talked to anybody about it.

[197] Right.

[198] It was one guy who was there when he wandered away and the police had never spoken to him about it.

[199] I've never spoken to that.

[200] It's pretty, it's a pretty great show.

[201] I hope it stays that way.

[202] So good.

[203] And I find sometimes I get a little bit impatient and this is sexist of me, but when the boys get a little wistful and poetic about their own thoughts and feelings about things, where I'm just like, uh -huh.

[204] That's the opposite of sexist and I love it.

[205] Because it's always sexist against women fucking getting, being poetic about shit.

[206] Well, true, true.

[207] But I mean, like, I just have that thing where, yeah, I just don't want anyone to be precious, really.

[208] But then I find it slightly more sickening if it's a man because I've bought into our cultural stereotypes and norms.

[209] Right.

[210] But when this guy does it, I buy it.

[211] I feel like he's being sincere.

[212] I don't think it's self -conscious or self -serving.

[213] He seems so sincere that it's great.

[214] And it's clear that he's written out everything he's saying.

[215] It's more of a story he's telling and the writing is good and he tells the story and not a boring way like some of the other true crime podcast too.

[216] Right.

[217] The music is a little dramatic at times and the soundtracks.

[218] The sound is a little dramatic.

[219] But he's Canadian.

[220] But they have a sincerity that they don't fear that here in America is almost not allowed.

[221] Right.

[222] And I like to, I like to indulge in that with a Canadian man every once in a while.

[223] I love this podcast.

[224] It's our new The Simpsons, what we talk about at the beginning of every episode.

[225] Which of course it means the people versus O .J. Simpsons.

[226] Yeah.

[227] Not OJ.

[228] Simpsons?

[229] As many OJ.

[230] Simpsons as it takes to discuss it.

[231] Although the last episode I have to say, the one about the jury was not so.

[232] I feel like.

[233] I loved it.

[234] You did?

[235] You didn't like it?

[236] I mean, I loved knowing I didn't know any of that stuff.

[237] I didn't either.

[238] What a fucking bummer to be stuck in a hotel and you can't speak to.

[239] anyone for months.

[240] Eight months.

[241] And then they didn't treat them well.

[242] No. No, it was, well, it was, it was good in that it was, um, kind of riveting, but it was riveting in it almost like in a, uh, uh, telenovela way.

[243] Yeah.

[244] It's ridiculously dramatic.

[245] It kind of took us off the, um, track that we were already on with all the episodes.

[246] It felt like we were moving forward and this one didn't really feel like it was moving forward.

[247] No, but the other thing I like, it felt very different.

[248] Yeah.

[249] But I also loved Marcia Clark and her new hair.

[250] She looks hot.

[251] She looks great in that hair.

[252] And also she was so badass in this one.

[253] There was no, she didn't do any like rim, tears on the rim or her eyes or putting her head in her hands.

[254] She told, she told, what's is Johnny Crockeran to go to the playground or something or what was it?

[255] Daycare.

[256] Go to daycare because this is the Smoker's Lounge.

[257] Yeah.

[258] And I was like, okay.

[259] But if that really happened, which it probably didn't, I'm so happy about.

[260] I feel like it could have.

[261] It could have.

[262] I mean, by that point, she's so pissed.

[263] at so many things.

[264] Like DNA evidence got completely ignored.

[265] No. I mean, I feel like today that wouldn't happen.

[266] No. No one knew what it was.

[267] Yeah.

[268] What I'm loving more than anything is David Schwimmer's character, like realizing his friend is a fucking murderer and him apologizing to his wife.

[269] Yes.

[270] That his friend is murdered.

[271] Yeah.

[272] His friend is.

[273] Yeah.

[274] What a bummer.

[275] What a terrible.

[276] No, I mean, yeah.

[277] I wonder if he had quit the trial would.

[278] Would he not die of camera?

[279] Cancer?

[280] When you're not a night of cancer and would have OJ gotten off?

[281] Probably not.

[282] Oh, oh, you mean during it.

[283] Sorry.

[284] Yes.

[285] I see what you mean.

[286] Yeah.

[287] Yeah.

[288] Yeah.

[289] I mean, no, that would have been bad news.

[290] Exactly.

[291] So maybe that should have been his like non -statement statement that he's like, I can't support this anymore.

[292] Yeah, except for that then you're basically choosing how a person's life is going to go.

[293] Yeah.

[294] But defending him, you're doing the same thing or you're trying to at least.

[295] It's so heavy.

[296] a lot of decisions in life that one has to make.

[297] And it's not until they make a dramatic reenactment TV show 20 years later about it that you realize the decisions you should have made.

[298] Yeah, I mean, please live your life like you're going to be reenacted in 30 years.

[299] And do you want someone of as high quality as Sarah Paulson to portray you?

[300] Yeah, then you need to live your life like Sarah Paulson could be your, you.

[301] A quiet nobility.

[302] Right.

[303] A single tier.

[304] Or do you want John fucking Travolta being the most flamboyant, incredible character since behind the candelabra?

[305] And maybe even better.

[306] I love it, though.

[307] But I don't mind it.

[308] Oh, I love it.

[309] It doesn't bring me out of it.

[310] I never think of John Travolta.

[311] I believe him.

[312] I do too.

[313] I don't know what Robert Shapiro is like that.

[314] I have to assume he's somewhat like that in personal situations.

[315] And I love it.

[316] I'd like to sing a tune of praise for the very unsung, Nathan Langell.

[317] is F. Lee Bailey.

[318] Nathan Lane is F. F. Leigh is great.

[319] And, yeah, Nathan, Nathan Lane.

[320] Who knew he'd be in this?

[321] I got so excited.

[322] Yeah, he's almost unrecognizable, not only because of his wig, but because he, I just believe it's that guy.

[323] I do too.

[324] And F. Lee Bailey is such a noble character that it had to be played by someone excellent.

[325] Yes.

[326] And Nathan Lane is a beloved actor.

[327] Perfect for that role.

[328] Right.

[329] Oh, guys.

[330] We did it.

[331] If you're not watching it, we've ruined it.

[332] If you're not watching it, you've ruined your, yourself.

[333] You've ruined it for yourself.

[334] There's nothing more we can ruin in your life.

[335] Um, how's it going?

[336] Everything else all right?

[337] Oh yeah.

[338] Everything's good.

[339] Not murdered yet.

[340] I'm fucking, the Facebook group is like near and dear to my heart at this point.

[341] The Facebook book group is making me regret leaving Facebook.

[342] If you want to sign up a fake account, fake name, I will not out you.

[343] But it is such a, it is such a pleasing place to go when I have insomnia and just talk to, Like, everyone is so fucking cool.

[344] I comment and I post things and I read everyone's post and it's just like really fun.

[345] And the discussions we get into and the comments people make, everyone's nice.

[346] There hasn't been anything racist or mean yet.

[347] I haven't had to kick one person out, which is like shocking for Facebook.

[348] I thought we were really big in the racist community.

[349] Damn it.

[350] Well, we are.

[351] They just keep it quiet.

[352] Oh, yeah, they behave appropriately.

[353] And this is our ninth episode and there's already 1 ,500.

[354] people in the Facebook group.

[355] Fuck yeah, you guys.

[356] Thank you.

[357] It turns out everyone needed a place to talk about murder.

[358] Well, it is fascinating.

[359] Yeah.

[360] It truly is.

[361] We actually somebody at work today started talking about H .H. Holmes.

[362] Yeah.

[363] Literally in my head I had to say like a teacher, don't say anything, Karen, let her tell her story.

[364] Don't be a no at all.

[365] Don't, I like had to press my lips together because all I want to do is like, get out of and like just jump all over.

[366] Don't you want to be like murder is mine?

[367] Like I'm the one who talks.

[368] You don't.

[369] going to talk about murder.

[370] I talk about murder.

[371] I think though that's a, that's kind of a good lesson just in general, because I think I've been that way about more than murder all of my life.

[372] It's such a hard thing not to be like, but it's like if someone brings it up themselves, let them tell the story.

[373] Let them have it.

[374] Murder doesn't belong to you or whatever it is doesn't belong.

[375] I'm not telling you.

[376] I'm telling myself, because I totally agree.

[377] Oh, that wasn't to me. No, that was to me in any conversation.

[378] Oh, mm -hmm.

[379] Mm -hmm.

[380] Not, oh, yeah?

[381] Did you know that?

[382] Yes.

[383] You know.

[384] It's so hard.

[385] And then when you're like, oh, well, and you bring up something that compares to it, you just sound like an asshole unless you're sincerely wanting to bring up another murder.

[386] Instead of saying, like, well, this is how much I know about it, which I do all the time.

[387] Yes.

[388] This podcast could also go into the areas of etiquette, general etiquette.

[389] Well, I do it in this podcast, too, of not wanting to speak over you like I just did.

[390] But it's fine with me here, with you and I. Okay.

[391] Well, not wanting to speak over you.

[392] also not wanting to be like, yeah, no, I know that murder you're about to talk about.

[393] But it delights me when you do that.

[394] I think it's hilarious.

[395] There was one you had that I kept trying to add to and kept telling myself, just shut the fuck up in my head because it was so obnoxious.

[396] But it's hard, for me, it's hard when you read a thing by yourself and you're like, there was a man in Chicago during the World's Fair that built, I basically built a murder hotel and I'm just finding out now.

[397] And I read it with what I imagine other people read like, books when they go to college.

[398] I read it with the same enthusiasm and kind of like absorption.

[399] So then when somebody else starts talking about it, I want them to know that I know, like I want them to know.

[400] To know that you're cool.

[401] I guess.

[402] Yeah.

[403] And or yeah, like that I, I want to like scream and grab each other's shoulders.

[404] I want that feeling with people I don't know that.

[405] I don't do too.

[406] And I want them to know that I'm on the level with them and we can have this conversation instead of like.

[407] And also like you're going to keep telling me about it.

[408] then you're going to find out that I have a true crime podcast and you're like, why didn't you say anything that you knew about this, especially really, the book, The Devil and the White City.

[409] Yes, that's what we were talking about.

[410] Did you read that?

[411] I just did it.

[412] No, yeah, that's it.

[413] That's what we, I had to wait till she was done and then kind of like take a beat.

[414] I was really using it as like a exercise.

[415] Yeah.

[416] And then someone goes, I think they're making a movie.

[417] I think there was a book.

[418] And then I was like, don't say it the second the words out of the month.

[419] And then I was like, that's right.

[420] It's called devil and noise.

[421] Yeah, but then if I were the girlhood.

[422] it up, I'd be like, wait, so this whole time you've been letting me mansplain something to you and you knew about it.

[423] But also sometimes mansplaining is just talking.

[424] Sometimes people get to talk to us knowing something and we can accept that.

[425] Yeah.

[426] And we don't have to know.

[427] We don't have to tell them.

[428] But I know.

[429] Yes.

[430] I know everything.

[431] Yeah, we can be not in the position of victim or somebody that's being oppressed.

[432] You can assume that person doesn't have the power to oppress you and you're just being polite.

[433] And letting them, letting them be a know -it -all is an okay thing to do.

[434] But then they're never going to get to know you because you didn't tell them that you know shit.

[435] That's very true.

[436] But I'm also, this is a work situation where I can't, I have to let my personality out bit by bit because it's a lot.

[437] You can't scream in someone's face.

[438] Yes.

[439] I love murder.

[440] As my mom used to say, you're too much and she meant it very literally.

[441] Yeah.

[442] Well, we're a lot.

[443] And that's why we have a true crime podcast.

[444] A murder podcast.

[445] We could, yeah, this podcast could literally go for four hours.

[446] Yeah, that's why we're friends is because the first time we actually hung out on around, we had a five -hour lunch.

[447] Yeah, we did.

[448] Just talking.

[449] And the whole time I kept thinking, am I the only one that wants to stay here?

[450] She's trapped.

[451] Right.

[452] But we, it was clear that we were both voluntarily eating lunch for five hours.

[453] Yeah, and the conversation flowed.

[454] It wasn't one -sided.

[455] That's right.

[456] I think.

[457] I think.

[458] Speaking of one -side.

[459] We still have our doubts.

[460] we are good we are great anxiety is real speaking of one -sided and talking about the thing do you want to do your favorite murderer I think you're first do you want me to go first yeah okay we're back here we are in good old 2024 this is us now that was us then how different is it we're in a studio right now first of all this sound quality in here is incredible the sound quality of the air temperature.

[461] Yeah.

[462] The visuals.

[463] I mean, that was a cute apartment, you gotta admit.

[464] No, no. Your apartment was great and the smells were amazing, but I do love the shade of green.

[465] Yeah.

[466] Yeah.

[467] Two cats in a one -bedroom apartment will really do something about the odor of the...

[468] I think that Elvis could feel the energy that was building around us and he was just like, guys, this is so exciting.

[469] I have to shit right here in the room with you.

[470] My favorite thing was you would get up and be like, oh my God, I have to, take care of this right now.

[471] And it would just be like, yeah, I don't care.

[472] There's nothing you can do.

[473] Like, we would be recording and be like in the episode and you'll be like, oh my God, I have to do this right now.

[474] Like, clearly you were just so embarrassed.

[475] I'm so embarrassed.

[476] Where it's like, it's a cat.

[477] They do it all the time.

[478] Yeah, but Elvis was particularly obdifference when it came to, like he was just so male Siamese that it was like he's not just going to take a shit.

[479] He's going to take a shit that fucking ruins the atmosphere.

[480] Ruins the vibe.

[481] also he was 82 I believe when we were recording those 82 years old oh my sweet boy he was on statins he was on cholesterol medication he was he was highly medicated oh my god good boy all right so let's go into your story Karen you are covering the exorcist serial killer because our theme is hiding in plain sight yes which is great and that's a good theme yeah this is one of my favorite true because it's so creepy and sinister, and it's one of those things of like, oh, this guy in this scene from this movie, actually, and it unravels into, like, a whole other movie.

[482] Yeah.

[483] And it's just, it's crazy.

[484] It's chilling.

[485] And then at the end, I mean, we'll talk about it after, but, like, they, like, let him out of prison after a while.

[486] Yeah.

[487] It's one of those.

[488] All right.

[489] Let's listen.

[490] Okay.

[491] Karen, I just found out there's another meaning for POS.

[492] You mean besides point of sale?

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[511] Goodbye.

[512] You told me this week's theme in a way that I already knew that you knew what you were doing.

[513] Yes.

[514] I read what they call reverse engineered this week's theme because I had to do.

[515] do this story because one of our, now I'm afraid, I guess I'll say his first name and last initial because one of our listeners DM'd us, which I adore.

[516] He DM'd us like, so as not too embarrassed, I think.

[517] But he was like, how could you have talked about the exorcist and not talked about this?

[518] And sent me a link and all this stuff.

[519] And I wrote back in all caps, holy shit, how did I miss this?

[520] So that's where mine started.

[521] So then when I talked to Georgia, I was like, can this week's be like hiding in plain sight or murders that like if they were right there the whole time okay kind of thing uh because in the exorcist one of the biggest stories and i swear i looked at over five websites about my exorcist cursed um movie set that is which was my thing last week if you didn't hear it um but b our uh listener sent us to stem because there was a guy in the Exorcist, and he was the guy that played the radiologist, something's wrong with my mouth.

[522] Words.

[523] Radialologist assistant.

[524] In the scene we talked about that I said was so creepy where she was in that crazy machine getting like the MRI, the guy that plays the assistant in that scene turned out to be a serial killer.

[525] No. Yes.

[526] Like a serial killer, serial killer.

[527] A legit six victim straight up New York in the 70s serial killer.

[528] That just reminded me of something when I gasped is that there is a thread on the Facebook group that every time I say, holy shit, you have to take a shot.

[529] Or when I say, like there's certain things.

[530] And then when you say, when you sing a word, like a thing, like, yes, it is.

[531] You have to take a shot.

[532] It's pretty hilarious.

[533] It's very lighthearted.

[534] It's not in a mean way at all.

[535] Oh, no, no, no. Please.

[536] Okay.

[537] But now I don't want to be self -conscious about it.

[538] I'm doing all the time.

[539] is I love when people are so drunk They fall off their own couch All right So I went Ryan B sent us this This very tasteful DM about a huge thing I missed And I'm so bummed Please don't beat yourself up I won't entirely But talk about like Wanting to be an expert And dropping the ball Well I'm the first five websites that came up They didn't mention this They didn't So nobody knew But yeah Maybe it is like specialized knowledge or something.

[540] Maybe I just have to go to better websites first.

[541] Or you have to like, I've been Googling weird shit like the weird.

[542] The weird stuff.

[543] Not just like so -and -so murder.

[544] I've been Googling like deep down weird shit.

[545] Have you gone dark web?

[546] I wish I could, I don't know how to go dark web.

[547] But I really don't want to.

[548] Okay, so here's the, here's the research part.

[549] And I hope I do this justice, but I'm not going to because I basically did only part of my homework but essentially this is this is it in a nutshell i'm excited the guy's name was paul bateson and he was in real life a 38 year old x -ray tech at NYU med center where they shot that scene oh it's called an arteriogram is what she was getting in that scene which is like the crazy machine that like it's like a it looks like a with not a centrifuge but like the thing that were spins you in all those different directions very upsetting and weird noises so um i guess when they probably when And they went to, like, go location scout.

[550] He was there.

[551] They cast him because he already worked there and knew how to work the machine.

[552] Legit already.

[553] Right.

[554] And what I love is the link that Brian B sent us, the picture that comes up with this article, he looks so creepy.

[555] He looks like any dude in the 70s, like, kind of forward, his hair's going forward, kind of sandy blonde, goate.

[556] But his eyes are like, his eyes are drooping like they're melting.

[557] So, like, you were like, that what a great casting job.

[558] that they hired this actor and it's like nope it's he's really this is what he looks like and that's why they hired him from this creepy movie yeah and i don't know i don't know if i mean that's a little woo -woo to think but like his secret life was the reason that scene was so creepy i actually oh this was before so he went these murders happened later in the 70s so i think he was he did that first okay oh no sorry the murder started in 1973 so that was so he was like on camera having had murdered someone.

[559] I think so.

[560] I should.

[561] I would have to look up.

[562] The movie came out in 73 and was, I'm the one that did this.

[563] Oh, you're good.

[564] Just pretend like you know what you're talking.

[565] I'm pretty sure I know what I'm talking about.

[566] Just own it.

[567] Yeah, I think he murdered.

[568] He must have murdered before.

[569] Directly.

[570] I think he was doing it during and then ended up getting caught after because it was over a period of time.

[571] So essentially what happened is so these people started going missing.

[572] Or there was like murder scene.

[573] So the first one was a man named Ronald Cabo.

[574] He lived in the West Village and he was stabbed to death on his sofa and then his apartment was set on fire.

[575] He's 29 years old.

[576] Holy shit.

[577] Someone take a shot.

[578] Holy shit, right?

[579] Because he's so young.

[580] And then four days later, so they just think that's standard murder in New York City in 1973.

[581] Four days later a man named Donald McNiven who was 40 years old and a guy named John P .W. Beardsley age 53 were both found in Donald's apartment on Varek Street.

[582] They both lived in the building, but they were in Donald's apartment.

[583] And again, the apartment had been set on fire.

[584] And Beardsley was actually on the social register in New York and Philadelphia.

[585] So he was like some fancy he had been a Harvard grad.

[586] And they had no idea.

[587] They just looked like another bad stabbing murder.

[588] I think Beardsley was.

[589] was the one stabbed and McNibbon was bludgeoned.

[590] Did they, and it was four days later?

[591] Four days later.

[592] Did they connect the two immediately, I wonder?

[593] Not at all.

[594] How do you not connect to stabbing and fires?

[595] Well, maybe they might have like noted it, but in the 70s in New York City, I think there's several murders a day.

[596] And they're not sharing precinct to precinct murders.

[597] Right.

[598] Two weeks later, the body of Robin Barrero was found floating in the Hudson River.

[599] And he had been missing for five weeks.

[600] And he was still in a leather jacket.

[601] He was really decomposed, but he had a leather jacket on.

[602] And then nine days after that, two gay men were murdered.

[603] I think they think they were roommates and their dog, their pet poodle.

[604] No. Yes.

[605] And from the stuff that was in the apartment at that murder is when they started.

[606] started putting together, these are all people who have something to do with the leather community.

[607] Okay, I was going to say that that would make sense.

[608] Yeah, the leather jacket started.

[609] And in that first guy, Robert Barrero, or sorry, Ronald Cabo, the picture that they have up of him, he's really young, and he's wearing a leather jacket.

[610] So I'm sure at the time, it was like, oh, that's just fashion choice, whatever.

[611] But then person after person, they're probably finding different things.

[612] And so by the end, one of the jackets, they got the tag.

[613] they found, it belonged to a store in the West Village that was completely an S &M store.

[614] Yeah.

[615] S &M clothing and supplies.

[616] So it was like a leather gay, gay boys killing.

[617] And so that's when they start to realize, oh, this is gay.

[618] But once again, it's just like the freeway murders in L .A. When it's a gay community thing or any disenfranchised when it's prostitutes, totally.

[619] The cops are like, who cares?

[620] No one cares and we're not going to get pressure from City Hall.

[621] I mean, I'm sure they could if it's someone in the community and everyone who's being killed is in that community, you talk to the rest of the people in that community and they're like, this guy's creepy and has gone home with all of these men.

[622] Right.

[623] It's pretty simple.

[624] No, it's not.

[625] I mean, I'm sure it's not that simple, but it seems like.

[626] It's not that simple, but it's the thing of what people decide to value.

[627] Right.

[628] So if the people in power don't value your life or you're what you do in the community, if they actually think you're gross or bad or judge you morally, then they won't try to help you or they won't feel any you know, burning desire to find your killer.

[629] Well, they say, I mean, this is what they say and I've totally, so they say you're living a high risk lifestyle already.

[630] Are you living a high risk lifestyle?

[631] Well, then are you a prostitute?

[632] Are you a drug addict?

[633] Are you living, you know, in a gay community where you're around a lot of strange men a lot?

[634] Yeah.

[635] That's a high risk lifestyle.

[636] And they care less.

[637] about you.

[638] Because they think you kind of living a high risk lifestyle means you kind of deserved it.

[639] It's, you brought it on yourself.

[640] I'm not saying, I am not saying I think that.

[641] Of course not.

[642] Right.

[643] But it's an excuse, I'm sure when cops see, you know, New York City in the 70s, they saw probably 20 murders a day.

[644] Yeah.

[645] So you're trying to somehow prioritize these things or you can't put your heart and soul into every single thing that comes across your death.

[646] Totally.

[647] But so, but I'm sure it got very easy to start marginalizing the deaths of these people or to not put.

[648] thing you know yeah things together yeah so anyway body parts start washing up on the shore of the hudson river so there's like apparently there's a gay cruising spot um by the hudson river peers and that's where different body parts uh wrapped in garbage bags start showing up and so they putting all this together um they started calling the whole case the in the bag killer oh wow and so you can tell by that, you know, obviously there's not a lot of sensitivity back then anyway, but that's basically their attitude about all the stuff that's going on.

[649] So, then a drag performer, they said drag performer in this article, but let's call her a drag queen.

[650] I bet she was a queen.

[651] Yeah.

[652] And her name was Tony Lee and she was strangled in her apartment in the West Village and the Village Voice wrote a big article about it because she was famous.

[653] A lot of people knew her.

[654] And that's when they started to really put together.

[655] They knew for a fact that after hours and after like the normal bars, she would go to leather bars.

[656] And so that's when they were like, we think we really, we're onto something with this like leather theory.

[657] And then a man named Addison Verrill, who was 36, and he was the film critic for Variety magazine.

[658] He was found stabbed and bludgeon stabbed and bludgeoned with a cast iron skillet in his apartment.

[659] And so where all of them are in their own apartments, meaning that this person was allowed.

[660] to come in.

[661] Yes, that's right.

[662] That's what scares me the most is like, yeah, I know this person.

[663] I see him around my scene.

[664] Yeah, it's pickup stuff.

[665] It's like they're going to sex bars or going to leather bars.

[666] Or just, you know, the 70s, this is like the looking for Mr. Goodbar.

[667] Totally.

[668] Where everybody was like, it was post hippie shit where people are like, yeah, I'm sexually liberated.

[669] It was pre -AIDS epidemic.

[670] Yeah.

[671] Where it was kind of like, yeah, everybody wants to have sex.

[672] Let's do this thing.

[673] Yeah.

[674] There's a lot of trust.

[675] And especially with, they were, and this thing I was reading about is like the leather community, there's lots, you know, like leather daddies are like really big, musly men.

[676] Yeah.

[677] So they don't think anyone's going to hurt them.

[678] They're, you know, in charge.

[679] It's all, it's very overblown, presentational masculinity.

[680] It's less of a risk than a woman going home with a man because a man can defend himself supposedly against another man. Yeah.

[681] Exactly.

[682] And also they're like, that's part of the play, which I'm sure is the other thing.

[683] the cops were like, you know, this is a little something that got out of hand type of thing, because this is what you're into anyway.

[684] Right.

[685] Blame, blame, blame.

[686] Right.

[687] So this journalist named Arthur Bell wrote up this big article after Addison Varel after the story came out that he was stabbed because the whole the whole story about Addison Varel was whitewashed.

[688] They didn't talk about him being gay.

[689] It was very like a terrible murder, but they made it sound like a passing thing.

[690] And Arthur Bell was like, there's a serious serial killer in our community and we have to start giving a shit.

[691] And if nobody's going to give a shit about somebody that's famous, like, you know, like this is our chance or whatever.

[692] So he wrote a big, huge article for The Village Voice about that people needed to start, like real police work needed to start going into this because people were very afraid.

[693] And then he got a phone call.

[694] Arthur Bell, this journalist, he gets a phone call from a man who tells him.

[695] him, I'm the guy that killed Addison Varyl.

[696] And we were together.

[697] I met him at a bar.

[698] We went back to his apartment.

[699] And while we were, like after we had sex, I had an epiphany.

[700] And I realized this was not a reciprocal relationship.

[701] He didn't love me. He didn't want to be my boyfriend.

[702] He didn't want to get married.

[703] And I wasn't getting anything I wanted.

[704] And that's why I killed him.

[705] And he tells him a bunch of specifics, including that there was Crisco all over the scene of the crime, which was a very common lubricant that people used back then.

[706] But that had not been released to the press in any way.

[707] And so Arthur Bell calls the cops and says, I just got this phone call.

[708] It was crazy.

[709] I figured I should tell you.

[710] And he starts telling them these details that no one else knows besides the cops, and the cops know this is the real guy.

[711] Holy crap.

[712] So he talked to the real killer, which is insane.

[713] So then Arthur gets a call from a guy named Richard Ryan who said he also knew who the killer was because he had met him and talked to him and this guy had basically told him, I think he said he met him in AA or something and he basically had been trying to get sober and had admitted to him that like he had killed Addison Barrel.

[714] Wow.

[715] And so...

[716] But that's the only one he admitted to killing.

[717] Yes.

[718] So he, Arthur Bell takes that information, goes to the cops, gives them the name, and that's when they go and find Paul Bateson.

[719] And after they arrested Bateson, he was in Rikers.

[720] And apparently he was bragging to everybody in there that he not only killed Addison Varel, but he was killing, quote, like a bunch of gay guys just for fun because he was bored.

[721] Holy shit.

[722] And so then.

[723] Just for fun because he was bored.

[724] Yeah.

[725] He was starting to impress, impress, people.

[726] Go bowling, dude.

[727] He was cutting people up, wrapping their parts in bags and dumping them in the river.

[728] So they think he's actually, they think he's responsible for way more murders, but he would only he pled guilty to the Addison barrel murder.

[729] Got 20 years and he got out in 2004.

[730] 20 years from just for stabbing, bludgeoning murder.

[731] Just because you got sad that someone didn't love you.

[732] Dude.

[733] Oh, you mean the murderer?

[734] Yeah.

[735] Oh, yeah.

[736] No. Yeah, you got bummed that Addison didn't love you.

[737] But you know this.

[738] I mean, he's kind of psychotic or, you know.

[739] Yeah, but it's so weird.

[740] Like, so an un, what's the word I'm looking of?

[741] It's not like they got in a fight.

[742] He just killed him.

[743] And he only gets 20 years.

[744] Yeah.

[745] That bothers me so much.

[746] Well, he's crazy.

[747] He clearly can't, you know.

[748] I know.

[749] What's he going to have another relationship?

[750] I just hate.

[751] I hate that there are people like that out there.

[752] Yeah, there's lots of them.

[753] I don't.

[754] So, but here's the interesting thing.

[755] So William Freakin hears about this.

[756] Mm -hmm.

[757] finds out that an extra in his movie was a serial killer, goes to Rikers and starts interviewing him and then decides and in the meantime somebody else I don't have the author's name wrote a book called cruising which was about a serial killer in the 70s leather scene in New York City.

[758] And so Friedkin goes and talks to Paul Bateson and then decides he's going to direct the movie.

[759] No way.

[760] And so there's a movie called cruising starring Al Pacino about a cop that's going under cover in the New York City leather scene to find a serial killer.

[761] Did you watch it?

[762] I have not seen it.

[763] I wonder if it's easy to find or if it's one of those.

[764] I think it is.

[765] Well, it's kind of infamous because it's very homophobic.

[766] It's very bad.

[767] Yeah.

[768] Like it basically says all these people are deviance without morals and would kill you or kill anybody and there's a lot of bad stuff in it.

[769] And when the gay community found out that they were shooting this movie in New York City they all, it basically galvanized the gay rights movement and they would go down and like protest the shooting while they were filming.

[770] So they would go down with whistles that they were holding up like mirrors and making light go into the scenes or whatever.

[771] That's great.

[772] But they ended up shooting it anyway.

[773] They got it done.

[774] And when it came out, everyone was like, this is the worst like up until that point.

[775] Most gay men in film were like, oh, you're the kooky butler that has no real life.

[776] or personality.

[777] And they don't actually say you're gay.

[778] They just imply it.

[779] You're just a joke.

[780] You're just a joke.

[781] And now you're not just, now you're, when you're not a joke, you're a murderer.

[782] Who deserve, and a murder victim, who kind of deserves it.

[783] You're a victim, exactly.

[784] And everything about your life lacks all morals and you're just, you're basically, yeah.

[785] How much more real would that whole story be if, if the person, the murderer, it had nothing to do with the fact that he was gay?

[786] He's just a fucking psychopathic murderer.

[787] Yes.

[788] You know?

[789] Yeah.

[790] But I mean, yeah it's just the whole thing is is super awful there's a great movie called the celluloid closet and it's a documentary about you know all like gay people in Hollywood and all and the treatment of them and basically the way they've been presented and seen it's pretty fascinating and they talk about cruising it's really good I think that's it I had something else but sorry my cats are attacking each other next to you that's amazing that's it so tell me his name again?

[791] I want to go Paul Bateson is his name.

[792] I want to go back and see that scene where there's a fucking real -life serial killer.

[793] I know.

[794] It's really good.

[795] It's very, very creepy scene.

[796] Now, I should have watched, I just didn't have time to watch cruising, but I also know it's incredibly depressing.

[797] There's no point in you watching that.

[798] And I also read, like, reviews of it, and apparently it doesn't, it's not very cohesive, and it was initially rated X. So they had to pull out all these scenes because there's all this, like, you know, kind of intense leather scene.

[799] Yeah.

[800] shit.

[801] And they wouldn't be MPAA or whatever they're called would not let William Freakken.

[802] So basically when he had to edit it, it came out way shorter and almost nonsensical.

[803] Oh my God.

[804] Yeah.

[805] And people always talk about wanting to go back in time, which I totally fucking do.

[806] But the 70s, even the 70s, the 80s, the 90s, were so racist and homophobic and fucking sexist.

[807] Would you really want to go back?

[808] I mean, that's a thing.

[809] It's just this, it's, the more we talk about stuff like this It just becomes this humanist thing to me where it's just like we have, people have to, I mean, it's separate from mentally ill people who just like have to murder or whatever.

[810] But it's a thing of like we have to look at each other as human beings.

[811] It's crazy that, you know what I mean?

[812] We always want to go, oh, those people, they get what they deserve.

[813] Or it's like, are you fucking crazy?

[814] Yeah.

[815] But if something happens to you, you don't deserve it.

[816] Yeah, someone could, you and I could be in a category that someone, a lot of people out there would say that about for whatever reason, because we're women, because we live in Los Angeles, because, you know, whatever the reasons.

[817] Yeah.

[818] So people could say that about you.

[819] So why would you say that about other people?

[820] Right.

[821] It's just, I don't know.

[822] I don't know.

[823] At the end of all these stories, I'm always like, oh, that's lame.

[824] I'm sorry, I brought it up.

[825] I'm sorry, I brought it up.

[826] It's a rough one.

[827] It's called my favorite murder.

[828] I'm sorry.

[829] I brought it up.

[830] I'm not.

[831] Yeah, there's something fascinating.

[832] to the idea that there's just like a person in a horror movie that's also living is walking the walk.

[833] I wonder if he in his twisted brain was like laughing at the irony of it too.

[834] I know, I wonder.

[835] He's apparently a very bad alcoholic too.

[836] So he claimed he didn't remember a lot.

[837] He's still alive and he's out.

[838] Yeah, yeah.

[839] I think he's died since.

[840] He's got out in 2004.

[841] He's living in upstate New York.

[842] What did he do after?

[843] Just chill and make breakfast.

[844] Did he make breakfast for himself every day?

[845] You know what?

[846] He went down to the community center, and he...

[847] That's so crazy.

[848] He loved to help with the spaghetti dinner every month.

[849] Isn't it crazy that you only have to go door to door and let your community know if you're a pedophile, but not if you're a convicted murderer?

[850] Serial killer.

[851] A convicted serial murderer.

[852] He wasn't convicted for all of them.

[853] So, yeah, just a killer.

[854] Just a killer.

[855] Karen, do you have any updates on your story?

[856] There is, well, it's like a corrections corner.

[857] There's confusion in this episode of...

[858] about whether or not Paul Bateson had begun killing before he appeared in this movie, in The Exorcist.

[859] Like, now they believe he began to kill men in 1977.

[860] This movie was filmed in 1972.

[861] So it's a future serial killer that you're seeing in that movie, not an active serial killer.

[862] Oh, my God.

[863] Yeah.

[864] And then, so we also don't know where he is now, which is fun.

[865] Right.

[866] Right.

[867] So he served a 24 -year sentence, and then he was given parole on August 25, 2003, from the Staten Island prison where he was being held.

[868] He was 63 at the time.

[869] He was done with parole in 2008, and no one knows where he is.

[870] There were rumors he was living in upstate New York.

[871] No one knows whether or not he's still alive.

[872] And people have tried to figure it out and look into it.

[873] there's people named Paul Bateson, like someone named Paul Bateson died in September of 2012, but they don't know if that's him.

[874] Yeah.

[875] It's, yeah, they can't, it seems the same.

[876] They can't prove it.

[877] That's 24 years and then paroled at a, you know, relatively young age, then you're off parole and goodbye, good luck.

[878] And you're a true serial killer.

[879] This is not like, this is not some horrible heat of the moment.

[880] Yes, it's not a passion, a crime of passion.

[881] It's not any of that.

[882] This is a person who very intentionally stalked and killed men.

[883] I mean, to me, that's hiding in plain sight more than you being a serial killer that hasn't been caught.

[884] That you being a serial killer that's been caught and released.

[885] And good luck and God bless.

[886] Yeah.

[887] It's wild.

[888] It's truly crazy.

[889] It does feel like, I think when we talk about stuff like this, it's like, shouldn't there be a separate class?

[890] of talking about jail and holding people who literally can't stop killing other people or can't stop raping other people.

[891] Like, shouldn't that whole thing go differently for them?

[892] Because especially these stories that are from the 70s or earlier, where it's like they go to jail for eight years or something, it's wild.

[893] If we're going to talk about that, let's talk about statute of limitations.

[894] Hate them.

[895] All right, well, now we're going to listen to George's story on this episode, her story, about two children who committed murder themselves.

[896] Here we go.

[897] Hey, what's your murder?

[898] Hey, okay, so hiding in plain sight.

[899] When you said that to me, I was like, oh, okay, I didn't really get it.

[900] No, I was excited about it because I was like, so you mean like serial killers who have day jobs?

[901] Like, I didn't really understand it.

[902] So I was like, yeah, that's kind of what I meant.

[903] Okay, yeah.

[904] And you said yes.

[905] So I was like, what does that mean to me hiding in plain sight?

[906] And to me that meant being, and I'm fascinated by this and how disgusting it is hiding in plain sight is being a child who kills someone because that's plain sight is being a child and this this one is kind of so i have two similar but very different child murderers that i've always thought about because they're so fucked up and the first one is the murderer is josh phillips okay um and he killed mattie clifton so do you know this one no yeah this one is a kind of well -known one but i just it's interesting because recently some new information came out about it.

[907] So basically in this kid, Josh Phillips was born in 1984.

[908] He's from Jacksonville, Florida.

[909] And in July 1999, he was convicted of murdering his eight -year -old neighbor, Maddie Clifton.

[910] He murdered her in November 98.

[911] He was 14 years old, and she was nine years old.

[912] And what happened was Maddie disappeared.

[913] And the whole community started looking for her and couldn't find her.

[914] And then the search ended a week after the disappearance when Josh Phillips' mother went to clean up Josh's room and thought his waterbed was leaking, which A, don't get your kid a waterbed.

[915] B, it's not leaking.

[916] You're not like a bachelor.

[917] What is that?

[918] Yeah, way to give your kid fucking back problems and send them to jail at the same time because what's more comfortable?

[919] The waterbed or the jail mattress?

[920] I don't know.

[921] It's always the mother's fault.

[922] It's Melissa, you needed to get this together.

[923] Upon further examination, she discovered that it was Maddie's body hidden inside, hidden like underneath the bed.

[924] And she, and fucking kudos to her, ran outside across the street.

[925] There was a police and was like, hey, this kid, you know, like some parents, I don't know if they would do that immediately or they would wait until he came home and talking.

[926] I'm like, what the fuck?

[927] And then call the police.

[928] She was like, get the fuck, you know, freaked out.

[929] Oh, that is amazing.

[930] So Josh was arrested at school that day and he was held in a maximum.

[931] submit security.

[932] So here's what's so fucked up about it.

[933] As a 14 -year -old, he was tried as an adult and sentenced to life without the possibility of parole.

[934] Like adult killers who kill more people in a more fucked up way and sexually assault them are not given such a harsh sentence.

[935] And so according to Josh, what happened was that Maddie came next door to play with him and despite the fact that Josh wasn't allowed to have people over when his parents weren't home, he let her in anyway.

[936] the two are playing, according to him, the two are playing baseball outside.

[937] Josh drew the ball and it struck Maddie in the eye causing her to start bleeding.

[938] And she started to scream.

[939] And Josh freaks out because his father is abusive and has a temper.

[940] And if he finds out that Maddie's there, the fact that she's screaming and got hurt at his house, he's going to be in a shit ton of trouble, including being abused.

[941] So he takes her to his room.

[942] I don't know if I should even go into the details because I know people who are listening have children and I don't want to...

[943] Well, if you have children and you are listening to a murder podcast but you're going to get sensitive then I would go forward one minute and 30 seconds.

[944] Thank you.

[945] Basically, she died from stabbing and strangulation and clubbing with a baseball bat.

[946] Overkill.

[947] Took her pants off but didn't, but she wasn't molested, which is odd.

[948] Also, I was reading something on Reddit that said that she didn't have any, he said he dragged her inside the house, but there wasn't any dirt or sticks or anything on her, on her body, on her clothes, which would indicate that that had happened.

[949] So we don't really know for sure.

[950] And that's a really, that's, I mean, he tries to get off easy by saying he hit her in the head, but then he goes on to over and tells how he killed her.

[951] So it's not like he was, if he was lying about one of them, why wouldn't he lie about both of them?

[952] Yeah.

[953] So he's, he's never going to be free she was nude from the waist down but it didn't seem and so the murder appears to have been motivated by his fear of his abusive father it's just so fucked up do they know that's true or that be another thing he could have been making it yeah we don't know that either or even that maybe the because I watched a couple episodes of true crime shows where the parents get interviewed and maybe that was something they made up even to say like oh no the father was abusive and he was scared of him like, let's give him an out.

[954] So we don't know if that was true or not.

[955] You think you're right, especially the stabbing part.

[956] Yeah.

[957] His stabbing is such a furious and personal thing.

[958] He also choked her for 15 minutes.

[959] Oh, yeah.

[960] That is a lot.

[961] And it's very hard to choke someone to death.

[962] I think we all, if you're into true crime, you know this.

[963] It takes a lot longer and a lot more force than you.

[964] And that's when you're an adult.

[965] That's when you're an adult.

[966] But she's also eight or nine, so she's probably a little more fragile.

[967] She's, I mean, the thing that fucks me up about this is that she's this little tomboy girl.

[968] And she reminds me of me as a kid who wanted to hang out with the older boys and play with them and be one of the guys.

[969] There's a video, there's a home video he made that the boy made of this little girl, Maddie and her sister playing with their new puppy.

[970] So like she trusted this kid next door.

[971] She wanted to come over and was bugging him to play with her.

[972] And as a 14 year old, a 14 year old.

[973] Did he have like a history of anything?

[974] Not, no. No mental, no mental stuff or anything?

[975] The dad died in a car accident eventually.

[976] Okay, so in 2012, recently, the Supreme Court ruled that automatic life without parole sentences for juveniles is unconstitutional.

[977] And that ruling entitles Phillips, we're resentencing hearing.

[978] Also, he's super hot now.

[979] Whatever.

[980] That's just beside the point.

[981] But let's just put it out.

[982] Let's just let everyone know that.

[983] Let's just get those people on Tinder aware.

[984] Yeah.

[985] So, and there's not a ton of conversation about this murder, like on Reddit or anything like that.

[986] So I just thought it was interesting.

[987] I agree that life without parole for a 14 year old is insane.

[988] Even though I get it, I mean that stabbing a little girl to death and strangling.

[989] Something happened to that boy.

[990] Yeah.

[991] Something very bad happened to that boy, whether it's a psychotic break, whether it was something to, he was terribly abused.

[992] Well, there was an interesting conversation in Reddit and like the one little bit I was able to find where this this commenter was saying, you know, when I was a kid, my dad was abusive.

[993] And all you wanted to do is not get in trouble.

[994] You didn't think about what would happen in the future if you got caught hiding, whatever it was that you were in trouble.

[995] Getting in trouble meant the whole family would be terrorized.

[996] So you do whatever you can to not get in trouble that moment.

[997] And it kind of made sense in a way that was like, she's not dying from this way.

[998] I need to kill her at this point and get it over with because I'm going to get in trouble for having had someone over, which is, you know, maybe he was a little, maybe he was developmentally delayed, but 14 year old, 14 seems too old to think that killing someone was an okay solution to that.

[999] Yeah, for sure.

[1000] Also, I feel like hitting someone in the head and being afraid, and this is just theory, obviously, he would just hit her in the head a bunch more times.

[1001] Right.

[1002] Why not just smack her in the head with it?

[1003] baseball bat.

[1004] The other part just gets so violent, up close, crazy bloody.

[1005] I mean, like, oh my God.

[1006] Yeah, almost like wanting to see what happens, you know?

[1007] And the pants down thing is not good.

[1008] The pants down thing is a very, a very, it's sexual no matter what.

[1009] Yeah.

[1010] So even if you didn't touch her, it's sexual.

[1011] Yes.

[1012] And stabbing is sexual in that, you know, in that psychosexual way.

[1013] Yeah, totally.

[1014] Strangling too.

[1015] I mean, Yeah.

[1016] Oh man. I mean, and when you strangle someone, you for the most part, have to look at them in the face.

[1017] Yeah.

[1018] If you can fucking do that, you got some major issues beyond you being scared.

[1019] You're going to get a belt whipping from your dad.

[1020] Yeah.

[1021] And also, I mean, people always say this, but I'll just say it anyway.

[1022] There's, you can hear the chorus of people who were abused by terrible parents who were like, I would never kill anybody.

[1023] Right.

[1024] So it's not A plus B. Like, I think.

[1025] yeah that that psychiatric element is absolutely has to be there yeah because here's the other thing too you're right a mother who would immediately run across the street like obviously it's insane finding a dead body under your son's bed yeah but the she knew yeah she knew he did it like it wasn't I don't know she didn't go let's let the cops tell us what happened she went you have to go get my son her first her first thought was for the girl the little girl and her and her family who was waiting to find where she was and not for her kid or for the dad who, you know, because if you find the body someone in the house did it, you might not know it's your son.

[1026] Her first thought was that I found this, the girl.

[1027] Yeah.

[1028] She's clearly the victim, not my son.

[1029] That's amazing.

[1030] Yeah.

[1031] That's it's fucked up.

[1032] There's another one too, but maybe I don't need to get into it.

[1033] Do it, do it.

[1034] It's just Eric Smith, the red, like the little redhead kid.

[1035] He killed a parents?

[1036] No. Okay, so Eric Smith, born 1980.

[1037] Um, he murdered four -year -old Derek Roby on August 2nd, 1993.

[1038] This is in Steuben County, New York.

[1039] So Eric had, Eric, unlike Josh, had been diagnosed by a defense psychiatrist with intermittent explosive disorder, such a mental disorder, causing individuals to act out violently and unpredictably.

[1040] Um, he was a loner.

[1041] He was tormented by bullies.

[1042] He was like a nerdy redhead.

[1043] You look at him as a kid in court, especially.

[1044] These videos of him in court, and he's just this.

[1045] You can tell he's troubled just by looking at him.

[1046] You can tell he's been bullied.

[1047] You can tell he didn't like himself.

[1048] And he basically said he took his anger out on this little kid, this sweet little Derek Robey, who was riding his bike to Summer Camp.

[1049] And let's see, Eric was riding his bike to Summer Camp.

[1050] and four -year -old Derek was walking alone to the same camp.

[1051] They saw each other.

[1052] He lured him into the nearby woods and then Smith like overkilled the shit out of him.

[1053] Like, so this was on purpose.

[1054] Like, you know, it's such a weird thing.

[1055] It's like, well, these two different things where this kid said that he had to do it because he hit her in the head and his dad was going to find out, this kid just straight up wanted to murder someone.

[1056] Yeah.

[1057] And I remember hearing this thing about one of the, one of the many fucking true crime shows I watched that he, that, that, uh, Eric took a banana out of his lunch and smashed it into the little kid's face.

[1058] And later that night, the aunt or someone was babysitting him and got a banana out and the kid freaked out.

[1059] And I think that's how they figured out who it was.

[1060] The kid freaked out over the banana.

[1061] So basically, uh, he, Smith said that he been bullied by older children in high school and that is by his, also by his father and sister.

[1062] And he confessed that he took his rage dead on Roby, but was worried that Roby would tell, so he killed him.

[1063] It's very odd.

[1064] How old is he when he did it?

[1065] So this kid was, Eric was, I think he was 14 as well.

[1066] Oh, wow.

[1067] I just remember looking at pictures of him.

[1068] Oh, you know why?

[1069] Because when I was doing those two boys that killed their dad, his picture came up all the time.

[1070] And he looks so young.

[1071] He looks looks he's in a blazer.

[1072] He doesn't look 13.

[1073] He looks like he could be he looks like he's 9.

[1074] 11 or 12, yeah 9.

[1075] And he's got those ears that stick out.

[1076] Big old ears.

[1077] And if you look at him now, too, because there's some interviews with, there's some jailhouse interviews with him now.

[1078] Or he, like, he's just so apologetic to the family.

[1079] He says, I wish I could take the kids place.

[1080] Like, he's very, very remorseful about it.

[1081] But even now he looks, he looks like, remember the redheaded guy and the burbs who lived, who was one of the haunted that lived in the house?

[1082] He looks like, him now.

[1083] It's just like he doesn't look, which is such, I shouldn't judge someone by the way they look, but, you know.

[1084] Well, I mean, that's why people get bullied.

[1085] If you look different.

[1086] Yeah, definitely.

[1087] It's, oh.

[1088] Well, so he's been apologizing through in prison.

[1089] This other kid, Josh, he has since gone on to, he got his, he got a degree in being a paralegal, and he's been working as a paralegal helping other inmates with their appeals.

[1090] So both of these people have like, have gone on to, try to make amends for their, their murder.

[1091] Do they deserve to be in prison forever?

[1092] And I'm not, I'm not asking, like, they don't.

[1093] I fucking don't know.

[1094] Right.

[1095] It really brings, well, it makes you come way off the, like, let them all fry.

[1096] Which is, I like to feel that way just because it's very comfortable and, like, a solution.

[1097] But it's the same reason that I don't, I still can't give anyone a definite answer about the death penalty.

[1098] Right.

[1099] I just couldn't give anyone an answer.

[1100] Right.

[1101] Wow.

[1102] That's a rough run.

[1103] I mean, we just.

[1104] say it every time.

[1105] We might as well have just pre -taped and we roll that in of like, wow, that was awful.

[1106] Wow, that was bad.

[1107] And also, wow, those stick in my head and always have and I'll always think about them randomly all the time.

[1108] I think about all of these.

[1109] Yeah.

[1110] So are there updates for your story?

[1111] Well, so I mentioned in the episode that in 2012, the Supreme Court ruled that automatic life without parole sentences for juveniles were unconstitutional.

[1112] And so in 2017, the year after this episode was recorded, Phillips did get a resentencing hearing, and he expressed regret for murdering eight -year -old Maddie Clifton.

[1113] He claimed not to understand what he was doing at the time, and a psychologist testified that he believed Phillips was truly remorseful and had been rehabilitated, but the judge ultimately resentenced Phillips to life in prison with an opportunity to have a sentence reviewed after 25 years, and he cited how heinous the murder was, and an appellate court upheld the decision.

[1114] And so that review should occur sometime this year in 2024, which will be 25 years after Phillips' original 1999 sentencing.

[1115] I mean, he spent his whole life in jail.

[1116] Yeah, because he took the life of an eight -year -old.

[1117] Right.

[1118] But I don't know.

[1119] It's this, these are hard ones, especially because they're children.

[1120] Well, and also it's, it's all hard because it's all contextual and it's easy to kind of sit over here knowing we'll never go to jail going those people should do this or that.

[1121] Right, right.

[1122] But for things like this where when you tell the story and you know what happened to that little girl, it's just like, yeah, what is right?

[1123] There's also those things where like when kids kill, it's because incredibly fucked up things have happened to them.

[1124] Right.

[1125] Or they just don't understand what they're doing.

[1126] They don't understand the permanence of that.

[1127] Yeah.

[1128] Or the Mary Bell story.

[1129] Yeah.

[1130] where all the worst things had already happened to her.

[1131] She did it in that way of like, someone's kind of doing this to me. It's just like marrying someone's actions, absolutely.

[1132] Horrifying.

[1133] And then for the Eric Smith case, he actually spent 28 years behind bars for the 93 murder of 4 -year -old Derek Roby when Smith was 13.

[1134] And Smith was finally granted parole in 2021 after being denied in 10 previous hearings.

[1135] He was ultimately released in February of 2022 at the age of 40, two years old and he now lives in Queens, New York.

[1136] It's like one is home and living his life and one is still behind bars and it's like, how are they different and like what makes one person more remorseful or more rehabilitated than the other?

[1137] It's just such a, I mean, it just depends on the judge, really.

[1138] And the jury?

[1139] I mean, are there people there that are also listening to all the facts and then like weighing in on that?

[1140] I don't know.

[1141] I think in this kind of case, it's a judge only, maybe?

[1142] Hey, let us know legal people.

[1143] Yeah.

[1144] All right, so let's, um, it's hometown time.

[1145] So let's listen to the original episode nine hometown.

[1146] Do you want to read us, let's see, why don't we do this?

[1147] So you want to read a favorite, a hometown murder that we got emailed.

[1148] You can email us at My Favorite Murder at Gmail, your hometown murder.

[1149] We'll read one every fucking week, even though we get so many.

[1150] It's incredible.

[1151] I love you guys.

[1152] And then maybe let's do a quick, separate.

[1153] episode of other people's on the Facebook page, I said what's your hidden in plain sight murder?

[1154] Oh yeah.

[1155] And I can read a few of those and maybe we can read one or two hometown murders.

[1156] So we'll have a mini episode that'll come out maybe a couple days after the regular one comes out.

[1157] Great.

[1158] Is that cool?

[1159] I love it.

[1160] Okay.

[1161] So why don't you read me a hometown murder please?

[1162] Okay, cool.

[1163] This is also another now I'm getting obsessed with follow -up.

[1164] Oh.

[1165] I'm getting obsessed with like thoroughness and research and but I really do genuinely love it.

[1166] So this is a bit of a follow -up, but there's much more to it.

[1167] Okay.

[1168] And it's from Lily Kay, we'll say.

[1169] Hi, Karen and Georgia.

[1170] Can't believe how much you sound like my friend Julie and I when we're together and really get going.

[1171] I've been obsessed with true crime for so long that I became a forensic psychologist.

[1172] You are a fucking badass, Lily.

[1173] Why not do what you love?

[1174] There's nothing else in the entire world I'd rather do.

[1175] And yes, you can intern for me sometimes.

[1176] Yes.

[1177] Way to go.

[1178] I make my husband watch all the true crime shows, and now when he gets sick, and he's convinced I'm poisoned him.

[1179] Like those deadly women of centuries past.

[1180] I love it.

[1181] Anyway, I just found your podcast and your call for hometown crime.

[1182] Then I saw you did mine in your second episode, bummer, but I decided not to listen to it yet and pretend you didn't do it, so I can tell you about it.

[1183] I love it.

[1184] Paul Bernardo was mine.

[1185] And like I mentioned, it affected me so much that I became a forensic psychologist.

[1186] When I was in high school in Toronto, Toronto, the Scarborough suburb of Toronto rapes were going on.

[1187] It was terrifying.

[1188] The bus company started letting women out at any point along the route at night, not just at stops so we wouldn't have to walk far from the stop to home.

[1189] Oh, wow.

[1190] Our regular gym classes were canceled, and we got a specialist in to teach us self -defense.

[1191] Holy shit.

[1192] Also, there was a guy at my high school who looked more like the sketch of the Scarborough rapist.

[1193] than Paul ever did.

[1194] And he said he was thinking of changing his hair when the sketch came out, but he was afraid that that would actually make him look more guilty.

[1195] And then she put in parentheses, it wasn't him, by the way.

[1196] Okay, so just as the rapes started slowing down, we heard about two girls go missing on the other side of Toronto.

[1197] Did you know Leslie Mahaffee was actually locked out of her house the night that she met Paul Bernardo?

[1198] Horrible.

[1199] She was a rebellious teen, and her mom picked that night to do some tough love on her when she broke curfew and locked her out.

[1200] Oh my mom.

[1201] Can I just say my mom, tough love is a, like, was a thing.

[1202] And my mom fucking did it.

[1203] And it was the worst.

[1204] In the 80s.

[1205] Yeah, kids, parents, please don't do tough love on your kids.

[1206] It doesn't work.

[1207] Yeah.

[1208] That's right.

[1209] Oh.

[1210] Sorry, go on.

[1211] No, that's okay.

[1212] Oh my God.

[1213] So she locked her kid out.

[1214] Her own mother locked her out of the house.

[1215] How much does that woman hate herself now?

[1216] Oh, I can't imagine.

[1217] I mean, that is if she's even still alive.

[1218] No. That is, for sure.

[1219] Talk of her.

[1220] about the worst thing in the world.

[1221] Totally.

[1222] A child dying and then you, oh my God, that's a nightmare.

[1223] And then Kristen French was also portrayed as the good girl and Leslie as the more rebellious.

[1224] And Tammy Carla's sister was basically a forgotten.

[1225] I know every single detail about this case, but in case you don't want to hear it, I'll get to some good anecdotes.

[1226] This was going on throughout my entire high school life, the rapes, the murders.

[1227] Then my last year of high school, they found out it was Paul and Carla.

[1228] So, of course, I went to the trial.

[1229] I actually had this college boyfriend.

[1230] I wasn't that into, and I made him go with me. Poor guy.

[1231] He was really upset about being there, but I loved it.

[1232] Paul, oh, it says Paul was so incredibly in court.

[1233] I wonder what she meant.

[1234] When they took his handcuffs off, he wouldn't just turn his wrists to have them removed.

[1235] He would turn his entire body.

[1236] It was as if he was trying to look every person in the gallery in the army.

[1237] It was creepy.

[1238] And then in college, a girl in my dorm started dating a guy named Sam who looked by Paul.

[1239] So whenever I had a couple drinks in me, I'd call him Paul.

[1240] I love this chick.

[1241] I also wrote all my psych papers in college on Paul Bernardo or Carla, abnormal psych class, personality class.

[1242] I wanted to know what made them tick.

[1243] And then she was a second one, but it's super long.

[1244] Yeah.

[1245] What a terrifying fucking thing to go through high school.

[1246] I mean, it took up their whole world.

[1247] old.

[1248] I mean, that was crazy.

[1249] And then to find out that a woman is involved, I don't know why.

[1250] Like, because you would see a couple and you'd think, I'm safe.

[1251] It's the ultimate lure.

[1252] We've talked about that.

[1253] Yeah.

[1254] Episode two was it?

[1255] I think so.

[1256] But that's the reason I love that she gave all those details, because that was the one where I wasn't, I was a little fuzzy on my details.

[1257] And that one really, that you wouldn't know about it.

[1258] Same thing about watching The Simpsons is that it's information that, you know, you watch the whole trial, but you could not have known what it was like to be on the jury or what it was like in Marsha Clark.

[1259] office when her boss was pissed about the glove, that it was their idea to have him try the glove on.

[1260] Yeah.

[1261] And also that like being, I love that she loved it so much, she went to trials.

[1262] Yeah.

[1263] That's amazing.

[1264] I can't tell you how, like, I've been asking people their hometown murders for years when I met at parties and drinking too much and calling people by murderers' names.

[1265] And this is like just feeding, this is feeding me on a level that I can't even handle.

[1266] You can really put away that voice in your head that says you're weird in any.

[1267] anyway.

[1268] It's just simply not weird.

[1269] Because we have an inbox full of hometown murders to I hope we haven't gotten any like yeah it's incredible.

[1270] Any what?

[1271] Sorry.

[1272] I don't know like I wouldn't like you said someone asked us to be on their podcast and our Gmail and I like I wouldn't see it because it's just buried underneath.

[1273] That is there's at least one person but I think there might be more than one person.

[1274] We need to give them a different email address.

[1275] Yeah.

[1276] I love it.

[1277] I wonder where Lily is now.

[1278] How cool is that.

[1279] I know.

[1280] What if she's like the lead from forensic scientist.

[1281] I don't know.

[1282] Is there something more specific she could have become?

[1283] I don't know.

[1284] Can you write us please and like give us a follow -up please?

[1285] Lily Kay, we need to know about your life now.

[1286] Yes, please.

[1287] All these years later.

[1288] It's the eight and a half year follow -up.

[1289] Oh my God.

[1290] That would be so rad.

[1291] I mean, it's like Lily Kay was the first.

[1292] We've had so many people either write in with their hometown or that we've met in person at the live shows that have told us that like they changed their major or they've always wanted to.

[1293] to be, like, do forensic science, that idea that there would be all these people that kind of go into that line of work.

[1294] Yeah.

[1295] Because they, like, true crime and true crime got popular in 2016 is so exciting to me. That's one of my favorites is, like, I decided to do this, and it's just, it's unreal.

[1296] And also, it's like, I'm going to be a part of the solution.

[1297] I'm going to get in there, use my brain, and try to, like, advance what all of this is.

[1298] Totally.

[1299] And, you know, it's a huge majority is women so it's just like so proud that if we have any little tiny part of that like what more do we fucking need from our lives we've done it you know what we need huh better titles you don't like color me nine okay okay I do actually yeah it's pretty good for a pun I do okay so now we're gonna tell you what titles we would pick now if we were naming this episode not a pun but a quote from what we said during the episode okay so one is you've ruined yourself Love that one.

[1300] I feel like that one's a pretty strong contender.

[1301] That was you talking about ruining the people versus O .J. Simpson, which we called the Simpsons, for listeners.

[1302] We were basically, spoiler, alerting it.

[1303] Yeah, well, you've ruined yourself.

[1304] I can hear myself saying that.

[1305] Sure.

[1306] Sass.

[1307] Then there's someone take a shot, which is you talking about the drinking game, and then you actually say, holy shit in the episode.

[1308] So then you're, take a shot.

[1309] Do it.

[1310] And then I'm sorry I brought it up.

[1311] Were you telling a story and how you feel sometimes after we're talking about these stories?

[1312] Like, I'm sorry I brought it up on the murder podcast, I think, is like how, what you thought, what we were thinking.

[1313] Yeah.

[1314] That encapsulates a lot.

[1315] It does.

[1316] I mean, I'd pick any of those three.

[1317] What would you guys pick?

[1318] I think we've been posting them on social media, like, vote for which one you want.

[1319] And I kind of love that.

[1320] And I've been voting, too.

[1321] I'm not going to like on Instagram.

[1322] A dirty vote?

[1323] You're getting there dirty voting.

[1324] I'm doing a dirty vote.

[1325] Because you can't see the answer of, like, the person.

[1326] Unless you vote.

[1327] So I vote for mine.

[1328] She wants to be a part of everything.

[1329] How about that?

[1330] Oh, there it is.

[1331] We did it.

[1332] We did it.

[1333] It's another rewind episode for all of you.

[1334] Thank you so much for listening.

[1335] You guys have really been supportive and here for this, and it's very exciting.

[1336] It is.

[1337] We appreciate you guys so much.

[1338] Thank you guys for tuning in.

[1339] And stay sexy.

[1340] And don't get murdered.

[1341] Goodbye.

[1342] Alvis, do you want a cookie?