Zazie Beetz

[0] Welcome, welcome, welcome to armchair expert.

[1] I'm Dan Shepard, and I'm joined by Mr. Mouse.

[2] Hi.

[3] Hi.

[4] That's me as a man. I'm a big man, mouse.

[5] This is the Mr. Mouse.

[6] Well, anyone who's listened to multiple episodes of this show will probably know that Zazee Beats is always, which, by the way, let me correct myself.

[7] Now I've been mispronouncing this last four years.

[8] Very embarrassing.

[9] But we address it.

[10] Yeah.

[11] But Zazzie Beats, anytime we talk about celebrity crushes, she pops right up.

[12] She pops right up.

[13] Just loves ZZee.

[14] Of course, Atlanta's where we fell in love with her.

[15] She's an Emmy -nominated actor.

[16] She was also Outstanding in Deadpool, Incredible in The Joker.

[17] The harder they fall, I didn't see.

[18] The bad guys still haven't seen, but I'm going to see.

[19] It's good.

[20] Oh, really?

[21] She's in good movies.

[22] She's got good movie.

[23] I don't know how she goes through picking, but she's pretty huge percentage.

[24] She's also really thoughtful.

[25] This is a sweet interview.

[26] It is.

[27] Yeah, I really, really enjoyed it.

[28] I wasn't inappropriate or purvy.

[29] You did really good.

[30] I was proud.

[31] Thank you.

[32] I have a lot of respect for her.

[33] so I didn't muddle it up with my own things.

[34] But most importantly, she is here to talk about the finale of Atlanta.

[35] And if you're not watching Atlanta, I'm sure you've heard us talk about this a million times.

[36] I mean, it's top three show on television in the last five years.

[37] It's incredible.

[38] Made by one of the top three people.

[39] Speaking of celebrity crushes.

[40] Yes.

[41] Donald.

[42] You love Denald.

[43] What if we found out in that episode that it's Denold Glover?

[44] I would love to find that out.

[45] Will you be a little bit embarrassed like me?

[46] Of course.

[47] Okay.

[48] Enjoy Zazee beats.

[49] Wondry Plus subscribers can listen to armchair expert early and ad free right now.

[50] Join Wondry Plus in the Wondry app or on Apple Podcasts.

[51] Or you can listen for free wherever you get your podcasts.

[52] Can you hear us?

[53] Tell me, can you hear us?

[54] Oh.

[55] Now can you hear us?

[56] Hi.

[57] Yes.

[58] Hi, Ann.

[59] It was so funny to walk in and see you, like, in a wrestling match with something.

[60] It's the mic that you so generously sent my way.

[61] I'm sitting on a bed, and I'm trying to balance it all, so I needed to figure that out.

[62] But I think we got there.

[63] Where is this bed at?

[64] I'm currently in L .A. Why aren't you here?

[65] Yeah, rush over.

[66] I live in New York.

[67] So this was a really last minute trip.

[68] What if we just knocked when we were at the...

[69] Yeah, yeah, you heard a little pitter -patter outside your door.

[70] We're here.

[71] I'd be like, oh, dear Lord.

[72] Are you just eating peanut butter?

[73] Well, almond butter.

[74] My joints hurt if I eat peanut butter.

[75] Don't tell anyone.

[76] He's a very fragile boy.

[77] I'm super delicate.

[78] Don't let this exterior I've crafted fool you.

[79] I'm a very vulnerable, delicate boy.

[80] Vulner boy.

[81] I love peanut butter, so that would be upsetting to me. Oh, guess what, friend?

[82] I loved it, too.

[83] Some jiff crunchy.

[84] Always crunchy.

[85] Always crunchy.

[86] Oh, no, no, no. People who want creamy, it's just like boring.

[87] You guys.

[88] Do you like nuts in your brownies?

[89] Yeah, I like a nut anywhere.

[90] Sure, sure, sure.

[91] That's a great quote just to pull out of context.

[92] That should be the tagline there.

[93] Yeah, could get misquoted.

[94] Like, I'd like to nut anywhere.

[95] Whoa, what?

[96] Can I tell you my hack with the peanut butter since you're still on it.

[97] Yeah.

[98] And maybe you already fuck with it this way.

[99] But what I'll do is I'll toast the bread.

[100] That's great.

[101] Then I put some butter on.

[102] And then that whole setup goes into a toaster oven for a minute to get that peanut butter really warm and liquidy.

[103] I haven't done that.

[104] I have had a toast that's still warm and put it on and been like, oh, I can't spread this correctly.

[105] But it wasn't ever my desired effect.

[106] Do you put anything else on that?

[107] Because I feel like it would be a little dry, just this.

[108] peanut butter.

[109] No. Well, listen, I'm a proponent of a ton of butter as a base as a foundation before you put that peanut butter on there.

[110] And then what you're getting is almost Monica and I's favorite thing.

[111] A cream.

[112] A paste.

[113] A paste.

[114] A cream.

[115] We love a paste.

[116] The peanut butter is now a cream.

[117] Yeah.

[118] Do you ever put a banana on top?

[119] I like it.

[120] I don't really make it.

[121] I like a peanut butter and jelly or like a peanut butter and honey.

[122] Classic.

[123] It's actually really funny to travel.

[124] and tell people, oh, yeah, we eat peanut butter and jelly all the time because in other countries, they think that's a disgusting concept and they don't understand it.

[125] I've always found that really interesting, like, to me, I'm like, how can you not even imagine that that would be good?

[126] Well, there's layers, right?

[127] One is like, oh, what a Philistine, A, then B, oh, you're a child.

[128] There's some kind of implication that you're a fucking child.

[129] Have you ever done grilled peanut butter and jelly?

[130] Because that is where it's at.

[131] No, I haven't.

[132] Oh, my God.

[133] Zossi.

[134] I've been practicing all morning.

[135] I've been saying it wrong for years.

[136] Did I do that right?

[137] Zassi.

[138] Yeah.

[139] You're in good company, so don't worry about that.

[140] Wait, like really?

[141] What is it?

[142] Well, here's the thing.

[143] My name is French.

[144] It's from a book, which was turned into a movie.

[145] So if you're in France, you would say Zazzi.

[146] But my dad, who is German, watched the dubbed movie when he was young.

[147] And they said Zussi.

[148] And so my parents call me Zassi.

[149] But really, it's Zazzi.

[150] Oh, wow.

[151] That's complex.

[152] It's just complicated, but I say Zussie.

[153] And then people call you Zazzy.

[154] Yeah, or Zazzy or Sassy.

[155] Oh, I would have never said Zazzy.

[156] Zassie, I want you.

[157] This is an open invitation to you.

[158] I would be willing to prepare you guys grilled peanut butter and jellies.

[159] It's my daughter's favorite thing.

[160] Man, you have this thing you love, right?

[161] It's a go -to.

[162] It's a staple in your life.

[163] It's foundational.

[164] It's a cornerstone.

[165] And I'm going to turn it on its head for you.

[166] And you're going to be like, hold on a second.

[167] Did you change the ingredients?

[168] I go, no, I just applied heat and butter.

[169] And it's going to blow your mind.

[170] Oh, is it delightful?

[171] Clearly, we love peanut butter and peanut butter and jelly.

[172] And here you are stuck with almond butter.

[173] I know.

[174] It's a real fucking drag.

[175] Okay, first of all, let me just say that I, too, have named the lead character of this book, my mom read, the adventurers.

[176] And so I have this dumb name in Michigan.

[177] It's a bad name on the playground.

[178] It's not good.

[179] Was it really?

[180] Oh, come on.

[181] I guess.

[182] Anything different.

[183] Sounds cool to me. Or maybe it's like a popular sound, like I feel like short and sweet kind of strong name is in.

[184] Yeah, I think that's true.

[185] And ding, ding, ding, it's also the name of the German stock market.

[186] Oh, look at that.

[187] It's also the name of a black hair care product.

[188] So when I moved to downtown Detroit, I had a lot of different friends that brought over their containers of DACs.

[189] And then now I'm an actor.

[190] So now it seems like I made it up.

[191] And so I'm wondering if you had a similar ride with it.

[192] We're like, you weren't stoked to have that name K through 12.

[193] And then now it looks like, oh, this girl fucking came up.

[194] Zazzy beat.

[195] What are you a DJ?

[196] A lot of people think it's a stage name.

[197] I have to say, actually, I always really loved my name.

[198] I think my issue is the pronunciation.

[199] Like, that's always sort of an exhaustive thing.

[200] To the point, I just don't correct people anymore, which I don't know if that's good or bad.

[201] Same thing.

[202] I don't even.

[203] Yeah.

[204] I just, I'm like, it's just taking too much of my energy.

[205] All of our collective energy.

[206] Like, I'll just let you do you.

[207] So this happens to me all the time.

[208] Hey, Dak, nice to me, DAC, and I go, yep.

[209] Yeah.

[210] But then they go, I didn't get that right.

[211] Now there's a second gear to it where it's like, wait.

[212] And I'm like, oh, God, I was trying to make this short.

[213] Kind of like what you did to her.

[214] Absolutely.

[215] But I feel like I've earned it because I've lived this.

[216] I agree.

[217] I think when you've earned it.

[218] Yeah, I see you.

[219] Yeah, exactly.

[220] And I'm like, no, I feel like.

[221] Monica, I'm sure you have very similar feelings.

[222] Yeah, my name's really tricky.

[223] No, I got so lucky because my name could have been.

[224] Oh, sure.

[225] You know, it could have been a lot of things.

[226] And they did me a favor.

[227] Yeah, can I ask you, have you ever heard this show?

[228] No pressure.

[229] I have.

[230] A lot, actually.

[231] A lot?

[232] Yes.

[233] Have you heard me talk about you?

[234] I feel like we should get that out of the way.

[235] No, I haven't.

[236] It's all positive.

[237] I've talked about you probably in 400 episodes.

[238] I don't know how many.

[239] I keep exaggerating it.

[240] Yeah.

[241] Well, a lot of episodes, I bet I've mentioned your name and one of 10 of them.

[242] And I was scared interviewing you because I'm afraid you might be afraid of me. No. I actually, I was nervous.

[243] I was like, I, you know, I'm probably just another, like, young actor.

[244] They like, read a quick Wikipedia page and all right, let's just get this over with.

[245] So it actually makes me really happy.

[246] Thank you.

[247] Well, to assuage your fears, I did read your Wikipedia page and it sucks.

[248] So then I read every interview you did and then I watched every talk show appearance.

[249] So this is weird.

[250] But it must be owned because everyone who listens will know this.

[251] If there's ever a conversation on like celebrity crushes, you're my immediate go -to.

[252] Boom.

[253] Prettyest human being on planet Earth.

[254] Boom.

[255] And then I say your name wrong, which is the worst.

[256] But I just learned that I was saying it wrong.

[257] So I just was nervous going into this like, God, if she heard, and even if not, if people told her like, that guy is fucking, he's kind of obsessed with you.

[258] Yeah, he's a little obsessed with you.

[259] And then, by the way, I don't even know that you would know this.

[260] I don't reach out to people on Instagram.

[261] I've invited maybe two people in my life to do the show on Instagram.

[262] And I've sent you like three or four direct messages.

[263] I don't check my DMs.

[264] That makes me feel better.

[265] I've also sent you a DM.

[266] Yeah.

[267] Oh, really?

[268] Oh, gosh.

[269] I should because every now and then I'll scroll through and I'm like, oh, I'm glad I saw this person and I can connect.

[270] I get so overwhelmed by it.

[271] I mean, my text message thing, like people I have in my contacts is 621 right now.

[272] So I just, I struggle with the returning messages thing.

[273] God, I want to leap into your anxiety because that's, of course, something I want to talk about because that right there, I don't even really suffer from anxiety, but that would make me throw my phone in a garbage disposal to see that number.

[274] Yes.

[275] I would be like, oh, fuck, I got to start over.

[276] New number, new phone.

[277] I'm going to do it right this time.

[278] You know, so much of it, I think, it's obviously it's accumulated over the years.

[279] Honestly, what it is, it's all the messages.

[280] I'm like, I have to remember to get.

[281] back to it.

[282] So I don't open them.

[283] So I know that they're unread.

[284] And then they just go away and they don't see the light of day.

[285] And I think there are a lot of people who think I'm angry with them or that I don't care about them.

[286] And that's just not the case.

[287] Or even with like best friends, you know, they send me these long messages.

[288] And I think, all right, I have to respond with equal vigor.

[289] And then I can go a long time and feel guilty.

[290] Like, oh, no, now they think I don't care.

[291] And then I just, don't do it.

[292] I mean, as you can see it, it snowballs.

[293] Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[294] And the pandemic, I had like 800 -something and I took two days.

[295] I was just going through all of it.

[296] And there was like, unresolved love proclamation.

[297] So I was like, oh, God.

[298] You know, I did it.

[299] And it felt really good to be at zero.

[300] Oh, so you accomplished that during quarantine?

[301] You got through them all?

[302] Wait, I'm sorry.

[303] We have to on text, not email.

[304] I am shocked.

[305] I'm shook.

[306] I'm shook.

[307] Oh, my God, you just shook us.

[308] You shook the fuck out of us.

[309] Email, I can understand.

[310] Monica at times has had, like, I want to, like, 1600.

[311] Oh, yeah, I'm 16 ,628 right now emails.

[312] Unread.

[313] I'm assuming 90 % of that is like.

[314] Bullshit.

[315] Yeah.

[316] It's like New York Times morning update or whatever.

[317] But it's old.

[318] One time I had a major panic and I just went to the first page and I started just deleting page after page.

[319] And I was like, I don't know if I'm deleting something really important, but I can't care.

[320] It couldn't be that important because you've been ignoring it for two months and no one died.

[321] Except then a few times after that, I've tried to search people, like especially for this show to like reach out or something and I'll search a person and it's not there.

[322] Right, because you dumped everything.

[323] You clear cut your.

[324] My life.

[325] My business.

[326] Did you like that update on us?

[327] Yeah.

[328] I appreciated it.

[329] Thank you.

[330] I just looked at your face and I was like, has she tuned?

[331] down.

[332] I think maybe you heard 16 ,000 and you're like, I can't even let myself think about this, so I'm going to go so much safe.

[333] I immediately had a panic attack, but I've resolved it.

[334] I have coping mechanisms now, so.

[335] Okay, so a couple things.

[336] One, that, that's out of the way, that I reference you all the time, two, the name thing, great, both from books.

[337] You must have read your book of origin.

[338] I have, I grew up watching my movie of origin, and then when I was older, I finally read the book.

[339] And I love it.

[340] I love the character and I always felt sort of a kinship with her.

[341] I'm assuming your dad was hot for Zazir.

[342] And so what characteristics does the character in the book have that he latched onto of like, that's what I would want my child to be?

[343] The book is about a 10 -year -old girl who goes to Paris for the weekend.

[344] Her mom is visiting a boyfriend and her mom drops her off at her uncle's place.

[345] And her uncle is a married straight man, but is a drag queen as a profession.

[346] Okay.

[347] She has this, like, surreal two days of sort of Paris in the 50s.

[348] And it's a love story to Paris.

[349] It's a love story to the French language.

[350] And it's about vernacular speech and all these wild, dreamlike things happen.

[351] And she's this cheeky keeping up with the adults, but not really little girl.

[352] It's just this very lovely tale.

[353] It's an adult story, but I don't know.

[354] I think as a girl, I was always like, that's me and I'm cool.

[355] Yeah.

[356] And by the way, then you went and lived in Paris for a year.

[357] Like, you kind of ended up living out the book.

[358] It's just so interesting what seeds you can plant, isn't it?

[359] Like, the power of it.

[360] I think having that book as my namesake was a big reason why I decided to also study abroad.

[361] I always felt it was like, I have to watch this movie and read this book in its original language.

[362] And I did copy like some of the things she did in the movie of like, it's my destiny to like do her journey and follow her path and like find the spots where in the film she inhabited.

[363] And so I do feel like it was like a fulfillment of a destiny in a way.

[364] Yeah.

[365] It's like a self -fulfilling prophecy.

[366] I think everyone probably deserves a title character when they're born.

[367] First of all, I was on the verge of trying to impress you with how many books I've read that are set in the 50s in Paris with all the expats.

[368] I'm wondering if you've read any of those books like Henry and June or the Anayas Ninth stuff.

[369] Yes, yes.

[370] I have Anaisnan, Her Little Birds book, which is erotic.

[371] Yeah, yeah.

[372] It's a super sexy time, this Miller stuff.

[373] Yes, Henry Miller.

[374] And, I mean, I love Hemingway, obviously.

[375] And there's this great book, George Orwell wrote.

[376] It's called Down and Out in Paris.

[377] I feel like you would like this, Dax, because it's about him in his, when he's just fucking broke and it's like in the 1920s, 30s, and he's in Paris and London and talking about the disgusting like food industry and what he's doing and just before he's made it essentially.

[378] And it's this really kind of riveting story and very nostalgic.

[379] If you have that kind of nostalgia for old Europe and this time period, it's this interesting account of his life.

[380] But yeah, I do love that genre.

[381] Well, what I dig about it, I think from an early age, I imagine this is common.

[382] I was like, huh, I think I think different.

[383] Like, I think there maybe is another place for me that I would feel more in concert with the rest of the people.

[384] The expat thing is fascinating to me because it was like a lot of Americans who didn't like the puritanical kind of sexually repressed.

[385] And they would go there and they would kind of try to just insert themselves into a mindset they thought they had with varying success, right?

[386] Like, it unraveled for a lot of people.

[387] Marriages were fucked up.

[388] People became junkies.

[389] All kinds of things.

[390] But in that vein, I have this great obsession with Germany.

[391] Really?

[392] Yes.

[393] Just mainly their obsession with poop.

[394] That is part of it.

[395] That is part of it.

[396] I love the obsession with poop.

[397] They're just very open about it.

[398] And we like that.

[399] There's way more words for it.

[400] We just learned this.

[401] We had an episode of another show we produced where the guy did a whole history of the American toilet, which is way more fascinating than you would imagine.

[402] But the outlier is the German toilet, which has a shelf so that when you poop, you're encouraged to examine it, which is smart for your health.

[403] It makes sense.

[404] I didn't realize that's what that shelf was there for.

[405] That makes a lot of sense.

[406] A lot of German toilets certainly have it.

[407] I thought it was like a water conservation thing.

[408] Although no, they don't give a fuck about water.

[409] They want you to check in and just make sure everything's like on the up and up.

[410] It is smart.

[411] There's a lot of paradoxes among Germans that I've observed.

[412] And maybe you'll correct me if I'm wrong.

[413] But I have great interest in the duality of humans.

[414] And I actually have heard you say that.

[415] So hopefully you'll be on board with me. So Germany is this place where it is the most organized, maybe Japan's more, but you're looking at a 400 -year -old building.

[416] And they've kept it in better shape than a building built in America two years ago.

[417] Yeah.

[418] And then you see people just sweeping in front of their place all the time.

[419] Everything runs on time.

[420] Order, order, order, order.

[421] And then you go to the park.

[422] And And everyone gets bare naked.

[423] Yeah.

[424] And I'm like, this is so inconsistent with what I think of.

[425] So right out of the gates, like, does that interest you about Germany?

[426] Absolutely.

[427] I mean, in general, I think just addressing nudity.

[428] I feel like it's classically, like people say, it's a European thing.

[429] I do think very much in Germany, specifically in East Germany, which is where my family is from.

[430] There was a huge nudity culture.

[431] And I feel like I grew up with that.

[432] And I felt as a child, I was a lot more comfortable with nudity than a lot of my peers here in the U .S. This is too much for Dax.

[433] Really?

[434] No, no, no. I'm doing a good job.

[435] I'm doing a good job.

[436] Well, I think the U .S. is very puritanical.

[437] And I think even, you know, in commercials and in very commercial magazines, people are naked.

[438] And I think the United States often has a very rigid way of.

[439] viewing how to live your daily life.

[440] I do think Europeans generally are a lot more relaxed.

[441] I do really agree with you.

[442] I think it's also just the counter to this very rigid culture.

[443] School costs nothing.

[444] And so people are in school for like 10 years and they're having kids and they're still doing kind of like entry level jobs and just hang at the park and are day drinking, night drinking.

[445] And the kids are drinking.

[446] Everybody is drinking.

[447] It's a more.

[448] natural flow, I do believe, even though there is this stereotype of a very rigid form of living in Germany.

[449] Yeah, so you were born in Berlin in 1991, and just to remind people, the wall fell in 89.

[450] And prior to that, you had all these Germans that were living under communist rule.

[451] Even Putin was in your city as a KGB agent right up until 89.

[452] There's a really even more unique aspect to where you were at, because as I recall, because I was there by God in 91.

[453] Oh, really?

[454] At her birth?

[455] You attended my birth?

[456] My sweet, sweet mother, who knew I had this fascination with Germany, mostly because of the Autobot, to be honest, I'm super into cars, and the notion that you could go as fast as you wanted is great.

[457] And I was taking German in high school.

[458] So my mother took me to Germany when I was 16 or 17, so 91 or 92, so that I could drive on the Autobot, and we went to all these places.

[459] And it was all over the news at the time because they had to absorb your currency.

[460] That was a huge ordeal, right?

[461] But the folks in Berlin, there was like a many -year -long elation, right?

[462] Like, it's a unique time for you to have been born there.

[463] It's interesting because there was elation, but also my grandparents are communists.

[464] So my grandmother and grandfather, they were born in the 30s and grew up in the middle of nowhere.

[465] my grandfather in a village of a hundred people, a farmer kid, poor, seven kids running around no shoes.

[466] And my grandmother was sort of a similar story.

[467] And after the war, when the Soviet Union took over, a lot of the intellectuals fled the country.

[468] And they needed people.

[469] So they got a free education, essentially, and were afforded completely different lives because of this regime.

[470] It's very fascinating to sort of hear the global point of view of what it was and the point of view from people who really kind of fed into it and their experiences and also Germany was probably one of the best countries to be in during this time.

[471] Yeah, for sure.

[472] Berlin was probably one of the best cities to be in.

[473] In terms of shortages or not having access to things, you talk about like, there was no homelessness.

[474] There was no poverty.

[475] You might have not had everything you wanted, but at least in their bubble, right?

[476] And in their sort of situation, nobody was actively struggling.

[477] And then once the wall fell, it completely dissolved the Eastern business side of things.

[478] And a lot of people, including my grandparents, had to retire early because all these places were just completely liquidated.

[479] The East German currency was worth seven times less than the West German currency.

[480] and a lot of people didn't make their money back.

[481] They weren't all fully compensated.

[482] People lost a lot.

[483] And it was a really tough transition.

[484] And it was almost as if the West completely just wiped out this whole culture.

[485] And so, you know, if you talk to my dad, he'll have a different point of view as a younger person.

[486] But if you talk to my grandparents, they are kind of still like, oh, the good old days.

[487] I always find that such an interesting conversation.

[488] I think what that really highlights, the imperative.

[489] to walk away with is more like how strong relativity is.

[490] So everything's relative to something else, right?

[491] So for your grandparents, relative to the previous version of their lives, it was an improvement.

[492] Yeah.

[493] And then for your father, I'm assuming he was ecstatic when the wall fell.

[494] I mean, he went right to New York immediately.

[495] Yeah.

[496] So relative to where he grew up, this life he got himself, he prefers.

[497] So it's dangerous to suggest there's a right way, wrong way, or a baseline, anything, because it's all just relative to whatever came before.

[498] It's relative.

[499] And it's also propaganda plays a huge role, even in our country, the very kind of binary divided nature.

[500] Whether we really want to or not, you inevitably get silo just based off of the algorithm of your internet experience.

[501] And I think my eyes have been opened a lot in terms of, you know, my partner grew up in a conservative part of America.

[502] And to break bread with his family, I think, is always a really interesting experience.

[503] And it has significantly broadened my mind.

[504] mind from somebody who grew up in New York.

[505] I didn't grow up rich or anything, but it still is sort of this very specific point of view of the world.

[506] And I'm really grateful for having additional exposure to points of views and ways of thinking.

[507] And it just complicates everything.

[508] Everything is just so complicated.

[509] Oh, yeah, that's the appeal of binary.

[510] It's like, it's so overwhelming.

[511] We're designed to live with 100 other people in a very small area.

[512] We can wrap our head around that.

[513] I completely agree.

[514] like, I don't think we're meant to be living in billion people, herds of countries, right?

[515] People are like, oh, Sweden's amazing.

[516] I'm like, one fucking person lives there.

[517] They make one fucking decision for themselves, and they agree with themselves.

[518] Yeah.

[519] And they all look the same.

[520] They all look the same.

[521] And this country is huge.

[522] And then comparing that to, like, how China works or how India works.

[523] I'm like, there are so many people the way systems are going to function.

[524] It's going to be different.

[525] We are meant to be, as you said, in community.

[526] days of like 200 and then that's it.

[527] Well, yeah, just even think of self -esteem.

[528] I could have been the best at something in a group of 100 people, but the notion that the people you're comparing yourself or who you're relative to literally spans the globe.

[529] If you're on Facebook or something, it's 2 billion people.

[530] You're not going to know where you fit and we're status creatures.

[531] We are a social primate so we must know where we're at so we know if we're going to eat or not or reproduce.

[532] Like it will never not be status machines.

[533] Where do find yourself in this group of a billion people or in a city of 16 million, I think that's such a huge source of our anxiety is just like, where am I in all this?

[534] Yeah.

[535] And just the influx of information.

[536] Like, it's just too much.

[537] I think a lot of people have this inherent feeling of like, everything is more dangerous.

[538] Everything is more terrible.

[539] When really on a global scale, like poverty is down, hunger is down, crime is down, everything is down.

[540] Everything is down.

[541] comparison to decades ago, but we don't feel it because we are constantly consuming it.

[542] No, it's true.

[543] If you live to be 200 years old, you would have probably heard about one parent killing their child in that 200 years.

[544] Yeah.

[545] But I can learn about 600 parents today.

[546] So it paints a view of the world, which is a little bit misleading.

[547] Are you into Stephen Pinker at all?

[548] I know the name, but I don't really know.

[549] Okay, he's like an intellectual.

[550] Maybe he's Harvard or NYU.

[551] I don't know.

[552] He's incredible, but the point is, is he has a book Promises of the Enlightenment or something about the Enlightenment Now is what it's called.

[553] Thank you.

[554] Enlightenment now.

[555] And yes, to your point, if you chart every metric we would use to evaluate human suffering, it's just plummeted.

[556] Like, this is the best it's ever been.

[557] Yeah.

[558] And you need to keep that in the back your mind.

[559] Yeah, you really do, because it's so easy to fall into despair.

[560] It's an exercise to remember, like, it is better.

[561] I think without that you lose optimism and hope, you become, apathetic.

[562] So there's a mechanism that needs to exist for us to grow and be better.

[563] And part of that is hope and belief that what we choose to do does make things better.

[564] Just to have both sides represented, there is a positive in that we do have access to all this information.

[565] So people can't really do anything under the radar.

[566] Nothing can really slip through.

[567] Like people are really calling out powerful figures in a way that didn't happen before just because we know more.

[568] That's true.

[569] It is all complicated.

[570] And it would be so easy to say this is bad in this.

[571] this is good.

[572] That's right and that's wrong.

[573] It's too blurry.

[574] It's too blurry.

[575] Okay.

[576] So, Germany obsession.

[577] I find that so interesting because I feel like if I could like pick my country of origin, I don't think I would pick a German.

[578] That's exactly where I'm going.

[579] Well, another thing, too, as an anthropology major, I'm fascinated with Neanderthals.

[580] Neanderthals were a really, really interesting homo sapien, or they weren't sapien, but they're so similar.

[581] They were smarter than us.

[582] Like, we have a brain capacity of 1 ,500 Cs.

[583] There's was like 1650.

[584] I'm obsessed with the fact that they were absorbed by us.

[585] That's really interesting because you have to imagine the kind of interspecies breeding that happened.

[586] And what did these folks have that would bring in the Homo sapiens?

[587] And they were stouter.

[588] Like, we would have probably not been terribly attracted to them.

[589] That's interesting.

[590] And then they were absorbed largely in Germany.

[591] I mean, most Neanderthals lived in eastern France and Germany.

[592] On genetic tests, if you do 23 in me, they have a really inordinately high rate of Neanderthal genes.

[593] How is that not interesting to everybody?

[594] That fascinates me. I didn't really realize that, which does make sense.

[595] There's this famous, I think he's in Neanderthal in, gosh, it's I think an Austrian.

[596] They call him Utti because he was found in the Uttes Valley.

[597] And he's kind of like become a little bit of a joke.

[598] I think it's like the name's kind of funny.

[599] Sure, sure.

[600] Recently I was listening to something about Neanderthals and kind of the complete upending of what we thought about them that they were like these dumb hulking figures, but that also initially, I think, one of the first skeletons they found of Neanderthals was actually somebody who was severely disfigured.

[601] And so we had a completely different...

[602] Warped.

[603] Yeah, warped view of what they actually looked like and that their intelligence levels were actually very comparable and they could speak.

[604] And it just probably sounded a little bit different.

[605] Yeah, we like to say, oh, they didn't have a voice box in the right spot so they couldn't communicate it, which is complete horseshit.

[606] If you've ever watched someone, operate ASL in front of you and do just fine.

[607] Like, we have one version of what communicating is.

[608] Even the idea of, like, they could have beat us, but we lucked out.

[609] And you're like, oh, the hubris, I think of humankind, we think we're the best.

[610] And we think we're going to outlast everything.

[611] I feel like we even think we're going to outlast the earth.

[612] Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah.

[613] We'll transcend this place.

[614] I was listening to this podcast recently where they were talking about extinction and how extinction actually happens really cable.

[615] It has less to do with they just ran out of food, but more everything just goes away at some point.

[616] And we are also going to go away at some point.

[617] And we think we're going to solve that problem, but we're not.

[618] Stay tuned for more armchair expert, if you dare.

[619] We've all been there.

[620] Turning to the internet to self -diagnose our inexplicable pains, debilitating body aches, sudden fevers, and strange rashes.

[621] Though our minds tend to spiral to worst -case.

[622] scenarios, it's usually nothing, but for an unlucky few, these unsuspecting symptoms can start the clock ticking on a terrifying medical mystery.

[623] Like the unexplainable death of a retired firefighter, whose body was found at home by his son, except it looked like he had been cremated, or the time when an entire town started jumping from buildings and seeing tigers on their ceilings.

[624] Hey listeners, it's Mr. Ballin here, and I'm here to tell you about my podcast.

[625] It's called Mr. Ballin's Medical Mysteries.

[626] Each terrifying true story will be sure to keep you up at night.

[627] Follow Mr. Ballin's Medical Mysteries wherever you get your podcasts.

[628] Prime members can listen early and ad free on Amazon Music.

[629] What's up guys?

[630] It's your girl Kiki, and my podcast is back with a new season and let me tell you it's too good.

[631] And I'm diving into the brains of entertainment's best and brightest, okay?

[632] Every episode, I bring on a friend and have a real conversation.

[633] And I don't mean just friends.

[634] I mean the likes of Amy Poehler, Kel Mitchell, Vivica Fox, the list goes on.

[635] So follow, watch, and listen to Baby.

[636] This is Kiki Palmer on the Wondery app or wherever you get your podcast.

[637] You need to spend some time in Germany.

[638] Well, listen, so now I'm going to hit you at the moment I had where I was like, I don't want to say I was disillusioned.

[639] Okay, my wife was doing Preston Hamburg.

[640] I went.

[641] Oh, side note, we had a layover in Frankfurt.

[642] I rented a Porsche.

[643] We went to the Nureberg ring.

[644] And I'm like, this is why Germany rules.

[645] It's a fucking racetrack open to the public.

[646] You buy a ticket.

[647] There's guys in school buses.

[648] there's dudes in race cars like only in Germany anyways and few accidents right no that's so surprising so get to Hamburg in the first four or five days I'm like ah this place man it's like a Swiss watch like everything works I'm getting kind of enamored with it I don't know this but I'm kind of getting bored and I'm getting I'm dead but I don't know this until the publicity tour then takes us immediately to Paris so we leave Hamburg or I'm like enamored we go to Paris And immediately I'm like, oh, fucking graffiti is everywhere, blah, blah, blah.

[649] Look at a dump this place.

[650] And then I just also found that I was coming alive and I was feeling like sexy and I want to eat at that restaurant.

[651] We got to go here and then it's colorful and vibrant.

[652] And I was like, oh, right, everything has its kind of pros and cons.

[653] And now I find myself in Paris where, you know, there's a lot of dudes ripping people off on the street and this is happening.

[654] But by God, do I feel romantic in eroticism and joy?

[655] So I say that to say, I think there's a really, like, literal Hamburg de Paris story in your life, which is like, when you go from Germany and Berlin to Washington Heights, you're now immersed in kind of black culture, Dominican culture.

[656] Wait, what age?

[657] I was one, but I went back and forth a lot.

[658] I went to preschool in Germany, and I would spend basically every holiday.

[659] a day there.

[660] I'm very grateful that I was able to grow up in a place where I had people that looked like me. I think that was important for my mom.

[661] She's black.

[662] She grew up in New York.

[663] I hate to be disrespectful to your mom and not show a bunch of interests in her history.

[664] It's just that we know New York.

[665] I just want to be clear about that.

[666] I agree.

[667] Germany is the exotic thing in this conversation weirdly.

[668] I do identify as a German woman because of what I look like and because I grew up largely in the U .S. I do feel a bit other when I'm there, which also makes sense it's a very homogenous country and it's changed a lot in the last 15 years it's a lot more diverse and a lot more international than i think it used to be yeah when i was there 91 it was a white white white white yeah that's what you imagine i go to this place where like my friend joy bryant who went to this boarding school and just the back and forth the code switching the i'm not fully embraced here i'm also now the smart kid who's leaving the bronx you must have had a bit of that right i'm sure everybody as competing identity stories, definitely coming from mixed heritage, elements of that are just sort of written into the story, I guess.

[669] So yeah, I mean, I definitely growing up felt very not enough of either and not really knowing exactly where I fit in or if what I was was enough.

[670] I imagine that I've grown out of that and I'm like, I'm enough.

[671] Being zussie is enough.

[672] But, I certainly still deal with feeling like which culture is really me. And I have to say, I feel very connected to other people of mixed heritage, sort of no matter what the blend is.

[673] Other straddlers?

[674] Yeah, there's that overlap.

[675] Like, I have a friend, she's half Chinese and half white, and we, like, talk about the same stuff all the time and are very similar feelings around things.

[676] And I think in the future, there's a lot more multicultural families happening.

[677] so I think that's going to be another sort of identity that's really big.

[678] When I was growing up, it still felt a little bit more fringy.

[679] I remember, I think I was like 12.

[680] I was doing some like women's empowerment thing, and it was mostly black and brown women.

[681] And this dance came on and everybody knew the dance.

[682] And I didn't know the dance.

[683] And I was like, oh, my God.

[684] I went home that night.

[685] And for months afterwards, I was like every night after school, I'd watch BET because I was like, I need to be here.

[686] push out.

[687] I just think back and I'm like, oh, you poor girl.

[688] I think everybody sort of has versions of that kind of story, desperately trying to figure out where to put themselves.

[689] But really, I'm black enough because I'm black and I'm German enough because I'm German.

[690] Yeah, you're you.

[691] No matter what format that takes.

[692] I mean, I spent my whole life trying to not be Indian.

[693] So I was like, okay, I did a good job of that.

[694] And then, like a few months ago, Mindy and Mina Harris.

[695] And some people had, like, they posted on Instagram pictures of them at, like, a Diwali party.

[696] And I was like, I wasn't invited to that.

[697] And then I was like, if I had been invited to that, what would I have, like, I would have felt like, I can't go to that.

[698] And it's like, oh, man, there's just nowhere to be.

[699] Like, you can feel so stuck in between in those moments.

[700] You ultimately carve out some identity that's just yours.

[701] It's weird, because I'm trapped in this myself, which is like, I still operate as if I'm somehow a kid and I don't have any agency.

[702] Like, I'm my own thing now.

[703] I have the freedom to be my own thing.

[704] I still am locked in that.

[705] What I would say is, like, you could shake your identity being either I want to be more black or more German or whatever that is.

[706] You could come to some peace with that.

[707] But the thing that you have, you'll have forever, which is awesome, is you probably study people like a motherfucker.

[708] Like, and you probably pick up your environment really quickly.

[709] And you probably assess people really quickly.

[710] And, of course, it's so useful in acting.

[711] Yeah.

[712] Yeah, it does tie into why I enjoy acting or why I was drawn to it.

[713] I think it comes from having empathy, I think.

[714] I don't want to be like, oh, I have a lot of empathy.

[715] But I just feel like, I'm somebody who's really not quick to anger.

[716] And I think it's because every situation is context.

[717] And I'm like, well, there's a reason that this is happening.

[718] So let's figure that out.

[719] Even sort of like if I think about when I was a child in Germany, and as we were talking about, it's a very homogenous country.

[720] And so people weren't really exposed to people of color and people would obviously have certain reactions to me and say things that in hindsight you could deem as inappropriate.

[721] But I feel like I never internalized it in that way because I was like, well, they just don't really know what they're talking about.

[722] And I kind of was always like, well, it doesn't really have anything to do with me. And then even here in the U .S., I just feel like I like exploring why people are the way they are.

[723] And it doesn't make somebody a bad person, even if there's bad.

[724] behavior.

[725] I don't know that that really makes sense.

[726] I can tell you're afraid that what the subtext of what you just said is that only intentions are important.

[727] But that's not what you're saying.

[728] And life is way too complicated.

[729] And guess what?

[730] Intentions are fucking important.

[731] Do you steal the bag because it looked like your bag or did you steal the bag?

[732] The product is the same.

[733] You walk away with someone else's bag.

[734] It's relevant.

[735] Yeah.

[736] In acting, I really like to explore characters that are carrying multiple things and are carrying what we would potentially diagnose as good and bad.

[737] The Lost Daughter, I think, is a beautiful example.

[738] That film is about motherhood and, you know, sort of exploring the idea of what it is to be a good mother or a bad mother.

[739] And Olivia Coleman's incredible in it.

[740] Maggie Gillenhold did such a good job.

[741] That exploration even of like, oh, she made certain decisions as a parent, and a lot of people would be like, Yeah, that was potentially a fucked up decision.

[742] But does that make her bad?

[743] Or does that make her a bad mother?

[744] Is she just simply a human who was having an experience?

[745] I find that fascinating.

[746] And I think because, you know, as we all are dealing with sort of our own guilt and feelings of shame, acting gives permission to explore that more freely and more openly in a way.

[747] Viola Davis has a new book.

[748] And she did like a conversation with Oprah.

[749] and it's really good.

[750] And she's had a crazy childhood.

[751] In therapy, she came to realize that true evolution is when you realize everyone is doing the best they can.

[752] Yeah.

[753] That's really true.

[754] When you really recognize everyone is doing what they can do, given the circumstances they're under, it does prevent being reactionary because you have to just have some understanding.

[755] Like, maybe if you were in that position, you'd have the exact same thoughts.

[756] Like, it's easy to not judge when you do that.

[757] I think that's hard to rationalize when people who are doing their best are still harming others.

[758] Yeah, exactly.

[759] And doing things that are obviously have negative ripple effects.

[760] It's not an excuse.

[761] Yeah, exactly.

[762] It's an explanation.

[763] Yeah, and you're allowed to have compassion and have consequences, I think.

[764] On my best day, I have this thing I try to remind myself of.

[765] I'll be around someone who's just horrendous.

[766] And I remind myself, oh, wow, we all want the same thing.

[767] We want love and affection from as many.

[768] people as possible.

[769] And this person, sadly, believes this is their best approach to that.

[770] Something's taught them that it was, too.

[771] That's the thing.

[772] Like, there's some pattern built.

[773] Yeah, I don't look at someone and think, you know what?

[774] This guy woke up and he's like, I'm going to try to make as many people hate me as possible.

[775] I don't think anyone does that.

[776] Yeah, that doesn't mean condoning.

[777] I still make fun of them.

[778] But there's a little boy that felt awkward in a classroom that made all these weird choices.

[779] Yeah.

[780] I don't know if you feel this way, but like on set, if you're like working also with somebody who's difficult or having an experience that they're taking out on other people.

[781] And it's as frustrating as that can be.

[782] I feel like I'm always like, wow, this is really coming from insecurity.

[783] And I understand insecurity in a certain way.

[784] And it makes me feel bad for people to think, oh, you really think that this behavior is what's going to assert your power or is what's going to have people respect you because you potentially feel like, you know, maybe don't respect yourself enough or whatever it is.

[785] That doesn't mean people being shitty on set isn't just shitty.

[786] I agree with you.

[787] I was working with this really legendary older actor and he had a couple of humongous explosions.

[788] Like I had never, ever seen on a set.

[789] I, of course, loved it because I'm from a chaotic background.

[790] So I was like, ooh, something crazy is happening.

[791] Yeah.

[792] And your experience with chaos because I do see that with people who I know who like grew up in potentially more combative situations and who are very comfortable with fighting or engaging or even sort of the idea of like anger is this very freeing emotion.

[793] I was just talking about this yesterday with David about how like you can feel anger.

[794] I don't know.

[795] It puts away like despair.

[796] It just gets rid of it all and it's such a like intoxicating feeling.

[797] Yeah.

[798] Especially if you're code about It's like this rare opportunity and I can feel the switch flick in my head and it's euphoric.

[799] I go, oh, I don't give a fuck how this is seen.

[800] Like there's something very liberating when I've been so conscious and self aware of like what I'm doing.

[801] What impact does it have?

[802] You're going to like me more or less because of this.

[803] To actually go like, you're going to hate me after this and I don't give a fuck is weirdly intoxicating.

[804] Yeah.

[805] My parents divorced when I was very young.

[806] My dad, as far as I know, didn't date again.

[807] My mom, she got remarried and I have a little brother now.

[808] But my mom is a very, very non -confrontational person.

[809] She's a cancer, if that means anything.

[810] So she's like, shell.

[811] And actually, her moon is in cancer as well.

[812] So she's like a shell under a shell.

[813] Oh, my God.

[814] Double shell.

[815] Shell squared.

[816] My parents had joint custody.

[817] So when I was with my dad, it would be like, me, my dad against the world.

[818] And when I was with my mom, it was like, me and my mom against the world.

[819] And I was an only child until I was 15.

[820] I didn't have fighting around me. My parents did a great job with their divorce and, like, really did not involve me. And to this day, anger and, like, arguments freak me the fuck out.

[821] I can't argue with people.

[822] Sometimes I'm like, wow, is this not allowing me, like, a depth in relationships?

[823] Because I'm afraid to go there, you know?

[824] I think that's no. Unless, here's one thing I could say, because I had that deeply, too, a single mom, three kids, no money.

[825] It's us against the world.

[826] It was us against the world the whole time.

[827] And where it's dangerous, I think, is that if you think you're, betraying your commitment to someone you love by having your own point of view and your own issue.

[828] Like if you proceed of like, no, my role in this is a teammate.

[829] So you and I can't ever have a thing because we got to be united against that.

[830] It's certainly a fear of losing people.

[831] I think there's a difference between having like a full -odd blowout, beating each other up kind of fight versus me being like, hey, you know, that made me a little uncomfortable when you said that.

[832] I don't even do that that well.

[833] That's more about respecting even the other person to be like, Oh, okay, I hear that.

[834] Like, I can change my behavior for you.

[835] Let me go one step further.

[836] If you got a lot of validation from your mom and dad, as I did, which is like, I'm so grateful for how easy you make this tough situation, not their fault, but what I interpreted was the reason you love me is I'm not one of the many pains in your asses.

[837] Yeah.

[838] Yeah.

[839] And if I was a pain in your ass, I want to be worthy of your love.

[840] So that could be relevant.

[841] Yeah.

[842] Okay.

[843] I have so many thoughts.

[844] Fire away.

[845] Also, just because I've been talking so much in therapy about this very specific thing for a while.

[846] And conflict is great and necessary.

[847] And I think it's good to, like, talk it out, definitely learn how to address those things in a pom -positive way.

[848] And I've been guilty of this.

[849] To think that big blow -up fights or big confrontations are a sign of connection or interest.

[850] Intimacy or passion is problematic.

[851] Yeah, I don't agree with confrontation that is loud and yelling.

[852] The problem is it is passionate.

[853] It's like a sister to intimacy.

[854] You can leave it and feel on the same high.

[855] And then you can get in a bad cycle of repeating that, repeating that, and repeating that.

[856] So I just think it's good to define fights and conflict as what they are.

[857] When it escalates to where everyone's hurting each other, it's a problem.

[858] I agree.

[859] You could easily kind of be like, well, I can say this too because we're so close.

[860] Exactly.

[861] But it doesn't matter.

[862] When it can still be hurtful, it's about learning how to have effective conflict that is mutually respectful and also conducive toward a solution versus screaming your feelings out.

[863] Yeah.

[864] Yeah, I want to be clear.

[865] I've never referred to my wife as a bitch.

[866] I've never called earning names.

[867] But I have gotten to the point where it's like a boundary thing where I'm like, I won't be along for this ride.

[868] Like it can get to that point for me. And I aspire to always like before even bring it up, recognize what fear has been triggered.

[869] That's already being able to identify, oh, this triggered that fear versus just reacting, which I don't know if that's something you feel like you had to learn.

[870] That took me a decade in AA, to be honest with you.

[871] Like there's a step in there which you're required to figure out.

[872] Most people have like three or four main fears that are driving every problem in their life.

[873] At least all the dudes I've seen go through AA.

[874] I have a shorthand.

[875] I'm like, well, it's probably one of these four things.

[876] Is it like my fear of financial insecurity?

[877] Is it my status?

[878] Is it that I'm dumb?

[879] Am I being emasculated in some way?

[880] Because I was amasculated as a child.

[881] I don't have to look too far.

[882] It's generally one of those four things that has me tight in the chest.

[883] But they must be addressed.

[884] I can't live in that state of that fear.

[885] Yeah.

[886] Do you feel like the fears exist for you in the same way that they maybe did 15 years ago, but your ability to cope has shifted?

[887] Or do you feel like your approach to them has changed?

[888] And you're like, oh, I don't carry this fear in this exact same way as I used to.

[889] Both things.

[890] I think, A, my fears have diminished.

[891] And then also my practice in addressing them has helped, which is when they're unnamed, they're ambiguous, they're in some She can't even ramp your head around them.

[892] Like, if you can't right now list your fears, you're in trouble because you'll just feel emotion and you won't know why you feel emotion and it'll feel not approachable.

[893] And so I think one thing is, yeah, I know how to work through them a little better just out of practice.

[894] And then two, I have to recognize that I've come out on the other side of it so many times that I can now more write off like, oh, that's that stupid fucking thing and you're not nine anymore.

[895] Yeah.

[896] I can get there a lot quicker.

[897] Yeah.

[898] Yeah, but I think also it's really important to remember kind of circling back to what we were talking about earlier.

[899] You can't fix or control where you came from, the trauma, the circumstances, all of that stuff.

[900] Like, it's part of the soup.

[901] It's part of the recipe.

[902] There's no changing it.

[903] It's done.

[904] So there are very predictable outcomes for the way you grew up, for the way I grew up.

[905] And so knowing what the trajectory will be predicting it and then being like what part of it.

[906] can I change at this point?

[907] How do I do that?

[908] I can't control this thought, but I can control this action.

[909] Little baby things like that.

[910] We had Josh Brolin on and I was thinking about this a lot after that because Dax and Josh are the same and have like very similar backgrounds and similar patterns.

[911] And I was like, yeah, if you grow up with trauma, of course you feel excited by chaos because that's what's familiar.

[912] That's the most familiar thing.

[913] It's literally, in a bizarre way, it's what's safe.

[914] It's not what's safe, but it's what your brain thinks is safe because it's what's familiar to you.

[915] So then it, like, requires all this thought and action to undo it, which I think you do a great job of doing and you're constantly trying to, like, not act on those thoughts.

[916] But it's also okay to know, like, I'm going to have them.

[917] That's actually so interesting.

[918] I've struggled a bunch with anxiety, and I have a very, very sort of psychosomatic, very physical response to it.

[919] It's not just feelings.

[920] I think that's sort of a classic thing of depression and anxiety.

[921] People who don't struggle with it don't realize how completely physically consuming that experience.

[922] I had been the exact same thing.

[923] Yes, very physical.

[924] I remember the first time that it really just like kind of upended my life, I was like, I have no words for what is happening.

[925] I was like going to dozens of doctors.

[926] because I was like, I clearly have a brain tumor.

[927] Like something is going on.

[928] Like this is, I got a cat scant.

[929] Because I was like, something in my body is wrong.

[930] I'm dying.

[931] And obviously they were all like, ah.

[932] Panic attacks.

[933] No, no, no. That's what you think it is.

[934] Yeah, they had to go like, I'm so sorry, Mrs. Beats.

[935] Unfortunately, it is not a tumor.

[936] It's like so sad to hear.

[937] You're like, what is it?

[938] What is it?

[939] And you're just grasping for anything.

[940] Absolutely.

[941] anything, even just an explanation is relief.

[942] I'm grateful that I was able to work through that.

[943] I kind of like pass out a lot.

[944] That's what ends up happening.

[945] I get super faint.

[946] And I also, for a time, I was like that my vision was blurry.

[947] I couldn't read tinnitus.

[948] And I wouldn't eat.

[949] I was like losing all this weight.

[950] And just felt like everything was wrong, which is usually meaning that it's an emotional reaction.

[951] Well, here's the thing.

[952] Your body is being pumped with adrenaline and your body is having a physical reaction to all the adrenaline in your body.

[953] So you are actually experiencing these things.

[954] There was a point I wanted to make and it is about familiarity.

[955] I feel like I got so accustomed to feeling constantly in this state.

[956] Now I have so much more language around it.

[957] I have so much more coping mechanisms.

[958] Even if I start feeling like similar levels of despair, I'm like, okay, I know what this is.

[959] I know it's going to end because it's ended before.

[960] And so I can just even contextualizing that, like, of knowing, oh, this isn't going to be the rest of my life, which is so terrifying if you've never kind of like gotten to the other side before.

[961] But I do find sometimes when I do feel I'm in full levity and I'm like, wow, I feel great.

[962] Like not an ounce of anything bad in sight.

[963] It makes me feel sometimes unstable because I'm like, I'm so used to that pit in my stomach thing.

[964] I know how to deal with that.

[965] But feeling safe and, oh, this is just full joy feels sometimes scary.

[966] Oh, yeah, yeah, because it's different.

[967] Because it's different, yeah.

[968] And it's interesting, like, oh, this is how people also, I'm sure, get caught up in, like, toxic relationships or something like that where you're like, it feels almost more stable to just be in this because I don't really know how to do the other thing.

[969] And at least this I understand now.

[970] I'm really trying to feeling safety in joy.

[971] Even if you know, obviously, all things change, all things are fleeting.

[972] It's always going to be up and down.

[973] But to really take in those moments and relish them versus thinking, okay, well, I guess it's just like a ticking clock until it's done.

[974] Waiting for the other shoe to drop.

[975] Yeah, exactly.

[976] That's a super common thing in sobriety, which is like most people that enter have been juggling a lot of things for decades.

[977] Like, life has been fucking a daily slog to keep your head above water and maintain this addiction.

[978] And yes, people are just like, they're entering what normal life is.

[979] It's so confusing.

[980] And you're almost like, what am I doing?

[981] Your purpose is gone.

[982] Your purpose is left you.

[983] So when I feel good and content and joyful, there's some part of me that's like, I know better.

[984] I don't deserve this.

[985] This isn't me. This is other people.

[986] Other people win the chemistry lottery.

[987] But it's not me. It's hard to like build faith in that, oh, this too could be me and this could be lasting for a long time.

[988] Again, it's another challenge to your own identity, which is like the hardest thing to do.

[989] I remember a big turning point for me. I started having anxiety when I was like, when I hit puberty is when it started happening.

[990] And I remember this sort of sudden shift.

[991] And I was like, what the fuck is going on?

[992] And, you know, thank God I had a mother who was open to receiving that.

[993] And, you know, I was writing her all these letters of like admitting every horrible thing I've done.

[994] And she was just so good at like, okay, it's okay.

[995] From that point on, it was always sort of this up and down thing.

[996] And then in my mid -20s, I kind of had a full -on version of it that I had just not experienced before.

[997] And I remember just being so confused and just fighting it and fighting it and fighting it.

[998] And I remember so clearly the moment I was like, Zasi, I think you just have to embrace it.

[999] and kind of surrender and be like, this is where you're at, and you're just going to have to be in it for a while.

[1000] The day I embraced it was the day I feel like I started healing.

[1001] And now I'm actually grateful for that experience, even though I wish that upon no one.

[1002] It's awful.

[1003] But it has given me so much empathy.

[1004] I remember after I was getting better, I called a friend who in college, She had severe depression and had to be institutionalized a couple of times.

[1005] And I called her and I apologized because I was like, girl, I didn't get it.

[1006] I'm so sorry.

[1007] She's like, yeah.

[1008] We're always like, what's wrong with it?

[1009] We just didn't have the context.

[1010] And when other people in my life are going through something like this, I feel like I can counsel so much better.

[1011] And now I'm like, yeah, this is a part of who I am.

[1012] And I can notify people now like, yeah, you know, I'm kind of going through something, but I'm doing it.

[1013] If I don't text you back for 11 months, like, I just, you need to know, like.

[1014] Yeah, yeah.

[1015] Don't take it personal.

[1016] I got my own shit going on.

[1017] The other day, I was texting with someone.

[1018] She had asked me something a while ago, and I was like, oh, I'm sorry.

[1019] I got back late.

[1020] She was like, it's okay.

[1021] I know how your brain works.

[1022] It's cool to know the community knows you, and they don't take things personally of what is outside of, I guess, your typical behavior.

[1023] Did you read either of the Yuval Harari books?

[1024] I love Sapiens.

[1025] Me too.

[1026] I don't think I ever understood Buddhism until.

[1027] I read his summation of it, and just isolating that all suffering is actually craving, right?

[1028] So it's not the thing, it's not the emotional state we're in.

[1029] We can handle that.

[1030] What is suffering is the craving for a different state.

[1031] So it's always like, once you just go like, okay, this state I'm in, I'm going to stop fighting it, it actually gets 10 times more tolerable because you're actually not experiencing that craving for a different state.

[1032] Yeah.

[1033] searching for wholeness, which includes everything and not just happiness.

[1034] I do think we kind of have a little bit of a societal leaning toward like, only be in your happiness.

[1035] As a wonderful movie Inside Out explores, every emotion has its place and has its use and is important.

[1036] And they're all temporary.

[1037] The good ones are temporary and the bad ones are temporary.

[1038] Yeah.

[1039] And to really embrace all of them as healthfully as you can.

[1040] Of course, if you're tipping too much in one scale, if it's sadness, that's worth addressing.

[1041] But giving them all sort of space to be their unique little selves is important.

[1042] Okay.

[1043] So this next question is not to try to expose you or make you self -conscious, but I think it's helpful.

[1044] So I think a lot of women will be listening thinking, like, what on earth could she be insecure about?

[1045] So I'm curious what your insecurities are if you're open to sharing them.

[1046] For me, I just get so fixated on not being good enough in terms of my work.

[1047] Often I'm like, well, people say they're fans or they like what I'm doing, but I feel like I'm the only one that can actually see the truth and people are lying to me and just appeasing me. And I feel like I got so much positive validation that I'm like, well, everybody's lying.

[1048] I'm the only one that actually.

[1049] knows the truth or is actually willing to tell myself the truth.

[1050] And so I feel like I began this thing of like, well, I'm the only one that's going to be real that came to a point where I was just really cutting myself down on a lot of things.

[1051] I think a lot of my anxiety otherwise is I obsess over guilt and shame.

[1052] I can get really intrusive thoughts.

[1053] Sometimes I feel like it's just brain chemistry, where I just obsess over, am I bad?

[1054] Yeah.

[1055] And that is really tough.

[1056] I remember in high school, there was like two, three years where I didn't allow myself to have like a single bad thought about a single person.

[1057] I couldn't gossip.

[1058] Everything had to be purged out of me. So against like my writing my mother letters and like confessing everything, everything was a confession all the time because I had to be validated that what I thought wasn't bad or that I didn't do something bad.

[1059] I remember even like a couple of years, I couldn't look at my body naked because I was like even thinking a sexual thought or anything was bad.

[1060] Just like tied up in a guilt and shame.

[1061] And to this day, if I'm having severe amounts of anxiety, it's usually tied to bad thought, bad thought.

[1062] And I can't release the thought.

[1063] And it's just like in my head and that I have to confess it to somebody like, I had this bad thought.

[1064] So I don't really know where that comes from.

[1065] I question like, do I live my full truth?

[1066] Am I fully honest?

[1067] Am I fully anything?

[1068] So insecurity is one thing, and I think that the industry, I mean, it'll just do that to you.

[1069] But I would say the bulk of my stuff is battling guilt and shame.

[1070] Stay tuned for more armchair expert, if you dare.

[1071] Okay, we're going to now transition very softly and gently and with great a plum.

[1072] A plume?

[1073] To Atlanta.

[1074] Oh!

[1075] This show is, I think I write.

[1076] clearly say and I'll stand behind as the best show on television has been for what four years now or something maybe longer it's so incredible I have to say just right out of the gates the way it opened in a gas station parking lot like in Detroit where I lived if you wanted just to see what was happening just fucking go to the mobile gas station and post up for five seconds like drama is happening every second just that dumb detail right away I was like oh my god this reminds me so much of home And clearly Donald knows that thing.

[1077] There's just an authenticity to it.

[1078] I think there's been a generic, stereotypical way that a relationship like Van and Ernie, there's like something where generally the woman's like bitching like, when are you going to be a dad, all this kind of stuff.

[1079] But the subtlety of it and how everything's thrown away and it actually, for me, shows how standard it is and that no one's feeling uniquely this or that.

[1080] There's so much said by not saying a lot of stuff in that relationship.

[1081] That's incredibly powerful.

[1082] We in the beginning, I remember, there were people who were questioning, like, does this really happen?

[1083] And Donald's like, yeah, this is like my aunt's relationship.

[1084] Yeah.

[1085] What I like about the show in general is I think a lot of the, like, things that feel a little bit absurd are real things that happened.

[1086] I think it's an episode two of season one where Donald is in the jail when he's talking with the guy who was dating the trans woman.

[1087] And apparently that actually happened.

[1088] I don't remember who was in jail, but they overheard that conversation and just like a lot of stuff that I feel like is, like, iconic imagery of the show is just real.

[1089] And the absurdity of, yes, I guess being black in America or this city, which I don't know if you've spent much time in Atlanta.

[1090] Oh, yeah.

[1091] Well, Monica's from Atlanta.

[1092] I'm from Atlanta, yeah.

[1093] Oh, okay.

[1094] Where did you grow up?

[1095] Duluth.

[1096] Okay.

[1097] It is an odd, very creative place.

[1098] and then it has this, like, interesting underbelly that's dark and kind of chaotic.

[1099] It's very specific.

[1100] There isn't another city in the country like it.

[1101] I agree.

[1102] There's a confidence to it and some lack of shame.

[1103] That to me is what's so appealing about the show is like, here's us.

[1104] No one's worried that you have a conclusion or a judgment about it.

[1105] The fact that it's also not a very linear show either, I think, speaks to that.

[1106] of like, this is just what it is, is the minutia of a day, which happens to just be kind of weird and kind of off.

[1107] I think it's sort of a unique voice to have in a show.

[1108] I feel so grateful to be a part of it because it was just like a normal audition for me. Atlanta is what really changed my life.

[1109] Donald has a really interesting way of seeing the world.

[1110] I don't know if you've met him before.

[1111] We're dying too.

[1112] We're huge fans.

[1113] I mean, huge.

[1114] Here's a great example of, to me, the kind of anthropological lens of the show is episode one of this season.

[1115] I loved it so much.

[1116] I loved it so much because it starts with a grandpa disciplining his son in school.

[1117] He smacks him three times in front of the principal.

[1118] And this unleashes the series of events.

[1119] And it's saying so much.

[1120] And then ultimately the kids were moved from his home.

[1121] And he gets sent to live with these two white women.

[1122] What a fucking lens.

[1123] I mean, he has a freedom well earned.

[1124] And the way Chappelle does or a few other people where it's just like, the quality is so good that I'm able to see his view of this and to be so fucking grateful he has the platform to do it again it's like you leave that thing and it's not like he made a statement you get to kind of decide like what you think about that which I fucking love yeah you know what I find interesting actually with this season so van is in Europe obviously and is sort of doing her own thing but like a lot of the comments that I get on Instagram or that you see on the show are like, Van, get back to your daughter.

[1125] And no one's worried about Ernie.

[1126] Yeah, exactly.

[1127] It's really interesting how nobody is like, Earn, get back to your daughter.

[1128] Right.

[1129] And I was talking about this with David.

[1130] We were like, black women expected to do everything to the point where fans are like, why isn't she with her kid?

[1131] Like, she should be with her kid.

[1132] And people are getting really mad about it.

[1133] Oh, yeah.

[1134] I'd only approve of their anger if they were equally mad at Ernie.

[1135] Yeah.

[1136] But if you're not mad at Ernie, then shut the fuck.

[1137] It's like so ingrained in our thinking there is very much still these certain expectations, which also explains the pay gap, that expectation still falls on mothers to take care of all of the family in a way that is just generally not expected of men.

[1138] There's facets to it.

[1139] So one is like this male -female perspective, right, which is like you, of course, should be with your child.

[1140] That's one aspect.

[1141] Also quite interesting is like, well, Ernie's on a mission to go make money that ultimately will get to this kid.

[1142] also talks about our kind of capitalistic mindset, which is like, it's okay to not ever be with your kid if you're going out and acquiring money that will support a kid.

[1143] Well, that's still a man thing, though.

[1144] Like, if you're a high -powered woman, you still get judged for being a, quote, bad mom or not with your kid.

[1145] You do.

[1146] And that's why I said there's the mother aspect.

[1147] But I was also just a curious, like, that we wouldn't feel bad for men who missed the whole childhood of their kids so that they could.

[1148] Like that there is a trade out there that we all accept, which is like, it'd be fine to miss your child's life if long as you supported the child.

[1149] That's a curious thing, too, on top of the male female thing.

[1150] Yeah, and we're assuming because he's doing most of the financial supporting that it's okay.

[1151] Or is at least in search of it, right?

[1152] Yeah, it's like it's really deep in us.

[1153] Or I think even the idea of Van having a moment where she's a little unstable, I think it's making people uncomfortable that she is not fully predictable.

[1154] Or isn't the one, like, holding it down and grounding elements of it?

[1155] I don't know if that goes back to, like, oh, gosh, well, if the mom isn't okay, then, like, are we good?

[1156] It's like the family, okay?

[1157] Is everything going to be okay?

[1158] That I have to say, I really loved her arc in season three, and we still have more to go with that, and the season isn't over yet.

[1159] You started off filling a role that was real to Donald and something from his life.

[1160] And now Zassi has been incorporated into it.

[1161] And there's like now a fingerprint of your point of view on it.

[1162] And when I was watching you this season, I thought, oh, this gal is starting to wonder, what's my life going to be?

[1163] What did I want out of life?

[1164] Like now the fog is settled.

[1165] I've had this kid.

[1166] It's in a rhythm probably.

[1167] And it's like I have a minute now to wonder, what was I trying to do before all this happened to me?

[1168] And so I'm excited for you when I'm watching it.

[1169] I'm like, oh, she's in route to figuring out what she wants to do.

[1170] Yeah.

[1171] It's actually, it's so interesting.

[1172] I feel very attached to her.

[1173] I feel like I have to take care of her.

[1174] I think particularly the last two seasons with her.

[1175] And I guess maybe because I was van all year of 2021.

[1176] And I got a necklace made with her name.

[1177] Oh, I like, I'm wearing it right now.

[1178] I'm like, I have to take care of her, make sure she's okay.

[1179] Like, she's a very sensitive person.

[1180] Yes.

[1181] I don't really have that relationship with any other.

[1182] character I've done.

[1183] And maybe it's because, as you said, I think more of me was written into her and just what the show is to my life and the relationships I have in that show of like all of our lives changed together at the same time.

[1184] And so there's kind of this like sacred bond with that.

[1185] And being with the van as she is going through this transformation.

[1186] For some reason, I still am like, right, girl, like you're going to be okay.

[1187] I think I know what it is.

[1188] It's like when people carry a baby picture of themselves in their wall to stay sober.

[1189] It's like you get to parents.

[1190] a version of yourself.

[1191] You wanted someone to tell you at that age, like, it's all going to be good.

[1192] It's going to be okay.

[1193] I do that.

[1194] I'll tell my baby pictures.

[1195] Yeah, yeah.

[1196] It's going to be okay.

[1197] I guess what?

[1198] For the last 30 years, you went to bed with a full stomach, and you haven't lost a limb, and it's all okay.

[1199] Yeah.

[1200] This has only happened a handful of times, but I guess, like, friends or something.

[1201] I was trying to think of other examples, but it's rare where, four cast members come together.

[1202] And of course, Donald at that moment probably had the most success because he had been on a TV show.

[1203] And I don't know where Childes Scambino was yet at that point.

[1204] But he was the high watermark.

[1205] And then three of you were pretty unknown.

[1206] And then all four of you have risen meteorically.

[1207] Like I watched the fucking bullet train trailer.

[1208] And I'm like, oh my God, he's across the table from Brad Pitt, the number one of all time.

[1209] Brian, the guy who plays paper boy.

[1210] Yeah.

[1211] And I'm like, fuck yeah.

[1212] He's a. across from Brad Pitt, holding his own.

[1213] This is awesome.

[1214] I remember when I was watching Deadpool, too, I was a fan of you from Atlanta.

[1215] And I was like, oh, my God, there she is.

[1216] She's in a fucking superhero franchise.

[1217] This is incredible.

[1218] And then, Lekees is just like the most loved actor of our generation.

[1219] Yeah.

[1220] He's so creative and free.

[1221] And I love watching all of them work.

[1222] You know, we had this sort of jumping board of the show.

[1223] But then everybody was able to.

[1224] go and kind of create their own little thing off of that.

[1225] Yeah, no one did anything typecasty out of that, which is incredible.

[1226] I remember I was talking to one of the ADs once, and she was like, oh, thank God.

[1227] Nobody's like, oh, poor Bob.

[1228] Like, you never did anything.

[1229] No, exactly.

[1230] That's what I was going to say.

[1231] Everybody's kind of done their unique little journey.

[1232] Yeah, so lucky.

[1233] And I feel like having the safety net of each other, like when you come back to Atlanta, it's a safe place to check in with like, this is bonkers, right?

[1234] Like, kind of compare the experience of it?

[1235] Yeah, I definitely think we do do that together.

[1236] Isn't this a little bit surreal?

[1237] I don't know.

[1238] I think of, like, Beyonce, like, I wonder if she's lonely.

[1239] I'm sure she is.

[1240] Yeah.

[1241] It seems like she has an honest marriage, and it seems like she is close with her family, and she has people who grew with her and who are close with her and seemingly are honest with her.

[1242] But I could see how, like, gosh, like, she is a god to people.

[1243] And everyone around.

[1244] an opportunity and open door to everybody.

[1245] So everybody's just going to fucking, like, suck, dick and kiss ass.

[1246] Yeah, yeah.

[1247] Like, how many knows is she getting anymore in her life ever?

[1248] Probably none.

[1249] She's such a cultural icon.

[1250] It must be a fascinating experience.

[1251] And isolating, yeah, yeah.

[1252] She's royalty.

[1253] Royalty is isolated.

[1254] Beyonce, if you're listening, come on and tell us all about it.

[1255] And we'll be your best friends.

[1256] Yeah, I'll treat you normal, kind of.

[1257] Tax and Monica are great.

[1258] I'll try to limit how many questions I ask about Jay -Z to you.

[1259] Well, okay, Zassi, this has been awesome.

[1260] This has really, really, really been fun.

[1261] Thank you for having me and for this really open conversation.

[1262] Listen, for people have yet to watch Atlanta, again, it's my very favorite show.

[1263] It's incredible.

[1264] It's so beautiful.

[1265] Every episode's like a different album from the 70s.

[1266] It's like vinyl.

[1267] Aren't the like titles of each episode based off a comment off the internet or something?

[1268] Oh, I don't know that.

[1269] Maybe I'm wrong.

[1270] I feel like, or maybe the description is a comment that someone's commented.

[1271] They're hilarious.

[1272] Yeah, the descriptions are often just sort of like commentary.

[1273] I think it's him predicting what the comments would be, right?

[1274] Because like the first one's like, we waited this long for this.

[1275] Yeah.

[1276] So funny.

[1277] Oh, my God.

[1278] Well, this has been a pleasure.

[1279] If you ever want to grill peanut butter and jelly, please reach out.

[1280] I'll make one.

[1281] I certainly will.

[1282] I'm doing Netflix as a joke.

[1283] tonight.

[1284] Oh, we did it last night.

[1285] We did, yeah.

[1286] What did you guys do?

[1287] We had a live show at the Wiltern.

[1288] Oh, that's so cool.

[1289] Yeah, we did this, what we just did on stage, but it was a little more comedic, as you might expect.

[1290] I didn't toss in the jokes.

[1291] No, no, we love this.

[1292] This is what the show is.

[1293] This is the sweet spot of the show.

[1294] But when you take it on the road, you know, you make a few more jokes.

[1295] So I really, really want everyone to check out Atlanta.

[1296] It's on Hulu or FX, however you're consuming your shit.

[1297] And also, I'm just so jealous of you, if you've not watched a show that you have three fat see to sit down and go through.

[1298] It's such a great show.

[1299] I'm so happy for you that that's like where you got to come out, basically.

[1300] I adore you.

[1301] All right.

[1302] Lovely meeting you guys.

[1303] All right.

[1304] Take care.

[1305] And now my favorite part of the show, the fact check with my soulmate Monica Padman.

[1306] Hi, watermelon sugar.

[1307] Could you hear that out there playing?

[1308] That's a catchy one, right?

[1309] Yeah, it is.

[1310] Out of ten, ten is full.

[1311] What's the catchiest song of all time?

[1312] Oh, which one?

[1313] Well, you're on a tear.

[1314] She has such catchy songs.

[1315] You're swift -matized.

[1316] I love her.

[1317] Yeah, I do too.

[1318] I got to say, Call me, baby, here's my number.

[1319] Yep, that's a good one.

[1320] That's a sticky one.

[1321] Anyways, I'm going to put calumet or sugar.

[1322] You're a piece of sugar.

[1323] Watermelon sugar.

[1324] Watermelon sugar.

[1325] That's a nine.

[1326] Also in the middle.

[1327] Remember that one?

[1328] Why don't you just meet me in the middle?

[1329] Yeah.

[1330] I'm losing my mind.

[1331] This is Austin first trip.

[1332] Speaking of 10s, I'm so glad we're in a fact check right now.

[1333] Okay.

[1334] So soon after my experience.

[1335] Nate Tuck turned 50 yesterday.

[1336] 50.

[1337] Yes, and he looks gorgeous.

[1338] He looks so good.

[1339] Oh, he's so handsome.

[1340] So for his 50th birthday party, his wife, Colimba bought many tickets to the 7 p .m. showing of Top Gun at the Man's Chinese Theater on Hollywood Boulevard.

[1341] Yeah.

[1342] Side note, we were with the kids, We went to a car show on Paramount.

[1343] Do you even know where that is?

[1344] I didn't.

[1345] Well, but is this the 4 p .m. 7 p .m. We have to tell us about that.

[1346] Okay, so we went to the 4 p .m. one at Gus's barbecue in Paramount, which is a city just east of Compton.

[1347] Okay.

[1348] And it was lovely.

[1349] Really lovely.

[1350] Wait, Gus's.

[1351] Not Gus's fried chicken.

[1352] I thought I was going to get that to.

[1353] Okay.

[1354] So Gus's barbecue.

[1355] And it was adorable.

[1356] It was all grampies and grandmas.

[1357] Oh, my gosh.

[1358] Yes.

[1359] And yet it wasn't the full vibe I was looking for.

[1360] I thought it was going to be a ton of low riders and stuff because it was so close to Compton.

[1361] So then I said, well, shit, let's hit Crenshaw on the way home and see if anything's going on.

[1362] Well, we stopped on Crenshaw, Monica, and it was 6X of the night before when I went.

[1363] Oh, my God.

[1364] It was hundreds and hundreds of low riders and awesome cars.

[1365] And Delta had her new bike.

[1366] We bought her a new bicycle yesterday.

[1367] So that was in the trunk of the Lincoln.

[1368] She was zipping up and down the side street on Crenshaw.

[1369] Of course, they were getting such a bang out of her.

[1370] How could they not?

[1371] And the Lincoln caused such a commotion, and it was so exciting.

[1372] Time started slipping by.

[1373] I was talking to Big H, this guy who owned a 93 Cadillac that was slammed, 13 -inch Dayton's really nice, hydraulics, everything.

[1374] Got carried away talking with him.

[1375] Look at my watch.

[1376] Holy shit.

[1377] I have 30 minutes to get to the movie.

[1378] Oh, my God.

[1379] And we're in South Central, and I still got to take the kids home.

[1380] Speed home.

[1381] Get home.

[1382] Gates broken.

[1383] Now, dealing with that, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah.

[1384] Get on the Grom, drive the Grom over there.

[1385] Just park on the sidewalk.

[1386] You know what?

[1387] Take it away.

[1388] I got to be at Nate's 50th birthday party.

[1389] I walk into the show at 6 .59 p .m. It starts at 7.

[1390] You did it.

[1391] I see what can only be Nate Tuck because there's a man in aviators in a full flight suit.

[1392] No. I'm going to send you a picture right now.

[1393] Oh, my God.

[1394] And he looks incredible.

[1395] He looks like Tom Cruise.

[1396] He told me later that people were asking him to take photographs before the movie started when he was out there waiting in line.

[1397] Of course.

[1398] I would.

[1399] Oh, my God.

[1400] Okay, look at this picture right here.

[1401] Oh, wow.

[1402] Okay, here's the thing.

[1403] I love the helmet, but also Nate has such good hair.

[1404] Okay.

[1405] Don't worry.

[1406] you're going to fucking die when you see this.

[1407] Is Nate obsessed with Top Gun?

[1408] Is that like a thing?

[1409] He's obsessed with Tom Cruise.

[1410] Okay.

[1411] I think he in his mind thinks, if there are any celebrity, he looks like it's Tom Cruise.

[1412] So he's always clocking what Tom Cruise's hairstyle is.

[1413] Because, you know, sometimes it's longer, sometimes it's shorter.

[1414] And Nate tries to kind of stay on trend with whatever Top Cruise is doing.

[1415] Yeah, I like this without the helmet.

[1416] You need the hair.

[1417] Yeah.

[1418] That's a great photo, right?

[1419] This movie, Monica, is fucking flawless.

[1420] Is it?

[1421] It is so awesome.

[1422] I'm going to see it multiple times in the theater.

[1423] I want to see it.

[1424] Man's Chinese, packed to the gills, haven't been in a movie theater like that in so long.

[1425] Fun.

[1426] I'm tying this experience with my Matrix experience.

[1427] I haven't had this good of a time in a movie theater since the Matrix.

[1428] Wow.

[1429] It delivers.

[1430] Top Cruise is at the peak of his.

[1431] powers.

[1432] Holy shit is it great.

[1433] You'll be watching it going, or at least I was, how are they getting this footage?

[1434] Because it's not a big CGI fucking cluster fuck like I hate.

[1435] It's real jets doing impossible things.

[1436] Wow.

[1437] I mean, there's some CGI.

[1438] Sure.

[1439] But it's not one of these, you know.

[1440] Run, don't walk.

[1441] Also, also, also, also.

[1442] Shout out to Miles Teller.

[1443] He's great in it.

[1444] Whoa.

[1445] You know how Nate kind of looks like Miles Teller?

[1446] Big time.

[1447] And by the way, Miles Teller looks like Top Cruise.

[1448] Like when you're, he's got the charisma and the smile when he walks in.

[1449] Is he playing his son?

[1450] He's playing Goose's son, his old partner who he killed.

[1451] Who passed.

[1452] He killed.

[1453] He killed him?

[1454] Well, he lost control of the aircraft.

[1455] You know what?

[1456] I don't know that I've actually ever seen it.

[1457] That's not acceptable.

[1458] I haven't either.

[1459] the first top gun not in its entire i mean i've seen eclipse okay i just got to wrap it up by saying if anyone is in top cruise's life get him in here because i'm just going to fillate them the whole time i mean it was it's such an incredible movie you're not gonna find a host questions too we're not you're not going to find a host that's more amped about this movie you got coming out than me that's so fun so so get in here let's fucking do some wheelies on motorcycles in the front yard for our pictures we can do it full top cruise style.

[1460] Okay.

[1461] What an experience.

[1462] I mean, I was elated afterwards.

[1463] Yeah, so remember when you said the ecstatic is close a hand, you gave it a seven?

[1464] That was silly of you.

[1465] No, I thought I went higher.

[1466] You said seven.

[1467] Really?

[1468] I think it's close from me. Ten, it's ten.

[1469] Okay.

[1470] It's obvious ten.

[1471] Okay, ten.

[1472] I'm glad you had such a wonderful time.

[1473] It was an incredible day.

[1474] So, Zazzi.

[1475] Zazi.

[1476] I realized something.

[1477] thing when I was editing, I realized why I've been craving a peanut butter and banana.

[1478] No way.

[1479] We talked about it, like, for a long time at the beginning of the episode about peanut butter because you were eating almond butter.

[1480] And then we talked about peanut butter and jellies, about grilled peanut butter and jellies.

[1481] Oh, yeah, I offered to make them one.

[1482] Peanut butter and banana.

[1483] And ding, ding, ding.

[1484] Then I ate one.

[1485] Then I got salmonellad.

[1486] That must have been rewarding for you to figure out what the inception point was.

[1487] Because it was a big mystery to you and a sim moment.

[1488] It was.

[1489] But really, there are breadcrumbs.

[1490] We need a saying for opposite of ding, ding, ding, ding.

[1491] So that was like, that would be like plunk, plunk, plunk.

[1492] A dong, dong, dong, dong.

[1493] Oh, dong, dong, dong.

[1494] It was completely easy to predict.

[1495] That's what we would say.

[1496] Like, oh, I figured out.

[1497] Go ahead.

[1498] A dongle?

[1499] A dongle.

[1500] Monica ruminate on it.

[1501] Yeah, we're going to have to think on this.

[1502] Okay.

[1503] Oh, dong, dong, dong.

[1504] that's why you wanted a peanut butter and jelly sandwich.

[1505] See?

[1506] The only thing is with dong, dong, dong.

[1507] It doesn't roll off the tongue.

[1508] It sounds great when you say it.

[1509] That's why I like dongle a little better.

[1510] No, dong, dong, dong.

[1511] It has to be a three.

[1512] Yeah, it has to be like beep, beep, beep.

[1513] Right.

[1514] That would be terrible.

[1515] Right.

[1516] But dong dong dong dong dong is a little too.

[1517] Oh, I love it.

[1518] It sounds like duck, duck goose.

[1519] But it's too sexual.

[1520] Oh, duck, duck goose.

[1521] That's why you ate the peanut butter and jelly sandwich.

[1522] Oh, I hate that.

[1523] Duck, douged goose?

[1524] Yeah.

[1525] Okay, I like that.

[1526] Let's just play with some different options.

[1527] Say dong, dong, dong, dong one more time.

[1528] Okay, dong, dong, dong.

[1529] It's hard to say.

[1530] So watch me tell this story.

[1531] So I was editing Zaziz, and we were talking about dong, dong, dong.

[1532] No, oops, duck, duck goose.

[1533] Start over, start over.

[1534] Okay, take two.

[1535] So I was editing Zazzi and duck, duck goose.

[1536] We talked about peanut butter and banana sandwiches in that episode.

[1537] That's why I had the peanut bread.

[1538] wearing jelly.

[1539] Okay, but here's I'm going to poke a hole.

[1540] Okay.

[1541] It's still a sim moment that I never eat it, I ate it, and then three seconds later it was recalled in my email.

[1542] That's still a ding, ding, ding.

[1543] I think it's a duck, duck goose.

[1544] Why?

[1545] Because the real crazy part was that you couldn't explain why you had not had one in 10 years, and on the day of the recall, you decided to have one.

[1546] The big mystery lies within having not had one for 10 years and have one that's the day of the recall to me so it's no longer a coincidence it's not a coincidence you can map out it's completely a coincidence that there was a recall on the day that I ate something I hadn't eaten in 10 years but if you ate peanut butter every single day right 365 days a year a recall comes out you wouldn't go like oh my god I can't believe the timing of this recall I had a peanut butter and jelly sandwich because you go oh I have one every day yeah great so what made it a sim moment is that you hadn't had a peanut butter and jelly for 10 years.

[1547] We're going to have to agree to disagree.

[1548] Okay, agreed to disagree.

[1549] Okay.

[1550] I guess if we want to agree to disagree, we could call that A -T -D.

[1551] Oh, the -agree to disagree, but we could make it a new phrase.

[1552] Agree to disagree.

[1553] Oh, okay.

[1554] All right, well, I'll think on the A -T -D.

[1555] Okay.

[1556] Okay.

[1557] I can't believe we don't have the ability to mark text as unread.

[1558] I know.

[1559] The all you can do is pin it.

[1560] And then your whole fucking text message page is filled up with all these pins.

[1561] I don't like that.

[1562] I limit myself to six pins.

[1563] I pin the most common, right?

[1564] You and Wabiwob have a pin.

[1565] And then the sixth slot is reserved for someone I got to get back to.

[1566] We should be able to keep it lit up.

[1567] I agree.

[1568] Yeah.

[1569] But we're basically asking to be able to put a blue dot next to it or not.

[1570] Yeah, just keep a blue dot.

[1571] Okay, I wanted to ask you, what era, because we were talking about Anayas Nin, you guys were talking about those books in the 50s, and then it made me think, What era do you think you belong in?

[1572] Well, today, obviously.

[1573] Yeah, I'm not one of these people that think I was born in the wrong decade.

[1574] Like I was super into swing dancing.

[1575] And so, yeah.

[1576] But definitely there's eras I think I would have maybe thrived in and some I would have.

[1577] Not.

[1578] I mean, we just talked about George Washington's teeth.

[1579] I ought to kill myself.

[1580] I really would.

[1581] I don't have the, I don't have the metal to live through that.

[1582] But you wouldn't have any reference though.

[1583] I don't know.

[1584] Like, if that's just the way life was, you wouldn't think like, oh, this is so upsetting because it's just normal.

[1585] But, yeah, but Monica, he has so many journal entry.

[1586] I mean, he is suffering all the time.

[1587] His fucking gums are swelled up.

[1588] There's blood.

[1589] He's got hippopotamus tusk in his mouth.

[1590] There's lead.

[1591] But you also could have done really well at that time because you're a smart, tall, white man leader.

[1592] Exactly.

[1593] So that's the part that's appealing.

[1594] Yeah.

[1595] You could have been a president.

[1596] I could have been, maybe it could have been a president.

[1597] And no one could read anyways.

[1598] Right?

[1599] So like my dyslexia wouldn't have slowed me down.

[1600] Yeah, no. Although it is a miracle how those people wrote.

[1601] Like every one of these historical biographies I read, there's all these journal entries they have or correspondence with other people.

[1602] And they wrote like fucking 18th century poets.

[1603] They were good writers, just like you.

[1604] Oh, my God.

[1605] I go to the president.

[1606] I could have united.

[1607] What's the era that you think you would have done by?

[1608] I'm with you.

[1609] I'm not of any era, but now.

[1610] If you're an Indian in the 50s?

[1611] Exactly.

[1612] That's even worse.

[1613] Even if we take away that part of racism, I'm not like...

[1614] Yeah, you're spunky and driven and you're a boss.

[1615] You couldn't have been subservient at any era.

[1616] Yeah.

[1617] You'd have to be on the island of Lesbos, the Greek island of Lesbos.

[1618] Why?

[1619] Well, that was a matriarchy -driven.

[1620] That's where the term lesbian comes from.

[1621] It does?

[1622] Wow, I didn't know that Double check that, Rob, as we go here But I'm pretty sure that's where Yeah, Lesbos is a place And is it where what the term lesbian comes from?

[1623] Yeah, there was association with homosexuality In that island Oh, well, Greek, who was it?

[1624] Yeah, I'm of this era Even like, I'm trying to think Like, even fashion -wise Mm -hmm, mm -hmm You don't even like covet one of these past Like Zoe de Chanel She loved breakfast at Tiffany's, that whole era of.

[1625] Yeah.

[1626] I know, not really.

[1627] I do.

[1628] I mean, I like a strong shoulder.

[1629] So I guess 80 shoulder pads were cool.

[1630] Okay, great.

[1631] Oh, man. I wouldn't have wanted to be so fucking confined as a man, like to not be able to talk about being scared and lonely and insecure and all these things.

[1632] But what about fashion?

[1633] Well, 50s.

[1634] White T -shirt and Levi's.

[1635] I think we've covered that before.

[1636] Yeah, you love that.

[1637] Classic.

[1638] Very good look.

[1639] Okay.

[1640] How many people are in Sweden?

[1641] How many Swedish people are there in Sweden?

[1642] Oh, wow.

[1643] Can I guess?

[1644] Of course.

[1645] 17 million.

[1646] 10 .35 million in 2020.

[1647] I think they got 7 million more people during the...

[1648] Because they had open...

[1649] I think I heard that.

[1650] I heard that.

[1651] Yeah.

[1652] 17.

[1653] There we go.

[1654] That's a...

[1655] Okay, good.

[1656] No, 10 friends are...

[1657] Oh, I believe my own joke.

[1658] Okay, 10.

[1659] Wow.

[1660] What a productive country for only 10 million people?

[1661] Like, you know.

[1662] about Sweden.

[1663] You know about Nokia.

[1664] You know about Volvo.

[1665] You know about...

[1666] True.

[1667] Saab.

[1668] You know about their airplanes.

[1669] You know...

[1670] I don't know about their airplanes.

[1671] They're called Sobs as well.

[1672] They were an aeronautical company.

[1673] Okay.

[1674] No one knows about them.

[1675] Thank you.

[1676] Okay.

[1677] Stephen Pinker.

[1678] We were a little confused at the college he's associated with.

[1679] Yeah.

[1680] He went to Harvard.

[1681] Okay.

[1682] Pinker is the Johnstone Family Professor of psychology at Harvard.

[1683] At Harvard?

[1684] Okay, so he's at Harvard.

[1685] Mm -hmm.

[1686] Mm -hmm.

[1687] I got to say of all the people we hear talk, these kind, I mean, they're psychologists or whatnot, but they're really philosophers in a way.

[1688] Yeah.

[1689] He's the one I'm, I like to hope is right the most.

[1690] Of course, because he's very optimistic.

[1691] He is, he's hopeful.

[1692] And he's sweet, remember?

[1693] He's cute hair, too.

[1694] Oh, yeah.

[1695] Not as cute as Nate Tuck, but...

[1696] No, but cute in it.

[1697] In his own way.

[1698] Okay, we talk a lot about Neanderthals.

[1699] I'm sorry.

[1700] I'm going to say it like that.

[1701] Because I didn't, I'm not an anthropology major.

[1702] So I haven't earned the right.

[1703] But you know what's funny is you're the big stickler on like respecting everyone's language and culture.

[1704] Yeah.

[1705] Neanderthal is a German word.

[1706] They don't do they just do tea.

[1707] That's why it's Neanderthal.

[1708] In Germany where they named it, it's Neanderthal.

[1709] I believe I'm not saying anyone.

[1710] I'm saying I'm wrong.

[1711] I just, yeah, like I feel like I can't say that Because I feel silly saying it.

[1712] Okay.

[1713] I got you.

[1714] But you're an anthropology major.

[1715] You're allowed.

[1716] An orangutan.

[1717] Also a German word.

[1718] Okay, yeah.

[1719] Orangutan.

[1720] Oh, wow.

[1721] I wouldn't go that far, but orangutan.

[1722] Anyway, Neanderthals.

[1723] She said there was one name Ertsy, but I couldn't find it.

[1724] And I probably because I just don't know how to spell it.

[1725] Yeah, sure.

[1726] I tried different ways, but I don't, I don't know.

[1727] But I wanted to look up.

[1728] Because you said that they're smarter than humans.

[1729] And then I was like, well, they definitely have bigger brains, right?

[1730] They have bigger brains.

[1731] Yes, they had bigger brains.

[1732] 1650 versus 1510.

[1733] Just crazy.

[1734] But that doesn't mean they're smarter.

[1735] Not necessarily, because it's really smarts currently is believed to be a neocortex body ratio.

[1736] That's why a capuchin is incredibly brilliant.

[1737] Its brain is tiny, a capuchin monkey, the one you see in all the movies with the skin face.

[1738] Yeah.

[1739] But they're so tiny.

[1740] Their neocortex relationship to their body mass is quite high.

[1741] Same with the crows.

[1742] Same with an orca.

[1743] I want to say in orcas, now this would need to be checked.

[1744] But I do believe orca might be the only one that has a higher neocortex to body mass index than humans.

[1745] Oh, really?

[1746] Wow.

[1747] And I wonder about dolphins because we know they're smart.

[1748] And pigs.

[1749] But I don't believe we know what the Neanderthal brain was because one's never been preserved.

[1750] But if you just, they were human, and the brain was bigger.

[1751] So it is most likely, Ockham's law would say, or Ockham's razor would say, they're probably smarter than us.

[1752] Interesting.

[1753] There's this article on The Guardian that says, scientists have concluded that Neanderthals were not the primitive dimwits they were commonly portrayed to have been.

[1754] The view of club -wielding brutes is one of the most enduring stereotypes in science.

[1755] But researchers who trawled the archaeological evidence say the image has no basis.

[1756] whatsoever.

[1757] The reasons for the demise of the Neanderthals have long been debated in the scientific community, but many explanations assume that modern humans had a cognitive edge that manifested itself in more cooperative hunting, better weaponry, and innovation, a broader diet or other major advantages.

[1758] Yeah, I don't buy that.

[1759] I think they just outpopulated them and absorbed them.

[1760] My 23 and me said I have 293 Neanderthal variants.

[1761] what percentage does that put you at don't they generally give you like more than 77 % of 23 and me people oh you had some right yeah but not as much as I wanted but I know it wasn't above average it's okay two letdowns you were pure just so enviable pure pure pure pure and I so I wasn't pure and I was not in the intertale yeah but you didn't have misophonia.

[1762] I wish I had it.

[1763] Now that would have been an upside because then I could have told Ryan like, I have it too, but I got over it.

[1764] Like I would have been able to still have the moral hygrat.

[1765] But I don't.

[1766] I still don't.

[1767] He has it and that's that.

[1768] True.

[1769] Okay.

[1770] The race breakdown of Germany.

[1771] Speaking of.

[1772] Vandratol.

[1773] Eunitol.

[1774] 86 .3 % German.

[1775] See, this is interesting.

[1776] because it's not, I wanted to know about, Neanderthal?

[1777] Mainly like color.

[1778] Oh, white, black?

[1779] Yeah.

[1780] Okay, but 86 .3 % German, 1 .8 % Turkish, 1 % Polish, 1 % Syrian, 1 % Syrian, 1 % Romanian, and then other stateless, unspecified, 8 .9.

[1781] Okay.

[1782] I don't know if they still do this, but, you know, when I took world history in 1990, At college, they broke the white people into groups of Latin, Germanic, Celtic, Anglo, and then the Scandinavians.

[1783] Now, I feel like there's just Hispanic and non -Hispanic.

[1784] Yeah, as far as I'm not on the test.

[1785] You just, that's what you click.

[1786] Yeah.

[1787] Like, how'd they, why'd they do that?

[1788] Oh, I'm missing Slavic.

[1789] So Polish, Russian, all that area is a Slavic -based ethnicity, Slavic language.

[1790] This is for all the Europeans.

[1791] Got it.

[1792] How many accidents at the Nuremberg ring?

[1793] Nuremberg.

[1794] It's tempting to say Nuremberg ring because you know the Nuremberg trials.

[1795] Yeah, that's what I'm saying.

[1796] And I used to say that as well, but it's Nuremberg.

[1797] Nuremberg ring.

[1798] Wow.

[1799] And it's one word.

[1800] Yeah, Newerburg.

[1801] No, Nurberg ring.

[1802] Oh, oh, the ring's part of it as well.

[1803] It's in there.

[1804] Oh, my God, that's great.

[1805] That's cool.

[1806] In the past year, 81 accidents in connection with tourists racing around the Nureberg ring.

[1807] Two people died as a result.

[1808] Hmm, not bad.

[1809] That's pretty good, I would say.

[1810] Tens of thousands of people going on a racetrack with uninspected vehicles.

[1811] Oh, that was 2021.

[1812] 2021 well that's curious though because that's during COVID yeah some suicidal drivers everyone's all fucked up I just wonder if it's consistent in that year it's a tourist though oh tourist tourists don't really know what they're doing well it's a handful that track so I would never I think there's a 17 mile version of it but the one you would drive normally is like 12 or 14 miles that's when we drove you did all of it you know he laps how long how long was like an hour like an hour Yeah.

[1813] Yeah.

[1814] Yeah.

[1815] Yeah.

[1816] Yeah.

[1817] Yeah.

[1818] Yeah.

[1819] You buy laps.

[1820] Like on a fucking credit card.

[1821] They hand you a credit card.

[1822] How many laps?

[1823] I'll take three laps.

[1824] And then you pull up to what it looks like you're leaving arc light, like a parking garage.

[1825] And you put the little credit card in front of the thing.

[1826] And then the gate goes up and you're on a racetrack.

[1827] It's incredible.

[1828] That's cool.

[1829] And then the Audubon is just a highway?

[1830] All the highways.

[1831] Okay.

[1832] Like they call highway autobon.

[1833] Oh, got it.

[1834] Okay.

[1835] And they were built, as you know, by Adolf Hitler.

[1836] Okay.

[1837] Speaking of pure ding, ding, ding, that is.

[1838] Someone who was obsessed with purity.

[1839] I bet he had no idea he had so much Neanderthal on him.

[1840] It's not very pure.

[1841] He had Neanderthal?

[1842] Well, he's German.

[1843] He probably had a really high rate in Neanderthal.

[1844] He probably didn't, and that's why he was so obsessed with purity because he was feeling self -conscious.

[1845] Anyways, yes.

[1846] So the Audubon, it's not always no speed limit.

[1847] It's basically when you're in between cities and it's really rural, then there's no speed limit whatsoever.

[1848] As you come closer to cities or it gets more populated than there are speed limits.

[1849] But it's worth saying that the driving test, I'm guessing, but I remember learning it.

[1850] It's like it's a year -long thing to learn to drive there.

[1851] You have to have a really good car that their cars are inspected in a different way.

[1852] Everyone there takes it very fucking serious.

[1853] It's not like two weekends at your high school and turn them loose.

[1854] They take it very seriously.

[1855] Yeah.

[1856] She had an interesting take on communism.

[1857] Right, because her grandparents.

[1858] Yeah, we're communists.

[1859] I guess pined for it or preferred it.

[1860] Yeah, they preferred it.

[1861] It's all perspective.

[1862] It's all relative.

[1863] That's all.

[1864] That was everything?

[1865] Yeah.

[1866] Would you like me to read some more?

[1867] Taylor Swift's stuff?

[1868] Did she put anything out between the last time we spoke?

[1869] No, unfortunately, no. Any tweets or any.

[1870] There's a lot of that speech left, I'm sure.

[1871] There is.

[1872] Oh my gosh.

[1873] We could do it in pieces.

[1874] Five -eighths of it.

[1875] Break it up.

[1876] We could also do more Bill's books.

[1877] There's just lots of options on the table.

[1878] See, Top Gunn.

[1879] I will.

[1880] It's great.

[1881] I will.

[1882] You know what?

[1883] This is crazy.

[1884] Here's my number.

[1885] Call me maybe.

[1886] This movie may single -handedly bring back.

[1887] the movie industry.

[1888] Wow, that's big.

[1889] I honestly think it's possible and of course it would be Tom Cruise who saved the world.

[1890] Because I think it made $250 million worldwide this weekend.

[1891] Wow.

[1892] Non -IP movies.

[1893] I mean, that is IP because Top Gun.

[1894] But still, this shouldn't happen.

[1895] And I got a hunch because so many people came out and I goddamn know everyone had a great time.

[1896] That's a certainty.

[1897] that people might be like fucking let's do this all over again yeah that'd be great if they opened up arc light again and i could sneak away to movies yeah that's fun they made some good ones like this one do you have to have seen the first one to see the second one no they do a good job at let you know what the back story is there's a couple tasteful flashbacks but you should see the first one it's a phenomenal movie i'm gonna show the girls uh tonight top gun the original so that i can then take them to the chinese i'm gonna do this all over again i love it man am i rubbed up on this it's great i'm glad that's so fun it's good to be excited about our rob can you tell me who directed this new one tomson tony scott of the old one and joseph kaczynski this motherfucker joseph kaczynski directed the shit out of this movie nat and i were watching it you know nate and i made movies together so we're always geeking out in a very esoteric way within the first 30 seconds i lean over a night ago 90 shots in the first 30 seconds like probably 90 shots of this aircraft character it is fucking mind boggling oh my god yeah the amount of stuff this dude shot is incredible little known fact uh brother of ted he doesn't like he doesn't like people knowing that but he he's the good brother you know sometimes we can't all can't enable it's the age old it's story as old as the Bible.

[1898] Yeah, that's right.

[1899] All right, well, Duck, Duck, Goose is brothers Tekizzy.

[1900] And Goose is dead.

[1901] Oh my God, and Goose is the main thing.

[1902] That's a ding, ding, ding, ding.

[1903] Yes, that is, that is, okay.

[1904] Okay, bye.

[1905] Love you.

[1906] Love you.

[1907] Follow Armchair Expert on the Wondry app, Amazon music, or wherever you get your podcasts.

[1908] You can listen to every episode of Armchair Expert early and ad free right now by joining Wondry Plus in the Wondry app.

[1909] or on Apple Podcasts.

[1910] Before you go, tell us about yourself by completing a short survey at Wondry .com slash survey.