Jonathan Abrams (on the history of Hip-Hop)

[0] Welcome, welcome, welcome to armchair expert, experts on expert.

[1] I'm Dan Shepard.

[2] I'm joined by Monica Lilly Padman.

[3] Hi there.

[4] Good morning to you.

[5] Good morning.

[6] Happy Thursday.

[7] It's almost Friday.

[8] TGIAF.

[9] Thank God it's almost Friday.

[10] What if I opened up a restaurant next to TGIF called TGIAF?

[11] That'd be funny.

[12] This conversation's a bit of a bummer.

[13] Why?

[14] Because it's actually Monday.

[15] Well, hold on.

[16] Don't ruin the man. I have to tell people.

[17] Jonathan Abrams is here, and he is an award -winning reporter for the New York Times and a best -selling author.

[18] He's written for all the newspapers as we get into.

[19] Yeah, very cool.

[20] Very accomplished writer.

[21] He has a couple of great books already called One, Boys Among Men, another book, All the Pieces Matter, and his new book, The Come Up, an Oral History of the Rise of Hip Hop.

[22] We love hip -hop over here, and we got a master class on the history of hip -hop.

[23] Also has to be said, Jonathan had on one of the OG original armchair shirts.

[24] Oh, we were so flattered.

[25] The picture of the lazy boy done in the style of an Air Jordan.

[26] Yes.

[27] And Jonathan had really fly fives on.

[28] Were they fives?

[29] They were fives.

[30] Yes.

[31] I hope I'm not embarrassed in the episode.

[32] He had a nice collection he was telling us about.

[33] He did.

[34] And he was the sweetest.

[35] Yes, we really love it.

[36] Oh, we love you, Jonathan.

[37] Please enjoy Jonathan Abrams.

[38] Wondry Plus subscribers can listen to armchair expert early and ad free right now.

[39] Join Wondry Plus in the Wondry app or on Apple Podcasts.

[40] Or you can listen for free wherever you get your podcasts.

[41] He's an armchair expert.

[42] Monica, how much of a hip -hop person are you?

[43] I know you're from Atlanta.

[44] I'm from Atlanta.

[45] I want to be realistic here.

[46] I love hip -hop, but I don't know that much, I would say.

[47] You've not been to the Trap Hall of Fame, the Museum, Trap Music.

[48] No, I haven't.

[49] But I feel like it's...

[50] Is there actually a Trap Hall of Fame?

[51] Yes, and in fact, I followed T .I. And he posted this clip, which is how I'm aware of all of it, which is Paperboy from Atlanta.

[52] He was on Corden, and he was kind of making fun of the Trap Museum.

[53] I mean, very playful.

[54] He wasn't being disparaging.

[55] But then T .I. posted this clip, and he had a response.

[56] And I think T .I. might be a part of the T. Museum's origins.

[57] I think somehow he's involved in it.

[58] What's his name?

[59] Brian Tyree Henry.

[60] Brian Tyree Henry.

[61] He's a wonderful actor.

[62] Oh my God.

[63] He's a beast.

[64] He's so good at being English in Bullet Train that I started thinking, oh fuck, is he actually English and then on Atlanta, he's doing an American accent.

[65] If so, my God, what a good accent?

[66] No, he's American.

[67] Okay, so you're from L .A. What part of L .A. did you grow up in?

[68] I am from the Inland Empire.

[69] I'll claim Los Angeles, like Corona?

[70] Not that far.

[71] You know, like, Ontario Airport.

[72] Oh, yes, yes, yeah.

[73] Uh -huh.

[74] What else do we have out there?

[75] Well, you got the fairgrounds, the Pomona Fairgrounds are right by there.

[76] I do, city I was born in.

[77] In Pomona?

[78] Pomona.

[79] We shot some of chips there, right?

[80] Yes, we did in that, like, abandoned college.

[81] So what's the vibe in that area?

[82] You were born in what year?

[83] I was born in 84.

[84] You and Monica are really splitting the difference between us.

[85] So the vibe in the area, you're old.

[86] Absolutely, only three years away from you and nine.

[87] You don't have.

[88] I have to give him that.

[89] Terrible math.

[90] 84 Inland Empire.

[91] What is the scene?

[92] I feel like the I .E. is always in the shadows of Los Angeles, right?

[93] Like you're always trying to get to the big city.

[94] So that was where a lot of the kids were.

[95] I went to USC, so I'll claim Los Angeles.

[96] Yeah, you're allowed.

[97] I claim Atlanta.

[98] I was from the suburbs.

[99] Yeah, I claimed Detroit.

[100] I was from Milford.

[101] What happens is you travel.

[102] You live in New York now, right?

[103] Randomly, I live in Charlotte.

[104] Oh, you do, even though you write for the...

[105] Right for the New York Times.

[106] So I had left the New York Times for a little while, and I came back like a decade later.

[107] And that was my first question was, can I still live in Charlotte?

[108] Because I do not want to live in New York again.

[109] Because of the cost of living or just a bunch of things didn't add up for you.

[110] I had like a vivid picture of trying to raise a kid in New York.

[111] And I just said, no. Too hard.

[112] So you just told me your kids are four and eight, did you say?

[113] Or five and eight?

[114] Eight and five.

[115] Okay, we have seven and nine.

[116] So I feel like we're in the same world a little bit.

[117] Right in the same good fight.

[118] Yeah.

[119] And have they all been in Charlotte the whole time?

[120] The oldest was born out here.

[121] I know my mom's not going to listen to this.

[122] I saw the dynamic playing out between my wife and my mom, and I said, I got to save my wife.

[123] Sure, sure, sure, sure.

[124] To the other side of the country.

[125] Well, especially when you add a little shared bean to the mix.

[126] Yeah, my mom is one of those great moms, but can be passive, aggressive.

[127] And I could see my wife kind of, I don't really like this.

[128] That was nice of you because I think a lot of husbands would just be like, But she's great, and she'll be helpful, and then the wife just has to deal with it.

[129] Yeah, and then the wife gets a trainer.

[130] And then, then all everything unravels.

[131] Where's your wife from?

[132] She's from Florida.

[133] She had an older sister who already lived in Charlotte.

[134] Have you guys been to Charlotte a lot?

[135] I have been, yes.

[136] It's beautiful.

[137] It's really nice.

[138] It is.

[139] And you can get a lot for your money out there.

[140] Absolutely.

[141] Yeah, I used to have to work there occasionally when I worked for General Motors, and I went to like the Coca -Cola 400 that's there and all that kinds of.

[142] But yeah, there's lakes and stuff.

[143] Charlotte's gorgeous.

[144] Do you ever fuck off to Asheville?

[145] I have not.

[146] It's been on my list for a long time.

[147] You got to do it.

[148] It's like my third favorite place in the country.

[149] What's that hotel?

[150] It's the Biltmore?

[151] No, that's the mansion.

[152] What's it called?

[153] My favorite hotel.

[154] Three words.

[155] Red roof inn.

[156] No, but I do think in is the last.

[157] Rob, go sit by the computer.

[158] We'll circle back.

[159] We'll circle back.

[160] It's so beautiful.

[161] And in fact, I was close this weekend in Bristol, Tennessee, which is also In Virginia, weirdly, the city incorporates both states, but it's 45 minutes from Asheville, and it pained me to be that close.

[162] Did you find it?

[163] It's the Omnigrown?

[164] No. Laquinta?

[165] All right, let me take this into my own hands.

[166] It may have been a Marriott resident, sense.

[167] No. Okay, so what is your hip -hop awakening?

[168] Because you've written a book now, The Come Up, an oral history of the rise of hip -hop.

[169] When do you get infected by it?

[170] So I was one of those kids who, growing up, my mom was like, none of that hoppity hip -hip.

[171] in our house she would take one look at a parental advisory sticker and just chucked that CD out and she threw out one of my Tupac CDs.

[172] Tupac was one of the first guys who I grew up and I was right in that wheelhouse of that age being really influenced by him and he was showing me a world that as a young black kid I wasn't getting in school that education I felt I needed.

[173] He was teaching me about life.

[174] Brenda's got a baby and even if I sound like I get around like all those songs are going into my head back then.

[175] So I just missed NWA and I was like a little bit aware of the chronic and doggy style growing up, but Tupac was the one who was right in my will house.

[176] Now, I'm going to be wrong about all this, but I'm just going to be my impersonation.

[177] So I'm older than you.

[178] I'm 75.

[179] So I was like at the height of Run DMC walk this way.

[180] Was that not the first completely commercial runaway hit?

[181] Everyone liked it, Run DMC?

[182] Yeah, Run DMC was the first group that really crossed over with Russell Simmons kind of leading that mindset and that hit way of crossing the black group over to White America.

[183] Maybe it was calculated, maybe it was organic.

[184] But the fact that they had sampled Aerosmith to me feels very helpful in bridging that gap.

[185] Oh, no, that was completely calculated.

[186] It was.

[187] Their producer, Larry Smith, had that conscious noise that rock and roll and hip -hop are both rebellious music.

[188] And they should go along together.

[189] And that was a mindset because they had rock box before that.

[190] And they had a couple other rock songs that kind of went into that same lineage.

[191] And it was like, okay, you can't deny us anymore when we put freaking Aerosmith on here.

[192] Yes.

[193] Again, this is from my perspective, I can't wait for you to tell me how it evolves at this point.

[194] But first introductions for me were broadly appealing, radio -friendly, let's -go -dancing kind of hip -hop.

[195] And then the door was open to all this now other stuff where it was getting way more seemingly autobiographical.

[196] We're learning about what life is like, especially like with the South Central stuff, all the NWA and all the artists that came out of there.

[197] you could find a niche then when I was in high school ice cube and ghetto boys were number one for me in ice cube there was like an intelligence and a hostility towards the system that was very appealing to me and so I'm curious what about Tupac for you what was the essential ingredient where you're like oh this guy because as I learned more about Tupac he like went to an art school he was super artistic and very educated yeah for me he just showed the full range of humanity.

[198] You couldn't turn on a TV and watch a movie really back then and see like, okay, this black guy is smart, but he can also go scorch earth.

[199] He can also be threatening and menacing, but he can also be a poet.

[200] Too fuck was all that.

[201] Yes.

[202] Who claims him?

[203] We kind of claim him out here, right?

[204] But he's from New York.

[205] He's from New York.

[206] He went to school in Baltimore.

[207] He made his debut in Oakland, and then he came down to Los Angeles.

[208] Like, his first hip -hop name was MC New York.

[209] Oh, really?

[210] And he went to school, Jada Pickett Smith.

[211] Yeah.

[212] They were like classmates and best friends.

[213] Do you know that?

[214] I didn't know that.

[215] Yeah.

[216] They were like artsy kids going to one of these art schools, like a funnel in a public school.

[217] So you write for the New York Times?

[218] I'm a sports writer for the New York Times guy.

[219] He also was a staff writer at the Los Angeles Times.

[220] He also worked with Grant Land.

[221] RIP.

[222] Best website ever.

[223] Was it?

[224] I love Grant Land.

[225] Tell me what made it great and what happened.

[226] It was like at the beginning of the sports internet wave where you were really just finding yourself out and your Spotify brethren, Bill Simmons, is just an amazing mastermind.

[227] He's really good at finding talent and pushing that talent.

[228] And we were really just doing what we wanted.

[229] And it was such a talented staff.

[230] Wesley Morris, who has gone on to win a couple Pulitzer's, Zach Lowe, who was like an NBA survant.

[231] It just kind of ended.

[232] I don't know if it found a way to be profitable at that time.

[233] And podcasts weren't as big as they were now.

[234] Now you go to the ringer.

[235] It's successor and it's amazingly popular podcast network.

[236] Yeah.

[237] He's definitely a Titan.

[238] Did you major in journalism at USC?

[239] I did.

[240] I was really lucky because I knew what I wanted to do from early on.

[241] And back then, I didn't just major in journalism.

[242] I majored in print journalism.

[243] So I was really limiting myself.

[244] I didn't have any backup.

[245] Right after I graduated, journalism basically started imploding.

[246] We majored in wagon wheels.

[247] Exactly.

[248] I was filling out my classes because there was only so many print journalism classes I could take.

[249] I was taking like basketball and soccer and tennis, just trying to.

[250] to get enough units to graduate.

[251] And so when you got out, things were crumbling, right?

[252] So the amount of jobs available are shrinking and shrinking.

[253] I got really, really lucky because there is this minority editorial program that was going on at the Los Angeles Times.

[254] And it was one of the best things ever and the worst things ever, because they take 10 students from around the nation who just graduated college, they're going into journalism, and the LA Times basically trains you for a year.

[255] You're writing stories.

[256] You're in this program, but it's really, really competitive because Because at the end of that year, these 10 newspapers that at the time they were owned by Tribune, they basically have a draft.

[257] Oh, wow.

[258] So you could stay at the Los Angeles Times.

[259] You could end up at a little newspaper in Virginia.

[260] Oh, my God.

[261] It was like entering the NFL.

[262] It was really, really stressful because you're with these people all the time and they're talented.

[263] You want to be friends, but you're also competing with them.

[264] Yeah.

[265] The funny thing is that my wife was in the program the same year I was.

[266] Oh, wait.

[267] Oh, that's how you guys met?

[268] Yeah.

[269] Oh, that's so cute.

[270] And who made the cut?

[271] I ended up staying in Los Angeles.

[272] And my wife, she's from Florida, so she ended up going back to the Orlando Sentinel.

[273] Nice.

[274] And so I guess the layup for you is to write some kind of a sports book.

[275] That was my first book was a book on basketball, on the whole high school to pro generation of players.

[276] Was that a new phenomenon?

[277] When did that start, Kobe?

[278] So there were a couple people in the 70s.

[279] There was Moses Malone and Bill Willoughby, and then it kind of got shut off.

[280] But the guy who really reopened that door was Kevin Garnett.

[281] And Kobe was a year after I love Garnett If they did a behind the scenes interview with him He'd have them meet him at the salon Where he's getting Manny and Petty He's so fucking confident He's kind of like the Snoop Dog of the NBA He has a swagger that you just can't top And he's skinny and freaky looking And he's so hot Everyone bought in I've never seen a guy Just so intense All the time Just never off button There'd be groups of reporters Trying to get quotes after a game and Garnett, you see him and it's like, who's going to be the first reporter and make that step over and get his head blown off so the other reporters can go ahead.

[282] Was he famous for that?

[283] Would he let people have it?

[284] Yeah.

[285] I don't remember seeing that.

[286] Well, that stuff got buried.

[287] Yeah, this was before the camera phones and everything in the locker room when print journalism ruled the day.

[288] Yeah.

[289] I had to date myself.

[290] The other dude of his era that I loved was on the Seattle Sonics, Peyton's powered forward.

[291] Oh, Sean Kemp.

[292] What happened to him?

[293] Sean Kim.

[294] I think he has a CBD store.

[295] He's doing that now.

[296] Okay.

[297] This would make him so cool to me. He had a shoe deal.

[298] He was incredible.

[299] And his commercial for his shoes was him driving around in a 96 Cadillac Fleetwood.

[300] And I'm like, this dude's keeping it real as fuck.

[301] This is his commercial.

[302] He's rolling around in this 20 -year -old Cadillac.

[303] Yeah, I got to have one.

[304] Yeah.

[305] I'll get one before I die.

[306] It's like the shit I couldn't have.

[307] He just kind of disappeared.

[308] I think he tested positive for marijuana.

[309] So it's no surprise that he runs his CBD store now.

[310] Oh, yeah.

[311] Okay, keeping it.

[312] I like that.

[313] I wish he owned a Cadillac franchise.

[314] I think that would be the most true to him.

[315] Okay, so back to hip -hop.

[316] What reservations do you have when you write a book about hip -hop?

[317] Because one of the things that fascinates me most about hip -hop is how much of it is presentation and story.

[318] I can imagine anyone feeling not qualified to get in there and take on that story, if that makes any sense.

[319] Yeah, it certainly makes sense, especially for somebody who has a sports journalism background.

[320] But I knew that, one, I have a love for this genre, and I grew up with it.

[321] And I know that at my heart, I'm a reporter.

[322] So I'm going to do the research.

[323] And doing the research, I probably read about 30, 40 books on hip -hop to learn everything I could.

[324] And I had journalism friends.

[325] I say, oh, I'm going to write an oral history on hip -hop.

[326] What the fuck?

[327] Yeah, yeah.

[328] You know, like, you're crazy.

[329] And I knew that there were certain tent poles that I would have to hit, and I'd just go wherever the reporting and the interviews literally.

[330] me. Okay, so what was like the surprise?

[331] You start at the beginning, obviously, and I think even to start there, you've got to recognize the history of music that predates hip hop even.

[332] Yeah, what is the beginning?

[333] The quote -unquote beginning, because there's a lot of debate and stuff about it, is 1973, this DJ named Cool Hurt throws an after -school party for his sister Cindy, and he displays this new DJing technique where he's extending the break beats, the repeated drum samples in the song, and kids are able to dance to that and get.

[334] down to it and that creates the music that goes forward.

[335] So it's really recycled music from all these records that Herk is finding that really propels this genre.

[336] He has two turntables, I'm assuming.

[337] Is he the first dude at that point?

[338] Or no, people were still pairing up when a song would end and when one would start, right?

[339] Like that part was well worn at that point.

[340] Yeah, they were doing that, but going from one to another and extending the brakes, that was completely new.

[341] And then you have these other two DJs, Africa Bombata and Grandmaster Flash in the Bronx at the same time who are doing similar but different techniques and also elevating and improving on what Herk had done.

[342] And then you also have to think about what's going on at the Bronx, right?

[343] It's late 1970s.

[344] It's really poor, really desolate.

[345] The Bronx is burning.

[346] Summer Sam.

[347] All this stuff is going on.

[348] This literally started out of nothing, out of poor kids in the Bronx, just trying to figure out something to do to enrich their lives and it becomes the most widely consumed musical genre ever.

[349] Wow.

[350] There's an Apple show maybe.

[351] about music there's one whole episode on sampling and what i don't think ever occurred to me is the coolest thing about sampling is you can have nothing you don't need an instrument you don't need an instructor to teach you that you don't need to learn how to read music you can be an entire band with a handful of albums how democratizing sampling is and that's exactly what it is and it used to be like in the late 80s when sampling was first getting invented like it was like the wow wow west like People were taking shit from everywhere, and there was no thoughts of copyright infringement or anything, right?

[352] Yeah.

[353] Because it was still becoming popular.

[354] Now that's like a big reason why De LaSalle, a lot of their catalog isn't on iTunes because so much other stuff was sampled.

[355] Did they not have Steely Dan's?

[356] I know I love you better for Three Feet and Rising?

[357] They had so much stuff.

[358] How did it work?

[359] That's still always confused me. You can play X amount of a song without having to pay a royalty, or no?

[360] I think it's gone through several different permutations.

[361] to get to this point.

[362] I mean, now all the record labels have all these lawyers and stuff to figure that out where it's just hands off for a lot of stuff because some people just won't clear their stuff.

[363] Right.

[364] Obviously, Run DMC, they had some arrangement with Aerosmith.

[365] Yeah, that was a complete collaboration.

[366] Right.

[367] And I think that's what people wanted to write off hip -up early on is like they're just playing other people's music.

[368] They didn't want to recognize the genius behind combining all these different things and do a new thing altogether.

[369] Exactly.

[370] It was just a fad is what they were told time after time again.

[371] So Grandmaster Flash is the first one I know of.

[372] It's like a jungle sometimes.

[373] It makes me wonder how I keep from going under.

[374] You know that song?

[375] I'm chocolate thunder.

[376] I'm just trying to trigger you.

[377] I'm not going to wrap a lot during this interview.

[378] I feel like there's going to be so much rapping.

[379] No, no, no, no. You know that song, right?

[380] I don't think so.

[381] But I don't know that I would.

[382] Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

[383] I'm sorry.

[384] I love you, but I don't know that I know it based on your rendition.

[385] My bad rendition of it, yeah.

[386] Broken glass everywhere.

[387] Rob, will you play it?

[388] Rob, help.

[389] It's like a jungle sometimes.

[390] Also, it is, it is, it is.

[391] He is Omni, but it's Grove Park Inn, but now they've added Omni to the front of the hotel.

[392] Oh, so he was right.

[393] Well, Grove Park Inn.

[394] Oh.

[395] Oh, this will be fun for this episode.

[396] He could play some stuff.

[397] We'll get...

[398] I do know this.

[399] I do know this.

[400] I do, do, do, de, de, de, de, de, de, de, de, de, de, de, de, de, de.

[401] And the video's fantastic.

[402] Grand Master Flesh is sitting on a stoop.

[403] He's in the neighborhood.

[404] He's got a huge jam box.

[405] It's simple.

[406] It's the neighborhood, right?

[407] It is, yeah.

[408] And the guy who wrote a lot of these lyrics for this song, his name is Edwin Fletcher.

[409] He was in the house band for Sugar Hill Gang at the time.

[410] He passed away last year, but one of the things that I'm really happy about is that I was able to talk to him for this book before he passed.

[411] Really?

[412] How cool.

[413] What does he think about playing that instrumental of a role in this whole story?

[414] He helped do a lot of the music for it as well.

[415] He just said, like, he was documenting what he saw and what he grew up on.

[416] And at that time, that came out in 1982.

[417] And you never think that a song is going to last for that long.

[418] But he said hip -hop.

[419] at the time, people were just talking about parties and, you know, it was like a hip hop, they weren't saying anything.

[420] Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[421] It's like scat.

[422] Yeah, he's like, what we're doing, it has to mean something.

[423] Ice tea was kind of saying that, too.

[424] Like, when he first was...

[425] He's today's episode about, weirdly.

[426] This is serendipitous.

[427] Today's episode's iced tea.

[428] Oh, man. Yeah.

[429] Cannot wait to listen.

[430] Well, he had to listen to me rap colors to him.

[431] Monica's having a little trigger, some PTSD from when he was...

[432] I wrote that in the description today.

[433] Oh, you did.

[434] I said, Dax raps.

[435] Did you guys talk about 6 in the morning at all?

[436] No. Six in the morning was one of the first gangster rap songs that Ice T did.

[437] It came out in 1986.

[438] And it was probably the West Coast's first gangster rap song.

[439] Really?

[440] The 6 in the morning is when the police used to knock down the door with their batarans.

[441] Oh, my God.

[442] Something I taught to him in the book.

[443] So cool.

[444] You talked to a bunch of people, I assume.

[445] I had a lot of fun talking to people.

[446] I talked to people like Just Blaze.

[447] and DMC and ice tea and ice cube.

[448] Selfishly, that was a big part of why I wanted to do the book.

[449] Of course.

[450] This is a tricky thing for me to try to articulate, but I'm going to do my best, especially for me being way out in Michigan.

[451] And when I'm hearing NWA, I really am assuming these guys are shooting up corners every night when they're not recording.

[452] Like, I'm buying into the total image.

[453] So many of them now will say, like, well, we were reporting what we were seeing, not so much as claiming it was us.

[454] But I guess my deep fascination with everyone that's in, especially that leg of hip hop like gangster rap, the persona in my deep curiosity who they are behind the persona.

[455] I'm one hand, these are beautiful artistic musicians and yet some people get painted into a corner of the image of it.

[456] I think it's probably a mixture.

[457] Like some of those guys, they become legends and they use that legend to play off of and become this artist.

[458] Some of those guys is probably not dissimilar from being an actor.

[459] Totally.

[460] And I never want to be disrespectful to anyone.

[461] Like Ice Cube.

[462] Ice Cube fascinates me. He's so fucking brilliant.

[463] And he seems to have always been so aware of the bigger picture.

[464] He wasn't EasyE.

[465] Or you tell me. No, he wasn't EasyE.

[466] So just to get back to your prior question.

[467] For NWA, EasyE was that guy who was the real guy who was authentically living out in the streets, where Ice Cube was like a surfant with words.

[468] He was a 16 -year -old pinning a lot of NWA lyrics, pinning Fuck the Police and other stuff that he grew up on.

[469] And then Dr. Dre was a genius with music.

[470] So all that stuff coalesced in that one group.

[471] Yeah.

[472] I was trying to ask iced tea about it, but it wasn't super successful.

[473] I just imagine the weight of having to eventually shed that.

[474] As like everyone grows and evolves.

[475] And I just don't know how you set that down at any point.

[476] So let me ask you this because I'm a reporter and I love asking questions.

[477] Yeah, yeah.

[478] Let me just respond to your question with a question.

[479] No, Jay -Z is one of your favorite artists.

[480] He's God.

[481] Jay -Z has done it, right?

[482] I mean, he's like the evolution of hip -hop personified and evolving throughout the years.

[483] But am I wrong in that he was selling Coke in front of the projects?

[484] He was.

[485] He's a for -real hustler.

[486] I don't know him.

[487] But I know that dude.

[488] The confidence in the...

[489] It's not aggressiveness.

[490] It's just I know how capable he is in any interaction.

[491] And I know that dude could sell drugs and be fine with it and stay alive.

[492] So I think for him, it's kind of easier because he's, the real deal.

[493] And he's like, I'm a businessman now.

[494] He's happy to be a businessman.

[495] Like, I think the evolution for him seems a little more organic or maybe almost easier because he legit was that thing.

[496] So let's think back to the early 2000s.

[497] And at that time, Jay -Z and DMX are neck -and -neck popularity -wise.

[498] And they both can go either direction.

[499] Somebody in the book made this point was that Jay -Z was the one who was able to see the bigger picture while DMX had that success and he wasn't able to necessarily leave it as he got more rich and more popular and kept going.

[500] Yeah.

[501] Have you watched this most recent DMX documentary?

[502] I haven't.

[503] It's on my list.

[504] Fuck, it's heartbreaking.

[505] For me, the thing that transcends all that is he's just a hardcore addict.

[506] When I watch that, I see someone in the throes of addiction, and then the tropes you have to lean on in an addiction, and then that's all he had is that he was a bad motherfucker.

[507] He'd be happy to fight anyone when he's dropping by the projects to reconnect with people.

[508] Like, he's half handing out $100 bills, and he's half ready to.

[509] to reestablish that he's still that dude.

[510] Because that's all he had because of the addiction.

[511] When I saw it, I'm like, this is heartbreaking.

[512] Because I think I underestimated how great DMX was prior to watching that.

[513] Whenever you want to get rowdy, you can just put on a DMX song and I can run three miles in 20 minutes.

[514] Just let's go.

[515] Yeah, the energy level was just unparalleled.

[516] Which the addiction might have played a part.

[517] And maybe it was the positive end of that.

[518] Well, he likes smoking rock, as did I. It'll get you fired up in a hurry.

[519] I have another question for you guys Because you guys both grew up In really unique hip hop epicenters Dax you were an adult When the whole M &M wave came through And Jay Dilla and Slum Village and all that How did you see that as an adult?

[520] This is a good tricky question First of all, I had no idea Jay Dilla was from Detroit Until like two months ago I would watch adult swim There was a transitional piece of music That I got obsessed with And then I found out It was Jay Dilla Then I got some J. Dilla.

[521] Didn't even know Common was singing on some of the stuff I loved.

[522] We interviewed him.

[523] I was regretful.

[524] I didn't put any of that together.

[525] So I didn't even know J. Della was from Detroit.

[526] M &M is a tricky one for me. First of all, he's a genius.

[527] Like, I recognize the insane genius of him.

[528] It wasn't my music.

[529] Now, I love Lose Yourself.

[530] Like, that song really got me. But it's just a really clever, eccentric, weird, eclectic lyrics for me or whatever.

[531] There's something about him being white, too.

[532] I don't know what it is.

[533] I think because I grew up in Michigan and I'm picturing that dude in my high school and I have certain feelings about that dude in my high school and yet I recognize bonified fucking genius one of the best to ever live.

[534] I can see it, but I just wasn't pulled towards it.

[535] I'm surprised though because since you did grow up in that and you knew Eminem's, at least you knew that was authentic because you saw that type.

[536] I think I came to learn it was more authentic in him than I first evaluated.

[537] I thought was like, oh, is this dude a poser?

[538] Like, is this dude real?

[539] Right, but that's what I'm saying.

[540] I'm surprised that you thought that having seen people like him who weren't posers.

[541] If Neil turned out to be an incredible hip -hop.

[542] My brother.

[543] Your brother.

[544] I'm sure wishes he was here.

[545] He loves hip -hop.

[546] And he's a cute Indian kid from Atlanta.

[547] So if he turned out to be a great lyricist, I wouldn't leap at it.

[548] Dex, that's my brother.

[549] I love him.

[550] That's why we're going to cut it out.

[551] We're not cutting it.

[552] He's going to be so mad at you.

[553] He's sadly putting his mixtape into his backpack right now.

[554] I know.

[555] I have stereotypes.

[556] I guess that's really what it boils down to.

[557] Like, if you're a jazz musician, you better be a fucking brilliant jazz musician as a white dude.

[558] Or I'm just not that receptive to it.

[559] There's something I have, I think maybe because I would go in and out of Detroit and there was a culture.

[560] I totally was obsessed with and I knew I couldn't be a part of it.

[561] And the only way I could be a part of it was by these jazz albums or this.

[562] music, it was like the only way I could digest it and enjoy it and be a part of it while not being a part of it.

[563] So if it's a white dude doing it, there's something for me that's just like, well, that's not what I was so longing to be a part of.

[564] That makes sense.

[565] But you're right, I just think he's just a genius with words.

[566] Like, he can make words work in ways that I've never thought possible.

[567] He's incredible.

[568] And especially now that I'm over my little chip, I'll hear some of the old songs I got really popular.

[569] And I'm like, oh, he was on another level.

[570] And then, of course, the fact that Dre's the one who brought him in can't have more street cred than Dre.

[571] I don't know why I would trust myself over Dr. Dre.

[572] None of it makes sense other than just, I guess it wasn't the exotic world I wanted to be able to touch.

[573] Do you think there was some jealousy?

[574] No. Are you sure?

[575] That was never in my life of the many arrogant fantasies.

[576] Never did I fancy myself getting into hip hop.

[577] No, no, no. But you did want to be accepted.

[578] by the black community in Detroit.

[579] And Eminem was.

[580] He was a part of it.

[581] Oh, yeah, he's a much more than me. Right.

[582] So I'm sure that was a piece where subconsciously that person was accepted, but why?

[583] He's just a white guy like me and why don't I get that?

[584] I'm sure it has to be a little piece.

[585] Maybe.

[586] But there's so many layers, right?

[587] Because I also know black dudes that feel excluded from that world.

[588] Yeah, without a doubt.

[589] Right?

[590] Like, I know black kids that didn't grow up around that.

[591] To them, it's still this really.

[592] exotic wild thing that you saw in movies without a doubt monica i'm wondering because when i got to a certain age i feel like outcast was so prevalent in my life did you feel that in oh yeah huge i mean i do think because i grew up in suburbs so again i was not in the scene but atlanta and metro Atlanta does take like a ton of pride in their hip -hop stars so even ludicrous like it was like a big deal for us that they were from Atlanta.

[593] Yeah, we really took that on.

[594] I love Outcast.

[595] Atlanta's like the New York as the mecca of hip -hop.

[596] Neil, my brother's the next big thing.

[597] Keep your eyes out and don't listen to Dak. I'm going to buy his whatever you can buy.

[598] He has a hat.

[599] Well, no, of course he has a hat, but I mean, I'm going to buy whatever album he puts out however one does that.

[600] Okay, let's get into the different geographic pockets because I do think that's fascinating.

[601] So before any of the L .A. stuff, it was all really.

[602] really New York.

[603] It was New York for a good while, and it started going out to L .A. And then right after NWA kind of exploded, you have all these different pockets developing.

[604] So in Miami, you have Miami bass, and that's two live crew.

[605] That's like fucking booty trash.

[606] Booty shaking music.

[607] Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

[608] That was never my damn.

[609] It was silly to me. Their most successful single early on was a song called Throw the D. There we go.

[610] Yeah, Lamborghinis and all this shit.

[611] For whatever reason, that wasn't that bye -bye was trying to touch.

[612] But nevertheless, part of the story.

[613] Big part of the story.

[614] You've seen the U. Yep.

[615] Oh, to see how interwoven that shit was with the U back then?

[616] University of Miami.

[617] Those must have been crazy days.

[618] Because you had Uncle Luke running around Miami.

[619] Who's Uncle Luke?

[620] Uncle Luke was the main party promoter and the main group person for two -life crew.

[621] So I went to USC when USC got in trouble for violations with Reggie.

[622] Bush.

[623] I can only imagine the stuff that went on at the University of Miami in the late 1980s and early 1990s.

[624] In Houston, you have Chopped and Screwed coming out with DJ Screw where if you've ever heard the really lazy, slow -tempo, hallucinogenic music coming out.

[625] You guys know what I'm talking about?

[626] Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[627] I wouldn't have known that was Houston specific.

[628] Yeah, that was really popular.

[629] Where were ghetto boys from?

[630] Dallas or Houston?

[631] They were Houston.

[632] They were Houston.

[633] Yeah.

[634] Fifth Ward.

[635] Scarface, he's not talked about and the whole echelon of top greatest rappers of all time, top five, whatever you want to give.

[636] He's up there.

[637] Yes, Aaron and I lived for ghetto boys.

[638] I was going to say, that's probably the group that we most were obsessed with.

[639] Other than ice cube was ghetto boys.

[640] Can I hit you with one lyric?

[641] Sure.

[642] Yo, Kathy, that hole was hot.

[643] First piece of pussy that I ever got.

[644] She fucked me over on my back, opened up my butt cheeks and started licking out my asshole.

[645] You know that lyric.

[646] Yeah, because you've sang it before.

[647] Yeah.

[648] What a song!

[649] In the 90s, licking out my asshole, you just didn't get that in pop music back.

[650] That is Shakespeare.

[651] Stay tuned for more armchair expert, if you dare.

[652] We've all been there.

[653] Turning to the internet to self -diagnose our inexplicable pains, debilitating body aches, sudden fevers, and strange rashes.

[654] Though our minds tend to spiral to worst -case scenarios, it's usually nothing, but for an unlucky few, these unsuspecting symptoms can start the clock ticking on a terrifying medical mystery.

[655] Like the unexplainable death of a retired firefighter, whose body was found at home by his son, except it looked like he had been cremated, or the time when an entire town started jumping from buildings and seeing tigers on their ceilings.

[656] Hey listeners, it's Mr. Ballin here, and I'm here to tell you about my podcast.

[657] It's called Mr. Ballin's Medical Mysteries.

[658] Each terrifying true story will be sure to keep you up at night.

[659] Mr. Ballin's Medical Mysteries wherever you get your podcasts.

[660] Prime members can listen early and add free on Amazon music.

[661] What's up guys?

[662] It's your girl Kiki, and my podcast is back with a new season, and let me tell you, it's too good.

[663] And I'm diving into the brains of entertainment's best and brightest, okay?

[664] Every episode, I bring on a friend and have a real conversation.

[665] And I don't mean just friends.

[666] I mean the likes of Amy Poehler, Kell Mitchell, Vivica Fox, the list goes on.

[667] So follow, watch, and listen to Baby.

[668] This is Kiki Palmer on Wondery app or wherever you get your podcast.

[669] Okay, so Houston's trippy, slower, it's hot down there, that's why.

[670] Yeah, you're riding around in cars, you're lazy.

[671] Is this stuff random or would it have been predictable for people?

[672] No, I don't think there's any way it could have been predictable because a lot of it is just based off of how that area is.

[673] So Houston, we joked around about it being slow, but that's why it developed like that.

[674] In Los Angeles, the music that I .T. was doing and NWA was doing, it's also slow.

[675] It's not as slow, but it's the music that you can drive around in your car to.

[676] On the freeways, on the beach, you can really listen to the lyrics.

[677] And that's why somebody like Ice -T really slowed down six in the morning, you could actually hear the words.

[678] Yeah.

[679] Then in Miami, you're dancing, you're shaking, you're going crazy.

[680] That's why the BPMs are up.

[681] And it's that pounding, rolling 808 drum machine.

[682] What would you say Atlanta's fingerprint is then?

[683] So Atlanta is so amazing because I feel like Atlanta is a place that is like, hey, we're going to take your shit and we're going to do it better.

[684] Because they've done that over and over again.

[685] Crunk, the stuff that little John did.

[686] Oh, yeah.

[687] That stuff was born in Memphis.

[688] Little John took it in Atlanta.

[689] Trap was born basically in Memphis.

[690] Atlanta is going to do it better.

[691] And Killer Mike, I talked to him for this book.

[692] He said that the thing that's different in Atlanta is that they're not afraid to kill the trend that others still see coming up for a new one.

[693] And everybody elevates that.

[694] So they keep killing what's new and making the next new thing.

[695] Oh, interesting.

[696] So getting back to Outcast, the 95 Source Awards are at this big tent pole event in rap music history where you had the whole East Coast, West Coast thing going on and Shug Knight gets on stage and it's like any producers who don't want to dance.

[697] Yeah, that direct shot at Puff Daddy.

[698] Do you know that whole moment?

[699] Yeah, but I actually wanted you to go into this because I do know this is a huge moment.

[700] This is what sets off a bunch of desks.

[701] Right.

[702] So tell us about everything that happened then.

[703] One of the big things beyond the bunch of deaths that happens that night is that Outcast wins best new rap group.

[704] And this is the Mecca.

[705] They're in New York.

[706] This is really one of the first times that all the East and West Coast are in the same room.

[707] Nobody's thinking or giving a crap about Atlanta.

[708] And this little group wins this award and people are like, what the fuck?

[709] They start booing Outcast and Andre 3000 is standing there.

[710] And basically he goes, the South got something to say.

[711] Oh.

[712] He didn't just say Atlanta has something to say.

[713] It becomes a rallying cry for Miami, for New Orleans.

[714] for Memphis, for all these other different areas to basically unite.

[715] So in the years after that, you see cash money come through in New Orleans, and you see all these crews coming through in Memphis, and you just see the whole South start rallying and supporting each other, and the South started buying albums and numbers.

[716] And they basically just take over hip -hop after that.

[717] Okay, so the East Coast, West Coast Wars, can you deep dive into that?

[718] Yeah, so at that time at the 95 Source Awards, you have Tupac in jail, and he's sequestered.

[719] He's trying to figure out what he's going to do, where he's going to go next.

[720] So when Shug Knight gets on stage, that's basically a call to Tupac, sign with Death Row.

[721] Death Row is going to protect you.

[722] That's what that was about?

[723] Yeah.

[724] Oh, wow.

[725] Yeah, that was basically a direct message to Tupac.

[726] Right then, there's also a bunch of behind -the -scenes stuff going on where I think it was Shugnight's close friend got killed by one of Puff Daddy's bodyguards in Atlanta at a party.

[727] and that was another behind -the -scenes things that really set in emotion all that East Coast West Coast stuff all that was bubbling and at that same time Shug Knight had basically run up in New York and was literally taking people's artists away from that while he was in New York during that time okay and at that moment in time Puffy's the biggest producer on the East and Shug's the biggest on the West Coast exactly so we kind of came a personal thing between those two oh without a doubt hence that if you don't want your producer dancing in your music video because Puffy was dancing and what biggie's that was all the shiny outfits dancing in the middle of the videos right what's your opinion i'm all for it that was a hell of an air okay i know i don't like what's the problem with that here we go i'm getting in more trouble oh didn't love puffy loved biggie but i was like oh this guy puffy's a used car salesman like i know this dude you think you know you're like i know you said that a couple of times oh yeah i think i know everyone right I think I know like this personality type.

[728] I was just a little bit like, no, this guy, he's a producer, I guess.

[729] That's what he is.

[730] He is.

[731] And I think the genius of him is that he's not just a producer, but he knows how to produce events, especially at that time.

[732] He saw Biggie and what Biggie could be, and he really shaped and molded him.

[733] Because Biggie was a guy who just wanted to do these hardcore raps for his 20 friends in Brooklyn, right?

[734] Right.

[735] But Puffy was the one who was like, you got to do stuff for ladies too.

[736] You got to do one more chance.

[737] and let me dress you up and do this song that's not going to just be for your buddies in Brooklyn.

[738] And ladies, they're the ones who actually go out and buy the albums, especially back then.

[739] And that was a genius and puffy.

[740] I want to add one element to New York.

[741] So the thing I liked about New York is in high school, jazzomataz and guru was my favorite.

[742] So I love that the New York scene was incorporating jazz samples into their stuff.

[743] No one else really was.

[744] Not as much in that time.

[745] The big group who came out and did that first was Tribe Call Quest.

[746] Yes.

[747] And they were amazing with it.

[748] There was something about that movement within the New York scene that I most liked.

[749] But then I started partying and fucking chronic worked.

[750] You know, all the West Coast stuff finds its place in your life.

[751] Yeah, and that was really when West Coast started taking it over, and New York had to kind of answer.

[752] And that answer came with Biggie, and it came with Nas, and it came with your guy, Jayzee.

[753] Yeah, wow.

[754] You know what's funny, though, about Puffy.

[755] is he seems so commercial in a way that was very accessible to us.

[756] We were booty bumping to shake your tail feather and stuff.

[757] We loved him.

[758] It's crazy to me to think that he was involved in like murders and things because he just seems so commercial.

[759] I mean, obviously that's something that has evolved for him.

[760] I mean, he's like the making the band guy.

[761] I didn't know for a long time that there was this whole very dark piece.

[762] There certainly was.

[763] One person who I talked to for this book, he put it like this, that what Puffy and Jay -Z were able to do, they figured out that it wasn't necessarily monetizing hip -hop to figure out how to really elevate yourself.

[764] It was monetizing hip -hop culture.

[765] So the money wasn't necessarily going to come from these albums, but it's coming from all these other business ventures that Jay -Z is doing and that, do we call him Diddy now?

[766] I don't know what his current name is.

[767] I think we should talk about what are the artists, on making music that really they're getting rich off the white kids.

[768] And the white kids in the society they're in is fucking racist.

[769] And this weird relationship, I'm sure, with going to their own shows and seeing these people, I think that's a really complex thing, that weird relationship between like, this is what's keeping it all coming in.

[770] And yet this is complicated.

[771] Yeah.

[772] So it's like that whole dynamic of Kendrick Lamar being at a concert, inviting a white girl to come up and sing his lyrics and she starts saying the N -word, right?

[773] Oh, I don't know about this.

[774] Yeah.

[775] When did that happen?

[776] A couple years ago, Kendrick ended up kicking her off stage.

[777] Yeah, what do we do there?

[778] Yeah, this is...

[779] When you bring someone up to sing your song and every other word is the N -word.

[780] I think it's that whole debate between commercialization versus art and what you're trying to do with your music because I think the most popular art that is going to be produced for the masses and is going to be replicated over and over isn't going to be the type of art that somebody's going to think over and ponder too much.

[781] It's going to be the catchiest stuff.

[782] It's going to be the stuff that, sorry, Monica, it's coming out of Atlanta a lot these days.

[783] Yeah, that's okay.

[784] Yeah, yeah.

[785] But for the stuff that lasts, for me, I'm still listening to Public Enemy today, or I'm still listening to Tupac today.

[786] It's going to be the stuff that makes you think and makes you ponder these lyrics over and over again.

[787] It's going to be Raq Kim saying this line that you can take 17 different ways.

[788] It's not going to be the stuff that you bump at a concert.

[789] the stuff that Snoop Doggy Doggy Dog and Dr. Dre were doing with Doggy Style and the chronic where it really, really just burst through the mainstream for the first time.

[790] It's repeatable.

[791] It's that one, two, three, into the four, Snoop Doggy Dog.

[792] But that stuff, it says nothing, right?

[793] Like it may last because it's catchy, but eventually I just think it's going to burn out.

[794] Maybe not that one in particular, but a lot of the stuff that's coming out today.

[795] Well, I will say, like, Ice Cube stuff is such a snapshot of L .A. in 92 and 93, and and I post -Rodney King.

[796] That stuff is the riots, yeah, is like the oral history of Los Angeles for a decade.

[797] Without a doubt, like we said earlier, he's just a servant.

[798] So he's a guy who I've assessed from the outside that that part is tricky for him, that it's all white kids buying these albums.

[799] Is it, though?

[800] I don't know.

[801] I'm just curious about that.

[802] If I lived in a world where white people were the hegemonic group and when I got pulled over, it was white people.

[803] And when I went to court, it was a white judge.

[804] all these things, and then I make music about my neighborhood for my friends, and then I go to my concert, and it's all the people from the hedgement.

[805] That's got to be a mind fuck in some way.

[806] It would be for me, I guess.

[807] Like, I have a rich person chip on my shoulder, right, for me and white trash.

[808] So if I did something that attracted the whole group of Harvard, those dudes in the a cappella group.

[809] We are.

[810] That's what this show is.

[811] What are you talking about?

[812] We get a wide range of people, but we get those people.

[813] Yeah, I don't know what I'm saying.

[814] It seems like it would be a tricky thing.

[815] I do think it would be tricky.

[816] I would want to think that if I listen to somebody like Tupac or Kendrick Lamar, that I can ingest their lyrics in a different way than somebody who is just listening to it for fun, right?

[817] Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[818] That's true.

[819] It's what you take of it.

[820] And also, it's a business.

[821] All art is movies are businesses, too.

[822] You want it to reach as many people as possible.

[823] and you want to make money off of it?

[824] Like, let's just be honest.

[825] Yeah, but let's also talk like a very generic human trait, which is like, I want to make things for my peers.

[826] I want to make things for the people that impress me so that I can impress them.

[827] But you wanted to be successful.

[828] Oh, for sure.

[829] But as grotesquely, status -seeking as this sounds, it's why we have people in here that are on broadly appealing huge TV shows and they're bummed because they want to be on the little niche show that they know this director they love is going to watch.

[830] We just had Lillian talking about the complexity of being on Riverdale and having some complicated feelings about that.

[831] I think I'm comparing it to that.

[832] It's got to be complicated.

[833] Dave Chappelle has talked about that too before he left his show.

[834] He's so quiet about that.

[835] But he essentially said the impetus was that he was doing a sketch and he heard a laugh from the gaffers.

[836] He was like, I knew the laugh.

[837] was wrong.

[838] I knew it had crossed over.

[839] That was a racist laugh.

[840] They're saying the Enmer, they're doing all this stuff, and it's fine until he hears that.

[841] And he's like, wait a minute, what am I doing?

[842] And who's laughing and why?

[843] You know, it just, I think, broke down everything for him.

[844] I think Stearns had this problem, too, his whole career.

[845] He's told stories or Bababooie tells stories that he's at a gas station and someone yells something.

[846] It's like the crassest, grossest thing from the show and he's like, I don't think they're in on what we think is funny about this.

[847] And that's a scary feeling.

[848] Yeah.

[849] So did Kendrick Lamar ever talk about that moment on stage after and what did he say about it?

[850] I don't know if he ever addressed it afterwards.

[851] You could just see in the moment, I think it caught him off guard.

[852] I think she was boot off stage two.

[853] It went viral.

[854] Okay, can you educate me on Kendrick Lamar?

[855] Because here's what's happened.

[856] I interviewed enough people who he is their favorite that I force myself to really go through the catalog.

[857] I found like five songs I now love and obsessed with.

[858] And I especially love when he's talking about addiction.

[859] He's like, he seems so uber honest and like rap 3 .0 where he's honest about anxiety.

[860] He's honest about depression.

[861] He's honest about being suicidal.

[862] He's a cool movement in hip hop that I hope is taking off.

[863] But who is he?

[864] Where does he come from?

[865] He's from Compton.

[866] I mean, I think he's a direct dissension from Tupac.

[867] He's in that same lane in that same vein, and he's also an extension of what hip hop has become.

[868] Because back in the day, you would never think that hip hop could ever win a Pulitzer Prize.

[869] Did he?

[870] Yeah, he won a fucking Pulitzer in 2017.

[871] What?

[872] I didn't know that either.

[873] Oh my gosh.

[874] I had no idea.

[875] For a song or an album?

[876] For an album, damn.

[877] He has this one song that is called The Blacker the Berry.

[878] Okay.

[879] I'm going to add it right now in front of you.

[880] This is exciting.

[881] It's an amazing song about the complexities of being black and living in this day and age where your rivals are other black men, but you also want to side with them against oppressive forces, and there's just so much going on.

[882] The first time I heard that song, I almost wanted to cry.

[883] It's just genius.

[884] Yeah, this isn't my place to observe, but I've observed it.

[885] This is where my Will Smith stuff, I felt really compassionate to him during this situation, which is the notion that you're never going to be white, and also you can be black and then not black enough, having less and less of a place to land.

[886] Yeah.

[887] It's so tiny the sliver you can occupy.

[888] On top of the already horrendous thing that you're only among 12 % of a population of a country, within that 12 % there's 63 strata within that you've got to figure out where you're at?

[889] If you think about it too much, your fucking mind will explode.

[890] I mean, there's almost no way to operate or live when you think about all the stuff that's messed up and fucked up and how you have to operate.

[891] This is a silly example, but I got here a little bit early for this interview.

[892] So I waited in my car for a little while outside, and I'm thinking in my head like, man, what are these people going to think that I'm doing in this neighborhood?

[893] Being a black person, just waiting for 15, 20 minutes.

[894] Like, that's the stuff that I have to think about in my head.

[895] Of course.

[896] You and I now drive down to Crenshaw.

[897] What happens when you get down there?

[898] I'm fine.

[899] You feel good.

[900] Yeah.

[901] That is funny that you bring that up about not wanting to call out other black people.

[902] if you're black.

[903] It is the Will Smith Chris Rock thing.

[904] Like, Chris Rock didn't say anything.

[905] Right.

[906] He didn't say anything like, yeah, that sucked.

[907] Probably because of, like, I'm not going against him.

[908] Well, I'm not going to tear down one of the few heroes we have.

[909] Yeah, even though I'm a direct recipient.

[910] I still feel like he's going to make like this crazy insane genius set off of that moment.

[911] Yeah, that's true.

[912] He will.

[913] And, like, we'll all get slapped by it.

[914] I agree with you.

[915] That's what's coming.

[916] his weird take on it where we learned so fucking much from his processing of it.

[917] Okay, Kendrick Lamar, clearly he's something special because, and this goes into a bigger observation I wanted to ask you about, which is the halftime show.

[918] I was like intermittently clapping and cheering and I was like crying.

[919] And again, I think it's the white trash wrong side of the tracks thing.

[920] I was like, these motherfuckers grew up in the shadow of this building and they just led with their heart.

[921] and now they own this whole fucking play.

[922] There was something so moving about that.

[923] Yeah, it's the grand story of turning something from nothing, right?

[924] Think about where we started out in the beginning of this conversation.

[925] It's neglected kids overlooked nothing to do in the Bronx.

[926] Now they're doing the Super Bowl halftime show.

[927] Yes, the biggest show in the world, and they completely own it, and it's 10 times better than anyone that came before it.

[928] And it says, we're an institution.

[929] That, to me, signaled.

[930] the permanence of hip hop.

[931] Was that a huge moment in the story?

[932] In the book, no, because the book was turning before that.

[933] Yeah, yeah.

[934] But I wanted to end with actually Kendrick's Pulitzer is basically where the book ended because that, to me, showed this amazing growth and now you have him being on the same standard as all these other people.

[935] But the point I made was that just as easily public enemy could have won it 30 years ago.

[936] Right.

[937] Well, that's what I think when I watched, I know you've heard me talk about it because you already knew I love Jay -Z, but when I watched that documentary on him, and I watched him sit there and listen to Kanye's beats here's my 10 beats and he's like I'll take six I'll take eight I'll take nine and he sits there sits there and then goes I'm ready and walks in there and does that there is no difference between that and then when Picasso used to make those drawings in 30 seconds after 40 years of doing it that old parable of him sketch a picture of a girl next to him on a napkin she said how much he said 50 ,000 well that only took you five seconds and he goes yeah but it took me 40 years to learn to do this in five seconds Seeing Jay -Z do that, I'm like, of legendary thinkers that lived on planet Earth, this dude is one of them.

[938] And he's alive right now, and he's doing his thing in front of everyone.

[939] And a lot of people are missing that.

[940] Some of my favorite stories from the book are people working with Jay -Z where he's just in that mind frame of just throwing a tennis ball up against a wall and thinking about three different songs at the same time.

[941] But it's not just three different songs.

[942] It's three different ways to say them and walking from one booth to the next to the next, knocking them all out.

[943] My favorite Jay -Z story, so like 10 years ago, I was at the Basketball Hall of Fame, and it was the end of a long night, and I finally got back to my hotel room, and I was really pissed off because I left my hotel key in the room.

[944] All I wanted to do was collapse and go to sleep, so I trudge all the way back down to the elevator.

[945] There's basically one big hotel in Springfield where everybody stays at for the Basketball Hall of Fame.

[946] So LeBron and a couple other people are in the elevator going down, and that's cool, right?

[947] Absolutely.

[948] How tiny did you feel?

[949] Very.

[950] I say what's up to them.

[951] You know, that's cool on its own.

[952] I go back down, I get my hotel key, I go back to the elevator.

[953] Going back up, Adam Silver is on the elevator.

[954] I'm embarrassed.

[955] I don't know who that is.

[956] Now he's the NBA commissioner.

[957] Oh, okay, okay.

[958] Before at that time, he was the deputy commissioner.

[959] But we built up a little bit of a relationship over time.

[960] And at that time, the big thing for the NBA was that they had spent years and years getting this arena in Brooklyn finally up.

[961] and it's about to open, and Jay -Z is about to open it with a set of concerts.

[962] He's a great guy, but he's very squarish, you know, very smart, bookish, white guy, went to Duke, and I go, Adam, are you going to go rock out at that Jay -Z concert next week?

[963] I was just joking.

[964] He's like, yeah, you want to go?

[965] Oh, my God.

[966] And in my head, I'm like, holy crap, he's probably not serious, but yeah, okay.

[967] The very next day, his secretary emails inviting me and my wife to set with him in some other NBA suits watching Jay -Z open up Barclay Center.

[968] So it's like Jay -Z at home for the first time, this arena he owns part of the team.

[969] It's around the corner from where he grew up on.

[970] This concert means so much to him.

[971] It's an amazing concert.

[972] We're sitting in a suite.

[973] And the funniest thing is that me and my wife really wanted to rock out, right?

[974] But we're with these people in like suits and ties.

[975] Nerds.

[976] We basically just nodded our heads for the whole time.

[977] We kept it all in.

[978] but it was really amazing to me, like, how serendipitous it was because it literally just happened because I left my hotel key.

[979] Yeah.

[980] That's Sim.

[981] LeBron on the way down and free Jay -Z tickets on the way out.

[982] Yeah, that's pretty good.

[983] You should have just ridden that fucking elevator over and over again.

[984] You've been a billionaire by the end of the day if you took 12 trips.

[985] But Jay -Z, so that documentary blew my mind and then also I was watching the Kanye documentary.

[986] Did you watch that?

[987] How many episodes that there's maybe three, four?

[988] I think I watched the first two.

[989] What do you thoughts on that?

[990] I thought it was good.

[991] I love anything that can crystallize somebody at a moment of time.

[992] And that's what his first two episodes did.

[993] First, I had just a ton of compassion for him.

[994] This guy worked at this.

[995] That's all he did.

[996] That's all he thought about.

[997] You couldn't catch him off the clock trying to break into this thing.

[998] And clearly a musical fucking savant, right?

[999] I mean, some of the most memorable tracks are his.

[1000] He's so gifted.

[1001] Also, he clearly has a lot going on, even at that early age.

[1002] It's not like fame or wealth.

[1003] or any of this stuff unhinged him, it was almost like he has been battling this thing.

[1004] He's always been this way.

[1005] And it's almost more of a miracle he could get through all of that to get where he got.

[1006] Does that compassion still stand knowing who he is now?

[1007] Yeah, I have a ton of compassion for him.

[1008] I think, you know, he has a very severe mental illness.

[1009] I know several people that are bipolar.

[1010] He seems to have a very, very strong case of bipolar, and he's honest about being bipolar.

[1011] My thing with him when he would act up in public and do crazy shit, my old excuse for him was this, that certain artists, look at all of them.

[1012] What makes them great artists is they see something we don't see.

[1013] They hear something we can't hear, and then they give it to us.

[1014] And so they are innately on a different wavelength than us, and that's uncomfortable.

[1015] It's great when they're creating music, but when they're sitting with you in a living room, they're on another wavelength.

[1016] And I think historically, the way artists have dealt with that is just by being addicts.

[1017] Look at Coltrane.

[1018] Look at Miles Davis.

[1019] Look at all these brilliant fucking jazz musicians.

[1020] Every one of them was a hardcore addict.

[1021] I think being that much of a visionary makes the rest of your life when you're not doing that thing really challenging.

[1022] And I think most people have just treated it with drugs.

[1023] And to me, Kanye was just a guy who was not treating it with drugs.

[1024] He's not an addict.

[1025] I'm watching that doc for all the clues.

[1026] He's not partying.

[1027] Like, he's at those parties.

[1028] but he's not an addict.

[1029] So he doesn't have a medicine.

[1030] That was my explanation, at least going into it.

[1031] And I think, too, when you're singularly focused in chasing this goal and doing it and it consumes you, you haven't thought about what happens in life once you reach it.

[1032] Yes.

[1033] It's one of the best cautionary tales of don't get to the top of the mountain.

[1034] Because I actually think, yes, his focus on that goal was so strong that it overpowered all the other stuff.

[1035] And I think without that, he's gotten himself into way more trouble.

[1036] It makes a lot of sense.

[1037] You can have compassion and still acknowledge he's done horrible stuff to people.

[1038] He's caused harm.

[1039] Both things can be true.

[1040] So I don't know what's happening currently.

[1041] Someone was at my house saying, are you following Kanye on Instagram?

[1042] And I don't follow Kanye on Instagram.

[1043] And he said, oh, well, he's been posting like every 20 seconds and he's saying stuff about Kim having diarrhea and all this.

[1044] I just can't enjoy it.

[1045] So I didn't even really want to hear what he was doing.

[1046] I think it's weird that we'd all observe as entertainment, his current ramp up, whatever state of mind he's in.

[1047] Is he done some really hurry?

[1048] No, but like there's a person on the other end of that, Kim.

[1049] I mean, they have a family.

[1050] That's a whole thing.

[1051] And he's done, you know, Taylor Swift, the name was rough.

[1052] Lots of things.

[1053] I mean, lots of thing after thing after thing after thing.

[1054] He has a really bad mental disease.

[1055] Yeah.

[1056] And you can have compassion for that.

[1057] And also, it's not okay to behave like that.

[1058] And I don't think anyone thinks it is, though.

[1059] I don't know.

[1060] It is really hard to reconcile where he is now and that person who did college dropout.

[1061] I'll be late for that.

[1062] That's one of my favorite songs of all time.

[1063] I got to check out who he sampled on that because the music on I'll be late for that.

[1064] Oh, so good.

[1065] Oh.

[1066] But anyways, Jay -Z, he has every element of it.

[1067] Have you heard Jay -Z on the latest DJ Khalid song where he goes for like four or five minutes?

[1068] No. It's just so impressive.

[1069] Really?

[1070] It only came out a couple weeks ago.

[1071] But just like I love the imagery of somebody who can just paint pictures in four minutes of that.

[1072] Brush the snow off my cold Tim's lines like that.

[1073] There's songs of his I've loved and I'm totally missing the references.

[1074] Like I know the lyrics.

[1075] But then I'll be watching Godfather 2 and I'm like, oh my God, that's a Godfather 2.

[1076] two reference, too much flossing, too much Sam Ross, our casino, should have stayed in food and beverage.

[1077] These are like deep fucking references that after the, I've already loved the song for years, I figure out what the fuck he's talking about.

[1078] He has a lot from Goodfellas, too.

[1079] Yeah, yeah.

[1080] What are the top three stories you got from interviewing people about anyone?

[1081] That's a good question.

[1082] Or top two.

[1083] So for me, rather than the stories, I think the interviews really stuck out in my head.

[1084] I remember talking to Kulmodee, and Kulmodee is somebody who was there at the beginning of hip -hop, but he's had a career that's really expanded throughout generations.

[1085] And number one, trying to get artists to talk for a book that's going to come out in four or five years, that didn't have the best success rate, right?

[1086] And rappers don't exactly keep nine to five hours.

[1087] So whenever I got a big interview, like I was so.

[1088] happy for days.

[1089] In Cool Mo Deep was really expansive and illuminative and knew his place in hip hop had really contemplated hip hop's place in this country.

[1090] He didn't boycott the 1988 Grammys when the rest of hip hop did.

[1091] People like Will Smith and Public Enemy and other groups did because they weren't going to show it on TV.

[1092] But his whole point was that, hey, we're shooting ourselves in our foot here because if we're on TV even a little bit and we don't boycott it, we can get our message out.

[1093] We didn't even talk about this.

[1094] We're not.

[1095] unified.

[1096] So that was a big thing, him having basically the integrity to stand up to that when they hadn't really talked about it before.

[1097] And he had so many other nuggets and so much knowledge to drop.

[1098] There's only been a couple times in my life when I'd be like, damn, I'm talking to the smartest person I've ever talked to.

[1099] Yeah.

[1100] And before this book, I did an oral history on the show The Wire.

[1101] Oh, no kidding.

[1102] Yeah, that was the last book I did.

[1103] And one of the creators for The Wire, his name is Ed Burns.

[1104] And a lot of the show is based on off of him.

[1105] He was a Baltimore policeman.

[1106] He was a teacher in middle school in Baltimore for a long time.

[1107] And he's now basically just this curmudgeony guy.

[1108] He hates television.

[1109] He hates writing scripts and dealing with executives.

[1110] But he's pondered basically everything in life.

[1111] He has answers for everything, but basically nobody will listen to him.

[1112] So he's really dismayed about the world.

[1113] And talking to him, it was like, this guy is just the smartest person ever.

[1114] And I got that same vibe from when I talked to Cool Modib.

[1115] So we get this occasionally, we've talked about this.

[1116] It's happened like a handful of times in five years where it's like you're talking to someone and all of a sudden it occurs to you.

[1117] Oh, they know the whole picture.

[1118] It's a biologist, but yet he knows economy, he knows evolution, he knows all these things or she and they have the whole picture in their mind.

[1119] When you recognize it in somebody, it's pretty all -inspiring.

[1120] It is.

[1121] I've spent my whole life doing interviews.

[1122] And in my head, when I'm talking to somebody and I hear, this is a quote I need it for the story, it's almost like a ding, ding, ding.

[1123] Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

[1124] It goes off in my head.

[1125] And it was just like that throughout the whole interview where you just leave the interview just feeling lifted, like you're looking at life at a whole different perspective.

[1126] And conversations can sometimes do that.

[1127] Yeah.

[1128] That's so cool.

[1129] To me, the halftime show was really, really seminal.

[1130] Obviously, that polter, which I didn't even know about, of course, like how legitimized can you get?

[1131] Yeah, that's it.

[1132] Unless they give someone a Nobel at some point.

[1133] That's like a quote in the book, is that that's next.

[1134] Yeah.

[1135] It speaks to the evolution of the country, too, that that happened.

[1136] Where, like you said, it could have happened before, but the rest of the country was not ready for it.

[1137] There's one person to me that embolizes that entire history of hip -hop and that Snoop Dog.

[1138] Like, what's your take on Snoop Dog?

[1139] So my kids go to school down the street at a public school, and I was looking at their home.

[1140] when they came home it was a printout it was an outline of snoop's face and the section that they were working on that week was the history of hip hop and they have yes and they were yeah and like the printout was snoop wow and i was like oh man that's where we're at my little girls are learning the importance of snoop dog as they should as like you learn about beat poets or you learn about any literature tradition we've created in this country.

[1141] Like, it's happening.

[1142] I mean, granted, they're in L .A. in a progressive charter school, but still.

[1143] We talk about Jay -Z being the evolution of hip -hop and what it can do, but you have to throw Snoop right in there, right?

[1144] Yes.

[1145] Like, this was a guy who in the early 1990s was facing charges for murder, and now he's best friends with Martha Stewart.

[1146] I look at him, and I'm just in awe of an example of a human being that was always truthful to themselves.

[1147] and everyone caught up with it.

[1148] It's like he never really bended.

[1149] He's all the things.

[1150] He's got more street cred than any of them.

[1151] He was tried for murder.

[1152] He was in a gang.

[1153] He's seen every gnarly side of every situation.

[1154] And he loves kids and he coaches football.

[1155] And he's on this singing contest where he's lovable and likable.

[1156] And he's friends with Martha Stewart.

[1157] And yet he has an Instagram that's still super authentic.

[1158] Like he posts shit, I can't post.

[1159] I'd be gone if I posted what Snoop Dogg is.

[1160] He's just this incredible example of something.

[1161] someone who was always themselves.

[1162] He allowed himself to be playful and fun and carefree, and he didn't worry if people were like, why are you hanging with Martha Stewart?

[1163] There's something about him that I think the whole thing could be distilled down into just one person.

[1164] There is.

[1165] And back in the mid -90s when he was in that whole death row, East Coast, West Coast thing, he actually left Los Angeles for a little while and went to New Orleans and he was with no limit.

[1166] So people really forget about where he was at one point of his life to now become almost.

[1167] like an American sweetheart type of person.

[1168] He's like Mr. Rogers.

[1169] He's like hip -hop Mr. Rogers.

[1170] After listening to you guys for so much, I have another question, okay?

[1171] And I have theories on this.

[1172] How do you think you guys would have been as journalists?

[1173] And do you think that's a job that you guys would have ever tried to go for when you were younger?

[1174] Dax.

[1175] Monica, please.

[1176] Yeah, I think I would have loved that because I do love talking to people.

[1177] But I think where I would have made, maybe some trouble is being totally objective in my reporting.

[1178] I am obsessed with justice.

[1179] I have all these personal things that I have going on in my head where I'm like, that's wrong, or I'm the sheriff.

[1180] And so I don't know that I could truthfully observe.

[1181] Although I feel like I've gotten much better over the course of this show, seeing all angles.

[1182] What do you think?

[1183] I have almost the same answer, which is I would have loved to have been one.

[1184] I also was a writer from a young age, so I knew I wanted to write.

[1185] So it was in my, if any one of these five things panned out, I'll be a happy person.

[1186] Journalism was in there.

[1187] But like you, I think I'd have been a terrible journalist because I'm too fucking opinionated.

[1188] I'd be a bad scientist.

[1189] I'd be wanting to get this story out of someone that I already kind of thought I was going to get out of them.

[1190] How do you check yourself against that?

[1191] Just minimally, if you're interested in something, there's a reason you're interested.

[1192] You have an opinion about it.

[1193] You're not going to do a book on Tupperware.

[1194] You probably have no opinion on it other than it seems to keep.

[1195] I'm guessing.

[1196] Tupperware is fascinating.

[1197] It is.

[1198] I think sports is a little bit different.

[1199] And especially in school, they really knocked that out of you.

[1200] You've got to be objective.

[1201] You've got to be objective.

[1202] I grew up the biggest Lakers fan and the biggest Dodgers fan.

[1203] And I can remember the 2010 finals.

[1204] It was Boston against the Lakers.

[1205] Garnett had gone there.

[1206] Garnett was there.

[1207] Yeah.

[1208] It was Kobe.

[1209] It went to game seven.

[1210] And I was at game seven of that series.

[1211] And I was literally thinking, I don't care who wins.

[1212] I just want the game to end quickly so I can file my story.

[1213] They really stomp that out of you.

[1214] I feel like it's coming back a little bit.

[1215] You weren't rooting for the Lakers in that moment.

[1216] No. And I feel like it's come back a little bit in recent years.

[1217] I don't really cover baseball so I can watch the Dodgers for fun now again.

[1218] But they really stamped that out of you in journalism school.

[1219] Oh, wow.

[1220] My theory is that Monica would have been a great journalist, Dex.

[1221] I don't feel like you could have gotten over it.

[1222] But you guys, you guys asked really, really good questions.

[1223] That's the thing that I've been really, really impressed.

[1224] The Monica Lewinsky interview that you guys did, you go into an interview and you know that you need to ask somebody certain questions, and there's a fine line to walk between being really careful and respectful about it, and you guys over and over again, because I'm actually like a legitimate fan of your podcast.

[1225] It's so flattering.

[1226] This is like me being on, like, cereal, right?

[1227] You don't imagine going on your favorite podcast.

[1228] But you guys are able to walk that line really, really good.

[1229] good.

[1230] And you could hear in her voice.

[1231] She sat down as she was immediately comfortable.

[1232] That's so flattering and nice.

[1233] So this is my Achilles.

[1234] It's the sword.

[1235] So I think what helps in those is that I'm happy to tell you about me in my struggles, in my failings, in my embarrassments.

[1236] So I think that's what makes people generally feel safe.

[1237] But then in doing so, I talk about myself so much and it's nauseating.

[1238] I want with everything I have in my being to make you feel comfortable and relate to you.

[1239] And so that wouldn't make for a good journalist, journalist.

[1240] I would probably, though, also have a hard time doing a piece that was critical and should be critical.

[1241] You hear I'm talking about Kanye.

[1242] He probably deserves some good article that tells you the truth about it, right?

[1243] But I would have a hard time, I don't want to say skewering somebody, but some people need to get skewered and that's the job of the press as well.

[1244] That would be the part I would have a hard time with.

[1245] How have you handle those?

[1246] Do you feel ethically like it's hard?

[1247] Has it broken your heart to gain someone's trust and then have to ultimately write something that's pretty negative?

[1248] There are different types of journalism.

[1249] There's stuff that I do, which is news stories and feature stories and not having my opinion into something.

[1250] And then columnist, it's opinion -filled pieces, basically.

[1251] So what I do is different from that.

[1252] I feel like if I'm going to write a hard story, as long as it's the truth, and as long as I'm putting forward facts and I'm not messing up anybody's quotes, I can live with myself.

[1253] If it's a tough story, you can always go back to were you truthful?

[1254] Were you honest?

[1255] Did you mislead anybody?

[1256] Yeah.

[1257] You're almost like a lawyer in that way.

[1258] Oh, if I wasn't taking swimming classes and tennis at USC, I think there's so many failed journalists who are lawyers and fell lawyers who are journalists.

[1259] It's almost interchangeable.

[1260] Okay, the come up, an oral history of the rise of hip hop, Two questions.

[1261] Don't you think that this thing at my daughter's school should not be an anomaly, that it should be in the exact same echelon as we're studying Hemingway as one of our great writers?

[1262] Eventually, hip hop is still so young.

[1263] It's about to celebrate his 50 -year anniversary where you look at these compositions at Beethoven.

[1264] You know, how many hundreds of years old is that?

[1265] I want it to be well studied, and I think it eventually will.

[1266] It just may need some more time to really round itself out because hip hop is still evolving.

[1267] Yeah.

[1268] You know, it's something that's always young and always evolving and the youngest generation is always going to be steering that ship.

[1269] Yeah.

[1270] But this book could find its way quite easily into a college curriculum.

[1271] Yes, several.

[1272] Yeah.

[1273] Let's get them out there.

[1274] I'm sure.

[1275] This is going to be taught.

[1276] I think that's wild.

[1277] Chuck Klosterman, he's a great author.

[1278] He used to be at Grantland, and he told me that the way to find your next book is to go inside a bookstore, spend time there looking at titles.

[1279] think of the book that you want to see that's not there.

[1280] And then that's your next book.

[1281] I like that.

[1282] Really great advice.

[1283] Yeah.

[1284] Well, I think someone with your background and your skill, writing a book like this, literally perpetuates it further into that zone.

[1285] This country's defined by this genre globally now.

[1286] In the ashes of the shittiness, this comes out of it.

[1287] I just think it's such an incredible triumph, not to sound pandering, but that's what gets me into hip -hop.

[1288] I just love that.

[1289] You listen to Ice Cube's lyrics.

[1290] There's zero opportunity.

[1291] And this thing is just created against all odds with no resources, with no training, with no nothing.

[1292] And it just becomes as big as rock and roll will be in America's history.

[1293] That's the story of hip -hop.

[1294] That's why we ended up calling it the come -up.

[1295] It's because it was absolutely taking nothing and transforming it into something.

[1296] Do we need to acknowledge how misogynistic it is or where it started and where it's now evolving to?

[1297] Like, is that relevant?

[1298] Will people be made?

[1299] mad we didn't acknowledge and it used to be really pretty bonkers misogynistic.

[1300] Did we acknowledge it at all with that ghetto boys lyric?

[1301] Right, exactly, exactly.

[1302] I think that's the whole duality of hip -hop where it can be so beautiful and political and there's different strands of it, right?

[1303] So you can find your own lane, I think, whichever one you want to be in.

[1304] The misogynistic views, I mean, it's still, I can't even say that it's clear.

[1305] Like it's still definitely present.

[1306] Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[1307] It's a reflection of society, too.

[1308] Society has evolved in these ways.

[1309] So it's going to feel like there's less because we're talking about it more.

[1310] You're starting with a group of people, men, who have been systematically emasculated specifically.

[1311] And in the wake of deep amasculation, I think you see people being tough physically.

[1312] I think you see displays of wealth that.

[1313] help you feel less emasculated, I think women bear the brunt of that, that that's a declaration of masculinity at times.

[1314] I think to say it's not the result of this very historic systematic emasculation of a whole group of people would not be truthful.

[1315] If you just wanted to write it off as misogynistic, I think that you're willfully ignoring what would have caused anyone to try to be ultra -masculine.

[1316] I don't know if I would use emasculation.

[1317] I think I would use denigrating me. More so, because I think if you look at rappers, like if you don't know that you're being emasculated, which for a lot of rappers or somebody who's growing up in that type of environment, they're not trying to be lawyers.

[1318] They aren't the icons that they see.

[1319] The icons or the people driving flashy cars are going to be the drug dealers or the athletes or other people like that.

[1320] So I don't know if they necessarily even know that.

[1321] Does that make sense?

[1322] It does.

[1323] There's things you know, but that you don't know as well.

[1324] Yeah.

[1325] Let's go back where your wife could be taken directly from you by the plantation owner.

[1326] Like, there's a deep emasculation there.

[1327] Well, even like you're owned.

[1328] You're owned.

[1329] And then your women are being abused.

[1330] You have no say so in it.

[1331] And then you're forbidden to own a home.

[1332] You're forbidden to own a home and then pass on wealth to your children.

[1333] There's a cotrillion things that happen along the way that the way this country defines a man. As a man is someone who grows up, provides for his family, buys a house, and passes that on.

[1334] that's trickling in on some level.

[1335] Growing up for me, you know, being a man was all that stuff aside, which is important as you grow up.

[1336] But just when you're in your teens and approaching your 20s, it's, are you physical?

[1337] Can you beat up somebody?

[1338] Can you play sports well?

[1339] Those type of things are the things I think about masculinity and being emasculated and things like that.

[1340] Yeah.

[1341] Where I grew up is hyper.

[1342] Are we dancing, by the way?

[1343] Yeah, we're having fun.

[1344] This is a dance.

[1345] Well, I grew up, the normal markers of status weren't available.

[1346] Everyone was broke.

[1347] No one had nice cars.

[1348] No one graduated from a nice college.

[1349] No one even went to college.

[1350] We're all going to try to figure out where we're at status -wise.

[1351] So if no one's achieving any financial status or educational status, that leaves who can you knock out at the movie theater?

[1352] For us, at least that's how it materialized in my little blue -collar hillbilly town.

[1353] I see these other pockets of people that I can.

[1354] come to know and it's like they were great golfers maybe they were in honor society or in these things it seemed like there were ways to get status that weren't whose ass could you kick it seemed like there were more options for different people than what i saw yeah you probably feel limited after you learn about them but i'm thinking about being in the moment when you don't know that those options are there so how are you judging and defining yourself as a man right and when i grew up in the 80s where I grew up, it was how many girls could you sleep with, and whose ass could you kick?

[1355] Yeah.

[1356] You know, and hopefully if you could make money at some point, but that was such a crapshoot.

[1357] And I feel like those type of virtues or goals transcends race.

[1358] I do too, but I do think they disproportionately affect lower income people.

[1359] Oh, without a doubt.

[1360] For sure.

[1361] We danced.

[1362] Who's your number one?

[1363] Mine's Jay -Z.

[1364] No, Tupac.

[1365] Yeah.

[1366] Oh, Tupac.

[1367] Still.

[1368] Yeah.

[1369] I'll give you five real quick.

[1370] It'll be Tupac, Biggie, Jay -Z, Nas, and Rockham.

[1371] Okay.

[1372] Tell me why Nas is great.

[1373] At that time, every hip -hop artist basically just went with one producer to do their entire album.

[1374] But he comes out and he gets this New York super team of producers.

[1375] So he gets Pete Rock and he gets DJ Premiere and he gets all these different producers to basically do one song.

[1376] So the music is just out of this world at that time.

[1377] Then it's also him crystallizing what he's seeing on this project block coming out of the crack cocaine era in New York and it's just vivid.

[1378] It's painting images with words after words.

[1379] If there's a perfect album, it's that one.

[1380] What album?

[1381] Illmatic.

[1382] Okay, I'm adding that right now too.

[1383] Sorry, Michael.

[1384] Let me just get a lot of homework.

[1385] And Rakim is me and Eric being a nice big plate of fish, which is my favorite dish.

[1386] But without the money, it's still a wish.

[1387] That Rakhan?

[1388] Yep.

[1389] Rockin, follow the leader.

[1390] You did pretty good.

[1391] You only wrapped like three times.

[1392] I know.

[1393] And I want to do that whole song and I just literally choked it back into my head because that was my brother and I were fucking saying that to each other all the time I used to roll up roll up this is a holdup ain't nothing funny stop okay everyone should read the come up in oral history of the rise of hip hop I think it's so cool that you set out to put this all down for us the full history all the different pockets Philadelphia we didn't talk about you but you're in there don't worry Riverside.

[1394] Well, that gets a parental advisory story.

[1395] The Bronx, Inglewood, New Jersey.

[1396] It's all in the book.

[1397] I want everyone to check it out.

[1398] And if you love hip -hop, you're going to love reading the full history of it.

[1399] And incredible interviews with Ice Tea, Ice Cube, Marley Marl, Bun B, Grandmaster Cause, Killer Mike, DMC, so many more.

[1400] Last question.

[1401] Anderson Pack.

[1402] I've gotten a lot of fights with people.

[1403] I've declared him, Our Prince.

[1404] What do you think about Anderson Pack?

[1405] I'll be honest, I'm not up on my Anderson back.

[1406] Okay.

[1407] He had one amazing song with Andre 3 ,000.

[1408] Mm -hmm.

[1409] Yeah.

[1410] I love that song.

[1411] Can he be considered straight hip -hop?

[1412] I think, yeah.

[1413] That's a good question.

[1414] I wonder what he would say.

[1415] I do, too.

[1416] You got to acknowledge, though, at the halftime show, oh, at the end, all of a sudden, we realized that motherfucker's been playing drums the whole time.

[1417] The funny thing was that I was in Beijing when the Super Bowl happened because I was covering the Winter Olympics.

[1418] I forget how I even managed to watch it, but I think it came on at like 7 in the morning in Beijing.

[1419] Oh, my God.

[1420] Okay, Jonathan Abrams.

[1421] Everyone check out the come up.

[1422] Thanks so much.

[1423] We're really flattered that you are an armchair.

[1424] Yeah.

[1425] You're in the fucking Jordan chair seat shirt, which is a rare one.

[1426] I know.

[1427] I don't exist anymore.

[1428] Oldie but a goodie.

[1429] Limited a dish.

[1430] Wish you a ton of luck, and I hope we get to talk to you again.

[1431] Anytime, guys.

[1432] Bye.

[1433] Stay tuned for more armchair expert if you dare.

[1434] And now my favorite part of the show, the fact check with my soulmate Monica Padman.

[1435] I am so sorry.

[1436] That's my biggest egregious.

[1437] It was an accident.

[1438] Right, but it was my biggest late ever.

[1439] I'm sorry.

[1440] It was really fine.

[1441] Do you have an activity that this happens to you?

[1442] Editing maybe?

[1443] Sometimes happens to me editing.

[1444] Mm -hmm.

[1445] Where you get lost in time.

[1446] Yeah, for sure.

[1447] 40 minutes went by.

[1448] I got back from dropping the girls off at like 8 .35.

[1449] I'm like, I'm going to write till 925, and then I'm going to work out, hopefully, before this.

[1450] Uh -huh.

[1451] So when I just looked at my phone, I looked and I was like, oh, good, 1023.

[1452] I can probably get my legs in before I go up there.

[1453] And then I was like, wait, 1023, and then I looked at my messages and I had one from you.

[1454] So, yeah, I lost one hour.

[1455] But that's kind of fun.

[1456] That means you wrote for a long time.

[1457] It would be fun if there was no collateral damage.

[1458] But the fact that you guys were sitting here waiting for me, I apologize.

[1459] It's okay.

[1460] Okay.

[1461] Were you in a flow?

[1462] Yeah, I was writing this story about a snow day one time.

[1463] I was in second grade and I was in our living room, which was kind of a basement, a tri -level.

[1464] I was trying to watch Green Acres.

[1465] We had rabbit ears.

[1466] Zero signal.

[1467] Oh.

[1468] So I was just watching it through static and then zebra stripes and everything.

[1469] And then I just heard the door open and my brother goes, Dax, get your snow pants on.

[1470] You're fighting.

[1471] Oh, boy.

[1472] Okay.

[1473] And I was like, okay.

[1474] And so I got all my snow gear on.

[1475] You're just trying to watch green acres.

[1476] Well, mostly primary goes always to make my brother think I'm old and cool.

[1477] Let him just want, let him.

[1478] I know.

[1479] He just needs to let you watch your TV show.

[1480] I know.

[1481] So, and I remember thinking, well, he wouldn't be scheduling me a fight I'm going to lose.

[1482] He wasn't like a masochistic brother, right?

[1483] Right.

[1484] So I figured whoever I was going outside to fight, he had at least assessed I was going to win.

[1485] Well, I got out there and there was like eight or nine kids.

[1486] And because it was a snow day, there were random kids there that weren't from my neighborhood.

[1487] Okay.

[1488] It was scatty wampas on snow days.

[1489] Okay.

[1490] I compared it in my writing to like when there's a natural disaster and people have to evacuate.

[1491] And they're in a town, not at work with a bunch of strangers.

[1492] I see.

[1493] That was kind of snow days.

[1494] Oh, wow.

[1495] People were leaving their neighborhoods and whatnot.

[1496] Sure.

[1497] Yeah.

[1498] So there were like, let's say nine kids out there.

[1499] Okay.

[1500] And then my brother just said, Kenny, this is Dax.

[1501] This is Kenny.

[1502] Ken Kennedy?

[1503] No. Oh, you've never fought Ken Kennedy, right?

[1504] I would never.

[1505] I'd fight a bear to protect Ken Kennedy.

[1506] But Kenny was a kid from their grade.

[1507] Oh, God.

[1508] Yes.

[1509] If I was in second grade, he would have been an eighth grader.

[1510] Wait, what?

[1511] Yes, but he was much smaller than the other kids.

[1512] Okay.

[1513] And so this was my opponent.

[1514] Okay, hold on.

[1515] Yeah, yeah.

[1516] What happens?

[1517] Okay, while you're watching Green Acres, what is happening?

[1518] outside.

[1519] Is the kid being a rascal?

[1520] And then David's like, my brother's going to fight you.

[1521] I'm totally guessing.

[1522] I'd have to call David and ask how this was scheduled.

[1523] But my hunch was, I hate to say that this is my hunch, but we're talking about, you know, 13 -year -old boys.

[1524] Yeah.

[1525] I think probably because he was smaller.

[1526] I doubt they wrestled Kenny.

[1527] I bet it was said, I bet you couldn't even beat up Dax.

[1528] Oh, okay.

[1529] That seems most logical, doesn't it?

[1530] Yeah.

[1531] And then he said, yes, I could.

[1532] Your second -grade.

[1533] brother right and I'm tiptoeing around this one I write because I don't want to make David out to be a villain or myself but it is the reality of Oxford Acres in 1982 at that point oh I wasn't even born you weren't even a born yet but he introduced us and then he goes let's go and oh my god I said hi and Kenny said hi I remember thinking he was nice oh no yes and then And I remember as we were, like, getting into position when I looked at him, what felt clear was that, oh, he's never wrestled anyone.

[1534] Whereas I had at that point had wrestled David really conservatively over 500 times.

[1535] We wrestled every day.

[1536] He wrestled me to the ground, pinned me, and spit in my face.

[1537] So I was just completely numb to all that.

[1538] Yeah.

[1539] Well, okay, I'll wrestle.

[1540] I was pretty calm, and I think Kenny kind of detected that.

[1541] And so I saw that Kenny was pretty nervous as weird.

[1542] So I actually thought like, oh, my God, I might win this.

[1543] And then we came together and we're on full snow gear, right?

[1544] Right.

[1545] So I compared it to two bubbles when they join in the air with two soap bubbles.

[1546] So the collision probably had zero noise.

[1547] Yeah.

[1548] And then we fell down into the deep snow.

[1549] And then the snow was like the third person in the fight.

[1550] Right.

[1551] And hats were coming off.

[1552] And I lost a glove.

[1553] And then, you know, there was just this very.

[1554] clear moment where I was able to get him in a headlock, which I could never get my brother in a headlock.

[1555] He always was getting me in a headlock.

[1556] And I knew once you had someone in a headlock, that was...

[1557] How does it end?

[1558] Does someone say, like, I surrender?

[1559] Yeah, so once the headlock was in place, your opponent has to now dedicate both their hands to getting out of the headlock, right?

[1560] They start grabbing your forearm.

[1561] And then they now have nothing to stabilize himself.

[1562] So then I was able to spin like a crocodile.

[1563] And then I was on top of them.

[1564] Then I let cutting him out of the headlock grabbed his wrist and then I got my knees on his on his shoulders.

[1565] Okay.

[1566] And then he goes, okay, I quit.

[1567] I quit.

[1568] And then that's how they worked.

[1569] And so he quit.

[1570] Wow.

[1571] Yeah, so I was trying to go through every step of that whole experience.

[1572] Wow, wow, wow.

[1573] So different.

[1574] Okay, well, one, it's a bit homoerotic.

[1575] Like, this, like, kind of, like rolling around and clothes are coming off.

[1576] It's a little homerotic, which is interesting because it's all these, like, tough guys.

[1577] They want to fight and improve their masculinity.

[1578] And they're just, like, rolling around on each other and, like, exchanging spit and stuff.

[1579] Sure, sure, yeah.

[1580] So that's interesting.

[1581] It's intimate.

[1582] Extremely.

[1583] Yeah, almost more intimate than lovemaking.

[1584] I wouldn't know, but yeah.

[1585] But you're probably touching more parts of your body on it.

[1586] Exactly.

[1587] Even in lovemaking.

[1588] Right.

[1589] So that's interesting.

[1590] Let's set that aside.

[1591] Okay, I'm putting that.

[1592] Putting that over there And then I'm like inclined to be like Oh my God boys But it is not all boys Because my brother didn't do that Yeah I mean he had like friends He had like boys over But they like played video games I bet they wrestled a bit I never had a group of friends That didn't wrestle each other Not mean Like what happened in the front yard Was Warner the guys of a fight Yeah Like two strangers Just met Yeah Like even Aaron and I Best friends.

[1593] We wrestled three, four times a week.

[1594] I know.

[1595] Our entire friendship up until we're in our 20s.

[1596] Right.

[1597] I'm just more curious.

[1598] I'm like, is this more ubiquitous or is it regional?

[1599] Yeah.

[1600] Rob, did you?

[1601] Is it timestamped?

[1602] Russell?

[1603] There were fights in our neighborhood, yeah.

[1604] That you participated?

[1605] But did you wrestle your friends for fun?

[1606] Yeah.

[1607] Oh, wow.

[1608] And I bet if you watch Calvin, like Calvin probably already tumbles around a little bit.

[1609] Well, he's not big enough.

[1610] Does he have any buddies that he?

[1611] No. He's pretty soft.

[1612] Okay.

[1613] Well, he's a great dancer.

[1614] Yeah.

[1615] He's much sweeter.

[1616] He's investing in different things.

[1617] Yes.

[1618] Well, that's, but it could be regional.

[1619] Also, Chicago and Michigan, like that.

[1620] So maybe.

[1621] It's impossible for me to know, right?

[1622] Is it the 80s?

[1623] Right.

[1624] Is it, yeah, is it blue -collar Michigan?

[1625] Maybe it was in, like, my group of peers in my neighborhood.

[1626] Maybe there were other kids in the neighborhood that weren't doing that.

[1627] Right.

[1628] I can't possibly know.

[1629] Well, I will say this.

[1630] I was so much bigger than everyone.

[1631] Like, I told you, comically bigger.

[1632] Like, all the teachers thought I had flunked several grades.

[1633] Right.

[1634] I looked like a dumb, right?

[1635] Well, and I wasn't.

[1636] I couldn't read and stuff.

[1637] Well, no, this is just the fact.

[1638] Well, no, you weren't a dumb dumb.

[1639] So my first best friend in elementary was Clay Smaids.

[1640] Right.

[1641] I know, the fish.

[1642] Yeah, the fish.

[1643] And his brother was five years older than him.

[1644] And the red sex.

[1645] No, the...

[1646] Oh, putting the washcloth over my face.

[1647] Yeah.

[1648] Yes, yes, yes.

[1649] Oh, God, I got to earmark that to put in this.

[1650] Yeah, the sweeter side of boys.

[1651] But he was tough as nails.

[1652] And so we wrestled all the time.

[1653] Right.

[1654] And it was competitive.

[1655] Like, it's not fun unless it's kind of competitive.

[1656] Yeah.

[1657] But I guess for me, I just see it as like any game two people would play.

[1658] Yeah.

[1659] Spades.

[1660] Clay Spades.

[1661] Clay Spades.

[1662] Smaid Spades, his tournament.

[1663] But yeah, like, I don't know if you played video games against somebody or you had.

[1664] Mario Park.

[1665] Basketball.

[1666] It's just kind of another way to compete.

[1667] For sure.

[1668] Logically, I understand.

[1669] I just didn't see that.

[1670] You didn't see boys grappling all the time?

[1671] I didn't.

[1672] Well, that would happen, like, in the middle of games, too.

[1673] We'd play, like, football.

[1674] Sure.

[1675] And then there'd be an argument.

[1676] Well, that makes...

[1677] Yeah, yeah.

[1678] That, I guess makes more sense to me. Now, what I do think was probably unique to my area was there was also...

[1679] It was like one of the moments I'm in such awe of my brother.

[1680] Because he was small for his age.

[1681] And his best buddy was Dan Dopporello.

[1682] Uh -huh.

[1683] And Dan Apparello was, like, on a traveling hockey team.

[1684] And the hockey players are fucking strong and are tough.

[1685] Yeah.

[1686] And he was much bigger than David.

[1687] And I don't know what falling out they had.

[1688] But Dan challenged him to a fight.

[1689] It was, like, scheduled.

[1690] Oh, God.

[1691] And it was, like, meet at five at the beach in my neighborhood.

[1692] Oh, wow.

[1693] I wasn't there.

[1694] Okay.

[1695] But David came riding home on his bicycle.

[1696] And he had lost, you know.

[1697] His shirt was ripped and he was sad.

[1698] and he had like a friend with him.

[1699] Oh, no. And I felt so bad for him.

[1700] But I was so impressed he showed up.

[1701] Yeah.

[1702] Like David had no business meeting Dandaparlla at the beach for this fight.

[1703] Right.

[1704] But he did.

[1705] Oh.

[1706] I'm so proud of him.

[1707] I really am.

[1708] I could cry just thinking about it.

[1709] I really could.

[1710] Like, I don't know where he found the heart to do that.

[1711] Well, he probably felt like if I don't show up, I'll lose my status.

[1712] status, like integrity.

[1713] Yeah.

[1714] Or not integrity, but like.

[1715] It's a tough guy card.

[1716] I guess, yeah.

[1717] He would have been a wimp.

[1718] That's just what he would have been if he didn't show up.

[1719] But even with that as an incentive, I'm still blown away.

[1720] He rode his, I just think about how long that bike ride was to the beach.

[1721] Like, there's a long bike ride to the beach.

[1722] And he had to be thinking, I'm going to get killed.

[1723] And I'm going to keep riding.

[1724] And I'm going to go.

[1725] And I'm going to do this.

[1726] Yeah.

[1727] I want to see it was even raining.

[1728] I see him as he was wet.

[1729] and he had a strange new friend with him that I kind of escorted him home post -fight playing a nurturing boy Yeah The Michigan version of Monica This whole thing Yeah exactly He really liked He liked that David was all hurt Maybe You're going to throw up But it probably was He might throw up on his ride home I should be there Child dynamics are They're ruthless So yeah I bet some kid who probably had wanted to be friends with David, but David already had to end up.

[1730] Saw that he had been defeated.

[1731] And I was like, oh, now is the time for me to escort him home and show some, yeah, some compassion and stuff.

[1732] Now, when you think about these stories.

[1733] Yeah.

[1734] Now that you're old, sir.

[1735] Uh -huh.

[1736] Old.

[1737] Okay.

[1738] Successful.

[1739] Uh -huh.

[1740] An artist.

[1741] Oh, wow.

[1742] Okay.

[1743] Keep going.

[1744] When you look back, do you still get excited about that?

[1745] Or, like, can you see, oh, wow, that was...

[1746] That story I just told you about meeting the kid.

[1747] That story is met in my mind with total relief.

[1748] Like, relief that I showed up, relief that I didn't lose.

[1749] Yeah.

[1750] Relief.

[1751] You feel like these fights built your character.

[1752] In some way, I think they did.

[1753] Yeah.

[1754] Which is interesting.

[1755] Well, it's also interesting.

[1756] And maybe this sounds like I'm trying to have my cake and eat it too.

[1757] But I can tell you, I never had ire towards anyone.

[1758] Like, I didn't, I wasn't angry.

[1759] A lot of these kids that fought, like the kid who challenged me into a fight, he fought all the time.

[1760] He challenged kids to fights all the time.

[1761] That wasn't me. Like, I wasn't angry.

[1762] Yeah.

[1763] I wasn't emotional during it.

[1764] It was just like, oh, I got to do this.

[1765] It was a challenge.

[1766] If I don't do this, I'm weak.

[1767] Right.

[1768] But that, I mean, that has emotion under it, but yeah.

[1769] Yeah.

[1770] But I wasn't like, I'm going to go kick that fucking kid's ass.

[1771] Right.

[1772] I wasn't that kid.

[1773] For the amount of fights I was in, I wasn't that kid.

[1774] This is consistent with my whole life, right?

[1775] Like, I'm out in the dunes.

[1776] I don't share anything politically with all the dudes I'm riding dirt bikes with.

[1777] I just am always in these worlds where it's like, I don't fit, but I'm interested in the thing.

[1778] And so I think it was consistent with that pattern.

[1779] Yeah.

[1780] I also didn't have any other hustle back then, right?

[1781] Because I was terrible at school.

[1782] Right.

[1783] And I wasn't an athlete or anything.

[1784] So you're a thing.

[1785] Yeah, I was big and I was tough.

[1786] I was supposed to be the toughest in my grade.

[1787] And that kind of came with you had to defend that occasion.

[1788] I know.

[1789] I just think like it's...

[1790] it's funny to me it's cute and funny that like when you say and like it comes up a lot on the show in our lives and stuff that like you were the toughest like you say that a lot yeah with pride i don't know that i say it with pride i hope it's coming across as i'm saying it as factual i mean yeah like i'm not going like i was the toughest in my school it's it's not that it's i was the toughest in my class right and it was that was my thing totally until remember is why clay and i broke up i didn't want that to be my thing yeah leaving spring mills i was like when i go to junior high i don't want that to be my thing yeah i want to be liked for other reasons yeah and i think it occurred to me a lot of people were friends with me just because they were afraid of me right and i didn't like that i was able to see it through clay i was able to see that a lot of kids were just nice to clay whether they like them or not because they were afraid of them right and i didn't like that you don't want that.

[1791] And then sixth grade was when I blossomed.

[1792] I was like a skateboarder, I was in a punk rock.

[1793] I had a bunch of other things going for me. I hope it's not coming across.

[1794] I say it like I was a bad motherfucker.

[1795] I didn't mean pride in a bad way.

[1796] I just meant it's part of the identity of who you were.

[1797] I say it like I say I was the biggest kid in my class.

[1798] Right.

[1799] Which was also the fact.

[1800] Right.

[1801] Not like, oh, the biggest.

[1802] But if I had nothing out, if I didn't like also join the math club that year?

[1803] Yeah.

[1804] And I wasn't into skateboarding, maybe.

[1805] I wouldn't, what else would I have done?

[1806] I don't know.

[1807] Right.

[1808] That makes me feel sad.

[1809] For humans?

[1810] Yeah.

[1811] Yeah.

[1812] It's just a way to have something.

[1813] Yeah.

[1814] I was like a beat up.

[1815] You remember this.

[1816] I got beat up by an older kid in the living room of my buddy's house.

[1817] Primarily because I wouldn't punch in the face.

[1818] And I didn't want to fight.

[1819] I made this declaration.

[1820] I wasn't going to fight.

[1821] Sean Castle.

[1822] The way you feel about David.

[1823] Showing up to get beat up.

[1824] Showing.

[1825] That's you too.

[1826] For, yeah.

[1827] But then I had.

[1828] At a period of being afraid.

[1829] Yeah, but that's fine.

[1830] Yeah, that's the part, I hated those few years I was afraid of it.

[1831] I hate feeling afraid.

[1832] Of course.

[1833] Yeah.

[1834] See, it happened to us.

[1835] 40 minutes just blew by.

[1836] It happens to us all the time.

[1837] Oh, I know.

[1838] How was your weekend?

[1839] It was great.

[1840] Yesterday was really great.

[1841] I had a really fun Sunday.

[1842] What did you do?

[1843] I've never tried to jog my neighborhood.

[1844] Oh.

[1845] So in the morning, I jogged it.

[1846] Uh -huh.

[1847] very hilly.

[1848] So hilly.

[1849] Yeah, it's up, down, up, down.

[1850] And I'm not a runner.

[1851] And I've been walking it recently.

[1852] Yes.

[1853] And on my walks, I've been like, I wonder, I think I could jog this.

[1854] So before my Formula One, I went on this jog, and I loved it.

[1855] And I was able to run the whole way.

[1856] Wow.

[1857] It is very hilly.

[1858] You know what the hack of it is?

[1859] When I would jog on Los Fields Boulevard, it's just long and straight.

[1860] I would run like three miles, mile a half straight there, turn around my line.

[1861] Yeah.

[1862] So much time to think about how much you don't like it.

[1863] Yeah.

[1864] Like a lot of free time.

[1865] This is so hilly and twisty.

[1866] And I'm also going on the outlines to touch the gate.

[1867] So I'm making sure I'm running every square inch of the neighborhood.

[1868] Oh, wow.

[1869] So I'm turning left.

[1870] I'm turning right.

[1871] I'm up this hill.

[1872] I'm down this hill.

[1873] So much constant changing that I never had that like bored.

[1874] I hate this.

[1875] That's good.

[1876] It was stimulating.

[1877] Watch the race.

[1878] The race was insane.

[1879] Did you hear?

[1880] Yes.

[1881] Yes.

[1882] You should be so happy.

[1883] I'm so happy.

[1884] Okay.

[1885] Tell everyone.

[1886] Danny got fifth.

[1887] Right highest finish of the season.

[1888] And I was very happy for it.

[1889] And he started in 18th.

[1890] He did?

[1891] Yeah.

[1892] Six cars either crashed or broke.

[1893] Wow.

[1894] It was a very wild Grand Prix.

[1895] Of course, what I really enjoyed watching was Max.

[1896] Yes.

[1897] Do you know anything about Max's raise?

[1898] No. I only know about Danny.

[1899] During qualifying, he was on his hot lap, the very end of the session.

[1900] He was purple in both two sectors.

[1901] He was going to get pole position, undoubtedly.

[1902] They started screaming box.

[1903] box, box, box.

[1904] He has to abort his last lap.

[1905] Ooh.

[1906] He's furious.

[1907] Why are you calling me in?

[1908] I don't know we got an answer, but they speculated.

[1909] Apparently, you have to finish qualifying with one liter of gas in your tank, and then they analyze that gas to make sure it's legit.

[1910] And if you have less than a leader, they will put you at the back of the grid.

[1911] You'll start in 20th.

[1912] Whoa.

[1913] This is a speculation.

[1914] It started to become clear on their instruments back in the pits that he was not going to have a leader of gas.

[1915] So they basically had to tell him to abort.

[1916] he started in eighth when he had a pole position run for sure so he's furious yeah race starts it's assholes and elbows wet track by lap two he's in 12th oh boy yes he's this track is also the hardest track to pass on other than monaco you can't pass so he's he's in 12th and you can't pass well this motherfucker works his way back up to i want to say fourth wow he then goes too hot into the turnst trying to pass Lando, doesn't crash, but spins out into the runoff.

[1917] Oh, God.

[1918] Does a donut.

[1919] Oh, God.

[1920] Has to come back in, has to get new tires, joins the race now well more than halfway through in last place.

[1921] So 12th, fourth, now last place.

[1922] Oh, my God.

[1923] Fought again all the way up and I think landed in seventh.

[1924] Wow.

[1925] So he was just up and down all day.

[1926] He was like, going to the back, going to the front, going to the back.

[1927] Oh, my God.

[1928] So it was a wild race.

[1929] Probably past 30 people yesterday to end up in seven.

[1930] That's crazy.

[1931] Yeah, it was very dramatic.

[1932] Fun.

[1933] What was your Sunday?

[1934] It was chill.

[1935] I had lunch with Rachel, which was really nice.

[1936] Where did you eat lunch?

[1937] Houston's.

[1938] Went to Houston's.

[1939] Chicken sandwich?

[1940] No, I got the, on Sundays I get the grilled cheese in to me. Oh, because it's a special day.

[1941] Do you watch any telling me?

[1942] I caught up on the patient on Saturday.

[1943] I like the patient.

[1944] What do you think is going to happen?

[1945] What's your prediction?

[1946] Predictions aren't spoilers, are they?

[1947] No. But do I have a prediction?

[1948] I'm just working backwards from what could possibly be a satisfying ending.

[1949] Yeah.

[1950] And he can't magically cure him of this and then not also send him to prison.

[1951] Right.

[1952] So there's no way you want to see someone have a breakthrough and get all better and then, you know, go rot in prison for the rest of their life.

[1953] Yeah.

[1954] I think he's going to kill him.

[1955] Yeah.

[1956] I think he's going to marry the mom and then just become his dad.

[1957] Oh.

[1958] Oh, really?

[1959] Great prediction.

[1960] Oh, my God.

[1961] That's unconventional.

[1962] I like that.

[1963] Their chemistry is off the charts.

[1964] So much sexual chemistry between them.

[1965] A sex tinge.

[1966] Ooh.

[1967] Eish.

[1968] Okay, Jonathan.

[1969] Sweetest guests we've ever had?

[1970] Very sweet.

[1971] Top of the list.

[1972] Very, very sweet.

[1973] So sweet.

[1974] Well, maybe Leon.

[1975] Bridges?

[1976] Yeah.

[1977] He was damn sweet.

[1978] Or, um.

[1979] Sweet off.

[1980] Who's the guy I love?

[1981] We should have different categories, top ten.

[1982] Tony, Hale.

[1983] Yeah.

[1984] Okay, is T .I. involved in the T .Rat Museum?

[1985] Yes.

[1986] Oh, he is.

[1987] Yes.

[1988] He founded the T .museum.

[1989] He founded it.

[1990] Mm -hmm.

[1991] Oh, wow.

[1992] I saw a post from T .I. this weekend.

[1993] Mm. Where he was wearing the full face mask with jewels and everything.

[1994] I think we saw Kendrick Lamar wears a face mask occasionally, right?

[1995] Was he wearing one during the Super Bowl thing?

[1996] No. Kanye was wearing a full face mask.

[1997] Oh, at the Super Bowl?

[1998] Uh -huh.

[1999] Oh, but do you notice that there's, like, stylish face masks in the hip -hop world?

[2000] They're not COVID masks.

[2001] Like, decorative, bejeweled hip -hop face masks.

[2002] Well, T .I. was at, I want to say the Trap Museum.

[2003] I think it was a post from the Trap Museum.

[2004] Whoa, ding, ding, ding.

[2005] An event.

[2006] Wow.

[2007] And he had this outrageously bedazzled, cool -looking face masks.

[2008] And I thought, is this the future, like, is everyone, are we going to be wearing decorative face masks?

[2009] That'd be cool.

[2010] I'd be fine with that.

[2011] We'd love that.

[2012] Well, this is a ding -ding -ding, Kanye ding -d -ding, because we talk about him.

[2013] The doc is three parts.

[2014] We didn't remember how many parts.

[2015] It's a trill.

[2016] They call it a trilogy.

[2017] Oh, a trilogy.

[2018] And you said that he's honest about being bipolar, which he is.

[2019] But he's also, he also, like, talks about not being on his medication.

[2020] Oh, yeah.

[2021] So it's interesting.

[2022] On the Letterman episode, he said he didn't like it because it makes him gain weight.

[2023] Right.

[2024] So it seems like, or at least in that interview, it seemed like his incentive to not be on it is to not gain weight.

[2025] Right.

[2026] Ugh.

[2027] Yeah.

[2028] Look, I understand.

[2029] You wrestled with that a tiny bit, right?

[2030] Yeah.

[2031] Yeah.

[2032] I did.

[2033] So I understand the feeling of like, I don't want my body to change because of this thing I need.

[2034] Well, yeah, you're kind of, you're forced to pick between your body and your mind.

[2035] Yeah.

[2036] Which is crazy.

[2037] I want, I want.

[2038] people pick their mind, especially when it's...

[2039] As dramatic as it is.

[2040] Extreme, good word.

[2041] Really good.

[2042] Extremely dramatic.

[2043] This is another ding, dang, dang, because TV shows.

[2044] The Apple show that there was a sampling episode is Watch the Sound.

[2045] It's Mark Ronson's show who we had on.

[2046] There we go.

[2047] I got to say it now because I've been forgetting.

[2048] So I've started to keep a folder about...

[2049] my Hulu, the episodes that have started.

[2050] Oh my God.

[2051] It happened to me. It did?

[2052] Tell me, tell me, tell me. It happened to me with the patient.

[2053] I watched episode five, I think it was.

[2054] And it ended.

[2055] So there was one more that should have auto -cued.

[2056] Yes.

[2057] And a new show came on, tell me lies.

[2058] Okay.

[2059] And I was like, wait, I was like, this is not, it has never happened to me. It was like, this is not happening.

[2060] It must be over.

[2061] There must not be another episode.

[2062] And I went back and there was.

[2063] And I was like, oh, my God, he's right.

[2064] Okay, here's what happened to us.

[2065] We were watching season six of Alone.

[2066] We're finishing episode three.

[2067] There's six more.

[2068] Yeah.

[2069] Goes from episode three.

[2070] Auto starts season one, episode six of Iron Sisters.

[2071] What the fuck is Iron Sisters?

[2072] even beyond what is Iron Sisters.

[2073] Why are you starting me at episode six of Iron Sisters?

[2074] Then watching, this was, this is in the last few days I started writing these down.

[2075] Watching season six of alone, episode three ended, and it went straight to keep this between us, episode one, season one.

[2076] Okay.

[2077] All right?

[2078] Okay.

[2079] Mine's a mess.

[2080] Yeah.

[2081] How are they going to drop me in the middle of?

[2082] love Iron Sisters.

[2083] That's weird.

[2084] It's just never happened to me and now it's happened.

[2085] Wow.

[2086] Okay.

[2087] What is Puffy's current name?

[2088] That's a funny Google search.

[2089] Yeah.

[2090] What is Puffy's current name?

[2091] It's hard to find.

[2092] I tried looking at it while it was happening.

[2093] Can we just go through him?

[2094] It started as Sean Combs.

[2095] Then it was Puff Daddy.

[2096] Puff Daddy.

[2097] Then it was P. Diddy.

[2098] That's right.

[2099] Then diddy.

[2100] Then Diddy.

[2101] Then Puffy.

[2102] Yeah.

[2103] It says as As of 2021, Sean Love Combs.

[2104] Sean Love Combs.

[2105] He's got a new middle name.

[2106] Yeah.

[2107] I don't know if it's changed since them, but.

[2108] I'm in a glass house.

[2109] I can't throw rocks.

[2110] I've been the monolith.

[2111] The Boulder.

[2112] Dan Gaines, am I?

[2113] Am I Dan Gaines?

[2114] Am I Dan Shepard?

[2115] I might have more than him, so I can't say shit.

[2116] Okay.

[2117] Let's see.

[2118] The Picasso parable.

[2119] You said it right, but it's just interesting.

[2120] He was at a Paris market When an admirer approached and asked if he could do a quick sketch On a paper napkin for her Picasso politely agreed promptly created a drawing and handed back the napkin But not before asking for a million francs A lady was shocked how can you ask for so much It took you five minutes to draw this No Picasso replied it took me 40 years to draw this in five minutes Pretty cool Pretty cool, pretty cool Although you shouldn't try to charge strangers a million for anything.

[2121] Does Sean Kemp have a CBD store?

[2122] Yes.

[2123] It's called Kemp's Cannabis.

[2124] It's in Seattle.

[2125] Alliteration.

[2126] Mm -hmm.

[2127] Kemp's cannabis.

[2128] If you're looking to smoke a little Ganges and you find yourself up in the Pugent Sound area, pull into Kemp's cannabis and suck down a doobie in the parking lot.

[2129] It might even run into old Sean Kemp.

[2130] Star Power Forward for the Sonics.

[2131] I think that's all.

[2132] That's all?

[2133] That is all, I believe.

[2134] All I guess update is, I did.

[2135] I did add black or the berry to my playlist.

[2136] Great.

[2137] And I do love it.

[2138] Right.

[2139] Yeah.

[2140] Okay.

[2141] So before we wrap up, we're going to list off our new prompts.

[2142] Can we call them November prompts or is that inaccurate?

[2143] It's accurate.

[2144] Okay.

[2145] November prompts.

[2146] Okay.

[2147] In the spirit.

[2148] Number one.

[2149] What is the craziest thing you've witnessed on a Black Friday?

[2150] Mm. I hope there's some juicy that.

[2151] I've seen some shit.

[2152] on the news right they can get rowdy fleek was this the episode i said on fleek no that just came out yeah i think that's all in the comments um okay so craziest thing you've witnessed on a black friday sale number two craziest fight you've ever seen at the thanksgiving dinner table yes yeah it's bound to be some doosies in there i'm sure uh some uncles throwing haymakers number three tell us about your worst dating experience from an app.

[2153] Yes.

[2154] Did I say that correctly?

[2155] Yeah.

[2156] Okay, great.

[2157] I think we'll get some good ones.

[2158] Okay.

[2159] And now this one for a hair -raising one, the worst place you've ever been stuck.

[2160] The worst place you've ever been stuck.

[2161] For example, real quick, Ryan Hanson was stuck on a side of a mountain.

[2162] On the side of a mountain.

[2163] Required a helicopter.

[2164] Was horrifying.

[2165] Yeah.

[2166] Yeah, so in that vein.

[2167] Never have I been so delighted to be away working on a vacation.

[2168] Like at first when I was driving to work that day and y 'all were going to be on vacation, I was like, God, Dima, why do I got to work?

[2169] Yeah.

[2170] And then as the day was unfolding, I'm like, thank God I'm not there.

[2171] It was so stressful.

[2172] Yes, because everyone's got to feel an obligation to solve this insane situation.

[2173] I feel like I would have volunteered to do something I was incapable of doing.

[2174] You know what I'm saying?

[2175] Probably.

[2176] Get some rope, climb up there myself.

[2177] Yeah, then you would have been stuck.

[2178] Then we were tied to each other.

[2179] I couldn't hoist them up.

[2180] Who knows?

[2181] Yep, no. It was probably for the best.

[2182] Okay, those are your prompts.

[2183] Yeah, so writing, go to our website.

[2184] www.

[2185] www .armchairexpertpod .com and submit.

[2186] And we'll hopefully talk to you.

[2187] Talk soon.

[2188] Oh, Rob's got house clean.

[2189] For Thanksgiving, do we want craziest fight specifically or do we want to widen it to the craziest thing that's happened at Thanksgiving?

[2190] I think maybe crazy thing because also somebody could be going in the Thanksgiving.

[2191] hospital.

[2192] Pee Pee got a carcass.

[2193] Right.

[2194] Pee Pee got a carcass.

[2195] Okay, so what is the craziest thing that's happened at Thanksgiving dinner?

[2196] It could be Pee Pee got a carcass.

[2197] Those people who remember.

[2198] All right.

[2199] I love you.

[2200] Love you.

[2201] Follow Armchair Expert on the Wondry app, Amazon music, or wherever you get your podcasts.

[2202] You can listen to every episode of Armchair Expert, and ad -free right now by joining Wondry Plus in the Wondry app or on Apple Podcasts.

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