#954 - Justin Brown

[0] Five, four, three, two, one.

[1] And we're live with Justin Brown.

[2] Justin, first of all, I'm very upset to give you such a small badge.

[3] What's up with that?

[4] Yeah, no, it's nice and tiny there.

[5] Not law enforcement, so.

[6] It seems like you should have, like, like, there's some badge there.

[7] There's some enforcement, right?

[8] It sure looks like it, doesn't it?

[9] But no law enforcement on my end, just the biologist.

[10] Well, listen, man, I've read about your work in an online article.

[11] I don't remember where it was, but about coyotes.

[12] in the urban area all around Los Angeles.

[13] And I've been fascinated by this since I moved to L .A. The first time I saw Coyote was in 1994.

[14] When I first moved here, I was in Burbank.

[15] And I had an apartment.

[16] You know, one of those, they have those pre -furnished Oakwoods Gardens apartment on Olive Street.

[17] You know where that is?

[18] I'm off top of my head.

[19] It's where people always, when they transition to L .A., they get one of these pre -furnished apartments.

[20] Anyway, I'm driving up Olive, and I saw, saw these coyotes, and it was the first time I'd ever seen a coyote, and I was like, this is crazy.

[21] Like, this is in Burbank.

[22] This is in a residential area, and they were just hanging out, and I pulled over, and I stopped, and I rolled down the window, and I was staring at them, and they're staring at me, and they didn't give a shit about me. They were so calm, and they didn't run, and I just remember thinking, this is so strange.

[23] These are, like, wild dogs that live, like, right amongst us, and then from then on, I've had some encounters.

[24] I had a coyote steal a chicken from my yard.

[25] I watched them hop the fence with a chicken in his mouth.

[26] I've had quite a few encounters with coyotes, but I'm absolutely fascinated by them.

[27] I mean, they've been amazing.

[28] I've been working with them now for almost 15 years, actually a little bit more than that now, and I've seen them do some amazing things.

[29] I mean, they're able to live in some of the most urban environments we can imagine.

[30] I mean, I'm tracking them right next to, I don't know if you know where the West Lake neighborhood is in downtown L .A., but I have a coyote running that neighborhood, which when I first drove through there, so I worked in Chicago for a long time.

[31] We were tracking coyotes in some incredibly urban areas there, like right along Lakeshore Drive in Chicago.

[32] But in Chicago, there's some green spots where when you get down in L .A., there's not a lot of open spots.

[33] There's some little vacant lots and stuff.

[34] But I tracked this coyote for about nine months down there in that area, and she was just amazing.

[35] Like, she was running the streets.

[36] She'd kind of hang out these little vacant lots.

[37] And what was even more amazing is that no one was really complaining about her.

[38] We actually talked to people in some of the houses and stuff.

[39] They were actually fascinated to see them versus being like, they're in my backyard, where they do.

[40] doing.

[41] Well, people have always had a weird relationship with coyotes.

[42] I had Dan Flores on the podcast last month, who's the author of Coyote America.

[43] And he's a wildlife historian and has just some amazing insight until like the relationship to Coyotes had way back with the Native Americans.

[44] You know, they thought there were gods in a lot of ways.

[45] Yeah, I actually listened to your podcast with Dan.

[46] That was great.

[47] Dan's got some pretty interesting facts just in his book in general, things I didn't actually know about before.

[48] It was kind of nice to have a historian.

[49] and tie in some of the facts.

[50] I get asked lots of questions about where the coyotes came from, how they're moving around.

[51] Yeah.

[52] And so it's nice to have something like Dan's book to kind of reference people to.

[53] I think most people in the downtown LA probably welcome something like a coyote because it's kind of cool, you know, to have this thing like hanging around you.

[54] As long as you don't have a dog or a cat that it snatches.

[55] Yeah, and that's definitely the case.

[56] A lot of people think it's cool, but they do cause problems.

[57] I'm actually dealing with one in the Silver Lake neighborhood that keeps going up to people walking their dogs and trying to, It's got a den in somebody's backyard is actually dinning under their deck.

[58] So the deck's open.

[59] And she put our seven pups underneath this den.

[60] Whoa.

[61] Yeah, so it's pretty crazy.

[62] But she was basically anybody gets close with a dog.

[63] She comes out and tries to run them off.

[64] And this is pretty common during pupping season.

[65] This is like the time when most people have issues with coyotes because they're trying to protect their dins.

[66] I mean, we're all obviously protective of our offspring.

[67] Right.

[68] So they think that the dog is going to find the pups and kill them or something?

[69] I mean, we don't really know.

[70] why they're doing it.

[71] We assume that's probably the case.

[72] They come up and most of the attacks have been where they just come up behind the dog and start trying to like nip at its back.

[73] Wow.

[74] The dog, the people move on.

[75] People freak out.

[76] As far as I know, there hasn't been anywhere that coyote actually like draw blood on the dog.

[77] So it's almost more like it's like get the hell out of here.

[78] Right.

[79] So they're just scaring them.

[80] They're not trying to, they're not actually being predators.

[81] That's what it seems like for the most part.

[82] I mean, they definitely do kill little dogs.

[83] Yeah.

[84] And occasionally end up fighting with big dogs as well.

[85] But that's, that's rare.

[86] Wow.

[87] So these, what are they eating?

[88] Like this, especially the one in downtown.

[89] Yeah, so that's interesting.

[90] We've actually been doing this study using up, working with a bunch of citizen scientists.

[91] And I don't know if that's the story you read or not, but we're basically having people collect coyote scat from around downtown in LA.

[92] And we're actually breaking the coyotescat up to look what's in it.

[93] And we're seeing a huge variety of things.

[94] I mean, lots of fruits and stuff.

[95] They're actually big time into vegetation type stuff.

[96] Yeah.

[97] A lot of fruits.

[98] And in the urban environment, obviously, we've got peaches and plums and all kinds.

[99] kinds of crazy fruiting stuff that they take advantage of.

[100] But they're also eating rats and squirrels, cats, insects.

[101] We've seen things like earwigs and those big old potato bugs that people see.

[102] I mean, almost anything you could think of, they're taking advantage of.

[103] Human trash.

[104] Well, I've had them in my yard for a long time, and one of the things that surprised me is how much coyote scat that I find with berries in it.

[105] Like, I didn't know that they were omnivores.

[106] I mean, they really are omnivores.

[107] It's not like a dog or a cat.

[108] I mean they eat pretty much everything.

[109] Yeah, I mean, coyotes can take advantage and that's why they're able to live amongst us, I mean, because even when there's not a lot of prey available, they're able to take advantage of these different fruiting trees.

[110] Yeah, you know, I was talking with a friend about it and he was saying that he hates them and, you know, he wants to kill them all and all this stuff.

[111] And I was saying, but yeah, but ever notice that you don't see any rats?

[112] Like, we hardly have any rats.

[113] Like, it's so rare that you see a rat or a mouse in my area.

[114] And I think a big part of that is because you hear coyotes all the time, and I think they're eating them all.

[115] I mean, they definitely'll take advantage of them.

[116] I mean, there's other predators, too.

[117] I'm not sure where you live exactly.

[118] Owls and hawks and stuff.

[119] Bobcats and all those different things, definitely have the advantage of those prey as well.

[120] But, yeah, coyotes, I mean, they're amazing.

[121] Yeah, they really are a fascinating animal.

[122] So this one that got to downtown L .A., do you know, like, when it arrived?

[123] I don't know when it arrived, so I kind of drove through there looking to see where I might be able to.

[124] to collar a few animals so we could kind of see what's going on and how these animals are persisting down there.

[125] How do you do that?

[126] How do I see where they persisting?

[127] No, how do you collar them?

[128] Oh, how do I collar them?

[129] So first we have to capture them.

[130] So we'll put out traps.

[131] We'll capture them.

[132] And then once I get them in a trap, I'll go out with a pole.

[133] I'll pin them to the ground.

[134] And then I'll hold them down.

[135] Jesus.

[136] And then we'll throw a collar on them.

[137] We'll take blood to look for disease.

[138] You don't trank them?

[139] We don't tranquilize them.

[140] Wow, that's crazy.

[141] Yeah, they actually go very docile.

[142] They're a lot like a dog.

[143] Once you kind of show them that you're the dominant thing, they kind of just lay over.

[144] I mean, you start to be careful.

[145] Obviously, they can turn and bite you if you don't muzzle them.

[146] Right.

[147] But usually, once you get them down that first time, they usually just lay there until you're done.

[148] No kidding.

[149] Yeah, and it usually takes me somewhere 35, 40 minutes to do the whole thing.

[150] And they just lay there.

[151] They're not fighting me anything else.

[152] Do you have video of that?

[153] I'm sure I do.

[154] I want to see that.

[155] That's got to be a trip.

[156] Yeah, I know.

[157] I would think that they would be like a wild cat.

[158] Like, I've had a feral cat before, and I had her when she was a kitten, or he, rather, when he was a kitten.

[159] And he was like, spas.

[160] Like, you couldn't even hold onto him.

[161] You'd freak out and climb the curtains and hiss and sputter at you.

[162] And that was like a little domestic cat that was born outside.

[163] Oh, yeah.

[164] We do drug any of our cats we catch.

[165] So we catch bobcats.

[166] It's another study that we're doing a lot of.

[167] We've actually had a bobcat project going on since 1996.

[168] And so we've been collaring those guys for a long time.

[169] They're not docile.

[170] They're not docile.

[171] We don't trust them.

[172] Raccoons are another species.

[173] You don't handle those guys undrugged.

[174] Oh, yeah, I would imagine.

[175] They'll make you pay the price.

[176] Isn't that crazy?

[177] Like, people don't realize that raccoons are predators.

[178] Yeah, well, they're definitely omnivores, just like the coyotes are.

[179] They actually eat a lot of fruit and stuff.

[180] They take, I mean, part of them living in an urban environment is they're just taking massive advantage of our garbage.

[181] Right.

[182] Raccoons just, I mean, I've seen amazing photos of like 13, 14 raccoons.

[183] and one garbage can all feasting down.

[184] I have chickens in my backyard, and this one raccoon was by my chicken coop the other day, and I flashed a light on him, and he walked towards the light.

[185] I was like, look at this cocky bitch.

[186] He just started walking at me, and I got nervous.

[187] I was like, I don't have a weapon on me or nothing.

[188] I thought a flashlight, he'd be like, well, let me get out of here.

[189] He's just looking right at the flashlight, walking towards me, you know, trying to get to the chicken coop.

[190] Yeah, well, you'd be amazed how many people feed them.

[191] Oh, yeah.

[192] Because they're so dang cute.

[193] Right.

[194] Big old mask on them.

[195] People are like, oh, they're starving out there.

[196] They can't find their own food.

[197] And so they feel like they need to feed them.

[198] And same thing with coyotes, too.

[199] People feel like these animals can't fin for themselves, which is ridiculous because they're not able to make it there because we're feeding them.

[200] They're making it because there's resources for them to take advantage of.

[201] Yeah, I would imagine they probably play.

[202] I mean, like I said, I think in my neighborhood, they do play an important part of keeping the rodent population down.

[203] But in downtown, there's got to be a ton of rodents as well.

[204] I mean, downtown for people who don't know, is like the only area in all of L .A. that really looks like a city.

[205] Yeah, definitely.

[206] I mean, like I said, I drove through there.

[207] I mean, after tracking coyotes in Chicago, I didn't think they'd be in some of the areas they are in L .A. There seemed to be everywhere I look.

[208] I get photos of coyotes on our cameras or get people reporting them to us.

[209] And this one that's in downtown, it's just a single coyote by herself?

[210] No, actually, she's got a whole pack.

[211] So I call her, and then within a couple, she was actually lactating when I caught her.

[212] so I know she had pups.

[213] And then we ended up seeing her with five pups probably a week later.

[214] And there was actually an ambulance that drove by, and she just started howling and all the pups were out there yipping.

[215] And this is all like in this little vacant lot between two houses.

[216] Wow.

[217] So they just find these areas where people aren't.

[218] Yeah.

[219] And so before we colored them, the one thing I always heard is, oh, the coyotes are coming in from Griffith Park, or they're coming in from Elysian Park and coming into our communities.

[220] And they're just here for a night or two nights.

[221] causing problems and leaving well that's not what we're seeing definitely once we threw these collars on these animals we're like no they've got pretty small home ranges they're kind of living just in the urban environment they're not going back and forth wow they're living with us so do you feel like it's a good thing or a bad thing to have them around or just a thing i think it's just a thing i mean depends on your perspective um i think it's bad when people think we need to feed them right to do these things like to encourage them and make them more comfortable with us that's not a thing because that's when bites and that kind of stuff happen but if when it comes to the coyotes and stuff living in these urban environments it's really all about us it's more about managing people getting people to quit feeding them or quit i mean one thing i encourage people to do scare the stupid coyote off like because there's lots of people that have little issues that occur with the coyotes their cats get taken or the coyotes start just sitting there watching them i had somebody complained recently because the coyote was sitting behind their yard looking at their wife in the jacuzzi oh jesus christ so it's a pervert yeah exactly Exactly.

[222] So it's like, come on, like, all he has to do, if he really doesn't want it there, go back there and run the thing off.

[223] So they call you and tell you that a coyotes staring at their wife?

[224] Yeah, you'd be amazed the calls we get about coyotes.

[225] People just, people are still not comfortable with them being there, even though they've been there for a long time.

[226] It's just people cannot get comfortable with the idea of there being a medium -sized predator in these urban environments.

[227] They're like the perfect size to almost get away with it, too.

[228] You know, like, it's not like a wolf.

[229] Like, if a wolf was around, everybody would be freaking out.

[230] Like, it's too big.

[231] Yeah, exactly.

[232] But a coyote is like, you know, 40 pounds, something like that.

[233] And that's a big coyote.

[234] What's a small one?

[235] So our average is around 25 to 27 pounds.

[236] Wow, okay.

[237] So you're really not small.

[238] They are.

[239] And that's why I'm always like, when people are so scared of them, I'm like, it's really not that big of an animal.

[240] I mean, there's a lot of these small dogs are bigger than that.

[241] They're smart, though, man. They're really clever.

[242] One of them, he or she essentially, what you would say, honeydicked my dog and tricked my dog.

[243] into, do you know what it's like when chicken molts?

[244] Yeah, I actually have chickens as well.

[245] Oh, okay, cool.

[246] Yeah.

[247] So my chicken was molting, so I had to separate her from the rest of the chickens, so she wasn't in a nesting box, and I put her in a cage by herself.

[248] If you let them sit in a cage for a few days, they figure out that they don't really have an egg, and then they go back to their normal behavior.

[249] So this coyote was too small to knock over the cage, but my mastiff is big enough to do it.

[250] She literally tricked my Mastiff into coming out with her towards where the chickens are.

[251] He knocks over the cage.

[252] She steals the chicken and hops over the fence.

[253] Wow.

[254] Did you see all this happen?

[255] I caught him with another chicken in his mouth.

[256] And I was like, you motherfucker.

[257] And then I see the coyote jump over the fence with the chicken.

[258] Like he was with the coyote right next to it.

[259] He thought it was his friend.

[260] Like he was treating the coyote like, this is my friend.

[261] She's cool.

[262] We hang out.

[263] together and she tricked him into knocking over this small pen you know he's like 140 pounds he just smashed that thing and broke it open and she grabbed the chicken thanks pjong and hopped over the fence and i watched her i was sitting there i was playing like monopoly or something with my wife and my kids or sitting in the living room and i see the coy running across the backyard with the chicken in its mouth and hopped over this five -foot fence like it didn't even exist just boing just right over the top of it.

[264] I was like, wow, that's crazy.

[265] Yeah, they're really smart.

[266] I mean, heck, to live in downtown, they've got to be.

[267] Like, crossing roads, it's amazing.

[268] Like, I watch them walk up to these busy roads.

[269] They stop about 10 feet shy, kind of sit there listening.

[270] Then they'll peek around the corner and look both ways, and then they'll run across.

[271] Well, I've heard that they understand traffic lights now.

[272] There was an article I've read yesterday about coyotes and traffic lights that there's real evidence that coyotes understand when that beep, beep, you know, that beep sound that they use for blind people, that coyotes understand that that means the cars aren't allowed to go, and that's when they walk.

[273] I haven't seen that one.

[274] That's interesting.

[275] It doesn't surprise me. I mean, it's incredible watching them move around this urban environment and just dealing with us and dealing with traffic.

[276] Like, they get around.

[277] I mean, they'll come out in the street.

[278] All suddenly, somebody will peek out in the street to go around their car, and they'll cut between the cars and go down the sidewalk.

[279] Like, they figure out our movements and how to avoid us pretty quick.

[280] How many do you think there are in the greater L .A. area?

[281] I get asked that question a lot, and it's a hard one to answer because we don't know, because they are pack animals.

[282] So you could end up with easily, it could be just two animals in an area, or it could be two adults with seven young or it could even be five, six, seven, ten adults together with a pack of young as well.

[283] Because a lot of times the young from the year before may not disperse.

[284] If there's enough food available, they'll keep hanging in there until they are able to find their own territory.

[285] So whenever someone would give an estimation, it's really just a rough guess.

[286] It's a very rough guess.

[287] A lot of times what they'll do is they'll just try to be like, okay, this is how big of an area coyote uses and then be like, okay, there's this much area in L .A. and throw a number out there, but there's a lot of variables that come in.

[288] And has the, do you feel like the numbers increased over the past few years?

[289] Definitely not over the last few years.

[290] It's possible over the long run, because I know there are some reports of places that there weren't coyotes.

[291] Like the Baldwin Hills, there was some work done where they identified all the different animals there and coyotes weren't in their list.

[292] So they used trail cams?

[293] Like, what did they use to identify the animals?

[294] Back then, I think they were doing a lot of track surveys and just going out there into the field and looking for them.

[295] Track surveys meaning like looking at the ground?

[296] Exactly.

[297] Yeah, and with coyotes, they leave enough scat different places.

[298] Like, if they were looking hard for them, they would have found them.

[299] How can you tell the difference between coyotescat and dog scat?

[300] usually so dog scat is almost always just dog food and it doesn't these coyotes scats end up getting more spiraled inside and so they'll be really tapered on the ends where dog scat can be tapered but it's usually just drastically different huh why is it tapered um it's partially just the way their digestive system works and they're getting all this hair in there because they're eating these animals and so it gets more and more spiraled as it comes out and we can tell them apart from like bobcats because bobcats kind of get this They're more almost, I don't want to call it a pellet, but they're, they're smaller segmented, and they're kind of just one side's concave, one side's convex of each pellet.

[301] And so you can tell them apart.

[302] That's actually, can be more difficult for some people than the dog and the coyote.

[303] I found some mountain lion shit once in Santa Monica, not in Santa Monica, excuse me, Santa Barbara.

[304] And it was very disturbing because it was a rope, like a fat rope of hairy shit.

[305] And I was like, what is this from?

[306] And I sent it to a friend of mine who is, he's very knowledgeable.

[307] about animals he's like it's almost definitely a mountain line it's like whoa somebody got got here because it was it was pretty thick rope like a human size log with with all this hair in it we actually have a lion study going in our mountains too we've been calling our mountain lions for a long time sure you've probably heard a p -22 in griffith park i have yeah that's actually an animal that one of my colleagues collared oh yeah that's the famous photo over the hollywood hills exactly that is an amazing photo of that enormous cat with that collar on.

[308] Yeah, that was Steve Winners with National Geographic got that photo.

[309] I mean, it's pretty impressive.

[310] He worked hard between him and my colleague Jeff.

[311] They did a lot of work to get that photo.

[312] Well, Jamie said, I'm going to pull that photo up.

[313] We take a look at it now.

[314] That is an iconic photograph, man. You know what?

[315] I think we should have that photo in the new studio.

[316] We should get a print of that.

[317] Can we buy a print of that?

[318] You know, and someone could buy a print of that?

[319] I believe you can get it from Steve Winters.

[320] Let's, Jamie, make a note of whoever this gentleman is and if he sells that.

[321] Because that is, That seems so crazy.

[322] It doesn't even look like a real photo because the Hollywood sign is so perfect in the background and the cat is fucking huge.

[323] You know what's amazing about the Hollywood sign?

[324] There's no lights on the Hollywood sign.

[325] He got that photo because he was able to do enough camera work that he made the Hollywood sign glare out.

[326] That's just from lights from the city.

[327] Really?

[328] Yeah.

[329] If you look at the Hollywood sign at night, it's not lit up like that.

[330] Wow.

[331] Look at the forearm on that thing.

[332] I mean, that's like a thigh.

[333] yeah god it's a huge cat how big do you think that is it's a big male I think the last time so we've captured him three or four times now and I think the last time he was about 120 1 20 -130 I believe I don't not positive of that but it's somewhere in that area yeah he's a good size cat I mean what's amazing he's running in Griffith Park he never leaves the Griffith Park general area because he's blocked by freeways and yet there hasn't been any conflicts with him people besides the time he got underneath that guy's house.

[334] God, look at the size of him.

[335] But yeah.

[336] Jesus Christ, that's so weird.

[337] So joggers no one gets interrupted by him?

[338] Interrupt is a funny word.

[339] Jacked is a better word.

[340] He doesn't mess with people at all?

[341] No, we get sightings everywhere where people report it, but yeah, we haven't had any conflicts with him, which has been it's amazing.

[342] I mean, he's got the smallest home range of any mountain lion, male mountain lion that we've know of.

[343] So what is like a square mile.

[344] Is he just the park?

[345] He's just the park.

[346] I mean, he goes, he's been up by like Universal Studios right in there once or twice, like in some green strip through there.

[347] But for the most part, yeah, he's just hanging in the park and then some DWP property next to the park.

[348] How big is the park?

[349] I wish I could call that number off top of my head.

[350] Just roughly, if you had a guess.

[351] Oh, yeah, I'm not good with that.

[352] No, Griffith Park?

[353] Yeah.

[354] I looked up there.

[355] It's like 4 ,300 acres or something like that.

[356] Okay.

[357] It's like the biggest in America or maybe the world, urban park?

[358] Double check.

[359] It's a pretty big park.

[360] It is.

[361] But when you compare that to Mount lions in our main mountains, we usually think two mountain lions can live in the Santa Monica Mountains, which is about 150 ,000 acres.

[362] So his range is pretty small, 4 ,300 compared to about 75 ,000 acres.

[363] That's incredible.

[364] And he's mostly eating deer.

[365] He eats some coyotes, raccoons, but it's almost most of all of our mountain lions, all their diets, deer.

[366] Well, that's one of the reasons why there's so few deer in California.

[367] I hear that.

[368] I mean, we don't.

[369] we don't know if that's truly what's going on.

[370] Mountain lions, they do kind of self -regulate.

[371] So the big males usually kill the smaller males.

[372] And so they do kind of control their own populations at some level.

[373] Oh, that's interesting.

[374] So the competition, they kill a competition.

[375] They're not cannibals, though.

[376] I don't believe they eat them.

[377] They usually just kill them.

[378] That's interesting.

[379] So do they kill them to bring the females to estrus, or they do them just because they're competition?

[380] We believe it's just because it's competition because they're usually killing those, Yearling males.

[381] So they're killing them once they're independent?

[382] Exactly.

[383] So.

[384] But they also, we have had them kill a female lion as well.

[385] So really?

[386] It's not that simple.

[387] Hmm.

[388] That's interesting.

[389] And is this in the park you found this?

[390] Yeah.

[391] Wow.

[392] So you find a dead mountain line in the park?

[393] I mean, they have radio callers on them.

[394] So we kind of know what's going on.

[395] Now, is there any concern?

[396] Like, does anybody make the argument that they shouldn't be there?

[397] Does anybody ever say, hey, you know, this is where I live?

[398] I don't want this cat here.

[399] Why do you guys let this thing?

[400] It's a giant predator wandering around our neighborhood.

[401] Yeah, I mean, we definitely hear that, but we also get the other side as well a lot where they want to protect every lion.

[402] Right.

[403] I mean, we hear the same thing with coyotes.

[404] People don't want the coyotes there.

[405] With the coyotes, it's even more tricky because we've tried to kill coyotes for a long time to try to get them out of areas.

[406] And we have not been successful.

[407] I mean, places like Chicago with coyotes, I mean, they'll go through and do removals.

[408] Like a lot of the landowners will do removals, and the coyotes just come back pretty quickly.

[409] Interesting.

[410] So it's really not that effective.

[411] When you start trying to remove these animals.

[412] Yeah, especially coyotes, right?

[413] They're so crafty.

[414] I read a really disturbing article about mountain lions where they were talking about the number of mountain lions that get killed every year by professional mountain lion hunters that the government hires because they're preying on cats and dogs.

[415] And they said that 50 % of these animals, this is around the San Francisco area, that 50 % of their diet was domestic animals, like domestic cats and dogs.

[416] Yeah, I'm not familiar with that one, but we definitely haven't seen that with ours.

[417] So this one has just got a good supply of deer, and that's just what it's eating on a regular basis.

[418] That's what it seems like.

[419] I mean, even Griffith Park, that's what they're focused on.

[420] I mean, like I said, they also kill the coyotes and the raccoons and stuff as well.

[421] Sure.

[422] The other thing that was disturbing about that article, because the author was trying to make a connection between missing children.

[423] They were talking about several cases over the years where children were missing and never found again, and these are the same areas where these mountain lines were roaming, and they were wondering whether or not that had been the case.

[424] And that makes you just go, whoa.

[425] Yeah, I mean, I think it's probably more likely human -caused than wildlife caused.

[426] I mean, we're way creepier than these animals are.

[427] That's true, but do you remember about two years ago there was a case in Cupertino right near the Apple campus where a mountain line attacked a kid?

[428] and the father had to fight the mountain lion off.

[429] I mean, these stories definitely pop up every once in a while, but we also have lots of places where there's lions and there's no issues.

[430] Right.

[431] Our mountains, we haven't had a human lion issue.

[432] I mean, we've had livestock taken, but that's about it.

[433] And we're talking a park that gets huge amount of visitors.

[434] Griffith, yeah.

[435] And lots of lion.

[436] Well, Griffith, but also the whole Santa Monica Mountains.

[437] Right.

[438] So we're part of the Santa Monica Mountains National Recreation Area.

[439] And we've got, at any given time, we could have 12 to 15 lions in there.

[440] Wow.

[441] Wow, really?

[442] And we've never had a human lion issue besides livestock.

[443] What is the big issue when they do attack people?

[444] Because it's always like someone either running or on a bike.

[445] They think that the person is trying to get away.

[446] Is it like a cat thing, like a regular cat?

[447] You know, like if you roll a ball, a yarn in front of a cat, they just jump on it.

[448] Yeah, I don't think we really have a full understanding, but it probably has something to do with a prey drive.

[449] Yeah.

[450] Because I've read a few mountains.

[451] mountain lion attacks on people that had to do with mountain bikes and I was I was thinking like why would they want to attack someone on a bike it seems like a bike would be scary yeah I mean they're an ambush predator and they're they're big animal so they're not used to having anything bigger than them take them on so right they're not they're not that fearful of most things I mean a lot of times when people see the lions they don't run and so people freak out but that's that's actually not uncommon for them just to kind of sit there and look at you and judge your situation yeah try to figure out what they can do with you or whether or not they should eat you hope that's not what they're thinking but right most likely not right most likely not how like what are the numbers of attacks on people do you know like if you'd have to talk to my colleague i'm definitely not the lion guy in our office right i'm much more focused on coyotes do you remember the last time you heard of a lion attack on people um no and off top of my head i mean it might have been that apple thing or there was there was attack in orange county quite a while back um but that's really it it's not that common.

[452] There's a mountain lion.

[453] There's a mountain lion in San Juan Capistrano that's been attacking this farm.

[454] A buddy of mine, Ian McCall, who's a UFC fighter, has a friend who owns this farm, and this mountain lion has been hitting this farm every now and again.

[455] And the other day it killed 37 ducks and a goat.

[456] Just goes on a rampage.

[457] Yeah.

[458] And doesn't even eat them.

[459] Just fucks him up and leaves.

[460] Yeah.

[461] So what we usually see with them is, I mean, because they almost always eat what they kill.

[462] It's just when they kill something in a farm, they usually end up being uncomfortable afterwards because we come in, we see the situation, things change, and so they don't come back because they'll feed on a deer for a week or more.

[463] Right.

[464] So I think it's more of a factor.

[465] When they leave those things, it's more that they just all saying like, oh, crap, what I do?

[466] I got to get out of here.

[467] Why did they kill 37 then?

[468] It's just prey drive.

[469] I mean, they can't help themselves.

[470] Yeah, there's times when they get in pins with bigger animals too, things like llamas and stuff where they end up killing multiple animals just because they get in this pen and all suddenly they're jumping around making all these noises and so then the animals get excited and I mean it's just like a dog dogs that get in after chickens all of a sudden the dog goes in and kills the whole flock of chickens right they just can't help themselves yeah there's that one that's in the Santa Monica Mountains what is it P52 is that the name of it P45 I'm guessing if that's what you're talking about is that the one that killed the bunch of llamas and the woman got a depredation permit to kill the mountain line and then people freaked out and started sending her death threats.

[471] Yeah, he got a little out of control.

[472] Yeah, it's like it was really creepy listening to this woman's position because she didn't know what to do because she's, you know, she lives there.

[473] She's got this farm and this big old cat.

[474] This keeps coming in and fucking up like 10 llamas in a setting.

[475] Yeah, so us and National Wildlife Federation actually started working with her to try to help pin her animals up better because a lot of it just comes to making sure your animals are secure at night.

[476] Is that what it is?

[477] It's like you have to figure out a way to close the area so the mountain line can't get into.

[478] Exactly.

[479] And it doesn't take anything that complicated.

[480] We actually held a workshop for people in the local vicinity.

[481] And we'll be holding more to teach livestock owners how to secure their animals so that that stuff doesn't happen.

[482] Is there a way they can do something that, like, emits a sound or something that scares them off?

[483] So there are some devices out there that are being tested and being used in some vicinities.

[484] But nothing's 100%.

[485] The problem with a lot of devices is you've got livestock moving around.

[486] so they're going to be triggering the devices all night.

[487] Oh, right.

[488] And so it's kind of a tough situation.

[489] The best thing is to try to pin the animals up.

[490] So you have to put something with a roof on it, so the mountain line can't get in over the top.

[491] Exactly.

[492] So when you're talking about an animal like that, like when they, sometimes they capture them and then they move them to a new area, right?

[493] That is very rare to happen.

[494] Is it really?

[495] Yeah, like when we capture animals, we don't move anybody.

[496] You just let them go right back to where they are We collar them, we take blood, we do what we need to do to them, and then we just let them go right there.

[497] So is the idea, like, mess with them as little as possible?

[498] Exactly, yeah.

[499] If we didn't have to capture them, we wouldn't capture them.

[500] If there was a way to get a collar on the animal without touching it, we would do that.

[501] Like maybe a dart that shoots a GPS unit in them or something.

[502] Yeah, whatever the technology is, if it ever comes up that way, most wildlife people would prefer.

[503] Because at least we have to do to them, the more we're going to understand their behaviors.

[504] Yeah, I would imagine this cat in Griffith Park.

[505] You said it's been captured three times?

[506] Yeah, that's kind of crazy.

[507] Might even be four.

[508] I can't remember.

[509] I'm not, like I said, I'm not the guy that does all the lion work, so I just help out.

[510] The cat must be like, Jesus Christ, they got me again?

[511] The third time he's probably like, I'm so tired of wearing the stupid jewelry they keep putting on me. Yeah, well, I don't know.

[512] You might have saw the pictures, too, where he was really sick with mange.

[513] Oh, yeah, that's right.

[514] Yeah, and so they got a medication.

[515] So we caught him and we have a topical medication that we can give animals.

[516] We do it to bobcats and stuff.

[517] So what we found with this mange disease is.

[518] is that it's caused by rodinicides.

[519] So all these rat poisons we put out there basically ends up getting into the mountain lions and the bobcats and the coyotes.

[520] And there seems to be some sort of correlation between those poisons and why these animals get sick.

[521] Oh, is that him right there with Mange?

[522] Yep, that's him.

[523] Yeah, that's fascinating.

[524] That is a real issue with people poisoning these animals so that it also affects owls apparently.

[525] Rat poison is causing a drop in the owl population because the owls are getting a whole of the animals.

[526] these rats that are sick from the oh that's interesting yeah well it's amazing i mean to think of a mountain lion getting rat poisons it's not like they're out there hunting rats right but it's because they're killing the coyotes that then are that are eating the rats that are sick oh okay so a mountain line wouldn't eat a rat i mean they might but for them to eat enough rats they're not just sitting there focusing on rats it's really not a big enough prey source for right so they're they're definitely focusing more on the coyotes and the bigger prey I can't believe there's that many mountain lines in the Santa Monica Mountains.

[527] That's crazy.

[528] And these are collared mountain lines, correct?

[529] Not all of them.

[530] There's definitely some out there that are uncolored.

[531] We can only get what we can capture.

[532] And so like when you make an estimate of like, would you say 15?

[533] Is that what you said?

[534] We think that's our upper size limit.

[535] How many of them are collared?

[536] I think right now we're around eight or nine.

[537] Yeah, I wish Jeff was in here.

[538] He could answer these questions a lot better than me because, like I said.

[539] I'll get Jeff in here next time.

[540] Yeah, it's so fascinating because California is such a unique area in that we are very urban, you know, but we're real spread out, and we've got these Santa Monica Mountains right there, like in Topanga, right there.

[541] I mean, I have a buddy who lives in Topanga.

[542] You go in his backyard, you would swear to God you're in Colorado or something.

[543] I mean, it just, it seems like the wilderness.

[544] Yeah, the mountains are amazing.

[545] I mean, it's 155 ,000 acres.

[546] Oh, Jamie's got a map he pulled up.

[547] of all the mountain lines.

[548] Ah, look at them all.

[549] Jesus.

[550] So obviously the Santa Monica Mountains are just there south of the 101.

[551] Basically, so the park is basically from the Hollywood Hills, out the point Magoo, and then incorporates most of Malibu, and then it goes a little bit up in the seamy hills.

[552] But the mountains themselves are mostly south of 101.

[553] This is such a unique place to live, that we're so sort of surrounded by nature in a lot of ways.

[554] And there's so many different places like you could go to Big Bear in an hour and a half, and You're in the woods.

[555] I mean, you are literally in the wilderness.

[556] That's a great thing about L .A. That's why we all like living here, right?

[557] It's pretty cool.

[558] It's pretty cool.

[559] But people are super uncomfortable with the fact that this wildlife sort of interfaces with our urban environment.

[560] And that's where guys like you come in, right?

[561] Yeah, I mean, we're hoping to help reduce some of these conflicts.

[562] And a lot of it comes to what we do.

[563] It's not so much with animals.

[564] I mean, with coyotes, a huge amount of the issues are because somebody next door to use feeding them.

[565] And so the coyotes hanging around more than it should.

[566] Is that really common, like, the people leave out food?

[567] Yeah, sometimes it's intentional.

[568] Sometimes it's not.

[569] Like, feeding your dog outside, it's never a good idea.

[570] Having fruit trees in your backyard that are just dropping fruit constantly and no one's picking it up or cleaning it up.

[571] That's all attracting.

[572] So it's all bringing in coyotes, raccoons, possums, skunks.

[573] All these animals are coming in and take advantage of that stuff.

[574] Do you think they eat olives?

[575] Have we seen olives?

[576] Probably would take advantage of them here and there, but I don't think it's like a super big food source for them.

[577] I haven't seen any spots, so we've been doing this diet study for a little while now, and olives are not one that pops up regularly.

[578] Because my dogs eat them.

[579] That's what I'm asking.

[580] My dogs catch them when they fall out of trees, and it's the same yard, obviously, where the coyotes had been visiting.

[581] Yeah, I mean, I wouldn't rule it out.

[582] But definitely, if you have anything like figs, we find tons of figs in their scat.

[583] Figs are a big one.

[584] So they really like figs.

[585] They do.

[586] And figs fruit twice a year, a lot of the varieties of figs, and so they're a lot.

[587] So the coyotes just kind of learn to key in on them.

[588] Oh, okay.

[589] And probably a lot of calories.

[590] They're two for them, right?

[591] Exactly.

[592] What are those little tiny red berries that they like to eat?

[593] Piracantha, maybe.

[594] Is that what it is?

[595] I think so.

[596] And that's not even edible to humans, right?

[597] I don't think so.

[598] But coyotes can eat them.

[599] Yeah.

[600] I mean, whether it's edible to us or whether we would want to eat them is the different question, I guess.

[601] Yeah, they're out.

[602] They're out there's a lot of.

[603] Exactly.

[604] They're eating a lot of things that we would not touch.

[605] Yeah, no kidding.

[606] I mean, they go off, pick stuff up off the road, nasty little.

[607] It looks like just putty on the road.

[608] I've seen them grab stuff.

[609] I've seen, I mean, coyotes, they're just, they're crazy.

[610] I mean, there's a lot of these talk about kites going after cats and all that, and there's no question they eat cats.

[611] I've seen them.

[612] One of our collared animals was actually eating a cat.

[613] Ed and two of its packmates were sitting there just eating this cat in somebody's front yard, which I'd never seen.

[614] I knew they ate them.

[615] Have you seen that video of the coyote eating the cat that someone captured in Los Angeles?

[616] I don't think so.

[617] It's a great video.

[618] Yeah.

[619] Because these people from their car are filming this coyote that's right there on the street in busy L .A. and it's just staring at people, chewing on this cat.

[620] And it's like, ooh, Jesus Christ.

[621] We played it for Dan Flores, and Dan has the opinion.

[622] He's of the opinion that a lot of these cats that are getting killed by these coyotes, like here's some coyotes just wandering across the street.

[623] I mean, this is really crazy because this is as urban as it gets.

[624] I mean, busy street, and this coyote just hanging out.

[625] And so these people followed this coyote all around the street.

[626] Does it look like that as a collar?

[627] Why don't I see?

[628] No, no collar.

[629] But Dan thinks that the coyotes are eating the cats because they're competitive predators.

[630] So that has definitely been seen with things like foxes.

[631] There he is.

[632] Just chilling, eating a cat right in front of everybody.

[633] I mean, that's crazy.

[634] Did they actually see it?

[635] I'm guessing they didn't see it actually catch the cat.

[636] No, because the cat's stiff.

[637] See how stiff that cat is?

[638] That cat looks like it's been dead for quite a while.

[639] But he's just chewing on that cat in front of everybody.

[640] Yeah, that coyote actually, you see how its face looks kind of bald?

[641] That coyote may actually have mange.

[642] And you think that could be from rat poison?

[643] With the coyotes, it's a little more complicated than that.

[644] We think it's a different type of mange they get.

[645] So we don't think that's directly tied to rat poisons.

[646] It could be still, but it's kind of uncertain with those guys.

[647] And some of it is because of bugs as well, right?

[648] So mange is actually caused by a mite.

[649] Yeah.

[650] And it just irritates their skin and they end up scratching their own fur off.

[651] Oh, that's it?

[652] Yeah.

[653] Really?

[654] Yep.

[655] I thought it just, look at that one cat.

[656] It's like, oh, that's my friend.

[657] Dude, that cat is so crazy.

[658] He's just sitting there watching this coyote.

[659] Yeah.

[660] So what a dumb cat.

[661] Well, I saw a cat in the middle of a street.

[662] A coyote was walking down the street.

[663] I thought it was a bag of garbage.

[664] I was about 100 yards away.

[665] And I was sitting here watching this coyote go to it.

[666] I was like, oh, the coyote's going to get in this garbage.

[667] Next thing I know this coyot circles at three times, walks off.

[668] All suddenly the thing jumps up and walks away.

[669] I was like, whoa, did I just see that?

[670] Wow.

[671] not believe it like because even like I know it's complicated but I was like that was a pretty easy prey they could have just grabbed it so are coyotes much faster than cast is that what it is well in that scenario it didn't have to be faster the cat was just laying there right like it could have grabbed it at any point yeah I wonder why the cat felt calm enough to do that yeah I don't know and why the coyote didn't go after it I have no idea I think it's just it's just not that simple that they go after every single cat yeah well they obviously don't right yeah now you so you say that it is fairly common that people feed them it is i've just with tracking these animals i've been to a bunch of places where people feel like they need to put dog food or cat food out on the street just for the coyotes or the skunks or the raccoons or whatever they're feeding something intentionally out there and then the coyotes are taking advantage and do you talk to these people do you have to have so i will occasionally it usually i just tell animal services about it and they'll talk to them or if it's somebody i'm like already having some sort of communication with i'll definitely be like you don't really need to feed these guys they're They're doing fine on their own.

[672] Yeah.

[673] All you're doing is encouraging them to come here.

[674] Yeah, do they get that?

[675] Do you deal with some nutty animal people that don't get that?

[676] Yeah, we definitely deal with some people that don't understand.

[677] They feel like these animals are going to starve to death or die of dehydration if they don't put that bowl of water out there.

[678] Oh, that's so crazy.

[679] So, yeah.

[680] Dan Flores had a woman who came to him and was doing a documentary on saving the coyote.

[681] Yeah.

[682] And he was like, I don't think you understand.

[683] Like, they're doing great.

[684] Yeah.

[685] They've expanded their range incredibly.

[686] Like, they're living in every big city around.

[687] I mean, from New York, Chicago, Toronto.

[688] Yeah, that's insane.

[689] Yeah.

[690] It's crazy.

[691] They're everywhere.

[692] Yeah, they literally are in every state, in every city, in the entire country, except Hawaii.

[693] Except Hawaii, yep.

[694] But that is so bizarre to think that they're in Queens.

[695] They've found them in the Bronx.

[696] Yeah.

[697] Well, it's amazing.

[698] They've expanded their range over a fairly short time span, too.

[699] Yeah.

[700] It's really just since Europeans have been here.

[701] that they've been able to kind of expand out and do that.

[702] And that's through all this time I was trying to kill them and all that.

[703] And so I get a lot of people that want to remove coyotes from the urban environments.

[704] I'm like, well, we've been trying to do that for a long time, and it's not working.

[705] What is the solution then?

[706] The solution is just to sort of mitigate their impact on us?

[707] Well, I think we need to change what we do, yeah.

[708] I mean, it's about not making sure we don't have food out there.

[709] I mean, the more food they have, it's been shown coyotes can increase their litter sizes, and so they produce more coyotes.

[710] and so it's it's really about trying to reduce the amount of food that we are responsible for that's also what I read in Dan Flores' book that the more we impact the coyotes as far as like people trying to push them out and pressure them the more they produce extra babies like especially if they do that roll call thing when they scream out in the night and you hear them which is amazing that is one of my favorite things about coyotes man when I'm out at night and like you know like you're sitting on the deck like having a cup of coffee or something And you hear, ah, you're like, wow, this is wild.

[711] Like, they are really out here, like, grinding.

[712] Yeah, it makes you feel you're actually out in the wild a little bit.

[713] Yeah, a little bit.

[714] Even though, like, you're sitting on your deck, listening to music.

[715] Exactly.

[716] Yeah, also the tiths are going off.

[717] Yeah, drinking a nice cup of coffee or something.

[718] Yeah.

[719] It's just, it's such a unique relationship that we have with that one predator, where it's like, I like them around.

[720] Like, I would be really weird if that was.

[721] You know, any other kind of, like, scary predator.

[722] But coyotes are kind of cool to have around.

[723] Yeah.

[724] Yeah, I mean, definitely, I think the same way.

[725] A lot of people may not feel quite the same when they're dinnying in their backyard, but I don't know.

[726] Yeah, I get that.

[727] Yeah.

[728] I do, too.

[729] I mean, I'm a dog lover.

[730] I've got chickens.

[731] I've got all these things that coyotes could affect me as well.

[732] But I also realize that there's things I can do to make sure that they're not going to get to my chickens or they're not going to get to my dogs.

[733] Well, I have a puppy right now, and that's my big fear.

[734] It's because I have a golden retriever puppy, and he is like, golden retrievers, I don't if you ever had one.

[735] They are like the most non -dog dogs.

[736] Like, they don't bark at anybody.

[737] They're terrible watchdogs.

[738] They love everybody.

[739] And they just have zero killer instinct, like zero.

[740] They're just sweethearts.

[741] And I'm just worried that he's going to get jacked.

[742] Yeah, I mean, I would definitely keep him secure until he gets up to that 40, 50 pound range.

[743] Right.

[744] he's there they're generally pretty safe yeah so now they do sometimes ambush him though right it happens it's rare usually most of the attacks are smaller dogs however there are definitely cases where they've gone even after something as big as your mastiff that's crazy i mean it's pretty rare that happens um the whole coyote dog thing's complicated i bet you if you google dogs and coyotes playing on youtube you would find a dozen videos very quickly yeah yeah because we've actually looked at some of that and it's just like that relationship's not as simple as just like they're going to go after the dogs no they play around together but then they'll kill them and eat them which is just like what kind of relationship do we have man yeah well and we don't know how often they actually eat them we think sometimes they just kill them and carry them off because that's the same thing they do with foxes really yeah so like gray foxes and red foxes the coyotes will kill them but they generally don't eat them which when you start thinking ecologically it makes sense right like they're so related that there's lots of diseases that could be transmitted between them so it's kind of a risk anytime you eat something that's very closely related to you oh that's fascinating so essentially the same thing is like a mad cow disease exactly which is comes from the prions which is we feed cows cow material and then they get that what is it called jacobs crutzfeld disease i think that's right and which is the same disease that they find in cannibals in um where is it what country is it that they find that in Indonesia I forget where it is But That's interesting That's essentially the same thing Same yeah Yeah I mean anytime you start And that's just one disease I mean there's lots of parasites and stuff too That if you're They transfer between Similarly related species Much easier than it does to Say between a cat and a dog Wow So I mean there's a lot of spillover And zoonotic diseases between wildlife And domestic animals Luckily we have lots of vaccinations for things I'm sure you've heard of like parvo and distemper yeah um and so there's there's vaccinations we can give our animals to take care of that obviously these wild animals just have to deal with it yeah distemper is very common right I had a dog parvo is too down yeah but in parvo's it's also deadly to puppies right they get that exactly uh parvo is very common in this area we actually not just right down the street here we lost some pups to parvo and is this uh something that's transmitted through wildlife as well it can be yeah so we're not exactly sure if it's only wildlife to domestic it's probably both it's probably being moved between the different populations so i mean luckily if we vaccinate well we can reduce that spread but people have to be good about vaccinating their animals so do you guys have a mandate like when it comes to studying uh coyotes and when it comes to dealing with them like what is the overall emphasis on is it on just understanding their range where they are or is it do you try to do something with them?

[745] So our role is to try to help protect wildlife within national park areas.

[746] And so what we try to do is we try to get as most understanding we can so we can help reduce conflicts, help reduce disease transmissions, just basically help the whole ecology of these animals to make sure there's not things coming into our populations that are going to end up affecting them.

[747] It's interesting because I would think like when people start cutting budgets and And they start looking for, like, well, where can we reduce spending?

[748] Like, there might be a few people that come along go, hey, why do we give a shit about these coyotes?

[749] You know, does that come up?

[750] I mean, that always comes up any time budgets are dealt with.

[751] But for us, the important thing for us is just to make sure that we do everything we can to protect our resources within our park.

[752] And so we've identified that this is a potential risk for our local wildlife.

[753] And so that's why we've started studying the things like the mountain lions, the bobcats.

[754] So our park is completely surrounded by urbanization.

[755] We have lots of influences.

[756] I mean, our mountains are about 50 % of it is privately owned.

[757] And so there's a lot of chances for development.

[758] So it's important for us to understand how development is affecting the wildlife.

[759] So we can help try to mitigate that in the future.

[760] That's awesome.

[761] Now, when you're dealing with these animals and you're collecting data and information, do you guys share it with people that maybe other peers that you have?

[762] that work in much larger areas, and do you find, like, similar patterns and similar results?

[763] So we generally share through scientific publications is usually how stuff is shared kind of between us.

[764] That being said, we definitely talk to other parks like Yosemite.

[765] I just recently went there to help them do some raccoon stuff, and so we will definitely share information to try to help deal with similar issues.

[766] So I was up there for about three or four days, and we talked about lots of different things, but one of the things they've had with coyotes is people feeding them out of the car.

[767] So, like, people drive through, they'll take food because the coyote's hanging off nearby and they'll throw it out the car to the coyote.

[768] Well, the coyote got so habituated to that.

[769] It would just be coming up to every car and start jumping up on cars.

[770] Whoa.

[771] And so they're like, this is, they end up having to remove the animal because all these people just end up feeding it.

[772] They would go up and scare the thing.

[773] And they would, I think they even tried, I think they said they tried to paintball it.

[774] But it ended up learning who they were.

[775] Like, they learned their cars, learned who they were.

[776] So every time they would come up, the coyot would disappear.

[777] back into the bushes, even if they tried it in their own cars.

[778] But it would still do it to the public.

[779] Even if they came in their own cars, the coyote recognized them?

[780] Yeah, over time, it ended up learning to recognize the people.

[781] They're too smart.

[782] They are.

[783] Wow, that's so interesting.

[784] Yeah.

[785] And I definitely noticed that even like with trapping and stuff, when we're trying to capture these animals, I feel like there's times when they definitely kind of avoid the area because some of these animals have been on the air for years.

[786] And so we try to capture them as many times as we can to keep them on there.

[787] So our callers only generally last somewhere between a year and three years, depending what kind of collar we put on them.

[788] And so a lot of times we want to keep them on long term, so we actually understand the whole life cycle what's going on.

[789] And so we'll go in and try to capture them again.

[790] But they're smart.

[791] They kind of learn to avoid once I start going into an area.

[792] Well, according to Dan Flora is a big part of their cleverness, and also their adaptability comes from them being preyed upon by gray wolves and their relationship with gray wolves.

[793] The gray wolves had left and then come back to North America.

[794] And in the meantime, coyotes had kind of thrived.

[795] and when they came back there was a period of thousands of years of them being preyed upon by these gray wolves so they've adapted all these different sort of mechanisms in order to stay alive and to avoid predation and one of them being that they expand their range so as we've tried to kill them one of the things that dan was saying is that when they do that roll call thing if someone's missing the female will actually have larger litters and then they'll expand their range so when you shoot one you think like well Well, keeping the coyote population down.

[796] No, you probably raised it up by like 10, 15%, and you expanded their range by a few miles.

[797] Yeah, I don't know if it's just based off the calling.

[798] I've heard that before, and there's some dispute about whether that's the full case or not.

[799] But definitely because there's lower numbers, there's definitely more food resources available.

[800] And so it makes sense that they would then reproduce more, because we definitely know if food resources go up, coyotes can increase their numbers.

[801] Oh, that's interesting because he was saying that it's a direct result of them being preyed upon.

[802] You think that's probably in dispute?

[803] Well, the preyed upon, I mean, shot or killed or, you know, removed.

[804] I mean, truthfully, it doesn't matter how the animals, how the population decreases.

[805] The fact is that it's down, so then prey numbers go up.

[806] Oh.

[807] And so then there's more prey, and so then they reproduce more.

[808] Because Dan was implying this is a direct correlation between there's a physiological event that happens inside the female, that when the population grows smaller, their litters grow larger.

[809] in response to the population being smaller, not necessarily in response to the increase of food supply?

[810] As far as I know, the only things I've read, it's usually they're associated somehow with food supply.

[811] So it's probably maybe a combination of those factors?

[812] It very well could be.

[813] I mean, it's complicated, right?

[814] These animals are crazy with what they can do.

[815] It is absolutely fascinating how adaptable they are, though.

[816] Is there anything like them?

[817] I mean, you start thinking of things like crows.

[818] They can be pretty adaptable to.

[819] They can live in a wide variety of areas.

[820] But they move through 3D space.

[821] They move through the air.

[822] That's a different sort of bargain.

[823] Yeah, no, I mean, the coyotes, they definitely, there's not any other species that's been able to move around the country like they have.

[824] They're able to live in the most urban environments we can imagine.

[825] I mean, places that people generally think of maybe raccoon be able to live.

[826] I know in Chicago, they've gone into areas where they have coyotes living, and they did not have raccoons living in those same locations.

[827] Or if there were, they were, raccoons were very rare.

[828] And yet the coyotes seem to be able to be able to.

[829] Which is amazing for an animal that size.

[830] It just shows how intelligent they are to be able to move around us and be able to take advantage of us.

[831] Is it because they run faster?

[832] They're just, it's probably a combination of things.

[833] They learn how to deal with roads.

[834] I mean, anytime you get in these urban environments.

[835] Right.

[836] Like one thing I always like to say, it's like the Westlake neighborhood.

[837] It's one of the most dangerous neighborhoods for pedestrians.

[838] Yet this coyote's running this neighborhood all the time.

[839] And it didn't have any signs of ever being struck by a car.

[840] Do you think the smartest coyote is smarter than the dumbest person?

[841] Whoa.

[842] That's deep.

[843] Nice, yeah.

[844] That is deep.

[845] Yeah, I mean, they live in places that I don't know if I could live there.

[846] Wow.

[847] Now, what city has, is there any city in the country that actually has a legitimate problem with coyotes?

[848] Depends what you talk to.

[849] I mean, L .A., we definitely have our issues.

[850] Right.

[851] I mean, there's been bites.

[852] There's been other situations.

[853] Has there been bites?

[854] People have been bitten?

[855] Yeah.

[856] Yeah, Legion Park had some bites.

[857] There's been bites down in Orange County.

[858] Irvine had some bites.

[859] Are they biting homeless people?

[860] Are they biting people who take naps?

[861] What are they doing?

[862] It's all over the board.

[863] Usually it seems to be tied to people who've been feeding it.

[864] And so it's almost coming up and biting like people on the hands or people on the leg.

[865] I don't think any of them, none of the ones I've heard have been like where they're trying to take the person down.

[866] Really?

[867] Type thing.

[868] They've all been more like where they're coming up and.

[869] Oh, none of them have.

[870] You heard about that woman who was a folk singer in Canada that got killed a couple years back by coyotes?

[871] Yeah, I actually went up there.

[872] a couple years after that, they actually got a study going on coyotes up there.

[873] They radio collared a bunch, and I went up there and helped him capture the first couple animals to kind of see what's going on.

[874] And that's just a crazy scenario up there.

[875] It's way different than what we see down here.

[876] The coyotes first are their eastern coyotes, so they're a little bit bigger.

[877] But there's very few food sources up there.

[878] They're dealing with snowshoe hairs, which their cycles kind of fluctuate up and down.

[879] And so sometimes there could be tons of food, and other times there could be almost none.

[880] But they've learned that they can take advantage of moose during the winter, and they're actually killing moose in the snow, which you'd think of this little 40 -ish -pound animal taken on this huge moose.

[881] But they're seeing it.

[882] They do these snow surveys, and they're finding these dead moose that were very clearly killed by coyotes.

[883] Wow.

[884] So a full -grown moose?

[885] Yeah.

[886] That's insane.

[887] Yeah.

[888] A full -grown moose is like more than a thousand pounds.

[889] Yeah.

[890] Yeah, I know.

[891] It's amazing.

[892] I mean, obviously, these moose in the winter, the snow gets deep, so they're definitely, they can get stuck in things.

[893] and that type of scenario.

[894] How do they know that it's coyotes that killed them and not wolves?

[895] There's no wolves there.

[896] Wow.

[897] That's crazy.

[898] Yeah.

[899] I did not know that a coyote could kill a fucking moose.

[900] Yeah, well, and they had them radio collared, so they were able to see the coyotes at the carcasses and stuff too.

[901] Wow.

[902] So when they have the radio caller, how much information are they getting?

[903] Do they get, like, a full, like if you could see a map, would you see, like, the trail, like, everywhere they go?

[904] It depends.

[905] So the collars have different settings.

[906] So they're GPS units.

[907] So there's always a trade -off between battery life and the number of locations you can get.

[908] So you could, if you only cared about a two -week span, you could have that GPS unit take a location every 30 seconds.

[909] And you could map it out.

[910] But generally, we're interested in a broader time frame.

[911] So a lot of times we're getting, so like the lions, a lot of times it's about eight locations a day.

[912] And that's a pretty good size caller.

[913] On the coyotes, I usually do somewhere around six.

[914] and then I'll do these little bouts where I'll do 20 -minute locations a day and so then I'll get more intense data and then I can map out like where they come up to roads or where they do different things where they're feeding so yeah you can get some pretty detailed data on how they're moving so what kind of a battery source are you using on these collars that you can get such a long like how long does a like if you stretch it out the longest how long can they last?

[915] So there's different sizes of collars and so like the lion collars are they can be two desal batteries in them, which are just lithium diesel batteries.

[916] And those go about two years with a 2D cell battery.

[917] Wow.

[918] You can put them on tiny little things.

[919] I mean, people have done, not with GPS yet, I don't believe, but they've even done like little bugs where they've put the, so the callers have two different things.

[920] They have a GPS and they have a VHF function.

[921] The VHF allows us to actually go out and track the animals.

[922] So when you see the biologists out there with those antennas.

[923] Oh, so you literally know where they are.

[924] They are, yeah.

[925] So that's how like a lot of these observations I've talked about.

[926] That's how I see them is because they have that little beacon that goes off in their collar.

[927] And so I can track them with that antenna and see where they are and get pretty close to them and see what they're doing.

[928] That's incredible.

[929] They literally last two years with two decal batteries.

[930] Yep.

[931] And then when the two years are up, then you don't know where he is.

[932] Exactly.

[933] Fuck that.

[934] Well, what's amazing about the lions is that we can recapture them.

[935] We have really good success.

[936] We're getting those guys back.

[937] And so Jeff's been amazing.

[938] I mean, he's been able to get these animals time after time after time.

[939] And that's why, like, P -22 has been captured so we have to replace the collar.

[940] Right.

[941] So it's usually about every two years.

[942] We have to replace the collar so god so how are they tranking that cat um i mean they're we've done multiple things we've gotten lucky one time and he was actually down in a hole and me and jeff were actually there and we darted the thing and it just fell asleep in the hole which was pretty sweet so you saw in a hole like a hole in the ground it was kind of a drainage channel was kind of eroded away and he was kind of down in this and there's a bunch of brush covering it and so he felt pretty comfortable i guess and he just stayed there.

[943] And so we were hiking into, I don't know if we were looking for a kill or if we were just checking on him.

[944] I can't remember what we were doing, but whatever, we saw him.

[945] And so we're like, well, let's try to dart him.

[946] And so I stood there and waited for Jeff to go get the stuff and Jeff was able to dart him when he came back.

[947] And the cat just laid there.

[948] Like, we put a dart in him.

[949] He growled out us.

[950] He laid back down and fell asleep and we were able to process him.

[951] How creepy is when a cat growls at you?

[952] It was actually pretty freaking cool.

[953] Like, I mean, it's pretty amazing You're not close to such a big animal How far away were you?

[954] Probably from me to your wall Oh, no. Really?

[955] Yeah.

[956] Oh, my God.

[957] Oh, my God.

[958] Do you have a backup gun or a taser or a...

[959] We carry pepper spray.

[960] Captain America Shield?

[961] Something.

[962] Yeah, I'm out there with my Captain America Shield.

[963] Come on, I got you.

[964] I would think that that would actually be a good move for a cat, right?

[965] Like a big old, like gladiator shield.

[966] And they'd probably be confused.

[967] They'd try to jack you.

[968] Bang, they run into the shield.

[969] Where is he?

[970] Nice.

[971] Yeah, I don't think I want to carry that through the brush, though.

[972] That's a good point.

[973] No, we do carry bear spray.

[974] Does that work?

[975] I mean, we haven't had to use it, so I couldn't tell you.

[976] Oh, Jesus, use it once and tell me. Because I was thinking, like, I run through the hills.

[977] I was thinking, you know, there's an area where I run where it's really desolate.

[978] There's no one out there.

[979] And I know there's bobcats there.

[980] but I also now know that there's a mountain line there because a buddy of mine saw a mountain line there and it had a collar and then he heard about a mountain line that got killed on the five freeway and he checked a website is there a website that shows you the track like where the animal's been?

[981] There are that we can see.

[982] We don't share that with other people.

[983] I wonder how he found out.

[984] He knows a lot of people.

[985] Maybe he asked somebody.

[986] But found out that It was the mountain line that he saw in his neighborhood.

[987] And he lives pretty close to the five.

[988] Okay.

[989] And so he was explaining that, you know, like, he saw it.

[990] Yeah, I mean, we don't have many cats that are up there near the five.

[991] So probably, he could have probably just looked at that map that you guys put up there even and it could have easily been one of those cats.

[992] Okay.

[993] Because there's just not many up in that area that we have collared.

[994] But they do occasionally get hit by cars, right?

[995] Yeah, that's actually one of our biggest causes of mortality these days is them getting hit by cars.

[996] So we work a lot with Caltrans to try to improve permeability.

[997] of the roadways for wildlife and protect them from being hit by cars i know there was a ramp that was being proposed that they were going to put a ramp over the highway right oh here it is yeah caltrans proposes wildlife overpass on the 101 freeway now where were they kind of try to put that so this is supposed to be near liberty canyon this is where's liberty canyon um it's just a little bit west of here near uh agora oh okay um yeah so this this overpass will be big from outlines but also lots of other wild life in our mountains.

[998] So we have seen that the 101 freeway is a major barrier to gene flow.

[999] And so things like even coyotes, even though they're able to live in this super urban environment, that 101 and the development along 101 is serving as a barrier that they're not getting across regularly enough to keep the population genetics up.

[1000] So genetic diversity south of the freeway is a lot lower than genetic diversity north of the freeway.

[1001] Right, right.

[1002] And that's for bobcats, mountain lions, and coyotes.

[1003] I have a friend who works at the Tahoe ranch.

[1004] Do you know where that is?

[1005] Yeah, I have a buddy that works there too.

[1006] Oh, do you?

[1007] Yeah, I was actually just there this weekend.

[1008] And they were explaining to me that they had a camera trap on one of the water holes, and they saw 16 different mountain lions.

[1009] Wow.

[1010] They've got 16 photos of 16 different cats that are on that.

[1011] Me, a huge ranch, 270 ,000 acres.

[1012] It's enormous ranch.

[1013] Yeah.

[1014] Yeah, I don't know how they could identify each individual lion.

[1015] That's my first question.

[1016] Yeah, that's a good question.

[1017] But, yeah, Mount lions, they can be quite a few of them.

[1018] I mean, a lot of times with mountain lions will come back, obviously, especially with the thing, like a water source there.

[1019] Right.

[1020] So I would question whether it was different or not.

[1021] But, yeah, I mean, it's a place like the hone.

[1022] I mean, it's amazing, right?

[1023] There's lots of different prey animals there.

[1024] Oh, yeah.

[1025] From elk to deer to lots of other.

[1026] It is.

[1027] It's really crazy.

[1028] Yeah.

[1029] Just, I mean, everything, the wildlife, the flowers, the pigs, like, it's just a crazy, crazy place.

[1030] It is.

[1031] There's so many pigs there.

[1032] It's a nutty farm.

[1033] I mean, a nutty ranch.

[1034] But it's so large.

[1035] It's just amazing.

[1036] Like my buddy's a cowboy up there, and so he took me for a tour to kind of see the ranch, and it's amazing.

[1037] Yeah, well, it's the biggest ranch in California.

[1038] Yeah.

[1039] 270 ,000 acres is almost hard to, like, wrap your head around how big it is.

[1040] But when you're there, and I go, how far does it go?

[1041] And then you go, see that third mountain range?

[1042] We go to that.

[1043] You're like, what?

[1044] Yeah.

[1045] Over to the desert.

[1046] Yeah.

[1047] Yeah.

[1048] It's crazy.

[1049] It's everywhere.

[1050] And then the water for Los Angeles.

[1051] goes through it.

[1052] Ever see that gigantic water pipe that goes through the ranch?

[1053] Yeah.

[1054] Yeah, and you go, what?

[1055] That's where all the water goes?

[1056] It goes through this thing?

[1057] It's just crazy.

[1058] Yeah, it's amazing.

[1059] Yeah.

[1060] Well, it's weird that we have a place that's an hour and a half outside of L .A. that has elk.

[1061] I know.

[1062] And that's, like, we're so lucky.

[1063] Like, it's such a unique spot.

[1064] In a lot of ways.

[1065] Yeah, it's amazing.

[1066] I mean, used to be tons of elk here, right?

[1067] Like, all the Tully elk.

[1068] I mean, they used to cover the whole area.

[1069] Yeah.

[1070] Stories of Tully Elk out in the San Joaquin Valley there.

[1071] It's just amazing numbers of elk.

[1072] Yeah.

[1073] Well, also grizzly bears.

[1074] And grizzlies, yeah.

[1075] That's just, there's a town up near Tahone that's named after the last guy that got killed by a grizzly bear in California before they wiped him out.

[1076] God, I'm trying to remember.

[1077] I'm trying to remember the town's name.

[1078] Damn it.

[1079] But it's been confirmed that he was killed.

[1080] they actually exhumed his body and found it, you know, broken up into pieces and one of his legs was chewed off.

[1081] Like it was, like he really did get jacked by a grizzly bear.

[1082] Apparently we had enormous coastal bears.

[1083] Yeah.

[1084] And that's why they wiped them out.

[1085] It was just like when the settlers came here, they were like, okay, fuck this.

[1086] We've got to kill these goddamn things.

[1087] Because they were like, you know, codyacized.

[1088] Yeah.

[1089] Enormous bears.

[1090] But obviously they did a good job since we don't have a single grizzly left in California.

[1091] Yeah, that's one animal, Lebeck.

[1092] Thank you, Jamie.

[1093] Lebeck.

[1094] that's that's one animal where people are not clamoring for a reintroduction yeah you know like well truthfully there's no area left for them yeah like the area that grizzlies occurred we've developed turned in agriculture urbanization so bringing grizzlies back i mean you hear it every once in while somebody say that but i'm like it's they're too big and they need too much food yeah and too much of that food is living animals and uh that would be a problem yeah well even if that's i mean even all that If there's no habitat, where do you put them?

[1095] They're not going to go live up in the high mountains.

[1096] That's what we have protected is the Sierra is in those type areas.

[1097] That's not grizzly habitat.

[1098] Well, we do have quite a bit of black bears, right?

[1099] We do.

[1100] But they can live up in the mountains.

[1101] They do much better in that scenario.

[1102] Yeah, and it's really fascinating to me how the whole thing is sort of like a balanced system.

[1103] And they all sort of keep each other in check.

[1104] You know, California is a good example of that because it's one of the few states that has a large, healthy mountain line population, but they don't allow hunting of mountain lines.

[1105] So because of that, you have less deer.

[1106] And people will complain about that, hunters, but also because of that, you have less car accidents with deer.

[1107] Like, if you live in, like, I have a buddy who lives in Iowa, you have to drive slow because the fucking deer just jumping out in front of the road every 50, 100 yards.

[1108] I mean, it's crazy how many, especially during the rut when they're breeding and they get silly.

[1109] You see just dead deer every couple miles.

[1110] I'll see a dead deer on the side of the road.

[1111] Yeah, I mean, we're a lot different, obviously, than the Midwest, like you're talking about, too.

[1112] We've got a lot less vegetation or a lot less rain, so we have a lot less of that good quality vegetation for the deer.

[1113] So our deer numbers are also going to be in check, partially just because we don't have the highest quality habitat for deer in most of our areas.

[1114] They're just eating grass and stuff, right?

[1115] Like, what do they eat?

[1116] They eat a lot of brows, a lot of brush type stuff.

[1117] They eat a lot of sage, right?

[1118] They eat a lot of sage.

[1119] They can definitely eat sage.

[1120] There's a lot of, like, deer brush and just lots of variety of type of broad.

[1121] I mean, you walk through there, there's tons of different varieties that they eat.

[1122] We actually have a couple deer radio caller right now that we're following, and they're always browsing on something when I see them, usually something taller.

[1123] And how do you capture them?

[1124] We dart them.

[1125] So do you set, like, do you trap them and then dart them?

[1126] No, we free dart them.

[1127] Okay, so how do you do that?

[1128] You basically just try to find where they're at.

[1129] I mean, it's basically hunting.

[1130] We're basically hunting with a dart rifle, so it's a lot like archery, basically.

[1131] your range has to be like really short right yeah so somebody really go at the dart rifle can probably get up to 70 meters or so oh really um i'm not that person i'm about 30 meters with mine how many deer have you darted i've only darted two here um but we're hoping we still have four more we need to do so is it an air rifle uh so there's two different types there's one that's basically powered off a c2 shell um then there's another one that's powered off co2 hmm and so do you practice with this thing like how do you get good at it.

[1132] Yeah, you practice.

[1133] I mean, it's like a rifle.

[1134] You've got a scope and all that, so you can get it all sighted in.

[1135] But the ballistics must be terrible.

[1136] Oh, they're bad.

[1137] And it's even more complicated because you want it to arch really lightly.

[1138] You want to hit the animal as soft as possible because if you hit them hard, they're going to run.

[1139] Right.

[1140] And the drug, it's not like the drug takes them down immediately.

[1141] We usually have about 10 minutes for the animal to go down.

[1142] Oh, Jesus.

[1143] She'll never find them.

[1144] Exactly.

[1145] So it's really about, like, arching that shot in there really softly, hit them as soft as possible, and then a lot of times they don't go very far.

[1146] Wow.

[1147] So, like, what's the feet per second of the dart?

[1148] Oh, I don't know.

[1149] We haven't, we don't have the chronographer.

[1150] You don't have a radar thing that you shoot it through?

[1151] We don't.

[1152] You want to borrow mine?

[1153] Sure.

[1154] Yeah, I'll lend it to you.

[1155] I want to know.

[1156] Yeah.

[1157] Because I think that's interesting.

[1158] Like, what, like, because you must have, like, a, the drop must be huge.

[1159] It is.

[1160] Like, how do you cite in a scope for something, for people to know what we're talking about?

[1161] Like, if you shoot a rifle, a bullet goes very fast, so you could shoot out to 100 yards, and it essentially is going to go exactly where you're aiming at.

[1162] But then when you go to 200 yards, it gets a little tricky, and you have to adjust your scope because it'll drop a little bit.

[1163] You get to 300 yards, it'll drop a little bit more.

[1164] 400 yards and out is where it gets really weird.

[1165] Like you're dealing with wind drift, you're dealing with drop.

[1166] So I would imagine that a dart is not going very fast, so it probably drops quite a bit.

[1167] It does, and it's heavy.

[1168] They're fairly long.

[1169] How many grains is it?

[1170] half inches.

[1171] I don't know how many grains they are.

[1172] They don't come in those measurements, and I've never weighed one, so I'm not positive.

[1173] But obviously, because they are going so slow, they're dealing with wind drift at five meters.

[1174] They can start doing it.

[1175] So if you're not aerodynamic either, right?

[1176] It's not horrible.

[1177] I mean, it's basically looks like a syringe with a needle on the end, and we have some feathers on the end.

[1178] Oh, so you have like fletchings to make sure you...

[1179] I wouldn't call it flechings.

[1180] That's what it looks like?

[1181] Yeah, exactly like that.

[1182] 20 ml air for 10 .0ml dart, what that mean?

[1183] So that's a, you can put 20 millimeters of air for the 10, the dart that holds 10 milliliters of drug.

[1184] Oh, I see.

[1185] So that's not the exact drug we use.

[1186] We use one called, I believe it's a new dart.

[1187] It's a little different.

[1188] It actually has a, so ours, at least the ones we use for the deer, we use these type as well.

[1189] But for the deer, we use ones that have a little charge in them.

[1190] So when it hits, it discharges basically by like a shell wood.

[1191] That's a little gunpowder in there that triggers off.

[1192] Jesus Christ.

[1193] Wow.

[1194] So you have to sneak up on these deer and then do this.

[1195] Yeah.

[1196] So I was going to tell you kind of how we adjust for that distance because that's the last question you're asking.

[1197] So the nice thing about our rifles versus a regular rifle, so you get one chill.

[1198] And that's what you go with with us because it's air powered.

[1199] We can adjust our pressure.

[1200] So to account for that distance, we know at 20 yards, we do two bars of pressure.

[1201] at 30 yards we do three bars of pressure that type of thing so we have a little bit more adjustability than typical rifle would so are you walking around with a range finder yeah and then you're you're changing it on your rifle as you go along yeah as we make our decision we because we don't like we don't walk with it charged we I mean our darts in there ready to go but we don't fire I mean we don't have our our pressure up until we know what deer we're taking in the distance and are you just aiming for center mass oh hit Hip.

[1202] Huh.

[1203] Why hip?

[1204] Because that's where the biggest muscle is.

[1205] Oh, I see.

[1206] Okay.

[1207] So the drugs enact intramuscularly.

[1208] So if you accidentally hit the ribs, it's not good.

[1209] It's not great, no. It still will probably put them to sleep.

[1210] The needles aren't long enough that it should do much damage.

[1211] It's not going to hit a vital, right?

[1212] I mean, you can't ever say never, but yeah, it shouldn't.

[1213] But it's not going to kill them.

[1214] It shouldn't.

[1215] No. And we practice a lot to make sure we hit where we want to hit.

[1216] Yeah, how do you practice that?

[1217] Do you have a rubber deer that you shoot at?

[1218] We have archery targets that we shoot at, yeah.

[1219] Wow, that's interesting.

[1220] And do you use a regular rifle scope, or do you have like a scope specifically designed for darts?

[1221] No, it's a regular rifle scope.

[1222] No kidding.

[1223] Wow.

[1224] So how often are you practicing?

[1225] Before we do it, I practice quite a few times.

[1226] I go out.

[1227] Like, I don't practice daily like you do with the archery.

[1228] Right.

[1229] But I practice pretty regularly when I, right before I was darting these last two.

[1230] We're kind of taking a break right now because they're fawning.

[1231] And so we don't want to dart them while they're, of course.

[1232] Dropping their fons.

[1233] We wanted until the fons get a little bigger.

[1234] That's interesting, man. Have you ever missed one?

[1235] Um, I haven't taken that many shots.

[1236] Did I miss any of my shots?

[1237] How many of you darted?

[1238] Just the two.

[1239] Just two.

[1240] Yeah.

[1241] And this is our first time doing deer stuff.

[1242] So fishing game came out and helped us with these guys and which was great.

[1243] And you have to dart two.

[1244] more is that what you said four more four more yep and why six is that just like you just want a good study number that so we're looking at roadways and trying to identify crossing points for i mean we're not just doing deer we're doing other species as well but we're trying to identify where we can make improvements things like that wildlife overpass in other areas so that's why we're we're doing that and so we're just trying to get a sample size that we can kind of work with and the callers aren't cheap so it's it's about resources and what we have that we can use towards the project and what And what are you trying to gather?

[1245] Like, what data?

[1246] So it's all movement -based data.

[1247] So these are GPS callers.

[1248] They transmit us.

[1249] It can be anywhere from, I think, the caller, 60 points a day, down to, I think, my low is eight points a day.

[1250] And so it'll tell me, it'll give me an idea of where the deer are approaching the roadways and how they're moving relative to the roadways so we can help come up with mitigation to improve their ability to get across.

[1251] Oh, okay.

[1252] So it's all about their migration and where they're moving around and keeping.

[1253] keeping them away from danger.

[1254] Yeah, I mean, I wouldn't quite call it migration, but close enough.

[1255] That's the idea is just to help them be able to get across.

[1256] Now, are they Columbia Blacktail?

[1257] These are not.

[1258] These are mule deer in our mountains.

[1259] Mule deer?

[1260] Yeah.

[1261] No kidding.

[1262] Yeah.

[1263] And are they, like, a pure mule deer?

[1264] I believe so.

[1265] Hmm.

[1266] Yeah, the black tail start a little bit north of us.

[1267] I don't remember exactly where the cutoff line is, but.

[1268] So, like, right around here, like in the hills and, like, in Sino and stuff like that, those are mule deer.

[1269] Those are all mule deer.

[1270] Wow, that's interesting.

[1271] Yeah.

[1272] Yeah.

[1273] always thought that too because I've deer hunted for years and I always thought blacktailed but now once I got here and started working with them I was like oh these are all mule deer and how do they make the differentiation how they understand that there's some just physical characteristic differences and I think there's been some genetic work done as well because traditionally when you think of mule deer you think of a large deer with a big rack like mule deer have enormous racks yeah like that deer right there that's a mule deer yeah like if you saw one of those around here you'd be like holy shit like you never see a deer that big around here?

[1274] No, I mean, there's some decent deer in these mountains, but yeah, it's, I mean, but not all mule deer are that big.

[1275] There's lots of places where there's mule deer that are still quite small, and that's just what we're doing with here is the smaller.

[1276] And do you think it's because of the predators, like, they never really get a chance to get that big?

[1277] Because the populations are pretty small, or it's a genetic issue?

[1278] We think it's a genetic issue.

[1279] I mean, this population's been kind of isolated for a long time from others, but California generally is not thought of to have monster bucks, even though there's.

[1280] plenty of mule deer in this state right so it's more just a factor of what's here and so north of us is where the black tail are yeah and well like where do that what does that range begin i wish i could i'm not sure up top of my head there's some sort of interbreeding correct i'm sure there is yeah yeah and they're viable or are they hybrids i would assume they're viable but i i'm not positive hmm yeah i'm not i'm definitely not fully up on all the deer literature so what other animals are you guys concerned with like their there's their safety and populations so i mean we're worried about the whole community i mean we do things with frogs salamanders we do surveys for snakes um we actually have a red -legged frog reintroduction right now a reintroduction yeah so there's people complaining not enough red -legged frogs well they used to be here and we had a well we don't really know why they disappeared but they disappeared 30 years ago or so and they were left in one little pool in one place And so we're just trying to help them get reestablished.

[1281] Dude, don't let Donald Trump find out about this.

[1282] He'll cut funding.

[1283] Red -legged frog.

[1284] What?

[1285] We need that money to go to bankers.

[1286] Yeah.

[1287] I mean, it just seems, it's fascinating to me that we do have these programs to, like, help out like a frog.

[1288] Yeah, I mean, it's all about.

[1289] Considerable man hours, right?

[1290] It takes some, but it's not huge amounts.

[1291] I mean, it's one person going out and doing these projects, and it's not like that's their only job.

[1292] They have lots of different things they do.

[1293] So it's just one small part of their job.

[1294] So they just bring like a bucket of frogs and throw them into the bushes?

[1295] It's not quite that simple.

[1296] Yeah, it's not quite that simple.

[1297] They have to move egg masses, basically, is what they do?

[1298] Oh, is that what they do?

[1299] Yeah.

[1300] Oh, so when they move the egg masses, do they move the mom as well?

[1301] Or the frogs just develop independently in this new area?

[1302] Yeah, they develop independently.

[1303] They even do that in their own area.

[1304] The mom doesn't care for their frogs or any of that.

[1305] Bidges.

[1306] Amazing bitches.

[1307] So when they do that, when you drop off these egg masses in this place, so this frog will be born or hatch in this area rather and they just assume this is where they live yep oh that's interesting so if you took a fully developed frog and put it there probably wouldn't know what to do with the area because it would be a new area for it to be like why am i here yeah this isn't my project either so i'm not 100 % on it but from my understanding is that they will try to move back towards their natal range and then they don't end up making it so it's better to do the tadpoles or the eggs and then they'll hopefully stay there that's cool so what is the benefit of having these red -legged frogs around they're just a part of the ecosystem we think it's a good idea to exactly it's just trying to protect the overall ecosystem we don't really understand i mean we like to think we understand all this ecology and all that but they're it's complicated right we don't know the interaction between a lot of these species so a lot of it's just trying to make sure that our full sweetest species is there so our ecosystems right healthy as possible so when you reintroduce the red frog will there then be subsequent studies about the impact of the reintroduction of the red frog red leg frog and it's hard to know at this point i mean it's all based off funding like there we there's potential there but right now we we don't really know all right let me uh propose this to you what if you had an unlimited budget what if i made justin brown king of the world and i said listen dude you could do whatever the fuck you want with all this money and what would you do if you make any promises here no i wish i could i wish i could obviously i don't have that kind of power yeah of course if i did though if i said listen man i'm going to give you an unlimited budget to take care of this wildlife as you would see fit.

[1308] What would you like to have done?

[1309] Well, one of the first things would be that wildlife overpass you see for our, at least if you're talking about doing things for what's good for the local ecology here, that would be probably the highest thing on my priority list, because that is something that's not just affecting one species.

[1310] It's affecting everything that's within our mountain range, which is fairly large, 150 ,000 acres that there's just completely being disconnected from other wildlife.

[1311] So to me, that's our number one thing.

[1312] The other thing is, so we have lots of issues with these poisons.

[1313] I would try to find alternatives to these poisons that are being spread throughout the environment because that's a major issue for our wildlife.

[1314] Yeah, that is a giant issue.

[1315] When you see the mange that's on that cat and you think that that all comes somehow or another from rat poison, like, whatever happened to rat traps?

[1316] Like, how would just use a trap?

[1317] Yeah, people don't like to see blood.

[1318] Is that what it is?

[1319] That's my best assumption because people, you try to recommend traps and they just won't do it.

[1320] There's such a trickle down, though, when you're using those.

[1321] toxins.

[1322] I know.

[1323] That's frightening to me because that gets to people in some way, shape, or form.

[1324] Yeah, definitely.

[1325] Yeah, it's my worry as well.

[1326] It also leaks into the ground.

[1327] Like, there's all sorts of weird effects that you can get from poisons.

[1328] Yeah, and we don't even understand the effects.

[1329] We put tons of toxicans out there that we have no idea the actual long -term effects or how it's going to change things.

[1330] I mean, like these rat poisons, there was a long time they said it wouldn't move up the food chain, but we are quite clearly seeing it move up the food chain.

[1331] To have a mountain lion die of rat poison is.

[1332] Crazy.

[1333] Yeah.

[1334] Do they die of it?

[1335] Yeah, we've had three mountain lions die of rat poison.

[1336] Wow.

[1337] And you believe it's from coyotes?

[1338] That's what we think, yeah.

[1339] Yeah.

[1340] So one of them, they went back to a few kills that it made right before it died, and they found that it killed a couple coyotes.

[1341] Oh, wow.

[1342] Wow.

[1343] And it doesn't kill the coyotes.

[1344] Uh, who knows, the coyotes could have been really sick at that point.

[1345] And maybe that's how the mountain lion got it anyway.

[1346] Exactly.

[1347] So because with these poisons, a lot of times these animals don't die for four to 10 days.

[1348] Oh, good.

[1349] God, really?

[1350] And so they're walking circles.

[1351] I don't know if you've ever seen, like, rats walking circles out around any of buildings.

[1352] Like, I've seen it a couple times out walking around.

[1353] And that's generally what they're dying of.

[1354] They're dying of dehydration, basically, because they're just bleeding out internally.

[1355] Yeah, so.

[1356] Well, that was actually in Dan Flores' book is that they had developed certain types of coyote poisons that were slow acting so that they could trick these coyotes into eating this stuff.

[1357] And the other coyotes wouldn't know where the coyote got sick from because it took so long for them to die.

[1358] It wasn't like strict nine, where you eat it, you watch the other one die, and that's also what rats do.

[1359] Did you ever see that a rat documentary on Netflix?

[1360] I heard you mention it, but I still haven't seen it yet.

[1361] Dude, you got to watch it.

[1362] It's amazing.

[1363] It's freak me out.

[1364] It's nuts.

[1365] Like when they show the amount of rats that are in New York City and they show all the people dealing with them and they show them in the sewer system and everything, it's mind -boggling.

[1366] And then they talk about how the rats will literally send.

[1367] a young dumb rat over to the poison and they watch that rat eat the poison and die and they're like fuck this rat here and they all take off like they've got a whole system for dealing with poisons yeah well because they did the same thing with rat poisons from my understanding they they kind of come through different morph of the poison to try to make them last a little longer so because the rats will do the same thing the coyotes do and not to eat it so that didn't surprise me they saw that in documentary i'll have to watch that there's no way to mitigate the problem now I mean, the rat population is so large in New York City.

[1368] They think there's many rats as there are people or more.

[1369] Yeah, well, I believe it.

[1370] I mean, I've been in little intersections down in L .A. at night and just rats looks like the ground's moving at times and these crazy locations.

[1371] Like, most of the places you go, you don't see that many rats.

[1372] But then all of a sudden, you'll hit this called a honeyhole for rats.

[1373] Yeah.

[1374] And they'll just be like, whoa, look at what the hell's going on here?

[1375] I was in New York City way back in the day.

[1376] It was so long ago there was pay phones.

[1377] and I had to make a phone call, and I was getting gas.

[1378] So I pulled up to this gas station.

[1379] I put the pump in.

[1380] I'm filling up my car, and I go over to this payphone to make a call.

[1381] And as, I mean, in the time it took me to walk from the pump to the payphone, I'm watching rats jump onto the wheels of my car.

[1382] Like, they're jumping on the wheel and crawling up and down.

[1383] They're like, I don't know if they're looking for food or they're looking to get in the engine for warmth or whatever, but apparently people have a real issue with rats getting inside the hood of their car and, like, nesting.

[1384] Wow.

[1385] They, like, climb in there for the heat and they stay warm inside the hood of your car.

[1386] Good Lord.

[1387] Yeah, I mean, they're so adaptable, but they instantaneously did it.

[1388] I mean, I pulled the car up, put the pump in, walked, turned around, like, what the fuck?

[1389] I'm not talking about, like, one rat.

[1390] I'm talking five, six, seven rats, just hopping up and another one would hop up and one would hop down.

[1391] It was terrifying.

[1392] Because I was trying to figure out, okay, am I going to be driving?

[1393] There's going to be a rat on the floor, and then I'm going to hit the gas instead of the brakes, and I'm going to freak out like a little girl.

[1394] Yeah, it was terrifying.

[1395] Yeah, that would be creepy.

[1396] They're just so adaptable.

[1397] I mean, and it's another, essentially, we don't like to think of them as a wild animal, but a rat is a wild animal that lives in this weird symbiotic relationship with people in urban environments.

[1398] Yeah, I mean, it's amazing.

[1399] That is the one species that's probably more adapted to us than the coyotes are, obviously, because they are able to live in almost everywhere that we live.

[1400] Yeah, and they're, I mean, they serve a purpose in some sort of a weird way.

[1401] I mean, if they were removed, I wonder what the impact would be.

[1402] Yeah, I mean, I'm sure we'd probably have more nesting birds and some of that kind of stuff because we know that rats definitely impact bird species.

[1403] Yeah.

[1404] And who knows, there may not be, if there wasn't rats, whether coyotes or some of these other small predators would be around the urban areas because they're obviously another prey source.

[1405] Yeah.

[1406] But trying to get rid of rats is a whole.

[1407] another ball game.

[1408] Good luck.

[1409] That's the one that's probably harder in coyotes to get rid of.

[1410] You'd have to nuke that city.

[1411] You'd have to get everybody to agree.

[1412] And then they'd probably move back in within a couple of years.

[1413] Yeah.

[1414] Yeah, it's just, you're not going to do it.

[1415] So this proposed bridge across the 101, what is, is there a roadblock to that?

[1416] Is it a funding issue?

[1417] Is there anybody that is against it?

[1418] As far as we know, there's not anybody really against it.

[1419] There might be a few people in the nearby community that's worried about more mountain lions coming or something.

[1420] But we don't think that's.

[1421] It's a realistic thing because our population's at holding capacity from as far as we understand.

[1422] So we don't think that's going to be a major issue.

[1423] But it's really about funding.

[1424] We're trying to National Wildlife Federation's leading the charge to try to raise, I think the cost, it's over $50 million to do this.

[1425] Yeah.

[1426] So it's a big price tag.

[1427] The bridge is going to be quite wide.

[1428] It's going to be natural covered.

[1429] And it's going to have to go over the Agora Road and the 101 both.

[1430] And so it's going to be a big bridge.

[1431] bridge.

[1432] How wide is that?

[1433] Ooh, I wish I could call that off top of my head.

[1434] Yeah, sorry, you'd have to look it up.

[1435] I think it's probably on that thing you had up earlier.

[1436] So you'd probably deal with a few hundred yards or something.

[1437] Yeah, I mean, it's almost as wide as it is long.

[1438] Oh, wow.

[1439] Yeah, so it's going to be big.

[1440] It's going to also have, it's going to be used for hiking during the day as well.

[1441] So it's not just for wildlife.

[1442] Oh, so people can go across it.

[1443] Exactly.

[1444] Because currently, there's no easy way to go from the Santa Monica's in the south to the Seamy Hills in the North, which are all public property.

[1445] So there's no way to get across there so people can hike.

[1446] They have to go down on the Liberty Canyon Road and cut across there, which is kind of sucky.

[1447] So how does one raise money for something like this?

[1448] Do they try to have like a go fund me or do they just rely on the state budget?

[1449] No, it's all they're doing fundraising trying to get people to kick in.

[1450] I believe the Annenberg has already offered to donate a million dollars matching so they've got to raise another million to get that amount um it's all for the most part i believe it's all from either conservation agencies or from private donations so if you were king in the world that would be the first thing that you would work on as far as wildlife in california um definitely for our region yes what about other issues other issues i mean habitat protection is just obviously incredibly important if we want to keep all of our species so protecting more land is is always a valuable thing to make sure that or at least to make sure what development we do is done in a proper way now when you say protect more land would that be like buying up available private land when it comes for sale and then turning it into public land um to some level i would consider that i don't know if that would be my ultimate goal to me it's more important to lock it up so it's natural versus public versus private oh so like to stop uh development stop major developments from going in and putting things right in places that are going to be major blockages to wildlife movement Yeah, Boulder is kind of interesting in that way where they buy up all the available property and then turn into open space.

[1451] Yeah.

[1452] So you can't develop on it ever.

[1453] Yeah.

[1454] They're really smart with that because I think Boulder is an amazing place in that they've really recognized that they have this incredible sort of beautiful little community that's surrounded by this inescapable beauty of the mountains, the Rockies.

[1455] You don't get much more a beautiful place than around Boulder.

[1456] No. It makes sense.

[1457] I mean, if you want to keep your communities the way they are, you kind of have to be.

[1458] protect some of the land.

[1459] Yeah, they're not into anybody developing there.

[1460] They're like, nah, no, let's not do that.

[1461] It's really wise of them.

[1462] But it's amazing that they've managed, rather, to go so long without being co -opted by money, you know?

[1463] Yeah, I mean, that's kind of the name of the game.

[1464] I mean, obviously we need developments because our populations keep growing.

[1465] So to me, it's not always realistic to say we need to protect every piece of land we can protect.

[1466] Right.

[1467] What development we do, we need to do it smart and make sure that things are protected in the proper places.

[1468] Is there any other wildlife issues in and around this area that are being addressed right now?

[1469] I mean, those are the two biggest things going on that we're actively trying to deal with.

[1470] Yeah, I can't think of too many.

[1471] I mean, there's always the little nuisance issues that everybody's trying to deal with where a coyote is in somebody's yard or going after dogs or whatever that we try to deal with.

[1472] But those are the two major ones would be connectivity, habitat loss, and then just poisons.

[1473] And are there a lot of raccoons in this area?

[1474] A lot.

[1475] It depends what you're comparing it to.

[1476] Healthy population?

[1477] Yeah, there's a decent number of raccoons.

[1478] If you're comparing it to somewhere like Chicago, no, we don't have anything.

[1479] Chicago's larger population of raccoons?

[1480] Yeah, they're just much more adept there.

[1481] Just the way the landscape is, a lot more mature trees, mature forest, which is what raccoons like, a lot more.

[1482] water, which are all things that attract raccoons, where we're a lot drier.

[1483] Raccoons can occur within, like, our mountains, but they do seem to be more focused near roadways and some of that stuff, taking advantage of whatever resources are there.

[1484] Well, they're big garbage hunters, too, right?

[1485] They definitely take advantage of garbage.

[1486] They'll also eat lots of fruits and stuff.

[1487] So some of the scats you see in your yard that you think are coyotes.

[1488] They could be raccoon as well.

[1489] They eat a lot of berries and stuff.

[1490] Yeah, I found some skunk poop.

[1491] Really?

[1492] Yeah, my friend who recognized the.

[1493] mountain lion poop, I sent him some stuff, and I said, what is this?

[1494] He said, that skunk poop.

[1495] Skunks are amazing.

[1496] Like, I, before I started tracking these coyotes in downtown L .A., I would have never thought skunks could be down in that area.

[1497] There's actually a decent number of skunks.

[1498] Like, in that Westlake neighborhood, I could not believe how many skunks I was seen.

[1499] I smelled skunk in Hollywood last night.

[1500] I was driving through.

[1501] It could have been strong weed, but I don't think it was.

[1502] I'm pretty sure it was an actual skunk.

[1503] I was leaving the comedy store, and it just stunk of skunk.

[1504] And I was like, how weird that these animals have figured out a way to live right here in like right near sunset yeah i know and they're i mean little short legs not super mobile but yet these striped skunks seemed to have figured it out yeah they they were going after my chickens too the little creeps really yeah yeah they're they're apparently they like to eat chickens yeah that's interesting yeah one night i actually had a we were sitting in the house me and my wife just hanging out and all of a sudden i hear my chickens going crazy out there and i'm like we both got up and took off run and we have a lot of feral cats around our house and i was like oh this thing cats are in there.

[1505] We go looking around, our chickens are flying all over the yard because we hadn't gone out and closed the door yet, because my chickens can kind of free range my yard.

[1506] And we're looking around, we don't see anything.

[1507] Also, I open up the coop door and there's a big old possum just sitting there grinning at me. Oh, those creeps.

[1508] Oh, yeah.

[1509] So it didn't get anything.

[1510] It didn't affect, didn't grab one of my chickens, even though one of my chickens was just sitting there like looking at it and squawking.

[1511] It's like, you should be doing it.

[1512] He was trying.

[1513] He was trying, but he just didn't.

[1514] They're not very fast.

[1515] They're not.

[1516] Yeah.

[1517] With possums, like for me, They're another species you don't need a drug to handle.

[1518] You can just grab them up by the tail usually.

[1519] Oh, really?

[1520] Hold on to him, yeah.

[1521] Now, you could just run up to him and grab them?

[1522] People do.

[1523] There's definitely, there was a guy doing his master's work on possums, and he would drive around town.

[1524] And when he saw one, he'd jump out of his car, he'd be out hanging out with his friends.

[1525] He'd see a possum jump out, grab it, and cram it in his trunk.

[1526] Oh, Jesus Christ.

[1527] He'd throw it in his trunk?

[1528] Yeah, that's dedication right there.

[1529] And what did he do with it once he got it in his trunk?

[1530] He was collar in him.

[1531] He's doing kind of like what we do here, trying to identify their movements, and what's going on with him?

[1532] What did they find out?

[1533] Anything unusual?

[1534] I don't know.

[1535] I've never saw his talk.

[1536] I ran into him at a conference one time, and we got chatting about what he did, and I was like, that's pretty hilarious.

[1537] It is really weird how many animals we live around.

[1538] I mean, it's really weird.

[1539] There's so many different and such a wide variety, especially when it comes to birds.

[1540] One thing that I see a lot of is, there's a lot of hawks in my neighborhood, and we did this thing in our backyard where we had a rock.

[1541] iron fence and we changed part of it and put a glass fence and these hawks hadn't figured it out and they would swoop down and slam into the fence head first we caoed quite a few of these poor hawks yeah i can imagine yeah but it's just amazing how many you find out there and how many predators and there's the occasional golden eagle in this area too right we get reports of them coming through every once in a while yeah it's they're not super rare by any mean or super common by any means but they come through now and when you see how would one know whether or not you're looking at a golden eagle just because it's really big it's really big there's some other little characteristics that i'm not as good with but they're significantly larger than like the red tills which would be the one you'd be most likely you confuse it with yeah it's just the wide variety of different raptors and these yeah it's it's amazing i mean red -shouldered hawks every once in one we'll be trapping for bobcats and we'll catch a red -shouldered hawk on our traps it's like oh wow this is so cool We've even caught a great horned owl once.

[1542] And so it's pretty neat seeing some of these animals up close.

[1543] Yeah, I'm worried that the owls in my neighborhood have been poisoned because I used to have quite a few of them.

[1544] And you used to hear them all the time.

[1545] You used to hear them hooting all the time.

[1546] And one time I went out in my back porch and there was one sitting on the fence.

[1547] And it was huge.

[1548] I mean, I don't know how big it really was because I'm sure I was kind of freaked out by it.

[1549] But I was shocked.

[1550] It was at least two feet tall.

[1551] And it was just sitting on this back fence.

[1552] I mean, at least that tall.

[1553] I mean, no exaggeration, but it looked like it was like four feet tall.

[1554] It looked.

[1555] It looked.

[1556] I couldn't believe how big it looked.

[1557] Great Horned owls are huge.

[1558] Yeah.

[1559] I mean, they can carry away foxes.

[1560] There's a study in Bakersfield that they've documented howls coming down, grabbing the kit foxes and carrying them up to their nest sites.

[1561] I had a video on Instagram.

[1562] It's still up there that I got online of this owl swooping down and jacking a hawk in its next.

[1563] Have you ever seen that?

[1564] I haven't, but I've heard about it.

[1565] One of my coworkers actually is a falconer.

[1566] And when he released, or what did he do?

[1567] One of his hawks got away from him, and he said the tree was just being sworn by Greathorns.

[1568] He stayed there all night trying to keep the, trying to help his hawk stay alive.

[1569] No kidding.

[1570] Isn't it crazy that owls eat hawks?

[1571] Yeah, I didn't know that until he was telling me that.

[1572] I'm like, that's crazy.

[1573] I mean, Greathorns are huge, though.

[1574] Check out this video, because it's really nuts.

[1575] I was actually a picture I saw the other day.

[1576] Did you know how long owl's legs were?

[1577] Oh, yeah.

[1578] Look at those legs.

[1579] Never seen that before.

[1580] That's crazy.

[1581] Hard to find something even close to it, but...

[1582] Wow.

[1583] Yeah.

[1584] They're amazing.

[1585] I worked at Cal State Bakersfield in there.

[1586] They had a Raptor rehab thing, and I got the handle Great Horned Owls.

[1587] When those guys flopped their wings, it's like, whoa.

[1588] It was pretty crazy.

[1589] Like, comparable to the Golden Eagle.

[1590] The Golden Eagle is definitely more powerful, but the Great Horned Owls were pretty amazing.

[1591] Well, our perception of them is so interesting because they're a serious.

[1592] predator but if most people don't think of an owl as a predator they think of them as some wise forest creature that gives advice on fire yeah well they're obviously not a threat to you or me right obviously your cat they could potentially grab your cat right and who knows is people get smaller and smaller dogs watch this because you see the eyes in the distance see the eyes yeah check this out I love this video Bing!

[1593] The other hawk doesn't even know what happened.

[1594] He's like, what's up?

[1595] What's going on?

[1596] What's happening, man?

[1597] Is that a juvenile?

[1598] I do not know.

[1599] I don't know.

[1600] They look a little fuzzy.

[1601] Yeah, they do a little bit, right?

[1602] Especially the one in the back.

[1603] The one that gets jacked.

[1604] Wow.

[1605] But the way it gets jacked, it's like, boy, that thing's dead before it leaves the nest.

[1606] Those claws and towns are so gigantic.

[1607] They are amazing.

[1608] That's kind of why we want them around, right?

[1609] A hundred percent.

[1610] Rabbits and rats and everything else.

[1611] And also because they're cool.

[1612] Yeah.

[1613] I mean, I think that's a big thing about coyotes too.

[1614] And I wish some of these short -sided folks that don't want them around because they're worried that they're going to get their dog and all this different stuff.

[1615] Like, man, we're really lucky that we can see these things.

[1616] I mean, nature is cool.

[1617] It's cool to see.

[1618] Well, it's amazing now.

[1619] I mean, being in downtown O .A., a lot of these people that live down there, they don't ever get to see wildlife.

[1620] Right.

[1621] Now, all suddenly, there's this.

[1622] medium -sized carnivore running around their neighborhoods that they get to see.

[1623] And some people, I mean, it's funny.

[1624] I talk to one person that's, like, scared to death of this thing.

[1625] And the next person's, like, it's the coolest thing they've ever seen in their life.

[1626] Right.

[1627] And it's always that balancing act.

[1628] I mean, to me, I've always been pretty fascinated with them.

[1629] Yeah, I identify more with the people who think it's cool.

[1630] It's just, it's, we're really, like we were talking about, we're really lucky.

[1631] We live in a very unique area in that we have this big city, it's huge city, and then just outside of it, we have all this wildlife, like real, legit wildlife.

[1632] You can get from downtown L .A. to 100 % wilderness in an hour.

[1633] Oh, yeah.

[1634] That's crazy.

[1635] Yeah, or less.

[1636] I mean, you can get into, like, Santa Monica's pretty quickly from most spots in L .A. And it's, you get in there, and it's pretty amazing.

[1637] Well, listen, man, I really appreciate you coming on here and sharing all your information and educating us on this stuff.

[1638] It's super cool.

[1639] And thanks for everything you do.

[1640] and it's really interesting that you get to share all this stuff that you're learning about these things.

[1641] I really appreciate it, man. Thanks for having me on, Joe.

[1642] Thank you.

[1643] It's been interesting.

[1644] We'll be back tomorrow with my pal Al Madrigal.

[1645] We'll see you then.

[1646] Bye -bye.

[1647] That was great.