Alicia Keys

[0] Welcome, welcome, welcome to armchair expert.

[1] I'm Dan Shepard.

[2] I'm joined by Monica Monsoon.

[3] Hi there.

[4] Hello.

[5] Day, I wish we were keeping track of what day it is.

[6] Day 100 of quarantine?

[7] Kind of feels like it.

[8] Boy, you know, one tiny sliver of upside for us is we have access to some awesome people that have more time than they normally would.

[9] Yeah, or are in other locations.

[10] Yeah, maybe just because we've opened this up to doing it via Zoom.

[11] Yeah.

[12] But at any rate, what an amazing guest we have today.

[13] Alicia Keys, she is a musician, a singer, a composer, an actress, pianist.

[14] Do I say that right?

[15] Pianist.

[16] Yeah, classically trained pianist.

[17] Keyes was composing songs by age 12 and was signed at 15 years old by Columbia Records.

[18] Another Wunderkin.

[19] Yes, add her to the stack of wonderkins.

[20] She has 15 Competitive Grammy Awards, 17 N -A -CP Image Awards, 9 Billboard Music Awards, and 7 BETET Awards.

[21] And she has a new book, which I have read, and I absolutely love it.

[22] It's called More Myself, A Journey, and it's out now, and I couldn't recommend it enough.

[23] It's fantastic.

[24] And she's just, she's goddamn lovely, isn't she?

[25] So special.

[26] I know.

[27] So please enjoy the ever -talented Alicia Keys.

[28] Wondry Plus subscribers can listen to Armchair Expert early and ad free right now.

[29] Join Wondry Plus in the Wondry app or on Apple Podcasts.

[30] You can listen for free wherever you get your podcasts.

[31] I think it'd be a great interview to just sing to her, you and I for an hour and a half.

[32] I think people...

[33] Are y 'all going to sing to me?

[34] Yeah, no one's ever done that, have they?

[35] Just done an interview with you where they sang the whole time to you, your own songs?

[36] Like, I never said a word, just only sang.

[37] Songs only.

[38] Yeah, like your participation would be as an audience member.

[39] I love that.

[40] I love that so much.

[41] I would actually enjoy that thoroughly.

[42] Can you guys hear me well?

[43] We can hear you great, but I can't see you, which is very disappointing because...

[44] I know, but nobody likes Zoom.

[45] Like, they pretend like they like Zoom, and, you know, in these times we're grateful for Zoom.

[46] We are.

[47] But nobody really likes to, like, be all.

[48] up on the camera with people they never met before in their house clothes.

[49] Okay, so I hate, like a selfie to me is my worst nightmare.

[50] I'm like, what angle works with this nose?

[51] I can't figure it out.

[52] And I don't want to be in selfies with people.

[53] It makes me insecure and I hate it.

[54] Now, with that said, Alicia Keys, I fancy myself as someone who had great phone game in junior high.

[55] Like, I attribute most of my success with women to a really dialed in phone game.

[56] Are you with me so far?

[57] Really?

[58] I'm with you.

[59] I mean, I agree.

[60] I don't know you, but I don't see why not.

[61] Like, I would have got your number in junior high, and I would have called you up, and I could have made it go for 90 minutes.

[62] I could have talked to your ear off for 90 minutes.

[63] Oh, okay, okay, so you're a long talker.

[64] That's not exactly phone game.

[65] That's just long talking.

[66] The other participant was always thoroughly amused and intrigued.

[67] okay if I could see you well let me ask you this can you see me oh my god I can I'm enjoying oh then we're good to go yeah we're fine yeah yeah but we would love to see you if it's possible I would love to see you because I'm attracted to you but let me just back up me too uh Monica's also very attractive to you Monica and I don't like how we look now we like how each other looks but we personally when we look in the mirror we're like not not what I would have picked not crazy about Not wild.

[68] Now, how do you feel about how you look when you look in the mirror?

[69] I mean, it's okay.

[70] Depend on a moment.

[71] You know, like, if I spent a little time and had a little moment, then I, then I'm feeling comfortable with how I look.

[72] Okay.

[73] It was just like my currently how my hair is sticking up.

[74] But if I go get my hat, I will put on the face.

[75] Should I go get my hat and put on the movies?

[76] I would love it.

[77] I would love it.

[78] Just wanted to have an intimate moment together.

[79] Yes.

[80] Yes.

[81] I want to see like, you know, if you start reading a book while we're talking, that'll be a cue to me that I'm not stimulating you conversationally.

[82] I see.

[83] Okay.

[84] Okay.

[85] Hold on.

[86] I'll be right back with my hat.

[87] Oh, I can't wait.

[88] I hope it's a sombrero.

[89] Okay, sombrero.

[90] Oh, it's back.

[91] Kian, now.

[92] Wait.

[93] Here come to sombrero.

[94] Start video.

[95] Oh, there you are.

[96] Rainbow hat says somewhere on the cap.

[97] Oh, it looks great.

[98] Fire.

[99] Thank you for talking to me. Thank you for connecting with me. Is this social distancing distanced enough, or how are we doing with the distance of the social?

[100] Yeah, I'm not going to blow up your actual coordinates.

[101] But yes, we're in excess of 100 miles away.

[102] So I think we're...

[103] We're doing good.

[104] We're looking real good.

[105] But what about the two of you, though?

[106] Oh, we live together.

[107] We've been quarantined together.

[108] Got it.

[109] All right.

[110] Yeah, Monica, by weird coincidence, was living at her house for about four weeks before this all started because she has her own medical issues.

[111] She had a seizure, and then she wanted to make sure that if she had one again, someone was there to care for her.

[112] So she had already moved in.

[113] So it just worked.

[114] Yeah.

[115] Wow.

[116] Well, that's...

[117] That's perfect.

[118] It worked out perfectly.

[119] Seizures can have an upside.

[120] Can I say a couple things about you?

[121] One, we watched your Nickelodeon thing.

[122] That Kristen hosted.

[123] Yes, that's right.

[124] And I wasn't saying this just because I knew I was about to interview you.

[125] What I say, like, mid -song.

[126] Full body chills three times.

[127] Full -body chills three times.

[128] It was, yeah, unbelievable.

[129] You got me good.

[130] Best compliment.

[131] Like, there's nothing.

[132] better of a compliment than full body chills.

[133] That's all that ever matters.

[134] Oh, that started in the head, like came in the ears, started in the forehead, and then radiated down all the way to the tips of my toes.

[135] Goose bumps, hair standing on Ed.

[136] Yeah.

[137] Also, because you were doing it from your home or somewhere, it just is like, oh, that's just what she sounds like.

[138] It's so pure.

[139] I think the expectation was a little lowered because it was low -fi, and then all of a sudden, I don't know the name of that song.

[140] Oh, it's called underdog, underdog.

[141] Underdog.

[142] But, you know, you start playing your voice kind of like an instrument.

[143] I mean, that's so generic to say, but I mean really like, like you'd hear like a sax solo or something.

[144] There's just, it's being played.

[145] It's not just words.

[146] I love, right, right.

[147] I feel you.

[148] Yes, yes, yes.

[149] I love that so much.

[150] That's so cool.

[151] That's so good.

[152] I'm glad you got to see it.

[153] And honestly, I felt the same way, too.

[154] I even got a chance to watch it back.

[155] I was also just really happy with the way that it felt.

[156] Because sometimes when you're in the mix, you don't, you know, you feel good.

[157] I know I felt good about it, but you don't get a chance to be apart from it and just kind of listen to it.

[158] Yeah.

[159] And then I was like really happy with that too.

[160] So thank you.

[161] I appreciate it.

[162] Now, I have to imagine there's songs that are like are more autobiographical or they're about something you care specifically about.

[163] Like sometimes I imagine you're just in a good mood and you want to know.

[164] upbeat song and an empowering song or whatever the thing is.

[165] But surely there's some, right, that are pretty emotionally centered.

[166] It's never worked out well for me to just kind of like write a song.

[167] That's never, that's never going well for me. And I've done it.

[168] I've tried.

[169] I say, oh, you know, or man, thinking about this kind of topic and this seems relevant to me right now, but it might not be like super personal or whatever.

[170] And I'll try to put it together.

[171] And it sounds good, something wrong with it, but it just doesn't really go there.

[172] So I have to say that although some are definitely to your point more touchy you know like something about it is just very touchy at the moment and that is triggered but most of all the songs have come from somewhere that means something otherwise i just find that it doesn't end up ever making the record because it kind of just falls off eventually yeah i wonder if it's at all comparable so i write a lot man there's some scenes i write where they just i like blink and there's five pages written.

[173] And then there's other ones where it's like, I'm killing myself for four days to write two pages to get through the exposition or whatever.

[174] Is it kind of like that at all?

[175] That's exactly.

[176] Exactly it.

[177] The cool thing is what I think I've learned, though, is trying not to judge the creative process as much because even though some of the songs are like water raining down, it's just so natural.

[178] And then some I've, I've have to craft and recraft and retry and replay and redo and I'm like killing myself because I'm like I cannot believe it why is this song giving me so much trouble but then finally when it finds its way then it was worth it so I try my best not to judge the creative process right like you're not going to say oh if this didn't come to me like this it must not be meant to be be good I'm cool with crafting a thing you know crafting a piece of art I'm okay with that I give so little advice because I don't feel qualified but my only good piece of writing advice I have is give yourself permission to write something shitty like the hurdle is writing is starting writing once you're writing guess what you're probably not going to write something that's shitty but if you just allow yourself to sit down and write something shitty I think sometimes great things can happen you so right about that because I think a lot of the things we're dealing with is like fear that we're not good enough which we all you know feel that and just experience that and so of course you talk yourself out of it because then you don't have to prove yourself right that you actually you weren't good enough damn but i do find that for me even there's times when i have sat down right and it has been shitty and i'm like oh that's not good at all that'll like it and and maybe a month later i'll come back and i'll write a whole other song but this one phrase from that one time came back in and it meant everything it needed to mean and i and i realized that even though i wrote something that was kind of not what i was hoping for in that time i needed to do it so it could get to this time.

[179] So that's kind of a cool thing, too.

[180] Yeah.

[181] Now, do you live in any fear?

[182] Because certainly comedians, we all live in fear that we have a shelf life.

[183] And I think there's a weird parallel, too, between singers, which is generally the source of comedy is like you're getting shit on by your boss, you're penniless, you're uncomfortable.

[184] Insecurity.

[185] Insecurity.

[186] You feel talked down to a lot.

[187] Like, there's all these people you're observing, but then the danger of getting successful is now life gets kind of.

[188] kind of more comfortable.

[189] You can kind of control it more.

[190] You're not the victim of so many things.

[191] And then you just start worrying like, am I so separated?

[192] I can't write anything funny.

[193] Yeah.

[194] I mean, that's definitely an artist experience.

[195] And also I think it's because there's been programming that we've been given in a lot of ways.

[196] I mean, that's what I think about that all the time.

[197] And I recognize the programming a lot, especially now.

[198] But the programming that we've been given is like, oh, you know, starving artists, you know, all these phrases that we're taught that, you know, the less you have, the more creative you're going to be, which, trust me, not that there's not truth to those things.

[199] Like, there's definitely truth.

[200] You can totally see why they're shared.

[201] But I think that those things get in our head.

[202] And then we start feeling like, well, I shouldn't probably get too successful because, you know, and then you see all these other people, the successful people are crazy.

[203] So many times I've seen, like, very successful people.

[204] I'm like, y 'all are crazy.

[205] I don't want to be like that.

[206] Sure.

[207] Right?

[208] So sometimes I think all of that gets in your way and then you've subscribed to this story that you have some type of limit.

[209] And me too.

[210] Trust me, I've been trying to break out my own personal limit that I put on myself for like a long time, which is a lot of what is in this book and this conversation that I'm having with myself and just with each other.

[211] Because I think we all experience this, but for sure me, I can only speak for myself.

[212] The limits that I like put on myself and thinking that it was humility, that's the crazy part.

[213] I'm like, oh no, I'm just humble.

[214] So I don't need, I don't need that or it doesn't matter if that doesn't happen.

[215] It was the same thing as not starting to write because I was protecting myself in case something happened.

[216] And I was just like, no, I'm good.

[217] I don't even need all that.

[218] It's fine.

[219] And then I'm like shutting everything down before I even try to do something at all.

[220] And it's deep.

[221] So it is, right?

[222] And then even if you had to list like the top 100 songs ever written, I mean, I have.

[223] You have to imagine 80 % of them are either going to be about falling in love or leaving love, right?

[224] And as we get kind of healthy and you find yourself in a healthy relationship and a marriage, and it's like, oh, you know, I'm not either going to be ending this or starting this.

[225] And that's such fodder for songs.

[226] Yeah, no, it's true.

[227] I mean, there's so much to write and there's so many perspectives.

[228] And I think that's my favorite thing about songs and songwriting is that it's literally like how a person, and sees a thing as to how it comes to life.

[229] And I just find that to be so fascinating, especially when I'm just listening or watching other artists or other writers or things like that.

[230] I'm like, man, I would have never thought of it like that.

[231] I would have thought of it like this.

[232] You know what I mean?

[233] So I think that to your point that I love the challenge and I think what happens maybe even as life progresses, just period, I've found it's definitely a lot of loss, but I find that it's things that I'm losing because I'm growing.

[234] So it's a different version of loss.

[235] You know what I mean?

[236] It left me because I didn't need it anymore.

[237] Yeah.

[238] And sometimes it kind of presents itself or even the anger that maybe you don't feel in your relationship because you're very pleased with it and it's going well.

[239] But I have a lot of anger for myself or a lot of anger for things that I find myself continuously doing or patterns that I keep repeating or things like that.

[240] And I'll pull that out.

[241] And so I think the perspective definitely helps.

[242] But I do know what you mean.

[243] and artists always feel like it's about to be the end for them for sure sure yeah even someone as prolific as you that's like weirdly comforting but yeah there's there is endless fodder because i don't know about you but i i love learning the same fucking lesson multiple times in a year and i'll go oh my god that's right i'm supposed to work out and be of service to people and then i'm happy and i'm like i know that i already know that i how many times do you have to learn that.

[244] No, that pisses me off so bad.

[245] Pisses me off.

[246] Like for a lot of years I had a really big people pleasing problem, which I'm trying to figure out is that a woman thing or a human thing?

[247] So maybe y 'all could truly tell me, do you think that's a woman thing or a human thing?

[248] I think it's both.

[249] I think it's a human thing, but I think societally there's more pressure on women to be perfect and that agreeable, likable, all these things.

[250] Like men, if they're intimidating, they can still be likable.

[251] There's still something that you can be drawn to about them.

[252] But if you're a woman, I don't know if you watch the Hillary documentary, but that whole documentary is just like, oh, my God.

[253] Oh, you'll love it.

[254] It's unbelievable.

[255] And it's all about that.

[256] Like, you just see, oh, she can't win.

[257] No matter what she does, it'll be labeled as either she doesn't speak up enough or she's a bitch Or, you know, like, whatever lane she picks, there's going to be some well -worn female attack.

[258] Yeah, some ridiculous judgment specific to women.

[259] She's not emotional enough, right?

[260] But then if a woman's emotional, then she's hysterical and can't run the country.

[261] She'll, you know.

[262] Irrational.

[263] Yeah.

[264] Yeah.

[265] She's hysterical if she has emotions, but if she doesn't have emotions, why didn't she have emotions?

[266] Yeah, y 'all can't win at all.

[267] Yeah.

[268] Yeah.

[269] It's tough.

[270] So from the man's perspective, because I've said this before.

[271] that I feel like this is a woman's plight.

[272] Yeah.

[273] And certain men have gotten kind of upset with me, you know.

[274] And I can understand how they also could feel like that to some degree.

[275] So I'm just wondering as a man, Dax, do you feel like that is also a man's plight or not so much?

[276] I certainly know a lot of men that have that kind of codependent people pleaser.

[277] And I've seen the people that just can't protect themselves.

[278] they can't say no or have a boundary out of the fear that they won't be liked or all these things.

[279] And so I certainly seen a man, but boy, yeah, I think it's definitely, I think there's some nature and there's some nurture in that stew that make women particularly susceptible, though, that.

[280] Yeah, it's like the body image thing where I think men have body image issues, too, of course.

[281] But I think there's more societal pressure for women.

[282] And it doesn't remove the plight or take away that they're going through the same experience, but it's just a matter of the cultural layer is a little different, I think, for one movie.

[283] I've read a good deal of your book.

[284] That's awesome.

[285] I'm in bed.

[286] It's like 11 .30.

[287] I'm like, oh, I'll read it for 10 minutes and get a feel for what it.

[288] Girl, I could not stop reading it.

[289] I swear to God, I stayed up until like 1 .30 in the morning.

[290] I liked it so much.

[291] There were so many things I felt like I really related to.

[292] There's some geographic similarities so like your maternal grandparents are from Michigan originally right exactly and then they moved to Toledo and then so Kristen's whole family's from Cleveland and Kristen's father was in radio then became a news director and your grandpa was a disc jockey and a news director your mom escaped and went to tish right exactly and Kristen escaped and went to Tish.

[293] Oh, wow.

[294] But then the stuff that I felt really connected with was your paternal grandparents, Fafa and Nana, what was it?

[295] Yeah, Fafa and Nana, yeah.

[296] Yeah, so they lived in Harlem, right?

[297] You lived in Hell's Kitchen and you used to go there like every other weekend on the weekend that probably should have been your dads, right?

[298] Right.

[299] Well, they actually, by that time, by that time they moved to Long Island.

[300] Oh, okay.

[301] my nana did live in Harlem and that's where they met in Harlem and then my grandfather wanted to like be the man and get her a house and move her out to the suburbs and she was so upset because she was like my apartment in Harlem was bigger than his house yeah yeah so um yes but that's exactly it so i had dad that wasn't around and then on his weekends i went to papa bob and grandma's house for me because single mom's struggling three kids my mom's a beast like you're like your mom, when I went to the grandparents' house, that was the time I got to be a child.

[302] They spoiled me. I got to eat macaroni and cheese.

[303] They bought me ding -dongs.

[304] It was all there.

[305] I was like, oh, this is what the other kids in my neighborhood are experiencing.

[306] This is it.

[307] This is what I've been waiting for.

[308] Yeah, there's just another level of love.

[309] I mean, it was just another level of ability to love in a different way because everything wasn't so on their back and on their shoulders and heavy and, you know, worried and everything like that.

[310] And so even Fafi write about him in the book and he was like this Italian detective dude through and through like he would have the fedora and the, you know, the raincoat and, you know, his piece was always on him.

[311] So every time I hug him, I'm holding the gun.

[312] I mean, he was just this guy, you know, but he would drive all the way and be there, leaned against the car when I came out the building.

[313] And the first thing, he was like, that's my girl, every time.

[314] And he gave me that, like, light and that type of welcoming, you know.

[315] So I never felt like I wasn't supposed to be there or nobody wanted me. It was like this beautiful love.

[316] And you added one little detail that says everything to me, which was he was early every time.

[317] Oh, he was waiting for me. I didn't have to go.

[318] It's far for here.

[319] It's far for here.

[320] No, he was there, ready.

[321] Yeah, because dads are late.

[322] especially those those dads you know certain dads tend to be late and that's okay they come I find they come around eventually because my relationship with my father has evolved and I'm really grateful for it and I'm glad that we've been able to find a way to really be friends you know because at some point I realized okay you don't have to be my daddy like we can let that go but yeah we could actually be friends we can know each other and get to know who we are as a woman and as a man and like respect that.

[323] Yeah, I had a therapist say to me one time and I'm so gratefully said this.

[324] I was like, I'm at the point I think I might be done with this trying to have a relationship with my dad.

[325] It just, I get frustrated, I get let down, I'm disappointed, blah, blah, blah.

[326] He said, look, it's not about your dad.

[327] Are you the type of person that doesn't talk to their dad?

[328] Like, forget him.

[329] Do you think you're the type of person when people would describe you?

[330] He's like, oh yeah, he doesn't talk to his dad.

[331] And I was like, fuck, I think you're right.

[332] that I'm the type of person that no matter what would continue to try.

[333] I would reach out.

[334] It would be cool.

[335] It's like I'm not harboring all of these things.

[336] Yeah.

[337] And I had a similar experience with somebody that shared some perspective like that to me that totally blew my mind and it changed everything.

[338] She said, like, I'm always going to be disappointed.

[339] Like, I'm always going to be disappointed.

[340] I'm going to ask him to come to the thing.

[341] He's going to say he's going to come to the thing.

[342] And then he's not going to show up to the thing.

[343] And then I tell myself, I'm not going to be disappointed because it's fine.

[344] I know he's not going to show up, but then he doesn't show up.

[345] And then I'm still disappointed.

[346] And I'm kicking myself because I'm like, why?

[347] You knew that already.

[348] I'm just over that.

[349] Let's just like, forget it.

[350] And then I turned up to another level when I had kids because I was like, you know what you're not going to do?

[351] You're not going to do this shit to my kids.

[352] Yeah, yeah.

[353] You know, so that, like, elevated.

[354] And she was like, so why do you keep asking him to do things that you know he's not going do?

[355] And I was like, oh.

[356] She was like, it's.

[357] It's like you're setting him up to disappoint you.

[358] You're like, you know, you have these different friends.

[359] You know, you can call this friend for when you need to vent.

[360] And you can call this friend for when you need to, like, be to an appointment on time.

[361] And, like, that's who you call.

[362] You don't, why are you setting him up to not come through for you?

[363] It changed everything.

[364] And I was able to look at it from that perspective.

[365] And I was like, why am I doing that?

[366] Like, I'm trying to punish him or something.

[367] And in a way, I was.

[368] Well, and I think people do this.

[369] some relationships a lot where they, especially of people that have a hard time accepting that they're loved, they're having a hard time believing they're worthy of love.

[370] So then they start creating tests for the person that they can't pass.

[371] That's it.

[372] And it was deep.

[373] So that changed so much for me and I was able to start a relationship with him in a new way.

[374] We're based on knowing who he is as a person and accepting who he is as a person.

[375] We do this thing where we try to make people who we want them to be, not who they actually are.

[376] And so I was able to look at that.

[377] And I said, you know what?

[378] I'm going to stop asking him to do the thing that he's probably not that great at doing.

[379] It's just how it goes.

[380] And I'm asking to do the thing that I notice goes well.

[381] And when I started doing that, we started to be able to connect and I felt good.

[382] And, you know, so it's so deep.

[383] I thought in the book you did a really good job of being gracious about his position, which was he was 27.

[384] This was not a planned pregnancy.

[385] He kind of found out when your mom had made the decision, yes, I'm going to keep this baby, right?

[386] And so I think you're just, you're pretty gracious about recognizing like, oh, this wasn't his plan per se.

[387] So, you know, it's hard.

[388] And how do you, who teaches you how to be a parent?

[389] At what point do you get the memo?

[390] Like, okay, here's all the guidelines of how you parents.

[391] Nobody knows how to do this shit.

[392] It's literally, super confusing it's scary it's totally a whole new world and then the stakes are so high you know it's not like you guys are married and you plan to live the rest of your life that's terrifying because then you're like oh my gosh what do I do with that right so it's it's I realize obviously in the beginning I was totally you know pissed off and heated and all the all the shit and I talked about that too because that's fair I had a right to feel like that but I also realized after a while like the only person that's angry he and feeling this wrath that you swear you're slinging everywhere is you because he doesn't he doesn't have a clue that you feel like this how does he know he's going off living his life chilling i'm sitting here harboring all the anger and like i'm darkening my spirit holding on to something but look it's all the journey and it is hard not to say any of this is easy it's layered and all that but oh yeah finally getting there you know i feel you i feel you and i'm glad that it came off gracious because, you know, that's how I feel at this time in my life for sure.

[393] We have a saying in AA, which is having resentments is like drinking poison, hoping your enemy dies.

[394] That's exactly it.

[395] That's exactly it.

[396] Yeah.

[397] You're like punishing yourself to get even with them.

[398] It's wild.

[399] Oh, deep.

[400] That might be a song.

[401] Oh.

[402] I feel like that might be a song.

[403] You don't even need to credit me. You don't even need to credit me. All right.

[404] No, I'll just credit A .A. Stay tuned for more armchair expert If you dare What's up guys?

[405] It's your girl Kiki And my podcast is back with a new season And let me tell you it's too good And I'm diving into the brains of entertainment's best and brightest Okay, every episode I bring on a friend And have a real conversation And I don't mean just friends I mean the likes of Amy Polar Kel Mitchell, Vivica Fox The list goes on So follow, watch and listen to Baby, this is Kiki Palmer on the Wondery app, or wherever you get your podcast.

[406] We've all been there.

[407] Turning to the internet to self -diagnose our inexplicable pains, debilitating body aches, sudden fevers, and strange rashes.

[408] Though our minds tend to spiral to worst -case scenarios, it's usually nothing, but for an unlucky few, these unsuspecting symptoms can start the clock ticking on a terrifying medical mystery.

[409] Like the unexplainable death of a retired firefighter whose body was found at home, by his son, except it looked like he had been cremated, or the time when an entire town started jumping from buildings and seeing tigers on their ceilings.

[410] Hey listeners, it's Mr. Balin here, and I'm here to tell you about my podcast.

[411] It's called Mr. Ballin's Medical Mysteries.

[412] Each terrifying true story will be sure to keep you up at night.

[413] Follow Mr. Ballin's Medical Mysteries wherever you get your podcasts.

[414] Prime members can listen early and ad -free on Amazon Music.

[415] your music from the beginning and I'm an enormous fan.

[416] I'm not unique in that I think you're just so hyper talented in all these ways.

[417] Thank you.

[418] It was really interesting to hear your story particularly for me. It was of great interest.

[419] Just recently I've become obsessed with Whitney Houston.

[420] I just stumbled across one of the documentaries.

[421] There's two of them.

[422] I don't know if you've seen either of them.

[423] I've seen one.

[424] One's like the unapproved and one I think is the approved.

[425] Something like that.

[426] Right.

[427] I just felt, A, identity thing.

[428] Like growing up one way, being sold is another way, being excluded from the black community in a way that was devastating for her, addiction everywhere, like the duality of being this person on stage and then this person, you know, it's Shakespearean.

[429] I found it so heartbreaking.

[430] I just wanted to rescue that girl.

[431] You know, weirdly, your situation is not that different in that, like, grew up in a very dicey area.

[432] in Hell's Kitchen, and then at a very, very young age.

[433] I mean, like, when's the last time you talked to a 19 -year -old?

[434] I just asked Monica this this morning.

[435] When's the last time you talked to a 19 -year -old?

[436] Well, my husband and I, we have a beautiful blended family, so together we have five children.

[437] Oh, okay.

[438] And so he and I have two together, and then there's 11, a 13 -year -old, and a 19 -year -old.

[439] Oh.

[440] So when I think about him, his name is Nas, and he's also an artist, and he's a producer, and he's writing and stuff and he's in a lot of ways sometimes we're talking i'm literally talking to like my freaking reflection in some ways because you know he's battling with school and trying to figure out is that valuable for him or how much does it take away from his opportunity to do his art you know the whole thing that we all trying to figure out as we're going so i have to say i speak to a 19 year old more often than than that and it sounds like you're talking to maybe the height of that example.

[441] And I'm not trying to be disparaging to 19 -year -olds.

[442] I'm just, I'm remembering myself at 19.

[443] And the notion that at 19 years old, you were, and I guess even prior to that, you had already entered into a record deal with Columbia, right?

[444] And they were basically doing to you what they had done to Whitney now.

[445] But you were put in a position where you were this amazing songwriter, piano player, singer, and they pretty much just wanted you to sing and they'd write the songs and they'd decide what your music was going to be like.

[446] It went south and then you fought and you said no, and this bitch at 19 was like, no, I think I'll be writing my own stuff and did it.

[447] And I just think like, I talked to 19 year old.

[448] How on earth was a 19 year old able to stay the course and have the confidence in yourself?

[449] I mean, it's really amazing.

[450] I think about that a lot too.

[451] And And I think about it in two ways.

[452] The first way I think about it is there was one person in my life, my manager at the time, his name was Jeff Robinson, who was really on my side.

[453] He really, really was.

[454] And he knew that I had something special.

[455] And he also, you know, just wasn't for the bullshit.

[456] And so I think that would have been that much harder for me if he was like, nah, Alicia, you really should probably do what they say.

[457] We're trying to get this money and we don't want to risk it.

[458] I would have probably maybe, I don't know, it would have been harder for me to find that ability to say like I'm fighting through this.

[459] But there's been other times later in the future that I had to make my own choice singular with no one else on my side.

[460] So I did have that ability to do that.

[461] And the second way I think about that is that I think in a lot of ways, and I don't know if you find this too, I find when I reflect back, I was more myself right about that 18, 19, 20 space.

[462] I was very clear what I didn't want.

[463] I knew it so clearly.

[464] There was nothing that could convince me otherwise.

[465] I was like stupid enough to not know any better.

[466] And you couldn't tell me anyway.

[467] And I had no taste of any success or something that would kind of sway me in any way or not.

[468] I knew it and that was it.

[469] And I was very clear.

[470] Later, I became much less clear.

[471] And it became more convoluted.

[472] Well, now I would imagine, I'm just guessing, but once you transfer in, into a zone where you're trying to protect success versus trying to achieve success, it's dicey, right?

[473] It's so deep, it's so deep.

[474] The amount of demons that you're battling, the amount of opinions that you're battling, the amount of self -worth that you're struggling with, the amount of doubt, the amount of people pleasing because you get into that habit, because you're like, well, I gotta please them, right?

[475] I gotta please them.

[476] Don't they have to like it?

[477] This whole idea of people liking everything you do.

[478] And, ooh, it's a scary, scary, edgy sword that will cut you so bad.

[479] And so I think that's exactly it.

[480] That crossover between protecting what I had finally achieved and the difference between that and, like, dreaming was two different mental states.

[481] Yeah, I think it's a real weird transition for people.

[482] Because your first album was so enormously.

[483] successful and then of course there's this well -worn kind of pattern what do they call it like the sophomore curse or something where your second album especially if the first one's been so successful can be so overwhelming for a lot of artists that they just either can't write the album or in the other great cliche is that your first album you had spent 19 years writing yeah in ways the second one yeah the second one you got like six months hurry up right right yeah and then And that album, Diary, is, you know, by all accounts, just as successful and just as many Grammys and all this stuff.

[484] And you really did it.

[485] But I am curious, what was the mental space going into the studio after the one album was so fantastic and everyone had celebrated you so much?

[486] Well, let me back up even a little further.

[487] What is it like to be in a tiny confined area?

[488] Record these songs.

[489] Do what you've been doing in your living room since you were seven years old, playing a piano.

[490] and then you shove it off the dock, and then it is 20 million albums sold and all the nominations, like, do you feel fraudulent?

[491] Do you feel like, oh, I deserve this?

[492] Or do you feel like, holy fuck am I lucky?

[493] This can't repeat.

[494] It's up like, what happens in that?

[495] Can you even enjoy it?

[496] Or is it such a big thing to digest?

[497] You know, at the time, it had been so long coming.

[498] When I was first signed, I was 15 years, and then went through the different transitions between the different labels and things changed on the business side and I remember this one business manager I had was like, so is that I'm never going to come out or what?

[499] I mean, I would get tormented by people who would finally kind of think it was a joke like you probably, this is probably not going to happen for you, huh?

[500] I mean, it's been all this time.

[501] And I know they were joking, but they had no idea the angst and like acid that put in my throat, you know?

[502] Yeah.

[503] And I started to say maybe it won't.

[504] Maybe it can't.

[505] Is it ever?

[506] Could I ever?

[507] Will it ever?

[508] Well, can I just add four years in a 19 year old's life is a quarter of your life.

[509] So you, you know, or whatever, one fifth.

[510] So, you know, for you, you've been in that quagmire for a long time.

[511] A long time.

[512] And so by the time we found kind of the right version of everything, Peter Edge and my then manager, Jeff Robinson.

[513] Clive Davis and they had to buy me out of the thing and that was so expensive and it's like it was a whole like traumatic there was no reason why any of this worked out.

[514] I mean truly I should have been on somebody's shelf and that would have probably been it.

[515] You know?

[516] Yeah.

[517] So finally when it came to this place where it was happening, I was so damn thrilled that it was actually happening that I don't remember feeling a large amount of fear or, you know, I don't remember feeling scared about that process.

[518] remember feeling triumphant.

[519] Like, see, I told y 'all asses, it was going to happen.

[520] And I felt victorious.

[521] And then I think because I knew how long it had taken and how likely it was that it wouldn't, you know, like, you just don't know what's going to happen for you.

[522] Like, you don't know.

[523] And because I came from a place that was very minimal and we were always living paycheck to paycheck.

[524] I was always like so laser focused on whatever I had to do to make this thing work.

[525] I would have slept half an hour a day.

[526] I didn't give a shit.

[527] I would have done anything to just make sure that this thing I'd been working so long at finally arrived.

[528] And so I think that I put my head down and strap my boots on so tight that I didn't see half of the shit.

[529] I mean, I would, we would have some amazing thing.

[530] The Grammys, five Grammys, ah, ah, and the next morning I was at work.

[531] I didn't know what it felt like to be like, wow, this is so cool.

[532] It was a whirlwind.

[533] I don't know where I was half the time.

[534] I had no idea.

[535] But I think part of that saved me. I didn't have enough time to like pay attention to whatever.

[536] Go on that yacht in the Mediterranean and be celebrated.

[537] There was none of that.

[538] And you can't afford that.

[539] shit even though i remember the first time i saw a magazine i was in europe and i saw a magazine and it's the first album and fallen and the whole thing and i was in europe for one of the first times and everything was exploding and i saw this magazine and it said my picture on the cover and it said the hundred and eighty nine million dollar girl and i said uh huh oh ha ha ha ha ha ha ha i was like huh who where's it out i wasn't seeing that 189 million trust me so that was the first time it even dawned on me like the level of monetary you know what I mean I didn't even understand what the business was actually accruing well when you saw that did you think a that's a lie or B holy shit I made that money where the fuck it is it and I've been robbed I didn't quite feel I was robbed I did know at that time obviously you're aware that you know you take a share and the other people take the larger share and finally you find yourself to a place where you can even those scales because it's long enough that you can start to equalize it.

[540] And I guess I got that, but I was more shocked that that was literally the number.

[541] I just, I couldn't even fathom that that was the enormity of what I was creating.

[542] And can I just add that more than any other product, I think I've said this on here before, but more than any other product, a movie, even if I wrote it, directed it, starred in there are so many people involved.

[543] But the notion that you literally sat in a room and then out of that, you opened your brain up and your throat up and then out of that, it created $189 million.

[544] That's a very huge concept.

[545] I think that is something that's really special about music and you're right.

[546] It is so much because even when I have done film, I'm always in awe.

[547] I'm always laughing.

[548] I'm like, what?

[549] Y 'all get weekends off?

[550] What is this shit?

[551] We don't get no weekends.

[552] We don't get any holidays.

[553] We're working.

[554] and every, every new year's.

[555] I'm like, what kind of work is this?

[556] Where's the work?

[557] Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[558] It sounds like it's a weirdly probably was a blessing that you were getting your ass kicked for four years because I bet when it happened, you did feel at least like you earned it.

[559] I did struggle with this question of like, did I deserve it?

[560] And I don't know why.

[561] I mean, I definitely put my time in.

[562] I definitely put my hours in.

[563] I definitely put my blood, sweat, and tears in.

[564] But I still wondered.

[565] I was like, do I deserve all this?

[566] And I would talk to my friends who that became strange because we were living in almost like two different stratospheres just by nature of life.

[567] And I didn't know how to share with them what I was experiencing because I didn't want them to feel anything toward me or left out or as if, yeah, I projected that they would treat me this way.

[568] And maybe they would have, maybe they wouldn't have, but I chose that they would.

[569] and so I never let them fully in.

[570] And I think even today I realized I didn't nurture a lot of my own safe spaces because I was so concerned that they would maybe feel left out or bad or left behind or wouldn't understand that I didn't have a lot of like community because I kind of just assumed that they would feel this way.

[571] So that's been a new reality for me that I've realized I maybe shouldn't have done that.

[572] So I relate so much.

[573] Two years ago, my, my New Year's resolution was to stop putting a negative spin on everything.

[574] And I really did track it back to the fact that I have all my friends I grew up with that were all from very modest background.

[575] And so if they found out I got this car per se, I'd go, oh, yeah, I got this car, but dude, it costs this much to get it covered.

[576] And I'd just add all these bad things onto it.

[577] It's like, yeah, yeah, I got this house, but then blah, blah, blah.

[578] And I realized I was coloring my own experience with all of it because I'm trying to add a shit layer to everything so people aren't mad at me. So people can relate.

[579] Yeah.

[580] If I could just give you like a major fucking high five right there because that is like exactly it.

[581] So you feel me. And I got to say the one thing singers have.

[582] I don't think people really understand how isolating is.

[583] I think Taylor Swift's documentary, I don't know if you've seen that, but that too is amazing.

[584] It's on Netflix right now.

[585] It's great.

[586] And yeah, you really get a glimpse of the isolation because, again, especially for what you and she both do, which is like you sit a lot with a piano and you're feeling all this awkwardness with your friendship circle that no one teaches you how to navigate.

[587] And they can just get really, really solitary, right?

[588] Yes, very, very.

[589] And even like on tour, and I'm a more modest tourer, people tour much more grandly than I. but even I in a modest touring environment could employ 100 people 100 people on tour easy and there's only maybe 10 people on stage but all the stage hands all the trucks all the hotels all the behind the scenes all the stuff it'd be like 100 people that I'm employing and I'm by myself you know because I mean what I'm gonna hang out with like the guy who packs up the guitar and puts it I mean maybe but he's working later than me he breaks the show down and then okay am I going to chill with the band I mean kind of that I'm doing like 100 ,000 meet and greets and they go back to the hotel and they're exhausted.

[590] And then I'm on my own bus because it's better that way.

[591] You need to, you need some space and you want to have time to sleep and you got your stuff.

[592] So it's definitely, oftentimes you're in your hotel room and you're just like, where am I and who am I and nobody's with me. It definitely can feel very, very, very isolating.

[593] And you say in your book, you say your life is in two chapters in a way.

[594] There's like before that album comes out and then there's after that album comes out.

[595] Right.

[596] You know, the one thing that I think my, you know, my mother always did really well with me since I was a kid.

[597] And she was always just, she said, man, got that pimple on your face, right?

[598] It's going to keep you humble.

[599] Like, she just was that type of mush and, you know, just simple things that she would give me a great perspective on, even with just, you know, how to treat other people was just based off of how do you want to be treated.

[600] Like, would you like that if someone did that to you?

[601] And she would ask me like a six, five, seven, that's how you would, you would like that if someone did that to you?

[602] And I would be like, I guess not.

[603] I think because it was just her and I and because we were so loners and having to make it all figure it out together, she definitely gave me those jewels that lasted a long time.

[604] And I think gave me that stability even through the mayhem and the chaos and all the weirdness that naturally kind of is created from this world, I feel like I always knew how to maintain the sanity.

[605] And I'm really grateful for that.

[606] Because if I, to the point of Whitney and the addictions and different people you know if if i did have more of that energy around me i can easily see how you're led that way it sounded like mom basically you were obviously her child but also hey we're teammates in this we're in hell's kitchen there's a shitload of stuff going on right outside the door so there's an expectation i know my mom sat me down was like hey you're kids but it's the four of us in this so either we're all going to survive or we're not going to, and you guys are going to play a big role in that.

[607] And it's, you know, in one way I, of course, resent it that I wish I had a more carefree childhood.

[608] But then in another hand, I was like you say in your book, like always a little older than I was numerically.

[609] In real life.

[610] Yeah.

[611] That became a value.

[612] And there's a competence I feel or a self -dependence that I have that I'm grateful for.

[613] Same.

[614] I'm really glad about that because stuff gets weird.

[615] And if you're crazy too, and there's no coming back, you know what I mean?

[616] So I'm grateful.

[617] Now, your mom wasn't a singer, but she was an actress.

[618] Did it ever get dicey that, like, you were kind of, you know, doing the thing clearly she had set out to do?

[619] You know, I never personally felt that.

[620] I do know that there's surely kind of competitive natures between mothers and daughters.

[621] And just overall, just a relationship can kind of be a little bit interesting or strength.

[622] or and she is definitely a very strong -minded human like she I mean whatever she says is right and don't even think about challenging that or having another opinion like do yourself a favor and just agree so so I think that was a very difficult energy to navigate for me in a lot of ways just being super young and as a young human you know of course you listen to your parents of course.

[623] And then starting to develop that muscle of having my own opinion, I think in some ways didn't develop that well because it was like this other opinion was so loud.

[624] But I always felt like me kind of living our dream kind of in a way.

[625] I definitely did feel like in a way she worked so hard for me to like pick up the baton.

[626] And I do I do truly feel like that, you know, even getting getting us out of a small town and coming here and all the things that she did in pursuit of her dream was the reason why I was able to have mine.

[627] Yeah.

[628] Now, you and I hope I don't bastardize it because I'm not going to be able to recite it as beautifully as you did.

[629] But the book starts with you being seven and your mom picked you up in a cab, which was really rare.

[630] You guys didn't travel by cab but she had an audition and she picked you up from school and it was like crazy crazy cold out and you guys get to a traffic light i don't know somewhere around broadway maybe ish and you see a few women outside that are in mini skirts fishnet stockings high heels they are not dressed for that environment and you ask your mom why are those ladies dressed like that and your mom in this very beautiful way without getting into the details of them being seen.

[631] sex workers or anything basically says people will do what they have to do to survive yeah right and you thought to yourself in that moment at seven i never will let myself be in a situation where i am exposed and vulnerable like that that's a commitment you make at seven years old right i remember it so clearly despite that right this is why i can so relate to you like to have a notion of who i'm going to be And then to find out I wasn't that at times is so soul -crushing.

[632] So the first time you explain is you were doing some modeling work and you did like a circular, like a catalog, and it was you and underwear and you were young.

[633] And at the time, you're like, oh, yeah, okay, this is whatever, not even thinking about what it meant.

[634] And then the thing came out and you realized, Jesus, there I am, I'm exposed, I'm vulnerable.

[635] and everyone my age can see this and it's in the world and it's now completely out of my control and you're like, oh, that's weird, I guess I did that.

[636] And then the one that even gets more heartbreaking is that your first magazine opportunity tied to the release of your first album, you go there, the photographer basically, you know, cleverly gets all your team out of there so that no one's there to protect you and starts pushing you, pushing you up.

[637] maybe the pants are unbuttoned, maybe the shirt's this, maybe this, and then you leave and then what you see on the cover is you covering your breasts with your arm, pants unbuttoned, and you said it made you puke when you saw it, and just the devastation of, wow, that's the opposite of what I wanted.

[638] It's the fucking thing I said that would never happen to me. That's so powerful.

[639] And I'm glad you can admit that someone that's smart and competent and has conviction, we can still end up there.

[640] So comforting, yes.

[641] Yeah, and you, it's true.

[642] Oh my gosh, it's so true.

[643] And thank you for, you know, recapping that so beautifully.

[644] It was cool to hear you put it together like that because it's just, you don't know how you get where you are, I think.

[645] And suddenly you're there and you thought you would never be there and there you are.

[646] And I think that in a way, I realized that that had to happen.

[647] And it had to happen early.

[648] The universe, whoever, had to show me, like, this is what happens, this is what happens.

[649] You know, this is how it goes.

[650] And if you don't create some boundaries for yourself and you don't create some type of check -in with whatever you want for you, God only knows where it can go.

[651] So it's part of the growth.

[652] It's part of the process that helps us to figure out who do we actually want to be.

[653] and at what point will you actually stand up for yourself?

[654] Because it wasn't like he was touching me. He didn't do anything physically to me that would make me, like, don't, you know, get away from me. It wasn't that.

[655] It was like this mental thing.

[656] Slow little steps.

[657] Oh, like, yeah, this is a little uncomfortable.

[658] Now this is a little comfortable.

[659] And in its totality, if you walked in, he said, here's the game plan.

[660] By the end of this, you're going to have your shirt off and your pants on, but you'd go, no, I'm out.

[661] But it's the baby steps, right?

[662] That's what's so painful is.

[663] All the little spiky senses where you're like, eh, and then they just walk you down a path, right?

[664] Mm -hmm, mm -hmm.

[665] It's ill. It is very interesting.

[666] And to this day, I, you know, really, really work on trusting that gut, like that whole gut check thing, where even if it's just the smallest thing that's raising his finger, like, I don't really like this.

[667] Something about this is weird.

[668] And even if I can, and I'm so good, like we all are at talking the sense into it.

[669] No, it's not like that.

[670] The only reason why you feel like that is because that person's a little bit aggressive and it'll be fine.

[671] And they might just had a bad day.

[672] And I sit here and talk myself into or out of that gut check.

[673] And so I really work very hard daily right now to say, like, that was the first thing that came to you.

[674] Listen, like there's a reason why that came up for you.

[675] So stop trying to make it okay.

[676] So that's a hard process.

[677] Yeah, and I think, well, one, I love that you make a point to say, I'm not against nudity.

[678] I'm not against any of this.

[679] What I'm against is being sold one thing and delivered another, which I think we can all relate to.

[680] But I do wonder if what made you vulnerable to that situation, if any of it was, you're 19, man, you're trying to fake it till you make it a little bit.

[681] Like, you're got it, you've got to embody a pop star.

[682] So you're kind of like, oh, yeah, I'm down.

[683] Oh, yeah, I got the, like, you know, part of that fraudulent thing that.

[684] I think we all carry a little bit as like, I know that when I've been in that situation, I've regretted some of the things.

[685] Mostly it was because I was trying to act like I knew what was up.

[686] Like, oh, yeah, yeah, I get that.

[687] And I think the other thing that I dealt with a lot of, and again, this is another daily practice that I'm constantly working on, is this thought that everybody knows better than me. Because I was such a shorthy, I was such a baby.

[688] And I was like, well, he knows.

[689] I mean, shoot, he shot some of the most incredible people on the planet.

[690] Like, why wouldn't he know what look?

[691] good and you're standing there, you feel awkward as hell, just period.

[692] Like, anytime someone throws a camera in your face and, like, you feel crazy.

[693] There's no natural version of that at all.

[694] And so you're trying to, like, find a pose, find a position.

[695] Like, is my mouth right?

[696] Is my, like, hips right?

[697] Like, it's my show.

[698] Like, what do I do?

[699] And so if the person's kind of like, a little this, a little that, try this, take that down, put that up, you're kind of like, oh, well, they must know, right?

[700] And so this idea of everybody knowing more than you, I think, something we also all struggle with as opposed to being like, no, I do know what's good for me. You don't know what's good for me. I know what's good for me. And that went on for a long time for me thinking that since everyone had more experience and I was 1 ,000 % faking it.

[701] I mean, I pretended I knew what I was doing until I believed it, you know, and definitely please hope everyone else does too.

[702] And that was a big setback from that because I figured other people knew more than I would.

[703] This should not at all ever be mistaken for the notion of poor us.

[704] You got to do the thing you love.

[705] I got to do the thing I love.

[706] I don't think anyone's complaining about that.

[707] I appreciate the honesty with what the reality of it is.

[708] So the other part that was so poignant is you being on tour, you've been on tour forever.

[709] You're in a new city every single day.

[710] This notion that you might see something or experience it is a fairy tale.

[711] You don't.

[712] You leave one airplane to get in, one bus to get on one backstage, and they all look the same.

[713] And it's just endless.

[714] In the meantime, when you're not doing that, you're doing sometimes two, three photo shoots a day.

[715] And the requests are just, they're never ending.

[716] And you have this probably the same that my wife, that she has and I on some level have, which is, I don't want this ride to stop.

[717] I can't let it stop If I dare turn down this one photo shoot That might lead to me becoming apathetic and checked out And I can't keep this thing going But you know you just described this moment of being Backstage in this little cinder block box And your day -to -day manager who I believe has been your friend since you were four or something Comes in and you're crying and you're just like I just need it to stop And yet the fear of it stop and going away.

[718] Right, right.

[719] I mean, what a catch -22 to be in.

[720] If you're buying into that logic.

[721] Which you don't know any other way of thinking about it because no one else that you ever met has had this experience.

[722] So it's not like you can go to somebody and be like, hey, remember when you kind of first getting started?

[723] Did you feel like no, you don't know anybody that's been through this?

[724] The mentorship, although you might be meeting people and surely you're like in awe that you're in the same room with certain people, but you guys don't have a relationship at this point.

[725] And so there is definitely, who do you ask about how does this go?

[726] Or is this normal?

[727] Or is this not normal?

[728] Or is it too much?

[729] Or is it just right?

[730] Or is this just how it is?

[731] There's no one to ask.

[732] So in so many ways, you kind of are winging it.

[733] And most of the time, as we all do, we subscribe to that messaging that, you know, oh, well, you know, there's 100 other people ready to replace you.

[734] You know, hey, 100 other people wish they were you right now.

[735] And you know that.

[736] like, shit, I know, because I'm the 99th person.

[737] I just happened to maybe come over to this side for two seconds.

[738] And so you know that, and you know that, you know, this is a dream many people would want to achieve.

[739] So it is definitely so interesting what you bring up, I think, is at that point of, at what point do you start to create boundaries for yourself, which I think is very important in any life, any life, anyone, this is not singular to an entertainment industry or anything like that.

[740] There's a part of us that, especially like American us, that is very, very, if we're not burning the candle at both ends, if we're not dying from exhaustion, if we're not, you know, completely outworking, you know, undersleeping, everyone else we know, that we're not going to be successful and we're not going to make it and we're not doing enough.

[741] and at what point do we start to, one, think about ourselves in regards to our health and our mental health and caring for your temple, which is your body, and just your mind and your soul and your spirit, and we're just not taught those things.

[742] We are not encouraged to do it, and it's not a habit that we're encouraged to make.

[743] So I think that moment that you're describing in the book was really, I still didn't know how to do it, and I still totally thought, shoot, if I take a break, I just couldn't, it was a breakdown.

[744] couldn't take it anymore.

[745] I couldn't do one more moment of anything.

[746] I had to go.

[747] I had to flee.

[748] But there was still that moment where it's like, I probably won't even come back to any of this.

[749] It was just that I couldn't tolerate it anymore, so it didn't matter at that point.

[750] But this idea of balance and this idea of having some space, I think it's a big deal for all of us.

[751] Doesn't matter if you're a lawyer or if you're a medical practitioner or whomever that you are, we all do this thing where we think we have to overwork.

[752] work to be successful.

[753] Well, and then Dax talked about his New Year's resolution from two years ago, and mine was to stop answering, how are you with, great, I'm busy.

[754] Because it is like everyone's go -to, because like you said, it feels like you're not worthy or productive if you're not burning the candle at both ends.

[755] If you're not busy all the time, if you don't have a million things going on, if you're not overworked, you feel like you're not good enough or you're not doing enough.

[756] And I was like, that's a problem that we're all going around saying, I'm so busy, I'm so busy, I'm so busy.

[757] So true.

[758] And we don't take care of ourselves.

[759] Oh, I think anyone who's got a boss knows what it's like to get a email during dinner time and feel like you have to be available to these people long after you've left work.

[760] Every friend I have deals with that.

[761] There's actual studies and data about employers respect employees with boundaries more than they respect.

[762] So at first, you think you're, unlikable and you're not cooperative, but it does turn out that it elevates you in people's mind that you care enough about yourself to have boundaries.

[763] It demonstrates that you have value for yourself and then now I see you as having value.

[764] Right, right.

[765] I'm enjoying this like so, this is too good.

[766] Let me tell you, this whole podcast world is a, it's good.

[767] I didn't realize it was this good.

[768] The reason why it's so good is, it's because everything else is such a damn rush.

[769] Like, you know, you're going on Jimmy Kim or James Cornyn or, and like, you got five minutes or less to tell, like, the funniest story you could possibly tell and try to relate to whoever you can and then get the hell on and do the quick song and buy.

[770] And you don't ever have like a moment to go deeper and express.

[771] And so this is really cool.

[772] I see why y 'all like it.

[773] And I'm really happy to be a new converted lover of this place.

[774] Thank you.

[775] So thank you too.

[776] And thank you for you.

[777] And I think the other thing is, People don't even seem like they care to ask you anything that's layers deeper.

[778] It feels like you are interested.

[779] So that's really cool.

[780] Thank you.

[781] Stay tuned for more armchair expert, if you dare.

[782] I wonder what the emotional component was for you.

[783] Did you have a moment where you grew up in Hell's Kitchen in Manhattan, most densely populated city in America?

[784] I grew up in rural, I'm just going to say, white trashiness, but what's similar is that all the dudes hanging in the neighborhood who had no jobs to go to, everyone had a hustle.

[785] Everyone was trying to get something.

[786] And I was overtly aware that everyone wanted something of mine.

[787] And I wonder, was there a moment where you recognized, oh, all these people that are, quote, managing me or guiding me or are my label president or all this, oh, they just the same hustlers that I knew to have my guard up for as a kid, but I let the wolves in the hen house.

[788] Did you have any emotional moment when you're like, oh, fuck, they're just hustling too, and they're just trying to get everything for me too?

[789] And what does that feel like?

[790] Does it feel like betrayal?

[791] Does it feel like heartbreak?

[792] Do you expect it?

[793] I think that I have been blessed to have some, people who really did genuinely want to protect me, I think.

[794] I really do.

[795] I think that they did want the best for me. They did want to save me from what they knew is such a dirty, greasy, grimy, take, take type of business and then kind of spit you out, like, oh, I got what I want from you and you're finishing out of me, you know?

[796] So there's so much of that energy in this space that they did want to protect me. I think that, of course, by nature, it's difficult because you are putting together a friendship and business.

[797] And I actually do believe that friendships and business can excel and can work.

[798] I'm not of the like my like separate friends and business.

[799] I don't think it always has to be like that.

[800] I truly know you can be friends and do good business.

[801] Well, I live with my co -host, so.

[802] See, so that'll tell you everything you need to know.

[803] But I think that it also by nature, it does make you have to be more aware, I think, because I think later I started to realize that a lot of the things that I even thought were my dreams were other people's dreams that I was executing for them.

[804] Yeah.

[805] And a portion of that is a beautiful exchange.

[806] You know, I help you reach your dreams.

[807] help me reach my dreams together.

[808] We're all growing.

[809] There's balanced state.

[810] There's surely something really good that comes from that.

[811] In an unbalanced state, it starts to be, I think, deceiving as to does a person really want this for you?

[812] Or do they want this for whatever?

[813] It might be.

[814] And I think that's where it becomes so necessary for you to have your kind of gut in check and for you to have clarity about what you.

[815] you need and what brings you happiness because you can find yourself taken away by all these things that are, you know, motivating people for reasons that might not always be in your best interests.

[816] And you might have not even totally realized it.

[817] So I did find that I had to start to become more aware of that where I would probably be a little bit more trusting because I was like, but this is mine and he's been with me for and we got such a, and look at, you know, we're doing so and also still be awake to the fact that, okay, but what do you need and making sure that it's okay that you're good with that?

[818] And then if it all adds up, then great.

[819] Everybody can get what they need and it's all cool.

[820] But you can get lost in it, I think, sometimes.

[821] Well, isn't the overriding fear really for all of us that if I have these boundaries, if I create this hurdle for somebody, that might be the thing that I find out, oh, they didn't love me that much, that we think we have to be totally available for somebody doing it on their terms in order to deserve their love when we're just nervous to find out that if we have this hurdle or this boundary that someone might bail out.

[822] Isn't that like at the bottom of it all?

[823] That resonated with me and since so much of our lives, you know, because of our different experiences and the different bruises and wounds we're trying to nurse all the time with abandonment is at the root of so much of what fuels us or what gives us that level of fear or that underlying tone that we don't even realize and I think that yes I think you know because abandonment has definitely been something that I'm pretty sure 99 .9 if not 100 of us have all experienced in some way there is that fear of like, will you stay if I don't agree with you?

[824] Like, would you actually be okay if I don't think that same thing?

[825] And like I said, with my mother, it's always been such a, you know, a hard opinion where it was kind of like, if I didn't agree, it would be so much to even deal with that that I was just like, you know what, I'm going to agree so that we can just move on.

[826] And I think a lot of that trained me to do things sometimes that maybe didn't always stand up for my own truth.

[827] And that becomes tricky because then you get into that place where it's like, well, maybe you're the only stability I have in this thing.

[828] And so, of course, we're all looking for security.

[829] Okay, so the last thing I want to say to you is, as I said, I'm in AA.

[830] The thing I love about AA is that all the life lessons I've picked up have been from someone telling me how they failed, not how they were victorious.

[831] It was them going, I fucked up in this way.

[832] and I go, oh, I see you.

[833] I do that same thing.

[834] And now my ears are open.

[835] So I think what you've done with this book more myself, I think it's so brave of you to be vulnerable and go, I'm Alicia Keys.

[836] I'm in my late 30s.

[837] I'm a millionaire and I've got more Grammys than fucking teeth in my mouth.

[838] And I can't say who I am.

[839] And I have a fear of being true to who I am.

[840] So for all the other women or young men or whatever, who find that to be a challenge, you admitting that that's a challenge for you is very powerful.

[841] And I think it's very cool of you.

[842] It's a very cool way to be of service.

[843] So I'm really happy for you that this is the book you wrote.

[844] I really appreciate those words.

[845] My favorite part was you saying he's going to curl up in the bed and read 10 minutes just to have some perspective and then you got stuck in the vibe for like a couple hours.

[846] That is so amazing.

[847] And I really do hope that's, the experience of the people that are reading this.

[848] And I'm so grateful that I have been able to come to a place.

[849] And, you know, it seems you too and we have been able to come to a place that I can embrace the parts of me that are wounded and not totally whole or full of self -doubt.

[850] And by my journey of embracing those things, I feel so much more open.

[851] I feel so much more human.

[852] more of a connection with people that in a lot of my life, I don't think I allowed myself to have because there were all these masks and all this armor and all these mechanisms that I thought were kind of keeping me strong and allowing me to plow through the stone wall.

[853] And I am just so grateful to be at a place now where it's like actually all those other parts are the parts that are rich and full of complexity and interesting and make you so nuanced and beautiful and complex and gorgeous and like that is what makes us understand each other.

[854] So it's so much more freeing to just honor you.

[855] And I love that we're all trying to figure that out.

[856] Well, again, I can't relate to winning Grammys or opening my mouth and Coltrane Sacks comes out but all the vulnerability shit i was like oh i know this person there's a big part of me that's this person so i just thank you for it man i hope we get to talk to you again i'd love to do it in person so i can see what that hat how that hat pops in real life i'll try to wear another hat when i meet you in person i might have this same hat though this is my favorite hat so it's a good one you know all right alicia well we love you and thank you for taking the time and we really hope to talk to you again Thank you so much.

[857] I can't wait to see us.

[858] Your face game is tight.

[859] It's a good FaceTime game.

[860] Come on, come on.

[861] You know what?

[862] You're right about you too.

[863] I doubted you for about three minutes, but you were right.

[864] All right.

[865] Be safe.

[866] All right.

[867] Talk to you later.

[868] All right.

[869] And now my favorite part of the show, the fact check with my soulmate Monica Padman.

[870] This entire fact check is sponsored by Quibi.

[871] It is.

[872] We are excited.

[873] I have already consumed one of the shows from Quibi.

[874] Flipped.

[875] Flipped.

[876] With Caitlin Olson and Will Forte, two of my favorite comedians alive.

[877] Oh, we love those guys.

[878] They've both been on the show.

[879] They have.

[880] And both of them together.

[881] Unbelievable.

[882] For real.

[883] Yeah.

[884] I mean, you want to talk about greater than some of their parts, and each of their individual parts are humongous.

[885] I think Caitlin's one of the funniest human beings working in television or film.

[886] Will too.

[887] And Forte is obviously.

[888] a genius a genius it's so good i just love it and so if for people who don't know what quibby is quibby is a brand new streaming platform and it delivers movie quality episodes in 10 minutes or less so it's really kind of designed for people to watch on their phone which initially i was like really making content for phones specifically but uh the stuff is so high end yes like all the shows they have on there like if you've seen this the most dangerous game with leum hemsworth it looks like a huge blockbuster movie, but it's in 10 -minute segments, which I love because it's so bingeable.

[889] It's really exciting because you get a new episode every day, so you have something to look forward to, which we love, because we always get nervous that our things are running out when we hate that.

[890] Yes, that's true.

[891] So what's great is they look like huge blockbuster movies.

[892] Even Flip, which is a comedy, is shot beautifully.

[893] Yeah, so every one of them looks phenomenal.

[894] They all have huge actors.

[895] There's like tons of fun shows.

[896] And what I like to, about it is they're not launching with like two things.

[897] Sure.

[898] This is a ton of content.

[899] It is.

[900] With huge stars of every kind of genre.

[901] Yeah, so we don't feel scared that we're not going to have enough.

[902] And your wife, my mother, was in a show.

[903] She was in Thanks a Million, which is Jennifer Lopez's show.

[904] And it's amazing.

[905] Kristen was when we first got the offer for it.

[906] It was like, I cannot believe I did not think of this.

[907] idea it's oh yeah it should yeah so yeah so she got a hundred thousand dollars is that what it was yep to give to somebody which she gave it to this educator we know who totally deserves it and then that person has to give half of their money to someone else they think deserves it it's really really cool anyways you guys i have quibby you can go right now and download and get a 90 day free trial it has a ton of fresh original shows new episodes come out every day I love it.

[908] Commence.

[909] Facky.

[910] How much did you leave in of us singing her music before she got on Zoom?

[911] None.

[912] None.

[913] Yeah.

[914] Okay, well, a fun thing we did was while we were waiting for her to join the Zoom call, I just put on some of her greatest hits on the I packs.

[915] And we sang along waiting for her.

[916] She's so prolific.

[917] She is.

[918] I even forgot some of the songs.

[919] I'm going to be dead honest with you.

[920] I wanted to get Diary of, right?

[921] That's the song I like this.

[922] She says, baby boy.

[923] Yeah, you like that one.

[924] And in the process, I'm zooming past all these other songs where I'm like, oh, yeah, that's a giant hit.

[925] That's a giant hit.

[926] Oh, that's a great song.

[927] That's a giant hit.

[928] You feel me?

[929] I love her.

[930] I'm in love with her.

[931] I already loved her.

[932] Now I'm in love with her.

[933] I really did.

[934] I was already such a huge fan.

[935] And then she was so special, thoughtful.

[936] Normal?

[937] Very normal.

[938] Very down to earth.

[939] That's what I want to say mostly.

[940] She's normal.

[941] Yeah.

[942] Good job, Alicia.

[943] Set out to be spectacular and you're normal.

[944] No, she's both.

[945] She's both spectacular and normal.

[946] I just think, yeah, such an uphill battle when you're starting at such a young age in this industry, and in the entertainment industry and fame and all that stuff.

[947] It's so much to bounce for a young person.

[948] Yeah, I would have been dead.

[949] No question.

[950] Yeah.

[951] Too much money.

[952] Too much problems.

[953] More money.

[954] You know how good.

[955] Well, you've seen the tattoo on my back.

[956] No, any more problems.

[957] I'm small in my back.

[958] I wouldn't even be surprised if that were the case.

[959] I would like that, yeah.

[960] Are you going to get any more tats?

[961] If I didn't act, I'd have a lot more.

[962] It's just too big of a pain in the ass to get them covered.

[963] Like, if I were to play the Joe Exotic.

[964] Ah, sure.

[965] I'm going to be there an hour and a half earlier getting this whole thing covered on my shoulder.

[966] Do you think he had any tats of tigers?

[967] I have to assume so.

[968] If he didn't, that would be ridiculous.

[969] Like I've got car tats to use.

[970] Maybe he had a strict policy to not have any tats.

[971] Mixed business with pleasure.

[972] Yeah.

[973] Yeah.

[974] A couple updates.

[975] One is I guess Joe from somehow behind bars has made a statement that he wants either Brad Pitt or David Spade to play him in a bio.

[976] Yeah.

[977] Do you know this?

[978] What a wide range.

[979] I love it.

[980] Well, everyone wants Brad Pitt to play them.

[981] So that's just.

[982] Yeah.

[983] Yeah.

[984] That goes, I guess, yeah, everyone wants, I would want Brad Pitt to play me. Even though my.

[985] story wouldn't make a ton of sense if he was playing me like i want charliez to play me you do not really if anyone could do it if anyone could pull off brown face no no no no no offensive way i don't think she'd be her because she turned into monster remember monsters she played she's very transformative yeah very so you're best friend erin weakly is here he's leaving tomorrow how do you feel sad yeah i've been having so much fun laughing at absolutely nothing none of our jokes translate to anyone else because you guys are constantly around and we are just laughing so hard about the same four things and they're just not funny to anyone else which i accept but boy are they funny to us almost every single thing becomes about bass and mackerel and steelhead and sturgeon well that's true most things lead to fish but i agree that generally feels pretty insular when you guys are in it yeah yeah it doesn't feel inviting.

[986] Not really.

[987] Yeah.

[988] It's hard because I don't know if anyone thinks any of that's funny.

[989] I can only speak for myself.

[990] Yeah, speak for yourself.

[991] Speak for yourself.

[992] I think it's funny for six seconds.

[993] But then generally you guys like to turn it into six minutes.

[994] At least, yeah.

[995] Minimally.

[996] My brother hated us.

[997] When we discovered each other, we would sit in the basement.

[998] I remember one time in particular he came downstairs and we were laughing at a um a slice pop can just looking at the circle on it and thinking what it was saying and all this stuff and we were really really laughing hysterically and he came down stairs and he's like what are you doing fucking laughing at a pop can you guys are full of shit you're not really laughing he screamed at us and we weren't really laughing yeah somehow it was all a charade i think he probably felt left out well now that i'm 45 i think it's sweet i think he did feel left out and he and I used to have those jokes and then all of a sudden there was a new guy around here had him but he didn't really he was in and out because he was five years older than me so he only wanted to have inside jokes with me like one day a week well I wanted them seven days a week of course yeah I do think it's really cute and fun and funny to be around you guys because this summer we were around you guys around each other a bit but it felt different maybe the amount of time wasn't as concentrated or something I don't know but it felt different So it feels like I'm really peeking in to your relationship, and it's very cute.

[999] It is.

[1000] Isn't that mostly annoying?

[1001] No, it's cute.

[1002] It just feels very excluding.

[1003] It feels a little excluding.

[1004] Yeah, which you know is not my intention.

[1005] I want everyone on board.

[1006] I wish everyone thought the pills.

[1007] So there are goop pills called, oh, why am I so effing tired?

[1008] Yeah, and they are good.

[1009] They work.

[1010] They work.

[1011] And Kristen gave some to Weekly, and then he was taking them.

[1012] He loved him.

[1013] And then he happened to read on the bottom that, It was chocked full of sardines and mackerel and all these fish.

[1014] Yeah.

[1015] Yeah.

[1016] Then we just started talking about how many bass are in each pill.

[1017] And there's a 12 -inch bass in every pill.

[1018] And then I recognize that's not fun for anyone else.

[1019] But for us, it's very fun.

[1020] But I was there for the beginning of that conversation when it started and it was fun.

[1021] But then...

[1022] We just beat it into...

[1023] Well, you just took it to a new level.

[1024] But then it felt once it hit that, like, Oh, there's no place for me in this conversation anymore.

[1025] So then I'm just sitting there watching you guys do a thing for 10 minutes and then I had to get up and leave.

[1026] Yep.

[1027] Yeah.

[1028] I recognize it.

[1029] I don't really know what to do.

[1030] What would you do if you were me?

[1031] Because it's really funny for me. Oh, our newest one, right, is a gangbanger who cares a lot that his friend pursues his artistic dreams.

[1032] Have you been listening to that one?

[1033] That's the one that took over the last couple days.

[1034] Okay.

[1035] And it was like a gangbanger and he really appreciated Hector's contribution.

[1036] to the life into gangbanging, but he noticed he's really good at comedy and he should do an open mic night at the laugh factory.

[1037] And what's funny is that this gangbanger knows all the names of the different places.

[1038] So he knows about Broadway.

[1039] Uh -huh.

[1040] Yeah.

[1041] And then the more he knows about it, the funnier it is.

[1042] Yeah.

[1043] Yeah.

[1044] Okay.

[1045] That's funny.

[1046] They don't get funnier when I explain him.

[1047] This is a broader question, but do you think when you're around him, do you think you've feel more childlike?

[1048] Oh, big time.

[1049] Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[1050] I feel 12 years old when I'm around him.

[1051] Mm -hmm.

[1052] Yeah.

[1053] Which I like.

[1054] Yeah.

[1055] He's also being textbook weekly.

[1056] He is who he is since he was 11.

[1057] Yeah.

[1058] Which is he now he has two puppies.

[1059] He has no business having these puppies.

[1060] Oh, they're such an errand.

[1061] Oh, they're so cute.

[1062] Textbook weekly.

[1063] He ended up with two puppies that he now is taking care of and realizing, oh, shit, this is a ton of work.

[1064] They're so cute.

[1065] They are cute, but that's the sweetest part about him is he saw anything that sounds like a good idea.

[1066] Yeah.

[1067] We're opposite in that way.

[1068] Oh, interesting.

[1069] I would have went straight to the 6 a .m. them whining and shitting everywhere.

[1070] I'm like arrested or confined by too much frontal lobe thinking.

[1071] Me too.

[1072] Yeah.

[1073] And he's just like, yeah, if they look cute in that moment, let's get him.

[1074] We'll worry about the rest later.

[1075] He's a very nice boy.

[1076] He is.

[1077] He's the sweetest, right?

[1078] His essence is just sweetness.

[1079] Okay, Alicia.

[1080] Okay, Alicia Keys.

[1081] Okay.

[1082] So you said that I'd been living at the house for a month before quarantine.

[1083] But it had not been a month.

[1084] They hadn't.

[1085] No. How long had it?

[1086] About two weeks.

[1087] That's it?

[1088] Yeah.

[1089] Two and a half.

[1090] Two.

[1091] Yeah.

[1092] I've never had less of a grip on time than I currently have.

[1093] I know.

[1094] I know.

[1095] I think everyone feels that.

[1096] No one knows what day it is.

[1097] What's going on?

[1098] No. Thank God they extended that tax deadline.

[1099] Oh, right.

[1100] It's June now.

[1101] Yeah.

[1102] People would not.

[1103] They would have missed it unintentionally.

[1104] Where's our calendar?

[1105] Right behind the curtain Oh, it's lost We gotta move it to April We do I want to see who it is Me too What choice male body Okay, so which Whitney Houston duck Is the official one The Miramax one is the official one That's the one that the family was Participating in You know that was directed by Kevin McDonald Who did Last King of Scotland Which one?

[1106] Miramax Oh really?

[1107] Yeah Oh, I love him I know you like that movie He's a very prolific commercial director in England prior to doing Last King of Scotland.

[1108] I used to know about them.

[1109] Well, we just watched Bad Boys.

[1110] Yeah, the third one.

[1111] Which is not directed by Kevin McDonald.

[1112] No, nor is it directed by Michael Bay, which was a shock to me. But it was fun.

[1113] It was very Michael Bay.

[1114] I was good.

[1115] I was surprised.

[1116] I was really surprised.

[1117] Yeah, you were surprised.

[1118] You loved it.

[1119] And then we watched the first one.

[1120] We went back to watch first one.

[1121] We haven't finished it yet.

[1122] But I'm really excited.

[1123] This is all leading to the second one.

[1124] That's the one where they had a human.

[1125] that's your favorite obnoxious budget just visually stunt why is that movie's hard to beat will smith he is so charming he is man and martin lawrence is so funny so funny some people can just say words yeah you know there's certain people that like you don't even need to really write a joke just let them say a sentence and it'll be hysterical yeah just so many of martin's lines i think were intended to be just exposition and then they're so funny yeah Yeah, blessed.

[1126] Hashtag blessed.

[1127] Hashtag blessed.

[1128] Blame it on Jesus.

[1129] Hashtag.

[1130] Hashtag blessed.

[1131] Blame it on Jesus.

[1132] Anyway, so yeah, so Miramax, and then the Showtime one, actually they got sued by Bobby Brown.

[1133] Oh.

[1134] And the estate of Bobby Christina Brown.

[1135] Because they used footage of the reality series being Bobby Brown.

[1136] and they were saying that they didn't have permission to do that.

[1137] Oh, okay.

[1138] Documentaries have weird laws.

[1139] You don't have to get the rights for music.

[1140] If, like, you're filming someone in real life on the street and, like, the bodega behind it is playing Michael Jackson.

[1141] You're fine.

[1142] Really?

[1143] Yeah, so there's all these weird loopholes.

[1144] So I wonder, like, when it comes to showing trademarked footage and stuff, if they have some kind of leeway, I don't know.

[1145] Okay, you said, what do they call it, the sophomore curse, sophomore slump.

[1146] Oh, sophomore slum.

[1147] She talked about mother and daughter relationships being hard.

[1148] Yeah.

[1149] And I was looking up why that is.

[1150] And there are like a lot of articles and a lot of delving into that question, which I thought was interesting.

[1151] And because it is real.

[1152] Oh, yeah.

[1153] It's so real.

[1154] Well, but I think it's the same for fathers and sons.

[1155] I think like both same -sex parent -child relationships are wrong.

[1156] brought with potential.

[1157] Yeah.

[1158] Because for guys, there's like this weird alpha tension.

[1159] Like who's going to be the leader of this family?

[1160] When is the son old enough to not be told what to do?

[1161] It sounds different when his dad's telling him not to do something.

[1162] It sounds like a challenge to his manhood.

[1163] Sure.

[1164] There's all this weird autonomy stuff that you need to get from dad more than mom.

[1165] That's interesting.

[1166] One thing that people were saying, which I thought was interesting, was that women's rights are changing so rapidly that from like generation to generation, they're really different.

[1167] Oh, yeah.

[1168] Uh -huh.

[1169] So girls aren't just going to follow in line with what their mother did or what their grandmother did because things are changing so much.

[1170] Yeah, they might reject the lifestyle the mom had.

[1171] Exactly.

[1172] And the mom might feel judged by that.

[1173] I think that happened with my mom and her mom.

[1174] Yeah.

[1175] Some articles I saw were crediting that as being an issue, which I think really makes a lot of sense.

[1176] Yeah.

[1177] It's weird and I'll not be able to relate to this, but I do think in some ways, like some dads have built some steady, great business that they work their ass off for, right?

[1178] Let's say they've got like a family roofing company and they've got some employees and some trucks and the tools and then you got the son and you want to hand over this thing.

[1179] You work so hard to your son and then you find out your son wants to play guitar in bars.

[1180] Yeah.

[1181] It seems so high risk and you're scared for the sun.

[1182] And you did all this really for the sun.

[1183] Yes, to hand over something turnkey.

[1184] And then they don't want it.

[1185] It feels like, A, you don't appreciate this thing I built for you.

[1186] And then B, you're scaring me by this other choice.

[1187] Yeah.

[1188] Yeah, it's all complicated.

[1189] It's complicated.

[1190] I could imagine, though.

[1191] I know nothing about Alicia's mother.

[1192] I don't know if they have any issues whatsoever.

[1193] But let's just say, I can imagine if you're Alicia's mother, who was raised in Toledo, Ohio, her dad did not want her to go pursue acting.

[1194] she moved to New York She did it on her own And now she has this daughter And now she gives her daughter The childhood she wanted Which is yes, let's put a piano In the middle of this one bedroom apartment And let's dedicate your life to this And I'm going to support this like crazy And then your daughter gets this thing That you maybe wanted And you're going, oh, if I had had this, I would be her So I think that's complicated Sure And then you, I bet, want to have some owner over that so you feel a part of it like this is a result of all this nurturing I did and then as the child you're like no no I wrote these songs I practiced I at least I have no idea what the relationship is but that's certainly a dynamic that's right for some challenges oh for sure I think the times that I got grumpiest at my dad is when like he would casually kind of mention in a way that I at least I interpreted as him saying I got my sense of humor from him or like taking some kind of I got it.

[1195] Yeah, that was always really triggering to me. Or he'd say, like, I'm the one who quit a steady job and started businesses over and over again.

[1196] I'm the risk taker, and you got that from me. As an adult, you were up.

[1197] You didn't like that.

[1198] Yeah, yeah, I didn't like it.

[1199] Because in my mind, I was like, no, no, you left at three.

[1200] Uh -huh.

[1201] And you don't get to claim any of this because you weren't around.

[1202] Yeah.

[1203] But a bigger me should have included him in this experience.

[1204] I'm sure that does have a lot to do with the first.

[1205] fact that he left because I don't have any of that like I stuff with your dad or my mom as far as like taking credit.

[1206] Uh -huh.

[1207] Also, they don't.

[1208] Like, they don't ever say like, oh, you got that.

[1209] Like, I think they are more like, where'd you get that?

[1210] Where'd this girl come from?

[1211] Yeah, where'd you get that?

[1212] But every now and them, and normally it's the other person.

[1213] Like, my mom would be like, oh, you got that from your dad.

[1214] Oh, uh -huh.

[1215] For some reason, I like it.

[1216] Uh -huh.

[1217] I like it more.

[1218] And I think maybe part of it, which is deeper, is in a weird way, they're giving their spouse a compliment.

[1219] Yeah.

[1220] Oh, you get your discipline from him.

[1221] Uh -huh.

[1222] I hear that as, oh, you think he has a lot of discipline.

[1223] Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[1224] So I like when they give each other compliments.

[1225] That is nice.

[1226] They have to do it via this other channel.

[1227] Well, the inescapable truth is, yeah, you got everything from both of them and I got everything from.

[1228] For sure.

[1229] That's just the cold, hard facts of reproduction.

[1230] Yes and no. I got all of my genes from those two people.

[1231] Genes, yeah.

[1232] But the cultural layer I do think is large.

[1233] Yeah, yeah.

[1234] If you have a chip on your shoulder like I have had a lot of times in my life, you hear everything as taking credit away from you.

[1235] Yeah.

[1236] I mean, I have that, but I don't have it with them.

[1237] I don't know why, but I do have it with everybody else.

[1238] Uh -huh.

[1239] I need a lot of credit.

[1240] Oh, even I triggered you yesterday on accident by saying you don't need me anymore.

[1241] Yeah, you were talking about the show.

[1242] How good your show's doing.

[1243] Yeah.

[1244] Which I'm so proud of and happy for.

[1245] And I said, you don't need me anymore.

[1246] But that didn't feel to me, that wasn't you taking away credit.

[1247] You were giving me credit.

[1248] Yeah.

[1249] But somehow it was.

[1250] Yeah, you didn't like how.

[1251] It didn't land how I wanted it to.

[1252] Well, I guess implied in it is you.

[1253] needed me at one point, which is not what I was ever suggesting.

[1254] No, and I don't think that's what bothered me. I think what scared me is the idea of things are separate.

[1255] Uh -huh.

[1256] Or that I'm saying in some capacity that now I can go my own way and you can go your own way.

[1257] Maybe like this is your show and that's my show.

[1258] Oh, uh -huh.

[1259] And I don't feel that at all.

[1260] I feel that this is our show and That's our show.

[1261] Uh -huh.

[1262] I especially feel that this is our show.

[1263] Yeah, of course.

[1264] And so I get scared about the idea that, like, it's all separate or something.

[1265] Right.

[1266] But I didn't intend any of that.

[1267] Oh, I know.

[1268] I know.

[1269] I was just saying you're a media mogul now.

[1270] And I was proud of you.

[1271] I don't know if people are keeping up.

[1272] I had a very big challenge assigned to me last week and I have completed it.

[1273] You did?

[1274] Yeah.

[1275] Oh, my God, when?

[1276] Yesterday.

[1277] While you were talking to me?

[1278] No. Oh, my God.

[1279] I guess we'll have to wait for the clip.

[1280] Everyone will have to wait for Wednesday.

[1281] Well, first of all, I'm proud of you for accomplishing that challenge because I know you weren't looking forward to it.

[1282] Yeah.

[1283] The challenge was I had to have phone sex.

[1284] Yeah.

[1285] And I was very scared.

[1286] Uh -huh.

[1287] Yeah, it was an experience.

[1288] that's for sure memorable it was memorable yeah it was memorable yeah it'll be inextricably linked to corona too like which is a period of your life you'll remember a lot anyways yeah oh my god it's true actually i was thinking that recently we have a guest coming up a week from today who talks about basically having like this like visceral memory of a period of time in his life that was like kind of hard he talks about like in a comedy club and he can like remember the smell and like walking up the stairs he has this like really deep memory of it and I was thinking about it after and I think the memories where you're most vulnerable are more etched in oh sure yeah yeah like those you can repeat your body can repeat more because you're like more open I think to the world and then it gets etched.

[1289] I agree.

[1290] So we're vulnerable right now to Corona.

[1291] So things that are happening now are going to feel pretty visceral, I think.

[1292] I do too.

[1293] Some people commented on our debate, and they liked both of us.

[1294] What debate?

[1295] About whether I should talk about being happy during this and stuff.

[1296] Oh, yeah.

[1297] And so one aspect you and I neglected to think of, which I thought was a really cool one, First and foremost, people were, like, they saw your intention and loved it.

[1298] Uh -huh.

[1299] And then one person wrote, like, what pisses me off is the celebrities complaining about quarantine when they're in a big fancy house and they have a ton of food.

[1300] Yeah.

[1301] And all the shit, and they're not panicked.

[1302] That's what's annoying is someone acting like they got it tough when I know they don't have it tough.

[1303] I understand that.

[1304] And I hadn't even thought of that aspect.

[1305] I think when we were talking about it.

[1306] And I was like, oh, yeah, people are smart enough to go like, who are you kidding?

[1307] Oh, for sure.

[1308] Yeah.

[1309] But I think in different ways, right?

[1310] Like, that feels like a lie or fraudulent.

[1311] Or a lot of, I think some of these celebrities are sincere.

[1312] I think they're, they also might be going through a hard.

[1313] I mean, I don't think it's not fair for us to say they aren't.

[1314] Maybe they're outdoor people and their real community people and they are unhappy.

[1315] Yeah.

[1316] But that's what's a little tone deaf.

[1317] For sure.

[1318] I personally think all of that is absolutely true.

[1319] Someone's walking around complaining when they have it far, far, far better than most people.

[1320] That's a problem.

[1321] Like, I would never ask you to complain.

[1322] And I, at the same time, would say maybe don't strut how fantastic everything is going.

[1323] Yeah.

[1324] Maybe like more of a middle groundy.

[1325] Yeah.

[1326] Oh, again, fuck the money factor, which of course is huge.

[1327] But the real advantage I have over most people, I'm with a ton of people.

[1328] Yeah.

[1329] Like I'm quarantining with you, Kristen, weekly, Anna, two kids, which is its own misery at times.

[1330] But by and large, I'm not lonely.

[1331] Definitely.

[1332] There's no loneliness happening in our house.

[1333] If anything, it's just like everyone wants a little space occasionally.

[1334] Yeah.

[1335] But anyways, that's probably one element.

[1336] element that's making me enjoy it more, which is really not money -related, per se.

[1337] 100%.

[1338] Yeah.

[1339] That's very true.

[1340] Okay.

[1341] So you said there are studies and data that employers respect employees with boundaries.

[1342] And there's a podcast.

[1343] And I didn't know what podcast you meant.

[1344] I kind of assume maybe you're referring to Adam Grant.

[1345] Oh, I know exactly what it was.

[1346] I'm so glad we're talking about it.

[1347] It's from that book that everyone really loved about setting boundaries.

[1348] Essentialism.

[1349] Essentialism.

[1350] Got it.

[1351] That's where it's from.

[1352] I see.

[1353] Yeah.

[1354] Okay.

[1355] Okay, sorry Adam Grant, not you this time.

[1356] Although I do feel like Adam Grant would say something like that.

[1357] He said, I was looking into him to see if he said this.

[1358] And he does describe two types of people.

[1359] He says people who like to blend work in life are called integrators.

[1360] And in contrast, segmenters like to keep their work in personal life separate.

[1361] Uh -huh.

[1362] Well, you and I are the ultimate integrators.

[1363] Yeah.

[1364] Yeah, yeah.

[1365] The only friction we ever have is like transitioning from.

[1366] the two for sure yeah but he said in general segmenters so not us yeah report better well -being than integrators but i know why because you're never turned off like you're never present for either probably but i think in this case it's more like your email's open 24 -7 you're always available to that world yeah i think he would probably consider himself an integrator yeah see i mean it seems with his rapidity in response time exactly okay you said hell's kitchen is the most densely populated city in america i just met manhattan but yes continue okay gutenberg new jersey oh is the most densely populated incorporated place in the united states oh wow hell's kitchen is also known as clinton um after george or bill i'm gonna guess neither neither neither Oh, no. There was a fact I didn't look up.

[1367] Hold on, but I can do it right now.

[1368] You said, and you could be right about this.

[1369] 13, 14, 15, yeah.

[1370] 15.

[1371] Okay, so she has 15 Grammys, and you said she has more grammies than teeth in her mouth.

[1372] Oh, I guess we would have to know how many teeth she has in her mouth, but presumably more than 15.

[1373] How many teeth are you supposed to have 26 or something?

[1374] I don't know.

[1375] I was just trying to count my teeth.

[1376] Well, it couldn't be 26.

[1377] That'd be 13 on top, 13 on bottom.

[1378] That means you'd have an extra tooth on one side.

[1379] that's got to be like 24 or 28 or here smile i'll count you okay i'm just going to count one side and multiply it by two one three four five six seven so 28 and then did you have wisdom teeth or do you have them yanked minor yanked minor yanked too so what do you 30 i no i had four 32 yeah i'm gonna google this 32 Two teeth.

[1380] It says 32.

[1381] And that is including wisdom.

[1382] As we get older, these teeth shed and adult, by the way, of all the things that I think are the weirdest that we do is that we're born with a set of teeth, they fall out and other ones come in.

[1383] I know.

[1384] You hate that.

[1385] Well, I feel like that couldn't evolve.

[1386] When I think about the evolution of having two different sets of teeth, I think about, okay, well, the first animal just had one set of teeth, right?

[1387] Yeah.

[1388] And they were what?

[1389] Were they middle size?

[1390] But what about like woolly mammoth teeth?

[1391] They were tiny.

[1392] What I'm talking about in humans.

[1393] Oh.

[1394] So the human was born with these small baby teeth, right?

[1395] Okay.

[1396] So we don't know whether they were originally born with adult teeth, then developed baby teeth first, or they were born with baby teeth first and then developed adult teeth.

[1397] You know what I assume they developed baby teeth because that was all that could fit.

[1398] And then evolutionarily speaking, those baby teeth didn't.

[1399] They weren't big enough.

[1400] Yeah.

[1401] So, right.

[1402] So at some point in our history, did adults have these tiny little little.

[1403] teeth that were all spread out and then someone had a mutation where all those fell out and then this other big set of teeth grew up like when you just tried to work out the evolutionary steps it seems impossible i can see an animal having a three chamber heart right and then there's a the mutation and one's born with a four chamber heart and then that's that pumps blood better and then that they pass on their genes and a disproportionate amount now everyone's got four chamber heart now how did someone have just baby teeth and then they had a mutation that was a full other set of teeth growing behind the first set of teeth?

[1404] Do you think maybe originally it was just one set but the adult teeth basically were connected to the baby teeth but up top they weren't too separate they were connected so it was just like a huge tooth most of it behind the gum and then it was just growing and growing and growing and then eventually evolutionarily speaking it was too much teeth in the mouth so then they would break off into halves.

[1405] This makes sense.

[1406] They would break off into halves.

[1407] And so eventually we grew to just have them already separate under the gum.

[1408] Because those are in your gums.

[1409] They are.

[1410] But here's another thing I'm going to throw at you.

[1411] It seems to me it would be easier for the DNA to evolve to just have the teeth be malleable.

[1412] So their baby when you're small and your head's too tiny to fit these big teeth and then the teeth themselves are able to just grow and expand and then some more come in as there's more room in your mouth that makes them way more sense and seems less complicated then just reject all those teeth and then grow big ass ones up top and then send those down but i don't think that material can grow keratin keratin is that what teeth are made of calcium and i mean they grow at some point they start as cells and they become teeth.

[1413] So they do grow originally to become teeth.

[1414] But they stop, just like our bones stop growing.

[1415] Same thing.

[1416] Well, our bones then never stop growing.

[1417] What do you mean?

[1418] They don't stop growing.

[1419] They're constantly replacing themselves.

[1420] You know what I'm saying?

[1421] But they're not growing.

[1422] Like, my bones grew until I was 15 or whatever.

[1423] They're not growing longer.

[1424] Yeah.

[1425] But they are replacing themselves.

[1426] Right.

[1427] But they're not expanding.

[1428] like they were.

[1429] They did for years, many years.

[1430] They did for years, and then they stopped.

[1431] And then they stopped.

[1432] So same with the teeth.

[1433] But the teeth should be able to grow and expand, like your bones.

[1434] But it's a weird solution that there's just a full set of big ass adult teeth sitting above the tiny teeth.

[1435] I don't think it's a, I think it makes the most sense out of all of these.

[1436] That would be like saying, okay, you're born with baby bones.

[1437] And then at some point, those baby bones have to protrude from your skin and reject it so that these big adult bones can grow in.

[1438] That's the system that exists in our teeth.

[1439] But the bones don't work that way because bones don't have any purpose if they're outside of your skin.

[1440] Teeth do.

[1441] You have to use them to chew.

[1442] No, I'm saying kick them out.

[1443] Kick them out.

[1444] Your teeth fall out.

[1445] So I'm saying, what if your bones that work that way?

[1446] And you had to have your humorous fall out so that your adult humorous could descend down into your arm and be full size.

[1447] It makes way more sense that the bone gets bigger.

[1448] And so the teeth should just get bigger.

[1449] I don't know.

[1450] Okay.

[1451] I just don't know.

[1452] All right.

[1453] Okay.

[1454] there's one dentist that's still interested in this conversation, but he's so frustrated with how little we know about it, that he probably, she threw her Walkman out the window.

[1455] Okay, that was all.

[1456] That was all?

[1457] Yeah.

[1458] Well, I love you.

[1459] I love you.

[1460] Bye.

[1461] Bye.

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