319 - Horse Camp

[0] This is exactly right.

[1] My favorite murder.

[2] That's Georgia Hard Star.

[3] Thanks.

[4] That's Karen Kilgara.

[5] You're welcome.

[6] Goodbye.

[7] And we're done.

[8] Easy.

[9] That's all it takes to podcasts.

[10] Lightlifting this week.

[11] Podcasts are easy.

[12] People who complain about them.

[13] Do people complain about podcasts?

[14] Just us.

[15] You know, there's been a lot going on.

[16] Absolutely.

[17] And a lot.

[18] And that's the only explanation of all the things going on in the world that I would forget to bring up last week that the Sherry Papini disappearance and reemergence case.

[19] How has come back around?

[20] Do you know that that case happened in 2016?

[21] That was the year one of this podcast.

[22] And you fucking called it then, too.

[23] Now, I and the rest of America called it along with People magazine who brought, I mean, that's the article I kept seeing posted on social media.

[24] Yeah.

[25] But they finally found through DNA testing who the undetermined male DNA was on her sweatpants and in her underwear.

[26] I forgot that that was there.

[27] Okay.

[28] That was there.

[29] And it was an ex -boyfriend that she.

[30] It is.

[31] Did you read that article?

[32] Yeah.

[33] She went and.

[34] checked up with an ex -boyfriend for how long, like two weeks or something?

[35] Yeah, but like, it doesn't make sense.

[36] He said in the article that she claimed to him, sure she alleges that she was being abused and that's, but then the entire time she was there, she was planning this, she was not eating and hitting herself and doing stuff to look abused when she got back.

[37] Yeah.

[38] I think she just wanted to hang out with an ex -first.

[39] a little bit and chose a really bad way to do it.

[40] But like, and truly like when you say for a little bit, it's like 29 hours.

[41] Like it seems like...

[42] Was that it?

[43] It seems like she would, like the hookup part, the fun part happened and then she was immediately like going into false, racist, hostage accusation plan.

[44] Yeah.

[45] Yeah.

[46] That is, that still boggles the mind.

[47] It's bonkers.

[48] It's bunkers.

[49] There's no, I think maybe she wanted to be famous in some fucking weird way.

[50] You know what I mean?

[51] Like, which worked.

[52] Yeah.

[53] And let's acknowledge that it worked.

[54] Sounds like her husband had no idea and was like obviously he's not, I mean not obviously, but he's not in a plan if he's like sending her off to the old fucking Steve's house or whatever who she used to date.

[55] no and he was the one that was on like whatever the whatever the magazine show was where he was the one telling that story and he was the worried like what a disaster plan what a stomach ache of a reminding me of my late teens early 20s type of plan I'm gonna go I'm gonna do this and it's gonna work no questions asked goodbye and maybe I'll seem kind of popular and get some attention but also make incredibly racist allegations, which I think from the beginning we said were, it's like one was old and one was young and one had long hair and one had short hair and one was mean and one was nice.

[56] No. Tied me to a pole.

[57] Yeah, well, it'll be fun.

[58] They're definitely going to press charges against her, right?

[59] Well, that's what it seems like because that's what they, it seems like that's what they were waiting to do.

[60] They just were waiting for some kind of evidence to come through that was pointing in some direction.

[61] And then once they got that guy's name, he was like, sure, I'll tell you all about it.

[62] Because you can you imagine being that guy?

[63] Then then watching this whole thing explode in the media.

[64] Man. It like makes me cringe because it's like, did she really think no one was going to figure it the fuck out?

[65] Maybe she's one of those people.

[66] Like, everyone's, I'm smart and everyone's stupid.

[67] So no one I fucking understand.

[68] think this and I'm too pretty to be victim blamed and like you know just some fucking delusional excuse for very very bad illegal behavior yeah just remember if you're going to go try to put some kind of a national plan into place well I think people now realize because it's I mean six years later where it's like no people will analyze your whole life they will absolutely boil that thing down and look into it further than you've ever wanted.

[69] And also because we live in a world now where you people can look into your life as far as they would like to through social media.

[70] Yeah.

[71] So crazy.

[72] Well, that's a, you know, hey, it's fun to close the loop every once in a while.

[73] It is.

[74] It is.

[75] I love those, I love those full circle moments that because we've been doing this for six fucking years of our lives get to happen here.

[76] You've heard it here.

[77] Here, not live, on this not live pod, six years later.

[78] After the fact that it came out, you got to hear it here in our hot take.

[79] And when we talked about it originally, I remember feeling so, I just wanted to know so bad at the time.

[80] And then, of course, which I don't know if we said or not, but of course, once you learn the real story, I bet you said this.

[81] Once you learn the real story, you're like, no, okay, well, now I just don't care.

[82] That's just dumb.

[83] This woman sucks.

[84] That's boring.

[85] Bye.

[86] Bye.

[87] Well, unfortunately, I think there's kids involved, right?

[88] So, like, that's going to be a real whopper to bring into therapy, right?

[89] Hopefully sooner than later for those kids.

[90] It's just pointless.

[91] It's like, oh, I hope you had fun for those first three days.

[92] And then you starved yourself and found chains to put around your chains.

[93] If you want attention, fucking do something good, really good, and get some people to like you.

[94] I don't know how to do it, obviously.

[95] So I can't give a good advice, but or start a podcast.

[96] Yeah, start a podcast for sure.

[97] But also, I think when you're pining for the old days and some exes, that's just a red flag to yourself.

[98] Right.

[99] Like, there's something else I need that none of that has really anything to do with that I'm just projecting.

[100] Yeah.

[101] I'm unhappy with this life.

[102] So I'm fantasizing about an old life.

[103] That isn't what I think it is.

[104] Yeah.

[105] Goodbye.

[106] Oh, good.

[107] by speaking of exes uh what are you watching what are you up to speaking of exes i don't know so a friend of the family stephanie beatrice oh my god yes who is one of the stars of incanto yeah which we watched over the holidays and is a wonderful musical is now the host of a new podcast have you heard of it no called twin flames oh yeah yeah oh my god You have to listen to it.

[108] I can't believe it's real.

[109] It is so upsettingly and so, like, talk about cringe.

[110] I haven't listened yet.

[111] There are people who make up this concept that you have a twin flame.

[112] There's one person in the world for you.

[113] That's it.

[114] And when you find that person, whoever it may be, is it a 22 -year -old man at your work?

[115] So be it.

[116] How lucky for you.

[117] It's so close there.

[118] We're in Scranton.

[119] He's right there.

[120] And he's young?

[121] Yeah, he's right there.

[122] You don't have to go anywhere.

[123] He's not in Egypt or something.

[124] But once you find that person and you know and you do some, I guess, the exercises or take some classes, then your whole thing is that you have to go get your twin flames.

[125] Wait, so who finds it out for you?

[126] Who picks it?

[127] Well, you, I think, arrive.

[128] I think this is, it started where basically is like, can you not get over the person that doesn't like you?

[129] It is maybe the banner That the unspoken, unwritten banner Over the conference room That was the online class Called Twin Flames You have to listen to it It's a couple So they've found their twin flame And they're there to teach you How to find and land yours Any of those let us show you how Fucking seminars or whatever the fuck Is like just run the other way They don't know how And they're not going to teach you Jack's shit But how to fucking get rid of your money real fast.

[130] Here's all I'll say is these people have no fear of restraining orders.

[131] They think that a restraining order is a good sign.

[132] Oh, no. Dude, this is, okay, full credit to Jacob Tierney, my Canadian friend that no one thinks is real, but is of Letter Kenny fame, who is the one who is like, you have to drop everything and listen to this right now because it's really, you can't believe it's real.

[133] And then you can't believe that people, because people basically join a cult in quarantine, like on Zoom.

[134] Yeah.

[135] So they start going to these classes.

[136] And then there's a bunch of other people that are like, I'm also in love with somebody who does not love me back.

[137] And we're all together going to believe in ourselves and do what's right for us.

[138] And it's like a thing called claiming them.

[139] So they literally go to the people like, and you have to say to the guy, I claim you.

[140] claim you yes and they're doing all this super what would ordinarily just be really embarrassing if you were like in junior high but these are fully grown adults who are walking up to people who like they've hung out with a couple times with you know like from near their grocery store wherever I mean you have to listen to the podcast I can't believe it it can't and then it gets crazy beyond like beyond and also Stephanie is a good narrator host.

[141] She's so good.

[142] She's so multi -talented.

[143] Yeah.

[144] I met her on a plane and she was the loveliest fucking person.

[145] Yeah.

[146] And she was at our, wasn't it our Vegas show?

[147] That's right.

[148] She was there with us.

[149] Yes.

[150] Yeah.

[151] That's such a red flag where it's, you get people at their most vulnerable.

[152] So you're in love with someone who doesn't love you back.

[153] So you're heartbroken.

[154] You're, uh, you're probably feeling a little low about yourself, a little worthless maybe.

[155] And like, that's how, that's the.

[156] perfect time to get for someone manipulative to get you to listen and follow their command yeah and not think it through well also it's people telling you exactly what you want to hear instead of like my mean older sister who'd be like no joke shut up about this guy where it doesn't matter sorry you're right or like he sounds like a dork or whatever like nobody that's going to help you out with the hard cold truth of like this like this is about something else like you like you but you also don't know him so clearly again red flag you have to listen to it because i'm just talking about the beginning oh my god it's called twin flames all right i'm in yeah are you watching severance on apple tv i have not i've heard a lot about it and people really like it but i haven't watched it it's good adam scott speaking of scranton no he wasn't on the office i don't know what i'm talking about you're thinking parks he was in ponny that's right Uh, it's like this, okay, it's totally sci -fi, but it's also like a dark, I wouldn't say comedy, but like a dark, I don't know, it's fucked up.

[157] It's really good.

[158] And he's great in it.

[159] And, uh, he kind of looks, it's, he looks distractingly like Tignitaro in it, which is my only, my only problem with it.

[160] I'll send you the screen grabs.

[161] They look very similar.

[162] They're very, they could absolutely be siblings.

[163] Yeah.

[164] Yeah.

[165] That's hilarious.

[166] But other than that, it's really good.

[167] been like it's got that sci -fi and like fucking christopher walk in and then uh what's his name from john tatoro john totooro john totoe was in it and like they have a fucking like scene together that's so good like just it's really good i'm not down with it yeah but i fucking vince and i really into it i um people were talking about it on twitter and i of course love adam scott friend of the karen friend of the karen his and also his aunt has been a teacher with my sister for like years and years.

[168] Yeah, so we're basically cousins.

[169] Not in the least.

[170] John Totoro's great.

[171] Fucking Patricia Arquette is like, it's just good.

[172] It's just creepy and good and sad.

[173] And it's a Ben Stiller joint?

[174] Yeah, weird, right?

[175] Yeah.

[176] I mean, no, he's a good director.

[177] I mean, yeah, I just wondered like why isn't he in it, but it's great.

[178] Well, and also it seems like a true departure from his usual like either comedy or you know what I mean like that's it's a different thing so yeah he's branching out he couldn't be in it because he had to concentrate yeah our we're so proud of him we don't we're so proud of him now he's grown up so much right before our eyes let's see do we just have two wrecks we can do that we don't have to like go forever we don't but I see something behind you that I just remembered we have to talk about oh we don't have to we don't have to do it this week well i can't have just an anonymous box in my house that i don't know what's inside of that you're not allowed to open that says for karen on it but it's also surgical masks so it's a little a little daunting look i just want to explain to you that in the vein of the thanksgiving flavored candy corns that we ate on air yeah a podcast first eating on the eating on air i found these and now or another time whenever we want to do it we need to try grant rocks late night taco truck jelly beans we got to do it now okay we got let me tell you what flavor is there i'm going to read them to you margarita churo horchata okay we're off to a good start yeah then we go to salsa guacamole and beef taco these people the people at brocks clearly had some youngsters take over i don't know if the grandchildren have come in whatever they're doing they're doing it right you know what i think take a handful and then i'll tell us what what i think we should eat the guacamole salsa and beef taco at once that sounds like torture yep but you know you mean like so it's like eating a taco yeah yeah okay hold on let me separate it it looks like brown brown there's a brown brown so the brown one that looks like a root beer jelly belly is is chiro okay so and then the yellow what's there's no yellow what's yellow wait a second are there other flavors as well no i'm so i'm going to roll the dice and eat a yellow all right i'll get a yellow too oh oh no beef taco oh no oh no beef taco jelly bean let's do a green guacamole i don't mind that one no avocado can be sweet i don't personally care for avocado myself but i'm gonna try what i think is salsa okay me too oh oh it is oh that's very accurate that is so salsa e but it's whatever gen z as you said brock's grandchildren are they're doing it good at the flavors i actually kind of like the salsa the salsa the salsa is more, I would say, along the lines of paste pecan tea sauce as opposed to like a fire roasted salsa.

[179] It's a real classic grocery store salsa.

[180] I get a little, yeah, and I get a little Bloody Mary in there too.

[181] You know what I mean?

[182] Like a sweet tomato.

[183] Okay, now we get to eat the good ones.

[184] Thank God.

[185] Although I have to say compared to Thanksgiving, those three were not that bad.

[186] Horchata, baby.

[187] Okay.

[188] Harchata, jelly bean is the best fucking thing I've ever had.

[189] Oh, margarita's helping me. It always does.

[190] And then churro.

[191] Oh, yeah.

[192] Everyone loves a churro.

[193] Horchata is a great palate cleanser to get into that churro.

[194] Brox, we just need a whole thing of horchata jelly beans, please.

[195] All right.

[196] Well, we had taco truck jelly beans on a true crime podcast.

[197] I got to say that I feel like Brox maybe took some notes from the public and made these jelly beanier.

[198] So even if you're having like a sales of taste, There's still a sweetness where you can enjoy it.

[199] It doesn't feel as much like a prank as like Thanksgiving dinner did.

[200] Right.

[201] Which I loved.

[202] I loved that.

[203] I loved that.

[204] The only prank one was a beef taco, which wasn't good.

[205] Shockingly.

[206] Yeah.

[207] I think we would all know that.

[208] I love that.

[209] A lot of people posted this on Twitter to me saying, did you know, did you know?

[210] All right.

[211] Well, that's what I was hoping was in that mask box.

[212] You were.

[213] I was hoping, but then I was like, keep your expectations, you know, in check in case you're just like, hey, here's some leftover masks.

[214] Don't look in it.

[215] No, I tell you.

[216] Don't look, but here's some old masks.

[217] They're used.

[218] Cookie licked each and every one of them.

[219] Yeah.

[220] I say Brock's welcome to the 2020s.

[221] Yeah.

[222] And they sent, by the way, I think we said that when we did the Brock.

[223] Thanksgiving candy corn this is not an ad in any way for them not only they sent us a huge box of candy around Halloween which was like awesome and they're friendly and nice and friendly don't worry they're friendly you can they don't buy it I still have harvest mixed in the back of my like do dad's drawer that it's in the kitchen where it'll be like soy packets and then like an old twix and like just random stuff yeah yes exactly and there's a bunch of like candy corn harvest mix that just the pumpkins like we got all of it so good they spoiled us they did thanks brox hey brox we love to be in partnership with you brox i just belch oh you know what episode that is is the one you covered the brox eris murder oh that's right yeah that's god if we could get it together to really align all of our sponsorships and integrations could you imagine how slick this fucking podcast would be.

[224] Yeah, the hair die murder brought to you by Madison Reed or whatever.

[225] Is there a hair die murder?

[226] There's got to be.

[227] Yeah, there's got to be a mid -century modern Scandinavian design murder that's cut out the middleman.

[228] Yeah.

[229] Literally, dun, dun, yeah.

[230] That's exactly when we will cancel this podcast, right?

[231] Right when we get good at stuff like that, let us go.

[232] Who cares?

[233] When we're professional at this, that takes all the joy.

[234] out of it.

[235] Yeah, no thanks.

[236] We're not here for a job, guys.

[237] We're not, and we're certainly not here to impress.

[238] We, I think we've made that abundantly clear.

[239] Should we do some exactly right highlights?

[240] Please, yes.

[241] Guys, over on the exactly right media network, which is our podcast network where all our friends and acquaintances have podcasts.

[242] For anyone we've ever, like slightly.

[243] Just you ever.

[244] But people who we like a lot.

[245] Yeah.

[246] On bananas this week, Kara Clank and Lisa Trager of That's Messed Up and SVU podcast will be the guests.

[247] So Curt and Scotty, Kara and Lisa, it's a party over on bananas.

[248] Crossover!

[249] They're doing it.

[250] That's our crossover song.

[251] Crossover.

[252] And iconic actress Samantha Mathis, who's in Pump Up the Volume, an American Psycho, is on That's Mess up and SvU podcast to discuss season five, episode nine, a classic.

[253] What if we just kept talking about that's messed up, just over and over?

[254] That's right.

[255] And Lisa Trager is on Kara Klink's other podcasts.

[256] I love both of those women.

[257] I did too.

[258] Oh, also on this podcast will kill you this week.

[259] Aaron and Aaron discuss the ins and outs.

[260] This is how it's phrased on this.

[261] I think this is Hannah Crichton being funny.

[262] The ins and outs of lightning strikes.

[263] What a cool topic.

[264] Like it fits in their little, their world, but it's so like unexpected and cool.

[265] I know.

[266] It's because it will kill you.

[267] It can kill you.

[268] It has killed.

[269] It's killed for sure.

[270] And why not talk it through?

[271] Because also I think storm season is coming around.

[272] So get aware.

[273] Everyone's scared of getting struck by lightning, right?

[274] Yeah.

[275] I think so.

[276] They will be after they hear this podcast will kill you.

[277] Okay.

[278] The MFF store is restocked with we're all indoor cats now merch.

[279] That was all previously out of stock.

[280] But it's now...

[281] In, in, in.

[282] Yes, the indoor cat art is by at Mighty Pigeon underscore art on Instagram.

[283] She's so talented.

[284] Karen, you know I'm all about vintage shopping.

[285] Absolutely.

[286] And when you say vintage, you mean when you physically drive to a store and actually purchase something with cash.

[287] Exactly.

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[290] That's right.

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[300] Sign up for a $1 per month trial period at Shopify .com slash murder.

[301] Important note, that promo code is all lowercase.

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[303] That's Shopify .com slash murder.

[304] Goodbye.

[305] All right.

[306] Well, we did it at the top and we're going to do it at the bottom now.

[307] Here we go.

[308] Oh, yes.

[309] Is this, are we a bookending podcast now?

[310] That's right.

[311] We're like a sinkhole.

[312] It starts up here.

[313] collapses beneath our weight.

[314] Then we'll see you down underneath the pipes down into the hidden spring underneath your street.

[315] We might take a car or two with us.

[316] You just never know.

[317] You don't know.

[318] This week I am going to start, and my story is the Cokeville Elementary School bombing.

[319] I don't know if you know anything about this.

[320] Happened in Cokeville, Wyoming in 1986.

[321] It's an unbelievable, horrifying, and amazing.

[322] story.

[323] And the first time I ever heard of it, it was because I saw a great episode of I survived with an adult man who tells the story because he was like eight years old and he survived this.

[324] And it is kind of mind -blowing.

[325] Wow.

[326] Okay, I don't know this one.

[327] The sources for this story are the website Wyoming History, which is yohistory .org.

[328] There was several articles there and then there's the Unsolved Mysteries Wiki.

[329] There's a New York Times article by Iver Peterson and there is an article by Ryan Morgan Neg from the Desiree News.

[330] Okay, it starts in Cokeville, Wyoming on Friday, May 16th, 1986.

[331] So Cokeville's a very small, quiet ranching town in Lincoln County, Wyoming.

[332] There's about 550 people that live in Cokeville.

[333] Wow.

[334] And And just over 100 children attend the town's elementary school.

[335] So essentially what I'm explaining to is this is a tiny town.

[336] Okay.

[337] So the school secretary is named Christine Cook.

[338] Everyone calls her Tina.

[339] And she's working in the office at Cokeville Elementary.

[340] And just after 12 noon on Friday, May 16th, the kids have just eaten lunch.

[341] And she sees a couple walking toward the school and coming inside the school.

[342] This is David and Doris Young.

[343] David's 43, Doris is 47.

[344] And she sees that they're pushing a shopping cart.

[345] She can't see what's inside.

[346] And she's just confused that this middle -aged couple is coming into the school like that.

[347] But of course, it's the mid -80s.

[348] So you could go to schools if you wanted to.

[349] You could kind of just do whatever you wanted.

[350] So they walk up to the counter and lean against it and just stare at her.

[351] And they don't say anything.

[352] So she gets up and says, may I help you?

[353] after a beat, David says, yes, Mrs. Cook, this is a revolution, and I'm taking your school hostage.

[354] Don't set off any alarms or make any calls or the children will all die.

[355] Oh, my God.

[356] So then he basically does a reveal of what's in the shopping cart, and it's a makeshift bomb.

[357] So essentially, this bomb is composed of two gas -filled containers stacked on top of each other, and then a bunch of rifles.

[358] So he basically shows that The detonator is rigged with a string tied to his wrist, and then it connects to a closed pin on a blasting cap that's affixed to the top of a gallon milk jug that's filled with gasoline.

[359] The bottom container holds two tuna cans filled with flour and aluminum powder that are there to create a large flash explosion, and each of those cans also has a blasting cap.

[360] there are chain links gunpowder and boxes of ammunition all positioned around the bomb inside the cart to act a shrapnel for when the bomb goes off and then david explains that if he connects the two metal pieces on either side of the clothes pin that's tied to his wrist all three blasting caps will go off and the whole bomb will explode so it's very thrown together yeah which i'm sure made it even scarier like because it probably looks crazy.

[361] Yeah.

[362] So David and Doris then pull a gun on Tina and tell her to unplug the office phone.

[363] They then lead her at gunpoint through the school's halls.

[364] And as they do, they round up any teachers or students that they find along the way and have them come with them.

[365] And they choose a first grade classroom and start directing the hostages inside.

[366] David positions himself and the bomb -filled shopping cart in the center of the room while Doris goes to the other classrooms and rounds up anyone else that's still in the classroom.

[367] So in that I survived, the boy that tells the story says that when Doris came into the classroom, he was just a kid, so it's an adult coming in and saying there's an assembly in the first grade classroom and everyone has to come.

[368] And the teacher's confused, but she goes out to see what's going on.

[369] And then she basically is like, come on children, we have to go.

[370] Yeah.

[371] So they don't really suspect anything until they get into the classroom.

[372] So this normally, the maximum capacity of the first grade classroom is 30.

[373] Now there's 154 children and teachers and school staff total crowded inside and everyone is staring at this strange man with the guns and the shopping cart full of explosives.

[374] Wow.

[375] So we'll talk a little bit about David and Doris Young.

[376] David Young starts life He's a very bright child, but he has a hard time communicating.

[377] He has a hard time making friends.

[378] He grows up in Grinnell, Iowa, as a lonely straight -A student, and he goes on to study criminal justice at what I believe is pronounced Chardron State College in Nebraska, but I'm probably wrong.

[379] And he earns a bachelor's degree in criminal justice.

[380] Somewhere along the way, he father's a daughter, but he doesn't stay in her life and he doesn't marry the mother.

[381] he does marry an unnamed woman who he has a second daughter with later on and they name their daughter princess and David has partial and then full custody of her princess so in the 70s David moves to Copeville, Wyoming and gets a job as the town marshal he's the only police officer in the town at the time which is around 1975 or 76 but he gets fired just six months after he's hired for misconduct and for incompetence.

[382] Those are the only explanations.

[383] That's it.

[384] It doesn't go into detail of what exactly, yeah, why.

[385] Oh, no. So it's during this time, he meets Doris Waters, who's a waitress and a singer who works at one of Copeville's local bars.

[386] Doris has a daughter of her own, named Bernie, and her daughter is from a previous marriage.

[387] So David and Doris, they get married pretty quickly after they meet each other.

[388] They move to a mobile home in Tucson, Arizona with their two daughters.

[389] So in Tucson, David falls deeper into isolation and potentially delusion.

[390] He takes a strong interest in philosophy.

[391] He starts writing a manifesto of his own that he calls zero equals infinity.

[392] Some of his influences include the novel Zen and the Art of Motorcycle Maintenance, which piques his interest in reincarnation, as well as much darker material like propaganda from white supremacist groups.

[393] So the hate groups give him the idea of a quote, unquote, brave new world, or he refers to it as BNW in his manifesto.

[394] He believes that there is an ideal world that can be achieved through ethnic cleansing.

[395] Boring.

[396] I mean.

[397] It's been done and fucking taken down before, dude.

[398] It's been done.

[399] It's been proven by the people who believe in it that it just simply ain't it.

[400] Can we move on, fucking raise this piece of shit?

[401] Can we evolve?

[402] will we ever evolve as a people that ain't it if you need if you need it to be everybody else yeah that's that's when you must turn to yourselves and say what am i doing if you can fucking pinpoint the problem as a certain people you got to fucking turn that pointing finger back up you're up your fucking into your eye stupid you already got the three you've got the three pointing back you're pointing out here three pointing three pointing back with a fourth if you can turn your thumb around it pointing out there you've never heard that one i'm trying it it looks silly let's move on let's move on hopefully that did it hopefully that cured yeah that delusion got a hope that people have okay so david who never really wanted to work hmm oh he relies on doris's house cleaning and waitressing to support the family he tries to come up with get rich quick schemes but none of those work out this is like so much like the hostage, the airplane hostage story that I told last me. Totally, totally.

[403] Same personality type.

[404] His idea, his first idea was to take a jetliner and hold that hostage for ransom, but he couldn't make that happen.

[405] In the 80s, he concocks a plan that he calls the biggie.

[406] He thinks this is his best plan yet.

[407] He refuses to discuss any of the details until the day of its execution, which is Friday, May 16th, 1986.

[408] And not even his two friends.

[409] Gerald Depp and Doyle Mendenhall, who he's roped into helping and investing in this plan.

[410] He doesn't even tell them what the plan actually is.

[411] They just believe in him.

[412] They think David is really smart.

[413] They're mesmerized by his rantings and his belief systems.

[414] And David has somehow convinced them that he has come up with a new energy that will revolutionize humanity's existence.

[415] I'm sure he had that all well thought out.

[416] and it was clear and concise.

[417] Yep.

[418] He's smoking with his red string.

[419] Yeah.

[420] So when David tells them he's got a master plan and that he needs their help, Gerald and Doyle are all in, both physically and financially.

[421] They want to help him do it and they want to help him pay for it.

[422] Great.

[423] Great.

[424] Guys, have you ever heard of air hockey?

[425] It's down at the bar.

[426] It's really loud.

[427] It's really fun.

[428] Invest in that.

[429] Yeah, something.

[430] Invest your Bitcoin in air hockey.

[431] Okay.

[432] So two days before the takeover, Wednesday, May 14th, 1986, David and Doris drive from Tucson to Cokeville in separate cars, bringing the now 19 -year -old princess, their daughter, along.

[433] They all meet up at a friend's house where they stay for the next two days, waiting for Gerald and Doyle to join them.

[434] On the day of the attack, Friday, May 16th, David Doris, Gerald, Doyle, and Princess all pile into David's van, and they drive to Cokeville Elementary School.

[435] Inside the van, David finally reveals the biggie, his full plan.

[436] They're going to enter the school armed with guns and David's makeshift bomb.

[437] They're going to hold all of the kids and teachers hostage, and they're going to demand $2 million for each hostage, which will eventually amount to $308 million.

[438] dollars.

[439] But once the demands are met, David doesn't plan to run off with the money.

[440] He wants to detonate the bomb anyway.

[441] And that way, the group and the hostages and the money will all be transported via reincarnation to the brave new world, an idealized white supremacist world where David will be God.

[442] So imagine someone's telling you this is the plan for the first time right outside the school and then he's like now look at the shopping guard so huh and then slowly back back step back step they're just like we should have known because of this van so gerald and doyle as delusional as they might be about how brilliant david is yeah they they know this is not a good idea so the guys say they refuse to participate they just immediately are like absolutely not David becomes enraged.

[443] He holds them captive inside the van at gunpoint.

[444] He wants to make sure they don't read them out.

[445] So he instructs Doris and Princess to handcuff Gerald and Doyle inside the van so they can't get away.

[446] So once they're restrained, David and Doris start unloading the guns and the bomb.

[447] But Princess starts sobbing.

[448] And she thought they were going to rob a bank, not take children hostage and not blow children up.

[449] So she stops helping.

[450] She basically just does.

[451] like not into it she doesn't want to do it David gets mad at his daughter but he doesn't restrain her instead he throws the keys to the van at her and says if you don't want to go with me that's fine you're no daughter of mine and she was probably like few so then David and Doris are off into the school so that's basically what was happening like five minutes before Tina at the the secretary at the front desk was like who are these two like that's what was going on outside so the good news is that Princess takes the keys, speeds off to City Hall with Gerald and Doyle and reports her father and stepmother for what they're about to do to the authorities.

[452] Good for her.

[453] She goes right there.

[454] Imagine how horrifying that is where it's just like...

[455] Children.

[456] Yeah.

[457] No. So back inside the school, all the hostages are gathered inside the classroom and around 1 .30 p .m., David addresses the group and he says, this is a revolution and you're being held hostage.

[458] But we don't want to hurt you, children.

[459] We will watch you.

[460] We don't want you to run.

[461] We don't want you to try and do anything.

[462] We want you to stay away from the cart, stay away from the guns.

[463] But if you do try to run, we will shoot you in the legs.

[464] We don't want to kill you, but we will shoot you in the legs so that you don't run.

[465] As far as you adults go, we'll shoot you and kill you.

[466] We don't care.

[467] We have no use for you.

[468] And we can kill you.

[469] Then he starts handing out copies of his manifesto, zero equals infinity, and tells everyone to read it.

[470] He also says that he sent a copy of it to the president of his alma mater, Chadron State College, to several media outlets and to President Ronald Reagan.

[471] Boo.

[472] David's hope is that he can get the word out to Reagan so that the federal government pays the ransom fee.

[473] But if not, he figures because Cokeville, so this was the thinking of why he went back to Cokeville, which I'm sure underneath it all was sour grapes from basically being like, the sheriff for six months and then people going, get the hell out of here.

[474] He says he figures because it's a predominantly Mormon community and that the Mormon church has a lot of money, the Mormon church will step in if President Reagan doesn't pay the ransom, the Mormon church will.

[475] So of course when this group of children hear this man say this, they start to panic, many start sobbing, many start saying they want to go home.

[476] People are already getting headaches because there's gas in these gallon milk containers, some start throwing up because of the fumes.

[477] So David gives permission for the teachers to crack the windows to air out the fumes.

[478] And Doris tries to calm the kids by telling them that they need to think of this as an adventure movie.

[479] But that doesn't help.

[480] Because apparently she was kind of scary looking.

[481] Oh, really?

[482] Yeah.

[483] Okay.

[484] Okay.

[485] So then the teachers step in and they know that they have to, first of all, they have to, keep these kids safe.

[486] They have to keep the kids calm and they have to keep the kids away from that fucking shopping cart in the middle of the room because if a kid walks by and bumps it accidentally, it could go off.

[487] So the teachers immediately, they make a big rectangle around the area that David's in and the center of the room and they call that the magic box and they say you can't go anywhere near the magic box and you certainly can't step inside the magic box.

[488] So we're all going to We're going to line up around the, you know, the outside of the classroom, and we're staying away from the magic box.

[489] They start doing a really good job of keeping the kids calm and distracting them because they're little kids, you know, reading them stories.

[490] One of the teachers tries to say, oh, wait, it's so -and -so's birthday.

[491] We didn't sing them happy birthday.

[492] But, of course, and that's the most nauseating idea of like, no one wants to sing happy birthday.

[493] No. No, no one's going to fall for that.

[494] meanwhile police and parents are gathering outside the school and they're trying to figure out how to diffuse this situation but they know there's they can't make any sudden moves there's nothing they can really do they just basically have to sit there and wait to see what the demands are like what the hell is going on so here's what's funny the one person that they missed in the school when they were rounding everybody up was the principal so the principal must have been in his office with the door closed or something so he basically comes out is looking around sees no one anywhere and finds his entire school being held hostage in the first grade classroom.

[495] So when he opens the door, David basically says, okay, you go back, you go to your office, call President Reagan and the FBI, and let them know this is a hostage situation.

[496] I want $2 million per hostage.

[497] And the principal's like, I will go do that right away.

[498] But of course, he runs and calls the local police, lets them know what's going on, what the demands are.

[499] He relays as much information about what's going on as he can.

[500] So meanwhile, David's growing angsty.

[501] They've been in this room for like an hour and a half.

[502] And suddenly the school bell rings at three o 'clock signaling the end of the day.

[503] So a bunch of the littler kids get excited because they think they get to leave.

[504] They think, oh, well, that's right?

[505] We all, we get to leave.

[506] This is, that's the official thing.

[507] So when David basically says they're not going anywhere, they all start crying again like that part starts all over again, of course.

[508] Secretary Tina Cook watches as David is pacing around.

[509] He's wondering aloud when his money's going to get there.

[510] And she also notices that Doris is trying to tend to the children, trying to calm them down.

[511] And that's when she realizes that, like, David might be the evil one because she's, she would later describe him as being, like, empty in the eyes.

[512] But that she, that she was even more repelled by Doris because she was actually, like, trying to be nice to the kids which she was just like that's just so creepy totally so one of the third grade teachers who is named pat leans over to tina and asks her she thinks that this is if this is real or if this is a hoax like it's so strange like what's going on and tina says to pat look into his eyes you'll know this thing is very real so then just before four o 'clock david decides he needs to go use the bathroom which is basically there's a door that's excessive inside this classroom.

[513] So he turns and he ties the bomb detonator to Doris's wrist to put her in charge while he's gone.

[514] As Tina later remembers it, from the moment David goes into the bathroom, this is a quote, it just seemed like there was all of a sudden just a little bit of calm peacefulness.

[515] The kids got quieter.

[516] They seemed to calm down.

[517] There was just a feeling in the room like things had changed.

[518] It was almost like the evil walked out of the room.

[519] before I'd been thinking I'm never going to get a chance to say goodbye to my husband and my children because I knew we'd never walk out of that room.

[520] He told us we wouldn't and I believed him and all of a sudden I almost had this feeling of hope.

[521] I don't know how to describe it beyond that.

[522] But soon that would disappear because just after 4 o 'clock while David's still in the bathroom, Tina hears Dora say, it's getting too noisy in here.

[523] It's just getting too noisy.

[524] and then she complains about having a headache she reaches her hand up to wipe the sweat from her forehead and when she does it's the hand with the wrist tied to the clothespin detonator the wooden piece is pulled from between the two metal conductors and the bomb goes off no i was yes oh my god i was thinking someone was going to stop her before oh my god it explodes inside this classroom filled with children and teachers, and the boy in the I Survived episode is just like all of a sudden the room was on fire.

[525] Oh, my God.

[526] So these teachers who had been kind of like, you know, obviously watching everything communicating, they know that these two people have been like on the edge this entire time.

[527] So they just start picking up kids and throwing them out the window because it's a first, it's a one -story classroom.

[528] So it's, you know, four feet out.

[529] They just start picking them up and throwing them.

[530] out over and over.

[531] Some kids actually run because they know there's several doors to the hallways to like there's exits.

[532] And then there's also just the little kids are just going out the window like handfuls of them.

[533] And there's teachers just like standing there.

[534] There was smoke everywhere.

[535] There was fire.

[536] But these teachers basically almost like unspoken had this thing going.

[537] And some grabbed a bunch of kids and like ran to an exit with them.

[538] It was total mayhem.

[539] I mean, a bomb went off inside the room.

[540] So David comes flying out of the bathroom at the sound of the explosion.

[541] He finds Doris alive but covered in black soot and severely burned.

[542] And he walks up, pulls out a gun and shoots her in the head.

[543] Holy shit.

[544] Yeah.

[545] So he then turns and sees the teacher throwing the kids out the windows and he realizes everything's out of control and his whole plan is lost.

[546] And he just shoots a teacher, a man named John Miller, who is the music teacher, he just shoots him in the back.

[547] And John Miller, it slows him down, it does not kill him, and he keeps helping the kids.

[548] Oh, my God.

[549] And then when David sees that he can't stop it and that everyone's escaping and that this whole thing is over, he brings the gun to his own head and shoots himself.

[550] So now with both perpetrators dead, the hostages can safely flee the burning building.

[551] So there's first responders on site already waiting to treat these injuries.

[552] There's triages set up in the surrounding areas.

[553] There's hospitals across Wyoming, Utah, and Idaho waiting to take patients from the blast.

[554] But here's what you won't believe.

[555] Oh, no, no, no, no what?

[556] All 79 hostages, which were mostly children, are treated for severe burns and smoke inhalation.

[557] But every single one of them, including John Miller, who was shot in the back, survived.

[558] Oh, my God.

[559] Every single one of them survived.

[560] This is a stressful story.

[561] It's a stressful miracle.

[562] Oh, my God.

[563] So it's like impossible to imagine and think, like that there wouldn't be, but it was because it was so, it was a lot of reasons.

[564] First of all, obviously the magic box truly was magic.

[565] And it held in all of that horror and that evil.

[566] But also, of course, David's shoddy handiwork building that bomb.

[567] So basically the milk jug that had the gasoline in it had a leak.

[568] So there was gas dripping down into those tuna cans, which instead of that powder going off when the bomb went off, it was just a muddy paste at that point.

[569] So it was flammable, but it didn't make the ammunition or any of that other stuff explode like it was supposed to.

[570] also the wires leading to the tuna cans blasting caps had been cut they don't know who cut those wires they don't know how that happened it remains a mystery to this day wow oh i mean it had to be one of them right or one of the dissenters that didn't want to go in with them i mean i like to think it was princess just because i love her name so much and i love i love the turn she made but i think it would be, I don't know if there was time for them to be able to dismantle that bomb or even make that move.

[571] Who knows?

[572] So along with the faulty bomb structure, the teachers who opened the windows for relief from the gas fumes unwittingly helped diminish the bomb's effect because they created enough ventilation to reduce the power of that blast.

[573] In the days after the bombing, news coverage recounted the events with the appropriate horror, of course, but when when newscasters spoke to the survivors, they quickly turned the narrative on its head and told their stories as stories of hope, faith, and perseverance.

[574] Because so many residents of Copeville were religious people.

[575] Many survivors preferred to look at things through the lens of their faith, thanking God for helping them live through what should have been a death sentence.

[576] Some remember seeing angels who helped guide them out of the burning classroom.

[577] Lots of kids.

[578] Okay, so...

[579] Really?

[580] Uh -huh.

[581] There's a student survivor who is named Jenny.

[582] She was seven years old at the time of the bombing.

[583] And she later say, quote, many kids testified of their ancestors running with them, leading them out of the school or helping them hide in a closet.

[584] Oh, my God.

[585] And quote.

[586] She says, after the bomb went off, I thought one of the teachers at the school was helping me. I didn't recognize her, but she led me out by the hand and told me not to go back.

[587] And it wasn't until a few years later.

[588] when Jenny was in the fifth grade, that she recognized this, quote, unquote, teacher from a family photo album.

[589] It was her aunt who had died several years before the bombing.

[590] Oh, my God, I'm going to cry.

[591] Yeah.

[592] Another boy recalls seeing a woman in white in the classroom who, quote, said the bomb was going to go off.

[593] If I stood by the window, everything would be okay.

[594] Oh, shit.

[595] Oh.

[596] And then he would later identify this woman to be his late.

[597] grandmother.

[598] Damn.

[599] School Secretary Tina Cook, she later says, quote, I know the children say they saw angels.

[600] Do I believe it?

[601] Yes, I do.

[602] I didn't see any angels, but I felt the peace and the calm, and I felt the difference in the room after David left.

[603] I felt the change, but it was nothing I could physically see or touch.

[604] There was just absolutely a difference.

[605] So with the help of local doctors, parents, and their faith, Cokeville rebuilds the damages to its elementary school, and the kids and the teachers return to normal.

[606] Kids who suffered burns and other injuries show up to school in their bandages and many of them seek the help of therapists to cope with the trauma.

[607] But by banding together as a community, Cokeville Elementary School's story lives on as one of hope instead of one of tragedy.

[608] The story of the hostage takeover and the bombing is documented in a book entitled The Cokeville Miracle When Angels Intervene, written by Hart and Judeine Wixom.

[609] There's also an unsolved mystery and unexplained mysteries.

[610] Oh.

[611] And, of course, a really good episode of I survived with adults who were children in that classroom in 1986.

[612] And that is the miraculous story of the Cokeville school bombing.

[613] Holy shit.

[614] How have I never fucking heard of that?

[615] Right.

[616] Right?

[617] That is wild.

[618] It's beyond.

[619] It's so awful and so you absolutely have to look up that episode of I survived.

[620] Okay.

[621] Because the people.

[622] and there's employees, there's teachers and people that talk about it.

[623] And it's just the most unbelievable, for little kids, the most unbelievable firsthand experience, like what they went through and how they got through it.

[624] And it's just like, it's mind -blowing.

[625] Wow.

[626] That is wild.

[627] Totally bonkers.

[628] Wow.

[629] Good job.

[630] Thank you.

[631] Yeah.

[632] All right.

[633] So I'm not going to give you too much information about this story.

[634] But today I'm going to talk about the abduction of.

[635] Carrie Swenson, a world -class biathlete.

[636] My information from today's episode, a heavily used Sports Illustrated article by Robert F. Jones, two cinemaholic articles written by Critty Marotra, a Daily Hit, a Los Angeles Times article by Anna Depenga, a Bozeman Daily Chronicle article by Amanda Ricker, a KBZT staff article, and an AP article written by Marsha Dunn.

[637] So on July 15th, 1984, 23 -year -old Carrie Swenson is working a summer job as a waitress at the Lone Mountain Guest Ranch in Big Sky, which is in Southwest Montana.

[638] So obviously, gorgeous.

[639] It's the gateway to Yellowstone, lots of nature.

[640] Big Sky is this beautiful outdoorsy place.

[641] Tourists come to have these outdoorsy adventures.

[642] It experiences like skiing, whitewater rafting, hiking.

[643] that kind of thing that people who are not like me go horse camp I'm sure there's horse camp ranches ranches a horse camp all the things so getting off work that day after lunch and being a season by athlete carry uses her afternoon to go on a six mile run on jack creek road I know like you and I do yeah yeah you know sometimes after I work I just like to go for nice for a run six miles like both ways or like three and three and three and three but it's like through the wilderness so I'm sure there's a fucking incline there's hill you know there's hills an element of incline gee it's not flat no so it's oh it's a logging road so Carrie's boss Bob Shapp had seen a grizzly bear on that road the day before but instead of deterring her Carrie who I right off the bat she's a total bad ass.

[644] She makes this adventurous decision to head in that direction because she's like, oh, I want to see a grizzly bear in person.

[645] Carrie, why in person?

[646] You can see it on any National Geographic.

[647] They have their own channel now.

[648] It's a moving magazine.

[649] You can, David Attenborough, I'm sure, has narrated one million documentaries.

[650] You don't need to see them in person.

[651] She's like, I run during my lunch break uphill.

[652] And, And I'm a bi -athlete, and I want to meet a grizzly bear and shake hands.

[653] And I want to live the revenant.

[654] And that's my prerogative.

[655] I'm 23.

[656] Guess what?

[657] I get to lift.

[658] That's her girl bossing around Montana.

[659] That's the definition of a Montana girl boss.

[660] It's like, I will go and let the grizzly bear know that I'm here.

[661] Yeah.

[662] High five of grizzly bear, check it off my bucket list.

[663] Check.

[664] Great.

[665] All right, let me tell you a little bit about our protagonist, Carrie Swenson.

[666] Born in 1961 in Pennsylvania, when she's nine years old, the Swenson family moves to Montana because her father, Bob, got a job at the Michigan State University in the physics department.

[667] Carrie's mom, Jan, works as a registered nurse and volunteer for the Nordic Ski Patrol, which takes part in, quote, high country rescue missions.

[668] So her whole family's like smart and adventurous and badass.

[669] They just love to get out there.

[670] Yeah.

[671] They're not the TV character.

[672] people no I'm from yeah neither couch stock is what you and I are from we're couch people you're couch people couch stock almost made me spit Diet Coke on my own microphone couch stuff we're of great couch we're of uh we're of couch stock after they moved to montana takes up Nordic skiing and she's really good at it she continues honing her skills throughout adolescence and right out of high school she starts training for biathlon which according to the Daily Beast article is quote kind of a winter race that combines cross country skiing and shooting targets with a small bore rifle so skiing and shooting sure you know get out there yep that's why she was fine with the grizzly bear she's like i'm bringing a rifle with me i don't think so man i think she just wanted to fucking high -five a grizzly because i'm sure it's like There's laws around it in that area of shooting bears, right?

[673] Whatever.

[674] Yeah, you just can't go pick them off because it's ruining your job.

[675] Right.

[676] Because it's like, oh, it's my lunch break.

[677] Okay.

[678] When Carrie's 19 -year -old, she's recruited for the first ever U .S. women's biathlon program.

[679] And she joins a, it's a three -person relay team.

[680] And four years later in 1984, Carrie and her teammates compete in the first ever women's biathlon world championship held in France.

[681] Carrie's team wins the bronze, and Carrie herself placed as fifth in the individual race, breaking multiple records.

[682] Nice.

[683] According to Sports Illustrated, quote, it was not just the best finish for an American that year, but the best finished ever for a U .S. biathlete of either sex and 26 years of international biathlon competition.

[684] Nice.

[685] She broke the glass biathlon ceiling.

[686] That's right.

[687] So clearly, as I said, she's a total badass.

[688] Following these milestones, Carrie, quote, emerged suddenly and dramatically as America's best female biathlet with promise of becoming a superstar in the grueling sport, unquote.

[689] With our future promising, but that biathlon season over in 1984 in July, Carrie takes a summer job as a waitress.

[690] And so we're back to her lunch break from said job.

[691] Yeah.

[692] right so she goes uh gets off work that day decides going to run chase grizzly bear but and around 3 p .m. Carrie is still running when she notices something off in the distance on the trail she's on and there's what she sees is two sleeping bags spread out on the trail which is odd as she approaches them uh suddenly two men walk out onto the trail in front of her there are these unshaven like grizzly dudes wearing grimy quote wearing quote grimy smooth smoke -reaking clothes, like from bonfires and shit.

[693] And they're carrying rifles.

[694] The older of the men tells Carrie that they just want to talk to her, explaining that they don't get many women up in the mountains.

[695] And Carrie is afraid of what could happen if she tells them to fuck off or whatever and runs the opposite direction.

[696] But she senses there's something not quite right about these men and she agrees to talk to them.

[697] But her instincts are right as after the three talk for a bit, the men, the men, men tell her that they're taking her captive as the younger man needs a mountain wife.

[698] A struggle ensues, and the older man hits Carrie on the left side of her jaw very hard, grabs her by both wrists and throws her to the ground.

[699] Then the men overpower her and tie her up, all while threatening her with her guns and knives.

[700] All right, so who are these unshaven, grimy mountain men?

[701] Let me tell you.

[702] The older one is 53 -year -old Don Nichols, and the younger one is his 18 -year -old son, Dan.

[703] Dan will later tell police that his father didn't, quote, believe in the system, society, civilization.

[704] So when Dan was seven, his dad took him to the mountains near Ennis, and for around two months, they lived there while Dawn taught his son how to live off the land.

[705] Dan said, quote, dad taught me how to cope, how to hunt, stay alive.

[706] the winter make things pleasant living in the mountains is a natural way of life in society you go to work get money and buy food in the mountains you go get your food you don't go through the machine of society end quote uh -huh mountain men it's just so self -serving yeah it's just so self -serving the men in these stories are real dicks it's not great examples Since then, the Nichols had spent a good part of the previous 12 summers living off the land of the Spanish Peaks wilderness, an area set off from the rest of the Madison Range area.

[707] Around five years before encountering Carrie, Dawn, the dad had purchased a chain and started looking for the perfect, quote, mountain wife.

[708] For years, he dreamed of starting his own tribe in the mountains, but he knew that most women likely wouldn't want to go along.

[709] with his dream, at least not willingly.

[710] Investigators later theorized that prior to the kidnapping, Dan had grown bored of the mountain lifestyle, the son.

[711] He's like 18 at this point and wanted to leave it behind, but his dad didn't want a son to leave.

[712] So in hopes of getting his kid to stay, he decided to find that mountain wife for his son.

[713] So Don and Dan came up with a plan for kidnapping a woman.

[714] Okay, so after they take Carrie hostage, for the next 18 or so hours, the men lead Carrie through the woods deeper into the mountains.

[715] Carrie's tethered by a rope to Dan while Don walks behind them keeping his rifle aimed at her back.

[716] According to Los Angeles time, Carrie, quote, risks her captors rage by dropping items such as her wristwatch and headband to leave a trail for search parties.

[717] smart uh -huh this chick's fucking smart and she deliberately presses the imprint of her running shoe into the soft dirt of gopher mounds and antills to leave the trail wow that's really smart I know at one point the men stopped for the night and Carrie is chained of a tree and put inside a sleeping bag and the men discussed taking her even further into the Spanish peaks which the area they're very familiar with And Carrie's right, of course, to assume that search parties will be looking for her.

[718] So that same evening, Carrie is supposed to go back to work after her break, I think for the dinner shift.

[719] She doesn't show up.

[720] And so her boss, Shapp, the grizzly bear dude, he's worried that she was maybe attacked by that grizzly bear, right?

[721] So he, which is like so convenient because would he have worried as much had he not talked about that grizzly?

[722] No, it's kind of perfect that they even had that discussion.

[723] Yeah.

[724] He later tells Sports Illustrated, quote, I knew Carrie couldn't get lost in that country, not with her knowledge.

[725] And even if she'd fallen and broken her leg, she was tough enough to crawl out.

[726] I mean, this was a woman who could take care of herself.

[727] So he knew something was off.

[728] He also knew that she was wearing shorts, a T -shirt, and a windbreaker, which meant she was at risk for hypothermia due to the high elevation.

[729] So he contacts Carrie's parents and the county sheriff office, and then they all form a search party.

[730] Carrie's dad Bob borrows a friend's plane to search for his daughter from the air and meanwhile her mom Jan supervises a search party on the ground Carrie's brother Paul goes out with the first group and they search until just after dark they have no idea that just over the ridge line they're searching is Carrie and actually Carrie they're kind of near her at that point and she can hear them searching for her which is so horrifying but she doesn't call out for help because the Nichols had repeatedly threatened to shoot her if she called out to any searchers.

[731] And if anyone tried to save her, they said they'd shoot them too.

[732] So with no sign of carry by the search party, they spend the night hours coming up with a strategy to find her the next morning.

[733] They pour over topographical maps and create sectors for each party to focus.

[734] In the morning, the search party is around 40 people.

[735] They head out and included our two friends of Carries, a man named Alan Goldstein, who's 36 and a man named Jim Schwalb who's 30 the two of them head out together to a ridge near where shop had seen the bear like following in that direction and they separate and they begin going downhill in separate areas through heavy timber so just before 8 a .m. Schwab comes across the Nichols camp oh uh -huh Carrie who's still chained to a tree sees him and yells watch out they've got guns Don tells Dan, to shut her up.

[736] And so Dan turns and points his gun at carry, and the trigger goes off.

[737] He pulls the trigger at close range.

[738] The bullet enters at a downward angle two inches below the right side of her collarbone, strikes her lung, and then exits her back 10 inches lower.

[739] Schwab approaches the campsite, and he later says that Dan looks like he wants to cry.

[740] He keeps repeating, I didn't mean to shoot her over and over again.

[741] Don tells his son to shut up and calm down and then points a rifle at Schwab.

[742] That's when Schwab sees his companion, Alan Goldstein.

[743] He's still coming down the ridge and he's heading towards the camp.

[744] And Schwab later recalls what happens when he said, quote, I yelled Al call for help, go get some help.

[745] Al had this walkie -talkie with him and he said something over it.

[746] Then he pulled off his daypack and dove into it with his hands.

[747] He came out with something.

[748] I didn't even know he had brought along a gun.

[749] Oh, so Goldstein runs behind a tree around 20 feet away, and at this point, Schwab is trying to treat Carrie's wounds.

[750] He had reached her.

[751] From behind the tree, Goldstein tells the Nichols to drop their weapons.

[752] Don raises his rifle and is able to shoot Goldstein in the face.

[753] Oh.

[754] I know.

[755] Schwab runs over to his friend and finds him already dead.

[756] So he decides to run for help at this point, seeing the situation obviously.

[757] is intensified.

[758] He runs a mile and a half.

[759] His muscles are aching.

[760] He finally reaches a trail.

[761] And thankfully, the sheriff and his search party are right in that spot.

[762] So for the next four hours, the search party tries to find the Nichols camp again.

[763] But it's a slow process.

[764] And they know that the Nichols are armed and clearly fine with shooting.

[765] Yeah.

[766] So they walk slowly with point men in the front, rifles ready to fire.

[767] They don't find the camp.

[768] And so then they take Schwab, in a helicopter.

[769] So, and I'm sure he's traumatized at this point, seeing two of his friends shot, and they spot Goldstein's red daypack and authorities are able to pinpoint the area and swoop in.

[770] Meanwhile, back before this, when Chuel had taken off, the Nichols had realized that the jig is up and they'd been located.

[771] They need to get the fuck out of there.

[772] So they start packing their belongings.

[773] Carrie is still alive, and she realizes what's happening, and she asks the Nichols, who are clearly going to leave her behind to die if they could leave her a sleeping bag so she doesn't freeze to death.

[774] But instead they just dump her out of the sleeping bag she was in, untie her, and fucking take off.

[775] Wow.

[776] So they leave her alive, but Carrie is barely able to move due to her injuries and she knows it could be a long time before anyone finds her.

[777] And she knows she'll either die from blood loss or hypothermia if she doesn't do something quickly.

[778] so she starts going into shock and she then removes a sleeping bag from the backpack that Schwab had left behind, crawls into it to stay warm, and then attempts to eat a chocolate bar from the pack of his backpack for energy, but she's too nauseous.

[779] So she just drinks from a canteen of lemonade to stay hydrated.

[780] But she's losing too much blood and she knows that if she panics, her heart will race faster leading to more blood loss.

[781] So she knows she has to put her biathlon training to work.

[782] According to Sports Illustrated, quote, the most crucial point in a biathlon race is when the athlete makes the transition from cross -country skiing to shooting on the rifle range.

[783] So basically, the skiing portion of the race cross -country makes your heart and lungs go super fast.

[784] It's really, really strenuous.

[785] And then you have to jump right from there into shooting a rifle, you know, I'm sure, very accurately.

[786] And so that requires a steady heart and the control of your breathing.

[787] So that's part of it is that it's these two extremes that by athletes train to control their pulse and breathing rates almost at will.

[788] Oh, wow.

[789] I know.

[790] Carrie maintains this, quote, yoga -like discipline for four hours as the search parties try to find her.

[791] When rescuers reach her, she's still conscious, calm, and in control, but her vision is blurring quickly.

[792] a helicopter transports her to a hospital 40 miles away where she undergoes surgery and spends days in the ICU eight days later she's released from the hospital oh you're set me up that's why I didn't want to give you that much information because I was just like there's just no way she's done it perfectly like she's handled this so perfectly she wouldn't die at this point that's why I didn't want to tell you it was a survivor story I wanted to be like mine's a survivor story too But like, Georgia, shut up.

[793] No, but you're right.

[794] That's like getting shot in a lung.

[795] And it went through her.

[796] I feel like those are always fatal.

[797] I mean, I don't.

[798] Who knows?

[799] But the idea, like, that you would have to be doing, it's not just like a flesh wound.

[800] Right.

[801] I mean, oh, God.

[802] And impairs your breathing and you're panicking.

[803] And it's like, she fucking, she was the Zen master.

[804] Yeah, she was.

[805] So meanwhile, multiple long.

[806] enforcement agencies launch a manhunt to find these two men responsible for Carrie's abduction and attempted murder and the cold -blooded murder of Alan Goldstein.

[807] He was just 36 years old.

[808] After figuring out the assailant's names, authorities work to learn everything they can about them.

[809] And knowing that they frequent the Spanish peaks, they search the area every day later, after not finding them for a while, the search has moved to weekends only.

[810] It seems like they, it's such a huge.

[811] huge area that it's like impossible to find just two people who know what they're doing in the wilderness you know right yeah but finally on december 13th 1984 five months after carrie's kidnapping the nickels are caught basically this man named roland more he is outriding on his property and he sees smoke rising off in the distance sees his binoculars sees that it's two men he obviously knows what's going on and knows about the manhunt he calls his brother who happens to be the Madison County Sheriff, Johnny France, and knows the ranch like the back of his hand.

[812] So he tracks the nickels for two hours and finally locates them around 90 miles from where Carrie was kidnapped.

[813] God.

[814] I know.

[815] They really made, like put some distance between them, 90 miles.

[816] 90 miles.

[817] Finally, how great would it have been, though, if they gotten killed by the grizzly bear, though?

[818] How satisfying.

[819] That came in and was like, I will seek revenge.

[820] Nope.

[821] But no, instead, Sheriff France is our grizzly bear.

[822] And there's a little back and forth between the men, but he's able to arrest them without incident.

[823] They're charged with murder, kidnapping, and assault.

[824] So Don and Dan Nichols are tried separately.

[825] In May, 1985, Dan, the son.

[826] He's considered to be more of an accomplice and is convicted of kidnapping and misdemeanor assault.

[827] But the jury feels like he had been brainwashed by his father.

[828] so he's not found guilty of murder.

[829] Yeah.

[830] He also claims that shooting carry was an accident, that the gun had unexpectedly gone off.

[831] But according to Carrie, he had looked directly at in her eyes before shooting her.

[832] Well, if anybody knows whether or not that was an accident, it would be the person who got shot.

[833] Definitely.

[834] And also, he's an experienced gun person.

[835] Yeah.

[836] So you don't, I feel like accidentally firing isn't something that happens.

[837] You don't put your finger on a trigger if you don't plan on shooting someone.

[838] But also it's an interesting thing to think about where you're being raised by this, by basically a doomsday prepper who has moved you into the woods slowly but surely over the years through your adolescence.

[839] Yeah.

[840] The one person in your life that's an adult that you're supposed to follow is essentially not all right in any way and is crafting this world around you that you have to.

[841] believe in because he's all you have so it could have been that thing where like he thought yeah i get my wife and this is the right way yeah that's how those things always work until it could have not been that it was an accident that it went off but that once he actually did it he went what in the fuck am i doing and what is this right right i mean i don't know yeah he definitely had had to have some brainwashing going on and it was not in his right mind yeah so he's sentenced to just 10 years in prison.

[842] Then in September 1985, Dawn is convicted of kidnapping, aggravated felony assault, and deliberate homicide, and he's sentenced to 85 years.

[843] Yeah.

[844] Carrie remains a badass and thrives.

[845] According to Sports Illustrated, the bullet left nerve damage and some scar tissue, quote, raising concerns about her ability to resume her athletic career, at least on the level she'd reached before the shooting, But within three months of the attack, she's able to start training for the biathlon again, however, on a limited basis.

[846] Three days after the arrest of her attackers, Carrie competes at the U .S. Biathlon Association's pre -trial race in Big Sky, Montana.

[847] What?

[848] I know.

[849] She later recalls, quote, we didn't do that well, but it was great to be back.

[850] Yeah.

[851] Oh, my God.

[852] I know.

[853] It's a miracle that she's back.

[854] That's amazing.

[855] Three days after her, she's.

[856] attackers were caught, which means five months after this ordeal.

[857] I know.

[858] We all need to be like, Carrie.

[859] What would Carrie do?

[860] Get out of bed earlier and run six miles.

[861] Oh, yeah.

[862] A few weeks after that happens, she competes for the U .S. national biathlon team and places third.

[863] Whoa.

[864] Oh, my God.

[865] I'm a shot in the lung.

[866] She was shot in the lung.

[867] Now she's, now she's really like, um, she's, She's got, I mean, you know, obviously before her focus is one thing, but now it's like that idea she's coming up from under.

[868] She is the, you know, she's been, she's been quote unquote sideline and quote unquote traumatized and whatever.

[869] But then her whole thing is like, nope, I'm going to go do the thing that I'm meant to do.

[870] You can't stop me. It is hard for her.

[871] She later describes the pain she faces, quote, when I breathe deeply, there's like a band of pain.

[872] about four inches wide around my thorax.

[873] And she can't ski for more than 45 minutes, which is a lot shorter than she used to be able to do it for two hours nonstop.

[874] Nothing helps her pain, but she keeps training anyway.

[875] And for years to come, Carrie undergoes biofeedback and physical therapy to help control the pain caused by the nerve damage to her back and chest.

[876] She has shrapnel in her chest, and she wears a metal band around her front teeth to correct a jaw problem she suffered when Dawn first hit her.

[877] God.

[878] I know.

[879] And she often sees a psychologist to help with her PTSD as the only way she can handle the trauma she endured is by pretending it didn't happen.

[880] Which we all know is a great way to have it come back and manifest in other ways.

[881] Yeah, you can do that.

[882] You can only do that for so long.

[883] Yeah.

[884] And then you go deal with it.

[885] It totally works for a while.

[886] And sometimes that's what you need.

[887] But But it's not the, it's not a, it's not a solution.

[888] Well, and for someone like her that clearly has no problem facing humongous and threatening challenges.

[889] You know, that's like, yeah, therapy.

[890] Yeah.

[891] You can, you can fucking, you can stare down that mountain and then.

[892] Yeah.

[893] Hell yeah.

[894] Climb it and meet a grizzly bear on it.

[895] Yeah.

[896] You can do all those things.

[897] This is Montana.

[898] You can do it all.

[899] Da -da -da -da -da -da -da -da -da -da -da -da -da -da -da kidnapping.

[900] In 1986, two years after her kidnapping, Carrie competes at the World Biathlon Championships in Duck in Norway.

[901] She places fourth.

[902] I know.

[903] And then she announces her retirement.

[904] She has multiple reasons for retiring.

[905] One being that her injuries from the kidnapping, of course, still cause her a lot of pain.

[906] But the other is that she's enrolled in Colorado State University Veterinary School.

[907] And she's like, Moving on with my life.

[908] Carrie!

[909] She's like, I don't know if I'm going to be a world -class athlete anymore.

[910] I think I'm just going to be a world -class veterinarian.

[911] I did it.

[912] I'm moving on.

[913] Now I'm going to tackle true grizzly bears.

[914] That's right.

[915] Throughout the trial, the Nichols, and after she is trying to get back to living her badass life, but she has to deal with the media who, according to the Daily Beast article, has romanticized what they call.

[916] the quote nickels boys as quote survivalists so suddenly these fucking doomsday dudes are being put on this like like heroic pedestal for example esquire paints them as quote some rowdy mountain men trying to snag a wife oh uh -huh and one media outlet victim blames carrie by describing her as being quote a proper bell of bozeman which is the location the perfect flower of the new west as if the nickels were trying to take her on a fun fucking romp through the wilderness but she was too prim and proper to appreciate it basically.

[917] Wow.

[918] So like they're totally romanticizing these kidnappers and murderers.

[919] These grimy weirdos that were like couldn't handle regular life.

[920] Right.

[921] And so they were like, we have to be in the woods and you have to be here with us.

[922] Where it's like, hey look, if you have to be in the woods and you need to issue society, God bless that's your American right.

[923] Yeah.

[924] But you don't get to take other people with you and you're not uh you're not somehow cool because of it yeah you shit in the hole and then cover it up and like you're not special and many locals of the area agree with the media and they feel like the nickels are some of the last men out there truly living free away from the controlling government some locals even lined up at the trials i know to get autographs from the quote mountain men well you know what that's that's just like women falling in love with Richard Ramirez there are people that take uh they take their what is what's the phrase everybody loves to use these days parasocial their parasocial relationships that they're projecting onto these people like yeah that's a real man it's like it's just not yeah it's just not yeah and it's just I mean yeah to have to read about for Carrie to have to read about this and the media is like trying to track her down she the family family and her are like absolutely not interested well and also sorry but if the media actually wanted to romanticize or blow up anybody in that story aside from carry how about the two dudes that ran into that camp yeah and like and one lost his life for the bravery and the strength of going in and trying to help and be there like that's it's they're right there yeah like they're right there in the story that you could you could focus on and instead it's the actual murderers.

[925] It's the insane.

[926] It's them and her who fought for her fucking life.

[927] Like they deserve all the accolades.

[928] In 1989, Carrie's mother publishes a book called Victims, the Carrie Swenson story.

[929] According to Los Angeles Times, quote, the book, which was dedicated to Alan Goldstein, was written because Carrie and her family are haunted by more than the memory of her ordeal.

[930] They feel that Carrie was the victim, not only of a crime, but of a bizarre myth -making process that turn the criminals into folk heroes sorry what and that happened in what year 1984 is when the kidnapping happened and then the media like the resulting media was basically mid -80s I mean that makes perfect sense that is like yes that's like the most unanalyzed like dudes in charge era like before anyone even thought about it I bet you there wasn't one woman in that newsroom to go, excuse me, what are you doing?

[931] You're calling her a damsel in distress or whatever.

[932] It's like, no, no, not at all.

[933] In 1991, Dan Nichols, the son, is paroled after serving only six years of his sentence.

[934] And then in 2017, Dawn, now 86 years old, and having been up for parole four times, is released, having served less than half of his sentence.

[935] Carrie later writes an op -ed for the Montana pioneer that reads in part, quote, we the victims have a life sentence, not Don Nichols.

[936] They invoked a death sentence on Alan Goldstein.

[937] That is the ultimate sentence.

[938] The life sentence for me is that every day of my life, I have to deal with the death of a friend, the memories and horrors of being kidnapped, being chained up like an animal, being shot in the chest and then left to die.

[939] That day, I lost my freedom and my athletic, career.

[940] They took away my rights to live freely without fear.

[941] Victims of violent crimes are victimized over and over again by the justice system and the media.

[942] Despite her struggles, traumas, and injuries, Carrie followed her dream of becoming a veterinarian.

[943] Today, she continues to work in the field, focusing on small animal medicine.

[944] In her spare time, she spends time in the outdoors with her family, friends, dogs, and horses.

[945] And in fact, Karen, in 1986, Alan Goldstein and Jim Schwald were honored by the Carnegie Hero Fund, which recognizes persons who perform extraordinary acts of heroism in civilian life.

[946] Wow.

[947] Yeah.

[948] So that's good.

[949] Outdoors, dogs and horses.

[950] She's still involved in biathlon by coaching and mentoring young athletes.

[951] And in 2015, Carrie and her 1984 biathlon teammates were inducted into the U .S. Biathlon Hall of Fame.

[952] Whoa.

[953] And that is the story of the kidnapping of the badass, Carrie Swenson.

[954] Wow.

[955] Had you ever heard that?

[956] I didn't hear that until I was doing research on more stories.

[957] It sounded familiar, but there are several I survived episodes with people and a lot of times.

[958] in the Appalachian Mountains with people coming upon a grimy, weird guy that's clearly been out there for way too long and having horrible experiences so I couldn't figure out.

[959] I was like, do I know this or not?

[960] And I don't think I did.

[961] I don't know if there was and I survived.

[962] I don't want to know because then I'm like, oh, fuck, I should have watched it.

[963] No, no, no. I think it just reminded me of other ones I've seen where like a woman but is taken by a single guy.

[964] The fact that it was a father's son, I feel like I would have remembered.

[965] Because that's just so twisted and weird and like such a bummer.

[966] Yeah.

[967] Yeah.

[968] I mean, Jesus.

[969] She, wow.

[970] She's a fucking badass.

[971] Yeah, she is.

[972] That was amazing.

[973] Totally.

[974] Great story.

[975] Thank you.

[976] And a survivor story, which is great.

[977] Oh, we have an announcement.

[978] Oh, yeah.

[979] So this week, I think we talked about this a little bit last week, but there's so much going on in the world.

[980] There's so much that's stress.

[981] and scary, but one of the things I think that's really upsetting lately are these laws being passed against transgender youth, against transgender treatment, against transgender, like family seeking care for their transgender children.

[982] And it's really upsetting and it's really odd.

[983] It just doesn't really make a ton of sense why it's just a really extreme scary thing that people need to really start paying attention to.

[984] And I've read a bunch of stuff about it.

[985] And one of the things someone someone sent me an article on Twitter and it's basically saying this is how the Nazis started right the Nazis started basically attack and discriminate and pass laws against people that everybody else quote unquote would think well that's fine with for them right that's that kind of othering thing where it's not a big deal if it's happening to them because that's not my life and that's not my family it doesn't affect me and so and I'm also scared of this you know this other anyway so I'm not going to pay attention to it or I feel the need because I think that I'm a faith -based person that I'm going to judge these other people or that I somehow have the right to to make up stories about people I don't even know right and the truth of it is that whether or not someone is trans is that person's business it's that person's life and nobody outside of that person can tell them or can judge anything about that.

[986] them.

[987] It's a ridiculous idea to sit outside and pretend that you can decide how another person should live their life that way.

[988] And this is, it's one thing to talk about it, you know, at work or when you're at a bar and be a bigot.

[989] But the idea that they're passing laws in Texas, in Idaho, in all these places that are really extremist, they're really like crazy right wing and they're really dangerous.

[990] It's inhumane.

[991] It's fucking inhumane.

[992] way they want to treat people that aren't like them.

[993] It's also based in ignorance.

[994] There's just so much ignorance around it that they're trying to their, the story that's being told is one based in ignorance.

[995] So all that is to say, we're going to donate $10 ,000 to the National Center for Transgender Equality.

[996] This is an organization that advocates to change policies and society to increase understanding and acceptance of transgender people.

[997] So in the nation's capital and throughout the country, And CTE works to replace disrespect, discrimination, and violence with empathy, opportunity, and justice.

[998] And this is a very big organization.

[999] And so they actually asked us if there was anything specifically that we wanted our money to be put toward.

[1000] And we said fighting these transgender laws that seem to be popping up and being passed, you know, like with nobody knowing about them.

[1001] So if you want to donate to the National Center for Transgender, Equality, look them up at transequality .org.

[1002] Yep.

[1003] Trans rights are human rights, as we always have said.

[1004] As you well know, but it feels like other people need to start learning, too, because it's so extreme.

[1005] Yeah.

[1006] It's just really insanity.

[1007] It's not the world we want to live in, and I'm horrified that the country we live in is fucking making these decisions that have so many huge consequences for so many families and so many people.

[1008] And we're horrified by it.

[1009] so yeah give to if you can and you know just fight the good fight and keep that love in your heart that's right we appreciate you guys listening thank you so much don't forget to buy your brock's taco truck jelly beans this is not a paid advertisement no this is a sincere endorsement of taco truck jelly bean yeah jelly beans they were jelly beans oh also stay sexy and don't get murdered Goodbye.

[1010] Elvis, do you want a cookie?

[1011] This has been an exactly right production.

[1012] Our senior producer is Hannah Kyle Crichton.

[1013] Our producer is Alejandra Keck.

[1014] This episode was engineered and mixed by Stephen Ray Morris.

[1015] A researchers are Jay Elias and Haley Gray.

[1016] Email your hometowns and fucking hoorays to My Favorite Murder at gmail .com.

[1017] Follow the show on Instagram and Facebook at My Favorite Murder and Twitter at MyFave Murder.

[1018] Listen, subscribe, and leave us a review on Amazon Music, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.

[1019] Goodbye.