Penn Badgley

[0] Hi, my name is Penn Badgley, and I feel the dull echo of imposter's syndrome at the prospect of being Conan O 'Brien's friend.

[1] Really?

[2] You feel like you'd be an imposter?

[3] I just feel like I have to be honest about how, I mean, I grew up watching you.

[4] And like I said, when I shook your hand.

[5] Oh, my God.

[6] Hold on a second.

[7] Sona just walked in.

[8] Sona.

[9] Are you actually...

[10] Oh, we're doing the show.

[11] And you know what Penn was just going on about what an honor it is.

[12] to meet me and you you interrupted and now it's probably out of his head yeah no you're welcome fall is here hear the yell back to school ring the bell brand of shoes walking loose climb the fence books and pens I can tell that we are going to be friends I can tell that we are going to be friends Hey Conan O 'Brien here Welcome to Conan O 'Brien Needs a Friend sitting here with my gang Yeah, we're talking Sona, Matt We are talking Sona We are, we're gang Yeah, we are a gang You're my posse Ride or die My group I'm excited We have a terrific program today I believe Is it okay to call it a program I know we've discussed this before It's a program Yeah Old habits die hard They really do I think you just Yeah I just like that we're a gang Do you think we're intimidating Yes.

[13] I don't think we are.

[14] I think you're intimidating to people.

[15] You think he's intimidated?

[16] Not like as a person, but you know, because you're, you are who you are, I think you can sometimes be very intimidating to like people on the street.

[17] Also, I'm a, I'm a tall drink of water.

[18] Yeah.

[19] But you're like a skinny tall, you know?

[20] Yeah, but well -muscled, chiseled.

[21] I was intimidated the first time I met you.

[22] What?

[23] No, you weren't.

[24] Yes, I was.

[25] Really?

[26] Sure.

[27] I came in the room.

[28] You were kind of a wise ass.

[29] I don't remember you being.

[30] I don't remember being a wise ass.

[31] You really weren't.

[32] You were a nice guy.

[33] I was intimidated too.

[34] Well, I'm glad.

[35] I got over it very quickly.

[36] Me too.

[37] I'll say that I think there are known people, obviously, whose persona is intimidating.

[38] And so I don't think they get approached that much.

[39] And I'm quite certain that I have one of the least intimidating personas of any known person because people aren't afraid to come up.

[40] Do you know what I mean?

[41] And then if you're, you look at people like a Robert De Niro or a Sean Penn, I think movie people are different because you see them blown up on a big screen.

[42] Yeah, but you've seen those people violent.

[43] Yeah.

[44] You're like a, you know, you're a funny guy.

[45] Well, thank you.

[46] I didn't think you enjoyed my humor.

[47] Oh, thank you.

[48] I don't know if I enjoy it.

[49] Okay.

[50] But you say technically I'm in the category of funny guy.

[51] You're in the category of a funny guy.

[52] I think that there's a difference between like, you know, bad boys who like, you know, And then there's...

[53] Well, what was that bad boy doing?

[54] Yeah, what was that person?

[55] Is he driving a mud truck?

[56] What is that?

[57] Yeah.

[58] I'm a bad boy.

[59] Now I'm going to get in my truck made of mud.

[60] Mug.

[61] Just the wheels are just sloshing off on the sides, falling apart.

[62] You get two feet.

[63] Didn't get as far in my mud truck as I thought I would.

[64] Why did I use this for a bank robbery?

[65] No, so, yeah, I don't think I'm an intimidating presence, so...

[66] I don't know.

[67] I think you are kind of, but I think you're...

[68] I don't know.

[69] What an interesting conversational lawyer you have.

[70] Back in that mud truck again?

[71] You ever see Sona when she was in the debate society?

[72] And I just think, yeah, blah, blah, blah.

[73] We find in favor of Sonam Obsessian.

[74] It'd be great if you just use them.

[75] that.

[76] You argued in front of the Supreme Court.

[77] But wait a minute.

[78] So you think a woman's right to privacy defend that?

[79] Well, blah.

[80] Plusy versus bad.

[81] Yeah.

[82] I think it's effective.

[83] It's very effective.

[84] It gets the job done.

[85] I'm very excited about our guest today.

[86] Oh, okay.

[87] We are.

[88] Yeah, I am.

[89] I like this fellow.

[90] He's a fine fellow.

[91] He's a chap.

[92] I'm not going to, I don't know who you're going to intro.

[93] right now.

[94] I know you do it's, you know what?

[95] It is stunning how little you prepare and how little you know.

[96] Who do you think this is?

[97] Do you guys prepare?

[98] Oh yeah.

[99] We write everything.

[100] This is all scripted.

[101] Yeah.

[102] Yeah.

[103] Oh no. We work very, very hard.

[104] I feel like sometimes you guys have meetings and you leave me out of it.

[105] I really do.

[106] Of course.

[107] We're trying to get stuff done.

[108] I can contribute.

[109] I can have names.

[110] Who do you think today's episode guest is?

[111] Yeah.

[112] Do you have any idea who could be.

[113] Not him.

[114] We already did it.

[115] Oh, I know who it is.

[116] It's Penn Badgley.

[117] Right.

[118] Because you've made a joke right before.

[119] Yes, I used to say, because I love just being stupid for no reason.

[120] So whenever Penn Badgley's name comes up, someone say, yeah, blah, blah, blah, and then you're going to talk to Penn Badgley, and I'll say more like Badge Penley.

[121] And I kept doing that over and over and over again, so much so that my kids and I were watching an old gossip girl.

[122] because we do watch those.

[123] They're really fun.

[124] The original from the 2000s.

[125] I did that joke so many times, yeah.

[126] You know, Penn Badgeley, more like Badge Penley.

[127] I did it so many times that I subconsciously thought that was his name.

[128] And then I did the same thing.

[129] And so my kids said, blah, blah, blah.

[130] And I went, yeah, more like Penn Badgley.

[131] And they were like, oh, my God, you just said his name correctly because you thought you were doing a bit, but you're only undoing the stupid bit you've done 50 times.

[132] I do that all the time, spoonerizing, and do you know your name spoonerized is Bonin -O -Kryan?

[133] Yeah, of course.

[134] There's a name for doing that?

[135] Yeah.

[136] That's what my parents intended.

[137] That's how you were conceived.

[138] Okay, okay.

[139] Back off.

[140] Back off.

[141] Back off.

[142] That's my mother.

[143] I don't go after Winifred.

[144] Who's Winifred?

[145] I don't know what you're talking about.

[146] Well, anyway.

[147] Your Gat Morley.

[148] Yeah.

[149] Yeah, and you're Mona subsessian.

[150] That's pretty good.

[151] Mona, Mona.

[152] What are you doing that?

[153] Why are you guys saying it like that?

[154] I don't know.

[155] I'm a creep.

[156] My name's Bonin, no crying.

[157] And you're like shocked that I went in a creepy direction.

[158] I didn't think I'd, I never thought I'd get that from Bonin.

[159] I never thought Mona would receive that kind of response.

[160] I'm like that when I see the Mona Lisa at the Louvre.

[161] I'm like, oh, Mona.

[162] Mona.

[163] Wait, you're like turned on by it?

[164] Yeah, very erotic name.

[165] Here we go.

[166] My guest today.

[167] played Daniel Humphrey for six seasons in Gossip Girl, currently stars in the Netflix series You, which returns for a fourth season next year.

[168] He also co -hosts the podcast, Podcrushed, available wherever you get your podcast.

[169] Very excited to talk with this gentleman today.

[170] Penn Badgley, welcome.

[171] I'm a fan of this gentleman, and I was liking, I will say, he was ladling a little bit of gravy, over me and I was enjoying every second of it.

[172] But I actually was trying to not be flattering.

[173] It's more like, in honor sounds like such a platitude.

[174] But it's, it's, it's just, it's just nice to be here, I guess.

[175] It's nice to have you here.

[176] It's nice to have you here.

[177] And during the pause you took, I can get someone who sounds like you to put in godlike, iconic.

[178] You're such a humble person.

[179] Conan, I have to tell you.

[180] Nobody sounds like that.

[181] Okay.

[182] Well, isn't there some way, Eduardo, isn't there some way that during the pause when Penn was thinking of what to say, no, Eduardo, be honest, isn't there some way we can manipulate Penn's voice to say, you are my hero?

[183] There's a way.

[184] It won't be good, but there is a way.

[185] But we could explain that he choked on a chip, he had, eating a PETA chip at that moment, and he choked.

[186] Yeah.

[187] And you are an inspiration.

[188] That's how good.

[189] That's how goarly sounds.

[190] Yeah, exactly.

[191] I don't know why you turned into Yoda all of a sudden.

[192] Quick, quick time out.

[193] I'm hearing music coming from a device.

[194] Oh, my God.

[195] Sona.

[196] I'm sorry.

[197] And when I told you this was going to be the low point of your day.

[198] You weren't lying.

[199] What is wrong with you?

[200] I'm sorry.

[201] You come crashing in late.

[202] I didn't know you were recording yet.

[203] And what music were you listening to?

[204] I was listening to Billy Ilish.

[205] Okay.

[206] Well, that's a good choice.

[207] I was enjoying my drive over here, and then I was having a really great day until I walked into this room.

[208] I swear to God, I thought I heard music, but I thought I was sorry.

[209] But I swear to God, I thought it was so subliminal.

[210] I thought I was falling in love with Penn Badgley.

[211] Seriously, like, I was looking at you and you were saying these nice things to me, and I heard music, and I thought, I'm in love with Penn Badgley, which I, you know, I'm sure a lot of people are.

[212] You know what?

[213] Maybe it wasn't my phone, and maybe you actually, I feel like you are.

[214] You've been talking about him a lot.

[215] I have been talking.

[216] You know, we have a lot to get into, but I will say I have to confess up front that my children are older than yours.

[217] I have two kids.

[218] And my daughter is now 19 and my son is about to be 17.

[219] But it became a thing in our family a couple of years ago to watch the original gossip girl.

[220] You're a gossip girl.

[221] And we would watch it.

[222] and it became our ritual.

[223] And the kids, you know, because they were too young when it originally happened.

[224] And so we all kind of bonded over watching it together.

[225] And then I would freak Sona out because here I am a man well into my 80s.

[226] And I would be at work and I would be talking about the plot line of Gonchville.

[227] And I know all the names.

[228] That's really surprising.

[229] And I know all this stuff.

[230] And you would say, Conan, it's like it's crazy.

[231] creepy that you know so much about what's happening.

[232] His TV knowledge is 1970s cop dramas and gossip girl.

[233] And that's it.

[234] That's it.

[235] That is really, yeah, okay, all right.

[236] I'm going to tell you something.

[237] I'm going to tell you something.

[238] It holds up.

[239] It holds up.

[240] That's good to hear.

[241] It holds up.

[242] And you have moved on.

[243] Have I?

[244] Yes, you.

[245] Sure.

[246] Yes, you have.

[247] I have certain obsessions, which is the breakfast you guys have on that show.

[248] Right.

[249] Yeah, the waffles.

[250] The waffles.

[251] And, you know, Rufus, your dad is always making what looks to be like a $1 ,700 four -season's breakfast.

[252] You guys each take one little bite and then say, I got to go and leave.

[253] You're right.

[254] Every single time.

[255] Every single time.

[256] And I'm looking at all this.

[257] untouched.

[258] I mean, beautiful golden -brown Belgian waffles, giant piles of strawberries, giant pictures of freshly squeezed orange juice.

[259] Yeah.

[260] One man. One man did that.

[261] One man did that, and he gave up his music career to do it.

[262] But also, clearly, and this ties into what I want to talk about later on in the conversation, which is your podcast, Pod Crushed.

[263] One of the things that you talk about is people who are experiencing middle school and being awkward and and having all this anxiety and all of us felt a lot of that at that age and it's really good to get the word out that that's how it is and yet you first came to fame as part of this show that was showing people the most super confident i mean we did not permit for for that no one had acne no because we were all in our 20s.

[264] You are...

[265] I still had acne in my 20s, Penn. I don't know what your problem is.

[266] I had acne during up until Obama's second term.

[267] But, no, but one of the things that what I watch now and it's, and clearly the show placed almost the camp of it is I love watching the Chuck Bass character.

[268] He's literally calling people, you know, there's like a fireplace behind him and he's wearing a smoking jacket.

[269] Yeah, like he's 60 years old.

[270] Yeah, and he's telling people, I've got controlling interest of Crilco Industries I bought out your shares you're through see yourself out don't let the door hit you in the ass he's 15 and he's got a PSAT tomorrow and I've always I love it I can't get enough of it I just love all of it I really like this perspective I need this perspective well you know it's really great because your character is the sort of dose of reality you're constantly looking around saying this is in many ways that's true That's true.

[271] Now, this is the thing that I grappled with a lot when I was on the show, and I was clear with it about the writers, and I was, you know, it was open conversation, I guess.

[272] The thing about Dan Humphrey that it seems is that the whole point of the show is that it discovered that it's, it wasn't worried about the real world.

[273] It wasn't, it wasn't worried about.

[274] Oh, no, I do think the show has a sense of humor about itself, clearly.

[275] Absolutely.

[276] You know, they're clearly enjoying the fact that, no, it's all what we wish we could have been at that age.

[277] including those of us on the show yeah yeah exactly no it's true yeah it's it's it's completely aspirational in that sense that it's yeah it's fantasy the first time that i ran across that was 90210 when that was coming along and it was such a big deal and i remembered thinking i know why this is so appealing to everybody it's all what we wish high school could have been in some ways.

[278] Do you know what I mean?

[279] I wish if I had, if I knew then what I know now, if I knew how to talk to someone of the opposite sex, if I had a credit card, if I had a decent car, maybe things would have been different.

[280] We all know that they wouldn't have been.

[281] They wouldn't have been.

[282] See, this is where, you know, I think like there's levels to it.

[283] And so what you just described, I think, makes it, makes it, it's the, it's the charm of it.

[284] And then I think what I think what I grappled with during it was like also you know what is the net effect can't be measured but what is the net effect of of because it's just one it's one drop in this in this bucket of of storytelling we've seen for the last I don't know you know 50 years or something about you know like glamorized glorified youth and it and actually I mean I'm actually I'm not I don't feel like I'm here to really promote my podcast it feels silly but I do have one and that and that is what that is what we talk about but I've been I've been listening to your podcast, and it occurred to me that there is a, it fascinates me, there is a connection to, you know, some of the work that you were doing, you know, just getting started in your career.

[285] It is almost a whole subgenre of entertainment, which is, we're going to present 17 -year -olds who go to high school, and we're going to show them in this way that we all kind of wish we could have been.

[286] You know, but, or want to be currently, if you're like.

[287] in the writer's room and you're maybe 35 and you're...

[288] Because really, that is, like, the way they all behave emotionally in relationship.

[289] It's far closer to that of like a 30 -something or a late 20s, you know, in New York and or L .A. You know, it's that, it really is, I think, the sort of fantasy behavior of how adults want to be.

[290] You know, if you saw actual 15 and 16 -year -olds cast in these roles, you'd be horrified.

[291] Yeah.

[292] You really would be horrified.

[293] Well, it would be so funny because...

[294] There'd be a real 15 -year -old with cystic acne who's playing Chuck Bass going, You're through.

[295] It's such a lot at Bass Enterprise.

[296] Exactly.

[297] And he's vomiting from the scotch he's drinking.

[298] Is it, you know?

[299] Scotch.

[300] This is us burning my throat.

[301] You're through it.

[302] Basco.

[303] What are you doing up?

[304] Mother!

[305] Yeah.

[306] I'm trying to fire the shareholder.

[307] Go to bed.

[308] I'm sorry.

[309] He doesn't have any shares in your cup.

[310] company.

[311] He's not old enough.

[312] You still have the company.

[313] Don't say that.

[314] You know, it's funny.

[315] Like, you'll be, that'll be, what you just pitched is a, to me, a really funny sketch of Gossip Girl played by actual, actual 14 and 15 year olds, shot single camera.

[316] And, you know, people making these moves like, I'm off to Paris.

[317] No, you're not.

[318] You're not fucking going to Paris.

[319] You're going to go to, you're going to go to high school.

[320] By the way, don't you have a paper do tomorrow, I'm on the trail of a killer.

[321] No, you're not.

[322] Yeah, that's right.

[323] On the trail of an actual killer.

[324] Yeah, whatever.

[325] Doing the FBI's work.

[326] Yes, yes.

[327] They always have a scheme.

[328] Yeah.

[329] And it's always like, you know, okay, here's the plan.

[330] We're all going to go to Stod.

[331] We're taking a private plane to Stod.

[332] And we're going to stop them from stealing.

[333] I don't know.

[334] I'm always, I love to quote Stod, but I don't really know where it is.

[335] Is Stod in Switzerland?

[336] I think it's in Switzerland.

[337] I have no idea.

[338] You always use it as you're like...

[339] It's a go -to.

[340] Someday I want to have some money nestled away and stahd.

[341] But anyway, that's a really funny idea.

[342] We'll get together and we'll produce that.

[343] Because actually really awkward kids and constantly their parents intervening, saying, no, you're not a shareholder.

[344] No, get back into your room and finish.

[345] And I actually think like the quote -unquote love scenes, like the real awkwardness, of two 15 -year -olds kind of like barely being able to look at each other and just, you know, having, having, I mean, think about that.

[346] Think about the emotional maturity of a 15, 16, 17 -year -old in a relationship.

[347] I mean, you think about the way that, like, we would hold each other's faces and look longingly and say things like, I still have never held anyone's face.

[348] I've been married 20 years.

[349] And if I put my hands on my wife's face, I think she'd call the police, do you know what I mean?

[350] And looked into her up.

[351] I started like, why are you looking at me?

[352] I feel like if you were cast in one of these high school shows, it would be actually more accurate.

[353] Yeah, I could do it now.

[354] Now, at 59, if you cast me as a 19 -year -old in gossip girl, I think I would be more convincing than 22 -year -olds playing 19 -year -olds.

[355] I would even say that there's no, okay, just practically speaking, the shot that looks good from the side of two people in love saying, I love you.

[356] You're so close.

[357] you actually can't see each other you're out of focus one eye is here the other eyes there and you're like and it was like okay this is you're actually it's it's really absurd so when you're bringing it to life you never actually got a good look at Blake Lively no no I know I wouldn't recognize her just a blur I can see that now and I'm gonna look for that now when I go back you seem uncertain about what you're Am I talking to a waffle or Blake Lively?

[358] It's like when you're in the front row of an IMAX.

[359] Yeah.

[360] Oh, yes, yes.

[361] I mean, there's so much to talk about because I am fascinated by.

[362] I talk about this a lot and it's an important subject for me, which is I totally killed awkwardness as a 14, 15, 16 year old.

[363] I owned it.

[364] I was, I mean, I got a merit badge in awkward.

[365] And so I love to talk about that.

[366] and let people know.

[367] I think one of the things that I always thought is I would see people on television and think, oh, that's what they always were.

[368] And, you know, interestingly now, it's become much more of an open topic, but people idealizing every single facet of their life rather than showing it for what it really is, which is there's tons of awkwardness, tons of humiliation.

[369] Mostly.

[370] Okay, now you're going too far.

[371] I don't.

[372] That's really, no, I mean, I mean, you know, okay, in my case, yes.

[373] But, like, no, that was one of the things that I, I, when listening to your podcast, podcrushed, I like the premise, which is you and two of your friends who are quite, former teachers.

[374] Former teachers who are very knowledgeable about this stuff are talking about this actual period of your life that people, especially now, and you look at Instagram and all social media, everybody, thinks that everyone else looks like a supermodel in yoga pants and that is a it's warped, it's a fun house mirror.

[375] Yeah.

[376] But even, I mean, it's funny too because I think more and more there is a booming trend of celebrities, whatever we want to call them, of authenticity being vulnerable, talking about how that's all of a side.

[377] But it doesn't, I don't think that that's a drop in the bucket compared to the decades of cultural teaching we've gotten of the opposite, you know?

[378] And so it doesn't really, I think, land.

[379] I mean, even, I mean, how much did I have to kind of step over this threshold of being like, I've been watching you on my screen since over half my life, you know?

[380] And it's a strange phenomenon.

[381] You witness this image.

[382] What can you do, but ultimately glorify it, you know?

[383] I hope so.

[384] Yeah.

[385] I mean, for God's sake, I've tried for years.

[386] God damn it Won't someone glorify me?

[387] No, but it's true because there's this phrase you'll hear publicists say it I've worked with people who've said it where you meet someone You've probably experienced this You meet someone in this business early on And they're very real, they're very themselves And then you hear later Oh, they went through the machine You ever heard that phrase?

[388] Yeah, I've probably said it, yeah Yeah, and what happens is you then see them later on and they're not quite as accessible and vulnerable they dress a lot better but clearly they've gone through some process in order to and I don't know what the thinking is is it to make you look better on a red carpet or partly yeah exactly and it makes me I've had that a couple of times and I've felt what saddened me to be honest with you and I witnessed a few times with celebrities who I knew them really early on in their career.

[389] And then I saw them just a couple of years later when they had experienced like a real burst of fame.

[390] And I could tell then there's a distance or something isn't quite.

[391] No, a distance is a great way to put it.

[392] I think, you know, what I've, I went through my very cynical years.

[393] I mean, so I moved to L .A. when I was 12 and I was working right away.

[394] And I left when I was 20 to do Gossip Girl.

[395] And right before that I was thinking about quitting because I'd been doing so much television.

[396] I mean, I'd been doing so much television that by the time the gossip girl offer came around I was like I just don't think I can do anymore of this I mean I'd been working for Warner Brothers at that point since I was like 14 Well take me through this because let's slow it down for a second Because this one I want to hear I know you're originally from Baltimore Is that right?

[397] Well so I was born there but I really never lived there And I mean I was two you know I wasn't making I didn't have agency when I was two So I didn't know I'm the only one out of all my cousins Who really doesn't know Maryland as well So I take Baltimore is a bit of a technicality It is a technicality.

[398] It sounds great.

[399] And then why did you move to L .A.?

[400] Well, so from there I lived in Virginia, which is a very sort of idyllic suburban thing, only child, two parents.

[401] And then the fissures began forming.

[402] Then we sort of had to leave and go to the west coast.

[403] We had far away, so we went to Washington State.

[404] We lived in a house that was like on a mountain side.

[405] Our neighbors were like a mile away.

[406] The driveway was like two tire tracks up the road.

[407] I lost my cat three days after arriving, presumably to coyotes or, you know, cat never returned, which was heartbreaking.

[408] And because it was the end of the school year, and I wasn't going to be returning to some kind of schooling for a few months, there was like no social outlet.

[409] And it was in that context that...

[410] When you said the fissures formed, was it your parents divorced?

[411] Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[412] Okay, got it.

[413] It was a nice little metaphorical way of saying.

[414] The family was falling apart, as they do.

[415] Fischer's formed.

[416] Wait, what?

[417] Fischer's formed.

[418] Yes, I should clarify.

[419] Yeah.

[420] I thought you were talking, speaking geologically, but yes, your parents were, for us.

[421] So that sounds, I mean...

[422] Our house was being swallowed up by the earth.

[423] So we had to leave.

[424] But that's rough.

[425] So you were living with your mom, your dad?

[426] They were together, but it was falling apart.

[427] And the reason, by the way, and the only reason that I'm open about that is I actually think, like, what puts a 12 -year -old into Hollywood in any meaningful way is, like, it's not a great choice.

[428] like I wouldn't recommend to anybody to do that a lot of people I grew up alongside are a case study in that as am I even if I look successful on one end and just like the sort of work I've had to do to reconcile just that is you know it's a lot but Washington State and a lot of isolation is what led me to acting it was a social outlet to be honest it was and on the stage performing was your first big moment did you have a moment when it called clicked for you yeah so I was playing Winthroping trip in the music man. Oh my God, the music man is my, my dream.

[429] Really?

[430] Is, yes, is to play Harold Hill and the music man. Because I've always thought that's what I was sort of born to do.

[431] Right.

[432] And basically just do the trouble song and then leave.

[433] I just want to do the trouble.

[434] You know, I don't need to sing that I love you to a librarian.

[435] None of that.

[436] I just want to be brought in, do the trouble song, and then a helicopter comes and takes me away.

[437] It's a very unusual production of the music man. It's an amazing song.

[438] So being on stage in this community theater, it was, by the way, like 50 miles away from my home, which we would travel to every day.

[439] Oh, my God.

[440] It's like 100 miles every day.

[441] But you realized, okay, this is it.

[442] Yeah, I mean, you're bound together with like a common purpose with not just kids your age.

[443] You know, it's just people of all ages and walks of life, relatively speaking, in that place, in that corner of the world.

[444] And, yeah, I was just like, this is amazing.

[445] And you know what?

[446] Soon after that, I got into radio.

[447] So actually being in a vocal booth, and like this kind of thing.

[448] This is really where my professional life started at nine years old.

[449] So, you know, one of the jokes with my podcast about middle school is that I didn't really, I didn't finish middle school.

[450] I didn't attend high school because I was working.

[451] At what age did you leave middle school?

[452] 12 officially, and I was in seventh grade then.

[453] Didn't finish my seventh grade year.

[454] I skipped eighth grade and started homeschooling as a ninth grader, which was completely and utterly meaningless.

[455] this particular like government -assisted program I was in and got a computer.

[456] And actually, soon after I took a proficiency exam that gave me the equivalent in California State to a high school diploma so I could actually work adult hours and wouldn't have to do the whole tutor thing, which to be honest, was preferable because it's like when you're working on set, you then have to do these three hours of...

[457] You know, I've always been really suspicious of that.

[458] And most of my career has been obviously working in this variety form.

[459] at so I haven't been exposed to that, but the few times that I've been on a set and I've seen kids leaving to go with their tutor and then being released from the tutor so they can come back and run away from the dinosaur or whatever they're supposed to do, it always felt like this can't be great.

[460] No, it's not.

[461] Yeah, it's definitely not.

[462] And so as long as I was going to go on this path, I actually think it was the right way.

[463] because it helped me to remain excited to learn because I was not having toxic learning experiences, partly because I didn't finish middle school or go to high school.

[464] I actually always have retained the just utter joy of reading, you know, and I think working also gave me so many experiences that acted like another kind of education.

[465] Yeah, but it's interesting because I think a love of reading conquers all.

[466] I agree with that.

[467] And I stumbled upon this great quote, the other day from Gertrude Stein.

[468] I don't know who that is.

[469] I didn't, I didn't, I didn't, I, yeah, early modernist, you know, helped Hemingway get his start, living in Paris.

[470] Anyway, but Gertrude Stein said at the end of the day, and I'm misquoting her, but basically it was at the end of the day an education may not be very important at all.

[471] And I took that to mean it really is what you, it's how you educate yourself in so many ways that can make up for anything.

[472] I mean, there are people that have tons of education and don't know anything.

[473] And there are people who educate themselves.

[474] And I think reading is just being curious, just being curious about the world and reading books can, you know, some of the most brilliant people I've met, I don't even know where they went to college or if they went to college.

[475] But they're, you know, autodidacts.

[476] They just teach themselves things.

[477] And I'm really in awe of them because, you know, in our country, obviously, we get really obsessed with, you know, where'd you go to school?

[478] You know, and I think there's so much education that you can do for yourself.

[479] Yeah, I mean, it also seems to me, I mean, you went to an incredible university.

[480] I feel like everybody's report from school has to do a lot more with life experience, I think, right?

[481] No, definitely.

[482] One thing everybody knows about me is that I went to Harvard.

[483] And I'm, I worked really hard in high school to go there.

[484] I was interested in going to a good college.

[485] I'm proud that I got in.

[486] I can't tell you what I learned there that I retained today what I remember of the people.

[487] I remember meeting lots of interesting people, many of whom are still my friends to this day.

[488] I remember getting interested in comedy.

[489] I was always interested in comedy, but finding an outlet for it there.

[490] But I'm very clear with my kids that it was not, it's not hogwool.

[491] You don't go to these schools, and they impart some magical spells to you that then take you on in life, and you're a great sorcerer, and you get an owl.

[492] I'm going to keep going with this.

[493] You know, Snape's involved.

[494] I think that's enough.

[495] Okay, I think it's...

[496] I'd like to hear more.

[497] I don't know.

[498] I don't get this every day, so I know you're sick of it.

[499] There are different houses, you know.

[500] Yeah, great.

[501] How many?

[502] Well, it's interesting, you say, there's slithering.

[503] By what's name.

[504] He's due.

[505] But I do think it's, you know, my great education in my life has been stumbling around, making mistakes in the real world, humiliating myself, having some things go well, some things go terribly.

[506] That has been my education.

[507] And I sometimes feel badly that there's all this pressure on kids today, that there are certain schools that have the golden key.

[508] And if you don't get to those schools, you cannot move forward.

[509] and I think of all my heroes who didn't go to school or went to a school I don't know or were terrible students flunked out and they have achieved spectacular things and it's another thing that would probably come up on your podcast because I see it so much as I mean schools are so much more competitive now than they were when I was applying I don't think I'd get into any of these schools now they're you know kids are competing against everybody They're competing against the very best kids in the entire world in China and India.

[510] And it is very, very, very difficult.

[511] And I think it's a lot of pressure for a really young kid to have.

[512] It really is.

[513] And then also, once you get out, and just the relevance of a degree now and just how many.

[514] Do people say the job market anymore?

[515] Is that a?

[516] I mean, I feel like I used to hear that a lot.

[517] Used to hear it.

[518] Now after COVID, it's like, let's something.

[519] No one has said job market in three years.

[520] I don't know why we're laughing Everything's crumbling around us Yeah, mass the pain, yeah So I'm curious because I want to follow this a little bit You start doing theater And then how do you get into television And what kind of roles are you doing?

[521] Are you working in television as a child?

[522] Yes, I mean, so in Washington, it was theater and voiceover.

[523] Right.

[524] So I really did a lot of like radio and like video game voiceover stuff.

[525] Seattle, children's theater.

[526] is a pretty than it was, I think it still is.

[527] My wife is from Seattle, and so I've spent a lot of time there visiting her family, and we've seen many Seattle Children's Theater productions.

[528] So I'm really well familiar with it, and they're fantastic.

[529] Yeah, I mean, I remember just being kind of enchanted.

[530] Again, so I went from this community theater in a town called Monroe that was very far away from where we lived, doing The Music Man, to, you know, what felt like big city metropolitan children doing reviews.

[531] And I remember we did one musical review and then, wow, I haven't thought about this in so long.

[532] And then we did one that was not a musical, which I loved.

[533] It was called Barbie's Demise.

[534] Oh, my God.

[535] And it was written by teenagers.

[536] And I was, you know, probably 10.

[537] So to me, they were the coolest people in the world writing some original, like, radical feminist for the time.

[538] Who knows now what it, but yeah, it was called.

[539] It was literally called Barbie's demise.

[540] This is coming out of my...

[541] This is a good therapy session for you.

[542] You owe me $140.

[543] There is got more than that now.

[544] Come on.

[545] Trust me. Trust me, I know.

[546] I was knocked about $100 off of it.

[547] Yeah, I can recall just this sort of bustling feeling of entering into...

[548] Yeah, like I said, this kind of metropolitan feeling of like making art. It really did feel that way.

[549] I remember very clearly, you know, when I was first...

[550] If I saw teenagers, I mean, when I was like 12, 13, if I saw 18 -year -olds, it's very difficult to explain now how insane that gap is.

[551] It's the biggest gap in the world.

[552] It's a massive gap, and it's something that you don't get later on in life because it's not like I can say, well, you know, whatever, is a guy in my 50s.

[553] Oh, my God, you're 65.

[554] That's so impressive.

[555] It doesn't work that way anymore.

[556] Do you know what I mean?

[557] No, not at all.

[558] Even from, I would say, I would even say from 20 to 40, like I'm 36, it will be 36 shortly.

[559] I'm waiting for happy birthday.

[560] Oh, happy.

[561] Well, you didn't say how short.

[562] We were waiting to see how shortly.

[563] Is it within the...

[564] 240 days?

[565] No, it's like, it's in a few days, but I was stupid.

[566] Happy birthday.

[567] Happy birthday.

[568] And we're going to keep saying it to make you feel like shit.

[569] Happy birthday.

[570] Oh, no. This part's got to stay Trust me Sona when she just had her birthday And she calls it her birthday month Birth month Birth month Yeah, it's not birthday month Sounds stupid Yeah, that's ridiculous I went to a good college That proves I didn't say something stupid This proves my point exactly I just called it birthday month Yes But you make No one makes a bigger deal I love my birthday If you were pan - Are you a big birthday person?

[571] No I know, but my, my wife is.

[572] Yeah, I love it.

[573] What if you were, were you going to say?

[574] If you were Penn, you would be celebrating, starting several weeks before your birthday and then extending several months afterwards.

[575] This would be part of birth month if I were you, you know.

[576] You wouldn't be here, is the point.

[577] You'd be, you'd be off.

[578] Yeah.

[579] I would bring in a cake that I brought myself and then make everybody say happy birthday.

[580] And you'd charge it to the show.

[581] And she's laughing.

[582] Because that's exactly, exactly true.

[583] Yeah.

[584] So you come to L .A. at some point and you're doing, do you know then that like, okay, this is, I can do this for a living?

[585] I can be on television.

[586] I know you're doing voiceovers for a bit.

[587] Yeah, so what happened was, I guess I started doing auditions for commercials and like movies.

[588] In fact, from what I recall, do you remember this movie Mercury Rising?

[589] Yeah.

[590] with Bruce Willis.

[591] Yeah.

[592] And I believe at the time, a child named Miko Hughes.

[593] That role was the first audition I had, put myself on tape in Seattle.

[594] I can remember vividly the casting office.

[595] Again, things I've not recalled in a long time.

[596] Yeah, I had repeated callbacks on that.

[597] Really was invested in the, I mean, this actually sounds like in a lot of ways sort of reductive and problematic.

[598] But at the time, you didn't see a lot of representation to people with autism or disabled.

[599] and certainly didn't have disabled actors playing those people.

[600] So I was, you know, I, like, I watched Rain Man and was really motivated as a young artist, as a young performer, but this idea of, like, really inhabiting somebody else's sort of, like, frame of mind and heart.

[601] And, you know what I mean?

[602] Like, it was actually really exciting, you know, like working on those mannerisms and stuff to play an autistic child.

[603] And then years later, like at 17 or 18 years old, I had a meeting with, like, the VP of casting at Warner Brothers or something, and she, from what I, it's, I almost feel silly saying it, but from what I remember, she said she remembered my tape and that I was evidently one of the last names in the running for that.

[604] And I was like, oh, I never heard that.

[605] That's, that's cool.

[606] But that's to say that, you know, at what, I probably nine or ten years old.

[607] I mean, I was like actively pursuing what would become, you know, career and film and TV and it and it felt good you know for all the stuff I mentioned earlier about the culture here that you can't avoid and that and that a child is like alone in the ocean a little bit doesn't have the tools to really recognize um but apart from that I was like authentically pursuing some kind of career as an artist and and I liked that it was it felt really good and then I started working and then no um it's hard you know that's the other thing too is that it's it's again you want to talk about people idealizing things, the career and the work that you've done, being in the business, having success is idealized by a lot of people.

[608] And I remember one of the first things when I first got into the business, especially on camera, someone gave me some advice, never complain, never get, never be caught complaining.

[609] And I thought, oh, that's true, because I remember once we had the author Frank McCord on, who's this great Irish writer who wrote Angela's Ashes and he talks about his terrible upbringing and literally being impoverished and he had written these amazing works about his really tough childhood in Ireland in like the 1930s and 40s.

[610] And I remember we had him on the show and the show's over and we had just a really tough long string of shows in a row and I walked out and I'm pulling my tie off and I'm going, oh my God, man, This gig sometimes just really gets to me. And I forgot who I was talking to.

[611] I'm talking to Frank McCourt, the guy who is famous for writing about his impoverished childhood in Ireland.

[612] And he went, well, I bet there's a lot of other feckin people who'd be willing to do it if you'd want to give it up Conan.

[613] And I'm like, no, no, Mr. McCourt.

[614] No, I'm, I know, I'm so happy that I, you know, because I immediately, you know, here I am with my makeup on.

[615] Yeah, right.

[616] Wearing a suit jacket, and I've just chatted and done some banter and been very highly compensated for it.

[617] And I said, oh, man, this job sometimes, you feel like you're a little feck and tired of your job.

[618] You know, like, and I thought, Jesus Christ.

[619] But the times I've been around, especially single camera, and I had a little bit of experience with it a couple of months ago, and I was stunned at how hard everybody's working.

[620] Yeah, really.

[621] I mean, hours are long and stuff.

[622] And not just the act, I mean, the actors are there, but then anyone, the crew, the people, the people in makeup are there.

[623] So the actors are showing up at like five and the, six in the morning, but the people in hair and makeup are showing up at 4 .30 in the morning to get everything ready for them.

[624] And they're packing up after the actors go home.

[625] I just was blown away.

[626] And now I look at these single camera shows and movies very differently, I think.

[627] Wait a minute.

[628] Every shot I'm seeing, there were, it was done.

[629] 55 different ways.

[630] Yeah, and it took five months for like four minutes of footage with some of these big ones, you know?

[631] I mean, it's a behemoth enterprise, and it really is, like, it's an amazing thing to be a part of.

[632] And, you know, I agree with you about this, uh, complaining is, in this industry is, it's definitely a bad look.

[633] Um, I, I think, you know, the only time that I'm, um, forthcoming or, or transparent about, about, about the processes, is more of like, as a witness to help people, to not idealize it in a way that it's sort of like, I don't know, it just leads to more and more fantasy.

[634] You know what I mean?

[635] It's like I personally love what I do and I'm also constantly taking stock of like the culture of the industry.

[636] It's just, yeah, it's like really, really intense.

[637] I think you're bringing up a good point which is you need to love it.

[638] You need to love it.

[639] Are you willing to like give it your absolute all?

[640] Yeah.

[641] And I always say, Are you willing to feed, like, remove your leg and feed it into a wood chipper to do this because you love it that much?

[642] And if the answer is yes, then you have your answer.

[643] I think you and I both know people who've got into this because they thought, if I get famous, this will be the salve and the ointment that will cure my insecurities, the fact that I was a nerd, the fact that no one, the, the girl I like didn't pay attention to.

[644] me this will cure all of those wounds and i know people that felt that way got famous that didn't happen it doesn't fix if you've got a hole inside you you still have that hole and they become enraged about it they're furious yeah they're rich and recognizable and they're really angry because it didn't fix the thing that they wanted to fix and yeah and at that point the hill is really tall yeah the peak is very far away because yeah i mean also you know again in and i and i hope in this context is clear like not at all complaining about it it's it's it's like bearing witness to this reality we know that like fame and wealth how many more documentaries is about are the world's biggest icons and most talented people who've got how many more do we need to see yeah fallen and collapsed like you know like it just helps us understand the forces at work like certainly never be ungrateful and then like let's not paper over how it's uh there's always a cost.

[645] And there's a cost to everything.

[646] And so you just need to be reasonable and you need to see both sides of it and weigh them.

[647] Yeah.

[648] And sometimes if the cost gets too high, you need to track that as well.

[649] And I think the big antidote, something you've done, I've done, is find your partner, have kids.

[650] That is huge.

[651] It really is.

[652] And then invest in that because the rest of it will come and go.

[653] but my wife assures me she will never leave me and I make her renew that vow every day okay yeah is taking time bomb you think she's on the way out all it takes is one one facehold I know that's right I'm watching way too many gossip girls these days my daughter covering her ears It's also, you know, in this modern era, like the idea of taking a woman's face and holding it still, while you say things like, I'm going to hold your face right here so that you have to, so I can mansplain something to you.

[654] Yeah, I wouldn't, I wouldn't like that.

[655] Has Tack ever held your face?

[656] Tack has never held my face.

[657] He's never been like, you know.

[658] What about this?

[659] What about the, what about the?

[660] Oh, God.

[661] Oh, the little that.

[662] I do that to myself.

[663] Is that weird?

[664] It's a little like a...

[665] It's a little autoerotic.

[666] Yeah.

[667] You make that face when you do it?

[668] I do this, yeah.

[669] I make kind of a weird, pouting face as I stroke my own chin.

[670] That's weird.

[671] I got me through fifth, sixth, seventh grade.

[672] Did you do it in class?

[673] Sometimes.

[674] The teacher would say, Conan, stop that.

[675] And I'd go, ugh.

[676] Why did you do that noise, though?

[677] It's a sound.

[678] Well, it gets...

[679] a podcast.

[680] Yeah, that's a habit I have to get rid of.

[681] Yeah, you should stop grazing your cheek like that.

[682] That's just weird.

[683] I remember I've talked about sex liens and videotape.

[684] James Spader, when that movie came out, I remember they wanted to show him pleasuring himself, but in a way that was acceptable in the late 80s.

[685] So he'd have no shirt on and he'd just be rubbing his fingers across the top of his chest.

[686] And I remembered that took me completely out of the movie.

[687] Like, oh, okay, that doesn't seem that efficient.

[688] I'm sorry.

[689] I don't think that's going to get the job done.

[690] It depends on how long you got.

[691] You know what's funny about that is that now cut to, I don't know what the rating is on my show, you.

[692] But it's like, I'm now famous for, among other things, masturbating.

[693] Right.

[694] Well, the thing is, I'm on your show.

[695] It's even in the pilot.

[696] They have it, they have it happening in the, you know.

[697] In the pilot.

[698] In the pilot, you are watching the object of your affection from across the street and you start taking care of business.

[699] And you're not what we call spader baiting.

[700] really doing it and and then i'm wondering is there direction involved oh yeah i mean so what does the director say so from what i so first of all what's interesting about this is it is it is on 19th street in grammarsie which is the first street i lived on in new york city so it was it was the added bit of surreality for me is that i it was it very much was like a neighborhood street for me like i was very much at home but now surrounded by a film crew at like you know 11 p .m. at night and um and by the way like keep in mind not looking at anything real i'm looking at an X, a tape mark.

[701] Right, they're holding like a, they're holding like a, there's like a fishing pole with a golf ball hanging off of it.

[702] They're saying, just look at that and pretend that it's, right, and erotic woman.

[703] You don't realize how awkward it's going to be until you just got to go ahead and act like that.

[704] And one of the things that I struggled with a lot when I first took the role was like, I don't want to lean away from the horrific aspects of this person.

[705] I, you know, I don't want to be just, as we've said, you know, it's hard not to glorify actually almost anything you see on.

[706] camera, so I'm going to just be conscious of that.

[707] So there were two things that I did that were, and again, I don't know what happened.

[708] I don't remember what they used.

[709] I don't remember, so it may not be this way in the show.

[710] But what I did up until the director came and was like, you can't do that anymore, is that I was slow and my eyes were open.

[711] And I just, you know, I was like, I am going to be very slow.

[712] And I am not going to fucking blow.

[713] I like that a director came over and said, You've got to stop that now.

[714] And at some point, he comes up and he's, he was trying to be very kind.

[715] And he was like, hey, so I think, I think we're going to have to get you to close your eyes.

[716] You know?

[717] Well, now I know why I didn't get this role.

[718] And I remember I was, because I was already very conscious of not wanting to be like sexily masturbating outside of the street of, you know, it's like, ugh, it's very intense to play this person.

[719] And, you know, and I was kind of, I was already like, why, why, why, why, why?

[720] Like, tell me. Why are my eyes closed?

[721] Yeah, you know, just being very principled.

[722] And this is where, you know, at this point, I don't know what I was thinking as an actor, but just as a person who was uncomfortable.

[723] I just was kind of ready to go.

[724] By the way, my version of confrontational, the people pleaser that I am working all my life in Hollywood was like, okay, okay, okay.

[725] In my mind, I'm like, why, why, why, why?

[726] I don't remember what I actually said.

[727] I was Frank McCord had been there.

[728] If you don't want to fucking jerk off, I bet that someone else would be willing to do it for a couple hundred fucking thousand dollars.

[729] I'm not comfortable with this.

[730] Ah, you don't want to whack it to you.

[731] Well, let me tell you something.

[732] That started to It threw into like a rap almost at the end That hadn't really Yeah Yeah and so And so And I don't remember Anybody talking me To speed up But I think I just did Because it felt so weird To be going so slow Yeah Yeah And then they use what they use Whatever You can go back and watch Whatever it is I don't remember what it is I don't remember what it is I think the director Just put it on fast He sped up the film So you were doing it really slow But it's like And in the background Cars are going really fast And the sun comes comes up and goes down like three times.

[733] Because apparently you were doing it for days.

[734] Well, you know what, I am.

[735] I feel like I'm a natural for your podcast, podcrushed.

[736] I think I should.

[737] If you actually, if you actually want to come on, I mean, we would love to have you.

[738] Because, you know, if you're looking for people with an awkward past who need to come clean, I'm your man. A deep well, I bet.

[739] Deep, past, present, and future.

[740] What are you talking about?

[741] I turned into such a cool.

[742] guy.

[743] Now I am Chuck Bass.

[744] You're about the age.

[745] You're getting to the to the age of the Chuck Bass disposition.

[746] Chuck Bass honestly had the disposition of like a yakuza member.

[747] Like is just just points and Oh it's so true.

[748] And also the amount of brown liquor that's the thing I love is it'll be like 2 o 'clock in the after.

[749] And he's throwing back...

[750] Drinking it like water.

[751] Yeah, drinking it like water.

[752] And I'm like, oh, no, that fucks you up.

[753] And you're 17?

[754] You have algebra in an hour.

[755] In algebra.

[756] You're through it, Bass Industries.

[757] Yeah, he really is Montgomery Burns from the Simpsons.

[758] He's Mr. Burns.

[759] But, well, this made me really happy.

[760] I was so glad that you could come in and do this.

[761] And you know what blew me away?

[762] Is it we never met?

[763] Yeah, no, never.

[764] And, you know, I was on my way in here, and I was like, wait a minute, I've never met Penn Badgley and told my family that I was going to be interviewing you today and got major points.

[765] That's great to hear.

[766] No, seriously, it is a ritual for us and my daughter's off at college now, but when we get, when we all get together, one of their things is we watch some gossip girls.

[767] Oh, really?

[768] Yeah, that's really cool to hear.

[769] Honestly, sometimes, yeah, and my wife sees me watching one alone, I get in trouble.

[770] Because suddenly I'm a pervert It's because your eyes are open And I'm I have no shirt on and I'm just You get spader baiting You're just spader dating I'm standing I have my pants on I'm standing You're standing And I'm standing And it's like yeah No he's lying down But I'm standing Because I've I've taken the spader method And I'm do it Standing up Yeah and I'm just I'm rubbing my chest and I'm watching a gossip girl from, like, 2006.

[771] And you have no expression on your face, right?

[772] None.

[773] No, it's just dead.

[774] Just a completely dead face.

[775] He just did a really dead face.

[776] Oh, this is on video.

[777] You'll see it.

[778] No, don't look right.

[779] Your camera's right there.

[780] Don't look right at it.

[781] And I'm watching, you know, an episode, and it's like, you know, Rufus just made waffles.

[782] And I'm like, whoa.

[783] The thing is, I'm the waffles.

[784] It's the waffles.

[785] It's the waffles that I'm, it's not.

[786] the beautiful women, it's, look at all that breakfast, those, those carbs, no one's having any.

[787] Why are you wearing a vest again?

[788] You really do.

[789] You really do.

[790] Oh, I watch.

[791] I watch.

[792] I got to go.

[793] I got to go.

[794] I can't eat any of this.

[795] Eat it.

[796] It's a fucking greatest breakfast.

[797] You were the only person who's talked about the breakfast on that show.

[798] I think everybody, is that, really?

[799] It was like, it was like an inside joke with us.

[800] What was you guys?

[801] But people watching probably weren't paying attention to the breakfast.

[802] No, no, no, no. Rufus waffles are like, Rufus's waffles are, as far as I'm aware, they're a thing.

[803] Yeah, I mean, I think that, I think if you went.

[804] You said fan site.

[805] No, no, I think if you went on, I'm saying if you went on a fan site or if one was to go.

[806] Go into that world.

[807] I'm sure they talk about it.

[808] Did you go on?

[809] No, I did not.

[810] It's okay if you did.

[811] Well, I didn't go on as myself.

[812] No, I'm saying that anyone who watches the show.

[813] Yeah.

[814] If you're, if you're talking to a sentient person, at some point you notice that think of the greatest brunch you've ever seen.

[815] Like you're at a rich person's wedding and they put out a brunch that costs a couple hundred thousand dollars.

[816] That is the breakfast that they have.

[817] I've watched the show.

[818] I just was paying attention to what everybody was wearing, how attractive everybody was.

[819] All I see of the amazing breakfast, the waffles.

[820] All of them.

[821] All of it.

[822] And you guys always take a little nibble.

[823] And then I'm out of here and you take off.

[824] And then you go and get a coffee someplace.

[825] I'm sorry.

[826] I took this in a weird direction.

[827] We were here to help young people understand that there are problems and their issues and that it's okay to feel awkward.

[828] And I took it to my own place, which is I want to go back in time and finish those breakfasts.

[829] We're going to live inside of a waffle nook.

[830] They were really good.

[831] And I have to say, I always wanted to eat more.

[832] Yeah, I'm sure you did.

[833] I did.

[834] I'm imagining Frank McCord.

[835] He's being like, son.

[836] Oh, you wish it had another.

[837] There's children dying.

[838] Look at his fucking waffles.

[839] Oh, your son.

[840] Oh, Penn Paggie didn't get enough.

[841] Free waffles, did he?

[842] Hey, Penn. This has been a real pleasure.

[843] A real joy.

[844] So cool talking to.

[845] And you know, we didn't even get to, we'll scratch the surface next time, but I know you're a guitar guy.

[846] I know you play a telecaster.

[847] Yeah.

[848] I'm a fender guy.

[849] I love fenders.

[850] So we got to talk about that.

[851] I would love that.

[852] You're a phenomenal.

[853] player from when I understand.

[854] No, I am not.

[855] I am not.

[856] You wouldn't say that.

[857] No, no, but I also, I know what I am, which is I am largely a self -taught hack and I don't know theory.

[858] And there's a lot that I, whenever I play with people who can really play, I feel terrible.

[859] So I'm always very open about that.

[860] But I enjoy it.

[861] Yeah, I'm very much in the same boat.

[862] All right.

[863] Well, we'll continue this on your podcast.

[864] Yeah.

[865] All right.

[866] Oh, and happy early birthday.

[867] Thank you.

[868] Birth month.

[869] Birth month.

[870] Yeah, you're going to stretch this out.

[871] A few episodes ago on the live from the Beacon Theater, Tracy Morgan show, we discussed something that we need to follow up on.

[872] Okay.

[873] And that is.

[874] Yes.

[875] Oh, my.

[876] Jupe!

[877] The Jupe scent for men.

[878] Oh, my God.

[879] Let me bring people up to speed.

[880] Please.

[881] Tracy's on the show at the Beacon Theater, Tracy Morgan, the great Tracy Morgan.

[882] And just before the show, they say Tracy's here.

[883] So I go down to say hi to him.

[884] And he gives me a big hug.

[885] And I am suddenly transported to a better world because he has this aroma.

[886] He wears, and I asked him about it, he wears a cologne.

[887] But of course, being Tracy, I just said, what are you wearing?

[888] Joop!

[889] And he's yelling, Joop!

[890] And I didn't know what he was talking about.

[891] Me either.

[892] I think I pulled the crowd.

[893] I don't think a lot of people knew what Jup was.

[894] None of us on stage did.

[895] Yeah, we didn't know on stage.

[896] I don't know about colognes where there's an exclamation point in the name.

[897] It is a red flag to me. Yeah.

[898] And also the color of color is literally a red flag because that's the color of your urine when you're dying of kidney failure.

[899] It is a cranberry blood.

[900] Yeah.

[901] You just pour that in a toilet after someone's used it and you will freak them out.

[902] Also, it just says jupe, exclamation mark, home.

[903] And there's literally not another word on the bottle like anything.

[904] Well, I was saying to Tracy, I think, you know, do you think this would up my game with this?

[905] And he was, I have to say, Tracy's a very convincing person.

[906] He's a very powerful personality.

[907] And he doesn't half recommend anything.

[908] Joop.

[909] He really, really thought my life would be enhanced if I had some jupe on me. Do you remember what else you said?

[910] You said that you would put some on, go home.

[911] not say anything and see what Liza said about it.

[912] Yes, I will do that.

[913] Yeah, so we can report back.

[914] Okay, this is interesting.

[915] My wife has been in New York City talking to lawyers for some reason.

[916] But that's not the important thing.

[917] No, no, she's been in New York, and she gets back today.

[918] So this is perfect because when I go home, I'm not going to say anything and I'm just going to see what happens.

[919] You're going to introduce her to the new Conan.

[920] Yeah, so try some on now.

[921] The juke Conan.

[922] Yeah.

[923] Try this.

[924] So, oh, it's got a little sprayer.

[925] And what do you do?

[926] Do you spray it right on?

[927] Do you want to smell it first?

[928] I think technically you're supposed to spray it and then walk into it?

[929] Let me just smell it first.

[930] That's so close.

[931] Okay.

[932] I just fired it at myself.

[933] It was backwards.

[934] I am not kidding.

[935] I just held my wrist out, held the bottle up, and then saw this shit spray into my eyes.

[936] I'm not, I wasn't trying to do a...

[937] You clearly never wore a cologne.

[938] Of course not.

[939] I've never worn a cologne.

[940] Oh.

[941] I don't know how I feel about that.

[942] What do you think?

[943] I don't need it.

[944] Well, I'm getting a could de -vegetate brain forest.

[945] I don't want to be mean, but it does smell like this motel I used to stay in with my family in Lake Tahoe.

[946] I'm not even joking.

[947] If Tracy was here, he'd probably say, I love that motel.

[948] I was there all the time.

[949] The jupe in.

[950] I used to check in.

[951] I used to roll around on the sheets.

[952] I jupe it up and roll around on the sheets.

[953] it is uh well it's it's sweet that's for sure it's got a sweetness to it whoa i'm not i'm trying to think of what notes what notes are you getting here here you try some on your wrist don't worry i'm getting like 1930s grandma yeah grandma right not yeah and i don't masculine yeah pass it around take a sway on the bottle it says and now with more grandma they just grind them up what i just say Tracy smelled really good he did and I don't know if he was wearing.

[954] He said he wore a half a bottle.

[955] Yeah, he puts a lot of it on.

[956] And I do think that's what he was wearing.

[957] He doesn't lie about jupe.

[958] Okay.

[959] All right.

[960] Maybe it smells differently.

[961] It reminds me of, you know, Old Spice was a really cheap thing, but I have a fondness for that because my grandpa and dad wore it.

[962] And I probably wouldn't balk if I had to wear that, but it's really cheap, you know?

[963] Yeah.

[964] I never put on a cologne.

[965] Never.

[966] I'm not really a clone guy either.

[967] I used to wear perfume.

[968] But I might start wearing jupe.

[969] Yeah.

[970] Now, what do you think?

[971] Do you think people would accept me if I started wearing jupe?

[972] No. Okay.

[973] I don't.

[974] I think you're not a clone guy.

[975] Hey, do you think Tracy would do an ad with me for jupe?

[976] Oh, I'm sure.

[977] Oh, my God.

[978] Wouldn't that be great?

[979] Sure you would.

[980] Me and Tracy and it's for jupe.

[981] I want to see you pouring it on yourself.

[982] You guys should come up with your own fragrance and you read it through the back and it's just Conan and Tracy Morgan for Pooge.

[983] you see it backwards yeah i think there are some people who are cologne people and you're not a cologne person no i'm not a cologne person do you go to the club a lot do you hit the clubs i've never hit the clubs yeah me yeah i mean bottle service at the club never never hit the clubs but you used to hit the clubs i did lots of cologne really yeah would you and what is that for is it to cover i wore perfume yeah but why are people why do you think are there women that like a man to wear a Yeah, I think so.

[984] I used to like nice scents on guys, you know, but it's, you know, that was a different time.

[985] That was a different son -off.

[986] Oh.

[987] You were a married mother of twin boys.

[988] Yeah, yeah.

[989] So you shouldn't be hungering for another man's scent.

[990] No, no. And also now I'm worried about wearing scents because what if the boys react weirdly to it?

[991] So I don't know.

[992] I don't need it.

[993] Okay.

[994] Well, I'm all down with, you know, it's not like I have a product right now that I'm really tethered to.

[995] Never really had one, but why not jupe?

[996] Let me ask you this.

[997] When you go home tonight, Liza will have been out of town.

[998] She's going to come home and you're going to have this really sweet perfume on you.

[999] And she's going to think, well, no, she won't.

[1000] She was not going to think that.

[1001] She is not going to think that.

[1002] She's going to think, oh, he's doing a bit for the podcast.

[1003] Yeah, exactly.

[1004] What's this podcast bit?

[1005] Liza sleeps very soundly at night, knowing that I'm not out there.

[1006] She might even just be in for a little.

[1007] I did say to her once not long ago, I said, if you did find out that I was cheating on you, isn't there some part of you that would be impressed with my time and hedging skills?

[1008] Because, you know, that's what I never have understood.

[1009] I have no desire to be that person.

[1010] I am very happy with my choice.

[1011] But I'm always, once people do that, and I always think, wait a minute, how do you keep all that shit straight?

[1012] And the energy and time.

[1013] Yeah, I got to go see, you know, Matt Gourley and Adam Sacks to talk about the, and then we're in a restaurant, you know, with Fifi.

[1014] And she's like, gee, Mr. O 'Broyan, you really think you're going to get me my own podcast?

[1015] You bet, Fifi.

[1016] I'll get you your own podcast.

[1017] How's that chicken milanais?

[1018] Oh, gee, Mr. O 'Brien, was such a sophisticate.

[1019] Wait a minute, that's the phone.

[1020] Oh, hello, Liza.

[1021] So I'm here with Eduardo.

[1022] Wait.

[1023] Did I say...

[1024] Oh, no, no. Matt and Adam died.

[1025] That's why I couldn't meet with them and didn't him with Edwardo.

[1026] I mean, I would fuck it all up.

[1027] You would.

[1028] Then I'd have to kill you.

[1029] Gee, Mr. O 'Brien, why are we killing people?

[1030] I like that that's my...

[1031] That Conan would wear a collo.

[1032] That's my mistress.

[1033] She's chomping gum.

[1034] Yeah.

[1035] She's got big high heels.

[1036] Off the bus from Kansas to get a podcast.

[1037] To get a podcast.

[1038] Gee, Mr. O 'Brien.

[1039] Yeah, the Bays' name.

[1040] Well, we'll report back on what Eliza says about your new scent.

[1041] Well, before this air, people may read about it.

[1042] Oh, yeah.

[1043] Yeah.

[1044] Conan O 'Brien shot by wife.

[1045] Not for cheating, but for wearing that scent.

[1046] No, just for wearing the scent.

[1047] Yeah, jupe.

[1048] Look for it.

[1049] Where do you look for it?

[1050] Amazon, $35 a bottle.

[1051] Is that true?

[1052] I thought it was like a right -eight scent.

[1053] I bet it is.

[1054] I think it's one of those, you know, like pharmacies.

[1055] colognes.

[1056] You know what?

[1057] I like it.

[1058] I like the way my wrist smells right now and I like the way I'm going to smell when I go home tonight and we will report back on how Conan wearing jup and not saying a word to his wife goes over.

[1059] I'd give it one more spray just to make sure it lasts.

[1060] Oh no no no I am going to you're going to dab it on.

[1061] I might take this with me. Okay yeah and and hit myself hard before I walk in the door.

[1062] Yeah.

[1063] I want it to be noticeable.

[1064] Yeah.

[1065] Okay.

[1066] And then I'll be We have to do CPR on our cats.

[1067] Okay.

[1068] $35, so you owe me $35.

[1069] Did you put it on the show card?

[1070] I don't have a show card.

[1071] Fantastic.

[1072] Just as I decreed it.

[1073] All right.

[1074] Peace out.

[1075] Two buck.

[1076] Conan O 'Brien needs a friend.

[1077] With Conan O 'Brien, Sonam of Sessian, and Matt Gourley.

[1078] Produced by me, Matt Gourley.

[1079] Executive produced by Adam Sacks, Joanna Solitaroff, and Jeff Ross at Team Coco, and Colin Anderson and Cody Fisher at Earwolf.

[1080] Theme song by the White Stripes Incidental music by Jimmy Vivino Take it away, Jimmy Supervising producer Aaron Blair Associate talent producer Jennifer Samples Engineering by Eduardo Perez Additional production support by Mars Melnick Talent booking by Paula Davis Gina Patista and Britt Con This episode was mixed and edited by me Brett Morris You can rate and review this show on Apple Podcasts and you might find your review read on a future episode Got a question for Conan?

[1081] Call the Team Coco Hotline at 323 -251 -2821 and leave a message.

[1082] It could be featured on a future episode.

[1083] Please subscribe to Conan O 'Brien needs a friend on Apple Podcasts, Stitcher, or wherever fine podcasts are downloaded.